Transcript of the Hearing 11 December 2013

 

           1                                    Wednesday, 11 December 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We will have

           4       the cameras off then, please, and ask the jury to come

           5       into court.

           6                  (In the presence of the jury)

           7                      Summing-up (continued)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Now we are all ready, we

           9       will pick off where we left off earlier on, and that is

          10       going through the accounts of the various CO19 officers

          11       and we have reached the stage now where I remind you of

          12       what W70 had to say.

          13                     The Shooting (continued)

          14                          W70's Account

          15           We have in our little folders what he had to say in

          16       his initial account and in his more detailed statement.

          17       His evidence can be summarised in this form:

          18           W70 had not been on the operation on 3 August.  On

          19       4 August he was given a brief precis of what the

          20       circumstances were and what had been given on the FA1.

          21       He had his Glock, his MP5 and Hatton gun.  He was in the

          22       car, as we know, with R68 and V53.  V53 gave the

          23       occupants of that car a brief precis, again, of what the

          24       subjects of the operation were like, what they might try

          25       to do around the stop.  This was his first hard stop and


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           1       he said that the officers wait for the driver to tell

           2       them when it is safe to depart.

           3           W70 told us that he heard sirens at the end of the

           4       stop and could not tell where they had came from.  As

           5       the cars stopped "Doors, doors" was called by the driver

           6       so he got out of the nearside door at the rear and

           7       looked at the taxi cab to see if that was in any way

           8       non-compliant, to use the technical terms that CO19 use.

           9           He could see the taxi had come to a complete stop,

          10       it did not show any signs of moving.  He saw the

          11       passenger door had slid open and he saw the side profile

          12       of Mr Duggan which appeared from that doorway.  He was

          13       about five metres from Mr Duggan.  He had

          14       an unobstructed view.  He saw Mr Duggan using his

          15       shoulder to pivot round the doorway, starting to face

          16       back towards himself and V53.  He did not recall which

          17       way Mr Duggan was looking.  He did not see Mr Duggan

          18       look up towards W42 and he was not sure if he saw

          19       Mr Duggan's left hand holding anything, or indeed

          20       holding the left lower lapel of his jacket or whether it

          21       was in the pocket of the jacket.

          22           He said that either way Mr Duggan was grabbing hold

          23       of the jacket.  His right hand was crossed inside his

          24       jacket across his waistband towards the left-hand side

          25       of his waistband.  W70 said it was immediately apparent


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           1       that he was concealing something in his jacket (23/10,

           2       page 85).

           3           Mr Duggan then set off in a determined sprint-like

           4       manner and his jacket came round and he pulled it up

           5       slightly.  He then took one or two steps and moved his

           6       arm out and he, W70, could see in his hand was

           7       a self-loading pistol (23/10, page 10).

           8           He focused on the gun (page 13), the right elbow

           9       moved away from his side and W70 could not tell any

          10       details of the gun but could just see the shape of

          11       a pistol side on.  Almost instantaneously, he said, he

          12       heard two shots (page 12).  W70 said that he did not

          13       have time to do anything between seeing the gun emerge

          14       and the shots going off.  He had his Glock ready and he

          15       would have fired, he said.

          16           W70 did not see the position of Mr Duggan's body

          17       change between the two shots.  He said that he was

          18       leaning forward when he came out of the minicab.  W70

          19       did not see Mr Duggan move his jacket other than opening

          20       it slightly.  W70 cannot recall what happened to

          21       Mr Duggan's hands but perceived that he started to

          22       collapse down, on towards his knees, and that then he

          23       brought both hands up to his collar bone.  He said they

          24       were empty.

          25           As Mr Duggan sat back onto his feet W70 grabbed his


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           1       wrists -- and you remember him giving that picture,

           2       grabbing his wrists -- and lowered him onto his back.

           3       Immediately W70 wanted to find out where the pistol had

           4       gone.  He said that he didn't see Mr Duggan point the

           5       gun in his direction.  He said there was nothing

           6       obstructing his view but he did not clearly see what had

           7       happened to the gun (23/10, page 90).

           8           W70 did not see Mr Duggan making a throwing movement

           9       (page 93), W70 did not see any detail of the gun just

          10       that it was a gun-shaped object.  He said he knew that

          11       it was a self-loading pistol because they have quite

          12       a distinctive shape.  He did not see or notice the sock.

          13           W70 cannot recall putting Mr Duggan into an arm lock

          14       but he did see that he pushed him back onto the ground

          15       in the way that he said.

          16           W70 did not see Mr Duggan flinch backwards or fall

          17       backwards after the two shots.  He said that everyone

          18       was shouting "Armed police, stand still".  He himself

          19       was shouting out "Armed police" throughout the whole

          20       episode.  He thought the whole episode took only about

          21       two seconds.

          22           So that was W70's account of the incident.

          23                          W42's Account

          24           Next giving you an account was W42.  He was second

          25       in command in the group, the TST.  He was the deputy


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           1       team leader to the Sergeant who ran the team, who, as we

           2       know, was V59.  That took on a role such as being the

           3       Alpha operator in the MASTS operation.  So he was in the

           4       front car passenger seat.

           5           At state amber, the responsibility to move to red

           6       was his and it was also his responsibility to decide

           7       when and if to call strike.  W42 said that if there had

           8       been nowhere that was a safe approach or safe place to

           9       stop, that control of the vehicle, the taxi, might have

          10       gone into Broadwater Farm.  So he was concerned to call

          11       strike where there was a completely safe place to do

          12       (23/10, page 138-142).

          13           He said that when he calls strike he tells his

          14       driver to go first and then concentrates on letting

          15       other cars know.  The Alpha driver determines when to

          16       overtake for road safety.  Once W42 called the strike,

          17       the overtake was initiated.  Alpha cut in front of the

          18       minicab, W42 had his window open and, as came to us all,

          19       he had the door half open, or "cracked open" to use his

          20       term.

          21           He deployed with his MP5 and his high visibility

          22       baseball cap on.  He thought he was the first CO19

          23       officer actually on the ground, in his terms (23/10,

          24       page 143).  His first intention, he told us, was to get

          25       containment and a point of aim towards the front of the


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           1       cab.  He saw the taxi driver, he saw that he was posing

           2       no threat and that the driver was also concentrating on

           3       the front passenger seat of the Bravo vehicle.

           4           Within two or three steps, W42 told us that he was

           5       on the pavement and was onto the nearside of the minicab

           6       and he saw Mark Duggan exiting the minicab.  The rear

           7       passenger door was already open when he noticed it.

           8       Mr Duggan was in the doorway of the minicab (23/10,

           9       page 145).  Mr Duggan did not face W42 and never made

          10       eye contact with him.  His right arm was tucked inside

          11       his jacket with his hand completely out of view.

          12           Mr Duggan had turned away immediately and made his

          13       way towards the rear of the minicab in a hurried manner.

          14       He did not see a gun fly through the air (page 147).

          15       W42 shouted out "Show me your hands".  He did not see

          16       any other officer on the ground.  After Duggan got out,

          17       he saw the Charlie officers with their feet on the

          18       ground.  At that point W42 had, he said, tunnel vision

          19       towards Mr Duggan's body, concentrating on that alone

          20       (page 149).

          21           W42 saw his right elbow move out a few inches and

          22       W42 said he then shouted out "He's reaching, he's

          23       reaching".  He then heard two gunshots.  He was

          24       stationary to keep containment, move forward, but by the

          25       time he was shot he had himself not seen any gun.


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           1           He was shot and he learnt later the bullet landed in

           2       the radio which is underneath his left armpit, do you

           3       remember him telling us where exactly that was and

           4       demonstrating.

           5           He said in cross-examination (page 155) "If Mark

           6       Duggan had a gun in his hand when he was facing me, W42,

           7       then I would have seen it".  So that was his account and

           8       we can remember that finally when the photograph was put

           9       to him he put a circle on it, which you have, as to

          10       where he believed he was when he was shot.  Other people

          11       feel that the circle was a bit too far to the right near

          12       the railings than would be correct but that was his

          13       evidence from his recollection.

          14                          V48's Account

          15           Now his account, V48's account, was that he was the

          16       driver of the Alpha car.  On 4 August, he had his Glock,

          17       a Taser and MP5 (22/10, page 2).  V48 said they were

          18       looking for a stop to stop what's called a gold minicab.

          19       He thought it was gold from the surveillance comment

          20       Friday but agreed from the photographs that it was

          21       silver.  He first saw eight to ten cars in front of the

          22       CO19 convoy as they were approaching Blackhorse Road

          23       train station.  They had to work through the convoy to

          24       get in front of the minicab which took some time.  They

          25       could not use any two tones or blue lights at that stage


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           1       (page 5).

           2           When state red was called they were five cars away

           3       from the minicab.  As soon as they were behind the

           4       minicab and in position, then he heard "Strike, strike,

           5       strike" being called (22/10, page 6).

           6           V48 thought the stop went as well as it does in

           7       training.  He did not have to use lights or sirens

           8       (page 6), he did not hear any sirens and after he

           9       stopped the car he got out and turned right to go along

          10       the offside of the car and turn right to go his behind

          11       car in between his car and the Bravo car.  He saw the

          12       minicab driver and W42.  He did not see anyone else.  He

          13       said that the box marked A in the plan that we know is

          14       where he was when he heard two shots being fired.

          15       (22/10, page 8).

          16           He had not seen Mr Duggan before the shots were

          17       fired at all.  He thought there was a distinct gap

          18       between the two shots.  He was on the road.  He did not

          19       duck or draw his Glock.  Then after the shots were heard

          20       he ran over to the pavement and turned along the

          21       nearside of the minicab and headed towards the back.  He

          22       then saw Mr Duggan on the floor in the area, as we know,

          23       outside the minicab.

          24           He said that he was face down with W70 holding

          25       Mr Duggan in an arm lock.  V48 was on the pavement by


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           1       the bonnet of the minicab which he marked on the plan.

           2       W42 was behind him in an area, as well, parallel to the

           3       pavement.

           4           He went to assist W70.  They rolled Mr Duggan onto

           5       his back and searched for weapons or firearms.  But

           6       found none.  They carried out first aid on Mr Duggan.

           7       There was a very, very short period before V53 came

           8       over.  He then assisted V53 until the paramedics

           9       arrived.  When he was on the pavement, he did not hear

          10       any indication that Mark Duggan had a gun and when he

          11       was giving Mr Duggan first aid, he said there was no

          12       firearm in the vicinity.  He did not see a firearm

          13       flying through the air at any time.

          14           So that was V48.

          15                          R68's Account

          16           Now, we come to the account of R68, the driver of

          17       the Charlie vehicle.  He had his Glock, his MP5, a Taser

          18       and indeed a G36 rifle to hand if needed (22/10,

          19       page 43).  He said that historically, before this, V53,

          20       W70, R68, that's him, were all from the same team.  They

          21       were not all from the same team, you remember there were

          22       two teams joined in this team of 12 or so officers.

          23           But they discussed in the car that on previous

          24       occasions members of the Tottenham Man Dem had tried to

          25       escape during stops and had used violence to escape, and


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           1       indeed tried to break out of stops before.  R68 would

           2       not expect other members of his car to get out of his

           3       car until he had stopped it and put it actually into

           4       park.  R68 said the Bravo used sirens when the stop went

           5       in.  He thought the stop was textbook due to the

           6       positions of the vehicles and the fact that they were

           7       around the vehicle extremely quickly.

           8           Once the car had stopped he shouted "Doors", his two

           9       colleagues then deployed from the passenger side of the

          10       vehicle.  He then left the car from his side (22/10,

          11       page 50), he looked up saw a male coming away from the

          12       passenger side of the minicab (page 51) and he saw W70

          13       and V53 moving towards him on the pavement (page 52).

          14           When he first saw Mr Duggan he said that Mark Duggan

          15       had both feet on the footway and he was some way going

          16       back outside that on box B on his plan, which is CE264,

          17       which we were shown.

          18           He was the one who said that Mark Duggan had

          19       a lolloping run.  He had a closed mouth grin (page 59)

          20       and when Mark Duggan got out of the cab he did not turn

          21       to face the bonnet of the minicab or towards where W42

          22       was, but lolloped and ran towards the back.  He, R68,

          23       said he could not see Mr Duggan's hands.  Mr Duggan had

          24       his right hand across his body inside his jacket,

          25       towards the left-hand side of his waistband.  His left


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           1       hand was down by his side.  If Mr Duggan was pulling the

           2       bottom left part of his jacket up to the right he would

           3       have seen that but he did not.

           4           Mr Duggan appeared to be trying to pull something

           5       out of the waistband of his trousers, he thought, but

           6       obviously, he said, he did not have a good view.  He

           7       said his left hand had moved up to hold his jacket and

           8       his right had been over the left-hand side of his body.

           9           It was put to him "Could Mr Duggan have been putting

          10       a mobile phone into his pocket?"  He said that that

          11       could have been the case, but as far as R68 said, he

          12       said that it did not strike R68 that there was a threat

          13       at that time.  He was not in front of Mr Duggan

          14       (page 56), R68 then said he looked towards the driver

          15       (page 110).  A couple of seconds later he heard shouts

          16       from the pavement, he did not remember what, and heard

          17       two shots with a gap between them (22/10, page 56).

          18           The next time he saw Mr Duggan he appeared to be

          19       doubled over, as if winded.  He was somewhere in the

          20       box, as we know, marked B on the plans that we have and

          21       he did not personally feel threatened by anything that

          22       he saw (22/10, page 112).

          23                          W39's Account

          24           The next account that we heard was W39, the rear

          25       passenger in the Bravo vehicle.  He was armed with


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           1       a Glock, MP5 and had access to a Hatton gun.  W39 said

           2       that when state red was called Alpha went to pull in

           3       front of the minicab but it was not yielding.  The

           4       driver of the Alpha pulled in two or three times to

           5       pinch it to a stop.  As it was not yielding the first or

           6       second time he heard sirens going off, he heard at least

           7       two sets of sirens because they were overlapping and he

           8       thought that his car, Bravo, might have used its siren.

           9           W39 could not see into the minicab when the stop

          10       went in.  It was slightly higher and had darker windows.

          11       R31 said that he thought the occupant in the back was

          12       going to leg it (22/10, page 117).

          13           W39 said that as they came to a stop he got out of

          14       the rear of the Bravo on the offside.  He went round to

          15       the back of the Bravo and he went between the Charlie

          16       car and the taxi and saw Mr Duggan going across his line

          17       of sight.  As he was in that area, between those two, he

          18       said he did not see R31 or Q63 there but Mr Duggan was

          19       between sprinting and walking.

          20           W39 then saw a muzzle flash (page 118).  Mr Duggan

          21       had gone past the back of the minicab by this time

          22       (page 142) and he was upright (page 146).

          23           He could see Mr Duggan's left arm but not his hand.

          24       W39 only saw him for one or two seconds.  W39 could not

          25       see any of his right side and could not recall him for


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           1       one or two seconds -- sorry, W39 could not recall

           2       anything unusual in the way that he, Mr Duggan, wore his

           3       jacket (page 119).  His body was obscuring his right

           4       arm.  He, W39, did not see a firearm on Mr Duggan at any

           5       point.  He heard lots of shouting, he cannot say what

           6       was shouted but he said what he would have heard on

           7       a standard vehicle stop and he would have remembered if

           8       he had heard anything out of the ordinary.

           9           Mr Duggan crouched forward as if winded.  After the

          10       shots were fired, his elbows were bent and his hands

          11       were brought up to his chest and he gave that impression

          12       of being crouched over in that way.

          13           There was not a period after each shot where there

          14       was a significant different movement, he said

          15       (page 122).  He did not recall any deflection like

          16       a flinch.  He saw Mr Duggan bend over and the two

          17       officers to his left starting to close him down.  W39

          18       did not recall how Mr Duggan got to the floor or when he

          19       got to the floor.  W39 had not reached the kerb when

          20       shots went off (22/10, page 124).

          21                          Post-Incident

          22           Now, what I am now going to do is to look at the

          23       other CO19 accounts, which have not come from those.

          24       Those are the ones we have now heard that are those

          25       pouring out of the car and very close to the shooting


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           1       itself.

           2           There was some talk about how these accounts, which

           3       we have now got in this little file, were put before you

           4       during the hearing and that's why you have the advantage

           5       of seeing, in each case, as far as were put before you

           6       in the hearing, the initial statement made by the

           7       witnesses that I have just been mentioning and the core

           8       of their witness statement made on 7 August 2011.  So

           9       that you can compare that and compare them for your

          10       assistance.

          11           So we must look a little bit at the reliability of

          12       the CO19 accounts.  We are just looking to see what the

          13       position is, how this was recorded, whether you get the

          14       impression that this is a satisfactory way of getting

          15       evidence or unsatisfactory way of getting evidence.  It

          16       is something which you are going to have to put into the

          17       balance when you come to consider what weight or

          18       reliability to put on their accounts.

          19                          V53's Account

          20           Well, V53 said -- this is surrounding the incident

          21       now -- that he knew that Mr Duggan had not fired and

          22       that only two rounds had been discharged and he knew

          23       that when he heard W42 say "I'm hit" (15/10, page 57).

