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Full Hearings

Hearing: 19th June 2008, day 38

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held at:
The Interpoint Centre
20-24 York Street
Belfast BT15 1AQ

on Thursday, 19th June 2008
commencing at 10.15 am

Day 38








1 Thursday, 19th June 2008

2 (10.15 am)


4 Questions by MR SAVILL

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Savill.

6 MR SAVILL: Thank you, sir.

7 Mr Campbell, I would like in due course to ask you

8 some questions, but first of all can we call up on to

9 the screen, please, RNI-843-010 (displayed). Now, you

10 will hopefully get used to me saying words to that

11 effect, and in front of you there is indeed a screen and

12 documents will appear on it. I hope that this is -- and

13 it is -- the first page of your statement made to this

14 Inquiry. Do you see that?

15 A. It is, yes.

16 Q. Could we just now flick over a few pages to RNI-843-014.

17 I think you will agree with me that that is your

18 signature at the bottom?

19 A. It is, yes.

20 Q. Dated 4th July 2007?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr Campbell, I am going to ask you about

23 some events some considerable time ago now, so hopefully

24 together we can explore them using the documents from

25 closer to the time and some questions from me?




1 A. Okay.

2 Q. Could you just, please, begin by telling us how you came

3 to be a full-time constable in the Royal Ulster

4 Constabulary?

5 A. I had been a full-time police reserve constable from

6 1987, and in 1996 I left the reserve and went in to the

7 training centre to become a regular constable. That was

8 in September 1996. And then after six months I was

9 allocated to the station at Lurgan as a full-time

10 constable.

11 Q. And I think that was spring time in 1997?

12 A. Roughly, correct, yes.

13 Q. Are you still stationed there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. No. How long were you stationed at Lurgan for?

16 A. In Lurgan? I was still in Lurgan up until February this

17 year.

18 Q. So very nearly up until today's date?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. From the time that you were stationed at Lurgan, what

21 activities were you involved in, please, as a police

22 officer? What was your job?

23 A. As soon as I was stationed there I was part of the

24 mobile support, doing ordinary section work on a shift

25 basis. And after about four years, three or four years




1 I can't remember -- a while it was -- I was then SDO,

2 a station duty officer, out there in the front enquiry

3 office.

4 Q. You will forgive me, SDO?

5 A. Station duty officer.

6 Q. Yes. At the time you joined Lurgan police station, did

7 you know someone called Shane McCrory?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you know him at the time that you became involved in

10 collecting him in the police car?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You didn't. Now, when you were working with the MSU,

13 could you just very briefly indicate to us what that

14 involved?

15 A. The MSU, if I can clarify, would have been a mobile

16 support unit. It was, like, the support for public

17 order. Maybe really at that round, my role was response

18 in the section, ordinary uniformed police, and I would

19 have been dealing with any calls, accidents, any reports

20 that come in to attend to the public.

21 Q. What was it that made you mobile? You had a car?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What sort of vehicle was that? Was it a saloon car?

24 A. Saloon. It would normally have been an armoured saloon

25 car.




1 Q. In the time that you joined Lurgan police station at the

2 beginning of 1997, please could you just give us

3 a snapshot of the atmosphere around the town bearing in

4 mind paramilitary activity; what was it like?

5 A. I couldn't really describe anything overly different

6 from the actual area. In the general atmosphere of

7 policing?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I came from another area of policing where you just had

10 to be very careful on your calls, where you were going

11 to, being wary and supporting not only yourself but

12 other officers to make sure that you didn't get any

13 problems through their situation, you know,

14 security-wise, and also just on public order-wise as

15 well.

16 Q. And as far as you were concerned, how much of your time

17 proportionately was spent dealing with, if you will

18 forgive my expression, run of the mill policing matters

19 as opposed to terrorist-related matters?

20 A. More of my time would have been with run of the mill, as

21 opposed to -- the terrorism was just one that you would

22 have been careful with on your daily patroling. But the

23 only one incident that was -- I can't remember what the

24 date of it was; I think it was in July -- there was

25 a terrorist incident within the town. But apart from




1 that, there was no other dealings with me personally on

2 my normal patroling.

3 Q. Thank you. And taking the beginning of 1997, spring

4 time 1997, as the fixed point, are you able to tell us

5 whether paramilitary activity was then at a similar

6 level to prior to that or after that?

7 A. Prior to, I wouldn't be able to comment on. I was just

8 new to the area, so I wouldn't have had any history of

9 the Lurgan area prior to that. But for a number of

10 years afterwards, it was always a thing that was

11 constantly given to us to be wary of.

12 Q. So you wouldn't have described 1997, the early part

13 thereof, as a particularly different atmosphere to that

14 which you had encountered --

15 A. Not that I was aware of.

16 Q. Thank you. Dealing with Mrs Rosemary Nelson, when you

17 arrived at Lurgan police station, had you ever heard of

18 her?

19 A. I can't remember the first time I would have heard of

20 her, but it was just in relation to, you know,

21 practices. She was one practice, there was various

22 other practices, but that was the only way I would have

23 known the name.

24 Q. So you didn't know her when you first went there?

25 A. No.




1 Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet her whilst you were

2 serving at Lurgan?

3 A. Not on a personal note. I can never remember --

4 recollect meeting her physically, even.

5 Q. No. And as far as your knowledge of her as a solicitor

6 in Lurgan, was that because you heard other police

7 officers talking about her or suspects talking about

8 her?

9 A. Yes. And same as a lot of other solicitors, you would

10 have just heard the name if somebody was attending to

11 a client. That is all that would come into my head in

12 relation to it.

13 Q. And were you particularly ever involved in the

14 interviewing of suspects, or not really? That wasn't

15 your role?

16 A. Well, it was my role. Just I wouldn't have had an awful

17 lot of people through custody.

18 Q. Because, really, the CID officers perhaps spent more

19 time interviewing than you would?

20 A. No, you would still have interviewed quite a lot, but

21 lots of the times it was just various -- in custody, you

22 would always have an interview for -- if it was a

23 serious offence, then certainly CID would be partaking

24 in the interviews. But as we said earlier, on run of

25 the mill interviews for assaults or things like that,




1 yes, I would have continued with those interviews in the

2 custody suite.

3 Q. Do you remember any of those occasions when suspects

4 requested Mrs Nelson as a solicitor?

5 A. I don't think on any of the ones that I had that

6 Mrs Nelson's practice was requested.

7 Q. Her practice was?

8 A. Requested.

9 Q. Requested.

10 A. By the arrested person.

11 Q. Were you aware of the type of practice she in fact had?

12 A. As --

13 Q. Type of clients, categories of clients she represented?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Not through anything you heard in and around the police

16 station?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And were you ever made aware of your colleagues' views

19 of Mrs Nelson at Lurgan police station?

20 A. My colleagues' views?

21 Q. Yes. Was she ever discussed?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Because what I wanted to ask you is that she represented

24 some high profile clients in Lurgan. Were you aware of

25 that?




1 A. Only in later years, you know, after -- in the

2 circumstances.

3 Q. Were you aware that she represented Colin Duffy?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You didn't know that?

6 A. No, I didn't know.

7 Q. Is that something I am telling you for the first time?

8 A. No. I am saying I knew that in later years. I wouldn't

9 have known it at any particular time.

10 Q. But were you aware that Mr Duffy at the end of 1996 had

11 been acquitted of a murder?

12 A. I was aware of that, yes.

13 Q. He was released, I think with no charge, in relation to

14 a double murder of two police officers in October of

15 1997. Did you know that at the time?

16 A. Yes, I was aware of that, yes.

17 Q. And that in November 1997 he had been arrested and

18 detained in relation to the stopping of a car and an

19 offence of grievous bodily harm. Were you aware that

20 of?

21 A. I can't remember that one.

22 Q. And that he was again released in December 1997. Do you

23 have any recollection of that?

24 A. If it was something in Edward Street in Lurgan, I think

25 I can remember him being arrested.




1 Q. What I want to ask you is were you aware of Mrs Nelson's

2 involvement in those cases?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So when you were sat on a break in the canteen or having

5 a drink after work with colleagues, Mrs Nelson's name

6 never cropped up. Is that your evidence?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Not in the context either of praise or other language?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What was your approach to Mrs Nelson, and indeed other

11 defence solicitors, at the time? What did you think of

12 their role?

13 A. I had no real opinion on their role, like. Everybody

14 was entitled to a solicitor and whatever solicitor that

15 may be, then I had no difference in any male, female or

16 who they were.

17 Q. Did you hear others express irritation as to the role of

18 defence solicitors?

19 A. Not in particular, no. Nothing -- some solicitors, you

20 know, you -- maybe not on a personal note, you know, on

21 a private note, but some people were just on their

22 normal behaviour more friendly with you or whatever, you

23 know, in relation to your client, you know, before you

24 went into an interview. But anything over and above

25 that, they were all really the same.




