Transcript of the Hearing 22 October 2013

           1                                       Tuesday, 22 October 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           6                  (In the presence of the jury)

           7           Who will be the first witness?

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  V48, please.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could we have V48, please, into

          10       court.

          11                           V48 (sworn)

          12                   (The witness was anonymised)

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, would you come

          14       forward, please, to the witness box and have a seat

          15       there.

          16   A.  Thank you, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then we can pick up what you have to

          18       say on the microphone in front of you.  I'll hand over

          19       to Mr Underwood who will start in the usual way.

          20                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Officer?

          22   A.  Good morning, sir.

          23   Q.  My name's Underwood and I'm counsel to the Inquest.  Can

          24       I ask you first of all to look at that sheet.  There are

          25       initials and numbers down one side and names against


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           1       them.  Look for V48, please.

           2   A.  I've got that, sir.

           3   Q.  Is that you?

           4   A.  It is, sir.

           5   Q.  Thank you very much.  I think in 2011 you were a member

           6       of CO19; is that right?

           7   A.  That's correct, sir.

           8   Q.  How long had you been a police officer by that stage?

           9   A.  17 years.

          10   Q.  How long had you been in CO19?

          11   A.  Since 2004, so seven years.

          12   Q.  Of that time, was all of it spent on TST or were you on

          13       ARVs before?

          14   A.  No, I did four years on ARVs and then did some more

          15       courses and then joined TST from there.

          16   Q.  So you had been about three years on TST?

          17   A.  Yes, approximately.

          18   Q.  I gather you were deputed to be the driver of the Alpha

          19       car, were you, on 3 and 4 August?

          20   A.  I do not think I was the driver of the Alpha car on the

          21       3rd but definitely on the 4th.

          22   Q.  Right.  It's the 4th I want to concentrate on.  Can we

          23       talk about the armament you had on that day, please;

          24       what did you have?

          25   A.  I had a Glock 17 in a pancake holster, which was on my


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           1       right hip that had two magazines of 34 -- sorry two

           2       magazines of 17 rounds.  I also had a Taser with two

           3       cartridges, which was in my raid jacket in the top

           4       left-hand breast pocket, and I had a MP5, which was

           5       loaded and made ready, but that was slipped in the boot

           6       of my car.

           7   Q.  Right.  Did it ever leave the boot?

           8   A.  No, sir.

           9   Q.  We know that you were on your way to Quicksilver when

          10       intelligence came in.  You went to Quicksilver, had

          11       a very quick brief and got on the road; is all that

          12       consistent with your memory of it?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  Right.  Let's move on then to what happened after you

          15       left Quicksilver, if we may.  What was your

          16       understanding of what you were doing as you left

          17       Quicksilver?

          18   A.  As we left Quicksilver I believe we were still at state

          19       green but shortly afterwards we went to state amber.

          20   Q.  What was your understanding of what was about to unfold?

          21   A.  At state amber we were given authority by the Silver,

          22       the TFC, that he wanted us to carry out a stop on the

          23       subject vehicle.

          24   Q.  Right.  What was the subject vehicle, to your knowledge?

          25   A.  It was a minicab, a gold minicab.


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           1   Q.  We're having some interesting debates with people about

           2       the colour of this minicab, officer.  When did you first

           3       think it was gold?

           4   A.  On the surveillance commentary, I believe it was put up

           5       as a gold minicab and, yes, that's what I've stuck to.

           6       But obviously I can see, looking at the photos that I've

           7       seen, it is actually silver, yes.

           8   Q.  Okay.  When did you first see it?

           9   A.  I first actually saw it as we were approaching

          10       Blackhorse Road train station.

          11   Q.  How far away from you was it?

          12   A.  We were a number of vehicles away from it.  It was

          13       somewhere in the region of eight to ten cars in front of

          14       us.

          15   Q.  It was your task to actually get in front of it, was it

          16       not, as the driver of the Alpha car?

          17   A.  At the stop, yes.  But to get -- the first role is

          18       obviously for the Alpha car to get the whole convoy to

          19       the subject vehicle.

          20   Q.  So first of all you had to work the convoy through the

          21       traffic, did you?

          22   A.  That's correct, yes.

          23   Q.  How did you do that?

          24   A.  When I first saw the subject vehicle?

          25   Q.  Yes.


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           1   A.  When I first saw the subject vehicle, I didn't actually

           2       make any more progress towards the vehicle, we held in

           3       traffic.  If we did, we would have had to have gone onto

           4       the offside of the road, thus we would have sort of

           5       stuck out a little bit, of four cars in a convoy on the

           6       wrong side of the road so that's why we didn't --

           7       I didn't approach it, we held back, we restrained in

           8       going towards the subject vehicle at that point.

           9   Q.  How did you progress through the traffic?

          10   A.  We did use blue lights and two tones but when we came up

          11       in line of traffic I didn't have anything on there at

          12       all.  Once the subject vehicle then turned left, we then

          13       just moved up but I didn't use any two tones or blue

          14       lights or anything like that.

          15   Q.  What was the atmosphere in the car?

          16   A.  Obviously apprehensive, we were about to do a stop on

          17       a vehicle.  There was a lot of talk between ourselves as

          18       to how we were going to approach the vehicle, when is

          19       the best time, et cetera, et cetera.  But, no, it was

          20       good.

          21   Q.  How did you regard the driver of the minicab?  Was he

          22       a threat or an innocent member of the public or what, as

          23       far as you were concerned?

          24   A.  As far as I was concerned, he was not a threat, he was

          25       a member of the public just doing his job.


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           1   Q.  Okay.  Let's move to the point where red is called.  How

           2       far away from the minicab were you then?

           3   A.  I believe we were in Forest Road, so we were

           4       approximately about five cars away from the subject

           5       vehicle.

           6   Q.  Right.  Did there come a point when traffic between you

           7       and the subject vehicle cleared?

           8   A.  Yes.  I believe it was two surveillance cars, they

           9       actually moved out of our way and then we came right up

          10       behind the BMW X5, which was directly behind the subject

          11       vehicle.

          12   Q.  Right.  We've heard that turned into Jarrow Road; is

          13       that right?

          14   A.  Yes, yes, sir.

          15   Q.  Was strike called immediately you were directly behind

          16       the minicab?

          17   A.  Yes.  As soon as the BMW turned left into Jarrow Road,

          18       it was -- "Strike, strike, strike" was called.

          19   Q.  Now, as far as you're concerned, how did the stop go?

          20   A.  As far as I'm concerned, the stop went in as we had been

          21       trained to do, sir, and it was a good stop.  It went

          22       according to how we do it in training.

          23   Q.  Did you have to use sirens or blue lights?

          24   A.  No, I didn't.

          25   Q.  Did you hear any sirens?


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           1   A.  I don't recall hearing any, no.

           2   Q.  Then once you had stopped, you stopped more or less

           3       diagonally across the front, did you, of the minicab?

           4   A.  That's correct, sir.

           5   Q.  Once you had done that, what did you have to do before

           6       you got out of the car?

           7   A.  I have to make sure that the subject vehicle is actually

           8       contained within the three cars, then obviously make

           9       sure that my car is not going to go anywhere, applying

          10       the hand brake, et cetera, and then I put my plot cap on

          11       and then I exited the vehicle.

          12   Q.  Right.  Where did you go when you got out?

          13   A.  I got out the car and I turned right, as in to go

          14       towards the back of my car.

          15   Q.  On the offside?

          16   A.  On the offside of the vehicle, yes, and then I turned

          17       right to go behind my car in between my car and the

          18       Bravo car.

          19   Q.  Can we have a look at a plan.  We've got CE266, if you

          20       have a hard copy, fine, but it'll come up on the screen

          21       in front of you there.  Of course, by the time the plans

          22       were drawn, the Alpha car had been moved away.

          23   A.  That's correct, yes.

          24   Q.  You drew this plan, did you?

          25   A.  I marked the "A" and the "B", yes, sir.


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           1   Q.  What does "A" represent; can you recall?

           2   A.  I believe "A" was where I heard the shots fired.

           3   Q.  So you got to a point somewhere around where "A" is

           4       marked, did you?

           5   A.  That's correct, sir.

           6   Q.  Roughly towards the back of your car?

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   Q.  What could you see from there or what did you see from

           9       there?

          10   A.  I saw -- as I turned right and obviously headed towards

          11       the minicab, I could see the driver in the minicab and

          12       I was aware in my peripheral vision of W42 exiting the

          13       Alpha car from the nearside.

          14   Q.  So somewhere on the kerbside of the minicab or somewhere

          15       below where "A" is?

          16   A.  Yes, sir, approximately there.

          17   Q.  Right.  Could you see anybody else, any other officers

          18       out?

          19   A.  Not when I was in box A, no.

          20   Q.  You were telling us about shots; what did you hear?

          21   A.  I heard two shots that I believed were gun fire.

          22   Q.  Again, no doubt you have been reading transcripts, have

          23       you, of the evidence that's been given?

          24   A.  Yes, sir.

          25   Q.  You'll be aware that people have been taken to their


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           1       notebooks and distinctions, if any, have been drawn

           2       between what they put in their notebooks and what they

           3       put in the statements.  Can we look at yours, please, so

           4       we can do that.  It starts at CD57, and again, if you

           5       have it there, great, but otherwise it will come up on

           6       the screen.

           7           If we look at CD60, page 33 of your book, it deals

           8       with the fact you were in the Alpha car, which was

           9       silver, and then if we go over to page 61, if we can

          10       have that, it deals with the armament first of all then

          11       we pick up "gold people carrier" about halfway down and

          12       then:

          13           "An armed intervention was carried out in Ferry

          14       Lane ..."

          15           It gives more details:

          16           "... at 1813.  I deployed from my vehicle.  I was

          17       aware that shots had been fired."

          18           Again, no mention of number of shots there.  At the

          19       time you made the notebook entry, later on the 4th, did

          20       you know how many shots had been fired?

          21   A.  I believe at the time, yes, I did know, but it said --

          22       the initial statement is a sort of brief facts of what

          23       actually happened on the night.  This was a very --

          24       a traumatic situation, someone has actually lost their

          25       life, so it was to give a period for us of 48 hours to


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           1       recollect our thoughts and give a fuller statement

           2       48 hours later.

           3   Q.  It's not a criticism if so, but are you trained not to

           4       put the number of shots in, in your first account?

           5   A.  We're trained -- we have a PIP input and training.

           6       It's -- you're taught to actually not give -- to be --

           7       to provide brief account of what actually happened and

           8       then allow us 48 hours.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  "PIP input" means post-incident

          10       procedure?

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Anything in that which says you

          13       should not put the number of shots?

          14   A.  No, sir.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  The other thing, again there's a commonality

          16       between people in the notebook entry and I just ask for

          17       your comments on it: by the time you made your notebook

          18       you pinned down 1813 for the time of the stop; did you

          19       see that?

          20   A.  On the front?

          21   Q.  I am not criticising that.  It's the page we have just

          22       looked at.

          23   A.  Yes, the front page, sir.

          24   Q.  On our page 61, you say:

          25           "An armed intervention was carried out in Ferry


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           1       Lane ..."

           2           It gives the details of it:

           3           "... at 1813 hours."

           4           Again, was there any discussion about that time or

           5       did you all get 1813 independently?

           6   A.  No.  There wasn't any discussion.  The only thing

           7       I clarified was where the stop was actually conducted.

           8       Being the driver, I had no idea where we were and we

           9       just clarified what time the stop was actually put in.

          10   Q.  Let's go back to the events then, please.  You hear two

          11       shots.  Was it a double tap or was there a gap between

          12       them?

          13   A.  No, there was a distinctive gap between them.

          14   Q.  What did you do?

          15   A.  I ran onto the pavement and then turned left, so on the

          16       nearside of the minicab, on the footway, and headed

          17       towards the back.

          18   Q.  Right.  What did you see?

          19   A.  I saw Mr Duggan on the floor and he was being restrained

          20       by W70.

          21   Q.  Can we go back to your plan, CE266.  Whereabouts on

          22       that, as best you can do now, was Mr Duggan?

          23   A.  In -- somewhere in the box B.

          24   Q.  You say he was on the ground.  Was he face down, back

          25       down, side down, what?


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           1   A.  I believe he was on his side with his face down.

           2   Q.  Okay.  What was W70 doing?

           3   A.  He had him in an arm lock.

           4   Q.  Did you see W42 between the time when you saw him out of

           5       peripheral vision and that point?

           6   A.  No, sir.

           7   Q.  If you had walked past him between catching him in your

           8       peripheral vision and that stage, would you have noticed

           9       it?

          10   A.  I was aware he was on the pavement and obviously heading

          11       towards my direction but I wasn't actually looking that

          12       way, I was looking towards the back of the cab.

          13   Q.  Did you become aware that W42 had been shot?

          14   A.  Yes, I actually --

          15   Q.  Sorry, go on.

          16   A.  I actually heard -- apologies -- I actually heard him

          17       say "I think I've been hit".

          18   Q.  Where was he in relation to you when he did that?

          19       Sorry, go back to the plan.

          20   A.  If I was on the pavement, say by the bonnet of the

          21       minicab and I was looking towards box B, he would have

          22       been behind me.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Behind you being on the pavement

          24       there?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.  Somewhere in sort of parallel with box A but


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           1       on the pavement.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  So let's get this clear.  When you heard the

           3       shots you were still on the road; is that right?

           4   A.  That's correct, sir.

           5   Q.  You got onto the pavement and saw Mr Duggan on the

           6       ground --

           7   A.  That's correct.

           8   Q.  -- and it was after that that W42, behind you, said he

           9       thought he had been shot; is that fair?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  What did you do?

          12   A.  I went to assist W70.  We rolled Mr Duggan onto his back

          13       and we searched for any weapons or firearms.  Anything

          14       that could cause myself or my colleagues any danger.

          15   Q.  Was that an instinct reaction or did you have reason to

          16       believe he had a gun thereabouts?

          17   A.  Whenever we're dealing with a casualty using the

          18       mnemonic "Dr's ABC" and the first part of the "D" is

          19       danger so you make sure there's nothing that can cause

          20       you any danger.  There are other things as well,

          21       electricity cables that you could convert -- to this

          22       actual incident that didn't obviously --

          23   Q.  Did you get involved in carrying out first aid then?

          24   A.  Yes, I did.

          25   Q.  What did you do?


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           1   A.  We cut off his top, I noticed there was a puncture wound

           2       on the right side of his chest so I used an Asherman to

           3       plug that.  I also initially put on O2 with a face mask

           4       and then V53 came in and took over.

           5   Q.  Can you give us any impression of how long you were

           6       carrying out first aid before V53 came on?

           7   A.  It was a very, very short period of time.

           8   Q.  Did you carry on with the first aid until the paramedics

           9       arrived or did you --

          10   A.  No, that's it, I stayed assisting V53 with first aid

          11       until they arrived.

          12   Q.  Did you then go back to the police station shortly after

          13       that?

          14   A.  Yes, we did.

          15   Q.  You got involved in the post-incident management

          16       process, did you?

          17   A.  That's correct.

          18   Q.  You will be aware, again, from reading the transcripts,

          19       that one of the things I'm asking officers is whether

          20       they talked about this incident at all.  So, having said

          21       that, who did you go back with?

          22   A.  I went back with W39, Q63 and R39, I think it was.

          23   Q.  Was there no discussion whatever about the incident?

          24   A.  About the actual incident?

          25   Q.  Yes.


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           1   A.  No, sir.  It was just the welfare of officers and that

           2       kind of talk.  There was nothing to do with the

           3       incident, no, sir.

           4   Q.  Did you know who shot W42?

           5   A.  I think I had an idea in my mind who had but I couldn't

           6       be certain then who it actually was, no.

           7   Q.  Did you not ask anybody else's opinion about that?

           8   A.  No, sir.

           9   Q.  You told the jury earlier on that you had to get from

          10       somebody where it was the stop when happened; who told

          11       you that?

          12   A.  I think the actual -- the stop, I cannot actually say who it

          13       came from.  It could have come from V59 or it could have

          14       come from W42.  But I can't say for sure.

          15   Q.  When you did learn that, did you learn it at the scene

          16       or in the car or when you got back to Leman Street; can

          17       you recall?

          18   A.  I believe it was back at Leman Street.

          19   Q.  This is your evidence, is it, that the only discussion

          20       you had with anybody about this was about the welfare of

          21       officers and, when you got back to Leman Street, the

          22       placement of the stop; is that it?

          23   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, if you wait there,

          25       please.


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           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           2           Yes, Mr Thomas?

           3                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           4   MR THOMAS:  Good morning.

           5   A.  Good morning, sir.

           6   Q.  I represent the loved ones of Mark Duggan.

           7   A.  Sir.

           8   Q.  Can I just clarify just one or two aspects of your

           9       evidence first off?  Can we start with the evidence you

          10       have just given to Mr Underwood, who sits in front of

          11       me.

          12           You've indicated that there was very little

          13       discussion between you and your colleagues in relation

          14       to your first account; is that correct?

          15   A.  There was no discussion apart from actually just

          16       clarifying where the stop was and the time.

          17   Q.  Which time?

          18   A.  The time of when the stop actually took place.

          19   Q.  If this was an initial account, why was it important to

          20       get the time of the stop right?  Because you have

          21       already indicated that this is an initial account, we

          22       can wait until matters are -- we have our rest period

          23       and all the rest of it.  Why was that detail important?

          24   A.  I couldn't really say, sir, it's just -- we always like

          25       to know what time the -- what time the stop took place,


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           1       where it took place and obviously the registration

           2       number of the vehicle.

           3   Q.  Forgive me but, as I have understood your account, you

           4       had a pretty good idea as to how many shots you heard on

           5       the night; is that right?

           6   A.  Sir.

           7   Q.  In fact, in your statement that you make on the 7th,

           8       your detailed account, you said you heard two

           9       distinctive shots; is that right?

          10   A.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  I'm just wondering, if there was no discussion between

          12       you -- and there's nothing stopping you or your

          13       colleagues from putting in the number of shots, is

          14       there?

          15   A.  No, sir.

          16   Q.  No.  May I suggest there was discussion between you and

          17       your colleagues?

          18   A.  No, there wasn't, sir.

          19   Q.  Help me with this: you said you didn't know who had

          20       fired the shots at the scene.

          21   A.  That's correct, sir.

          22   Q.  You said you think you had an idea but you didn't know.

          23   A.  That's correct.

          24   Q.  At what point did you know who had fired the shots on --

          25       was it on the 4th?


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           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  When on the 4th?

           3   A.  Some time in the evening.

           4   Q.  You certainly knew, would this be right, by the time you

           5       came to write your initial account?

           6   A.  I would say so, yes.

           7   Q.  Yes.  Because the one officer out of the team who was

           8       not with you when you wrote your initial account was the

           9       shooter.

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  Yes.  So can I put this to you and you tell me if this

          12       is right or this is wrong or somewhere in the middle.

          13       Does it come to this: by the time you and your

          14       colleagues sat down to write your notes, the one person

          15       who wasn't present was the shooter, correct?

          16   A.  That's correct.

          17   Q.  Does this follow: was that the reason why there was

          18       a reluctance by the rest of you not to put in the number

          19       of shots because you didn't know what he was going to

          20       say?

          21   A.  No, that's not correct, sir.

          22   Q.  By the time the 7th came along, you all knew how many

          23       shots had been discharged from his weapon, because they

          24       had been counted and you knew what he was saying by

          25       then, and that's why you and your colleagues all put in


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           1       "two shots"; is that closer to the truth?

           2   A.  No, sir, that's not the truth at all.

           3   Q.  Let me move on.  Can I come back -- again a point

           4       Mr Underwood has touched upon but I just want to explore

           5       in a little bit more detail, and this is in relation to

           6       the colour of the minivan.

           7           You would accept, wouldn't you -- and we can call up

           8       a photograph if necessary -- but there can be no doubt

           9       that the minivan is silver; would you agree?

          10   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

          11   Q.  Let's face this: you and your colleagues did the stop in

          12       the middle of summer, it was August, it was 6 o'clock,

          13       it was in daylight and we've seen the footage, and I'm

          14       sure you've seen some of the footage showing the stop

          15       that was in daylight.

          16   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  How was it that you've all got the colour wrong?

          18   A.  I couldn't say that, sir, I couldn't answer that.

          19   Q.  May I suggest you're not being quite candid with the

          20       jury in relation to the discussions that were taking

          21       place between you and your colleagues?

          22   A.  I am, sir.  There was no discussion.

          23   MR STERN:  Sorry to interrupt, but I do want to, as it were,

          24       ensure that an unfair point is not being taken here.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.


                                            19
 

 

 


           1   MR STERN:  Sir, the position is that we heard from a number

           2       of witnesses who gave evidence, and indeed have set out

           3       in their statements, that the vehicle was gold.  I'm

           4       talking about officers who are not firearms officers:

           5       ZZ50 says it was a gold vehicle that was stopped; ZZ63

           6       said it was a gold coloured minicab; ZZ37 called it

           7       beige -- I am just dealing with the ones who have given

           8       evidence so far -- ZZ46, his day book says bronze; ZZ75

           9       called it bronze; and V22, although it says in his

          10       statement "bronze", he didn't actually mention that and

          11       he wasn't asked any questions.

          12           So none of the surveillance officers have been asked

          13       questions about this, but this officer has said the

          14       intelligence he had was that it was a gold vehicle, and

          15       indeed when one looks at the evidence from the

          16       surveillance officers, that is what they have put in

          17       their statements, and indeed repeated in evidence.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I hear that.  We've seen already in

          19       this matter the fact that, on the flip chart, it is

          20       written up "gold".

          21   MR STERN:  Yes.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So someone has got it wrong, writes

          23       up "gold", and everybody then follows suit in their

          24       statements that's really how it's all happened and we

          25       are not really worried about the colour, we are worried


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       about the process.  I think that's really the point for

           2       these questions and it's showing that here are witnesses

           3       who read the flip chart and then use -- substitute

           4       perhaps --

           5   MR STERN:  It's a perfectly fair question, sir, I am not

           6       objecting to the question but it's the interpretation on

           7       it that one has to be careful of bearing in mind the

           8       other evidence we have heard.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Still a bit more evidence to go, we

          10       may have some more colours.  All right, we'll see how it

          11       goes.

          12           All right then, Mr Thomas.  Thank you.

          13   MR THOMAS:  I accept everything my learned friend has just

          14       put to you.

          15   A.  Sorry, sir, I cannot hear you.

          16   Q.  That's because I switched off my mic, I shall switch it

          17       back on again.

          18           I accept everything that my learned friend has just

          19       put to you but the point that I am making --

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I don't think he put anything to

          21       him, actually, he put it all to me.  But anyway, it's

          22       a way of making a speech but not really making a speech.

          23   MR THOMAS:  The point is this: you and your colleagues are

          24       all police officers of many years' standing, yes?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            21
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Certainly you, you have 17 years standing at the time of

           2       this incident.

           3   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

           4   Q.  You know that observations are important, particularly

           5       in relation to an incident, correct?

           6   A.  That's correct.

           7   Q.  You know that when it comes to the making up of your

           8       note -- you say that you took the time to think about

           9       the detail by the time you made your statement on the

          10       7 August and are you saying this is one detail you just

          11       didn't think about from your observations?

