Transcript of the Hearing 16 October 2013

 

           1                                     Wednesday, 16 October 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           8                  (In the presence of the jury)

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Underwood?

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, today I have two witnesses.  There's DAC

          11       Hewitt and then Miss J.  Can I briefly explain what we

          12       have out of this?

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Please.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  DAC Hewitt is a very senior officer from the

          15       Metropolitan Police who will talk about the statistics

          16       showing guns, gun crime and how many stops there have

          17       been with what sort of results.

          18           Miss J is the lady I spoke of very early on who was

          19       in the Jarrow Road area, and around the green between

          20       Jarrow Road and Ferry Lane, who saw what she says was

          21       a gun in the hands of a police officer.  So two very

          22       different witnesses today.

          23           I will start with DAC Hewitt today, please.

          24      DEPUTY ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER MARTIN HEWITT (affirmed)

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Please have

 

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           1       a seat Mr Hewitt then you can give us your full details.

           2                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Mr Hewitt.

           4   A.  Good morning.

           5   Q.  As you know my name is Underwood and I'm counsel to the

           6       Inquest and I'll start the questions off.  Can you give

           7       us your full name and your rank, please?

           8   A.  My full name is Martin James Hewitt, I'm a Deputy

           9       Assistant Commissioner in the Metropolitan Police

          10       Service.

          11   Q.  I think you have you have kindly done a statement for us

          12       dated 6 September which has some statistical analysis at

          13       the back; is that right?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  First of all, are the contents of that statement true?

          16   A.  They are true.

          17   Q.  What I am proposing to do is hand copies of that out

          18       with the jury so the tables at the back in particular we

          19       can have for ready reference.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you are proposing to put to the

          21       jury -- so to make sure I've got the right tables, I've

          22       already got a copy as well in the same form.  (Handed)

          23           Thank you very much.  All right, members of the

          24       jury, this can be added to your jury bundle behind the

          25       next divider, which is?


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           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  C15.

           2           Before we come to those statistics, let me ask you

           3       some more general questions.  What's your actual role

           4       within the Metropolitan Police Service?

           5   A.  My role at the moment is Specialist Crime Operations.

           6       So I have responsibility for the specialist detectives

           7       within the Metropolitan Police Service, so those who are

           8       not based in boroughs, the officers that deal with

           9       murder, rape, child abuse, organised crime and gangs.

          10       Then I also have a line management responsibility for

          11       SCO19, which is the Specialist Firearms Command.

          12   Q.  And was CO19 at the time of our events.

          13   A.  It was CO19 at the time.

          14   Q.  Yes.  Historically, what's been your involvement in

          15       policing in relation to guns?

          16   A.  I've had an involvement on and off over a 20-year career

          17       but I think, particularly relevant for here, in 2009, in

          18       my previous rank, I was Commander of Organised Crime and

          19       Gangs and at that point I took over responsibility

          20       within the Metropolitan Police at Chief Officer level

          21       for being responsibility for tackling gun crime in

          22       London and kept that responsibility for three years, and

          23       in the last 18 months I line managed the person that's

          24       taken that responsibility over.

          25           So effectively, for the last four and a half years,


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           1       I've had the responsibility for tackling gun crime in

           2       London.

           3   Q.  We keep hearing about the Association of Chief Police

           4       Officers, ACPO; have you had anything to do with them?

           5   A.  Yes.  I work, as every force does -- there is an ACPO

           6       lead for armed policing so the way the system works is

           7       those of us that are at this level will take a lead in

           8       a particular subject and there is an ACPO lead for armed

           9       policing who's from another force.  So he has the

          10       national lead for policy and guidance in how armed

          11       policing is undertaken because it's undertaken similarly

          12       across the country and we will frequently liaise with

          13       that person from any of our learning and from our

          14       operational activity and our operational deployment of

          15       firearms all complies with the national -- the Manual of

          16       Guidance for the deployment of armed operations.

          17   Q.  When you were the lead within the MPS for that, did you

          18       have any input into the guidelines or just making sure

          19       that you were following them?

          20   A.  No, my input was not into the guidelines.  Just to be

          21       very clear, my role within the MPS was around our

          22       investigative and policing every effort to tackle gun

          23       crime in London, rather than specifically how we deploy

          24       armed officers, which was for someone else to do and

          25       that is the person to links in with the national


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           1       policing lead.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  ACPO isn't a gathering of the 40 or

           3       so Chief Constables it goes down the ranks to Assistant

           4       Chief Constables and Commanders and --

           5   A.  It does.  Every officer from Commander and Assistant

           6       Chief Constable up is a member of the Association of

           7       Chief Police Officers.

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  What is its purpose?

           9   A.  Its purpose is -- essentially, as you may be aware, the

          10       police service in England and Wales is broken up into

          11       43 independent forces and they are independent

          12       organisations.  So the purpose of ACPO is to ensure that

          13       at a chief officer level when we're deciding the

          14       policies, the way we're going to approach particular

          15       things, to speak nationally on behalf of the police

          16       service we use the ACPO -- national lead to speak on

          17       behalf of the police service.  So it's really about

          18       ensuring that policies, standards and practice are as

          19       uniform as they can be across the 43 forces.

          20   Q.  I want to ask you about guns in London now, if I may?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  First of all, in very broad terms, over the last, say,

          23       ten years, has the use of guns increased, decreased,

          24       stayed level?

          25   A.  I think it's probably a curve that saw an increase


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           1       running up to about 2008/2009 and since then, every year

           2       since 2009, we have had a reduction in the number of

           3       discharges of firearms, criminal discharges of firearms,

           4       the number of shootings -- and by a "shooting" I mean

           5       a discharge where a person is injured -- and also the

           6       number of fatalities as a result of guns.

           7           So there are a number of the murders that happen

           8       each year that are as a result of somebody being shot

           9       but there's been a reduction year on year in the number

          10       of shootings and the number of discharges since 2009.

          11   Q.  What's the Met's approach to illegal possession of guns?

          12   A.  Well, clearly it's a high priority, one of the key

          13       priorities for the organisation.  Our approach,

          14       essentially, is around tackling those elements of gun

          15       crime where we can exert some control.  So, for

          16       example -- it's a fairly simple plan that I put in place

          17       in 2009 -- so we need, obviously, to concentrate our

          18       efforts on those people that we know are those who are

          19       using or trying to use illegal firearms because what

          20       I would say is that still is a fairly small proportion

          21       of people in the city.

          22           We focus around those that are more likely to be

          23       victims.  I think one of the characteristics of gun

          24       crime in London is that it is very rarely somebody who's

          25       not involved with the criminality who is the victim.


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           1       There are unfortunate occasions when that happens but it

           2       is quite rare.  So often what we find is the people that

           3       are the gunmen are often the witnesses and the victims

           4       as well, as it moves around within that group, so

           5       vulnerable people and particularly dealing with threats

           6       to life where we become aware that somebody is at risk

           7       because somebody else is intending to use a firearm

           8       against them.

           9           We focus very much on those places where there is

          10       a prevalence of firearms.  So that might be a geographic

          11       area, it might be particular types of events.  So, for

          12       example, there were times where particularly around

          13       music and nightclub events there was a lot of gang

          14       criminality and a lot of firearms associated with that,

          15       so we put tactics in place to deal with that.  We

          16       clearly need to do very effective investigations.

          17           If you go back 10 or 12 years, where gun crime was

          18       increasing considerably and there was a great fear in

          19       communities because gunmen were not being convicted, so

          20       our investigations are vital that we are seen to be

          21       convicting gunmen and taking those dangerous people away

          22       and that provides community reassurance and allows

          23       communities to support us.

          24           The final and perhaps the most important aspect of

          25       that strategy has been around at every opportunity that


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           1       we get to take an illegal firearm off the streets.  We

           2       will take that opportunity as soon as it is safest for

           3       us to do so.  Because, whilst it sounds a little trite,

           4       it doesn't matter how determined you are to shoot

           5       somebody, if you cannot get hold of a firearm and you

           6       cannot get hold of ammunition that goes with that

           7       firearm at the time you want then you can't shoot

           8       somebody and I think some of our success has been driven

           9       by the fact that we've recovered lots of firearms from

          10       the streets and we will take every opportunity to do so.

          11   Q.  On that, we've heard a couple of things.  One is that

          12       guns tend to be, if you like, hired out so they will be

          13       used for one thing then given to somebody else.  The

          14       other is that while guns may be available ammunition may

          15       be quite a more difficult proposition.  What would you

          16       like to say about those two things?

          17   A.  I think that's correct.  There's often quite erroneous

          18       reporting, and particularly in drama it will be

          19       portrayed, that you can go and get a submachine gun or

          20       some other kind of weapon very easily and that

          21       absolutely is not the case.  It's very difficult for

          22       those who want to use firearms illegally to get viable

          23       working firearms and then to get the ammunition that

          24       goes with those firearms as well.  Bringing those

          25       together becomes quite challenging for them because we


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           1       are concentrating so hard on this.

           2           That's why you see an increase in the number of

           3       reactivated or converted weapons.  There's been

           4       an increase, in the last sort of 18 months, around the

           5       use of antique weapons, so very, very old weapons, and

           6       often sometimes those who wish to use firearms are

           7       manufacturing their own ammunition.

           8           So I'm confident that we are making it very

           9       difficult for people to get firearms, and one of the

          10       positive aspects about the fact that people are having

          11       to use those less effective weapons, I think, is

          12       a contributory factor to not only the fewer number of

          13       people that are actually shot, but particularly the

          14       fewer number of people that die as a result of being

          15       shot, because the ammunition is less good quality,

          16       because the weapons are less good quality.  So I think

          17       we are exerting control over the more viable and lethal

          18       weapons.

          19   Q.  Right.  In terms of gang culture and the use of drugs

          20       and enforcement of drug deals by guns and so on, how

          21       many outfits, organised criminal networks, or however

          22       you want to phrase them, are there, in broad terms?

          23   A.  Well, I mean I think there are two groups in that

          24       category and I think it's probably important for me to

          25       explain.


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           1           So organised criminals, I would say, would be more

           2       the group that I would describe as those that are using

           3       firearms in terms of drug business or armed robbers or

           4       offences where you are using weapons like that, and we

           5       map all of those groups that we know about and have

           6       intelligence on in London.  Certainly, in the kind of

           7       high harm level in that group, we would be talking

           8       around about 200 in London at any given point in time

           9       but there will clearly be other organised crime groups

          10       that are having an impact on this city.

          11           In gang terms, it fluctuates around about sort of

          12       450/500, dependent obviously over time.  Those groups

          13       will not all use firearms.  Some of those won't have

          14       access to or won't try to use firearms.  They will be at

          15       a lower level, and some of those groups at the upper

          16       levels will also be what I would also describe as proper

          17       organised crime groups, because they will be involved in

          18       drug importation, traditionally, but also into,

          19       sometimes, kind of protection rackets around particular

          20       areas where they deem themselves to have control.

          21           So it is a fairly significant number but I stress

          22       the point that not all of those would be seeking or

          23       capable of using firearms at any given point in time.

          24   Q.  While I'm on numbers, of the police establishment in

          25       London, how many are armed?


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           1   A.  If you take the figure as of today, we have around --

           2       it's 30,400 police officers in London and, of that

           3       number, it's just over 2,200 that are armed -- are

           4       authorised firearms officers.  But I do need to explain

           5       there are various groupings of those officers.  So it

           6       works out at just under 8 per cent of our police officer

           7       establishment are authorised to carry a firearm.

           8           But the number -- it's a small number of those that

           9       are in the Specialist Firearms Command, which is the

          10       unit that's relevant for our purposes here.

          11           You have all the officers that work at the airports

          12       and you'll see the armed officers at City Airport and at

          13       London Heathrow.  You have the officers who work within

          14       the Diplomatic Protection Group, you may see the red

          15       vehicles.  So they protect embassies, they protect

          16       diplomats and government buildings.  Then you have the

          17       officers in the Specialist Protection Commands, so those

          18       commands that protect VIPs, protect government ministers

          19       that also have protected status.  Then we have royalty

          20       protection that do the close protection work for members

          21       of the royal family.

          22           So you have all of those officers which is the bulk

          23       of the officers.  Within my arena, within specialist

          24       crime, we also have two other commands that have armed

          25       officers within them.  The first one is the Surveillance


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           1       Command.  Surveillance officers, the majority, but not

           2       all of surveillance officers are Authorised Firearms

           3       Officers.  They only ever carry the Glock pistol, so

           4       they have no long arms at all.  So they carry a Glock

           5       pistol and that is purely for personal protection or if

           6       an incident occurs in front of them when they're

           7       conducting surveillance and they need to intervene,

           8       either to protect themselves or to protect a member of

           9       the public.  They would be the officers who would be

          10       undercover surveilling to gather evidence and

          11       information and intelligence about people.

          12           Then the second group within the detective world is

          13       within the Flying Squad.  The Flying Squad deal

          14       specifically with armed robbery type offences and there

          15       are a small number of armed officers on the Flying

          16       Squad, again only armed with the Glock pistol, and again

          17       that's for self-protection when they are conducting

          18       their operations and, again, an ability, to a limited

          19       extent, to intervene if a situation occurs in front of

          20       them where they feel they have to intervene.

          21           Then you get the smaller number of officers who work

          22       within SCO19, CO19 as was, and that's around, just

          23       under -- it fluctuates a little bit -- around 490/500

          24       officers, and they are broken up into three groups.

          25           You have armed response vehicles, which are the


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           1       marked BMW vehicles that are on patrol 24 hours a day

           2       with three officers in each of those vehicles.  They are

           3       the ones that respond to a spontaneous call so when we

           4       get a call from a member of the public to say there is

           5       someone with a gun, there's an offence taking place

           6       where there's a gun --

           7   Q.  Take the killing at Woolwich?

           8   A.  Precisely.  That was an armed response vehicle that

           9       responded to the two suspects at Woolwich after the

          10       murder of Lee Rigby.

          11           Then you go to the tactical support teams, which

          12       was, as you know, the team involved in this case and the

          13       tactical support teams will all have been armed response

          14       vehicle officers, will be experienced armed response

          15       vehicle officers, and they have a range of additional

          16       skills that allows them to do a broader range of

          17       tactics.  Then finally you have what we call the

          18       specialist firearms officers, or to give their full team

          19       CT -- counter terrorism specialist firearms officers,

          20       and they are the most highly trained officers who have

          21       a further range of capabilities over and above the

          22       tactical support teams.

          23   Q.  In terms of the tactical support team that we are

          24       concerned with, in 2011 roughly how many officers?

          25   A.  I think roughly 25 and it's about that figure now, as


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           1       well.

           2   Q.  Before we move on to your charts, can I just ask you

           3       about what happens when an officer draws a firearm, and

           4       the post-incident procedures in terms of how he's made

           5       accountable for what he does?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  First of all, what use of a firearm has to be recorded

           8       and accounted for?

           9   A.  Any --

          10   Q.  Just drawing it or firing it or pointing it at someone

          11       or what?

          12   A.  Any use of a firearm will be accounted for.  So if

          13       an officer draws his weapon or her weapon during

          14       an operational deployment, then that clearly would be

          15       accounted for.

          16           If that weapon is discharged, ie fired, in either --

          17       either resulting in injury, no injury or in a fatality,

          18       then that would be an automatic -- it's automatically

          19       sent to the Independent Police Complaints Commission as

          20       a referral, as a matter of course.

          21           Did you want me to talk about post-incident

          22       procedure?

          23   Q.  I was going to stick on the IPCC for the moment.  The

          24       referral as a matter of course to the IPCC if a firearm

          25       is discharged, what's the purpose of that?  What is the


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           1       IPCC being asked to do then?

           2   A.  The purpose of that is -- as you will see from the

           3       statistics, is an extremely rare occurrence for the

           4       police to discharge a weapon.  If you take all of our

           5       armed deployments from 2010 through to the middle of

           6       2013, that comes to -- so spontaneous and preplanned --

           7       that comes to something just short of 16,000 deployments

           8       and in all of that time weapons were discharged on six

           9       occasions.

          10           So it is extraordinarily rare.  We clearly have to

          11       subject any use of a firearm to the greatest level of

          12       scrutiny possible and so therefore the Independent

          13       Police Complaints Commission, the IPCC, which is

          14       entirely independent from the police service, would be

          15       called in to provide that objectivity and independence

          16       because, clearly, I don't think it would be publicly

          17       acceptable if we discharge a firearm and it is on such

          18       rare occasions, for the public confidence, for us to

          19       then be investigating circumstances of that.  So that's

          20       the purpose of it going to the Independent Police

          21       Complaints Commission.

          22   Q.  Thank you.  Let's go to your charts now, if we may.

          23       Starting on the first one, which is -- it's towards the

          24       last half a dozen pages of your statement.  It's our

          25       CD32448.  It deals with discharges of firearms,


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           1       obviously not by police but --

           2   A.  No, absolutely not by police, no.

           3   Q.  -- for 2010 through to August this year, I think.  Just

           4       looking at the italicised parts at the bottom there, you

           5       say:

           6           "Discharges [equals] a count of gun crime offences

           7       with a recorded shots fired feature code."

           8           Can you help us on that?

           9   A.  Police statistics are somewhat complicated and can be

          10       quite confusing.  For something to be a discharge, it

          11       has to be a firearm has been fired and, in plain terms,

          12       something has come out the end of that firearm.

          13           But I think the important point to make about the

          14       figures, and you'll notice there are two columns for

          15       each year, an overall number of discharges, which if we

          16       take 2010 was 670, then it talks about "SC&O

          17       investigated".

          18           The investigation of any discharge of a firearm, of

          19       a lethal barrelled weapon, ie in plain language a proper

          20       gun, will be investigated by Trident gang crime command

          21       because they have the expertise to investigate all

          22       discharges of a lethal barrelled weapon.  Where the

          23       number is made up in the other column would be with air

          24       guns and BB guns and other less serious, shall we say,

          25       offences, and many of those will be dealt with by about


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           1       the local Borough because often it's children.

           2           But any lethal barrel weapon that is discharged,

           3       that's what we would call a proper gun and by the term

           4       "lethal barrel", ie it could kill somebody were they to

           5       be caught in that fire.

           6   Q.  Are you including shotguns in that?

           7   A.  Absolutely, absolutely.  So that would be shotguns,

           8       handguns, rifles, machine guns, submachine guns, any

           9       other type of automatic weapon.  It would be those type

          10       of weapons.

          11   Q.  So in terms of what the statistics show us then, looking

          12       at the "Investigated" column, there's 388 in 2010, 290

          13       in 2011, falling to 208 in 2012 and down to August this

          14       year, 101, yes?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Then if we go over the page, 32449, we have here

          17       shootings.  The shootings column represents, does it,

          18       offences where shots were fired and somebody was

          19       injured.

          20   A.  Yes.  These columns here are a subset of the ones on the

          21       previous page and this is just to show -- because often

          22       where a weapon is discharged it may not actually hit

          23       a person or, in many instances, it may not actually be

          24       aimed at a person.  Often weapons will be discharged to

          25       intimidate so they will be discharged at a vehicle or


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           1       discharged at a front door or something of that nature.

           2       This shows the number of times when a person was

           3       actually hit as a result of the shooting.  So the first

           4       column being where a person was hit and injured and the

           5       second column, the "Gun enabled murders" obviously when

           6       a person was hit and died as a result of the injuries

           7       that they sustained.

           8   Q.  Again, we see that going from -- let's take the murders

           9       column for a moment, 29 in 2010, 13 of them in 2011, six

          10       in 2012, and so far this year, seven?

          11   A.  Yes, so we have had an increase on last year.

          12   Q.  Then if we go over the page to your page 3 in the

          13       schedules --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- we see the capture of guns do we?

          16   A.  Yes.  These are guns that we have seized.  I emphasise

          17       the point these are those that were capable of lethal

          18       firing so the actual number that we seize is quite

          19       considerably greater than this but these are those

          20       weapons, again, as I say, that, combined with the right

          21       ammunition, had the potential to actually kill somebody

          22       and they are broken down into categories.

          23   Q.  So let's take 2010, for example.  First line at the top

          24       is "Handgun" and we see of the total of 580-odd, 322 are

          25       handguns and the other large component is shotguns.


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           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Within 2010 no machine guns and 18 machine pistols; is

           3       that right?

           4   A.  That's correct.

           5   Q.  That's a fairly well reflected pattern isn't it, across

           6       the years?

           7   A.  I think it is fairly reflected and I think the reason

           8       for that is -- for each one, handguns clearly are the

           9       most readily concealable weapon, so therefore if you are

          10       criminally in possession of that weapon then, having

          11       a handgun, it's the easiest weapon to conceal, hence

          12       it's -- the extent of handguns.

          13           As far as shotguns is concerned, clearly shotguns

          14       are the most readily available lawful weapon because --

          15       because -- and this is why gun crime and the

          16       accessibility of weapons is very different in our

          17       country to any country in Europe or the rest of the

          18       world, because we have such strict rules and laws about

          19       the possession of weapons and we have, comparatively

          20       speaking, so few weapons in legitimate circulation.  But

          21       the one group where there is clearly a large number in

          22       legitimate circulation is obviously shotguns because

          23       a lot of people have shotguns for perfectly legitimate

          24       purposes, but they will be stolen or people will access

          25       other shotguns and, as you will be aware, often saw off


                                            19
 

 

 


           1       the end of the shotguns, again to make them more

           2       concealable.

           3   Q.  If we jump a couple of pages to your chart 5, please.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  We can see police operations?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  If we take the top box, again you're using the years

           8       2010 down to 2013, down to August, and you split it into

           9       "Spontaneous ARV" and "Preplanned"; is that right?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  So we are here not talking about the officers going out

          12       with their guns and doing embassy patrol or anything

          13       like that, are we?

          14   A.  No, in this instance we are talking about -- the figures

          15       we have here are -- the spontaneous ARV deployments are

          16       those where, as I say, a call comes in from a member of

          17       the public to say that there's a person with a gun and

          18       the armed response vehicles -- it's deemed that we have

          19       to send an armed officer to contain and control that

          20       situation and they respond.  So those are the kind of

          21       every day -- but to use the example, the Woolwich

          22       example is a classic example of an ARV.

          23           What we then have in the "Preplanned" is the total

          24       number of preplanned operations for that year, which

          25       gives you all of those other operational deployments


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       which we have planned.  Now, that will not all be the

           2       kind of operation that we are talking about here.  That

           3       will involve other things.  So other preplanned

           4       operations, so all surveillance, all armed surveillance

           5       is a preplanned operation.

           6           We do hospital guard operation.  So if we have

           7       a prisoner with a firearm threat who's in hospital or

           8       someone who is in hospital who's been shot and we think

           9       that that person is at risk, we would have armed

          10       officers at a hospital.  We do armed operations to move

          11       high value prisoners or prisoners where there's a risk

          12       of escape around.  So there are a number of other

          13       deployments.

