Transcript of the Hearing 5 December 2013

 

           1                                      Thursday, 5 December 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (10.34 am)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Are we ready for the jury?

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  We are.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  We'll ask the jury to

           8       come in, cameras off, please.

           9                  (In the presence of the jury)

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          11       jury.

          12           Cameras may now come on.

          13           Yes, Mr Underwood?

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  I'll recall V59, please.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  V59 then, please.

          16                          V59 (re-sworn)

          17                   (The witness was anonymised)

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Would you have

          19       a seat, please.

          20   A.  Thank you.

          21                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sergeant, I'm very sorry to have called you

          23       back, it's something that I missed while you were giving

          24       your evidence in October, a possible disparity between

          25       what you said then and what we can see on the video.


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           1       I think you know that and you have had a chance to

           2       comment on it, I know, and the purpose of you coming

           3       back is for you to give evidence about that; do you

           4       understand?

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  Can I just start by showing you the transcript of what

           7       you said on 8 October.  It's at page 145 of the

           8       transcript for that day and picking it up at line 13,

           9       I asked a question:

          10           "Question: So getting back to your concern that

          11       there's a firearm there somewhere and it hasn't been

          12       found, what did you do?

          13           "Answer: I turned to R31, who at this stage wasn't

          14       undertaking any first aid or any other tasks and I asked

          15       him to look for the firearm.

          16           "Question: What happened after that in relation to

          17       that firearm?

          18           "Answer: After a few minutes he informed me that he

          19       had found a gun on the other side of the railings on the

          20       grass area.

          21           "Question: What did you do, if anything?

          22           "Answer: At this stage, I -- we had further

          23       resources coming to assist us anyway.  I think, as

          24       an ARV arrived, I asked them to go and preserve the

          25       scene where that gun had been found."


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           1           That was your evidence, wasn't it?

           2   A.  Yes, it was.

           3   Q.  I do not think we looked at it but you covered the same

           4       area in your witness statement of 7 August.  Perhaps we

           5       could look at that, it's CS100.  It's about a third of

           6       the way down the page.  On the right-hand side "I was

           7       conscious" -- just see it at the top of the page there?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  "I was conscious that there was no weapon obviously

          10       apparent and therefore I asked R31 to look for a firearm

          11       within a few moments he informed me that he had found

          12       one on the other side of the wall from where the stop

          13       took place.  I was conscious of the need to get further

          14       resources to our position, I was aware Q63 had already

          15       made this request via the radio system, however I then

          16       telephoned W55 the on-call SFO Inspector and requested

          17       his attendance along with further armed response

          18       vehicles to our position to assist in securing the scene

          19       and firearm.  With this complete I made my way back to

          20       where first aid was taking place.  V53, V48, R68 were

          21       carrying out chest compressions and undertaking first

          22       aid.  Q63 was videoing the scene and the first aid.

          23       I directed W56 to take still photographs at the scene.

          24       I then liaised with local police officers on scene and

          25       the local duty officer.  Upon arrival of the ARVs,


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           1       I directed one of them to secure the firearm."

           2           That was your statement, wasn't it?

           3   A.  Yes, it was.

           4   Q.  I think you know that the three ARV officers, who are

           5       PCs Fowler, Gibson and Christiansen, gave evidence to

           6       the same effect, that when they turned up you directed

           7       them to look for the gun on the grass?

           8   A.  I directed them to initially -- on their evidence, I am

           9       not sure exactly what their evidence was?

          10   Q.  It's what their evidence was, were you not aware of

          11       that?

          12   A.  I'm aware they said in their November statement that

          13       I directed them to secure a firearm -- I don't know

          14       whether it was look for a firearm or secure a firearm.

          15   Q.  When we looked at the video then and we see you meeting

          16       the ARV officers when they turn up --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  -- this is what I want to put to you is the difficulty:

          19       at that stage, R31 and Z51 had not actually found the

          20       firearm?

          21   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          22   Q.  Would you like to comment on that?

          23   A.  Yes.  I think it's just a slight confusion, firstly in

          24       what I've written and also in terms of my evidence on

          25       the 8 October.  I think further in my evidence on


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           1       8 October I spoke about how I directed them to Jarrow

           2       Road because I was concerned about people coming out of

           3       the estate on Jarrow Road.  They drove round into Jarrow

           4       Road and then by the time they got round there, parked

           5       their vehicle up and got out, they have then come across

           6       to where R31 had found the firearm.

           7           There was a later briefing that I gave them in order

           8       to secure the firearm.  In terms of the evidence I wrote

           9       in my statement, it was sort of a lot of things happened

          10       all at once after the incident and I basically just

          11       listed them and I may have got the chronology slightly

          12       wrong in terms of exactly when I told them what -- but

          13       there were at least two briefings with the ARV officers,

          14       one being to secure Jarrow Road and one being to secure

          15       the firearm.

          16   Q.  So I'm clear then, you didn't brief them as soon as they

          17       arrived to go and secure a firearm which had, to your

          18       knowledge then, been found on the grass?

          19   A.  No, definitely not.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, Sergeant, there may be

          21       more questions but that's all I've got for you.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Thomas?

          23                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          24   MR THOMAS:  V59, good morning.

          25   A.  Good morning, Mr Thomas.


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           1   Q.  You remember who I represent, don't you?

           2   A.  I do, yes.

           3   Q.  Just to be clear, your evidence today is that there was

           4       some slight confusion between what you've written and

           5       what you said on 8 October and --

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  -- you might have got the chronology wrong.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  All right.  Can I deal with it in this way: I wonder if

          10       we could just take you to your account that you gave on

          11       7 August.  I know Mr Underwood has just taken you to it

          12       but I just want to do it in this way.  Can we go to

          13       CS95.  I wonder if that could be put up on the screen.

          14       Can we just go to the very top and can we just -- yes,

          15       that's it there, pause it there just for one moment.

          16           All right, now, can you just remind us, Officer, in

          17       August 2011 how long had you been a police officer for?

          18   A.  13 years.

          19   Q.  It would be fair to say that you weren't new to the job?

          20   A.  That's correct.

          21   Q.  All right.  This is your witness statement, correct,

          22       that you made, and this is your 7 August witness

          23       statement so this is the opportunity that you've had,

          24       after some rest -- I think you and your colleagues

          25       had -- didn't make full statements on 4 August, you had


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           1       a rest break, time to just get your minds together,

           2       focus your thoughts, get some refreshment, get some

           3       sleep, before you had to make the statement?