          12   A.  Which observations are you talking about, sir?

          13   Q.  The observations in relation to the vehicle that you

          14       were following, yes?  Because you were following the

          15       minicab for some time --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- correct?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  The vehicle you put in the hard stop on and you were the

          20       lead vehicle, correct?

          21   A.  That's correct.

          22   Q.  The vehicle that you ran around to get to where

          23       Mr Duggan was.  So those observations, those are the

          24       observations I'm referring to.

          25   A.  Sir, when the commentary was coming over by the


                                            22
 

 

 


           1       surveillance officers it was given "gold" and that's

           2       what's actually stuck in my mind.

           3   Q.  I'm asking you then, you were told "gold", did your

           4       observations just switch off?

           5   A.  I didn't concentrate too much on the minicab.  Once --

           6   Q.  Didn't you think -- sorry, forgive me.

           7   A.  Once the stop had gone in, my main priority was giving

           8       first aid to Mr Duggan.

           9   Q.  I understand that.  The point that I'm making is you

          10       were told earlier on that it was a gold car, a gold

          11       minicab, you were obviously following a silver minicab;

          12       did you not think to yourself "Hang on a second, am

          13       I following the right car?"

          14   A.  We confirmed that it was the correct car by the index.

          15   Q.  I'm going to move on.  Can I take you to the actual

          16       incident itself when you, in your Alpha vehicle, pull

          17       in, strike is called, Mr Duggan's vehicle, the minicab,

          18       is boxed in and you get out of your vehicle and are

          19       making your way round.

          20           Help me with this: did you know, when you heard the

          21       two distinctive shots, did you know who was firing at

          22       who?

          23   A.  No, sir.

          24   Q.  Would this be fair: you knew you were stopping a man who

          25       was said to be in possession of a firearm, correct?


                                            23
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  So there was always the possibility that Mr Duggan --

           3       I'm going to use his name -- was the person who had been

           4       firing the shots, correct?

           5   A.  That's a possibility, yes.

           6   Q.  But, as a firearms officer, when you heard the shots,

           7       did that go through your mind?

           8   A.  Sorry, did what go through my mind, sir?

           9   Q.  Picture yourself back at the scene.  You have just come

          10       out of the Alpha car, you have run round to the position

          11       that you told us you got to when you first heard shots.

          12       You have just told us you didn't know who was firing at

          13       who but you knew it was the distinctive sound of

          14       gunshots.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Right.  My question is: did it go through your mind at

          17       that stage that it may have been Duggan, the man that

          18       you were chasing, who was discharging the shots at

          19       officers?

          20   A.  It could have been, yes.

          21   Q.  Right.  What did you do?  Did you duck, did you take

          22       cover?

          23   A.  No, I ran round to the back of the minicab.

          24   Q.  Let me get this straight: you didn't know where the

          25       shots were coming from, correct?


                                            24
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  The shots could have been aimed at you, correct?

           3   A.  Could have been but --

           4   Q.  You took no cover?

           5   A.  I ran round because the shots came from the pavement

           6       side, so I ran round to support my officers.

           7   Q.  No, I understand that.  But what I'm asking you is you

           8       hear shots, you don't know -- if I have understood you

           9       correctly, you don't know whether the shots are being

          10       aimed at you or your colleagues.  You are in the open

          11       now, correct?  Is that right, you are in the open now,

          12       when you come round from your car?

          13   A.  I'm out of my vehicle, yes.  But there was some

          14       ballistic cover, say, from the minicab but that wasn't

          15       my concern then.  My concern was to get round there to

          16       see if any one of my colleagues needed support.

          17   Q.  May I suggest the reason why you don't duck is because

          18       it was perfectly clear to you that the man that you were

          19       surveying -- it was clear that no shots were coming from

          20       his direction.  That's why you don't duck.

          21   A.  It's not why I don't duck, I actually made my way round

          22       there to see if any of my colleagues needed assistance

          23       and they did.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you draw your Glock?

          25   A.  Not at that stage, no.  No, sir.


                                            25
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  Why not?

           2   A.  By the time I got to the pavement, held on the pavement,

           3       looked left down the nearside of the cab, I could see

           4       that Mr Duggan was on the floor and there was no need to

           5       draw my firearm.  There was no more of a threat there.

           6   Q.  There was no suggestion at all, was there, from anybody

           7       in the immediate vicinity of Mr Duggan, "Watch out, he's

           8       got a gun" or anything like that; there was nothing like

           9       that, was there?

          10   A.  No.  All we did was -- sorry, all myself and W70 did was

          11       run through the "Dr's ABC" rendering first aid to

          12       Mr Duggan.

          13   Q.  I appreciate that.  But I'm breaking it up before we get

          14       to the first aid, if I may.

          15           There was no indication from any officer there that

          16       you heard that this is a man who had a gun.

          17   A.  Not when I was on the pavement, no.

          18   Q.  No warning -- that is correct, there was no warning?

          19   A.  Once I got onto the pavement, no.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Beforehand, was anything being

          21       shouted by anybody?

          22   A.  I can't recall anything.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You cannot recall anything?

          24   A.  I'm sure things were being shouted but I cannot recall.

          25   MR THOMAS:  This much is clear: the one thing -- sorry, step


                                            26
 

 

 


           1       back, forgive me.

           2           You said that, as you were making your way around,

           3       there came a point when you could see Mr Duggan; is that

           4       right?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  Can we just explore that?  Can we put up the plan again,

           7       please, thank you.  Have a look at it, please, Officer.

           8       Can you see -- if Mr Scott would be so kind as to wiggle

           9       the mouse so we can all see the mouse on the screen; can

          10       you see the mouse?

          11   A.  I can, sir.

          12   Q.  Can you just help us: if you stand up and just point to

          13       the larger screen where you were standing, and Mr Scott

          14       can put the mouse there, when you first saw Mr Duggan.

          15   A.  (Indicates) Roughly about there.

          16   Q.  Right.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where the hand is now?

          18   MR THOMAS:  Where the mouse is now?

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  Wiggle the mouse so everybody can see.

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  There?

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  Just so we are clear on this: this is before you hear

          25       the shots?


                                            27
 

 

 


           1   A.  (Pause)

           2           No, sir.

           3   Q.  Are you saying that before the shots you don't see

           4       Mr Duggan?

           5   A.  That's correct, sir.

           6   Q.  All right.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you hear the shots, you are in

           8       A?

           9   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.  The first time -- sorry,

          10       I thought the question was the first time I actually saw

          11       Mr Duggan, that's when -- sorry, it's gone.  That's

          12       where I was, where he was wiggling the mouse.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You heard the shots when you were in

          14       A, then you come across to the pavement where that was

          15       just indicated on the plan and that's the first sight

          16       you have of Mr Duggan on the ground?

          17   A.  That's correct, sir.

          18   MR THOMAS:  Okay.  I think that's going back up and we can

          19       see it's been marked now; is that correct?

          20   A.  That's correct.  That's the first time I saw Mr Duggan.

          21   Q.  Just help us with this: where was Mr Duggan?

          22   A.  He was somewhere in box B.

          23   Q.  In the position you have already told us about?

          24   A.  That's correct, sir.

          25   Q.  So you go over to Mr Duggan; was Mark moving around on


                                            28
 

 

 


           1       the ground?

           2   A.  No, he wasn't.

           3   Q.  Just help us because you told us he had to be restrained

           4       in an arm lock.  Before you get to him, because -- would

           5       I be right in thinking you would approach the man

           6       cautiously?

           7   A.  Somewhat cautiously, yes.

           8   Q.  Can we be clear on this because the reason why I suggest

           9       would you approach the man cautiously, he's just been

          10       shot so you must be thinking, may I suggest, that he

          11       must have been shot for a reason.

          12   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          13   Q.  One of the reasons why firearms officers are trained to

          14       shoot is if they see a threat, correct?

          15   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          16   Q.  So this is going through your mind, this is your mental

          17       process.  So the threat you must have in mind, because

          18       of the intelligence that you had been provided with

          19       earlier on, is maybe he's been shot because he's got

          20       a weapon, a gun; would that be fair?

          21   A.  That's correct, yes.

          22   Q.  So coming back to my question, you would approach him

          23       cautiously?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  As you approach him cautiously, what's Mr Duggan doing


                                            29
 

 

 


           1       on the ground?

           2   A.  He was just laying there being restrained by my

           3       colleague.

           4   Q.  Was he struggling with your colleague?

           5   A.  No.

           6   Q.  Why was it necessary to restrain the man who had been

           7       obviously injured in an arm lock?

           8   A.  At that stage I didn't actually know that he'd been

           9       injured.  As to why W70 restrained him, I couldn't tell

          10       you.

          11   Q.  I shall ask him that.  Let's move on.

          12           In any event, you said that you do the "ABC" and

          13       there's a D, "danger", yes?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  So would I be right in thinking that the "danger" that

          16       you would do would be to scan the immediate vicinity

          17       around Mr Duggan for any weapons?

          18   A.  That's correct, yes, sir.

          19   Q.  V48, tell us, this is a man who's been shot, the mental

          20       thoughts are going through your head "Well, he must have

          21       posed a threat" -- because by this time you can see that

          22       he's got an entry wound, correct, when you're assisting

          23       him?

          24   A.  Yes, once I cut the t-shirt off, yes.

          25   Q.  So it must, may I suggest -- you correct me if I am


                                            30
 

 

 


           1       wrong -- it must be going through your mind "Where's the

           2       gun, where's the weapon?"  Did you see one?

           3   A.  I was questioning that, yes, to myself.  I couldn't see

           4       any weapon or any firearm in the vicinity of where

           5       Mr Duggan was.

           6   Q.  Because the reality is there was no weapon in the

           7       immediate vicinity of Mr Duggan, was there, where you

           8       were giving him first aid?

           9   A.  When I was giving him first aid, no, I could not see any

          10       firearm in the vicinity.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  From the answer you have just given,

          12       were you actually looking and scanning the area for

          13       weapons before you got to him, almost straightaway, as

          14       you saw him on the ground, you're looking around?

          15   A.  It happened so quick, sir, that literally -- as soon as

          16       I got onto the pavement it happened so quick that

          17       I literally just went straight towards him and I was

          18       focused on him and, as soon as I got there, myself and

          19       W70 rolled him onto his back and then we began the first

          20       aid after making sure that there was no immediate danger

          21       to ourselves or our colleagues.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay, thank you.

          23   MR THOMAS:  But it would be -- would this be right, just

          24       following on from the learned Coroner's question, it

          25       would be right that part of your training, that would be


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       sort of an automatic thing that you would do: you would

           2       look up to see if there was a threat nearby?

           3   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           4   Q.  There was none?

           5   A.  There was none, no, when I approached him.

           6   Q.  Let's be clear on this.  You know the point -- or just

           7       before the point where you get to the point that you've

           8       marked on the plan, or Mr Scott has marked on the

           9       plan -- it's back up on the screen -- so there you are,

          10       making your way just before the shots, you get to that

          11       point and that's where you see Mr Duggan.  You don't see

          12       anything at the time of the shots -- so at the time of

          13       the shots, okay, are you with me?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  You don't see anything fly in the air, do you, go

          16       overhead?

          17   A.  No, sir.

          18   Q.  In other words, just to make the point, you don't see

          19       a weapon being thrown, do you, even though you're

          20       looking in that general area?

          21   A.  No, I don't see anything like that, no, sir.

          22   Q.  Let me move on.  The one thing we can agree on is this:

          23       by the time you come to make your second statement --

          24       this is the statement on 7 August -- you know that

          25       detail is important; would that be fair?


                                            32
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  In fact, you do put in a lot of detail, so you mention

           3       for the first time two shots, and we've already been

           4       over that, and you go into, in considerable detail, the

           5       events that took place dealing with your involvement,

           6       correct?

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   Q.  You even -- I think you said earlier, in answer to

           9       a question from my learned friend Mr Underwood, that you

          10       were with Mark from the moment that you got there and

          11       you, you know, assisted with the first aid --

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  -- until the ambulance, the paramedics, arrived and they

          14       took over; did I understand that correctly?

          15   A.  That's correct, yes.

          16   Q.  You were very much trying to assist with your statement

          17       exactly what happened during that period of time with

          18       the detail you put in; is that right?

          19   A.  Sorry, sir, say that again?

          20   Q.  The statement that you made on 7 August, you deal with

          21       that period of time, don't you, when you are doing the

          22       first aid?

          23   A.  It's my recollection of what actually happened, yes.

          24   Q.  It must be your -- I'm only talking about your witness

          25       statement.  But your witness statement goes into


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       considerable detail as to what you recollect during that

           2       period when you were giving first aid, doesn't it?

           3   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           4   Q.  Can we just call up, please, page -- V48's witness

           5       statement and it's, I believe, page 197.  It starts at

           6       page -- I think it starts at page 195, page 3.

           7           Can we go to the second big paragraph on that page,

           8       which begins "I then applied the handbrake"; do you see

           9       that?

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's a foot peddle handbrake, is it,

          11       you don't actually pull it on?

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   MR THOMAS:  Can we go six lines down from the top of that

          14       paragraph.  It then says:

          15           "I then saw the subject laying face down on the

          16       floor."

          17           Do you see that on the screen?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Can you follow it, I am going to read it out:

          20           "I then saw the subject laying face down on the

          21       floor and W70 was standing over him and his right arm

          22       was in an arm lock.  I then heard W42 say 'I think I've

          23       been hit'.  Q63 and W39 then rendered first aid to W42.

          24       With W70 we rolled the subject onto his back.  We

          25       started looking for a firearm which could have been


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       a danger to ourselves."

           2           Just let's pause there.  So if there was any doubt

           3       as to whether you were looking for a firearm, it's

           4       pretty clear that this is something not only that your

           5       training would have told you to do but you actually did

           6       on the day; do you see that?

           7   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           8   Q.  Does that refresh your memory now?

           9   A.  Yes, we were looking for firearms and anything else that

          10       could have been a danger to ourselves.

          11   Q.  Then you say this:

          12           "He was not moving ..."

          13           This is Mr Duggan, correct?

          14   A.  That's correct, yes.

          15   Q.  "... and he did not make any responses."

          16           Is that correct?

          17   A.  That's correct.

          18   Q.  "I shouted 'medic' and V59 brought over a medic pack."

          19           Is that the pack that looks a bit like a rucksack?

          20   A.  Yes it is, yes.

          21   Q.  Who do you say brought that over?

          22   A.  V59.

          23   Q.  Let me read on -- sorry, pause there.  This is

          24       something -- this is detail, three days after the

          25       incident, that you remember and you're putting into your


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       witness statement, because you say this is what

           2       happened, correct?

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  Let me read on:

           5           "I opened the pack up and placed oxygen on him.  We

           6       then started our primary survey by cutting off his

           7       t-shirt, and I could see a puncture wound on his right

           8       side of his chest, which was plugged with an Asherman."

           9           Yes?

          10   A.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  "I had tilted his head back to make sure his airway was

          12       open.  V53 then came over and took control as he was the

          13       medic on the team.  It was then that V53 said to start

          14       CPR.  I took the oxygen mask off and placed a face mask

          15       on him and the pair of us carried out CPR until the

          16       arrival of the paramedics."

          17           Yes?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Let's just go through that, just very quickly.  The one

          20       thing that you give a lot of detail is who was assisting

          21       you, how they were assisting you and what they did and

          22       what you did for Mr Duggan; is that right?

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  Is this account -- in relation to the first aid and the

          25       assistance given to Mr Duggan, is it correct?


                                            36
 

 

 


           1   A.  Sorry, I don't follow the question.  Sorry, sir.

           2   Q.  Is the account that you've put in your statement, with

           3       a witness statement of truth, on the first page -- do

           4       I need to take you to it?

           5   A.  No, it's fine, sir.

           6   Q.  Is the account that I just read out, in relation to the

           7       assistance given to Mr Duggan, who was doing what in

           8       relation to Mr Duggan at this point in time, is it true?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Do you want to add anything to it?

          11   A.  No, sir.

          12   Q.  Because you're happy with it?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  So the one thing we can agree on, during the point of

          15       time when you first lay hands on Mr Duggan to give him

          16       assistance until when the paramedics arrive, Q63 is not

          17       involved, is he -- is he?

          18   A.  He may have been around, yes.

          19   Q.  He may have been around but he's not involved, is he?

          20   A.  Not doing direct first aid to Mr Duggan.

          21   Q.  He's not doing anything to Mr Duggan.

          22   A.  No, sir.

          23   Q.  He's helping your colleague who had been shot, isn't he?

          24   A.  Yes, he is.

          25   MR THOMAS:  Thank you, that's all I ask you.


                                            37
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's see.  Who wants to go next.

           2       I've got Ms Le Fevre.

           3   MS LE FEVRE:  No questions, thank you, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then I've got Mr Butt.

           5   MR BUTT:  No, thank you.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

           7   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So back to you, Mr Stern?

           9                      Questions by MR STERN

          10   MR STERN:  Thank you, sir, I just have a few.

          11           First of all, as I understand it, just so we're

          12       absolutely clear about this, as you get round the front

          13       of the minicab, that is the first time that you see

          14       Mark Duggan?

          15   A.  That's correct, yes.

          16   Q.  At that point, he is on the ground with W70?

          17   A.  That's correct.

          18   Q.  I think from the passage that was just read out by my

          19       learned friend, just a moment or two ago, to you, that

          20       the -- he was rolled over, or put on his side, I think,

          21       in order to check whether there were any firearms

          22       around.

          23   A.  No, he was initially on his side, we rolled him onto his

          24       back.

          25   Q.  I see.  So he was on his side and you rolled him onto


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       his back to see whether there were any firearms that may

           2       have been behind him or to the side of him?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  Then he remained in that position until the HEMS

           5       arrived; is that right?

           6   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

           7   Q.  I don't want any detail, or too much detail, but you and

           8       V53 were carrying out CPR --

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  -- in the position that we have seen on the video that

          11       was taken by Q63; have you seen that?

          12   A.  Yes, I have.  Yes, that's correct.

          13   Q.  Is that the position where it was being carried out?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  V53, as I think we can see in that film and indeed in

          16       photographs, is carrying out chest compressions as part

          17       of the CPR.

          18   A.  That's correct.

          19   Q.  What was your role?

          20   A.  My role was to do the breaths into his chest.

          21   Q.  How long did you carry that out for?

          22   A.  I believe it was for approximately 15 minutes.

          23   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          24               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just a little bit earlier in the


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       account, you get out of your car, very speedily, do you

           2       not?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think somewhere -- we don't need

           5       to look at it, but in another statement you say:

           6           "As I got out of my car, I was aware of W42 exiting

           7       the Alpha vehicle."

           8           So you and he got out almost together?

           9   A.  Near as damn it, yes, sir.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  As you got out you turned to your

          11       right, came around the back of your vehicle looking

          12       across towards the taxi?

          13   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At that stage, you didn't see anyone

          15       over the taxi line who had got out of the taxi, ie

          16       Mr Duggan?

          17   A.  No, sir.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It was just you and W42?

          19   A.  Yes, that's all I saw, sir, and the cab driver.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The cab driver was --

          21   A.  Still in the cab, yes, but I didn't see anyone else.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No heads above the level of the cab?

          23   A.  No, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.  All right.  That's all

          25       I wanted to confirm.


                                            40
 

 

 


           1           Mr Underwood, do you have any questions?

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising, thank you, no.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  That concludes

           4       your evidence.  What we're going to do -- I'll ask you

           5       to stay there for two moments because what we'll do --

           6       that might be a convenient moment for us to have our

           7       short mid-morning break.

           8           So what I'll do is ask for the cameras to be turned

           9       off and in a moment, once that's done, thank you very

          10       much, ask the members of the jury to leave us for ten

          11       minutes.

          24   (11.30 am)

          25                         (A short break)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                            41
 

 

 


           1   (11.44 am)

           4                  (In the presence of the jury)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes Mr Underwood.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can we have R68, please?

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could we have R68?

           8                           R68 (sworn)

           9                   (The witness was anonymised)

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Have a seat,

          11       please.

          12   A.  Thank you, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood will ask you some

          14       questions.

          15                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, officer.

          17   A.  Good morning, sir.

          18   Q.  My name's Underwood and I'm counsel to the Inquest,

          19       I start the questions going.

          20           First of all, we need to identify you by reference

          21       to the list that is in front of you.  There are some

          22       ciphers on it.  Can you look down the list for R68,

          23       please?

          24   A.  Yes, sir, those details are correct.

          25   Q.  That's your name by it, is it?


                                            42
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  Thank you very much.  First of all, I want to ask you

           3       about the 4 August 2011.  Were you the driver of the

           4       Charlie car?

           5   A.  Yes, sir, I was.

           6   Q.  What weaponry did you have on that day?

           7   A.  On that day, I had my personal issue Glock 17

           8       self-loading pistol, which was carried in a covert

           9       holster.  I had my MP5 carbine, which was carried in the

          10       footwell of the vehicle down by my feet.  I also had

          11       a X26 Taser and I had also booked out that day a G36

          12       rifle, which is a 556 size round and that was kept in

          13       the rear of the vehicle.

          14   Q.  Right.  Did that leave the rear of the vehicle at any

          15       stage?

          16   A.  No, it stayed in a slip in the boot, sir.

          17   Q.  We know that on your way from Leman Street to

          18       Quicksilver intelligence came in and then at Quicksilver

          19       you had a fairly quick turnaround to get on the road

          20       again; is that fair?

          21   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  When you left Quicksilver, what were you anticipating

          23       that might happen?

          24   A.  We -- I assumed that we would be doing a stop of

          25       a vehicle.  It's quite a -- when we are deployed on


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       MASTS operations sometimes the intelligence doesn't lead

           2       anywhere and we're stood down, we may hold somewhere or

           3       we may end up doing a stop of a vehicle.

           4   Q.  There came a point, I think, when state amber was

           5       called.  At that stage, did you realise the stop was

           6       likely to go in?

           7   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

           8   Q.  What did you understand, at that point, when amber was

           9       called, about the target vehicle?

          10   A.  At that time, we'd received information that we were --

          11       the vehicle in question was a gold-coloured people

          12       carrier and that vehicle was initially two cars in front

          13       of us -- well, two cars behind the convoy.  It was

          14       directly in front of a blue BMW X5 and then behind that

          15       was a surveillance vehicle.

          16   Q.  Right.  There may or may not be magic in the way the

          17       colour of the vehicle is described but I'm sure you've

          18       heard various colours: bronze, gold, silver, et cetera.

          19       Now, where did you first pick up the colour that was

          20       attached to this minicab?

          21   A.  I can't recall exactly, sir.  I would have thought it

          22       would have been from the surveillance officers over the

          23       radio.

          24   Q.  You were in the car with W70 and V53, I think, is that

          25       right?


                                            44
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Did you have any discussions about the way that you

           3       thought this stop might go?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.  I had been on Operation Dibri on one occasion

           5       in the past.  However, V53 had been deployed on

           6       Operation Dibri a couple of times, I believe.  V53 and

           7       myself -- and W70 and myself -- were all from the same

           8       team, we were staffing up that day.