          24       In his initial account to Inspector Elliott, which you

          25       have, V53 said "several shots" because he had just been


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           1       involved in a traumatic incident and did not want to tie

           2       himself down to say two when he may have actually fired

           3       more.

           4           He said "I was not 100 per cent sure I fired two at

           5       that time".  The account is normally given by somebody

           6       other than the principal officers, we heard, but he

           7       wanted to help the investigation at the earliest

           8       opportunity (15/10, page 72).  He said he was 99

           9       per cent sure that he had fired two shots but just

          10       wanted to have a bit of thinking time and that applies

          11       also to his notebook entry.

          12           In his notebook, V53 said that he "honestly

          13       believed", and used those words because he wanted to be

          14       overemphasising his belief and his honesty and the

          15       genuine nature of his belief at that time.

          16                         ACPO Guidelines

          17           We had quite a lot of debate within that hearing

          18       about the ACPO guidelines.  You actually have those in

          19       your bundle at C18 but, in short, those state that each

          20       officer's initial account should only consist of their

          21       individual recollection of events and should among other

          22       things address the question of what they believe the

          23       facts and why, if relevant, they considered that the use

          24       of force and discharge of firearms was absolutely

          25       necessary.


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           1           It says that within those guidelines detailed

           2       accounts should not normally be made immediately but can

           3       be left until the officers involved in the shooting are

           4       better able to articulate their experience in a coherent

           5       format, normally after at least 48 hours.

           6           Mr Dobinson, who was the trainer, you remember, said

           7       that nobody is explicitly taught to write anything in

           8       particular.  They have a duty to provide an accurate

           9       recollection after the events (6/11, page 163).

          10                         CO19's Accounts

          11           The CO19 officers wrote their detailed statements on

          12       7 August in the ARV briefing room at Leman Street.  This

          13       seemed to have taken place (8/10, page 151, and indeed

          14       other dates).

          15           V59 said that, although they wrote their accounts in

          16       the same room, they wrote them separately.  They wrote

          17       them in segments.  As they finished their section they

          18       threaten left the room.  When everybody finished their

          19       section they came back into the room, went through the

          20       flip chart process and wrote the next section.  Each

          21       section took as long as the longest person took.  The

          22       officers would discuss basic facts which were then

          23       written onto the flip charts.  Officers would then use

          24       that to ensure that they got those facts right but then

          25       write their own evidence as there was no more


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           1       discussion.  There was no discussion of Mr Duggan

           2       getting out of the minicab and the shooting.

           3           You are going to have to think about this, members

           4       of the jury.  You are not being asked to answer any

           5       question about whether this is a satisfactory, good or

           6       excellent way of writing statements or whether you would

           7       be more impressed if individual officers wrote their

           8       individual accounts as soon as they were able to do so

           9       when their memories were as fresh as practicable.

          10           But at the same time what you are being asked is to

          11       bear all of this in mind because we are now hearing

          12       accounts which are now over two years since the

          13       incident.  We have their initial accounts very shortly

          14       after that incident, the same evening, but as we all

          15       know from what we've seen, they really do not go into

          16       much detail at all.

          17           Then one has the position whereby two to three days

          18       later they are all in a big room with a flip charts

          19       getting their accounts, not to match, but certainly so

          20       that they have the basic facts put up there, for example

          21       as to whether it was a gold, bronze or silver minicab

          22       and all those various other matters that we know about,

          23       but also then give their accounts.

          24           That is, in fairness to them, why you have those

          25       accounts that I have put in there, because you will see


                                            17
 

 

 


           1       that they are not word for word the same, there are

           2       differences.  As we know, only two of the CO19 officers

           3       talk about seeing a gun, that's V53 and W70, and all the

           4       others say that they did not, and things of that nature.

           5       You will want to bear all of this in mind as to what

           6       weight you can put on their accounts.

           7           V59 said, in relation to his earlier account, that

           8       he did not record anything about the gun because of the

           9       ACPO Manual of Guidance.  They say that that should only

          10       be a brief account.  Although he put two shots had been

          11       fired, he did put the words "a number of shots" in the

          12       notebook.

          13           We heard that Q63 said yes there is no doubt in my

          14       mind now that there were two shots.  At the time I heard

          15       a number of shots, he said (10/10, page 5).  After

          16       making an initial statement he refreshed his memory

          17       between making the initial account and his fuller

          18       account and then realised it was two shots.  At the time

          19       he wrote his notebook he believed there were at least

          20       two shots but when he made his account he was certainly

          21       there were only two shots.  We saw his original notebook

          22       and he was the one that wrote down "2S" and then crossed

          23       it out and put "a number of shots".  He said that when

          24       he wrote his notebook he believed that he heard a number

          25       of shots and believed it may have been two (10/10,


                                            18
 

 

 


           1       page 11).

           2           He did not want to write something he was not

           3       100 per cent sure of, he said.  When asked about why the

           4       number of shots became more specific he said to the IPCC

           5       in his statement:

           6           "Following the incident, I made initial notes these

           7       notes are very brief in detail but confirm my presence

           8       and my role.  After a rest period I returned to work and

           9       produced a full detailed statement."

          10           He, Q63, said there was no discussion amongst the

          11       officers and none of them would say there were two shots

          12       in the initial accounts but later agreed there were two

          13       shots.

          14           When CO19 left the scene there was no discussion

          15       about how the gun got over the fence and he said again,

          16       Q63, when he made his notes that other CO19 officers

          17       were there, save for V53.

          18           So one of the problems, as we can see, and we will

          19       look at this shortly, is that, because none of the

          20       officers were saying in their initial accounts "Yes,

          21       definitely two shots", that gave some fuel to the

          22       misinformation that then came out into the public domain

          23       by the media release, which at the highest is or was

          24       an unfortunate aspect of this story.

          25           R31 gave accounts about what he had said earlier.


                                            19
 

 

 


           1       He said "I wrote in the notebook that I saw Mr Duggan go

           2       to the ground" but that was as far as he went in his

           3       initial account.  He said that he recorded two bangs, if

           4       it turned out there were more shots, then that would

           5       have been wrong.  He wrote two shots in his statement

           6       because he actually knew that to be definitely the case

           7       then.  He did not know who told him, he did not discuss

           8       this with anyone, he knew one person had fired as there

           9       was only one principal officer, ie V53, so he knew one

          10       person had fired two shots.

          11           At the time he wrote his initial shot he did not

          12       know how many people had fired.  When R31 made his

          13       notebook V53 was not there and when asked by the IPCC at

          14       the time he said "I initially believed I had heard two

          15       shots fired but I was unsure, there may have been two or

          16       more officers firing simultaneously".

          17           He said in his notebook, R31, that he was in full

          18       uniform but what he meant was that he wearing a police

          19       issue plain clothes jacket.  He was not sure from his

          20       firearms log whether he had a Taser but he said that he

          21       did have a Taser in his notebook.

          22           So V53, again, said that he had not spoken to other

          23       officers and team members before he had made his initial

          24       account but he wanted just to use the word "several

          25       shots" because that is what you should do unless you are


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       100 per cent sure.

           2           W42 had met other TST officers when he made his

           3       note.  He noted bronze, he noted that he thought two

           4       shots but was told not to put two.  He did not put two

           5       in because he thought that could be wrong.

           6           W56 decided of his own accord to take some

           7       photographs of the scene and thought that would help.

           8           W70 went back to Leman Street with other officers.

           9       He said that he did not talk to anyone in the TST about

          10       the incident that evening.  They take the conferring

          11       guidelines very seriously.  They talked about their

          12       welfare and general chit chat, there was no discussion

          13       around the actual stop itself, and he said he was told

          14       by his legal advisor, Mr Scott Ingram, not to go into

          15       any detail in the initial account.  Indeed, what in fact

          16       happened at the end of that, he, W70, agreed to waive

          17       his legal privilege, as we know, and he then gave his

          18       account, and we have that from his solicitors, which we

          19       actually have in our jury bundle at C17, whereby he, to

          20       his legal advisor says:

          21           "I saw target produce gun-shaped object.  Heard two

          22       shots."

          23           But, as we know, that was not the definitive way

          24       that his notebook was then made up after the event when

          25       he said "I heard a number of rounds" (23/10, page 30).


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       He said there was no advice whilst writing their notes,

           2       it's a matter for them, he said in cross-examination

           3       (page 114), but he did not know how many shots of count

           4       back of armament had been shown when he wrote his

           5       notebook.

           6           W42's initial account he was satisfied as to what he

           7       had written.

           8           R68 said he heard over the radio that the minicab

           9       was gold and that's why he put that in there.  He

          10       believed he discovered that W42 had been shot when he

          11       went back to the police station.  The reason why he

          12       wrote the word "shots" rather than "two" was not because

          13       he did not know what V53 was going to say and he was not

          14       leaving things open just to cover for him.

          15           W39 did not put "two shots" in the notebook since

          16       their training recommends that if there's more than one

          17       shot then they should write down "a number of shots" so

          18       he and they could fully reflect on what happened some

          19       days after the event.

          20                     Post-Incident Management

          21           Going on about the other matters that arose at this

          22       point, we heard about the post-incident management

          23       system.  We heard from Mr Neil Evans, he was the

          24       Post-Incident Manager on 4 August.  His role was to

          25       manage the procedures for the police after such


                                            22
 

 

 


           1       an incident (29/10, page 144).

           2           He said the aim of the post-incident procedure was

           3       to ensure the welfare of officers and to gather best

           4       evidence.  He followed the ACPO manual (page 146), he

           5       said he would never give advice as a Post-Incident

           6       Manager about initial accounts and what should be said,

           7       because that would have been itself subject to legal

           8       advice.  He is not aware of any training for firearms

           9       officers not to put their full facts in their initial

          10       accounts.  If officers conferred when making their

          11       initial account they should have noted that in their

          12       notebook.  He said he himself was not in the room when

          13       they made their notebooks, they had their Sergeant

          14       there, their legal rep and a member of the Police

          15       Federation (29/10, page 180).

          16           We had a witness, Mr Gary Rennles, driving officers

          17       back to Leman Street and he said that there was no

          18       discussion about the incident when he did that.

          19                   Accounts from Other Officers

          20           Well, there were accounts from other officers.  So

          21       let me put that as our next little heading, the other

          22       officers' accounts, which include ZZ17.

          23           ZZ17 said of the shooting himself:

          24           "I was sitting in the Land Rover Discovery, rear

          25       nearside (30/9, page 28) when the stop went in."


                                            23
 

 

 


           1           He said that he was distracted by a lady on a bike.

           2       He could not describe the stop in detail, he had the

           3       impression of Mr Duggan rushing out of the back

           4       passenger side of the taxi in his direction (30/9,

           5       page 28).  He had then the impression of CO19 officers

           6       swarming around and he heard shouting from CO19 officers

           7       along the lines "Stop, armed police" (page 31).

           8           He said that they blocked his view because he was

           9       still seated in the Land Rover Discovery and when a few

          10       feet away from Mr Duggan he then heard two or three

          11       shots immediately after each other (30/9, page 30).

          12           ZZ63 said he did not see the hard stop.  When they

          13       stopped the vehicle that he was in, he was 30 or

          14       40 yards from the stop.  He got out and heard two bangs

          15       but was not able to help us about anything else.

          16           ZZ75, a silver vehicle pulled in front of the

          17       minicab which stopped, other vehicles pulled in next and

          18       around it, as we know.  All he said is he just saw armed

          19       officers getting out of the vehicles and running towards

          20       the pavement, but he did not see anything more to help

          21       us (3/10, page 139).

          22           B22 had a white VW van that went past the Ferry Lane

          23       bus, that we know.  He saw the firearms teams getting

          24       out of their vehicles and as he went past he thought he

          25       heard one or possibly two gunshots, but he continued


                                            24
 

 

 


           1       past to put a cordon on the other side of Ferry Lane.

           2       He heard shouting "Armed police".  He did not see

           3       Mr Duggan, he saw officers wearing caps identifying

           4       themselves as armed police.

           5           He said there was quite a lot of noise as the

           6       officers got out of their vehicles.  He was probably

           7       alongside when the first shot was fired but the windows

           8       of the van in which he was in were up.

           9           ZZ37 said he saw the stop from about 40, 50 metres

          10       behind (3/10, page 9).  He did not see much but heard

          11       lots of shouting he heard "Police, police, armed

          12       police".  He could not pick up everything that was said.

          13       He then said "I heard a couple of shots, I did not see

          14       Mr Duggan at the time of the stop".  He did not mention

          15       the shooting at all in his statement and he said he is

          16       not the person giving any warnings.

          17           Z51 said he had quite a good view of the stop.  It

          18       was exactly the training that he would expect to happen.

          19       He saw CO19 officers on the pavement before Mr Duggan

          20       got out.  He saw Mr Duggan move within the cab, he could

          21       see head and shoulders when he got out of the taxi

          22       (2/10, page 86).

          23           Z51 saw Mr Duggan very quickly going to his left,

          24       coming out of the taxi.  He momentarily looked right

          25       then looked left.  Z51 could see just the top of his


                                            25
 

 

 


           1       head.  He said "Very quickly Mr Duggan was surrounded by

           2       six or seven CO19 officers, he had not moved more than

           3       two metres".  Z51 saw officers out of their vehicle.  He

           4       guessed that it would be the two in the Charlie car as

           5       Mr Duggan came out of the taxi.  He thought they got to

           6       about a metre and a half of each other.  That was his

           7       account.

           8           He stayed in the vehicle because he is not an armed

           9       officer himself and they are told to stay until called

          10       forward by CO19.

          11           Z51 heard commands that he would expect to hear from

          12       armed interception and Z51 saw officers very quickly

          13       giving Mr Duggan first aid.

          14           Indeed in his full statement, which is almost the

          15       last document you have in this little bundle I gave you,

          16       all he was saying there in his detailed statement was:

          17           "The taxi stopped.  I noticed CO19 armed officers

          18       running towards the taxi.  I stayed in the control

          19       vehicle with ZZ17.  I then saw Mark Duggan exit the rear

          20       nearside and run towards the armed officers who were

          21       running towards the rear of the taxi.  My vision was

          22       obstructed by armed officers.  I then heard a number of

          23       shots and noticed Mark Duggan fall to the ground."

          24           So that was his.

          25           Finally, in other accounts of officers was ZZ46.


                                            26
 

 

 


           1       ZZ46 saw the firearms team get out of their vehicles,

           2       they ran towards the pavement, the control vehicle

           3       blocked her view.  She said she remained in her vehicle

           4       and she heard what she believed to be a number of

           5       gunshots, didn't get out until one of the firearms

           6       officers came towards her asking her to call

           7       an ambulance because an officer had been shot.  She did

           8       not see Mr Duggan at all (1/10, page 141).

           9                    Civilian Witness Accounts

          10           So what I am now going to move on to, my next little

          11       heading, the accounts of the civilians around this time

          12       and what you learn from that.

          13                         The Taxi Driver

          14           The first civilian, obviously, is the taxi driver.

          15       The taxi driver told us how he was boxed in.  He saw

          16       a lot of people getting out of cars.

          17           He said that he didn't hear anything, he said that

          18       if they did shout, he did not hear anything (14/10,

          19       page 13).  The taxi driver did not hear the word

          20       "Police", something like "Hold" might have been shouted

          21       (page 34).  He understands the word "police" but he said

          22       the best he heard might have been the word "Hold" or

          23       "Stop" or "Don't move".  He agreed that if someone had

          24       said "Armed Police" then they might have done but he

          25       himself did not hear it.


                                            27
 

 

 


           1           He said that, as far as he was concerned, he did not

           2       see officers wearing caps with police chequered bands

           3       on.  He heard the back door open of his taxi and saw

           4       Mr Duggan get out of the car and run away.

           5           You will remember from your views of that taxi that

           6       someone sitting in the driver's seat, turning around,

           7       would have a very good view of exactly what was

           8       happening behind him in the open door and being able to

           9       see Mr Duggan, and that's what the taxi driver was

          10       telling you when he was giving his evidence.

          11           The taxi driver said this, that he saw Mr Duggan get

          12       out of the car and run away.  He said he had his jacket

          13       on.  The taxi driver said that he did not see anything

          14       in Mr Duggan's hands when he was getting out of the

          15       minicab (14/10, page 14).  When Mr Duggan opened the

          16       door of the minicab, the minicab was stationary.

          17           Mr Duggan ran to the rear of the car, he did not see

          18       him go forward at all.  The taxi driver saw the officers

          19       come from the rear.  He saw the officers fire at

          20       someone, he said, and heard some noise, and then looked

          21       round again and they were firing at that man and saw he

          22       had been shot in the back, he said.

          23           An officer from the car in front of him fired.  He

          24       saw the shot hit because some cotton came out of

          25       Mr Duggan's jacket (page 16).  He looked at the officer


                                            28
 

 

 


           1       and then looked back, two or three holes appear in the

           2       jacket and something white came out of the jacket.  He

           3       did not see a gun going through the air from Mr Duggan.

           4       Mr Duggan was only about two or three feet from the

           5       minicab, or two or three steps when he fell (14/10,

           6       page 18-19, page 32).

           7           He said Mr Duggan fell on the floor suddenly.  The

           8       taxi driver saw him fall forwards onto the floor.  The

           9       taxi driver did not see Mr Duggan holding a gun.  He did

          10       not see Mr Duggan raise his arm either.  He said that if

          11       that had happened he could have seen it, if Mr Duggan

          12       had done it.  When Mr Duggan ran to the rear of the

          13       minicab, the taxi driver could not see his hands.