           4   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           5   Q.  We can see that it says:

           6           "This statement (consisting of 11 pages each signed

           7       by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief

           8       and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in

           9       evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have

          10       wilfully stated anything in it, which I know to be false

          11       or do not believe to be true."

          12   A.  That's correct, yes.

          13   Q.  You understood that declaration when you made this

          14       statement?

          15   A.  I did, yes.

          16   Q.  We can see -- I don't ask Mr Scott to do this -- but you

          17       can see the statement runs to some seven pages in the

          18       typed version, I think it's 11 pages in the manuscript.

          19   A.  That's correct, yes.

          20   Q.  All right.  That was signed by yourself?

          21   A.  It was.

          22   Q.  Okay.  So can we just go to page CS100.  That's page 6

          23       of 7 and just call it up on screen, it's near the top.

          24       I do want you to follow this with me, so it's about

          25       a third of the way down:


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           1           "I asked R31 to look for a firearm within a few

           2       moments he informed me that he had found one on the

           3       other side of the wall from where the stop took place.

           4       I was conscious of the need to get further resources to

           5       our position ..."

           6           Then you go on to say that there were some ARV

           7       officers coming and then a little later you say:

           8           "Upon arrival of the ARV officers I directed one of

           9       them to secure the firearm."

          10           Pause there.  Just so everyone understands the point

          11       that's being made: the sequence is R31 finds the

          12       firearm -- yes, this is in your statement -- and then

          13       the ARV officers arrive and then you tell them to go and

          14       secure the firearm, correct?

          15   A.  According to my statement, yes.

          16   Q.  That's the sequence.  You see, you don't have psychic

          17       powers, do you?

          18   A.  Of course not, Mr Thomas, no.

          19   Q.  No, all right.  Let's just pause there, because I want

          20       to take you to another account that you made.  Can we

          21       go, please, to CS104.  This is a statement that you made

          22       on 18 January 2012.  Now, in fairness to you, this is

          23       a statement that you're making in response to some

          24       queries that the IPCC have made of you, correct?

          25   A.  Yes, that's correct.


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           1   Q.  If you look through it, just have a quick look to

           2       yourself on the screen, you can see that you're

           3       answering and responding to various questions, that

           4       they're seeking clarification of you of your witness

           5       statement; do you see that?

           6   A.  Yes, I do.

           7   Q.  All right.  At the top of the page, the same declaration

           8       of truth, that, you know, everything in your statement,

           9       you know, is true to the best of your knowledge and

          10       belief and you don't make any false statements in it --

          11   A.  That's correct, yes.

          12   Q.  -- and you realise that you would be liable for

          13       prosecution if you did so.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Again, this statement you signed and you were happy

          16       with, correct?

          17   A.  Yes, I was.

          18   Q.  Now, on that first page, if we go down towards the end,

          19       I appreciate it's not directly on point, but you do say

          20       this -- you deal with what happens before, you deal with

          21       what the movements of the officers at the time of the

          22       shooting and then you deal with the movement of the

          23       officers after the shooting and you say this, four lines

          24       from the bottom:

          25           "With regard to the movements and actions of the


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           1       officers after the shots impacted, I can add nothing

           2       further to what is provided in my original statement."

           3           Then you go on to talk about regarding the location

           4       of the handgun.  In other words, V59, you accept that in

           5       this statement you are being asked, and you had every

           6       opportunity, to clarify any error or any mistake in your

           7       earlier statement; would that be fair?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  It's right, isn't it, that you don't say -- sorry,

          10       there's a question before it and it's this: you had the

          11       opportunity to think about it before you committed your

          12       thoughts to paper in January 2012; would that be right?

          13   A.  Yes, I did.

          14   Q.  Would I be right in thinking, because the IPCC was

          15       asking you all these questions about the officers'

          16       movements, you gave it careful thought?

          17   A.  Obviously I considered all my answers in that statement.

          18   Q.  Yes.  It's also fair to say that, despite all those

          19       questions, all that careful thought, you were happy,

          20       were you not, with your statement of 7 August?

          21   A.  At that time, yes.

          22   Q.  Yes.  Indeed, as you say in this witness statement,

          23       there is nothing to add, you were happy with your

          24       earlier statement?

          25   A.  Yes, I was.


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           1   Q.  But it doesn't stop there, can I take you to another

           2       witness statement that you made.  Can I take you to your

           3       statement of 31 May 2012, we'll find this in CS107.

           4       Again, if we just focus in on the top paragraph, lo and

           5       behold, same declaration:

           6           "I make this statement" --

           7   A.  It will say that (?) on every statement I complete.

           8   Q.  I'm emphasising the point because it's important that

           9       the jury understand you are not signing these statements

          10       willy nilly.

          11   A.  To save you time, sir, I can tell you every statement

          12       I make will have that at the top there because I make

          13       every statement I can --

          14   Q.  You bear patience with me, V59.  You are not signing

          15       these statements willy nilly; do you understand what

          16       I mean by the expression "willy nilly"?

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, come on, Mr Thomas, let's get on

          18       with it.  We all know the witness statement declaration.

          19       We've been here for 12 weeks now.

          20   MR THOMAS:  Very well, let me continue.

          21           You find this funny, do you?

          22   A.  No, sir, I have explained that all my statements will

          23       have that because every statement I write is to the best

          24       of my knowledge at that time.

          25   Q.  Why are you smiling, what's funny?


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           1   A.  Nothing's funny, sir.

           2   Q.  Very well, let me continue.  Can I ask you to turn to

           3       page CS111?  Again, this is a statement where you're

           4       providing clarification in relation to the movements and

           5       what happened at the time that the gun was found and

           6       just before it.  Can I just take you to halfway down the

           7       page where you're quoting from your earlier statement,

           8       where you say:

           9           "I was conscious that there was no weapon obviously

          10       apparent and therefore tasked R31 to look for

          11       a firearm ..."

