Transcript of the Hearing 11 November 2013

 

           1                                       Monday, 11 November 2013

           2   (2.00 pm)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (2.12 pm)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Are we ready the best we can

           6       be?

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think we're ready for the jury, as best we

           8       can be, yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then we'll ask for the jury to come

          10       in then, please.  Cameras off.

          11                  (In the presence of the jury)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          13       jury, sorry about the slight technical delay but I am

          14       not quite sure what you have up there on your screen but

          15       we'll see how we go.

          16           Right then, Mr Underwood, what happens now?

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  I'm going to recall A10, please.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I would normally say turn the

          19       cameras off but they are -- I had better say that all

          20       the same.  If we could have A10 back in then, please.

          21       Thank you very much.

          22                          A10 (re-sworn)

          23                   (The witness was anonymised)

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Would you come

          25       back in and have a seat there.


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           1   A.  Thank you, sir.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I recognise you from last time but

           3       at the same time just, I think, for form's sake, I have

           4       the sticky label which you wrote your name down on the

           5       last occasion, so let me put it onto another piece of

           6       paper and let me make sure that that's put before you,

           7       please, just so that we can ensure that we have

           8       identification of the witness as A10.  (Handed)

           9           There we go, if you have a look at that.  See in

          10       there if that's your name.

          11   A.  Yes, that's my name.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  You can return

          13       that back to me and I'll put it where I've been keeping

          14       those things.  Thank you.

          15           Yes, Mr Underwood?

          16                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, A10.

          18   A.  Good afternoon.

          19   Q.  Since you gave evidence on the last occasion, I think

          20       you've had a look at some of the answers you gave to me

          21       and made a further statement; is that right?

          22   A.  That is correct, yes.

          23   Q.  You've exhibited to that a gist of a note you made; is

          24       that true?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


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           1   Q.  Can I just -- we'll have that note shown to you, if

           2       I may.

           3   A.  If it can assist, I have a copy.

           4   Q.  Thank you.  There are copies for the jury.  Can we just

           5       show you one that's going to go up to the jury.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Before it goes to the jury, can we

           7       make sure we have the right one, please.  (Handed)

           8           Thank you very much.  Yes, that's the right one,

           9       thank you.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That can go to the jury.  Shall we

          12       put that where we had our other intelligence --

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.  Mr Mansfield kindly came up with a kind

          14       of -- C9.  If this went behind that.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If we put it in our dividers, the

          16       second page behind C9, then, members of the jury, that

          17       would then make some sense.

          18           A10, you have that now, have you?  Does he have

          19       a copy?

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  You have a copy yourself?

          21   A.  I've got a copy.

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can I just identify what questions and

          23       answers you and I had which you have revisited.  I asked

          24       you:

          25           "Did you at any stage make a record to the effect


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           1       that on 3 August you had an address where the gun was,

           2       or guns were?"

           3           You answered:

           4           "An address where -- I never knew the guns were."

           5           I then went on:

           6           "Did you at any stage make a record which suggested

           7       that on 3 August you had an address for this female

           8       associate?"

           9           You said:

          10           "I have never had an address for the female

          11       associate."

          12           I said:

          13           "It's not what I asked: did you at any time make

          14       a record which suggested on 3 August you did have

          15       an address?"

          16           You said:

          17           "No, I've never made that."

          18           That is the question and answer that you revisit, is

          19       it?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  What you're showing us now is this document which is

          22       dated Thursday 4 August 2011 notes made at 18.40; is

          23       that right?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  "MD is at a girlfriend's address.  MD will be catching


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           1       a cab over to KHF to collect the firearm.

           2           "KHF is ... at the same address he was at yesterday

           3       lunchtime when he was with the female holding at least

           4       2 firearms for KHF."

           5           If I can just go down to the final entry:

           6           "I had absolutely no doubt that Mark Duggan's

           7       intention today was to collect a firearm from Kevin

           8       Hutchinson-Foster and take that firearm to the

           9       Broadwater Farm Estate in Tottenham to be placed at

          10       a safe address on the estate."

          11           We see that you use the word "address" three times

          12       there and the second time that you use it you are

          13       saying:

          14           "KFH is ... at the same he was he was at yesterday

          15       lunchtime when he was with the female holding at least

          16       2 firearms for KHF"

          17           You are referring there back to the first entry "MD

          18       is at a girlfriend's address"; is that right?

          19   A.  That is correct, yes.

          20   Q.  What did you mean by "address" when you used it in that

          21       document?

          22   A.  I didn't have the exact address, I didn't have the

          23       number of the house or the flat or the actual street

          24       name.  When I refer to address, I'm referring to the

          25       fact that it's an unknown address rather than an address


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           1       for which I had the full details.

           2   Q.  So the first use, you say:

           3           "MD is at a girlfriend's address."

           4           You meant there, did you, he was with his girlfriend

           5       but you didn't know where?

           6   A.  I'm aware of the address that the girlfriend lived at,

           7       yes.

           8   Q.  When you used the word "address" in relation to Mark

           9       Duggan, you did know?

          10   A.  Yes.  What you have to remember, sir, is this is a note

          11       that I made 20 minutes after I received the telephone

          12       call from ZZ17 and in that, that was just to refresh my

          13       memory at a later stage, if required.

          14   Q.  All right.  So is what you're telling the jury you used

          15       the word "address" loosely because you were hurriedly

          16       jotting down something after the event?

          17   A.  No, I knew the address of the girlfriend, I didn't know

          18       the address of the female, the female that was in the

          19       Leyton area.

          20   Q.  All right.  The third use of the word "address" in the

          21       final paragraph, that Mr Duggan is going to take the

          22       firearm to the Broadwater Farm Estate in Tottenham to be

          23       placed at a safe address on the estate --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  -- were you using the word address there to mean a wide


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           1       location or are were you using it to mean a particular

           2       place?

           3   A.  I didn't know the address on the Broadwater Farm as

           4       well, sir.

           5   Q.  On that point, when you said in that final paragraph:

           6           "I had absolutely no doubt that Mark Duggan's

           7       intention today was to collect a firearm from Kevin

           8       Hutchinson-Foster and take that firearm to the

           9       Broadwater Farm Estate in Tottenham to be placed at

          10       a safe address on the estate."

          11           Was that intelligence or belief passed on to the

          12       police?

          13   A.  That was -- at that time, at 18.40, over all the

          14       intelligence that I had received over the last few days,

          15       that was the conclusion that I had come to.

          16   Q.  What, so after the shooting, you reviewed the

          17       intelligence, did you?

          18   A.  But that was a comment that I made in relation to all of

          19       the intelligence that I had received over the last few

          20       days.