           9           We had a discussion basically that, on previous

          10       occasions, members of the Tottenham Man Dem had tried to

          11       escape during stops, had used violence to escape and we

          12       were sort of -- that was in the back of our minds all

          13       the time.  As it is with any stop, as I'm sure you're

          14       aware, we act to the actions of the occupants of the

          15       vehicle.  So we were mindful that there may be violence

          16       used, the subject may attempt to escape.

          17   Q.  Can you recall what was said about the likelihood of

          18       violence, should anybody try to escape?

          19   A.  I don't recall anything particularly being said

          20       regarding the violence, just that in the past vehicle

          21       stops that have been carried out or any times we've

          22       dealt with -- our department have dealt with Tottenham

          23       Man Dem, that violence had been used and that they had

          24       tried to break out of stops before.  But I wasn't aware

          25       of any particular incidents myself.


                                            45
 

 

 


           1   Q.  When you say "break out of stops", are you there talking

           2       about the subject vehicle trying to break out of a stop

           3       or an individual trying to run away or what?

           4   A.  Both.  Both, sir.

           5   Q.  Again, trying to pin down a little more, if we can, the

           6       sort of violence that might have been discussed here.

           7       Was this a discussion about violence used by TMD members

           8       against armed officers?

           9   A.  I don't recall, sir.  I remember the conversation just

          10       being that violence had been used in the past.

          11       Obviously I hadn't experienced that myself, so

          12       I couldn't really say, sir.

          13   Q.  All right.  We've seen a video of hard stops and how

          14       quickly people can get out of cars.  Was it your habit

          15       to have a word or a trigger for people to get out of the

          16       cars or could they get out as soon as they thought your

          17       vehicle was going slow enough or what?

          18   A.  When I've stopped the vehicles safely -- all of our

          19       vehicles are automatics, once that vehicle is in park

          20       I shout "Doors" or "Doors, doors", depending on what

          21       I can get out at the time.  That indicates that -- to my

          22       colleagues, that the vehicle is stopped, it's not going

          23       to move forward any further.  So they are able to safely

          24       deploy from the vehicle.

          25   Q.  The way you ran a hard stop was that you would not


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       expect your crew members to get out of your car until

           2       you got the car in park?

           3   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           4   Q.  I want to move on to the expectation of the minicab

           5       driver.  Were you expecting him to be antagonistic or

           6       an innocent party or what?

           7   A.  At that time, sir, he was what we call an unknown

           8       threat.  We -- on previous occasions, I certainly have

           9       been involved in stops before where cab drivers are used

          10       regularly -- the same cab driver is used regularly by

          11       members of organised criminal networks.  At that time,

          12       there was no information to say he was involved.

          13       However, he was an unknown risk.

          14   Q.  So you were telling me earlier on that there was the

          15       convoy, there were some surveillance vehicles between

          16       you and the minicab; how did the progress of the trip

          17       go?

          18   A.  Initially, the traffic was very heavy.  The Blackhorse

          19       Lane end of Ferry Lane/Forest Road is habitually a busy

          20       junction.  I remember travelling down Ferry Lane towards

          21       Tottenham Hale and we used the bus lane to make

          22       progress.  Earlier on we had to use our car horns

          23       instead of our sirens.  Obviously we don't want to alert

          24       the subject vehicle that we're closing behind, so we

          25       stayed on the bus lane side as well because to come out


                                            47
 

 

 


           1       onto the opposing lane not only would be dangerous but

           2       also may give the driver a bit of a heads up we were

           3       coming, sort of thing.

           4   Q.  What was the feeling?  Was this very stressful moving

           5       through traffic or was this a regular event or what?

           6   A.  It's a regular -- it is a regular occurrence.  I do tend

           7       to drive quite a lot, sir.  The majority of the stops we

           8       do, I drive.  It is -- it's stressful but it's me really

           9       concentrating 100 per cent on getting my colleagues and

          10       deploying the stop safely.

          11   Q.  There came a point when state red was called; were you

          12       aware of that?

          13   A.  Yes, sir, I was.

          14   Q.  How close were you to the minicab at that stage?

          15   A.  Initially we weren't behind the minicab initially.  When

          16       the state red was called, there was a bit of a delay.

          17       I think initially the blue X5 was still -- was still

          18       behind the minicab and that was something we were going

          19       to probably have to deal with should it -- we stop the

          20       vehicle, but luckily for us, it was pure luck that

          21       vehicle then turned left into Jarrow Road.

          22   Q.  Did you see it go left?

          23   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          24   Q.  How soon after that was strike called?

          25   A.  Pretty much almost immediately after, sir.


                                            48
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just before we come to that, you're

           2       wired for sound, are you, you can hear what's going on

           3       in the other cars in the convoy?

           4   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The surveillance car in front, were

           6       you wired into that too, did you have direct contact

           7       with them?

           8   A.  We have two radio channels, sir, a back to back channel

           9       that the Tactical Support Team officers will use and

          10       also the main working channel.  I do not recall what the

          11       main working channel was that day but we would have been

          12       listening to the surveillance commentary as well, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But not in a position to give them

          14       directions?

          15   A.  I'm at the rear of the convoy, sir, so I'm pretty much

          16       following Alpha and Bravo with control.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You just keep quiet and follow?

          18   A.  Yes, I was trying to keep up with them, to be honest,

          19       sir.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  At the point when strike was called were you

          21       close behind the Bravo car?

          22   A.  I was, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  You saw the stop go in, I take it?

          24   A.  Yes, sir.

          25   Q.  Who used sirens, if anyone?


                                            49
 

 

 


           1   A.  If I may refer to my statement, I believe it was Bravo

           2       that used sirens.

           3   Q.  Please.  The copy of the statement that we have has the

           4       word blanked out on it.

           5   A.  I'm terribly sorry, sir.  (Pause)

           6           Yes, it was Bravo, sir.  I was aware of Bravo using

           7       its sirens.

           8   Q.  As far as you were concerned, did the stop look normal?

           9   A.  I thought it was what we would call a textbook stop,

          10       sir.  The positioning of the vehicles and the fact that

          11       we were around the vehicle extremely quickly.  I was

          12       particularly proud of the way I positioned my vehicle,

          13       I thought I had done a good job, sir.

          14   Q.  Did you, in fact, manage to get your car into park and

          15       shout "Doors"?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  What did you have to do after that before you personally

          18       got out?

          19   A.  Once the car stopped and I've shouted doors, my two

          20       colleagues deployed from the passenger side of the

          21       vehicle.  I am then out of the car.  I may have left the

          22       keys in the ignition, they are a bit fiddly to get out,

          23       to be honest, so I more than likely would have left them

          24       there.  But once the car is secure, I am out of the car

          25       looking for a job or looking for something to do.


                                            50
 

 

 


           1   Q.  What do you mean by "secure"; do you have to lock it?

           2   A.  No, sir.  The vehicle itself, when it's placed into

           3       park, I didn't apply the handbrake, it's -- the way the

           4       vehicle was -- when it's into park, it pretty much

           5       brakes itself, it's not going to move any further.

           6       I would have turned -- I turned the engine off, which is

           7       just a button.  It was a BMW, so it's just a stop/start

           8       button.

           9   Q.  Okay.  So having done that, what did you do?

          10   A.  I got out of the vehicle, sir.  I looked up and, as

          11       I looked up, I saw a male coming away from the rear --

          12       or the passenger side -- of the minicab.

          13   Q.  Before we go any further about him.  Let's have a look

          14       at a plan, CE264.

          15   A.  Is that in here, sir?

          16   Q.  It'll come up on the screen.  You can either look up at

          17       the big screen above your head or the small screen down

          18       there, whichever is more convenient for you.

          19           First of all, is this the plan you drew?

          20   A.  Yes, sir, it is.

          21   Q.  The BMW on the right represents the Charlie car and you

          22       come out of the driver's side door then, yes?

          23   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          24   Q.  How far had you got before what you were just about to

          25       tell us you saw?


                                            51
 

 

 


           1   A.  I stood up, sir, so the door was still open.

           2       I basically stopped and looked over the top of our

           3       vehicle, sir.

           4   Q.  Any particular reason for stopping and looking?

           5   A.  Really, sir, just to assess what's happening first.

           6       With a stop of this type, you are very much reacting to

           7       the behaviour of the occupants.  So just to check for

           8       a second, just a stop check to see where I'm needed is

           9       a moment -- it is a momentary -- a moment.

          10   Q.  Is that what the driver of the Charlie vehicle is

          11       trained to do: to stop, assess, see where they need to

          12       go?

          13   A.  There's nothing particularly about stopping and

          14       assessing.  However, it's just something I do.

          15   Q.  All right.  Let's leave this up on the screens.  You

          16       were about to tell us that you saw a person.  Can you

          17       tell us in your own words what you saw, please?

          18   A.  Sir, yes.  As I've stood up, I've seen Mr Duggan coming

          19       out of the -- well, Mr Duggan on the footway, moving

          20       away from the vehicle.  I've seen W70 and V53 moving

          21       towards him on the pavement, from the passenger side of

          22       the vehicle.

          23   Q.  You corrected yourself about whether you saw Mr Duggan

          24       getting out of the minicab.  Can we explore that a bit?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                            52
 

 

 


           1   Q.  In relation to what we now know of the layout of the

           2       door of the minicab, can you tell us where he was?  Was

           3       he stepping out of the car, was he stepping up on the

           4       threshold of it to get out was, he down on the pavement;

           5       can you help?

           6   A.  When I first saw Mr Duggan he had both feet on the

           7       footway, sir, and he was in somewhere -- initially

           8       somewhere in that box B.

           9   Q.  So from where you were basically standing in the doorway

          10       of your car, obviously part of the minicab would shield

          11       anybody getting out of it; would that be fair?

          12   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  He has to have got past that shielding area for you to

          14       see him with both feet on the ground; would that be

          15       right?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  Can you describe his stance?

          18   A.  I've described his stance as he was running but it was

          19       a -- it's what I would describe as a lolloping run.

          20   Q.  An ungainly run?

          21   A.  Yes.  I've likened it to if you were running for a bus

          22       and trying to retrieve something, like get change out of

          23       your packet or your wallet out, it affects the way you

          24       run.  It's not a -- it's not a determined sprint, it's

          25       more an awkward run, sir.


                                            53
 

 

 


           1   Q.  What could you see of his hands?

           2   A.  At the time, sir, nothing.

           3   Q.  Can you tell us why you couldn't see anything of his

           4       hands?  Is it just that you were not looking at them or

           5       was there something stopping you seeing them?

           6   A.  Initially, sir, he had his -- when I've seen him he had

           7       his right hand across his body inside his jacket,

           8       towards the left-hand side of his waistband, and his

           9       left hand was down by his side.  My -- I've been

          10       immediately drawn to that straightaway.  The very -- we

          11       very rarely get people running from the car, so the very

          12       fact someone is running, my attention was drawn to him

          13       straightaway and then drawn again to his hands.

          14   Q.  If he had a gun in his right hand that was visible, you

          15       would have seen it, would you?

          16   A.  If it had been visible, sir, yes, I would have seen it.

          17   Q.  If he had been pulling the bottom left hand part of his

          18       jacket up to the right hand part of his chest with his

          19       left hand, you would have seen that, would you?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  What did you see him do?

          22   A.  He appeared to be trying to pull something out of the

          23       waistband of his trousers.  He was using his left hand,

          24       his left hand has moved up to a sort of -- hold his

          25       jacket and his right hand has been over to his left-hand


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       side of his body, sir.

           2   Q.  Can I put this possibility to you: we know that, until

           3       some seconds before the car was stopped, he was using

           4       a mobile phone, could he have been putting a mobile

           5       phone in his pocket, do you think?

           6   A.  He could have been, sir, I couldn't comment.

           7   Q.  What happened?

           8   A.  I -- as I've looked up, there's a lot of officers now

           9       moving to the pavement side from the other vehicles.

          10       I've looked up, assessed the area, I've seen that

          11       there's only one officer with the -- at the driver's

          12       side of the vehicle.  I've then made a decision that

          13       I am going to go and deal with the driver.  I then

          14       started to move forward and, as I've moved forward, I've

          15       heard two shots fired.

          16   Q.  Can I just ask about your state of mind while you were

          17       doing that?  You've told us seeing anybody run from

          18       a stop like this was something that's going to get your

          19       attention; that's right, isn't it?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  He was apparently struggling with something in side the

          22       jacket by his waistband, yes?

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  Did that strike you as a threat?

          25   A.  Not as a threat at that time, sir.  He was quite a -- he


                                            55
 

 

 


           1       wasn't in front of me.  If I had been closer to him then

           2       maybe, yes.

           3   Q.  After you diverted your attention from him to the

           4       minicab driver, how long was it before you heard shots?

           5   A.  A matter of moments, sir.

           6   Q.  When you say moments: a second or two?

           7   A.  A couple of seconds, sir.

           8   Q.  What precisely did you hear?

           9   A.  I heard shouts from the footway, I don't recall exactly

          10       what was being shouted.  I then heard two shots.

          11   Q.  A double tap or a gap between?

          12   A.  No, there was a gap between them, sir.

          13   Q.  Did they appear to come from your left or right or what?

          14   A.  They came from my left, sir.

          15   Q.  Did you assume they were police shots?

          16   A.  At the time, sir, I just -- I just heard two shots.

          17       There were so many people on the pavement, I really

          18       didn't know.  I just knew that shots had been fired.

          19   Q.  Did you look back to see --

          20   A.  No, sir.

          21   Q.  So you were still concentrating on going towards the

          22       driver, were you?

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  Were you aware, in particular, of V53 and W70 as you

          25       diverted your attention to the driver?


                                            56
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.  They were on the footway to my left.  V53 was

           2       in front with W70 behind him.

           3   Q.  Were you aware of anybody from the Bravo car, so R31 for

           4       example?

           5   A.  I wouldn't be able to call who was on the pavement.

           6       There were officers coming up behind Mr Duggan from the

           7       other vehicles.  I do not recall who, sir.

           8   Q.  What about between the Bravo car and the minicab, was

           9       there anybody there, because if there had been they

          10       would have been between you and the driver, would they

          11       not?

          12   A.  I do not recall anyone, sir, no.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You do not recall the occupants of

          14       the Bravo car getting out and coming round?

          15   A.  I don't recall seeing them, sir, no.  They may well have

          16       been there, sir, but I don't recall seeing them.

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  I am not going to take you to your notebook

          18       unless you want to look at it but in your EAB you didn't

          19       say "two shots", did you, you just said "shots".

          20   A.  I believe I said "a number of shots", sir.

          21   Q.  Let's have a look at it, to be fair.  It's at CD36 in

          22       our version.  If you have a hard copy, by all means

          23       look, but it will come up on the screen.

          24   A.  Thank you, sir.  Yes, sir, I said:

          25           "Shots were fired."


                                            57
 

 

 


           1   Q.  CD40:

           2           "During the deployment of this stop, shots were

           3       fired by police."

           4           Tell us why you didn't say "two shots"?

           5   A.  At that time, sir, I wasn't entirely sure two shots had

           6       been fired.  We are -- when we have -- when we receive

           7       training to into the post-deployment, we are sort of --

           8       we are told basically not to say the amount of shots

           9       that have been fired.  I wanted to give the best

          10       evidence I could and, at that time, it wasn't clear to

          11       me that two shots had been fired.  It's only a bit later

          12       on when we've sat and -- I've sat and thought about it.

          13   Q.  Sat and talked about it?

          14   A.  Pardon, sir.

          15   Q.  And sat and talked about it?

          16   A.  No, sir.  At the time -- in my mind, honestly, I thought

          17       "I've heard a couple of shots" but at that time

          18       I couldn't be 100 per cent sure, sir.

          19   Q.  Right.  The impression you have given at the moment is

          20       that you have seen Mr Duggan, as we now know him to be,

          21       as you describe him doing what he was doing with his

          22       hands and arms and you diverted your attention to the

          23       cab driver.  Is there anything else you saw of Mr Duggan

          24       before you saw him shot?

          25   A.  Only other than the fact that when I've initially seen


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       him he was grinning, sir.

           2   Q.  Grinning generally?

           3   A.  I have described it as a "closed mouth grin".  I cannot

           4       say why.

           5   Q.  Who was he looking at?

           6   A.  He was looking in my direction, sir, but I cannot say

           7       who he was looking at directly.

           8   Q.  How long before the shots were fired was this?

           9   A.  Seconds, sir.

          10   Q.  As far as you could see, was he appearing to give his

          11       attention to you?

          12   A.  I can't say, sir, it was such a fast unfolding incident.

          13       I saw him for a moment before I decided to sort of look

          14       elsewhere, move elsewhere.

          15   Q.  Then, have I got this right, you didn't see him again

          16       before the shots were fired?

          17   A.  No, sir.

          18   Q.  What did you next see of him after that then?

          19   A.  The next time I saw Mr Duggan, he appeared to be doubled

          20       over, almost as if winded.  I've then continued moving

          21       forward down the passenger side -- sorry, the driver's

          22       side -- of the minicab.

          23   Q.  If we can look at the map again, CE264, can you help us

          24       about where he was when he was apparently winded and

          25       leaning forward?


                                            59
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.  He was somewhere within the box marked B.

           2   Q.  Is there any magic in there being a circle in the box

           3       marked B?

           4   A.  No, sir.  It's just where I was initially trying to work

           5       out roughly where we both would have been.  But there's

           6       no reason why that particular circle, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You started off putting circles

           8       firstly, then put a box round each one afterwards, did

           9       you?

          10   A.  No, sir, I think there's various scribblings on there

          11       where I've been working out in my head roughly where

          12       I am but I cannot say for sure exactly where he was, so

          13       I've marked it in that box somewhere, sir.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Fair enough.  Did you give any more attention

          15       to that or did you carry on looking for the driver?

          16   A.  I carried on towards the driver, sir.

          17   Q.  Did you then deal with the driver?

          18   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          19   Q.  Did you see Mr Duggan again after that?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.  I assisted in first aid afterwards.

          21   Q.  Tell us about that, if you would?

          22   A.  After I dealt with the driver and the driver was secure

          23       and I was happy that the driver hadn't been injured,

          24       I was very keen to assist my colleagues in helping with

          25       first aid.  So I joined V53 and another officer in


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       helping with first aid.

           2   Q.  Can you recall who the other officer was?

           3   A.  It was the officer that's just given evidence, sir,

           4       I don't recall his pseudonym, sorry.

           5   Q.  Fine, we can.  What did you actually do?

           6   A.  Initially, sir, I came over initially and said I could

           7       take over the chest compressions.  However, V53 wished

           8       to remain doing the chest compressions at that time.  So

           9       then I assisted -- just assisted him prepping fresh

          10       gloves, preparing -- basically, making sure that

          11       anything they required I could hand it to them.  The

          12       medic bag at the time was at Mr Duggan's head end so

          13       I was more -- I just wanted to help, to be honest, sir,

          14       wherever they needed me.

          15   Q.  Are you specifically medically trained?

          16   A.  I am, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Did you carry on doing that until the paramedics

          18       arrived?

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  Did you become aware that a gun had been found anywhere?

          21   A.  I was aware -- I believe it was just after the HEMS crew

          22       had arrived that a gun had been found nearby, sir.

          23   Q.  Did you go back to Leman Street to the post-incident

          24       procedure?

          25   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.


                                            61
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Did you become aware at any stage that W42 had been

           2       shot?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  When was that?

           5   A.  I believe it initially was as I've dealt with --

           6       finished dealing with the driver.  I've looked up, to

           7       see what was going on, and I'm aware that he had been

           8       shot as well.  That made me even more keen to assist

           9       because I don't have an infinite amount of medics and

          10       I knew there was at least two casualties.

          11   Q.  Did you make sense of what had happened?  One person had

          12       been shot, who was the subject, a police officer had

          13       been shot, you had heard what you've later confirmed in

          14       your mind were two shots.  Had you worked out what had

          15       gone on?

          16   A.  Not at all, sir.

          17   Q.  Did you become aware at any stage that W42 had been shot

          18       by an overpenetrating round of V53's?

          19   A.  Yes, sir, I did.

          20   Q.  How did you become aware of that?

          21   A.  I believe it may have been when we went back to the

          22       police station when -- because, at the time, I had no

          23       interaction with that officer at all.  So I think it

          24       would have been back at the police station, sir.

          25   Q.  How would that have come out?


                                            62
 

 

 


           1   A.  I don't know, sir.  We were being told lots of things

           2       and sort of being pushed from pillar to post really.  So

           3       I don't recall, sir.

           4   Q.  Let's get this clear.  You would have spoken to

           5       a lawyer, a Federation representative, senior officers,

           6       that sort of thing?

           7   A.  That's correct, sir.

           8   Q.  All as part of the normal post-incident procedures?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  You think it was in that sort of process that somebody

          11       told you that this was an overpenetrating round?

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well, Officer, thank you very much.  If

          14       you would wait there, please.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          16           Yes, Mr Thomas?

          17                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          18   MR THOMAS:  Good afternoon, R68.

          19   A.  Good afternoon, sir.

          20   Q.  I represent the loved ones of Mark Duggan.

          21           Can I start with your memory in relation to this.

          22       You say that on the day, after the incident, when you

          23       came to make your note up, you weren't sure in your mind

          24       as to how many shots had been fired?

          25   A.  My initial account, sir?


                                            63
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Yes.

           2   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           3   Q.  Yes.  This much is correct, isn't it: at the scene, you

           4       had done first aid on Mr Duggan --

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  -- assisted with the first aid?

           7   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

           8   Q.  You could see that he had two injuries: he had an injury

           9       to his arm and he had an injury to his chest?

          10   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          11   Q.  You could see that those were separate injuries?

          12   A.  At the time, sir, I could not be entirely sure.

          13   Q.  What, the injury to his arm and the injury to his

          14       chest --

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  -- you couldn't see that they were in completely

          17       different parts of his body; is that what you are

          18       saying?

          19   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          20   Q.  You see, what I'm going to suggest to you is this, I'm

          21       just trying to see if I can make sense in relation to

          22       why you were unsure as to the number of shots.  You saw

          23       an injury to his arm, you saw an injury to his chest and

          24       you also knew at the scene that a colleague had been

          25       shot.


                                            64
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  Right.  The one thing that you didn't have the benefit

           3       of, by the time you wrote up your initial account, was

           4       you didn't have V53 sitting in with you so you didn't

           5       know how many shots he was going to say he fired; do you

           6       follow?

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   Q.  Neither did you have the information as to how many

           9       bullets had been counted and accounted for.

          10   A.  No, sir.

          11   Q.  No.  So, Officer, may I suggest to you that the reason

          12       why you wrote "shots", even though you heard two shots,

          13       was because you didn't know what your colleague was

          14       going to say?

          15   A.  That's not the case, sir, no.

          16   Q.  Well, help me with this: Mr Underwood just asked you

          17       a question and he said "Well, when did you become sure

          18       as to the number of shots?"  This is what you started to

          19       say "we sat and talked about it", and then you stopped.

