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Full Hearings

Hearing: 12th June 2008, day 34

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held at:
The Interpoint Centre
20-24 York Street
Belfast BT15 1AQ

on Thursday, 12th June 2008
commencing at 10.15 am

Day 34









1 Thursday, 12th June 2008

2 (10.15 am)

3 (Proceedings delayed)

4 (10.45 am)

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Currans, may we go through the checklist

6 with you please? Before the witness comes in, is the

7 public area screen fully in place, locked and the key

8 secured?

9 MR CURRANS: Sir, it is.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the fire doors on either side of the

11 screen closed?

12 MR CURRANS: Sir, they are.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the technical support screens in place

14 and securely fastened?

15 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Is anyone other than Inquiry personnel and

17 participants' legal representatives seated in the body

18 of this chamber?

19 MR CURRANS: No, sir.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: [name deleted], can you confirm, please, that

21 the two witness cameras have been switched off and

22 shrouded?

23 MR [NAME DELETED]: Yes, sir.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. All the other cameras been

25 switched off?





1 MR [NAME DELETED]: Yes, they have, sir.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

3 Bring the witness in, please.

4 The witness is now in position. The cameras on the

5 Panel, Inquiry personnel and the Full Participants'

6 legal representatives may now be switched back on.

7 C150 (sworn)

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

9 Yes, Mr Savill?

10 Questions by MR SAVILL

11 MR SAVILL: I would like first of all, please, if I may, to

12 confirm with you that the witness statement was given to

13 the Inquiry by yourself. So, please, could we call up

14 on to the screen, RNI-840-140 (displayed). Thank you.

15 And now RNI-840-151, and you can see a date and cipher

16 on that page. Can you confirm that that is your witness

17 statement, please?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Thank you. I am going to ask you, if I may, some

20 questions concerning the statement that you gave to the

21 Inquiry. Can I begin, please, by asking you for how

22 long you had known Rosemary Nelson?

23 A. I had known Rosemary from -- I was 14, which was 20-odd

24 years. I play Irish music and Rosemary will have gone to

25 some of the gigs that I'd have been doing. You know,





1 I got to know Rosemary. I'd been in her house a few

2 times at do's that she would have had, I would have

3 played at them. She was my solicitor; whenever she

4 became a solicitor, that is who I went to.

5 Q. I hope you don't mind me saying so but I think you are

6 quite a softly spoken person. I can't see how close you

7 are to the microphone but could I just ask, please, if

8 you could either speak up or speak into the microphone

9 a little more directly, because I think that would help

10 all of us?

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Thank you very much. So you knew her from teenage

13 years?

14 A. Yes, that is right.

15 Q. Were you at school with her, in fact?

16 A. No, I wasn't.

17 Q. In the same group of friends?

18 A. In the same circle of friends, yes.

19 Q. So you saw quite a lot of her.

20 A. I did, yes.

21 Q. I think you said that she was your solicitor from the

22 time she became a solicitor.

23 A. That is right.

24 Q. Is that right?

25 A. That's right.





1 Q. I don't want to know all the details, you probably can't

2 remember them, but would you say you had little, quite

3 a bit or a lot of contact with her as a solicitor?

4 A. Quite a bit.

5 Q. What view are you able to give us of her as a solicitor?

6 A. Brilliant solicitor. She was a good solicitor. That's

7 really all I can say.

8 Q. I think it's right that in your statement -- I won't

9 take you to it -- that you describe her as being very

10 dedicated.

11 A. Yes, she was dedicated, yes.

12 Q. In your statement, casting your mind back -- and I'm

13 sorry, many of these events are so long ago but casting

14 your mind back -- and I don't want the detail of it --

15 you were involved in, I think, an incident at an Army

16 checkpoint in, I think, 1996.

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. As a result of that checkpoint and your involvement with

19 it, you, I think, went to see Mrs Nelson for some

20 assistance.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. When you went to see her in her office about it, I think

23 it is right that she made comments to you that you, as

24 it were, should have sent for assistance at the time.

25 A. Yes, she did.





1 Q. Is that fair?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is talking to her.

4 A. Yes, Rosemary said it.

5 Q. Tell us about that, please. She was saying: why didn't

6 you call for me at the time?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was your response? What went through your mind

9 when she said that?

10 A. I really didn't want to bring Rosemary down on the

11 street to that incident, where soldiers would abuse her.

12 I had been with Rosemary when she had been abused by

13 soldiers, where they have said things about her looks.

14 I didn't really want to bring Rosemary down into that

15 situation.

16 Q. So it was your concern for her that prevented you from

17 doing that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was there no one else at the office that you perhaps

20 could have used?

21 A. There probably would have been, yes, but if I had have

22 contacted the office, Rosemary herself would have come

23 down.

24 Q. I see. Now, you say that you have heard soldiers -- I

25 think you said being abusive.





1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Could you help me, first of all, by telling me the sort

3 of comments that you are referring to?

4 A. Her face, about her looks, about her being a Provo,

5 a Provo sympathiser.

6 Q. So, abusive remarks.

7 A. Abusive -- yes.

8 Q. Having kindly told me that, could you, please, tell me

9 the frequency with which those remarks were witnessed by

10 yourself?

11 A. Only on two or three occasions, it would have been.

12 Q. Were there other occasions, other than those witnessed

13 by yourself?

14 A. Rosemary had told me there was, yes.

15 Q. I was going to ask you that. She had told you, had she?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many times -- I mean, you obviously perhaps can't be

18 precise, but being general about it, how many times did

19 she say it had happened?

20 A. She didn't really give a figure but she did comment to

21 me one time that it was like water off a duck's back.

22 So from that I took it, it was right and often she was

23 receiving it.

24 Q. Obviously you knew her for many, many years but I have

25 given you a date of 1996.





1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Please help us with the time period over which you

3 witnessed these incidents and also that she told you

4 about them.

