Transcript of the Hearing 4 November 2013

 

           1                                        Monday, 4 November 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Mr Underwood, are we all

           4       ready for the jury?

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  We'll have the jury in

           7       then, please.

           8                  (In the presence of the jury)

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Very good to see you, members of the

          10       jury.  We are all ready now to start.

          11           Mr Underwood, who is going to be the first witness

          12       of the day?

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Patricia Larrigan, please.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So Ms Patricia Larrigan.

          15                   MS PATRICIA LARRIGAN (sworn)

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Come forward

          17       and have a seat, firstly.

          18   A.  Thank you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Make yourself comfortable.  Then

          20       Mr Underwood will start with some nice easy questions.

          21                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Ms Larrigan.  My name's

          23       Underwood, I'm counsel to the Inquest.  I have some

          24       questions for you to start with.

          25   A.  Good morning.


                                             1
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I think, like me, you are quietly spoken.  If you move

           2       that microphone towards you, that amplifies you.  Thank

           3       you very much.  Can you give us your full names, please?

           4   A.  Patricia Marianne (?) Larrigan.

           5   Q.  Were you a Crime Scene Manager in 2011?

           6   A.  Yes, I was.

           7   Q.  Just help us with that: is that a police job or is it

           8       a job attached to the police, if you see what I mean?

           9   A.  All Crime Scene Managers in the Metropolitan Police are

          10       police staff, we are not officers, although we are

          11       employees of the Metropolitan Police.

          12   Q.  How long had you been a Crime Scene Manager by 2011?

          13   A.  In the region of 11 to 12 years by that point.

          14   Q.  I want to ask you first of all about the information

          15       that you got on 4 August about the shooting; do you

          16       follow?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Can we have a look, please, at a log which you kept

          19       starting at -- sorry, the log starts at CD483 in our

          20       numbering.  That will come up on the screen.  The first

          21       page of Crime Scene Manager's case notes log.

          22           Then you see the pages off that which are headed

          23       "Diary of Events"; are they part of that log?

          24   A.  Yes, they are.

          25   Q.  If we can pick it up, please, at our CD484, the entry --


                                             2
 

 

 


           1       the first page of your records, I think.

           2   A.  Yes.  That appears to be the first.

           3   Q.  Is that right, is that the first page?

           4   A.  Yes, that's the first page.

           5   Q.  The first entry is 18.35, is it; could you tell us what

           6       that first entry says, please?

           7   A.  The first entry says "Call from Hayley, SCD4 COO", which

           8       stands for Central Operations Office, and the

           9       information that I was given by Halely was that our

          10       Central Operations Office had received a call from

          11       Stuart (?) Kennedy, who was based within the Specialist

          12       Crime Directorate Reserve and they were requesting

          13       photographic assistance only to an incident in

          14       Ferry Lane at the junction with Reedham Road (sic), N17

          15       and police officer and member of public shot in an

          16       incident.  There was a firearm in situ that required

          17       photography.  Then there's the CAD reference, which is

          18       the police reference to the call, of 8258 and I was

          19       given a contact for an Operation Trident, SCD8, officer.

          20   Q.  Help us with what SCD Reserve is and where they fit in?

          21   A.  SCD Reserve was set up several years ago to act as

          22       a focal point for all requests from around the Met for

          23       specialist crime support.  So it supports requests for

          24       homicide detectives, child abuse investigation

          25       detectives, the Flying Squad, the robbery detectives and


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           1       Operation Trident, SCD8.

           2   Q.  Just pausing there, if I were a Trident officer and

           3       something had happened in the course of an operation

           4       that made me want a Crime Scene Manager, I would ring

           5       SCD Reserve, would I?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  They would then get in touch with you?

           8   A.  They would get in touch with me but that didn't happen

           9       in this particular circumstance.

          10   Q.  Let's move on then to the next entry, 18.45.  Can you

          11       read that one to us, please?

          12   A.  Yes.  I made the call to Stuart Kennedy at SCD Reserve

          13       for more information and I was informed that it was

          14       a spontaneous SCD8 armed operation.

          15           "Suspect shot at and hit by police -- worked on by

          16       HEMS.

          17           "Police officer also shot at not known if hit by

          18       stray police bullet or suspect's bullet -- radio hit --

          19       no serious injuries."

          20           There had been no call for a Crime Scene Manager.

          21       Whoever was at the scene was only requesting

          22       a photographer and then I was given a point of contact

          23       at the scene.

          24   Q.  Did you then, if we look at the next entry follow that

          25       up at 18.55?


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           1   A.  Yes, I did.

           2   Q.  Having been told this was a spontaneous Trident

           3       operation, the suspect shot at police and was hit by

           4       them and another police officer was shot at but not

           5       known if he was hit by a stray bullet or the suspect's

           6       bullet, you then called SCD8, did you?

           7   A.  Yes, I did, or the officer whose contact details I was

           8       given.

           9   Q.  What was your purpose in doing that?  Why did you not

          10       just say "Okay, if we've been asked to provide

          11       a photographer let's just provide a photographer"; did

          12       you not to give more service?

          13   A.  Yes, I did.  I mean, even from those -- the

          14       information -- from those two phonecalls, from the first

          15       phonecall I received from my own staff at our own ops

          16       office, one of the remits of a Crime Scene Manager is to

          17       attend shooting incidents not involving police and

          18       shooting incidents involving police as well, it's part

          19       of our remit.  So Hayley, who was the lady who called me

          20       from the operations office, was making me aware of this

          21       incident because she hadn't been informed that a CSM was

          22       required, which she thought was quite strange and I had

          23       had no direct contact through what you might call the

          24       normal protocol channels, so I took it upon myself to

          25       make further enquiries.


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           1   Q.  Let's look at the 18.55 call, can we?  That's you

           2       calling a person whose name is blanked out at SCD8;

           3       what's the information you were given there?

           4   A.  The information I was given there was one casualty,

           5       a potential suspect, firearm being held by him is

           6       covered by a bag and a "pizza" box -- and "pizza" is in

           7       quotation marks because we normally refer to our own Met

           8       packaging as "pizza boxes" because of the shape they

           9       are -- there was a smashed up car and it was the target

          10       of a hard stop.  It was a covert follow and hard stop by

          11       CO19, firearms officers, and north-west Trident, LAS

          12       were called.

          13   Q.  London Ambulance Service?

          14   A.  London Ambulance Service.  Whoever had been taken to

          15       hospital, it wasn't known at that time -- or the officer

          16       didn't know which hospital anybody had been taken to and

          17       it wasn't known, or he didn't know, if the suspect had

          18       fired.

          19   Q.  This then contradicted what you had been told about the

          20       suspect having shot at the police?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Right.

          23   A.  He informed me that DPS, Professional Standards, had

          24       been called and it was likely to be a police discharge

          25       of weapon as well, I think that says.


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           1           There was no information about any ballistic

           2       material.  There was lots of police activity, so any

           3       casings, discharged casings, and bullets could be

           4       anywhere.  I was informed that his superiors were also

           5       aware of the incident and were attending the scene as

           6       well.

           7   Q.  There's no mystery about who the officer is that you

           8       spoke to, we think it's ZZ75; can you remember?

           9   A.  Sorry?

          10   Q.  We think it was ZZ75, the Trident officer you spoke to,

          11       can you recall?

          12   A.  Well, I was given a name, yes.  I'm not totally familiar

          13       about --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If there are any problems about that

          15       she can always see the list of names but there probably

          16       isn't.

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Exactly, we will come back to that if

          18       necessary.  If we go over the page -- sorry, there's

          19       another call back to SCD Reserve, 19.15 --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- which just, I think, deals with names, does it not?

          22   A.  Well, it does.  I think by the time I had received all

          23       of this information I felt there was an obvious need for

          24       a Crime Scene Manager to attend and the fact that

          25       whoever had been trying to organise perhaps some sort of


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           1       forensic response had only requested photographic

           2       assistance, I didn't feel that was sufficient for this

           3       type of incident.

           4   Q.  So was one of the names you got there the Detective

           5       Inspector from DPS who was the biggest chief, as it

           6       were, Mr Suggett?

           7   A.  Yes it was, yes.

           8   Q.  If we go over the page then, at 19.20, do we see

           9       a record of a phonecall from you to him?

          10   A.  Yes, there is, yes.

          11   Q.  What does that read, please?

          12   A.  Right, I received some more information from him, that

          13       the operation was a hard stop by Trident and armed

          14       officers; the suspect fired first at police and

          15       an officer had been hit in the radio, was suffering from

          16       blunt trauma injuries, they weren't fatal and he had

          17       been taken to Homerton Hospital; police returned fire

          18       and shoot and kill -- and that is a question mark

          19       because --

          20   Q.  What's the question mark to: is it that the police

          21       returned fire or that they shot or that they killed him?

          22   A.  At that time I didn't know whether anybody had died at

          23       the scene.

          24   Q.  Right.  There's no question mark against the police

          25       returning fire, is there?


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           1   A.  No, there doesn't appear to be.  I think it's really

           2       around whether there was any fatalities.

           3   Q.  You got somebody going off to Homerton Hospital but you

           4       have no confirmation that anyone was dead?

           5   A.  No, that's right.

           6   Q.  Please go on.

           7   A.  Then it says suspect still at the scene but no details

           8       and that means no details about him as a person, at that

           9       time.

          10           I asked DI Suggett to confirm the victim/suspect has

          11       died and their current location and, if they were still

          12       at the scene, could they erect a scene tent over the

          13       deceased as soon as possible.  Then I was told two

          14       Professional Standards exhibits officers were being

          15       deployed, Kevin Ryan and Nik Jetwa (?).

          16   Q.  You were told that, even though Crime Scene Managers had

          17       only been asked to go and photograph the scene, two

          18       exhibit officers were being deployed; is that right?

          19   A.  Yes, there was no direct request to me at any point for

          20       my services, it's just through what I believed to be the

          21       conscientious nature of staff in operations offices

          22       notifying me of a scene that they felt I ought to have

          23       been made aware of.

          24   Q.  We are all new to how these things are done.  Where do

          25       exhibit officers fit into the regime of crime scene


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           1       management?

           2   A.  They are responsible for either personally recovering

           3       exhibits from a crime scene, as and when they are

           4       identified as relevant; collecting exhibits that have

           5       been taken by other officers that might be at other

           6       stations or other police premises; and basically

           7       gathering all the exhibits in relation to a case in one

           8       place properly recorded and then ensuring that they are

           9       available for the judicial process, whatever process

          10       that might be, whether it's a criminal process or, in

          11       this case, an Inquest process.

          12   Q.  Who directs them?

          13   A.  Well, once we've done the scene examinations, or scene

          14       assessments, and actually physically seen what is

          15       present at a scene that would be relevant to a case and

          16       would need to be collected -- it's normally a staged

          17       process, so say that you've got some items that are

          18       immediately relevant to an incident, and in this case

          19       there was a firearm present and there could have been

          20       either ballistic material there and other items that may

          21       have become obvious later on.

          22           Everybody is involved in the process of looking,

          23       seeing.  What might be forensically relevant would be

          24       forensically relevant, but there might be other exhibits

          25       there that are not relevant to the forensic inquiry but


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           1       might be relevant to other parts of the inquiry that

           2       an Exhibits Officer would be responsible for collecting,

           3       and they may well be directed by their own senior

           4       officers or their own information about the case as to

           5       what they might need to recover.

           6           So the Exhibits Officer is responsible for exhibits

           7       coming from a lot of different strands of an inquiry,

           8       whether it be a forensic strand, an intelligence strand,

           9       an inquiry strand or just items at the scene that we

          10       don't know the provenance of that we might need later

          11       on.

          12   Q.  Is it normal to have exhibit officers doing that without

          13       a Crime Scene Manager there?

          14   A.  In some circumstances, yes, it is.

          15   Q.  If we go further down the page, still under the 19.20,

          16       before you get to the next 20.54 entry there's a call

          17       from DI Suggett:

          18           "Info received, body in situ at scene."

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Is that your first confirmation that in fact somebody

          21       has been killed?

          22   A.  It is, yes.

          23   Q.  By that stage, were you on the case as far as you were

          24       concerned?

          25   A.  Well, up until that point, I was desperately trying to


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           1       find out the nature of the inquiry to make myself aware

           2       of what I may be dealing with when I actually got there.

           3       Obviously, one of the things I really needed to know was

           4       has anybody lost their lives during this incident and

           5       once I found that out -- I would have probably attended

           6       the scene even if, you know, Mr Duggan had been injured,

           7       but I needed to find out what exactly had happened at

           8       that scene.

           9   Q.  By that stage, just recap, Superintendent Kennedy -- it

          10       is Superintendent, is it?

          11   A.  No, it's not.

          12   Q.  Stuart Kennedy, I don't know what his rank is.  Stuart

          13       Kennedy of SCD8 Reserve had told you the suspect had

          14       shot at the police --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- DI Suggett had told you that the suspect fired at

          17       police and the police returned fire --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- but the person who we think is ZZ75 had told you that

          20       he didn't know if the suspect had fired; is that the

          21       situation?

          22   A.  That's right, yes.

          23   Q.  If we go down to 20.54 on page CD485, you attend the

          24       scene to the cordon, do you?

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  You met Stuart Cundy, the Detective Chief Superintendent

           2       from Trident?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  What did he tell you?

           5   A.  He told me the gunman gets out of the rear of a car,

           6       minicab, and again a query, because I wasn't sure of --

           7       you know if that information was correct, so was it

           8       a minicab, just query that.

           9   Q.  At this stage you are at the outer cordon, so a fair

          10       distance from the action?

          11   A.  That's right.  The cab driver had no injuries and was

          12       not thought to be involved.

          13   Q.  If we go over the page, still on that entry.

          14   A.  And it was an Operation Trident pro-active planned stop;

          15       HEMS attended and the fact that there's life extinct to

          16       be confirmed would indicate there was a fatality, but we

          17       didn't know exactly when it was declared; it was not

          18       known if the suspects had fired any shots.

          19   Q.  You have "suspects" plural there, have you?

          20   A.  Yes, I wasn't entirely sure.  It might just have been

          21       the way I wrote it down, I cannot really comment on that

          22       I'm afraid.  One officer was hit, and then that is my

          23       question "by whom?"

          24   Q.  Presumably Detective Chief Superintendent Cundy couldn't

          25       tell you?


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           1   A.  No.

           2   Q.  How does it go on?

           3   A.  The quotation "A number of shots fired" is what was

           4       relayed to me by Mr Cundy and it was to be confirmed how

           5       many and he provided me the name of the deceased,

           6       Mr Mark Duggan.

           7   Q.  Then very briefly, if I can just look at the rest of the

           8       page there, some DPS officers attend and we have the

           9       names, and then you write a number of points, 11 points,

          10       about things you have observed before you go through the

          11       inner cordon, is that right?  So, for example, you set

          12       out what vehicles were at the scene; you want to

          13       establish if the officer's radio is still at the scene,

          14       number 2; number 3, that the injured officer has now

          15       been discharged; number 4, it's believed that police

          16       fired two shots; number 5, how many people were in the

          17       minicab.  Then you've got -- what is number 6, "local TP

          18       issues"?

          19   A.  Yes, that's the local issues for the local policing team

          20       on Haringey, regarding sort of the movements of

          21       residents wanting to get in and out, to get home,

          22       leave --

          23   Q.  That's your provisional work.  Then you go through the

          24       inner cordon, do you, at 22.23?

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  If we look over our CD487, your next page, you then have

           2       an initial scene assessment, do you?

           3   A.  Yes.  That's basically wearing full barrier clothing,

           4       just to get an idea of what was present at the scene.

           5       It's an overview and from that overview then you can

           6       make more informed sort of ideas about perhaps what

           7       needs to be done next.

           8   Q.  Right.  If we look at our CD488, your next page, you

           9       have a discussion with Chris Mehaffey from the IPCC and

          10       DI Suggett and Chief Inspector Dowe, is that?

          11   A.  That's right, yes.

          12   Q.  Then you set out a number of issues there?

          13   A.  Yes, I have informed them of what my preliminary sort of

          14       scene overview was, to make them aware of how the scene

          15       was laying out, what was present.  So I gave them that

          16       information and then I raised a couple of issues based

          17       on what my observations were.

          18   Q.  Let's just take an impression, if we may.  Once you have

          19       gone through the inner cordon and you had had

          20       conflicting information about who had fired first, how

          21       the officer was shot, precisely how many rounds had been

          22       fired by police, what was your objective?

          23   A.  Well, the objective in this particular case -- bearing

          24       in mind I deal with a wide range of what you might call

          25       fatal incidents -- but in this particular case --


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           1       because there was a police sort of discharge of

           2       firearms -- would be to try and establish a sequence,

           3       potentially if you can, obviously, a sequence of events

           4       of, you know, how this happened, what was actually

           5       involved in the incident and, you know, would what the

           6       scene told us sort of be consistent with witness

           7       statements or other statements and what information

           8       could come out of other statements later on.

           9   Q.  Were you given access to any witnesses?

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  Would that have been helpful?

          12   A.  Yes, it would have been helpful but it is not uncommon

          13       for -- in other fatal incidents, whether they involve

          14       the police or, you know, other murder enquiries, it is

          15       absolutely usual for there to be either very few or no

          16       officers present at the scene during a Crime Scene

          17       Manager's initial attendance, who has any in-depth

          18       knowledge of what went on before the Crime Scene Manager

          19       arrived.

          20   Q.  Did you know whether the minicab driver was still there

          21       or not?

          22   A.  No, I didn't.

          23   Q.  Did you know how far the gun was from where Mr Duggan's

          24       body was?

          25   A.  I can't recall whether I noted it on any of the


                                            16
 

 

 


           1       information I was given but certainly when I walked

           2       through to the scene myself to see what was there, it

           3       wasn't near -- what I would call next to the body or

           4       within a few feet of the body, it was some considerable

           5       distance away.

           6   Q.  What were your thoughts about how it got there?

           7   A.  It was unusual.  I mean, obviously, there was a gun

           8       present at the scene, I was present at a firearms

           9       incident and the assumption possibly made by people

          10       before me was that that gun was connected to the

          11       incident.  I couldn't make that assumption.  I had

          12       a firearms incident and a gun was present but it was not

          13       right in the middle of what you might call the primary

          14       action of that scene, so there could always be the

          15       possibility that that gun wasn't involved in this

          16       incident.

          17   Q.  Did you consider and discuss how it might have got there

          18       if it was related to the incident?

          19   A.  I certainly considered a number of options, sort of

          20       based on a number of scenarios, as to, if it was being

          21       held at the time of the incident and it was physically

          22       in somebody's hand, that that be in Mr Duggan's hand,

          23       how did it come to be where it was, could that have been

          24       by a throwing action, if it was on the floor, could it

          25       have been by a kicking action and were those actions


                                            17
 

 

 


           1       conscious or unconscious?

           2   Q.  Were these, as it were, logical possibilities, as far as

           3       you were concerned, or were they as a result of somebody

           4       making suggestions to you?

           5   A.  No, they were my own observations.  I mean, you know,

           6       you had a deceased person, you had a firearms incident

           7       and you had a gun which was not immediately with the

           8       body, if it was connected to the incident at all.

           9   Q.  Did you actually handle the gun yourself or take the

          10       coverings off it?

          11   A.  No, that was done by others but I was present.

          12   Q.  When the gun was taken from the scene, was the position

          13       of it marked on the grass?

          14   A.  The position of it wasn't marked in respect of putting

          15       a small marker down.  When I got to the scene, there

          16       were two scene tents had been erected, one over the body

          17       of Mr Duggan and one over the gun.  Although it's not

          18       reflected in my notes, and I do appreciate that, my

          19       thinking at the time was, because of the layout of the

          20       scene and the fact that you had quite a steeply sloping

          21       verge that dipped away from the pavement, that a small

          22       marker marking the position of the gun might not

          23       actually be visible in the photographs if the tent

          24       hadn't been there.  So I used the two tents as the

          25       markers to reflect the relevance -- or position of


                                            18
 

 

 


           1       Mr Duggan and the gun.

           2   Q.  To jump ahead for a moment, we know that a later scan

           3       was done and that, on the laser scan, or at least on the

           4       drawing that emerges from the laser scan we have the

           5       plant pot?

           6   A.  Sorry, there was the plant pot there.

           7   Q.  Was the plant pot put back where it had been covering

           8       the plastic which was over the gun?

           9   A.  When the recovery of the gun was done, there was very

          10       limited movement of anything within there, so things

          11       would have been moved slightly to one side in order to

          12       affect the sort of access to the gun but it wouldn't

          13       have been taken -- it wasn't taken out of the tent it

          14       wasn't moved elsewhere.  It would have been moved

          15       a couple of feet at best, it wouldn't have been

          16       significantly moved out of position.

          17   Q.  When we see the plant pot on the drawing and we can look

          18       at it if we need to, would it be realistic to say that

          19       the original position of the plant pot was within

          20       a radius of a couple of feet of where we see it?

          21   A.  Yes, yes.

          22   Q.  So you set a preliminary forensic strategy, I think, of

          23       establishing the sequence of events, establishing the

          24       cause of death, establishing the nature of the injuries

          25       to the police officer and establishing if the weapon --


                                            19
 

 

 


           1       that weapon that we are talking about was in fact the

           2       lethal one and whether it had been discharged; is that

           3       fair?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  I don't mean to diminish it by saying whether that's

           6       standard stuff but was that a fairly standard form

           7       response by you?

           8   A.  Yes, there's certain what you might call strategies

           9       which are common to a whole range of different enquiries

          10       and, if we have a fatality, establishing a cause of

          11       death is always one of them.  If you have a firearm

          12       present at a scene or being used, establishing what type

          13       of weapon it is, had it been discharged.  So although

          14       they sound slightly formulaic, it's because we go to

          15       a number of incidents and those are terms that I would

          16       regularly use, built up over experience over time.

          17   Q.  In aid of that, you made some deployments, didn't you,

          18       so still photography at the scene?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  360-degree imagery of the scene?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  A forensic make safe of the weapon?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Assessment of the that weapon?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            20
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Then recovery of it from the scene?

           2   A.  That's correct.

           3   Q.  Whose idea was the laser scan?

           4   A.  I can't recall exactly but it was certainly something

           5       that was mentioned to me, it might have been by

           6       Mr Suggett, but that was certainly an early deployment

           7       that was wanted, that was needed and it was arranged.

           8   Q.  Right.  Did you ask for further forensic personnel to

           9       attend?

          10   A.  Certainly on handover and certainly in respect of -- to

          11       make the gun safe and to -- for a forensic expert --

          12       ballistics expert to look at the firearm at the scene.

          13   Q.  Did you eventually do a handover to Mr Cockram who took

          14       your role?

          15   A.  Yes, I did.

          16   Q.  At that stage, there was still photography outstanding,

          17       I think; is that right?

          18   A.  There was a lot of tasks outstanding because, I think

          19       reflected in my notes, the IPCC, who were present at the

          20       scene, requested that they wished the gun to be dealt

          21       with first and recorded to see if it was actually

          22       connected to the incident and had been fired.  So there

          23       was quite a long list of things still to do.

          24   Q.  What sort of time did you go off duty and Mr Cockram

          25       take your place?


                                            21
 

 

 


           1   A.  It was in the region of midnight, I haven't got the

           2       exact time but I think it's reflected.

           3   Q.  By that stage, had you resolved in your own mind whether

           4       Mr Duggan had fired first?

           5   A.  No, absolutely not.

           6   Q.  Had you resolved in your own mind how many police rounds

           7       had been fired?

           8   A.  Not while I was at the scene.  I believe that various

           9       aspects of that were still being conducted and I wasn't

          10       aware of what the countback was.

          11   Q.  Had you resolved, to your satisfaction, who had shot the

          12       police officer?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  Now, we know a number of things with the benefit of

          15       hindsight that have turned out to have some significance

          16       to do with the minicab.  One of them is that there was

          17       a box in it which is said to have contained a gun handed

          18       over to Mr Duggan earlier that evening.  Did anybody

          19       tell you about that box or a handover of a gun?

          20   A.  No.  There was no mention of any specific items within

          21       the minicab at that time.  All I was aware of, that

          22       there was a minicab present and it was involved in the

          23       incident.  Its relevance I didn't know and it would

          24       certainly have been part of the ongoing forensic

          25       management, you know, once I had completed my tasks in


                                            22
 

 

 


           1       relation to the gun.

           2   Q.  In the absence of getting a history from any eyewitness,

           3       did it follow then that everything in the minicab was

           4       likely to be a relevant item?