          20   A.  That was an error on my part, sir.

          21   Q.  What was the error -- what was the error?

          22   A.  We hadn't talked about it, sir.

          23   Q.  Why did you tell us that just now?

          24   A.  That was an error on my part, sir.

          25   MR STERN:  Sorry to interrupt, I don't want to, perhaps the


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       record could be checked because the officer, in my

           2       hearing did not say that.  If he did, then I apologise

           3       but that was not what he actually said.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I have him saying about how he --

           5   MR STERN:  Maybe you have the transcript there.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I have not got the transcript, it

           7       will be down there.  But he's said he's been told lots

           8       of things and pushed from pillar to post by the lawyer

           9       and Police Federation rep.

          10   MR STERN:  I think it's earlier.  My learned friend is

          11       talking about the point Mr Underwood was asking him.

          12   MR THOMAS:  We can check the transcript --

          13   MR STERN:  Thank you.

          14   MR THOMAS:  -- and I'll come back to that after lunch.

          15           In any event, I'm going to suggest that you and your

          16       colleagues deliberately conferred together not to put in

          17       the number of shots because you didn't know what V53 was

          18       going to say.

          19   A.  That's not --

          20   Q.  Do you accept that?

          21   A.  No, I don't, sir.

          22   Q.  Let me move on.  I wonder, do you have your pocket book

          23       there, your evidence and action book?

          24   A.  I have a copy of it, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  That'll do.  I wonder if CD36 can be put up on the


                                            66
 

 

 


           1       screen for the jury, please.

           2           If we turn to CD40, which is where the actual

           3       written account starts, you've written, and I have

           4       counted them, six sentences.  If you want to count them

           5       for yourself it's easier to see on the typed copy.

           6   A.  No, it's all right, sir.

           7   Q.  You have written six sentences.  If you go over the

           8       page, you can see.  You would accept your initial

           9       account is very, very brief; would you agree?

          10   A.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  Six sentences.  Now, can I just read those six sentences

          12       just to see how complicated those six sentences are.

          13       You say this -- can we put up the typed version, that's

          14       at CS221.  I'm just going to read it if we could just

          15       make that big so the jury can follow it if they wish to.

          16       You say this:

          17           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty in plain

          18       clothes as an authorised firearms officer attached to

          19       [blank]."

          20           That's the first sentence.  Nothing controversial in

          21       that, agreed?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  Then second sentence:

          24           "At 1600 hours I was paraded at Leman Street police

          25       station and was posted driving [blank] and in the


                                            67
 

 

 


           1       company of W70 and V53 engaged on Operation Dibri."

           2           That's the second sentence.  Again, you would agree

           3       nothing controversial in that?

           4   A.  No, sir.

           5   Q.  Third sentence:

           6           "At approximately 1813 I was engaged in an armed

           7       stop of a gold people carrier in ..."

           8           Then you give the reference number in Ferry Lane?

           9   A.  That's the registration, sir.

          10   MR THOMAS:  Oh, the registration number.

          11           "... in N17."

          12           That's the next sentence.

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  Then the fourth sentence, so this is the sentence when

          15       you actually deal with the incident itself because up

          16       until then you haven't really come onto the shooting at

          17       all, would you agree?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  So fourth sentence:

          20           "During this deployment of this stop shots were

          21       fired by police which resulted in one of the occupants

          22       of the vehicle being fatally shot."

          23           Then the fifth sentence:

          24           "I remained at the scene until dismissed by the

          25       officer in charge."


                                            68
 

 

 


           1           Then the last sentence.

           2           "I returned to HO for the post-incident procedure."

           3           Then you have signed it.  Six sentences and out of

           4       the six sentences, the first three are pretty

           5       uncontroversial, the fourth one where you deal with the

           6       incident is you don't say anything apart from you heard

           7       shots, and then you talk about returning to the scene.

           8           How long did it take you to write those six

           9       sentences?

          10   A.  I don't recall, sir.

          11   Q.  Let me help you.  Can we go to CD39; that's your

          12       notebook.  If we enlarge that page and look at the very

          13       top we can see when you started and when you finished.

          14       You started at 2258 and you finished at 2341.

          15       43 minutes, nearly three-quarters after hour, to write

          16       those six sentences, only one of them deals with the

          17       incident.  Why did it take you three-quarters of

          18       an hour, approximately three-quarters of an hour, to

          19       write that?

          20   A.  I don't recall, sir, I believe because it may have been

          21       because what I wanted to write down I wanted to be sure

          22       in my head what I was writing down, sir.

          23   Q.  You see, if we go to the last page of your pocket book

          24       you don't even get your -- you don't even get your

          25       pocket book franked or date stamped, time stamped, until


                                            69
 

 

 


           1       0015.  That's the time stamp -- just confirm?

           2   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct, sir, yes.

           3   Q.  It's 0015.  We have heard in evidence and you can

           4       correct me if I am wrong, the franking machine, stamping

           5       machine is just a couple of minutes away?

           6   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  Can I come back to the point I was putting to you

           8       earlier on.  Nearly three-quarters of an hour and then

           9       there's a nearly half an hour delay before you frank

          10       your notes: you are engaged with the officers deciding

          11       what you're going to write.

          12   A.  That's not correct, sir, no.

          13   Q.  Let me move on.  Let me come to the incident itself.  So

          14       you make a detailed account on 7 August.

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  When you make this detailed account on 7 August you say

          17       "By now I can recall what has happened, the detail in my

          18       head is fresher".

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  Explain how it is, by 7 August, you now are sure, or

          21       certainly sure enough, to put "two shots" in your

          22       witness statement; what's your explanation?

          23   A.  At that time, sir, I had time to go home, think about

          24       the event, which was a very traumatic event, and,

          25       thinking about it, being at home, I was happy when


                                            70
 

 

 


           1       I came back to write my statement that two shots had

           2       been fired.

           3   Q.  Are you saying that you didn't know by this time that

           4       V53 was saying he had only fired two shots and therefore

           5       you were trying to bring your evidence in line with him;

           6       is that what you're saying?

           7   A.  No, sir.

           8   Q.  Let's come to the actual incident itself.  Now, can we

           9       call up, please, CS -- this is your section 9 statement,

          10       the statement dated 7 August 2011 -- CS217.  I wonder if

          11       that could be put on the screen, please.  If we can

          12       enlarge that and go towards the last half of the page,

          13       please.

          14           We've got to the stage where the strike's been

          15       called, the hard stop has been put in and officers are

          16       deploying from their vehicle to make their arrest.

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  It's right, isn't it, that that was the plan, the plan

          19       was to arrest Mark Duggan --

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  -- not to shoot him?

          22   A.  No, sir.

          23   Q.  Right.  So you deploy from your vehicle, you make your

          24       way round to where you've pointed out on that other plan

          25       what we have just seen and had up.


                                            71
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  Then you say this, I just want to read from your witness

           3       statement and I'm reading from about 13 lines or so up

           4       from the bottom of the page where it says:

           5           "As I secured the vehicle ..."

           6           The mouse is there now.

           7   A.  Sorry, sir.

           8   Q.  It says:

           9           "As I secured the vehicle I could hear W70 and V53

          10       deploying from my car.  I opened my car door and quickly

          11       got out.  As I stood up alongside my open driver's door

          12       I saw an IC3 ..."

          13           That's African-Caribbean, yes?

          14   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  "... male getting out of the rear passenger side of the

          16       vehicle."

          17           Let's just pause there and ask you about that.

          18           So, this was your first observation, after the hard

          19       stop, of Mark Duggan?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  Just so we're clear, where do you say you're standing?

          22   A.  I'm standing alongside my vehicle, sir, by the open

          23       driver's door, sir.

          24   Q.  You could see Mark getting out of the rear passenger

          25       side of the minicab?


                                            72
 

 

 


           1   A.  I've supplied a -- I supplied a later statement, sir,

           2       during which I was asked by the IPCC to answer some

           3       further questions and one of those questions was when

           4       did I exactly first see Mr Duggan and I have completed

           5       a further statement and I said when I first saw him both

           6       his feet were on the footway, sir.

           7   Q.  I'm asking you what your evidence is.  We can come to

           8       further statements if we need to.

           9   A.  Okay, sir.

          10   Q.  Do you not have a recollection?

          11   A.  I do, sir.  When I first saw Mr Duggan, both feet were

          12       on the footway, sir.

          13   Q.  All right.  Then you say this:

          14           "The open rear door was a sliding door and slid open

          15       fully."

          16           The taxi cab door was fully open.

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  Then you give a description of Mark, you describe him as

          19       being about 30 years of age, black short Afro hair, you

          20       describe.

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  You describe what he's wearing.  You say he's wearing

          23       dark blue jeans, a brown, tan jacket; would you agree --

          24       this is lots of detail, isn't it?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                            73
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You've put in this detail because this is what you

           2       remember, is it?

           3   A.  That is my recollection of events, sir.

           4   Q.  All right.  Then you say this:

           5           "I was about 10 feet away looking at him across the

           6       bonnet of my vehicle."

           7           So you are pretty close to the man?

           8   A.  Yes, across the bonnet of the car, sir.

           9   Q.  Yes.  You say lighting was good, correct?

          10   A.  Yes.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  You go on to say:

          12           "I had a clear and unobstructed view of him."

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  "I could see that the male had his right hand inside the

          15       left-hand side of his jacket near his waistband."

          16   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Could you stand up, please?

          18   A.  Certainly, sir.

          19   Q.  Could you just demonstrate what you say Mark Duggan was

          20       doing so we can see and picture it in our mind's eye?

          21   A.  Yes, certainly, sir.  Right hand was across the body

          22       towards the left-hand side of his jacket, his left hand

          23       was securing his jacket like this, sir (indicates).

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry?

          25   A.  Sorry, sir.


                                            74
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are you on top of the jacket you are

           2       not underneath it?

           3   A.  His hand was inside his jacket, sir, and this left hand

           4       was securing the left-hand side of his jacket, sir

           5       (indicates).

           6   MR THOMAS:  You can sit down, please.

           7   A.  Sorry, thank you.

           8   Q.  That's fine.  So the demonstration you have just given,

           9       with -- I am just going to repeat it -- so it's right

          10       hand --

          11   A.  Right hand, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  -- across his jacket by the waistband, yes --

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  -- as I'm demonstrating now (indicates)?

          15   A.  That's right, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  I'm doing this so people upstairs can see.

          17   A.  Okay, sir, no problems.

          18   Q.  You say that his left hand was in that sort of position

          19       (indicates).

          20   A.  Somewhere -- it was securing the area around the jacket

          21       on that side, sir.

          22   Q.  That's the first thing I wanted to clarify.  The second

          23       thing I wanted to clarify with you, and I think the

          24       Coroner just asked you that question, was the right hand

          25       inside the jacket?


                                            75
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  So the right hand was concealed; that's your evidence,

           3       is it?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.  I couldn't see his right hand, sir.

           5   Q.  Yes, concealed?

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  Just so -- so Mark's in that position (indicates), as

           8       you have just described?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  This is when you initially see him when he's got both

          11       feet on the pavement; is that correct?

          12   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Help us with this.  You had received intelligence, had

          14       you, in relation to Mark possibly having a firearm?

          15   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          16   Q.  In fact, that's what this whole hard stop was about, it

          17       was to take firearms off the streets of London.

          18   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

          19   Q.  You know, you had been briefed earlier on in relation to

          20       relatively good intelligence that Mark was going to pick

          21       a firearm up.

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  You had followed him in your convoy.  You had put in

          24       this hard stop to recover an illegal firearm and make

          25       an arrest.


                                            76
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  You see Mark doing this.  So would I be right in

           3       thinking, there he is, concealed hand going for the

           4       waistband in the manner that you've described, you must

           5       have been thinking to yourself "Maybe he's armed".

           6   A.  It was a possibility, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  No, but I'm asking you the question: did you think to

           8       yourself, "Maybe he's armed and reaching for a weapon"?

           9   A.  I didn't know what he was reaching for, sir.

          10   Q.  Precisely.  You didn't know what he was reaching for,

          11       right.  With all the intelligence that you had -- and

          12       I'm just exploring what you say you said he was doing --

          13       what was your immediate reaction when you saw that

          14       (indicates)?

          15   A.  I didn't react at all, sir.

          16   Q.  What?  You didn't go for your Glock, you didn't go for

          17       your firearm?

          18   A.  No, sir.

          19   Q.  Why not?

          20   A.  Because there was adequate officers already on the

          21       footway dealing with him and I had -- I was happy that

          22       the officers that were on the footway with him would be

          23       able to deal with any threat.

          24   Q.  How do you know that they could see what you could see?

          25   A.  I couldn't, sir.


                                            77
 

 

 


           1   Q.  No, you didn't?

           2   A.  No.

           3   Q.  Let's just get this clear.  On your account, would you

           4       agree that the description that you have given to

           5       a firearms officer on an operation like this would be --

           6       could be perceived as a potential threat; would you

           7       accept that?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  But you say "I don't go for my weapon, I don't shout any

          10       warnings to my colleagues", nothing like that; is that

          11       right?

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  Didn't happen, did it, Officer?  That's a load of

          14       nonsense, isn't it, Officer?

          15   A.  It did happen, sir.

          16   Q.  You don't go for your Glock?

          17   A.  No, sir.  I was carrying my MP5 at the time, sir.

          18   Q.  All right, help me with this.  So you say -- if we can

          19       just go back to the witness statement and just take it

          20       up.  I have got to the point where you say:

          21           "... left-hand side of his jacket near his

          22       waistband."

          23           The next sentence is:

          24           "This immediately alerted me to the fact he may have

          25       a weapon."


                                            78
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.  I couldn't be sure -- I couldn't see his

           2       hands, I was happy there was officers on the pavement,

           3       I assumed they would have seen the same as me.

           4   Q.  I will read on:

           5           "I could hear shouts of 'Stop' and 'Armed police'."

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  "The male's left arm was by his side.  He was just by

           8       the rear of the vehicle on the footway."

           9           Then you say this:

          10           "I became aware that the male was smiling and

          11       looking in my direction."

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  Then you say:

          14           "He appeared to be trying to pull an item from his

          15       waistband and had to use his left hand to assist him."

          16   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Then I want you to explain the next sentence:

          18           "This gave the appearance of a slow 'lolloping'

          19       run."

          20           So all during this, all of these observations, Mark

          21       Duggan is not static, he's moving, correct?

          22   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  He's moving towards where V53 is?

          24   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  He's moving to an extent that you describe his movement,


                                            79
 

 

 


           1       this run, as a "lolloping run"?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  So, just so I'm absolutely crystal clear about your

           4       evidence, you say two things.  Firstly -- I am still up

           5       until the point, yes, and I have not gone beyond this

           6       point, where you have still got your eyes on him and you

           7       have a clear unobstructed view; do you follow?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  So you say, from your account -- can we just put up the

          10       plan, please, one second, to make sure we are all

          11       singing from the same song sheet, as it were.

          12           You can see where the "B" is?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  I have not got to the "B" yet.

          15   A.  Okay.

          16   Q.  We can see the minicab.

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  Yes?  We can see the bonnet of the minicab.  Can we just

          19       put the mouse on the bonnet of the minicab.

          20   A.  I can see that, sir.

          21   Q.  It's marked there.

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  The "B" is towards the right of the plan; do you follow?

          24   A.  Yes, sir.

          25   Q.  Right.  Just so we're absolutely clear.  Your evidence


                                            80
 

 

 


           1       isn't that Mark gets out of the minicab, faces the

           2       direction towards the left and begins to make his way

           3       towards the left, is it?

           4   A.  No, sir.

           5   Q.  That would be quite wrong, would it, on your evidence,

           6       on your account?

           7   A.  I didn't see that, sir.

           8   Q.  Officer, I'm asking, you see him when he gets out of --

           9       you see when he puts his feet on the pavement and then

          10       you have a clear and unobstructed view.  I'm just asking

          11       you: on your account it would be quite wrong to suggest

          12       Mark went in the direction of the left?

          13   A.  I didn't see that, sir, no.

          14   Q.  You didn't see that but you were in a position to see

          15       that.  That's the point I'm making.

          16   A.  Right, sir, I can only tell you what I saw, sir, I only

          17       saw him move towards --

          18   Q.  To the right?

          19   A.  To the right, yes, sir.

          20   Q.  On your version of events, Mark Duggan, when he gets out

          21       of the cab, goes to the right --

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  -- not to the left?

          24   A.  No, sir.

          25   Q.  Doesn't even face to the left?


                                            81
 

 

 


           1   A.  Not to my recollection, sir, no.

           2   Q.  Because you would have been in a position to see it,

           3       wouldn't you?

           4   A.  Yes, sir, I would.

           5   Q.  Yes.  Help me with this: so you would also say it's

           6       quite wrong to make any suggestion, from your clear and

           7       unobstructed view, that, having got out of the minicab,

           8       pivoted to the left, then spun round to the right, Mark

           9       Duggan was stationary at the time he was shot; do you

          10       follow?

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  In other words, if anybody was to rubbish the

          13       suggestion that he was running towards V53 or W70 and

          14       they were to say that they were absolutely sure that

          15       that didn't happen, you would say, "No, that is what

          16       happened".  On your account.

          17   A.  I can only tell you what I saw, sir.

          18   Q.  That's what I'm asking you about.

          19   A.  Yes, sir.  I can't say, sir.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're there; you have given your

          21       account of what you saw.

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  And you are really concentrating

          24       hard on watching that, aren't you?

          25   A.  I see him for a split moment, sir, and then I'm looking


                                            82
 

 

 


           1       elsewhere.  I can't help any further.

           2   MR THOMAS:  I'm going to come to when you suddenly look

           3       elsewhere in a moment.

           4   A.  Okay.

           5   Q.  Remember, Officer, your words not mine, up until this

           6       point, where you divert your eyes, you say you have

           7       "a clear and unobstructed view"; I have just read that

           8       from your witness statement.

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Is that right?

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  So I put this suggestion to you -- I am just

          13       concentrating on your version of events.  On your

          14       version of events, Mark is running towards V53 in the

          15       direction of V53 and W70 with this lolloping type run?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  Thank you.  There you are, Mark Duggan is making this

          18       threatening, or potentially threatening, gesture with

          19       his hand inside his waistband.  You've been told that he

          20       might be armed with a firearm, you've got colleagues --

          21       you've got duties to your colleagues, haven't you?

          22   A.  Yes, sir, I have.

          23   Q.  You've got duties to the public around as well, haven't

          24       you?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                            83
 

 

 


           1   Q.  He's the immediate threat, isn't he?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  What do you say you do?

           4   A.  I go to the driver, sir.

           5   Q.  You see an immediate threat, a man who you suspect is

           6       Duggan, the target of your investigation, and you see

           7       the immediate vicinity where he might be a harm to the

           8       public or your colleagues and you take your eyes off

           9       him?

          10   A.  Yes, sir, I did.

          11   Q.  Why was that then; help us?

          12   A.  I trust my colleagues, sir.  We're a very close-knit

          13       team, I trust my colleagues implicitly.  We train for

          14       this -- for these stops regularly, and I don't doubt for

          15       a second that my colleagues were in any danger.  The

          16       vehicle itself was still -- the driver of the vehicle

          17       was still unsecure.  I could see there's plenty of

          18       officers on the pavement and I make the decision that

          19       there are plenty of officers to deal with that threat

          20       and I go to the driver, sir.

          21   Q.  It's interesting what you just said.  You said you

          22       didn't think your colleagues were in any danger.  You

          23       just said that.

          24   A.  Yes, sir.  What I -- I may have said (?) that probably

          25       not as well as I should have done but ...


                                            84
 

 

 


           1   Q.  It's your words.

           2   A.  Yes, sir, I totally agree.  But I was more than happy

           3       that my colleagues were able to deal with any threat

           4       that was posed.

           5   Q.  He wasn't armed, was he?

           6   A.  I believe he was, sir.

           7   Q.  You believe he was but you don't assist your colleagues?

           8   A.  No, sir.

           9   Q.  You don't draw your weapon?

          10   A.  My weapon was already out, sir, I did not --

          11   Q.  You don't raise it in the ready position?

          12   A.  No, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't have it up in the aim

          14       position?

          15   A.  No, sir.  It was in the low port, sir.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You had the MP5 in your hands --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- but it was lowered?

          19   A.  It was lowered down, yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It was not raised at any stage.

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          23   MR THOMAS:  Again, forgive me, Officer, for having to put

          24       this to you but I must: Mark Duggan, at the time he was

          25       shot, was not posing a threat, was he?


                                            85
 

 

 


           1   A.  I believe he was, sir.

           2   Q.  But you do nothing?

           3   A.  No, sir.

           4   Q.  Let me move on.  Can I just ask you this: is the reality

           5       that, when you heard the two shots, you were surprised

           6       that Mark Duggan had been shot?

           7   A.  I had -- I wasn't surprised at all, sir.  I just heard

           8       two shots ... what -- I've not seen a firearm.  I

           9       can't ... account for my officers' threat assessment.

          10   Q.  You have not seen a firearm and let's be clear about

          11       this: had you seen a firearm, you would have raised your

          12       weapon into the aim position?

          13   A.  Not necessarily, sir.

          14   Q.  You agree with this: you hear the two shots, you go --

          15       I think you were by the taxi driver; is that right?

          16   A.  When I've heard the shots, sir, I was just -- I was in

          17       that -- sorry, the diagram isn't up.  I was in the

          18       square that's marked --

          19   Q.  Let's put the diagram back up and you can point it out.

          20   A.  Thank you, sir.  I was in that area marked "A", sir.

          21   Q.  You must have looked in the direction where the shots

          22       were being fired?

          23   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          24   Q.  You would do, wouldn't you.  Would you agree with

          25       this: you don't see anything flying in the air, do you?


                                            86
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, sir.

           2   Q.  No.  Because I think you were asked by Mr Underwood: was

           3       there a distinct period of time between the first shot

           4       and the second shot?

           5   A.  There was a gap, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  There was a gap.  So I would be right in thinking, and

           7       correct me if I've got this wrong, but when you hear the

           8       first shot, you're drawn to it; you would be, wouldn't

           9       you?

          10   A.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  In the gap between shot number one and shot number two,

          12       when you're looking in that general direction, you don't

          13       see anything fly overhead, do you?

          14   A.  I don't see anything, sir, no.

          15   Q.  No.  In fact, when you eventually get to where Duggan

          16       is, on the ground, with some of your colleagues there,

          17       there is no weapon by Mark Duggan's body, is there?

          18   A.  No, sir.

          19   Q.  The weapon, it is said, is found some 10 to 20 feet away

          20       over the fence on a patch of grass.

          21   A.  That is what I was told, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  Can I come on to one final topic and then I'm done.  Can

          23       we go back to your witness statement, please.  This is

          24       the witness statement at CS219.

          25           Sir, I say I've nearly finished, subject to --


                                            87
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I know there's something you wanted

           2       to check out, so when you get to where you're nearly

           3       finished then we'll break for our luncheon adjournment

           4       and complete this officer's evidence shortly after the

           5       luncheon break.

           6   MR THOMAS:  On page 219, page 6 of 7 in your typed

           7       statement, about a third of the way down you talk about

           8       the first aid.  You say this, you say -- you deal with

           9       W42, who had been shot and then you say:

          10           "He was now sat in the front passenger seat with an

          11       oxygen mask on."