          21   Q.  Yes.  What I'm asking you is whether you told the

          22       Metropolitan Police at any stage that your belief was

          23       that the purpose of picking this gun up was to take it

          24       to a safe address on Broadwater Farm?

          25   A.  Yes, I referred in my statement that -- my previous


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           1       statements that the firearm was going to be taken to the

           2       Broadwater Farm Estate.

           3   Q.  To a safe address?

           4   A.  That's my terminology in relation to an unknown address

           5       on the Broadwater Farm Estate.

           6   Q.  Sure.  Here what I'm getting at is this: you would

           7       understand the difference, wouldn't you, if you were

           8       an armed police team about to intercept somebody

           9       carrying a firearm, it would be important for you to

          10       know as much as possible about what the person carrying

          11       the firearm was intending to do with it --

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  -- so if, as the press reports had it, Mr Duggan was on

          14       his way to shoot someone with a firearm, that's very

          15       different to him, as it were, couriering it to a safe

          16       address, isn't it?

          17   A.  Yes.  That's my terminology in relation to where the

          18       firearm was going, it was going to the Broadwater Farm.

          19       My understanding was it was going to the Broadwater Farm

          20       to an address where it was going to be placed.

          21   Q.  That's essentially what you passed on to the police, was

          22       it?

          23   A.  That is what I gave to ZZ17, yes.

          24   Q.  What was the purpose of you making this note?

          25   A.  I made that note about 20 minutes after ZZ17 contacted


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           1       me and informed me that Mark Duggan had been shot and

           2       that he had died as a result of his injuries.  I wrote

           3       this note in order that -- I knew there would be

           4       an inquiry, I knew that there would be an inquest at

           5       a later date.  I wasn't sure if I was going to be

           6       working at SOCA at a later date and if I didn't have

           7       access to the intelligence from SOCA I could ask to look

           8       at this note and refresh my memory at the time.

           9   Q.  So you wanted it to be accurate; would that be fair?

          10   A.  As I said, I jotted that down at the time and that was

          11       in note form.

          12   Q.  I want to ask you some questions about difficulties you

          13       are labouring under in giving evidence and if you can't

          14       answer then just say so.

          15           Are you operating under legal constraints about what

          16       you can tell the jury?

          17   A.  A lot of the time, yes.

          18   Q.  So if, for example, the jury wanted to know precisely

          19       what intelligence you held in relation to

          20       Mr Hutchinson-Foster, would you be unable to tell them

          21       because of legal constraints?

          22   A.  Some of that intelligence, yes.

          23   Q.  If the jury wanted to know what capacity you had to get

          24       more intelligence about Mr Hutchinson-Foster, would

          25       those same legal constraints prevent you giving full


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           1       answers to that?

           2   A.  It may do, yes, sir.

           3   Q.  One final matter.  Looking back at this note of yours,

           4       the second entry:

           5           "KHF is at the same address he was at yesterday

           6       lunchtime when he was with the female holding at least

           7       2 firearms for [Kevin Hutchinson-Foster]."

           8           Would you accept that intelligence that somebody is

           9       holding two firearms is extremely important?

          10   A.  Yes.  I mean, the intelligence in relation to that note,

          11       Kevin Hutchinson-Foster was holding the two firearms and

          12       the female was holding at least one of them as far as

          13       intelligence was concerned.

          14   Q.  What it says is:

          15           "... at the same address he was at yesterday

          16       lunchtime when he was with the female holding at least

          17       2 firearms for KHF."

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  That suggests she was holding at least two guns for him,

          20       doesn't it?

          21   A.  What I meant to say there was Kevin Hutchinson-Foster

          22       had possession of the two firearms and the female had

          23       possession of at least possession one of them and what

          24       I have put in that note is that she has two of them, she

          25       may or may not have had two of them but information was


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           1       that she had at least one of the firearms.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well, thank you very much.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?

           4                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           5   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes, good afternoon, officer.

           6   A.  Good afternoon, sir.

           7   Q.  May I make it clear I do not want to compromise anybody

           8       or the information or whatever, so I'm going to try to

           9       draft questions to you or hone them in a way that

          10       enables you to answer them.  So, do you follow, I don't

          11       want to make life difficult for you.

          12           Can I just take it in stages, first of all.  The

          13       jury, obviously, have the original compilation that we

          14       made at C9, and I want to have your recent note

          15       alongside and just go through --

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do we have C9?  Have a look in that

          17       red file there.

          18   MR MANSFIELD:  I'm so sorry.  C9 is a compilation put

          19       together from statements you have made in September and

          20       there's a small reference to what you have said

          21       recently, but most of it comes from two earlier

          22       statements and some of it from evidence that you gave.

          23       For these purposes, I am not asking you to read them

          24       all --

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think you may have seen that


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           1       before --

           2   A.  I've got it.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- last time.

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  If you need more time to read it, please say.

           5       But you'll see that one of the relevant -- or perhaps

           6       the relevant entries -- relating to the 4th are at the

           7       bottom.  If we have your note recently provided

           8       alongside, I want to ask you in relation to each of

           9       these parts of it some questions that have already been

          10       asked.

          11           On your note, made on the 4th, the first

          12       recollection you put down was:

          13           "MD is at a girlfriend's address."

          14           Right, pausing on that.  You will see, looking at

          15       the record the jury already have, that there is no

          16       reference to MD being at his girlfriend's address; do

          17       you see that?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  So that is new, that you have that.  What I want to ask

          20       you is: when did you know that he was at his

          21       girlfriend's address?

          22   A.  I knew that when the intelligence -- when I received the

          23       intelligence at 5.10/5.15.

          24   Q.  You knew that then.  Did you then pass that information

          25       to ZZ17, the intelligence officer the jury have heard


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           1       from before?  Did you tell them Duggan is at his

           2       girlfriend's address?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  You did.  There are reasons I ask you.  I don't know

           5       whether you were aware that there had already been

           6       surveillance on his address the night before; did you

           7       know about that?

           8   A.  Yes, I was aware, yes.

           9   Q.  You were aware.  Same address, all right.  So they knew

          10       that on the 4th.  Then you've got:

          11           "MD will be catching a cab ..."

          12           That's not dissimilar from "would be imminently

          13       travelling".  Then in your note you've got "to KHF",

          14       whereas the version we have already indicates Vicarage

          15       Road.  So is it that you had, when you made the note,

          16       forgotten the address or you left it out on purpose?

          17   A.  Sorry, what address, sir?

          18   Q.  If you look at what we've now been provided with, it

          19       says:

          20           "MD will be catching a cab over to KHF to collect

          21       the firearm."

          22           That version doesn't include what is on the

          23       original -- I say original -- on another version, which

          24       the jury already have.  If you look down C9 -- do you

          25       have that?