1 Q. So if I can perhaps help you, you are saying that there

2 were some solicitors that you and perhaps other officers

3 saw more of than others because you happened to be

4 questioning the client that they represented, and there

5 may be a degree of rapport that would build up over the

6 months?

7 A. Rapport would probably be a good way of putting it if

8 you met them on a regular basis.

9 Q. You would see them a lot in the police station, and I am

10 not going to say a friendship developed, but

11 a professional rapport; would that be fair?

12 A. That would be fair, yes.

13 Q. But you never had that with Mrs Nelson, and you say that

14 your view really is that solicitors were just doing

15 a job. Would that be a fair way of putting it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever receive the impression from high-ranking

18 officers, not necessarily those at Lurgan police

19 station, that there was any kind of ill feeling towards

20 the role of defence solicitors or Mrs Nelson?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I am not saying directly, but was there any impression

23 ever given to you that you can remember?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I want to just move on, if I may, to the incident




1 involving Mr McCrory.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It is quite a long time ago. It is one of those

4 incidents that involves who may have been sat where and

5 who may have said what, so if you can't remember we have

6 your statement and other documents, so please don't try

7 and guess. I am not testing your memory.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Do you actually recall, sitting there now, the

10 circumstances in which you went to collect Mr McCrory

11 and what happened?

12 A. I can remember driving up the town to collect

13 Mr McCrory.

14 Q. And just tell us, how did that come about? Can you

15 recall?

16 A. I can't recall exactly. I know that we were radioed but

17 I don't know -- as it says in my statement, I can't

18 remember whether that was directly through

19 communications or from the police officer at the

20 location at Wellworths.

21 Q. I hope it jogs your memory if I tell you that

22 Mr Burrows --

23 A. Yes, that is the police officer.

24 Q. -- radioed for assistance. Do you recollect that?

25 A. As I said before, I can't remember who it came from, the




1 request to call up at the time.

2 Q. But in any event -- and I don't mean to be rude -- you

3 were essentially going to perform a taxi service?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that the right way of putting it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recollect arriving at the Wellworths shop?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So again, being careful -- and I think you have a cipher

10 list with you -- can you tell us who was with you?

11 A. I can't remember. There is -- Constable Meake was one

12 and then the other constable, P224, were -- all three of

13 us were in the car, but with various things happening

14 that day I can't remember. I know that I -- I can

15 recollect myself being in the car.

16 Q. Were you driving?

17 A. I was driving, yes.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. And I can't remember whether it was P224 or

20 Constable Meeke.

21 Q. But in any event, those officers were with you and that

22 made a total of three, three officers, when you arrived?

23 A. That is what I cannot remember. I know that there was

24 definitely myself and one other. There may well have

25 been two others, but I just can't remember at that time.




1 Q. It may not matter, but in any event you arrived at the

2 Wellworths shop and I think I am right in saying that

3 Mr McCrory was then taken back to the police station,

4 and that is a very short drive, isn't it?

5 A. It is, yes.

6 Q. Five minutes or so, something like that?

7 A. It wouldn't even be that, just a couple of minutes.

8 Q. How well did you at this time know the officers that

9 were with you in the car, first of all?

10 A. Well, they were in my section that I worked with on

11 a shift basis, and from arriving in Lurgan in April,

12 they would have been my section up until, I think,

13 the December. So I never knew them before I arrived in

14 Lurgan, but I had been working with them for, what is

15 that, six months or so.

16 Q. Would it be fair to describe them as friends or just

17 colleagues?

18 A. You got to know them as friends, yes.

19 Q. And what about Mr Burrows?

20 A. Yes, as well, he worked in the police station but he

21 didn't work along with us, but they would have performed

22 different duties to ourselves but overlapping sometimes.

23 Q. I think you say that Mr Burrows used to normally work

24 at the NPU. What does that --

25 A. That is neighbourhood policing.




1 Q. Would you have described him as a friend or a colleague

2 at the time, or did you not --

3 A. Same again. He was a colleague but you got to know him

4 on a friendly basis.

5 Q. I don't intend to dwell on this for too long, but if we

6 could just, to be complete, call up on to the screen,

7 please, RNI-216-134 (displayed), this is your police

8 notebook?

9 A. It is, yes.

10 Q. And I think you can anticipate what I am going to ask

11 you. Could we have RNI-216-136 (displayed). We can see

12 at the top there:

13 "15.45, late duty. Detail by Sergeant [blank] to

14 JL70 with Constable Meeke, [P224]. 17.45, a break in

15 the rec room."

16 There is then some business involving a witness

17 statement at 20.00 hours. Can you just read that bit?

18 A. From what time?

19 Q. 20.00 hours. What is that word with "r"?

20 A. Resumed.

21 Q. "Resumed JL70 as above."

22 Then we jump forward to 23.45. What I just want to

23 ask you is that Mr McCrory in that period was collected

24 and brought back to the police station.

25 A. Yes.




1 Q. So there is no entry about that in your notebook.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Could you, please, help me as to why that might be?

4 A. It was -- on your general patrol, you would have done

5 a lot of things: preventative policing, et cetera,

6 driving around, looking out for crime, or whatever. If

7 there was anything of note to put in your notebook, you

8 would enter that in your notebook. But at that time

9 there was nothing of note to put until the incident at

10 23.45.

11 Q. So in essence what you are saying is nothing should be

12 read into the fact that there is no record of

13 Mr McCrory's pick-up and delivery in your notebook?

14 A. Yes. Hindsight would probably be a wonderful thing and

15 you could put it down, but in my light that was just --

16 somebody was getting into the car, I was bringing them

17 back to the police station.

18 Q. And indeed in fairness to you, the subsequent complaint

19 was made some time afterwards. So after you had in fact

20 completed your pocket notebook entry?

21 A. Yes, the notebook entry will be made at the time. As

22 soon as the incident at 23.45 was completed, I would

23 have been filling in my notebook at that time.

24 Q. What I am driving at is that you didn't know at the time

25 that you were filling in your notebook that this




1 incident with Mr McCrory was going to be a matter in

2 issue?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Now, just if I can ask you to be as clear as you can

5 with your memory now: you were driving the car?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember where Mr McCrory and Mr Burrows went?

8 A. The arresting officer would always have been in the

9 back. I can't remember, as I say in my statement,

10 whether Mr McCrory was behind me or behind the front

11 seat passenger or vice versa, but there would have been

12 myself driving, a police officer in the front, and then

13 the make-up of who was sitting where in the back, I

14 can't recall.

15 Q. But it would have been the arresting officer and

16 Mr McCrory?

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. I think you can probably recollect the allegations made

19 but I will just remind you of them, if I may.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr McCrory suggests -- and he is not precise as to who

22 was where and who said what -- that during the journey

23 back to the police station Mr Burrows, he thinks, said

24 words to the effect:

25 "Don't be asking for Rosemary."




1 Do you remember that being said at all?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And did anyone say words to the effect:

4 "Nelson won't help you this time"?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And just to be complete, do you remember there being any

7 request by Mr McCrory for a solicitor or indeed any

8 mention of Mrs Nelson's name in the car at all?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Because he would also suggest that when these words were

11 spoken, "Don't ask for Rosemary" or "Nelson won't help

12 you this time", someone replied from the front of the

13 car, which also includes yourself:

14 "Because she will be dead soon."

15 A. Nothing was said. I know the allegation from

16 Mr McCrory, but I never heard any of that.

17 Q. Just exploring it a little more, was it your experience

18 that there was ever any, if I can use this word, banter

19 that of type used between police officers and suspects?

20 A. Of that type?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Certainly not that time. Normal -- you got to know some

23 local suspects, petty criminals and things like that and

24 the banter was two-way, you know. They got to know who

25 you were and you also knew who they were. But anything




1 that overstepped the mark, no, comments like what we are

2 talking about now, nothing like that.

3 Q. Because on one view those are unpleasant remarks, but

4 what I just want to be clear with you is that it is not

5 the case that these things were in fact said, but not in

6 an unpleasant way, but were said in poor taste?

7 A. Could you repeat that again, please?

8 Q. These, on one view, are very unpleasant remarks?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But I just want to be clear with you: it is not the

11 case, is it, that these remarks were said, but in fact

12 in poor taste, by way of a joke, for example?

13 A. No, they just weren't said.

14 Q. They just weren't said at all?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that to have said these words in

17 the car would have been an easy thing for police

18 officers to do and a difficult thing for the suspect to

19 prove had happened in theory?

20 A. Yes, I would agree with you, yes.

21 Q. Now, you subsequently were interviewed in October 1998

22 about the allegations?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And we will come to some documents in a moment, but

25 I just want to ask you, if I may, after you had




1 completed what seems to, on any view, have been a very

2 minor piece of policing -- picking someone up and

3 bringing them to the police station -- were you made

4 aware or did you realise or think that something might

5 come of this?