          14           But what -- if you then go to -- so if we take, for

          15       example, 2012, that gives you 1,182 as the number of

          16       preplanned operations.  If you go to the box below, what

          17       it then gives you is the figures for those operations

          18       that are more similar to this instance.

          19           So the MASTS operation on the right is the kind of

          20       operation that is the subject of this Inquest.  So out

          21       of that 1,182, there were 466 of that type of operation

          22       where we have Mobile Armed Support to Surveillance.

          23       Then the armed containment operations, of which there

          24       were 128, that is a contain and call out operation.  So

          25       if we have somebody that we want to arrest or we know


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       that there is a firearm, we know definitively that it is

           2       in a particular premises, then what we will do there is

           3       we will contain, ie surround, that premises and then we

           4       will call the person out because that's the safest way

           5       of dealing with that.  So those are the two types of

           6       preplanned that I think are most relevant for this

           7       particular incident.

           8   Q.  Thank you.  Is there anywhere a breakdown of these MASTS

           9       figures of how many of those actually ended in stops?

          10   A.  I don't have that breakdown here.  Clearly, they will

          11       not all end in a stop.  The operations will all be

          12       intelligence led and the intelligence will inevitably

          13       develop as the operation is going on, then obviously

          14       what is happening in front of the commander will develop

          15       as the operation is going on.  So I don't have the

          16       figure specifically of how much of those resulted in

          17       a stop.

          18   Q.  Again, just to dig down a little into this, take the

          19       four-day operation that was part of Operation Dibri that

          20       was due to run from 3 to 6 August 2011.  We know for

          21       example that the TST team was briefed on the 3rd, they

          22       were at Quicksilver, there was some intelligence that

          23       the surveillance team went out and nothing happened, the

          24       armed officers didn't leave the police station?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            22
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Would that feature in these statistics, that day?

           2   A.  Yes, it would feature in those statistics, yes.

           3   Q.  Then, again, you are being consistent in dealing with

           4       the same years here, 2010 through to August this year.

           5       Would the picture be significantly different if you went

           6       back ten years rather than three or four?

           7   A.  I think the picture would be largely consistent.

           8       I think it's fair to say that we probably do less armed

           9       deployments now than we have done previously, and

          10       I think that would be something around -- as we learn

          11       and we develop controls around authorisation and command

          12       and control of those operations, I think the number has

          13       reduced slightly.  In terms of the top box and the

          14       number of occasions on which police officers discharge

          15       their weapons, I don't think that will have changed very

          16       much at all.  It is tiny numbers as a proportion of the

          17       overall armed deployments.

          18   Q.  The reason I ask is that, if one were to look at the

          19       number of shots fired, it looks as if they are

          20       increasing quite rapidly; is that a misleading feature?

          21   A.  I think that is a misleading feature and I think if you

          22       perhaps go to the next column along which is the number

          23       of incidents -- because the number of shots obviously

          24       will be dependent upon the particular circumstance of

          25       that incident, but I think the box to the right is the


                                            23
 

 

 


           1       one that gives a fairly consistent picture of the number

           2       of deployments.

           3           But I don't, equally -- I don't think we could

           4       anticipate that this would be in a kind of standard

           5       pattern because it's going to depend on the nature of

           6       the operation, it's going to depend on the nature of

           7       what happens in that operation and what action is taken

           8       by the subjects of that operation.

           9   Q.  Let's look at these figures then.  If we're looking at

          10       2010, of the MASTS figures, there are 604?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  As you say, that will include days when in fact the

          13       officers may not leave the police station.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  452 in 2011, 466 in 2012.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  In those years, then, shots fired were 1, 4 and 5 --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- in a total of four incidents?

          20   A.  Four incidents, that's correct.

          21   Q.  In the course of those, the only person who tragically

          22       died was Mr Duggan; is that right?

          23   A.  That's correct.

          24   Q.  If we were to reach back a few years, do you know of any

          25       other person shot in a vehicle stop, fatally shot in


                                            24
 

 

 


           1       a vehicle shot, apart from Azelle Rodney?

           2   A.  No.  I think if you go back in the recent past you have

           3       two -- you have three -- two fatalities and then one

           4       fatality during the course of an operation to deal with

           5       armed robbers who were in the middle of their robbery,

           6       and you also have the fatality at Markham Square, which

           7       was a very different scenario altogether, which was

           8       a siege and then that takes you back, I think, almost as

           9       far as 2005.

          10   Q.  Finally, can we look at the last page of this, page 7.

          11       Generally it's "Firearms threat to police".  The box at

          12       the top gives you figures from years "09/10" through to

          13       presumably now.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Total shots fired is 39 in all of that.  What does that

          16       mean?  Is that people shooting at the police or people

          17       shooting guns in the vicinity of the police?

          18   A.  No.  To be very clear, it's not 39 shots fired because

          19       26 of that is the top box which is made up of someone

          20       threatening a police officer with a weapon.

          21   Q.  Sorry, yes?

          22   A.  So actually, the reality is that it is a very rare

          23       occurrence for somebody to shoot at a police officer.

          24       So you have, in fact, the 13 incidents that have taken

          25       place over those years, of which seven were air pistol


                                            25
 

 

 


           1       blank weapons, blank firing weapons, and only six were

           2       lethal barrelled weapons.

           3   Q.  Again, I got the wrong figure but bear with me on the

           4       question: does that mean shots fired in the vicinity of

           5       the police or shots fired at police or can you not tell

           6       from this statistic?

           7   A.  That means shots fired at police officers.

           8   Q.  Again, let's reach back to 2005, say.  Do you know of

           9       any officer being hit by a shot fired at him?

          10   A.  So going back, the only occasion that I can recall is --

          11       I think either 18 months or two years ago there was

          12       an officer hit in Croydon, who was a uniformed -- not

          13       an armed officer -- it was a uniformed officer who was

          14       hit in the arm.  There were obviously shots fired and

          15       very close at the officers at Woolwich.

          16           Then one of the previous occasions where I talked

          17       about a police fatal shooting for an armed robbery,

          18       which I think was 2005 down in Kent, but it was Met

          19       officers down in Kent, and that individual fired

          20       a shotgun at officers and then officers returned fire.

          21       But no officers were injured in that shooting either.

          22       So my only recollection is the one in Croydon but

          23       I couldn't be certain of that.

          24   Q.  Have you any knowledge of any officer being shot by

          25       a subject in a -- I keep calling it a hard stop, you


                                            26
 

 

 


           1       know what I mean.

           2   A.  No, I don't have any knowledge, no.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's very kind, thank you very much.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Underwood.

           5           Yes, Mr Mansfield, do you have questions?

           6                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           7   MR MANSFIELD:  Good morning, Officer.  I am Michael

           8       Mansfield.  I represent the family of Mark Duggan.

           9   A.  Good morning.

          10   Q.  Can I just take you up on the last aspect of this.

          11       I think your wording was: "It's very rare for a person

          12       to fire a shot at the police".  Obviously, I don't

          13       expect to test exactly the numbers, I accept that it's

          14       very rare.  Now, would firearms officers appreciate that

          15       it's very rare?

          16   A.  Yes, absolutely.  The firearms officers would appreciate

          17       it's rare for somebody to fire a weapon at them.

          18   Q.  Can I just broaden it out a little bit because you've

          19       been asked to reach back, and again I am not testing

          20       your memory, but I think if we can just put a bit of

          21       context on this, because you've indicated periods of

          22       time when things were worse, then they've improved; do

          23       you follow?  You were saying that, generally, up to 2008

          24       and 2009, and since then, there's been a change.

          25   A.  In what precisely?  You say "worse", what do you say is


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       worse?

           2   Q.  The use of firearms?

           3   A.  By -- criminal use of firearms?

           4   Q.  Yes.

           5   A.  Sorry, I beg your pardon, yes, that's correct.

           6   Q.  However, if we go back, what I want to do now is the use

           7       of firearms by police.  May I make it clear I'm

           8       accepting it's rare, so it's just so the jury have

           9       a different window of time.

          10           You just mentioned a couple of cases, a siege case

          11       and also Azelle Rodney.  I just want to take this

          12       window.  I'm looking -- it's not on the chart, which is

          13       page 5 of the jury's bundle -- but I just want to, as it

          14       were, put a different span of years.

          15           If we look at 2005, it's not on the chart, through

          16       to 2008.  2005, of course, is the Azelle Rodney case.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  But there were two cases in 2005, another one in 2006,

          19       three in 2007 and two in 2008.

          20   A.  Mm-hmm.

          21   Q.  Do you accept, roughly speaking, that's --

          22   A.  If those are the figures you've got, I don't have them

          23       in memory but, yes.

          24   Q.  I can give you the names of the cases, if necessary?

          25   A.  Yes, I'm familiar with some of them.


                                            28
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You are familiar with some of them.  I don't want to

           2       name all the people concerned but, in relation to those

           3       cases, not always but sometimes, there are reports in

           4       relation to them, aren't there?

           5   A.  There are.

           6   Q.  There are.  Recommendations are made, sometimes, in

           7       relation to these cases; you're aware of that?

           8   A.  I am aware of that.

           9   Q.  Sorry to put it all to you, it's because of an earlier

          10       witness.

          11           Now, the recommendations or observations that are

          12       sometimes made in these reports, whether they relate to

          13       double hatting -- I think you're aware of double

          14       hatting --

          15   A.  I am.

          16   Q.  -- or whether they are -- where an officer is playing

          17       two roles when he shouldn't be --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- or whether it's in relation to hard stops and the

          20       circumstances for hard stops, these are matters that are

          21       considered by you to be important.

          22   A.  Definitely they are.

          23   Q.  Are the recommendations, in relation to these earlier

          24       cases, passed on to the officers on the ground?

          25   A.  Well, they will be -- whether they would be explicitly


                                            29
 

 

 


           1       laid out in -- "This is recommendation 1, 2 or 3", what

           2       will occur is, at the end of any incident where we have

           3       shot somebody or there has been a fatal shooting, there

           4       will, as I say, be an IPCC investigation.

           5           The IPCC investigation will almost invariably make

           6       a number of recommendations out of that.  There will be

           7       an Inquest of some form or an Inquiry, as was the case

           8       in Azelle Rodney, and again the Coroner, in that

           9       instance, has the right to make recommendations as well.

          10           So all of those recommendations will be taken into

          11       the organisation and obviously at a senior level in the

          12       organisation considered, understood, challenged, if

          13       that's appropriate, and then the learning -- those

          14       recommendations then need to be enacted and the learning

          15       needs to be filtered down, and that would get filtered

          16       down through the way that we conduct our operations.  So

          17       we would change the way that we conduct operations,

          18       training, tactics may be changed, equipment may be

          19       reviewed.

          20           Would they go down as "Here are the six

          21       recommendations" to every officer?  That's probably

          22       unlikely and I would suggest is not really a necessary

          23       way.  What needs to happen is it needs to be absorbed

          24       into the learning and the practice and the way that we

          25       conduct our operations, which is the way that it works.


                                            30
 

 

 


           1           Mr Mansfield refers to what he described as "double

           2       hatting", and that was an example of where previously

           3       an officer could simultaneously be a senior investigator

           4       for an offence and could, at the same time, be the

           5       firearms commander for an operation.  As a result of

           6       learning from a particular case, that is no longer the

           7       case.  So I think that's a good example of how we would

           8       bring that in.

           9           But if your question is "Does every individual

          10       officer get given a list of the recommendations?" then

          11       the answer to that is no.

          12   Q.  No.  But their attention would be drawn to, if you like,

          13       the product?

          14   A.  It would.

          15   Q.  Another example of the double hatting -- then I will

          16       finish with that -- and that is this: that another

          17       obvious example you don't want, you don't want the

          18       Tactical Advisor to also be playing an operational role

          19       as a command officer, do you?

          20   A.  Mm.

          21   Q.  Do you agree?

          22   A.  I mean that is, again, an area that has been looked at

          23       and I think we need clearly to not be in a situation at

          24       any point where there is a conflict in an individual's

          25       mind as to which role he or she is playing.  That


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       clearly is not where we want to be in terms of command

           2       and control of operations.

           3   Q.  ACPO is very clear about it?

           4   A.  It is.

           5   Q.  I do not want to take time but what ACPO is saying, I'll

           6       draw it up so you can see -- this is an ACPO guideline.

           7       It's CD10912.  Can we have it quickly on screen.  These

           8       are the ones in 2010, of course, I appreciate they get

           9       updated.  The previous page has got a heading, "Tactical

          10       Advisor", but paragraph 5.25; do you see that paragraph?

          11   A.  I do.  I can now.

          12   Q.  "The role of a Tactical Advisor is to advise and not to

          13       make command decisions.  The responsibility for the

          14       validity and reliability of the advice lies with the

          15       advisor, but the responsibility for the use of that

          16       advice lies with the commander."

          17           That's a very clear theme that's been coming out of

          18       earlier cases, isn't it?

          19   A.  It is a theme, yes.

          20   Q.  Just in relation, if I step back a bit -- I am just

          21       dealing with what comes out of earlier cases.  I would

          22       like you to look at CD29795.  I just want to ask you

          23       whether the observations here are the kind of

          24       observations that get passed down to firearms officers,

          25       not as a recommendation but as a content.


                                            32
 

 

 


           1           Now, it's 25.7 and I just -- if you bear with me --

           2       want to read it.  It may be you have seen this before;

           3       have you seen it before?

           4   A.  Which case does it relate to?

           5   Q.  This is Azelle Rodney.

           6   A.  Okay.

           7   Q.  It's an IPCC recommendation, number 5, but leave that

           8       out, I do not need the precise -- but it's -- this was

           9       actually issued in December 2005, so it's the same year

          10       as the bracket I have just put to you; do you follow?

          11   A.  Mm-hmm.

          12   Q.  This is itself -- so you are not misled and I am not

          13       misleading anybody, this is part of a report that came

          14       out this year referring back to the IPCC do you follow

          15       the context?

          16   A.  I do.

          17   Q.  Right.  This paragraph:

          18           "This operation was carried out in line with current

          19       tactics approved and trained under the ACPO guidelines.

          20       A 'hard stop' is a high risk option which should only be

          21       instigated after the risks have been measured against

          22       the possible benefits or necessity.  There is a risk to

          23       members of the public, the suspects, and the officers

          24       concerned who may be at the location.  The speed and

          25       aggression of the stop, which can ensure its success


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       could also cause problems, in that the suspects have

           2       a very limited time to assess what is happening to them

           3       and, as would be hoped, surrender.  If their compliance

           4       and surrender is not virtually instantaneous the options

           5       available to the police officers are restricted and the

           6       risks to the suspects are considerable.  I [the author]

           7       believe that ACPO and the MPS should carry out regular

           8       reviews of tactics and methods used by firearms teams

           9       and re-evaluate them in light of advances in technology

          10       and experience."

          11           Have you seen that before, that recommendation?

          12   A.  Remind me, because I've lost the trail a little.  That's

          13       a recommendation originally from the IPCC --

          14   Q.  That's right.

          15   A.  -- that then found its way into the Azelle Rodney.

          16   Q.  Yes.

          17   A.  Well, yes, I have seen that because, I've seen the --

          18   Q.  I appreciate that individual firearms officers,

          19       particularly those in a command structure, but even more

          20       so the ones actually holding the weapons, may not get it

          21       in that form, but --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- do they get instruction along these lines?

          24   A.  Well, that -- it goes without saying that any deployment

          25       by firearms officers has a risk attached to it.  The


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       role that I think you will probably have already heard

           2       of, the Strategic Commander and then the Tactical

           3       Firearms Commander, is to agree and for the other to

           4       sign off the tactics that are going to be used.

           5           Everyone understands that there is a high risk

           6       attached to any interception that is taken when we have

           7       firearms and when we believe that the subject of that

           8       operation has firearms, and that is foremost in the

           9       mind, and all of the points there after it describes it

          10       as a hard stop is foremost in the mind of both the

          11       Strategic Firearms Commander in authorising and then

          12       very much in the Tactical Firearms Commander and the

          13       Operational Commander on the ground in terms of how they

          14       conduct that activity.

          15           As far as constantly reviewing, we constantly review

          16       our tactics and the use of those tactics, and that is

          17       precisely why the role of Tactical Advisor is there,

          18       because after every single operation, that operation

          19       will be reviewed and looked at and any learning that we

          20       have from that operation will be fed through a formal

          21       organisational learning process into our training and,

          22       if necessary, nationally as well.

          23           So I do think that is the situation.  But would

          24       that paragraph be read to an individual firearms

          25       officer?  I don't think so.  But I don't think it's


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       credible that any individual firearms officer who takes

           2       part in those kind of operations would not understand

           3       the risk and the factors in relation to that.

           4   Q.  I appreciate that.  I am really concentrating on the

           5       command level.  It might be a Tactical Firearms

           6       Commander or more particularly --

           7   A.  Strategic.

           8   Q.  -- an operational firearms officer.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Obviously, the central point which is being made in this

          11       observation is that it's a high risk tactic, a hard

          12       stop?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  From one point of view, it's preferable to find other

          15       means of dealing with this issue, isn't it?

          16   A.  It is.

          17   Q.  I'll come to the other means in one second.  The final

          18       point in relation to this: if you're doing a hard stop

          19       and you are aware of the possibility that the person

          20       that you're dealing with might, to put it in the

          21       vernacular, do a runner, what training is there for

          22       firearms officers, on the ground, to deal with somebody

          23       who does a runner?  In other words, we heard yesterday

          24       that all the officers seemed to be told "Well, we're the

          25       ones who would have to chase" but is there any strategy


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       at one level or tactics at another level to deal with

           2       that?

           3   A.  I am not sure that you would have a strategy to deal

           4       with that.  I think the point I would make is everybody

           5       within the command or the people who do these

           6       operations, understand that this is high risk.  The

           7       training that they undertake is continuous, with hours

           8       of refresher training and re-accreditation every year.

           9           As I say in my statement, I am not the expert person

          10       to go into the ins and outs of tactics and training.

          11       But the point would be that training is focused on dealing

          12       with all possible eventualities because, if you

          13       undertake that -- and this is the reason, I think, that

          14       these operations are quite so challenging and complex

          15       because, regardless of how good our intelligence is and

          16       regardless of how well-planned the operation is and how

          17       that operation is conducted, you can't predict

          18       everyone's actions and behaviour, and the officers

          19       necessarily are going to have to make a judgment call

          20       and use their initiative at the point where something

          21       happens, which would include someone being a runner.

          22           It is really important for me, I think, to get

          23       across the point that you cannot entirely control all

          24       the variables in these operations.  That's not possible.

          25       That's why we invest this responsibility in a very small


                                            37
 

 

 


           1       number of officers and they receive quite the degree of

           2       training and continuous training that they receive.

           3           But is there a specific tactic to deal with someone

           4       doing a runner?  I am not aware of that, but I am

           5       probably not the right person to ask in detail.

           6   Q.  I only ask you because in your statement you said you

           7       were a Strategic --

           8   A.  An SFC, yes, precisely.

           9   Q.  You were a Strategic --

          10           Plainly, I appreciate that there are huge variables

          11       to deal with here but the whole point about high level

          12       training is to limit and minimise the risks --

          13   A.  It is.

          14   Q.  -- and to anticipate the variables, as far as is humanly

          15       possible.

          16   A.  It is.

          17   Q.  One of the problems with a hard stop, if somebody thinks

          18       you're dealing with a runner, is that there may be

          19       a premature shooting because the person hasn't stopped

          20       soon enough?

          21   A.  Well, in any --

          22   Q.  First of all, do you appreciate the point?

          23   A.  I appreciate that there is almost no limit on the

          24       variables of what might happen in that scenario, and

          25       I go back to the point that that is the challenge.


                                            38
 

 

 


           1           You can control a number of the variables, we can

           2       make sure the operation is fully justified on what we

           3       know and understand through the intelligence or the

           4       evidence.  We can plan it effectively and command and

           5       control it effectively, but at the point where the

           6       police make contact with the subject of that operation,

           7       you cannot predict every possible eventuality or

           8       behaviour.

           9           So that is always going to be a challenge for the

          10       officers, but I would go back to what I have said

          11       earlier: when you look at the number of those types of

          12       operations that we routinely undertake, and then you

          13       look at the number of times where officers discharge

          14       their weapon, my assertion would be that those officers

          15       are exercising that judgment effectively.

          16   Q.  Yes, I appreciate that.  I am not suggesting for the

          17       majority of the time, but what we are trying to obviate

          18       is the risk right down to the minimal target (?); you

          19       appreciate that?

          20   A.  Yes.  I appreciate that entirely.  That is precisely

          21       what all the commanders in the chain of any operation,

          22       and the officers in that operation, are trying to do as

          23       well.  The priority, in all instances, is reducing the

          24       risk, mitigating the risk of that firearm that we

          25       believe is present, or the threat that is presented by


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       the individual who has that firearm, and minimising the

           2       risk to the public, to the subject and to the police

           3       officers that are taking part in that operation.

           4   Q.  I appreciate all of that, and I think the round up

           5       question here is: in order to accomplish all of that,

           6       you don't know of any training, or training tactic, that

           7       relates to specifically accommodating the possibility of

           8       a runner?

           9   A.  I, personally, don't but as I say and, as I make clear

          10       in my statement, I think there are those who design and

          11       deliver the training that could answer that question but

          12       I am not in a position to answer you.

          13   Q.  I am going to ask for your help.  You may not know who's

          14       coming or not coming: who would be the person who could

          15       help?

          16   A.  The Chief Firearms Instructor would be the person who

          17       can answer any question that the Inquest has in relation

          18       to the tactical options available to officers.

          19   Q.  Thank you very much.

          20           Now, I want to step back a moment because one of the

          21       precursors to the questions was if there's another way

          22       of doing it that's safer and that's better.  I think you

          23       said, yes.

          24   A.  I did.

          25   Q.  What I would like to do to, as it were, short circuit,


                                            40
 

 

 


           1       is, if you kindly look at a statement you made very

           2       recently -- I would ask for it to be put up on screen,

           3       please -- there are a couple of pages, and I'll give you

           4       the precise page numbers --

           5   A.  Is this my statement?

           6   Q.  Yes.

           7   A.  Okay, thank you.

           8   Q.  You've probably got it there.

           9   A.  I have got it here.

          10   Q.  We'll have it on screen.  In fact it's the fourth page.

          11       On screen it would be 32439.  So the jury know, they

          12       don't have this statement -- was it handed?  Oh, I'm so

          13       sorry.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  They may have this one.

          15   MR MANSFIELD:  They may have it because it's attached to the

          16       schedules, yes.  So it's fourth page, it can come up on

          17       screen as well.  The top paragraph: "Prominent within".

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Just a bit further down -- I have not set the whole

          20       context, but you are dealing with the range of armed

          21       policing.  The sentence:

          22           "Accordingly, within all the range of armed policing

          23       operations that I will describe below, it is a guiding

          24       principle that wherever there is an opportunity to

          25       recover an illegal firearm or ammunition, that


                                            41
 

 

 


           1       opportunity will be taken at the earliest point when it

           2       is safest to do so."