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           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  If you look down towards the bottom, the penultimate

           3       paragraph, is a gist of the information that you had at

           4       17.10.  It doesn't relate to Mr Duggan's address, from

           5       which he's coming from, but it does talk about the

           6       minicab to Vicarage Road in Leyton.  Now, had you

           7       forgotten that when you made the note at 6.40 or did you

           8       just leave it out on purpose?

           9   A.  Sir, that note, as I said, is an aide memoire for me in

          10       the future.  So it was a quick note that was jotted

          11       down.  It's not the full facts, it's just for me to

          12       refresh my memory later on.

          13   Q.  Yes, I understand that.  But the question is: did you

          14       leave the Leyton address out on purpose?

          15   A.  The Vicarage Road part?

          16   Q.  That's right, yes.

          17   A.  I may have done, but I've just used that as a note.

          18       I haven't used it as a full statement.  This actual note

          19       is written on A4 paper, photocopying paper, it's not

          20       written on headed notepaper, Metropolitan Police or SOCA

          21       paper.

          22   Q.  Did anyone else know that you had written it down?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Did ZZ17 know that you had written it down?

          25   A.  No.


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           1   Q.  So the only other person who knew, would this be right,

           2       summarising it, is somebody else in SOCA?

           3   A.  That is correct.  It is a note written at the time,

           4       handed over to my manager, who I asked to keep it safe

           5       for a future date.

           6   Q.  Did you have access to that note before you made

           7       statements for this Inquest?

           8   A.  Sir, all of the material that is from SOCA has been

           9       available to this Inquiry, including that note.

          10   Q.  Yes.  I am not questioning that, I'm asking whether you

          11       had access to the note before you made your statements.

          12   A.  All of the statements I've supplied to the court have

          13       been specifically requested by the court.

          14   Q.  Yes.  If it's a question you can't answer, obviously

          15       I won't pursue it but did you have access to your

          16       written note before you made your statements?

          17   A.  I didn't use the note to make my statements because they

          18       were specific questions that were asked of me to supply

          19       to the court.

          20   Q.  Right.  Can we go to the next sentence in your note:

          21           "KHF is ... at the same address he was at yesterday

          22       lunchtime when he was with the female holding at least

          23       2 firearms for KHF."

          24           You have explained the two firearms aspect of this

          25       but I want to ask you a little more.  This was a note


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           1       written on the 4th referring back to the 3rd, all right,

           2       plainly, isn't it?

           3   A.  The intelligence in relation to the two firearms came

           4       from the original intelligence.

           5   Q.  Yes.  But the question I want to ask you is: on

           6       3 August, did you have intelligence that Kevin

           7       Hutchinson-Foster, at lunchtime, was with a female

           8       holding at least one firearm, if not two?

           9   A.  That is correct, yes.

          10   Q.  You did.  Now, on the 3rd, did you tell ZZ17 that you

          11       had that intelligence?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  I want to move back in time.  I'm going to come back to the

          14       address in a second.

          15           On 2 August, that's the day -- obviously the day

          16       before the 3rd -- did you have intelligence about Kevin

          17       Hutchinson-Foster being with the female?

          18   A.  On the 2nd?

          19   Q.  Yes.

          20   A.  (Pause)

          21           I don't believe so, sir.

          22   Q.  Now, I appreciate I am not wishing this to be a test of

          23       memory.  In order to, as it were, confirm or deny, as

          24       they put it in the business, whether he was with the

          25       female on the 2nd, do you need to have access to the


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           1       records?

           2   A.  If I can refer to my statement?

           3   Q.  Yes.  Well, you're welcome to look at your statement,

           4       but as the jury can see, from what we already have,

           5       there is no mention of the 3rd, which you have just

           6       confirmed you did have, that's not in any of the

           7       statements and there's nothing about you knowing that he

           8       was with the female on the 2nd but by all means look at

           9       your statements.

          10   A.  What I can say, sir, is that, certainly on the 1st, we

          11       had intelligence that the female -- that's when we first

          12       learnt of a female, holding one of the firearms --

          13   Q.  Yes.

          14   A.  -- and it was at that stage that we was aware that the

          15       female was not available until mid-to-late evening,

          16       possibly after 9 o'clock in the evening.

          17   Q.  Yes, I appreciate that.  But, as the jury can see, the

          18       information you had on the 3rd was slightly different so

          19       I want to ask you this question: we now know what you

          20       knew on the 3rd, and really the question is whether on

          21       the 2nd, in fact, there was intelligence to suggest that

          22       Hutchinson-Foster was with the woman who had a firearm

          23       or more, at any point in the day on the 2nd.

          24   A.  The intelligence on the 2nd was that the female, again,

          25       was not available until after 9 o'clock in the evening.


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           1   Q.  Yes.  That's not quite the question.  Did you have any

           2       intelligence that at any time on the 2nd, that Kevin

           3       Hutchinson-Foster was with the female?  At any point on

           4       the 2nd.

           5   A.  I believe that it was referred (inferred?) that Kevin

           6       Hutchinson-Foster was with the female.

           7   Q.  Right.  I now want to deal with the question of the

           8       location.

           9           You have made it very clear that you didn't know the

          10       house number and you didn't know the street, so I am not

          11       going back over that.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Would it be fair to say that you did know the

          14       whereabouts -- I'm putting it that way -- of Kevin

          15       Hutchinson-Foster -- I'll stick with the 3rd for the

          16       moment -- on the 3rd, you knew the whereabouts of him?

          17   A.  The intelligence was, on the 3rd, that around lunchtime

          18       he was at the female's address where it was believed the

          19       firearm was being held.

          20   Q.  Yes.  The geographic location was smaller than just

          21       Leyton, was it not?

          22   A.  There was an area, a possible area, which was --

          23   Q.  Right.  Was the possible area -- is it possible --

          24       sorry, I know it's a bit difficult to calculate -- was

          25       it an area that was a mile square or something like that


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           1       or you are not able to say?

           2   A.  A rough area, I would say, is -- if Lea Bridge Road --

           3       it would be along Lea Bridge Road and the problem is, on

           4       Lea Bridge Road, to the left is Walthamstow and to the

           5       right is Leyton.  The indications were that it was

           6       towards the Leyton side rather than the Walthamstow side

           7       of Lea Bridge Road.

           8   Q.  Thank you, that's helpful.

           9           Now, just going back to the 3rd for a moment, can

          10       you help as to what point on the day of the 3rd you had

          11       intelligence that he was on the Leyton side of Lea

          12       Bridge Road with the woman who had at least one firearm?

          13   A.  The time of day would be around lunchtime.

          14   Q.  At the lunchtime period.  Now, on the 4th, so moving

          15       forward one day, did you also, at lunchtime on the 4th,

          16       have intelligence that he was at the same Leyton side of

          17       the Lea Bridge Road as he was on the 3rd?

