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10 November 2010 - Afternoon session

14 (2.00 pm)
16 MR KEITH: My Lady, the next witness joins us from
17 Manchester by videolink.
18 Good afternoon. Are you Stuart Bullen?
20 MR KEITH: Thank you very much for joining us, Mr Bullen.
21 I'm going to ask that the oath or the affirmation be
22 given to you and there should be a member of the
23 Secretariat to assist you.


1 MR STUART BULLEN (affirmed)
2 (Evidence given by videolink)
3 Questions by MR KEITH
4 MR KEITH: Thank you very much. Could you, just for the
5 record, give the court your full name in your own words?
6 A. Stuart Bullen.
7 Q. I've got some questions to ask you, if I may, about
8 Thursday, 7 July 2005. But I don't think that we need
9 detain you for very long.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. We understand that that morning you were travelling to
12 Victoria where you were working on a site and you were
13 travelling from Sussex Gardens with a colleague who was
14 working on the site with you, Daniel Belsten, Danny?
15 A. Yes, yes, that's true.
16 Q. I think you bought tickets to Victoria at Edgware Road
17 station, and you were going to travel round to Victoria
18 on the Circle Line?
19 A. Yes, that's true.
20 Q. You, according to your police witness statement, missed
21 the first train, or just missed a train, and then you
22 waited for about ten minutes or so for the next train.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When the next train came, do you remember which carriage
25 you entered?


1 A. It was the second carriage.
2 Q. The carriage with the bomb?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. When you walked into the carriage, do you remember
5 whether you turned left or right?
6 A. I turned right.
7 Q. Did you sit at the end?
8 A. Yes, I sat right in the corner, next to the wall.
9 Q. You should have some documents with you, Mr Bullen. One
10 of them is called "Probable positions of passengers" [INQ10282-8] .
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That's the one. You'll see in the top left-hand corner
13 a number 1 on the map itself .
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was that where you sat?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. We can see your name underneath in the list of
18 passengers, "Stuart Bullen"?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did your friend, Danny, or your colleague, Danny, sit
21 next to you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us, please, what you remember of the actual
24 explosion?
25 A. The explosion?


1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I don't remember much. I was just sat there reading
3 a paper and, the next thing I knew, I couldn't -- I had
4 ringing in my ears and I had been thrown back on the
5 seat, just I couldn't move and it felt like I was
6 electrocuted, and as I come round, there's just all
7 smoke and dust and everyone panicking everywhere.
8 Q. Which part of your body couldn't you move?
9 A. Well, there was -- I was, like, stuck back into my
10 chair, and I struggled moving forwards, you know,
11 because I think I was being electrocuted on the side of
12 the train, I think, I'm not too sure, the way -- as the
13 blast hit me, I had been threw back and I couldn't lean
14 forward sort of thing.
15 Q. How long do you think that sensation of being
16 electrocuted lasted?
17 A. Only slightly, just instantly. I come round.
18 Q. When you came round and the sensation stopped and the
19 noise went away, could you see what had happened to your
20 colleague, Danny?
21 A. Yes, well, I couldn't actually see him, I could feel
22 him, he'd been threw across me and there was a door on
23 top of us as well.
24 Q. Who was the door on top of?
25 A. Well, it was on -- it was in, like -- just above Danny,


1 near Danny, like, he was across me, and then the door
2 was, like, over my leg sort of thing.
3 Q. Do you remember anybody saying anything like, "Is
4 everybody all right?", or did anybody call out?
5 A. Yes, there was a couple of people saying, "Is everyone
6 all right?" I was shouting as well, "Is everyone okay?
7 What's happened?".
8 Q. Were you able to move the doors off Danny?
9 A. Eventually, yes, because I squeezed myself out, and then
10 helped -- obviously helped -- someone's helped me pick
11 it up as well, because they've come from the first
12 carriage.
13 Q. All right. I'm going to take that in stages, if I may.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you became aware of where you were and in the
16 immediate aftermath, did you try to move the doors off
17 Danny on your own?
18 A. Well, yes, because -- but I couldn't obviously,
19 I struggled a bit.
20 Q. Because they were too heavy?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In what state was Danny? Was he screaming?
23 A. Well, yes, because he was in pain.
24 Q. When you tried to move the door, did he scream out
25 saying, 'Don't, it's hurting me more"?


1 A. I can't remember, to be honest.
2 Q. All right. So you couldn't move the doors yourself, but
3 somebody appeared from the next door carriage, did they?
4 A. Yes, and they've, like, lifted the door as well.
5 Q. Together, did you move the door off Danny?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. By that stage, was it still very dark in the carriage?
8 A. Yes, fairly dark, it was only light from the opposite
9 train that was lighting the area up.
10 Q. How far could you see down the carriage?
11 A. Not that far, to be honest. Just around me, just nearby
12 sort of thing.
13 Q. In the area round the first set of double doors?
14 A. Yes, like, I could see the people opposite me and, like,
15 there was a couple of people stood up, and then
16 I noticed there was a lady already on the floor, and
17 someone was trying to resuscitate her.
18 Q. Looking back at the diagram that you've just been shown,
19 can you tell us, please, where you remember the lady
20 being?
21 A. Well, it was in between the -- where the double doors
22 are, it was laid on the floor, like, just -- not just in
23 the middle of the -- where the two barriers are, just
24 a little bit further out.
25 Q. Towards -- can you see at the top double door D1, and


1 written underneath "double door D2"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was she in the middle?
4 A. Yes, she was more towards the D1.
5 Q. More towards D1?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was she moving, can you remember?
8 A. She was actually -- no, she wasn't moving. Someone said
9 "She is breathing" or "She is" -- no, "She's not
10 breathing", I think, yes.
11 Q. Do you remember who said that?
12 A. It was -- there was a lady helping her, there was a lady
13 stood there over her, and then she said, no, she's not
14 breathing, so she tried to resuscitate her, you know,
15 give her compressions on the chest.
16 Q. In your statement, you describe how, a little bit later,
17 there is a man wearing a white shirt who crouches down
18 alongside the lady and tries to resuscitate her.
19 A. Yes, that's -- I'm getting confused a bit, it's that
20 long ago.
21 Q. I quite understand. Are you sure that the first person
22 you saw, the lady who was helping the young lady on the
23 floor, resuscitated her, or was it just the second
24 person, the man, who attempted to resuscitate her?
25 A. I can't remember. If I said a man down here, it was


1 nearer the time, but, I don't know. I can't remember,
2 to be honest.
3 Q. That's quite all right. When you saw the woman
4 crouching down or lying next to the young lady on the
5 floor, do you recollect for how long she was there
6 alongside her?
7 A. Only a few minutes, not -- less than five minutes, I'd
8 say.
9 Q. Do you think it was her who called out, "She's stopped
10 breathing"?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When the man came along, who in your statement you
13 describe as carrying out resuscitation as well, how long
14 was he with the young lady on the floor?
15 A. I can't remember, to be honest. It wasn't that long
16 really.
17 Q. Do you remember whether he pushed on the young lady's
18 chest by way of chest compressions and gave
19 mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, or one or the other?
20 A. I think it was just trying to -- I can't remember,
21 I just can't remember.
22 Q. That's quite all right. Let me ask you about something
23 else, please.
24 A. Yes, sure.
25 Q. Do you recollect anybody else lying on the floor of the


1 carriage in between the double doors D1 and D2?
2 A. Well, I think, yes, I think so. I do remember someone
3 being in the corner as I've moved round.
4 Q. Which corner?
5 A. Like, near the D1 corner, the corner of where the --
6 where the barriers should have been.
7 Q. Is that someone moving?
8 A. No, no, there was no movement.
9 Q. Could you see any signs of life from that person?
10 A. No, it was just -- it just felt warm.
11 Q. Do you know that, Mr Bullen, because you attempted to
12 feel them and to find out whether or not they were
13 alive?
14 A. Yes, because I bumped into something, and I've just felt
15 it was warm, it was a bit -- it weren't like a bag or
16 anything, it was just -- I don't know, I just --
17 everything was a bit of a blur at the time.
18 Q. Of course. After the man had tried to resuscitate the
19 lady on the floor, could you see whether she moved at
20 all or showed any signs of life?
21 A. I don't think so, I don't think there was any signs of
22 life there.
23 Q. Was anything said, do you recollect the man saying
24 anything?
25 A. No, I don't remember.


1 Q. Do you remember what happened next?
2 A. No, I can't, honestly. My head's gone blank.
3 Q. All right. I just have one or two further questions for
4 you. Do you remember walking off the train with your
5 colleague Danny?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was he injured?
8 A. Yes, he said the side of his face was hurting and he had
9 bits of shrapnel in his legs and on his face -- the side
10 of his face as well, bits of glass.
11 Q. Before you walked off the train with him, do you
12 remember anybody in uniform coming up or down the
13 carriage telling you that you were going to be all
14 right?
15 A. Yes, there was people from, like -- is it Railtrack who
16 do it, or whoever take charge of the Underground
17 systems? There was people there, part of that, they
18 were reassuring people.
19 Q. Was that because you remember something about their
20 uniform that made you think it was something to do with
21 London Underground?
22 A. Yes, it looked like -- well, there was like the
23 conductor or whatever, or the driver, you know the
24 uniforms they wear, it was one of their uniforms I've
25 seen.


1 Q. We know that, when you came off the train, off the
2 carriage, Mr Bullen, there were some London Underground
3 gentlemen helping you at the end of the carriage to get
4 down onto the track.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember seeing any London Underground staff or
7 anybody in uniform before then?
8 A. I just seen --
9 Q. If you can't remember, don't worry.
10 A. Yes, I'm just trying to think. I think they was saying,
11 if you're immediately injured or if you can't walk or
12 anything like that, I think there was someone there
13 saying come this way, and we'll get you out
14 straightaway, sort of thing.
15 Q. Thank you, because in your statement, which, of course,
16 you prepared much nearer the time, in fact a week after
17 7/7, you make reference to the fact that, when you were
18 still in the carriage and before you and Danny left,
19 a man wearing Underground uniform walked past you and
20 was asking people if they were all right. Is that the
21 person you've just referred to?
22 A. Yes, yes, yes. It will be.
23 Q. Do you remember anything about his uniform in
24 particular? Are you sure it was a London Underground
25 member of staff as opposed to a police officer, say?