5 A. It would have been from around that date, 1996.

6 Q. You mean either side?

7 A. Either side, yes. Just before it up until, I suppose,

8 her death.

9 Q. Please feel free to disagree with me, six months either

10 way, would you say, or is that not right?

11 A. I couldn't be sure.

12 Q. These were comments made by the Army. Is that right?

13 A. And police officers.

14 Q. And police?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Just breaking it down, did you witness both police and

17 Army?

18 A. I witnessed Army saying it to Rosemary, but police

19 officers have actually said it to me when Rosemary

20 wasn't present.

21 Q. I see. So we have got you being with her --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- when things were said by who?

24 A. By soldiers.

25 Q. By solders. What were those things, and when and where





1 were they?

2 A. It was an incident in William Street, Lurgan. I was

3 with Rosemary in Rosemary's office.

4 Q. I am going to come to that in a moment.

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Are there other occasions or not?

7 A. That would have been the only occasion when Rosemary

8 would have been present -- that I was present when

9 Rosemary was threatened.

10 Q. Right, and that was a soldier?

11 A. That was a soldier.

12 Q. So when did she tell you police had abused her?

13 A. No, police had said it to me.

14 Q. They had said it to you.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What had they said to you? When was that?

17 A. It was another incident on the Portadown Road. I was

18 stopped and I said I was going to make a formal

19 complaint, and they told me to go to Provie Rosy.

20 Q. As far as you were concerned, what was your personal

21 reaction to these sorts of remarks?

22 A. I thought it was uncalled for. It wasn't right.

23 Q. And her reaction?

24 A. She seemed to be -- she just passed it off. If I spoke

25 to Rosemary about it, she just shrugged her shoulders,





1 you know. It is the normal thing, sort of thing.

2 Q. Again, these are my words but did you find it odd that

3 she reacted in that way? Did you, as it were, say to

4 her, "Come on, you have got to take this seriously", or

5 did you think it was a fair reaction?

6 A. It would have been a fair reaction from Rosemary.

7 Q. Why?

8 A. Rosemary was the type of person that didn't really let

9 anything get to her.

10 Q. Did that have anything to do with her facial

11 disfigurement, do you think?

12 A. Possibly, I would think so, yes.

13 Q. Was there anything or very much said about that when she

14 was younger?

15 A. In the circle of friends, no, no.

16 Q. I think there was an incident that you tell us about in

17 your statement to the Inquiry involving being at

18 a police station, Lurgan police station.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Your cousin was there.

21 A. Yes, that is the incident.

22 Q. That is the one you are talking about. I just wanted to

23 be clear.

24 A. Yes, the Portadown Road incident.

25 Q. When there was a reference to go and get who? What was





1 said?

2 A. Provo Rosy.

3 Q. But you didn't tell her about that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What was the reason for not telling her about that?

6 A. There was no reason, nothing particular.

7 Q. Perhaps given her reaction previously.

8 A. You know, she was going through that daily. I didn't

9 just want to bring it up.

10 Q. Did you in fact go and get her?

11 A. I went over to her office and went back to the police

12 station with a member of staff out of Rosemary's office

13 and made a complaint.

14 Q. About?

15 A. About the incident on the Portadown Road and about what

16 they said about Rosemary.

17 Q. So what the policeman said to you in the police

18 station --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- you made a complaint about.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us what happened to that complaint?

23 A. It never went any further.

24 Q. I am sorry, you will forgive me, that covers many

25 options. You made a complaint --





1 A. I made a complaint.

2 Q. -- at the police station, did you?

3 A. Yes. And that was it. I just made the complaint and

4 made one in Rosemary's office, so it was logged.

5 Q. Did you not, as it were, follow it up?

6 A. No. I didn't.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. There was that many complaints. You know, that wouldn't

9 have been one that I would have followed up.

10 Q. Because?

11 A. It wouldn't have been serious enough.

12 Q. Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you

13 felt that you had done sufficiently --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- by making the complaint --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- by registering the fact?

18 A. Yes, I had registered --

19 Q. And you yourself didn't feel the need to follow it

20 through --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- to gain any further satisfaction or progress with it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Is that a fair way of putting it?

25 A. Yes.





1 Q. I would ask you, because it is not mentioned -- and we

2 can look at them in due course -- in your statement to

3 the murder investigation team or to the Pat Finucane

4 Centre, this incident that we have just spoken about,

5 "Go and get Provie Rosy", it is not mentioned in those

6 statements.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is there any reason for that?

9 A. No, there's no reason for it. There's that many things

10 that happened in the space of time with myself and with

11 my family that it's impossible to mention everything.

12 Q. But, as far as you are concerned, sitting here today, do

13 you remember that clearly?

14 A. I remember it clearly.

15 Q. And you are telling us that it did take place.

16 A. It did take place.

17 Q. When about the Garvaghy Road? Were you ever present

18 there with Mrs Nelson at times of tension?

19 A. Never, no.

20 Q. Because I think in your statement again you mention her

21 taking some flak there. Is that things that were told

22 to you?

23 A. Well, it's things that were told. It's also -- it would

24 have been common knowledge of newsreel footage, you

25 know.





1 Q. We are all aware of that, I think, but I just wanted to

2 be sure that you personally weren't there.

3 A. No, I wasn't.

4 Q. You can't help us with that.

5 I want to move on now, if I may, to an incident that

6 I think you have referred to about five minutes ago on

7 Williams Street.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were at Mrs Nelson's office in relation to another

10 incident that you were raising complaint about.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Can you remember the date of all this, that you were at

13 the office?

14 A. I can't.

15 Q. As I say, it is not meant to be a test of your memory.

16 A. I know.

17 Q. Because it was 11 years ago. Take it from me, you don't

18 mention it in your statement to the Inquiry but if we

19 could, please, put up on the screen, RNI-215-103

20 (displayed), we can see, third line down, this being

21 your statement on Wednesday 29th October 1997. Does

22 that sound right, looking at this?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were in the office and, just to set the scene, you

25 were with Mrs Nelson, were you?