          12           Do you see that?

          13   A.  Yes, I do.

          14   Q.  That's a quote.  Then you add -- so this is you

          15       expanding in your May 2012 statement.  You say this:

          16           "I could not see a weapon on the pavement next to

          17       the male.  I had expected there to be a weapon as one of

          18       my officers had just fired his weapon and I [illegible]

          19       that this would have been as a response to an imminent

          20       threat to himself or others.  I had no idea where the

          21       weapon was at this stage.  My reason for asking R31 to

          22       look for a firearm was because he was not carrying out

          23       first aid on the male or performing any other role at

          24       that stage."

          25           Then you say this:


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           1           "He was the only officer I asked at that stage to

           2       search for a weapon and I did not give him any search

           3       parameters."

           4           Then you quote again from your earlier statement:

           5           "... within a few moments he informed me that he had

           6       found one on the other side of the wall from where the

           7       stop took place."

           8           That's a firearm, correct?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Then you say this:

          11           "When the firearm was found I told R31 to remain

          12       with the firearm.  I did not see how the firearm got

          13       into this position nor did I consider how it got there.

          14       I did not see the firearm previously."

          15           Over the page, top of the page and you quote again

          16       from your earlier statement, your 7 August statement:

          17           "On arrival of the ARVs I directed one of them to

          18       secure the firearm".

          19           Pause there.  So again, this is your third statement

          20       where you're confirming the chronology, in other words,

          21       let me spell it out: R31 finds the firearm, the ARV

          22       officers then arrived, you tell them to go and secure

          23       the firearm, correct?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Then you add to your statement:


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           1           "When ARV officers arrived I directed two of them to

           2       ensure the firearm was safe and preserved as evidence as

           3       there was a crowd gathering to the south of the green.

           4       I was not updated in relation to what happened to the

           5       firearm."

           6           Pause there.  A couple of questions that arise out

           7       of this: firstly, that's what you said in May 2012,

           8       correct?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Next question: in this statement, nowhere do you say

          11       that you have two conversations with the ARV officers,

          12       do you?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  In fact, you don't say in your January 2012 statement

          15       that you had two conversations with the ARV officers, do

          16       you?

          17   A.  No.

          18   Q.  Nor do you say in your statement of 8 -- sorry, forgive

          19       me, 7 August 2012 that you had two separate

          20       conversations with the ARV officers; would that be

          21       right?

          22   A.  That's correct, yes.

          23   Q.  Now, let me move on.  You were asked by Mr Underwood

          24       whether you were aware of what the ARV officers

          25       themselves had said and you said that you weren't too


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           1       sure; is that right?

           2   A.  Exactly, yes.

           3   Q.  Can we just call up, please -- because this is evidence

           4       that's already been put in the Inquest, I just want to

           5       give you an opportunity just to deal with it, okay?

           6   A.  Okay.

           7   Q.  Can we call up, please, CS549.  This is PC Fowler's

           8       witness statement, very quickly, just to give you

           9       an opportunity to deal with it.  If we look about

          10       halfway down he says:

          11           "We made our way to the allocation on Ferry Lane."

          12           Do you see that?  I wonder if Mr Scott could just

          13       wriggle that -- do you see that just there, that's where

          14       I'm starting from, okay?  So:

          15           "We made our way to the location on Ferry Lane,

          16       Tottenham, near the junction with Mill Mead Road and

          17       Jarrow Road, arriving approximately five minutes after,

          18       we were met by TST officer V59."

          19           That's you, correct?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.

          21   Q.  So this is when they arrive in the car:

          22           "He stated that there had been a shooting at

          23       an armed vehicle stop and that a firearm and scene

          24       needed to be secured.  I could see an IC3 ..."

          25           That's black, isn't it, African Caribbean, IC3?


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           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  "I could see an IC3 male on his back on the pavement

           3       being given first aid by other TST officers just west of

           4       the junction; I now know this male to be Mark Duggan.

           5       I asked V59 what he needed from us and he stated he

           6       wanted the green area between Ferry Lane and Jarrow Road

           7       sealed off as a crime scene as the firearm was there."

           8           Pause there.  So this officer appears to be in no

           9       doubt that you're telling him, when he arrives in the

          10       car, to go and secure the firearm; would you agree

          11       that's how it reads?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Then he goes on, I will read on:

          14           "There was an iron metal railing in between the

          15       green and the pavement and it was on the other side of

          16       it."

          17           What he's saying is that where you're telling him

          18       the firearm is, he's on Ferry Lane, he's saying that the

          19       firearm is on the other side of the railing; do you

          20       follow?

          21   A.  That's where he's saying it was, yes.  I wasn't telling

          22       him that but that's where he's saying it was.

          23   Q.  Yes.  Then he said this:

          24           "I turned our vehicle around and parked in Jarrow

          25       Road, where a small crowd had already begun to gather.


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           1       PCs Gibson and Christiansen made their way up to the

           2       pavement near the scene itself to secure the

           3       firearm ..."

           4           Pause there.  So that's what the first of the ARV

           5       officers says.  Let me just turn to the second, just to

           6       give you an opportunity to deal with that.  Can we turn,

           7       please, to CS557.  Again, this evidence has already been

           8       read to the jury.  This is a statement dated 9 November

           9       and, again, I want to take this very quickly.  If we go

          10       halfway down, it says -- can you see about ten or so

          11       lines down he says:

          12           "As we arrived at the scene ..."

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  I wonder if Mr Scott could just wriggle the mouse.

          15       Thank you:

          16           "As we arrived at the scene we were met by a TST

          17       officer, who I know as V59."

          18           He talks about seeing the IC3 male, Mark Duggan.

          19       Then about four lines underneath that where it says

          20       Ferry Lane:

          21           "We liaised with V59 ..."

          22           Do you see that?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  "... and asked what he required of us.  He stated that

          25       a firearm was on the other side of the railings and


                                            17
 

 

 


           1       asked that we secure it."

           2           Again, pause there.  So these officers are on Ferry

           3       Lane and this is the second officer who's saying that

           4       when he's speaking to you you're telling him that

           5       there's a firearm on the other side of the railings,

           6       yes, you understand that?