          18   A.  At lunchtime?

          19   Q.  Yes, on the 4th?

          20   A.  No, sir.

          21   Q.  So the intelligence that he was at the same address as

          22       he had been at lunchtime the day before came through

          23       shortly after 5 o'clock on the 4th --

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  -- is that right?


                                            19
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  I'm trying to be careful about it.  Now, I want to pass

           3       over to ZZ17 and if you cannot answer -- ZZ17 would be

           4       familiar with SOCA, wouldn't he?  I mean the

           5       organisation, as it then was.

           6   A.  Yes, I would -- he would have had dealings with me, yes.

           7   Q.  Dealings with you.  Did he ever visit you in premises?

           8       I don't want to know where they are.  Did he ever visit

           9       as opposed to just ring up?

          10   A.  He has been to SOCA, yes.

          11   Q.  He has been, so he knows it.  He would also be aware --

          12       and I'm not asking you divulge what they are -- he would

          13       also be aware of your operational capabilities, wouldn't

          14       he?

          15   A.  Some of them, yes.

          16   Q.  Of course he may not know everything but he would know

          17       some of the, can I put it this way, key capabilities

          18       that might enable you to give him high grade

          19       intelligence about location; would that be fair?

          20   A.  He may, I'm not sure, so I cannot answer for him but I'm

          21       not sure if he knows what facilities we have.

          22   Q.  Did he ever ask you any questions about the intelligence

          23       that you were giving him or not?

          24   A.  I don't understand the question.

          25   Q.  Did he ever -- well, I'm trying to be careful about the


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       questions, just as you are about the answers.  Well,

           2       I'll put it this way: did he ever say "Can you be more

           3       precise" or anything of that kind, in relation to the

           4       location?

           5   A.  I don't recall him asking me that.

           6   MR MANSFIELD:  You don't recall.  Thank you very much.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you very much.  Right,

           8       I think, Mr Keith, I have you next on my list.

           9                      Questions by MR KEITH

          10   MR KEITH:  A10, because we've heard from you now today and

          11       obviously some while back, can we be quite clear about

          12       the time and the date when you received intelligence

          13       that Mr Duggan would be travelling by minicab to

          14       Vicarage Road in Leyton to collect the firearm; when was

          15       that?

          16   A.  That was about -- between 5.10 and 5.15 on

          17       4 August 2011.

          18   Q.  Was that the first occasion on which you received

          19       intelligence which indicated a specific area where the

          20       firearm might be?

          21   A.  That is correct, yes.

          22   Q.  That is what had you told ZZ17?

          23   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

          24   Q.  Since you've been asked about ZZ17's operational

          25       understanding, let me ask you: did you anticipate,


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       envisage or in any way contemplate, that there could be

           2       any operational steps taken before you provided that

           3       vital piece of intelligence on the afternoon of the

           4       4 August?

           5   A.  No, sir.  All of the intelligence prior to 5.15 on that

           6       Thursday, 4 August, all the intelligence was in relation

           7       to the availability of the firearm being after 9 o'clock

           8       in the evening when the female had finished work.

           9   Q.  Can you conceive of any operational way, any way in

          10       which an operation could have been mounted, to intercept

          11       the gun before you provided that intelligence on the

          12       afternoon of 4 August?

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you feel able to answer that in

          14       your position?  If you don't, please don't.  I am not

          15       talking about intelligence, I'm talking about the fact

          16       you are not a firearms officer.

          17   A.  I can -- I can give my personal view.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Give it a stab then, A10, you tell

          19       us.

          20   A.  All of the intelligence -- what was clear with the

          21       intelligence, was that Mark Duggan was going to go and

          22       collect a firearm.  That was -- all of the intelligence,

          23       every single day was Mark Duggan was going to collect

          24       a firearm.

          25           In relation to where it was stored, who was going to


                                            22
 

 

 


           1       deliver that firearm, that could have changed, but what

           2       was 100 per cent was that Mark Duggan intended to

           3       collect the firearm.  So with the intelligence that that

           4       was going to be after 9 o'clock in the evening, that was

           5       on the Monday, the Tuesday and the Wednesday, the 1st,

           6       2nd and the 3rd, all of that intelligence was about Mark

           7       Duggan collecting a firearm.

           8           So if you're asking me was it correct that they

           9       should have waited and paraded at 6 o'clock in the

          10       evening, that was the correct thing to do.

          11   MR KEITH:  Did you know before that time, on 4 August,

          12       around about 5.10, where he was going to get the firearm

          13       from?

          14   A.  No, I did not know.  The first I knew was then that it

          15       was going to be in the Vicarage Road area.

          16   Q.  That afternoon?

          17   A.  That afternoon.

          18   Q.  That was the first time you had ever concluded it was to

          19       be picked up from the Vicarage Road area?

          20   A.  That is correct, yes.

          21   Q.  That is what you, of course, told ZZ17 --

          22   A.  That is correct, yes, sir.

          23   Q.  -- and he took the steps that he did?

          24   A.  That is correct, sir.

          25   MR KEITH:  Thank you.


                                            23
 

 

 


           1   MR MANSFIELD:  I wonder if I might be permitted -- I have

           2       not done this very much -- but in view of the question

           3       that was asked about his anticipation of what could be

           4       done on an intercept and the answers that have been

           5       given, of course he's given it in relation to the 4th,

           6       but our contention is now that, if they had information

           7       on the 3rd, and that is very clearly what he said, that

           8       the issue of armed surveillance relating to Kevin

           9       Hutchinson-Foster and locating his address by

          10       a telephone call to the probation service, is one of

          11       those things that this witness probably didn't know

          12       anything about.  But that's what we say should have been

          13       happening on the 3rd at the very latest.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I understand that.  If you want to

          15       put it by way of a question -- is that what you are

          16       asking?

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes, if I may just put it.

          18                Further questions by MR MANSFIELD

          19   MR MANSFIELD:  If ZZ17 had, as you have indicated he did on

          20       the 3rd, information that Kevin Hutchinson-Foster -- at

          21       lunchtime not after 9 o'clock -- was at lunchtime with

          22       a woman who is holding at least one firearm, one of the

          23       options open to ZZ17 would be to discover, of course,

          24       Kevin Hutchinson-Foster's address, wouldn't it?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            24
 

 

 


           1   Q.  A phone call to the prohibition service would have

           2       discovered it, did you know that?

           3   A.  I didn't know that, no.

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  I think Mr Stern?

           6   MR STERN:  No, thank you, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

           8   MR BUTT:  No, thank you, sir.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then after that I have Ms Dobbin?

          10   MS DOBBIN:  No, thank you.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

          12   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, Ms Leek?