          12           Do you have that in your statement?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  Then you say this:

          15           "I joined V48 and V53 and began to prep fresh latex

          16       gloves and field dressings."

          17   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  "I could see that the male had received a gunshot wound

          19       to the right side of his chest which had been addressed

          20       with an Asherman seal."

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  "I could also see a second wound to his right bicep and

          23       the right-hand side of his chest.  There was a large

          24       amount of blood on the male's chest which was coming

          25       from the top of the Asherman seal.  As V53 gave chest


                                            88
 

 

 


           1       compressions and V48 gave breaths I wiped away excess

           2       blood from the male's chest and told V53 that he was

           3       doing well and to keep going.  V53 asked me to check for

           4       a pulse and I took a very weak pulse from the left side

           5       of the male's neck.  I stated that I believed I could

           6       feel a pulse and for them to continue."

           7           Then you say this:

           8           "I continued to assist with first aid until we were

           9       joined by LAS.  I again remained and assisted in

          10       retrieving kit from the LAS vehicle and applying direct

          11       pressure to the chest injuries."

          12           Then you say:

          13           "V53 then left the scene and myself, W70 and V48

          14       assisted LSA [the London Ambulance Service]."

          15           Pause there.  That's quite a detailed account in

          16       relation to the first aid.  Yes?

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  This is done at a time, correct me if I am wrong, when

          19       you have had your 48-hour break between the initial

          20       account, you have had your refreshments, you have had

          21       your sleep?

          22   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  This has been done at an opportunity where you have sat

          24       down, you have thought it through, you have told us "by

          25       this time I could remember there was definitely two


                                            89
 

 

 


           1       shots"; correct?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  You're trying to be helpful with the detail in this

           4       witness statement; correct?

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  Is this account, as to who was doing what, who was

           7       assisting Mr Duggan; is it correct?  Is it the truth?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  Anything you want to add to it?

          10   A.  No, sir.

          11   Q.  No.  Because the one thing that we can be clear about,

          12       from your account, Q63 -- you know who he is?

          13   A.  Yes, sir, I do.

          14   Q.  He wasn't involved in this, in providing assistance, was

          15       he?

          16   A.  I don't recall him being there, sir.  However, there

          17       were people on the footway.  There may have been people

          18       on the footway with me.  I can't recall, I was

          19       concentrating solely on first aid.

          20   Q.  Forgive me, so there's no clash here.  I am not saying

          21       Q63 was not on the footway -- he was on the footway, he

          22       was right by the cab -- but what I'm putting to you is

          23       in your detailed account, the first detailed account

          24       that you give, you don't have Q63 come and offering

          25       assistance to you and your colleagues, do you?


                                            90
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, sir, I don't.

           2   Q.  Because that didn't happen, did it?

           3   A.  I don't recall seeing him, sir.  Like I said, I was

           4       concentrating.

           5   MR THOMAS:  Sir, subject to that one point that needs to be

           6       checked, I think that's all I want to ask.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  I think we will have

           8       a break at this point because there are one or two

           9       things I need to say at this stage.  What I would say

          10       then to the witness is if you would like to leave us

          11       firstly, please do not discuss your evidence with

          12       anybody and be ready to finish off your evidence at

          13       2 o'clock.  If you would like to go firstly, I will ask

          14       for the cameras off, please.

          15                   (The witness left the court)

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Members of the jury, let me just

          17       address you for a short while, a few moments.  Thank you

          18       actually for your question, which I think now may have

          19       been answered, even though I have not raised it with the

          20       barristers, but I will raise it again with them when you

          21       leave us in a few moments' time.

          22           I just thought it might be a good opportunity, as it

          23       looks as though we are certainly probably more now than

          24       halfway through the evidence, there are a few weeks to

          25       go yet, but we are at a stage where it might be quite


                                            91
 

 

 


           1       good for me just to repeat some of the warnings that

           2       I had to give you at the beginning.  I know that you're

           3       hopefully being very careful about it.

           4           But I'm sure, as we go on, more and more people,

           5       certainly at your home or in your social life or perhaps

           6       at the work that you are not going to at the moment or

           7       studies, or whatever it may be, are becoming aware that

           8       you are sitting on a jury and indeed sitting on this

           9       jury in this Inquest.

          10           It's only going to be natural that people are going

          11       to want to ask you about it, or indeed that you might

          12       talk about it.  As I said to you right at the beginning,

          13       so, so very important for you, please, not to discuss

          14       the case and the evidence that you're hearing with

          15       anyone else.

          16           You've got the security of being able to talk about

          17       it within the 11 of you, so when the 11 of you are

          18       together, you are able to discuss matters, that's only

          19       right and proper, although, again, I would ask you,

          20       please, not to come to any conclusions about anything

          21       until, obviously, you have heard all the evidence and

          22       heard what I have to say to you in my summing-up in due

          23       course.

          24           But please, please, what I'm really asking you to do

          25       is do the very best you cannot to discuss matters about


                                            92
 

 

 


           1       this case with anyone else outside the 11 of you on the

           2       jury.  It's so very, very important that should be

           3       the case.

           4           What I will then do is ask you then to leave us for

           5       a moment, be back at 2.00 and I will just discuss the

           6       one or two questions you have sent me.

           7           So we'll meet again at 2 o'clock, please, thank you.

          


                                            93
 

 

 


           5   (1.00 pm)

           6

           7                     (The short adjournment)

           8   (2.00 pm)

          11                  (In the presence of the jury)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will have the witness back then,

          13       please.

          14                (The witness returned into court)

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We now have

          16       R68 back in the witness box so we can have the cameras

          17       back on.  You are still under the oath you took this

          18       morning and we are now going to complete the questions

          19       from Mr Thomas.

          20   MR THOMAS:  Thank you.  R68, I want to deal with two short

          21       matters and then I finish my questioning of you.

          22           The first relates to what you said earlier on.  We

          23       are going to check it over the transcript, okay?

          24   A.  Yes, sir.

          25   Q.  Can I read back --

 

                                            97
 

 


           1   A.  Certainly, sir.

           2   Q.  -- what you said earlier on.  So in answer to

           3       Mr Underwood, you said:

           4           "At that time, sir, I wasn't entirely sure two shots

           5       had been fired.  We are -- when we have -- when we

           6       receive training to into the post-deployment, we are

           7       sort of -- we are told basically not to say the amount

           8       of shots that have been fired.  I wanted to give the

           9       best evidence I could and, at that time, it wasn't clear

          10       to me that two shots had been fired.  It's only a bit

          11       later on when we've sat and -- I've sat and thought

          12       about it."

          13           Then Mr Underwood puts this to you:

          14           "Question: Sat and talked about it?

          15           "Answer: Pardon, sir?

          16           "Question: And sat and talked about it?

          17           "Answer: No, sir.  At that time -- in my mind,

          18       honestly, I thought -- 'I've heard a couple of shots'

          19       but at that time I couldn't be 100 per cent sure, sir."

          20           All right?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  That's what you said.  I think I put to you that you've

          23       sat and talked about it but you didn't say "talked", you

          24       said "thought", all right?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                            98
 

 

 


           1   Q.  But, I still want to look at that passage and go back to

           2       the correction you made.

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  Because what you were saying, you say:

           5           "It's only a bit later on, when we've sat and --"

           6           That's when you did the correction.  So I come back

           7       to the point because the point remains the same.

           8           This whole thing about knowing the number of shots

           9       and putting in the number of shots is when you were all

          10       sitting around together, that's why you used the plural;

          11       is that right or is that not right?

          12   A.  We were sat in the same room, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Yes, but, you see, Mr Underwood was asking you the

          14       question: why did you change your evidence, why did you

          15       change it from your initial account saying "shots" to

          16       "two shots" in your later account?  You begin to say

          17       "It's when we've sat" and then you correct yourself and

          18       I'm suggesting you slipped up then; do you follow?

          19   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  Is that right --

          21   A.  No -- sorry, sir.

          22   Q.  -- is it right that the way you decided on two shots was

          23       because you were all sitting round and you were all

          24       discussing it, that's why you've used the plural,

          25       "we've".


                                            99
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, sir that's not the case at all.

           2   Q.  Can I deal with the last point then I will sit down and

           3       shut up?

           4   A.  Thank you, sir.

           5   Q.  It's this: out of the officers who were normally in your

           6       team, because I think you were -- not everybody on that

           7       deployment was from your team.

           8   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  Can you just name the officers who were normally in your

          10       team for me again?

          11   A.  W70 and V53.

          12   Q.  So W70 and V53 and yourself were all in the same team.

          13       Just help me with this final issue.  The other

          14       officers -- the firearms team units, you're quite the

          15       small network of officers, aren't you?  You basically

          16       work alongside each other, even if another member is not

          17       in your team, you all know each other, don't you?

          18   A.  Yes, sir, we do.

          19   MR THOMAS:  That's all I ask.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's see if we have some questions

          21       from any of the other advocates here.

          22   MS LE FEVRE:  No, thank you, sir.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

          24   MR BUTT:  No.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?


                                           100
 

 

 


           1   MR GLASSON:  No, sir.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern, then?

           3   MR STERN:  I do have a few.

           4                      Questions by MR STERN

           5   MR STERN:  Could you just look at CS0226.  I want to follow

           6       through what happened in a very short period of time as

           7       you've told us.

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  This is a statement that you made a little later on when

          10       you were asked to clarify various matters by the IPCC.

          11       I think what you put in the third line down is:

          12           "The male exited from the vehicle quickly and due to

          13       the dynamic nature of the deployment I'm unable to

          14       clarify as to what extent he was out of the vehicle when

          15       I saw him.  I was aware, however, that he did have both

          16       feet on the footway when I first saw him.  I am also

          17       unable to clarify the position of the male's body or the

          18       position of his arms as he got out of the vehicle as he

          19       was upright when I saw him.  I am also unable to confirm

          20       if he touched the vehicle as he exited.  In my opinion

          21       the male was in control of his movements and none of his

          22       actions gave the appearance of being out of control."

          23           Can I ask you, when you talk about that aspect, was

          24       that at the time which you had just got out of your

          25       vehicle?


                                           101
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  We now know, as you have told us, that you then

           3       travelled towards the minicab.

           4   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           5   Q.  If we look at your plan, CE0264 -- I say "your plan",

           6       obviously the only bits you have put in are the "A" and

           7       "B", I think.

           8   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  "A" area is where you've got to, having got out of the

          10       vehicle and looked across towards B, between the minicab

          11       and the Charlie vehicle, and I think you told us you saw

          12       Mark Duggan at that point.

          13   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  At that point, approximately how long are we talking?

          15       Are we talking about a split second there, a second,

          16       more than that?

          17   A.  It would have been a split second, sir.

          18   Q.  So we need to bear that in mind, that's what we're

          19       talking about.  At that time, I think you have described

          20       him as smiling; so you could see his face?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  You described, if we want to go back to the bit that my

          23       learned friend Mr Thomas referred you to at page 217,

          24       just in case anyone wants to refresh their memory of it,

          25       right at the foot of that page, you could see his right


                                           102
 

 

 


           1       hand inside his left side -- sorry, you could not see is

           2       his hand but his right hand was inside his left-hand

           3       side --

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  -- at about waist height?

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  Going back to this plan at 264, sorry to move around so

           8       many documents, does it follow that you standing in

           9       position A, that Mark Duggan then was, I won't say

          10       exactly face on to you but at the split second you saw,

          11       that he was almost facing on to you?

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the smiling second?

          14   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          15   MR STERN:  Because what you've told us is you could see his

          16       right palm inside his left side, so obviously you must

          17       have been able to see both his right and his left side

          18       and the front of him --

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  -- and his face obviously you told us about.  At that

          21       point, as I understand it, you looked away.  If we look

          22       at your statement at CS217, at the last few lines, you

          23       say:

          24           "He appeared to be trying to pull an item from his

          25       waistband and had to use his left hand to assist him."


                                           103
 

 

 


           1           You have spoken about this lolloping sort of action

           2       and holding onto his jacket with his left hand.

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  Just so we're clear about that, that was something that

           5       you put in your statement on 7 August?

           6   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  At that time, there was obviously no analysis of his

           8       jacket --

           9   A.  No, sir.

          10   Q.  -- or none that we --

          11   A.  None that I was aware of, sir, no.

          12   Q.  All right.  Because the jury -- I just mark this up,

          13       I do not want to make a comment, but the jury have

          14       already heard some aspects of the evidence in relation

          15       to the jacket and where the bullet holes were and I just

          16       make that as a marker rather than --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am sure they are aware of that,

          18       that's fine.

          19   MR STERN:  Thank you.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This second statement you made:

          21       22 May --

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- 2012.  The first one was

          24       7 August 2011.

          25   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.


                                           104
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

           2   MR STERN:  Thank you.  Can I just go back to 217 because

           3       I just want to follow on, so we have the chronology of

           4       this short period of time.  You've got him left hand to

           5       assist him, slow lolloping run, which everybody has

           6       asked you about and I don't need to go through that

           7       again with you:

           8           "I could see V53 on the footway running towards him

           9       with his MP5 up in the aim.  I could see W70 behind him

          10       about an arm's length behind V53."

          11           Does that mean that you were looking at them or is

          12       this out of your peripheral vision, as I think --

          13   A.  I cannot say with definite certainty.  More likely it

          14       would have been out of my periphery, sir.

          15   Q.  "I could see other officers moving up behind the

          16       subject.  I could still hear shouts from my colleagues

          17       but I'm unsure of what was shouted.  I quickly looked up

          18       and assessed there were adequate officers to detain the

          19       subject I could only see W56 at the driver's side of the

          20       vehicle."

          21           Does that follow again that, all in a very short

          22       period of time, you divert your eyes to W56 at the

          23       driver's side of the minicab vehicle, you mean?

          24   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  Then you make the decision, as you have told us, to move


                                           105
 

 

 


           1       down --

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  -- towards the driver's sides and deal with the driver

           4       of the minicab?

           5   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have no recollection of, I think

           7       it's R31, who got out of the front passenger seat of the

           8       Bravo car and had come down to your box B.

           9   A.  I don't recall, sir.  There may have been people moving

          10       around but there were a lot of people moving.  I don't

          11       recall seeing anyone else.  I remember seeing V53, W70

          12       and then focusing on the officer that was by the

          13       driver's side of the vehicle but I don't recall seeing

          14       anyone else, sir.

          15   MR STERN:  That is a point I wanted to ask you about.

          16       Obviously something that happens in a second or so, what

          17       is your focus?  Because obviously none of us have been

          18       trained in this way.  What is it that you actually focus

          19       on.  Are you looking, "Oh, there's R31, there's W56,

          20       there's V53"; how does it work?

          21   A.  All I'm focusing on, sir, is I have glanced over, I have

          22       seen Mr Duggan, I can see there's numerous officers on

          23       the pavement.  I am very much aware that the driver

          24       is -- he's still an unknown risk, he has not got anyone

          25       to deal with him so --


                                           106
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Looking at it overall, what are you focusing on?  Are

           2       you focusing on the public safety, the safety of

           3       officers, the safety of yourself or is it nothing to do

           4       with that?

           5   A.  It's the focus or predominantly the safety of my

           6       colleagues and myself and members of the public.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are also focusing on a gun,

           8       aren't you?

           9   A.  I've not seen a gun, sir, no.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You've not seen a gun, but if there

          11       was a gun, you would be focusing on it.

          12   A.  I think I would have been, sir, yes.

          13   MR STERN:  Could we look at CE079, it's a photograph we have

          14       looked at before and it's fairly innocuous.  This is the

          15       scene.  We can see Q63 with the camera; do you remember

          16       Q63 filming?

          17   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  Do you know what he was doing before that or not?

          19   A.  I don't, sir, no.

          20   Q.  Let me ask you: we can see -- I think yours is a better

          21       copy than the copy I've got -- that there's a number of

          22       medi-packs there.

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  Do you know how they got there?

          25   A.  I don't, sir.  I believe one was taken from the rear of


                                           107
 

 

 


           1       the Bravo car but I can't account for the other ones,

           2       sir.

           3   Q.  When the medi-packs are taken out in that way, are there

           4       people who give assistance to giving the material from

           5       the medi-pack or do people --

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was that what you were doing?

           8   A.  Predominantly, sir, yes.  I wanted to assist my two

           9       colleagues that were giving first aid but on the same

          10       way I didn't want to get in the way and I was aware that

          11       they would need kit from the medic bag.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where did your medic bag come from

          13       that you had by you.

          14   A.  I couldn't tell you, sir, sorry.  Each car has

          15       an identical medic bag in the rear.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't get that?

          17   A.  It was already there.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It was already there?

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   MR STERN:  Do you know who gave first aid to W42 or not?

          21   A.  I don't, sir.

          22   MR STERN:  Thank you very much those were all the questions.

          23               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What you can remember Q63 doing is

          25       the filming?


                                           108
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In answer to some enquiry from the

           3       jury, we will be able to help you a bit more as to how

           4       much of the scene has been sanitised.  There is some,

           5       I think, blood stains on the pavement that might have

           6       been in that photograph.  I know you have asked me

           7       a question about that and we'll let you have some more

           8       details about that in due course, all right.  Thank you.

           9           Let me -- I do not think I have any further

          10       questions now.

          11           Mr Underwood anything?

          12               Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Just a couple of matters if I may.

          14           Sorry, can I just get clear, Officer, your movements

          15       when you got out of the car.  You told the jury when

          16       I was asking you questions that you stood by your car

          17       door and you described what you saw of Mr Duggan and his

          18       lolloping run --

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  -- and you moved your attention to the driver of the

          21       minicab?

          22   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  Then you heard the shots and then looked back quickly

          24       and saw Mr Duggan, as we now know him to be.  Had you

          25       moved during that period or not?


                                           109
 

 

 


           1   A.  Sorry, sir?

           2   Q.  Had you moved during that period or not?

           3   A.  When I had started to move forward, sir, yes.

           4   Q.  You had got to the front of your car, do you think, or

           5       beyond that?

           6   A.  I was somewhere within that square marked "A", sir, on

           7       that map.

           8   Q.  Thank you.  Just to be clear.  We've all been looking

           9       since I asked you questions, at CS217, it's part of your

          10       first statement, that is the statement of 7 August.  Let

          11       me get this clear, if I may, it's just over halfway down

          12       that page.  What you said on there was:

          13           "I secured the vehicle.  I could hear W70 and V53

          14       deploying from my car.  I opened my car door and quickly

          15       got out.  As I stood up alongside my open driver's door

          16       I saw an IC3 male getting out of the rear passenger side

          17       of the vehicle.  The open rear door was a sliding door

          18       and slid open fully."

          19           What you're saying now is those are wrong are they?

          20       You did not see a male getting out of the rear passenger

          21       side of the vehicle; is that right?

          22   A.  No, sir, in a further statement I have submitted later

          23       on, I've been asked by the IPCC to clarify that point.

          24       When I have then clarified that point I have stated that

          25       the first time I've seen Mr Duggan, both feet were on


                                           110
 

 

 


           1       the footway.

           2   Q.  When you say in here "The open rear door was a sliding

           3       door and slid open fully", again you could not have seen

           4       that from where you were?

           5   A.  I did not see the door slide open, sir, but from where

           6       I was, I could see -- it appeared to me that it was slid

           7       open as far as it could go.

           8   Q.  How could you see that?

           9   A.  I have the privilege to be quite tall, sir.  I was able

          10       to see where -- from where I was, the door had come back

          11       alongside the passenger side of the vehicle and I could

          12       see the rear corner of the sliding door.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you see it move?

          14   A.  No, sir, I didn't, no.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It was open as far as you could see?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Right.  The only other matter I want to ask

          18       you about, Officer, is something Mr Thomas put to you

          19       this morning.  He was asking you questions about the

          20       point at which you switched your attention from

          21       Mr Duggan first to the taxi driver.

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  You said:

          24           "... and I don't doubt for a second that my

          25       colleagues were in any danger."


                                           111
 

 

 


           1           Mr Thomas said a little while later:

           2           "You said you didn't think your colleagues were in

           3       any danger."

           4           We are all using negatives and double negatives

           5       here.  Can I just get clear from you whether you thought

           6       your colleagues were or were not in danger when V53 and

           7       W70 were on the pavement with Mr Duggan and you switched

           8       your attention to the taxi driver?

           9   A.  Sir, I apologise.  What I actually -- what I mean is

          10       that I felt that my officers -- my colleagues that were

          11       on the footway were able to deal with the threat

          12       Mr Duggan was posing.  There was no need for me to join

          13       them, as it were, sir.

          14   Q.  Very well.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You yourself didn't feel personally

          16       threatened by anything that you saw?

          17   A.  No, sir.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No.

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's all I want to ask, thank you.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much then.  That does

          21       complete your evidence.  Thank you very much for coming

          22       to assist us in this.  You are free now to go and, as

          23       I say to everybody, please do not discuss the evidence

          24       that you have just given until matters are all over.

          25   A.  Thank you very much, sir.


                                           112
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           2                      (The witness withdrew)

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  W39 now next, please.

           4                           W39 (sworn)

           5                   (The witness was anonymised)

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you would

           7       like to have a seat then.  The cameras are back on and

           8       Mr Underwood will ask you some questions.

           9                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Officer.

          11   A.  Hello.

          12   Q.  My name's Underwood and I'm counsel to the Inquest and

          13       I'll start the questions going.

          14           Can I ask you to look at a list and look down to see

          15       W39?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  Is that your name against it?

          18   A.  It is, yes.

          19   Q.  Thank you.  I want to ask you about events of

          20       4 August 2011.  Can you start, please, by telling us how

          21       long you've been a policeman?

          22   A.  At that point or now?

          23   Q.  At that point?

          24   A.  At that point, 11 years.

          25   Q.  How long had you been in CO19?


                                           113
 

 

 


           1   A.  Six and a half years, I think.

           2   Q.  Of that six and a half years, how long had you been in

           3       TST?

           4   A.  Three and a half years.

           5   Q.  Thank you.

           6   A.  Three years, sorry, three years.

           7   Q.  That's near enough, thank you.  I want to ask about

           8       4 August, as I say.  Were you posted to the Bravo

           9       vehicle that day?

          10   A.  I was, yes.

          11   Q.  In which position?

          12   A.  Rear seat passenger.

          13   Q.  What were you armed with?

          14   A.  I was armed with my personal Glock, which is my sidearm,

          15       my MP5, which is my carbine, and I also had access to

          16       a Hatton gun, which is a shortened shotgun for deflation

          17       of tyres.

          18   Q.  We know that your teams were en route from Leman Street

          19       to Quicksilver when some intelligence came in, you went

          20       to Quicksilver and were fairly quickly moved off to the

          21       Leyton area; is all that true?

          22   A.  It is true, yes.

          23   Q.  I want to pick up the story then, please, when we get to

          24       state amber?

          25   A.  Okay.


                                           114
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Were you personally aware of the minicab that was the

           2       subject vehicle?

           3   A.  I had heard over the radio, yes.

           4   Q.  Had you seen it by that stage?

           5   A.  Before?

           6   Q.  Amber.

           7   A.  Amber, yes.  I believe it was Blackhorse Road.

           8   Q.  I dare say you've been reading transcripts and picked

           9       up --

          10   A.  I have, yes.

          11   Q.  -- the business of whether it was silver, bronze, gold

          12       or something else?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Your notebook, your first entry in your EAB, does not

          15       mention a colour; do you accept that?