1 A. Yes, I've noticed the difference between them, I know
2 a police uniform, it wasn't a police uniform.
3 Q. All right. When you came off the train, do you remember
4 any other members of the emergency services being
5 present, other than, of course, the London Underground
6 staff whom you've already mentioned?
7 A. I think I've seen firemen round and about and bits,
8 in -- yes, I've seen firemen, definitely firemen.
9 Q. You walked back to Edgware Road station down the gap
10 between the tunnel wall and the carriage?
11 A. Yes, yes. That's correct.
12 Q. You, therefore, had to go back past the bombed carriage,
13 didn't you?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. When you walked past, do you remember anybody in uniform
16 being inside the carriage?
17 A. I think I've seen some high-vis jackets, some yellow
18 high visibility, so that could be police or it could be
19 anybody really, couldn't it?
20 Q. Were they in the carriage or were they on the track?
21 A. I think there was some in the carriage and, obviously,
22 I could see -- but, like, there was -- there were just
23 high-vis jackets everywhere, that's all I remember.
24 Q. All right. Then I think you were taken up to the ground
25 level and you went to Marks & Spencers which had been


1 converted into a medical centre?
2 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Some medics took your friend Danny away to treat him.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you checked over by anybody?
6 A. Yes, they were just asking if I was all right.
7 Obviously, I couldn't hear much because of the
8 explosion, so, yes, I was fine, I was just a bit shocked
9 obviously and, yes, they asked me questions if I was all
10 right, any injuries, anything like that, so, yes, I was.
11 Q. I think your ear drums had been perforated, hadn't they?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 MR KEITH: Mr Bullen, I have no more questions to ask you,
14 but don't go away just yet because there may be some
15 other questions from other barristers in the room.
16 A. Okay.
18 Questions by MR SAUNDERS
19 MR SAUNDERS: Mr Bullen, I only have a few questions to ask
20 you.
21 After the explosion, it would be right, wouldn't it,
22 that what you were doing was concentrating on Danny?
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. Partly because of the door that had come on top of you
25 both, but also because you thought Danny was hurt from


1 what he was saying to you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please don't think in any way I'm being critical,
4 Mr Bullen, when I make my next suggestion. All right?
5 You obviously saw a lady tending to another lady on the
6 floor.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can I tell -- I hope it helps you, this, Mr Bullen --
9 that we, the coroner and all the lawyers have seen very
10 many statements here, and we've also heard quite a bit
11 of the evidence, but it appears that that lady who was
12 injured herself, Elizabeth Owen, stayed next to the lady
13 that was unconscious for a considerable period of time.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. All right? And we do not believe that she tried to
16 resuscitate. All right?
17 A. Okay. Right, okay.
18 Q. But she was clearly there when the gentleman you've
19 described as trying resuscitation arrived.
20 All right?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. So what it appears, Mr Bullen, is that, in fact, it was
23 the man, who we know as Mr Hucklesby, who was trying to
24 revive the lady that was unconscious. All right?
25 A. Yes, okay, yes.


1 Q. I appreciate this is very, very difficult, but is that
2 likely; that the lady you saw was, in fact, beside the
3 lady on the ground, and that she was comforting rather
4 than trying to resuscitate?
5 A. Yes, that sounds a bit -- yes, that sounds correct,
6 that.
7 Q. One quite understands how confusing this whole scene
8 must have been, because there wasn't very much light,
9 I don't think, was there?
10 A. No, yes, that's true.
11 Q. What you then see is the man who tried the
12 resuscitation, we understand -- and we're going to hear
13 from him next, Mr Bullen -- went and tried to help the
14 man who was sitting across from you in the carriage?
15 A. Yes, because his leg was bleeding.
16 Q. That's quite right, his leg was bleeding very badly, and
17 people were trying to use a tourniquet with various
18 items of clothing to stop the blood.
19 A. Yes, I do remember that, yes.
20 MR SAUNDERS: Mr Bullen, many thanks for your help, and of
21 course, we all understand how long ago this is and how
22 difficult it is to recollect clearly. Thank you very
23 much for your help.
24 A. Okay.
25 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Are there any other questions for


1 Mr Bullen?
2 Mr Bullen, there are no more questions for you.
3 Thank you very much for doing your best to help us.
4 I do understand how difficult it is. I suspect, like
5 many other people, you've tried to wipe things from your
6 memory, and I would far rather you said "I can't
7 remember", than trying to invent something. So thank
8 you for doing your very best and thank you for joining
9 us.
10 A. Okay, thank you.
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you, Mr Bullen.
12 Mr Keith?
13 MR KEITH: My Lady, may I invite you to call
14 Steve Hucklesby?
16 Questions by MR KEITH
17 MR KEITH: Good afternoon. Could you give the court your
18 full name, please?
19 A. My name is Stephen Lawrence Chard Hucklesby.
20 Q. Mr Hucklesby, during the course of your evidence, could
21 I ask you to do your utmost to try to keep your voice up
22 and as loud as you can? The microphone in front of you
23 in fact doesn't amplify your voice, it merely relays it
24 to an annex.
25 A. Okay.


1 Q. So it won't assist you. So I need to rely upon to you
2 keep your voice as loud as you can.
3 On Thursday, 7 July, I understand from your witness
4 statement that you were attempting to catch a train to
5 Reading, and you went to your local station and you
6 changed trains at Reading and then got on a train to
7 Paddington.
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. At Paddington, you went down to the London Underground
10 network and you took a Circle Line going eastbound.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. I needn't trouble you with a description of where you
13 were in your train, but after it left the station to go
14 towards Edgware Road, do you recollect a jolt or a bang
15 or an explosion of some sort occurring?
16 A. Yes, there was a loud bang and a jolt, and the train
17 quickly came to a stop.
18 Q. Did the lights in your carriage on that train stay on?
19 A. They remained on.
20 Q. What was the effect of the jolt and the bang and the
21 coming to a halt of the train on the passengers around
22 you?
23 A. Much alarm. Fairly quickly, the carriage started to
24 fill with smoke and so there was some confusion as to
25 what was going on and where the smoke was coming from.


1 Q. Was it possible to see where the smoke was, in fact,
2 coming from?
3 A. It wasn't, no. My concern was whether there was a fire
4 somewhere.
5 Q. Because of the smoke, did the passengers in your
6 carriage try to get out of the carriage?
7 A. They didn't at that stage, no. After I'm not sure how
8 long, at some point fairly soon, there was a tannoy
9 message on our train telling passengers to remain calm
10 and remain where they were.
11 Q. Did that have some effect?
12 A. It did, yes.
13 Q. Can you recall how long after the jolt or the bang that
14 the tannoy announcement took place?
15 A. I would say it was one to two minutes.
16 Q. During this time, were you looking around to other
17 carriages or around your own carriage to see where the
18 smoke was less?
19 A. I was, yes.
20 Q. Could you see anything outside your train?
21 A. The bombed carriage stopped next to our carriage. We
22 couldn't see into that carriage very easily, because, of
23 course, the lights were on on our train and they were
24 off on the other train. Therefore, you have the
25 reflection from windows and it's just complete darkness.


1 Q. Could you hear anything from the other train?
2 A. We could hear screams and cries for help.
3 Q. Was anybody in your carriage trying to open any of the
4 doors on your train or move out to other carriages?
5 A. We were trying to open the doors, yes, for two reasons:
6 one, to try to ventilate the carriage a bit; and,
7 secondly, to see if we could get access to the other
8 train.
9 Q. May we take it from that that it was plain that they
10 were trying to help, and they were trying to get through
11 to help other people in the other train?
12 A. Yes, it was -- for me, at least, a couple of minutes at
13 least before I realised that the situation on the other
14 train was very different to that on our own, even though
15 we had heard cries and screams.
16 Q. How did you begin to realise?
17 A. It was most obvious when a -- when, in forcing the doors
18 open, a passenger who was injured from the other train
19 attempted to squeeze through the gaps to get into our
20 train. He was very severely bloodied and his clothes in
21 rags, and appealing to us for help.
22 Q. And extremely distressed?
23 A. Indeed.
24 Q. Was he able to get through the gap in the door into your
25 carriage?


1 A. He wasn't, no. It wasn't wide enough. I --
2 Q. Did you see where he went?
3 A. He went back into the other carriage, but I wouldn't
4 know where. I and others tried to see how far the doors
5 would go, but they got to about 15 centimetres and it
6 was clear that they weren't going to open any further
7 than that.
8 Q. What effect did the appearance of the man on the outside
9 of the carriage doors have on the passengers in your
10 carriage?
11 A. It shocked me greatly.
12 Q. When it became apparent that the doors wouldn't open
13 further than that small gap, did anybody try to smash
14 any of the windows in the carriage?
15 A. We did. Two people said, "Let's smash a window and see
16 if we can get into that carriage", and they found some
17 large wooden implements, and together smashed the
18 window.
19 Q. Did the whole window break? Were they able to smash the
20 entirety of the glass frame?
21 A. They were. They, first of all, put the doors open and
22 they shouted --
23 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I'm terribly sorry to interrupt,
24 I wonder if you could speak up? I know it's really
25 difficult, but I've just had a message.


1 A. Sorry. They, first of all, shouted through to the other
2 carriage for people to stand back because they were
3 going to break the window. They then broke the window.
4 MR KEITH: Do you now know the names of the people who
5 smashed the window or not?
6 A. I know that Peter Zimonjic -- I think I've not
7 pronounced the surname correctly --
8 Q. Don't worry.
9 A. -- was involved in some way in that. He is the only
10 person that, since, I have met.
11 Q. Once the glass was smashed, how come you came to go
12 through the open window?
13 A. When they started talking about getting access to the
14 other train, because I had had first aid training, I was
15 convinced from that point that I would go through.
16 Q. May I ask you, how much first aid training had you had
17 and how recently had you had it prior to 7/7?
18 A. I think it was in 2003 and it was a one-day course.
19 Q. Despite the fact that it had, therefore, been some time
20 before, you didn't hesitate to volunteer yourself to go
21 through and do what you could?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Did anybody else come forward?
24 A. There were four people went through the window.
25 Actually, at the time, I was only aware of three.