           7   A.  That's what he's written there, yes.

           8   Q.  All right.  Third officer: can we turn to CS553.  This

           9       is PC Gibson's statement.  Again, I want to take it

          10       halfway down:

          11           "We arrived at the location on Ferry Lane, within

          12       five minutes were met by V59."

          13           That's you.  Again, four lines underneath that:

          14           "We liaised with V59 who stated that a firearm was

          15       in the grassed area just the other side of the iron

          16       railings and asked that we secure it."

          17           Yes, do you see that?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  All right.  So that is the evidence of the three ARV

          20       officers who came to support you, all saying that on

          21       arrival, when they first meet you, you tell them to

          22       secure the firearm.  Let me ask you to deal with this:

          23       none of these officers say that they have you telling

          24       them later on to secure the firearm; you say that's what

          25       you do, is it?


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           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  All right.  The next in sequence that I'm going to put

           3       to you is your evidence to this jury.  So you came here

           4       on 8 October and you swore an oath to tell the truth and

           5       Mr Underwood has already put to you the evidence, and

           6       it's the evidence where you say, to this jury this, this

           7       is at page 145 and I'm taking it at line 16:

           8           "Answer: I turned to R31, who at this stage wasn't

           9       undertaking any first aid or any other tasks, and

          10       I asked him to look for the firearm.

          11           "Question: What happened after that in relation to

          12       that firearm?

          13           "Answer: After a few minutes he informed me that he

          14       had found a gun on the other side of the railings on the

          15       grass area.

          16           "Question: What did you do, if anything?

          17           "Answer: At this stage, I -- we had further

          18       resources coming to assist us anyway.  I think, as

          19       an ARV arrived, I asked them to go and preserve the

          20       scene where that gun had been found."

          21           Pause there.  V59, can you help us all with this:

          22       this was the evidence you gave on 8 October?

          23   A.  Yes, it was.

          24   Q.  Right.  That's, what, about six weeks ago, something

          25       like that, yes?


                                            19
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Maybe eight weeks ago, it's two months now.  Let's just

           3       be clear on this: the 7 August 2011, you were clear in

           4       your mind that after the ARV officers -- sorry, by the

           5       time the ARV officers had arrived, the gun had been

           6       found; that's what you were saying?

           7   A.  Mm-hmm.

           8   Q.  You repeat that in your next statement, or you don't

           9       change that in your next statement in January?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Then we've got the May statement of 2012, you repeat it.

          12       Then you repeat it in your evidence before this jury.

          13       Help us, V59: when did you realise that you had made

          14       a mistake?

          15   A.  When I was asked to speak with Mr Scott recently.

          16   Q.  Let me come to that.  Can we come to Mr Scott's

          17       interview with you.  This is the interview that Mr Scott

          18       conducted with you on 22 November of this year.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Now, Mr Scott -- is that interview up, can we pull that

          21       interview up?  Yes, thank you very much.

          22           A couple of questions to ask you before I come to

          23       the meat of the interview, and the first is: V59, when

          24       you left on 8 October, you were happy with the evidence

          25       that you had given to this jury, correct?


                                            20
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, I was.

           2   Q.  What was it that made you suddenly realise the evidence

           3       was wrong?

           4   A.  Well, I had a discussion with Mr Scott in relation to

           5       it.

           6   Q.  The discussion with which Mr Scott?

           7   A.  Mr Scott who's just sat there (indicates).

           8   Q.  We don't know -- Mr Stern says there's only one

           9       Mr Scott; I'm entitled to ask for clarification.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's all right, there's no doubt

          11       about it, it's this Mr Scott.

          12   MR THOMAS:  So it's this Mr Scott.  Again, can we be clear

          13       about this.  You say when you had a discussion with

          14       Mr Scott.  Are you talking about in the interview?

          15   A.  I spoke to Mr Scott in the interview in relation to what

          16       happened, yes.

          17   Q.  All right.  Let's have a look at the interview then.  So

          18       are you saying it's only in the interview you became

          19       aware that there was an error in your evidence?

          20   A.  I -- I can't exactly remember, exactly, how it came

          21       about, whether it was during interview, marginally

          22       before the tape was turned, I don't know.  We discussed

          23       what happened.

          24   Q.  So I'm clear, up until the point when you walked into

          25       the interview room, you had no idea that there was


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       a problem with your evidence; is that right?

           2   A.  I had spoken with Mr Scott, I had spoken with my own

           3       legal people marginally before speaking with Mr Scott.

           4       Obviously I arrived at their offices and I went to speak

           5       to Mr Scott.

           6   Q.  Did anybody tell you that there was a problem with your

           7       evidence?  That's the question.

           8   A.  No one told me there was a problem.  There was

           9       a question that needed clarifying.

          10   Q.  Right.  So before you went into the interview, you were

          11       told that there was a problem that needed clarifying

          12       with your evidence?

          13   A.  There was an issue needed clarifying, yes.

          14   Q.  Were you told what that issue was?

          15   A.  I was told it was in relation to the arrival of the ARV.

          16   Q.  Was that all that you were told?

          17   A.  Mr Thomas, I honestly can't remember the exact details

          18       of what I was told.

          19   Q.  Let's have a look at the interview.

          20   A.  Okay.

          21   Q.  So, the interview starts and Mr Scott asks you this:

          22           "I'll just introduce myself.  My name is Nick Scott

          23       from the Mark Duggan Inquest team.  Also present is ..."

          24           You give your details, V59, and then Mr Ingram

          25       introduces himself, correct?


                                            22
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  "Mr Scott: And it's about 10.10 am on Friday the ...

           3       I think it's the 22nd, isn't it?"

           4           Somebody says:

           5           "22nd, yes."

           6           Then Mr Scott says:

           7           "Just a couple of questions about the briefing that

           8       you gave to the ARV officers when they arrived at the

           9       Ferry Lane scene on 4 August 2011.  Firstly, I'd just

          10       like to read out to you some of the oral evidence you

          11       gave on the transcript.  This is 8 October, page 145 to

          12       146, and I see you've got a copy there.  Just picking up

          13       at line 13, the question was ..."

          14           I'm going to read this out:

          15           "'Question: Getting back to your concern that there

          16       is a firearm there somewhere and it's not been found,

          17       what did you do?