           3           Would you just bear that in mind?

           4   A.  I will.

           5   Q.  There's one more page, it's the sixth page, so that on

           6       the screen is 32441.  Again, it's the top paragraph,

           7       just before the first bullet point towards the bottom,

           8       you've got a sentence that begins "Additionally"; do you

           9       see that?

          10   A.  I do.

          11   Q.  "Additionally, in most operational circumstances, purely

          12       disruptive tactics are highly unlikely to result in the

          13       recovery of the illegal firearms, and as I have stated

          14       above ..."

          15           The bit I have just read out:

          16           "... removing the criminal access to these weapons

          17       is a core priority in tackling gun crime."

          18           You have put it in other words today.  It's really

          19       at the centre of firearms policy for London under your

          20       command, is it not?

          21   A.  Gun crime policy, I would -- because firearm policy is

          22       about how we -- but gun crime policy, yes, definitely,

          23       it is.

          24   Q.  Now, linked to that -- that's the core priority -- of

          25       course, as far as preplanned operations are concerned,


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       not spontaneous, which are calls from the public,

           2       preplanned, would you go back to page 6, please?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  That's 32441 on the screen.  At the top, you make this

           5       allied point:

           6           "Preplanned operations will be supported by a range

           7       of intelligence and covert policing assets with the

           8       primary aim of developing the most complete picture of

           9       the criminality and the threat in order to inform the

          10       planning and deployment of the operation."

          11           I stop there.  There are two points here: core

          12       principle, recover the firearms; and second, you inform

          13       the recovery by intelligence; is that a fair

          14       description?

          15   A.  That's a fair description.

          16   Q.  So, stepping back again: if you have very high grade

          17       intelligence -- I will define that, I think it's called

          18       B2 in the Met -- the highest grade you have we are told

          19       comes from the Serious Organised Crime Agency and we've

          20       had some in this case, and you appreciate that?

          21   A.  I do.  That would not be described as B2 but I think

          22       that's a technicality, that's not relevant.

          23   Q.  I thought it would be A1 but I accept they have

          24       a different -- anyway, high grade, whatever category it

          25       has.  So somebody who is an associate of subjects is


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       storing firearms with a friend or an associate of his;

           2       this would be of considerable interest, wouldn't it?

           3   A.  It would.

           4   Q.  I just want to take you through the stages.  First of

           5       all, if you've got high grade intelligence suggesting

           6       that, the second stage is, obviously, within Trident you

           7       actually -- because you've been in Trident?

           8   A.  I've commanded Trident, I have not been --

           9   Q.  You've commanded.  I'm assuming -- I hope it's a correct

          10       assumption -- you'll know the workings of Trident --

          11   A.  I do know the workings very well.

          12   Q.  -- and the intelligence working.  So you get some

          13       intelligence that's high grade, you don't just leave it

          14       in the air; you develop it, don't you?

          15   A.  In most cases you would, yes.

          16   Q.  Especially if it related to, core principle, the storing

          17       of firearms.

          18           So the second stage would be that you would

          19       obviously do a check, as far as you could, with what is

          20       already known about the person who is being promoted

          21       by -- I don't mean promoted in that sense --

          22       communicated to you from SOCA, as being the person who

          23       is in control of guns.  You would do a normal check on

          24       that person?

          25   A.  Well, you would -- in all its possibilities, develop


                                            44
 

 

 


           1       that intelligence.  That would include around the person

           2       but it would include other things as well.

           3   Q.  I want to go through the possibilities.  Sorry, for you

           4       it's obviously common sense, and I'm going to suggest

           5       it's common sense for everybody, that this is what you

           6       do.  You look at what you already know about that person

           7       in all the various ways that are available.  But then

           8       you move on, because you want current information about

           9       the person, because the stuff you may have is dated or

          10       could be dated; do you agree?

          11   A.  Possibly.  I mean --

          12   Q.  It's one of the possible --

          13   A.  There are lots of possibilities but that's one of them,

          14       yes.

          15   Q.  I just want the possibilities and I suggest to you they

          16       are fairly straightforward and I'm sorry I'm asking for

          17       answers because it has to go down.

          18   A.  Of course.

          19   Q.  Moving on from what is already on record, you, in

          20       Trident -- I do not mean you personally -- can make

          21       actual enquiries of agencies that could provide you with

          22       yet more current information.  That's pretty

          23       straightforward possibility, isn't it?

          24   A.  It is a possibility, yes.

          25   Q.  But it's a straightforward possibility, picking up the


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       phone and ringing the probation service is a pretty

           2       straightforward possibility, isn't it?

           3   A.  You could potentially do that, yes.

           4   Q.  Yes, thank you.  Then, on top of that, and I don't

           5       want -- need you to go through all the possibilities --

           6       another possibility is that once you have begun to

           7       whittle it down, you can set up armed surveillance on

           8       the person who you're getting information from, can't

           9       you?

          10   A.  Potentially, yes.

          11   Q.  Yes.  I have concentrated on a key element here, that is

          12       the storage of firearms; it is a priority, you've

          13       agreed.

          14   A.  I do agree, yes.

          15   Q.  Therefore, the devotion of resources to that priority is

          16       equally important, is it not?

          17   A.  Depending on the circumstances, yes, it would be, yes.

          18   Q.  Now, I just want to step back a stage further to deal

          19       with -- you deal with it in statement, the jury have it,

          20       but I am going to just deal with it quickly.

          21           You divided up, and you have mentioned it today,

          22       armed operations into the spontaneous and the

          23       preplanned.

          24   A.  Mm-hmm.

          25   Q.  I just want for the moment to deal with a grey area, do


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       you appreciate --

           2   A.  Okay.

           3   Q.  -- between the two?  On the one extreme somebody rings

           4       up and says "It's happening", you send essentially the

           5       uniform branch and the ARVs, their vehicles, to deal

           6       with it straightaway.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  On that model, you've actually got what I think you have

           9       called in here a control room; is that right?

          10   A.  They were the armed response officers would be

          11       controlled by a Tactical Firearms Commander who's in the

          12       central control room.

          13   Q.  The jury can find reference to it at the top of page 5,

          14       a control room.  I don't want to know where it is and

          15       I am not trying to pry into operational confidentiality,

          16       but it's obviously somewhere in London and it's manned

          17       24/7; is that right?

          18   A.  It's not confidential.  They sit with our normal control

          19       centre where people answer phones from members of the

          20       public.  So it's not covert in any sense.

          21   Q.  Well, where is it?

          22   A.  It's at Lambeth in the control centre.

          23   Q.  Lambeth, fine.  It's just so we get a picture of where

          24       things are.  But it's personally staffed 24/7 because

          25       things can happen any time of day or night.


                                            47
 

 

 


           1   A.  Mm-hmm.

           2   Q.  They are used to responding pretty quickly, so they

           3       could get somewhere in London within a short space of

           4       time, I'm not going to put minutes on it.

           5   A.  "They" being the armed response vehicles?

           6   Q.  Yes.

           7   A.  No, they would be on the road they don't sit at the

           8       control centre and wait for a call.  They are patrolling

           9       24/7 and will be deployed depending on which is the most

          10       obvious vehicle to deploy.  The commanders, in the first

          11       instance, so the people who would command and control

          12       an operation, sit within the overarching command and

          13       control centre.

          14   Q.  I was not meaning to imply in Lambeth you have a whole

          15       range of armed response vehicles who rush into the road

          16       ready to.

          17           You have them on patrol already, the vehicles, and

          18       you have a control centre.  Again, in terms of the

          19       control centre -- and there is a reason for asking all

          20       these questions, when I get to the preplanned and

          21       I think you will see what it is.  In the control centre,

          22       who is in charge of the control centre?

          23   A.  Well, there is an -- overall there will be a Chief

          24       Inspector at any given point, who is the kind of key

          25       person there but, as I say -- are we talking about from


                                            48
 

 

 


           1       a firearms perspective or generally?

           2   Q.  I'm dealing with it generally, in other words,

           3       a phone call comes in, somebody has to be in charge and

           4       have an overview of where the armed response vehicles

           5       are, who's the nearest to go -- do you understand --

           6       that --

           7   A.  I do understand that.

           8   Q.  -- sort of deployment; who is in charge of that?

           9   A.  You have, as I say, from SCO19, from the Specialist

          10       Firearms, you have Tactical Firearms Commanders, who are

          11       there and there is the Strategic Firearms Commander

          12       available.

          13           A call will come in from a member of the public, it

          14       will work its way through the normal system with a call

          15       handler, and when it's identified as part of that

          16       process, that there is an armed element, ie it's a man

          17       with a gun, and a decision is taken that therefore

          18       requires an armed police response to safely deal with

          19       that situation, then that would go across to the pod

          20       that sits within a very large control room environment

          21       that controls the armed officers, and they would deploy

          22       officers appropriately, and from that point would take

          23       over the tactical firearms control.

          24           There would also be a Tactical Advisor sitting in

          25       that room, and they would then be able to be in


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       communication with the officers that are actually

           2       deploying on the road to the incident, wherever the

           3       incident is.

           4   Q.  So you have described -- thank you very much -- a very

           5       organised centre.  Can I just deal with the pod for

           6       a moment.  So the people in the pod --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- whoever they are, will have a pretty good knowledge

           9       of where resources are in order to deal with the

          10       particular threat?

          11   A.  That's their job.

          12   Q.  That's their job.  Now, I want to switch across to

          13       preplanned; is there a control room for preplanned?

          14   A.  There is a control -- you can deploy preplanned in

          15       a number of ways, dependent on the circumstances of the

          16       operation.  So you can deploy a preplanned operation and

          17       have that all running from a control centre, and we

          18       could potentially use the control centre that I've

          19       described.

          20           We have a covert facility to use another control

          21       centre if you're running a more covert operation.  But

          22       equally, you do not have to run, and there's no absolute

          23       necessity to run, an operation in that way.  You can run

          24       an operation with the Tactical Firearms Commander being

          25       in a command vehicle that is part of the operation on


                                            50
 

 

 


           1       the ground, obviously removed a bit from the vehicle,

           2       the surveillance vehicles and the firearms vehicles, but

           3       you can run it from a command vehicle in a mobile

           4       fashion.

           5   Q.  Right.  So essentially it's -- the preplanned is

           6       a different animal --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- to the spontaneous.  I want to ask you whether this

           9       has been considered by those of you at high rank within

          10       the police, in terms of dealing with a situation in

          11       which -- I'm going to pose it, so you know exactly what

          12       I'm talking about.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  You have a preplanned operation, which is set to start

          15       and finish between certain hours, so outside those

          16       hours, within the 24-hour period of the day, it's not

          17       happening.

          18   A.  Mm-hmm.

          19   Q.  You're familiar with that?

          20   A.  I am.

          21   Q.  So therefore, if a piece of information comes in that

          22       may be relevant to the preplanned, but requires

          23       immediate action -- I think you may be following this --

          24   A.  Mm-hmm.

          25   Q.  -- in other words, somebody is going to pass a gun or


                                            51
 

 

 


           1       there's a shooting incident or there's a potential

           2       shooting incident, relevant to the preplanned but nobody

           3       is actually in place, who is in control of that

           4       situation?

           5   A.  The command team that are in control of that operation

           6       are in control of that situation.  The reality is that,

           7       for a number of preplanned operations, and I think this

           8       instance is an example, this does not all happen in one

           9       day.  The operation -- there will be all different

          10       aspects -- as I've explained earlier, there are all

          11       different aspects to an operation, and the kind of

          12       criminality that most preplanned operations are

          13       targeting will ebb and flow in terms of the level of

          14       activity by the subjects of that operation.

          15           So it's not often possible to have 24-hour a day

          16       coverage in place to be prepared to go on an operation

          17       like that, for obvious resourcing reasons.  Again,

          18       I make the point when you look at the number of

          19       preplanned operations that we are running, and you look

          20       at the number of officers that we have undertaking

          21       those, we clearly don't have people sitting 24/7

          22       operating.  We have to make decisions around tasking and

          23       decisions around resourcing, but those commanders that

          24       are those in charge of that job and familiar with that

          25       job would be the decision makers.  You would make


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       a decision on what this piece of information is at the

           2       time and then you have to adapt.

           3           I think we have just got to be very careful of not

           4       imagining -- and it kind of goes back to the last

           5       point -- imagining that all circumstances are

           6       controllable in all ways, because often the behaviour of

           7       the subjects will be -- will depend on a whole range of

           8       different things that we clearly can't predict.

           9           But what we have to be in a position to do is, when

          10       we get a new piece of information or intelligence that

          11       changes the scenario or potentially offers

          12       an opportunity for us to do what it is the operation is

          13       there to do, then you have to adapt and the commanders

          14       will make the decisions that they feel are necessary to

          15       allow us to do that.

          16           But that will be done within the parameters that

          17       have been set by the Strategic Commander and it will be

          18       undertaken by officers within the capability of their

          19       training and their experience.

          20   Q.  Yes.  The premise of the question is, in fact, because

          21       you are dealing with unpredictability, there are risks

          22       in having a preplanned operation between set hours; do

          23       you appreciate that point?

          24   A.  I do appreciate that point but there is also a reality,

          25       and the reality is that you have to put some parameters


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       around this.  We have to ensure that the staff that are

           2       taking part in these operations are getting suitable

           3       periods of rest and are -- and we are understanding what

           4       the intelligence and the investigation is saying.

           5       Because the other important point that I think we need

           6       to understand is that the deployment of firearms

           7       officers in an armed operation, and in this sort of

           8       circumstance, is one aspect of a much broader

           9       investigation that is going on.

          10           That's the point that I seek to make in the

          11       statement, that often, or more usually, the spontaneous

          12       incidents are a one-off incident.  Preplanned operations

          13       are often part of a very long broader investigative --

          14       investigation -- that will have many subjects that it's

          15       looking at.  So this is one aspect.

          16           So it isn't possible to be in a situation where you

          17       have every eventuality covered 24/7 in all ways.  Now,

          18       there will be times in the tempo of an operation where

          19       that might be necessary, and I can think of operations

          20       quite recently where that's been the case.  But that is

          21       not the case always.

          22           So the people who are running the investigation are

          23       assessing the intelligence as it comes in and then,

          24       through the Firearms Commanders, deciding on

          25       an appropriate response if any response at all.


                                            54
 

 

 


           1   Q.  If I may pick you up on that last point.  If the level

           2       of information -- sorry, intelligence coming in -- is

           3       high grade, you've got a limited period of time -- 3, 4,

           4       5, 6 August, as it happens -- I am not suggesting

           5       firearms officers have to be standing on street corners

           6       waiting to go and getting tired and not responding, I am

           7       not suggesting you necessarily have the same officers in

           8       control, but you would want, in the context, I suggest,

           9       of high grade intelligence, to have the sort of control

          10       base that you have for spontaneous brought in for that

          11       period; do I make myself clear?

          12   A.  You make yourself clear.  I don't necessarily accept the

          13       point.  There will be, at any given point, a number of

          14       operations that are undertaken.  There are occasions,

          15       and there have been occasions, where, because of the

          16       range and the type of activity, we would set up a static

          17       control room to run that operation.  You keep referring

          18       to high grade intelligence, and I accept that a lot of

          19       the intelligence that comes is, but that does not

          20       necessarily mean, in the context of the broader

          21       investigation, that you have to act immediately.

          22       Because again, what the Commanders are having to factor

          23       in is all the safety issues, all the risk issues.  So

          24       it's not a straight linear that: high grade information,

          25       everyone rushes out to act.


                                            55
 

 

 


           1           There will be assessment done of where that fits

           2       into the broader picture and assessment of what the

           3       appropriate way to respond to that is in -- through all

           4       the ways I have described in terms of command and

           5       control.

           6   Q.  Yes, but if it's high grade information at the core of

           7       the whole policy, namely the storage of firearms, then

           8       you don't, as it were, push it to one side, do you?

           9   A.  No, of course.  You would never ignore that

          10       intelligence.  But intelligence gives you information,

          11       it points you in a direction, it potentially gives you

          12       an opportunity.

          13           The point I guess I am trying to make is it's not as

          14       simple as saying high grade intelligence equals

          15       immediate activity.  There's a whole range of

          16       consideration and thinking and judgement that takes

          17       place.  Potentially out of the back comes an armed

          18       deployment, and then that would be commanded in the

          19       way --

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am going to interrupt you.  I'm

          21       very concerned of the fingers of those who are doing the

          22       stenography work down there because the quality of the

          23       answers is very good.  I do not want to slow you down

          24       but as you speak, in fact, you are not only just being

          25       recorded but it's actually also being written down.


                                            56
 

 

 


           1   A.  I apologise.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When we had a witness that was being

           3       interpreted, that was absolutely marvellous for these

           4       people who were able then to have a break but when you

           5       give the great lectures to the jury, I think that takes

           6       its toll.

           7           So what we are going to have to do is have

           8       a ten-minute break.  We will have to continue with your

           9       evidence after that.  Just hang on there a moment.  What

          10       I will then ask the jury then is then to leave us for

          11       ten minutes.

          15   (11.48 am)

          16                         (A short break)

          17   (12.04 pm)

          21                  (In the presence of the jury)

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          23       jury.  Right then, back to our witness -- you are still

          24       under the oath you took before, as you know -- and

          25       Mr Mansfield can press on with questions.

 

                                            57
 

 

 


           1   MR MANSFIELD:  There's only one more area, that's the day

           2       itself, 4 August, when this occurred, in 2011.  Were you

           3       on duty?

           4   A.  I was.

           5   Q.  Were you, in fact, in a particular position of the Gold

           6       Commander in relation to the aftermath of the

           7       shooting --

           8   A.  I was.

           9   Q.  -- stationed at New Scotland Yard?

          10   A.  Correct.

          11   Q.  Was your role to be a conduit, if you like, between what

          12       was happening at the scene and the Commissioner himself?

          13   A.  To a degree.  My role was to coordinate the immediate

          14       response to the shooting.

          15   Q.  I can give you the time -- it may not be the first time,

          16       it's coming from a document we've all seen, it's

          17       a loggist's note, CD663, if we need the reference.

          18       There's a reference to you being informed before about

          19       6.55, so somewhere between 6 and 7 you were told what

          20       had happened.

          21   A.  Mm-hmm.

          22   Q.  So the reference is there.  This is someone else's note.

          23       Your name is there.

          24   A.  Mm-hmm.

          25   Q.  So that's the rough time zone.  What was your own


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       response when you learnt -- perhaps I should put it in

           2       stages.  What did you learn first of all, what was it

           3       you were told?

           4   A.  First of all, the OCU Commander, the person in charge of

           5       Trident, who happened to be at Scotland Yard at the time

           6       as well, came into me, and I think that was probably

           7       around about 6.30, and informed me that, as part of that

           8       operational deployment that night, that officers had

           9       shot Mark Duggan.  At that stage, he wasn't aware

          10       whether that had been a fatal shooting.

          11           He then came back a short while after, and I don't

          12       know the exact time, and told me that that had in fact

          13       been a fatal shooting.  Then it was that point when we

          14       obviously -- the various post-incident processes were

          15       kicked in.

          16   Q.  Yes.  So you knew Mark Duggan was a black suspect --

          17   A.  I knew that, yes.

          18   Q.  -- because you had heard the name before.  Did you know

          19       about a police officer being shot as well?

          20   A.  Not at that stage I didn't know that, no.

          21   Q.  But you did later on that night?

          22   A.  I did become aware later on that one of the officers had

          23       been hit by one of the bullets, yes.

          24   Q.  Just dealing with the initial stages, were you concerned

          25       that -- particularly after Azelle Rodney, where it had


                                            59
 

 

 


           1       involved black suspects as well -- that a black suspect

           2       in Tottenham had been shot dead by the police; did that

           3       concern you?

           4   A.  I was extremely concerned that anybody had been shot by

           5       the police in one of our operations.  As I have said on

           6       a number of occasions, it is incredibly rare for us to

           7       discharge weapons.  You never want anybody to be harmed

           8       as part of our operations and that's -- the whole

           9       purpose, is to make them -- to minimise the risk as much

          10       as possible.  So of course I was concerned.

          11           I was concerned that I didn't know the circumstances

          12       at that point and I needed to understand those.  But, of

          13       the very few people that are -- that have been fatally

          14       shot, as Mr Mansfield points out, there is a higher

          15       proportion of black men in that, and I was concerned

          16       that that would have implications as well and, clearly,

          17       knowing Mark Duggan's affiliations and the fact that it

          18       was from Haringey, again, I was starting to think of the

          19       broader issues, potentially, that would arise as

          20       a result of that shooting.

          21           But I am concerned on any occasion that we discharge

          22       firearms in the course of an operation.  Thankfully that

          23       is rare, but of course I am concerned when that happens.

          24   Q.  Are you, or is it someone else, responsible in a sense

          25       for what is said to the public after something like


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       this?  Are you the one who ensures what is said is

           2       correct or does someone else have that job?

           3   A.  No, my role as Gold would be to clarify anything or to

           4       sign off anything that's said.  Obviously, that would be

           5       done by -- people within the press department would be

           6       working around that.

           7           Then you have the additional complication in

           8       a scenario such as this, as I explained to you earlier.

           9       Whenever we discharge a firearm, that very quickly

          10       becomes an independent investigation by the IPCC.  So

          11       you are in a situation where we have to be very cautious

          12       about what we say because we cannot say anything, and

          13       wouldn't wish to say anything, that could potentially

          14       prejudice that independent investigation.

          15           So we need to work very closely with the IPCC and

          16       their media people to understand.

          17   Q.  So one of the things that you are keen to do is

          18       obviously clarify the circumstances to ensure you,

          19       because you are not at the scene -- did you go to the

          20       scene at all --

          21   A.  I didn't go to the scene.

          22   Q.  -- because you are not at the scene, that you have got

          23       a grip on, as much as you can, the reality of the

          24       situation?

          25   A.  That obviously is something you are attempting to do.


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       I think anyone would understand how chaotic and confused

           2       that initial aftermath is, and trying to find

           3       information and understand what actually has happened is

           4       challenging.  But, of course, one the your objectives is

           5       to understand as soon as possible what has happened and

           6       start to get the very formalised processes that occur in

           7       place.

           8   Q.  I don't know what your tour of duty was that night but

           9       during the night and the next morning were you therefore

          10       very surprised by media reports that there was

          11       an exchange of fire between Mr Duggan and the police; do

          12       you remember that being reported?

          13   A.  I do remember that.

          14   Q.  Were you surprised by that?

          15   A.  I was surprised by that, yes.

          16   Q.  When did you first learn about that?

          17   A.  I can't recall precisely when I first learnt about that,

          18       and obviously I was not anticipating this being a line

          19       of questioning, so I have not refreshed my mind, sir.

          20       I cannot recall when I first learnt about that.

          21   Q.  I am not going to go through it but we have material

          22       before the jury which indicates that apparently a senior

          23       police officer at the scene was suggesting that.  Now,

          24       did that ever come through to you?