          14   MS LEEK:  No, thank you, sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Back to you then, Mr Underwood.

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  I know that because of discussions between

          17       counsel, that there was concern about an issue which has

          18       in fact emerged from something that Mr Keith asked.

          19       I wonder if now might be a good time to have a break.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If we have slightly earlier the jury

          21       afternoon break -- I don't know what's going on either

          22       so don't worry about it, members of the jury, the more

          23       a state of ignorance that you and I are kept in at this

          24       stage probably the better.  But at the same time, we'll

          25       try to work this out.


                                            25
 

 

 


           1           You stay there, please, A10, just for a moment.

           2       We'll ask for the jury to give the usual break for the

           3       stenographers now, for five or ten minutes, so I'll ask

           4       for the camera to be turned off and we'll ask for the

           5       jury then to leave us for a short time.


                                            26
 

           7   (2.55 pm)

           8                         (A short break)

           9   (3.08 pm)


          20                  (In the presence of the jury)

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          22       jury, for having -- giving us that break.  We've been

          23       able to work out there were not any more questions for

          24       Mr A10, so he's been able to go back into his secrecy,

          25       never to be seen again, and we're able to go on with


                                            32
 

 

 


           1       witnesses who have names.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Jonathan Orford, please.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, let's have Mr Orford, please,

           4       thank you.

           5                    MR JONATHAN ORFORD (sworn)

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Come and have

           7       a seat then, please, and if you sit close to the

           8       microphone we'll be able to hear everything that you

           9       say.

          10                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Mr Orford.

          12   A.  Good afternoon, sir.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  My name's Underwood and I'm counsel to the

          14       Inquest.

          15   A.  My name's Jonathan Robert Orford.

          16   Q.  What is your occupation?

          17   A.  I'm a senior forensic practitioner for the Metropolitan

          18       Police Service.

          19   Q.  Was that your employment in August 2011?

          20   A.  Yes, it was.

          21   Q.  I want to ask you about 4 August of that year.  Did you

          22       go to the Ferry Lane scene --

          23   A.  Yes, I did.

          24   Q.  -- shortly before midnight?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            33
 

 

 


           1   Q.  What was the purpose in you going there?

           2   A.  I went there to offer my assistance in the capacity as

           3       a crime scene examiner, sir.

           4   Q.  Would you move that microphone that has a red light

           5       closer towards you.  Thank you very much.

           6           Did you take gunshot residue sample from Mr Duggan?

           7   A.  Yes, I did, sir.

           8   Q.  From his hands, from his face?

           9   A.  Yes, sir, from his left hand from his right hand from

          10       his face and his hair.

          11   Q.  Did you take a control sample?

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  What's the meaning of that, "control sample"?

          14   A.  A control sample -- you take a control sample of your

          15       ungloved hands before you start so that the scientists

          16       can get an idea of the background reading of gunshot

          17       residue at the scene.

          18   Q.  Then you presumably passed that kit with the samples in

          19       on for analysis by someone else, did you?

          20   A.  That's correct, sir.

          21   Q.  We'll hear from them anon.  Can I just ask you to look

          22       at your examination report, please, at CD7627, it will

          23       come up on the screen, if you have a copy you can look

          24       at that.  Is this your examination report relating to

          25       that event?


                                            34
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, it is, sir.

           2   Q.  Did you make it up at the time?

           3   A.  Yes, I did.

           4   Q.  If we just look at the script where it says details of

           5       examination, you say:

           6           "Attended scene: a crime scene log was in operation

           7       and I was logged in at 2358 hours by [redacted]

           8       a Police Constable.  Full, forensic protective clothing

           9       worn.  Information from CSM Larrigan -- minicab carrying

          10       two suspects involved in hard stop in a preplanned op by

          11       CO19.  Not known whether suspect shot at police."

          12           Is that correct?

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   Q.  Then you go on:

          15           "One officer received shot (damaged PR) ..."

          16           Is that his radio?

          17   A.  His police radio, yes.

          18   Q.  "... on his person, injuries unknown.  Police fired

          19       several shots, Glock/MP5)."

          20           Is that right?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  "Radio in covert vehicle ricochet.  Suspect weapon over

          23       fence -- police may have taken and thrown."

          24           Is that right?

          25   A.  Yes that's correct.


                                            35
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Tell us, please, if you can recall that briefing.

           2   A.  I can recall the briefing.  The Crime Scene Manager,

           3       Trish Larrigan, was briefing the other Crime Scene

           4       Manager that had just arrived, John Cockram, and I was

           5       present at that briefing and I was writing that down and

           6       getting as much information as I could as that briefing

           7       was taking place.

           8   Q.  Can you give us any help about what degree of certainty

           9       you were told these things with, in particular whether

          10       the gun was thrown?

          11   A.  I think it was one of a number of possibilities, I don't

          12       think that CSM Larrigan actually knew for sure how the

          13       gun came to be where it ended up, we don't know whether

          14       it was -- she didn't know whether it was thrown by

          15       police, possibly kicked or it could have been thrown by

          16       one of the persons of interest.

          17   Q.  Right.

          18   A.  It was just a possibility -- one of a number of

          19       possibilities she was considering.

          20   Q.  This other factor you have written down here:

          21           "Not known whether suspect shot at police."

          22           Can you help the jury with what degree of certainty

          23       was involved in that?

          24   A.  There was no certainty.  Again, it was one of a number

          25       of possible considerations because I don't know where


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       Ms Larrigan was getting the information from, what her

           2       sources were but information was coming in, I think,

           3       fragmented, and at the time she didn't know exactly what

           4       was happening, she was trying to piece information

           5       together.

           6           So again it was a number of a possibilities.  We

           7       didn't know whether an officer had been shot or whether

           8       a bullet had gone into his police radio.  So it was

           9       just, again, just possibilities that were being --

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, Mr Orford.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Yes Mr Straw.

          12                      Questions by MR STRAW

          13   MR STRAW:  I represent the family of Mr Duggan.  Just a few

          14       questions.

          15   A.  Sir.

          16   Q.  Could you please put up that note on the screen again,

          17       please, the examination report, and it's just the entry

          18       on there "police may have taken gun and thrown" that I'm

          19       interested in?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  You have noted -- you have there "around about

          22       midnight", presumably you weren't aware of what the CO19

          23       officers were saying about how the gun got to the verge

          24       earlier on?

          25   A.  No, I didn't know at that time, sir.


                                            37
 

 

 


           1   Q.  There's no suggestion in your notes, is there -- you

           2       haven't written down that Mr Duggan might have thrown

           3       it?

           4   A.  No, I haven't written that down.

           5   Q.  The only possibility written there is that the police

           6       threw it?