1 A. I was, yes.

2 Q. At the risk of stating the obvious, in her office?

3 A. Her office, yes.

4 Q. When your attention was brought to what was going on

5 outside.

6 A. That is right.

7 Q. And you went down the stairs, I think.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Out into the street.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. I think Mrs Nelson came with you, is that right?

12 A. She did, yes.

13 Q. Can you remember who, as it were, went first?

14 A. I was first.

15 Q. You went down on to the street with Mrs Nelson.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who did you see on the street?

18 A. There was a foot patrol of soldiers.

19 Q. How many did you see?

20 A. I only seen one at that particular time, across the

21 street.

22 Q. I think that soldier was indicating to you.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that right?

25 A. That's right.





1 Q. What did you and Mrs Nelson do?

2 A. The soldier said that he would do the same with me as he

3 had done with a fellow on the street. That was the

4 incident. I was going towards the soldier and Rosemary

5 passed me and she got to the soldier first. She said to

6 the soldier that she heard him threaten me. At that the

7 soldier, very close to Rosemary's face, told Rosemary

8 that she knows what they have got in store for her.

9 Q. Just pause there, because there is a little bit of

10 information there.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. So you are going towards the soldier.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And he said words to the effect that he was going to do

15 the same to you.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then Mrs Nelson sort of came past you.

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And said that she had heard him threaten you.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What then did the soldier say?

24 A. He said to Rosemary -- the exact words I'm not sure, but

25 it was, "You know what we've got in store for you", or





1 words to that effect, "You know what we are going to do

2 to you".

3 Q. Just breaking that down first of all, what did, if

4 anything, she say?

5 A. She asked was he threatening her then.

6 Q. What was his response?

7 A. His response, again he just said, "You know what we've

8 got in store for you".

9 Q. He just repeated himself.

10 A. He just repeated himself.

11 Q. Did you say anything?

12 A. I didn't at that point, no.

13 Q. As regards the conversation, if you can call it that,

14 between Mrs Nelson and the soldier is concerned,

15 describe, please, the way in which that was conducted in

16 terms of volume and proximity between the two of them?

17 A. The proximity was that they were face-to-face, maybe

18 four inches apart, and in a very, very quiet voice. It

19 was said in a quiet voice. It wasn't a rage or a shout,

20 it was quiet.

21 Q. Could you tell us, please, how would you describe the

22 atmosphere at this point on the street?

23 A. Very tense.

24 Q. I wonder if we could, please, call on to the screen at

25 the same time, please, two separate pages. First of all





1 RNI-215-104 (displayed). Thank you. Also RNI-840-145

2 (displayed).

3 If we look at the document on the left first of all,

4 we can see "C150" roughly in the middle of the page. If

5 we highlight from two lines above that:

6 "The soldier then shouted out ..."

7 Thank you. This is your statement that we have

8 already seen, given on 28th March 2000:

9 "The soldier then shouted out 'I'll do the fucking

10 same with you'. I started to walk over to the soldier

11 and Rosemary ran past me and shouted, 'I heard you

12 threaten ...' The soldier then started to abuse

13 Rosemary. He made remarks about her face, stated that

14 she was ugly and that she was a Provie bastard for

15 getting them out of prison. The soldier then told

16 Rosemary that he was going to nut her or do her, or

17 words to that effect. Rosemary told the soldier that he

18 had threatened her. One of Rosemary's members of staff,

19 a lady called Annette ..."

20 Then it goes into other matters. If you look to the

21 right-hand side of the screen we have got your statement

22 to the Inquiry, and if we can highlight eight lines down

23 in paragraph 20 to the conclusion of the page:

24 "As we were discussing this ... pointed out

25 a soldier across the road and said 'That was the one





1 that did it'. Rosemary and I then left the office and

2 approached the soldier. As we approached him, the

3 soldier stated to me, 'I'd fucking do the same to you'.

4 Rosemary Nelson then approached the soldier and stated

5 'I witnessed you threatening ...'. I think if Rosemary

6 had not gone ahead of me at that point and said that to

7 the soldier, I would have attacked him. I was that

8 angry.

9 Rosemary and the soldier were face-to-face, only

10 a couple of feet apart from each other. I was stood

11 slightly behind Rosemary. The soldier then said 'You

12 know what I've fucking got in line for you, I'm going to

13 nut you' or words to that effect. I told the soldier

14 that 'I heard you threatening Rosemary Nelson'."

15 I will turn over the page in a moment. In your

16 statement given some years ago, in 2000, you mention

17 that the soldier was abusing Rosemary Nelson, making

18 remarks about her, but you don't seem to mention that to

19 us today or in your Inquiry statement. So you will

20 forgive me for just asking you, is that now what you say

21 happened?

22 A. That is what happened, what is on the right-hand page.

23 Q. So the soldier didn't abuse her first of all. He didn't

24 state that she was ugly.

25 A. No. If he did, it was -- to tell you the truth, I'm not





1 sure, it's that long ago. The bit about nutting, I'm

2 not sure if I heard that. "We're going to do the same

3 to you", that was to me, he was talking to me about

4 that. "You know what we've got in store for you", that

5 was to Rosemary. I'm not sure about nutting. It was

6 a whisper. He was actually whispering to Rosemary. It

7 was that low, I could just barely hear it. Nobody else

8 would have heard it.

9 Q. Just to cover this point, did Mrs Nelson tell you

10 afterwards what had been said to her?

11 A. No, I don't think so.

12 Q. Are you able to describe the soldier or say where he was

13 from, the regiment or ... I don't want his name but ...

14 A. It was RIR. He was small, stocky, full-faced. I don't

15 know his name.

16 Q. Just before I move on a little bit, you have got those

17 in front of you. Just tell us now, please, taking it

18 from the point that you got out there, what was said.