          25   A.  It came through to me at some point and, as I say,


                                            62
 

 

 


           1       I cannot recall at what point that came through, that

           2       that was being suggested.  My recollection is not that

           3       that was a police officer that had said that at the

           4       scene but I cannot answer the question in detail because

           5       I don't recall.

           6   Q.  I don't mean to take you by surprise.  Did you keep

           7       a record that night?

           8   A.  Of course I did, yes.

           9   Q.  You did.  Is it a log or something?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  It's a log.  I'm going to stop at this point and, with

          12       the Coroner's permission, ask whether you might be able

          13       to retrieve the log -- I do not want to bring you back

          14       unnecessarily but if it's acceptable that we could see

          15       what it is that you entered up that night as to what you

          16       were being told; do you follow that?

          17   A.  I follow that, yes.

          18   Q.  Is that possible?

          19   A.  Well -- of course, it would be possible, yes.

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  Can I leave it at that, I am not asking for

          21       the witness to come back, but if that could be done.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right, I'm sure we will be able

          23       to resolve that hopefully without the witness having to

          24       attend back here.

          25           Mr Thomas, you have some questions?


                                            63
 

 

 


           1                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           2   MR THOMAS:  Two short questions.  You understand what's

           3       meant by the expression "blue on blue"?

           4   A.  I do.

           5   Q.  Basically officers shooting, accidentally, each other,

           6       yes?

           7   A.  Yes, that would be a definition of "blue on blue".

           8   Q.  You have produced a table for the jury in relation to

           9       the number of firearms incidents going back a number of

          10       years, the jury have that in front of them.  Apart from

          11       this incident, how many blue on blue incidents were

          12       there?

          13   A.  I don't -- off the top of my head, I don't know the

          14       answer to that question.  I can't recall any sitting

          15       here, but whether -- I cannot say that that's

          16       definitively the case but, to my knowledge, there aren't

          17       any.

          18   Q.  So to your knowledge, when you received this information

          19       on 4 August, not only was there another tragic fatality

          20       in relation to Mark Duggan, but you must have been

          21       thinking to yourself, "Good grief, one of my officers

          22       was shot by the shooter"; you must have been thinking

          23       that, no?

          24   A.  I -- all I knew -- I didn't know that initially.  When

          25       I was then told that there was a suggestion that


                                            64
 

 

 


           1       an officer had been hit, it was fairly quickly explained

           2       that that officer wasn't injured.

           3           I didn't, at that point, make any assessment of what

           4       had happened because I didn't know what had happened and

           5       there were people at the scene whose role it is to very

           6       clearly find out what had happened.  Me sitting miles

           7       away in Scotland Yard speculating about what may or may

           8       not have occurred would not have been useful or

           9       beneficial.  So I wait to find out what people are

          10       telling me from the ground.

          11   Q.  I understand that.  Let me just ask you this on that

          12       point and then I'll move on to my second and final

          13       point.  Just on this: in relation to officers -- a blue

          14       on blue incident -- as you know, that's where an officer

          15       goes in to another officer's line of fire, arc of fire,

          16       yes?

          17   A.  Well, that would have to happen for it to --

          18   Q.  That would have to happen.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  May I suggest to you that inherent -- you remember

          21       Mr Mansfield was putting to you some of the risks of

          22       a hard stop -- this was an additional risk that is run

          23       on doing a hard stop, that officers can run into arcs of

          24       fire; would you agree?

          25   A.  I think it's fairly obvious to say that that is always


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       a possibility when you have more than one person there

           2       with a weapon.  Again, I refer back to what I said: for

           3       the tactical assessment of that, you really do need to

           4       refer to the Chief Firearms Instructor.

           5   Q.  I will do when he comes.  Just this though: were you

           6       aware that not only -- not only did the shooter hit

           7       a colleague, but were you aware that one of the -- the

           8       other bullet -- he discharged two rounds -- the other

           9       bullet ended up in the taxi; were you aware of that?

          10   A.  I am aware of that from what has come out subsequently,

          11       yes.

          12   Q.  Final point, final area.  You've mentioned the -- sorry,

          13       a step before that.

          14           You would agree that -- I think you said you were in

          15       command of Trident previously?

          16   A.  I had responsibility for Trident previously, yes.

          17   Q.  Whenever you have one of these firearms operations, the

          18       briefings are very important, aren't they?

          19   A.  They are fundamental to the operation.

          20   Q.  Fundamental to the operation.  It's also very important

          21       that there is no confusion, that the team, the

          22       firearms -- the men and women on the ground, it's really

          23       important that they know who's who, what individual

          24       roles are; would you agree?

          25   A.  The team will have a detailed briefing so they


                                            66
 

 

 


           1       understand how the operation is going to play out, yes,

           2       I would agree.

           3   Q.  But my specific question is: it's extremely important

           4       that the men and women on the ground who are going out

           5       know who is who and who's conducting what role; would

           6       you agree?

           7   A.  I would agree with that.

           8   Q.  Can I call up one document, please, it's CD0469.  It's

           9       the briefing that took place on 3 August.  It's a little

          10       way into the briefing, okay, so it's the briefing on

          11       3 August 2011.  It's the second main paragraph which

          12       starts "Good afternoon".

          13   A.  Mm-hmm.

          14   Q.  I just want to read you -- this is V59, okay -- this is

          15       what he says at that briefing:

          16           "Good afternoon I'm the V59 the Operational Firearms

          17       Commander and the Tactical Advisor to the TFC for this

          18       operation."

          19           Just pause there.  Do you remember -- it's pretty

          20       clear what he's saying to the troops, isn't it, would

          21       you agree?

          22   A.  Yes, I think that's clear.

          23   Q.  What is he saying, how do you understand what he's

          24       saying?

          25   A.  Well, I understand it as I read it there.  He's saying


                                            67
 

 

 


           1       that he was undertaking those roles.

           2   Q.  Yes.  Do you remember we were just talking about double

           3       hatting?

           4   MR KEITH:  I'm sorry to rise to my feet.  I think if this

           5       issue is going to be put to this witness -- and it seems

           6       to be, if I may say so, rather a long way from the areas

           7       about which he has already been asked questions -- then

           8       I think it's only fair that my learned friend puts to

           9       the witness that which V59 himself said about this.  It

          10       cannot be simply used as a Trojan horse by which to

          11       attack V59's evidence collaterally.

          12           V59 was asked about this and gave his account as to

          13       what it meant.  It is not really appropriate to ask

          14       a witness who had no dealings with this briefing at all

          15       what he understands by it.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Much earlier on in these

          17       proceedings, I reprimanded the learned counsel for

          18       putting one witness' account to another witness, I even

          19       cited authority in order to emphasise the point that

          20       that is not very usual practice.  So you are encouraging

          21       me to say that we should have this being done.

          22   MR KEITH:  No, no, I'm encouraging him to put the issue

          23       fairly and properly because if he's going to ask this

          24       witness what he understands by what another person said

          25       on another occasion, then he should put the full


                                            68
 

 

 


           1       context, because V59 has been asked about what he meant

           2       by that.

           3           If he doesn't put that, then it's a potentially

           4       misleading question because this witness won't be given

           5       the full facts and the circumstances and context in

           6       which this point was made.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I note what you say but at the

           8       moment the question has not become misleading at all.

           9       The question has been referred to that, Commander Hewitt

          10       has given its answer that it says what it says and

          11       I hadn't -- we'll press on for the moment.

          12   MR THOMAS:  I do not accept anything that my learned friend

          13       has said.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We are not going to have any

          15       arguments between you.  Mr Hewitt can look after himself

          16       very well, I'm sure.  So let's come back to the

          17       question.

          18   MR THOMAS:  Come back to the question.  I want to repeat the

          19       context.  I am not interested in what's in -- what V59

          20       may say subsequently or before.  I'm interested in how

          21       the troops, the men and women who are in the briefing,

          22       who hear this -- this does what it says on the tin,

          23       doesn't it?  You understand the expression?

          24   A.  They will, I take from that -- and clearly I was not at

          25       that briefing -- they will take from that that he was


                                            69
 

 

 


           1       the individual who had provided the tactical advice to

           2       the TFC and the TFC -- as the TFC had conceived the

           3       operational plan and that he was the Operational

           4       Firearms Commander on that evening.

           5   MR THOMAS:  That's all right ...

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's press on then.

           7           I think, Mr Stern, you're next?

           8   MR STERN:  No questions, thank you.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

          10                       Questions by MR BUTT

          11   MR BUTT:  Mr Hewitt, I ask questions on behalf of Z51 who

          12       was the Tactical Firearms Commander.

          13           You were asked if officers on the ground would be

          14       aware of the recommendations that are made in Inquests,

          15       Inquiries and IPCC reports; you recall that?

          16   A.  I do recall that.

          17   Q.  The way in which you make sure that officers on the

          18       ground know about relevant information from such reports

          19       is that, if there are important lessons learned from

          20       previous incidents, then you change the standard

          21       operating procedure, the ACPO Manual of Guidance and

          22       then the officers' training, yes?

          23   A.  Correct.

          24   Q.  You can only judge the actions of officers on the ground

          25       by the written guidance, by the SOP, as reflected in


                                            70
 

 

 


           1       their training, yes?

           2   A.  That's correct.

           3   Q.  You agreed you wouldn't want an operational firearms

           4       commander to also play the role of nominated Tactical

           5       Advisor when Mr Mansfield was asking you questions, yes?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  In an operation such as the one we're concerned with

           8       here, is the position that you would have a dedicated

           9       Tactical Advisor from CO19 who would be of inspecting

          10       rank, an Inspector, who would provide the tactical plan,

          11       yes?

          12   A.  That's correct.

          13   Q.  He completes a FA5, which is the tactical plan document,

          14       yes?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  That is sent to the Tactical Firearms Commander, yes,

          17       and that plan is then approved by the Tactical Commander

          18       and Strategic Commander, yes?

          19   A.  That's correct.

          20   Q.  The nominated Tactical Advisor is named on the FA2A and

          21       on the FA3, so the application and the firearms

          22       authority, yes?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Did you know that in this case Inspector Bennett was

          25       named on the FA2 and the FA3?


                                            71
 

 

 


           1   A.  I don't know those details in relation to this case.

           2   Q.  If the circumstances change before the plan is executed,

           3       then the Tactical Firearms Commander must then go and

           4       consult the nominated Tactical Advisor, yes?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  But within the confines of the tactical plan, the

           7       Tactical Firearms Commander can, and should, take

           8       further tactical advice from the Operational Firearms

           9       Commander, can't he?

          10   A.  He can do that.

          11   Q.  In fact, that is specifically stated in the FA5, isn't

          12       it?

          13   A.  It is.

          14   Q.  The police expect Operational Firearms Commanders, who

          15       are also trained Tactical Advisors, to provide tactical

          16       advice to the Tactical Firearms Commander, yes?

          17   A.  That's correct.  I mean, it goes to the point I made

          18       earlier about the fact these operations are dynamic and

          19       changing continually.  So you have the formal process in

          20       the first instance with the Tactical Advisor and the

          21       tactical plan, but then clearly the Commanders on the

          22       ground are going to need continuous advice as

          23       circumstances change.

          24   Q.  Would you agree with me that the precise language used

          25       in that briefing could not possibly have caused


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           1       an operational confusion to any of the CO19 officers?

           2   A.  My personal opinion is that that wouldn't have caused

           3       confusion.

           4   Q.  Because they would expect the Operational Firearms

           5       Commander to provide tactical advice to the Tactical

           6       Firearms Commander, wouldn't they?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  It was suggested that if you had intelligence that

           9       a person was storing firearms at an unknown location,

          10       then you could put armed surveillance on that person.

          11       Of course, you agreed that's a possibility; yes?

          12   A.  Yes, it is a possibility.

          13   Q.  In this case, Operation Dibri was looking into six named

          14       subjects who were to be subject to armed surveillance,

          15       subject to intelligence as and when necessary, yes?

          16   A.  That's correct to my understanding.

          17   Q.  Kevin Hutchinson-Foster was not one of those six, but in

          18       the days before and including 4 August there was

          19       increased intelligence that Kevin Hutchinson-Foster

          20       would directly or indirectly supply a firearm to Mark

          21       Duggan, who was one of the six; you knew that, didn't

          22       you --

          23   A.  I knew that.

          24   Q.  -- or you know that now?

          25   A.  I know that now but it's just clear that I wasn't part


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           1       of the day-to-day planning of that operation but I know

           2       what I know now.

           3   Q.  Looking at that intelligence picture in the days running

           4       up to and including the 4th, no police force would ever

           5       be able to put 24/7 armed surveillance on everyone in

           6       a position such as Kevin Hutchinson-Foster, would they?

           7   A.  No, and as I said before, these operations will often

           8       have multiple subjects within the operation and you are

           9       making assessments all the time dependent on the new

          10       intelligence that comes in.

          11   MR MANSFIELD:  Could the complete picture be put if we are

          12       going to get into detail.  I didn't --

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The answer is really, what one might

          14       say, it's all down to resources and you have to put your

          15       resources in the best place at the best time.

          16   A.  Correct.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you had more money you could do

          18       more things.  That's really what you are saying, isn't

          19       it?

          20   A.  You are constantly having so make resource decisions.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have to make a choice on where

          22       to spend the money?

          23   A.  And where operationally is the most effective use of the

          24       resources.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's just general.  But I think


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           1       his evidence is that, in relation to the specific

           2       operation that we are all looking at, that's not your

           3       decision, effectively.

           4   A.  No, it was not, no.

           5   MR MANSFIELD:  No, it's just that the total picture is

           6       bigger than the one that's been put.  It's to do with

           7       storing guns not just --

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I understand your emphasis.

           9   MR BUTT:  Because the whole point of Dibri was to target six

          10       nominated people who might take possession of firearms,

          11       it was thought, in the evening, wasn't it?

          12   A.  That is my understanding but, again, I say I was not

          13       part of the planning and the operation itself.

          14   Q.  You have generally pro-active operations like that

          15       because that enables the police to respond quickly

          16       during those times, yes?

          17   A.  That is why you operate in that way.  As I say, even

          18       though you will occasionally have very good intelligence

          19       it is often imprecise and you are having to make those

          20       decisions as you move through an operation.

          21   Q.  A quicker response is safer for the community and safer

          22       for the subjects, isn't it?

          23   A.  We would assess any intelligence and if there was

          24       an opportunity to take a firearm and that was --

          25       that was a safe option to undertake, then that clearly


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           1       is, as I have said before, the safest option, to remove

           2       that firearm from circulation within those who might use

           3       it.

           4   Q.  Of course the events of 4 August could have happened

           5       three weeks later when there was no pro-active

           6       operation, couldn't they?

           7   A.  Conceivably.

           8   Q.  In that circumstance, the police would have to find

           9       an on-duty Tactical Firearms Commander, assemble a CO19

          10       team and the response would have been much slower,

          11       wouldn't it?

          12   A.  Potentially.  I mean, it's a hypothetical but it's

          13       a potentially, yes.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We're dealing with possibilities and

          15       different things.  I do not think it's particularly

          16       helpful.  I think the larger picture is getting a bit

          17       too large now.

          18   MR BUTT:  It's an obvious point, it takes longer to assemble

          19       a team for a planned firearms operation if you have not

          20       already got a pro-active operation planned in about half

          21       an hour's time that evening.

          22   A.  That would be the logical conclusion, I think, yes.

          23   MR BUTT:  Thank you very much.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Butt.

          25           Mr Glasson?


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           1   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Any questions on behalf of SOCA?

           3       No.

           4           Mr Keith?

           5                      Questions by MR KEITH.

           6   MR KEITH:  Just a handful of areas, please, very shortly.

           7           We are concerned here, of course, with a Mobile

           8       Armed Support to Surveillance operation.  Does

           9       surveillance necessarily result in an interception or in

          10       some sort of operational act leading to a recovery of

          11       a firearm?

          12   A.  Not necessarily.  Often the surveillance will happen and

          13       there will be no outcome on that particular day and then

          14       you would make a decision as to whether you carry on

          15       with that operational activity.  Sometimes this can go

          16       over weeks and in some cases even months without any

          17       sort of interception.

          18   Q.  Is that the nature of the difference between

          19       a spontaneous operation where a member of the public

          20       says "I've seen a gun", where you have to respond

          21       because the gun has been seen and you know where it is,

          22       and a preplanned operation which depends on necessarily

          23       an intelligence picture?

          24   A.  That is correct.  As I say in the statement, the

          25       preplanned is defined by the fact we have intelligence


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           1       or information to suggest that there's -- either a crime

           2       is going to take place or someone is going to be in

           3       possession of a firearm.  So that is a very different

           4       operation.  But, as I say, they can take -- run over

           5       a significant period of time.

           6   Q.  In a preplanned operation where you're dependent, you

           7       have told us, on intelligence, is that intelligence

           8       picture necessarily complete or full?

           9   A.  We often have very good intelligence, but I would say

          10       that it is never entirely complete and sometimes there

          11       are large gaps in what we actually know, and that's

          12       where the judgment and the planning and the command of

          13       the operations comes in.  Of course that intelligence

          14       will develop as you go through and in no instance can

          15       you entirely predict the actions of any of the subjects,

          16       of which you are surveying.

          17   Q.  So it seems as if there are a number of variables, the

          18       intelligence picture, you have told Mr Mansfield the

          19       response of the subject, of course the interaction of

          20       the public, where the operation is to take place and

          21       what develops from it?

          22   A.  There are, and that's precisely why I describe these as,

          23       I think, the most complex and challenging operations

          24       that we undertake.

          25   Q.  It seems an obvious question, please forgive me for


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           1       asking it, but why are those heavy risks nevertheless

           2       undertaken?

           3   A.  The reason those risks are undertaken -- I would love to

           4       be in a position where there was a no risk option for us

           5       to deal with those people that are determined to use

           6       firearms, or those people that might be in possession of

           7       firearms.  But the reality is that that is not possible

           8       and we are constantly weighing the risk between the

           9       threat that's posed by that firearm, or the individual

          10       that has it, with the inevitable risk that comes from

          11       taking that sort of operation.  Because the reality is

          12       that, in order to seize firearms, to seize evidence, to

          13       arrest individuals for armed criminality, we have to

          14       come into contact with those individuals.

          15           It's not simply that we can disrupt or we can let

          16       people know that we are looking at them.  These are

          17       people who will carry on that criminality.  It will

          18       happen at a later point in time.  So we are constantly

          19       weighing those two competing risks.

          20   Q.  At page 6 of your statement, and you were referred to

          21       this earlier, you say:

          22           "Criminals that are embarked on a determined course

          23       of action are not often susceptible to purely disruptive

          24       tactics.  Whilst there is an obvious attraction to

          25       police action that brings with it the lowest risk of an


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           1       armed confrontation, such action will rarely reduce or

           2       remove the ongoing threat.  It may simply delay it and,

           3       by exposing the level of police knowledge, cause

           4       criminals to take additional measures to avoid

           5       detection."

           6           If the police do not proactively step into the world

           7       of the armed criminal in order to disrupt, what impact

           8       might that have on the risk to the public in the future?

           9   A.  Well I think the impact it would have is that the

          10       figures that you have that show armed crime going

          11       down -- or gun crime going down -- would not be the

          12       case.

          13           We are left in a position -- there are a,

          14       thankfully, small number of people who are prepared to

          15       use guns in the commission of various types of crime and

          16       we have to engage with that on -- that's our duty to the

          17       public, to prevent that risk.

          18           Because whilst I did say at the beginning that in

          19       most cases those people that are shot are somewhere

          20       within that criminal world, there are notable occasions

          21       where it is not those people and it is people that are

          22       entirely nothing to do with that scenario.

          23           So we have a duty and a responsibility to engage

          24       with those people who are prepared to carry and use

          25       illegal firearms as part of their crime.


                                            80
 

 

 


           1   Q.  On the fifth schedule you produced, you distinguish

           2       between armed containment and a MASTS operation.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Can I just ask you, please, about containment because

           5       it's been suggested to you that perhaps there were other

           6       alternative methods that could have been engaged.

           7           What is meant by containment?  In what circumstances

           8       can the police properly have a containment operation?

           9       What do you need to know before you can contain

          10       a situation?

          11   A.  We need -- containment, as I said earlier, is where we

          12       would -- where we have very strong intelligence that

          13       either the person that we are trying to arrest --

          14       because often a containment and call out would be for

          15       a person that we need to arrest but there is a firearms

          16       threat from that person, or we know definitively that

          17       a weapon or weapons is in a premises.

          18           So we need to understand -- we need to have -- that

          19       intelligence needs to be very, very strong to allow us

          20       that level of certainty.

          21           We also need to understand what level of control we

          22       have over other members of that criminal group.  Because

          23       clearly our action will be very overt when we do

          24       a containment and call out and that will alert other

          25       members of that group to what we have and haven't done.


                                            81
 

 

 


           1           So we need to think of the broader context of what

           2       that action is going to actually mean in terms of the

           3       criminality of that group.

           4           And we need to have, as I say, that intelligence as

           5       firm as we can.  We also, in all of this, and I have

           6       made the point very clearly and that point has been

           7       emphasised, that the seizure of the weapons and the

           8       recovery of the weapons is a very fundamental element of

           9       our strategy.

          10           But, equally, also is being able to convict and

          11       imprison those people that are those who use guns for

          12       their criminality.

          13           So, again, we would have to factor in whether that

          14       scenario is going to give us sufficient evidence to

          15       actually prosecute people.

          16           So you are weighing all of those factors together.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Hewitt, whilst we are on that

          18       schedule 5 we have here -- I am not asking for this to

          19       be put up on the screen -- the schedule you can do but

          20       not what I am about to refer to.

          21           I wonder if I can hand to you -- you have that

          22       schedule -- we've been referring to this Azelle Rodney

          23       inquiry, of course.  Let me hand you an actual hard copy

          24       and I have flagged it up at page 20.

          25           Just have a look at that yourself.  (Handed)


                                            82
 

 

 


           1   A.  Page 20?

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There's a table there too, similar

           3       to the table you have about the number of shootings, and

           4       we see, for example, in 2010; do you see that table

           5       there?

           6   A.  I do.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am not asking you to read this out

           8       but does it say -- an entry for 2011.

           9   A.  Yes.  It does have an entry for 2011.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It says there's the one incident,

          11       which concerns Mark Duggan.

          12   A.  Yes, that's correct.  Or the one -- yes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But it does say the number of shots

          14       fired there.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that accurate?

          17   A.  Not to my knowledge, that's not accurate.  My knowledge

          18       was two rather than three.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That has come from -- if you go back

          20       a page, that comes from I think Detective Superintendent

          21       Welton.

          22   A.  Yes, it does.  But that is inaccurate to my knowledge of

          23       this.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There is no other incident we are

          25       talking about?


                                            83
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, not at all.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just the one with Mark Duggan.