           7   A.  Yes, sir, that's the one.

           8   MR STRAW:  Thank you very much.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Let's just see.

          10           Mr Stern, do you have any questions?

          11   MR STERN:  No, thank you sir.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

          13   MR BUTT:  No, thank you, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then I do have, Ms Leek.

          15   MS LEEK:  No, thank you, sir.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Ms Dobbin is no longer with us.

          17           Mr Glasson?

          18   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

          20   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  There we are.  Any

          22       re-examination, Mr Underwood?

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you very much,

          25       Mr Orford.  That concludes the evidence you have come to


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       assist the jury with so thank you very much.  You are

           2       free now to go.

           3   A.  Thank you, thanks.

           4                      (The witness withdrew)

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  PC Fitzgibbon, please.

           6             POLICE CONSTABLE PAUL FITZGIBBON (sworn)

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, come and have

           8       a seat.

           9                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Constable.

          11   A.  Good afternoon.

          12   Q.  My name's Underwood and I'm counsel to the Inquest,

          13       I start the questioning off.  Can you give us your full

          14       name please?

          15   A.  Yes, it's Paul Michael Fitzgibbon.

          16   Q.  Are you a Metropolitan Police Constable?

          17   A.  Yes, I am.

          18   Q.  Were you in August 2011?

          19   A.  Yes, I was.

          20   Q.  On 5 August were you at the Ferry Lane scene as a search

          21       officer?

          22   A.  I was.

          23   Q.  I want to ask you, first of all, what you were briefed

          24       about the way in which the incident had occurred; can

          25       you help us with that?


                                            39
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, I can.

           2   Q.  Please do.

           3   A.  (Pause)

           4           Okay.  At 0912 hours we attended the scene to assist

           5       PS Hanningan with deciding the search parameters and at

           6       9.45 I attended a briefing given by PC Hannigan.  At

           7       8.15 -- sorry.  (Pause)

           8           Sorry, I just got to find it in my notes.  (Pause)

           9           Here we go, sorry:

          10           "At approximately 18.15 on 4 August 2011, SCD8 along

          11       with SCO19 were following a taxi in Ferry Lane when they

          12       decided to make a hard stop when the subject passenger

          13       in the taxi of a Toyota minicab got out of the vehicle

          14       and shot at police, apparently.  Police returned fire,

          15       causing fatal injuries to the subject.  A police officer

          16       was shot causing minor injuries.  The incident happened

          17       at Ferry Lane ..."

          18           Then the CAD reference number, which is the incident

          19       number, was 8275, refers for the 4 August 2011.

          20   Q.  Were you to search for spent ammunition cartridges or

          21       rounds?

          22   A.  That's correct, yes.

          23   Q.  Can I ask you to look, please, at a plan, CE30.  We can

          24       see a drawing there of cars marked A, B, C and D and the

          25       minicab with the registration number in there.


                                            40
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  Then if we look down to the bottom right-hand corner, we

           3       have tasks?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Task 1 is police vehicle A, task 2 is police vehicle B,

           6       that's the Bravo car --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- task 3 is police vehicle C, the Charlie car, and

           9       task 4 is police vehicle D, task 5 is the Toyota itself.

          10           Were you given task 2?

          11   A.  I was given originally task 2 to complete, yes.

          12   Q.  Did you, in the course of that, find anything by or on

          13       the front nearside tyre?

          14   A.  No, I didn't personally but my colleague found it,

          15       a PC Harris (?).  I actually witnessed her finding that

          16       in the tyre, yes.

          17   Q.  What was that?

          18   A.  It was just a small piece of metal which was embedded

          19       into the tyre.  It was a fragment -- it could have been

          20       anything, it could have been something that was picked

          21       up from the road or it could have been something that

          22       was involved in the incident.

          23           As what we were dealing with, then we put it up the

          24       Exhibits Officer for him to examine and then for him to

          25       decide whether he wanted to seize it.


                                            41
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Very well.  Then did you do task 5 as well, which is the

           2       search around the minicab?

           3   A.  Yes, I did, yes.

           4   Q.  Did you have anything to do with finding blood

           5       spattering?

           6   A.  Yes, I did.

           7   Q.  Tell us about that, please.

           8   A.  Whilst searching the area around it, I found on the

           9       passenger door a small blood spattering.  I also pointed

          10       that out to DC Payne, who -- at the time of the

          11       things -- when I found it, I stopped my search and then

          12       pointed that out to him.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, officer, if you would

          14       wait there, please.

          15   A.  Thank you.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Straw, Mr Mansfield?

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  No, thank you.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern?  Mr Butt?  Mr Glasson?

          19       Ms Leek?

          20           Mr Keith?

          21                      Questions by MR KEITH

          22   MR KEITH:  Just this, please, PC Fitzgibbon.  When you were

          23       given the briefing --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  -- were you able to gain any understanding as to how


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       definite the circumstances were that were described to

           2       you in the briefing or was it a working hypothesis or

           3       what?

           4   A.  It was a working hypothesis.  There was no hard concrete

           5       evidence of what had actually happened.

           6   Q.  Thank you.  Your search around the minicab, task 5, do

           7       you mean by that that it was a search of the road

           8       surfaces round the minicab or the actual doors and

           9       exterior surfaces of the minicab?

          10   A.  Basically, I was tasked with searching the road and also

          11       the outside of the actual vehicle itself.

          12   Q.  So not the inside?

          13   A.  Not the inside.  Because at that particular point, that

          14       was the -- the vehicle was going to be removed.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  You were searching before it

          16       was going to be --

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   MR KEITH:  Where did you understand it was going to be moved

          19       to?

          20   A.  It was going to go to Perivale to be searched for

          21       forensic --

          22   Q.  For a forensic search?

          23   A.  Yes, that's right.

          24   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

          25               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER


                                            43
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In searching it, you were looking at

           2       the minicab and underneath it or is that search once it

           3       was taken away by other people?

           4   A.  I was looking -- basically, I was looking to see under

           5       the vehicle to see if I could find anything, any

           6       cartridges or anything like that, but the outside skin

           7       of the vehicle to see if there were any marks or

           8       blemishes or anything else that could assist with the

           9       forensics.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That included the open rear door on

          11       the nearside, did it?

          12   A.  Just going along, yes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay, thank you very much.  Yes, any

          14       other questions, Mr Underwood.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising out of that, thank you.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much then, Police

          17       Constable Fitzgibbon.

          18   A.  Thank you very much.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are free now to go.

          20   A.  Thank you.

          21                      (The witness withdrew)

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Those are the three witnesses we have for

          23       this afternoon.  In addition, I need to read a statement

          24       of Mr Vaughan, which is an expert opinion.  Perhaps

          25       copies of that could go up to the jury.  That's CS521.