19 A. First of all to me, "I'd do the fucking same to you".

20 That was to me. Rosemary then run past me, said to the

21 soldier, "I heard you threaten". The soldier, in

22 a whisper, up to Rosemary's face, what I heard him

23 saying was, "You know what we've got in store for you".

24 That is what I heard.

25 Q. But you accept that there are variations --





1 A. I do accept it, yes.

2 Q. -- in these two statements?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. One given some time ago but albeit closer to the events

5 in question.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If we could just turn over to the next page of

8 RNI-840-146, please. I am sorry, it is entirely my

9 fault. Could we just go back to RNI-840-145 (displayed)

10 because it won't make sense otherwise. The bottom line

11 you can see:

12 "It is quite sinister how the soldiers made

13 these ..."

14 Then we turn the page, RNI-840-146 (displayed):

15 "... remarks to Rosemary. He was right in her face

16 but kept his voice quite calm. I don't think anyone but

17 Rosemary and I could have heard what he said because he

18 was so close to her. Rosemary did not respond to the

19 soldier's remarks and instead we backed away and made

20 statements in her office."

21 Just to move on in this incident, is that your

22 recollection now, that you went back to her office?

23 A. Yes, that is what we would have done.

24 Q. Just tell me, please, what was the atmosphere and the

25 nature of the discussion between you and Mrs Nelson once





1 you got back to the office?

2 A. In the office I think another member of staff --

3 whenever we went back to the office, I didn't make

4 a statement in Rosemary's office at that particular

5 time. I went to Lurgan police station with a member of

6 staff out of Rosemary's office.

7 Q. But that was in relation to the incident that had caused

8 you to go down on to the street?

9 A. Yes, that is right.

10 Q. But what I am asking you is you, on your account to us,

11 if you will forgive me for saying so, there has been

12 a rather nasty face-to-face encounter in the street with

13 a soldier. It could have developed into something

14 worse. It didn't. You are back in the office were

15 Mrs Nelson. What was the atmosphere? What was

16 discussed between the two of you?

17 A. Rosemary was well used to it. That is what she told me

18 in the office. I just made a statement, just like that

19 statement, in Rosemary's office. That was after I come

20 back to from the police station.

21 Q. I was just going to ask you that. Did you go up to the

22 office and discuss things with her, go to the police

23 station and come back?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that right?





1 A. That's right, yes.

2 Q. You made a statement to her?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You made a statement at the police station.

5 A. The police station I made a statement.

6 Q. Because if we could just have paragraph 24 of the

7 right-hand page enlarged, please, you say to the

8 Inquiry:

9 "I remember that afterwards, when we were inside

10 Rosemary's offices, Rosemary and I discussed what had

11 happened. I said that it was ridiculous what the

12 soldier had said to her. I do not think that Rosemary

13 responded. It was clear to me that she was used to that

14 kind of abuse."

15 Does that sound right to you?

16 A. That sounds right. That wasn't a statement that I made.

17 This was me -- that was just a conversation.

18 Q. Yes, no, I understand that, but you were just discussing

19 it with her --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- in the office, and again I don't want to put words in

22 your mouth but it seems her reaction was very

23 level-headed.

24 A. It was.

25 Q. Is that a fair comment?





1 A. That is a fair comment.

2 Q. What about a complaint about this behaviour of the

3 soldier? Did you say to Mrs Nelson, "This is an

4 outrage, I want to complain"?

5 A. In relation to?

6 Q. The nutting, the in her face abuse, and so on and so

7 forth. Not the original reason for you going down on to

8 the street.

9 A. No.

10 Q. You didn't?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. But you did go and make a complaint about the incident

13 that had brought you down on to the street.

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Perhaps obviously the question I want to ask you is why

16 was it, then, that you didn't either yourself or

17 persuade Mrs Nelson to lodge a complaint about the abuse

18 levelled at her, and to an extent you, by the soldier?

19 A. I don't think Rosemary would have wanted it.

20 Q. But did you ask her?

21 A. No. What I done was put it in writing in Rosemary's

22 office in case anything had happened. It was there, it

23 happened and it was logged.

24 Q. Again, so we are clear about this, it was logged means

25 the incident with the soldier shouting in your faces, in





1 her face?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I am sorry, not shouting but whispering, latterly.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you wrote it or you spoke and she wrote it? What

6 happened?

7 A. I think it was a member of staff.

8 Q. In any event, to your mind, when you left the office for

9 good that day, there was a record of what had happened

10 in the street.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But -- and you will forgive me for putting it this

13 way -- this was another occasion when you felt your

14 role, your job was done by logging a incident as opposed

15 to taking it forward as a complaint. Is that fair?

16 A. That is fair, yes.

17 Q. Because, if we could put up on to the screen RNI-833-117

18 (displayed), this is an another statement given to the

19 police concerning an incident I don't want to trouble

20 you with but we can see it is a statement from yourself

21 given on 29th October 1997; yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It involves a complaint matter by you -- yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- concerning the security services. This was given the





1 same day, I think, as the incident involving the

2 soldier.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. But again no mention of the incident with the soldier in

5 it by you.

6 A. No.

7 Q. For the reasons that you have already told us about?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. As you sit here today, is there any doubt in your mind

10 about what went on on the street with Mrs Nelson?

11 A. Absolutely no doubt.

12 MR SAVILL: I would like to move on in a moment to

13 a slightly different area, but before I do, I can just

14 say this, sir, that this witness deals not only with

15 matters involving complaints, as will be no doubt in the

16 knowledge of those present today, but also in relation

17 to certain security force activity-related matters and

18 indeed the scene. So, unusually, we have a witness

19 dealing with a number of matters and I am now going to

20 turn to some of those, if I may.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you for the explanation.

22 MR SAVILL: I would like you just to cast your mind back,

23 please, to the night before the day Mrs Nelson was

24 murdered. So we are just changing gear.