           3   A.  No, most definitely, yes.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let me have that back.  I am sure we

           5       can clarify; that must be a mistake in the reference.

           6   A.  I think that is an error.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It is obviously something which

           8       someone might get hold of, so better we deal with it and

           9       clarify it in due course.

          10           Thank you very much.  Sorry, back to you.

          11   MR KEITH:  Just concluding with the issue of risk and the

          12       difficulties posed by these operations.  In a

          13       spontaneous situation, you have described how a member

          14       of the public might phone in saying, "I've seen

          15       a gun" --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- where you know the gun is being openly displayed.  Do

          18       those persons whom you pursue, and who the police

          19       pursue, in relation to gun related crime openly display

          20       firearms or are there measures deployed by them to make

          21       it more difficult for the guns to be recovered?  Are

          22       there covert methods used by them that impacts upon the

          23       risks that you run?

          24   A.  I think it's fair to say that in every instance, other

          25       than the point where an individual is actually using


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           1       that firearm, they will be making every effort to

           2       conceal those firearms from our efforts to recover them.

           3           So that will involve, obviously, concealment when

           4       they are in possession of the weapons or the ammunition

           5       by various means and, when they are not in possession,

           6       they will use all sorts of methods and locations to hide

           7       and conceal weapons.  Because they are clearly aware

           8       that one of our primary tactics is to identify them and

           9       to take them off the streets.

          10   Q.  That is therefore yet another issue, or a risk factor,

          11       that has to be borne in mind?

          12   A.  It is.

          13   Q.  Is flexibility an important part of responding to these

          14       risks?

          15   A.  Flexibility, as I have, I think, said on a number of

          16       occasions is fundamental.  At the risk of repeating

          17       myself, there is no possibility of closing down all the

          18       potential outcomes, the potential actions and all of the

          19       ways that an operation could go.

          20           So, both in terms of the investigation and then when

          21       we actually go into a firearms deployment, all the

          22       commanders and the investigators have to continually be

          23       reassessing and dynamically risk assessing the situation

          24       and what they understand at that point in time to make

          25       the decision around what is the best course of action


                                            85
 

 

 


           1       for them to take.

           2           So flexibility and being able to adapt -- and that

           3       is the purpose of the training and why we have such

           4       a small group of people who act as Commanders,

           5       Tactical Advisors and Firearms Officers, is so that they

           6       can have the level of training, and the continual level

           7       of refresher training, to allow them to be in a position

           8       to make those split second decisions, which you have to

           9       make when situations unfold in front of you.

          10   Q.  On that issue, Mr Underwood asked you about the number

          11       of TST officers and you said 25?

          12   A.  That's correct.

          13   Q.  We see in fact at page 10 of your statement that there

          14       are, relatively speaking, only a small number of

          15       officers who are trained with Armed Response Vehicles?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  And, similarly, a relatively small number of officers

          18       trained as Specialist Firearms Officers?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Are the TST officers -- and we are of course concerned

          21       in this case with TST officers -- all drawn from those

          22       who are already trained as ARV officers but who have

          23       then received further training?

          24   A.  They are.

          25   Q.  You have described in your statement the


                                            86
 

 

 


           1       responsibilities of those trained in armed response

           2       vehicles.  Do they then receive extensive further

           3       training before they can carry out TST duties?

           4   A.  They would already be qualified, trained Armed Response

           5       Vehicle Officers and they would be experienced Armed

           6       Response Vehicle Officers.  If they then move up to

           7       being a Tactical Support Team Officer, they receive

           8       a seven-week training course to provide them with the

           9       additional skills and tactics that TST use over and

          10       above what they would already have.

          11   Q.  Lastly, you've been asked questions about the procedures

          12       that would be engaged following a fatal shooting and you

          13       referred to the IPCC.

          14           Are there a number of formal procedures which have

          15       to be undertaken following a fatal shooting, such as the

          16       post-incident procedure, the management of the scene,

          17       forensics, dealing with the public and so on?

          18   A.  There are.

          19   Q.  To what extent can decisions be taken by the

          20       Metropolitan Police without the authority of the IPCC,

          21       which carries out the independent investigation

          22       following a fatal shooting, after the incident has

          23       occurred?

          24   A.  There is a time window post-incident where it would be

          25       the responsibility of the Metropolitan Police, or any


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           1       other police force, to manage the scene and to start to

           2       manage all of the issues that Mr Keith refers to.

           3           At the point where the IPCC accept this as

           4       an independent investigation, then they effectively take

           5       control of the scene and control of that investigation.

           6       So from that point onwards, we would have had, at the

           7       very outset -- in the very beginning, the firearms team

           8       on the ground would take control of the scene because

           9       they are obviously the officers there and the command

          10       structure there would do that.

          11           We would then very quickly have our Directorate of

          12       Professional Standards take over and they would be the

          13       ones who would then transition that into the Independent

          14       Police Complaints Commission.

          15           Once the IPCC have taken control of that

          16       investigation then we are effectively subordinate to

          17       them in the process that goes forward from that point

          18       because that's what ensures the independent scrutiny of

          19       the incident.

          20   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.  I have no further

          21       questions.

          22               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I ask about the independent

          24       scrutiny.  Let me know if this is not in your area but

          25       you are the one person we know who qualifies as a member


                                            88
 

 

 


           1       of ACPO and we have been looking at some ACPO guidelines

           2       and it's to do with the post-incident procedures.  All

           3       right?

           4   A.  Mm-hmm.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It may be that you can help the jury

           6       a little bit about this but it may be Mr Keith may not

           7       think so, but we'll see how we go.

           8           We've been looking at police officers involved in

           9       the incident, immediately after the incident getting

          10       together making notes.  Then the ACPO guidelines saying

          11       they should make an initial account, then they should

          12       have at least 48 hours.  In fact in this case, it's

          13       later on on 7 August that they make a full detailed

          14       statement.  You're aware of those provisions?

          15   A.  I am.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The ACPO guidelines seem to put in

          17       it, and I think we have the reason actually, it's in the

          18       guidelines I think at paragraph 7/97, which we could put

          19       up on the screen at CD010959:

          20           "A person involved in a traumatic or life

          21       threatening encounter will often experience a range of

          22       physiological responses that may determine the

          23       perception of time, distance ..." et cetera.

          24           So a police officer involved in an incident is able,

          25       firstly, to talk to his colleagues, to make an initial


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           1       account with his details, then have two or three days

           2       off to let things settle in his mind and then make his

           3       witness statement.

           4           It just seemed to me, if we were talking about

           5       a scenario whereby, from the account that we heard

           6       yesterday, that V59, rather than shooting Mr Duggan, he

           7       thought he was going to be shot by Mr Duggan.

           8   A.  V53.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  V53, absolutely right.  Let's have

          10       Mr Duggan coming out of the taxi cab with one or two

          11       mates, so we've got more than one person and we will

          12       turn it round the other way, so we've got Mr Duggan

          13       shooting the police officer.  Mr Duggan would have been

          14       immediately arrested?

          15   A.  Presumably.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He would have been taken off to

          17       a police station and questioned?

          18   A.  (Nods)

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He would have been told his caution,

          20       that if he didn't answer when questioned something which

          21       he later relied on court it would be held against him

          22       and the jury could make an adverse inference.  That all

          23       would be expected to be done within hours of the

          24       incident.  Mr Duggan would not be allowed to speak to

          25       anyone else at the scene, he would separated, probably


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           1       through until trial.

           2           Putting those on that side and the police on the

           3       other side, I just want you to help me as to whether

           4       there might appear a perception of a double standard

           5       here and help us about that.

           6   A.  Well, I am not sure --

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you feel you cannot help us, it

           8       may be others will address me.

           9   A.  I don't particularly feel that my opinion around that

          10       would be helpful, to be honest.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Probably we'll leave it up in the

          12       air then for others to think about.

          13   MR KEITH:  Could I jump into the frame because it does seem

          14       to me, with respect, that the question is based on

          15       a premise that there's an equivalence between a man in

          16       relation to whom there are reasonable grounds for

          17       suspecting he has committed a criminal offence and

          18       therefore the subject of those procedures --

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think in my story, it's just

          20       a question of honest and reasonable belief on both

          21       sides, isn't it?

          22   MR KEITH:  No, sir, because if Mr Duggan had a gun and was

          23       arrested there would be reasonable grounds to suspect

          24       him in the commission of a criminal offence, hence the

          25       legal entitlements.  A police officer in a fatal


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           1       shooting incident is not necessarily suspected of the

           2       commission of an offence, so there are different

           3       procedures engaged.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I hear what you say but there we

           5       are.  It's just a matter which the ACPO guidelines --

           6       they maintain in this form, do they?

           7   A.  They do maintain in that form.

           8                  Further questions by MR KEITH

           9   MR KEITH:  Could I ask one further question in relation to

          10       those guidelines.  I am not sure we have seen the full

          11       gamut which are promulgated, I think, annually but

          12       there's something like 140 pages of ACPO guidance in

          13       relation to the discharge of firearms and the

          14       post-incident procedures and they are replicated to

          15       a very large extent and guided by ACPO in Metropolitan

          16       Police Service Standard Operating Procedures, equally

          17       an extremely long document?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Those documents are no doubt under constant

          20       discussion --

          21   A.  They are.

          22   Q.  -- and reflect both training and practice?

          23   A.  Correct.

          24   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Mr Keith.


                                            92
 

 

 


           1           Yes, Mr Underwood, any further questioning?

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you very much.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much then for coming

           4       forward and assisting the jury.  I'm sorry we were

           5       a little longer than perhaps you might have expected.

           6       That's been very helpful.  You are free now to go.

           7           Members of the jury, I think the next witness will

           8       be ready at probably 2 o'clock now, I think, is the

           9       answer.

          10           So you have told the jury a little bit about the

          11       process of her giving evidence?

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.  So she's in another building and will

          13       be giving her evidence via video link.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think for those in the upstairs

          15       court they will not have any visual communications with

          16       this court.

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Regrettably, that's right.  We cannot feed

          18       video into this building and then split it up,

          19       unfortunately.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the position for them.

          21       I just say that for the notice upstairs.  Thank you for

          22       your attention this morning members of the jury, if you

          23       would like to leave us and be ready for 2 o'clock,

          24       please.  I will ask for the cameras to be turned off,

          25       please.


                                            93
 

 


           1   (12.55 pm)

           2                     (The short adjournment)

           3   (2.00 pm)

           8                  (In the presence of the jury)

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          10       jury.  As you have been told we can have the cameras on

          11       in this court, that we are here, and we have a witness

          12       in another location and that witness we are going to be

          13       calling "Miss J".

          14           I'll give the camera over now to Mr Underwood who

          15       will introduce himself and then we will find out whether

          16       there is to be an affirmation or an oath.

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon.  My name is Underwood and I'm

          18       counsel to the Inquest.  Before we go any further, we

          19       need to either give you the oath or you take

          20       an affirmation; which would you like?

          21                          MISS J (sworn)

          22                   (The witness was anonymised)

          23                 (Evidence given via video link)

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you would

          25       like to then have a seat, please.

 


                                            98
 

 

 


           1   A.  Thank you.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Over to you, Mr Underwood.

           3                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  We are calling you Miss J for the purposes of

           5       this Inquest; do you understand?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Have you written your name down on a piece of paper or

           8       has a piece of paper with your name on it been shown to

           9       you?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  That can come to the Coroner in due course.

          12           I want to ask you about events on 4 August 2011; all

          13       right?

          14   A.  Okay.

          15   Q.  Were you living then in the Jarrow Road area?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Did you hear some noise?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  What happened?

          20   A.  (Pause)

          21           Do I have to start from the beginning, yes?

          22   Q.  Please.

          23   A.  I went next door, right, to give my neighbours some

          24       tomatoes and, as I knocked on the door, I heard some

          25       bang and when I heard the noise I ran out to the green.


                                            99
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Is that the green between Jarrow Road and Ferry Lane?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Right.

           4   A.  And --

           5   Q.  Can I just show you, before we go any further, a drawing

           6       you made.  It's our CE178.

           7           Is that a drawing you made when interviewed by the

           8       Independent Police Complaints Commission?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  There are some markings on there.  The jury can see them

          11       later on.  I just want to identify at the moment whether

          12       there are any points on there that represent where you

          13       were when you went onto the green, were there?

          14   A.  (Pause)

          15           Do you know what, I can't -- I can't remember.

          16   Q.  Don't worry.

          17   A.  I think -- (Pause)

          18           Do you know what, I will be honest with you,

          19       I can't -- I remembered doing the drawing but I can't

          20       remember what E, F, A, C, D -- I don't remember --

          21   Q.  Don't worry about it.  Let's deal with what you can

          22       remember, all right.  You went onto the green.  Did you

          23       go very far onto the green?

          24   A.  Yes, I did.  I went about halfway.

          25   Q.  Okay.


                                           100
 

 

 


           1   A.  It wasn't the -- do you know where the railings are?

           2   Q.  The railings by Ferry Lane or the railings by the path

           3       going up?

           4   A.  The railings by the path going up.  I remember running

           5       up there and an officer told me to go back and I did go

           6       back and then another commotion took place -- this is

           7       when they took the body -- they were doing CPR on

           8       Mr Duggan, and because all the officers' back was

           9       towards me, that gave me time to run-up again to see

          10       whatever I saw.

          11   Q.  Right.  So you went up the green by the railings for the

          12       footpath on the first occasion, yes?  Then were sent

          13       back by a policeman?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  When you were sent back by the policeman, how far back

          16       did you go?

          17   A.  To be honest with you, I think I went back to the wall.

          18       I went back to the pathway.

          19   Q.  That's on Jarrow Road, is it?

          20   A.  I crossed over the -- yes, I crossed over the road and

          21       I was standing there watching --

          22   Q.  Okay.

          23   A.  -- and then --

          24   Q.  Sorry, go on.

          25   A.  And then, when the commotion happened -- when they was


                                           101
 

 

 


           1       doing CPR on Mr Duggan, yeah, because all the officers'

           2       backs was towards me, all I could see was the officers'

           3       backs.  So that's when I ran back over to the green,

           4       where the hand rail is -- the rail is.

           5   Q.  Right.  Can I show you some pictures that come from

           6       a video taken from a bus?  There are three photographs.

           7       They are stills taken from -- this is for the purpose of

           8       the record really -- from KEL/10.  Can we start with --

           9       if you can see it there -- it's coming up.  There we

          10       are.

          11           We know this is taken at 6.16.06.  Now, can you see

          12       a woman or a person on the right-hand side by the path?

          13   A.  That's me.

          14   Q.  Right.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Who is she identifying as her?

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  We can see some railings on the right-hand

          17       side, just after the railings, yes?

          18   A.  Yeah, yeah.

          19   Q.  On the right-hand side of you there is the green; is

          20       that right?

          21   A.  That's correct.

          22   Q.  You have just described to us that, first of all, you

          23       went up the green and were sent back by a police officer

          24       and then, later on, when CPR was going on, you went back

          25       up to the green again.  In the course of that journey,


                                           102
 

 

 


           1       what are we looking at here, where we see you on the

           2       kerbside?  Are you moving one way or the other or are

           3       you standing still there; can you recall?

           4   A.  Do you know what, when I got sent back, I could have

           5       been crossing the road -- that's probably when I got

           6       sent back, I could have been running -- I could have

           7       been going over.

           8           What happened, right, when I got sent back,

           9       I crossed the road backways, because I wanted to see

          10       what was going on.  I walked across the road backways,

          11       where normally I wouldn't do that, I would have my face

          12       towards the road --

          13   Q.  Thank you.

          14   A.  -- if you understand.

          15   Q.  Fair enough.  Now, I want to move on to what it is you

          16       saw, all right?

          17           First of all, when you went up onto the green, what

          18       could you see going on?

          19   A.  I could see the police -- there was a commotion where

          20       the police was dragging out Mr Duggan.

          21   Q.  When you say dragging out --

          22   A.  Pulling him out then, rather.

          23   Q.  Pulling Mr Duggan from what to where?

          24   A.  They was pulling him out of the car to where they

          25       eventually ended up doing CPR on him.


                                           103
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Let's start a little bit before that.  What was the car?

           2       Can you remember what colour it was?

           3   A.  It was a silver/grey car; it was a big car.

           4   Q.  Okay.  Did you see them pull him out of the car or did

           5       you just see him being dragged on the pavement or what?

           6   A.  I saw them pulling -- taking him out of the car then.

           7   Q.  Could you see which part of the car they were taking him

           8       from; was it the front seat or back seat or what?

           9   A.  It was from the back, on the left-hand side.

          10   Q.  The side nearest you?

          11   A.  Yeah.

          12   Q.  Right.  Then he went onto the floor, did he, after that,

          13       with them?

          14   A.  Yeah, I could see them doing CPR (indicates) on him.

          15   Q.  Now, was this the first time you were on the green or

          16       the second time you were on the green?

          17   A.  I believe it might have been the second time.  It's the

          18       second time that I was on the green.

          19   Q.  Did you see anybody with a gun?

          20   A.  I saw a police officer come out with the gun -- he had

          21       it on the black piece of cloth, and he had it in the

          22       palm of his hand, and it was like he was showing

          23       somebody or -- I don't know, he had it in the palm of

          24       his hand.

          25   Q.  Let's take that --


                                           104
 

 

 


           1   A.  Because I was kind of --

           2   Q.  Sorry?

           3   A.  Pardon?  I was kind of taken --

           4   Q.  Let's take that in stages.  Where were you when you saw

           5       that; were you on the green or were you on the wall?

           6   A.  I was on the green -- what happened -- you know in the

           7       last case, right, there was a hiccup about where I was

           8       standing and I kept stating that I was standing on the

           9       wall, where in theory, after the case, the pathway is

          10       sort of where I had to go to and fro and it was like it

          11       jogged back my memory and I remember I was at the

          12       railings when all of that took place.

          13   Q.  Okay.  You talk about the last case.  You gave evidence,

          14       I think, in one of the trials of Mr Hutchinson-Foster;

          15       is that right?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  The criminal trial in Snaresbrook?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Is that what you mean by "the last case"?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Okay.  Your memory now then is that you were at the

          22       railings when you saw this; yes?

          23   A.  Yes, I was at the railings.

          24   Q.  You say you were seeing a police officer; can you

          25       describe the police officer?


                                           105
 

 

 


           1   A.  Do you know what?  It's been a long time, love, I can't.

           2   Q.  Do you know whether he was in uniform?

           3   A.  I can't remember.

           4   Q.  All right.  You say -- I do not want to put words in

           5       your mouth, I think I heard you say he took something

           6       from the car; did you see him take something from a car

           7       or not?

           8   A.  I saw him come out of the car with a gun.  An officer

           9       had gone into a car, I think it was a -- it wasn't

          10       a boiler suit policeman, it was a regular police, right?

          11       He had taken the gun out of the car and he placed it

          12       in -- on a black cloth in the palm of his hand

          13       (indicates), right, because when he come out, he was

          14       walking -- can you see me?

          15   Q.  We can.

          16   A.  Sorry.

          17   Q.  No, no, that's helpful.

          18   A.  (Indicates) This is how he had it on the palm of his

          19       hand and he was walking like he was showing or what have

          20       you.

          21   Q.  Was he moving -- when he came out of the car with that,

          22       did he move to your left or to your right or what?

          23   A.  He was moving forwards.

          24   Q.  Towards you?

          25   A.  He moved forwards (indicates).  No, no, no, no, no, no.


                                           106
 

 

 


           1       The back of the car -- he was moving forward to the

           2       front of the car with it, I don't know what happened

           3       after that.

           4   Q.  Okay.  Do you mean you didn't see him again?

           5   A.  No.

           6   Q.  All right.  What did the gun look like?

           7   A.  I've got a drawing (indicates).

           8   Q.  We can put that up on the screen.  That's our CE179.  We

           9       can put that up on screen behind you; is that your

          10       drawing -- sorry, it's just coming.

          11   A.  Yes, it is.

          12   Q.  Let's wait until it comes up on the screen.

          13   A.  I've got a (indicates) --

          14   Q.  We can see it a bit better from your screen, not very

          15       well but a bit better.

          16   A.  Yes.  Yes, that's it.

          17   Q.  A sort of L-shape.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  What colour was it?

          20   A.  I can't -- do you know what, it's happened such a long

          21       time ago, I can't remember.  But one thing I can

          22       remember is that I definitely saw the officer come out

          23       of the car, place the gun on a black cloth (indicates).

          24   Q.  Was the gun wrapped in anything?

          25   A.  No, it wasn't.


                                           107
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Did you see anybody with plastic bags at the time?

           2   A.  No.

           3   Q.  Can you help us with how long after you originally heard

           4       the bangs this would have been?

           5   A.  Can you repeat that, please?

           6   Q.  Of course.  We started this account with you telling us

           7       that you started by hearing bangs; do you remember?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think she said a noise.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  So sorry, noises, I thought it was bangs but

          11       my fault.  How long after that was it that you saw the

          12       police officer with the gun?

          13   A.  Oh, God, erm -- (Pause)

          14           I can't be precise, right, it was roughly about --

          15       because the commotion took place with them taking

          16       Mr Duggan out of the car and it was just after that.

          17       I -- probably -- a couple of minutes -- probably about

          18       five -- I don't know.

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  All right.  Thank you very much.  Some other

          20       people will want to ask you questions, that's all I've

          21       got for you.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Hopefully by talking I'll come up on

          23       the screen before you.  Can you see me yet?  That's me.

          24       Hello.  Just so you can see it.  It's rather difficult

          25       for you to see who's asking you questions, isn't it, at


                                           108
 

 

 


           1       the moment, Miss J or is it all right when you are

           2       looking at the screen of the court and the barristers?

           3   A.  I get used to it.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Well done.  Otherwise

           5       I might ask any barrister who wants to be a bit more

           6       prominent on the screen, if he or she would wish to, we

           7       could ask them to sit in the witness box and look across

           8       in the witness camera, that might be a way of getting

           9       them a bit bigger, but we'll see how it goes on then.

          10           What I am going to do is ask another barrister, he

          11       will stand up in the court and ask you some questions

          12       and you'll let us know if everything is all right at

          13       your end.

          14           I know you have a supporter there on your left, so

          15       if at any time you want a break, please say, but if not

          16       we'll see how we get on with the questions being asked.

          17           I'll ask anyone on behalf of the family,

          18       Mr Mansfield?

          19   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Mansfield is going to ask you

          21       some questions now.

          22                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          23   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon Miss J, my name's Michael

          24       Mansfield.  I'm going slowly, can you see enough of me?

          25   A.  You're a bit vivid.


                                           109
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I'm a bit vivid?

           2   A.  Yeah.  You're not all that clear but it's all right.

           3   Q.  Okay, well, we'll make do.

           4           First of all, I want to ask you about a statement

           5       that you made nearly two years ago now, in the same year

           6       as the incident.  Because I have to take care with it,

           7       the reference to the page -- I'll go slowly because it

           8       has to be adjusted -- is CS0512.  While that is being

           9       found, just to introduce it to you, it's a statement

          10       that you made to the IPCC on 7 November 2011.