           5   A.  At that time, you know, as these things slowly unfold,

           6       there was no specific information about anything

           7       relevant in the minicab, but it was still part of a live

           8       and active crime scene so there was the potential there,

           9       yes, for the minicab to become relevant in a wider

          10       context as more information was known.

          11           I mean, it's normal for jobs, you know, this one in

          12       particular, and other homicide inquiries that I get

          13       involved in, that you can't sort of go too fast with

          14       them sometimes, without really knowing why you're doing

          15       something and what you're doing it for.  That's not to

          16       say that things don't get done but, as things unfold,

          17       the IPCC's priority for me was to deal with the gun and

          18       when Mr Cockram attended, he was -- I sort of conveyed

          19       to him that there was still a significant amount of work

          20       to do and that would involve the whole crime scene, not

          21       just any specific part of it.

          22   Q.  Let me just press you on this.  Take that particular

          23       crime scene where all these unknowns that we have

          24       discussed about who fired, who shot whom, and how many

          25       shots had been fired, and you not having had a history


                                            23
 

 

 


           1       from any witness; would everything in the minicab be

           2       treated with care unless and until somebody said "That's

           3       irrelevant"?

           4   A.  Well, exactly.  It should have -- it would remain in the

           5       crime scene for work to carry on around it and possibly

           6       eventually work to be carried on in it and then, you

           7       know, whether it's at the scene or away from the scene.

           8           While the scene was under my management, nothing

           9       else was going to be removed from that scene, unless it

          10       had been identified as a relevant exhibit and had gone

          11       through the process of being recorded and collected.

          12   Q.  We know the box wasn't regarded as significant at all,

          13       it was moved around, moved into the boot, moved after

          14       that, who knows by whom, in what circumstances and with

          15       what protective measures; can you explain that?

          16   A.  I only became aware of these issues quite a long time

          17       after my involvement.  I don't know what happened --

          18       well, I know what happened when I handed over to

          19       Mr Cockram because I gave him a personal briefing at the

          20       scene and he conducted his work.  Beyond that point,

          21       when Mr Cockram had finished, I had very little

          22       knowledge about how the arrangement and the scene

          23       management of that scene took place.

          24   Q.  Right.  We also know that when the POLSA team turned up

          25       on the next day they moved the seats around in the


                                            24
 

 

 


           1       minicab without telling anybody who was involved in the

           2       blood spatter analysis, so when the blood spatter expert

           3       came to examine the interior of the car, he didn't know

           4       he was looking at the wrong seats; can you explain how

           5       that came about?

           6   A.  I can only assume that there was some breakdown in

           7       communication somewhere on that morning around what were

           8       the requirements still to do at the scene, who was

           9       responsible for doing them and what arrangements had

          10       been made to do them.

          11           This particular case, I was quite comfortable from

          12       an early stage that it would be an IPCC-led inquiry and

          13       it becomes quite difficult -- not difficult for us but

          14       we are employees of the Metropolitan Police and

          15       I attended the scene in a professional capacity to do

          16       the job I'm paid to do, knowing that the IPCC were going

          17       to be involved.  The IPCC don't have their own access to

          18       the type of resources and facilities that the MPS or

          19       other police forces have, so they have to rely on

          20       somebody to do the scene management, forensic

          21       photography, exhibit retrieval, on their behalf.

          22           Now, I can't answer for the IPCC but I suppose

          23       under -- in some respects, they might decide that they

          24       are not obliged to use employees of the Metropolitan

          25       Police if they felt it was some sort of conflict of


                                            25
 

 

 


           1       interest, bearing in mind --

           2   Q.  Do you know this or are you speculating?

           3   A.  I'm speculating.  As I say, I cannot be absolutely

           4       certain but I attended the scene in my capacity,

           5       I liaised with them, whether or not they would want to

           6       go away and make a decision later on about whether they

           7       wanted to continue to use the MPS or whether they wanted

           8       to call in another force.

           9   Q.  They didn't call in another force, did they?

          10   A.  Not to my knowledge, no.

          11   Q.  All this happened while Mr Cockram was Crime Scene

          12       Manager, didn't it: the moving of the seats, the moving

          13       of the box?

          14   A.  I don't know, you would have to ask Mr Cockram how that

          15       panned out for him.

          16   Q.  You don't know how that happened?

          17   A.  I've absolutely no idea what happened after I left the

          18       scene.  I gave Mr Cockram a to-do list which I discussed

          19       with him personally.  How he approached the handover the

          20       following morning, I don't know.  You would have to ask

          21       him.

          22   Q.  Now, when you left, did Mr Duggan's body still remain in

          23       the tent?

          24   A.  Yes, it was still under the scene tent at the scene.

          25   Q.  If it had been removed while you were there, would you


                                            26
 

 

 


           1       have expected some marker to show where it had been?

           2   A.  In what respect?

           3   Q.  Would you have expected the body to be marked in its

           4       place on the pavement?

           5   A.  No, not necessarily.  It's not something we would

           6       necessarily do in death scenes, even for other cases,

           7       because there should have been, you know, scene

           8       photography which would show the position of the body,

           9       and it might not even be the original position of the

          10       body.

          11   Q.  Can I ask you about blood stains.  Did you have any

          12       interest in what blood staining there may be or blood

          13       spatter there may be at the scene?

          14   A.  I was -- as I have said earlier, I was primarily focused

          15       on the retrieval of the gun.  What was going to be

          16       relevant later on -- this scene was panning out as being

          17       a sort of staged approach.

          18           I was asked to deal with the gun, which was dealt

          19       with under my sort of management, but obviously there

          20       was issues after that that needed to be dealt with in

          21       relation to the deceased.  Whether or not blood pattern

          22       analysis was going to be an issue, I don't know at what

          23       point that became an issue in this inquiry because it

          24       was -- there was so little information to work on that,

          25       you know, some of these things might have become


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       relevant later on to deal with.  But it certainly wasn't

           2       something that was sort of top of my consciousness.

           3   Q.  Would it be fair to say that it was potential but it

           4       hadn't emerged at the time you left?

           5   A.  Yes, it was potential but it had not emerged.

           6   Q.  What about the jacket Mr Duggan had been wearing?  Was

           7       that something which had potential as well, in terms of

           8       bullet holes in it, what was in the pockets, and so on?

           9   A.  I -- although I did a visual walk through the scene,

          10       because it was a firearms incident, I deliberately

          11       didn't start coming into contact with too many parts of

          12       the scene for the reason of potential transference of

          13       firearms discharge residue.  It was a firearms scene at

          14       the time I was there.

          15           I was aware that police shots had been fired but

          16       there was still a question mark over whether anybody

          17       else had fired a gun.  Firearms discharge residue is

          18       very, very sensitive evidence and can easily have been

          19       transferred and in this particular incident I felt that,

          20       if I was to willingly transfer gunshot residue around

          21       the scene, it would -- could give a totally misleading

          22       inquiry.

          23           So, although I knew Mr Duggan's body was under the

          24       tent and I had a very, very brief visual look at him

          25       from a few feet away, you know, no contact with him,


                                            28
 

 

 


           1       just to see he was there, what type of medical treatment

           2       he may have had, I didn't go particularly close and the

           3       only time I really came into contact or saw more closely

           4       Mr Duggan's body and the clothing was at the postmortem

           5       examination the next day.

           6   Q.  To go back to the jacket: was the state of the jacket

           7       and what was in the pockets something, again, of

           8       potential importance but not actual importance by the

           9       time you left?

          10   A.  It would have been important and it certainly would have

          11       been part of the forensic recovery procedure when the

          12       body was removed.

          13   Q.  There is only one other thing I want to ask you about.

          14       Some question arose as to whether you had done what is

          15       called a flash search of the interior of the minicab; do

          16       you know what that means?

          17   A.  Yes, I do.

          18   Q.  Just a quick look round presumably?

          19   A.  Yes, basically, yes.

          20   Q.  Did you do it?

          21   A.  I didn't do it but anyone could have done that at any

          22       time.  It's not unusual to be informed that a flash

          23       search has taken place of a particular area or scene in

          24       other circumstances.  If a search had been done prior to

          25       my arrival, I would have hoped I would have been


                                            29
 

 

 


           1       informed on that.  I didn't specifically ask that

           2       question and I have no specific information that it had

           3       or hadn't been done.

           4   Q.  Sorry, there's one other matter I should have asked you

           5       about.  We know there was a loose fitting carpet in the

           6       passenger area of the minicab.  At some point,

           7       apparently during the POLSA search, it was rolled up and

           8       put in the boot before blood tests were done and without

           9       the blood analysis expert being told of it.  Again, did

          10       something go wrong there?

          11   A.  It sounds as though there was a definite breakdown in

          12       communication about what needed to be done in the

          13       minicab, yes, I'm perfectly happy to accept that.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well, thank you very much, if you wait

          15       there, please.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?

          17                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          18   MR MANSFIELD:  Good morning.  I represent the family of Mark

          19       Duggan.

          20   A.  Good morning.

          21   Q.  Good morning.  I just want to take you back to the

          22       beginning, as it were, and you are informed of matters

          23       on the phone before you actually arrive there.  So there

          24       are two stages, the stage when you are not there and the

          25       stage after which you've arrived.  So those two stages,


                                            30
 

 

 


           1       all right, that's how I want to split it up.

           2           Now, in terms -- so the jury have the time -- you

           3       arrive roughly 20.54; that's when you get to the scene?

           4   A.  That's when I physically get there, yes.

           5   Q.  We are dealing now, first of all, with the period

           6       between you being informed, at 18 -- in other words

           7       6.35 -- you don't actually get to the scene for over two

           8       hours; is that right?

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  Yes.  In that period, there is a crime scene plainly,

          11       isn't there?

          12   A.  Oh, absolutely, yes.

          13   Q.  Who's in charge of the crime scene during that two-hour

          14       period?

          15   A.  That could be any number of officers.

          16   Q.  Yes, sorry, who was?

          17   A.  I have absolutely no idea, sir.

          18   Q.  Why not?

          19   A.  As I said, it could be any number of officers.  There

          20       were obviously a lot of officers from different

          21       departments attending --

          22   Q.  Sorry to interrupt, just to speed it up a little bit,

          23       why did you not find out when you were first informed --

          24       I appreciate you weren't asked to go at that point --

          25       but why didn't you find out early on who's in charge of


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       the scene?

           2   A.  As far as being in charge of the scene, I was happy to

           3       speak to the Professional Standards Inspector,

           4       Mr Suggett, who seemed to be the person who had the most

           5       relevant information to give me.

           6   Q.  Yes.  I'm sorry, it still doesn't quite answer the

           7       question.  You may have been happy -- perhaps we should

           8       just go through so the jury know.  There are a number of

           9       possibilities, as I have no doubt you were about to say:

          10       there are Tactical Firearms Commanders or Commander, he

          11       claims he was in charge.  We also have a Trident senior

          12       officer who says that, to some extent, he was in charge.

          13       Then there's the IPCC, then there's the DPS.  So there

          14       are a number of possibilities at a scene like this.  So

          15       it is quite important to find out early on which of

          16       these many possibilities is actually in charge; would

          17       you agree?

          18   A.  I absolutely agree, sir, I can see your issue there.

          19   Q.  I'm sorry to say, it's not my issue but your issue.

          20       I would like you to please explain why at no stage do

          21       you seem to have been -- other than just happy to talk

          22       to Mr Suggett, did you find out who actually, on the

          23       ground, was in charge.

          24   A.  No, I didn't.

          25   Q.  All right.


                                            32
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No one came to you to hand over it,

           2       hand the scene over to you?

           3   A.  No.  There was -- until my arrival for the sort of

           4       forensic management, nobody came to me direct at all.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In a way you handed over to

           6       Mr Cockram about midnight and said "This is now yours",

           7       no one did the same to you?

           8   A.  No.

           9   MR MANSFIELD:  Unless there's someone clearly at the scene

          10       in charge, there is a risk that the crime scene gets

          11       contaminated, interfered with and so on; that's the

          12       risk, isn't it?

          13   A.  Oh, absolutely.  It certainly is, yes.

          14   Q.  Right.  Well, now, plainly, as I think you have already

          15       indicated, it is important for you going there, as

          16       a manager, to have as much information about what

          17       appears to have happened as you can.

          18   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          19   Q.  You see, the people who were there are saying now that

          20       it was very clear that Duggan didn't fire any shots and

          21       there were only two police shots.  Can you explain why

          22       you weren't told that or you didn't discover it?

          23       I mean, you seem to -- quite a long period you didn't

          24       know how many shots were fired or whether Duggan had

          25       fired.


                                            33
 

 

 


           1   A.  Well, that was a question I asked.  I asked before

           2       I arrived at the scene as to what had happened, I also

           3       asked when I arrived at the scene, but I was -- nobody

           4       could ever seem to give me the answer and I was

           5       obviously present at the scene at that stage with quite

           6       a number of different officers from different

           7       departments.

           8   Q.  So you spoke to a very senior officer in relation to the

           9       operation itself, that's Mr Cundy?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  He couldn't reassure you either about these matters?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  So you didn't have the precise information given to you

          14       by anyone and you come across what you have agreed -- or

          15       you have indicated -- is a rather unusual situation,

          16       that the firearm isn't approximate to the scene itself,

          17       in other words it's not in the immediate vicinity of

          18       where the person who's been shot dead is lying?

          19   A.  No, that's correct.

          20   Q.  Now, that gives rise to a number of possibilities, as

          21       you were contemplating at the time.

          22   A.  Yes, it did.

          23   Q.  These need to be resolved as early as possible,

          24       otherwise it becomes too late to replay it all, doesn't

          25       it?


                                            34
 

 

 


           1   A.  It does, yes.

           2   Q.  So first of all, was there anybody from Trident, that is

           3       the people who had organised the operation, still

           4       present while you were at the scene?

           5   A.  I don't believe there were, no.

           6   Q.  But that does not preclude you from making calls to find

           7       out from Trident or Trident officers or CO19 what it is

           8       suggested had happened?

           9   A.  No, that's right, and I did that.

          10   Q.  So the phonecalls that you made to either Trident or

          11       CO19 -- I'll split them up -- did you speak to anyone

          12       from CO19?

          13   A.  Only Chief Inspector Dowe, who was at the scene and

          14       their point of contact and I believe, although I have

          15       not got my notes in front of me, that I asked him

          16       several questions about this and nobody seemed to be

          17       able to have the answers.  People had been removed from

          18       the scene and they weren't accessible at that time.

          19   Q.  Well, that must have been a bit troubling for you?

          20   A.  Certainly, these -- because I was asking these

          21       questions, yes, they were foremost in my mind, yes, it

          22       would have been very, very helpful to have that

          23       information, but at that time I had no idea if and when

          24       that information was going to be provided.

          25   Q.  So were you asking whether, first of all -- the precise


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       questions about the number of shots, yes --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- whether Duggan had fired at all --

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  -- and whether anybody had seen a gun, as it were,

           6       thrown over a fence, kicked through a fence or placed

           7       over a fence?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  You asked those questions?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Nobody could give you any answers?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  No.  In terms of where the gun ended up, where you saw

          14       it on the grass, you've explained why you didn't put

          15       a marker there, but of course there are different sized

          16       markers you can place at a scene, aren't there?

          17   A.  There are, yes.

          18   Q.  Some of them can be very visible on photographs, can't

          19       they?

          20   A.  Some of them can, yes.

          21   Q.  Did you think of putting any of the visible ones down?

          22   A.  The markers I normally carry are actually relatively

          23       small and, as I said, I didn't feel that it would

          24       give -- it might get lost it might not have been

          25       accurately reflected, we'll never know that because,


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       I admit, I didn't do that and I decided to use the tents

           2       that were big and visible in order to be shown.

           3   Q.  Big and visible though they are, it may be important, in

           4       terms of angles and so on, to know precisely where it

           5       landed or apparently landed or ended up?

           6   A.  No, I accept that, yes.

           7   Q.  Did you have -- you know parking cones, do you?

           8   A.  Yes, I do.

           9   Q.  Were there any of those around, there often are?

          10   A.  I have no specific recollection.  If the photographs

          11       show there might have been one there, then yes, but

          12       I can't recall that specifically.

          13   Q.  You didn't consider using one of them just to be near

          14       the spot?

          15   A.  No, I didn't.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I want to ask you about the position

          17       of the plant pot or the tent.  The tent is quite a big

          18       structure, we have been seen photographs of it.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Obviously, a straight line -- and

          21       I know there's a lot of argument about where we are

          22       talking about -- but a straight line between where

          23       Mr Duggan ended up, or even where he may have started

          24       out, and where the gun is, is obviously a very important

          25       thing to consider, and there may be a wall in the way,


                                            37
 

 

 


           1       if at one angle of the tent the gun is.  It's actually

           2       a very important aspect this, isn't it?

           3   A.  Yes, it was, and I fully accept that on most jobs, after

           4       a period of distance, you reflect on them and you think,

           5       yes, I could have done certain things better.  I am

           6       fully aware of this issue and, yes, if it was one of the

           7       things I could perhaps go back and redo, with knowing

           8       what I know now, I fully accept that using the tents as

           9       markers, suited that purpose at that time, but whether

          10       I should have removed the tents and put down smaller

          11       markers after a certain period, after certain

          12       photography, then, yes, I fully accept that that

          13       probably would have been a better way of doing things.

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  All right.  You had been at the job for

          15       something like 11 or 12 years.

          16   A.  That's correct.

          17   Q.  You don't put a marker there but did you measure the

          18       distance from the place where the gun was in a number of

          19       ways, firstly, to the fence itself, vertically,

          20       diagonally, and then to the place where the body was and

          21       then onto the vehicle itself, several different

          22       measurements; do you follow?

          23   A.  Yes, I do and, no, I didn't do that and, yes, I do

          24       accept that that would have been an appropriate thing to

          25       do but in that moment, I didn't make that decision.


                                            38
 

 

 


           1   Q.  No, all right.  I think you do have in your notes

           2       a suggestion that -- I appreciate you have put

           3       a question mark -- 20 feet was your estimate.

           4   A.  Yes, it was.

           5   Q.  But that was between the gun and where?

           6   A.  That was the sort of -- a straight line to the body, to

           7       Mr Duggan's body.

           8   Q.  So between the body and the gun, you estimated to be

           9       20 feet?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  In relation to that, I think you obviously considered

          12       whether it had been kicked there by accident or

          13       deliberately and that seemed unlikely.

          14   A.  Well, I think anybody who knowingly decided to kick

          15       a possible firearm, if they knew it was a firearm, it

          16       would have been an incredibly dangerous thing to do.

          17   Q.  Well, let's move on to other possibilities.  Did you

          18       know that the shooting involved happened very quickly,

          19       there were several shots and where the injuries were on

          20       Mark Duggan, and so on; did you know any of that?

          21   A.  Not at the time I was there at the scene.  I was present

          22       at the postmortem and that all became clearer at that

          23       time.

          24   Q.  I don't ask to, as it were, impute knowledge from later.

          25           Taking the other possibility that you considered,


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       that it was thrown over the fence.  Just leaving the

           2       injuries to one side and the actual shooting itself, did

           3       you brief anyone that, in fact, the gun had been thrown

           4       over the fence?

           5   A.  Not as a specific sort of "this definitely happened",

           6       no.  It was of concern to me that, if the gun was

           7       connected to the incident, how did it get over the fence

           8       and my logic at that time was there was a significant

           9       number of police officers present.  Whether in order to

          10       get it out of the way of the scene, people working

          11       there, that it was picked up and thrown, to get it out

          12       of what somebody might have thought to be harm's way,

          13       but it wasn't a "this definitely happened".

          14   Q.  Did you ask anyone whether -- since -- was it one of the

          15       questions that you asked, "Well, did a police officer

          16       throw it over the fence to get it out of the way?"  Did

          17       you ask that question?

          18   A.  Well, one of the things was, due to the number of police

          19       officers there, yes, it was a perfectly reasonable

          20       question to ask: did anybody pick it up to throw it to

          21       get it out of the way?

          22   Q.  The answer was?

          23   A.  Don't know.

          24   Q.  Don't know.  One of the reasons I'm asking is

          25       Mr Suggett, who we'll be hearing from, who you have


                                            40
 

 

 


           1       mentioned, indicated and I do not ask for it to come on

           2       screen, it's been before, but he had a number of

           3       briefings about these matters, and that there was

           4       a suggestion during one of the briefings that a police

           5       officer had apparently thrown a firearm over a fence.

           6       So that might have come from you, might it?

           7   A.  Yes, I think, in meetings I have had -- or

           8       conversations -- or conversations with the IPCC, where

           9       this became apparent, that this had entered the arena as

          10       a fact and it was tracked back to the first sort of --

          11       the first knowledge of that was tracked back to me, I'm

          12       quite happy, yes, and I know I said to Mr Mehaffey at

          13       the scene "This is one thing you have got to consider

          14       while you have all of these police officers around --

          15       could somebody have thrown it?"

          16           But it was never meant as "I believe a police

          17       officer definitely threw this".  That was never my

          18       intention at all.  Whether it has been, sort of, you

          19       know, mutated over the course of different

          20       conversations, I really can't comment.

          21   Q.  Well, all right, one has to allow for mutation.  But in

          22       fact, the thought that you had doesn't appear to have

          23       been backed up by anyone at the scene at the time.

          24   A.  Well, I felt that it was one of the -- because -- so the

          25       IPCC were there at the time, that I felt it would be


                                            41
 

 

 


           1       important to tell them there is this gun, it is

           2       a distance away from the body, there is a possibility

           3       that it's been thrown, it might have been thrown by

           4       a police officer.  My recollection of it, it was couched

           5       in more, I would say, gentle tones rather than hard

           6       fact.

           7   Q.  There is another possibility: did you consider there was

           8       a possibility Mark Duggan didn't have a gun as he left

           9       the minicab?

          10   A.  Yes, I've always maintained in my notes, with various

          11       queries and question marks to myself, that was the gun

          12       actually connected to this incident?

          13   Q.  All right.  That's one way of putting it.  So if he

          14       didn't have the gun as he left the minicab, the question

          15       is: is it connected?  That's the question you're asking.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  You were asking yourself these questions at the scene?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Yes.  You knew there was a minicab driver, obviously?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  You knew from your notes, because we can see them, that

          22       the minicab driver wasn't considered to be a suspect or

          23       involved, was he?

          24   A.  No, he wasn't.

          25   Q.  Did you ask where he was?


                                            42
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I didn't.

           2   Q.  You didn't know he was in a vehicle at the scene?

           3   A.  No, I didn't.

           4   Q.  You didn't know he had actually spoken to a police

           5       officer and indicated that a box had been collected; you

           6       didn't know that?

           7   A.  No, I didn't.

           8   Q.  Because all of this would have been extremely relevant

           9       to you as a Crime Scene Manager, wouldn't it?

          10   A.  Yes, it would.

          11   Q.  Because one of the possibilities is that Mark Duggan

          12       didn't leave the minicab with a gun, but the gun was

          13       still inside the minicab; that's a possibility?

          14   A.  That may be now, yes.

          15   Q.  Just following this through, did anybody tell you, well,

          16       in fact the place from which it came originally, with

          17       the minicab driver -- the place from which it came may

          18       contain other guns; did you know about any other guns?

          19   A.  No, I didn't.

          20   Q.  Did you look in the minicab?

          21   A.  No, I didn't.

          22   Q.  Did you ask anybody whether they had, in fact, looked in

          23       the minicab, whether you call it a flash search or

          24       anything else; did you ask anyone whether they had done

          25       that?


                                            43
 

 

 


           1   A.  I cannot recall doing that, no.

           2   Q.  It's easy to be, you know, hypercritical with hindsight

           3       and I am not trying to do that, but do you appreciate

           4       now that there are quite a lot of questions you don't

           5       appear to have asked?

           6   A.  No, I fully accept that, I genuinely do.  We make

           7       decisions in the moment with the information that we

           8       have and, as I said earlier, once you distance yourself

           9       slightly from it and look back, and I do this with all

          10       jobs, and I'm sure most police officers and Crime Scene

          11       Managers do the same, yes, there's always things you

          12       think "I could have done that better", and I'm perfectly

          13       happy to accept there were questions that I could have

          14       asked but I didn't, for whatever reason, perhaps they

          15       didn't occur to me, and I may well have been able to

          16       better illustrate the scene as it was laid out.  Yes,

          17       I fully accept that.

          18   Q.  I know you are part of a number of people who approached

          19       this scene.  I think you are aware that, in the end, the

          20       minicab was taken away for a short time then it was

          21       brought back again; did you know about that?