6 A. No. The first I knew of it was whenever the complaint

7 was brought to my attention.

8 Q. And it would be right to say, I think, that it came as

9 a surprise to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that your first reaction was that they were a pack

12 of lies?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you, forgive me, offended or annoyed that these

15 things were being said?

16 A. Whenever I saw the full context of the allegation, I was

17 annoyed. But it waned a wee bit whenever I realised it

18 didn't happen. So there was nothing to be further

19 annoyed about.

20 Q. When was actually the first time that you became aware

21 that these things, these allegations, were being made

22 against you?

23 A. Whenever the 17/3 was issued with me.

24 Q. Yes. Well, if we could call up on to the screen,

25 please, RNI-216-190 (displayed), this is a document we




1 are all becoming very familiar with and I think in fact

2 is the 17/3. I don't think we need to highlight it, but

3 we can see that this is dated at the bottom

4 18th May 1998 and there is your signature there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in the middle of page, we can see:

7 "I, Shane McCrory ..."

8 I am not going to read it all out to you, but this

9 is the 17/3 that was served on you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can we turn the page to RNI-216-191, please (displayed).

12 We can see that you are given the opportunity to

13 comment, and you say:

14 "Nothing at this stage."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That is a slightly loaded expression. Why did you say

17 "at this stage"?

18 A. Because I always knew that that is only your

19 notification, that there is a complaint and you are

20 always aware that there is going to be somebody

21 interviewing you in furtherance of that complaint.

22 Q. And indeed we will come to that in a moment.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So the bad news is delivered to you in May. You are not

25 interviewed for a little while, but once, as it were,




1 you walk away with this document in your hand, are you

2 thinking to yourself, "I can remember precisely what

3 this is all about", or not?

4 A. At the start I couldn't remember. It was -- whenever

5 I found out the date -- I had to go and find out the

6 date that they were talking about in relation to the

7 complaint. Obviously my notebook didn't say anything.

8 I still couldn't remember anything about it.

9 Q. So what did you do to refresh your memory as to this

10 incident?

11 A. I asked -- because it was a particular day, I asked the

12 colleague that I was detailed with in relation to it,

13 and whenever he mentioned it was the arrest that we had

14 collected outside Wellworths, that is whenever

15 I remembered.

16 Q. Which colleague was that? Can you remember?

17 A. I can't remember. It was either P224 or else

18 Constable Meeke.

19 Q. Right. Do you recollect, whichever one of them it was,

20 his reaction to your enquiry?

21 A. I can't recollect his reaction.

22 Q. Do you recollect that he expressed to you a denial that

23 anything of that sort had happened?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You were able, were you, to then recollect in your own




1 mind what had gone on?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you weren't reliant on this other officer?

4 A. No, as soon as he mentioned that it was the collection

5 outside Wellworths, I could remember the circumstances

6 then.

7 Q. Was there a strong bond between you and fellow officers

8 policing Lurgan at this time?

9 A. I would say so, yes.

10 Q. Was that bond sufficiently strong that had something

11 like this happened, albeit it you not saying the words

12 suggested, but had something like this happened, you

13 would have been prepared not to make that known to the

14 investigating authorities?

15 A. No, in the circumstances what Mr McCrory alleges,

16 I personally am not in agreement with that type of

17 behaviour and I would have made it aware to my -- first

18 of all, to my sergeant.

19 Q. Thank you. I was going to ask you that. Had these

20 words -- and I know you say they aren't -- had these

21 words been uttered, what in fact would you have done?

22 A. Reported the full matter to my sergeant.

23 Q. What was your view of the Complaints and Discipline

24 Department of the Royal Ulster Constabulary at this

25 time?




1 A. I hadn't really got a particular view of the complaints

2 procedure.

3 Q. Did you think, again, they were just people doing their

4 job?

5 A. Oh, yes, yes.

6 Q. You did in fact go for a further interview or were seen

7 for a further interview. Can we call up on to the

8 screen RNI-216-069, please (displayed). We can see

9 here -- and again, I don't think we need to highlight

10 it -- your name and the various details.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you can see, if we turn over the page to RNI-216-070

13 (displayed), the text of the interview. Again, it is

14 quite clear so I don't think we need to necessarily

15 highlight it. Third line down.

16 "Answer: I was driver."

17 And you go on to say who you were accompanied by.

18 I'm not going to read it out, but you go on in the

19 interview to give an account of who was sat where and

20 what happened when you picked up the suspect; yes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And again, you denied in this interview that you had

23 either said or heard any of the remarks that were being

24 alleged against you and the other officers?

25 A. That's correct.




1 Q. At paragraph 12 of your witnesses statement at

2 RNI-843-013 (displayed) -- can we just highlight that.

3 It is the second line, that begins:

4 "I did not make any comments about Mrs Nelson. I

5 had a career to think about. I would not have done

6 anything that would have stepped over the mark and

7 endangered my career at all. I don't remember any

8 comments being made about Mrs Nelson by the other

9 officers in my presence. It would have been just as

10 detrimental to my career if I'd sat there and allowed

11 such comments to be made."

12 Just an interesting turn the phrase you use there,

13 that you had an career to think about. Obviously we

14 would all like to think that everybody is incredibly

15 careful and keen on their career, but it seems that you

16 are keen to emphasise that point. So could you just

17 tell us what you mean by that?

18 A. Well, the emphasis on the career aspect was because the

19 allegations were made within my job. If it had been --

20 my reaction to somebody making those comments would have

21 been exactly the same if it was outside of the police

22 environment. I'm not too sure what sort of procedure I

23 would have had to have followed in those circumstances,

24 if it would have been when I was off duty or had not

25 been a member the police. If those comments were made




1 in front of me, I don't know the procedure I would have

2 to have followed. But because it was in relation to the

3 police and those type of comments coming, within the

4 police environment, from either myself or other

5 officers, would not have been acceptable.

6 Q. Now, as regards what seems to be black and white or

7 right and wrong, the allegations, they are made and you

8 deny them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why is it that you think that Mr McCrory makes these

11 allegations?

12 A. I would have no idea. I can only assume -- and it is

13 maybe wrong for me to assume on Mr McCrory's behalf, but

14 there would have been lots of people would have made

15 complaints of all sorts of nature to this extent or to

16 minor extents in any type of arrest.

17 Q. Let us just look at that. Obviously, I understand that,

18 unless you are going to surprise me, you haven't spoken

19 to Mr McCrory --

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. -- as to why he is making these allegations. But what

22 type of suspect -- are we talking about normal criminal

23 suspects or terrorist suspects -- are you saying made

24 complaints?

25 A. Well, I wouldn't have any dealings with terrorist




1 suspects or, as we said earlier, you know, any serious

2 incidents would have been dealt with with CID, so we

3 wouldn't have had any dealing with them. It would have

4 been normal, if we want to catch the phrase, petty

5 criminals or motoring offences or thing like that there.

6 Q. You are saying, again going back to my expression, run

7 of the mill suspects --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- habitually made complaints. Is that what you are

10 saying?

11 A. No, there was a few, but it wouldn't have been -- I

12 would say that the complaints would have been lesser in

13 number than the amount of arrests through myself and

14 through other officers.

15 Q. And what do you say Mr McCrory had to gain from making

16 such allegations?

17 A. I have no idea.

18 Q. Because it is not the sort of situation where he -- and

19 I think he was picked up on a warrant?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It is not the sort of situation where he says too much

22 in interview, for example, and then tries to explain

23 that because of an inducement or pressure put on him by

24 the police, is it?

25 A. I wouldn't know what his reason behind it would have




1 been, like, although what I said before -- and that's

2 a general term, not just with Mr McCrory, it would have

3 been a general term with -- some complaints obviously

4 were well founded, you know, against particular officers

5 and all complaints have to be carried through. But in

6 relation to Mr McCrory, I don't know what the purpose

7 would have been in relation to --

8 Q. I appreciate you can't get inside his mind, but that is

9 what I am driving at with you. It seems on one view

10 that there wasn't very much to be gained by him by

11 making this allegation?

12 A. Well, that is what I don't know.

13 Q. No. I accept that it obviously didn't shine

14 particularly good light on you and the police service?

15 A. By --

16 Q. By saying that you'd said these things?

17 A. Yes. No, that's correct, yes.

18 Q. As far as the time period you were working at Lurgan is

19 concerned, did complaints against police officers by

20 suspects go up or down or stay the same, would you say?

21 A. I have no idea, no idea.

22 Q. Were you ever made aware of a complaint culture, if I

23 can use that expression, amongst terrorism suspects, as

24 opposed to run of the mill --

25 A. I'd no dealings with terrorist suspects, so I wouldn't




1 know.