          14                              Miss Z

          15           Then we have Miss Z, who was on the pavement in

          16       Ferry Lane Estate looking up, as we know, towards Ferry

          17       Lane.  She is in and about the Jarrow Road area (25/11,

          18       page 18).

          19           She told us she was the top right corner of

          20       photograph 19B that we have in our bundles.  She saw

          21       a figure with two policemen beside him.  The policeman

          22       in front put his left arm out but did not touch the man.

          23       The other officer was to Mr Duggan's left.  She did not

          24       see anything in the officer's hands.  The man had his

          25       back to her.  Something was said or shouted, she said,


                                            29
 

 

 


           1       but she didn't know what and by whom.  She didn't see

           2       the man make a sudden movement, he did not twist or turn

           3       or go forward or backward, he was just there (25/11,

           4       page 24).

           5           There was a bang and then she saw the policeman

           6       giving a man first aid.  Both police officers were white

           7       but Mark Duggan was white.  She did not see the skin on

           8       the hand or arm of the officer.

           9                        Valentine McGuire

          10           The other person there was Valentine McGuire (25/11,

          11       page 42).  He was walking home, heard two gunshots

          12       (page 40) and did not hear any shouting before the

          13       shots.  He could not help us anymore.

          14                           Darren Biggs

          15           Darren Biggs was on the pavement on the Tesco side

          16       of Ferry Lane.  He was the one who heard sirens and cars

          17       pulling up.  He did not take that much notice of it at

          18       first, he told us.  He was just past the bus stop

          19       opposite and heard a commotion behind him.  He turned

          20       round and he's shown turning his head on those three

          21       stills which are timed as 18.12.46-18.12.47 seconds.

          22       That looks as though that is the real time conversion.

          23       (25/11, page 74).

          24           He said he heard one crack (page 75) and in his

          25       statement he said, yes, he heard one crack immediately


                                            30
 

 

 


           1       followed by another.  He could not say whether there was

           2       any shouting (page 76).

           3                         Emil Drzewiecki

           4           Another witness, Emil Drzewiecki, thought the

           5       evidence occurred 5 o'clock that afternoon.  He was at

           6       the bus stop on Ferry Lane and heard three gunshots and

           7       a lot of commotion.  He had his back to the incident

           8       (25/11, page 104-105).

           9                         Finbar Hanrahan

          10           Then we had Finbar Hanrahan, he was in Erskine

          11       Crescent, heard three shots (25/11, page 116) fired in

          12       quick succession.  He walked across the green and got

          13       three feet from the railings.  Mr Duggan was on the edge

          14       of the pavement by the minicab, parallel to the

          15       pavement.

          16           He marked where he was standing on his plan, which

          17       we have, CE315.  He marked on the stills from the BBC

          18       footage, or pointed out, where he had been and told us

          19       it had taken 20 to 30 seconds to get there.  He did not

          20       see a gun on the grass, he did not see any of the

          21       officers holding weapons.  He said that he was only

          22       there for three or four seconds and turned around and

          23       went back.

          24           There were other accounts from other civilians.  But

          25       perhaps it is right for me to go to Miss J now and


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       Mr Noble-Thompson.

           2                              Miss J

           3           Miss J, as I have already referred to her, and of

           4       course, Miss J's daughter.  Miss J was giving this

           5       account that, from her Jarrow Road area, she was on the

           6       railings by the green, told to go back by an officer,

           7       went back over Jarrow Road, another commotion, ran up

           8       and saw the police officer pull Mr Duggan out of the car

           9       from the back left-hand side.  She said they put him on

          10       the floor and performed CPR.  She thought it was about

          11       five minutes after she heard the noise.

          12           She said she struggled to remember things.  She gave

          13       evidence over the video link, you will remember, and

          14       much of her statement that she made earlier on was put

          15       to her and she said (16/10, page 113) in particular

          16       onwards of this cross-examination that she should not

          17       describe an officer that entered the taxi, she said that

          18       she thought one had.  She could not say whether they

          19       were armed or one of the normal police officers.  She

          20       just has a memory of an officer being in the taxi via

          21       the right-hand door at the back on the driver's side at

          22       approximately 6.28, she said.

          23           She did not know if the officer was male or female

          24       whether they had opened the door or not, she didn't know

          25       what they had done in the taxi.  She said that she saw


                                            32
 

 

 


           1       an officer running off with a gun.  She saw the handgun

           2       officer running off, he was tall and 5'10, he had

           3       a black belt on, she thought he was wearing a white

           4       shirt.

           5           The officer was carrying a clear see-through

           6       forensic bag that was the size of two A4 papers but not

           7       put together.  She said there was a handgun in the bag,

           8       the handgun was modern, rectangular in shape, it was as

           9       long as the width of an A4 piece of paper.  She knew it

          10       was a handgun because she had seen them on telly and the

          11       officer was holding the gun flat on the palm of his hand

          12       she could see all of the gun, she could see the trigger,

          13       the mouth end of the gun, the bit where the bullet comes

          14       out.  She said she saw the gun for two or three seconds

          15       before a handgun officer put a black cloth over the gun

          16       as he continued to run towards Tottenham Hale station.

          17           She marked this point K on the sketch.  The black

          18       cloth looked like a towel-like material that did not

          19       cover the whole bag, she could still see the clear bag

          20       once the cloth was over it, and the officer seemed like

          21       he was concerned with covering the gun, not necessarily

          22       the bag.

          23           Miss J was asked about the person with the white

          24       arrow on the BBC footage.  She said, no, he is not the

          25       same person who she saw with the gun.  But she did


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       continue to say (16/10, page 123-124):

           2           "I cannot say.  As I keep stating, I remember

           3       somebody coming out of the car.  They had a handgun but

           4       I cannot remember.  I saw a gun, I am not a mad woman."

           5           She had her daughter next to her who also saw the

           6       gun and she said that there was no doubt in her mind

           7       about it.

           8           She was cross-examined for quite some length:

           9           "I have also recalled that, as far as I can recall,

          10       one therefore was a marked police car.  I am less sure

          11       about it now."

          12           She did not remember saying that she said "I saw

          13       a person lying on the pavement close to the railings"

          14       but she said "I know what CPR is because I trained for

          15       it in my work".  She concluded (page 163):

          16           "There is no way you can be mistaken seeing a gun in

          17       Tottenham in broad daylight."

          18                      Richard Noble-Thompson

          19           Then we had Mr Richard Noble-Thompson (30/10,

          20       page 106).  He, of course, is the one who produced these

          21       photographs that we now have which are quite useful and

          22       clear.  He said that he did not see anything of the stop

          23       but he was on the green by Jarrow Road and he did not

          24       see a gun on the ground or anybody picking up or

          25       carrying a gun, apart from the weapons that the police


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       had on them, but he saw a police car turn round from the

           2       task lights on Ferry Lane and move down Jarrow Road.

           3           You may think that this is the ARV team coming down

           4       to Jarrow Road that you saw on the films.

           5           The police car drove at him at high speed.  He had

           6       to jump onto the pavement out of the way.  He thought

           7       this may be because he was about to start filming,

           8       possible interpretation that the car wanted to stop as

           9       quickly as possible.

          10           He said the officer that got out of the police car

          11       walked up the green, up towards Ferry Lane.

          12       Mr Noble-Thompson believed that the photograph was one

          13       of the first ones that he took from the path at Ferry

          14       Lane, taken after a few seconds.  He jumped onto the

          15       pavement to get out of the way from the car.  He said he

          16       took the picture specifically because he was focusing on

          17       what was happening.

          18           He said that he saw the man we know as Z51 on the

          19       left of there talking to someone on the railings.

          20       (indicates).  Now we have a photograph with the blobs

          21       removed from the faces it has been agreed the other

          22       person the other side of the railing is W39 and

          23       Mr Noble-Thompson said that, at that stage, R31 is off

          24       to the left of that photograph.

          25           He said that he took the picture because he was


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       focusing on what was happening.  He said that Z51 had

           2       come around the corner and was eyeballing with the other

           3       man and then pointed down and asked the other man "Is it

           4       here?"  Then Z51 turned round and went back.  He did not

           5       see anything in Z51's hands.  They were not talking but

           6       communicating non-verbally he said, looking at each

           7       other, as he said he believes you can see on the

           8       photograph.

           9           He thought that Z51 was being directed by the man on

          10       the other side of the railings.  They seemed to be

          11       together, pointing out something on the ground, deciding

          12       where or what.  They were five or ten metres apart.  It

          13       seemed to be a question rather than "Look at this".

          14           R31 was over on the left of the photograph to begin

          15       with, after Z51 came in he was still to the left.  After

          16       Z51 spoke to the man on Ferry Lane he looked over at R31

          17       and told him to go over.  The non-verbal communication

          18       was not with R31.  At that stage he said he was off to

          19       the left of the photograph.  He did not believe that R31

          20       had anything in his hands but cannot remember.  It was

          21       not in the statement because it was not something that

          22       he was questioned about at the time.

          23           Obviously, Mr Noble-Thompson did not know the call

          24       signs of the officers, I have just put those in because

          25       he is talking about the officer who was on the left of


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       the railings and I have called him R31.

           2                            Witness B

           3           So other accounts of civilians of importance, it

           4       would be right for me to bring in at this stage the

           5       account that you heard from Witness B, because he came

           6       late on in the hearing, for reasons that then became

           7       apparent to you.

           8           Witness B told you that he lived on the 9th floor of

           9       Emily Bows Court, which is the name of that block of

          10       flats and such like on the north side of Ferry Lane

          11       above the Tesco supermarket.  He said that the flat in

          12       which he was on the 9th floor overlooked Ferry Lane.  He

          13       was living there with Witness A, who you heard from as

          14       well, and he was aware of shouting and screeching from

          15       at least four people, either saying "Put it down" or

          16       "Get down".

          17           He was three or four feet from the window.  The

          18       window was open.  He went to his window, he stuck the

          19       top half of his body out of the window and then started

          20       seeing everything, is what he told us (3/12, page 30).

          21           He was about 150 metres from the incident.  He saw

          22       the people carrier, which was blocked in by a BMW and

          23       a white Vauxhall Insignia.  There was a Land Rover about

          24       ten steps back at the back.  He saw policemen, he said

          25       that they were policemen because they all had blue


                                            37
 

 

 


           1       jackets on and some of them had firearms.

           2           He also saw a man who he now knows to be Mark

           3       Duggan.  He could see the upper part of Mr Duggan's

           4       body, his lower body was blocked by the people carrier.

           5       He said there was an officer right in front of the

           6       Insignia on the other side (page 21), there was another

           7       officer in between the Land Rover and the people

           8       carrier.

           9           He said that when Mr Duggan jumped out of the

          10       minicab he was facing at an angle, facing between the

          11       Blackhorse Road and Ferry Lane.  He turned to run

          12       towards Tottenham Hale station (page 89) and Mr Duggan

          13       had his light summer jacket on.  He cannot remember the

          14       way it was being worn at that time.

          15           His evidence continued: Mr Duggan seemed to him to

          16       see the officer on the pavement in front of him as he

          17       tried to run towards Tottenham Hale and so, as there was

          18       a police officer standing there, Mr Duggan then turned

          19       round to run off back towards Blackhorse Road (page 22).

          20           He, Mr Duggan, ran towards the back of the minicab

          21       and then stopped.  It appeared from what he, Witness B,

          22       could see, that Mr Duggan looked baffled.  His body

          23       language was like "What's going on?"

          24           Witness B said Mr Duggan's hands popped up, he gave

          25       an expression about and imitated that and had his hands


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       down like this (indicates) and we asked him why that was

           2       and he told us.  He said he was popped up at that point.

           3       Witness B said that he had a clear view of him,

           4       Mr Duggan had a phone clutched his hands.  His hands

           5       were both up above the shoulders near his face, his

           6       biceps were by his side and all this was described

           7       (page 38).

           8           His left hand was open, facing forwards, his right

           9       hand was curled around the phone.  It was small phone.

          10       It was definitely a phone, it was not a gun.  It was not

          11       the size of the Bruni, that was put to him later, he was

          12       not aiming at anyone and didn't appear to be in

          13       an aggressive pose.

          14           He agreed that it looked like Mr Duggan was

          15       surrendering when it was put by Mr Thomas to him.  He

          16       said he did not see any reason for Mr Duggan to be shot

          17       at all (page 61).

          18           He said there was lots of shouting of "Get down, get

          19       down", Mr Duggan was then shot twice.  Mr Duggan

          20       collapsed.  Mr Duggan was then by the side of the

          21       minicab but more towards its back than its front.

          22       Mr Duggan was directly facing the officer who shot him

          23       (page 95).  He did not see Mr Duggan crouching at

          24       an angle when he was shot (page 106).  He did not see

          25       the jacket pulled up over his right side (page 107).  He


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       was nearer the cab than the railings (page 97).  The

           2       officer who shot him was about five to seven steps away.

           3           When Mr Duggan collapsed he was still clutching his

           4       phone.  When he collapsed, the minicab was blocking his

           5       view.  At no point did Mr Duggan throw the object.  The

           6       moment Mr Duggan was shot he went inside to get his

           7       phone which took two or three seconds and started

           8       recording.

           9           Then that is the phone recording on the BlackBerry

          10       that you have and have seen on a number of occasions.

          11       That has a transcript to it, which you have.  It says in

          12       that transcript, he does say, and I quote:

          13           "What I'm surprised about why didn't they cuff him,

          14       that other dude?"

          15           He said that was the officer who blocked Mr Duggan

          16       from moving towards Tottenham Hale after he got shot.

          17       He thought it must be his mate due to the way the police

          18       grabbed him and put him in the car.

          19           The entry into the transcript says "He jumped out".

          20       Witness B said he had taken out something because he

          21       heard the police officer shouting at him "Put it

          22       down/get down".  He assumed he had taken something out

          23       because the police officer was shouting at him "Get

          24       down" or "Put it down" but he did not see Mr Duggan take

          25       anything out.


                                            40
 

 

 


           1           He said the entry should read "He jumped up and

           2       tried to run" but he was not taking anything out because

           3       he heard them shout "Put it down, put it down".

           4           Those words could have been "Put it down" and it

           5       could have been "Get down", you remember the

           6       cross-examination about that.  You have probably been

           7       reminded about what I've said all the police officers

           8       heard being shouted by everybody.  No police officer

           9       hears anyone say "Put it down", they all hear shouting

          10       of "Armed police".  Whether there is anything in that at

          11       all is entirely a matter for you.

          12           It was Witness B's initial thought from the onset

          13       that it was a phone clutched in his hands and when he

          14       then read the papers and media after the event he said,

          15       well, that just proved he was right.

          16           The BBC notes say Witness B said "Put it down", the

          17       notes the BBC have, and it was on the notes that was put

          18       to him.

          19           In the interview of 25 November that was conducted

          20       by the team for me, Witness B did not say he saw

          21       Mr Duggan with a mobile phone when he ran towards

          22       Tottenham Hale.  You can see his full body between the

          23       cars when he ran to Blackhorse Road.  When he had his

          24       hands up then, then that was when he could see the phone

          25       (3/12, page 91).  He said the statement was rushed,


                                            41
 

 

 


           1       (page 94) and he did not consider the note of the

           2       interview from 25 November to be fully accurate.

           3           Witness B told Witness A that the words used were

           4       "Get down" as well as "Put it down".

           5           Witness B did not want to give evidence.  He just

           6       told you, members of the jury, that he just really

           7       wanted to be left alone.  But the shooting had played on

           8       his mind, the talk about gangs, which he didn't want to

           9       be bothered with, and Witness B told you that he does

          10       not trust the police (page 61) and the BBC notes say

          11       that Witness B said he was stopped and searched all the

          12       time, does not trust the police, but he told Witness A

          13       to contact the BBC.

          14           The BBC paid for the footage.  He was not looking to

          15       get paid himself, in as much as he had been paid for

          16       an account of evidence, and indeed he refused to meet

          17       with or cooperate with the police or the IPCC, as we

          18       know and it was only in April 2012 that he met the BBC.

          19                            Witness A

          20           Witness A herself gave evidence.  She had heard the

          21       screeching of the tyres, the shouting and the gunshots

          22       but was not able to get a view out of the window as

          23       Witness B was blocking her view.  So she was not really

          24       able to help us very much more.  She remembered

          25       Witness B saying to her the words "Put it down" on the


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       footage.

           2                            Witness C

           3           Witness C then was called, and you have already

           4       heard me saying about his evidence that it is not

           5       independent evidence of the incident, it's given to you

           6       to see whether there's consistency or inconsistency in

           7       what Witness B says, and also to test Witness B's

           8       evidence, in many ways, because it came out late in the

           9       Inquest hearing, it has not been able to be put fully to

          10       other witnesses, or indeed you might have said, well,

          11       perhaps we would like to go up to floor 9 and have

          12       a look out on the view, but that wasn't available to us

          13       because we had not heard from Witness B at that stage,

          14       at that time.

          15           So there are a number of ways there that one has to

          16       look very carefully at ways of testing Witness B's

          17       account, as I am sure you will as you consider his

          18       evidence.