          22   A.  I was made aware of that after the event, yes.

          23   Q.  That also is, if I may put it, a really pretty naive

          24       thing to do, wasn't it?

          25   A.  I thought it was quite extraordinary but --


                                            44
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Has there been -- just looking back on it, there is

           2       a reason because, of course, there are certain things

           3       that can emerge from this Inquest.  Has there been

           4       a review of crime scene management in this case?  In

           5       other words, got everybody together and said "Look, we

           6       have really made a lot of mistakes here and we shouldn't

           7       make these mistakes again"; has there been anything like

           8       that?

           9   A.  I have been asked to provide my documentation to my line

          10       manager for discussion at directorship level but, to my

          11       knowledge, we haven't been called together as a group to

          12       go through this prior to this Inquest, no.

          13   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Mansfield.

          15           Yes, let's see who is next.  Mr Stern, I think.

          16                      Questions by MR STERN

          17   MR STERN:  Yes, thank you, sir.  You have been gracious, if

          18       I may say so, in relation to the errors that took place

          19       on 4 August.  You attended, and I think you were the

          20       first person who did attend, in terms of Crime Scene

          21       Manager?

          22   A.  Yes, certainly from the forensic angle, yes.

          23   Q.  Could we just look at your note at CD485, going over to

          24       486.  If we start at 485, we'll be able to see -- CD485.

          25       If we look at the foot of the page, just so we can see


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       its context, this is 4 August and you had arrived and

           2       then at 19.20 you had a conversation with someone called

           3       DI Suggett; do you know where he was from?

           4   A.  Yes, he's from Professional Standards.

           5   Q.  So he wasn't one of the operational officers?

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  He's given you some information and you have already

           8       told us about this, and obviously he'll come along and

           9       tell us where he got that from.  Then at the foot of the

          10       page we can see at 20.54 you describe, having spoken to

          11       Mr Cundy, that you were aware that the gunman got out of

          12       the rear of the minicab and then that the cab driver had

          13       no injuries and not thought to be involved.

          14   A.  That was information given to me by him.

          15   Q.  By Mr Cundy?

          16   A.  Yes, it was, yes.

          17   Q.  Then we go over the page.  Is this still from Mr Cundy:

          18           "One officer hit (by whom?)."

          19   A.  Yes, that would be a continuation of information from

          20       him.

          21   Q.  So far as Mr Cundy was concerned, he didn't know how

          22       an officer had been hit?

          23   A.  No.  My sort of bracket and the question mark indicates

          24       that that was something that needed to be followed up

          25       on.


                                            46
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I see.  Then you have:

           2           "Number of shots fired -- to be confirmed how many."

           3           Then a little further down, if we look at page 486

           4       at number 4, you can see there you have written:

           5           "Believed police fired two shots -- CI Dowe."

           6   A.  Yes, that whole section there was a bit of a huddled

           7       briefing going on between a whole variety of different

           8       officers who had pitched up at the scene and obviously

           9       different information was coming from different people

          10       and I was trying to sort of catch up with who was

          11       telling me what and or what discussions were, and where

          12       I could attribute a name to a specific piece of

          13       information that's where I recorded it.

          14   Q.  That's very helpful.  So CI Dowe was the only officer

          15       from what you have described as CO19?

          16   A.  Yes, that I was aware of at the scene.

          17   Q.  Or that you spoke to?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  As far as he was concerned, you've recorded him as

          20       saying:

          21           "Believe police fired two shots ..."

          22   A.  Yes.  But obviously the fact that that was believed

          23       might interpret that he wasn't entirely sure either.

          24   Q.  Absolutely.  So that's what he had told you.  But if you

          25       look at number 11, somebody called DC Powell:


                                            47
 

 

 


           1           "One officer fired, discharged several shots --

           2       countback still in progress."

           3           The countback being counting back the ammunition the

           4       firearms officers had initially taken out?

           5   A.  That's correct, yes.

           6   Q.  Then:

           7           "Damaged police radio -- not yet known if a direct

           8       hit or ricochet."

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  What's what you were being told at that stage.  Thank

          11       you.

          12           Can I ask you about a couple of documents, to see if

          13       you can help.  First of all, you have just said to my

          14       learned friend Mr Mansfield that you put in your notes

          15       that the estimate of distance from the firearm to

          16       Mr Duggan was about 20 feet, as you had estimated it?

          17   A.  That was my estimation, yes.

          18   Q.  Were you aware that Mr Duggan had been moved two or

          19       three feet by HEMS, by the emergency doctors, or not?

          20   A.  No, I wasn't aware but that wouldn't necessarily be

          21       uncommon for them to do that.

          22   Q.  No, no, but I'm just wondering whether you were aware of

          23       it?

          24   A.  No, I didn't know how far out of position he might have

          25       been or if he had been moved at all.


                                            48
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Also, I wonder if we could look at CD1054.  Now,

           2       I appreciate this is some time later but it's a note and

           3       I just wanted to ask your view about this, please.  It

           4       says -- it's to Neil from somebody called Colin,

           5       I assume it's Colin Sparrow and we're going to hear from

           6       him.  He's from the IPCC, I think, yes?

           7   A.  I believe so.

           8   Q.  All right:

           9           "As per our previous discussion, there is some

          10       confusion over the position of the handgun.

          11           "It was 4.35 metres from Mr Duggan and over

          12       a fence/wall."

          13           Were you ever aware that it had been measured?

          14   A.  It wasn't measured by me but the fact that we had to

          15       already arrange -- or somebody had arranged for the

          16       laser computer modelling, that obviously there would be

          17       a chance that there would be a more accurate measurement

          18       done.

          19   Q.  The laser measurement shows the body of Mr Duggan in

          20       an entirely different position from the way in which he

          21       was being worked on by the officers when CPR was being

          22       carried out.  Have you seen photographs showing that?

          23   A.  No, I haven't, no.

          24   Q.  The other thing, perhaps you can just help as to whose

          25       writing this is, CD1038.  It may be that's PC Rainford's


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       but I just wanted to know whether you can help us?

           2   A.  I'm sorry, I can't.  I've no idea.

           3   Q.  It's Rachel Samuel's document, I'm told.  But you can

           4       see that this is a document showing, on the right-hand

           5       side, a diagram of the area, and also the taxi right in

           6       the middle of the page and where the mobile phone of --

           7       well, it's a BlackBerry mobile phone; were you aware of

           8       that being found in the minicab?

           9   A.  No, I wasn't, no.

          10   Q.  And the Sainsbury's bag and where that was, so far as

          11       DC Samuel was concerned; you are not aware of that

          12       either?

          13   A.  No, I'm not, no.

          14   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you Mr Stern.

          16           Mr Butt?

          17   MR BUTT:  No.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's just see who's next.

          19       Mr Glasson, anything you would like to ask?

          20   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

          22                      Questions by MR KEITH

          23   MR KEITH:  Thank you.  When you attend a scene as a Crime

          24       Scene Manager, is it usual at a complex scene, for there

          25       to be all number of different officers from different


                                            50
 

 

 


           1       departments of the Metropolitan Police present?

           2   A.  Yes, quite usually, yes.

           3   Q.  In this particular instance, you received information

           4       from a wide variety of difference sources before you

           5       attended the scene?

           6   A.  Yes, I did.

           7   Q.  So, as you have told Mr Underwood, you received

           8       information from your own office --

           9   A.  Yes, I did.

          10   Q.  -- from Trident, SCD8?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  You had communications with Detective Inspector Suggett

          13       of the Directorate of Professional Standards?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  You spoke, of course, to Assistant Chief Constable Cundy

          16       from Trident?

          17   A.  Yes, yes, I did.

          18   Q.  Did you liaise at all with anybody at CO19?

          19   A.  Chief Inspector Dowe was present at the scene.

          20   Q.  Yes, and you gave consideration to contacting the SCD

          21       Reserve?

          22   A.  Yes, I did.

          23   Q.  Is it usual, where there are such a number of different

          24       sources, for there to be a coherent or clear picture of

          25       what had happened when you attend a scene?


                                            51
 

 

 


           1   A.  Frequently, no.  In a whole range of scenes they all

           2       follow a similar pattern in the very early stages, that

           3       there might be a number of people from a number of

           4       different departments or directorates with pieces of the

           5       jigsaw, some may be present at the scene some might not

           6       be present at the scene.  So, you know, it's quite usual

           7       for there to be varying degrees of information, some of

           8       which might actually contradict each other.  So it's --

           9       that's quite usual for a Crime Scene Manager to be

          10       dealing with those situations.

          11   Q.  Do you then have to keep an open mind and update your

          12       information as and when new facts are received?

          13   A.  As and when, and hopefully because of, you know, trying

          14       to do my day job, if you want to call it that, by

          15       managing the scene, you know, people know I'm at the

          16       scene, or a Crime Scene Manager is present.  As many

          17       questions I can ask, I would hope that people would

          18       think to inform me of any significant updates.

          19       Sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  How will they know you are at the

          21       scene, do you wear something special?

          22   A.  We're normally quite identifiable in the fact we are

          23       normally in the full barrier clothing, blue suits,

          24       masks, overshoes, as you would see on the television or

          25       a news excerpt, that we're -- forensic staff at a scene


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       are usually quite easily recognisable.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You wear a badge saying Crime Scene

           3       Manager?

           4   A.  No, we don't because of the barrier clothing that we

           5       have.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have to go around talking to

           7       people, identifying yourself at such?

           8   A.  Obviously people at the scene knew I was there, they

           9       knew who I was and they knew I would be on site

          10       somewhere.  My mobile phone number was given out on

          11       a number of occasions so my presence at the scene was

          12       known and, if people needed to speak to me urgently

          13       about something, then they knew I would be there to be

          14       contacted.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          16   MR KEITH:  When you attend a scene, no one is surprised to

          17       see find you there, it's quite usual for a Crime Scene

          18       Manager to be present at the scene of a shooting?

          19   A.  Yes.  It should be, yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were you surprised at -- you weren't

          21       there until 2 hours 45 minutes after the event.  Are you

          22       surprised there wasn't someone else there managing the

          23       crime scene before then, as a Crime Scene Manager?

          24   A.  Well, bearing in mind that I -- as I said, I wasn't

          25       technically officially informed by the usual channels,


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       it was only by perchance sequence of events that

           2       I deployed myself there and obviously I made quite a lot

           3       of phonecalls before I even got in my car and then there

           4       was the travelling distance to get there.

           5           So the fact that over two hours sort of disappeared

           6       is sort of a reflection of, you know, trying to gather

           7       information and the time it took me to get to the scene.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay, thank you.

           9   MR KEITH:  Some questions have been put to you about the

          10       management of the scene.  So can we be clear about the

          11       nature of your role.  Are you tasked with the

          12       investigation of what has happened as part of your

          13       duties or are you concerned with the physical, if you

          14       like, physical management of the scene?

          15   A.  I'm -- I would be part of an overall team with

          16       a specific responsibility for managing the forensic

          17       investigation, not the complete investigation.

          18   Q.  Who did you understand -- not necessarily in terms of

          19       the individual's name -- was responsible for

          20       investigating what happened and the responsibility for

          21       the events that had occurred?

          22   A.  Due to the nature of the scene, being a discharge of

          23       a police weapon and a fatality, that would fall within

          24       the remit of the IPCC and I was anticipating that they

          25       would be involved at some point.


                                            54
 

 

 


           1   Q.  We'll come back to this a little later but are there

           2       references in your notes to the fact that you had to

           3       await the arrival of the IPCC that when they attended

           4       there was a discussion concerning your initial

           5       assessment and the action plan and, thereafter, that the

           6       major forensic decisions and observations were then

           7       discussed in cooperation with them?

           8   A.  Indeed, yes.

           9   Q.  Were you responsible for the initial investigation of

          10       what happened, that is to say for the investigation of

          11       the events prior to the IPCC arriving at the scene?

          12   A.  Only in respect of trying to determine from, like, the

          13       forensic angle, what was at the scene, what needed to be

          14       done and how could it assist the investigation.  But

          15       from the overall investigation, I only -- my remit was

          16       really only to do with the crime scene management in the

          17       forensic aspect, as part of a sort of larger

          18       investigation.

          19   Q.  You have raised in your notes a number of points and

          20       queries.  In your experience, do such points and queries

          21       tend to be clarified in the course of time?

          22   A.  Some are, yes.  Obviously, when witnesses get

          23       interviewed, when people give their statements and the

          24       inquiry progresses, yes, some do, but some don't.

          25   Q.  When you attend a scene, is it important to keep an open


                                            55
 

 

 


           1       mind as to what might have happened?

           2   A.  Yes it is, yes.

           3   Q.  In this particular occasion, having spoken to a number

           4       of people, and there being a number of issues that

           5       required your attention, was it particularly important

           6       to keep an open mind as to what had happened?

           7   A.  Well, yes, it was, yes.

           8   Q.  In your statement -- could perhaps we have on the screen

           9       CS727 -- we can see at the bottom of the page two bullet

          10       points concerning standard operating procedures

          11       following a critical incident, dealing with the removal

          12       from the scene of those persons who were most

          13       immediately concerned in the events that have occurred.

          14   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          15   Q.  In your experience, when you attend a scene, having been

          16       provided with lots of different pieces of information,

          17       do you normally find that the police officers who were

          18       involved in the shooting are still there?

          19   A.  At incidents involving discharge of police weapons,

          20       those are not scene types that I would frequently

          21       attend, in the fact that sort of they don't,

          22       fortunately, don't seem to crop up too often.  So for

          23       a firearms officer to be present at a scene of a police

          24       discharge, they have their own implementation plans

          25       which basically means that they get removed and


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       debriefed away from the scene very, very quickly.

           2   Q.  What about witnesses to the events that have occurred?

           3       Would you normally expect to be able to speak to

           4       witnesses or to have a direct contact with members of

           5       the public who might have seen something or not?

           6   A.  No.  Quite often, by the time a Crime Scene Manager is

           7       deployed to a scene, the management of the scene by

           8       police officers in order to secure it as a crime scene

           9       means normally clearing from the scene sort of members

          10       of the public, witnesses are taken away for statements

          11       to be taken.  So what I end up with is a relatively, if

          12       you want to call -- sterile scene in that respect.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It would be quite useful for you, if

          14       you are managing the scene, to take you back to just

          15       before midnight for example, of that night before you

          16       hand over the scene, to know the some of the results of

          17       the debriefing of those that actually took part in the

          18       incident, would it not?

          19   A.  Absolutely certainly it would.  I had no idea at that

          20       time whether those debriefs were still ongoing, they

          21       could have still been in the middle of them, there were

          22       obviously a lot of variables there, about the number of

          23       people involved, where they had gone, were they being

          24       actively debriefed and whether there was going to be any

          25       information that could have come from those debriefs or


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       statement takings that would have been to use at the

           2       scene, but to say it is not an infrequent set of

           3       circumstances to be working in when you are dealing with

           4       homicide and death scenes.

           5   MR KEITH:  It seems that each department or each group of

           6       officers or each group of individuals each have their

           7       own separate procedures for, as you say, rendering the

           8       scene sterile, for being removed and then being made

           9       part of their own post-incident procedures.

          10   A.  Yes, that seems to be the case.

          11   Q.  Do you know what the reason is for the removal of the

          12       officers involved in the shooting from the scene?

          13   A.  Not in specifics, no.  I'm afraid I don't.

          14   Q.  In general terms?

          15   A.  No, not really.

          16   Q.  You don't, all right.  As and when information became

          17       available, through whatever route, if it was brought to

          18       your attention would it be logged in the Crime Scene

          19       Manager's notes, the notes that we've seen?

          20   A.  Yes, it would.  I mean, any significant sort of

          21       information that could influence a direction of scene

          22       examination, you know, would be logged and then perhaps

          23       strategies or actions would be adjusted accordingly,

          24       depending on what that information was.

          25   Q.  The notes that we've looked at with you reflect, of


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       course, the notes that you make prior to you leaving the

           2       scene at 01.29.  We see, in fact, the time you left the

           3       scene at the top of CD491.  Perhaps we could have that

           4       up just so we can see the time that you left, right at

           5       the top of the page.

           6           Then you keep your own diary of events thereafter,

           7       insofar as you come back to dealing with anything to do

           8       with the investigation, but those Crime Scene Managers

           9       who replaced you, in particular Mr Cockram, he would

          10       then keep his own notes as to what happened during the

          11       course of his own time on duty?

          12   A.  That's correct, yes.

          13   Q.  Then is there a --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is there no way of handing over

          15       a log that would have actually been written out and said

          16       "Over to you, you hang on to this?"

          17   A.  No, we have always maintained our own logs because we

          18       may retain involvement in the case and, if a log was

          19       being passed around different Crime Scene Managers and

          20       I became involved again at a later date, then I would

          21       have to try and get it back from whoever had it, the

          22       logistics of that would be incredibly difficult, to

          23       start with, so we maintain our own logs.

          24   MR KEITH:  Is there a handover process, a briefing process,

          25       by which you update the person who replaces you at the


                                            59
 

 

 


           1       scene with where you have got to?

           2   A.  Yes.  In this particular case, it is -- I would consider

           3       the best practice is that you have a physical verbal

           4       handover to the incoming Crime Scene Manager.  In this

           5       case, that happened between me and Mr Cockram.  It is

           6       normal practice, you know, wherever possible, in most

           7       cases we're involved in.

           8   Q.  Could we look, please, at CD478.  At some point

           9       afterwards, is an advice or action report prepared which

          10       summarises perhaps when you have all had a chance to

          11       catch your breath, where the crime scene management has

          12       got to, which sets out the broad and basic facts as to

          13       what has occurred and what has been discovered?

          14   A.  Yes, that was a process brought in for us to utilise,

          15       which means that that particular document is a little

          16       bit more easily circulated.  It can be done easily by

          17       email, as an electronic document, and it -- again, that

          18       can be updated by anybody who has it who has any input

          19       into the incident and I believe that document -- I wrote

          20       the original document --

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Does that have a date on it?

          22   MR KEITH:  Yes.  If we can zoom in on the top of the page,

          23       please, do we see there that it says, to the left-hand

          24       side, "Title and version, CSM briefing: advice/action

          25       report.


                                            60
 

 

 


           1           "Summary circumstances and initial forensic

           2       response.

           3           "Author ... CSM Patricia Larrigan.

           4           "Created ..."

           5           Then that's your directorate:

           6           "Created date: 5 August."

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  So this summary was then put together the following day

           9       and then updated thereafter?

          10   A.  When you say the following day, obviously the incident

          11       happened on the 4th, I was still at the scene over into

          12       the 5th, so that was prepared in the early hours of

          13       the 5th.

          14   Q.  If we look further down the page we can see the name of

          15       the two officers there, or rather one officer, one

          16       investigator, DI Suggett, who was from the Directorate

          17       of Professional Standards, and on the right, Colin

          18       Sparrow, the gentleman from the IPCC?

          19   A.  That's correct.

          20   Q.  Then at the bottom of the page, various sources, so

          21       there's a variety of persons named there, to whom you

          22       have made mention.  A summary of one version of the

          23       events, a summary of the attendance of HEMS, the gun

          24       being present at the scene, the whole scene being

          25       secured and a broad identification of what was not known


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       at that stage --

           2   A.  That's pretty much it, yes.

           3   Q.  -- where the target was sitting in the minicab, how the

           4       officers were in each car, the position of the officers

           5       when the shooting started, which cars the injured

           6       officer and the officer who fired the shots were in, and

           7       so on?

           8   A.  They were all unknowns at that time to me.

           9   Q.  Over the page, CD479, there's an identification at the

          10       top of the page of the broad scenes, I suppose, the

          11       forensic areas that would require further exploration.

          12       So Ferry Lane, Mr Duggan himself, the gun and the

          13       locality of the gun, the Toyota and the CO19 vehicles.

          14   A.  That's correct, yes.

          15   Q.  Then, a broad description of what had been understood to

          16       have occurred further down the page.

          17   A.  They are based on my initial scene observations as well,

          18       yes.

          19   Q.  Halfway down that broad passage, so four or five

          20       paragraphs further down, a second scene tent, if we

          21       could just zoom in, please, on that paragraph.  Just

          22       below the holepunch:

          23           "A second scene tent had been erected on the grass

          24       verge between Ferry Lane and Jarrow Road to protect

          25       a gun on the verge due to the distance it could have


                                            62
 

 

 


           1       been thrown at."

           2   A.  Yes, it could have been thrown at.

           3   Q.  Does that reflect what you said earlier about one

           4       possible hypothesis?

           5   A.  One possible hypothesis, yes.

           6   Q.  Then you make a reference to the tent, the plant tub,

           7       cannabis plant, and further down the casing, and then

           8       a discussion about the relevance of the CO19 vehicles.

           9           Could I ask you about this, please.  There was

          10       a discussion about the vehicles, and it says:

          11           "It was decided by the IPCC, DPS and CO19 that the

          12       four cars concerned did not have any forensic

          13       significant value that would require them to be taken to

          14       Perivale."

          15           Is Perivale the location of the Specialist

          16       Metropolitan Police Examination?

          17   A.  Yes, that's where all the sort of high-end forensic work

          18       is carried out, and it was discussions around whether

          19       that, you know -- we're talking about DNA recovery,

          20       fingerprint recovery, those types of examinations,

          21       whether those cars needed that level of examination.

          22   Q.  Was that an issue that you were empowered to decide on

          23       your own or only after consultation with the scene

          24       investigator, effectively the IPCC?

          25   A.  I am just trying to recall back.  (Pause)


                                            63
 

 

 


           1           The cars were present at the scene.  Their positions

           2       were noted at the scene.  I think it was an issue of --

           3       because they were police vehicles, we knew they were

           4       police vehicles, there would be information about who

           5       would have been in those vehicles, was there any

           6       indication that, you know, Mr Duggan had been in one of

           7       those vehicles, what was it needed to be proved

           8       forensically around those vehicles, in the way of, like,

           9       the DNA, fingerprints, you know looking for any contact

          10       trace evidence, when although it seemed to be quite

          11       a confused scene, it was sort of a managed situation

          12       where we knew police officers had turned up and the

          13       incident had happened.

          14           So what was the inference you can value in those

          15       cars, in relation to those types of examinations that

          16       required them to be taken to the sort of specialist

          17       forensic examination areas.

          18   Q.  The question was, in fact, directed at who was

          19       responsible, who had authority or responsibility, for

          20       making the decisions as to whether or not the CO19 cars

          21       should be forensically examined.  Was that a matter for

          22       you on your own or a matter for you in consultation with

          23       the IPCC, the DPS and others?

          24   A.  That would have been a consultation exercise, yes.

          25       I wouldn't have made a sort of unilateral decision, you


                                            64
 

 

 


           1       know, without consulting around those issues.

           2   Q.  Does the same follow in relation to the Toyota, the

           3       minicab?

           4   A.  I had no -- again, I had no direct contact with that,

           5       you know, post my attendance.  But, yes, all these

           6       things would be in negotiation with whoever needed what

           7       work to be done so whoever was in overall charge of the

           8       investigation, who was part of the team investigating,

           9       you know, it's a case of what needs to be done and how

          10       do we do it.

          11   Q.  Over the page on CD480, there are a list of tasks

          12       identified.  We can see the top one is making safe of

          13       the gun, then the photography, the stills recording,

          14       gunshot residue, recovery of clothing, forensic

          15       packaging, search of the cordon area, recovery of

          16       clothing/property, then the CAMB recording of the scene.

          17       Then this:

          18           "POLSA search depending on IPCC requirements."

          19   A.  That's correct.

          20   Q.  Can you help us with that, please.  To what extent could

          21       you, as a Crime Scene Manager for the Metropolitan

          22       Police, make an unilateral decision about the principal

          23       decision to have a POLSA search and, if so, the extent

          24       and nature of that search?

          25   A.  It's standard practice to have a POLSA search at many


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       serious crime scenes in order to locate evidence that

           2       wasn't immediately obvious or had become, you know,

           3       known to the inquiry since initial examinations.  What

           4       POLSA look for, where they look for it, is normally

           5       a matter of discussion between the investigators,

           6       depending on what it is that they want POLSA to look

           7       for.

           8   Q.  When you say investigators, who do you mean?

           9   A.  It's normally a joint decision.  If we've got knowledge

          10       about the scene, we can give an indication of perhaps

          11       search parameters, type of items that perhaps need to be

          12       looked for.  But, again, it's normally a consultation

          13       with whoever is leading the investigation.

          14   Q.  On this occasion, looking at that phrase, depending on

          15       IPCC requirements, can you help us, please, who was

          16       leading the investigation?