2 Q. No, but you mixed with other police officers?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But there was no discussion that you were aware of about

5 that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Is that right?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. You have told us that you would have reported colleagues

10 if they had been involved in this sort of thing?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Had you ever in fact done that?

13 A. I had no call to.

14 Q. You hadn't?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No. Because, as I said earlier, these were words that

17 would have been easily spoken in that police car but

18 would have been very difficult for Mr McCrory to prove

19 had been said?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If we just put up on the screen, RNI-216-158, please

22 (displayed), we can see here a final page of the

23 disciplinary report involving your case, and just for

24 the sake of completeness, if we can highlight the last

25 line above "Recommendations of Investigating Officer"




1 (displayed), third line up:

2 "There is no evidence at this time to support the

3 allegations made by Shane McCrory."

4 Yes?

5 A. Yes, sorry.

6 Q. So as far as you were concerned, the matter came to

7 nothing?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And as far as Mr McCrory was concerned, did you ever

10 have any other dealings with him?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you briefed on local terrorist suspects in your

13 work?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was his name mentioned?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So as far as you were concerned, this was a man

18 collected quite normally for a petty matter?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Bench warrant, and was returned to the station and

21 nothing happened at all?

22 A. That's right, yes.

23 Q. Just finally, Mr Campbell, the question that is put to

24 all witnesses who come to give evidence to the

25 Inquiry -- I have asked you some questions; you've




1 answered them -- is: is there anything that you would

2 like to say to the Panel, the Inquiry, that you haven't

3 said or that you don't feel has been dealt with in your

4 statement or your evidence to us today?

5 A. I don't think so. I think everything has been covered

6 in the initial interview and the second interview

7 through Eversheds.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, I don't know if you or any of

9 your colleagues have any questions?

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Campbell, thank you very much for coming

11 here to give evidence to us. You are free to go now.

12 A. Thank you, sir. Thank you.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn now until quarter past 11.

14 (10.55 am)

15 (Short break)

16 (11.15 am)

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Myers, may we go through the checklist

18 with you before the witness comes in.

19 Is the public area screen fully in place, locked and

20 the key secured?

21 MR MYERS: Yes, sir.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the fire doors on either side of the door

23 closed?

24 MR MYERS: Yes, sir.

25 Q. Are the technical support screens in place and securely




1 fastened?

2 MR MYERS: Yes, sir.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Is anyone other than Inquiry personnel and

4 participants' legal representatives seated in the body

5 of this chamber?

6 MR MYERS: No, sir.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr [name redacted], can you confirm, please, that

8 the two witness cameras have been switched off and

9 shrouded?

10 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, they have.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: All the other cameras have been switched off?

12 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, they have.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Bring the witness in, please. The cameras on

14 the Panel, Inquiry personnel and Full Participants'

15 legal representatives may now be switched back on.

16 May the witness be sworn, please.

17 P128 (sworn)

18 Questions by MR SAVILL

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Please sit down. Yes, Mr Savill.

20 MR SAVILL: I am going to ask you some questions, if I may.

21 There is a screen in front of you. Some documents will

22 appear on that. Could I begin by asking that

23 RNI-840-080 is put up October that screen, please

24 (displayed). I don't think we need it highlighting, but

25 that is your front page of your witness statement?




1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. Could we now just pop up RNI-840-084, please

3 (displayed). Thank you. That is the last page with

4 your ciphered signature and a date at the bottom, which

5 I think is 25th April 2007. Do you see that?

6 A. That's correct, yes.

7 Q. I just wanted to confirm with you that that's your

8 statement to the Inquiry.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Events some ten years ago, 1997: Could you begin,

11 please, by telling us how long you had been a serving

12 officer in 1997?

13 A. At that stage it would have been approximately ten

14 years.

15 Q. You had started as a full-time reserve in 1987?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And at the relevant time that we are going to talk

18 about, I think you were a Detective Constable In the CID

19 at Lurgan?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Just help me, please, with your role in CID at the time.

22 Obviously it was criminal investigations but what sort

23 of work were you involved in investigating?

24 A. It varied. It varied from thefts to burglaries,

25 robberies, right up to serious crime which included




1 murder.

2 Q. What proportion of your work was terrorist related,

3 would you estimate?

4 A. If you take into account that at that stage you probably

5 would have had the ceasefires just taking place, so my

6 role at that stage would probably have been taken up

7 with more normal crime as the terrorist crime had sort

8 of lapsed slightly.

9 Q. Can you give us an impression, please, of the atmosphere

10 in which you had to work, bearing in mind paramilitary

11 and terrorist activity at this time? Can you describe

12 that for us?

13 A. Lurgan was a difficult area to work in. We had problems

14 from both sides of the community and both paramilitary

15 groups, so it was a difficult enough position to work

16 with on a daily basis.

17 Q. And presumably you had to take extra care working in

18 this environment, did you?

19 A. Yes, you would have, yes.

20 Q. Could we just highlight paragraph 2 of your statement.

21 I will just read this:

22 "I don't think the atmosphere or environment in

23 Lurgan at the time was any different to any other town

24 in Northern Ireland. As RUC officers we were faced with

25 difficult situations pretty much every day, and although




1 they weren't always terrorist situations, that

2 possibility was always in the back of your mind. It was

3 a very different atmosphere then to now."

4 A. That's correct, yes.

5 Q. Do you stand by that?

6 A. I do stand by that.

7 Q. Is there anything you would like to add to that?

8 A. No, there is nothing I would like to add.

9 Q. At this time, 1997, how experienced an officer would you

10 say you were in the interviewing process of suspects?

11 A. Well, I would have to say I was quite junior. I was

12 working in an office that had a lot of experience and I

13 was the junior officer in that office, so I was sort of

14 starting out on the career of CID and I wouldn't have

15 had a vast experience in relation to interviewing.

16 Q. When a suspect was taken to a holding centre, including

17 somewhere like Gough Barracks, you would go yourself

18 there, or be there already when they arrived?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. Is that right? And at this time, I think 1997, the

21 interviews were not tape recorded for audio purposes?

22 A. No, not in Gough Barracks, no.

23 Q. And there was, however, a video recording facility of

24 the interview?

25 A. I believe there would have been at the time, yes.




1 Q. But what you in fact did, I think I am right in saying,

2 is you took it in turns between the interviewing

3 officers to make a note or a summary of the interview

4 with the suspect?

5 A. That would normally be the case.

6 Q. Obviously, if you will forgive me for saying so, there

7 would be a lot of irrelevant things talked about in an

8 interview -- setting the scene, putting the suspect at

9 ease and so on and so forth -- before you got down to

10 the real brass tacks of the interview. So what approach

11 did you take to making a note of the interview? What

12 was actually included?

13 A. Well, at the start of the interview, you would have

14 included at the very top that the subject would have

15 been brought from the cell room to the interview room,

16 where he would have been introduced -- he or she would

17 have been introduced to the officers that were

18 conducting the interview.

19 Q. By name?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Then they would have been given a caution, and my

23 recollection would have been it would have been the

24 Article 3 caution, and it could have been Article 5 or

25 Article 6 cautions at the time depending on the




1 circumstances. And then you would have explained the

2 reason why the interview is being conducted and then it

3 would have flowed from there.

4 Q. And as regards the actual final result, the content of

5 the summary, would you only include in that longhand

6 matters of relevance?

7 A. You would normally have taken the interview verbatim.

8 There would have been question and answer. I think it

9 is alluded to maybe in this statement, and matters of

10 general discussion such as hobbies, general home life,

11 sporting interests, whatever. You would normally have

12 noted that as a general conversation took place and it

13 would have been in possibly one paragraph.

14 Q. Could we just call up RNI-840-081, please (displayed).

15 And could we highlight paragraph 5, just to try and help

16 you. This is obviously from your statement:

17 "It was certainly the case that there might be the

18 odd occasion when general chit chat was not noted. This

19 usually happened when there had been a series of

20 interviews and perhaps a suspect was brought back in for

21 another interview, and there would be a period of

22 settling down. Sometimes you would have a chat about

23 some irrelevant topic, for example, the suspect's

24 hobbies or interests, or whatever. Then you would

25 record ..."




1 Go over the page to RNI-840-082 (displayed):

2 "... in the note that you chatted about general

3 things."

4 So that is, I think, what you were referring to --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- as regards your comments.

7 If you were taking the note, am I right in saying

8 that that is really 90 per cent of what you had been

9 doing? You would actually be writing rather than asking

10 questions?

11 A. Yes, that was normally the case, that one person asked

12 the questions whilst another one wrote the answers down.

13 Q. So you are saying to us that it was the very best effort

14 of the scribe, if I can call him that, to make as full

15 a note as possible of what was being asked and answered?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. Who decided the strategy for particular interviews? How

18 was that done?