          19           Witness C helped you because he said that he did

          20       have meetings with witnesses A and B in April.  He made

          21       notes, which you have, I believe, and if you haven't you

          22       should have, just we'll make sure you have.

          23           Witness C's first meeting with Witness B was on

          24       12 April.  Three BBC journalists were putting questions

          25       to them both and he said that Witness B said that he had


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       heard "Put it down", he had heard screeching of tyres,

           2       saw a Land Rover black car, thought it was MI5

           3       operation.  He put his head out of the window, started

           4       recording footage of what was happening.  He said that

           5       Witness B told him that he went to the window and starts

           6       recording for eight minutes or so of footage on the

           7       BlackBerry.  He described Mark Duggan's body language to

           8       him as a sort of "What's up?" sort of approach and

           9       Witness B described Mr Duggan as having his hands up

          10       with his arms raised and his fingers parallel to his

          11       shoulders.

          12           He said that was how that was directed to police.

          13       He said that Mr Duggan had a BlackBerry in his hand, and

          14       they drew a map and Witness B described the whole thing

          15       and we saw it in those notes:

          16           "It was an execution."

          17           They went through the sequence again and Witness B

          18       said screeching of tyres at the window, he started

          19       recording footage, shooting of the BlackBerry, ran to

          20       the kitchen to get a better view.  Mr Duggan said

          21       something along the lines of "What's going on?" to the

          22       police and Witness B again raised his hands up as he

          23       said that's how Mark Duggan had raised his hands towards

          24       the police.

          25           He said that Witness B said it was all over in


                                            44
 

 

 


           1       a split second, there was a fire, two shots and the

           2       phone went flying, that was what was put in the note.

           3           On 18 April he had a phone conversation with

           4       Witness A, that's Witness C having that, talking about

           5       the difficulties about giving evidence, he didn't want

           6       to do an interview, he didn't want to go to the police,

           7       and there was a second meeting on 24 April with

           8       Witness B and C and, again, with another colleague there

           9       were notes made after the meeting, because they weren't

          10       in very good surroundings for that meeting.

          11           Again, it was positive that Mr Duggan had

          12       a BlackBerry, Witness B was positive, it was shiny,

          13       Mr Duggan was in between the car and the railings on

          14       Ferry Lane, he was facing Blackhorse Road.  Mr Duggan

          15       said words to the effect or expression to the effect of

          16       "What's going on?"  On at least a couple of occasions

          17       Witness B had raised you his arms to imitate this to

          18       Witness C.

          19           Witness B said Mr Duggan appeared confused.  He said

          20       that the phone was in Mr Duggan's right hand and

          21       Witness C wrote "on the grass side", but cannot remember

          22       specifically about why that was put in that way.

          23           Witness C put an asterisk against "phone always in

          24       hand" to emphasise the point.  Witness C believes that,

          25       for a moment, Witness B may initially thought it was


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       a gun but then said it was shiny and because it was

           2       shiny insisted it was a BlackBerry.  The words read

           3       "newspapers, then thought it was BlackBerry".  He cannot

           4       be sure what happened, said Witness C, but he put

           5       an asterisk against "If he had the gun he would have

           6       aimed it at police officers".

           7           So Witness C did not say he made a record of the

           8       notes of Witness B putting his hands up, but he

           9       saw it.  Witness B was clear about the words "Put

          10       it down/get down".

          11           Witness C said that his colleagues raised going to

          12       the police very directly with Witness B.  He said he had

          13       no trust towards the police, Witness C believed that

          14       this was prior to the incident.  He would not go to the

          15       IPCC either.  Again, because he had no trust.  He said

          16       he was scared of the police and Witness C said he did

          17       not do any checks on Witness B, he did not go to the 9th

          18       floor himself to look out of the window.  He said some

          19       money was paid for the footage which was the camera

          20       footage, and then later some money for the BlackBerry

          21       footage and that was the sum total of his contact

          22       between Witness C and Witness B.

          23           So when you are gauging Witness B's evidence, of

          24       course you will remember that he was paid for his

          25       footage, although obviously not paid for any evidential


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       account, that he had a view from quite some distance, on

           2       his own account 150 metres across the road.  I know on

           3       the view we were looking up at those windows to see what

           4       we could see up there on the other side of the road, but

           5       the view is the other way round.

           6           We can remember there being quite some debate about

           7       whether you could see mobile phones.  I can remember

           8       Mr Butt cross-examining Clive Burchett, who created the

           9       footage, asking him to look very carefully at the

          10       footage to see if he could confirm that Z51 had a mobile

          11       phone in his hand while he was walking around at the

          12       scene.

          13           It's obviously very difficult to look at

          14       a BlackBerry footage, in the way that it's been

          15       centralised, it's rather jerky, and see whether that is

          16       in fact the real view that Witness B had.

          17           So there are a number of things that would cause you

          18       to look very carefully at Witness B's evidence before

          19       putting reliance on it.  But if you are careful with it,

          20       you could say to yourself, well, at least it is

          21       independent, he is not either on the side of the police

          22       or on the side of Mark Duggan at all.  He could be

          23       someone who may dislike the police but did not want to

          24       go to the police to give the account.  His reluctance to

          25       come forward may be something you can put in the favour


                                            47
 

 

 


           1       of his reliability in some ways, or it may be that the

           2       whole thing is so doubtful and untested in this way that

           3       you feel that you ought to be very careful about his

           4       evidence.

           5           As I say evidential matters are entirely for you.

           6       You saw Witness B.  You have to, I know, spend a lot of

           7       time with these witnesses, each time thinking "What do

           8       I really make of this person?  Is this person really

           9       coming along to help?  Are they trying to be full and

          10       frank?  Are the two years that have passed since the

          11       incident something that affects the quality of their

          12       evidence, the reliability, their accuracy?"  Or have

          13       there been witnesses before you who have not been

          14       telling you the truth.  All that happens in courts of

          15       law all the time and you, the jury, have the task of

          16       assessing witnesses and coming to your conclusions about

          17       them.

          18           Well, members of the jury, that brings me to a point

          19       really whereby I think that I will now be going onto

          20       other evidence.  The last part of my summing-up this

          21       morning, after our break that we will now have for ten

          22       minutes or quarter of an hour, will be about evidence

          23       concerning how the gun got to where it was and the

          24       evidence surrounding that and the successes and failings

          25       of the crime scene.


                                            48
 

 

 


           1           Then we will move seamlessly on and conclude the

           2       summing-up by looking at the expert evidence as to what

           3       that tells us, if anything, about anything.  We will go

           4       through that later on.

           5           What we will do now is have our ten minute/quarter

           6       of an hour break.

           9   (11.39 am)

          10                         (A short break)

          11   (12.03 pm)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We will have

          13       the cameras off then, please, and the jury in.

          14                  (In the presence of the jury)

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, now we are all settled.  What

          16       I am going to do is not quite as I had planned.  I am

          17       going to deal now with this heading, which is the crime

          18       scene management and any misinformation given to the

          19       media.

          20            Crime Scene Management and Misinformation

          21           Part of the evidence starts really with Patricia

          22       Larrigan who was the Crime Scene Manager Crime Scene

          23       Manager called by the Central Operations Office

          24       requesting photographic assistance only to an incident

          25       in Ferry Lane (4/11, page 3).


                                            49
 

 

 


           1           At 1845 she called Stuart Kennedy, the SCD Reserve,

           2       for more information.  Part of the briefing was:

           3           "Suspect shot at and hit by police (4/11, page 4)."

           4           As shootings are part of the CSM's remit she took it

           5       upon herself to take further steps.  Her briefing at

           6       18.55 by ZZ75 contradicted that Mr Duggan had fired

           7       shots and at 19.20 she was briefed by Detective

           8       Inspector Suggett, which included:

           9           "The suspect first fired at police, police returned

          10       fire."

          11           She arrived at 20.54 and was briefed by DCS Cundy.

          12       The briefing included:

          13           "It was not known if the suspects had fired any

          14       shots (4/11, page 13)."

          15           DI Suggett decided that there should be a Crime

          16       Scene Manager at that time (4/11, page 83).

          17           John Cockram was the Crime Scene Manager who took

          18       over from Ms Larrigan.  He was briefed by her when he

          19       arrived just after midnight on 4 into the 5 August

          20       (4/11, page 86).

          21           Ms Larrigan (sic) hypothesised that Mr Duggan had

          22       fired.  He believed throughout that the police may have

          23       thrown the gun over the fence, he told you (20/11,

          24       page 104) (sic).

          25           Mr Foote was called by his Detective Inspector, Z51,


                                            50
 

 

 


           1       he was mistaken about ZZ50 to be informed about the

           2       shooting.  He was told a stop had taken place, Mark

           3       Duggan had been shot and a gun was recovered, he was

           4       told (24/9, page 15).  He was also told that Mark Duggan

           5       had got out of the cab with a gun (page 18) and that

           6       an officer had been shot (page 22).

           7           He did not keep a record of what he was told because

           8       he did not feel it was necessary, as he was not at the

           9       scene and a number of officers were at the scene.  There

          10       was no requirement, he told us, for him to note the

          11       incident.  Z51 told him that he had found the gun and

          12       was on the phone when he found it.

          13           Ms Mallon was called by Z51 at about 18.20 on

          14       the 4th.  Her note of how she remembered it was given to

          15       you.  She recalls she thinks that she wrote it as she

          16       heard it and then Mick Foote at 18.24 called Fiona

          17       Mallon, 18.30 was the repeated information time, and she

          18       recorded:

          19           "Apparently MD came towards officers firing."

          20           He did not recall telling her that.

          21           Z51 did not hear any officer saying that Mr Duggan

          22       had fired (2/10, page 167).

          23           PC Richard Green was the officer, firearms officer,

          24       who went to the scene to make safe the firearm that was

          25       found on the grass (24/10, page 137).


                                            51
 

 

 


           1           The photographs in the jury bundle show how he found

           2       the gun and what condition it looked like at that time.

           3       The muzzle and the cocking hammer were visible, as was

           4       the safety lever.  When he made it safe there was

           5       a round at the top of the magazine (24/10, page 148) but

           6       there was no round actually in the chamber and the

           7       safety catch was off.  So it was able to be fired but

           8       there was not actually a bullet in the chamber to fire

           9       that would have risen up with the action.

          10           He said that if there was a bullet in the magazine

          11       all that is required to fire is to pull the slide back

          12       at the top, let it go, and then pull the trigger but

          13       obviously, Mr Green said, you cannot tell whether the

          14       gun is ready to fire by looking at it, especially if

          15       it's in a sock.

          16           So PC Hughes said, in the condition the gun was in

          17       when they found it, the weapon would not have actually

          18       fired.

          19           Inspector Elliott recorded that Mr Duggan had

          20       discarded the gun because that is his painting a picture

          21       (24/10, page 197).

          22           Z51 did not say Mr Duggan had fired (page 200).  He

          23       did not recall what Mr Cundy had said because before he

          24       left the scene at 9.15 he handed over to Mr Dowe and

          25       briefed him.


                                            52
 

 

 


           1           W42 was wearing a t-shirt over his holster, he did

           2       not know who at first had shot him.  He saw the medical

           3       examiner between 22.50 and 22.58 that evening.  He was

           4       shot during a targeted arrest.  A round did go through

           5       his t-shirt and embed in the radio, there is no way he

           6       would have told her, the doctor, that he had been shot

           7       by the subject although that was an account that was

           8       recorded.

           9           Steve Williams recorded that on Thursday

          10       4 August 6.30 he received a phone call where he was

          11       informed that there had been a police shooting and

          12       a male had shot at police and the police had shot him.

          13       (7/11, page 9).

          14           He then called Mr Suggett and accepted that he told

          15       DI Suggett the information that he had received.  When

          16       he arrived at Leman Street he was updated by the

          17       Post-Incident Manager and Alastair Sutherland of the

          18       officer's initial account and, at that stage, he did not

          19       say there had been an exchange of fire.  From that point

          20       on, he had worked on a possible assumption that it could

          21       be an unintentional discharge or a ricochet.

          22           Mr Fitzgibbon of the IPCC was briefed that there had

          23       been an exchange of fire.  This was a working

          24       hypothesis.  He said that whilst searching the area

          25       around the minicab, found on the passenger door a small


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       blood spattering and he pointed that out to DC Payne.

           2           Just on DC Payne, he is actually the officer who

           3       takes possession of exhibits and because it has become

           4       perhaps a little bit more important in view of evidence

           5       we heard, he told us about taking possession of Mark

           6       Duggan's jacket and all the exhibits were JMA.  For

           7       example, he found a key on a ring, JMA/24.  He was

           8       asked: well, what's the next exhibit?  It means split

           9       from clothing.  Can you help us about the mobile phone

          10       that was recovered from Mark Duggan?  Where did that

          11       come from?  He said: well, I have not said, it has just

          12       come split as an exhibit number from the jacket.

          13           So one has the difficulty here, members of the jury,

          14       about the importance, perhaps, of the mobile phone as to

          15       where it actually was.

          16           The evidence we got from Jonathan Payne about it

          17       (5/11, page 161-163) indicates that when he was asked by

          18       Mr Underwood, where did the matter come from, the mobile

          19       phone, and he just says, well, it has come from the

          20       defendant's clothing:

          21           "Question: Where was it found?

          22           "Answer: I have put split from JMA/24.

          23           "Question: What does that mean?

          24           "Answer: Well, I don't know what pocket it came

          25       from.


                                            54
 

 

 


           1           "Question: Did that come from the lower front

           2       pocket, as you said about the key, can you help?

           3           "Answer: I can't.  It's an oversight on my part, I'm

           4       sorry."

           5           Then he was asked further:

           6           "When you said split from JMA/24, has it come from

           7       the pocket within the jacket?

           8           "Answer: All I can say is that if I had written that

           9       it was split from JMA/24 then it has come from a pocket

          10       within the jacket.  If it had come from the floor that

          11       is what I would have written."

          12           But of course the possession by the Exhibits

          13       Officers of clothing of a deceased man happens much

          14       later after the event and one does not quite know the

          15       crime scene management problems as to how these exhibits

          16       have been actually collected and put together.  That is

          17       the best that we have been able to do.

          18           Anyway, back to further initial reports and crime

          19       scene management problems.

          20           Mr Vaughan attended the scene late on Thursday 4th.

          21       He was told initial reports were of three shots being

          22       fired.  Mr Vaughan said that the gun in the grass had

          23       the safety in the up off safety position, through one

          24       hole the muzzle of the gun to be could be seen.  There

          25       was one cartridge in the magazine.


                                            55
 

 

 


           1           When he examined the holster, there was material

           2       consistent with there being an improvised projectile

           3       retained in the radio.  This is when he examines the

           4       holster that was on W42, and so there was some evidence

           5       that they thought at that stage that that was

           6       a non-police issue bullet and that was another reason

           7       why there was some more misinformation coming out at

           8       that time.

           9           Stuart Cundy, who was the Commander responsible for

          10       Trident, as we know, had these phone calls and he too had

          11       a note:

          12           "Gun to officer, circumstances not known CO officer

          13       shot, not known if by CO19/MD (29/10, page 13)."

          14           So the problems went on.  He was not told, he said,

          15       Mr Cundy, by Fiona Mallon that Mr Duggan had come

          16       towards officers firing, as was quoted elsewhere.  If he

          17       had he would have noted that down.  He said his note of

          18       the call with Z51 at 18.50 records:

          19           "MD out of cab, gun to officer circs not known."

          20           Mr Cundy was never told Mark Duggan had moved to

          21       an officer with a gun.

          22           Brian Elliott told him that Mark Duggan had raised

          23       his arm with a gun in his hands.  He was unaware

          24       Mr Elliott had taken an account or that Mr Elliott had

          25       taken an account from V53.  So Mr Cundy said his


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       statement is not written completely chronologically.

           2           So that was a part of the difficulties that we had

           3       concerning that, and there were problems about the

           4       handover of the crime scene, the exhibits, the removal,

           5       as we know, of the taxi and its replacement, which all

           6       may have an impact on the expert evidence that we will

           7       come on and look at in a few moments' time.

           8               The Location and Finding of the Gun

           9           So that brings me to what DI Suggett told us about

          10       the scene and informed us about the gun, before we come

          11       onto the direct evidence concerning the gun on the

          12       grass.

          13           DI Suggett whose role was to support the IPCC,

          14       because he was from the Directorate of Police Services,

          15       and he was asked for by the IPCC for his expertise.  He

          16       had access to resources that they don't have access to.

          17       He got to the scene at 9.25 pm.  He spoke to Inspector

          18       Saunders who he believed was in charge of the scene at

          19       that time.  He said he would take over charge until the

          20       IPCC arrived (5/11, page 69).

          21           DI Suggett needed to establish that the scene was

          22       secure, nothing was being interfered with.  He was not

          23       told how the gun had got to its location.  His statement

          24       said:

          25           "During one of these briefings I believe I was told


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       that following the shooting of Mark Duggan, CO19

           2       officers had apparently thrown a firearm found in his

           3       possession over a fence so that it was out of reach and

           4       it would no longer pose a threat to them (5/11,

           5       page 70)."