          16   A.  It doesn't, no.

          17   Q.  Were you conscious of a particular colour for this

          18       minicab while you were on the road?

          19   A.  No, no.  We would have known what the surveillance car

          20       was and it would have been put up on the radio how many

          21       cars in front of that it was and it would have been

          22       indicated by the index of the vehicle.  I wasn't --

          23       I think it might have come over the radio on the

          24       commentary it was bronze or gold.

          25   Q.  We know that your convoy followed the vehicle and there


                                           115
 

 

 


           1       came a point when state red was called.  Can you tell

           2       us, please, what you saw from state red being called?

           3   A.  State red was called, the Alpha vehicle initiated the

           4       overtake on Ferry Lane.  Initially went to pull in front

           5       of the vehicle but it wasn't yielding, as such.  If

           6       I can describe it with my hands, the driver of Alpha

           7       pulled in maybe two or three times to pinch it to a stop

           8       (indicates).  Being in the Bravo vehicle, we pulled

           9       alongside and as everything come to a stop I deployed

          10       out of Bravo.

          11   Q.  Did you hear any sirens going off?

          12   A.  There was, yes.  I think it's in my statement, there was

          13       definitely at least two sets because they overlapped.

          14       They didn't go off straightaway.  As it wasn't yielding

          15       the first or second time, I heard the sirens go off to

          16       indicate to the driver we were the police.

          17   Q.  Do you know which cars used the sirens?

          18   A.  I don't know, I think ours might have but there was

          19       definitely overlapping so there was more than one.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You thought the sirens went off

          21       before the minicab actually yielded to a stop then?

          22   A.  I think the first weave in didn't cause him to stop, so

          23       I think it might have gone on the second or third pinch

          24       but it went in to alert the driver to stop, because he

          25       wasn't --


                                           116
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The sirens were on then?

           2   A.  The sirens were definitely on prior to the -- as the

           3       stop going in, yes.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  As the stop was going in and your car was

           5       alongside the minicab, could you see inside it?

           6   A.  I couldn't see from the rear passenger.  From where

           7       I was, I couldn't see in.  It was slightly higher and

           8       I think it had darker windows.

           9   Q.  Did anybody say anything in your car?

          10   A.  R31 said he thought that the occupant in the back was

          11       going to leg it, I think it was his words.

          12   Q.  Okay, what happened next?

          13   A.  We come to a stop, I got out the rear of Bravo on the

          14       offside, come round the back of Bravo and as I'm coming

          15       between the Charlie vehicle -- the corridor between the

          16       Charlie vehicle and the taxi, Mr Duggan come across me,

          17       as in my line of sight --

          18   Q.  Can we just stop there?  Let's have a look at a plan.

          19       It will come up on screen, CE268.  Is that a plan drawn

          20       by you?

          21   A.  I don't believe so, no.

          22   Q.  That's not 268, that's why.  For once we have

          23       a technical glitch, forgive me.  (Pause)

          24           Is that your plan?

          25   A.  (Pause)


                                           117
 

 

 


           1           W39.  Yes, sir, it is.

           2   Q.  We can see "A" between the minicab and the BMW; is that

           3       the area you are describing you being in?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  Did you see R31 or Q63 there?

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  You say you saw Mr Duggan; did you recognise Mr Duggan

           8       for a start?

           9   A.  No.

          10   Q.  So you saw a person who you now know to be Mr Duggan;

          11       would that be fair?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Tell us carefully please and in your words what you saw

          14       him doing.

          15   A.  Came round the back of Bravo and as I come round the

          16       back of Bravo towards that corridor, where it's got "A",

          17       I saw a figure come from my right to my left, across me

          18       (indicates), he wasn't quite sprinting but he wasn't

          19       quite walking, it was in between.  He was definitely

          20       moving quicker than a walk but not quite a run, only

          21       kind of maybe a second or two.  He's come across me and

          22       then I've seen a muzzle flash on my left-hand side and

          23       shots fired.

          24   Q.  Could you see the person's left arm?

          25   A.  I could see his arm.


                                           118
 

 

 


           1   Q.  The left --

           2   A.  The left arm, yes.

           3   Q.  Not the hand?

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  Do you know why you couldn't see the hand?

           6   A.  I don't.  As I said, I only see him for one or two

           7       seconds and my recollection at the time, when I wrote

           8       this statement as well, was I could just see the left

           9       side of him and possibly some of the back, but when

          10       I was asked further to clarify on his hand I just don't

          11       recall seeing his hand.

          12   Q.  Do I take it you couldn't see his right arm at all?

          13   A.  I could not see any of his right side at all.

          14   Q.  Could you see how his jacket was going, how it was being

          15       worn?

          16   A.  Again, I was asked that later on by the IPCC there was

          17       nothing that I can recall was unusual in the way he wore

          18       his jacket.

          19   Q.  When the muzzle flashes went off in your peripheral

          20       vision, were you still focusing on the person in front

          21       of you?

          22   A.  I was, yes.

          23   Q.  If his left hand lower jacket had got up towards the top

          24       right of his chest, if you see what I'm doing --

          25   A.  Yes, I can see that.


                                           119
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- would you have seen that at the time the muzzle

           2       flashes went?

           3   A.  I don't recall seeing that.

           4   Q.  If you had, were you in a position to have seen that?

           5   A.  I would say it was so quick between him coming to my

           6       vision and the shots going off I didn't have time to

           7       study it, I don't recall that.  It could have happened

           8       but I personally didn't see anything which I would

           9       consider to be out of the ordinary.

          10   Q.  Would you have seen a large self-loading pistol fly

          11       through the air, if he had thrown it with his right arm?

          12   A.  If it had gone above?

          13   Q.  Yes?

          14   A.  I may have seen it, yes.  But I didn't.

          15   Q.  I am not suggesting you did.  I should have asked in two

          16       stages.  First of all, you didn't see it, that's clear?

          17   A.  I didn't see a firearm.

          18   Q.  What I'm asking is whether your viewpoint, and whether

          19       your concentration on the man would have allowed you to

          20       see it if it happened; do you follow me?

          21   A.  Again, I was concentrating on him.  I didn't see

          22       anything.

          23   Q.  Did you hear anybody shouting?

          24   A.  I heard lots of shouting, yes.

          25   Q.  Can you recall any particular words?


                                           120
 

 

 


           1   A.  Our training basically dictates, all the time since I've

           2       been a firearms officer, when you do these type of

           3       option 2, or hard stops, as you call them, everybody

           4       shouts "Armed police" as you close the vehicle down

           5       prior to even seeing anyone.  It's just a verbal

           6       stunning.  There was shouting going on, including

           7       myself.  I cannot say what was shouted but it's what

           8       I would have heard on a standard vehicle stop.

           9   Q.  Would it be reasonable to say if you heard anything out

          10       of the ordinary you would have remembered it?

          11   A.  I would do, yes.  It was what I would have expected to

          12       hear.

          13   Q.  You have just described the man running, you've

          14       described the muzzle flash what happened then?

          15   A.  I saw who I now know to be Mr Duggan -- I didn't know at

          16       the time -- as the muzzle flash went off and I heard

          17       shots -- can I stand up?

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.

          19   A.  I've described it as winded.  The best way to describe

          20       it is he's been punched in the stomach, or something.

          21       I see him go -- crouched forward, like that (indicates).

          22   Q.  You have just described -- you appreciate you are not

          23       being shown in the cameras for upstairs, so I'm

          24       describing now what you have just done.  You bent

          25       forward and crooked your elbows and brought your hands


                                           121
 

 

 


           1       up to your chest; is that right?

           2   A.  Almost like -- I dunno, everyone's been winded as

           3       a child or something -- when you crouch in and bring it

           4       in.  That's the best way I can describe it.

           5   Q.  Let's see if you can help us even further.  Can you say

           6       whether Mr Duggan started to do that between the shots

           7       or only after the second shot?

           8   A.  I would say it's kind of all together, the shots were

           9       pretty close together and I would say my recollection is

          10       he's crouched after the shots.  I wouldn't say there was

          11       a period between each one where there was a significant

          12       different movement.  My recollection is there were shots

          13       and that was his reaction to those shots.

          14   Q.  It's not a trick question.  This is again because I'm

          15       describing what you're doing, you've described a motion

          16       which involved both hands; could you see both hands at

          17       that stage?

          18   A.  I couldn't.  I could see his left hand coming -- no

          19       I cannot, I can't remember his right hand.  My

          20       recollection is that (indicates) but obviously with his

          21       left hand just coming up.

          22   Q.  You are seeing him side on, more or less?

          23   A.  I'm seeing him side on but if I was to describe the

          24       motion it would be that (indicates).

          25   Q.  Thank you.  How far did he go?  Did he hit the ground?


                                           122
 

 

 


           1   A.  I see him bend over and then there were two officers to

           2       my left and they started to close him down, which is

           3       closing the space between him, as you would expect --

           4       and I don't recall how he got to the floor or when he

           5       got to the floor.

           6   Q.  Were you still concentrating on him through all of this

           7       period or did your attention go off to something else at

           8       that stage?

           9   A.  As I first saw him I was covering him, shouting "Armed

          10       police".  The shots went off, I see him -- it looked to

          11       me -- I assumed he had been shot, that's my first

          12       impression.  I was covering him (indicates).

          13   Q.  Again you're motioning as if you're --

          14   A.  A motion -- sorry, like a MP5, so I'm covering him, the

          15       threat.  I see the two officers start to close him down

          16       and then at some point around that time Q63 informed me

          17       that he believed W42 had been shot and to assist with

          18       that.

          19   Q.  Can you help us with where Q63 was when he did that?

          20   A.  The first time I saw him, other than being the driver

          21       before I got out, was when he told me W42 had been shot.

          22   Q.  Going back to that plan CE268, can you help us with

          23       where Q63 was when he told you this?

          24   A.  I would suggest the speed I got out of the car and him

          25       being the driver, he would have been behind me.


                                           123
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You cannot remember but you're assuming.

           2   A.  He would have been behind me.

           3   Q.  Where had you got to by this stage?

           4   A.  Somewhere where that box A -- I was moving as it all

           5       happened, I didn't stop.  So as that's happening over

           6       that one or two seconds I'm still moving so I'm

           7       somewhere in that box A.

           8   Q.  It had not reached the kerb?

           9   A.  I certainly hadn't reached the kerb when the shots went

          10       off.

          11   Q.  You think Q63 was behind you, as best you can recall?

          12   A.  Just, logically speaking, I hadn't seen him but I can't

          13       see how he would have been in front of me.

          14   Q.  Did you then see W42?

          15   A.  Only after Q63.

          16   Q.  Once Q63 had said "I think W42 has been hit", could you

          17       see W42 from where you were?

          18   A.  Well, I was still -- yes, by the time I spoke to Q63

          19       I was on the pavement.  I turned round and saw him, then

          20       went and dealt with him.

          21   Q.  Is he in the area marked "C" on the plan there?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  What did you do?

          24   A.  I went to W42, he said he believed he'd been shot, or

          25       words to that effect.  I saw a hole on his left side


                                           124
 

 

 


           1       under his top -- on his top, sorry.  I said to him

           2       "I believe you have been shot".  As I was lifting it up

           3       to look under that news kind of drained the colour out

           4       of him, as it were, and his legs went funny, so I kind

           5       of grabbed him and helped him to the ground, and I was

           6       trying to see where there was an entry wound.

           7       I couldn't find one.  So because I couldn't find one

           8       I thought perhaps it had deflected somewhere else.

           9       I called for a medic.

          10   Q.  Did you deal with anybody else, such as the driver of

          11       the minicab?

          12   A.  I dealt with the minicab driver later on.  But not at

          13       that stage.

          14   Q.  What did you do then after dealing with W42?

          15   A.  I believe V53 come over as the medic to assist, he's got

          16       scissors, he can remove his clothing to give a more

          17       thorough examination.  At some point I could see that

          18       Q63 was struggling with our location on the radio,

          19       exactly where it was, and at some point I went back to

          20       where I was sitting where my iPhone was in the car to

          21       get our exact location on the GPS.  I gave it to him and

          22       then went back to assist with W42.

          23   Q.  Right.  I think after the London Ambulance Service and

          24       HEMS people arrived you went back to Leman Street, did

          25       you?


                                           125
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Did anything else significant happen at the scene, as

           3       far as you were concerned?

           4   A.  Only handing the taxi driver over to a Trident squad

           5       officer to sit in a car, so he wasn't sitting in the

           6       road.

           7   Q.  A couple of other matters, something I should have asked

           8       you about when you were describing Mr Duggan and what he

           9       was doing at about the time the muzzle flashes went off.

          10       You say he went forward as if winded and you brought

          11       your hands up to show that at least the left hand you

          12       could see came up close to his chest?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Did you see him flinch one way or the other?

          15   A.  I cannot say I saw his face, I saw it side on

          16       momentarily --

          17   Q.  Did one side of his body flinch away?

          18   A.  No, my recollection is I saw the muzzle flashing and

          19       heard the bang, the shots, and he went forward, I don't

          20       recall any deviation or movement other than that.

          21   Q.  Again, I should have asked you about what sort of time

          22       there was between shots; can you help on that?

          23   A.  I put in my statement that they were distinctly apart

          24       but close together.  I cannot put a -- I cannot say

          25       a difference between a half second, a second, a second


                                           126
 

 

 


           1       and a half, I can't say.

           2   Q.  One other matter I want to ask you about, it's your

           3       notebook entry.  CD14 is where it starts.  It will come

           4       up on the screen.  If we look at page 18 on the screen,

           5       these are the notes you made which are time stamped at

           6       2351 on 4 August.  If we pick up from about eight lines

           7       from the bottom, what you've written, you have said:

           8           "As our vehicle came to a stop I deployed from Bravo

           9       a number of shots were fired.  I saw the subject hit and

          10       W42 had been hit.  First aid was given to both parties.

          11       A short time later we left the scene."

          12           Can you see that line which starts now "a number";

          13       did you have "two" there in the first place and crossed

          14       it out?

          15   A.  I did.  I think I've change it had from "I" to "a".

          16   Q.  Why didn't you put "two shots" in there?

          17   A.  Why didn't I put "two shots"?

          18   Q.  Mm.

          19   A.  Throughout my training, we get postings on the procedure

          20       inputs at training regularly.  If there's more than one

          21       shot and it's recommended you have the -- at least

          22       48 hours to properly articulate what happened, it's to

          23       put "a number of shots" so that you can fully reflect

          24       what happened two days later and not contradict

          25       yourself.  So I believe from what we've been told in


                                           127
 

 

 


           1       training, and that a number of shots didn't quantify

           2       what had happened, to give myself the correct amount of

           3       time to see the full recollection of the whole event not

           4       just that one individually that was sufficient to

           5       explain what I had seen.

           6   Q.  Did you actually need time to recall that it was two

           7       shots?  If somebody had said to you, "Look, how many

           8       shots were there?", would you have said two?

           9   A.  I would have said I thought it was two, yes --

          10       I thought.  That's what we worked (?) right on

          11       an initial account.

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  Wait there, please.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Thomas?

          14                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          15   MR THOMAS:  W39, I represent the loved ones of Mark Duggan.

          16   A.  Sir.

          17   Q.  Why not just simply say in your initial account

          18       "I thought it was two shots"; you could have done that?

          19   A.  I could have done that, sir.

          20   Q.  Why not do that?

          21   A.  I had not been involved in one of these situations

          22       before, a shooting before.  I was 99 per cent sure it

          23       was two shots.  I don't know how I react after the

          24       48 hours rest period before making my recollection.

          25       I believe the number of shots covered that and that's


                                           128
 

 

 


           1       what I've been led to believe in my training, what

           2       covers it.

           3   Q.  Forgive me, even in your training, there would have been

           4       nothing wrong, bearing in mind what you have been told

           5       about rest and all the rest of it, simply putting in

           6       your witness statement, in your initial account

           7       "I believe it may have been two shots"; who could

           8       criticise you for that?

           9   A.  I don't believe I should be criticised for writing

          10       "a number of shots".  I think "a number of shots"

          11       explains exactly what I heard.

          12   Q.  You see, the criticism is, may I suggest, whether or not

          13       there had been conferring, improper conferring, between

          14       you and your colleagues.  That's the issue; do you

          15       follow?

          16   A.  I do follow.  There was no conferring on that statement.

          17   Q.  Let's test that, shall we.  Can we enlarge where the

          18       correction is.  Now, you say that you were writing "I"

          19       and we can see that --

          20   A.  I don't recall writing "I" or "A".  It looks to me like

          21       I've changed it from an "I" to an "A".

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So it looks as though you've changed

          23       it from "I" to "A"?

          24   A.  I don't recall changing that at the time.  It looks like

          25       to me, from my handwriting, I've changed it from an "I"


                                           129
 

 

 


           1       to an "A".

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's meant to be an "A", is it?

           3   A.  It's changed to an "A".  It's an "A" now.

           4   MR THOMAS:  I'm going to suggest to you your initial

           5       explanation for this does not make sense, that you say

           6       that you think that you were writing "I" and then you

           7       changed it to "A".  That's the evidence you gave to

           8       Mr Underwood.

           9   A.  That's what it looks like, yes.

          10   Q.  One moment.  What I'm suggesting to you is -- let's just

          11       run with your initial explanation you have just given to

          12       the jury that you wrote "I", it doesn't work.  If you go

          13       back -- if we pan out and look at the sentence, why

          14       would you be writing "I number of shots"?  It doesn't

          15       make any sense.

          16   A.  It doesn't make -- no, not in that -- no.  There was

          17       a lot of people coming in and out of that office at the

          18       time I was writing that note it's quite plausible and

          19       I do not recall what happened because it's just the

          20       changing of a letter that I could have started the

          21       sentence with I, something has happened, I've gone back

          22       and lost my train of thought.  I don't recall what

          23       happened because it is one letter a long time ago but

          24       that's what it looks like happened.

          25   Q.  I'm suggesting that's not an "I" you were writing


                                           130
 

 

 


           1       a number 2 and then you have written over it to put "a"

           2       because there was discussion between you and your

           3       colleagues not to put the number in?

           4   A.  There was no conferring.  Second of all, I would not

           5       start a sentence with the number 2 anyway and if it was

           6       a number 2 as in the number I would have written

           7       "T-W-O", I wouldn't write number 2 and that isn't

           8       a number 2 because it doesn't look like a number 2.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On that screen that we see there, we

          10       have an example of your capital "A" normally written,

          11       "A short time later", two lines up from the bottom,

          12       three lines above that we have an example of your

          13       capital "I", "I saw the subject" --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- is that right?

          16   A.  Yes, that's what it looks like.  It was initially an "I"

          17       and it's been changed to an "A".  It's exactly what it

          18       looks like.

          19   MR THOMAS:  You see, the "A" that you're referring to is the

          20       block A, the capital A, correct?

          21   A.  I don't know what you're looking at.

          22   Q.  Can we enlarge it again so the officer knows exactly

          23       what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about that

          24       squiggle.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           131
 

 

 


           1   Q.  The "A" you're referring to is the capital A.  You know

           2       what I mean by capital A, as opposed to a small A?

           3   A.  Yes.  I didn't know which one you was comparing it to.

           4   Q.  Now, may I just ask you this.  If we look at your

           5       witness statement -- this initial account, it's some

           6       11 sentences -- I counted them, okay -- that you've

           7       written.

           8   A.  I haven't counted them, I take your word for it, yes.

           9   Q.  I'm telling you, there are 11 sentences here and we can

          10       see -- if we put the notebook back up, we can see how

          11       long it is, just to give the jury an idea.  So that's

          12       the first page, that's the second page; yes?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  If we go to -- how long did it take you to write those

          15       notes?

          16   A.  I haven't got a photocopy of the times.

          17   Q.  Let me help you --

          18   A.  If you've got the original --

          19   Q.  If we go back to page 16 and go to the top of the page?

          20   A.  30 minutes.

          21   Q.  Half an hour.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  What were you doing that half an hour to write 11

          24       sentences, most of the sentences relatively

          25       uncontroversial?


                                           132
 

 

 


           1   A.  As I said, there was people coming in and out of the

           2       office, not where we were, I don't know if it's been

           3       explained to you, it's not split into two, as such, but

           4       there's a seating area where we would have been writing

           5       our notes and another area.  You have to appreciate the

           6       amount of people coming into that office at the time was

           7       a lot.  I cannot recall who was in and out at that time

           8       but there certainly would have been people coming in

           9       where you would have stopped and then gone back to it.

          10   Q.  We can see on page 16 you finish your notes at 11.30.

          11       You know the time stamp that's a couple of minutes away?

          12   A.  It is, yes.

          13   Q.  But if we go to the last page and enlarge it, enlarge it

          14       a bit more if you can, there you go, 23.51.  Why did it

          15       take you 21 minutes to make your way to the time stamp

          16       room when it's a couple of minutes away?

          17   A.  There was no urgency to take it down and stamp it at

          18       that time.  I don't know what happened in that time.  We

          19       were getting tea, we were getting fed, I don't know if

          20       it was then.  There were people coming in and out.

          21       I would have finished it and then taken it down at the

          22       next natural pause.

          23   Q.  W39, the reality is you were all chatting about this.

          24       You were all discussing what you were going to put down

          25       including "Let's not mention the number of shots"?


                                           133
 

 

 


           1   A.  There was no conferring took place.  The only person

           2       I spoke to about that statement was my legal

           3       representative.

           4   Q.  Help me with this --

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What's the purpose of having

           6       a franking stamp on it?

           7   A.  To say when the notes were finished.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So does that purpose get defeated if

           9       there are 20 minutes delays?

          10   A.  I took it down there at the next natural pause, sir,

          11       I don't know what happened in them 21 minutes.  There

          12       certainly wasn't any discussion about those notes in

          13       that 21 minutes.  I finished the book, put down what the

          14       time was and then at the next natural break or whatever

          15       happened, I went down there and stamped.  There was no

          16       conferring, there was certainly no talk about that

          17       statement whatsoever, other than when I spoke to the

          18       solicitor who was there.

          19   MR THOMAS:  May I ask you to deal with this.  You would

          20       agree that the one officer who was not with you and the

          21       rest of your colleagues, was the shooter, V53.

          22   A.  I have not made a note of that but I believe, from

          23       memory, that may have been the case, yes.

          24   Q.  Yes.  You see, you've already told us that you were

          25       99 per cent sure there was two shots but you just wanted


                                           134
 

 

 


           1       to give yourself that little bit of time overnight or

           2       48 hours before you confirmed it; that's what you just

           3       told us, correct?

           4   A.  That's true, sir, yes.

           5   Q.  May I suggest the real reason for not putting the number

           6       of shots is you knew, because you were at the scene and

           7       you knew that Mark Duggan had been shot, you were fully

           8       aware that there were two injuries to Mark Duggan, his

           9       arm and the injury to his chest.  But you also knew that

          10       a colleague had been shot.  So there was the possibility

          11       that three shots may have been discharged; is that the

          12       real reason why you and your colleagues were reluctant

          13       to put down the number of shots on the night?