19 A. My recollection of it, you know, there was no

20 specific -- you mean amongst the officers that were

21 actually conducting the interview?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Really there wouldn't have been a strategy. Whoever

24 basically went with the custody sergeant to bring the

25 subject down from the cell to the interview room, they




1 would have probably have been the one who would have

2 been asking the questions to start with and the other

3 person would have been in the interview room with the

4 notes ready to conduct the interview.

5 Q. Yes. And as regards bringing everybody up to speed as

6 to what the person was suspected of and the details of

7 the crime that would assist any interviewing officer,

8 presumably there was a briefing from the senior officer?

9 A. That normally would have been the case. Obviously

10 whenever you were going to Gough, there would have been

11 senior officers there and it would -- they would have

12 chaired like a panel and they would have discussed the

13 reason for you being there, the number one, and the

14 background knowledge as to the reason why the people

15 would have been brought in that day.

16 Q. As you know, Mr Toman was brought in for

17 a terrorist-related offence; yes?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. You recollect that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you say that because of that there was any greater

22 pressure on you or your colleagues to secure a result,

23 bearing in mind that this had involved an attack on the

24 security services?

25 A. I personally didn't feel under any more pressure. It




1 was an interview situation. You had to deal with it in

2 a professional manner and conduct it in a professional

3 manner. So personally speaking, I wasn't under any more

4 pressure.

5 Q. As far as your colleagues were concerned, because there

6 were pairs of officers that did the interviews, was

7 anything said or any impression given to you that you

8 can recollect about this being an important case?

9 A. No, not that I can recollect.

10 Q. And I don't want to go to this, but does it sound about

11 right, if I remind you that from the records I have

12 looked at, that you were present for 12 of 20 interviews

13 between 11th and 14th February 1997?

14 A. In relation to this matter?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Well, if you are saying that, I have to take it that

17 that's right.

18 Q. I don't think it really matters, but does it sound about

19 right that you were present for quite a few of them?

20 A. You have to appreciate it is a very long time ago.

21 I guess I was there for a number of interviews. If you

22 are saying it was 12, I would have to say yes, that was

23 the number.

24 Q. The interview was concluded at each stage and the

25 suspect, I think, was allowed, in any interview, the




1 opportunity to read through the notes?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. We will come to Mr Toman in a moment, but generally

4 speaking was that something that was taken up by

5 suspects that you interviewed?

6 A. It just depended. It really, really did depend on the

7 situation. They were given the opportunity to read the

8 notes and verify that they were a true and accurate

9 account of the interview, and then also signed notes.

10 So it just depended on the individual that was being

11 interviewed.

12 Q. Was it your experience -- because obviously this was

13 done to provide a safeguard -- that people said, "Hang

14 on a moment, that is wrong" or "Actually you said this

15 to me and I want this putting in"?

16 A. You mean correcting the --

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. In my time -- and as I say, at that stage in 1997 it was

19 limited, the experience that I had, with the

20 interviewing technique, I had never come across that.

21 Q. No. And thereafter?

22 A. Again, I can't recollect but I don't think I ever came

23 across it.

24 Q. It is right, I think, to say that Mr Toman in fact

25 didn't take up the opportunity to sign the notes at all?




1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. And obviously how did you feel about that, when

3 a suspect was refusing, as it were, to audit your note

4 of the interview?

5 A. It was the subject's right, so if they exercised that --

6 I had no thoughts on it.

7 Q. But it did potentially, did it not, lay you open to

8 subsequent criticism?

9 A. Well, you asked the question, you know, "Do you want to

10 check the interview notes and do you want to sign them?"

11 If the subject declined, then you had your other officer

12 who was with you countersigning the notes.

13 Q. And you handed over the notes from one interview to the

14 next --

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. -- officers interviewing the suspect?

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. Again, I am not going to go into the detail or the

19 rights and wrongs of this, but very often suspects would

20 request to see their legal representative?

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 Q. But interviews would either carry on or commence

23 regardless?

24 A. Yes, my recollection is that would be the case unless

25 they were extreme circumstances.




1 Q. I am not suggesting that it was just done willy-nilly;

2 a process was gone through. But in any event the

3 suspect was interviewed despite the fact that he hadn't

4 actually seen his solicitor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. As regards solicitors or representatives attending to

7 see a client at their request, did you come into contact

8 a great deal with solicitors, either at police stations

9 or the holding centres?

10 A. Probably more so at Lurgan police station, where I would

11 have been involved in interviews in relation to, as

12 I said at the start of this, thefts and burglaries and

13 stuff that was dealt with under the PACE legislation.

14 So yes, you would have quite a dealing with the

15 different solicitors from the time.

16 Q. What about in relation to terrorist offences?

17 A. Again, as I said, I wasn't the most experienced in that

18 field at that stage, but yes, we came into contact with

19 solicitors in relation to the terrorist side as well.

20 Q. Would you say more contact in non-terrorist matters?

21 A. At that stage, for me personally, yes.

22 Q. How would you describe the level of contact, the

23 relationship, if you like, that developed between you

24 and solicitors that you saw?

25 A. I would have to categorise it as professional. Nothing




1 more, nothing less. It was professional.

2 Q. A word that has been used is that there was a certain

3 rapport?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Because you saw them regularly?

6 A. Some more than others. It was always kept very

7 professional.

8 Q. Were there any that irritated you?

9 A. Me personally? No.

10 Q. Not necessarily because of their personal habits, but

11 because of the way in which they went about representing

12 their clients?

13 A. The way I looked upon it, they had their job to do and I

14 had my job to do. They may have found me irritating, I

15 don't know. It was a job; I tried to do it as

16 professionally as I possibly could.

17 Q. What about, in this context, Mrs Nelson? How does she

18 fit into the solicitors that you saw, that you saw a lot

19 of, that you dealt with?

20 A. Exactly the same.

21 Q. And in 1997 what was your knowledge of the type of work

22 that she was doing?

23 A. Mrs Nelson represented clients from a criminal

24 background, right up to individuals who were brought in

25 under the terrorist legislation.




1 Q. So you knew that from your personal experience?

2 A. Absolutely, yes.

3 Q. Did you know of any high profile clients of hers?

4 A. Well, there would have been a number, I suppose, of

5 clients, yes, and I would have known them from the

6 Lurgan area.

7 Q. Mr Duffy being one?

8 A. He would have been one, yes.

9 Q. And at the time that you were interviewing

10 Mr Colm Toman, which was February 1997, you were aware,

11 were you not, that Mr Duffy had been acquitted of the

12 Lyness murder in November 1996?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did you know that Mrs Nelson had been representing him

15 in relation to that?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And had you formed any opinion of her as a result of the

18 clients that she was representing?

19 A. Absolutely none.

20 Q. Just again, if I can -- I hope to be fair to you -- let

21 us highlight page RNI-840-083 (displayed), paragraph 11.

22 If we look three lines up:

23 "I knew Rosemary Nelson. I had very few dealings

24 with her, but in those that I did, she was very

25 professional in her job, as was I. She had her job to




1 do and I had mine."

2 So at this stage it was, in your view, a perfectly

3 normal view and relationship that you had with

4 Mrs Nelson?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. Presumably you socialised, either in the canteen at

7 work, for example, or after work, with fellow officers?

8 A. Not on a regular basis, I would have to say.

9 Q. But you mixed with them?

10 A. Absolutely, yes.

11 Q. And during those occasions, presumably you talked shop

12 with one another?

13 A. When we were socialising?

14 Q. Or having a cup of tea in the canteen?

15 A. In the canteen you may have chatted about general

16 matters, yes, but as a general rule of thumb, I didn't

17 then and I don't now talk about work whenever I am

18 socialising.

19 Q. I appreciate that that may carry with it certain risks,

20 but in any event what I want to ask you is: was it not

21 the case that you and your fellow officers discussed

22 cases, casework that you had either been involved in,

23 cases that you had heard about?

24 A. You would have had general discussions about various

25 types of work, but going into particular cases in depth,




1 in my time, I certainly wasn't involved in chat in the

2 canteen generally in relation to that.

3 Q. Did you ever discuss Mrs Nelson with other officers?

4 A. No, absolutely not.

5 Q. Did you ever hear any other officers, either in

6 a pleasant or an unpleasant way, discussing Mrs Nelson

7 and her work as a solicitor in and around Lurgan?

8 A. Not to me.

9 Q. No one ever expressed their frustration or resentment at

10 the type of clients she was representing and the results

11 she was obtaining?

12 A. Absolutely not.

13 Q. Had you heard that sort of chat, what would you have

14 done or said in relation to it?

15 A. Firstly, I think, as I have said in my initial

16 statement, it would be unprofessional and if I had have

17 come across that type of conversation, I would have

18 taken the steps then obviously to record it. I was

19 a detective constable at the time, so I would have taken

20 the steps to report it to my line manager, who would be

21 a detective sergeant and it would have been up to the

22 detective sergeant to progress it.