          18           "'Answer: I turned to R31, who at this stage wasn't

          19       undertaking any first aid or any other tasks, and

          20       I asked him to look for a firearm.

          21           "'Question: What happened after that in relation to

          22       that firearm?

          23           "'Answer: After a few minutes he informed me that

          24       under found a gun on the other side of the railings on

          25       the grass area.


                                            23
 

 

 


           1           "'Question: What did you do, if anything?

           2           "'Answer: At this stage, I -- we had further

           3       resources come in to assist us anyway.  I think as

           4       an ARV arrived I asked them to go and preserve the scene

           5       where that gun had been found.'"

           6           Then Mr Scott, this is all he says to you:

           7           "Firstly, is there anything you would like to add to

           8       that about what you remember?"

           9           Okay?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Then you say this:

          12           "I think -- obviously in my oral evidence I think

          13       I've got slightly confused about timings."

          14           Pause there.  How did you know there was a problem

          15       with the timings?

          16   A.  I had a very brief conversation with my legal team when

          17       I arrived at their offices.

          18   Q.  Your legal -- you were told there was a problem with

          19       timings, were you?

          20   A.  I was aware there was an issue with what happened when

          21       the ARV arrived, yes.

          22   Q.  You were told what the issue was?

          23   A.  I don't remember if I was told exactly what the issue

          24       was but I had a rough idea what it was going to be

          25       about, yes.


                                            24
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Up until that point you were happy with your evidence,

           2       weren't you?

           3   A.  Yes, I was.

           4   Q.  I wonder if we can play the video, please, of the

           5       arrival of the ARV officers.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

           7   MR THOMAS:  Just before that's played -- (Pause)

           8           In fact, can we just show, please -- bear with me

           9       one second.  (Pause)

          10           Yes, if we can play from there.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  6.51.  All right, let's play on.

          12             (Video footage was played to the court)

          13   MR THOMAS:  Just pause there.

          14                    (The video footage ended)

          15           The first thing to note is the time.  The timing is,

          16       according to the internal timing on the video, 6.55,

          17       okay?  You are the one with the pink or purple arrow

          18       above you, correct?

          19   A.  I am, yes.

          20   Q.  We can see that's the ARV -- sorry, that's the ARV

          21       vehicle that arrives with the three officers and I have

          22       just read to you what they say.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  They are saying at this stage you are telling them to go

          25       and secure the gun on the other side of the railings --


                                            25
 

 

 


           1       I see you shaking your head -- but they are saying to

           2       you to go and secure the gun on the other side of the

           3       railings.  Now, there's a problem, isn't there?  The gun

           4       hadn't been found, so it begs the question: how did you

           5       know the gun was on the other side of the railings?

           6   A.  Mr Thomas, if I told them to secure the gun why are they

           7       driving to Jarrow Road, they would have walked across to

           8       the gun, which was over the other side of the railings.

           9       They drove into Jarrow Road because I told them to go to

          10       Jarrow Road, that's why.

          11   Q.  V59, you avoided my question, may I put the question

          12       again?

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, no, he didn't.

          14           Can I just get clarified, just so we all know where

          15       we are: you're there talking to the ARV officers?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You now tell us what you believe you

          18       had said.  Do you accept that after this, then if you

          19       play on a few seconds we'll find the -- Z51 is the blue

          20       arrow, and then R31 is the yellow arrow, he'll appear

          21       behind the bushes and that the gun is then found after

          22       that?

          23   A.  I believe so, sir, yes.

          24        (Video footage was played to the court and ended)

          25           At 7.29 I believe the gun is found.


                                            26
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  7.29?

           2   MR THOMAS:  Can we just pause it there, unless you have more

           3       questions?

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I wanted him to clarify that.

           5   MR THOMAS:  Can we just put it back a bit.

           6             (Video footage was played to the court)

           7   MR THOMAS:  I will play it on.

           8                    (The video footage ended)

           9   MR THOMAS:  V59, the gun is found at about 7.29.  I'm going

          10       to suggest to you, V59, so you can deal with it, that

          11       you knew where the gun was before the officers had gone

          12       round because you and/or your colleagues had planted it

          13       there.

          14   A.  Mr Thomas, I find that deeply offensive.  My team are

          15       very professional.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I don't want any argument, just give

          17       your answer.

          18   A.  No, we did not plant any gun at any scene.  I find that

          19       highly offensive.

          20   MR THOMAS:  Let's play on.

          21             (Video footage was played to the court)

          22   MR THOMAS:  So this is the ARV officers who are leaving and

          23       going around.

          24           Pause it there.

          25                    (The video footage ended)


                                            27
 

 

 


           1           We can see them in the back, that's them -- they had

           2       not even stopped yet in Jarrow Road, and the gun is

           3       found about this time, correct?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  So before they get out of their cars.  This is when the

           6       gun has been found, after your conversation.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  You're saying that they have got it wrong --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- and you got it wrong previously?

          11   A.  At the time -- previously, yes.

          12   Q.  Somebody tipped you off about the video, didn't they?

          13   A.  Mr Thomas, please don't say things like that.  You're

          14       offending me.

          15   Q.  I will say things like that and I will repeat it:

          16       somebody tipped you off about the video?

          17   A.  No, no one tipped me off about the video.

          18   Q.  Let's play on.

          19        (Video footage was played to the court and ended)

          20   MR THOMAS:  Pause there.  Sorry, there was a little bit of

          21       discussion.  Mr Scott, could you just go back a little

          22       bit, please.

          23             (Video footage was played to the court)

          24   MR THOMAS:  So this is after the gun's been found.

          25           Pause it there.


                                            28
 

 

 


           1                    (The video footage ended)

           2           Now, you can see these are the ARV officers who are

           3       now, only now, walking onto the green; do you see them?

           4   A.  Yes, I do, yes.

           5   Q.  Let's play on.

           6             (Video footage was played to the court)

           7           You can see that they walk over to where the gun is,

           8       and they stop there.

           9           Right, just pause it there.

          10                    (The video footage ended)

          11           Can I just ask you this: would you agree that the

          12       ARV officers are on the other side of the railing next

          13       to the gun?