          11           I think the statement is now in front of you.  I'm

          12       looking at the fifth page, about halfway down.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  I am asking you this because it was made a little nearer

          15       the time.  I want to ask you about what is written

          16       there.  Have you got the paragraph "After pausing at

          17       point F"; do you have that?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  I appreciate today --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  You've got that?  You couldn't remember when looking at

          22       the plan.  It's difficult to put it all up on the screen

          23       at the same time.

          24           I wonder if they could have the plan.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Which plan are we putting before the


                                           110
 

 

 


           1       jury?

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  This is the plan CE178.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  I see no reason why that --

           4       I know the witness has a copy of this before her.  Yes,

           5       no problems about that.  (Handed).

           6   MR MANSFIELD:  Could you confirm that the sketch plan which

           7       we've got, X218 on the bottom right-hand side, that's

           8       your sketch plan that you did at the time of the

           9       statement?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Yes.  So if you have that near you as I just go through

          12       what you said in your statement.  So just going back to

          13       that paragraph on page 5:

          14           "After pausing at point F for a few seconds ..."

          15           Now, you see point F on your sketch plan, do you?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  You've come -- to get to that point, you've come from --

          18       where do you live in relation to this sketch plan?  Is

          19       it off the bottom or off one side or the other, just so

          20       the jury may get an idea of where you came from in the

          21       first place?

          22   A.  Do you know where the wall is?

          23   Q.  Yes.

          24   A.  Just there.

          25   Q.  Just there?


                                           111
 

 

 


           1   A.  Near there.

           2   Q.  Near there, all right.

           3   A.  The walkway -- you've got a walkway.

           4   Q.  Yes.

           5   A.  You've got a walkway, then you've got the road -- you've

           6       got a walkway, you've got the pavement, then you've got

           7       the road, then you've got the bus stop, yeah.

           8   Q.  Thank you very much.

           9   A.  You're welcome.

          10   Q.  Going back to the paragraph:

          11           "I crossed over Jarrow Road, you have just mentioned

          12       that and went on stood on the low wall next to my

          13       neighbour's house which gave me a bit of height to gain

          14       a view."

          15           Now, I'm stopping there.  I'm not quite clear about

          16       what you are saying today.  Did you go and stand on the

          17       wall at this point or not?

          18   A.  No, I stood on the wall after all the commotion and

          19       everything, that's where I ended up, on the wall to see

          20       what was going on.

          21   Q.  All right.  I'm carrying on --

          22   A.  I think actually when I -- the first time I got told to

          23       move, right, so I went back and more than likely I was

          24       standing on the wall at that point, and then, when the

          25       officers pulled out Mr Duggan out of the car, right,


                                           112
 

 

 


           1       that's when I went back over to the green.

           2   Q.  Right.  Now:

           3           "I was still watching the CPR continue ..."

           4           That's in the statement:

           5           "... at approximately 6.25 I think this was the time

           6       as I think it was about ten minutes after the two

           7       shots ..."

           8           Now, I'm stopping there, there isn't a full stop.

           9       Is it right to say that, from the beginning, you've been

          10       very clear that you heard two shots; is that right?

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  Going on with the statement:

          13           "The next thing that stood out to me was a policeman

          14       running towards Tottenham Hale train station.  I have

          15       marked on my sketch point L ..."

          16           Do you see that on your sketch, "L", or not?

          17   A.  (Pause)

          18           Yes.

          19   Q.  I think we can make out the letter L:

          20           "... as the first point I recall seeing this police

          21       officer, who I will call handgun officer.  Handgun

          22       officer ran from the direction of the taxi, I didn't see

          23       the handgun officer get in or out of the taxi but

          24       I formed the impression he had come from the taxi as

          25       a few minutes later I recall seeing a different officer


                                           113
 

 

 


           1       in the taxi, probably a few minutes after I saw handgun

           2       officer running."

           3           Now, first of all, do you have a recollection now of

           4       all this or was that your best recollection in

           5       November 2011?

           6   A.  Do you know what, 2011 is, what, two years ago, right?

           7       I've had a lot of things -- a lot of things have

           8       happened and, if I say to you, "Yes, I remember",

           9       I would be lying.  Right, but one thing I can tell you

          10       is that I saw an officer come out the car, right, place

          11       the handgun on a black -- he had a gun on a black piece

          12       of material.  That much I can -- I remember, and it will

          13       never leave me, right, for the simple reason, right,

          14       it's not often that you see a gun in broad daylight.

          15   Q.  No.  Then we will just go back to the statement, there's

          16       not much more, but I just want to go through a little

          17       bit more.  The next paragraph starts:

          18           "I cannot describe the officer that entered the taxi

          19       in terms of their uniform, whether they were armed or

          20       one of the normal police officers.  However, I have

          21       a memory of an officer being in the taxi via the right

          22       hand door at the back on the driver's side at

          23       approximately 6.28.  I do not know if the officer was

          24       male or female.  I did not see them open this door.

          25       I did not see what that officer did in the taxi.  I do


                                           114
 

 

 


           1       not know how long the officer was in the taxi as I was

           2       watching the CPR."

           3           Was that the best of your memory then, in 2011?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Right.  I just want to go on, one more paragraph,

           6       please -- or the next page, so page 6 now, 513 for

           7       reference:

           8           "When I saw the handgun officer running at point L,

           9       he was tall, I could see his waist which makes me think

          10       he was taller than 5'10", the height of the white male

          11       I had seen running this way when I was at point A.  He

          12       had a black belt on.  I think he was wearing a white

          13       shirt.  He looked more like a normal police officer as

          14       opposed to the armed police dressed in navy blue.

          15           "The officer was carrying a clear see-through

          16       forensic bag.  This was the size of two A4 pieces of

          17       paper put together.  There was a handgun in the bag.

          18       The handgun was modern, in that it was a rectangular in

          19       shape.  I have drawn a sketch plan of the gun to show

          20       the shape it was.  Although this sketch of the gun

          21       doesn't show the size of the gun.  It was as long as the

          22       width of an A4 piece of paper.  It was black or grey in

          23       colour.  I knew it was a handgun because I've seen them

          24       on the television.  The officer was holding the gun flat

          25       in his palm with the see-through bag so the gun was flat


                                           115
 

 

 


           1       on its side.

           2           "I could see all of the gun.  I could see the

           3       trigger and the mouth end of the gun, the bit where the

           4       bullet comes out.  I saw the gun for two or three

           5       seconds before handgun officer placed a black cloth over

           6       the gun as he continued to run towards Tottenham Hale.

           7       I have marked this as point K on the sketch."

           8           So if you just look at the sketch again, can you see

           9       point K marked on the sketch plan?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  We have seen already, I do not ask for it again, the

          12       sketch plan -- you have seen it this afternoon -- of the

          13       gun, as you remembered it.  We have seen that today,

          14       have we not, on the screen?

          15   A.  Yes, yes.

          16   Q.  "The black cloth was the size of a normal jay cloth, it

          17       looked like a black flannel.  From a distance the black

          18       cloth looked like a towel like material.  The black

          19       cloth did not cover the whole bag.  I could still see

          20       the clear bag once the cloth was over it and the officer

          21       seemed like he was concerned with covering the gun but

          22       not necessarily the bag."

          23           Again, it's an obvious question but is that how you

          24       remembered it in November 2011?

          25   A.  As I said to you, I can't remember.  I can't -- I've --


                                           116
 

 

 


           1       how can I put it?  It happened, right, I don't remember

           2       everything, but one thing I do remember is that I saw

           3       an officer come out of the car with a gun.

           4   Q.  Well then, one more paragraph and then I want to do one

           5       other thing with you.  Same page, next paragraph:

           6           "I do not know where the handgun officer was running

           7       to, didn't see him speak to anyone while he had the gun

           8       but I informed the impression he was running to show it

           9       to someone.  I felt like it looked like he had

          10       an expression like he had found gold and he was going to

          11       show it to someone.  I do not think I saw this officer

          12       again but I do not think I would have known if I had as

          13       there were so many officers present and a lot going on."

          14           You see that paragraph as well?  Is that

          15       a recollection --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- you now have or only then in November?

          18   A.  I do remember him coming out with the gun in his hand

          19       and it was like he did find gold, it was like I've --

          20       whatever -- I've got it, kind of thing, or unless that's

          21       how he's supposed to hold it for forensic or whatever.

          22   Q.  One more thing, if you wouldn't mind helping us.

          23       I think you have had an opportunity to look at some

          24       filmed footage; is that right?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           117
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I'm going to show it to you now so -- I would not do it

           2       if it was the first time but you have had a chance to

           3       see it.  I would like you to watch, first of all, to

           4       make sure that is what's going to be shown to you now is

           5       what you have already seen, and then I want to ask you

           6       one or two questions, obviously, about whether you can

           7       see yourself or whether there's a scene in it that you

           8       can recollect, that sort of question; do you understand?

           9   A.  I understand.

          10   Q.  All right.  Perhaps we could have -- I think it's being

          11       operated from where you are.  It's film footage that

          12       we've seen here and I am hoping it will start from the

          13       00.00 position and go through.  I don't mind whether it

          14       has arrows or doesn't have arrows.

          15      (Video footage was played at the video link location)

          16   MR MANSFIELD:  Could it stop at 7.40, roughly?

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just so you know, when we get to

          18       7.40, could the film be stopped at that stage, if anyone

          19       can hear me in the room in the other building who's

          20       operating this.

          21           Let us know when you get to 7.40 and when it's

          22       stopped and then we'll ask a question or two then.

          23                    (The video footage ended)

          24   MS DAY:  It's stopped.

          25   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you very much.  This is, what, the


                                           118
 

 

 


           1       second time you have watched this stretch of film; is

           2       that right?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Right.  All I want to ask is: first of all, as far as

           5       you could tell, are you on it anywhere?  We have you on

           6       the bus scene but are you on any of this, that's all I'm

           7       asking, or not?

           8   A.  It's very fuzzy, you know, I ain't got focused eyes.

           9       It's very fuzzy.  I'm looking at the computer.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What's happened?  Is there a smaller

          11       computer screen there; is that what's happening?

          12   MS DAY:  Yes, it's more clear.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have to be very careful it's

          14       only the witness who gives evidence.  Be careful that

          15       only she speaks, please.

          16    (The video footage was played at the video link location)

          17   A.  It's fuzzy, I can't -- can you see me on there?

          18   Q.  I can see you sitting there but I can't see you --

          19       I should not be giving evidence, so it's not for me to

          20       say anything about what's on the film.  I just wondered

          21       if you were able to identify yourself.  I am not

          22       suggesting you can or you can't, just whether you can.

          23           The second question I have is, having watched the

          24       full stretch, not just this last frame, is there any

          25       scene that you watch there that reminds you of anything


                                           119
 

 

 


           1       that you saw?  Is there anything on that stretch of film

           2       that reminds you of anything you saw on the day?

           3   A.  (Pause)

           4           Yeah.

           5   Q.  I'm sorry, they may seem obvious questions.  Could you

           6       just tell us what parts of the stretch of film you have

           7       just seen, as it were, triggers your memory of what

           8       happened on the day, which bits of what you have just

           9       seen.  We can show it again if you want, if you want to

          10       pick it out.

          11   A.  Please, please.  Show it again and whatever I see I'll

          12       say to you that's jogged my memory or that's what I saw

          13       then, yes.

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  Perhaps it can be shown once more.

          15   A.  Sorry?

          16   Q.  That's all right.

          17      (Video footage was played at the video link location)

          18   A.  I saw the cars -- because -- you can see me.

          19       (Indicates) I saw the cars because the railings -- I was

          20       there (indicates).  So this part here (indicates),

          21       I could see.

          22   Q.  Could the frame be stopped so we know what frame you're

          23       looking at.  What is the time on the frame there,

          24       please?  Well, not the time, what is the numbering

          25       that's come up on the frame?  Is it 00 something or 2


                                           120
 

 

 


           1       something?

           2   A.  40 -- it's 000040.09.

           3                    (The video footage ended)

           4           The railings here, that's where I was.  That's how

           5       I was able to see what was going on here.

           6   Q.  Right.  Perhaps it could play on, please, thank you.

           7             (Video footage was played to the court)

           8           Keep looking, if you wouldn't mind.

           9   A.  I saw all of that (indicates).  Go on.

          10   Q.  If it could stop at the same place as before, 7.40.

          11                    (The video footage ended)

          12           Thank you.  Was there any other scene generally that

          13       you recollected -- beyond the bit you showed us where

          14       you were standing, the position of the railings --

          15       anything else on that stretch that triggers any

          16       memories?

          17   A.  No, but I can remember when I was standing at the

          18       railings, I saw the taxi driver run off, right.  He had,

          19       like, a skin coloured t-shirt --

          20   Q.  I want to --

          21   A.  -- on, and he ran --

          22   Q.  Right.  What I want you to do, if you wouldn't mind, one

          23       more bit of film.  This one is part of the same film you

          24       have just seen but there's a white arrow pointing at

          25       somebody and I want you just to watch it, please, in


                                           121
 

 

 


           1       relation to the person with the white arrow on top.  If

           2       that could be shown -- the jury have seen it before.

           3             (Video footage was played to the court)

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  I think, I'm only guessing, we may have gone

           5       passed -- reached 7.40.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have we reached 7.40?

           7   A.  Not yet.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let us know when we get there.

           9       Thanks.

          10                    (The video footage ended)

          11   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you very much.  I'm sorry it's a bit

          12       laborious for you to watch it twice in this way.

          13           The first question is: did you follow the white

          14       arrow over the man wearing a white top or shirt?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Right.  Did you notice that that person was in the

          17       centre of the road quite a bit, wandering back and forth

          18       up the middle of the road; did you see all of that?  On

          19       the film, sorry, did you see it on the film?

          20   A.  Oh, on the film, yeah, yeah.

          21   Q.  There came a point --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- when that person, with the white arrow on him,

          24       disappeared behind the silver minicab.  In other words,

          25       on your side of the minicab, on the railings side of the


                                           122
 

 

 


           1       minicab; did you notice that on the film?

           2   A.  (Pause)

           3           No.

           4   Q.  No, all right.  What I wanted to ask you is this: the

           5       person in the white top or shirt with the arrow over him

           6       in that stretch of film, can you tell whether that

           7       person is the same person as the one you saw with

           8       a handgun?

           9   A.  (Pause)

          10           No.

          11   Q.  You can't tell or it isn't?

          12   A.  (Inaudible).

          13   Q.  I'm sorry?

          14   A.  No.  It wasn't.

          15   Q.  It wasn't the same person?

          16   A.  The person that I -- no.

          17   Q.  It was another person?

          18   A.  Yes.  I remembered seeing a person in a t-shirt that

          19       left the cab from the driver's side and then run down

          20       towards Tottenham Hale station.

          21   Q.  Right.

          22   A.  Right.  To be honest with you, I can't say.  Right, as

          23       I keep stating, I remembered somebody coming out of the

          24       car and they had the handgun placed.  Whether it was --

          25       I saw a gun, right, I'm not a mad woman, right, I had --


                                           123
 

 

 


           1       in fact, I had my daughter next to me, if the truth be

           2       known, right, and I remember when I saw the gun I turned

           3       round to her and I go "Is that a gun?" and she goes to

           4       me, "Yes".  I go "Did you see that?"  She goes to me

           5       "Yes".

           6   Q.  Right.  Final question: is it right to say that you

           7       don't know the Duggan family, you are not a friend of

           8       theirs or their associates, nothing to do with the

           9       Duggans; is that right?

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes, sorry to ask you, thank you very much.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  All right, there are

          13       some more questions now from Mr Thomas, all right?  Are

          14       you okay Miss J to carry on?  Yes?

          15   A.  Yes.  My neck's a bit cricked though.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We know the feeling, don't worry.

          17       That's right, swing it from side to side.  Let's see if

          18       Mr Thomas can help you.

          19                     Questions by MR THOMAS

          20   MR THOMAS:  Miss J, good afternoon.  I represent the loved

          21       ones of Mark Duggan.  Can you hear me okay?

          22   A.  I can.

          23   Q.  I've only got two questions for you.  I appreciate you

          24       say that with the passage of time your memory is not as

          25       good today as it was back then.  I understand that.  But


                                           124
 

 

 


           1       my question is this: you can see the minicab and where

           2       it was parked, yes?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  You describe is it as a silver-coloured vehicle; yes?

           5   A.  Mm.  Yes.

           6   Q.  My first question is: is there any doubt in your mind

           7       that you saw what you believe to be a police officer

           8       coming out of that vehicle?

           9   A.  No.

          10   Q.  Okay.  Second question, can you just help the jury with

          11       this: what was the colour -- what racial origin, was the

          12       person that you saw with what you describe as a gun in

          13       their hand?

          14   A.  English.

          15   Q.  English, what colour?

          16   A.  White.

          17   MR THOMAS:  That's all I ask.

          18   A.  It wasn't a black man because I would remember.  It

          19       wasn't a black man, it was a white man.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Thomas.  Right now

          21       Miss J, there may be some questions from other people

          22       here.  Let's see.  I'll go round and ask some people.

          23           I think, Mr Stern, you are next.  So perhaps,

          24       Mr Stern, you would like to ask your questions.

          25   MR STERN:  Sir, I was wondering whether or not, bearing in


                                           125
 

 

 


           1       mind Miss J's crick in her neck, you might think that

           2       this would be a good time to take a break.  The reason

           3       I say that is I may be able to --

           4   A.  Yes, I do.  Yes, I do.

           5   MR STERN:  Thank you very much, your Honour.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We've got votes all round.

           7   A.  Thank you.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Miss J, you go off and have a break

           9       for ten minutes and we'll all go and have a break for

          10       ten minutes.  Thank you very much.

          11   A.  Thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are, members of the jury,

          13       whether you want it or not we are going to have a break

          14       for ten minutes.

          15           I'll ask the cameras to be turned off here, please.

          16       Thank you very much, if you would like to leave us for

          17       ten minutes.

          20   (3.01 pm)

          21                         (A short break)

          22   (3.14 pm)

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's have the jury in then.

          24                  (In the presence of the jury)

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right then Miss J, can you see me

 

                                           126
 

 

 


           1       all right?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Good.  Can you hear me all right?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Marvellous.  We are all ready here

           6       again, refreshed after our break and the barrister,

           7       Mr Stern, who was just talking to you before the break

           8       is now going to ask you some questions.

           9           Do your very best please to answer them, you are

          10       still under the oath you took earlier on.  Thank you

          11       very much.

          12           Over to Mr Stern.

          13                      Questions by MR STERN

          14   MR STERN:  Thank you sir, and thank you for the break.

          15           Can I start by asking you about some of the timings.

          16       You made a statement, as we know, on 7 November 2011,

          17       yes?

          18   A.  I can't remember what date, but I did make a statement,

          19       yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I just pick up already, sorry to

          21       interrupt you, Mr Stern, but I have a note from the jury

          22       handed to me as I came in.  Did you just make the one

          23       statement?

          24   MR STERN:  I'm going to deal with that.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           127
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'll let Mr Stern ask that.

           2   MR STERN:  I hope to be able to deal with this.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           4   MR STERN:  You actually had four hours or so of interview

           5       with the IPCC, did you not?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Part of that four hours, at the end of it, this

           8       statement was written.

           9   A.  Yes.  What it is, I had my statement -- I done my

          10       statement and there was somebody that was typing it up.

          11   Q.  Yes, in that interview?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  This is the only statement that you've done, this one on

          14       7 November, as far as I know.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Right.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Thank you.  So the first time that you made a statement

          19       was, as I say, in November, so three months after the

          20       incident itself.

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  We're going to have to look at some of the things you

          23       said in November because, quite understandably, you

          24       don't remember much of it now.

          25   A.  No.


                                           128
 

 

 


           1   Q.  First of all, could we look at CD1629.  I hope there is

           2       somebody there who can help find that page for you.

           3       It's not coming up on the screen -- maybe it is -- but

           4       I do not think the jury will be able to see it from

           5       there so I will read the part.

           6           Sir, I'm afraid it will be a little bit slower

           7       because it won't come up on the screen.

           8           What you said, which is page 10 of 173, is:

           9           "The first snapshot I saw was I saw the taxi, the

          10       road was clean, there were no other vehicles on the

          11       road, right, and I saw this armed policeman in navy

          12       blues, the one that was yelling to me to go away, and

          13       then I saw some other policemen in the navy blue

          14       uniform.  They was -- I believe they was probably

          15       looking for the bullets.  They was on the green, I saw

          16       the guys, I said he was doing CPR on him.  I saw a white

          17       man running to the right, I don't know if it was

          18       a skin-coloured t-shirt or he had no t-shirt on but he

          19       was running and I remember somebody saying to him stop

          20       but I couldn't -- you got the railings then you got the

          21       bricks and then after the bricks you can't see nothing

          22       else because it kind of goes like that from here [where

          23       you're looking]."

          24           All right.  So the first thing that you remembered

          25       in November 2011 was seeing a police officer in a blue


                                           129
 

 

 


           1       uniform or blue outfit.

           2   A.  Boiler suit.

           3   Q.  Boiler suit, I think you call it, yes.

           4   A.  Boiler suit, yes.

           5   Q.  If we look at your plan, which I think the jury have

           6       now, page 178 -- C16.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  C16 now, we have put it behind, the

           8       next divider.

           9   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  C16 won't mean anything to them.  It

          11       was the plan that was put up there, CE0178.

          12   MR STERN:  Yes.  I believe you have a hard copy there; is

          13       that right?

          14           Thank you very much, Ms Kemish is pointing it out.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Can I help and try to remind you what it is that you

          17       said about this because I appreciate it all looks rather

          18       confusing?

          19           Shall we start with A?  A is what you said was the

          20       point that you got to before you were told to go away by

          21       the officer who was at letter C, that we can see there.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Does that jog your memory or not?  I can point out to

          24       you the bit in the interview, if you want me to.

          25   A.  Yes, go on.


                                           130
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You said that you were there for about two seconds.

           2   A.  (Pause)

           3   Q.  1651, if you look about a third of the way down, there's

           4       a comment by somebody called Gareth who says:

           5           "Okay, so the officer at C told you to get back.

           6       How long were you at point A before he told you to get

           7       back?

           8           "Answer: I wasn't there, I wasn't there that long,

           9       love.  There was no way that he would have been more

          10       than bloody two seconds if he had his own way.

          11           "Question: So it's a couple of seconds after you've

          12       got -- he told you to get back.

          13           "Answer: Yeah, yeah.

          14           "Question: What was he doing there?  Can you

          15       describe his actions?

          16           "Answer: What he was doing, what -- he was just

          17       telling" --

          18   A.  Do you know what, I don't recall --

          19   Q.  I beg your pardon?

          20   A.  I don't recall saying "bloody two seconds".

          21   Q.  Right.  You see, can I just remind you of this: as far

          22       as I'm aware, and obviously I stand to be corrected if

          23       anybody has a better recollection of every word that

          24       you've spoken, you have not said that you went on the

          25       green twice before.