23 Q. I just want to explore that a little bit, if I may. I

24 don't want to be rude but you were presumably the new

25 boy?




1 A. Correct.

2 Q. The lowest of the low, if you like?

3 A. I wouldn't say that.

4 Q. In the team, that is, relatively speaking?

5 A. Junior.

6 Q. The junior.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Would that not have made it far more difficult for you

9 to have taken it upon yourself to report a fellow

10 officer?

11 A. No, because at the end of the day I was a police

12 officer.

13 Q. You wouldn't have felt under any pressure to abide by an

14 unwritten code, perhaps?

15 A. Me personally, no.

16 Q. Thank you. As regards those higher up than you -- I am

17 not going to say the highest of the high because I have

18 already made a mistake in that regard -- but the higher

19 ranking officers, the managers, if you like, not

20 necessarily at Lurgan, did you ever receive any kind of

21 impression, either implicitly or explicitly, from them

22 that defence solicitors were something of a nuisance or,

23 indeed, Mrs Nelson was?

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 Q. But there were other solicitors, were there not,




1 representing paramilitary organisations, if you like, or

2 individuals associated with them in Lurgan at the time,

3 were there not?

4 A. Yes, there would have been and from outside Lurgan, I

5 suppose, too, yes.

6 Q. Were you aware that Mrs Nelson was not only representing

7 Colm Toman but also his brother at the time?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. Because I think I am right in saying that they were both

10 brought in on suspicion of the same criminal offence --

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. Mr Toman -- Colm Toman, that is -- has made some

13 allegations relating to subsequent detention

14 in July 1997. If I can just cover this very quickly.

15 You presumably would deny any kind of threats or

16 abuse either to him or Mrs Nelson at that time as well

17 as what we are about to talk about?

18 A. Absolutely.

19 Q. Could I ask to be called up RNI-208-180 (displayed). We

20 can see here what I am afraid is probably a familiar

21 form to you, 17/3. It is the complaint form. Can you

22 see that?

23 A. Yes, that's correct, I see that.

24 Q. Again, I'm not going to read through all of it, but

25 there are paragraphs of text which include the




1 allegations and the behaviour that Mr Toman talks about

2 during his period in the police station?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Could we turn over, please. Unfortunately, I think this

5 is our pagination system that has gone wrong. This is

6 in fact the last page, but if we go over again to

7 RNI-208-182 (displayed), we can see the rest of the text

8 and these are the allegations that are made against you.

9 Do you actually, sitting there now, remember

10 interviewing this individual?

11 A. I remember the interviews taking place but this

12 particular one, I can't say that I specifically can

13 remember that one.

14 Q. If we look at paragraph 7, we can see that -- if we just

15 highlight that -- this individual says:

16 "At the first interview I was asked who my solicitor

17 was. I said Rosemary Nelson. They asked, 'Is Rosemary

18 Nelson really a Provo?' I laughed and said, 'Aye, she

19 looks like one, doesn't she'."

20 Yes?

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 Q. And obviously the reason that you were focused upon by

23 the Complaints and Discipline Department is because you

24 had been part of the first interview?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.




1 Q. I will come to this in due course, but Mr Toman has told

2 us that the abuse, if you like, or the remarks were made

3 latterly in the interviewing process but he is not

4 specific about who said it. But we will come to that in

5 a moment.

6 Could we turn over the page, please, to RNI-208-183

7 (displayed). Can we just look at the last paragraph

8 there:

9 "I saw Rosemary twice a day. They said she was

10 a friend of the Provos and of Colin Duffy's. They said,

11 'She's not that good. She won't get you off'."

12 Yes?

13 A. Yes, I see that, yes.

14 Q. Were you present throughout the first interview, as best

15 you can recollect?

16 A. To the best of my recollection, yes, I would have been

17 present --

18 Q. As regards the other interviews that you were present

19 in --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- do you recollect any of these comments being made

22 either by yourself or by anybody else?

23 A. Absolutely not.

24 Q. I am sorry?

25 A. Absolutely not.




1 Q. And again, I will just ask you: if something like this

2 had been said in the course of an interview, what action

3 would you have taken?

4 A. The same action as I said earlier: I would have taken

5 that to my line manager. As I said, in my time I have

6 never heard anything like that ever spoken about.

7 Q. You have been shown these documents, I know, from

8 Mr Toman. But just so we are clear, he has gone on to

9 suggest in his evidence to the Inquiry that there were

10 other things said. Do you follow that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So it is above and beyond that which I have just shown

13 you.

14 Now, he says, as I say, that this took place on the

15 second or the third day, and I will just tell you, I am

16 afraid, what these are: that Rosemary Nelson had been

17 part of an active service unit and the fire bomb had

18 exploded causing scarring on her face; Rosemary Nelson

19 had been beaten with an ugly stick; she was

20 Colin Duffy's right-hand woman and that "you", the

21 police, would have her sorted out. "There would be no

22 fucking Rosemary Nelson Provo solicitor running about."

23 She wouldn't be helping "him", Mr Toman, out this time

24 and that "you", the police, would take her out.

25 A. I have no recollection of that ever being said. And as




1 I said, if it had have been, I would have taken steps to

2 make sure it was addressed and reported.

3 Q. You were aware of her facial scarring, I presume?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That was never discussed amongst you or other officers?

6 A. Not in my time, never.

7 Q. And you have already told us that you were aware of her

8 professional relationship with Mr Duffy?

9 A. Correct, yes.

10 Q. Mr Toman has also suggested that one interview at which

11 abuse took place took place very late at night at about

12 1 o'clock in the morning. Was it your practice as

13 police, not you individually, to interview people at

14 1 o'clock in the morning?

15 A. Absolutely not.

16 Q. Were any rules about that?

17 A. Going back to the legislation at that time, I can't

18 recollect whether legislation allowed you to interview

19 into the early hours of the morning. I do believe that

20 the subject would have had to have had a certain amount

21 of rest. So where the interview comes at 1 o'clock, I

22 don't know -- certainly not in my time did I ever hear

23 of anyone being interviewed into the early hours of the

24 morning.

25 Q. If I can assist you, there is no record in the custody




1 record of an interview taking place at 1 o'clock in the

2 morning, and when he was asked about it -- and that was

3 put to him -- Mr Toman was of the view that there was no

4 mistake: It wasn't, for example, at ten to 11, for

5 example, at night, but was very firm that it had taken

6 place at 1 o'clock in the morning.

7 So as far as you were concerned, that just didn't

8 happen?

9 A. It just doesn't happen.

10 Q. Because he goes on to allege that in that late or, I

11 should say, early morning interview, it was said:

12 "We will fucking finish her off. There will be no

13 more Rosie the Provo. We will fucking kill her, a Provo

14 like the rest of you."

15 A. Absolutely not.

16 Q. Do you remember Mr Colm Toman ever trying to rise from

17 his seat and remonstrate with you when you were

18 interviewing him?

19 A. Absolutely not.

20 Q. Do you remember anyone saying to him:

21 "We will put you down and we will put

22 Rosemary Nelson down. None of yous will be running

23 about"?

24 A. No, not at all.

25 Q. Mr Toman also told us about some physical abuse levelled




1 at him by police officers while he was in custody. Yes?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I asked him about that, because it wasn't mentioned

4 in the context of his initial complaint. I'm not going

5 to go into the detail of it, but as far as you are

6 concerned, were you involved in any physical violence of

7 any kind towards Mr Toman whilst he was in custody?

8 A. None whatever.

9 Q. Were you aware of whether any other officers were?

10 A. Not at all.

11 Q. Putting a chair leg on his foot, for example?

12 A. Not at all.

13 Q. Clipping him round the back of the head?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Trying to throw him down some stairs?

16 A. You have to be appreciative that there were cameras that

17 were watching, so that would never have taken place and

18 the allegation is totally false.

19 Q. Were you ever aware that these cameras were switched

20 off?

21 A. Personally speaking, no.

22 Q. Did they have lights on them that showed that they were

23 recording or not, red lights, do you remember?

24 A. I can't recollect.

25 Q. As far as you are concerned -- I understand your




1 answer -- none of this happened?

2 A. Absolutely not.

3 Q. Were you, at the time Mr Toman was in custody or up

4 until he was released, made aware that there was, as it

5 were, a problem, that there was likely to be a complaint

6 made?

7 A. Whenever he was in custody?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Not that I can recollect.

10 Q. And when did you in fact first hear that the complaint

11 was going to be made?

12 A. I can't give you a specific date. It obviously would

13 have been post the interviews but I can't recollect the

14 exact date or times.

15 Q. An slightly difficult and I hope not embarrassing

16 question: could you describe for us, please, your

17 physical appearance at the time of these interviews?

18 A. Probably a bit younger looking than I am now and just

19 the same sort of build, and whatever else.