1 Q. Do you now know the names of the people who went through
2 the window as well?
3 A. From -- not really, no.
4 Q. If you don't know, don't worry.
5 A. No.
6 Q. We obviously have other evidence which tends to suggest
7 that there are three other gentlemen whom I can name,
8 but I want to ask you first.
9 A. I don't have any personal knowledge of the name.
10 Obviously there's media reports, but I wouldn't want to
11 try to repeat those, in case I get it wrong.
12 Q. All right. If you would look, please, at a diagram,
13 [INQ10282-10] , you will see there a diagram showing the
14 position of both trains after they had come to a halt.
15 The bombed carriage is the second carriage on the
16 westbound train, and, therefore, you must have entered
17 from what we can see is the third carriage on the
18 eastbound train.
19 If you could go back, please, one page, to page 9,
20 there is an enlarged picture of the second carriage, the
21 bombed carriage, on the westbound train and the red
22 cross indicates the location of the bomb.
23 When you came through from your train on to the
24 bombed carriage, do you recollect which double doors,
25 which of course had been blown open, you came through?


1 A. It would have been double doors D3.
2 Q. So one door from the end?
3 A. I believe so, yes.
4 Q. Did your fellow passengers, who also came through the
5 smashed window, come through the same door, blown open
6 door, into the bombed carriage?
7 A. They did, yes. As far as I know, there was only one
8 window broken.
9 Q. How far apart were the trains? How big was the gap?
10 A. Very small. Less -- I would say about half a metre.
11 Q. Could you describe for us, please, the scene that
12 confronted you?
13 A. The first thing I saw was a very large crater in which
14 there was one person trapped in the wreckage of the
15 crater, and I believe three people crouching at the edge
16 of the crater trying to deal with this person. One
17 person of the three then went into the hole to try and
18 assist the person. I believe there may have been
19 another person in the hole standing on the tracks.
20 The person who was injured appeared to me at the
21 time to be losing consciousness.
22 Q. What was it about his appearance that led you to believe
23 that he was beginning to lose consciousness?
24 A. His eyes were closing and his head was slumping
25 forwards.


1 Q. We take it from that that you were able to see his head.
2 How much more of his body could you see? How much was
3 visible inside the crater from where you were?
4 A. Really only to his chest.
5 Q. When it appeared to you that he was beginning to lose
6 consciousness, was anything done by the men around him
7 to try to aid him further than that which they were
8 already doing?
9 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you because I saw that scene
10 only for a few seconds.
11 Q. You didn't stay, therefore, where you were at the
12 entrance point to the carriage. Where did you go?
13 A. I went forward.
14 Q. That is to say on this diagram towards the left-hand
15 side?
16 A. Correct, yes.
17 Q. How did you get past the crater left by the bomb?
18 A. I used the rails above because the debris was quite
19 a large pile of debris, it was very loose, I wasn't sure
20 what was underneath it. It would have been difficult to
21 try to cross and step over it, so while that was an
22 option, I felt it was simply easier to use the rails
23 above, and I went hand over hand.
24 Q. Could you see anybody else lying on the floor of the
25 carriage in the door area, or the standing area,


1 adjacent to double door D3 through which you entered?
2 A. Yes, there was the body of a female at the foot -- at
3 the point where I entered. Her legs were severed,
4 missing from the thigh down, and most of her upper torso
5 was covered underneath debris.
6 Q. Mr Hucklesby, from the evidence which my Lady has heard,
7 it does seem, indeed, that there were two bodies lying
8 in that particular area, certainly within the standing
9 area adjacent to double doors D3, but both were male.
10 Is it possible that on account of the darkness, the
11 debris and, frankly, the sheer horror of the scene that
12 confronted you, you might have been mistaken as to
13 whether or not the person was male or female?
14 A. I would say it's possible. The image is not as fresh in
15 my mind now as when I gave my witness statement.
16 I believed it was a female from the general shape of the
17 hips and, of course, the clothing had been blown away
18 apart from underwear, as had been the case with many
19 people who were very close to the explosion.
20 Q. I'm sorry to press you. Was there anything about the
21 underwear that led you to believe that this was the body
22 of a female as opposed to a male?
23 A. Again, I don't have the image in my mind now as vividly
24 as it was five years ago.
25 Q. Of course.


1 A. But my impression at the time was that it was a female.
2 Q. From what you've told us, you didn't stay very long in
3 that particular area?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So whatever view you had of this person was necessarily
6 a fleeting one?
7 A. It was brief.
8 Q. Did you see a second person in the area of that double
9 door?
10 A. I didn't. I saw parts of bodies.
11 Q. Having negotiated round the crater by use of the
12 overhead poles, handrails, where did you go?
13 A. I arrived in the area between -- I think what I've
14 marked seats 3 and 30.
15 Q. Was there anybody lying on the carriage floor in front
16 of you?
17 A. There were two people lying on the carriage floor in
18 front of me and a number of other people in the area.
19 Q. Were the other people in the area behind the two bodies,
20 that is to say further down towards the end of the
21 carriage adjacent to the seats 1, 2, 32, 31?
22 A. They were I think, yes, behind and by the side. One of
23 the bodies was in the area of seat 31. The other body
24 was in the area of double door D1.
25 Q. Can you recollect anything of the person who was -- the


1 body that was next to seat 31?
2 A. I had the impression at the time that it was the --
3 a body of a male. Again, the upper part of the torso
4 was covered by debris or a door or something. The leg
5 was missing from around about the calf down, I think on
6 the right leg. There was no bleeding from the wound,
7 just a single drop of blood. It gave me the impression
8 that this person maybe didn't have circulation,
9 although, of course, I have no medical knowledge to
10 judge that.
11 Q. Can you recollect anything of the clothing of that
12 person?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you approach him and take any steps to see whether
15 there was any sign of life?
16 A. I did not.
17 Q. There was nothing apparent to you, though, to indicate
18 that there was?
19 A. No. Quite the opposite.
20 Q. Because of the lack of movement?
21 A. Lack of movement and --
22 Q. And the nature of the injuries?
23 A. -- lack of bleeding.
24 Q. The lack of bleeding. What about the second body that
25 you saw in that area? Where was that person?


1 A. The -- that person, as I say, was in the area of double
2 doors D1, I believe towards -- as we're looking at this
3 diagram, the right-hand side of that area.
4 Q. Towards seat 3?
5 A. I believe so, yes.
6 Q. Tell us, please, what you can recall of her.
7 A. It was a body of a young woman. The body was very, very
8 pale. Most of the clothing had been blown off. The --
9 she was motionless. Her eyes were open. Jaw was open
10 and relaxed. I then examined her more closely.
11 Q. When you say her eyes were open, were they moving, can
12 you recollect?
13 A. They were not moving, and I placed my head very close to
14 hers to try to get a response. I examined her left eye
15 and I could see no movement from the pupil, although
16 I didn't block out any light, but there was no movement
17 from her pupil.
18 Q. I appreciate it's extremely difficult, both because of
19 the lapse of time and the circumstances in which you
20 found yourself, to give an accurate answer, but can you
21 help us with how much time you think had elapsed by this
22 stage from the point of the explosion?
23 A. This, I believe, would have been about four or five
24 minutes with most of that time having been spent in the
25 other train.


1 Q. We've heard evidence, Mr Hucklesby, not least from the
2 lady herself, of a lady crouching next to the young lady
3 on the floor, Laura Webb, and evidence to the effect
4 that she had already ascertained that her breathing had
5 stopped, Laura's breathing had stopped, and she called
6 out for help, "Can anybody help?", and called out also
7 that she'd stopped breathing.
8 Do you recollect there being another lady near you,
9 in the near vicinity of Laura Webb, the young lady on
10 the carriage floor?
11 A. Not at the moment, not at this point, mainly because
12 I had been called to the area by a man who had been
13 standing by seat 3. He had said, "We need first aid
14 over here". This is at the point when I had first come
15 through, so I was in the areas at the time of door D3.
16 When I came through, he was the person I was most
17 conscious of.
18 Q. Is it possible that there was somebody else there --
19 A. It's quite possible that there was someone else there.
20 Q. -- not least because, of course, there were other people
21 further beyond Laura Webb in the near vicinity of seats
22 1, 2, 32 and 31?
23 A. Indeed, there were quite a few people in the area.
24 Q. You've told us that you gained no response from her,
25 having put your head very close to hers. What did you


1 try to do next?
2 A. I then put my hand to her nose and mouth to try to
3 detect if there was breathing. I think I may have done
4 the same with my cheek to detect breathing. I couldn't
5 detect any breathing.
6 Q. Then what you did you attempt to do?
7 A. I then attempted to provide CPR. There were four women
8 in the train from which I had come who were looking at
9 the scene through the window. I think it's quite
10 probable that this girl on the floor would have been the
11 only people they may have been able to see within the
12 train. One of them clearly was a first aider and
13 encouraging me to provide CPR, which was my intention
14 anyway.
15 Q. You started to apply CPR. Were they then shouting to
16 you whilst you were doing so, exhorting you and trying
17 to give you instructions as to how it was to be done?
18 A. They were. Initially, I was attempting to provide
19 rescue breaths but I had forgotten to tilt the jaw
20 upwards.
21 Q. To open the airway?
22 A. To open the airway. When I first attempted that,
23 I didn't achieve an airway. They said tilt the head
24 upwards, I did that. I then gave a breath and it was
25 quite different and the lungs inflated very easily and


1 cleanly.
2 Q. Did you attempt a number of resuscitations
3 mouth-to-mouth?
4 A. I think I did three rounds of two breaths and 15
5 compressions.
6 Q. Did you conclude, however, that no resuscitation was
7 possible?
8 A. I was fairly certain while doing it, I couldn't imagine
9 anyone managing to shock this person back to life.
10 However, the decision to stop was, in fact, taken out of
11 my hands because, in applying two rescue breaths, the
12 mouth and throat and nose area filled with blood and
13 I was then blowing blood -- air through blood, and
14 oxygen and blood into the lungs. It was quite clear at
15 that point that, very sadly, nothing more could be done,
16 at least it was clear to me.
17 Q. You say in your statement how, around that time, when
18 you began to appreciate or you did appreciate that no
19 resuscitation was possible and the lady was dead, that
20 a member of Underground staff appeared. Was that then
21 or was that later?
22 A. It was just shortly afterwards. What happened is I then
23 stood up and the person who was next to me asked me
24 "Does she have a pulse?", and I said "No, she doesn't
25 have a pulse", on the basis that she wasn't breathing