25 A. Okay.





1 Q. That evening you got in your car and went out and

2 I believe you saw some police Land Rovers.

3 A. That is right.

4 Q. Can you tell us about that?

5 A. There was a helicopter had been hovering for quite some

6 time and I went out to look for my son, because whenever

7 there was any trouble in the estate I wanted him in,

8 indoors. The helicopter was over Tannaghmore School

9 direction and I went up that direction. I turned off

10 Lake Street into North Circular Road. There was

11 a police Land Rover just at the junction of Lake Street

12 and North Circular Road. On North Circular Road and at

13 the back of the school, outside the gates there was two

14 Army Land Rovers. There was no checkpoints, there was

15 no personnel on the road, these vehicles were just

16 sitting. I went back home.

17 Q. Could I ask, please, for RNI-835-236 to come up on to

18 the screen (displayed)? This is a statement that you

19 gave to the Pat Finucane Centre. If we could just

20 highlight the second paragraph, although it has not got

21 a gap between that and the first paragraph, that begins:

22 "I got in my car ..."

23 We can read here:

24 "I got in my car and went to Tannaghmore along

25 Lake Street from Levin at about 6.45 pm. There was





1 a police Land Rover just before the school, just past

2 Ashford Park and North Circular Road. I continued right

3 into North Circular Road and saw two RIR Land Rovers

4 close to Lake Street. There was no checkpoint, just the

5 vehicles with soldiers and police sitting in them. I

6 went on home and found my son in a friend's house."

7 Again, that is not quite what you have just said but

8 is that an accurate account in the statement?

9 A. That is accurate, yes.

10 Q. I won't turn over the page but that statement was given

11 on 24th March 1999. Just if we can take stock in our

12 own minds of what you say. There was a police

13 Land Rover just before the school, just past

14 Ashford Park and North Circular Road. Then into North

15 Circular Road two Land Rovers close to Lake Street.

16 Can we just call up RNI-833-116 (displayed) and if

17 it needs me to say it, turn it round. Thank you.

18 It is not entirely clear at first blush what some of

19 the names are but you will be very familiar with the

20 area and we have got some indicators on there of VCP,

21 home, scene; yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you just familiarise yourself with that? You can

24 see Kilwilke Estate beneath "Car Fire".

25 A. Yes.





1 Q. Now, can you tell us, please, where it was that you saw

2 these Land Rovers, using some of the markers on the map?

3 Because you said in your statement there was a police

4 Land Rover just before the school, just past

5 Ashford Park and North Circular Road.

6 A. Yes, where it says "Scene" if you come down, straight

7 down, just up a bit, back up towards school.

8 Q. When you say back up, you mean along the road?

9 A. Along the road, yes. Stop.

10 Q. There?

11 A. Just in around that junction.

12 Q. That is the police Land Rover just before the school,

13 just past Ashford Park and North Circular Road.

14 A. That is right.

15 Q. Then you turned right into North Circular Road and saw

16 two RIR Land Rovers.

17 A. Stop.

18 Q. There?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that right?

21 A. That would be right, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, changing gear again ever so slightly, I

23 would like to just move forward to the next morning, the

24 day of Mrs Nelson's murder.

25 A. Okay.





1 Q. You, I think, were present at some stage after the

2 explosion?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. And for what must have been a distressing scene, please

5 be assured I'm not going to ask you to repeat any of

6 that distressing detail.

7 Were you out and about that morning?

8 A. I had brought my daughter to Tannaghmore School, dropped

9 her off to school. Then I had to go to Crumlin for

10 a bit of business with my insurance broker. So -- and

11 that is why I was out.

12 Q. I think you came into the vicinity of the explosion and

13 parked your car.

14 A. That was later on, when there was an awful lot of

15 security force activity in the estate when I come back

16 from Crumlin.

17 Q. Yes. What I am saying is you went off and did your own

18 personal business, and then you came back and came near

19 the scene.

20 A. I came back home.

21 Q. Oh, and went out again?

22 A. Went out again to get my son, who was at work.

23 Q. I see.

24 A. To bring him home for his lunch.

25 Q. When you were out doing that, you parked your car --





1 A. That's when I came across the screen.

2 Q. You parked your car and walked down to the scene.

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. I think, if we look to the left of the second yellow

5 blob you made, there is an "A", handwritten; yes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You have helpfully indicated in your statement to the

8 Inquiry that that is where you parked.

9 A. That's where I would have parked.

10 Q. You then walked on foot down towards Mrs Nelson's car.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On the way down to the car you came across, I believe,

13 some debris?

14 A. That is right.

15 Q. Whereabouts was that? We have got the magic marker.

16 Roughly.

17 A. It was just roughly 20 yards from Rosemary's car.

18 Q. Right. So we can see the arrow saying "Scene". Not

19 surprisingly, the debris, bearing in mind the journey

20 the car took across the junction, would be around that

21 area. Now, what in fact was it that you came across?

22 A. It was a handbag.

23 Q. Where was that?

24 A. That was about 20 yards from the car, on the road.

25 Q. What did you do, if anything with that?





1 A. I picked it up.

2 Q. Now, you will forgive me for saying so but that may or

3 may not be a curious thing to have done. Why did you do

4 it?

5 A. I don't really know. I could see that there had been an

6 explosion, I could see Rosemary, I knew it was

7 Rosemary's handbag, it couldn't have been anyone else.

8 Q. I was just going to ask you that. How did you know it

9 was her handbag?

10 A. I just took it for granted that it was.

11 Q. Oh, so you didn't know.

12 A. No, I actually didn't know that was Rosemary's. I took

13 it for granted it was.

14 Q. Where was it?

15 A. It was lying on the road.

16 Q. So you picked it up and then I think you continued

17 towards the car?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Then did you see anything else?