          17   A.  My understanding, if you're talking about the IPCC, the

          18       only name I was given who would be taking on the

          19       investigation the following day was Mr Sparrow.

          20   Q.  Can we now just look back, please --

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Holding there for a moment, the

          22       search of the cordon area for ballistic material, were

          23       you present when that took place?

          24   A.  No, I wasn't, no.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you were preserving that area,


                                            66
 

 

 


           1       were you?

           2   A.  That's correct.  The scene cordons -- once I have handed

           3       over to Mr Cockram, the scene cordons were still in the

           4       same place they had been when I arrived, I didn't make

           5       any adjustments to those.  Whether or not they got

           6       altered or reduced after I had left I have no knowledge.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are telling us, are you, that

           8       you yourself kept very carefully away from there because

           9       you could have affected gunshot residue or other marks

          10       on the ground or bullets, casings and things like that?

          11   A.  Certainly from the gunshot residue angle, I didn't get

          12       too close to what could be other areas of significant

          13       forensic relevance like the body of Mr Duggan and the

          14       vehicles involved.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

          16   MR KEITH:  At the bottom of CD485 we have the time of your

          17       arrival at the scene where you meet Mr Cundy from

          18       Trident.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Then over the page, CD486, the words:

          21           "Not known if suspects fired any shots.

          22           "One officer hit (by whom?).  Number of shots

          23       fired -- to be confirmed how many."

          24           Two questions, please: (1) why did you turn

          25       immediately to the question of shots and the gun and


                                            67
 

 

 


           1       what had happened, why was that a central part of your

           2       crime scene management?

           3   A.  Well, it formed the basis of the fact that you had

           4       somebody who had died and the fact somebody who had been

           5       injured.  At that time, I had no idea of who had done

           6       what to whom and how that could have happened.

           7           The information I had was that a weapon had been

           8       discharged and police firearms had been discharged, so

           9       the whole basis of the case was built around the type of

          10       incident it was, being a firearms discharge incident.

          11   Q.  Was your primary function to start filling in the jigsaw

          12       puzzle, if you like, to find out what had occurred?

          13   A.  On sort of, you know, building the picture on the

          14       forensic terms and trying to find out how things are

          15       relevant to each other, yes, trying to put the pieces

          16       together would be an accurate reflection.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But not doing any investigation as

          18       such, as you were saying earlier?

          19   A.  No, I'm not an investigator in that sense of the word.

          20   MR KEITH:  Did you necessarily accept all the information

          21       that you were given at face value or as being accurate?

          22   A.  I've recorded the information that's as given to me and,

          23       as you can see from the notes, there's a whole variety

          24       of information, some of which is subtly different to

          25       each other and I used that information to try and inform


                                            68
 

 

 


           1       the decisions I make.

           2           If I find that what is being presented to me at the

           3       scene is in possible contradiction to information I had

           4       been given, well, that would have been something of

           5       interest, which I certainly would have flagged up

           6       elsewhere.  But I record what I'm told but I don't

           7       necessarily always sort of take it as gospel because it

           8       might be second or third-hand information before I even

           9       get it myself.

          10   Q.  How long do you recall did the briefing last for?  We

          11       can see on that page, CD486, a third of the way down

          12       from the top, next to the name DI Suggett "Briefing

          13       info".  When he briefed you on your arrival, do you

          14       recall for how long he briefed you?

          15   A.  It wasn't -- I mean, it was in minutes, it wasn't

          16       a passing conversation over in seconds, we definitely

          17       stood together, but obviously he has other areas of

          18       responsibility so he had to move on to do other things,

          19       but it was certainly a conversation of several minutes

          20       at least.

          21   Q.  At the bottom of the page, CD486, the penultimate line:

          22           "Awaiting arrival of IPCC re further direction and

          23       information."

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  To what extent did you have to wait for their arrival


                                            69
 

 

 


           1       before you could make any final decisions about the area

           2       in which your forensic management could go?

           3   A.  I took the opportunity while waiting for the arrival to

           4       at least have a look at the scene.  By the time I had

           5       had my initial walk round to see what was where, the

           6       IPCC had arrived and that's when I was identified to

           7       Mr Mehaffey and his colleagues and we had that

           8       conversation then.

           9   Q.  Why did you have to confine yourself to an initial

          10       assessment and take no further steps before they had

          11       arrived?

          12   A.  I was anticipating that they would be leading on the

          13       investigation and, if this had been a homicide inquiry,

          14       which we normally do, I would normally wait for a senior

          15       officer from the homicide command to attend, to have

          16       those discussions with, so it would be the person who

          17       I would perceive to be leading the investigation that

          18       I would be consulting with and passing on my

          19       observations to, to inform them about what type of scene

          20       it was that they had there and what priorities they

          21       might have, which might vary from my own or what

          22       I perceive to be my own, so I took the opportunity to

          23       walk around and, by the time that I had finished that,

          24       they had arrived anyway, so we could discuss what they

          25       needed doing.


                                            70
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So CD487, do we see there --

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith, what is the timing --

           3       I keep thinking you are about to come to the end but if

           4       you are not, I am going to interrupt you.

           5   MR KEITH:  I do not wish to raise any false hopes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I have had false hopes for

           7       20 minutes but there we are.

           8   MR KEITH:  Very sorry to hear that.  There are some

           9       important points still to come but I will deal with them

          10       as quickly as possible.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm not putting you under any

          12       pressure but I just want to know so those in front of me

          13       can have their usual mid-morning break which I have been

          14       delaying.

          15   MR KEITH:  I will be a further ten minutes, or so.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we had better have a break

          17       now, now I have interrupted you.

          18           Sorry about this, we will just have our short

          19       mid-morning break, rather late, but thank you very much

          20       so I will ask for the cameras to be off.

          21                   (In the absence of the jury)

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am reassured that you will be

          23       completed, obviously, giving evidence comparatively

          24       shortly, but we will have a quarter of an hour break at

          25       this point.  All right, I'll rise.


                                            71
 

 

 


           1   (12.08 pm)

           2                         (A short break)

           3   (12.33 pm)

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Thank you very much.  I'll

           5       have the cameras off, please, and the jury in.

           6                  (In the presence of the jury)

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

           8       jury.

           9           Yes, you are still under the oath that you took

          10       earlier on, just ten minutes left from Mr Keith, I am

          11       told.

          12           Yes, Mr Keith?

          13   MR KEITH:  CD487, please.  Again, these are your notes.  At

          14       the bottom of the page, there's a reference to the IPCC

          15       members attending the scene: Mr Mehaffey, Investigator

          16       Omotosho and Kirkpatrick.

          17   A.  That's correct, yes.

          18   Q.  You were told when they arrived that the Senior

          19       Investigating Officer would be Mr Sparrow and do we see

          20       a reference to him on the bottom of your notes there?

          21   A.  Yes, I wrote that down, yes.

          22   Q.  Over the page, CD488, when they had arrived, top line,

          23       did you discuss with them the initial assessment that

          24       you had already carried out and debate the general

          25       thrust of where you were going forensically?


                                            72
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  I relayed to them what I had seen in respect of

           2       the layout of the crime scene and, based on that,

           3       I raised a number of what I called issues for them that

           4       they may need to pick up on as part of their

           5       investigation.

           6   Q.  Was one of the issues that you debated and discussed

           7       with them the finding of the gun on the grass verge and

           8       the issue of how it had come to be there?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Right.  Further down the page, just under the -- you'll

          11       see the heading "Initial action plan".  In the line

          12       above it you see these words:

          13           "Agree with Chris Mehaffey, at his request."

          14           Did you discuss with the IPCC the initial action

          15       plan you then set out?

          16   A.  Yes, I wanted to find out from them what their priority

          17       was with all the different elements of the scene, what

          18       was the thing they would like me to concentrate on

          19       first?

          20   Q.  Did they indicate what the priority was in terms of the

          21       recovery of the firearm?

          22   A.  Yes, that was their priority.

          23   Q.  Further down the page, we can see points 1, 2 and 3.  Do

          24       you there set out some of the areas that have not yet

          25       been established?


                                            73
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.  That would be sort of moving on through

           2       the process of things that would be the next in line to

           3       do.

           4   Q.  The next page, CD489, this page was a continuation --

           5       that is to say you ran out of space in your original log

           6       and you used continuation pages from another logbook?

           7   A.  That's right, they are loose leaf ones.

           8   Q.  We can see at the top of the page:

           9           "Continued from book 199 (last page)."

          10           You have set out your observations in relation to

          11       the location of the weapon, the plant pot, the finding

          12       on the grass verge and so on?

          13   A.  That's right, yes.

          14   Q.  At the bottom of the page:

          15           "Chris Mehaffey informed by Michael Vaughan of

          16       initial observations re gun and radio."

          17           So, having arrived, were the IPCC investigators

          18       intimately involved in the discussion as to what the

          19       preliminary assessments and findings were beginning to

          20       demonstrate?

          21   A.  Yes, we were updating them as things became known that

          22       were obviously going to be relevant to them.

          23   Q.  CD490, the final page, over the page, 4 August, as far

          24       as you were concerned, halfway down the page above 5, if

          25       we can just zoom in:


                                            74
 

 

 


           1           "Further searches of scene vehicles to be arranged

           2       for morning."

           3           Can you recall, please, for us what decisions were

           4       taken in relation to the searching of the Toyota?

           5   A.  None under my direction.  I didn't make any specific

           6       reference to the Toyota.  There was obviously going to

           7       be an extensive to do list that I passed on to

           8       Mr Cockram and then whatever point he got to would have

           9       been subject for, you know, whatever it's subject to.

          10       I cannot really answer more than that.

          11   Q.  But it appears there was some debate as to what steps

          12       would have to be taken in relation to searching of the

          13       Toyota?

          14   A.  Not at that time, not specifically.  It would need to be

          15       included, but not specifically.

          16   Q.  So when it says "further searches", was that a reference

          17       to what further searches might be arranged for the

          18       following day?

          19   A.  That's right.  It wasn't a specific direction, it was

          20       general terms.

          21   Q.  Are you aware of whether or not the Toyota was searched

          22       the following afternoon?

          23   A.  I became aware of it later on.

          24   Q.  That it was searched by a POLSA team around about

          25       5 o'clock?


                                            75
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, I believe I was on duty at that time and there was

           2       officers with me who were updated with that information

           3       and passed that on.

           4   Q.  Right.  Just remaining, please, finally, on CD490,

           5       there's an action point 6 at the bottom, "Forensic

           6       strategy".  So before you left, you set out

           7       a preliminary forensic strategy establishing the

           8       sequence of events, the cause of death, the nature of

           9       the injuries, established if the recovered weapon is

          10       lethal barrelled and if recently discharged.

          11           So, by the time you left, and you completed your

          12       handover, had you reached any firm views in relation to

          13       what had occurred or were you still engaged in the

          14       process of trying to establish what had happened?

          15   A.  They were current strategies.  I don't think any of the

          16       points had been fully resolved at that point.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just so we can understand it, you

          18       are writing all of this down at the time --

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- you are on a clip board --

          21   A.  Yes, with the notes in front of me.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- right the way through on the very

          23       4 August that we we're talking about?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   MR KEITH:  In relation to the box, did any officer or IPCC


                                            76
 

 

 


           1       investigator raise with you any necessity to look for

           2       a box?

           3   A.  Because it was so early -- such early days in that

           4       inquiry while I was there, I didn't know about the

           5       presence of the box in the car, because, I think I've

           6       already said, I didn't go into the car, so that wasn't

           7       known about at that time.  So there was no specific

           8       requests made to me around gathering up anything from

           9       the car.

          10   Q.  You've told us how one of the primary objectives set by

          11       the IPCC was the issues concerning the discharge of

          12       a gun, who shot who, who fired at who, how many shots

          13       there were and what the outcome was of any discharge.

          14       Did that setting of a priority have any impact on the

          15       immediacy of looking at other issues, for example inside

          16       the Toyota or any of the other vehicles present at the

          17       scene?

          18   A.  No.  It was a staged approach so my concentration, after

          19       my initial assessment, was purely the gun, but I was

          20       obviously conscious that there was a significant amount

          21       more work to do.  What shape or form that took would be

          22       whoever preceded me to make their own negotiations and

          23       decisions with whoever was involved in the

          24       investigation.

          25   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.  I have no further


                                            77
 

 

 


           1       questions.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Mr Keith.

           3           Yes, Mr Underwood?

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you, nothing else.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I have no other questions as

           6       well.  Thank you very much indeed for coming to assist

           7       the jury.  That concludes your evidence, you are free

           8       now to go --

           9               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Perhaps one moment, sorry, because

          11       I have forgotten that I was handed a note from the jury

          12       and they just wanted -- just to help them.

          13           You were asked about you attending as a Crime Scene

          14       Manager and you were phoned up, really, as I get the

          15       picture from you, really just to arrange someone to come

          16       along and take photographs and the more you got to know

          17       about it all, the more you felt, in your experience,

          18       that this is an incident which desperately needed

          19       a Crime Scene Manager.  You ended up going there

          20       arriving shortly before 9 o'clock.  Is there some sort

          21       of protocol which actually covers as to when Crime Scene

          22       Managers should be asked to attend particular scenes or

          23       not?

          24   A.  Yes.  We do have a remit.  It is a published remit.  It

          25       involves, normally, major crime, anything involving


                                            78
 

 

 


           1       a death, whether unexplained, suspicious or an obvious

           2       homicide.  It includes firearms incidents.  That is

           3       published so our remit is known about.

           4           In the normal procedures, if there is a serious

           5       crime anywhere in London, that we are contacted via

           6       a single point of contact, which is normally the SCD

           7       Reserve -- it was at that time -- and that is where we

           8       normally receive our first information about a case.

           9       That process didn't happen in this particular incident

          10       for I really can't say what reasons.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You don't know?  You haven't been

          12       told?

          13   A.  No, no.  There was no direct request for a Crime Scene

          14       Manager.  The initial request -- and I don't know who it

          15       was made by -- was purely for a photographer to attend

          16       the scene.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There is a protocol which governs

          18       this sort of incident and you would have expected that

          19       protocol to have been followed, which would have meant

          20       you would have been approached to act as a Crime Scene

          21       Manager?

          22   A.  Yes, I might have been approached earlier than I was,

          23       quite easily.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You say "quite easily", what sort of

          25       timescale would you have hoped that someone might have


                                            79
 

 

 


           1       asked for a Crime Scene Manager?

           2   A.  In some incidents, when officers local to the incident

           3       on the ground know that they've got a major incident

           4       running, say a homicide for example, they may well be

           5       putting in a call to forensic services for support

           6       within half an hour of that incident occurring.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much for that.

           8                Further questions by MR MANSFIELD

           9   MR MANSFIELD:  I'm so sorry, post script to that answer, if

          10       I may just ask one question.  Sorry, just to detain you

          11       one second.

          12           Who would be responsible for making the initial

          13       approach to the point of contact, in other words who

          14       decides?

          15   A.  It can come from a variety of sources, but it is

          16       normally either local CID officers, it could be

          17       a Detective Constable or Sergeant, it could be

          18       a uniformed Inspector who's running an incident.

          19       Depending on the incident, it could be officers from the

          20       Road Death Investigation Unit, but it's normally

          21       somebody with knowledge of the case who realises that

          22       more specialist forensic support is needed.

          23   MR MANSFIELD:  Then in this case, who should have asked for

          24       a Crime Scene Manager?

          25   A.  It could have been absolutely anybody at the scene


                                            80
 

 

 


           1       immediately after the incident.

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

           3   MR KEITH:  Can I ask a question now?

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have to sit down, Mr Keith.

           5       Mr Glasson is coming up.

           6                     Questions by MR GLASSON

           7   MR GLASSON:  There is a document that may give the answer to

           8       this, which, if we could look at, CE0195.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's all look at CE0195.

          10   MR GLASSON:  This is a document from Mr Suggett.  Can you

          11       see that, Ms Larrigan?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  This is from his decision log and we can see from the

          14       bottom right-hand corner, 4 August 2011, dated 7.20 and

          15       it's recorded there:

          16           "A CSM is to be contacted and attend the scene."

          17           So it seems to be his decision and the reason was:

          18           "A CSM is required in order to coordinate the

          19       various professional scientific photographers who will

          20       be required to attend the scene.  I am aware that IPCC

          21       do not have their own CSM's and as such we will utilise

          22       MPS resources to conduct the forensic exam of the scene

          23       (CSM Trish Larrigan)."

          24           So does that suggest that it was Mr Suggett's

          25       decision and at 7.20 he had decided that you should be


                                            81
 

 

 


           1       the CSM?

           2   A.  7.20, I believe, is the time of the phonecall I made to

           3       DI Suggett rather than the other way round.

           4   Q.  I think from your note there was a subsequent call from

           5       DI Suggett.  If you look at CD485, the entry for 19.20

           6       and you see:

           7           "Call to DI Suggett."

           8           Then, just above 20.54:

           9           "Call from DI Suggett."

          10           Do you see that --

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  -- "Info received"?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Does that help at all in terms of what DI Suggett was

          15       asking of you?

          16   A.  I think the message that he had created seemed to be at

          17       the same time as I was calling him at 7.20.  So his

          18       recording of that decision was probably based or was

          19       being recorded at the time we were speaking together.

          20   Q.  So it was DI's Suggett's decision that there should be

          21       a CSM?

          22   A.  After I spoke to him and asked him more about it and

          23       I said -- you know, probably asked "If you want me to

          24       come down, I can come down, I'm on my way" and sort

          25       of -- the fact that he recorded our conversation on his


                                            82
 

 

 


           1       decision log, albeit in a slightly different way, but my

           2       records were at 7.20 I called him and he obviously

           3       recorded his interpretation of that conversation in his

           4       log at the same time.

           5   Q.  He decided at 7.20 that you would be the CSM?

           6   A.  Well, I was the one on duty.  There was fairly limited

           7       options in that respect.

           8   MR GLASSON:  Thank you.  I hope that's of assistance.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where actually physically were you

          10       on duty at 7.20 then?

          11   A.  I was at my base station, which was at Barnes Green

          12       police station.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Barnes Green?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, Mr Keith, did you want to ask

          16       any other questions?

          17                  Further questions by MR KEITH

          18   MR KEITH:  I was going to actually ask about the earlier

          19       call at 18.35, CD484.

          20           The call that you note there was received from the

          21       SCD Reserve --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- requesting photos assistance only?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Somebody must have contacted the SCD Reserve in order


                                            83
 

 

 


           1       for that request to be relayed ultimately to you as the

           2       CSM?

           3   A.  The Reserve took it on themselves to call me because

           4       they weren't happy with the fact it was only

           5       a photographic request that had been made but I don't

           6       know how who they recorded.

           7   Q.  Somebody had made a request, putting aside the width of

           8       the request, somebody had taken upon themselves to

           9       contact the SCD Reserve arising out of the Ferry Lane

          10       incident?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  You were given, or rather the SCD Reserve was given some

          13       information because it says:

          14           "Firearm in situ requires photography."

          15           There's a CAD reference -- computer aided dispatch

          16       reference -- and then:

          17           "SCD8 contact."

          18   A.  They had the contact, they had been made aware of that

          19       contact which was then passed to me.

          20   Q.  So whoever informed SCD Reserve of the need for somebody

          21       to attend, obviously had some information about Trident

          22       because they were provided with a contact number --

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  -- for whoever the request was going to be passed to?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            84
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Does that indicate to you, it seems likely, that at that

           2       very early stage, 18.35, somebody at Trident had

           3       contacted the SCD Reserve to ask for this preliminary

           4       step to be taken?

           5   A.  They would -- they asked for the photographer.

           6   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You feel that that would have been

           8       the time you could have been asked to be a Crime Scene

           9       Manager; is that what you feel?

          10   A.  Somebody could have made a request for a Crime Scene

          11       Manager at that time as well.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Thank you.  I do not

          13       think anyone else.

          14           Mr Underwood, anything?

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Still no, thank you.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are now safe to escape,

          17       Ms Larrigan.  Thank you very much for assisting us and

          18       thank you to the jury for that note.

          19                      (The witness withdrew)

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Mr Cockram, please.

          21                     MR JOHN COCKRAM (sworn)

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Come forward

          23       and have a seat, Mr Cockram.

          24   A.  Thank you.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Make yourself comfortable, I know


                                            85
 

 

 


           1       you have been sitting at the back of court and now it's

           2       your time to be in the seat and answer questions from

           3       Mr Underwood.

           4                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Mr Cockram.  Can we have your

           6       full names please?

           7   A.  My name's John Cockram.

           8   Q.  I think you were a Crime Scene Manager in 2011 as well,

           9       were you?

          10   A.  Yes, I was.

          11   Q.  We heard that you are the one who took over from

          12       Ms Larrigan; is that correct?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  I think you got there just after midnight, did you,

          15       early into 5 August?

          16   A.  I did, yes.

          17   Q.  Did you have a briefing from Ms Larrigan?

          18   A.  Yes, I did.

          19   Q.  I think a number of people were present at the scene and

          20       I'll go through their names in a minute but were they

          21       present at the briefing?

          22   A.  I think the majority of them were, yes.

          23   Q.  Let me just run through those.  There's John Orford, who

          24       was a senior forensic practitioner; is that right?

          25   A.  He was definitely present.


                                            86
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So he is a forensic scientist?

           2   A.  No, he's -- a senior forensic practitioner, if you like,

           3       in rank is one below a Crime Scene Manager.  So he

           4       assists with the examination of the recovery of the

           5       crime scene, a SOCO basically, but he in particular was

           6       training to be a Crime Scene Manager.

           7   Q.  Then Michael Vaughan who was the forensic firearms

           8       expert?

           9   A.  Yes, I believe he was actually out and about on the

          10       scene and -- doing his investigation, yes.

          11   Q.  A couple of photographers were there, Mr Rankin and

          12       Mr Cowley?

          13   A.  They again were working at the scene, yes.

          14   Q.  Was Mr Sparrow there during the briefing, do you recall?

          15   A.  I don't recall.  I recall speaking to him subsequently

          16       but I don't recall him being actually at the briefing.

          17   Q.  Mr Suggett?

          18   A.  Again, sir, I don't recall.

          19   Q.  Chief Inspector Dowe?

          20   A.  No, I don't think he was, I think I only met him once

          21       later on so I don't think he was actually at the

          22       briefing.

          23   Q.  There was an Exhibits Officer there at some point,

          24       DC Payne?

          25   A.  Yes, again, he was working at the scene with you but not


                                            87
 

 

 


           1       actually at the briefing standing next to me.

           2   Q.  So to get this clear there's one Crime Scene Manager who

           3       hands over to the other one?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  There's a sort of deputy, who's, in this case,

           6       Mr Orford?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  There are Exhibits Officers around the place --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- is that right?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  What is the relationship between the Crime Scene

          13       Managers and the Exhibits Officers?

          14   A.  Exhibits Officers are employed by the various different

          15       Serious Crime Directorates to come to the scene to, if

          16       you like, act at our behest whilst we have identified

          17       what the relevant exhibits are to be removed from the

          18       scene.  They are there to actually take the exhibits,

          19       usually assisted by Scenes of Crime and at my direction

          20       and they are then, from that point on, responsible for

          21       those exhibits, from the start of the inquiry right the

          22       way through to court or to any tribunal.

          23   Q.  Right, so when we have seen guns, for example, come in

          24       elaborate exhibit bags with tapes through them and

          25       signatures on them, and so on, that's all their


                                            88
 

 

 


           1       responsibility?

           2   A.  That's right, yes.  They would not necessarily be

           3       packaging the exhibit but they will definitely take

           4       custody of the exhibits from the scene.  In some cases

           5       they do package the exhibits as well.

           6   Q.  Now, if we can look at CE218 on the screen, do we pick

           7       up the first page of your log?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Basically you say there pretty much what you have just

          10       told the jury: you are briefed by CSM Larrigan and there

          11       are people at the scene, then you get to brief facts.

          12       Is that:

          13           "NW Trident intel led operation with SO19."

          14   A.  That's correct, yes.

          15   Q.  At 1815:

          16           "IC3 suspect followed in a minicab [arrow] west in

          17       Ferry Lane."

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  "Hard stop authorised.  Suspect got out of car in

          20       possession of pistol inside a sock.  Believed suspect

          21       fired a shot?  Or threatened officer with weapon."

          22           Yes?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  What was the strength of conviction of what you were

          25       being told there, in your understanding?


                                            89
 

 

 


           1   A.  My understanding was that this was the evidence or the

           2       information that Ms Larrigan had actually managed to

           3       assimilate during the time that she was there and she

           4       was passing on a composite, if you like, briefing of

           5       what she's assimilated up until that point.