1 and in these circumstances, therefore, wouldn't have
2 a pulse. I said, "I'm sorry, she doesn't have a pulse".
3 At that point, the girls on the other train were
4 quite distressed. For them, that was a point at which
5 hope had been extinguished.
6 It was then that I heard a member of
7 London Underground staff calling to the carriage.
8 Q. Did he call in from outside?
9 A. He did.
10 Q. Do you remember what he called?
11 A. Something along the lines of, "Are you okay in there?"
12 Q. Was there a response?
13 A. I went to him and I said that "We need urgent medical
14 assistance". He responded "The Control know about it,
15 but the emergency services are currently responding to
16 another incident in Aldgate". I asked him, "Do they
17 know the severity of this incident?", and he said, "Yes,
18 sir, they do".
19 Q. It may seem obvious. Was it because of the other
20 severely injured people in the carriage that you told
21 him that you needed immediate medical assistance?
22 A. It was because of the general scene.
23 Q. Yes. Did he leave?
24 A. He did, yes. Quite quickly, actually.
25 Q. Do you know whether he went on to the other -- he


1 wouldn't have got on to the other carriage, but did he
2 go down the track away from the bombed carriage on the
3 second train?
4 A. He left in the direction of Edgware Road. He was in the
5 area between the train and the wall when we had this
6 conversation.
7 Q. Did you see any other members of London Underground
8 staff or any other members of the emergency services at
9 this time?
10 A. Not at this time.
11 Q. Turning then to the people who were at the end of the
12 carriage on the other side of the young lady,
13 Laura Webb, did you then attend to the people there?
14 A. I did. I attended to a young man who I now know as
15 Matt.
16 Q. Did he have a number of severe injuries, in particular
17 to his lower leg and right leg and foot?
18 A. He did, yes. The injury to his ankle, lower, on the
19 right leg was the most obvious. It was quite badly
20 mashed.
21 Q. Was there anything on his leg when you saw him? Had any
22 sort of bandage or rudimentary tourniquet been applied?
23 A. A tourniquet had been put on his leg.
24 Q. What did you do?
25 A. Matt was standing at the time on his left leg, but in


1 quite considerable pain. His left calf also had quite
2 a significant injury. The difficulty I think had been
3 that there was no space anywhere around for him to be
4 placed on the floor, so I therefore decided to get him
5 to the area between the two carriages and I told him to
6 put his arm round me and put his weight on me and to
7 take one big swing to get there, which he did.
8 Q. Did you there find a space in which to lie him?
9 A. There was a space there, yes.
10 Q. What were you able to do for him by way of his injured
11 leg and to ensure that there was -- the flow of blood or
12 the loss of blood was suspended?
13 A. I lifted his leg so that -- with my arm, and I held his
14 leg there for some time. He was also experiencing some
15 pain from his chest, but his breathing was -- seemed to
16 be quite normal, so I was more concerned about the loss
17 of blood.
18 Q. You say for some time. Can you give us any estimate as
19 to how long you stayed there holding his leg suspended
20 in the air?
21 A. I believe it would have been for about 30 minutes.
22 Q. During this time, were you able to see back through the
23 interconnecting door to the second carriage?
24 A. I could, only down the centre of the carriage, yes.
25 Q. Do you recall the emergency services or any paramedics


1 arriving in the carriage during this time?
2 A. The first person who arrived was a member of
3 London Underground staff. They said that "Medical help
4 is on its way, they will be here soon". I got the
5 impression that people were beginning to form upstairs.
6 This would have been at about 15 minutes, I would guess,
7 after --
8 Q. After you took Mr Childs through to the next carriage?
9 A. Yes. I can't be precise on that. It could have been
10 longer. But it was, I would guess, at least 15 minutes.
11 Q. How long after that gentleman had appeared do you
12 recollect there being either a doctor or a paramedic
13 appear?
14 A. It would have been at least 15 minutes after that. The
15 gentleman -- after about five or ten minutes after that,
16 a member of London Underground staff appeared again. He
17 had been up and down and had come back with a bottle of
18 water, which I then realised later had come from
19 Marks & Spencers, because they had a stack of them
20 there. He said, "I've got some water". He was clearly
21 trying to do everything he could. I said, "Thank you
22 very much, but it's not water we need, we need urgent
23 medical assistance".
24 Q. Was there a response?
25 A. He ran back down through the carriage number 1. He ran


1 so fast he tripped in a hole in the floor.
2 Q. And fell?
3 A. Stumbled, but didn't fall, I think.
4 Q. When do you recollect the first doctor or paramedic to
5 have appeared?
6 A. I believe it would have been 5 to 10 minutes after that.
7 Q. Was that, in fact, a female doctor who approached from
8 the front of the train?
9 A. That's correct, yes.
10 Q. Did she come and carry out an initial assessment of
11 Mr Childs?
12 A. Yes, it was a brief assessment. A broken ankle and she
13 was concerned, also, about his breathing.
14 Q. Did she do anything?
15 A. Not at that stage, no.
16 Q. Having carried out that assessment, she moved on?
17 A. She then moved on to assess others.
18 Q. You remained with Mr Childs throughout this?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long after that did he come to be moved?
21 A. It was a long period of time. I guess it would have
22 maybe been five minutes after that, but I can't be sure
23 about that five minutes.
24 Q. This was all within the half an hour that you think that
25 you were holding --


1 A. This is now after the half an hour because this is after
2 the emergency services have arrived. They were
3 obviously having to prioritise whom they dealt with. At
4 some stage, though, after that, they were able to attend
5 to Matt, putting up a drip for Matt. Once they started
6 tending to him, I got out of their way.
7 Q. Did you go and help with somebody else?
8 A. I then helped with various other casualties under the
9 direction of the emergency services, the doctors.
10 Q. Do you remember the name of one of the casualties that
11 you then began to tend for?
12 A. Elizabeth Owen.
13 Q. Was she back in the second carriage?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is that where you went then to tend to her?
16 A. Correct, yes.
17 Q. I think you assisted the medical services with holding
18 torches for the IVs, holding drip bottles and
19 reassuring, after you'd reassured Mr Childs, Ms Owen as
20 well?
21 A. Correct, yes.
22 Q. When Ms Owen was taken out, do you recall how many
23 survivors were left on the train?
24 A. One.
25 Q. Do you know her name?


1 A. Kathy.
2 Q. Kathy Lazenbatt?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you then come out of the train and emerge from
5 Edgware station at the very end of the process by which
6 the casualties were removed?
7 A. I did, yes. There was one other passenger who was
8 assisting who was in the same area as me, and we left
9 together. This was now, I would imagine, maybe an hour
10 and a quarter after I had entered the carriage.
11 Q. So on the basis of what you've told us earlier --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- 10.10, 10.15?
14 A. Yes. Because I didn't have a watch, I would be
15 guessing, but I would say -- let's say between 10.00 and
16 10.30. When we were then directed out, there was some
17 surprise on the part of -- I'm not sure if it was
18 firemen or London Underground staff -- that there were
19 two passengers remaining. I think that they had thought
20 that they had evacuated all the passengers and maybe
21 confused us with medical teams on the basis that we were
22 helping there.
23 Q. But certainly there were no -- they were quite clear
24 about the removal of the casualties. You were
25 a passenger from the other train and, therefore, not


1 readily identifiable as a casualty?
2 A. We were not the casualties, no.
3 Q. But I think you were triaged, nevertheless, on your
4 arrival at ground level?
5 A. Correct, yes.
6 Q. But you discharged yourself on the basis that you
7 weren't injured and went to find a police officer to
8 speak to?
9 A. Correct, yes.
10 MR KEITH: Mr Hucklesby, thank you very much. Will you stay
11 there, though, please? There may be some further
12 questions for you.
13 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Just one from me, Mr Hucklesby,
14 before Mr Saunders.
15 I've added together your times and, if I had come to
16 a figure of the first paramedic you saw, a doctor, was
17 about 40 to 45 minutes after the explosion, does that
18 seem about right? I added together the time you said it
19 took to get to -- to try to help Laura, and then
20 obviously the time to get through the train.
21 A. Correct, yes.
22 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: That's about right, is it?
23 A. That's about right.
24 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you. Mr Saunders?
25 Questions by MR SAUNDERS


1 MR SAUNDERS: Mr Hucklesby, I'm going to ask you just a few
2 questions on behalf of Laura Webb's family. It seems,
3 does it not, that from the time of the explosion to when
4 you got to Laura was about four minutes or so?
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. As far as you can say, doing your best, there were no
7 obvious signs of life from Laura?
8 A. There were none.
9 Q. Notwithstanding that, you heroically tried both
10 compressions, CPR, and mouth-to-mouth?
11 A. I don't like the term "heroically", but --
12 Q. I know you don't because it's been said to you before,
13 I know, by the family, and they want me to repeat it,
14 how very grateful they are for everything you tried to
15 do, but it's clear, and they recognise that,
16 notwithstanding all of your efforts, Laura had already
17 passed away.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Her Ladyship has already asked, then, about the
20 emergency services which may have bearings on others,
21 but clearly for Laura that was too late anyway.
22 A. That was my sense at the time.
23 MR SAUNDERS: Thank you very much indeed, Mr Hucklesby.
25 Questions by MS GALLAGHER


1 MS GALLAGHER: Mr Hucklesby, I represent four of the
2 families at Edgware Road, but I just have some short
3 questions for you in respect of two of them.
4 The first thing I want you to assist us with is what
5 occurred when you first arrived into the carriage.
6 You've described seeing a body in the area where you
7 entered the carriage at D3, it's on [INQ10282-9] . Could
8 you just assist us a little further with the precise
9 location of that body? Is it in the area of seat 6?
10 A. Yes, it is, yes, fairly central in the carriage.
11 Q. So in front of seat 6 towards the middle area?
12 A. Correct, yes.
13 Q. Now, in fact, what you've described, rather than seeing
14 a full body, is the lower part of the body --
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. -- upper part of the torso covered, and you've also
17 described, in your view, that you thought the legs were
18 severed from the thigh down.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you sure that both legs were severed from the thigh
21 down or is your memory a little hazy?
22 A. I'm fairly certain both legs were severed, yes, both
23 legs were severed from the thigh down. There was not,
24 at least, one complete leg.
25 Q. Could it be that they were severely injured and very