20 A. An umbrella.

21 Q. An umbrella?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did you do with that?

24 A. I picked it up as well.

25 Q. As I said, I don't want to trouble you with this but you





1 came closer to the car?

2 A. Very close, yes.

3 Q. And you were still holding the umbrella and the handbag?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you end up doing with those two items?

6 A. A police officer took them off me.

7 Q. So you weren't very far from the car, you say. What

8 were the circumstances of this police officer getting

9 involved with you?

10 A. He said that I was walking all over a crime scene.

11 Q. Which was probably right.

12 A. It was right, yes.

13 Q. What did he do with you and the items that you had in

14 your hands?

15 A. He took the items off me and by that stage there was

16 a cordon put up and I was placed behind the cordon.

17 Q. You were?

18 A. I was told to get behind the cordon.

19 Q. Where did you in fact go behind the cordon?

20 A. It was up at Tannaghmore School, just at the gates of

21 Tannaghmore School.

22 Q. Is that off the map?

23 A. No, it is not.

24 Q. It is marked actually, you can see "Primary ..." So you

25 were around that area, were you?





1 A. I was still in the same area.

2 Q. But by this time I presume there was quite a crowd

3 gathering?

4 A. Yes, there was.

5 Q. Were any other members of your family with you at that

6 point?

7 A. At that point my -- I was on my own. My wife had walked

8 up at that point.

9 Q. Did you stay there with your wife, behind the cordon?

10 A. No, we decided to go back home again.

11 Q. How long had you been there roughly?

12 A. Roughly 10, 15, 20 minutes. It's hard to say.

13 Q. Yes. What did you and your wife actually do?

14 A. I approached the soldier at the cordon and asked could

15 I get my car out because it was at the other side. He

16 said, yes. I got into my car, I came underneath the

17 tape that had -- the soldier held it up, and proceeded

18 home down Lake Street.

19 Q. So you went under the cordon. With your wife?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were there for about 10 minutes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Got in the car and drove home.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. With your wife?





1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, as you were leaving the scene, did you have a clear

3 run home?

4 A. No, I was stopped.

5 Q. Who were you stopped by?

6 A. Members of the RIR at the junction of North Circular

7 Road and Lake Street.

8 Q. Can you just mark that for us?

9 A. That is just there.

10 Q. Yes. Sir, we can see that, I think, in red. Thank you.

11 Now, you say you were stopped by members, I think

12 you said, of the RIR. So vehicles, how many people?

13 A. Two Land Rovers, eight soldiers, but only one soldier

14 came to me.

15 Q. Why, the obvious question, had they stopped you?

16 A. To search the car.

17 Q. Tell us, please, now, how that went on?

18 A. He told me he wanted to search the car, for me to open

19 the boot. I got out of the car, opened the boot and he

20 never came near the boot of the car. Instead he got

21 down on one knee, looked under my car and says, "The one

22 we put under this car has fell off".

23 Q. "The one we put under ..."

24 A. "... this car has fell off."

25 Q. Were there any other people stood around at that point?





1 A. Soldiers, just soldiers.

2 Q. That had been in the same vehicle?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there any reaction from them?

5 A. Laughter.

6 Q. What was your reaction?

7 A. Disgust. At that he just walked away.

8 Q. Had you been able to observe the behaviour of any of the

9 security forces at the scene itself, while you had been

10 down there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How would you say that that behaviour was manifested?

13 A. I'm not sure it was -- there was a lot of noise, there

14 was a lot of -- there was a lot of people there. There

15 was a lot of anger from people towards --

16 Q. Very tense?

17 A. -- soldiers.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. You know, it was really, really hard to say.

20 Q. The soldiers had, presumably, a difficult job to do?

21 A. I would say so.

22 Q. Because of the prevailing atmosphere of the crowd and

23 obviously the tragic events that were literally

24 unfolding before everybody's eyes.

25 A. Yes.





1 Q. So you got back in your car after this search, as you

2 have put it.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you went where?

5 A. I went home.

6 Q. Did you then stay at home for the rest of the day?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. What did you do?

9 A. I went back up again on foot.

10 Q. You? Not your wife?

11 A. Me, my wife came with me.

12 Q. She came with you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did you go and why?

15 A. Well, my daughter and my son, they were still up there

16 and things were getting really, really tense at this

17 point and I wanted to get them down home, so we walked

18 back up again.

19 Q. I'm sorry, when you say back up again --

20 A. Back up towards Tannaghmore School.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. We didn't go the full way up. We didn't need to.

23 Q. Why was that?

24 A. My son and daughter, they were coming home.

25 Q. So you met them halfway?





1 A. I met them halfway.

2 Q. Was this an uneventful trip out?

3 A. No, it was not. I went -- we went via Kilwilke Gardens.

4 Q. Can you show us where this is? It may not be marked.

5 A. Yes, this should be coming down -- it is on Lake Street,

6 Kilwilke Gardens are there.

7 Q. So round about there?

8 A. Round about there.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. We turned right on to Lake Street, towards

11 Tannaghmore School and just there, just back -- just

12 there, three Army Land Rovers were coming down that road

13 past us.

14 Q. Now, forgive me, when you say past you, do you mean from

15 behind --

16 A. No, they were coming from Tannaghmore.

17 Q. So you saw them coming towards you?

18 A. Yes, we saw them coming towards us.

19 Q. How many were there?

20 A. Three. They were going pretty slow but the middle one

21 of the three really slowed down to almost stop. The

22 back doors opened and a doll was threw out on to the

23 road and they shouted, "Go and scrape her up",

24 Q. Did they in fact stop or --

25 A. No, they didn't stop, the doors closed and they drove





1 on.

2 Q. Let's just deal with this. Three Army Land Rovers.

3 A. Three Army Land Rovers.

4 Q. Driving close together?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How far apart were each of them?

7 A. A car length.

8 Q. What sort of pace were they going as they came towards

9 you?