20 Q. You are sitting down, so let me try and help you. How

21 tall are you?

22 A. I would be around six foot.

23 Q. And presumably about that height then?

24 A. Correct, yes.

25 Q. What age would have been in 1997?




1 A. 31.

2 Q. And without giving me any names, can I just put some

3 descriptions to you of officers and just see whether

4 that jogs your memory as to those who have been involved

5 with Mr Toman: Black hair, skinny, 30s, clean shaven,

6 five foot seven?

7 A. Thinking back, it could have referred to a number of

8 people.

9 Q. Grey hair, grey beard, late 40s, five eight/five nine,

10 heavy build?

11 A. Again, it could have referred to a number of people.

12 Q. But a number of people who were involved in interviewing

13 Mr Toman is what I am driving at?

14 A. I am trying to think back on the people who were

15 involved in interviews at that stage. Certainly the

16 description, yes, that description would match people,

17 yes.

18 Q. You should have the cipher list there in front of you.

19 Just excuse me. (Pause)

20 But as far as you are concerned, these descriptions

21 could have covered those present?

22 A. As I said before, I can't recollect the exact

23 personalities that were in the interview team, but the

24 descriptions that you have given me could match people

25 at that time.




1 Q. It perhaps doesn't matter because, as I said, Mr Toman

2 wasn't able to say it was this particular person at this

3 particular time, and in any event you deny that any

4 threats or abuse were levelled at Mrs Nelson?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. Time moves on and you were served with the form that we

7 have already just had a very brief look at. Could we

8 just call that up; RNI-208-180, please (displayed). We

9 can see that you were served with that on

10 3rd November 1997; is that right?

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. And I am sorry because, as I say, the pagination is

13 slightly out. If we go on to RNI-208-181 (displayed),

14 we can see that you say:

15 "This allegation is totally unfounded."

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. If we go to RNI-208-184 (displayed), this is

18 a statement, again ciphered, but we can see that you

19 have been served with the form, you have read the

20 details, you understand all the matters, you don't

21 require time to think the matter over and you:

22 "... agree to my previously made statements

23 regarding this matter to be tendered for use in any

24 disciplinary inquiry"?

25 A. That's correct, yes.




1 Q. At this time, when you were being asked to comment --

2 I mean, this is 20th March -- how clear was your

3 recollection then of what had gone on? Did you say,

4 "Oh, yes, I can remember this very well" to yourself?

5 A. I would have presumed at the time just soon after the

6 interviews I would have had a reasonably good

7 recollection of what went on.

8 Q. And if we could put up on to the screen now, please,

9 RNI-203-189 (displayed), again, I just leave you for

10 a moment to familiarise yourself with it. (Pause)

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes, I do, yes.

13 Q. This was an interview conducted with yourself. Could we

14 just turn over the page to RNI-203-190 (displayed). I

15 am afraid we have got some rather difficult handwriting,

16 but could I ask this document to be put on the left of

17 the screen and on the right-hand side could we call up

18 RNI-206-103 (displayed).

19 What I am doing here, if I can just explain to you,

20 is putting up a typed version of the handwriting, and

21 the statement on the right is by the Complaints and

22 Discipline Department officer. And if we go to the very

23 bottom of the page on the right -- can we just highlight

24 that last part. I'll just read it to you:

25 "You have seen the allegations made by the witness




1 on behalf of Rosemary Nelson, the solicitor acting at

2 the time for him. How do you respond?

3 "Answer: My response is that the interview records

4 are a true account of what happened on those dates."

5 Could we go to RNI-206-104, please (displayed):

6 "Specifically, Mr Toman has made allegations about

7 the first interview and comments made about his

8 solicitor, Rosemary Nelson, in the first interview. You

9 were involved in the first interview with Detective

10 Constable [blank]. Did either of you ask, 'Is

11 Rosemary Nelson really a Provo?'

12 "Answer: No.

13 "Question: What do you think of such a question if

14 asked by detectives about a defence solicitor?

15 "Answer: She was never brought up in

16 a conversation, so I couldn't comment.

17 "Question: Was her name mentioned in this type of

18 way in any conversation with the prisoner?

19 "Answer: Absolutely not.

20 "Question: Anything else you would wish to say?

21 "Answer: No."

22 Just to be fair to you again, that is just showing

23 your denial and explanation of the allegations when you

24 were spoken to by the Complaints and Discipline

25 Department.




1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. You were subsequently interviewed again about the same

3 allegations by Mr Mulvihill?

4 A. That's correct, I was, yes.

5 Q. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Could we call up on to the screen, please, now,

8 RNI-225-144 (displayed). We can see a tape recorded

9 interview with you at six minutes past two on

10 10th November 1998. Do you remember this interview?

11 A. I do, yes.

12 Q. And in that interview -- again, I'm not going to go

13 through it all with you -- you give your explanation and

14 your denials?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. Yes?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. If we could go to RNI-225-152 (displayed), and if we

19 could highlight the bottom of the page. It is put:

20 "In one of the interviews he describes [Mr Toman]

21 two detectives. He said one was fattish with grey hair

22 and grey beard. The other was tall, a bit of a beard

23 and had black hair. Do those descriptions match any RUC

24 officers that you know that may have interviewed

25 Mr Toman?"




1 Just so we are clear, Mr Toman has now said that the

2 other who was tall didn't have a beard. And you reply:

3 "No, none that I know.

4 "Question: I'll just go back: fattish with grey

5 hair and a grey beard. The other was tall with a bit of

6 a beard and black hair.

7 "Answer: Not that I know."

8 So closer to the time, when you recollected the

9 interviews, you were asked about that and you said, no,

10 that didn't, if I can use this expression, ring any

11 bells with you; yes?

12 A. Yes, that's correct, yes.

13 Q. Obviously you will appreciate that on the one hand I'm

14 putting to you allegations that things were said by the

15 you or other officers?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Things were said, things were done, particularly

18 concerning Mrs Nelson; abuse and threats, indeed, to her

19 personal safety?

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. And you, as of course you are entitled to do, sit there

22 and say, "This is nonsense"?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. "Nothing of the sort happened." But what I would like

25 to explore with you now is why it is that you would




1 say -- and you will understand, I hope, why I'm asking

2 you this -- why it is that Mr Toman would allege that

3 these things in fact happened if they didn't?

4 A. My answer to that would be I believe it was a propaganda

5 machine to discredit the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

6 Q. Just to help you, if we could call up RNI-840-084

7 (displayed), it is your statement. In paragraph 14, you

8 say:

9 "The allegation made by Mr Toman is entirely false.

10 I didn't make these statements or hear anyone else make

11 them. I joined the RUC to be professional and I never

12 did, never have and never will make comments like that."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. That's correct. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Could we go now back to the Mulvihill interview at

16 RNI-225-154 (displayed). Could we just, I think, the

17 top half of the page, highlight that. I think, no doubt

18 in a more articulate way, it is put to you than I am

19 today, "Why would they be making these allegations?"

20 And you say:

21 "I categorically state that the incident did not

22 occur. What can I believe or what I do believe is that

23 this is an orchestrated attempt, you know, a public

24 movement to discredit the RUC. The interviews that took

25 place are comprehensive and professional guide as to the




1 exact state of the interviews that in fact did happen

2 and that anything suggested in the complaints is totally

3 untrue and totally unfounded."

4 So you give a similar answer in that indeed that you

5 have just given to me?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. I want to explore that with you. When you say it was an

8 orchestrated attempt, by whom?

9 A. I would have to say that there would have been

10 a campaign from both sides of the community to discredit

11 the RUC.

12 Q. Both sides of the sectarian divide? Both elements of

13 paramilitaries?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And as far as you are concerned, would you say that it

16 was -- I'm not going to say an everyday occurrence, but

17 how regular was it?

18 A. It just depended on the situation that you were involved

19 in. It is just hard to quantify it, but certainly there

20 would have been situations where there was a movement to

21 discredit the police from whatever side.

22 Q. Was it, if you like, an equal effort on both sides?

23 A. I can't really state, but it was coming from both sides.

24 I couldn't say that it was on a level par, but certainly

25 there would have been incidents where both sides were




1 trying to discredit the police and the difficult job

2 that they carried out in that era.

3 Q. Are you saying that those connected with paramilitary

4 organisations were essentially, I suppose, conspiring

5 with one another that if they were arrested for whatever

6 reason, then one objective would be to make unfounded

7 allegations?

8 A. You certainly would have to assume that from this.

9 Q. I am asking you if you have any knowledge about it?

10 A. Me personally?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No.

13 Q. No. Was it discussed amongst police officers at the

14 station that this was what was going on?

15 A. No, not in my time.

16 Q. But you say, do you, that it was a well-known tactic, or

17 not?

18 A. Yes, it would have been a tactic, but if you are saying

19 that in the specifics, would we have discussed the

20 specifics, say, in relation to this case?