          14   A.  Yes, they are.

          15   Q.  Would you agree that where they were previously, where

          16       you had the conversation, where you had the conversation

          17       with them when they initially pulled up on Ferry Lane,

          18       was on the other side of the railings?

          19   A.  Yes, it was.

          20   Q.  Would you agree that, if you had a conversation --

          21       a second conversation with them -- and they are standing

          22       by the gun, there's no need for them to say "V59 told us

          23       to secure the gun on the other side of the railings"; do

          24       you follow?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            29
 

 

 


           1   Q.  It wouldn't make any sense, would it?

           2   A.  Well, the gun was found on the other side of the

           3       railings from where the stop took place, so yes.

           4   Q.  Let's play on.

           5             (Video footage was played to the court)

           6           Now, I would like you to point out for us when you

           7       say you had the second conversation with them.

           8   A.  I believe I had a number of conversations with them.

           9       I believe it was about 9 minutes and 2, or somewhere

          10       around the 9-minute mark, you can quite clearly see me

          11       speaking to them.

          12   MR THOMAS:  Pause there, let's be clear about this.

          13                    (The video footage ended)

          14           The second conversation that I'm asking you about is

          15       the conversation where you say, it's your evidence,

          16       "That's when I told them to secure the gun".

          17   A.  I don't know if that's on this video or not, sir.

          18       I know I told them to stay with the gun so I could

          19       release R31 who was part of the firearms team.  When

          20       that exactly was I have no idea according to this video,

          21       but I'm aware that's what happened.

          22   Q.  You have been caught out, haven't you?

          23   A.  How so, sir?

          24   Q.  You've been caught out in a lie, haven't you?

          25   A.  What lie?


                                            30
 

 

 


           1   Q.  The lie in relation to when the gun was known about?

           2   A.  Please do not call me a liar.  I have come here to give

           3       evidence and I've not been caught out, I've told no

           4       lies.

           5   Q.  Can I take you back to your interview with Mr Scott?

           6       The ARV officers, we can see, are standing by the gun.

           7   A.  Yes, they are.

           8   Q.  In fact they are by the gun and they are essentially

           9       just standing there.  Why would you need to tell them to

          10       secure the gun if they were already standing by the gun?

          11   A.  So I could release R31.

          12   Q.  Yes, but you can just release R31, they're there.

          13   A.  No, because they would not know what to do, they would

          14       not know they are in charge of that particular scene.

          15   Q.  Who put the gun there, who put the gun on the green?

          16   A.  No one put the gun on the green.  Mark Duggan had the

          17       gun in his hand and it ended up on the green.

          18   Q.  Did you see the gun in Mark Duggan's hand?

          19   A.  No.

          20   Q.  How can you say so boldly he had the gun in his hand?

          21   MR STERN:  Why did he ask that question then?  If my learned

          22       friend knew that he didn't see the gun, which he would

          23       have done from the very many statements that have been

          24       seen, why does he ask the provocative question that he

          25       asks on many occasions and is quite so provocative in


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       relation to the questions that he's asking and the

           2       manner in which he's asking them?  This is really not

           3       acceptable.

           4   MR THOMAS:  I'm sorry my learned friend feels that way.

           5   MR STERN:  I do.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas --

           7   MR THOMAS:  These are perfectly proper questions and this

           8       jury are entitled to proper answers.

           9   A.  Sir, you have accused me of planting a gun --

          10   MR THOMAS:  I accused you of being a liar, as well.

          11   A.  -- that's not proper, as far as I'm concerned.  Exactly,

          12       that's not proper.  I came here to give evidence and

          13       tell the truth.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you V59.  Let's see if anyone

          15       else has some question for him.

          16           Yes, Mr Stern?

          17                      Questions by MR STERN

          18   MR STERN:  I have some questions rather than comments, if

          19       I may.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That was a comment.

          21   MR STERN:  That was a comment; I have some questions and

          22       some comments.

          23           Can we have a look at 6.03 on the video, please.

          24       Just so we can see the sequence of it, we're coming up

          25       to it and, just so I can tell you what we're going to


                                            32
 

 

 


           1       see, this is the yellow arrow, R31 going --

           2             (Video footage was played to the court)

           3           -- over the fence, hanging onto the lamp post and

           4       going over the fence, yes?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Let's watch that so we can see that.  That's where he

           7       goes off.  That's 6.03.  We'll keep playing it.

           8           The next thing that happens is at 6.54, we'll look

           9       to the left and we'll see the ARV arrive.  Please don't

          10       stop it because you'll see that the ARV and your

          11       conversation with them is, I think, just a few seconds.

          12           6.44, so it's coming up any moment, that was the

          13       extent of the conversation.  Can you remember now what

          14       it was --

          15           Just pausing there if we may.

          16                    (The video footage ended)

          17           Can you remember now what the nature of that

          18       conversation was?

          19   A.  Yes, I asked them to secure the green area because I was

          20       concerned about people coming from Jarrow Road that may

          21       contaminate the scene while we were searching for the

          22       firearm.

          23   Q.  If you had told them to secure a firearm where would you

          24       have expected them to go, because you said that you

          25       wouldn't have expected them to drive all the way round


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       onto the other side of Jarrow Road?

           2   A.  I would have expected them to get out of the car and

           3       walk across to where the firearm, if it had been found,

           4       was.

           5   Q.  But they don't do that, what they do is they drive right

           6       the way round onto Jarrow Road and we'll see them come

           7       round at 7.28 if you watch them.

           8             (Video footage was played to the court)

           9           Here it comes, we'll see the car any second.  If we

          10       could just stop it there.  They came round rather

          11       quickly, according to Mr Noble-Thompson.  There we are,

          12       we can see them coming quite fast there.

          13                    (The video footage ended)

          14           Now, you were at the time, and are, a Sergeant --

          15   A.  That's correct.

          16   Q.  -- and they obviously would have to take orders from

          17       you?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  If they would have gone round there, if you would have

          20       told them to secure a firearm, what would your thoughts

          21       have been in that regard?

          22   A.  I would have been very unimpressed and I would have

          23       shouted at them as they have driven off down the road.

          24   Q.  So they have driven round there.  What other purpose

          25       could they have gone round all the way around to Jarrow


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       Road for if it was not to preserve the scene?