           6   Q.  Thank you.  Then:

           7           "One officer fired several shots hitting the suspect

           8       who fell to the pavement.  Suspect firearm thrown onto

           9       grass verge believed by police."

          10           Again, can you help us with the degree of conviction

          11       that that was conveyed to you?

          12   A.  Again, that was a hypothesis.

          13   Q.  Then running down the page, if we jump to about

          14       three-quarters of the way down:

          15           "Initial assessment of scene, strategy" --

          16           What was the word after strategy?

          17   A.  "Establish".

          18   Q.  Thank you:

          19           "... plan has been recorded by CSM Larrigan in

          20       consultation with IPCC and DPS."

          21           Then:

          22           "Strategy is to:

          23           "Establish sequence of events

          24           "Cause of death

          25           "Establish nature of ensure sustained by officer."


                                            90
 

 

 


           1           What follows that?

           2   A.  It's:

           3           "Recovered non-police issue firearm an LBW."

           4           A lethal barrelled weapon, and:

           5           "Has it been recently discharged?"

           6   Q.  Right.  Just to get an overview here.  You were there

           7       from a little after midnight until, I think, 7 o'clock

           8       the next morning; is that right?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  By 7 o'clock the next day, POLSA team had not turned up,

          11       had it?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  By the time you left, had anybody interfered with or in

          14       any way touched the inside of the minicab, to your

          15       knowledge?

          16   A.  No.

          17   Q.  Would you accept what Ms Larrigan told the jury, that so

          18       far as the contents of the minicab were concerned, with

          19       the whole bunch of question marks about what had

          20       happened here, what was in the minicab was to be treated

          21       as potentially valuable evidence until proved otherwise,

          22       if you like?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  So far as you're aware, was there any point at which

          25       a decision was made by anyone that the contents of the


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           1       minicab were to be disregarded?

           2   A.  No, not at all.  It was my understanding that

           3       Ms Larrigan had attended the scene, obviously, and she'd

           4       gone through her assessment of the scene, established

           5       what I called the hot spots, ie the things that needed

           6       to be done, they had been listed for me.  She had listed

           7       what she'd completed and I was given a list of things

           8       that I was to consider and continue with.

           9   Q.  You progressed the things you had been asked to

          10       progress?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  The photography, the polecam; that sort of thing?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  If we look back at CE217, the second page of your crime

          15       scene log, you've got contact details there.  So, as far

          16       as you were concerned, the SIO was DI Peter Suggett, was

          17       it?

          18   A.  That was my understanding, yes.

          19   Q.  If we go forward to CE220, an entry -- is that 4.10 or

          20       4.16?

          21   A.  That's 4.10.

          22   Q.  You talk there about bags and then a call to the

          23       Coroner's officer to arrange undertaker's removal to

          24       Haringey mortuary.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            92
 

 

 


           1   Q.  A call to COO?

           2   A.  That's the Central Operations Office; that's our

           3       forensic operations.

           4   Q.  That's you arranging the 360-degree cameras, is it?

           5   A.  That's right, yes.

           6   Q.  Did you know at that stage you would be offduty at

           7       7 o'clock?

           8   A.  Yes, I was.  It was my intention to leave.  I had taken

           9       the scene to a certain point and then it was my

          10       intention to leave, for somebody else to come and take

          11       over.

          12   Q.  This was something you were arranging to happen after

          13       you were leaving?

          14   A.  That's correct, yes, because my intention was to have

          15       this done in daylight because it's more relevant.

          16   Q.  Then you get:

          17           "DI Suggett to book and brief POLSA to attend

          18       scene."

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Is that 08.00?

          21   A.  Yes, 08.00.

          22   Q.  So, again, DI Suggett was to book the POLSA team to

          23       attend after you left; is that the point?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Does that mean he was to brief them at the scene?


                                            93
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's my understanding, yes, that's what -- that would

           2       usually happen.  The POLSA, who is the Police Search

           3       Advisor, with his specialist searchers would attend the

           4       scene and they would be briefed, sometimes by the

           5       Exhibits Officer or sometimes by the Senior

           6       Investigating Officer at the scene, as to what the

           7       requirements are and then the POLSA team would search

           8       the scene.

           9   Q.  Right.  Can we take it you weren't told of the

          10       significance of the shoe box?

          11   A.  No.

          12   Q.  Were you aware of any significant blood spatter?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  Again, do you agree with Ms Larrigan that that's

          15       something which was, as it were, in the potential?

          16   A.  Yes, it was a potential, yes, but it wasn't a specific

          17       task.  If, for example, you want to have blood pattern

          18       analysis at the crime scene, that would be identified as

          19       a specific task and I would have been asked to continue

          20       with it.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would you like to break there, at

          22       that point?

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  I have almost finished.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, we'll finish evidence.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps I could just get this clear then.


                                            94
 

 

 


           1       It's come to the point where you left.  You obviously

           2       took the handover from Ms Larrigan.  Was there anyone

           3       for you to hand over to at 7 o'clock?

           4   A.  No.  Not at 7 o'clock there wasn't.  But it was my

           5       intention to complete the operational briefing notes,

           6       which you referred to at the end of Ms Larrigan's

           7       evidence.  I put some more notes onto that.  It was my

           8       intention that the things that I had left that needed

           9       doing was an instruction for a Crime Scene Manager to

          10       continue with those things.

          11   Q.  So we know that Malcolm Nott became Crime Scene Manager

          12       on, I think, 9 August?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  We also know that Ms Larrigan attended the postmortem on

          15       the 5th.  But are you aware of any Crime Scene Manager

          16       actually managing the crime scene after you left?

          17   A.  No.

          18   Q.  That's because no one did, isn't it?

          19   A.  No.

          20   Q.  Is that a mistake on the part of the police?

          21   A.  Most definitely.

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Well on that note, what

          24       we'll do is have our hour break now.  Thank you very

          25       much.  So I'll ask for the cameras to be turned off and


                                            95
 

 

 


           1       for the jury to leave us to return for 2 o'clock,

           2       please.

           3                   (In the absence of the jury)

       

           7                  (In the presence of the jury)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We are all

           9       seated.

          10           Mr Underwood, did you think of any more questions?

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Mansfield?

          13                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon.  I'm Michael Mansfield,

          15       I represent the Mark Duggan family.

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  Just a few topics relating to crime scene management.

          18           First of all, the crime itself, if it were to be

          19       such, has been committed at -- or the shooting -- at

          20       6.12.  Can I just put you in that scene for a moment?

          21           We have heard there is some form of protocol and so

          22       on.  What I want to ask you is: can you help us as to

          23       who you think was responsible for the crime scene before

          24       the first Crime Scene Manager arrived -- which wasn't

          25       you, I appreciate that, it was the last witness, she


                                            97
 

 

 


           1       arrived just before 9 o'clock.

           2   A.  It could have been any number of people, in all truth.

           3   Q.  Did you discover who it actually was?

           4   A.  Did I discover?

           5   Q.  Yes.

           6   A.  No I didn't, no.

           7   Q.  Was it of interest to you to know who was in charge

           8       before crime scene management got to the scene?

           9   A.  By the time I got to the scene, obviously Ms Larrigan

          10       had taken control and I was more focused on what her

          11       handover was to me, sir.

          12   Q.  Yes, I appreciate that.  But you don't ask any questions

          13       about what happened before she took control?  The reason

          14       I ask you this is some of the things you have written in

          15       your note, but I'll come to that.

          16           Who should be -- in that period of time, before

          17       contact is made and she decides to go herself, who at

          18       the scene should be responsible for summoning crime

          19       scene management?

          20   A.  In the usual course of events, once a local duty

          21       officer, ie a uniformed Inspector, attends the scene

          22       with the police, in this case the firearms team, that

          23       are already at the scene, once he attends and control is

          24       taken of the scene and cordons are put in place and the

          25       scene is consolidated, whoever is there at that stage,


                                            98
 

 

 


           1       the senior officer, whoever that person may be, whether

           2       it's the senior office from CO19 or whether it's the

           3       senior officer from Borough, it's at that stage, once

           4       it's consolidated and secured -- that's when I would

           5       expect the request for a Crime Scene Manager to go in.

           6   Q.  Does the person have to be there, actually have arrived,

           7       the senior officer or can it be done over the telephone?

           8   A.  It can be done over the telephone, yes.

           9   Q.  Again, coming back to this scene because really the

          10       reason I'm asking you the questions is because there's

          11       a series of different officers who seem to be, as it

          12       were, saying it's someone else's actual responsibility,

          13       even phoning IPCC at an early stage.  So, looking at

          14       this particular scene, as you have done, who should it

          15       have been who rang early on to say "This is a crime

          16       scene, we need a Crime Scene Manager here"?

          17   A.  As I have explained, sir, it could be any number of

          18       people.  It could be the Borough Inspector, one of the

          19       firearms officers, it could be any number of people.

          20   Q.  The Tactical Firearms Commander who says he took charge,

          21       really he has an obligation to ask for crime scene

          22       management?

          23   A.  I would expect that to be the case, yes, if he had

          24       thought of it.

          25   Q.  He's been saying, when asked about these questions,


                                            99
 

 

 


           1       well, I'm nothing to do with investigation, it's someone

           2       else's job.

           3   MR KEITH:  Is that a comment or a question?

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  It is a question.  I am just putting to you

           5       what the observation is and I put it in colloquial

           6       language, for which --

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you agree with that?  It was

           8       a comment but it becomes a question if he then says at

           9       the end of that "Do you agree?"

          10   A.  Yes, in a way it's a collective responsibility because

          11       this particular incident, it is out of the norm, it's

          12       an unusual circumstance and there are agencies involved

          13       that are outside of the normal people that would be at

          14       the scene.

          15           In the normal course of events, for example a basic

          16       murder or whatever -- if there is such a thing as

          17       a basic murder -- it would be, as I said, the duty

          18       officer or the Senior Investigating Officer from the

          19       serious crime unit, or it could be a member of staff on

          20       what we call the homicide assessment team, which is

          21       a pro-active car that goes out from the serious crime

          22       unit.  They usually call the Crime Scene Manager at the

          23       same time as the HAT car, as we call it, is called.

          24           So there are certain procedures in place for the bog

          25       standard type of crime, serious crime, but in my


                                           100
 

 

 


           1       experience, in these sort of incidents it does become

           2       somewhat blurred, yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There isn't a nice practice system

           4       whereby someone in a control car of a four-car convoy of

           5       CO19 has a responsibility of saying "Right, if

           6       an incident happens we then contact Crime Scene

           7       Managers"?

           8   A.  Not in my experience, no.  You usually rely on the

           9       goodwill of somebody with the common sense to realise

          10       that we exist and then call us to the scene.  Whether

          11       that's our Central Operations Office, which has been

          12       referred to, or whether it's the SCD1 Reserve, those

          13       staff from both units sometimes do call us, yes.

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  It may not be common for there to be a police

          15       shooting but it's certainly not unknown, is it, for

          16       police to be responsible for a death, whether it's --

          17       what kind of death it is is another matter, but this has

          18       happened before, hasn't it?

          19   A.  Yes, it has, yes.

          20   Q.  In London before?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  So there must be some form of procedure whereby the

          23       person who is responsible -- let's say CO19 are

          24       responsible -- there must be some procedure whereby,

          25       knowing there's a potential crime scene and so on, that


                                           101
 

 

 


           1       somebody takes charge, gets the crime scene management

           2       team there and all the rest of it?

           3   A.  All I can say, sir, is that I'm on the other end of that

           4       in as much as I know when I get the call that that's

           5       when I react to that particular call.  Who's responsible

           6       for calling me, that is another matter and outside of my

           7       remit.

           8   Q.  All right, I won't take more time with you then on that

           9       topic.  Then could we have your note of the briefing you

          10       received.  It's CE0218, please.

          11           Now, I appreciate you have been through this but

          12       I just want to come to one point.  You see you've got

          13       the points that arise out of the briefing, or "Brief

          14       facts" is what's written there, isn't it?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  So that's a very clear heading, "facts", isn't it?

          17   A.  Yes, "Brief facts" because they can be most more than

          18       brief facts because we don't know all the facts at the

          19       time.

          20   Q.  But they are facts?

          21   A.  Yes, as they are understood at the time, yes.

          22   Q.  As you understood.  I don't run through them, the jury

          23       have seen what they are "Suspect out of car", and so on,

          24       "Several shots", "One officer hitting the suspect", and

          25       so on.  Then you have "Suspect firearm thrown onto grass


                                           102
 

 

 


           1       verge, believe by police", under the heading "Brief

           2       facts", right?

           3           Is that right?

           4   A.  Yes, it is, yes.  Sorry.

           5   Q.  I know what you have indicated to my learned friend

           6       Mr Underwood earlier, but everything you wrote there --

           7       have written there -- at the time you believed to be

           8       facts, didn't you?

           9   A.  We subsequently clarified the point around how the

          10       firearm may have got to where it was but --

          11   Q.  Sorry.  When you wrote this --

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  -- on the night, yes?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  At the time?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  It was not qualified in any way as a hypothesis, was it?

          18   A.  Not in my notes it's not, no.

          19   Q.  No.  So, did you tell anyone else that this was

          20       a firearm thrown onto the grass verge possibly by

          21       police?  Did you pass that on to anyone else?

          22   A.  I can't be sure, sir, but I probably did, it may well

          23       appear on the operational briefing but I cannot be sure

          24       without seeing it.

          25   Q.  All right.  When did you clarify this?


                                           103
 

 

 


           1   A.  (Pause)

           2           No facts were given to me that -- to the contrary so

           3       I couldn't clarify it.

           4   Q.  So when does it become a hypothesis as opposed to

           5       a brief fact?

           6   A.  I don't really understand the question, sir, I'm sorry.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you always believe throughout

           8       the time until you went off duty that the police may

           9       have thrown the firearm into the grass?

          10   A.  That was my understanding, sir, yes.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That remains your belief?

          12   A.  Yes, it does.

          13   MR MANSFIELD:  Then I take no further point on that, except

          14       this: of course, you come on duty -- you must have

          15       wanted to know who did it and why, if it was a believed

          16       fact, didn't you?

          17   A.  No, sir.  Because I had received the briefing from

          18       Ms Larrigan that the firearm had already been dealt with

          19       so in a way it was not really in my mind.  For the task

          20       that I was given, it had been dealt with and taken from

          21       the scene, so I was concentrating on what the tasks were

          22       that I had to deal with that evening.

          23   Q.  Because you would want to know -- it was a firearm

          24       scene, wasn't it, that you were dealing with, even if

          25       the firearm had gone?


                                           104
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  So that, in the context of a firearms scene and residue,

           3       you might want to know where the gun had been before it

           4       was thrown, wouldn't you?

           5   A.  Not within the tasks that I was given, sir, no, it had

           6       no relevance.

           7   Q.  What were the tacks that you were given?

           8   A.  I've listed the tasks that I was asked to complete at

           9       the crime scene.

          10   Q.  None of them concern the movements of the firearm?

          11   A.  No, because, as I said, that had been previously

          12       photographed and dealt with and made safe prior to my

          13       arrival.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where had it come from, I think, is

          15       really one of the questions.  You got the end result,

          16       there's the firearm, that's been dealt with and made

          17       safe, but we're linking it back through either Mr Duggan

          18       or the taxi -- that's why you preserve the taxi as

          19       a crime scene, isn't it?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes --

          21   MR MANSFIELD:  The photography was going on while you were

          22       there, was it not?

          23   A.  It was virtually finished, as I recall, yes.

          24   Q.  In relation to the photography, I wonder if we could

          25       have -- I don't know where it is, it's the photograph


                                           105
 

 

 


           1       produced by Mr Nott last week from his file, which is

           2       the best reproduction from the 360 photograph.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Into the cab?

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  I don't know where that is.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the worst one.

           6   MR MANSFIELD:  That's the worst one, yes.  It's that image.

           7       We have a better one of that.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We don't know where the better one

           9       is, he left it behind.

          10   MR MANSFIELD:  He left it behind.  I am not going to take

          11       too much time.

          12           Could you just look at that photograph.  What you

          13       can't see on that photograph is that there's a rucked up

          14       carpet in the foreground on the ground between the seats

          15       and in the distance there's a box.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  I want to ask you: did you look inside the minicab

          18       yourself?  This is the first photograph maybe that we've

          19       got of it?

          20   A.  Yes, I did.

          21   Q.  You did?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Is that what you saw?

          24   A.  I recall seeing a box, yes.

          25   Q.  You do.  In that position?


                                           106
 

 

 


           1   A.  (Pause)

           2           I can't really recall, sir, but I recall seeing

           3       a box, whether it was in that position or not, I don't

           4       know.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where is the photograph, the

           6       original one, do we have it?

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  I can have it brought to court in ten

           8       minutes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.  I think we ought to

          10       have it.

          11   MR KEITH:  I think we have the original because I think my

          12       learned friends had it scanned and that's just been sent

          13       back.  (Handed)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the one.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  I told you "within ten minutes".

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's very impressive!

          17           This is the better version of the photograph.  Have

          18       a look at that.  I think Mr Mansfield talks about

          19       a carpet rolled up, I think he meant a bag.  Do you see

          20       that view in?

          21   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We see much clearer the box; is that

          23       what you can remember seeing?

          24   MR MANSFIELD:  I think it can be put on docucam, so

          25       everybody can see it.


                                           107
 

 

 


           1   A.  I could hold it like that.

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  I am just speaking words I've been given so

           3       I am not sure whether it can or not.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's leave the technology to one

           5       side for the moment.  I think what we might do is

           6       actually get come copies of this in its better form for

           7       us all, so the jury have this better form of photograph.

           8       Behind the seat there, can you see a bag in the

           9       photograph?

          10   A.  This one here, sir (indicates)?

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you note that?

          14   A.  No, I didn't.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you actually get into the cab?

          16   A.  No, I didn't.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You just stood outside and looked

          18       in?

          19   A.  Yes.  Part of -- as I think Ms Larrigan explained, part

          20       of a scene assessment to start with is going through the

          21       scene to identify what the important aspects of the

          22       scene are and identifying what I call the hot spots are.

          23       This wasn't identified to me as a particular hot spot

          24       so, in my own mind, I wasn't paying much attention.

          25           But that said, when I am going through the scene


                                           108
 

 

 


           1       with Ms Larrigan and going through the scene on my own

           2       with my Scenes of Crime Officers as well obviously

           3       I looked in the vehicle and I saw it there, but it was

           4       not of prime importance to me because that vehicle was

           5       going to be dealt with subsequently at a later date.

           6   MR MANSFIELD:  We are getting somebody's hands.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's being done.  It's even worse.

           8       There we are, that's getting better.

           9   MR MANSFIELD:  Could it move on the right.  There's the box.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Across to the left, please?  Behind

          11       the seat, up a bit and there's a bag.

          12   MR MANSFIELD:  There are at least three items there: the

          13       bag; the carpet; a box with possibly the top of a box.

          14       So whose responsibility would it be at that stage,

          15       because no one much has done it before, we are now at

          16       midnight when you have come on, and the photographer is

          17       there, many hours have gone by, nearly six hours have

          18       gone by.  Did you feel it was your responsibility to

          19       make a note of what -- this scene, as well as the

          20       photographs?

          21   A.  If I had been at the scene to start with and doing my

          22       visual assessment of the scene, as Ms Larrigan has done,

          23       it would have been included in one of my visual

          24       assessments as a hot spot to be dealt with.  But that

          25       wasn't relayed to me.


                                           109
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Right.  It would be clear to anyone, would it not,

           2       dealing with this overall scene, that one of -- I use

           3       your language -- one the hot spots of this crime scene

           4       is the minicab itself.

           5   A.  Most definitely, yes.

           6   Q.  Because of course there's residue, blood splattering,

           7       other traces that come from the cab, possibly another

           8       weapon?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  When you come to look at it, why do you make no actual

          11       notes about what you see in the cab at that time?

          12   A.  Because up until that point, I would have seen that as

          13       going back over what another Crime Scene Manager has

          14       already done, made a visual assessment of it, worked out

          15       what the hot spots were and, as a result of those

          16       observations, worked out what the recovery strategy was

          17       going to be.  That's what I had been given as strategy

          18       that had been worked out with the IPCC and the DPS and

          19       Crime Scene Manager Larrigan before I had arrived.  So

          20       I was working to a brief, if you like.

          21   Q.  As we have heard, the position is that her log is not

          22       handed to you, is it?

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  Looking at your notes, it doesn't appear that the

          25       minicab itself is regarded as a hot spot, is it?


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           1   A.  No, it's not.  But it will be dealt with -- later on in

           2       the -- by forensic examination it would have been taken

           3       to Perivale to our specialist facility where it will be

           4       forensically examined there.

           5   Q.  It may be that you are not able to help because you go

           6       off at 7 o'clock in the morning, but is it normal

           7       practice for a Crime Scene Manager to go off duty

           8       without knowing that there's another one coming on?

           9   A.  Yes and no.  The document which has been called the

          10       operational briefing notes, which is the document

          11       I added to after Ms Larrigan had written, that is used

          12       as a handover document to Crime Scene Manager to Crime

          13       Scene Manager, if there's no handover at the scene.

          14           So I, on that document, I wrote down what I had done

          15       and what had been completed and more importantly what

          16       needed to be done, what the expectations were that

          17       needed to be done that morning later on after 8 o'clock,

          18       ie the photograph -- sorry, the 360 photography in

          19       daylight, the POLSA search for ballistic material at the

          20       scene and then the vehicles to be removed to the pound.

          21       Because I left all the vehicles in place for that to

          22       happen in daylight.

          23   Q.  Yes, I appreciate.  But the question really is: do you

          24       leave the scene without in fact ensuring that there is

          25       another Crime Scene Manager there?


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           1   A.  No -- sorry, yes.  That's quite common, that's not

           2       unusual.

           3   Q.  Is it?

           4   A.  Yes, it is.

           5   Q.  Because on this particular occasion, of course, the

           6       minicab is removed, then someone thinks better of it,

           7       20 minutes later, and brings it back again.

           8   A.  Yes, I'm aware of that, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  That shouldn't have happened like that, should it?

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  Is that because there wasn't a Crime Scene Manager

          12       there?

          13   A.  Yes, but I can understand why it happened.  My

          14       expectation was, through filling out that briefing note,

          15       was that a Crime Scene Manager in the morning, which

          16       would have been Mr Nott, should have attended that scene

          17       to finish off things that needed doing.  Had he been

          18       there, number 1, the POLSA search wouldn't have taken

          19       place at the vehicle, they would have been literally

          20       searching for the ballistic material in the wider scene.

          21           Number 2, the 360 would have been done while the

          22       vehicles were still in situ.

          23           Number 3, the vehicles wouldn't have been taken

          24       until that had happened.

          25   Q.  Just pinpointing where this seems to have gone off the


                                           112
 

 

 


           1       rails, who should have ensured a Crime Scene Manager was

           2       there?

           3   A.  As is usual with these things I believe it's

           4       a collective responsibility.  Without being critical of

           5       my colleagues, maybe Mr Nott should have realised from

           6       my briefing document that these things needed doing but,

           7       in his defence, he may well have looked at the facts and

           8       realised in the normal course of events, when we're

           9       dealing with murders and what have are you, the Exhibit

          10       Officers and the Senior Investigating Officers are more,

          11       if you like, au fait with the forensic procedure that we

          12       will undertake as regards POLSA searches and regards

          13       taking vehicles to the pound.

          14           What I'm basically saying is the Exhibits Officer

          15       may not have realised that you do not POLSA search

          16       vehicles at a scene.  That comes later, after other --

          17       you know blood pattern analysis and gunshot residue at

          18       a forensic facility.  So that's one area.

          19           The second area is that the POLSA, the police search

          20       advisor who's in charge of his searching team, should

          21       really have understood that you don't POLSA search

          22       vehicles at the scene.  But, as I say, if the Crime

          23       Scene Manager had been there none of that would have

          24       happened but unfortunately it did.  So that's why I say

          25       it's a collective sort of responsibility.


                                           113
 

 

 


           1   Q.  That at a certain level.  But overall, in order that

           2       these things don't happen again, who is it that really

           3       should have responsibility for the scene once you go to

           4       ensure these things don't go this way again?