21 Q. No, I am sorry, my fault. I don't mean this case. Did

22 you hear conversation along the lines of, "You will

23 never believe it, there is another complaint ..."?

24 A. No, not really, not in my time. It was part and parcel

25 of your job. If you got a complaint, it would have to




1 be dealt with.

2 Q. And I think you would say that if you were getting

3 a complaint you were doing your job?

4 A. I was doing my job to the best of my ability, yes.

5 Q. What role, if any, are you saying that defence

6 solicitors may have played in this tactic?

7 A. None that I am aware of.

8 Q. So their activities in coming to represent their client,

9 advising them and so on and so forth, you would say was

10 carried out entirely professionally?

11 A. Absolutely.

12 Q. Did you feel that any defence solicitors were being used

13 unwittingly by members of the paramilitary organisations

14 to further this tactic of discrediting the RUC?

15 A. Not that I knew of.

16 Q. You have said to us that this was a tactic to discredit

17 the RUC, because it couldn't be seen, could it, to be

18 anything that would actually have helped the suspect in

19 relation to the offence with which he was charged,

20 Mr Toman?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Or he was being questioned about. Are you saying that

23 it was to tie up RUC resources and to discredit

24 generally, as much as possible, officers involved?

25 A. It was just a tactic that was used, and whatever the




1 outcome of that was, I am sure it varied in different

2 aspects.

3 Q. Yes. Just excuse me for a moment. (Pause)

4 Could I just go back a stage. I just have

5 a question that I should perhaps have asked you. In

6 1997, to be clear, interviews were monitored rather than

7 recorded?

8 A. Yes, monitored from a video screen, yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 The final thing that I just want to put to you is

11 this -- this is something that is said to all witnesses.

12 I have asked you a number of questions and you have

13 helpfully answered them, but is there anything that has

14 not been, to your satisfaction, explored in either your

15 statement to the Inquiry or the evidence that you have

16 given today that you would like to tell us about at this

17 stage?

18 A. No, none. Everything is covered in my statement.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

21 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN

22 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: As an interviewing officer of terrorist

23 suspects, you were obviously charged with great

24 responsibility?

25 A. That's correct, yes.




1 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Had you ever, at the time we are

2 looking at here, attended any courses which gave you

3 instructions or advice on how to interview terrorist

4 suspects?

5 A. My first course in the CID would have been an CID

6 foundation course, which was a two-week course. It sort

7 of gave you the basics in relation to the work that you

8 were going to undertake.

9 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Sure, but no courses dealing with this

10 level of severity of offence?

11 A. There was an interviewing course. However, I can't

12 recollect whether that was pre this or post this. It

13 was in relation to just interviewing a witness.


15 A. Taking a witness statement. Then I would have to add

16 there would be a course then that you would have went

17 on, which was a seven-week course, which was

18 a foundation course for detectives.

19 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: There was, I believe, a tendency for

20 terrorist suspects not to answer questions?

21 A. That is absolutely correct, yes.

22 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Were there any techniques that you or

23 your colleagues employed to deal with suspects that

24 wouldn't answer questions?

25 A. What you would have done at the time if you had asked




1 a question and there would have been no reply, you would

2 have went on to the next question and no reply, and then

3 just continued on.

4 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Should we read anything into the fact

5 that police officers interviewing terrorist suspects

6 didn't introduce themselves by name at the commencement

7 of the interview? Is that an issue around security?

8 A. Again, it would have depended in different areas and

9 what the circumstances would have been.

10 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Would you, for example, have introduced

11 yourself by name at the commencement of an interview?

12 A. Yes.

13 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Just dealing with your explanation

14 concerning the orchestrated campaign to discredit the

15 RUC. Of all the subjects, of all the issues that

16 terrorist suspects could have picked on to discredit

17 police officers, could you help us to understand why

18 they would have selected an issue concerning defence

19 solicitors?

20 A. Again, I can't answer that. It is just a very difficult

21 one to answer. You know, it wasn't only in relation to

22 this case; this would have been other cases as well

23 where they would have tried to discredit the good work

24 that we were doing. It is just a very difficult

25 question to answer.




1 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: And you have already said that you

2 didn't believe that defence solicitors were involved in

3 this campaign?

4 A. Absolutely not.

5 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Then just to add to the question I have

6 just asked you concerning why pick on this subject, why

7 pick on, do you think, such a distasteful issue of

8 facial disfiguration of a solicitor if that individual

9 was not involved in this campaign?

10 A. Again, I can't answer that.

11 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Okay. Thank you very much.

12 A. Thank you.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for coming to give

14 evidence before us.

15 MR SAVILL: Excuse me, sir, could I just interrupt? I do

16 apologise. Could I interrupt?


18 Further questions by MR SAVILL

19 MR SAVILL: I have a document here which I had thought this

20 witness had when I asked him about the descriptions of

21 the officers. I don't think it goes particularly to any

22 issue, but I think in fairness to him I should just like

23 to hand it to him so that he can see the identities

24 which are ciphered of the officers who conducted the

25 interviews. And then I will put to him the descriptions




1 again.

2 I am sorry, I did, when I originally asked the

3 question, as you probably saw, think that he had this in

4 front of him. (Handed)

5 A. Thank you. (Pause)


7 Q. I am sorry it is handwritten, but that obviously,

8 I hope, refreshes your memory.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I will just read those descriptions to you again:

11 "Black-haired, skinny, 30s, clean shaven, five

12 seven. Grey hair, grey beard, late 40s, five eight or

13 five nine, heavy build."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To the best of your recollection, do those descriptions

16 match the identities of any of those on the list?

17 A. Yes, they could, yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us the ciphered number, please?

19 A. In relation to which description?

20 Q. "Black hair, skinny, 30s, clean shaven, five seven".

21 A. Obviously 128, 137, 267. Sorry, I said 137. But there

22 is obviously another one but they are not on this list.

23 Q. That was involved in the interviews?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I am afraid that I don't know the answer to that




1 question. I don't want you obviously to say the name.

2 A. I'll not say the name, but I can obviously --

3 Q. Let me just deal with the second description and perhaps

4 we can come back to that:

5 "Grey hair, grey beard, late 40s, five eight, five

6 nine, heavy build."

7 A. I am just looking at that: 225.

8 Q. You are not saying it is precisely, but --

9 A. With the description you have given me, I'm trying to

10 recollect at that stage ...

11 Q. I appreciate that. Two final descriptions:

12 "Scottish accent, bald, 30 to 40 years old."

13 A. Sorry, could you repeat that?

14 Q. "Scottish accent, bald, 30 to 40 years old."

15 A. Not on this list.

16 MR SAVILL: I think what I would like to do, sir, is just

17 explore with the witness the issue of the officer that

18 he says was at the interview but is not on that list,

19 but obviously I would ask you to rise so that that can

20 be done.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Is there any reason why this officer

22 shouldn't write on a piece of paper the name of the

23 person and hand it to us, and then we can destroy it?

24 MR SAVILL: I don't see why not. Perhaps before that is

25 done, can I just tell the officer what has happened.




1 The interview records, custody record is being

2 checked as to which officers were present in the

3 interviews with Colm Toman, and those names starred on

4 that list are the officers involved. But you are saying

5 there was another officer involved in interviewing

6 Colm Toman, are you, just to be absolutely certain?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR SAVILL: In that case, I think perhaps, sir, with

9 gratitude, your suggestion is a good one.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you like to write the name down on

11 a piece of paper. Can a piece of paper be handed to the

12 witness and then the piece of paper will be handed to

13 us. (Handed)

14 We were aware of that -- I was aware of it.

15 MR SAVILL: Yes, we were aware of that, thank you. Can

16 I just finally, I hope, clarify it. I asked you about

17 a Scottish accent. Is that the same --

18 A. No.

19 Q. There is another person?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was there someone with a Scottish accent involved in

22 interviewing Mr Colm Toman?

23 A. What date? On this particular occasion or a later date?

24 Q. No, the incident we are talking about, which was

25 11th February to 14th in 1997.




1 A. Again, I can't recollect the individuals, but you are

2 asking me about one individual and, yes, I know who that

3 may be.

4 Q. I think we have now established all the officers. You

5 have had the descriptions put to you and you have said

6 who you think that they may or may not match. Thank

7 you.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr [name redacted], before the witness leaves,

9 would you, please, confirm that all the cameras have been

10 switched off?

11 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, they have.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Please escort the witness out.

13 We shall rise now, until 1 o'clock on Monday.

14 (12.15 pm)

15 (The Inquiry adjourned until 1.00 pm on Monday,

16 23rd June 2008)












1 I N D E X

MR ALLISTER CAMPBELL (sworn) ..................... 1
Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 1
P128 (sworn) ..................................... 31
Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 31
Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN .............. 66
Further questions by MR SAVILL ............... 69