1 badly damaged rather than entirely severed?
2 A. No, I believe both legs were severed.
3 Q. The reason I'm asking this is there were two bodies
4 found in this area. We've heard conflicting evidence
5 about who was placed where, and it's quite important to
6 the families just to ascertain, to the extent they
7 possibly can, where their loved one was, so that's
8 simply the reason I'm asking you this --
9 A. Thank you.
10 Q. -- I realise it's difficult for you to recall. Now,
11 you've described that the clothing was blown away --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- apart from the underwear. Could it be that there
14 were remnants of trousers remaining on the body that you
15 saw, or can you not say?
16 A. It's very difficult. I can't say.
17 Q. I very much appreciate that. If I could just ask you
18 some questions about the man trapped in the hole.
19 In terms of timing, you've told us you thought it
20 was a period of only four to five minutes before you got
21 to the other side of the crater to Laura Webb. So
22 plainly, the scene that you're describing, when you saw
23 the man trapped in the hole, must have been before that,
24 at the 3- to 4-minute mark?
25 A. I can't be precise on the timings to the minute. The


1 image that I described was at the point at which
2 I arrived in the carriage. I was only in that area for
3 a few seconds, let's say, 10 seconds, before making my
4 way forward, and I would have -- my sense is that it was
5 around 4 to 5 minutes that we were on the other train
6 before we could get access.
7 Q. Certainly, I appreciate I'm asking to you deconstruct
8 a fleeting glimpse, so I appreciate that that's
9 difficult. We've heard conflicting evidence or it may
10 be evidence which relates to two different phases about
11 this man, some of which describes him as vigorously
12 attempting to get out of the hole, shouting, yelling,
13 and other evidence which describes him as calm, resigned
14 and silent. From what you've said earlier, it sounds as
15 if the latter is a more accurate description of what you
16 saw. Is that correct?
17 A. That's correct, yes, at that time, yes.
18 Q. Can we take it from what you've said that you didn't at
19 any point hear him saying anything?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Just one final thing about that, if I may. You said in
22 answer to Mr Keith that you could only see to his chest
23 and, again, we've had some conflicting evidence about
24 whether only his arm could be seen or whether, in fact,
25 the entirety of his upper torso was out of the hole.


1 Again, could you assist us a little further? We
2 know you can see from his chest upwards. Could you also
3 see his arms?
4 A. I can't be sure this length on, I'm afraid.
5 MS GALLAGHER: I'm very grateful for the efforts that you
6 made. Thank you very much.
7 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you, Ms Gallagher. Yes
8 Ms Canby?
9 Questions by MS CANBY
10 MS CANBY: Mr Hucklesby, I just have a few questions to ask
11 you on behalf of Transport for London. Can we start
12 with lighting, please, before you moved on to the bombed
13 train?
14 You said that, after the explosion, the lights in
15 your carriage remained on. Was it your impression that
16 they were the same as they had been before the explosion
17 or that they'd dimmed slightly?
18 A. I can't be sure, I'm afraid, sorry.
19 Q. That's fine, Mr Hucklesby, thank you for trying.
20 You've told us about three conversations that you've
21 had with London Underground members of staff.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The first of those was when you'd finished your
24 resuscitation attempts.
25 A. Yes.


1 Q. You described a conversation that you had with a person
2 that you thought was a member of London Underground
3 staff. What was it about him that made you think he was
4 London Underground?
5 A. He had a fluorescent vest and, at the time, it would --
6 it was my impression that there was only
7 London Underground staff present.
8 Q. Was that an orange vest, can you remember at all?
9 A. I'm not sure.
10 Q. You said that he left in the direction of Edgware Road.
11 Did you see where he'd come from?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. You then told us that, about 15 minutes after you'd
14 moved Mr Childs through into the next carriage, a member
15 of London Underground staff appeared and told you that
16 medical help was on its way, and you formed the
17 impression that people were beginning to arrive
18 upstairs.
19 Was that the same member of London Underground or
20 was that a different member; are you able to say?
21 A. No, I'm not able to say.
22 Q. Then finally, you've described a member of
23 London Underground staff coming back again with a bottle
24 of water and you've said that he was clearly trying to
25 do everything he could and, when you said that you


1 needed emergency medical assistance, he ran through the
2 carriage. Was that a different man or was that the
3 same --
4 A. That was the same person, I believe, as the second
5 person that I spoke to.
6 Q. Do you at any stage recall a member of
7 London Underground staff assisting you with a tourniquet
8 on Mr Childs' leg?
9 A. I was not putting a tourniquet on Mr Childs' leg. The
10 tourniquet was already there when I arrived.
11 MS CANBY: That was already there. Thank you very much,
12 that's very helpful.
13 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Any other questions for Mr Hucklesby?
14 Yes, Ms Simcock?
15 Questions by MS SIMCOCK
16 MS SIMCOCK: Thank you, my Lady.
17 Just dealing with timing, I think you've said that
18 it took you four or five minutes to get to Laura Webb.
19 You then were obviously performing CPR and that must
20 have taken a few minutes. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In your statement given on 10 July 2005, you then say
23 that you deal -- you turned to deal with the person you
24 knew as Matt at the time immediately after you'd
25 finished CPR. Is that still your recollection?


1 A. There was the brief conversation with the
2 London Underground staff first and then I tended to
3 Matt.
4 Q. Yes, so would about ten minutes by then have elapsed?
5 A. It would have been, let's say, eight to ten.
6 Q. Eight to ten minutes, thank you. In your statement, you
7 say that you remained with Matt until the emergency
8 services arrived for 20 minutes to 30 minutes. That
9 would, if the 20-minute estimate is right, put emergency
10 services arriving by around about 9.20, and of course,
11 if the up to 30 minutes is right, it would be up to 9.30
12 or so. Is your statement likely to be more accurate
13 than your recollection now?
14 A. When I made the statement, my sense was that it was at
15 least 30 minutes. I said 20 to 30 minutes because I was
16 concerned into my mind as to whether the length of time
17 had appeared longer to me than it actually was.
18 Q. Of course.
19 A. I since feel that the sense I had at the time of it
20 being 30 minutes was more likely to be reliable.
21 Q. But of course, unlike Elizabeth Owen, you've said you
22 weren't wearing a watch.
23 A. I wasn't, so I only had the sense of time passing.
24 MS SIMCOCK: I'm very grateful, thank you.
25 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you, Ms Simcock. Any other


1 questions?
2 Mr Hucklesby, you may not like the word "heroic",
3 but I'm sorry, you're going to have to forgive me,
4 I have to use it, because I can't think of any other
5 word to describe what you did. So thank you so much for
6 everything you did, and thank you for coming along to
7 assist us.
8 MR KEITH: Thank you.
9 A. Thank you.
10 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Right, Mr Keith, the next witness is
11 booked for 3.30.
12 MR KEITH: She is.
13 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Let's hope the link to Florida works.
14 (3.11 pm)
15 (A short break)
16 (3.35 pm)
17 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Keith, before we try the
18 videolink, I just wanted to add something to what I said
19 as far as Mr Hucklesby is concerned.
20 I'm afraid, for once, I was somewhat struck dumb by
21 his response, and I wanted to add that the way in which
22 he got into that carriage, walked or climbed through it,
23 and the way in which he tried to help so many
24 desperately injured people was, as one person put it
25 this morning, simply amazing.


1 I just would ask Mr Smith, if he could, to copy my
2 remarks to Mr Hucklesby, who seemed such a modest man
3 that he actually, if I hadn't been struck dumb, probably
4 wouldn't have wanted me to say it in front of him
5 anyway. But I just wanted to add it because I didn't
6 want it to be thought that I was somehow underestimating
7 what he'd done that day.
8 MR KEITH: My Lady, yes, thank you very much.
9 My Lady, the next witness, Lisa Levine, joins us
10 from Plantation in Florida.
11 Good morning.
12 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
13 MR KEITH: Can you hear me clearly?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.
15 MR KEITH: Ms Levine, I'm going to ask you to be given the
16 affirmation, a form of oath, by a member of the court
17 staff here. Could you please do as she says?
18 MS LISA JILL LEVINE (affirmed)
19 Questions by MR KEITH
20 MR KEITH: Thank you very much. Could you please state for
21 the court record your full name?
22 A. Lisa Jill Levine.
23 Q. Ms Levine, in 2005, you were living in South Kensington
24 in London, is that right?
25 A. That's correct.


1 Q. On 7 July, did you walk to Gloucester Road Tube station
2 to get a Circle Line train to Euston?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. So you were looking to get an eastbound Circle Line
5 train?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I think you met a friend on the platform at
8 Gloucester Road. Is that right?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Did you continue to travel with her all the way to
11 Paddington or not?
12 A. She got off at Notting Hill and I stayed on the
13 Circle Line train.
14 Q. Could you tell us, please, what you can recall of what
15 we now know to have been the bomb explosion after you
16 left Paddington?
17 A. I remember sitting in a seat with my back towards where
18 the other train would have been passing, and I heard
19 a loud explosion, and the two trains came to rest next
20 to each other.
21 Q. What was it about the noise that led you to believe
22 immediately that it was a bomb?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Did the lights in your carriage stay on?
25 A. I believe they did.