           5   A.  The communication has broken down in this case, quite

           6       plainly, in a number of areas because it has created

           7       confusion.  In essence, the answer to that question is,

           8       once a Crime Scene Manager is deployed to the scene, it

           9       is handed over, which isn't the ideal situation and

          10       never used to be the situation.  Ideally, the Crime

          11       Scene Manager should stay with the scene from cradle to

          12       grave, right from the start to the end but unfortunately

          13       we are not allowed to do that anymore so things do get

          14       lost in the transition periods and the handover, from

          15       one to t'other and from myself to Mr Nott and then the

          16       misunderstanding of people that were at the scene that

          17       we perceived were in charge, the communication has

          18       broken down basically.

          19           But once a Crime Scene Manager has been deployed it

          20       should be the Crime Scene Manager all the way through to

          21       the end of the scene.

          22   Q.  Who is responsible for ensuring that that occurs?

          23   A.  The Crime Scene Manager.

          24   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

          25               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER


                                           114
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That night, for those seven hours

           2       that you were there, where were you?  Were you sitting

           3       mostly -- do you have a vehicle you drive into the outer

           4       cordon.

           5   A.  I do have a vehicle.  I was actually at the scene doing

           6       these tasks I have detailed in my notes, sir, for

           7       example examining the body, wrapping the body, and what

           8       have you.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What was the weather like?

          10   A.  As I recall, it was quite windy and damp.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Blood spatters on the outside of

          12       a minicab?

          13   A.  Not raining, sir, but damp, like dew damp.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I thought we might hear some

          15       evidence that it might have been raining; you don't

          16       think so?

          17   A.  I don't think it was.  There was a dew point, it was

          18       damp but I don't think that it had been raining, no.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Obviously you didn't touch the door

          20       of the minicab?

          21   A.  The sliding door was open, sir.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was there any reason why you

          23       couldn't get people there any earlier and you had to

          24       wait for seven hours to do nothing until the next day.

          25   A.  The idea of doing it was waiting for daylight so we


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           1       could take daylight 360 photography and any detailed

           2       search is obviously far better done in daylight when

           3       you're looking for tiny scraps of ballistic material.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The 360 photography, which led to

           5       this map that we have all been looking at, that took

           6       place after the event.

           7   A.  That's CAM bureau (?), that's computer assisted imaging,

           8       that's different.  The 360 photography is taking stills

           9       of the photograph -- sorry stills of the crime scene

          10       then stitched together with software.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, right, let's continue on.

          12           Mr Stern you have some questions.

          13                      Questions by MR STERN

          14   MR STERN:  Just one matter, if I may.  Could you look,

          15       please, at CD6456.  If we go to the top, we'll see

          16       that's an email from you to the gentleman you have just

          17       mentioned, Mr Nott.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  This is 14 September 2011.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  You say:

          22           "Malcolm, sorry for the late reply but as you know

          23       I have been a little busy of late ... ploughing my way

          24       through my emails.

          25           "For what it's worth I was briefed that the scene


                                           116
 

 

 


           1       photography has been completed under Trish's

           2       supervision."

           3           "Trish", is that Ms Larrigan, who we have just heard

           4       from?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  "I assumed that this would have included inside the cab.

           7           "I was to supervise 360 and possibly polecam (as you

           8       know I decided to delay this until daylight)."

           9           I don't know what it is."

          10   A.  Pole cam is literally a camera on a pole, sir.  It's

          11       strapped to the back of the vehicle that goes up 20 to

          12       30 metres to give you an overview of the scene from

          13       a different perspective like a seagull's perspective.

          14   Q.  Then you say, it does not tell in your notes, but:

          15           "Trish told me that there was a flash search of the

          16       minicab taken prior to me supervising its removal (which

          17       you know was also delayed for the above reason) so any

          18       findings should be in Trish's notes."

          19           You have then told us you didn't go into the minicab

          20       but you had understood there had been some sort of

          21       what's called a flash search, whatever that is?

          22   A.  It's an initial -- it's part of a visual assessment,

          23       it's an initial visual assessment.  If I was at that

          24       crime scene, I would call it a flash search or

          25       an initial visual assessment.  Again, looking for the


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           1       hot spots within that scene, I would have poked my head

           2       into the car, I would like to see what was there,

           3       I might even pop the boot to see if there was anything

           4       in the boot, again because you are looking for weapons

           5       et cetera, et cetera, that could be important to

           6       a particular scene and it's important to identify those

           7       early and deal with them as the firearm was dealt with.

           8       If there was something else in the vehicle that was

           9       important it could be dealt with there and then.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just in case there's another firearm

          11       in the boot?

          12   A.  Yes.  That's what I mean by assumed it had been

          13       completed to that stage when I took over.

          14   MR STERN:  You then go on to say:

          15           "I recall looking into the cab and I believe I saw

          16       a box on the floor in between the two sets of seats."

          17           You have looked at the photograph and can you

          18       confirm it was in the area that we can see in that

          19       photograph?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Then you say:

          22           "Wasn't the cab photographed before it was examined

          23       and searched at Perivale?"

          24   A.  That's a sort of rhetorical question really.

          25   Q.  Can I ask you this: if you look at the bottom of the


                                           118
 

 

 


           1       page, 6456, there's an email from Malcolm Nott that we

           2       have to go over the page to see --

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the one you are answering at

           4       the top, isn't it?

           5   MR STERN:  You're copied into this.  Obviously because this

           6       is -- as you say, sir, the answer is the one we have

           7       just looked at.  6547.  Can I just ask you about this,

           8       Malcolm Nott says this:

           9           "A bullet was found by POLSA officers in a plastic

          10       bag on the seat in the rear of the vehicle but we can

          11       find no documentation (or photography at the scene or

          12       POLSA notes) that locates this."

          13           Is that something you were aware of or is that

          14       an error, was it found on the seat or on the floor as we

          15       can see in that photograph.

          16   A.  I've got no idea.

          17   Q.  You don't know at all?

          18   A.  No.

          19   Q.  That wouldn't be your role to know about that?

          20   A.  No.  Because the assessment has happened before I have

          21       actually got to the scene so I'm dealing with the things

          22       that have been -- I have been tasked with and searching

          23       the vehicle wasn't one of the things I had been tasked

          24       with.  I had assumed it had happened previously, as part

          25       of the assessment identifying hot spots.


                                           119
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The task about picking up bullets

           2       and such like had happened after you had left at

           3       7 o'clock?

           4   A.  Yes.  Whilst I was at the scene we identified one more

           5       cartridge case that we found that was marked and

           6       photographed, but then you are looking at the wider

           7       scene for bullets because there were still potentially

           8       bullets and maybe one cartridge case outstanding and

           9       they could have been in part of the wider scene and the

          10       decision was to wait until daylight and employ the

          11       search specialists to come and help find all of those

          12       fragments.

          13   MR STERN:  I wonder if you could have another look at that

          14       photograph again because it is the best copy of it.

          15       Just so we are clear about it, this is a photograph at

          16       the scene not at Perivale.

          17   A.  That's of the scene, yes.

          18   Q.  That's taken on 5 August presumably?

          19   A.  Yes.  If he come back out, sir, I think you can see it's

          20       in daylight as well.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that the daylight one?

          22   MR STERN:  That's daylight, so I've assumed it's 5 August.

          23   A.  That may not be daylight actually.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think you told somebody else it

          25       was midnight.


                                           120
 

 

 


           1   A.  You can see the dark sky.

           2   MR STERN:  I'm told this is midnight so midnight on the 4th

           3       just going into the 5th.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Stern.

           7           Mr Butt?

           8                       Questions by MR BUTT

           9   MR BUTT:  Could we look at the role of the Tactical Firearms

          10       Commander after a shooting, please, CD029680, please?

          11       This is going to be the Metropolitan Police Standard

          12       Operating Procedure at page 142 dealing with

          13       post-incident responsibilities.  The third bullet point

          14       there, one of the roles of the TFC is to ensure the

          15       scene is protected and that evidence is preserved until

          16       the arrival of the IIO; is that correct?

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  Then just looking a little --

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The IIO, meaning, of course?

          20   A.  The incident investigating --

          21   MR BUTT:  I think it's Initial Investigating Officer.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I was going to say the Independent

          24       Investigating Officer but it's the Initial Investigating

          25       Officer; it that correct?


                                           121
 

 

 


           1   MR BUTT:  Which in this case was Mr Lucas; is that right?

           2   A.  I'm sorry, I missed the question.

           3   Q.  That was Mr Lucas, in this case; is that right?

           4   A.  I believe so, I don't really know, sir.

           5   Q.  A little further down:

           6           "Informs the force control room, DPS and the

           7       Strategic Firearms Commander."

           8           Yes?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Then looking at the IIO on the next page, 8.8.4.  The

          11       Initial Investigating Officer, amongst his or her

          12       responsibilities, the last on the page:

          13           "... ensures effective scene management."

          14           Is that correct?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  But what the Tactical Firearms Commander must not do,

          17       and this is what I think Mr Mansfield was referring to

          18       in terms of the Tactical Firearms Commander's evidence,

          19       is to involve himself in the investigation, should he?

          20       As in terms of the investigation of the shooting that

          21       has just occurred.

          22   A.  You're sort of getting into realms that are not really

          23       in my knowledge.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On that previous page, could we go

          25       back to that again, please, Mr Scott?  Stop there.


                                           122
 

 

 


           1       A bit further down:

           2           "He should complete initial factual notes and hands

           3       copy to the PIM."

           4           Is that something which is done at the scene or is

           5       that something which is all part of the post-incident

           6       procedure?

           7   A.  I've never known that done, sir, not to a Crime Scene

           8       Manager.

           9   MR BUTT:  I believe that that is part of the post-incident

          10       procedure, sir.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll find that out.

          12   A.  If it is, I've never received those notes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have never had a nice, initial

          14       factual note?

          15   A.  Any previous scenes I've been to, no.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  As the crime scene manager, it's

          17       quite helpful to have some idea of what has taken, the

          18       crime scene that you're managing.

          19   A.  Most definitely, yes, but that's not normally the case,

          20       unfortunately.

          21   MR BUTT:  Of course the other requirement of the procedure

          22       is the Tactical Firearms Commander needs to be stood

          23       down as soon as possible to be replaced by the Initial

          24       Investigating Officer and then he and the other

          25       principal officers must leave the scene; is that right?


                                           123
 

 

 


           1   A.  That would make sense, yes.

           2   Q.  In this case, we know that by 7.20, a Crime Scene

           3       Manager had been requested by DI Suggett; are you aware

           4       of that?

           5   A.  Just through listening to Ms Larrigan's evidence this

           6       morning, yes.

           7   Q.  That was also at about the same time that the Initial

           8       Investigating Officer arrived at the scene; were you

           9       aware of that or not?

          10   A.  It would seem so but I was not aware of that, no.

          11   MR BUTT:  Thank you very much.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, I think Mr Glasson next.

          13   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

          15                      Questions by MR KEITH

          16   MR KEITH:  When you arrived at the scene, there were

          17       a number of officers present --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- and investigators, from whom you received a briefing,

          20       you walked around, with Patricia Larrigan, your Crime

          21       Scene Manager predecessor --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- and you were able to understand what, in outline,

          24       might have occurred.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           124
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You were asked about the meaning of the expression brief

           2       facts.  Was it your job to determine, for all purposes,

           3       what had happened or to carry out certain limits

           4       forensic tasks?

           5   A.  A bit of both, really, because obviously one of the main

           6       strategies of a forensic investigation is to establish

           7       a sequence of events.  Now, obviously, as a Crime Scene

           8       Manager, you try to milk as many people at the scene as

           9       you can for information.  Sometimes it's forthcoming and

          10       sometimes it's not.  But I always think it's good

          11       practice to listen to what people have to say and then

          12       in a way metaphorically wrap it up and put it in your

          13       back pocket and then look at the scene to tell you what

          14       the scene is telling you.  So it's a bit of both really.

          15   Q.  You have used the word "information".  Do you understand

          16       by information that what you received was necessarily

          17       accurate or correct?

          18   A.  It's no more than that, it's information.  Because

          19       usually, even in a normal bog standard -- I keep calling

          20       it that -- a murder inquiry for example, usually the

          21       main witnesses have been whisked away and they are going

          22       to be debriefed and the significant witnesses, which is

          23       on tape and what have you.  So you never really get the

          24       story until some time afterwards and there's pressure

          25       upon you to actually get on with the scene, you actually


                                           125
 

 

 


           1       have to start it.

           2   Q.  The position is you need some information in order to

           3       assist you carrying out your functions?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  But it's not your job to determine for all purposes what

           6       actually happened?

           7   A.  No.

           8   Q.  When you arrived at the scene, there was, as I have

           9       said, a number of officers present.  Did you know

          10       whether or not the investigation had been declared to be

          11       an IPCC investigation by the time you arrived?

          12   A.  No, I knew the IPCC had been informed and were there.

          13       My experience told me that they would take on the

          14       inquiry but I wasn't actually informed of that fact

          15       formally, no.

          16   Q.  If we look at CE217, we can see that, included in the

          17       list of persons under contact details, there is the IPCC

          18       SIO, the Senior Investigating Officer, Colin Sparrow?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Over the page, we can see at CE218, right at the top:

          21           "Also on scene and included in that list is IPCC SIO

          22       Colin Sparrow."

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Do you recall there being present at the scene a man

          25       called Mr Kirkpatrick?


                                           126
 

 

 


           1   A.  No.

           2   Q.  All right.  Further down that page, CE218, starting with

           3       the words "Initial assessment of scene":

           4           "Strategy established.  Plan has been recorded by

           5       CSM Larrigan in consultation with IPCC and DPS."

           6           Who did you understand to be the personnel or the

           7       person at the IPCC with whom that strategy had been

           8       agreed?

           9   A.  The names of the two individuals that I had by the side

          10       of IPCC and DPS at the start, Mr Suggett --

          11   Q.  You understood that those senior officers had agreed

          12       this strategy?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Right.  When you arrived, when we look at the top of

          15       page CE219, we can see the word "Actions to be completed

          16       under my supervision"; what did you mean by "actions"?

          17   A.  Forensic procedures, basically the recovery of the body,

          18       et cetera, and further searching.

          19   Q.  You have listed there what you thought you had to do?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Who set that list?  Who decided those were the tasks

          22       that should be completed whilst you were there?

          23   A.  That was CSM Larrigan in conjunction with the DPS and

          24       the IPCC.

          25   Q.  Was it for you to change the agreed strategy at all?


                                           127
 

 

 


           1   A.  If I would have thought that it needed changing, yes,

           2       I would, and to a degree I did because I was asked to

           3       remove -- I was under pressure to get the police

           4       vehicles taken away straight away.  I resisted that

           5       because I think everything had to be photographed again

           6       in daylight because there's no point in doing 360 in

           7       darkness.  So to that extent, yes, I'm prepared to

           8       change what a strategy is, yes.

           9   Q.  Absent those matters that you thought could be done

          10       differently, did you object to the strategy or did it

          11       give rise to any concern on your part that the wrong

          12       things were being done?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  Did you discern, when you arrived, any confusion on the

          15       part of the IPCC, the DPS -- the Directorate of

          16       Professional Standards -- or any other officer as to

          17       what needed to be done in terms of following through the

          18       list of forensic check points?

          19   A.  No.

          20   Q.  You completed your list and do we see that you have

          21       detailed what you did on CE219?  Is that your record of

          22       what you then did?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  In relation to the POLSA search, by the time you arrived

          25       it was of course dark.  Was there a reason why the POLSA


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           1       search had to take place in the daylight?

           2   A.  Because it's easier to find things in daylight than it

           3       is in darkness, sir.

           4   Q.  In relation to search for ballistic material; is that

           5       something that is better done in daylight or night?

           6   A.  Most definitely because bullets fragment, you get small

           7       pieces of copper jacketing that can be millimetres in

           8       size when they strike things so, yes, it's most

           9       definitely done better in daylight.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  They don't shine up better under the

          11       lights?

          12   A.  No, sir.  It's a fingertip search.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're puzzled that anyone could

          14       suggest, that so I take that as a no.

          15   MR KEITH:  If you carried out a POLSA search and a search

          16       for ballistic material in the road, on the pavement, on

          17       the verge, round the cars, at night, do you think you

          18       would have been criticised?

          19   A.  Most definitely, yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That was actually one of the actions

          21       that you were tasked by the others --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- to do precisely that --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- during the hours of darkness.


                                           129
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, because, as I have said, sir, there is pressure to

           2       get on with the scene because you had a main arterial

           3       route through Tottenham and crowds were gathering as

           4       well, so you do come under pressure.  So it's always

           5       a balance between doing what's best to retrieve the

           6       forensic evidence and resisting the pressure from others

           7       that want to get the road opened.

           8   MR KEITH:  We have heard one priority was obviously looking

           9       for ballistic material and assessing what the position

          10       was in relation to firearms.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  But in relation to searching, a POLSA search, or

          13       a fingertip search for ballistic material, did anybody

          14       suggest that should be done overnight?

          15   A.  It was -- it was in the initial briefing that a POLSA

          16       team had been called and were due to come to the scene

          17       fairly rapidly, as I understood it, and I delayed that

          18       via Colin Suggett, asking him to delay it in the morning

          19       for daylight.

          20   Q.  Did Patricia Larrigan say to you, for example, we have

          21       a POLSA team coming they can search overnight?

          22   A.  There's a POLSA team coming, whether they can search

          23       overnight is another thing.

          24   Q.  Yes.  Then again, remaining on that page, CE219, the

          25       SO19 vehicles were to be removed to their base.  There


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           1       had obviously been some discussion and a decision taken

           2       that they didn't need to be retained at scene for

           3       further forensic examination?

           4   A.  That's correct.  But I thought it important to leave

           5       them there to get an effective 360 image in daylight.

           6   Q.  Over the page on CE220, we can see that after 0410,

           7       which is the entry towards the top of the page, and

           8       about seven lines further down:

           9           "DI Suggett to book and brief the POLSA to attend

          10       the scene at 0800.  DI Suggett to then arrange removal

          11       of the Toyota to Perivale."

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Was your understanding that there would be a POLSA

          14       search followed by removal to Perivale?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Is that what the word "then" indicates?

          17   A.  Yes.  Because it's important to search underneath the

          18       vehicle in the tyres of the vehicle before it's actually

          19       removed, because the action of the low loader coming in

          20       and removing the vehicle, you could be removing bits of

          21       bullets on the tyres of the low loader, of the tyres of

          22       the actual vehicle itself.  So it's searched first.  The

          23       street is searched but not necessarily the car.

          24   Q.  You search round the car, underneath it as far as you

          25       can, and then you take the further steps?


                                           131
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That part you did, did you during

           3       your time?

           4   A.  No, sir, this happened after I'd gone.

           5   MR KEITH:  All the next day in daylight.

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Did you understand that strategy had been agreed by the

           8       DPS and the IPCC?

           9   A.  Well, yes, because obviously I discussed it with

          10       DI Colin Suggett because the arrangements were made by

          11       him for the POLSA team, so, yes.

          12   Q.  Did anybody demur from that approach on the part of the

          13       IPCC --

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  -- as far as you know?  At the bottom of the page, 0700

          16       "Action plan completed", what did you mean by that in

          17       relation to your own tasks?

          18   A.  All the tasks that I had been asked to do by CSM

          19       Larrigan had been completed by me at that stage.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Or you changed some of them?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  For your reasons you have told us.

          23   A.  Yes, yes.

          24   MR KEITH:  When you left, arrangements appeared, therefore,

          25       to have been made for POLSA to attend.


                                           132
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  A decision had been taken to remove the cars: Toyota to

           3       Perivale, CO19 no forensic use -- the CO19 cars.  Were

           4       there forensic decisions -- was the forensic

           5       examination, the forensic course still entrained by the

           6       time when you left?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you left you were saying

           9       "Right, the people following me must look potentially

          10       for two bullets"?

          11   A.  Potentially for two bullets and potentially another

          12       cartridge case.  Yes, but that's -- that was the

          13       function of the POLSA, yes.

          14   MR KEITH:  Then the following day the searches took place as

          15       we know, rather later on that day?

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Later on, on the 5th?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   MR KEITH:  "Who was perceived to be in charge?" was

          19       a question that you were asked by my learned friend

          20       Mr Mansfield.  I am not sure you answered it.  Who did

          21       you understand to be responsible for the strategic

          22       direction of where the forensic examinations were going

          23       to go?

          24   A.  Whilst I was at the scene, my main point of contact was

          25       DI Suggett.


                                           133
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Who was he conferring with, do you know?

           2   A.  I believe he would be conferring with the IPCC.

           3   Q.  When you left, were you concerned at all that there

           4       wasn't a Crime Scene Manager at the scene at 7 o'clock

           5       to say "Here I am, I'm taking over, let's have

           6       a handover"?

           7   A.  Not at that stage, sir, no.  I subsequently was

           8       concerned because, obviously, as it's transpired,

           9       a Crime Scene Manager didn't -- wasn't deployed that

          10       morning or decided not to go, no.

          11   Q.  When you left, were there any tasks that were in hand

          12       which required a Crime Scene Manager there at that time

          13       to carry them out?

          14   A.  No.  I had reached a natural point where I was, in a way

          15       finished -- my role had finished there and I would just

          16       be hanging around waiting for the -- something else to

          17       happen.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If the POLSA people had turned up at

          19       7 o'clock, would you then have spoken to them directly

          20       and said "Look, this is the position this is what you

          21       are looking for, this is what you are looking at."

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So there was a missing link between

          24       you going and the POLSA people arriving and we'll hear

          25       from them what they were told.


                                           134
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   MR KEITH:  At the scene, there was of course personnel from

           3       the IPCC?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Sir, we'll hear of course in due course of the decisions

           6       they took on the 5th.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

           8   MR KEITH:  You had, of course, Mr Suggett, senior officer --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was he still there at 7 o'clock in

          11       the morning?

          12   A.  Yes, he why.

          13   MR KEITH:  He was still there.  Would there be any Exhibits

          14       Officers arriving.

          15   A.  I left the Exhibits Officer was there, sir.

          16   Q.  Was that Mr Payne --

          17   A.  I believe so, yes?

          18   Q.  -- replaced subsequently by DC Samuel?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Was there also a Sergeant and officers in charge of the

          21       POLSA team when they arrived?

          22   A.  When they arrived -- obviously they arrived after I had

          23       begun gone, so yes.

          24   Q.  But, in your experience of POLSA teams, is there

          25       a Sergeant or an Officer in Charge liaising between them


                                           135
 

 

 


           1       and the Exhibits Officer, or whoever it is in charge?

           2   A.  In fact, the Sergeant is the POLSA, that's the point.

           3       He's the police search advisor.  He has a team of search

           4       officers.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The Sergeant in charge of the team,

           6       the "A" stands for advisor?

           7   A.  Yes.  He's the briefing point, he's the person we would

           8       engage with to task the team, the search team.

           9   MR KEITH:  We'll be hearing in due course from them.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will indeed.

          11   MR KEITH:  You have been asked questions about, in a general

          12       sense, the need for a Crime Scene Manager to replace

          13       you.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  If any of those persons, to whom I made reference, had

          16       perceived the need for a Crime Scene Manager after you

          17       had gone, can you think of any reason why they could not

          18       have asked for one?

          19   A.  No.

          20   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.  I have no further

          21       questions.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Keith.

          23           Yes, Mr Underwood?

          24                Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Just a couple of matters so I can get this


                                           136
 

 

 


           1       clear, if I may, Mr Cockram.  Firstly, as you were

           2       leaving the scene, you were asked about your

           3       understanding of the strategy for POLSA.  It would have

           4       involved them searching around the minicab before the

           5       minicab was taken away for the reasons you have

           6       explained; is that right?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Did I understand you earlier to be saying that it was

           9       not your understanding of the POLSA strategy that they

          10       would search inside the minicab?

          11   A.  If they are tasked to do it by -- when they are briefed

          12       to do it -- if they are tasked to do it, they will do

          13       it, they will do what they are told, basically, but if

          14       it's an experienced POLSA I would expect him to say

          15       "Well, that's not usual procedure".

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Two things, first of all was it your

          17       understanding that's what they were going to be asked to

          18       do?

          19   A.  No.

          20   Q.  Secondly, if they had turned up while you were still

          21       there, would you have advised against that happening?

          22   A.  Most definitely.

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  That's all I ask.

          24       Thank you, although it may well be more.

          25               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER


                                           137
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  We'll find that out.  You can

           2       help us in this way, to answer a point that has been

           3       raised.  Whilst you were there, the minicab stayed

           4       exactly where it was.

           5   A.  Most -- yes it did, yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All this talk about moving actually

           7       happened after you had gone.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But you were there and, following on

          10       from what Mr Underwood was asking you and you have

          11       already told us, that if the POLSA people had turned up

          12       and started clambering inside and outside, you would

          13       have thought that would be unusual but you might well

          14       have said what you would have said to stop them doing

          15       that, unless they had a very good reason.