10 A. Very, very slow, really slow.

11 Q. Jogging pace?

12 A. Yes. The first one passed us, the second one slowed

13 down to almost a stop.

14 Q. So all three came into view but slow speed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The middle one slowed down even further --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- as it, what, drew level with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And went past you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And a doll was thrown out of where?

23 A. Out of the back door.

24 Q. And words were said to the effect of, "Go and

25 scrape ...?





1 A. "Go and scrape her up" or "Go and cut her out", words to

2 that effect.

3 Q. Obviously I am asking you your opinion, but what do you

4 think that was relating to?

5 A. To Rosemary.

6 Q. What I want to ask you is, when these Land Rovers

7 approached you, you were walking down the road with your

8 wife.

9 A. That is right.

10 Q. Were you talking to her?

11 A. No, I actually think that my wife was a bit ahead of me.

12 There was lots of people walking up. There was

13 neighbours, there was, you know -- we weren't

14 side-by-side talking. You need to see the picture of

15 that street, that particular day.

16 Q. Full of people?

17 A. Full of people going up that road.

18 Q. We shouldn't have the image of you and your wife on your

19 own on a deserted pavement.

20 A. No.

21 Q. There was lots of people going in different directions.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So when these Land Rovers went past you, you didn't

24 presumably turn round and follow them go up the street?

25 A. No.





1 Q. I mean looking at them, not physically.

2 A. No, I looked at them.

3 Q. Because what I was going to ask you is if they went past

4 you and the doll was thrown out, how did you see it?

5 A. I looked up. They shouted. I looked round when they

6 shouted, the doll was thrown out.

7 Q. What was it that drew your attention to turn round and

8 look?

9 A. That was the shout.

10 Q. So there was the shout and then the doll?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, as far as the doll is concerned, did you go and

13 look at it?

14 A. I seen it. I never touched it. I never stopped with

15 it.

16 Q. So you saw it from where you were on the pavement.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that right?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Can you describe it to us?

21 A. It was a doll with no legs. It was a doll's head and

22 body, arms, no legs.

23 Q. I am not very good on dolls but there are big ones,

24 small ones --

25 A. Small. Nine inches approximately.





1 Q. At the risk of giving evidence myself, there are things,

2 I think, Barbie dolls.

3 A. Something of that, yes.

4 Q. That sort of doll?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But with no legs.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was your reaction when this happened?

9 A. Disgusted.

10 Q. But you didn't take any further action in relation to

11 it, did you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But at this point you had presumably the opportunity to

14 note the number of one or more of the vehicles?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Driving --

17 A. I would have had the opportunity. It never crossed my

18 mind to do it.

19 Q. Driving slowly. But you didn't?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You had the opportunity to pick the doll up, as it were,

22 as proof.

23 A. I didn't.

24 Q. You didn't do that.

25 A. No.





1 Q. And you made no complaint about it.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Please don't think I am criticising you. I am just

4 exploring with you your version of events and why it was

5 that you didn't do any of those things. Why was that?

6 A. First of all, I was really upset at what had happened,

7 and had been for a while from what happened. As for

8 taking complaints, I never ever took another complaint

9 against any member of the security forces from when

10 Rosemary died.

11 Q. What I was going to ask you, and I have been helpfully

12 reminded, in fact, is this wasn't the only incident that

13 day?

14 A. No.

15 Q. There were two, in fact very close in time to one

16 another. The joke about the bomb.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The doll and the comments.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Which in the context of that day were particularly

21 unpleasant.

22 A. Yes. Very unpleasant.

23 Q. But you made no complaint about either of them.

24 A. No.

25 Q. I wonder if we could put on to the screen, please,





1 RNI-215-106 (displayed).

2 This is, I think it says so, the fourth page of your

3 statement given to the police on 28th March 2000. In

4 fairness to you, if we could put up on to the same

5 screen, RNI-840-149 (displayed). Thank you. In

6 fairness to you, if we look at paragraph 34 on the

7 left-hand side, you refer to this statement, which I am

8 about to just take you through, and if we look in the

9 second line you say:

10 "This is a statement which I gave to the

11 Port Inquiry who were investigating Rosemary's murder.

12 This statement isn't entirely accurate."

13 Now, just pausing there, I believe what you are

14 saying there is that it is not the fault of the person

15 taking the statement but now, looking at the police

16 statement, certain things in it are wrong. Is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Because if we read on, you say:

20 "The statement records the events which took place

21 on the day of her murder in the wrong order. This

22 statement says that the incident in relation to the doll

23 took place first and prior to me going through the

24 checkpoint. I am certain that this is not the case and

25 that it was the other way round."





1 That is what you are saying to this Inquiry?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If we look at your statement to the police, if we look

4 five lines down:

5 "At approximately 1.30 pm to 1.40 pm I was at this

6 location when two Army Land Rover vehicles drove from

7 the scene along Lake Street towards the Antrim Road.

8 The rear Land Rover slowed down to about 10 miles an

9 hour."

10 So we can see we have got two and not three.

11 "The rear Land Rover slowed down ... The

12 Land Rover's doors opened slightly, sufficient for the

13 soldier passenger to put his head out to look back as he

14 had already passed me. The soldier then said, 'C150, go

15 and cut her fucking out of it'. C158, my wife, was with

16 meet at this point and we were standing on the school

17 side of the footpath in Lake Street. The soldier had

18 his military helmet on but I had a clear and

19 unobstructed view of him and identified him as the

20 soldier who had threatened Rosemary and myself in

21 Williams Street on 29th October 1997. The lighting at

22 that time was good. I had already moved my car from

23 where I had parked it earlier and it was now on the

24 other side of the cordon. With C158 I got into the car

25 after this was said ..."