                                           131
 

 

 


           1   A.  But I went from the green twice.  The first time when

           2       I went over there, the officer told me to move.

           3   Q.  Yes.

           4   A.  The second time when I went over there, right, they were

           5       attending to Mr Duggan, right?  Their backs were towards

           6       me and that's how I had ammunition to go over to the

           7       green to see what I saw.

           8   Q.  I'm going to --

           9   A.  Right, and then --

          10   Q.  I'm going to come onto that.  The question I am asking

          11       is about this very specific matter.  In all the hours

          12       that you spent with the IPCC, and you have given

          13       evidence at Mr Hutchinson-Foster's trial -- or one of

          14       them, didn't you?  You didn't give evidence at the

          15       second trial, you were not called by the defence on the

          16       second trial, were you?

          17   A.  No.

          18   Q.  No.  In the first trial, you gave evidence.  In all of

          19       that time, you have never said, have you, that you went

          20       up twice?

          21   A.  I was never asked.

          22   Q.  Well, if I may say --

          23   A.  But obviously, right, if -- an officer told me to go

          24       away the first time I was on the green, right.  For me

          25       to have seen what I saw, then I would have had to go on


                                           132
 

 

 


           1       the green a second time.

           2   Q.  Well, what you said was that you were at point A, then

           3       you were sent back and then, from there, you went to

           4       point F.  Can you see just below A?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Then you walked back to what we can see is that wall

           7       where there's a "J".

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  That wall is only about a foot high, isn't it?  It's

          10       a very low wall.

          11   A.  Ah, I know where you're getting to.

          12   Q.  I am not getting anywhere.

          13   A.  In my last statement -- in my last statement, I kept

          14       saying that I was on the wall when I saw whatever.

          15   Q.  Yes, you did.

          16   A.  Right.  So the green -- the green, I have to pass there

          17       at least twice, sometimes four times of a day, right,

          18       and through passing, it's jogged my memory, right, and

          19       I remember being there.

          20   Q.  Yes.  That's what you're telling us in 2013, but you

          21       have never said that --

          22   A.  Yes, I'm telling you in 2013 because I pass there all

          23       the time and the fact that I pass there all the time, it

          24       jogged my memory and I remember.

          25   Q.  I see.  But did you --


                                           133
 

 

 


           1   A.  I cannot remember everything else, right, but I can

           2       remember that, because it's somewhere where I pass (?)

           3       and I remember making the (?) up at the last

           4       statement.  I couldn't remember whether it was the wall

           5       or whether it was on the green.

           6   Q.  Right.  But didn't you pass every day in 2011?

           7   A.  Have you ever forgotten something, and then through

           8       jogging your memory or revisiting or -- or revisiting,

           9       right, things will come back to you?

          10   Q.  Yes, all right.  Shall we look at 1653, please?  What

          11       you say in the middle of the page, or you're asked this

          12       again by somebody called Gareth:

          13           "Okay, and that chap at point C, was he there when

          14       you first looked at the scene?

          15           "Answer: Yes he was there when I first looked at the

          16       scene and at 6.40 when I came in, he was still there."

          17           Is that right?  That the officer at position C was

          18       there when you came out and he remained there until you

          19       went inside at 6.40?

          20   A.  (Pause)

          21           I can't -- as I said, I can't remember that.

          22       I remember the officer being there, right, he was a big

          23       bloke --

          24   Q.  Yes.

          25   A.  -- and he was the one on the second occasion, when


                                           134
 

 

 


           1       I went onto the green, he was the one that told me to go

           2       back.

           3   Q.  Yes.  That's right.  It's more likely that you were

           4       right in 2011 when you said that he stayed there

           5       throughout.

           6   A.  As I said to you, there's certain things that I can

           7       remember and there's certain things that I don't,

           8       remember, right?  At the end of the day, right, you have

           9       to put your -- try and put yourself in my shoes, right?

          10       Mark Duggan is not my son, right, so at the end of the

          11       day, right, I am not going to remember things --

          12       everything -- right, there's certain things that won't

          13       leave me.  Right, and being on the green, seeing what

          14       I saw will not leave me.  I can't tell you it was this

          15       time or this is the date that I done this statement or

          16       what have you.

          17   Q.  No, I appreciate that.  Can I make it clear to you I'm

          18       not trying to criticise you, but I am exploring how

          19       reliable your evidence is.  Just so you understand what

          20       I'm doing, all right?

          21   A.  I do understand, right, and at the end of the day,

          22       right, I've got no reason to lie.

          23   Q.  I am not suggesting for a moment that you are lying, all

          24       right?  So can we clear that away.  I am not suggesting

          25       that you're not trying to tell the truth, all right?


                                           135
 

 

 


           1           Could we look at what you said at CD1655.  You said

           2       that the officers that you saw there, and if we go back

           3       to your plan at 178, because you can have both up there

           4       and the jury have the plan.  If we look to the left of

           5       A, as you look at the plan, there's D and E, aren't

           6       there?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Those two officers, you said that they came within

           9       minutes of you being there.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Yes.  What you said was:

          12           "Because the way they was looking they looked like

          13       they were looking for something on the ground.  They

          14       looked like they was looking for something."

          15           That was what you said in November 2011.  Does that

          16       jog your memory?

          17   A.  Yes, yes.

          18   Q.  All right, good.  What you said, just so you have the

          19       reference there at page 1655:

          20           "Question: The officers at D were they there when

          21       you first looked at the scene as well.

          22           "Answer: I don't think so.  I think they come on

          23       within minutes after being there actually."

          24           All right, does that help you?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           136
 

 

 


           1   Q.  All right.  Can we just look, just so it helps you, at

           2       CS510, which is your statement.  Don't worry about the

           3       date, I am not testing you on that, I am just trying to

           4       help people understand when you made your statement.

           5           Just look at the top of page -- do you have it?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  All right, thank you.

           8   A.  Sorry.

           9   Q.  No, don't worry:

          10           "The police officer stood at the point I have marked

          11       C and he was a male police officer, wearing navy blue

          12       all in one clothing and a bullet proof vest.  He had

          13       a gun which he might have been carrying over his back

          14       although I cannot describe this further.  The officer

          15       told me to get back and shouted at me to go away.

          16       I remember he said this: 'This is the scene of a crime

          17       and this whole area has been sealed off.'  Nasty tone of

          18       voice and he barked at me.  Don't recall what accent he

          19       had.  Apart from his tone being nasty, there was nothing

          20       else distinctive about his voice.  He was stood on the

          21       grass and he was looking around above him and pacing

          22       about.  He remained at this position throughout until

          23       I went back into my house at 6.40 pm."

          24           So when you made your statement, I'm sure you were

          25       careful, were you not, because you knew, at the front


                                           137
 

 

 


           1       page of the statement, you had signed a declaration,

           2       didn't you, which was to say that it was true?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  I won't read it all, but that's essentially --

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  All right.  Now, you then went to position J, did you

           7       not, as we can see at 178.  Position J was -- I think it

           8       was measured at the Hutchinson-Foster trial -- came out

           9       at just over 50 metres away from the pavement where the

          10       taxi cab is.

          11   A.  Ah, this is the hiccup, right.  In the Hutchinson trial,

          12       right, I couldn't remember where I was standing,

          13       I thought it was the wall, but as I said to you, right,

          14       over a period of time, the green, I had to cross it, to

          15       and fro, sometimes I passed it about four times, right,

          16       and, after the Hutchinson case, right, I recollected and

          17       I remembered I was standing at the railing.  That's how

          18       I saw what I saw.  Right, it would be impossible for me

          19       to see what I saw if I was standing on the wall.

          20   Q.  Is that right?

          21   A.  That is right.  Because it's too far away.

          22   Q.  But --

          23   A.  The wall is across the road.

          24   Q.  Exactly.

          25   A.  And I kept saying to you -- I kept saying to you that


                                           138
 

 

 


           1       I could see somebody's waist, right.  The reason why

           2       I could see it's because I was standing on the green

           3       where the railings are, and if the truth be known I was

           4       tiptoeing as well.

           5   Q.  Yes.  I'm sure you were.

           6           In your interview, and in your evidence, you said

           7       that you were on the wall, didn't you?

           8   A.  I was on the wall at some point.  But when I saw what

           9       I saw, right, I was not on the wall.  That's after all

          10       the commotion.

          11   Q.  All right.  Let's go through it, in fairness to you, so

          12       we can see what it is.

          13           Let's go through it stage by stage, because what you

          14       said in your statement at page 510 is you said that you

          15       saw certain things at point A and certain things at

          16       point J.  I want to deal with them chronologically as

          17       you put them in your statement, so that we can see what

          18       it was you said you saw and how we go through it.

          19           First of all, you said that when you reached point A

          20       there were no other vehicles on the road; is that right?

          21   A.  Yes, when I ran out there were no other vehicle on the

          22       road.

          23   Q.  You said that you saw two vehicles that were there, two

          24       police vehicles.  If we look at the plan again at 178,

          25       you mark them on the plan at G, which is in the top part


                                           139
 

 

 


           1       of the plan --

           2   A.  Do you know the road that you're talking about?  You're

           3       talking about Jarrow Road, right, when I say that the

           4       road was clear, right, I'm talking about Jarrow Road.

           5       I'm not talking about the main road.

           6   Q.  Okay.

           7   A.  Right.  Normally, Jarrow Road, right, is a busy road.

           8       It was clear.  When I ran out it was clear, right, there

           9       was no vehicles there.

          10   Q.  All right.  If you just look at 510 of your statement.

          11       As I said I don't want to go into every point but if we

          12       look at line 9:

          13           "At the point I reached point A I recall the road

          14       (Ferry Lane) was clear.  There was no other vehicles on

          15       the road."

          16           Do you see that?

          17   A.  Yes, Ferry Lane.  That's Jarrow Road.

          18   Q.  Sorry?

          19   A.  Ferry Lane is Jarrow Road.  Ferry Lane is the name of

          20       the estate, right.  That road that comes along is Jarrow

          21       Road.

          22   Q.  Well, then it may be we're talking about a different

          23       terms from everyone else.

          24           As I understand it, Erskine Crescent is a road that

          25       comes off Jarrow Road where there's a bus stop on


                                           140
 

 

 


           1       Jarrow Road, yes?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  There's a bus stop on one side and a bus stop on the

           4       other side of Jarrow Road?

           5   A.  Yes.  That's Ferry Lane/Jarrow Road.  That's what I was

           6       talking about.  That road was clear.

           7   Q.  You call that Ferry Lane, do you?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  I see.  If we just look at 1632, you say:

          10           "This is where the boy and the railings is, yeah,

          11       I say this is where that Road, yeah.

          12           Questions: Jarrow Road, yeah?"

          13           Is what Gareth says.

          14           You were trying to draw and you had difficulty

          15       drawing the bus stop, yes?

          16   A.  (Pause)

          17   Q.  It may not matter exactly what the road is called.

          18       Perhaps we will try to move on because otherwise we are

          19       not going to finish.

          20           Can we just come back to the plan.  Whatever you

          21       call the road, just look at G if you will, please, on

          22       the plan?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Can you see in front of the taxi there's a letter H?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           141
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Now, those cars, which is what you said they were, were

           2       white marked police cars.  That's what you said in your

           3       statement; do you remember that?

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  Let me show you then, to help you.  510 again, line 13.

           6       You say:

           7           "As I have been interviewed by IPCC investigators,

           8       I have also recalled that when I reached point A, I saw

           9       two police vehicles which I've marked as G and H on my

          10       sketch.  Vehicle G was a marked police vehicle in that

          11       it was a white police car with markings on."

          12           All right?  So that's what you said was the vehicle

          13       that you saw when you got to point A, a white marked

          14       police vehicle, yes?

          15   A.  (Pause)

          16   Q.  You may not remember it now but that's what you actually

          17       said in November 2011, yes?

          18   A.  (Pause)

          19   Q.  Do you remember it or you don't remember it?

          20   A.  Don't remember it.

          21   Q.  All right, all right.  Let's just go on then you say:

          22           "G was parked behind the taxi and was also facing

          23       towards Tottenham Hale station."

          24           Then you say:

          25           "As far as I can recall, vehicle H was also a marked


                                           142
 

 

 


           1       police car, although I'm less sure about this.

           2       Vehicle H was parked in front of the taxi but it was

           3       facing the other way, towards Walthamstow."

           4           In other words, that vehicle was a marked vehicle,

           5       if your assessment was right, and it was pointing not to

           6       Tottenham Hale but the opposite direction, in other

           7       words facing the minicab.  Does that help you?

           8   A.  No.

           9   Q.  All right, but that's what you wrote at the time.

          10   A.  (Pause)

          11   Q.  Yes?

          12   A.  I didn't write this statement.  I spoke, somebody else

          13       typed up the statement.

          14   Q.  Yes.  But they read it through to you at the end, didn't

          15       they?

          16   A.  I can't remember.

          17   Q.  All right.  You signed it, didn't you?

          18   A.  I did sign it, but then again I cannot remember signing

          19       it, but I did sign it.

          20   Q.  You signed each page.

          21   A.  If my signature's there, then obviously I did, but like

          22       I said I can't remember that.

          23   Q.  Can we look at line -- same page, 510, line 19, which is

          24       the second paragraph up.  This is also what you say you

          25       could see from point A.  You say:


                                           143
 

 

 


           1           "I saw a person lying on the pavement close to the

           2       railings.  I do not know how the person on the ground

           3       got to this position as I did not see this.  However,

           4       there were police officers stood around the taxi at this

           5       point, there was more than one officer stood close to

           6       the taxi, probably two, I think they were just looking

           7       and watching.  They were firearms officers.  The body on

           8       the pavement was closer to the railings than the taxi.

           9       I could not see if it was a man or a woman or if the

          10       person was black or white, but I could make out a body

          11       lying on the pavement and a police officer was carrying

          12       out CPR on him.  I know what CPR is because I'm trained

          13       for it in my work.  The feet of the body were facing

          14       towards Tottenham Hale train station and the head was

          15       towards Walthamstow."

          16           That's what you wrote in your statement in

          17       November 2011, yes?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Now, you have said today, have you not, that Mark Duggan

          20       was pulled from the car?

          21   A.  Yes.  Because that's -- there was a commotion -- there

          22       was a commotion when that was taking place.  Right, and

          23       that's when I ran over and that's when I got told to

          24       move back.

          25   Q.  Did you see Mark Duggan pulled from the car?


                                           144
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  Because I saw the -- they pulled him from the car

           2       and placed him at the railings.

           3   Q.  Why did you put in your statement then:

           4           "I do not know how the person on the ground got to

           5       this position."

           6   A.  (Pause)

           7           He was pulled out the car by a -- I can't remember

           8       how many officers but he was pulled out the car by

           9       officers and he was placed at the railings.

          10   Q.  You remember that?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  So why did you sign the statement then that was

          13       untrue --

          14   A.  Actually, actually, the statement that I've got in front

          15       of me, I can't see my signature on it.

          16   Q.  It's a typed version.

          17   A.  Where is my original statement with my signature on it?

          18   Q.  Yes, of course you can see that.  I'm sure somebody has

          19       it.  Obviously, I won't have it but it may be the IPCC

          20       have it, I don't know.

          21   MR GLASSON:  We do have it, sir.  (Handed)

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's all right, Miss J, we do have

          23       it here.  What I suggest is if that's handed to me and

          24       then if Miss J will take it from me if there are any

          25       alterations on any particular questions that you ask,


                                           145
 

 

 


           1       Mr Stern.

           2   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.  First of all, I think one

           3       can confirm that it is signed on each page, first of

           4       all.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, it is.  You won't be able to

           6       see it where you are but here it is.  It's got your

           7       signatures at the bottom of each page (indicates) and at

           8       the top for the declaration --

           9   A.  It's word for word.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What will happen, Miss J, is if

          11       Mr Stern asks you a question and if you doubt that it's

          12       in this original statement, I shall be checking it as we

          13       go; all right?  Just trust me on this, all right, then

          14       we'll see how we go.  But we are going to direct the

          15       questions and move on once you have had one chance at

          16       answering them to the next question on a different

          17       topic.

          18   MR STERN:  Thank you.  1634, please, in the interview in

          19       November.  You were asked, right at the bottom of the

          20       page:

          21           "Question: Just in terms of the car, you have

          22       an image or you have a memory of it being open, if you

          23       think back.  You say it was open.

          24           "It was open.  I don't know if they pulled Duggan

          25       out of the taxi that side to give him CPR or what have


                                           146
 

 

 


           1       you."

           2           Do you remember saying that -- do you remember

           3       saying that?

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  You also say at the middle of the page that the door

           6       opened outwards, in other words it was a normal car door

           7       that opened outwards; do you remember saying that?

           8   A.  In -- yes, something in terms of that, yeah.

           9   Q.  Yes, all right, thank you very much.

          10           Shall we look at 1676?

          11           If we look about halfway down, you were being asked

          12       about the snapshot.  Do you remember the bit I just read

          13       you before about the snapshot, when you said you were at

          14       A, that you saw:

          15           "Question: You first looked, you saw the taxi, maybe

          16       H and G [that's the one on the plan].  In the first

          17       snapshot did you see the body on the ground?

          18           "Answer: I think there was pulling the body out of

          19       the car actually.

          20           "Question: Right is that what you saw.

          21           "Answer: Yeah, they were pulling the body out of the

          22       car and that's when they put him on in front of the

          23       railings."

          24           Then we go over the page --

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           147
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Then we go over the page, you say:

           2           "I can't -- I could -- I couldn't physically because

           3       this one here that told me to get back, so I couldn't --

           4       I couldn't -- but from standing I could see them like

           5       they were bending and the next thing I've seen the body

           6       here.  So it's obvious it was the police that pulled

           7       because he can't."

           8           You were making an assumption, weren't you?  Do you

           9       understand what I mean by that?  You were --

          10   A.  Yes, I do.

          11   Q.  You do, thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  As I haven't got this open in front

          13       of me, the interview, when exactly was it?

          14   MR STERN:  7 November 2011.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Time of day?

          16   MR STERN:  Well, over four hours.  It started in the

          17       afternoon and end up about 6 o'clock.  It ends up with

          18       the statement being written at the end.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          20   MR STERN:  I can give you the exact time.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          22   MR STERN:  1677, we are on that page.  You said:

          23           "They pulled him out and then they was bending over

          24       him where one was doing the CPR, the others were like

          25       crowding him they don't know -- I think one of them


                                           148
 

 

 


           1       actually went into the car -- I presume because his body

           2       was out there and if his body is outside and he's got

           3       the gun, if he's got the gun.  Then I would have seen it

           4       through the railings."

           5           Again you were assuming, because the body was by the

           6       railings, that he must have been taken out of the car,

           7       yes?

           8   A.  He was taken out of the car.  How did his body get to

           9       the railing?  He was taken out of the car.

          10   Q.  I see.  All right.  Let's look at the next page, 1678,

          11       in the middle of the page you say:

          12           "Question: Where this point you are now telling us

          13       about that you've seen him, you've seen Mark Duggan

          14       being pulled from the taxi, is that something you

          15       actually saw?

          16           "Answer: I think as I've come out" --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  -- "when I ran over, I think that's where they were

          19       pulling him out so that might have been one of the first

          20       things you saw in that.

          21           Yeah, snapshot, yeah."

          22           Then 1681, right at the bottom of the page:

          23           "Question: You have said there were police around,

          24       you have said there was a taxi and as we've gone on

          25       you've said you think the police were pulling Mark


                                           149
 

 

 


           1       Duggan out of the taxi, but did you actually see that?

           2           "Answer: I think -- yeah, I did.  They was pulling

           3       him out, they was pulling him out.

           4           "Question: Okay.

           5           "Answer: They was pulling him out.

           6           "Question: Just focusing just on that, breaking it

           7       down how many officers were involved?

           8           "Answer: I couldn't tell you about that --

           9       I couldn't tell you, I couldn't tell you.

          10           "Question: Focusing on that image then of the police

          11       pulling him out, because obviously this is --

          12           "Answer: It's about probably two, probably two.

          13           "Question: So more than one, probably, we're saying.

          14           "Answer: Two, yeah, probably.  The same one that

          15       pulled him was probably the same on that was doing the

          16       CPR on him probably.

          17           "Question: So more than one, probably two, just to

          18       sort of get a real idea would you -- you know could

          19       there have been more than four or more than five?

          20           "Answer: Policemen?

          21           "Question: Yeah involved in the pulling out, I'm

          22       just trying to get an idea of how many were involved in

          23       pulling him out of the taxi.

          24           "Answer: I don't know because don't forget I can

          25       only see one side.  I don't know the other side what was


                                           150
 

 

 


           1       going the other side I can only see through the railings

           2       like this part here."

           3           Then somebody suggests to you, one of the IPCC:

           4           "Okay but probably two?

           5           "Answer: Yeah.

           6           "Question: Definitely more than one?

           7           "Answer: Yeah.

           8           "Question: But you couldn't sort of give it on terms

           9       of scale, you couldn't cap it, you know, at the end like

          10       a maximum number?

          11           "Answer: No, no, I couldn't.

          12           "Question: Okay, so when you say they were pulling

          13       him out can you tell us exactly, how, they were

          14       pulling him?

          15           "Answer: I couldn't tell you how they was pulling

          16       him out.  I knew that they pulled him out of the car

          17       that they had to get him onto the pavement to do CPR.

          18       I don't know."

          19           Then you were talking about him being laid there.

          20           Then over the page at 1684, you were asked:

          21           "How did you know -- like how did the officers how

          22       were they holding him, yeah how did they hold him?

          23           "Answer: I couldn't see that I couldn't tell you

          24       that, love.  The only thing I know is that the body came

          25       out because I could see physically see the body and


                                           151
 

 

 


           1       I could see them -- I could see them doing CPR because

           2       I could see the hand movements pumping up and down.

           3           "Question: Just on that then you could see a body.

           4       Was that in the taxi?

           5           "Answer: No through the railings.

           6           "Question: Did you see the body in the taxi at all?

           7           "Answer: No, I couldn't see in the taxi."

           8           That's what you said.

           9   A.  Yeah.

          10   Q.  Is that right?

          11   A.  Yeah, because at that time I was at the wall so

          12       I couldn't see in the taxi.  I could only see through

          13       the rails and that's how I could see them giving him

          14       CPR.

          15   Q.  I see.  But you couldn't tell whether it was male or

          16       female, the person lying on the ground, could you?

          17   A.  I didn't know who it was, I didn't know who they were --

          18   Q.  Forgive me, you couldn't see whether the person was male

          19       or female, could you?