          16   A.  It wouldn't have happened.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It wouldn't have happened, not on

          18       your watch?

          19   A.  No.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Thank you then

          21       for coming to assist the court and the jury.  You're

          22       free now to go.

          23   A.  Thank you.

          24                      (The witness withdrew)

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.


                                           138
 

 

 


           1           We are now going to hear from a witness who will

           2       deal with movements of the minicab.  Gareth Jones,

           3       please.

           4                    MR GARETH JONES (affirmed)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Mr Jones, have

           6       a seat then please.

           7   A.  Thank you.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes?

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Mr Jones, can you give us your full name

          10       please?

          11   A.  Gareth Jones.

          12   Q.  What's your occupation?

          13   A.  Investigator with the IPCC.

          14   Q.  Were you an investigator with the IPCC in August 2011?

          15   A.  I was, yes.

          16   Q.  I want to ask you about two things.  Firstly, I think

          17       you visited Perivale where the minicab was on two

          18       occasions?

          19   A.  That's correct, yes.

          20   Q.  Secondly, I think you did a report which combed through

          21       all the materials available to the IPCC to deal with

          22       issues such as the movement of the box, the blood

          23       spatter evidence and the movement of the minicab itself;

          24       is that right?

          25   A.  I did, yes.


                                           139
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I'll ask you, first of all, about your direct dealings

           2       with the minicab, if I may.  Did you first visit

           3       Perivale and look at the minicab on 9 August?

           4   A.  That's correct.

           5   Q.  If we look at the photo, it's photograph 21 in the jury

           6       bundle, it'll come up on the screen there.  I think

           7       that's a photograph taken on 9 August, as part of the

           8       exercise you were conducting that day; is that right?

           9   A.  That's right.  That photograph was taken by Craig

          10       Protherow, during the forensic examination of the blood

          11       spatter.

          12   Q.  Does that represent what you are saw in the boot?

          13   A.  I have no recollection of seeing it in the boot when

          14       I was there but I was there when that photograph was

          15       taken, if that makes sense.

          16   Q.  Then did you visit a second time on 11 August?

          17   A.  I did, yes.

          18   Q.  This time to seize the box?

          19   A.  That's correct, yes.

          20   Q.  Before you went on 11 August to seize the box, had you

          21       any reason to think the box had any relevance?

          22   A.  I didn't until 11 August.

          23   Q.  When you went back on 11 August was the box in the

          24       position we have just seen?

          25   A.  No, it had moved slightly to the left and was now open


                                           140
 

 

 


           1       in the boot still, but slightly to the left, so I would

           2       suggest towards where the Farm Foods bag is, just to the

           3       left of that.

           4   Q.  While we are on this photograph, can you help about

           5       whether what we see rolled up on the right is the rug

           6       from the inside of the minicab?

           7   A.  I didn't look at anything else in the minicab, I only

           8       seized the box when I went back on the 11th.

           9   Q.  Moving away from the box then and how you first became

          10       interested in it, can I take you to a report.  If we

          11       pick it up at CD27112 on our documents, is that

          12       an investigator's report which you compiled --

          13   A.  It is, yes.

          14   Q.  -- on 30 November 2011 --

          15   A.  Yes.  That's correct.

          16   Q.  -- to deal with movement of the van and movement of the

          17       box, in particular?

          18   A.  That's correct.

          19   Q.  Let's just go through it in some broad terms, if I may.

          20       Picking it up in the fourth substantial paragraph,

          21       Mr Taxi Driver, as we are calling him now, his initial

          22       statement states he picked Mark Duggan up from a small

          23       road close to Leyton, City Road, N1, and where he was

          24       going.  Then he stated, in the next paragraph:

          25           "He took Mr Duggan to [Vicarage] Road.  Mark Duggan


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           1       was handed a box by another male.  The box was placed on

           2       the seat next to him.  He did not see whether Mark

           3       Duggan took the box with him before he left the minicab

           4       and was shot."

           5           Was that statement from the minicab driver the first

           6       information that the IPCC had when it received that

           7       statement, that the box may be of some relevance?

           8   A.  As I understand it, we were briefed on 11 August and it

           9       was in that briefing that we had had an account -- and

          10       I cannot recall whether it was a statement or in what

          11       format that was from -- Mr Taxi Driver at that point

          12       which had indicated similar to that effectively, that he

          13       had picked up -- I think from memory it was a cake box.

          14   Q.  Okay.  Then going back to that document, the paragraph

          15       below that:

          16           "R68 mentions in his statement immediately after the

          17       shots that the taxi driver told him that he had taken

          18       the male to Leyton where he had collected a large shoe

          19       box."

          20           Was that the first information that the IPCC had

          21       that police at the scene had been told about the box?

          22   A.  It's difficult for me to answer that, unfortunately,

          23       because I wasn't -- this was something I was doing after

          24       the event, as you will appreciate.

          25           Potentially, but I wouldn't know if that was the


                                           142
 

 

 


           1       first that we knew about it.

           2   Q.  All right.  Then let's go to the attention paid to the

           3       minicab.  The next paragraph, you say:

           4           "At the scene on the 4 August ... Mr Mehaffey

           5       discussed a preliminary forensics strategy with CSM

           6       Trish Larrigan.  It was agreed that the minicab would be

           7       retained for full forensic examination."

           8           What was your understanding about the retention for

           9       full forensic examination, was that to happen at the

          10       scene or to happen at Perivale?

          11   A.  Just to be clear, all of this is evidenced from other

          12       people's accounts.  This would be from either Trish

          13       Larrigan's account or it would be from Chris Mehaffey.

          14       As I understood it, it was to be -- as it says, it would

          15       be retained for a full forensic examination.

          16   Q.  Then, if we go over the page to our CD27113.  The second

          17       entry:

          18           "CSM John Cockram arrived on the scene at 0015 on

          19       5 August.  His case notes log advises that under actions

          20       to be completed under my supervision ... minicab to be

          21       removed to Perivale car pound."

          22           Was there anything in the IPCC files at all which

          23       suggested that the IPCC disagreed with that?

          24   A.  I can only comment on what I have put in my report

          25       unfortunately.  You know I wouldn't know -- this was --


                                           143
 

 

 


           1       the purpose of this report was to basically try and

           2       follow through the -- where the box was so it's taken

           3       from the evidence that I had, and obviously that's from

           4       John Cockram arriving at the scene and from his notes.

           5   Q.  Let me ask what information you had available to you

           6       when you did your report in November.  Does the IPCC run

           7       something called HOLMES?

           8   A.  It does, yes.

           9   Q.  What does HOLMES stand for?

          10   A.  Home Office --

          11   Q.  Is it Large Major --

          12   A.  -- Large Major Enquiry -- I forget what it means, but

          13       essentially it's computer database system we use to

          14       collate all information, and everything is

          15       cross-referenced on it, so you can search through it for

          16       anything you might need including statements/reports.

          17       So all the documents and statements that come into us

          18       will be registered on this system and we can search for

          19       them.

          20   Q.  When you compiled this report did you have access to

          21       that?

          22   A.  I did, yes.

          23   Q.  Was there anything which suggested that anybody at the

          24       IPCC had disagreed with Mr Cockram's approach to that

          25       minicab being taken away?


                                           144
 

 

 


           1   A.  There was nothing that I had found.  If it's not on that

           2       the report at that point, I would --

           3   Q.  Then you've got that some time during the afternoon

           4       Mr Kirkpatrick noticed the box in the rear of the

           5       minicab; that was on HOLMES, was it?

           6   A.  I believe that was something that he noted down in his

           7       notebook.

           8   Q.  So in addition to HOLMES, you had access to

           9       investigator's workbooks, did you?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  The POLSA specialist search record shows that task 5,

          12       search of minicab, was carried out between 12.50 and

          13       13.45.  That's on 5 August, was it, given the context

          14       and everything else?

          15   A.  It would be, yes, because it's in chronology so it would

          16       be, yes.

          17   Q.  Then it says:

          18           "No notes were made in the record regarding the

          19       blood spatter."

          20           You took that from the HOLMES record, did you?

          21   A.  It would be from the specialist search record that was

          22       provided by the POLSA team, that would have been taken

          23       from.

          24   Q.  Okay.  So somewhere between 12.50 and 13.45 then POLSA

          25       go into the minicab or was that the exterior?


                                           145
 

 

 


           1   A.  That would be the exterior.  They had not, as far as I'm

           2       aware, been into the interior at that point.

           3   Q.  No note of blood spatter.  Then you get, at 13.20, on

           4       5 August, PC Paul Fitzgibbon and PC Tracey Aryis (?)

           5       statements explaining that they discovered blood spatter

           6       on the outside of the minicab.  They both explain this

           7       was reported to Exhibits Officer John Payne.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  So what you have on HOLMES is a couple of statements,

          10       have you, from these officers saying on that day they

          11       discovered blood spatter and that they reported that

          12       blood spatter to the Exhibits Officer?

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   Q.  Next entry is that John Payne didn't mention that in his

          15       statement or in his exhibits book.  You have looked at

          16       both of those, have you, for the purposes of this?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Then we get a whole lot of movement to and from the

          19       scene for a minicab.  You get a Shane Charles of C&S,

          20       the vehicle move people, are they?

          21   A.  Yes.  They were -- I forget what the name is but they

          22       are the company that are used by the MPS to move

          23       vehicles, in essence.

          24   Q.  He mentioned in D32 -- D32 is a HOLMES document, is it?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           146
 

 

 


           1   Q.  "Entering the scene to collect the minicab at 12.12 but

           2       without collecting the vehicle."

           3           It leaves three minutes later, yes.

           4   A.  12.15 -- 12.12 and left at 12.15 that's correct, yes.

           5   Q.  You then have a record of a Nicola Heley, a trainee

           6       investigator, who notes the times the minicab left the

           7       scene --

           8   A.  That's correct.

           9   Q.  -- which is 15.20; is that right --

          10   A.  Yes, it left at 15.20.

          11   Q.  -- and came back at 4.02?

          12   A.  She was still present at 4.02 when it returned.

          13   Q.  So first movement is out at 3.20, back at 4.02, yes?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  Then the vehicle reminders in situ until it was removed

          16       by a Mr Goldsmith, is that right -- your next

          17       paragraph -- or was that, in fact, the same movement

          18       that we have just been talking about with Ms Heley?

          19   A.  Yes, that's the same movement, I apologise, it's just

          20       corroborating what Ms Heley had seen.

          21   Q.  From his statement?

          22   A.  From his statement.

          23   Q.  If we jump down then to the last but one paragraph on

          24       that page:

          25           "The decision log of Colin Sparrow shows that at


                                           147
 

 

 


           1       15.05 he made a decision that the forensics of the

           2       minicab would be turned around as soon as possible.  The

           3       reasons were that the owner [redacted] could suffer

           4       financial hardship if this was not done and that it

           5       would not be detrimental to the investigation.  Colin's

           6       workbook, dated at the same time, explains that he spoke

           7       to DCI Williams regarding the decision and asked for

           8       a visual search for ballistics damage and a search for

           9       the rear of the vehicle."

          10           Is that right?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Then at 15.28 a message was processed by somebody called

          13       55YR, one of the local officers?

          14   A.  I believe it was, yes.

          15   Q.  "... requesting that the vehicle be taken back to the

          16       scene.  It appears from the messages on the CAD that the

          17       vehicle was still in transit to Perivale at this time.

          18       The vehicle was turned around and taken back to the

          19       scene."

          20           So this is all the same one movement of out at

          21       3 o'clock or so and back at 4 o'clock?

          22   A.  Yes, it's just the corroboration from the various

          23       different sources.

          24   Q.  Right.  Then if we jump down a paragraph:

          25           "PC Scott Nicholls and PC Steven Rainford carried


                                           148
 

 

 


           1       out a POLSA search of the minicab.  They time this in

           2       their inquiry statements between 16.52 and 20.35."

           3           So within an hour of the minicab being brought back;

           4       is that right?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  "Steven Rainford, in his statement dated

           7       29 November 2011 stated:

           8           "'Whilst searching the rear seating area of the

           9       vehicle, I remember seeing a small cardboard box, which

          10       I believed to be a shoe box, situated in between the

          11       seats located in the forward most position on the

          12       floor.'

          13           "He confirms that the shoe box would have been fully

          14       examined, he explains that the cardboard box was taken

          15       out during the search and all items were placed in the

          16       rear loading storage area.  Both officers mention that

          17       they had to return the seats round to gain access."

          18           So that's something which cropped up in a statement

          19       of 29 November, the day before you wrote this report; is

          20       that right?

          21   A.  I don't -- yes, it appears to be that's when they

          22       provided the statements, dated -- Steven Rainford's

          23       statement on 29 November 2011.

          24   Q.  Thank you.  Then you go on to talk about POLSA search

          25       record task 11:


                                           149
 

 

 


           1           "Search of the vehicle completed between 16.52 and

           2       19.25."

           3           That's the interior of the minicab, is it?

           4   A.  That's correct, yes.

           5   Q.  Then moving on:

           6           "Investigator Joanne Fitzgerald's workbook shows

           7       that at 18.46 on the 5th, DC Rachel Samuel advised that

           8       blood spatter had been found on the outside of the

           9       vehicle.  Jo's book confirms that at 18.48 Colin Sparrow

          10       was advised by her that blood spatter had been found on

          11       the outside of the vehicle.  Jo's book states that Colin

          12       agreed that the vehicle should now be forensically

          13       lifted."

          14           What do you understand by "forensically lifted"?

          15   A.  It means to be covered effectively, so that it's away

          16       from the elements, so it would not be open to any rain

          17       or anything.

          18   Q.  According to all the workbooks you have seen and the

          19       HOLMES records you have seen, the first notification

          20       that the IPCC had that the blood spatter had been found

          21       was at 6.46; is that right?

          22   A.  That's correct.

          23   Q.  Within four minutes of that, Mr Sparrow had decided to

          24       cover the vehicle; is that right?

          25   A.  He agreed that we couldn't give it back to [redacted]


                                           150
 

 

 


           1       now because obviously there was significant evidence in

           2       the exterior of the vehicle so it would need to be

           3       lifted forensically examined because of that.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I know you are following what is

           5       said but we don't mention the name of the taxi driver.

           6   A.  Apologies.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  By this stage, the vehicle had been searched

           8       inside and out; is that right?

           9   A.  This was at 18.46.  We've got --

          10   Q.  At least it had been searched externally and possibly

          11       internally, depending on --

          12   A.  It was possibly in the process at 18.46 because, as we

          13       can see from the POLSA search records, they were between

          14       16.52 and 19.25.

          15   Q.  Right.

          16   A.  So there was -- possibly within the process that that

          17       was pointed out to us.

          18   Q.  It had been moved off the scene once on a low loader and

          19       been brought back by that low loader?

          20   A.  It had, yes.

          21   Q.  So do the records show that the decision was made then

          22       to take the minicab back to Perivale or take it off the

          23       scene again and to Perivale, this time, for a full

          24       forensic test for the blood?

          25   A.  They do, yes, yes.


                                           151
 

 

 


           1   Q.  That blood examination was done, I think, when you were

           2       there, on 9 August --

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  -- by Mr Bell.

           5   A.  By Andrew Bell, yes.

           6   Q.  Then, as we have said before, you knew nothing about the

           7       importance, if any, of that box on the 9th when you went

           8       there; is that right?

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  Again, according to your researches on HOLMES and

          11       investigator's workbooks, was anybody from the IPCC told

          12       about that box until the briefing on 11 August?

          13   A.  I am not aware of anyone being told about the box prior

          14       to 11 August.  I became aware from -- I think it was

          15       an 11 o'clock briefing and by 3 o'clock that afternoon

          16       it was in our possession, that box.

          17   Q.  If we look at the final page of this document, 27115,

          18       third entry from the bottom, a decision log entry by

          19       Colin Sparrow at 13.10 on 11 August shows that:

          20           "A decision was made that the shoe type box should

          21       be recovered forensically from the taxi cab."

          22           That's what made you go back to Perivale that day,

          23       was it?

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you, Mr Jones.  That's all I have for

          25       you.


                                           152
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?

           2                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           3   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon, I represent Mark Duggan's

           4       family.  Just a very little in your case.

           5           What was the first occasion that you went to the

           6       scene itself, that is Ferry Lane?

           7   A.  I arrived at Ferry Lane at 3.20 on 5 August.

           8   Q.  Right.  The object of going to Ferry Lane at that time

           9       on that day?

          10   A.  My objective was to be a presence, an IPCC presence, at

          11       the coordinate at that occasion.  I understood, bearing

          12       in mind what we have just been through, that the

          13       vehicle -- the taxi cab was to be lifted, and indeed, as

          14       I arrived, the vehicle was actually being lifted at that

          15       point.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So your 3.20 is in the afternoon?

          17   A.  That's 3.20 in the afternoon, yes.  It was to be lifted

          18       and that forensic strategy had been agreed and that

          19       a fingertip search -- POLSA search, as we've heard about

          20       POLSA -- was to be completed after that.  Essentially

          21       I was there to oversee that and then open the scene as

          22       and when I was advised by -- the various forensics had

          23       been carried out and completed in accordance with the

          24       strategy.

          25   MR MANSFIELD:  Sorry, what were you to oversee?


                                           153
 

 

 


           1   A.  I say "oversee", I was a presence at the scene.  So, you

           2       know, I was outside of what was going on.  The forensics

           3       had all been agreed and I was there as a presence,

           4       really, for the IPCC, for example if a witness should

           5       happen to come to the scene, I would be able to speak to

           6       them or if anyone should come forward or have any issues

           7       that needed to be relayed to the lead investigator,

           8       I could put that forward, as happened at 18.46, and

           9       I could relay that sort of thing or me and my colleague,

          10       Jo, could relay that to the lead investigator at that

          11       time.

          12   Q.  Mr Sparrow?

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   Q.  So really you were there as an observer, were you?

          15   A.  In essence, yes.

          16   Q.  Well, when the minicab was being loaded you were there;

          17       was it sealed?

          18   A.  As I understand, afterwards -- I didn't go near the

          19       minicab, I hasten to add.

          20   Q.  I am not asking about what you discovered afterwards,

          21       I'll come to that in a moment.  At the time did you

          22       notice whether it was sealed or not?

          23   A.  I didn't notice at the time whether it was sealed.

          24   Q.  Would that be part of your observation task?

          25   A.  I understood that the forensics when I got there, had


                                           154
 

 

 


           1       already been agreed and were in place.  So that was

           2       happening as I arrived.

           3   Q.  I appreciate that.  But you're there as an IPCC presence

           4       so would it be fair to say then that you don't notice

           5       whether it's sealed or it's not?

           6   A.  I didn't know whether it was sealed at that point.

           7   Q.  Did you look?

           8   A.  I didn't see, no.  I didn't go near the minicab at that

           9       time.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are there representing IPCC who

          11       are taking over the investigation, you're there to

          12       observe and you didn't see whether the seals were on the

          13       cab or not?

          14   A.  No.  I had very little reason to go into the inner

          15       cordon and I appreciated the fingertip search was going

          16       to take place shortly after the minicab had been loaded

          17       and I didn't see any need for me to go into the scene.

          18   MR MANSFIELD:  You know the sort of seals -- the jury have

          19       seen the sort of seals we are concerned with.  They look

          20       like labels stuck across doors so that people can't open

          21       them willy nilly, that's why they're there.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Yes.  So what was your understanding later then, you

          24       were about to say, a moment ago?

          25   A.  Well, I knew when the vehicle came back that it had been


                                           155
 

 

 


           1       sealed when it had gone off, so it had gone and come

           2       back and it was still sealed when it came back.  I knew

           3       that.

           4   Q.  Because you were still there?

           5   A.  I was still there, yes.

           6   Q.  You knew it because you saw it or somebody told you?

           7   A.  I think somebody told me at that point but I cannot

           8       recall who.

           9   Q.  How long did you remain at the scene?

          10   A.  I was there until it opened, from my notes -- (Pause)

          11           So I was there until gone 11 o'clock that evening,

          12       until the scene was re-opened.

          13   Q.  So were you there when there was another attempt to

          14       remove the vehicle?

          15   A.  I would have been there, yes.

          16   Q.  Did you see what happened then?

          17   A.  No.  I don't recall seeing anything about the -- it was

          18       only on the final occasion when the vehicle was taken

          19       that I recall the vehicle being moved or any attempt to

          20       remove the vehicle, as I recall.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I just have it from you, what

          22       time did you arrive there?

          23   A.  3.20.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were there until?

          25   A.  Gone 11 o'clock that evening.


                                           156
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That evening, okay.

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  Just following it through, you have already

           3       indicated that you think you saw the box on one occasion

           4       on the 9th and you went back to the 11th, it had been

           5       moved and the lid was off.

           6   A.  That's correct.

           7   Q.  Has that been explained to you satisfactorily as to how

           8       that came about?

           9   A.  Yes.  We understand from Karen Farr (?) who works at

          10       Perivale, she's one of the employers there, she told me

          11       that it was a matter of course, vehicles when -- after

          12       they're examined at Perivale, which this had been

          13       forensically and we had, in essence, finished with that

          14       vehicle -- they are searched before they go out of the

          15       forensic hangar and go back to what is a large car lot

          16       to be collected by the owner and what they do before

          17       that is they will search the vehicle to see if there's

          18       any valuables in there, sat navs, anything that could be

          19       valuable and, as I understand it, they are handed back

          20       separately.

          21           So that search would have been done by two employees

          22       of Perivale car pound prior to it going back out onto

          23       the lot and being handed back to the taxi driver in due

          24       course.

          25   Q.  Just looking -- overview here, in terms of exhibits from


                                           157
 

 

 


           1       the beginning, who from the IPCC has overall

           2       responsibility for crime scene, crime scene continuity

           3       and so on, who is it; is it Mr Sparrow or someone else?

           4   A.  He has a strategic overview of the whole scene but we

           5       are reliant under the police reform act, on certain jobs

           6       being undertaken by the Metropolitan Police Service in

           7       this case.  So, for example, crime scene management, we

           8       don't have that resource within the IPCC, we need that

           9       to be done by the police service, and that's what

          10       happened on this occasion.

          11   Q.  I am concentrating on the box for a moment and the

          12       source of guns and all the rest of it.  So who is

          13       investigating where the gun may have come from, how it

          14       was carried there, to the scene, I mean, and how it

          15       ended up on the grass; who is doing all that, who is

          16       doing that at this stage?

          17   A.  At this stage it is down to the overriding strategy

          18       which would be in consultation with obviously Trident

          19       SCD8, the IPCC, because we cannot lose sight of the fact

          20       that there was potentially a criminal investigation

          21       going on as well.  But because there has been a fatal

          22       shooting, the IPCC would potentially have primacy in

          23       that area to, you know, make sure that all of the roles

          24       are fulfilled, for example.

          25   Q.  Is that Mr Sparrow?


                                           158
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes?

           4           Yes Mr Stern?

           5                      Questions by MR STERN

           6   MR STERN:  I think there's somebody who works for the IPCC

           7       called Adil Jamil?

           8   A.  There is, yes.

           9   Q.  He, I think, had contact with the taxi driver from

          10       5 August; are you aware of that?

          11   A.  I am aware he had some contact, yes.

          12   Q.  The reason I am not putting the page up on the screen is

          13       because it has the taxi driver's name on it but for my

          14       learned friend's reference it's CD27182.  In any event,

          15       it probably does not need to go up.

          16           He had contact with the taxi driver from 5 August at

          17       11.25 and a number of discussions with him, but

          18       certainly on 8 August there had been fairly extensive

          19       taped interviews with him, had there not?

          20   A.  Possibly, I don't know, in essence, at the moment --

          21   Q.  You don't know?

          22   A.  I don't know, it's not something I'm aware of.

          23   MR STERN:  Right, thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, let's just make sure.  I think

          25       it's Mr Keith next.


                                           159
 

 

 


           1                      Questions by MR KEITH

           2   MR KEITH:  Mr Jones, I would just like to ask you please

           3       about your understanding of your role at the scene.  Is

           4       it your understanding that you were there only as

           5       an observer?

           6   A.  My role, when I was briefed at 14.39 was that I was

           7       going as a presence on the cordon, essentially, and to,

           8       you know, speak to the people that were there, if there

           9       were any issues that needed referral, to make a decision

          10       on, then I could forward those up, and to ensure that,

          11       you know, I was there when the cordon was lifted and

          12       I was happy that the cordon could be lifted at the end.

          13   Q.  So is it your understanding that you took no decisions

          14       about the course of the forensic examination --

          15   A.  I had --

          16   Q.  -- you took no decisions about the searching and your

          17       only role was to express yourself content with the

          18       lifting of the cordon?