          14   A.  I wasn't aware how many times Mr Duggan had been hit at

          15       that stage.  I was aware W42 had been hit because of

          16       what he said to me and -- sorry, I cannot recall the

          17       second part of your question.

          18   Q.  My suggestion to you is: the real reason why you and

          19       your colleagues -- let's just focus on you.  You were

          20       reluctant to put the true number of shots down because

          21       you didn't know what V53 was going to say.

          22   A.  Sir, that is ridiculous.

          23   Q.  All right.  Let me move on.

          24           Can we call up, please, your witness statement of

          25       7 August.  It's at page 158, please, in the witness


                                           135
 

 

 


           1       statement bundle.  Can we just go to the last page,

           2       which is 162.  Can we just expand that, please?

           3           This is what you say.  By the time you write this

           4       full statement -- do you see that?

           5   A.  Sorry, sir, this is the typed version, I've seen that.

           6       I am just checking to make sure it's --

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Please check it, yes.

           8   A.  (Pause)

           9           Yes, sir.

          10   MR THOMAS:  By the time you write the detailed account on

          11       7 August, the one officer who is now present with you is

          12       V53.

          13   A.  He was there, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  Yes.  So that's the difference between the 4th and the

          15       7th you have now got V53 sitting in with you?

          16   A.  That's the difference with who was there, yes.

          17   Q.  Secondly, you say this.  Again, if you just follow:

          18           "I conferred with these officers on [the following

          19       matters]: road names, routes, times and chronology."

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  Did you confer on anything else?

          22   A.  No, sir?

          23   Q.  Can you help me with this: your pocket book, what we

          24       have just been looking at, there is no mention, is there

          25       of the colour of the minicab, is there?


                                           136
 

 

 


           1   A.  There isn't, sir, no.

           2   Q.  By the time you make your witness statement, you would

           3       agree with this: there's no doubt about it the minicab

           4       is silver.

           5   A.  I haven't seen it since, sir, no.

           6   Q.  Can we just call up a photo of the minicab, any one will

           7       do.

           8   A.  It looks silver, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  It looks silver, doesn't it, and it is silver?

          10   A.  It is, yes.

          11   Q.  Just help me with this.  There's no mention of the

          12       colour of the minicab in your initial account.  We then

          13       get to the 4th, your detailed account, and if we turn to

          14       page 159, at the bottom, last paragraph, five lines from

          15       the bottom, you describe the minicab as a "gold-coloured

          16       people vehicle"; do you see that?

          17   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  Where do you get the colour gold from?  Because

          19       according to your statement this isn't one of the things

          20       you confer on?

          21   A.  Sir, first of all the things we conferred on was written

          22       on a flip chart, which I believe has been exhibited,

          23       I am not sure who by but I believe -- V59, was it?  Yes.

          24       The colour of the minicab and the index was on that.  We

          25       did confer on that.  It's correct, my statement does not


                                           137
 

 

 


           1       say we conferred on the colour of the minivan, but

           2       everything we conferred on is on that exhibited flip

           3       chart and it is on there.

           4   Q.  All right.  So you put the colour in, not because you

           5       had a memory of it but because that's what you were told

           6       the colour was.

           7   A.  Sir, we conferred on certain items, to set the scene, as

           8       it were, up until the stop went in.  One of those items

           9       would have been the index of the vehicle, and the colour

          10       of the vehicle.  I believe they are on the flip chart

          11       which was exhibited by V59.

          12   Q.  My question was simply, in relation to the colour, that

          13       was an item you conferred on because you had no memory

          14       of it; is that right?

          15   A.  It's not that I had no memory of it, sir.  It was

          16       a selection of facts, as it were, to set the scene which

          17       were written on the flip chart.

          18   Q.  Forgive me, you couldn't have had a memory of it because

          19       if you had a memory of it you would have known the

          20       minicab was silver.

          21   A.  Sir, my recollection was either bronze or gold colour

          22       coming over the surveillance channel, so that was in my

          23       head.  I didn't pay particular attention to the vehicle

          24       other than the index when the stop went in.

          25   Q.  Let me move on.  Let's come to the actual shooting


                                           138
 

 

 


           1       itself, okay?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  I wonder if we can call up, please, from your section 9

           4       statement, page 160, I think it is, page 3 of 5 and if

           5       we can enlarge the last paragraph towards the end of

           6       that and I'm going to take you through this in a second.

           7   A.  Sorry, is this the 7 August one, sir?

           8   Q.  Yes, that's right.  Just help me with this: you are

           9       aware of the following matters before you actually put

          10       in the hard stop.  You're aware that there's

          11       intelligence about Mark Duggan, about him having

          12       a potential firearm, correct?

          13   A.  In possession of a firearm, yes.

          14   Q.  You're aware that the intelligence is to the effect that

          15       he's just very recently picked it up.

          16   A.  I believe in possession of a firearm now; that's all

          17       I recall.

          18   Q.  Okay.  One of the things that you and your colleagues

          19       have been tasked with was to intercept, arrest, retrieve

          20       the firearm?

          21   A.  Intercept the vehicle, yes, sir.

          22   Q.  So that is what's going on in your mind as the job at

          23       hand.

          24   A.  At what stage, sir, when it's gone to amber?

          25   Q.  Yes.


                                           139
 

 

 


           1   A.  When it's gone to amber, arrest phase has been

           2       authorised, I'm expecting to intercept the vehicle and

           3       detain the occupants within, yes.

           4   Q.  That's your mindset.  The strike has been called.  The

           5       hard stop has been put in.  As per your training, you

           6       get out of your vehicle to deal with the situation,

           7       okay?

           8   A.  Sir.

           9   Q.  Just help me with this: I want to come to the point

          10       where you first set eyes on Mark Duggan.  Sorry, I'm

          11       going to have to switch between two things.  Can we call

          12       up, please, the plan you were describing earlier.  It's

          13       just coming up now.  Thank you.

          14           I just want to be clear on your evidence.  W39,

          15       could you just stand up and use your finger, pointing to

          16       the screen if you would, and then Mr Scott will just

          17       mark it.  Can you just -- I want you to indicate where

          18       you were standing at the very first point you see Mark.

          19       Just put your finger --

          20   A.  I cannot say exactly which is why there's a box there.

          21       I would have been somewhere around here (indicates),

          22       where "A" is.

          23   Q.  Again, indicate if you would -- you're between the two

          24       vehicles?

          25   A.  I'm either at the start of that -- I will call that like


                                           140
 

 

 


           1       a corridor.  I'm either at the start of it but still

           2       moving through the incident.  So at some point between

           3       there and there.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Which door did he get out of?

           5   A.  The offside, the --

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Behind the driver's door?

           7   A.  Behind the driver's door, yes, sir.

           8   MR THOMAS:  Again can you use your finger, can you see

           9       there's a C -- is that a B?

          10   A.  That's a B, sir, yes.

          11   Q.  You can see where the C is.  The C is towards the left

          12       of the plan as we look at it, the B is towards the right

          13       of the plan as we look at it.

          14   A.  Sir.

          15   Q.  Indicate for us please where the minicab is, point to

          16       it?

          17   A.  (Indicates).

          18   Q.  Help us.  When you see Mark Duggan, which direction is

          19       he travelling in?

          20   A.  He's coming this way, sir, from the minicab back to

          21       towards Charlie.

          22   Q.  From the minicab travelling right, yes?

          23   A.  As we look at it, yes.

          24   Q.  As we look at it now?

          25   A.  As we look at it, yes.


                                           141
 

 

 


           1   Q.  As you weren't there, it would have been travelling to

           2       your left?

           3   A.  From my right to my left, yes.

           4   Q.  As we're looking at that plan Mark is travelling from

           5       the minicab right?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Just indicate for us where Mark had got to just before

           8       you saw the muzzle flash?

           9   A.  I saw him for a split second, crossed my vision

          10       somewhere in B, is the best I can --

          11   Q.  So, the one thing that you and I can be -- you can sit

          12       down, please.

          13   A.  Thank you.

          14   Q.  The one thing you and I can agree on from your evidence,

          15       he had more or less got past the minicab and was closer

          16       to the Charlie vehicle when you saw the muzzle flash;

          17       would that be right?

          18   A.  My recollection of him was seeing his left side and

          19       I was definitely somewhere in that corridor so he must,

          20       when I first saw him, broken the back of the minicab.

          21   Q.  Again, the question, just stand up one second and point

          22       out where the Charlie vehicle is, so I'm not ...?

          23   A.  (Indicates) I come out of this door, I've --

          24   Q.  I'm asking you --

          25   A.  I'll explain it.


                                           142
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I'm asking you a simple question: where is the Charlie

           2       vehicle?

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You've got to let the witness give

           4       his own evidence.  You say what you want to.

           5   A.  I've come out of this here.  First of all, I've got to

           6       make sure there's no cars coming past to run me over.

           7       As I'm coming round here I have to make sure the Charlie

           8       vehicle has come to a total stop so I don't get squashed

           9       in this.  As I've come somewhere around this area here,

          10       I'm making sure I don't trip over because I'm looking

          11       over my MP5, so I've got to make sure I am not going to

          12       wipe myself out.

          13           At some point, the figure I now know to be Mark

          14       Duggan, crosses my eyeline, coming from the back of the

          15       taxi, and within a split second of me seeing him, or

          16       a second or two, as he comes across, I see the muzzle

          17       flash.

          18   Q.  Sorry, my question was: can you point where the Charlie

          19       vehicle is?

          20   A.  (Indicates).

          21   Q.  Thank you.  You have indicated that Mark Duggan was in

          22       the vicinity of where the "B" is, where you have drawn

          23       the "B" on the plan?

          24   A.  That's my recollection, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  I am just repeating your evidence.  So would you agree,


                                           143
 

 

 


           1       looking at where the Charlie vehicle is and looking at

           2       where you have drawn the "B", he is in the vicinity of

           3       the Charlie vehicle.  He's closer to the Charlie vehicle

           4       than he is to the minicab?

           5   A.  That's my recollection, sir, yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll continue a little more calmly.

           7   MR THOMAS:  Just help me with this.  From when you see Mark

           8       Duggan, you said that you glimpsed him and you heard --

           9       you saw the muzzle flash and you describe the

          10       positioning.  I want to ask you one thing about the

          11       shots.  What you said in relation to the shots when you

          12       were giving evidence earlier on, you said the shots were

          13       pretty close together.

          14   A.  Close together, distinctly apart, yes, sir.

          15   Q.  Again, I'm just repeating the evidence you gave to

          16       Mr Underwood.

          17   A.  I'm just reading what is in my statement, that's what

          18       was written at the time, that's how I recall it.

          19   Q.  Do you want to change the evidence you gave this

          20       afternoon, about 20 minutes ago, that the shots were

          21       about pretty close together?

          22   A.  Sir, I believe that reinforces what's in my statement,

          23       so, yes, I'll go with both.

          24   Q.  The shots were pretty close together?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                           144
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I want to put a series of scenarios to you to see

           2       whether or not you agree with them or not and whether

           3       you can help the jury with them.

           4           The first scenario is this: was there any

           5       significant time between the shots?

           6   A.  Yes, sir, they were close together, distinctly apart --

           7       they were distinctly apart.

           8   Q.  Distinctly apart, okay.  So the first shot you hear, you

           9       saw Mr Duggan, what position was he in?

          10   A.  My recollection, sir, is it's very, very quick as I've

          11       seen him.  He was coming across me I wouldn't say he was

          12       quite sprinting but he wasn't walking, he was faster --

          13   Q.  I understand that.

          14   A.  I'm trying to explain how I've literally broke my

          15       eyeline and then there's two shots and a muzzle flash.

          16       That's how quick it was.  I can't say what position he

          17       was in.  He seemed to be running, for want of a better

          18       word, but not sprinting.

          19   Q.  You think he was upright?

          20   A.  I recall him being upright because I remember the

          21       movement after I believe he was been shot, that he bent

          22       forward.

          23   Q.  Sorry, it's my question.  When I say "what position he

          24       was in", that's what I meant: was he upright?  He was

          25       upright?


                                           145
 

 

 


           1   A.  My recollection, he was upright.

           2   Q.  So then you hear the shots and you distinctly remember

           3       the positioning changing?

           4   A.  After the shots.

           5   Q.  After the shots, yes.  That's all I'm concentrating on.

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  Now, just help me with this: there was a distinct

           8       difference between each shot, you have told us, they

           9       were close together but you could distinguish between

          10       each shot, correct?

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  Between shot 1 and shot 2, was there any significant

          13       difference in Mr Duggan's positioning?

          14   A.  I don't recall any change in position between the two

          15       shots.

          16   Q.  Thank you.  Because, on your evidence, and I am just

          17       concentrating just on your evidence, you don't have Mark

          18       Duggan going backwards, do you, at any stage; do you

          19       follow?

          20   A.  I don't recall Mark Duggan going backwards, no.

          21   Q.  No.  Can I break that down in relation to what I'm

          22       asking you.  Firstly, you don't say that, between the

          23       shots, he goes back, or one side or another of his --

          24       I'm talking about his upper body -- you don't have his

          25       shoulders going back, do you?


                                           146
 

 

 


           1   A.  To be fair it was a very, very short period of time.

           2       I don't recall any movement between seeing the muzzle

           3       flashing and shots and him bending like he was injured.

           4   Q.  Thank you.  Secondly -- and it matters not whether it's

           5       in between shots or after the second shot -- what you

           6       say is -- your evidence is you hear the shots and the

           7       position that Mark Duggan is in -- you can see that his

           8       left side, correct?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  It's like he's been winded, so he's gone forward?

          11   A.  He has, sir.  I mean I have described it with both

          12       hands, but clearly I could not see his right, but the

          13       movement was as if winded, yes.

          14   Q.  Just help me with this.  So he's gone forward as if

          15       winded, you can't see -- the left hand is probably

          16       obscuring the right hand, correct?

          17   A.  No, his body was obscuring his right hand.

          18   Q.  In any event, at the time you hear the shots, you don't

          19       see any movement from Mark Duggan apart from the

          20       movement you have just described, that winding movement;

          21       you don't see him using his arms and throwing something,

          22       do you?

          23   A.  I couldn't see his right hand, sir, at all.

          24   Q.  You couldn't see his right hand --

          25   A.  You were gesturing with your right hand, I couldn't see


                                           147
 

 

 


           1       his right hand.

           2   Q.  You couldn't see his right hand, but from the winding

           3       position, you don't see his body move as if he's making

           4       a throwing gesture, do you?

           5   A.  After the winding position?

           6   Q.  Yes.

           7   A.  No, I didn't see anything after the winding position --

           8       I don't recall anything after the winded position.

           9   Q.  The one thing we can agree on is that you were in

          10       a position where you were making your observations, if

          11       he had come upright -- so from that position (indicates)

          12       that you've described after the shots, yes, bent over --

          13       if he had come upright, or had made a movement with his

          14       body, you would have been in a position to see it.

          15   A.  I don't remember what happened after the winded

          16       position.  Obviously, at some point he hit the floor,

          17       I didn't see him hit the floor either.

          18   Q.  Forgive me, my question was not whether you remember, my

          19       question was you would have been in a position to see

          20       it.

          21   A.  Yes, but I don't recall any movement after the winded

          22       position.  He obviously did something after that,

          23       I didn't recall any of it.

          24   Q.  Your memory just suddenly goes blank, is that it?

          25   A.  No, sir, it's very quick and I've been honest in my


                                           148
 

 

 


           1       statement, I do not recall what happened after that.

           2   Q.  Can I make a suggestion to you and see if you agree or

           3       not.  Is the reason why you suddenly go blank at this

           4       point because you realised a terrible mistake had

           5       happened and you're distancing yourself from that of

           6       your colleague, the shooter.

           7   A.  I can't say what V53 saw because I didn't see it from

           8       where I was.  I don't believe a mistake happened.

           9   Q.  You don't know, do you?

          10   A.  I didn't see why but I believe my colleague, yes.

          11   Q.  You believe your colleague?

          12   A.  I do, sir, yes.  I trust him.

          13   Q.  You stand together?

          14   A.  No, not in that respect, sir, no.

          15   Q.  You didn't see a gun immediately in the vicinity of Mark

          16       Duggan, did you?

          17   A.  I didn't, sir, no.

          18   Q.  No, but you all stand together.

          19   A.  No, sir, not in that respect as you are getting at, no.

          20   MR THOMAS:  Bear with me one moment.  (Pause)

          21           I think that's all I ask.  Thank you very much.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Ms Le Fevre?

          23   MS LE FEVRE:  No, thank you, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

          25   MR BUTT:  No.


                                           149
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

           2   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern?

           4                      Questions by MR STERN

           5   MR STERN:  Just a few questions, if I may, in relation to

           6       matters you've been asked about.  Can I just start with

           7       what you have just -- I think the suggestion that you

           8       all stand together, in other words that you have come

           9       along to lie.

          10   A.  Yes, that's not the case at all, sir, no.

          11   Q.  How long have you been a police officer, just tell us,

          12       please?

          13   A.  Now or then, sir.

          14   Q.  Now.

          15   A.  13 years.

          16   Q.  I think you graduated and thereafter you joined the

          17       police force some years later, then went into SC&O19 or

          18       what is now known as SC&O19.

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  For three years you were on the armed response vehicles

          21       and then, as you have told us, you have been involved in

          22       the TST since about 2008.

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  Have you involved yourself in a number of courses since

          25       then?


                                           150
 

 

 


           1   A.  Since the TST course?

           2   Q.  Since 2008, yes.

           3   A.  No, just continuation training, sir.

           4   Q.  Right.  Can I just ask you, please, to have a look at

           5       your original notebook.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you have it there?

           7   MR STERN:  I have it here.  Courtesy of the IPCC.  (Handed)

           8           I've opened it at the relevant page.  Just so

           9       everybody can follow it, it's at CD18.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that your original notebook?

          11   A.  It is, sir, yes.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Good, thank you.

          13   MR STERN:  You were asked about the line which reads:

          14           "A number of shots were fired."

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  Just pausing there for a moment.  If we look at the line

          17       just above that, we can see the words:

          18           "... stop and I deployed."

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  So far as the "I" is concerned, when you write an I, do

          21       you write it with two lines, one above and one below, as

          22       we can see there?

          23   A.  Straight down, then a horizontal top and bottom.

          24   Q.  Is that how it was written in the line below?

          25   A.  As I said, sir, it's my handwriting, my honest belief is


                                           151
 

 

 


           1       it was an "I" and I changed it to an "A".

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are looking at the original now.

           3   A.  I am, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's what you feel happened?

           5   A.  Obviously, I cannot recall.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will pass that round to the jury

           7       in a moment.

           8   MR STERN:  I was going to say that may help.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do it now.  Have a look at the

          10       original note then.  (Handed)

          11            (The document was passed around the jury)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I wouldn't mind seeing it.

          13   MR STERN:  I do not think the witness needs it back, so it

          14       can go straight back to the IPCC in the folder there.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  (Pause)

          16           Thank you.  Yes.

          17   MR STERN:  The jury has heard that there's a fairly strict

          18       process that's undertaken when you return the weapons.

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  Just explain what happens.

          21   A.  The weapons stay in your possession until, I think,

          22       it's -- the investigating authority come.  You take your

          23       weapons out one by one into a room and there's a count

          24       back of the -- of your rounds and ammunition to make

          25       sure you have or have not fired and then you return them


                                           152
 

 

 


           1       to the armoury.

           2   Q.  So there would be absolutely clear position in relation

           3       to the number of shots that have been fired?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When did that happen for you?

           6   A.  That was in Leman Street, I believe it might have been

           7       on the 4th floor, we are based on the 3rd --

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, when?

           9   A.  I believe it may be in their log, sir, but I'm not sure

          10       if it was before or after this note, but I'm not sure.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's what I was going to ask, is

          12       it before -- you can't help?

          13   A.  Somebody would have noted it but --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would you have done your notes with

          15       your weapons?

          16   A.  The weapons were certainly in the office with us until

          17       we did that clear back -- until we done that count back.

          18       They were with us in slips, in large bags.  I cannot

          19       recall whether it was before or after the notes.

          20   MR STERN:  We'll look for that and find you the piece of

          21       paper, if we may.  We'll make a note of that.

          22           CD691, please.  These are the documents that we

          23       understand -- part of the flip charts, as I think

          24       they're called, by V59 and he has told us about these to

          25       some extent, so perhaps we can take this fairly shortly;


                                           153
 

 

 


           1       do you recognise this?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  We can see halfway down is the word "Intel" and we've

           4       got:

           5           "R/S/P-suspect in poss of a firearm.  Amber.

           6       Further update: male rear seat passenger in taxi,

           7       confirmed possession of firearm.  Vehicle confirmed."

           8           Then it's got the number plate.

           9   A.  "Gold coloured people carrier".

          10   Q.  "Gold coloured people carrier", is it?

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  If we follow over the page at 692, I think we've got TFC

          13       and SFC and the briefing times --

          14   A.  Sir.

          15   Q.  -- and the Dibri authority on the 2 August by Z50 at

          16       1525, and over the page at 693 dealing with various

          17       postings and intelligence, and warnings given by V59 at

          18       17.45, left Quicksilver at 1755.

          19   A.  Sir.  That's what we conferred on.

          20   Q.  694, we can see the various postings, who was where.

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  Then I think, finally, at 695 we've got Ferry Lane and

          23       the address, N17, south footway, westbound, minicab,

          24       gold people carrier and the vehicle registration mark

          25       again.  It says arrow: "Towards the farm".


                                           154
 

 

 


           1   A.  It's what I believe Broadwater Farm, towards, yes.

           2   Q.  I beg your pardon?

           3   A.  Towards Broadwater Farm, sorry.  I believe that's what

           4       it indicates, yes, direction of travel --

           5   Q.  Were those the matters written out by V59?

           6   A.  They were, yes.

           7   Q.  Were they the matters that you looked at and the matters

           8       you conferred about?

           9   A.  Those were all the matters we conferred about, yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was that written out whilst you were

          11       conferring, all sitting round writing on the flip chart

          12       or was it already written up for you?

          13   A.  I believe when we say -- we came in the office where we

          14       wrote our statement and I believe these were written

          15       down at the start, I cannot be sure because I haven't --

          16       these were written down prior to us getting to where the

          17       stop was, in our notes.  And this is what the agreement

          18       was on the belief facts at the time: routes; indices;

          19       things like that; things that were generally regarded as

          20       facts.  That's probably why everyone has "gold people

          21       carrier" and it's silver.

          22           I have not seen it since the stop.  If someone says

          23       it was gold, then I'll put gold.  We go off the index

          24       anyway so ...

          25   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.


                                           155
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could I just clarify something about

           2       your actual position when you're seeing Mr Duggan being

           3       shot and going down.

           4   A.  Sir.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In your statement that we've been

           6       looking at -- we have had it up on the screen at

           7       CS0160 -- we've had that virtually all read out.

           8           Then if we just go over the page to the top of 0161.

           9       Let's look at those top few lines.  You say:

          10           "I believed it to be gun fire.  I saw the subject

          11       bend over as if winded and continue to fall to the

          12       ground."