          20   A.  Do you mean the body?  No.

          21   Q.  Yes.  You couldn't say whether that person was white,

          22       black or whatever colour --

          23   A.  No, I couldn't.

          24   Q.  No?

          25   A.  At that time I couldn't, no.


                                           152
 

 

 


           1   Q.  No.  Can we just look at 1686.  I'm sorry that this is

           2       rather long but it was a very long interview and you did

           3       give a number of answers in relation to this?

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The whole purpose of the interview

           5       was no doubt so the statement could then be taken by the

           6       interviewer.

           7   MR STERN:  Yes, but, if I may say so with respect, the

           8       statement does not necessarily reflect what's in the

           9       interview.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, all right.

          11   MR STERN:  Page 1686, halfway down:

          12           "The door was open.  I think that's where they

          13       dragged him, the door was open and that's where they

          14       pulled him out.  I don't know how many of them pulled

          15       him out."

          16           Then you say:

          17           "I think the officers probably opened the door and

          18       that's when they were telling him to get out."

          19           Yes?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Then if we look at 1744, I will leave out some of the

          22       references and come more towards the end:

          23           "I saw officers around the taxi, the next thing

          24       I saw his body out at the railings."

          25           The IPCC person says:


                                           153
 

 

 


           1           "Okay.

           2           "Answer: I don't know how they pulled him out or how

           3       he --

           4           "Question: You don't know how he got to the

           5       railings?

           6           "Answer: No.

           7           "Question: What you saw was officers around the

           8       taxi?

           9           "Answer: Yeah.  Right, what I say from point A

          10       I also saw a person lying on the pavement close to the

          11       railings and in relation to the taxi.

          12           "Answer: I know, you have said that ..." et cetera.

          13           You said again didn't you, that you had not seen it?

          14       That you had not seen him come out of the taxi.  If we

          15       look --

          16   A.  He comes out of the taxi.

          17   Q.  1762, and this is the last one I'll refer you to.

          18           Right at the top.  This is a question you are being

          19       asked:

          20           "So from point A you saw a person lying on the

          21       pavement close to the railings.

          22           "Answer: Do not know how the person got it to this

          23       position as I did not see this."

          24           This is then going through your statement with you,

          25       right, as it's being written up:


                                           154
 

 

 


           1           "There were police officers stood around the

           2       taxi" --

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry?

           4   MR STERN:  As it's being typed up.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where was this interview taking

           6       place?

           7   MR STERN:  In a house, I won't say where.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It wasn't the house, was it?

           9   MR STERN:  As the lady said, her daughter was next to her.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I think her daughter was next to

          11       her for when she was seeing the gun.

          12   MR STERN:  Your daughter was in the interview, wasn't she?

          13   A.  I can't remember.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let me just ask you, Miss J,

          15       directly: this interview that's being put before you

          16       now, where did the interview itself take place?  Did it

          17       take place at your home or somewhere else?

          18   A.  Home.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry?

          20   A.  Home.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At your home.  Was it being

          22       recorded?  How was it being dealt with?  How was it

          23       being -- we see it before you now; was there a tape

          24       recorder going, was there someone there with a --

          25   A.  Do you know what, your Honour, I can't remember, I can't


                                           155
 

 

 


           1       remember.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  How was it that a statement was then

           3       printed up for your signature?  Did that all happen at

           4       the same time?

           5   MR STERN:  I can help, if you want me to.

           6   A.  Yes, it did.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I don't really.

           8   MR STERN:  You want the lady to help?

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  I know I'm looking at you

          10       because I can't look at her very well, other than

          11       looking at the camera there.

          12           Can you remember how the statement was taken?

          13   A.  Somebody asked me questions and there was -- I believe

          14       they was typing it while I was -- I was being

          15       questioned.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  It's just, for example, we

          17       have had this conversation that you've told us about,

          18       seeing the body being pulled out from the taxi cab,

          19       that's something which you said; is that right?  We have

          20       just gone through that.

          21   A.  Pardon?

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Perhaps I don't need to go any

          23       further onto this.

          24           At the end of this interview, there was then

          25       a completed typed-up statement given to you for your


                                           156
 

 

 


           1       signature; is that the position?

           2   A.  Do you know what, I can't remember.  I know that I had

           3       to sign something.  I don't know how it got printed up,

           4       I can't remember.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  I am not going to delay

           6       matters by going any further.  Back to Mr Stern, thank

           7       you.

           8   MR STERN:  What happened was that you were interviewed for

           9       a long period of time and during the course of the end

          10       of that, they were typing up the statement and asking

          11       you at various stages whether that was right or wrong or

          12       whatever; do you remember now?

          13   A.  I do remember.

          14   Q.  All right.  Coming back, if I may, just to this last

          15       passage in this particular aspect at 1762, they were

          16       reading this particular part to you:

          17           "'Right, so from point A I also saw a person lying

          18       on the pavement close to the railings.  Do not know how

          19       the person on the ground got to this position as I did

          20       not see this.  However there were police officers stood

          21       around the taxi.'

          22           "Answer: What else do you want us to put about that

          23       because obviously the first -- when we were talking

          24       through your account you were saying you thought the

          25       officers might have dragged him from the taxi and put


                                           157
 

 

 


           1       him into that position, that you then saw him but you

           2       say 'I didn't physically see him'."

           3           Joe, the IPCC person:

           4           "You didn't actually see that but that's what you

           5       thought might have happened?

           6           "Answer: Yeah."

           7           Is that right, that you didn't physically see him

           8       being pulled from the vehicle?

           9   A.  I didn't see him physically being pulled but I just

          10       presumed, because he had to get out the cab one way and

          11       he couldn't have got on his own, somebody would have had

          12       to pull him out of the cab to put him where he was.

          13   Q.  I see.  Then let me ask you why it was that you told the

          14       jury today that he had been pulled from the vehicle?

          15   A.  Because I remembered seeing the commotion, I'm pretty

          16       sure that he was pulled -- every time I think about it,

          17       as I was -- as you're in front of me and I'm trying to

          18       revisit what happened, I'm seeing like he was being

          19       pulled out.

          20   Q.  But you've already told us, just a moment ago, that you

          21       didn't see it and that you presumed that that happened?

          22       So I'm asking really, as a matter of fairness, why it is

          23       that you said on oath today that you did see it.

          24   A.  Because I've -- that is what I've -- every time I think

          25       about it, that's what I'm seeing, the officers pulling


                                           158
 

 

 


           1       him out.

           2   Q.  I am moving on.

           3           You saw a man with no shirt on; is that right?

           4   A.  He had no shirt on but he had, like, a skin tone t-shirt

           5       on.

           6   Q.  I think you were not sure to be fair, whether he had

           7       a skin toned t-shirt or he had no t-shirt on at all.

           8   A.  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

           9   Q.  All right.  He was a white man.  Do you remember any of

          10       this or not?

          11   A.  Yeah.

          12   Q.  Don't say "yeah" just because I'm asking you the

          13       question, if you don't remember just say so.

          14   A.  I will.

          15   Q.  Thank you.

          16   A.  I do remember.

          17   Q.  Good.  I think he had "blondy gingery hair", is the way

          18       you have described it in interview?

          19   A.  I don't remember.

          20   Q.  All right.  If we look back at your plan, that may help

          21       you, page 178 -- sorry, C16.  Can you see the letter B?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  You said that that was the first time that you saw the

          24       man who was in the -- either in the skin coloured

          25       t-shirt or no t-shirt, yes?


                                           159
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  I can point it out to you in the interview if you want

           3       but do you accept that or not?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Right.  What made you think he was the taxi driver?

           6   A.  (Pause)

           7           Point B?

           8   Q.  Yes, that's on your plan, yes.

           9   A.  I saw somebody come out the taxi and they was running

          10       down -- that's what I saw, and I just presumed it was

          11       the taxi driver.

          12   Q.  You saw him get out of the taxi, did you?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  All right.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have got that recollection of

          16       seeing that man get out of the taxi, have you?

          17   A.  I've seen somebody running from the taxi.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you see that person get out of

          19       the taxi, was the question.

          20   A.  But I saw him running away from the taxi.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

          22   MR STERN:  That's why I'm coming back to that question that

          23       the learned Coroner was asking you: did you see him get

          24       out of the taxi?

          25   A.  (Pause)


                                           160
 

 

 


           1           Yes.

           2   Q.  All right.  Shall we just look at your statement at 511,

           3       right at the bottom of the page:

           4           "The first point I saw the white male running was at

           5       point B, which was ahead of the taxi and on the pavement

           6       and because I believe a police officer was shouting

           7       after the white male to stop, I believed the white male

           8       to be the taxi driver.  I did not see the white male get

           9       out of the taxi though."

          10           That's what you said in your statement.  Was that

          11       accurate?

          12   A.  (Pause)

          13           Yeah.

          14   Q.  Let me ask you again: why did you just tell the jury

          15       a moment ago that you saw him get out of the taxi?

          16   A.  I presume he got out the taxi.

          17   Q.  Yes.

          18   A.  Because that's why I presume he was the taxi driver.

          19   Q.  But you didn't say you presumed, did you?  You say that

          20       you actually got out.  In fact, when you gave evidence

          21       at the trial -- we don't need to have this up but for

          22       anyone's reference it's CHF2254, you were asked where

          23       you saw this man and you said:

          24           "I saw him come out of the driver's side of the

          25       taxi.  I presumed that was the taxi driver."


                                           161
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  You have said that in evidence on oath, didn't you, in

           3       the Crown Court?

           4   A.  I did.  That's what I saw -- I presumed it was the taxi

           5       driver coming out.

           6   Q.  Yes, but the point is that in your statement you said

           7       that you couldn't actually -- let me get it absolutely

           8       right:

           9           "I did not see the white male get out of the taxi

          10       though."

          11   A.  (Pause)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the statement, on we go.

          13   MR STERN:  CS512, please.  That's what you said in relation

          14       to what happened at point A.  If we look at line 5 of

          15       512, just to bring it into place, you saw:

          16           "I also saw officers on the green at point D.  There

          17       were two officers they were searching the bushes,

          18       I thought they were probably searching for bullets as

          19       they were looking towards the ground and bushes.  These

          20       officers were there the whole time I was watching."

          21           Is that right?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  So we've got officers -- the whole time that you're

          24       watching, there are officers at C, D and E?

          25   A.  Yeah.


                                           162
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Looking just halfway down 512, you say:

           2           "After pausing at point F for a few seconds ..."

           3           Do you remember I mentioned point F to you before,

           4       it's just by the bus stop on the --

           5   A.  Opposite side.

           6   Q.  That's exactly right, opposite side of the road.

           7   A.  Across the road.

           8   Q.  Yes, thank you.  You said that you paused there for

           9       a few seconds, you then crossed over Jarrow Road and

          10       went and stood on the low wall next to -- I won't read

          11       the next bit.

          12           You stood on that wall and that give you a little

          13       bit of height.

          14   A.  Yeah.

          15   Q.  That's, just so we have the location of it, we'll have

          16       to get some photographs and I'm sorry I have not got one

          17       to show you.  But just so we understand where this is,

          18       this is near Erskine Crescent, isn't it?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Is it on the corner of Erskine Crescent there, that

          21       wall, that low wall, just on the corner?

          22   A.  No, it's not on the corner, it's in front of the bus

          23       stop across opposite.

          24   Q.  Yes, all right.  We can see it on this then and I think

          25       I understand where it is and we'll be able to get some


                                           163
 

 

 


           1       photographs of that.  Thank you very much.

           2           You then say:

           3           "At approximately 6.25, I think this was the time as

           4       it was about ten minutes after the two shots ..."

           5           You say:

           6           "... the next thing that stood out to me was

           7       a policeman running towards Tottenham Hale train

           8       station."

           9           Yes?  That's what you've written.

          10   A.  Yeah.

          11   Q.  "I have marked on my sketch point L."

          12           So let's look at point L so we have that.  Except

          13       for the moment I cannot find it.  Yes, I can see it now.

          14       I've got green highlight on it, so that's probably why

          15       I couldn't see it.

          16           You saw -- have you seen it?  Can you see it, "L"?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are looking at point L on the

          19       plan.

          20   MR STERN:  But she has both.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.

          22   MR STERN:  "I have marked on my sketch point L as the first

          23       point I recall seeing this police officer."

          24           Yes?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           164
 

 

 


           1   Q.  What you have written is the first point that you saw

           2       this officer was at point L.

           3   A.  (Pause)

           4   Q.  Yes?

           5   A.  Do you know, I can't -- I can't remember all of this.

           6   Q.  I understand that.  That's why I'm having to take you

           7       back to your statement.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's all been read out to her

           9       already once in court.

          10   MR STERN:  I know.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It may be we might just as well have

          12       the statement available for the jury, it's virtually all

          13       been read out already.

          14   MR STERN:  Possibly but at the moment I'm just -- I'm

          15       content for the jury to have a copy of it, most

          16       certainly.

          17           "I have marked on my sketch point L as the first

          18       point I recall seeing this police officer who I will

          19       call handgun officer.  Handgun officer ran from the

          20       direction of the taxi."

          21           So that person you did not see coming from the taxi,

          22       did you?  Let me make it even clearer: you didn't see

          23       that person in the taxi?

          24   A.  (Pause)

          25           What number are you talking about?  I can't remember


                                           165
 

 

 


           1       any of this.

           2   Q.  Well, I'm talking about L and the one you call -- and

           3       Mr Mansfield read it to you -- the handgun officer, you

           4       call him.  Yes?

           5   A.  Yeah.

           6   Q.  He did not come from the taxi but came from the

           7       direction of the taxi, on your plan; is that right?

           8   A.  I keep saying to you I can't remember all of this.

           9   Q.  If you can't remember, have you any reason to suspect

          10       that your statement is wrong about that, that you saw

          11       him coming from that position?

          12   A.  I can't remember.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's getting a bit late, if you can

          14       get on a little bit.

          15   MR STERN:  I do not think I am going to -- I can probably

          16       finish by 4.30.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's aim towards that.

          18           Miss J, I don't want you to get too tired but if you

          19       just hang in with us for about another ten minutes,

          20       quarter of an hour, hopefully we can conclude your

          21       evidence this afternoon, okay.  So that's what I want to

          22       do.  But if you are feeling too tired to answer these

          23       questions we'll have to have a little break and come

          24       back but hopefully we can crack on and do it.

          25   MR STERN:  I hope I am not taking up more time than is


                                           166
 

 

 


           1       necessary.  But I'm doing what I --

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I understand.

           3   MR STERN:  -- feel that I need to do.  If you need

           4       a break --

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I have already said that to her, so

           6       let's press on.

           7   MR STERN:  Page 1699, please.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  You were asked to mark:

          10           "This is just to help you remember, can you mark

          11       that with a L then.  So that was the first point you saw

          12       this officer with a clear bag.  So when you say you saw

          13       him come out of the taxi at the first point you actually

          14       saw him was coming from the direction of the taxi?

          15           "Answer: Yeah yeah but I didn't actually see him.

          16           "Question: I know but you didn't actually see him

          17       get out of the taxi?

          18           "Answer: No, no, I have just seen him here running

          19       with the forensic bag."

          20           Yes?

          21   A.  Where am I?  (Pause)

          22   Q.  Do you have the passage?

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  She may not.  Give it to her again

          24       Mr Stern --

          25   A.  Yeah, yeah, yeah.


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           1   MR STERN:  You were asked to mark with a L:

           2           "So when you are saying you saw him come out of the

           3       taxi, the first point you actually saw him was coming

           4       from the direction of the taxi?

           5           "Answer: Yeah, yeah but I didn't actually see him.

           6           "Question: I know but you didn't actually see him

           7       get out of the taxi.

           8           "Answer: No, no I've just seen him here running with

           9       a forensic bag ..."

          10           Then over the page:

          11           "... and that just to be clear that wasn't actually

          12       getting out either side of the taxi he was coming from

          13       the direction of the taxi.

          14           "Question: You say 'of the taxi' which is what made

          15       you think he come from the taxi?

          16           "Answer: Yeah."

          17           Is that right?

          18   A.  I can't remember.

          19   Q.  All right.  Now, at this point you have told us that you

          20       were on the wall, or certainly that's what you have put

          21       in your statement, and that's what you said in evidence,

          22       that you were on this wall about 50 metres away, yes?

          23   A.  I said that in my statement, yeah, and as I said at the

          24       beginning of this hearing, right, that I got my location

          25       wrong.  Right, for me to have seen what I saw, right,


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           1       I wasn't at the wall, right, and as I said, right,

           2       through passing -- going to and fro, to and fro, it

           3       jogged my memory and it came to the front of my mind

           4       rather than at the back.

           5   Q.  Yes, I understand that.  What I'm trying to just

           6       hopefully try to finish with, if I can, is this item

           7       that you say was in the flat of the hand of

           8       an individual.

           9   A.  I saw that.  I was on the green near the rails.

          10   Q.  All right.  Let's take it stage by stage.  Do you accept

          11       that you said in your statement that you were on the

          12       wall when you saw this?

          13   A.  I do accept that, because at the time I thought I was on

          14       the wall but, as I said, right, through going and coming

          15       back, I realised that.  I wasn't on the wall when I saw

          16       that happen, right, I was on the grass.

          17   Q.  You have not said that until today, this is the first

          18       time you have said that.

          19   A.  Yes.  I was on the grass the second time.  There's

          20       a picture of me, right, where you can see me either

          21       coming or going from the grass part.

          22   Q.  All right.  We'll look for that.  Can I just ask you

          23       this: you were unable to say what colour this object

          24       was, weren't you?

          25   A.  At the time when they took the statement, I remember


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           1       recalling and telling them what colour it was.  And I

           2       was able to draw it.

           3   Q.  You have drawn a picture, certainly.  But if you look at

           4       1704, you were asked about the gun and you said:

           5           "Don't quote me on it, I don't know if it was --

           6       I don't know what colour it is but I could see that it

           7       was -- I knew -- I knew it was a handgun."

           8           Because you've seen it through TV?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  She's just answered by the time of

          11       her statement she knew the colour.  It's been read out

          12       already to the jury, hasn't it?  We have it written

          13       there in the middle of CS513 it was black or grey in

          14       colour.

          15   MR STERN:  Yes.  But originally --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Originally you said you didn't know the colour -- I'm

          18       coming to that -- did you not?  We have just read it.

          19   A.  I can't remember.  I've just read it though, yeah.

          20   Q.  What about this exhibit bag?  You have said today you

          21       don't remember anything about the bag.

          22   A.  I can't remember anything about the bag but I can

          23       remember seeing the gun being placed -- it was on the

          24       black piece of cloth.

          25   Q.  You see, in your evidence, what you said was, before,


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           1       that there was a gun and you said it was in an exhibit

           2       bag and then the officer put the cloth over it.  That's

           3       what you said before; do you remember that?

           4   A.  I do remember, yeah.

           5   Q.  Yes.  You described the gun as rectangular, a rectangle.

           6   A.  I said I can't remember.  I drew the gun.

           7   Q.  In any event, you said that you saw somebody coming from

           8       the taxi and that person came from the driver's side.

           9       That's what you have told -- what was read to you today?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  I don't know if you can remember that, can you, or not?

          12   A.  Yes, I can remember that.  But it was more to my side.

          13   Q.  What you put --

          14   A.  It was more to my side --

          15   Q.  Sorry --

          16   A.  It was more to my side.  There's no way that I can see

          17       on the right side of the car.

          18   Q.  What do you mean "the right side", sorry?

          19   A.  The officer was on the left side of the car, that's how

          20       I was able to see it.  I can't remember if it -- I can't

          21       remember ...

          22   Q.  In your statement --

          23   A.  Go on.

          24   Q.  -- you said it was at the right hand door at the back on

          25       the driver's side.  You said it was at the back of the


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           1       driver's side.  That's what you said --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  But you didn't see anybody actually open the door?

           4   A.  I can't remember.

           5   Q.  Do you think there's any possibility that you could have

           6       been mistaken about seeing this gun at 50 metres?

           7   A.  No.  There's no way that you can be mistaken seeing

           8       a gun in Tottenham in broad daylight.

           9   Q.  From 50 metres.  I can understand close up, but from

          10       50 metres?

          11   A.  I was on the rails.  I was standing on the green at the

          12       rails.

          13   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Stern.  Yes Mr Keith?

          15   MR KEITH:  No questions.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

          17   MR GLASSON:  No thank you, sir.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?  No one else.

          19       Mr Underwood?

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising out of that, thank you very

          21       much.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, back to me then on the

          23       camera.

          24           Thank you very much then, Miss J.  I have no further

          25       questions for you and neither does anybody else here in


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           1       this court room.  So that concludes your giving

           2       evidence.  Thank you for assisting the jury.  In a

           3       moment we'll be able to press a button somewhere and the

           4       screen and certainly I will disappear.  All right.  So

           5       thank you very much indeed.  Thank you, bye-bye.

           6   A.  All right.

           7                      (The witness withdrew)

           8                           Housekeeping

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's see if we can press a button

          10       and make that disappear.  I have disappeared but we can

          11       still see you actually so please can you remain there

          12       while we ensure the link between the witness room and

          13       this court is finished.  Can we do that?  Can someone

          14       perhaps there cut the link, please?

          15           I think it's all been controlled from the other

          16       place but I do not want to hear them or see them or them

          17       to hear us while we are still in court, that's the

          18       point.  Normally if I was in another court I would press

          19       a button and everyone would go completely black, but

          20       I obviously do not have that power in this court.

          21           What I do have is the power, in this particular

          22       court room, where I have this very nice air conditioning

          23       vent here which keeps me bright and wide awake while

          24       everyone else is getting warm down in the body of the

          25       court.  So I apologise that from time to time this court


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           1       room has seemed rather warm today.  No doubt next week,

           2       if the weather changes, then we'll get cooler and then

           3       it will be a bit more wide awake.

           4           I hope something inappropriate does not happen on

           5       the screen.  So I think before we do anything more

           6       I think I should thank you very much, members of the

           7       jury.

           8           I have received some notes from you.  I'll deal with

           9       that and get back to you, we are not ignoring your notes

          10       at all.  So that will be fine.

          11           Please, as I say, we have a very long break now

          12       through to Monday afternoon at 2 o'clock.  But next week

          13       we will be sitting Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

          14       Monday afternoon on through to the end of Thursday.

          15       Thank you all very much indeed.  If you would like to

          16       leave us now.


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          18   (4.27 pm)

          19          (The court adjourned until 2.00 pm on Monday,

          20                         21 October 2013)

          21
               DEPUTY ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER MARTIN .................1
          22             HEWITT (affirmed)

          23       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................2

          24       Questions by MR MANSFIELD .......................27

          25       Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................64

 

                                           175
 


           1       Questions by MR BUTT ............................70

           2       Questions by MR KEITH. ..........................77

           3       Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ............88

           4       Further questions by MR KEITH ...................92

           5   MISS J (sworn) ......................................98

           6       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................99

           7       Questions by MR MANSFIELD ......................109

           8       Questions by MR THOMAS  ........................124

           9       Questions by MR STERN ..........................127

          10   Housekeeping .......................................173

          11

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          19

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          21

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