           2   A.  I cannot think of any other reason to go round there

           3       otherwise.

           4   Q.  Can we play on a little bit?

           5             (Video footage was played to the court)

           6           I am not sure of the exact time at which the firearm

           7       was found.  There's Z51 -- just been found by then.  So

           8       we can see he's come out, R31 has probably found it by

           9       now as well.

          10           So the firearm has been found.  You're standing,

          11       according to the blue arrow, just outside the green area

          12       and do you think you've been made aware that the firearm

          13       has been found then or can you not say?

          14   A.  I think I'm the purple arrow there, I've just been made

          15       aware, yes.

          16   Q.  I beg your pardon, purple arrow.

          17   A.  By that point I had been made aware, yes.

          18   Q.  Right.  So we can now see the ARV officers have come up,

          19       and I think been pulled over by R31.  Then if we just --

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sorry, was that a question because it needs

          21       an answer?

          22   A.  Yes, the ARV officers arrived.

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sorry, the comment was: they were called over

          24       by R31.

          25                    (The video footage ended)


                                            35
 

 

 


           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  If that's going to be evidence, it needs to

           2       be a question and answer.

           3   A.  I cannot say whether they were called over by R31 or

           4       not.  They've arrived with R31.

           5   MR STERN:  All right.  So then we go to, I think, if we

           6       look --

           7             (Video footage was played to the court)

           8           The arrows have gone now so it's not so easy to see

           9       where you are, but are you in that area in that

          10       vicinity, as far as you can tell?

          11   A.  I am somewhere still there, yes.

          12   Q.  During the course of that time, do you have

          13       conversations with the ARV officers?

          14   A.  I believe, in about ten seconds' time, I have

          15       a conversation with an ARV officer.  I'm now between the

          16       Land Rover at the back and the boot of the BMW of the

          17       Charlie car.

          18   Q.  Just pause there.

          19                    (The video footage ended)

          20           Where are you there?

          21   A.  Just there, that's me there.  I believe that's me.  From

          22       the walk, it looks like me.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where are we looking at?

          24   A.  If you look at the rear of the vehicle, where the cursor

          25       is there.


                                            36
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's you, is it?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   MR STERN:  You're talking to an ARV officer?

           4   A.  I believe I'm talking to PC Fowler there.

           5   Q.  I think, although it's not clear, if we just play it

           6       back a little bit, PC Fowler you say it is, does he come

           7       over to talk to you?

           8   A.  PC Fowler is -- has a shaved head and there's a shaved

           9       headed male ARV officer who walks over to me, the other

          10       two have hair, so from the video it appeared to be

          11       PC Fowler who walked over towards my position.

          12   Q.  Then you have a conversation; what it is your

          13       conversation is then as best you can remember?

          14   A.  As best I can remember, that will be when I'm asking him

          15       to secure the firearm and release R31 back to the rest

          16       of the firearms team.

          17   Q.  But in any event you cannot say precisely because you

          18       had had a number of conversations?

          19   A.  I don't know exactly what happened, there were a number

          20       of conversations and it was quite a confused scene, lots

          21       of things happening at the same time.

          22   Q.  Let me ask you just one thing as you have come back to

          23       give evidence about this.  Can I ask you this: did you

          24       see a BlackBerry mobile phone on the ground?

          25   A.  No, I didn't.


                                            37
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Did you see or did you yourself ever put a BlackBerry

           2       mobile phone back in the minicab?

           3   A.  No, I didn't.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you see any mobile phone on the

           5       ground?

           6   A.  I didn't, sir, no.

           7   MR STERN:  That was my first question and he said no.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, BlackBerry --

           9   MR STERN:  I beg your pardon.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- because there were two.  I want

          11       to cover both.

          12   MR STERN:  Thank you, yes, of course.

          13   A.  If it helps, I saw no mobile phones at any time.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That does help, yes.

          15   MR STERN:  Sorry, no, thank you very much.

          16           Did you see anybody go into the minicab and open the

          17       box, remove the gun and, by some means or other, place

          18       it about 14 feet from Mark Duggan?

          19   A.  No, absolutely not, sir.

          20   Q.  Then did you see Z51 find the gun -- I do not think you

          21       did, did you, you saw R31 who informed you?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          24   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you not represent PC Gibson,


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       Christiansen and Fowler, Mr Keith?

           2   MR KEITH:  I do but I have no questions to ask, thank you

           3       very much.

           4   MR STERN:  Sorry, there's just one matter, my learned friend

           5       Mr Ingram reminds me.  I should just deal with this.

           6           So far as Mr Thomas' comment about "somebody tipped

           7       you off", I think he said.  Did you have any

           8       conversation with Mr Ingram or anyone else about this

           9       prior to your arrival at the interview with Mr Scott?

          10   A.  No, I did not.

          11   Q.  Sir, Mr Thomas ought to know, because, as I recall the

          12       position, we sent an email to your team in relation to

          13       this, declining to speak to V59 -- so that Mr Thomas

          14       wasn't able to make this very point -- declining to

          15       speak to him, and Mr Underwood -- until the family

          16       agreed or the family's representatives agreed.

          17           We didn't hear back and so, although I think you

          18       attended for an appointment to see Mr Ingram, that was

          19       cancelled, was it?

          20   A.  (Pause)

          21           Yes -- I can't remember exactly.

          22   Q.  The week before.

          23   A.  I was due to meet Mr Ingram and I did try and contact

          24       him in relation to other matters and he said it was best

          25       he didn't speak to me.


                                            39
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You did not speak to Mr Ingram before this interview

           2       about that?

           3   A.  No.

           4   Q.  That email was sent to or should have been with

           5       Mr Thomas and he should have seen that.  If he hasn't,

           6       I don't quite understand why.

           7   MR THOMAS:  Sir, I haven't suggested that the tip off was

           8       from the solicitor and I don't make that suggestion.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's see what suggestions can be

          10       made in due course, but in any event --

          11   MR STERN:  I thought I would clarify that.  I'm grateful to

          12       my instructing solicitor Mr Ingram, thank you.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

          14           Sorry, Mr Butt.

          15                       Questions by MR BUTT

          16   MR BUTT:  It's been suggested that you've been caught out,

          17       tipped off and that you have then made up an account

          18       after that tip off to lie to the jury; you recall that

          19       and you reject that, yes.