1 Q. What was the first sign of whatever it was that had
2 occurred in that tunnel?
3 A. There was -- our train began to immediately fill with
4 smoke and we could hear screaming.
5 Q. Can you recall where the smoke came from?
6 A. It was coming in through the vents, I believe, at the
7 top of our train.
8 Q. What was the reaction of passengers in your carriage?
9 A. There was oddly calm. There was some speculation from
10 other passengers that maybe the train had derailed or
11 that the engine had fallen out and, you know, just sort
12 of threw itself off the tracks, but everybody was just
13 kind of, you know, going to the floor to try to get air
14 because the train had filled with smoke.
15 Q. Could you tell from which general direction the
16 screaming was coming from?
17 A. It was behind me.
18 Q. So from the other track, from the other train?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Did there come a time when people in your carriage, or
21 your car, tried to open the doors?
22 A. Yes, my -- when I heard the screaming, I said we had to
23 get those people out. Sorry.
24 Q. Ms Levine, there's no rush. Take your time.
25 A. We tried to wedge the doors open on our train to try to


1 get to the other side, but the doors wouldn't open more
2 than an inch or two, and we tried to break the glass
3 with an axe, but it wouldn't break, and so we were
4 helpless, there was nothing we could do to help.
5 Q. Ms Levine, I don't know whether you have some water
6 there with you, but we sometimes find that it helps
7 a little. Would you like us to take a break?
8 A. I'm sorry.
9 Q. Please don't apologise.
10 A. I'm fine. I'll be okay.
11 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I think it's better to keep going, if
12 we can, I usually find it helps.
13 MR KEITH: My Lady, yes.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Once it became apparent that the doors couldn't be
16 opened other than a very small amount, and the windows
17 could not be broken, did somebody come into the carriage
18 and ask whether anybody was medically trained?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you do?
21 A. I stood up and went directly to the front of the
22 carriage and I could see that there was injured people
23 on the other train.
24 Q. I'll ask you just about that in a moment. Can you tell
25 us, please, what sort of first aid or medical training


1 you had had at that time?
2 A. I had been a registered nurse here in the United States
3 for 17 years.
4 Q. So you were extremely well-trained. Did anybody else
5 stand up alongside you or make themselves known as being
6 similarly trained in first aid?
7 A. There was a girl named Trish, I did not get her last
8 name, she was about to graduate from nursing school, and
9 so she went with me.
10 Q. Now, you've just told us that you were able to see,
11 having moved to the front of the carriage, through into
12 the other train. I'd like you, please, to look at
13 a diagram which has got a title at the top called
14 "Probable location of 2nd carriage", it's one of the
15 five or six pieces of paper that I know have been sent
16 to you.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. You will see there, Ms Levine, the two trains adjacent
19 to each other. The bombed carriage on the westbound
20 train is the second carriage towards the bottom of the
21 plan, and, therefore, we can presume that you must have
22 been in carriage number 3 on the other train going in
23 the opposite direction.
24 When you looked through from your carriage into the
25 other carriage, the bombed carriage, how were you able


1 to see through out of your carriage into the other one?
2 A. Through the crack in the door we tried to wedge open,
3 and through the window.
4 Q. When you looked through, was there enough light in the
5 other carriage to be able to see something of what was
6 inside?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you looked through the carriage door, did you see
9 somebody in the other carriage on the floor?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. Was that person a lady lying face up on the floor of the
12 other carriage?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Could you then please pick up another document, it's
15 called "Positions of deceased in 2nd carriage". This is
16 just one of the carriages in the other train. If you
17 look at it, Ms Levine, the track upon which your train
18 was situated is to the top of the page. The tunnel wall
19 is on the other side of the carriage towards the bottom
20 of the page.
21 The young lady whom we think that you saw was
22 situated towards the end of the bombed carriage, towards
23 the left of this diagram. Do you think that it was, in
24 fact, therefore, the first set of double doors D1 that
25 you looked through into the other carriage?


1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell us, please, what you remember of the
3 condition of that young lady?
4 A. When I saw her initially, she was breathing very
5 shallow. There was a gentleman walking in her vicinity
6 and we asked him to see if he could feel a pulse. He
7 didn't really know how, and then, shortly after that,
8 she had stopped breathing.
9 Q. How were you able to detect that she was shallow
10 breathing when you first saw her?
11 A. I could see her chest rising.
12 Q. Was there anybody else near her; for example, another
13 lady crouching down next to her?
14 A. I don't recall that.
15 Q. Did you gain the impression that the other man had just
16 approached the young lady when you saw her, or had he
17 already started trying to help her when you looked
18 through?
19 A. I don't really know. I just know that, when I got
20 there, he was in her vicinity.
21 Q. You asked him to see if he could find a pulse. Do you
22 recollect whether he was able to find the right place on
23 her body to look for a pulse?
24 A. I don't know that he was. He said he didn't feel
25 anything, but that could be that he didn't feel in the


1 right place. He wasn't very sure where to place his
2 fingers.
3 Q. We've heard a substantial amount of evidence, Ms Levine,
4 to suggest that that gentleman, Mr Hucklesby, in fact
5 was able to try to attempt chest compressions and
6 mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, and he did several rounds
7 of CPR.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Do you recollect him doing that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. He's told us that he remembers some ladies in the other
12 carriage shouting through instructions to open the young
13 lady's airway so that he could carry out the CPR. Do
14 you remember also telling him about that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For how long did he attempt resuscitation, can you
17 recall?
18 A. I don't recall, the timing of the entire thing is very
19 fuzzy. I know he tried for several minutes, and that,
20 at one point, when he gave her some breaths, he came up
21 and his mouth was just covered with blood.
22 Q. So was it apparent to you, as a trained registered
23 nurse, that the cardiopulmonary resuscitation was not
24 working and his attempts had failed?
25 A. It was, unfortunately.


1 Q. I must ask you this: could you see any signs of life at
2 the point when he ceased trying to carry out the CPR?
3 A. I did not.
4 Q. Ms Levine, we know from your statement that, as you've
5 said, you needed to get across and try to help, so did
6 you then go down the carriage to try to find a broken
7 window or a door through which you could then get
8 through into the other train?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. If you pick up the diagram which is called "Positions of
11 deceased", if you moved forward down your train towards
12 the front, that is to say down your carriage, and then
13 and only then entered the bomb carriage, can you tell
14 us, please, which doors of the bombed carriage you
15 entered?
16 A. I believe it was D5.
17 Q. So you effectively moved two further doors down in your
18 own carriage?
19 A. I think we were -- I think we went into the first
20 carriage of my train, and that's where the broken window
21 was.
22 Q. At any rate, you're sure that that was the set of double
23 doors through which you entered the bombed carriage?
24 A. I'm very, very certain.
25 Q. You kindly prepared for the police, when they originally


1 took your witness statement, a diagram and I think that
2 again should be in the papers in front of you, it's our
3 [INQ9771-2] . Could we perhaps have enlarged, please, that
4 section and split, if we can, with [INQ10282-9] .
5 My Lady, these two diagrams are reversed on each
6 other for a reason I'll explain. If you could enlarge
7 the top one, thank you.
8 Do you recognise the plan at the bottom, Ms Levine?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The X on the bottom plan marks where you entered the
11 bombed carriage, does it not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And so -- and to get our bearings, does the "K" in
14 the circle represent the location of the crater about
15 which I'm going to ask you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. My Lady, of course that is the top carriage upside down.
18 You entered through doors D6, which, on the top diagram,
19 is the set of double doors from the right.
20 On the plan, on your plan, Ms Levine, you marked
21 a number of positions to represent the positions of
22 people that you encountered in the carriage. I want to
23 ask you, please, about them.
24 When you first entered the carriage through point X,
25 were there two ladies sitting next to each other to your


1 right which you've marked as B and C?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were they two ladies called Emily and Katy Benton?
4 A. Yes, they were.
5 Q. What state were they in, can you recall?
6 A. They were injured. They were talking. They appeared to
7 be in shock. One of them was being held up -- I believe
8 it was Emily -- by a gentleman who was sitting behind
9 her, and was talking with them, and I did a quick
10 assessment to see if they were okay, and they
11 appeared -- they were, you know, breathing and, although
12 they had damage, shrapnel lacerations and so forth, they
13 appeared to be in a stable condition.
14 Q. As a result, did you stay with them or did you continue
15 to move down the carriage?
16 A. I continued to move down the carriage.
17 Q. Opposite them -- we can see you've marked the location
18 "D" -- was there a man with blood on his face?
19 A. Yes, he was sitting in the seat.
20 Q. In what state was he?
21 A. He was breathing, and just sort of sitting there, but he
22 did have some lacerations to his face as well.
23 Q. I now want to turn to the people that you saw when you
24 turned to the right, having entered the carriage. Were
25 you able to see the crater, one set of double doors


1 further down the carriage?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you see anybody in the crater?
4 A. When I got closer, I did see that there was somebody
5 that had fallen through.
6 Q. Were you able to see whether they were moving at that
7 stage?
8 A. I did not.
9 Q. Were there people around that person, can you recollect?
10 A. I don't recall.
11 Q. All right. Is it possible -- we need to know the
12 difference between whether something did occur but you
13 now can't remember it, because, of course, it happened
14 a great deal of time ago, or whether you're sure that
15 there was nobody around him.
16 A. I'm not sure that there was nobody around him. My focus
17 was trying to get to Laura.
18 Q. I understand. Could you see anybody else lying on the
19 floor near the crater?
20 A. There was a gentleman whose name was David who had an
21 injury to his leg. He was laying on the ground and
22 there were people assisting him.
23 Q. How did you get past the crater?
24 A. I actually went out the other set of doors that I came
25 in and I got down onto the tracks and I moved down two


1 doors and then somebody pulled me up back into the
2 train.
3 Q. Having got in the next set of doors -- do we take it
4 that from the plan that you have entitled "Positions of
5 deceased" that it was the double door D3, one set of
6 doors further down?
7 A. No, it was on the tunnel wall side.
8 Q. So D4, opposite?
9 A. Either D4 or D2. Yes, it was D4.
10 Q. So you came into the train very near to where the crater
11 was. Do you recollect there being anybody else lying --
12 anybody else lying on the floor?
13 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it had to have been D2.
14 Q. Opposite the young lady?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Right. When you came in that door, do you recollect
17 anybody else lying on the floor of the carriage in that
18 standing area?
19 A. Well, I immediately went over to Laura to see if there
20 was any signs of life and there weren't.
21 Q. Can I ask you to pause there? How did you ascertain
22 that there were no signs of life?
23 A. I checked for a pulse. I checked for breathing. And
24 there was none.
25 Q. Having ascertained that there were no signs of life, did


1 you look around you?
2 A. I did. I sat with her for a minute and then I looked
3 and there was a man in a blue coat laying face down on
4 the floor.
5 Q. On your map, have you marked the position of that person
6 at H -- at I, I'm sorry, not H, I?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were there any signs of life from that person?
9 A. There wasn't.
10 Q. Did you take a pulse as you had with the young lady or
11 was it absolutely plain that the person was dead?
12 A. I felt for a pulse on his arm.
13 Q. And there was none?
14 A. And there was none.
15 Q. On your plan, Ms Levine, you have also marked the
16 location of a person at J who would have been one set of
17 double doors down back the way you had come. Do you
18 recollect anything of that person?
19 A. The only thing I remember was that his -- I think his
20 legs were burnt.
21 Q. You've put on the end of the description of the person
22 at J the word "dead", and may we therefore take it that,
23 at the time, you had some reason to believe that that
24 person also had passed away?
25 A. Yes.