           6           He did not recall a specific conversation with

           7       anybody telling him those facts.  He thought it was more

           8       likely to have come from a briefing with Ms Larrigan or

           9       Mr Cundy.  He thought he had a conversation with

          10       Mr Omotosho about that and at about 1 o'clock in the

          11       morning he did not have anymore information to suggest

          12       otherwise than he would have initially been briefed.

          13           Mr Cundy gave him a further briefing, which was

          14       similar to the information that he had.

          15           Then finally Mr Richard Omotosho, who was one of the

          16       IPCC investigators that we heard from, he told you,

          17       members of the jury, how he attended Ferry Lane,

          18       4 August (5/11, page 1) he spoke to DI Suggett who was

          19       on-call DPS Senior Investigator.  He looked across and

          20       saw where the firearm had been and asked DI Suggett how

          21       did the gun get there and DI Suggett replied to him,

          22       "Mr Omotosho, the police threw it".  He did not ask any

          23       further questions as to the reply and presumed all the

          24       information was in hand.  He was cross-examined about

          25       that but he was quite firm that that was the answer that


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       he recalls at that time.  He did not have any other

           2       discussions about the gun with anybody else.

           3           So let me now come to that heading, which is how did

           4       the gun get on the grass.

           5                How did the Gun get on the Grass?

           6           Let me just remind you of the evidence that I have

           7       already put before you from Miss J.  She told you about

           8       how there was a memory that she had of an officer being

           9       in the taxi, then seeing the handgun and there was

          10       an officer she called handgun officer, who was running

          11       away carrying a gun.  She said that she had her daughter

          12       with her at the time and so it was that the Coroner's

          13       team asked to speak with the daughter, who we then

          14       realised was not a young daughter, she was 18 years of

          15       age so perfectly able to give her account.

          16                        Daughter of Miss J

          17           So you heard from the daughter of Miss J, again by

          18       video link (25/11, page 4 onwards).

          19           The daughter of Miss J she said she was on the other

          20       side of Jarrow Road from the green.  She was with her

          21       mum.  She could not see if the minicab door was open or

          22       not.  She did not remember seeing anything or anyone go

          23       in or out of the minicab.  She saw a guy, she thought,

          24       get something from the minicab and then run towards

          25       Tottenham Hale Station.  She did not see what he got


                                            59
 

 

 


           1       from the taxi because it looked like it was covered with

           2       a piece of material or cloth (page 5).  She did not see

           3       him because she was focusing on Mr Duggan who was on the

           4       floor.

           5           The man with the white arrow in the video was not

           6       the man she had seen.  The man she saw running had

           7       a dark top.  She did not see a gun, she could not see

           8       what he was holding because it looked like there was

           9       something covering it (25/11, page 13-14).

          10           She did not mention a cloth in her interview and

          11       an extract of the BBC footage was shown to her for her

          12       comment but she was not able to help us anymore.

          13                       Kieran Ely O'Carroll

          14           Another witness, Mr Ely O'Carroll, saw an officer

          15       put an evidence board out on the grass (25/11, page 50).

          16       That officer interacted with other officers who turned

          17       up on the grass.  The officers initially moved some

          18       youths away.  He said he was at the bottom of the green

          19       on Jarrow Road he said he saw the officers arrive some

          20       form of estate car had pulled up.

          21           He had a memory of cordoning tape being put up

          22       around the grass area but does not know at which point

          23       chronologically this happened.  An officer on the grass

          24       greeted one of the officers within a group of other

          25       officers that arrived to put the cordon up, and


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           1       an officer pointed out something on the grass to another

           2       officer.

           3                      Other Witness Accounts

           4           Other accounts, Z51 said that he did not see

           5       Mr Duggan's arms.  They were not above shoulder height,

           6       he did not see anything being thrown (2/10, page 158).

           7           V59 in his account, did not see a handgun, did not

           8       see a handgun go flying (8/10, page 141).  He did not

           9       see Mr Duggan make any action of an arm throwing a gun

          10       over a fence when he was leaving the minicab.

          11           R31 did not see a firearm (10/10, page 119) or a gun

          12       flying through the air (page 120).

          13           R31 did not see Mr Duggan's arms raise up but would

          14       have seen that from his position had it happened, he

          15       said.

          16           The taxi driver did not know if Mr Duggan opened the

          17       box in the back of his taxi.  All he could say is that

          18       when the box was handed over, that he thought he put it

          19       on the seat in front of him, as we told you earlier, and

          20       when the taxi driver braked for the stop, he, the taxi

          21       driver, thought the box that did not fall off the seat

          22       onto the floor of the taxi but it would have stayed

          23       there.

          24           There was a forensic scientist, Jonathan Orford,

          25       whose very brief evidence was about gunshot residue and


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       his quote was from his note:

           2           "Not known whether suspect shot at police.  Suspect

           3       weapon over fence.  Police may have taken and thrown

           4       (11/11, page 35)."

           5           The explanation for that may be that he was briefed

           6       by Patricia Larrigan when she handed over to John

           7       Cockram, the Crime Scene Manager.  Ms Larrigan was

           8       saying that this may be one of the possibilities.

           9           V59 said he was expecting to see a firearm because

          10       the officers were talking about the firearm and the

          11       shots had been fired.  Nobody was talking about then

          12       what exactly had happened but it became clear within

          13       a minute or two that V53 had shot Mr Duggan and the

          14       round had gone through and hit W40 -- this is V59

          15       talking (8/10, page 145) -- then he said that, as time

          16       passed, it became apparent they could not find the

          17       firearm, ie Mr Duggan's firearm (page 143) and, as

          18       a result, he asked R31 to look for it and after some

          19       minutes R31 informed V59 that he had found a gun on the

          20       grass, that evidence from V59 certainly (8/10,

          21       page 145).  Members of the jury, you will remember

          22       seeing R31 climbing up over the fence on the street

          23       light to get over and search on the other side.  We

          24       looked at that piece of the film quite a few times now.

          25                          R31's Account


                                            62
 

 

 


           1           What did R31 say?  He told you (10/10, page 124)

           2       that he had started to look for a gun because V59 had

           3       generally asked people to look for the gun.  He made

           4       an assessment of where the gun could be.  He saw the

           5       bushes and thought that's where it would be.  He walked

           6       to where Mr Duggan was lying and then walked

           7       methodically along the bushes.  It did not occur to him

           8       the gun was in the cab because his colleagues had

           9       engaged, so the gun must be outside.

          10           As he walked down he saw something black out of the

          11       corner of his eye, he did not see Z51 near him at that

          12       time (10/10, page 126-127).  He did not look at the area

          13       where Mr Duggan was when asked to find the gun because

          14       there was such a lot of activity there he thought that

          15       it would have been found if it was in that area.

          16           R31 said to us he was by the Alpha car when V59

          17       first asked him -- or asked them -- to look for the gun

          18       and at that point he went around and then looked in the

          19       bushes next to Mr Duggan.

          20                          Q63's Account

          21           Another account from Q63.  Two or three seconds

          22       after the shooting, Q63 told us that he looked in the

          23       minicab (9/10, page 163); not getting into the minicab,

          24       he said, but looking into it.  And he was looking around

          25       generally, trying to assist.


                                            63
 

 

 


           1           It was put to him directly that he had disappeared

           2       behind the minicab in the BBC footage.  Somebody asked

           3       him to open a second medi pack; that was his reason for

           4       doing that, that the officers that were giving first aid

           5       were contaminated with blood.

           6           When he was seen pointing over the wall, what he was

           7       doing there was concerned about a large crowd gathering

           8       by Jarrow Road; was trying to direct resources to keep

           9       that area sterile.

          10           When Q63 was filmed on the BBC footage walking in

          11       the middle of the road, he was communicating back to the

          12       control room giving them an update on the status of the

          13       casualties at the scene, requesting more units,

          14       resources and stuff to try and coordinate as best he

          15       could do.

          16           He said, between 4.01-4.14 on the BBC footage, he

          17       was looking over the fence because there was a crowd

          18       gathering by Jarrow Road.  He told you how he wanted to

          19       see if resources already directed needed further help.

          20           Q63 walked back round the minicab after checking on

          21       the taxi driver.  Someone asked him to go and open up an

          22       extra medi kit.  He is not sure who asked him.  He did

          23       not mention this in any statement because he did not

          24       believe it was relevant.

          25           Q63 agreed that medi packs are not by the side of


                                            64
 

 

 


           1       the minicab in the photograph that we can see of it.

           2       But in any event he said he was asked and that is where

           3       he opened it.  He did not get any bandages out of the

           4       medi pack, he just opened them; he did not know what the

           5       officers actually wanted.

           6           He was saying that when they were all talking

           7       together on the film, Q63, V59 and R31 were not talking

           8       about the gun.

           9           Q63 did not see a box in the minicab, did not go

          10       into the minicab.

          11           He did not know if there was a firearm in the

          12       immediate vicinity where Mr Duggan was shot until the

          13       gun was found.  As a result, when walking around he was

          14       not looking for a gun.

          15                     Who Found the Gun First?

          16           Then we have had this evidence, which you are going

          17       to have to think carefully about, concerning the

          18       directions as to who found the gun first and what

          19       conclusions you can safely draw from it.  Because

          20       evidence was read to you from three officers: PC Gibson;

          21       PC Christiansen; PC Jim Fowler.

          22           As you know, in advance of this hearing, all

          23       statements that were made -- I point behind me to a big

          24       carousel full of statements (indicates) -- were served

          25       on the legal teams of the interested parties and they


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       are asked to request which witnesses they would like to

           2       ask questions of in case there are disputes or whether

           3       a witness could aid and assist you, the jury, further in

           4       this Inquest.

           5           No one disputed the evidence of PC Christiansen, PC

           6       Gibson or Jim Fowler.  PC Gibson said in his statement,

           7       which was read out to you (7/11, page 86):

           8           "We arrived at Ferry Lane, where we were met by

           9       a TST officer who I know as V59.  We liaised with V59,

          10       who stated that a firearm was in the grassed area just

          11       on the other side of the iron railings and asked that we

          12       secure it."

          13           That's his undisputed evidence.

          14           PC Christiansen's evidence, again read (7/11), said:

          15           "As we arrived at the scene, we were met by a TST

          16       officer, who I know to be V59.  He stated that the

          17       firearm was on the other side of the railings and he

          18       asked us that we secure it."

          19           Mr Fowler said the same.  His evidence was read

          20       22/10, page 171).

          21           So we have three officers all saying that that's

          22       what happened.

          23           Indeed, V59 said that was what happened.  V59 said,

          24       in his oral evidence when he first gave evidence before

          25       you (8/10, page 145), that he was concerned that the


                                            66
 

 

 


           1       firearm had not been found.  He had asked R31 to look

           2       for the firearm and then he said that R31 informed him

           3       that he found the gun on the other side of the railings

           4       on the grassed area.

           5           Then he said, as indeed he said within his witness

           6       statement beforehand, an ARV, Armed Response Vehicle,

           7       arrived and "I asked them to go and preserve the scene

           8       where the gun had been found".

           9           Now, everyone might have felt quite secure with that

          10       account if it wasn't for Witness B, because it was

          11       Witness B's BBC footage that showed that that couldn't

          12       be the case.  Without that BBC footage, this would have

          13       just been completely accepted and we would not have any

          14       worries about it.

          15           What the BBC footage showed, on R31 and everyone

          16       else's account, is that at the time that V59 spoke to

          17       the ARV officers, neither R31 nor Z51 had found the gun.

          18       That's why V59 was asked to come back to explain.  He

          19       got rather heated in explaining it, because the way it

          20       was worked out, because of the BBC footage, showed that

          21       there was a great difficulty about this.  Because we

          22       have got V59 directing officers to secure a gun which

          23       had not yet been found.

          24           Now, the answer to this is something which you are

          25       going to have to think about, members of the jury.  This


                                            67
 

 

 


           1       is part of your difficult job in this Inquest.  It is

           2       not a question about anybody being mistaken, one can

           3       overlook it.  It is something which is a direct

           4       contradiction here.

           5           What conclusions you can draw from it or not are

           6       entirely a matter for you.  But, nevertheless, there is

           7       that stark problem.  Merely because people do give

           8       evidence which does not match in, of course does not

           9       sometimes mean anything at all.  Merely because you

          10       think, "Well, here is a conspiracy", does not actually

          11       mean that they are conspiring for bad things rather than

          12       good things.  I do not know what the position is here.

          13       You will have to tell me, if you feel it is relevant,

          14       what you conclude from it.

          15           If you feel unable to conclude anything, then you

          16       are in a search for the truth and you must try your best

          17       to work out what has gone on here.

          18           Of course, some suggestion is made that, when you

          19       look at the footage, there is a talking of three

          20       officers, V59, Q63 and R31, in advance of this piece of

          21       evidence happening.  Of course, V59 now says, "Well no,

          22       I didn't tell the ARV officers to go and secure the gun.

          23       I just told them to go down there to take the crowds

          24       away and that I must have told them that later".

          25           Well, that is for you to consider, as to whether he


                                            68
 

 

 


           1       is right and accurate about that.  You must let the

           2       court know what your conclusions are, if you are able.

           3           What did Z51 say about it?  You remember him walking

           4       very purposefully across, going to where the gun was,

           5       and we have that photograph of him pointing to it that

           6       we have been referring to from time to time.

           7           Z51 said he was on the phone to Mr Foote and could

           8       hear one of the firearms officers saying they had not

           9       located the firearm.  He thought, "I wonder if anybody

          10       has looked to the left of the wall where it happened".

          11       That is the quote from his evidence (2/10, page 30).

          12           So Z51 took a couple of steps and the gun was just

          13       on the ground on the grass.  He said to Mr Foote, "I've

          14       found the firearm".  Nobody had alerted him to the

          15       presence of the gun on the grass before that.

          16           The firearms officer alerted Z51 of the fact they

          17       could not find the gun (2/10, page 105).  Z51 was not

          18       told directly by any CO19 officer that they could not

          19       find the gun but he heard -- Z51 was not told directly

          20       he could not find the gun, but he heard someone say it.

          21           Z51 said the topic of the day at the scene at first

          22       was not, "Where is the gun?", it was first aid.

          23           Z51 did not hear any suggestion amongst officers

          24       that an officer had thrown the gun over the fence.

          25           Z51 did not see any officer with the gun, did not


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           1       see anybody going anywhere near the minicab, going into

           2       the minicab, no one asked him for permission to go into

           3       the minicab.

           4           Z51 could not remember what he was talking about

           5       with the man with the white shirt, Q63, but it was

           6       something to do with preserving the scene.

           7           V59 said that Z51 did not tell him that he had found

           8       the gun.

           9           So there are a lot of people finding the gun but not

          10       telling anybody else about it.

          11           Please remember at all times: part of the evidence,

          12       as I said to you at the beginning, is your view and your

          13       assessment.  I was quite aware that the other day when

          14       you got out and walked to the scene, that you were

          15       commenting about how easily you could see the gun lying

          16       on the grass just over the railings from where the

          17       incident happened.  Please be very careful to put any

          18       weight on that because obviously we are now in December,

          19       this is August.

          20           Look at the photographs (indicates).  Always remind

          21       yourself of all the vegetation that is growing there,

          22       the fact, no doubt, the grass is a little bit longer and

          23       growing and the various other matters.  When in fact the

          24       gun was there, it was in fact underneath the exhibit bag

          25       that we had prepared for you, so it may not be quite so


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           1       difficult to have spotted it when we went on the view

           2       than it might have been in the panic of the moment,

           3       because no doubt there was a lot of panic, as we can see

           4       from the BBC footage.

           5           So the rest of the evidence about this came from

           6       ZZ75.  He called for an ambulance.  ZZ17 ran towards him

           7       shouting for one.  He was approached by an arms officers

           8       requesting items that could be used to protect a

           9       firearm.  He retrieved a flat pack cardboard evidence

          10       box and a large plastic bag from his car.  He was

          11       directed to a grassed area where he saw what he believed

          12       to be a pistol wrapped in dark cloth, possibly a sock.

          13       He folded up the cardboard box, placed it over the

          14       pistol to protect it from the elements.  He then placed

          15       the large plastic bag over it and that firearm officer

          16       planted a plant pot on the corner of the plastic bag to

          17       secure it.

          18           I am very well aware that you, at one time during

          19       this, asked me the question where did that cannabis

          20       plant come from.  We do not know and we do not have that

          21       evidence.  So that will be one of the mysteries that

          22       I am not going to ask you to clarify for us because we

          23       will never know.  But you can see a photograph of this

          24       little pot with the plant in it being used to secure the

          25       plastic evidence bag.


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           1           Immediately afterwards, ZZ63 walked over and saw

           2       CO19 officers with Trident officers next to the minicab.

           3       He could see CO19 officers giving CPR.  He then went to

           4       the green towards Jarrow Road and ushered people away

           5       from the scene.  He was aware that there were people

           6       around.

           7           Z51 asked ZZ50 to write down the times.  ZZ50

           8       started in his day book with the call requesting HEMS.

           9       ZZ50 was with Z51; he would take entries as he said

          10       them, not necessarily chronologically.

          11           He, ZZ50, said he did not hear anyone saying that

          12       they needed to find a gun.