          20   A.  I do wholeheartedly reject that, yes.

          21   Q.  You say, in fact, that you are confused as to the

          22       precise sequence of events that occurred after the

          23       shooting on Ferry Lane; is that right?

          24   A.  I was confused, yes.

          25   Q.  I wonder if we could just look at one series of


                                            40
 

 

 


           1       questions and answers that you were asked on 8 October.

           2       It's page 172 of the PDF version.  I'm looking at

           3       a slightly different version.  I think this is the same

           4       though.  You were asked, to begin with about Z51 and

           5       then I think it's Mr Mansfield says -- or Mr Thomas:

           6           "I don't want at that take time running it back if

           7       you can remember this.  There's a section here too when

           8       you go across, with the man in the white shirt, to

           9       a police car?

          10           "Answer: Yes."

          11           That's the sequence we have just seen when the ARV

          12       comes up; is that correct?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  You are then asked.

          15           "Question: Which then travels round, and we can

          16       see -- if you want to see it, we can see it, he travels

          17       round to the road beyond the green; do you follow?

          18           "Answer: Yes.

          19           "Question: What was that all about?

          20           "Answer: As I mentioned earlier, there was a group

          21       of people there and I was concerned about the scene

          22       becoming contaminated.  There was an armed response

          23       vehicle that had arrived to assist."

          24           Then a little later on, the learned Coroner says:

          25           "You are here pointing at something, aren't you,


                                            41
 

 

 


           1       further up, at that stage?

           2           "Answer: I think -- I can't honestly say what I was

           3       doing so I would imagine I'm talking about a cordon at

           4       the top of the road there.  I don't know for sure."

           5           Is that you describing, when asked on 8 October,

           6       what your conversation was with the ARV officers, and

           7       you are in fact saying that you sent them to secure the

           8       scene at the top on Jarrow Road?

           9   A.  Yes, that's exactly it.

          10   MR BUTT:  Thank you very much.

          11   A.  Thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, Ms Leek, you're here; do you

          13       want to ask any questions?

          14   MS LEEK:  No, thank you.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

          16   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Back to you, Mr Underwood.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising out of that, thank you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right thank you very much then V59,

          20       you're free now to go.

          21   A.  Thank you.

          22                      (The witness withdrew)

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps I could just confirm what my learned

          24       friend Mr Stern said.  For our part, our team would have

          25       been perfectly content for Mr Ingram to have


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       re-interviewed V59 about these matters but he, wisely no

           2       doubt, suggested that it would be better for that not to

           3       happen unless the family's team consented to it and they

           4       didn't consent, so it was done in the way that you have

           5       seen.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There's no doubt about it that if

           7       everyone was alert when V59 was giving his evidence the

           8       first time he could have been asked all this at that

           9       stage.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The fact is that one of our number,

          12       perhaps more equipped than others, was able to look into

          13       this apparent discrepancy and we've got the position

          14       now, and I will welcome some legal advice about this, as

          15       to what to do, because we have three Metropolitan Police

          16       whose evidence has been read, and it's unchallenged,

          17       that something was said, and now we've got V59 saying

          18       they're wrong.

          19           Shortly I shall have to say something to the jury

          20       about how I deal with that, but there we are.  I've

          21       flagged it up, I'll no doubt have some people saying

          22       something to me in due course.  Is there any further

          23       evidence you seek to call on my behalf?

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  That is the end of the evidence.

          25   MR STERN:  Sir, may I say in relation to that that I do not


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       want to upset the party but if you're concerned about

           2       this, then obviously these witnesses could come and give

           3       evidence, I certainly don't object.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You don't represent them, Mr Keith

           5       does.

           6   MR STERN:  Exactly.  I'm saying that for my part I have no

           7       difficulty with them re-attending -- well, attending

           8       because, as you rightly said, no one noticed the point

           9       and their statements were read.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have heard what I've said,

          11       I shall have to deal with that but, in any event, we

          12       have uncontroverted evidence versus this evidence, so

          13       there we are.

          14           Right, members of the jury, it may be that the words

          15       you have been waiting to hear for a number of weeks have

          16       now been said, that we have now completed all the

          17       evidence that you are to hear in this Inquest.

          18           Now, as you are aware, there are various stages that

          19       have to be gone through to make sure everything is in

          20       order for me to sum the case up to you.  I can't at this

          21       moment tell you exactly when that will be.  What I am

          22       going to ask you to do is to leave us for today but

          23       allow those in charge of you to be able to contact you

          24       later on, perhaps this afternoon, to see whether you are

          25       required tomorrow, and if so when, or whether you are


                                            44
 

 

 


           1       not required until Monday.

           2           I'm sorry about that.  You would think that the

           3       Judge ought to be able to control the timing.  I do try

           4       my very, very best but I am not quite sure at all what

           5       is still left for me to resolve, so that's why I cannot

           6       be any more definite about it.  I know that I have asked

           7       you to be available on Friday, and I thank you all that

           8       you have made steps so that can be done, but whether

           9       I can ask you to come back tomorrow and start my

          10       summing-up to you, I know not at the moment.  All right?

          11           So what I'm going to ask you to do -- that's it for

          12       you today.  So if you would like to leave us then, those

          13       in charge will be in touch with you later on about

          14       whether you're required tomorrow or Monday.


                                            45


          22   (1.22 pm)

          23   (The Inquest adjourned until 11.00 am on Monday, 9 December

          24                          at the latest)

          25


                                           104
 


           1                              INDEX

           2                                                       PAGE

           3   V59 (re-sworn) .......................................1

           4       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................1

           5       Questions by MR THOMAS ...........................5

           6       Questions by MR STERN ...........................32

           7       Questions by MR BUTT ............................40

           8   Submissions re V59's evidence by ....................46
                         MR KEITH
           9
               Submissions by MR KEITH .............................50
          10
               Submissions by MS LEEK ..............................64
          11
               Submissions by MR BUTT ..............................64
          12
               Submissions by MR STERN .............................67
          13
               Submissions by MR THOMAS ............................94
          14

         
                                           105