1 Q. Do you now recall what it was that led you to believe
2 that that person had also died?
3 A. I don't.
4 Q. Once you had realised that the young lady was dead and
5 you had taken a moment to reflect, did you then turn to
6 provide first aid to the people who were right at the
7 end of the carriage?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there a man with a fracture injury to his leg and
10 a woman with a laceration to her leg?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did you do for them?
13 A. I remember the man saying that he was starting to feel
14 faint, and so we sort of moved him from the seats and we
15 laid him down so that he could get his -- keep his blood
16 pressure up a little bit. I didn't want him to faint.
17 So we moved him off the seats from a sitting position
18 onto the ground, and the lady had a laceration to her
19 leg and I think I found a sweatshirt somewhere and
20 I tied that around her leg just to stem -- stop the
21 bleeding.
22 Q. Did it work?
23 A. I hope so.
24 Q. Were you able to see that her leg was continuing to
25 bleed or did it seem to you that it was having some


1 beneficial effect?
2 A. I believe that it slowed the bleeding down.
3 Q. Was the lady who had come out of your carriage with you
4 with you at this stage, Trish, or had she gone further
5 down the carriage?
6 A. I don't know. Yes, I don't know where she was at that
7 point.
8 Q. Did you stay with that man and woman, the two injured
9 people at the end of the carriage, until the paramedics
10 arrived?
11 A. I was -- made my -- once I knew that they were stable,
12 I made my way back over to the other side of the crater
13 and actually climbed over some of the debris this time,
14 and made my way back towards Emily and Katy, and then
15 there was a lady further down the train that was -- it
16 appeared like two people were trying to get her off of
17 the train because she had a severe either leg or knee
18 injury, and she was screaming out in pain every time
19 they tried to move her. So I walked down to that part
20 of the train and I said, "Just wait for the paramedics
21 because you can do more damage trying to get her off the
22 train".
23 Q. Is that the person whom you've marked on your plan as
24 being at location A whom you describe as a lady with
25 a knee injury?


1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So right down the other end of the carriage?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Where were you when the paramedics arrived? Did you
5 stay with the lady at A, or did you move back down the
6 carriage?
7 A. I was more towards the centre of the carriage at that
8 point. I don't remember exactly what I was doing when
9 they arrived. I think I may have been with David.
10 Q. David Gardner, the man with the very severe leg injury?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, the Metropolitan Police, when they took your
13 statement, your witness statement, asked you how much
14 time had elapsed between the moment of the explosion and
15 the time the paramedics arrived. This is an issue of
16 some importance to us. You told them that it was
17 impossible to say because having a perception of time in
18 those circumstances was, frankly, unrealistic. But we
19 are aware that you gave an interview to CNN, either on
20 7 July or shortly thereafter, when you did hazard
21 a guess that it was about some 20 minutes --
22 (Video connection broken)
23 Ms Levine, can you --
24 A. You're back.
25 Q. We are. I'm sorry. Can you hear and see us?


1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm afraid the picture of you has now become somewhat
3 distorted, but we can hear your voice clearly and so we
4 will press on.
5 (Video connection broken)
6 Ms Levine, I was asking you about your hazarding of
7 a guess of about 20 minutes -- which is the time that
8 you referred to -- as having elapsed between the
9 explosion and the arrival of the paramedics. That was
10 obviously much nearer the events in question. Is that
11 your best estimate, or was that your best estimate of
12 the amount of time that had passed?
13 A. It is, but I really have no idea.
14 Q. Did you stay once the paramedics had arrived?
15 A. I stayed for a few minutes after the paramedics arrived
16 and then sort of felt like I was in the way and there
17 really wasn't much I could do at that point, so I left
18 the train at that point.
19 Q. Did you make your way up to the ground level of
20 Edgware Road station and into Marks & Spencers?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was it there that you spoke to a member of the police
23 who took your details and then they subsequently
24 contacted you for the purposes of taking a witness
25 statement?


1 A. I did not speak to anybody at Marks & Spencers. All
2 they did was ask us to write down our contact
3 information on a piece of paper and I left shortly after
4 that.
5 MR KEITH: Ms Levine, thank you very much for the evidence
6 that you have given. There will be some further
7 questions for you from other barristers in this
8 courtroom.
10 MR SAUNDERS: Ms Levine, in fact I don't have any actual
11 questions. I represent Laura's family here in London,
12 and so that you know, they are actually here in court
13 with us. They would simply like me to extend their
14 thanks to you for your efforts that day, in the checking
15 that you did, and understand that there was absolutely
16 nothing more you could have done to have helped Laura.
17 A. That is true.
18 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you, Mr Saunders.
19 Ms Gallagher?
20 Questions by MS GALLAGHER
21 MS GALLAGHER: Ms Levine, I just have one question.
22 I represent some of the other bereaved families. You
23 said today that, when you saw the bomb crater, you saw
24 that someone had fallen through. That was your
25 description, and in your statement at the time you


1 described seeing someone in the crater.
2 Can you remember if that person had fallen through
3 onto the tracks or was any part of their body visible at
4 floor level at that point?
5 A. I honestly cannot really remember. I just remember
6 walking past and seeing that there was somebody in
7 there. I don't know how far down or if he had been all
8 the way on the tracks or stuck in between. I'm really
9 not sure. I'm sorry.
10 Q. That's no problem at all, and you've no memory of
11 whether he was moving or speaking?
12 A. None at all.
13 MS GALLAGHER: No problem at all, Ms Levine. I'm very
14 grateful for the efforts that you've made to try to
15 remember, thank you.
16 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Any other questions?
17 Ms Levine, hello, I'm Lady Justice Hallett, the
18 coroner. I have to say I don't know how many of us
19 would have done what you did that day, so thank you very
20 much for all your efforts. As you've heard from
21 Mr Saunders, the fact that you went to help so quickly
22 with your training has been a great source of comfort to
23 a number of the bereaved families, so I'm sorry we had
24 to ask you to relive the events of that day, and thank
25 you very much for joining us.


1 A. Thank you. I wish I could have done more.
2 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: You did everything you could. Thank
3 you.
4 A. Thank you.
5 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Right, Mr Garnham, are you all right
6 back there? Would you and Mr Hall rather come further
7 up? It's up to you?
8 MR GARNHAM: I'm very happy in the back row, madam.
9 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: As far as anybody else is concerned,
10 that is the end of the evidence for this afternoon?
11 MR KEITH: It is, my Lady.
12 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: We're now turning to directions on
13 PII claims.
14 Directions hearing on PII claims
15 MR KEITH: My Lady, a written submission containing some
16 proposed directions was prepared and circulated by
17 Mr Andrew O'Connor, and I'm going to ask him to address
18 you in relation to the contents of those submissions.
19 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: As far as the families understand,
20 PII, I'm afraid, legal shorthand for "public interest
21 immunity", documents that are said to be too secret to
22 be disclosed. Yes, Mr O'Connor?
23 MR ANDREW O'CONNOR: My Lady, before we turn to the
24 directions, although I wasn't present in court this
25 morning, I'm aware that both you and counsel for some of


1 the families expressed concern about the manner in which
2 the news of the Secretary of State's decision to
3 challenge your ruling on closed evidence was
4 disseminated yesterday.
5 Mr Garnham is here now, and I know that he has
6 something to say about that matter. I wonder if it
7 would be convenient if he dealt with that first?
8 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Of course. Mr Garnham?
9 MR GARNHAM: Thank you for the chance to deal with this.
10 I make it clear that the letter informing Mr Smith of
11 the Secretary of State's intention to challenge your
12 decision was sent by those instructing me before the
13 Home Office press office released the press notice, but
14 I accept straightaway that it was sent only very shortly
15 before. I am told the letter to Mr Smith was sent at
16 15.44 hours. The press office release was about
17 16.00 hours. I regret to say that the latter followed
18 the former quite so quickly. It plainly should not have
19 done. It should have followed only after sufficient
20 time had passed to enable your team, first and foremost,
21 to inform you but, secondly, and almost as important,
22 then to inform the other interested persons.
23 Madam, the Secretary of State greatly regrets what's
24 happened, and I repeat here what I know has been
25 conveyed to you in writing, that the Secretary of State


1 meant no discourtesy and no disrespect whatsoever as
2 a result of what happened, and the Home Office
3 apologises for what must have appeared to have been
4 insensitivity on our part.
5 I can furthermore, madam, repeat, reiterate, that we
6 will take the necessary steps to ensure that press
7 releases in circumstances such as these are not issued
8 until your team has had a reasonable chance to let you
9 and then the interested persons know of the matter in
10 question.
11 Madam, I'm not going to say that we will seek to
12 ensure that we will contact all interested persons,
13 because it seems to us much better if communication of
14 that sort comes through your office, but we will seek to
15 ensure that the press are not informed before your staff
16 have had a reasonable chance to deal with the matter.
17 And I apologise again, madam.
18 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Garnham, we are extremely grateful
19 for that. I know some of the families who were
20 particularly concerned to learn of the news in the way
21 that they did are still present and I'm sure they've
22 heard your words and will accept the apology which
23 you've obviously made unreservedly and I'm very grateful
24 to you.
25 I'm told, if you could, next time you're speaking,


1 get closer to the microphone. Thank you very much.
2 Right, Mr O'Connor, directions?
3 MR ANDREW O'CONNOR: My Lady, yes.
4 My Lady, it was on Thursday last week that Mr Smith
5 circulated some short written submissions from us as
6 Mr Keith has mentioned. The purpose of those
7 submissions was to set out our proposals for a procedure
8 whereby you may determine the claims for public interest
9 immunity that we are aware will be made in respect of
10 some documents that have been disclosed to you on the
11 issue of preventability.
12 For the avoidance of doubt, we understand that it is
13 likely that PII claims will be made by the
14 Security Service, the Metropolitan Police and also by
15 the West Yorkshire Police.
16 My Lady, two days have now been set aside in the
17 inquest's timetable for you to hear submissions, that is
18 open and ex parte submissions, on the PII claims. Those
19 days are Thursday, 2 December and Friday, 3 December.
20 Those days fall at the end of what will be the first
21 week of evidence relating to the
22 King's Cross/Russell Square scene.
23 The purpose of this short hearing today is for you
24 to give directions leading to those hearings on those
25 days.