          13           After the taxi driver had been taken out of the

          14       minicab, he could not see anything of his car apart from

          15       the driver's door.  He did not know if anyone went into

          16       the minicab but he was asked about whether he -- he was

          17       leaning against the cab, as we can see from one of the

          18       photographs actually, where he has had his face blacked

          19       out, but he is there by the cab -- and he said he did

          20       not feel the cab rock as though there were lots of

          21       people getting into the minicab, but he would not have

          22       known if someone had lent into it.

          23           So that is the evidence there and the evidence for

          24       you to consider on that question.

          25           The final part of all the summing-up now comes after


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           1       the factual evidence that I have been dealing with to

           2       the expert evidence that you had heard from a number of

           3       sources on a number of topics.

           4                            Toxicology

           5           One source that I can deal with quite quickly

           6       concerns the position of Mr Duggan and whether he had

           7       alcohol, drugs and such like in his body.

           8           Let me just remind you about expert evidence, as

           9       I was telling you on the first day of my summing-up.

          10           This Inquest has been greatly assisted by the number

          11       and the weight of expert opinion evidence.  It is

          12       important, because it can be used to show forensic

          13       scientific links between people, places and objects.  It

          14       can be used as well, as in this case, to test the oral

          15       evidence of the various witnesses.

          16           But it is also important for you to realise that it

          17       does have limitations because it only proves really, in

          18       effect, positive links not negative conclusions.

          19           That is, a fingerprint may prove a finger of

          20       Mark Duggan left an impression on the box in the cab,

          21       for example.  But without other fingerprints does not

          22       mean he did not handle other parts of the box or other

          23       parts of the cab or whatever.  Or the mere fact we have

          24       not got a fingerprint taken from the doorway does not

          25       mean he might not have put his hand on it to get out, or


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           1       whatever it might be.  Sometimes fingerprints are left,

           2       sometimes they are not.

           3           Again, one matter here that is of importance is

           4       about the presence or absence of gunshot residue types 1

           5       and 2, which comes from police.

           6           Some experts are clearly reluctant to put on

           7       likelihoods of forensic trace, so whilst they can say

           8       this connects this and that to the other; the absence of

           9       it, some of them -- most of them that we have heard are

          10       very coy and rather reluctant to say anything about

          11       whether that gives a likelihood of the negative

          12       happening.

          13           So one of the things which it seems to me was right

          14       for us to ask, as indeed we all did, of the gunshot

          15       residue people: the mere fact that there is no gunshot

          16       residue on the sock on the gun on the grass -- save for

          17       one tiny particle of gunshot residue, which we

          18       understand is always to be eliminated as having any

          19       evidential basis, wherever one particle is found as

          20       opposed to more than one particle.  We have one particle

          21       on the sock only and we were trying to get: well, if

          22       Mark Duggan had the gun there when he was shot, a metre

          23       to three metres away, and there is gunshot residue on

          24       the rest of the body, what is the likelihood of that

          25       happening?  We could not get it.  I am afraid the


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           1       experts said, "I am terribly sorry, we cannot say.  The

           2       difficulty is that Mark Duggan was obviously being

           3       worked on afterwards by CO19 officers, who have gunshot

           4       residue all over them, and it is very, very difficult to

           5       come to any likelihoods or conclusions".

           6           So there are areas of limitation then in the expert

           7       evidence, but it does not mean there is not actually

           8       a real value in what they say.

           9                   Professor Alexander Forrest

          10           Let me now remind you then of the first part of the

          11       evidence, which came from Professor Forrest.  He talked

          12       about the position of drugs in the body of Mark Duggan.

          13           He, Professor Forrest, said that it is more rather

          14       than less likely, from the chemical tests, that

          15       Mark Duggan had MDMA in his body for perhaps a couple of

          16       hours or so before he died.  (5/11, page 132).

          17           It does not exclude the possibility that he may have

          18       taken more than one dose at different times (page 132).

          19           But it is more rather than less likely that he would

          20       have been stimulated, that he would have been

          21       experiencing relief from fatigue, that he would have

          22       been feeling relaxed and may have been feeling fairly

          23       good about things in general and probably enjoying the

          24       experience of being driven in the back of the taxi.

          25           In his statement, he said the possible effects of


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           1       MDMA on his mind at that time are likely to have

           2       included impairment of thinking processes,

           3       inappropriately euphoric mood for the circumstances and

           4       impairment of judgement as to the right action to take.

           5           He told us a lot about long term use of MDMA; that

           6       might have increased the chance that he could react

           7       impulsively, but he cannot be sure about this in this

           8       case.  He can be more rather than less sure that

           9       Mr Duggan had taken an abusive dose of -- rather less

          10       sure that he could have taken any other thing, such as

          11       cocaine.

          12           Really, putting into that, one has to have the

          13       evidence of Marlon, the brother, about the phone call,

          14       Marlon saying that Mark Duggan was perfectly normal.

          15       The taxi driver was having a perfectly normal

          16       conversation with Mark Duggan before the incident.

          17           So there may not be too much for you to conclude or

          18       need to conclude about that.

          19                          Blood Spatter

          20                           Andrew Bell

          21           The other expert that I will deal with now very

          22       briefly is Mr Bell.  He was the expert who dealt with

          23       blood.

          24           His evidence was quite direct about that.  He said

          25       that bloodstains are capable, if found, of showing


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           1       a pattern of blood spatter which can give more

           2       definition of the position of Mark Duggan when he was

           3       shot.

           4           Andrew Bell gave his evidence on 7 November (7/11).

           5       You have his report in your bundles at C23.

           6           He took his examination at Perivale, where the car

           7       was stored, on 9 August.  He said there were spots of

           8       blood on the sliding door, there was a bloodstain on the

           9       front passenger door and bloodstain on the passenger

          10       seal below the footplate where you enter the taxi in and

          11       out.  So he was able to reconstruct from that, drawing

          12       the circle on that plan that you have, as to the likely

          13       position of Mark Duggan when the blood drops were --

          14       when they were put on the doors.

          15           In the divider which you have, there are his notes

          16       and measurements.

          17           The other part of his evidence was that he did not

          18       have, or observe, any further bloodstains as such on the

          19       outside of the van, or indeed on the internal surfaces

          20       of the sliding door or underside surfaces of the

          21       threshold of that.

          22           So he came to that conclusion, that Mr Duggan was

          23       facing to the rear of the minicab, more likely the blood

          24       spatter came from the chest wound and the entry of that

          25       chest wound onto the back of the taxi.


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           1           So that was his evidence.

           2                          Fingerprints

           3           We then had evidence about fingerprints on the gun

           4       in particular.

           5                           Ian Richards

           6           We had the evidence from Ian Richards on 12/11, who

           7       took photographs of the box.  He could find nothing on

           8       the gun.  There was some ridge detail on it but nothing

           9       sufficient for any proper tests.

          10                          Michael Barber

          11           Michael Barber did not find Mr Duggan's fingerprints

          12       on the gun either.  (18/11).

          13                        Jacqueline Landais

          14           Jacqueline Landais, who gave evidence before us, was

          15       the fingerprint of expert who looked at those

          16       fingerprints that were found on the box.

          17           She said that Mr Duggan's fingerprints were only

          18       found in one area -- she made that note on the screen

          19       for us -- a part by the right palm, another part made by

          20       the right middle finger.

          21           It looked to her as though he was lifting or holding

          22       the bottom of the box.  She said those marks could be

          23       made when the lid of the box was slightly lifted, as the

          24       top of the box does not reach the bottom of the box, but

          25       she did not feel comfortable to say that that was


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           1       definitely the case.

           2           She said that there seems to be a mark at area 7,

           3       which could be right middle finger (12/11, page 13),

           4       which showed he touched the top of the box with his

           5       right hand.  Again, she could not say any more than

           6       that.

           7           There were other unidentified fingerprints on the

           8       box.  The CO19 officers take fingerprints; they have

           9       their database and they check against it, but no

          10       specific test was done against any named officer or

          11       other people.

          12           Ms Landais said that no fingerprints attributable to

          13       Mr Duggan were recovered from the gun, as we know.

          14       There were some insufficient prints found on the gun,

          15       but there was nothing there.  There were prints from

          16       Kevin Hutchinson-Foster and Desire Cox that were found,

          17       but, again, they do not assist us in this Inquest.

          18                           DNA Evidence

          19           Then we had DNA evidence.

          20                         Saranjeet Khera

          21           The expert that gave evidence about that for us was

          22       Saranjeet Khera (13/11).  We have her report at C26.

          23           It is important there, within that report -- I am

          24       not going to read out matters -- but she sets out in the

          25       report the way that one should approach, again, DNA


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           1       findings.  It is all to do with likelihoods of

           2       mismatches.

           3           So the likelihood of finding something which left

           4       DNA, whether it's saliva, blood or other bodily fluid,

           5       likely to have that coming from someone other than the

           6       suspect that you are trying to link it up with is then

           7       put into a likelihood.

           8           So again, with that expertise, you never get the

           9       expert to say, "I am 100 per cent sure that this is

          10       Mr Duggan's DNA".  What they do say is that, "I can look

          11       at that and the likelihood of it not being his DNA is 1

          12       in a billion", which is the highest rate.

          13           So that is the way it is put.  It's fully explained

          14       and I am not going to read out the scientific pages that

          15       we have within the reports within your bundle.

          16           She said that the DNA scientific findings do not

          17       assist in determining whether or not Mark Duggan handled

          18       the gun, sock, magazine or the live round.

          19           She said that DNA was found on each bullet that was

          20       passed through him from him and the sock and the gun had

          21       DNA from the blood of Kevin Hutchinson-Foster and

          22       Peter Osadbey, but really no more than that.

          23           There was this mixed sample of three or more.  We

          24       can remember the interesting cross-examination that we

          25       had about whether that was of any evidential value at


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           1       all.  It was quite clear that it was not and I would

           2       invite you to ignore that as assisting you in your

           3       inquiry in this case.

           4                     Dr Desmond Vanhinsbergh

           5           Dr Desmond Vanhinsbergh, his report is put before

           6       you at C33 in your bundle (19/11).

           7           He agreed with Ms Khera, that the two sampled areas

           8       which had mixed DNA could include three or more people

           9       from which Mark Duggan cannot be excluded, but that

          10       could be matched by chance and thus results are

          11       inclusive and do not assist in determining whether DNA

          12       from Mark Duggan was present on the sock.

          13           The box was no longer able to be DNA tested because

          14       it had too much other forensic examinations.  The

          15       scientific findings in his view provide no evidence of

          16       transfer from DNA from Mark Duggan to the firearm.

          17           He conceded that you can handle an item without

          18       transferring detectable amounts of DNA onto it.  So

          19       again it does not prove the negative, which obviously is

          20       an important aspect.

          21           So that was the DNA evidence.  Let us now look at

          22       the gunshot residue.

          23           I am doing this in short form, members of the jury.

          24       I am sure each of the experts will forgive me for not

          25       reading out pages and pages of CV.  I think one


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           1       gentleman had 13 pages on his CV.  I am sure he will

           2       forgive me that I do not go through that.  You have all

           3       that.  If you need to look at the background and

           4       experience of the witnesses that you're considering, you

           5       are able to do that in due course once you are

           6       considering the answers to the questions that I have

           7       posed.

           8                         Gunshot Residue

           9           Gunshot residue, these are tiny invisible

          10       microscopic particles that travel along the barrel

          11       behind the bullet and come out in a cone shape and land

          12       on objects up to about three metres away.

          13           You can remembering Angela Shaw coming with the big

          14       bullet that she pulled apart and showed us.  It is

          15       important to realise, as we did that, there are really

          16       effectively three types that we are concerned with.

          17       Type 1 and 2 gunshot residue comes from police

          18       armaments, Type 3 generally non-police armaments.

          19           There is also a particle which is described as

          20       flash-bang particles which show earlier use of

          21       pyrotechnics and such like in police training.

          22                           Angela Shaw

          23           Angela Shaw, her report C28 (13/11), she said that

          24       gunshot residue types 1 and 2 were on Mark Duggan's

          25       jacket, consistent with the two shots.  They were


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           1       concentrated around the holes in the jackets.  They said

           2       the single particle of gunshot residue Type 3 in Mark

           3       Duggan's back pocket is inconclusive as to whether that

           4       had come from a gun that Mark Duggan had or whether he

           5       had a gun at all.  Really just no evidential

           6       significance that she could put on that.

           7           She said there was no Type 3 GSR in the box itself.

           8       So was there any link between the gun and the box,

           9       that's one of the problems with the whole searching of

          10       the car and the box because, as we know, the PolSA

          11       searchers, they did not realise that the exhibits within

          12       the car, within the taxi, needed to be preserved.  We

          13       had a lot of people after the event coming along and

          14       saying, firstly that the taxi should not have been

          15       removed from the scene, should never have been returned

          16       to the scene, and then never removed again.

          17           So I think the general feeling at the end of the day

          18       is that it should have been removed and preserved before

          19       the weather got at it, but all the items within it also

          20       should have been preserved.  We know this box was not

          21       any significance to the police searching and they just

          22       picked it up and threw it in the back of the taxi where

          23       it was found the next day.  So if there were particles

          24       or fibres in there, as we will deal with fibres in a

          25       moment, some of those could have been lost or displaced.


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           1           So as far as Angela Shaw is concerned, all she could

           2       say is that there was no gunshot residue Type 3 link

           3       between the box and the gun.

           4           There was only one gunshot residue number 1, the

           5       police issue, on the outside of the sock, and that is

           6       where we came back to what I was saying just now: should

           7       we expect more?  She said possible, but unable to say.

           8       There were 330 gunshot residue 1 and 2 particles found

           9       over the jacket.  Although much of this might have come

          10       from officers giving first aid.

          11           She understood that there was a belief that the

          12       firearm and sock may have been in the area of the

          13       waistband but she said that over a limited period of

          14       time transfer is by no means certain to take place, so

          15       you might find residue in the circumstances from

          16       a gunshot residue 3 in that area, but there was not any

          17       and she could draw no definite conclusions one way or

          18       the other.

          19                           Mark Bowden

          20           There was a second gunshot residue expert

          21       Mark Bowden, his report C34 (19/11).  Again, he

          22       emphasised that armed police officers and their vehicles

          23       will have Type 1 and Type 2 gunshot residue, even if

          24       they have not recently discharged a firearm.  In short,

          25       he agreed with what Angela Shaw had said.  He agreed


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           1       that only a single particle of Type 3 GSR on the skin,

           2       hair clothing of Mark Duggan was not conclusive about

           3       whether Mark Duggan possessed the gun and sock

           4       (page 68), he says that there's just no significance.

           5           Again, no link between the sock or the gun and the

           6       box.  He talked about the range of the particles coming

           7       out.  He said between one and three metres, three metres

           8       the maximum distance away between the discharged firearm

           9       and the item having gunshot residue landing on it.

          10           He tested the jeans, jacket, t-shirt.  All had

          11       amounts of Type 1 and Type 2 but no Type 3.  So nothing

          12       transferred from the gun to the front of the clothing

          13       but also no Type 1 or 2, as we know, on the sock, save

          14       for a single particle.

          15           He, again, said if the sock was concealed at the

          16       time, then there could be more but he was again

          17       reluctant to give explanations one way or the other.

          18                          Fibre Analysis

          19           Then we had expertise as to fibres.  We had

          20       Anna-Marie O'Connor analysing fibres, the system, as we

          21       know, of taping garments, items, hands, et cetera, then

          22       looking at those sticky tapes under microscopic

          23       conditions and to see if they match colour and

          24       constituency and such like.

          25                       Anna-Marie O'Connor


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           1           Anna-Marie O'Connor gave evidence (13/11) and her

           2       report is before you, C27.  Her conclusions were, again,

           3       that no fibres in or on the coat could have come from

           4       the sock.  So there was nothing to match the coat that

           5       Mark Duggan wore and the sock.

           6           The same for the jeans.  The four main pockets in

           7       the waistband were tested.  She said if the sock was

           8       with the gun in the pocket was in the pocket or

           9       waistband:

          10           "I would have a reasonable expectation of detecting

          11       fibres that would have come or could have come from the

          12       sock."

          13           In cross-examination she said:

          14           "That expectation would be based on the extent and

          15       duration of contact."

          16           She found that the sock was shedable, "found to shed

          17       well" was her quote.  She said that there were a number

          18       of fibres recovered from the box that did not match the

          19       sock.  Two fibres in the box were indistinguishable from

          20       the sock.  She does not know what happened to the box

          21       between the shooting and when it was recovered.  It does

          22       make interpretation very complicated.  Her summary was

          23       that the fibre findings do not assist in addressing

          24       whether Mark Duggan had any contact with the sock.

          25           She stressed the fear of contamination by


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           1       insufficiently protected exhibit search officers, agreed

           2       that no fibres from the t-shirt were on the sock and

           3       that there was no testing to do with the CO19 police

           4       officers and other fibres.

           5                            Ballistics

           6           So then we come onto the expert evidence which

           7       really deals with the pathology, the ballistics, the

           8       position of Mark Duggan when he was shot.  I think

           9       I will deal with this and then conclude for the morning

          10       when I have concluded this part of the evidence.

          11                          Dr Simon Poole

          12           So Dr Poole, pathologist, gave evidence before you

          13       (13/11) and his report is at C29.  Cause of death was

          14       the gunshot wound to the chest, which we have to

          15       formally record on that form too.