          13           Do you agree with that?

          14   A.  Sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's your statement.  Is that

          16       your recollection?  Sorry, top --

          17   A.  Yes, sir, sorry.  I have written that.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You say:

          19           "At this point I was almost on the pavement."

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's just freeze frame that there.

          22       You're really almost within touching distance of

          23       Mr Duggan, aren't you?

          24   A.  I believe I was pretty close, sir, yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  How close?


                                           156
 

 

 


           1   A.  I wouldn't say "touching distance".  I wasn't thinking,

           2       "I'm going to be in a position to deal with him", and

           3       I'm still moving while the whole thing is happening.  So

           4       as he's come across my vision, for that one or two

           5       seconds, if that, I'm still moving.  In the time the

           6       shots are fired and the movement; I'm still closing that

           7       gap down.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Anyone in front of you, any police

           9       officer in front of you?

          10   A.  I don't recall anyone else.  As soon as I saw that

          11       person break my vision, I'm straight on him and I don't

          12       recall seeing anything else other than the muzzle flash.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Which obviously came to your left.

          14   A.  That was peripheral, I was solely concentrating on --

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There is no police officer in front

          16       of you blocking your vision of this?

          17   A.  I don't recall seeing anyone in front of me.  I recall

          18       Mr Duggan and that movement and that action and I don't

          19       recall anyone in my right peripheral, I just don't

          20       recall it, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The gap you put as your block A is

          22       not a very large gap, is it?

          23   A.  I'm sure it's been measured, sir, I cannot recall.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sure it has been measured.  It's

          25       a scale plan; we've all got it.  But you cannot remember


                                           157
 

 

 


           1       anyone blocking your view anyway?

           2   A.  I don't know where anyone else was, sir, other than my

           3       peripheral vision of the two officers on the left.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So when Mr Duggan goes into that

           5       really crouching position, as he continues to fall to

           6       the ground, to use your expression, you're really

           7       a metre or two metres away, maximum?

           8   A.  I hadn't made the pavement and I am not sure -- I didn't

           9       help with the first aid on Mr Duggan.  I don't know

          10       where he was on the pavement, how close to the railings

          11       or how close to the kerb he was.  I was certainly on the

          12       road.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You said: "At this point I was

          14       almost on the pavement."

          15   A.  Yes, I was certainly moving -- yes, in that time I was

          16       making --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you see one of your colleagues

          18       catch him as he fell?

          19   A.  I don't remember that, sir, at all.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Almost immediately you swing round

          21       because as, as you say in your statement: Q63 calls over

          22       to you stating that W42 had been hit.

          23   A.  Well sir, I was covering him -- when I heard the shots

          24       go off, I was continually watching him, but I just don't

          25       recall -- I didn't remember at the time and I don't


                                           158
 

 

 


           1       remember now what happened after that.

           2           I have never witnessed anyone shot before, I don't

           3       know whether that's anything to do with it.  But my

           4       recollection is he got winded and then he was on the

           5       floor.  I don't recall anyone ...

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  One of those two bangs that you

           7       heard obviously was the bullet which ended up hitting

           8       W42.

           9   A.  I believe so now, but I didn't know that at the time.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It would have taken a bit of time,

          11       wouldn't it, for that to have happened; Q63 to realise

          12       it and then to contact you?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.  There was a possibility I was still covering

          14       Mr Duggan, trying to interpret what's happened.  But

          15       I don't recall how he hit the floor, who --

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You haven't got that recollection in

          17       your mind at all.

          18   A.  I did not recall at the time, sir, and I don't recall

          19       now, I'm afraid.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Back to Mr Underwood.

          21                Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Just to follow up on that.

          23           Mr Duggan would not have been any further away from

          24       you than the front row of the jury then, when he was

          25       shot?


                                           159
 

 

 


           1   A.  I don't know how wide the pavement was, I haven't been

           2       back there.  The maximum he could have been would have

           3       been railings to the kerb, however wide that is.

           4   Q.  How does that impress you, that sort of gap between you

           5       and the front row of the jury?  Is that the sort of

           6       thing you can visualise as the gap between you and

           7       Mr Duggan?

           8   A.  I would say about there, yes.  I certainly wasn't close

           9       enough to feel I was going to act -- to dominate him

          10       close enough to get -- when it went off.  So I would say

          11       possibly ... possibly there, yes.

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  That's all I have to

          13       say.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much indeed.  That

          15       concludes your evidence.  You're free to go and, as

          16       I say to all the witnesses, please don't discuss it with

          17       anyone.  So thank you very much, W39.

          18   A.  Thank you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Cameras off, please.

          20                      (The witness withdrew)

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, those are the witnesses for today.  I've

          22       got some statements that I need to read to the jury

          23       which can conveniently be done now.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That would be quite a good time.  If

          25       we do that now and at the conclusion of you having done


                                           160
 

 

 


           1       that we won't have our afternoon break in that event

           2       because those in front of me, I do not believe, write

           3       down everything that is read out from the statement but,

           4       in any event, that's what we'll do and then when you

           5       have concluded reading that will be it for today.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you.  Just to explain here, as is

           7       obvious now, almost every witness who's come here has

           8       given at least one statement before.  We've had a whole

           9       load of statements from people, some of whom, everybody

          10       agrees, it's unnecessary to call, it's unnecessary to

          11       read their statements, they are just not relevant.  Some

          12       people, it's necessary to call them and, in some cases,

          13       people agree that I need to read the statement out and

          14       we don't call the witness.

          15           So we've got, probably all together, about 20 or so

          16       witnesses whose statements I am going to need to read at

          17       some point.  These five are more or less convenient to

          18       read at this stage because they pretty much fit in with

          19       where we are in the evidence.

          20        POLICE CONSTABLE GARY RENNLES (statement read by

          21                          MR UNDERWOOD)

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  So can I start with Gary Rennles, who gives

          23       a statement of 30 July of this year.  It's our page

          24       CD29124.  What he says is:

          25           "I am PC Gary Rennles ... currently attached to the


                                           161
 

 

 


           1       Specialist Firearms support team within SCO19 Specialist

           2       Firearms command.  I've been asked to make a statement

           3       regarding the events of Thursday 4 August 2011 and my

           4       involvement in the incident.  On the day I was on duty

           5       in plain clothes in the office at Leman Street when as

           6       a result of information from Inspector Elliott I made my

           7       way to Ferry Lane, Tottenham in company with PC David

           8       Culley in separate vehicles.  There we meet officers who

           9       had been involved in an incident requiring a PIP

          10       procedure.  I was asked to convey officers back to Leman

          11       Street.  I remember two officers who were present in the

          12       car I drove back.  They were W39 and V48.  I believe

          13       other officers were also in the car but cannot remember

          14       who they were.  Whilst present with the officers I did

          15       not discuss the incident.  When we left the scene

          16       I departed using police warning equipment to progress

          17       through cordons and to avoid officers being photographed

          18       by the press present.  I returned to Leman Street and

          19       was later required to return to the scene to collect

          20       Inspector Elliott."

          21           That's all we need to read from that.

          22      POLICE SERGEANT STEPHEN BOSWELL (statement read by MR

          23                            UNDERWOOD)

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Then the next statement is by Stephen Boswell

          25       dated 11 November 2011 and it's our CS731.  He says:


                                           162
 

 

 


           1           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty in full

           2       uniform in a marked police van performing the role of

           3       patrol supervisor.  At approximately 1815 PC Molloy

           4       transmitted over the radios that there had been

           5       a shooting on Ferry Lane, N17 which she had just heard

           6       on the main radio set.  I made my way to the location on

           7       an immediate response and arrived a few minutes later at

           8       the same time as PC Partidge, we were the first

           9       marked/uniformed officers at the scene.  As we arrived I

          10       was met by several plain clothes police officers who

          11       were in Ferry Lane just on the junction with Broad

          12       Lanes.  They appeared to be trying to implement some

          13       sort of traffic diversion and on my arrival they

          14       directed me through and up to the rise which runs over

          15       the railway tracks below.  Once there I was met by

          16       further plain clothes officers who indicated to me that

          17       someone had been injured and that the area needed to be

          18       secured and the roads closed.  On the south kerb I could

          19       clearly see a male lying on the floor with other people

          20       around him performing CPR.  I immediately instructed

          21       PC Partidge to take his vehicle to the east end of the

          22       flyover and close the road to all traffic at the

          23       junction with Reedham Close and prevent anyone from

          24       leaving the estate.  I also requested all units to leave

          25       whatever they were doing and make their way to my


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           1       location urgently I also requested the attendance of

           2       Inspector Saunders.  As units arrived I directed them to

           3       various locations to contain and preserve the scene.

           4       This included putting one officer next to a handgun

           5       which was lying on the grass verge a short distance from

           6       where the injured part was being worked on and when

           7       Inspector Saunders arrived at the location she took

           8       overall control liaised with the plain clothes offices.

           9       The air ambulance arrived and I ensured the landing area

          10       was cleared so that the medical staff could deploy and

          11       assist with the person.  I was informed that at 1841

          12       life had been pronounced by Dr Glazebrook and this

          13       information was relayed back to the control room by me.

          14       At 1845, once the body had been covered, I designated PC

          15       Griffiths to commence a crime scene log and PC Layton to

          16       ensure the continuity of the deceased body.  I was

          17       informed that at 1852 there was an injured police

          18       officer being taken by ambulance to hospital, I relayed

          19       this information by asking the control room to private

          20       call me so as not to transmit it over the airways.

          21       I then spent the rest of the evening controlling the

          22       cordons and ensuring the integrity of the scene,

          23       including asking for two tents to be brought out in

          24       order that the body and discarded firearm could be

          25       preserved.  I also helped organise and collate details


                                           164
 

 

 


           1       of potential witnesses.  This included a list of all the

           2       vehicles and drivers waiting to leave the Ferry Lane

           3       estate but were prevented from doing so immediately

           4       after the shooting.  A copy of these details was left by

           5       me in the IBO at the completion of my duty and a copy

           6       was also, at a later date, emailed to the IPCC.  I also

           7       assigned officers to take details of all those who were

           8       leaving and entering the students' residence that looked

           9       down onto Ferry Lane and make enquiries with them to

          10       ascertain whether they had seen anything.  When Acting

          11       Police Sergeant Lloyd left the scene she handed me the

          12       incident management log which I retained, without

          13       actually making any entries.  I left the scene when

          14       I and my officers were relieved at [approximately] 0500

          15       and at my arrival back at [the] patrol base I handed all

          16       the relevant information into the IBO."

          17         POLICE SERGEANT DANNY WARNER (statement read by

          18                          MR UNDERWOOD)

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  The next station is police Sergeant Danny

          20       Warner dated 21 December 2011 our CS619 he says that:

          21           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty between the

          22       hours of 2.00 pm to 11.00 pm.  Shortly before the Ferry

          23       Lane shooting incident involving Mark Duggan I was in

          24       full uniform and on single patrol driving a marked

          25       police response vehicle in the Seven Sisters Road area


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           1       as on call supervisor to the Haringey Borough STT

           2       officers working the borough.

           3           "At approximately 18.14 hours a call came out over

           4       the personal radio on the YR link that a police officer

           5       and a civilian had been shot Ferry Lane junction Jarrow

           6       Road, there were armed officers on scene and assistance

           7       was required.

           8           "As I was in close proximity to this incident

           9       (approximately 1 mile away) I made my way to the scene

          10       and was one of the first officers to arrive I would

          11       estimate my time of arrival would have been

          12       approximately between 18.14 hours and 18.20 hours.

          13           "I remember a white male who identified himself as

          14       a plain clothes police officer informed me there had

          15       just been a shooting involving a civilian and a police

          16       officer and requested that cordons were put in.  There

          17       were more police units turning up and I remember there

          18       being a large articulated lorry blocking the slip road

          19       from Hale Road to Ferry Lane and that was causing

          20       congestion at this junction.

          21           "I used the PCs at the scene to put a cordon in and

          22       block off Ferry Lane.  I moved my response vehicle to

          23       put a roadblock in to divert east bound traffic from

          24       Monument Way up Watermead Way to divert them away from

          25       Ferry Lane and called up on my personal radio for my


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           1       Safer Transport Officers and PCSOs to attend and deal

           2       with cordons.  I then returned to the lorry that was

           3       causing an obstruction and with the assistance of other

           4       officers help the lorry to reverse out of the slip road

           5       to Ferry Lane and go on its way in the direction of

           6       Broad Lane.  I then ensured that cordon tape was

           7       properly erected from Tottenham Hale station across

           8       Ferry Lane to the beginning of the retail park side and

           9       had my STT PCSOs and PCs staff this cordon when they

          10       attended.  They were instructed to inform members of the

          11       public that they could not get access to Ferry Lane due

          12       to a critical incident that police were dealing with.

          13       People who needed access to the estate could get access

          14       on foot via the canal tow path.  I recall PC Wray and PC

          15       Collins and PCSO Meir were three officers who attended

          16       to staff said cordon.

          17           "I remember a request coming out over the PR that

          18       a second exhibit tent was required to be brought to the

          19       scene, I cannot remember who made this request, it was

          20       more than likely on the instruction of Duty Officer

          21       Inspector Caroline Saunders who was running the critical

          22       incident.

          23           "Once cordons were in place, and the obstructing

          24       lorry had been moved my response vehicle was no longer

          25       needed to be blocking the road at the aforementioned


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           1       location so I volunteered to collect this second exhibit

           2       tent from Stoke Newington Police Station and bring it to

           3       the scene.  I did this on my own and I cannot remember

           4       the exact time but it would have been approximately

           5       collected and deliver within an hour or so of my being

           6       at the scene.  The exact time should be detailed on the

           7       working CAD but I do not have this to hand and it is

           8       currently restricted.

           9           "I did not deal with any witnesses, but did assist

          10       in erecting the two exhibits tents with PS Boswell and

          11       other PCs whose names I do not know who were at the

          12       scene.  One tent was placed over Mark Duggan (south

          13       footway) and the other tent was placed over a handgun on

          14       the ground in a grassy area a few feet south from where

          15       Mark Duggan's body was laying.

          16           "I cannot recall the exact time I left the scene but

          17       I believe it would have been approximately 20.00 hours

          18       to 21.00 hours when another team of officers took over

          19       the Ferry Lane cordon where my STT officers were

          20       initially stationed."

          21      MR CHRISTOPHER ALLEN (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Next we have a statement from

          23       Christopher Allen, 25 January 2012 and it's our CS640:

          24           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty in full

          25       issue police uniform tasked with working a Commissioners


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           1       Reserve 1800-0200 hours shift as a member of the

           2       Territorial Support Group 3 unit.

           3           "Due to the length of time since the incident and

           4       being required to provide a statement, I am unable to

           5       recall the exact times of my involvement.

           6           "Early into our shift we received a callout and were

           7       required to attend Tottenham where I was informed

           8       a shooting had recently taken place.  On our arrival

           9       I was tasked with looking after a witness to the

          10       shooting.  I was introduced to a male who identified

          11       myself to me as [the taxi driver].  I was informed that

          12       officers were on their way to the scene to speak with

          13       [the taxi driver] regarding the incident and as a result

          14       I was required to wait with him until they arrived.

          15       I accompanied [the taxi driver] to a marked police

          16       vehicle where I suggested he take a seat as there was

          17       nowhere else he could sit and wait.

          18           "During the period of time I spent with [the taxi

          19       driver] we did not discuss the incident at all and as

          20       a result he did not provide me with any significant

          21       evidential information regarding what had taken place.

          22       Throughout I tried to help him relax and I monitored his

          23       welfare and health as he appeared to be suffering from

          24       shock but did not require any medical treatment.  He

          25       informed me that he was fasting and also that he was


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           1       diabetic and would need to eat as soon as possible.  As

           2       a result I arranged for food and water to be brought to

           3       him as we had been waiting a considerable length of time

           4       and we were unsure how much longer we would be required

           5       to wait.

           6           "After a few hours PC Welling came and took over

           7       looking after [the taxi driver].  From this point on

           8       I had no further dealings with [him]."

           9          MR JIM FOWLER (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Then two more, the next is Jim Fowler,

          11       a statement made on 9 November 2011.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, who was that?

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Jim Fowler, our CS549.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  He says:

          16           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty in full

          17       uniform in company of PC Gibson and PC Christiansen in

          18       a marked police Armed Response Vehicle.  Shortly before

          19       1813 hours we were stationary on Whipps Cross Road,

          20       Leyton, E11 when I heard a call for assistance over our

          21       vehicle OSU radio from Tactical Support Team officers.

          22       They were requesting assistance with a shooting incident

          23       where a suspect and an officer were shot under Operation

          24       Dibri.  We made our way to the location on Ferry Lane,

          25       Tottenham near the junction with Mill Mead Road and


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           1       Jarrow Road, arriving approximately five minutes after,

           2       where we were met by TST officer V59.  He stated that

           3       there had been a shooting at an armed vehicle stop and

           4       that a firearm and scene needed to be secured.  I could

           5       see an IC3 male on his back on the pavement being given

           6       first aid by other TST officers just west of the

           7       junction; I now know this male to be Mark Duggan.

           8       I asked V59 what he needed from us and he stated he

           9       wanted the green area between Ferry Lane and Jarrow Road

          10       sealed off as a crime seen as the firearm was there.

          11       There was an iron metal railing in between the green and

          12       the pavement and it was on the other side of it.  The

          13       green area was on a gradient sloping down south towards

          14       Jarrow Road from Ferry Lane.  I turned our vehicle round

          15       and parked in Jarrow Road, where a small crowd had

          16       already begun to gather.  PCs Gibson and Christiansen

          17       made their way up to the pavement near the scene itself

          18       to secure the firearm and I remained down on Jarrow Road

          19       asking the people to move back.  I was joined a short

          20       while after by local officers whom I asked to bring

          21       cordon tape and assisted them in sealing off the whole

          22       of Jarrow Road, up to Ferry Lane.  Once there was

          23       sufficient other officers there I went up to join PCs

          24       Christiansen and Gibson who were stood on the green near

          25       the scene of the stop next to the metal railing.  They


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           1       were stood next to a cardboard box and they informed me

           2       that a firearm had been found on the floor there on the

           3       grass and was underneath it.  There was also a black

           4       plastic plant pot which appeared to contain a cannabis

           5       plant next to it.  We remained on scene for some time

           6       ensuring the firearm was guarded while TST officers

           7       continued to give first aid and the doctors from HEMS

           8       came to treat Duggan after the helicopter landed on the

           9       crossroads.  Once the scene was secure and there was

          10       sufficient resources on scene, we received further

          11       instructions from our supervisors to stand down and that

          12       we could leave the scene but remain in the area in case

          13       of any further incidents."

          14      MR JIM FOWLER (further statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Then there's a further statement from

          16       Mr Fowler, dated 22 February 2012, our CS551.  He said:

          17           "... I have been asked to clarify some points.

          18           "I said in my original statement;

          19           "'Shortly before 1813 hours we were stationary on

          20       Whips Cross Road, Leyton E11 when I heard a call for

          21       assistance ...'

          22           "This should have read 'At 1813 hours we were

          23       stationary on Whipps Cross Road, Leyton E11 when I heard

          24       a call for assistance over our vehicle OSU radio from

          25       Tactical Support Team officers.  They were requesting


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           1       assistance with a shooting incident where a suspect and

           2       an officer were shot under Operation Dibri.'

           3           "In my statement I also wrote that the call for

           4       assistance was at 1813.  This was an error on my part.

           5       The time was actually 1814 as recorded in my pocket book

           6       page 47 which is also recorded as such on CAD 8215 so

           7       should be accurate.

           8           "On 4 August 2011, I was the driver of vehicle call

           9       sign TJ 523 and we were parked at the 'Tea Hut' opposite

          10       Whipps Cross Hospital, Whipps Cross Road, Leyton E11.

          11       According to Internet mapping Ferry Lane, Tottenham near

          12       the junction with Mill Mead Road and Jarrow Road, where

          13       the incident occurred, is about 4.5 miles from that

          14       location so we were on scene in time it took me to drive

          15       that distance on blue lights and two tones.

          16           "Once on the scene, I helped cordon off the area

          17       with tape and keep local people back but did not obtain

          18       any details of any witnesses as this was done by local

          19       officers who arrived on scene soon after us."

          20           You will recall that armed response vehicle is the

          21       one we see turn up in the BBC footage.

          22           There is only one other matter.  I know one of the

          23       questions that, members of the jury, you handed up to

          24       the Coroner involved the definition of the word "jam" or

          25       "jamming" and hopefully somebody has provided us with


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           1       an Urban Dictionary definition of that.  It goes on for

           2       a few pages.  What we'll do is have it printed up and

           3       given to you.  But it might be helpful to give you the

           4       one at this stage which we think probably makes sense:

           5           "Jammed: having an activity or pursuit intentionally

           6       unjustly hindered or prevented by someone else."

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you say that again?

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  "Jammed: having an activity or pursuit

           9       intentionally unjustly hindered or prevented by someone

          10       else."

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we go.  Let's see if I can

          12       work that into the summing-up.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  There are many alternative definitions, all

          14       of which will be printed and I am not going to read

          15       them.

          16           So that's the evidence for today.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          18           Members of the jury, obviously we have worked quite

          19       hard today and been able to finish therefore a little

          20       earlier.

          21           As you know, I think you've been warned we may be

          22       sitting on Friday morning.  We'll see how things go with

          23       the witnesses but it's likely that we will be asking

          24       you, please, to be here on Friday morning to assist to

          25       keep up to the timetable that we're setting ourselves.


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           1       I'll let you know perhaps a little bit more tomorrow as

           2       to the firming up of the times for that.

           3           Thank you for your concentration today.  That

           4       completes your duties for today so please feel free now

           5       to leave us.

           6           I ask the cameras be turned off and be ready for

           7       a 10.30 start tomorrow.


          22   (3.43 pm)

          23       (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Wednesday,

          24                         23 October 2013)

          25
               V48 (sworn) ..........................................1


                                           175
 


           1
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................1
           2
                   Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................16
           3
                   Questions by MR STERN ...........................38
           4
                   Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ............39
           5
               R68 (sworn) .........................................42
           6
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................42
           7
                   Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................63
           8
                   Questions by MR STERN ..........................101
           9
                   Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........108
          10
                   Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............109
          11
               W39 (sworn) ........................................113
          12
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................113
          13
                   Questions by MR THOMAS .........................128
          14
                   Questions by MR STERN ..........................150
          15
                   Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ..............159
          16
               POLICE CONSTABLE GARY RENNLES ......................161
          17             (statement read by
                         MR UNDERWOOD)
          18
               POLICE SERGEANT STEPHEN BOSWELL ....................162
          19             (statement read by MR
                         UNDERWOOD)
          20
               POLICE SERGEANT DANNY WARNER .......................165
          21             (statement read by
                         MR UNDERWOOD)
          22
               MR CHRISTOPHER ALLEN (statement read ...............168
          23             by MR UNDERWOOD)

          24   MR JIM FOWLER (statement read by MR ................170
                         UNDERWOOD)
          25


                                           176
 

 

 


           1   MR JIM FOWLER (further statement ...................172
                         read by MR UNDERWOOD)
           2

           3

           4

           5

           6

           7

           8

           9

          10

          11

          12

          13

          14

          15

          16

          17

          18

          19

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                           177