1 My Lady, some draft directions were suggested at the
2 end of our written submissions, and we don't understand
3 there to be any significant degree of dissent about
4 them.
5 Before I turn to those directions, my Lady, may
6 I briefly summarise two more general points that we made
7 in our written submissions.
8 The first point related to what was, as at last
9 week, the possibility of a challenge to your ruling on
10 the closed evidence issue. Matters, of course, have
11 moved on since then.
12 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I'm sorry to interrupt you,
13 Mr O'Connor, I should add I think we've been given
14 a date: next Thursday. A possible date. I think you'll
15 find it's a definite date. I think I was told -- I'm
16 nearly confident -- that I was told at lunchtime that
17 next Thursday is the date.
18 MR KEITH: If I can assist, I understand that papers have
19 just a moment or two ago been placed before a judge of
20 the High Court with a view to the issue of directions
21 which will no doubt include the date as well.
22 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I think you'll find that there's
23 a court arranged. Anyway.
24 MR ANDREW O'CONNOR: My Lady, I apologise. Our point
25 relating to the challenge to your ruling on the issue of


1 closed evidence is a short one, and it's simply that
2 this PII process must proceed on the basis of the ruling
3 that you have given, unless and until that ruling is
4 successfully challenged.
5 We do understand that the resolution of this issue
6 may affect the way in which PII claims are determined
7 and in other situations there might be strong arguments
8 for deferring the PII process until the point of
9 principle had been finally resolved.
10 However, my Lady, the very demanding timetable that
11 has been set in these proceedings simply does not allow
12 us that luxury. As we've observed in our written
13 submissions, different considerations may apply were the
14 point of principle still to be the subject of challenge
15 at a point when, if this happens, the Secretary of State
16 was being required by your order to make damaging
17 disclosure at the end of the PII process, but at least
18 until that point is reached a stay simply cannot be
19 accommodated.
20 The second point, my Lady, was simply to acknowledge
21 that we do not anticipate that it will be possible to
22 deal with all the PII claims at the hearings on 2 and
23 3 December. We have had discussions with the parties
24 who are likely to be making such claims, and we
25 understand that there are likely to be some claims that


1 will not be ready to be determined by that point. What
2 we hope for, and what we invite you to urge all the
3 parties involved to use their best endeavours to achieve
4 is that at least a significant number of the PII claims
5 can be determined on those days.
6 Some further limited court time is likely to be
7 available during the rest of December for you to hear
8 submissions on further claims, and it may also be that
9 it will be possible for you to determine some such
10 claims on the papers in the light of the rulings that
11 you will by then have made.
12 My Lady, turning to the directions, as I mentioned,
13 they are set out at the end of the written document that
14 we circulated last week. I hope you have a copy of it
15 before you.
17 MR ANDREW O'CONNOR: My Lady, it's paragraph 10. My Lady,
18 the first proposed direction is that by 10.00 on
19 Tuesday, 16 November -- that is next Tuesday -- Mr Smith
20 is to inform the parties who have made sensitive
21 documents available for inspection by you and your team
22 as to which of those documents, or which part of them,
23 you wish to disclose to all interested persons.
24 My Lady, may I add this caveat? As is inevitable in
25 a process of this nature, documents have been disclosed


1 to you, not all at once, but piece by piece, if I can
2 put it that way.
3 There is an ongoing process of considering them, and
4 you are involved in -- clearly are considering them as
5 they come in for the purposes of making this decision as
6 to whether or not it is necessary to disclose them
7 further on to other interested persons.
8 We are still hopeful that, at least the majority of
9 the documents that have been made available to you and
10 your team, in respect of those an indication can be
11 given next Tuesday morning as to which of those need to
12 be disclosed onwards, but it may be that it won't be
13 possible to inform all of the interested parties of this
14 information in respect of all of their documents.
15 My Lady, the second direction is that PII claims
16 arising from those documents should be served on
17 Mr Smith by 4.00 on Friday, 26 November. That is the
18 Friday two weeks after next Tuesday, therefore giving
19 the parties a little less than two weeks to make those
20 claims.
21 My Lady, as I've already mentioned, we understand
22 that that is a relatively short time period and it is
23 one that we understand that some of the parties involved
24 will not be able to comply with in respect of all of
25 their material. But, as I've said, we hope that they


1 will be able to make as many of the claims in respect of
2 this material as possible.
3 The need for them to make those claims and to serve
4 them on Mr Smith by Friday, 26 November, is to enable
5 the rest of the directions to follow: namely, that those
6 claims -- or at least the open part of those claims --
7 can be served on all of the interested persons in the
8 inquest first thing at the beginning of Monday the week
9 following, which will then give them a day -- we
10 recognise it's a relatively short period of time, but so
11 be it -- to prepare their submissions which they can
12 then serve on Mr Smith on Tuesday, 30 November in
13 readiness for a hearing on Thursday and Friday at the
14 end of that week.
15 My Lady, we acknowledge that this is an accelerated
16 timetable. It involves all the parties involved doing
17 their best to accommodate these matters so that the
18 material can be properly before you on Thursday, 2 and
19 Friday, 3 December, for you to make your rulings on
20 those claims.
21 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you, Mr O'Connor.
22 Mr Garnham shall I go to you first as you're
23 probably principally involved?
24 MR GARNHAM: Madam, in the light of the way Mr O'Connor puts
25 it, we respectfully agree with the approach he suggests


1 is adopted. Given the fact that there is to be
2 a challenge to the closed hearing aspect of your last
3 ruling, we agree that the default position he describes
4 is the sensible one.
5 We are content that you make an order in the terms
6 drafted. Given the way Mr O'Connor has put it, he has
7 recognised that we will not be able to deal with all of
8 the matters that are likely to be the subject of
9 Mr Smith's letter to us, but we will certainly do our
10 best to deal with as many as we can, in particular the
11 ones which are said to be of particular significance.
12 Madam, you will understand that preparing a PII
13 certificate is a less than straightforward business, and
14 in this case will involve the Secretary of State herself
15 personally reading and approving the documents that are
16 produced, and so we cannot undertake that everything
17 will be done, but we will do the most we can by that
18 date.
19 Madam, I have only one other thing to say in that
20 regard and that concerns documents that are currently in
21 the hands of West Yorkshire Police and the
22 Metropolitan Police. Where their documentation is
23 assessed by your team as being relevant, the
24 Security Service will need to consider that material, if
25 it affects us, and it may then be that we will need --


1 whatever the position of the two forces concerned is, we
2 may need to make PII applications in respect of that
3 material, and I would just invite Mr O'Connor and the
4 counsel team to bear that in mind when they're working
5 this process through.
6 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you very much, Mr Garnham.
7 In other circumstances, I might have made this
8 a best endeavours order. Everybody understands that
9 this is essentially a best endeavours order.
10 MR GARNHAM: I heard Mr O'Connor use that word and I'm
11 grateful for it.
12 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you very much.
13 Mr Hill?
14 MR HILL: My Lady, we're also content. The key words, it
15 seems to us, in paragraph 9 of your team's written
16 submission of 4 November are that they and inferentially
17 you require or I should say need a spread of
18 representative PII claims, and you are timetabling with
19 that in mind. Those are the words that we take to
20 heart.
21 There's also been comprehensively scheduled and made
22 available to your team, and indeed to the
23 Security Service, the material which is physically held
24 by the Metropolitan Police. So we are, we hope, at an
25 advanced stage. We will have the benefit of guidance


1 from you and your team on next Tuesday or as soon as can
2 be managed thereafter as to relevance. That will allow
3 us to meet, we hope, your timetable, to make appropriate
4 claims. We're not impeded in the sense that we have to
5 go to a superintending minister for PII certificates.
6 The Metropolitan Police can perform that task for
7 themselves.
8 We will, for the avoidance of doubt, be seeking to
9 use gisting and gisting tables, but we intend to
10 approach the hearing on 2 and 3 December using that
11 mechanism, and if, of course, in the meantime you've
12 indicated relevance to documents which you and your team
13 then subsequently tell us on 2 or 3 December is
14 satisfactorily gisted as to relevance, then there would
15 be no need for any residual public interest immunity
16 claim over the original documents.
17 So that, too, will help to filter this material.
18 None of us can say here and now how many discrete, fully
19 made, fully formed, PII claims will be left. There may
20 be some. There may be very few. But we hope that
21 a spread of representative issues can be encompassed in
22 that two-day hearing.
23 We would have said that it would be difficult, if
24 not impossible, were your directions intended to be
25 comprehensive as to every document and every issue, but


1 we don't understand that that's what you're saying.
2 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Hill, I'm grateful for your
3 mentioning the word "gisting". I do expect, as
4 Mr Eadie, I think, on previous occasions has assured me,
5 that everybody will make all attempts to ensure that
6 documents are subject to the gist being taken out of
7 them where at all possible.
8 MR HILL: Yes.
9 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you very much. Mr Skelt?
10 MR SKELT: I can add little to what's been said already,
11 simply this: we would invite as early and as specific an
12 indication as possible in relation to relevance, because
13 that will best assist us in assessing the documentation
14 and also performing gisting, but we will also seek, as
15 best we can, to comply with the proposed timetable and
16 I have no contrary submissions to make.
17 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: I think you've probably got a fair
18 idea already, Mr Skelt.
19 MR SKELT: Thank you.
20 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: As far as the families and the other
21 interested persons are concerned, Mr O'Connor, the
22 timetable is terribly tight. I think it doesn't allow
23 you a lot of time, but --
24 MR PATRICK O'CONNOR: We have no submissions.
25 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you very much. Mr Coltart?


1 Anyone else? Very well, well, again, I'm enormously
2 grateful to all the legal representatives who are
3 sticking to what is a very imposing timetable, and I can
4 only keep expressing my appreciation.
5 MR ANDREW O'CONNOR: My Lady, yes.
6 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Mr Garnham, may I also thank the
7 Secretary of State for keeping to the timetable that
8 I imposed without any power in law as to announcing the
9 decision within seven days. I appreciate that that
10 would have been also another very tough timetable and
11 I'm very grateful.
12 MR GARNHAM: We didn't win any prizes last time, madam. We
13 were trying to achieve them this time.
14 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you. Is there anything else we
15 can do today?
16 MR KEITH: No thank you, my Lady.
17 LADY JUSTICE HALLETT: Thank you very much.
18 (4.27 pm)
19 (The inquests adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)


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