          16           He performed the postmortem on 5 August.  He

          17       measured the entry wound to the chest as 149 centimetres

          18       above the height of the heel.  All these measurements

          19       are done with the body lying prone and measured in that

          20       way.  He believed that the thoracotomy would have

          21       influenced the measurements by exaggerating the height

          22       above the heel.  The wound tract was right to the left

          23       and downwards, approximately 45 degrees from front to

          24       back.

          25           Dr Poole said that the entry wound in the chest is


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           1       roughly two centimetres above the right nipple.  The

           2       wound goes downwards, right to left, and comes out of

           3       the back to the left of the mid-line (14/11, page 13).

           4           The wound tract was substantially downward.

           5       Dr Poole believed that Mr Duggan was substantially

           6       leaning forward and the weapon was pointing slightly

           7       downwards to make that track.  In further questions

           8       (14/11, page 18), he said, no, Mark Duggan was not

           9       upright at the time of that shot.

          10           Dr Poole said Mr Duggan was 178 centimetres tall,

          11       the chest wound entry height was between 136 and

          12       149 centimetres.  The exit wound was 124 centimetres

          13       above the heel.

          14           All these details I am not asking you to write them

          15       down they are being noted and you have them in the

          16       reports before you.

          17           The height of the entry wound to the arm was

          18       144 centimetres, the exit wound was 141, which shows

          19       a slight downward track.

          20           He, Dr Poole, believed it was outside his experience

          21       to talk about the order of the shots, the order of the

          22       injuries.

          23           We know that W42 was five or six inches shorter than

          24       V53 who was 6'2".  The bullet impacted on his radio to

          25       the left side of the rib cage underneath his left


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           1       armpit, if we were trying to recreate that.

           2           So Dr Poole said that for four to ten seconds after

           3       the chest injury somebody would become light-headed and

           4       then collapse shortly afterwards.  So Mr Duggan would be

           5       losing consciousness within four to six seconds, he may

           6       still be able to move immediately after the chest shot.

           7           Dr Poole did not dissect the bicep.  He was unable

           8       to predict the precise position of the hand and firearm

           9       in relation to the upper arm at the time the injury was

          10       sustained because the degree of movement at the elbow is

          11       very large.

          12           Dr Poole said the wound track in the arm would mean

          13       that Mr Duggan was pretty well standing upright for the

          14       arm.  But for the chest, as I say, he would not be.

          15           With the arm shot, he would have been rotated

          16       towards the body, consistent with the lower arm being

          17       across the body.  Mr Duggan's ability to move his arm

          18       after the arm injury, he said would have been

          19       restrictive.  The injury would have caused severe pain

          20       (14/11, page 33) but he would still be able to move his

          21       arm.

          22           The arm wound has a slight left to right track and

          23       the wound on the side of the chest, the shoulder, would

          24       have angled down about 15 degrees.

          25                    Professor Derrick Pounder


                                            89
 

 

 


           1           So then we heard from Professor Pounder.  His

           2       report, C30.  His evidence 14 November, beginning at

           3       page 51.

           4           He said the chest angle shot was 45 degrees because,

           5       when he looked at the body, the thoracotomy wound had

           6       been sewn up, so he had better and more accurate

           7       measurements.

           8           He believed the angle from Mr Poole's PM was about

           9       30 degrees.  He concludes that the downwards angle was

          10       between 30 and 45 degrees, although closer to

          11       45 degrees.

          12           The bullet would not have deflected, whether it's

          13       a nick to the rib or not, the shot on the chest.

          14       Mr Duggan is bent forward where his body has to be

          15       twisted to get the alignment.

          16           You will remember Professor Pounder really crouching

          17       over and then twisting his body, as he was in the

          18       witness box, to show how that chest shot would be

          19       replicated to get that angle from a gun held by someone

          20       of V53's stature, upright in the way V53 said he held

          21       the gun.

          22           Professor Pounder concluded that the bullet went

          23       through the chest and had gone into the minicab and that

          24       the bullet that went through the arm must have been the

          25       one that hit the police officer, based on the trajectory


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           1       of the bullets and the amount of energy the bullets

           2       would have passing -- after having passed through

           3       Mr Duggan.

           4           The bullet passing through the arm goes under the

           5       shoulder, hits the radio because that would mean that it

           6       would not have been slowed down so much by going through

           7       very much of Mr Duggan.

           8           Indeed if the one that had gone through the chest

           9       was the one that hit the radio then the bullet would

          10       have to bounce down off the ground up and then hit W42

          11       in the radio which was very unlikely, said Professor

          12       Pounder.

          13           Professor Pounder had done some tests on ballistic

          14       jelly and he says that if you can fire this sort of

          15       bullet through ballistic jelly after 40 centimetres it

          16       just stops dead because the bullet is hollow tipped, it

          17       expands and slows down and loses energy because as we

          18       know, the purpose of the bullet is that it should not

          19       overpenetrate, ie it should stay within the body and not

          20       come out and hit other people around.  That's the way it

          21       has been designed.

          22           So Professor Pounder could not tell which wound was

          23       inflicted first.  He believed the first shot was to the

          24       arm and the second one was to the chest, but that was

          25       only based on his reading of the witness statements and


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           1       linking them to the pathology.  The shot to the arm

           2       occurred when Mr Duggan was more or less upright, the

           3       chest shot appeared when he was significantly bent

           4       forward.

           5           It was put to him V53's account was therefore

           6       unlikely.

           7           He was then asked about whether, after the arm shot,

           8       going down and twisting, what effect would that have on

           9       someone throwing a gun.  Professor Pounder said that the

          10       arm shot has cavitational effect, tissues are pushed to

          11       one side.  At the time the muscles of the bicep were

          12       contracted, the arm was close in front of the chest

          13       there was nothing to damage the arm which would cast

          14       doubt on the statement of both arms being up, as per

          15       W70's account, but he said, after the arm shot, only if

          16       there was great willpower on the part of Mark Duggan

          17       because there would have been pain and, if he was in the

          18       course of throwing, then he might have been able to

          19       achieve a throw of the gun, or indeed may have, if he

          20       wanted to and could have done, it may have got a shot

          21       off at the officer.

          22                   Professor Jonathan Clasper

          23           Then you heard from Professor Clasper.  You remember

          24       all these experiences of these people all in the files,

          25       he is at C32 (14/11, page 112).  He said in his reports


                                            92
 

 

 


           1       that he was asked to assume Mr Duggan was holding

           2       a handgun and really look about whether he could throw

           3       or did throw the gun after he was shot as a result of

           4       an involuntary movement or a spasm or through willpower.

           5           He said that he could not have been shot and then

           6       make a decision to throw the gun but he could have been

           7       throwing it when he was shot and therefore continue to

           8       do the throw (14/11, page 123-124).

           9           He said that Mr Duggan would not have lost

          10       consciousness immediately after having been shot and

          11       therefore if he was holding the gun he could have been

          12       in the process of throwing it and could have been

          13       capable of completing that throw.

          14           Professor Clasper said Mr Duggan would have lost

          15       consciousness in five to ten seconds.  He said

          16       a reasonable degree of force would be needed for

          17       Mr Duggan to get the gun over the railings.  He agreed

          18       that there was a possibility that he could have thrown

          19       the gun before or as getting out of the cab, in the

          20       position demonstrated, where the arm is low, it's near

          21       the waist but out.  It would be difficult to explain how

          22       the gun ended up where it ended on the way if the throw

          23       was at the time of the shooting.

          24           He said the arm wound was a relatively low energy

          25       transfer injury, that means that there is not much there


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           1       to slow the bullet down as it goes on its way, and

           2       described the cavitational effect as when energy came

           3       through, the arm wound was likely to have significant

           4       cavitation, as we know, and the arm wound would not

           5       cause immediate severe pain.  So someone would not

           6       automatically drop anything that they were holding when

           7       that shot was made, they still could continue whatever

           8       movement they were then doing.

           9           He believed that Mr Duggan's right arm was held in

          10       a rotated position, such that the palm of his hand was

          11       facing relatively backwards.  He did not give an opinion

          12       on whether Mr Duggan's elbow was bent or straight at the

          13       time he was shot.

          14           Professor Clasper believed that Professor Pounder's

          15       suggested position Mr Duggan was in when he was shot in

          16       the chest was a reasonable position.  He was not

          17       directly facing the person who shot him, the downwards

          18       angle was at least 30 degrees, it could be 45 degrees,

          19       and indeed it may have been 60 degrees.  There are all

          20       the degrees down from horizontal.

          21           At first, I think Professor Clasper was saying it

          22       was not as much as 45 degrees, but then actually said it

          23       could be between 30 or 60.  Whether there was that much

          24       difference between those experts, I know not really;

          25       it's a matter entirely for you.


                                            94
 

 

 


           1           Again, Colonel Clasper did not believe there was

           2       enough evidence to say which bullet was fired first.  He

           3       was saying, from his extensive experience, that he would

           4       warn people to exercise great care in looking at wounds,

           5       looking at tracts, and stating exactly where things had

           6       come from.  He thought it was potentially dangerous to

           7       come to too firm conclusions about wound tracts.

           8           He was one who thought, and had experience, of there

           9       being deflections where bullets have hit bones, femurs

          10       spines and such like, with his experience.

          11           He says that the military ammunition that he has

          12       been used to has not been hollow tip bullets like police

          13       bullets; it is not designed to impart energy into the

          14       body, although it frequently does, especially if it

          15       strikes a bone.

          16           So that was his evidence, that there could be

          17       deflection on nicking or hitting a rib but he, again,

          18       warned against putting any particular measurement on

          19       that deflection.

          20                           Franco Tomei

          21           The other witness who did not agree with some of

          22       this was Mr Tomei.  He was attending the postmortem.  He

          23       gave evidence on 12 November before you (12/11).  He

          24       talked about the wounds.  We know the measurements of

          25       the wound so I do not need to repeat that.


                                            95
 

 

 


           1           He showed us though that the jacket with the bullet

           2       holes marked up and then lined up and he says the top

           3       one in the jacket at CD372, which are the ones we have,

           4       those photographs, is the top arm which caused the arm

           5       wound.

           6           Lower holes show the jacket would have had to be

           7       folded over.  We know very well that a lot of people

           8       have demonstrated that to us, about how the bottom left

           9       hand part of the jacket must have been folded over to

          10       have an entry and exit and then another entry wound

          11       through the jacket before the bullet went into the

          12       chest.

          13           He was the first one to look at the trajectory rod

          14       pictures we have been looking at, accepting that shows

          15       the bullet's path through the body.  He thought the

          16       bullet that was found in the bag, which was RES/1, as we

          17       know, in the taxi was the one that had gone through the

          18       arm.  He said that there was a pattern on that to be

          19       formed of the fabric would have to be a reason.(?)

          20           On the other hand, he said that the bullet then that

          21       was found in the holster, embedded in that, was the one

          22       that had gone into the chest.  That was certainly his

          23       initial view.

          24           He accepts the track of the chest shot is downwards,

          25       but only slightly more than the arm shot.  He did not


                                            96
 

 

 


           1       accept that the angle was sufficient so that the chest

           2       bullet would not have struck W42 in the radio.

           3           He gave evidence as to how the jacket was folded and

           4       he said the pattern on the bullet was such as would need

           5       to go through the t-shirt.

           6           He had his own reservations about the forensic

           7       gelatin test, but it seems to be that that seemed

           8       probably to have come from the fact that, in his days of

           9       experience, the gelatin was made up rather than being

          10       some manufactured form.  So one had some doubts as to

          11       whether it was made at the right temperature and allowed

          12       to cool, and such like, as to whether it really

          13       replicated human flesh.

          14                         Dr Philip Seaman

          15           Finally, Dr Seaman told us that in his report,

          16       C35 -- he gave evidence on 19 and 20 November.  He is a

          17       specialist in the examination of firearms and related

          18       items, including fibre transfer too.

          19           He had looked at the energy of the bullets, the

          20       marks on the bullets, using the ballistic gelatin,

          21       experimenting on throwing the gun and other things.

          22           He said that RES/1 was a mushroom bullet, it weighed

          23       121.5 grains.  The JMA/10, the bullet from the radio,

          24       weighed less, 116.4 grains.  Both would have started at

          25       124 grains, hollow point bullets.  There's thought to be


                                            97
 

 

 


           1       a tiny fragment from the bullet in the chest of

           2       Mark Duggan which could not be recovered in the

           3       postmortem.

           4           He says the patterning on RES/1 correlates with the

           5       stitching to the back of the t-shirt.  He carried out

           6       some tests, in August of this year, using the gelatin

           7       and shooting 49 bullets into it at different depths.

           8           That confirmed to him that the bullet, to pass

           9       through about 30 centimetres of clothed gelatin, it

          10       would not have much energy left on exit to damage the

          11       fabric, holster or the radio.

          12           A bullet going through a much reduced gelatin, as

          13       per the thickness of an arm, did have the energy to

          14       cause the damage to the holster and the radio as found

          15       in JMA/10.

          16           He talked to us about the other tests that he had

          17       had into pork and hitting and nicking the ribs.  He

          18       said, in his experience and expertise, that the bullet

          19       nicking a rib was not significantly deviated.

          20           He also found fibres from RES/1, which seemed to

          21       have come from the t-shirt, in fact 14 fibres on a

          22       bullet, two of which were indistinguishable from the

          23       puffa jacket and eight indistinguishable from the bird

          24       logo on the t-shirt.

          25           All the above led him to the firm conclusion in his


                                            98
 

 

 


           1       mind that the bullet in the taxi was the fatal one that

           2       had been fired through the chest of Mark Duggan and the

           3       bullet in the radio was the one that had gone through

           4       Mark Duggan's arm.

           5           He did tell us a little bit about his throwing

           6       experiments.  I really encourage you not to put too much

           7       weight on that.

           8           You have seen the gun, you have weighed the gun, you

           9       have seen the distance in the view about it.  He came to

          10       the conclusion that he could have thrown the gun from

          11       within the taxi, on leaving the taxi, whilst being on

          12       the pavement; it could be thrown underarm, overarm.

          13       Further tests show the gun could be thrown when outside

          14       standing with a wrist action using the forearm.

          15           So really, the throwing tests are rather limited and

          16       not really tied in with the witness accounts, but there

          17       we are.  He did that and I put that before you for your

          18       consideration.

          19           All right.  That concludes my summary of the expert

          20       evidence in this case.  Thank you for being a little

          21       patient and staying with me a little longer than is

          22       usual at this time.

          23           What will happen now, I do have some further remarks

          24       to give you in summing-up, but not very many at all.

          25       What I really want to do this afternoon is to go through


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           1       the Form 2 again with you, run over the legal directions

           2       that I gave you right at the beginning and then, after

           3       that, it will be your turn to start considering this

           4       matter in the luxury of your jury room this afternoon.

           5           So what I am going to ask you to do, please, members

           6       of the jury, is to leave us now.  Be ready to start at

           7       2.30.  It may be a little bit after that, but 2.30, and

           8       then I will be able to conclude my summing-up.  Thank

           9       you.

          21   (1.14 pm)

          22                     (The short adjournment)

          23   (2.00 pm)


                                           100
 

 

          
          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We will have

          19       the jury in then, please.

          20   (2.48 pm)

          21                  (In the presence of the jury)

          22                      Summing-up (continued)

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          24       jury, I am sorry to have kept you waiting outside court.

          25       There were one or two matters that needed to be tidied

                                           135
 
           1       up.

           2                     Further Legal Directions

           3           What I want us to do finally in these last few

           4       words, is to go back to our Form 2 document which sets

           5       out the way that we should be approaching this.  As

           6       I say, you have lots of copies of this for you to write

           7       on and there will be, in due course, the final one that

           8       you will write on, which will then record your findings

           9       and determinations.

          10           So what you will write on -- no one else is going to

          11       write on this, you are going to write on this, the final

          12       one certainly -- is the record of the Inquest Form 2,

          13       the name of the deceased, if known.  Well, it is known,

          14       that's Mark Wayne Duggan.  There's no difficulties for

          15       that.

          16           The medical cause of death is the gunshot wound to

          17       chest, from Dr Poole.

          18           How, when and where, and for investigations where --

          19       this is what we are doing under section 5(2) of the

          20       Coroners and Justice Act 2009 -- in what circumstances

          21       the deceased came by his or her death?

          22           Then we come to these questions:

          23           "In the period between midday on 3 August and when

          24       state amber was called at 6.00 pm on 4 August 2011 did

          25       the MPS and SOCA do the best they realistically could


                                           136
 

 

 


           1       have done to gather and react to intelligence about the

           2       possibility of Mr Duggan collecting a gun from

           3       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?"

           4           There are the alternatives: yes; if no, tick then,

           5       please, but could I ask you to list what more could have

           6       been expected of them; or you may feel you do not have

           7       enough information to answer either yes or no, then

           8       please then tick that box.

           9           Question number 2:

          10           "Was the stop conducted in a location and in a way

          11       which minimised to the greatest extend possible recourse

          12       to lethal force?"

          13           Either yes or no:

          14           "If no, what more could have been expected of them

          15       [the police]?"

          16           Question 3:

          17           "Did Mr Duggan have the gun with him in the taxi

          18       immediately before the stop?"

          19           That's a straight yes or no, there is not very much

          20       alternative to that.

          21           Question 4:

          22           "How did the gun get to the grass area where it was

          23       later found?"