1 I am sorry to hammer home the points --

2 A. I know. That statement is wrong.

3 Q. So the statement given to the police, so far as we have

4 read it, is wrong.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If we could highlight the bottom part of the right-hand

7 document, we will read on:

8 "With C158 I got into the car after this was said

9 and drove towards my home, when I was stopped at an Army

10 checkpoint on the junction of Lake Street and the North

11 Circular Road. There were two Land Rover vehicles at

12 this location, with four to five soldiers and a further

13 soldier who was looking underneath my car whilst it was

14 stationary. The soldier was on his knees when I saw him

15 but he then got up, shook his ahead and said 'Jesus, the

16 one we put underneath that car has fell off'. On

17 hearing this the other soldiers started laughing. All

18 of these soldiers were Irish."

19 Just taking stock, not only have you put the

20 incidents in a different order; yes?

21 A. Yes, that is the wrong order.

22 Q. But there are also details which are different in your

23 evidence to the Inquiry than there are in the statement

24 given in March 2000, involving detail of the Land Rovers

25 coming up and the doll being thrown out, because you





1 make no mention of that, but also the situation with the

2 soldier on his knees looking underneath the car, you say

3 you were stopped at a checkpoint.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Again, just in fairness to you, you are saying that you

6 were muddled, are you, that when you gave your statement

7 in March 2000 --

8 A. Yes, the statement is in the wrong order.

9 Q. What about the details in it?

10 A. The details -- the three Land Rovers. My recollection

11 sitting here now, there was three Land Rovers. And it

12 was the back doors of the second Land Rover that opened.

13 It was not a passenger door, it was the back door.

14 Q. If we could just take stock of the situation then. You

15 are saying that whatever the order these happened in,

16 they did happen.

17 A. They did happen.

18 Q. But you took no further action in relation to any of

19 them.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Looking back, do you think that you should have done?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were it to be suggested to you by me that you may have

24 made these remarks for other purposes, to get people

25 into trouble, that sort of thing, because you had an axe





1 to grind for whatever reason -- I can see you shaking

2 your head.

3 A. Definitely not.

4 Q. You understand why I put that suggestion to you?

5 A. I understand.

6 Q. What would you say to the Inquiry and the Panel about

7 that suggestion, about any of the things we have talked

8 about and you have told us about this morning?

9 A. I definitely would not -- everything I have said is

10 true. I wouldn't tell lies to get somebody else into

11 trouble for any reason. But everything I have said is

12 true. Some of it might be not in the order that it

13 happened in, but I would not tell lies, definitely not

14 under oath.

15 Q. You identified in your statement to the police the

16 soldier involved as making these remarks out the back of

17 the Land Rover as the one that had been involved -- your

18 facial expression anticipates my question.

19 A. I did not. I would not have recognised the soldier.

20 Q. So we can clear this up, I hope by putting it in this

21 way. The soldier involved on Williams Street with you

22 and Mrs Nelson, you didn't see subsequently in relation

23 to the other matters that you've told us.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Is that accurate?





1 A. That's accurate.

2 Q. Finally, a question that is put to all witnesses who

3 come to give evidence to this Inquiry is this: is there

4 anything that you feel, that we, you and I, haven't

5 talked about this morning, that you would like to tell

6 the Inquiry about before you finish your evidence?

7 A. No, no.

8 MR SAVILL: In that case, thank you very much.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for coming to give

10 evidence.

11 Yes, Mr Donaldson?

12 MR DONALDSON: Sir, there are some matters we would like to

13 raise with Mr Savill if you would give us a little time.


15 MR DONALDSON: I should say, sir, that I think you

16 indicated that there might be -- we would like a longer

17 break because we would like time for a little

18 refreshment ourselves and then I would like to speak

19 perhaps before that to Mr Savill.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. You can have 20 minutes.

21 MR DONALDSON: That is very kind of you, sir.

22 MR SAVILL: Is that five minutes for discussion with me and

23 15 for refreshments?

24 THE CHAIRMAN: The screen will be closed at ten past. All

25 right?





1 MR DONALDSON: That doesn't give us very much time.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: It will be closed as quarter past and you

3 have got to speak quickly to each other in that time.

4 Would you now sit down, Mr Donaldson?

5 It is to Mr Donaldson that I have been speaking. He

6 has been speaking to me. That is for the record.

7 Before the witness leaves, would you, please,

8 confirm that all the cameras have been switched off,

9 Mr [name deleted]?

10 MR [NAME DELETED]: Yes, sir, all the cameras are off.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you, please, escort the witness out,

12 please, and remain in the vicinity of the witness until

13 he is asked to come back, if he is asked to come back.

14 The witness has now left the hearing chamber and

15 those within the hearing chamber can now leave, but

16 everyone must be back here at the very latest by quarter

17 past, when the doors will be shut.

18 (11.55 am)

19 (Short break)

20 (12.20 pm)

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Before you address us, Mr Currans, we will go

22 through the checklist.

23 Is the public area screen fully in place, locked and

24 the key secured?

25 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.





1 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the fire doors on either side of the

2 screens closed?

3 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the technical support screens in place

5 and securely fastened?

6 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Is anyone other than the Inquiry personnel

8 and the Full Participants' legal representatives seated

9 in the body of this chamber?

10 MR CURRANS: No, sir.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr [name deleted], can you confirm, please, that

12 the two witness cameras have been switched off and

13 shrouded?

14 MR [NAME DELETED]: Yes, sir, they are.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: All the other cameras have been switched off?

16 MR [NAME DELETED]: Yes, they have.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Savill?

18 MR SAVILL: Sir, I don't propose to ask any further

19 questions of this witness.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

21 Mr Donaldson, we were notified of the nature of the

22 questions. We are satisfied that the questioning of

23 this witness has been more than adequate.

24 The witness can be released now. We will adjourn

25 until 1 o'clock on Monday.





1 (12.20 pm)

2 (The Inquiry adjourned until Monday,

3 16th June 2008 at 1.00 pm)




























C150 (sworn) ..................................... 2
Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 2