                                            44
 

 

 


           1       (Handed)

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Yes, it includes the

           3       second statement, 528.  Right, yes, please, if that can

           4       be put in.  How are you getting on with your dividers,

           5       members of the jury?  I hope you have yours, I haven't

           6       got mine but I'm sure I'll get some.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think this is going to be C25.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Put it in the next one, C25, is it?

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, C25.

          11   MICHAEL JOHN KENYON VAUGHAN (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  It's a statement of Michael John Kenyon

          13       Vaughan of 8 September 2011.  Towards the bottom of the

          14       first page he says:

          15           "I am an expert in a field of forensic science and

          16       I have been requested to provide a statement."

          17           Over the page, picking it up halfway down you under

          18       "Qualifications and experience" Mr Vaughan says:

          19           "I have a honours degree in mechanical engineering

          20       and have worked as a forensic scientist, specialising in

          21       the examination of firearms and related items, since

          22       September 1992.

          23           "Request and information received.

          24           "I was asked by Crime Scene Manager Trish Larrigan,

          25       to attend the scene of a fatal police shooting at Ferry


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       Lane, Tottenham, on the evening of Thursday

           2       4 August 2011.

           3           "The purpose of my attendance was to help interpret

           4       the circumstances surrounding the shooting.

           5           "I was told that four police covert vehicles had

           6       been involved in a "hard stop" on an MPV minicab

           7       carrying a suspect under surveillance.  Initial reports

           8       were of three shots having been fired; one from the

           9       suspect and two from the police.

          10           "It was thought that the suspect had fired on police

          11       when stopped and that police had returned fire.

          12           "Observations.

          13           "I arrived at Ferry Lane at 22.10 on 4 August 2011.

          14       Four covert police cars and the MPV minicab were in

          15       situ.  The lead police vehicle (Lexus) had mounted the

          16       kerb in front of the minicab (Toyota Lucida), the second

          17       police vehicle (BMW saloon) was to the offside of the

          18       minicab, with the third (BMW estate) and fourth police

          19       vehicles (Land Rover) at the rear.  The deceased was

          20       lying on the pavement, on his back, under a protective

          21       scene tent adjacent to the BMW estate with his head

          22       uppermost on the slight gradient towards the lead

          23       vehicle.

          24           "I was informed that a firearm in a sock had been

          25       identified and it was now protected in another scene


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       tent on a grassed area just below the level of the

           2       pavement on the other side of some railings.  I was told

           3       that an Armed Response Vehicle (ARV) team had been

           4       called to make the gun safe and I was asked to get as

           5       much information as I could about the weapon as they

           6       went about this.  The gun was found on its left side.

           7       The sock covering it had some holes in it.

           8           "The safety lever at the rear of the slide could be

           9       seen to be in the horizontal, or up/off safe position

          10       through one hole, and the muzzle of the gun could be

          11       seen through another.

          12           "The ARV team removed the magazine revealing it to

          13       be charged with one bulleted cartridge.  They went on to

          14       find the chamber of the weapon to be clear.  I was able

          15       to see that the gun was a BBM Bruni Mod 92.  I could

          16       also see that this was originally a blank firing gun but

          17       that the original blocked dummy barrel had been removed

          18       and replaced with a metal tube.  The gun could now fire

          19       bulleted ammunition.

          20           "I saw no gunshot damage to any of the vehicles.

          21           "I saw a police radio in a holster on the ground on

          22       top of some body armour between the deceased man's body

          23       and the lead vehicle.  There was a bullet hole through

          24       the holster going into the radio.  There was no exit

          25       hole in the radio and there appeared to be grey metallic


                                            47
 

 

 


           1       material, consistent with being an improvised projectile

           2       retained in the radio.  Subsequent examination has shown

           3       that in actual fact this grey material was likely to be

           4       part of the internal construction of the radio since

           5       a complete, fired, conventional jacketed hollow-point

           6       9mm Parabellum calibre bullet was found in the holster

           7       once the radio was removed from it at the Forensic

           8       Science Service's London laboratory."

           9           Pausing there, in this statement no exhibit number

          10       is given to that bullet:

          11           "Just to the other side of the centre line of the

          12       road, adjacent to the blocking vehicles was a single

          13       fired 9mm Parabellum cartridge case.  This bore the

          14       headstamp of the Federal Cartridge company along with

          15       markings indicative of it having been fired from an H&K

          16       MP5 carbine as opposed to a Glock self-loading pistol.

          17           "I identified a further fired cartridge case of the

          18       same make and type under the police BMW estate, towards

          19       the kerb, behind its front nearside wheel.

          20           That's the Charlie car of course:

          21           "I had a brief view of the deceased in situ to

          22       assess any immediately apparent gunshot wounds and

          23       I noticed an apparent gunshot entry wound to the front

          24       right-hand side of his chest above a transverse

          25       thoracotomy incision.


                                            48
 

 

 


           1           "I briefed the investigation team with my findings

           2       in the light of information received so far before

           3       leaving the scene at 03.05 on 5 August 2011.

           4           "Laboratory examination and comparison work.

           5           "On and after 15 August 2011 I took possession of

           6       items described to me on laboratory submission

           7       forms ..."

           8           He gives the references.  There's:

           9           "JMA/10 ... one black harness and radio.

          10           "JMA/1 ... one black handgun.

          11           "RES/1 ... one bullet/casing -- mushroom shape --

          12       silver plus copper in colour."

          13           RES/1 is the bullet found that was found in the bag

          14       inside the car.  Then:

          15           "AJE/6 ... one MP5"

          16           That's V53's MP5:

          17           "JMA/13 ... one shell casing.

          18           "JMA/9 ... one shell casing."

          19           Those are two shell casings found at the scene:

          20           "JMA/3 ... one empty magazine."

          21           That's the magazine from the Bruni:

          22           "JMA/4 ... one live round."

          23           That's the round that was found in the magazine in

          24       the Bruni:

          25           "Request.


                                            49
 

 

 


           1           "I was asked to identify and classify items JMA/1,

           2       [the Bruni] JMA/3 [the magazine] and JMA/4 [the round]

           3       and provide test-fired ammunition from JMA/1 for

           4       comparison against the National Open Case File.

           5           "I was also asked to establish whether or not the

           6       submitted MP5 carbine, item AJE/6, had fired the

           7       cartridge cases, JMA/9 and 13, the bullet, item RES/1,

           8       and if it had fired a shot into the radio item JMA/10.

           9           "Results.

          10           "JMA/1 was a BBM Bruni Mod 92, blank firing,

          11       self-loading pistol.  Its original blocked dummy barrel

          12       had been replaced with a smooth-bored metal tube.  It

          13       was originally chambered to fire 8mm blank calibre

          14       ammunition but was now adapted to fire 9mm ammunition

          15       which had been modified by the addition of projectiles.