          24           Now, there is more of a narrative answer being asked

          25       there.  I will come back to wording in a moment.


                                           137
 

 

 


           1           Then we come to question 5:

           2           "When Mr Duggan received the fatal shot did he have

           3       the gun in his hand?"

           4           Now, you are asked not to answer that one directly.

           5       You then go down to whether you answer these three

           6       alternatives:

           7           "If you are sure that he did not have a gun in his

           8       hand then tick the box accordingly and go on to consider

           9       unlawful killing, lawful killing or an open conclusion."

          10           So you then tick that next box saying:

          11           "We are sure that he did not have a gun in his

          12       hand."

          13           The next option is this:

          14           "If you find that it was more likely than not that

          15       he did have a gun in his hand then tick the box

          16       accordingly and then go on to consider either lawful

          17       killing or an open conclusion."

          18           You will see a box there to be ticked:

          19           "We believe it is more likely than not that he did

          20       have a gun in his hand."

          21           Then the third option:

          22           "If you conclude that it is more likely than not

          23       that he did not have a gun in his hand, then tick the

          24       box accordingly and go on to consider lawful killing or

          25       an open conclusion."


                                           138
 

 

 


           1           Right, let me go through these three conclusions

           2       that I set out there.  There are just a few words I want

           3       to add to it to make it absolutely clear in your mind

           4       how to approach this.

           5           Unlawful killing:

           6           "You would have to be sure that the act was

           7       unlawful -- that is that it was not done in lawful

           8       self-defence or defence of another or in order to

           9       prevent crime.  It is not for V53 to prove that he did

          10       act lawfully -- before you conclude his act was unlawful

          11       he must be sure that it was unlawful."

          12           So the burden of proof is on making you sure that

          13       the act was unlawful.  No one has to prove that it was

          14       lawful.

          15           You will know, and this is the direction that is

          16       given in courts up and down the country about what is

          17       self-defence, effectively:

          18           "Any person is entitled to use reasonable force to

          19       defend himself or another from injury, attack or threat

          20       of attack."

          21           So, if you come to the conclusion, as is being

          22       stated by V53, that he may have been defending himself

          23       or one of his colleagues, then go on to consider these

          24       two matters:

          25           "Did V53 honestly believe, or may he honestly have


                                           139
 

 

 


           1       believed ..."

           2           I want you to put in here "even if that belief is

           3       mistaken", would you write that in there:

           4           "Did V53 honestly believe, or may he honestly have

           5       believed, even if that belief is mistaken, that at the

           6       time he fired the fatal shot that he needed to use force

           7       to defend himself or another; if your answer is NO then

           8       he cannot have been acting in lawful self-defence and

           9       you can put [the issue of self-defence] to one side; if

          10       your answer is YES [that he did believe or may have

          11       honestly believed, even if mistaken] then go on to

          12       consider:

          13           "Was the force used -- that fatal shot -- reasonable

          14       in all the circumstances?"

          15           As I have already written out there:

          16           "Obviously if someone is under attack from someone

          17       [or potentially under attack from someone] he genuinely

          18       believes is violent and armed -- then that person cannot

          19       be expected to weigh up precisely the amount of force

          20       needed to prevent that attack.  But if he goes over the

          21       top and acts out of all proportion to the threat then he

          22       would not be using reasonable force and his actions

          23       would be unlawful.

          24           "The question whether degree of force used by V53

          25       was reasonable in the circumstances is to be decided by


                                           140
 

 

 


           1       reference to the circumstances as V53 believed them to

           2       be, again even if mistaken -- but the degree of force is

           3       not to be regarded as reasonable in those circumstances

           4       as V53 believed them to be if it was disproportionate in

           5       those circumstances."

           6           I put in there in brackets, but it's right that you

           7       should know:

           8           "... a police officer may use lawful force to

           9       prevent crime.  Here two points arise:

          10           "Did V53 shoot Mark Duggan in order to prevent

          11       crime; and.

          12           "Was the force reasonable or unreasonable in the

          13       circumstances?"

          14           So then over the page:

          15           "Only if you are sure that Mr Duggan was killed

          16       unlawfully will you come to this conclusion and record

          17       is as such."

          18           The other options:

          19           "Lawful killing.  If you conclude it was more likely

          20       than not that the fatal shot which killed Mark Duggan

          21       was the use of lawful force -- then you would return

          22       a conclusion of lawful killing.

          23           "Open conclusion: An open conclusion should be

          24       recorded where there is insufficient evidence to the

          25       necessary standard of proof for you to record any other


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           1       'substantive' conclusion as to how Mark Duggan came by

           2       his death.

           3           "You may record an open conclusion if:

           4           "You are not satisfied so that you are sure that

           5       Mark Duggan was unlawfully killed; and

           6           "You are not satisfied that it was more likely than

           7       not that Mark Duggan was killed lawfully."

           8           So, as I already said, please only come to these

           9       answers and conclusions having discussed the matters

          10       fully between yourselves and applying my legal

          11       directions as already stated within that paper.

          12           Where you have, and are able to give, longer

          13       answers, more narrative type form answers, please be

          14       careful not to express recommendations or any opinions.

          15       Please use words which are clear and straightforward.

          16           There are certain words which juries are told they

          17       should not use, for example words that would imply

          18       a criminal or civil judgement, such as someone acted

          19       carelessly or recklessly or dangerously or negligently

          20       or foolishly or use words such as "guilt" or "breach of

          21       duty of care".

          22           But you can use words that are talking about an act

          23       or omission which is deficient, defective,

          24       inappropriate, inadequate, unsuitable, insufficient,

          25       lacking, failure, incomplete, erroneous, unreliable


                                           142
 

 

 


           1       impaired, and inexact.  I am not asking you to write all

           2       of those words down, do not worry about it because we

           3       all are aware that what I am saying now is all being

           4       written down.  So those words that I have just read out

           5       you will have available to you and if you do write

           6       a form of narrative answer and it comes through to me

           7       with the words something like "guilt" or something

           8       written on it or "carelessly" or "negligently", I will

           9       have to ask you to reconsider those words, because they

          10       should not be included but that is the position and I am

          11       sure it will not come to that.

          12           Members of the jury, my final remarks to you are

          13       these, please.

          14           You must reach conclusions and findings of fact in

          15       answer to these questions on which all ten of you are

          16       agreed, a unanimous conclusion.  Please also endeavour

          17       to reach your answers and determinations also unanimous.

          18       You would have heard, I know, of jurors in all cases

          19       being able to reach majority conclusions or verdicts.

          20       Please, that will or could arise in your case but please

          21       put that out of your mind and do not anticipate that at

          22       all.  This certainly will not happen this week because

          23       we are obviously not sitting tomorrow.

          24           So the position is please endeavour to see what

          25       unanimity, what you can conclude amongst you all in


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           1       relation to these questions.

           2           Indeed, it is really highlighted because what

           3       conclusions you do reach at the end of that you then

           4       have to sign, unlike what happens at other courts, and

           5       indeed I have to countersign as well.  So it will be

           6       stated there very clearly those and your names of

           7       agreement.  Clearly, as I say, that will be redacted so

           8       your names will not be in the public domain.

           9           Once you come to conclusions and findings, I will

          10       ask you to write those down on that form as directed.

          11       As I have already indicated that will be sent through to

          12       me just to ensure that all is correct.  It is not

          13       a question of me taking any part at all in the

          14       decision-making process, that is obviously not the role

          15       that I have.  But I am available therefore in that way

          16       to assist.

          17           If there are questions of fact that you raise, then

          18       please feel free to do that.  For example, before coming

          19       into court this afternoon, I got a note that some of you

          20       raised the fact that there was to be a larger blow up

          21       photograph of this one (indicates) with the police

          22       officers' faces on it that was taken by

          23       Mr Noble-Thompson.  We have agreed to provide that for

          24       you, and that can be done, because that is all part of

          25       the evidence.  So that will be through to you either


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           1       later on this afternoon or perhaps when you sit again on

           2       Friday.

           3           So it is important that your discussions and

           4       deliberations take place when all ten of you are

           5       together, as you know.

           6           It won't happen probably over the next hour or so

           7       but if any of you do want a break, lunch or, dare I say

           8       it, a smoke or anything like that, then that will happen

           9       without coming back into court and me doing that.  It

          10       happens on the basis that you understand that all

          11       discussions are to take place when ten of you are

          12       together.  If anyone should leave for whatever reason

          13       from your discussions, stop those discussions because it

          14       should all take place when all ten of you are together.

          15       That is the important thing.

          16           It is very important.  I will leave you to the

          17       control of the jury bailiffs who will be looking after

          18       you outside your jury room, if needed.

          19           You will also need to choose, by whatever democratic

          20       or non-democratic means you wish, someone to act as your

          21       foreman but, of course, that person will not have any

          22       more rights or votes or anything like that, but they

          23       will be someone who at the end of your deliberations

          24       will need to sit down there -- I will not make them

          25       stand up too dramatically -- and answer publicly the


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           1       questions.

           2           So I will have a copy of the Form 2 and I will ask

           3       you the first question, "The name of the deceased" and

           4       someone will then have to say "Mark Wayne Duggan", for

           5       example, and that is what has to happen on that form.

           6           The final part of the form is with the date and

           7       place of death, which we know, of course: 4 August 2011,

           8       Ferry Lane, London.  If there is a postal code we will

           9       get that to you so you can fill that in.  The name of

          10       the deceased, sex, date and place of birth we know.

          11       Occupation: I am told that he did have an occupation as

          12       a clothing retailer.  So that will be told to you and

          13       his final and usual address will also be given to you.

          14       I do not actually have it immediately to hand in front

          15       of me, but there is no difficulties about that coming

          16       through to you on a piece of paper through the jury

          17       bailiff to ensure that that is correctly recorded.

          18           So, that will be the position.  That brings me to

          19       the conclusion of my summing-up.  Can I thank you for

          20       being very good, paying attention.  I know it has been

          21       quite a gruelling time listening to me going through the

          22       details.  If I shall be also myself checking through my

          23       transcript of the summing-up over the past day or two

          24       and if I find that there are some factual inaccuracies,

          25       or if any of the members of the bar or legal teams bring


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           1       to my attention a factual inaccuracy which needs to be

           2       corrected, then I will ensure that that is corrected so

           3       that there should not be anything in there which is in

           4       any way misleading.  But I do believe that I think that

           5       I have correctly represented all the evidence that we

           6       have heard over the past 12 or so weeks.

           7           So what I will now ask to happen is that the jury

           8       bailiffs should be sworn and then they will then take

           9       you to your room and you will be able to start your

          10       discussions.

          11           As you know, we no longer send jurors off to hotels

          12       anymore.  Do not be disappointed about that, it was

          13       never very glamorous.  It used to happen many years ago.

          14           What will happen at the end, by 4.30 -- I am not

          15       expecting to hear back from you until 4.30 -- I will ask

          16       you to come back into court and send you away until

          17       Friday morning and be back at 10.30 and we will send you

          18       out to continue on the work at that stage.

          19           Now, I will ask the jury bailiffs to be sworn.

          20                      (Jury bailiffs sworn)

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you both very much.

          22           Right then, members of the jury, if you would like

          23       to take with you all your papers and leave us to your

          24       jury room, please.

          25               (The jury retired to consider their


                                           147
 

 

 


           1                    determinations at 3.07 pm)

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  The jury retired at 3.07.

           3       As I have indicated, if we have not heard anything by

           4       4.30, then I will ask the jury to come back and send

           5       them away until Friday.

           6           Thank you all very much.  I'll rise.

           7   (3.07 pm)

           8                         (A short break)

           9   (4.31 pm)

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We'll have the

          11       cameras off and we will ask the jury to come into court.

          12                  (The jury returned into court)

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Thank you very much, members

          14       of the jury.  I do have, just to add to your notes --

          15       probably do not worry about it now I will tell you when

          16       we come back on Friday, but we do need to know the

          17       address of Mark Wayne Duggan to put at the back of

          18       Form 2.  I will tell that to you on Friday and then you

          19       can take that away with you and put it on the form.

          20           What I want to say to you, firstly because I am

          21       asked to do it by the jury bailiffs, just to reinforce

          22       a direction that we gave earlier, obviously once you are

          23       in retirement, it is very, very important that you

          24       should not use mobile phones within the jury room.

          25       I think you understand the system is that mobile phones


                                           148
 

 

 


           1       when you arrive here or any other similar electronic

           2       equipment is then taken by them.

           3           Obviously when you have your breaks at lunch or

           4       whenever, the mobile phone can be returned to you.  But

           5       it is very, very important.  I know you understand that,

           6       during your retirement, as much as any other time but

           7       more so really, that you realise that it is the ten of

           8       you concentrating on the facts following my directions

           9       and we do not wouldn't want any input from anything

          10       outside, any person or any website or anything of that

          11       nature.  You work on the information and evidence that

          12       you have been given over these past 12 or so weeks.

          13           So what I have to say to you now, I will say it

          14       quite fully but it applies really each time that we

          15       separate -- so if for example you do not reach

          16       conclusions on Friday and I send you away over the

          17       weekend, it will apply then -- clearly you must realise,

          18       firstly, it is even more important than ever not to talk

          19       to anyone else about the case, because you are the ones

          20       now in the process of deciding it; secondly, it is very

          21       important for you not to talk amongst yourselves from

          22       now on until tomorrow morning.  All discussions should

          23       only take place when the ten of you are together now.

          24           So go away from the building, you will be directed

          25       where to go from the building by the jury bailiffs then,


                                           149
 

 

 


           1       please, put the matters to one side in your mind.

           2           The third matter really is, please, this evening, do

           3       no further work on the case.  Obviously it is in

           4       everybody's minds and it will be there, but please just

           5       put it to one side, as much as you can, do whatever else

           6       you were going to do on a Wednesday evening, I am sure

           7       there are lots of other things you have lined up, then

           8       come back refreshed on Friday morning at 10.30.  You

           9       will be brought into court again, the jury bailiffs will

          10       be sworn, in the way you saw them sworn, again and go

          11       back out and pick off where you have left off now.

          12           That's really the warnings and the encouragement

          13       that I want to give you.  So, can I thank you for your

          14       concentration and work today, I will see you then again

          15       on Friday morning at 10.30, please.  All right, thank

          16       you.
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           2   (4.36 pm)

           3        (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Friday,

           4                        13 December 2013)

           5
               Summing-up (continued) ...............................1
           6
               The Shooting (continued) .............................1
           7
                   W70's Account ....................................1
           8
                   W42's Account ....................................4
           9
                   V48's Account ....................................7
          10
                   R68's Account ....................................9
          11
                   W39's Account ...................................11
          12
               Post-Incident .......................................13
          13
                   V53's Account ...................................14
          14
                   ACPO Guidelines .................................15
          15
                   CO19's Accounts .................................16
          16
                   Post-Incident Management ........................22
          17
                   Accounts from Other Officers ....................23
          18
               Civilian Witness Accounts ...........................27
          19
                   The Taxi Driver  ................................27
          20
                   Miss Z ..........................................29
          21
                   Valentine McGuire ...............................30
          22
                   Darren Biggs ....................................30
          23
                   Emil Drzewiecki .................................31
          24
                   Finbar Hanrahan .................................31
          25
                   Miss J ..........................................32

                                           151
 

 


           1
                   Richard Noble-Thompson ..........................34
           2
                   Witness B .......................................37
           3
                   Witness A .......................................42
           4
                   Witness C .......................................43
           5
               Crime Scene Management and ..........................49
           6             Misinformation

           7   The Location and Finding of the Gun .................57

           8       How did the Gun get on the Grass? ...............59

           9       Daughter of Miss J ..............................59

          10       Kieran Ely O'Carroll ............................60

          11       Other Witness Accounts ..........................61

          12       R31's Account ...................................62

          13       Q63's Account ...................................63

          14       Who Found the Gun First? ........................65

          15   Toxicology ..........................................73

          16       Professor Alexander Forrest .....................75

          17   Blood Spatter .......................................76

          18       Andrew Bell .....................................76

          19   Fingerprints  .......................................78

          20       Ian Richards ....................................78

          21       Michael Barber ..................................78

          22       Jacqueline Landais ..............................78

          23   DNA Evidence ........................................79

          24       Saranjeet Khera .................................79

          25       Dr Desmond Vanhinsbergh .........................81


                                           152
 

 


           1   Gunshot Residue .....................................82

           2       Angela Shaw .....................................82

           3       Mark Bowden .....................................84

           4   Fibre Analysis ......................................85

           5       Anna-Marie O'Connor .............................85

           6   Ballistics ..........................................87

           7       Dr Simon Poole ..................................87

           8       Professor Derrick Pounder .......................89

           9       Professor Jonathan Clasper  .....................92

          10       Franco Tomei ....................................95

          11       Dr Philip Seaman ................................97

          12   Submissions by MS LEEK .............................101

          13   Submissions by MR KEITH ............................110

          14   Submissions by MR BUTT .............................117

          15   Submissions by MR STRAW ............................120

          16   Submissions by MR MANSFIELD ........................124

          17   Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................127

          18   Submissions by MR STERN ............................132

          19   Further submissions by MR BUTT .....................134

          20   Summing-up (continued) .............................135

          21   Further Legal Directions ...........................136

        
                                           153