          16       I test fired this gun, recovering fired bullets and

          17       cartridge cases for onward transfer to the Metropolitan

          18       Police Service Forensic Firearms Unit, formerly the

          19       National Ballistics Intelligence Service Southern Hub.

          20       This transfer was to facilitate checks against the

          21       National Open Case File.

          22           "I found the gun to function with potentially lethal

          23       effects.  It was therefore a firearm for the purposes of

          24       section 57(1) of the Firearms Act 1968.  Owing to its

          25       dimensions it was also a prohibited weapon as defined in


                                            50
 

 

 


           1       section 5(1)(aba) of that Act as amended by

           2       section (1)(2) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997.

           3           "JMA/3 was a double column box magazine suitable for

           4       use in the pistol above.  Its magazine lips had been

           5       spread, creating small splits in the metal, visible at

           6       the rear at its top.  In my opinion this widening of its

           7       charging aperture had been done to accommodate larger,

           8       modified 9mm PAK calibre cartridges in place of the

           9       original 6mm blank calibre ones it had been designed

          10       for.

          11           "JMA/4 was an unfired modified 9mm PAK calibre

          12       cartridge.  It had originally been made as a blank

          13       cartridge but its plastic seal at its case mouth had

          14       been removed and replaced with an improvised, apparently

          15       lead, projectile.  The cartridge case length had also

          16       been reduced from its original 22mm to approximately

          17       17mm.  I disassembled it and found it to contain viable

          18       components.  I would regard it as live ammunition

          19       subject to restriction under provisions of

          20       section 1(1)(b) of the Firearms Act 1968.  In my

          21       opinion, it had been adapted in a way that would allow

          22       it to be fired from the weapon, JMA/1 above, with

          23       potentially lethal effect.

          24           "I examined a bullet recovered from the radio

          25       harness, JMA/10.  This was an impact damaged, expanded,


                                            51
 

 

 


           1       jacketed hollow point, 9mm Parabellum calibre

           2       projectile.  I compared marks produced on this by the

           3       barrel of the gun from which it was fired, with marks on

           4       a similar bullet submitted as item RES/1 [the bullet in

           5       the bag].  Significant detailed agreement in the marks

           6       that I saw led me to conclude that both bullets had been

           7       fired from the same weapon.

           8           "Similarly, I microscopically examined two 9mm

           9       Parabellum calibre cartridge cases recovered from the

          10       scene of the shooting as items JMA/9 and JMA/13.

          11       Detailed agreement in marks produced on these when they

          12       were fired led me to conclude that they too had been

          13       fired from the same weapon.

          14           "I test fired the submitted MP5 carbine, item AJE/6,

          15       and recovered bullets and cartridge cases for comparison

          16       purposes.  Significant detailed agreement in marks that

          17       I found on these, compared to marks on items from JMA/9,

          18       JMA/10, JMA/13 and RES/1 led me to conclude that AJE/6

          19       was responsible for firing those bullets and cartridge

          20       cases.

          21           "Conclusions.

          22           "JMA/1, recovered at the shooting scene was

          23       a firearm for the purposes of section 57(1) of the

          24       Firearms Act 1968.  It was prohibited by

          25       section 5(1)(aba) of that Act as amended owing to its


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       dimensions.

           2           "The modified cartridge, JMA/4, was, in my opinion,

           3       live ammunition for a firearm and subject to restriction

           4       under provisions of section 1(1)(b) of the Firearms Act

           5       1968.

           6           "In the condition it was found, JMA/1 could have

           7       been put into a fireable condition by retracting and

           8       releasing its slide.  In my opinion this could be done

           9       whilst the gun was in a sock.

          10           "The fired material from Ferry Lane demonstrated

          11       that two shots were fired from the police MP5 carbine

          12       submitted as item AJE/6.  One of these shots had struck

          13       a police radio, item JMA/10.

          14           "I found nothing to indicate any further shots were

          15       fired from any gun or guns."

          16           So that's his --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There's a second statement there, do

          18       you want to refer to that?

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  I don't need to, it's just a minor

          20       correction.

          21           If it assists, since I'm asked, it's CS528.

          22           In a further statement, Mr Vaughan made, dated

          23       26 January 2012 says:

          24           "I was asked to prepare a further statement to

          25       clarify the reasoning behind my classification of item


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       JMA/1, a converted imitation BBM model 92 self-loading

           2       pistol which I had given in previous reports under

           3       operation names Glasston and Oldhamstrock.

           4           "Item JMA/1 had a barrel which measured

           5       12.6 centimetres in length and it had an overall length

           6       of 24.3 centimetres.

           7           "Following my earlier examination I had concluded

           8       item JMA/1 was a prohibited weapon for the purposes of

           9       section 5(1)(aba) of the Firearms Act 1968 as amended,

          10       owing to its dimensions."

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

          12   MR STERN:  Can I just clarify one matter because the way

          13       that my learned friend read it, in relation to the gun

          14       being "up/off safe", we heard the evidence of PC Green

          15       that in fact the vehicle (sic) was off safe, in other

          16       words it was not in a safety mode.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The safety catch wasn't on the gun?

          18   MR STERN:  Exactly.  That's the way of putting it.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That was his evidence.

          20   MR STERN:  Yes, exactly.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Yes then, Mr Underwood,

          22       what's the position now?

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  That does conclude the evidence for today.

          24       Tomorrow, we have three experts dealing with

          25       fingerprints, and the like, and we have Mr Tomei, who's


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       the first of the ballistics experts, who will deal with

           2       the shots fired by V53.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  So there we are, members

           4       of the jury, an early afternoon for us -- an early

           5       morning too, but not to worry; it shows good progress if

           6       we are getting through witnesses comparatively speedily.

           7       Tomorrow, a number of expert witnesses and such like for

           8       us to deal with, so I ask you now to leave us and be

           9       ready for a 10.30 start tomorrow then, please.  All

          10       right, thank you very much.

          16   (3.39 pm)

          17        (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Tuesday,

          18                        12 November 2013)

          19
               A10 (re-sworn) .......................................1
          20
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................2
          21
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD .......................11
          22
                   Questions by MR KEITH ...........................21
          23
                   Further questions by MR MANSFIELD ...............24
          24
               Discussion re evidence of A10 .......................26
          25
               MR JONATHAN ORFORD (sworn) ..........................33

                                            55
 

 

 


           1
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................33
           2
                   Questions by MR STRAW ...........................37
           3
               POLICE CONSTABLE PAUL FITZGIBBON ....................39
           4             (sworn)

           5       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................39

           6       Questions by MR KEITH ...........................42

           7       Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ............43

           8   MICHAEL JOHN KENYON VAUGHAN .........................45
                         (statement read by MR
           9             UNDERWOOD)

          10

          11

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          13

          14

          15

          16

          17

          18

          19

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                            56