          19   A.  I had some discussions with the officers that were at

          20       the scene, Inspector Mugglestone and DC Samuel about

          21       strategies and what they were doing.

          22   Q.  Just pausing there.  Discussions about what?

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The word "strategy" is quite often

          24       used for all sorts of things, if you could define --

          25   MR KEITH:  Perhaps, Mr Jones, you were asked some questions


                                           160
 

 

 


           1       but you didn't have your notes up on the screen.  Can we

           2       have CS849, please, which is called "Officer's report".

           3       It's a report that you made to Mr Sparrow, who we're all

           4       agreed is the investigator at the IPCC who was in

           5       charge, once it became an IPCC investigation, correct?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  You agree that, that because there was a discharge of

           8       a firearm and a fatal shooting, this was an IPCC

           9       investigation, as far as you were concerned?

          10   A.  At this time, bearing in mind I was there at 3.20 the

          11       day after, I was satisfied that this was going to be

          12       an IPCC independent investigation, yes.

          13   Q.  You knew that from very early on, that's to say within

          14       a matter of hours on the evening of 4 August, it had

          15       been declared to be an IPCC investigation, didn't you?

          16   A.  On 4 August?

          17   Q.  Yes.

          18   A.  Can I just point something out regarding this report?

          19   Q.  No, if you just answer the question for a moment.  If

          20       you cannot remember say so then we will look at the

          21       report.

          22   A.  I didn't know on the 4 August.

          23   Q.  When you attended the scene on the 5th, did you know

          24       that it had been an IPCC investigation from shortly

          25       after the events in question?


                                           161
 

 

 


           1   A.  I can't recall but I think I would have known it would

           2       have been, yes.

           3   Q.  Because there had been a fatal shooting --

           4   A.  That's right, it's mandatory, statutory, right.

           5   Q.  -- and you have a statutory remit to investigate those

           6       sorts of events?

           7   A.  Absolutely.

           8   Q.  You so knew it was an IPCC investigation --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- and had been throughout?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  At 14.40 on 6 August, looking at CS849, you were briefed

          13       by Mr Sparrow in the IPCC offices.  You were tasked with

          14       relieving Mr Kirkpatrick.  Mr Kirkpatrick had been at

          15       the scene throughout the evening and the night of

          16       4 August.

          17   A.  Yes.  I am not sure when he arrived at the scene but

          18       I was to relieve him from being at the scene, yes.

          19   Q.  Your report has an error on the first line because it's

          20       actually at 14.40 on 5 August?

          21   A.  That's correct, yes.

          22   Q.  You arrived at the cordon and you signed in and you were

          23       briefed by Mr Kirkpatrick about what had happened and

          24       you were introduced to Inspector Mugglestone, who was

          25       the POLSA search team leader --


                                           162
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  -- and Mr Payne, who was the Exhibits Officer, wasn't

           3       he?

           4   A.  That's correct.

           5   Q.  You were advised that exhibits had been taken from the

           6       scene and parameters regarding the fingertip search had

           7       been agreed; agreed with whom, Mr Jones?

           8   A.  That's right.  I believe it was with Colin Sparrow at

           9       that point.

          10   Q.  The search parameters had been agreed with the IPCC, had

          11       they not?

          12   A.  Yes, as I understand it.

          13   Q.  Mr Fitzpatrick then left the scene and handed you an MPS

          14       decision log containing an email and the names of

          15       14 individuals and possible witnesses and at that time

          16       you, in fact, witnessed the low loader going away for

          17       the first time?

          18   A.  That's correct.

          19   Q.  If you were just an observer, why did you have the MPS

          20       decision logbook?

          21   A.  That was Caroline Saunders' decision, as I recall, which

          22       was to do with the cordon and the area.

          23   Q.  Why did you need it if you were just an observer?

          24   A.  I wasn't being involved with the decisions, as I say, at

          25       that point.  What I was doing was obviously collating


                                           163
 

 

 


           1       the evidence that we had.  So, for example, that

           2       decision log was handed to me by Dave Kirkpatrick so it

           3       was retained by me until I was going into the office the

           4       next day, so I had that it at that point.

           5   Q.  You were collating the evidence; you mean you were

           6       investigating?

           7   A.  Well, preliminary, that was provided to me and obviously

           8       that is something that I am going to retain at that

           9       point.

          10   Q.  Mr Jones, were you at the scene to investigate what was

          11       going on as part of the IPCC's statutory remit?

          12   A.  I was there because, obviously, the forensics were being

          13       carried out at that point.  If anything came to me that

          14       needed my attention I would have undertaken that, as

          15       you'll appreciate.  So, for example, an MPS decision log

          16       being handed to me, I'm going to retain that.  If

          17       a witness comes forward, I'm going to speak to them.  If

          18       a decision is necessary, I am going to relay that to the

          19       lead investigator to make that decision.

          20   Q.  Did you make any decisions at all about the way in which

          21       the search was carried out --

          22   A.  No.

          23   Q.  -- was to be carried out --

          24   A.  No.  There was some discussion --

          25   Q.  -- the area in which it was to be carried out?


                                           164
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, there was some discussion around what the parameters

           2       for the search were, particularly around Emily Bowes,

           3       and whether there were going to be any searches of the

           4       building because, you know, at the time I wasn't

           5       completely aware of the sequence of events.  So I was

           6       just asking really what the parameters were around the

           7       search at that point.

           8   Q.  All right.  16.05, please, if we can keep CS849 up on

           9       the screen.  You had a conversation, if we can zoom in,

          10       with Inspector Mugglestone, who was the Inspector in

          11       charge of the POLSA team, regarding the waste ground and

          12       the fact that the minicab had been taken away:

          13           "After this conversation I spoke to Mr Parrin (?) it

          14       was agreed we wouldn't search the waste ground."

          15           Who is the "we" a reference to?

          16   A.  It's a colloquial "we"; it wouldn't be searched, in

          17       essence.

          18   Q.  The IPCC decided that that waste ground wouldn't be

          19       searched?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.

          21   Q.  That was a decision to which you were party?

          22   A.  Yes, I was party to the decision.

          23   Q.  "At 17.00 I was approached by Inspector Mugglestone who

          24       discussed with me the waste ground and the above

          25       decision was relayed to her.  At 17.55 a decision was


                                           165
 

 

 


           1       made in consultation with Inspector Mugglestone that the

           2       cordon would be reduced.  It was advised that this would

           3       not affect the POLSA search.  I was also asked by the

           4       cordon Sergeant what time we expected the scene to be

           5       released.  I advised it would be likely to be later than

           6       10 o'clock."

           7           So you took part in decisions concerning the

           8       reduction in the cordon, the impact of that reduction on

           9       the POLSA search and you also gave advice in relation to

          10       when you thought the searches and the cordon would be

          11       complete?

          12   A.  In relation to the reducing of the cordon, that was --

          13       as I have said there, it was in consultation with

          14       Inspector Mugglestone and it was asked whether that was

          15       a possibility because at the time it was causing quite

          16       considerable difficulties for the residents of Jarrow

          17       Road to get in and it was -- I cannot remember who

          18       brought it up, but it was agreed that it could be

          19       reduced to just round the green area allowing the road

          20       to be accessed.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That was part of your role to agree

          22       that, was it not?

          23   A.  This was a reduction of the cordon, it wasn't the

          24       lifting of the cordon.  It was to bring it closer in so

          25       people could still get home, effectively, because at the


                                           166
 

 

 


           1       time they couldn't.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, we'll come to the end of the

           3       story in a moment.

           4   MR KEITH:  Mr Jones, the jury are being asked to consider

           5       who made the decisions in relation to the search

           6       process, the continuation of all these forensic steps on

           7       the following day, on 5 August.  Inspector Mugglestone

           8       came to you because you were, in essence, in charge.

           9       Mr Sparrow wasn't there.  When decisions had to be

          10       taken, the police came to you and said "You're the IPCC,

          11       what do we do?"  That's right, isn't it?

          12   A.  I was advised that it wouldn't affect the POLSA search

          13       and based on that --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We are not dealing with the reasons

          15       but it's just the structure.  You were, for all intents

          16       and purposes, the IPCC person at the scene involving

          17       yourself in decisions.  We are not looking at the

          18       decisions but just working out the pecking order,

          19       really, and when someone wanted to come to you to reduce

          20       the cordons, Inspector Mugglestone came and spoke to

          21       you, then you agreed, yes.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At the end of the story, you agreed

          24       freeing up the whole scene all together, didn't you?

          25   A.  Yes, yes.


                                           167
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So, in many ways, if there's Crime

           2       Scene Manager at the end of the story that's you,

           3       really, isn't it?

           4   A.  I wouldn't call myself a Crime Scene Manager at that

           5       point.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There wasn't one.

           7   A.  There wasn't a Crime Scene Manager.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But if there was someone acting as

           9       if they were a Crime Scene Manager that would be you,

          10       really, at the end of this?

          11   A.  I think we had DC Samuel there and Inspector Mugglestone

          12       there, who were -- the exhibits manager was -- basically

          13       that's what DC Payne was doing, and obviously the POLSA

          14       search was being carried out by Inspector Mugglestone

          15       and her team when I was there.

          16   MR KEITH:  Mr Jones, the searchers in the POLSA team

          17       answered to their Sergeant, didn't they --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- Sergeant Hannigan?  When there were issues to be

          20       raised, it went up the chain of command and Inspector

          21       Mugglestone took some decisions, but when Inspector

          22       Mugglestone found that she had to make a decision for

          23       which she needed authority, in terms of strategy or the

          24       width of the search, or any of these forensic decisions,

          25       who did she come to?


                                           168
 

 

 


           1   A.  She spoke to me about it.

           2   Q.  Who took the decisions you, her or Mr Sparrow?

           3   A.  It was a collection -- it depends on the particulars.

           4       I accept the cordon, yes.  There were other decisions

           5       which were passed to Mr Sparrow.  So -- and the report

           6       deals with all of the decisions that were made at the

           7       scene.

           8   Q.  In the pecking order and the chain of command you gave

           9       advice or direction to the people below you, didn't you?

          10   A.  In consultation with them.

          11   Q.  Yes or no?

          12   A.  (Pause)

          13   Q.  If you cannot answer, look at the bottom of the page:

          14           "At 18.00 I was advised that there were three phones

          15       in the minicab.  I advised that we would contact the

          16       driver and find out what phones he owned.

          17           "18.10 I was advised by Inspector Mugglestone that

          18       they had found a Sainsbury's carrier bag."

          19           At 18.14 you were advised in relation to further

          20       seizures.

          21           At 1846, you were advised in relation to blood

          22       splatter.  They were all reporting to you, weren't they?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  At 19.48:

          25           "A decision was made in consultation with ... that


                                           169
 

 

 


           1       the minicab should be lifted forensically ..."

           2           That was the second time?

           3   A.  That's correct, yes.

           4   Q.  Because it was the IPCC, in essence Mr Sparrow, who had

           5       decided earlier that afternoon that, whilst the Toyota

           6       was on the way to Perivale, it should do an about-turn

           7       and go back to the scene.  He took that decision

           8       himself, didn't he?

           9   A.  He did, yes.

          10   Q.  That wasn't a decision by the Met?

          11   A.  No.

          12   Q.  No.  At 19.25:

          13           "We were advised that two SIM cards had been

          14       found ... decisions were taken in relation to those SIM

          15       cards."

          16           Who made those decisions?

          17   A.  (Pause)

          18           I can't recall who made that decision at this time.

          19   Q.  19.40:

          20           "I was approached by Rachel Samuel [who was the

          21       Exhibits Officer who took over from DC Payne] who

          22       advised me that the POLSA team had found a 'nick' on the

          23       metal pole support a road sign opposite the scene ...

          24           "I viewed the nick, it was the wrong side of the

          25       pole to be consistent with the angle of a shot from the


                                           170
 

 

 


           1       scene as it was on the side of the pole opposite the

           2       scene."

           3           When an investigate decision had to be taken as to

           4       whether or not that was a significant finding that

           5       should be explored further, who took the investigative

           6       decision not to pursue it further?

           7   A.  I accept I took that decision.

           8   Q.  A decision was taken at 20.05 between DSI Sparrow and

           9       Inspector Mugglestone over the telephone about the white

          10       student building opposite.

          11           At 20.35, Investigator Fitzgerald, who's an IPCC

          12       investigator, is he not, "and myself" agreed not to

          13       retain something as evidence.  Correct?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Again, an IPCC decision by you?

          16   A.  Yes, yes.

          17   Q.  The POLSA teams completed their searches and had left by

          18       9 o'clock, they returned to Tottenham police station to

          19       complete their paperwork.  Then you signed off the

          20       removal of the minicab for the second time at 10.10.

          21   A.  That's correct.

          22   Q.  The scene was inspected by who?

          23   A.  (Pause)

          24           It was by myself.

          25   Q.  So the scene, which had been the subject of incredible


                                           171
 

 

 


           1       forensic attention, was left to you to decide whether or

           2       not all the forensic steps were concluded, everything

           3       that had needed to be done had been done, it could be,

           4       I'm sorry to say, cleaned and then re-opened to the

           5       public and the cordons lifted?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  You took that important forensic decision?

           8   A.  I did, but obviously based on them telling me the

           9       forensics had been completed and they were satisfied

          10       that was the case.

          11   Q.  The decision was one for you because you were the de

          12       facto investigator in charge at the scene.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Thank you.  In fact, it was clear, wasn't it, to all the

          15       police officers at the scene that the IPCC was in charge

          16       because the action plan for the entire forensic search,

          17       the initial assessments, all the decisions taken prior

          18       to your arrival, were all agreed with the IPCC; you were

          19       aware of that?

          20   A.  Yes, I'm aware of that.

          21   Q.  In fact, if you just look at CD490, which was an extract

          22       from Patricia Larrigan, the CSM's notes we looked at

          23       earlier, halfway down the page, if we can just scroll in

          24       just before the number 5:

          25           "Any further actions dependent on IPCC


                                           172
 

 

 


           1       requirements."

           2           Was that your understanding, that the extent and

           3       nature of forensic actions was dependent on what the

           4       IPCC decided?

           5   A.  Yes.  I mean, we would have an overall strategy

           6       regarding the forensics, yes.

           7   Q.  Right.  I am going to push you a bit further because the

           8       Coroner has been frequently enquiring why the Toyota was

           9       handed back.

          10           I think we will find that you authorised the release

          11       of the Toyota, CD11391.  If we just scroll in halfway

          12       down the page on the left-hand side:

          13           "Release authorised by Gareth Jones IPCC

          14       Investigator."

          15           So you decided the time had come for the Toyota to

          16       be handed back?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What was the date of that?

          19   MR KEITH:  11 August.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  9/8?

          21   A.  9 August.

          22   MR KEITH:  9 August, I'm sorry.  What happened was that he

          23       claimed, and I think subsequently on the 16th, is that

          24       right, a few days later?

          25   A.  Possibly, I don't know.


                                           173
 

 

 


           1   Q.  He then attended and retrieved it.

           2           You have been asked about the search of the Toyota.

           3       Is that something that you can deal with directly or is

           4       that a question, or series of questions, better put to

           5       the investigator, Mr Kirkpatrick, who you replaced?

           6   A.  Well I was present during the POLSA search of the

           7       minicab.  I don't believe Mr Kirkpatrick was present.

           8       I think he had left by then.

           9   Q.  If you're talking about the one in the afternoon after

          10       you arrived --

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  -- you must mean the one between 16.52 and 19.25, which

          13       was the POLSA search inside?

          14   A.  That's correct, yes.

          15   Q.  Who was the IPCC investigator who was concerned and

          16       giving authority for forensic decisions in the

          17       morning -- and that is to say covering the POLSA search

          18       outside the Toyota, the roadway in which it was parked?

          19   A.  All I know is that I took over from David Kirkpatrick at

          20       3.20, so I am not sure whether he was there at that

          21       point.

          22   Q.  Much has been made of the requirements on the various

          23       police officers to make notes of all the things that

          24       they did.

          25           Can you just help us, please, with CS849 your


                                           174
 

 

 


           1       officer's report.  Is that based on handwritten notes

           2       you made at the scene or is it something that you typed

           3       up after the event?

           4   A.  This was typed up after the event on 6 August, which was

           5       the Saturday, and that was a combination of my notes

           6       from my workbook and obviously what I still remembered

           7       from the evening before.

           8   Q.  So the events that you recorded in this report were not

           9       actually written down by you at the time?  They were

          10       typed up later?

          11   A.  Much of them were, to be frank.

          12   Q.  Do we have those, do you know?

          13   A.  Yes, you do have them, my original notes.

          14   Q.  In relation to the box, you've been asked to summarise

          15       the position in relation to the box.  Is this the

          16       position: the police of course had not seen the handover

          17       in Vicarage Road/Burchell Road, to use a neutral

          18       expression.  The box only came to light, did it not,

          19       when the taxi driver, Mr Taxi Driver, told another

          20       police officer that there had been a stop on the way and

          21       a box had been handed over; does that accord with your

          22       recollection?

          23   A.  It does post-event.  Obviously, as I've explained,

          24       I didn't know any of this at the time.  The first I knew

          25       about the relevance of the box was on 11 August,


                                           175
 

 

 


           1       following the briefing.

           2   Q.  In fact, during the Hutchinson-Foster trial, when you

           3       gave evidence, you stated that, on 9 August, when you

           4       had gone to Perivale, when Mr Bell had carried out the

           5       blood pattern analysis and photographs were taken, you

           6       didn't yourself recall seeing the box?

           7   A.  I don't recall seeing the box when I was there.  The

           8       only reason I know it was there was I was present when

           9       the photographs were taken, and clearly I was handed

          10       a disc of the photographs by Mr Protherow immediately

          11       after the search.

          12   Q.  As you have agreed, you, on behalf of the IPCC, were

          13       investigating this matter?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Even you, by 9 August, five days later, had still not

          16       appreciated the relevancy of the box?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Is that the position?

          19   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          20   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.  I have no further

          21       questions.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  We have Mr Glasson next.

          23   MR GLASSON:  No thank you, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Glasson.  Yes,

          25       Mr Thomas?


                                           176
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  Sir, I have three questions.  I rose before

           2       Mr Glasson because I understood this to be Mr Glasson's

           3       witness.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It is Mr Glasson's witness.  I'll

           5       ask him again after you have asked your three questions.

           6                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           7   MR THOMAS:  Mr Jones, I have three questions for you.

           8       Firstly this: on the 5th and when you came onto the

           9       scene, did you appreciate that you were in charge?

          10   A.  I wasn't in charge.  It was --

          11   Q.  All right.  Did you appreciate, as IPCC investigator,

          12       you were there to keep a general eye on everything?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Right.  I don't think you've been asked this: what is

          15       your background?  What is your experience?

          16   A.  I was two years IPCC investigator on the 4 August 2011.

          17       Before that, for approximately five years, I had been

          18       a Trading Standards Enforcement Officer, prior to that.

          19   Q.  So five years as a Trading Standards Officer.  Before

          20       that?

          21   A.  Before that, I was a consumer advisor around civil law.

          22   Q.  How many deaths in custody prior to this one had you

          23       investigated?

          24   A.  I think --

          25   Q.  Police shootings, sorry.


                                           177
 

 

 


           1   A.  Police shootings.  Definitely one, in Brighton ... I had

           2       been involved as -- not a lead investigator but taken,

           3       you know -- been involved with investigations into

           4       numerous different areas before then.

           5   Q.  In terms of police shootings, this was your second, was

           6       it?

           7   A.  From memory, yes.  Definitely one before, possibly more,

           8       but definitely one previous.

           9   MR THOMAS:  That's all I ask.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Thomas.  Mr Glasson?

          11   MR GLASSON:  No.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Underwood?

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising, thank you.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I have no questions either.

          15       Thank you very much, Mr Jones, that completes your

          16       evidence; you are free now to go.

          17           I think we should have a short break.  We will just

          18       have a five or ten minute break, members of the jury,

          19       and then take our next witness after that.  So I'll ask

          20       for cameras to be turned off.

          21                   (In the absence of the jury)

          22           Right, thank you very much.  I'll rise then.

          23   (3.40 pm)

          24                         (A short break)

          25   (3.55 pm)


                                           178
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Thank you all.  We'll have

           2       the jury in then, please, and the cameras off.

           3                  (In the presence of the jury)

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

           5       jury.

           6           I did just get a brief little note from you.  You

           7       are right that the document wasn't redacted and a name

           8       was mentioned that shouldn't have been mentioned.  As

           9       you might have heard me say, that is a contempt of

          10       court, punishable by two years' imprisonment, but I have

          11       decided not to send the barristers or witnesses to

          12       prison straight away.  But you are right, it should not

          13       have been done, I'm sure you will ignore what was said.

          14       We will carry on hoping that that will not happen, but

          15       well spotted, that's very good.

          16           Right, the next witness?

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Mr Kirkpatrick, please.

          18                 MR DAVID KIRKPATRICK (affirmed)

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Have a seat

          20       then, Mr Kirkpatrick.  Then once you are comfortable,

          21       Mr Underwood will ask you some questions.

          22                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Mr Kirkpatrick.

          24   A.  Good afternoon.

          25   Q.  Can you tell us your full names, please?


                                           179
 

 

 


           1   A.  David Kirkpatrick.

           2   Q.  I think you are an IPCC investigator; is that right?

           3   A.  I am.

           4   Q.  Were you an investigator in August 2011?

           5   A.  Yes, I was.

           6   Q.  Did you attend the scene in Ferry Lane on 5 August?

           7   A.  Yes, I did.

           8   Q.  Roughly what time?

           9   A.  If I can just look at my notes.  It was about -- that

          10       was the second day, wasn't it?  About 10.51 am.

          11   Q.  Were you the only IPCC officer at the scene at that

          12       stage?

          13   A.  No, I had a trainee investigator with me.

          14   Q.  Who was that?

          15   A.  Nicola Heley.

          16   Q.  Were you aware that a POLSA team was on the scene?

          17   A.  I was when I got there, yes.

          18   Q.  Had they, as far as you knew, been given tasks by the

          19       time you had arrived?

          20   A.  Yes.  I spoke with the POLSA Inspector.  The parameters

          21       were discussed, as to where they were going to search.

          22       I am not sure whether they were told that before I got

          23       there, but I had made a note that the -- of the

          24       parameters that they were going to search.

          25   Q.  Were you aware that one of those search areas for them


                                           180
 

 

 


           1       was the interior of the minicab?

           2   A.  No.  As far as I was concerned, the taxi was going to

           3       have a full lift and taken to a forensic garage for

           4       examination.

           5   Q.  By "lift", are you talking the same language as most of

           6       use: picked up and taken away?

           7   A.  Yes, picked up onto a low loader and driven to the

           8       garage where, at some stage, it would be examined

           9       forensically.

          10   Q.  Did you approach the minicab yourself?

          11   A.  I did at some stage in the afternoon.  I am not

          12       absolutely sure what time it was, but I did approach the

          13       vehicle.

          14   Q.  Right.  Had it been sealed by then?

          15   A.  As far as I remember, yes, it had.

          16   Q.  So that's the sort of exhibit labels stuck over doors

          17       and hatchways and so on?

          18   A.  I cannot recall exactly what they looked like, but they

          19       looked like white sticky labels that had been put across

          20       the doors of the car.  And I would assume signed by the

          21       Exhibits Officer.

          22   Q.  Did you look inside?

          23   A.  Yes, I did.

          24   Q.  Presumably the doors were shut, were they?

          25   A.  Yes, that's right.


                                           181
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Can we have a look at the photograph that we have now

           2       got that shows the inside with the door open, taken --

           3       I am not suggesting you were there when this was taken.

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  We can see in here there's a box in the back with its

           6       lid off.  We can see, just about, that, between the rows

           7       of seats, there's a brownish rug and we can see, in

           8       front of the seats to our left, just about see, an

           9       orange plastic bag.  Can you recall seeing any of that?

          10   A.  I was on the opposite side of the car, looking in the

          11       opposite -- where that black -- where there's a car

          12       parked there, I looked in from that side.  And I saw the

          13       box, I didn't really take much notice of the bag or

          14       anything else in there.  It was a matter of seconds

          15       I looked in there.

          16   Q.  Can you help us about whether the box was still in

          17       roughly that position?

          18   A.  As far as I remember, yes, it was, or thereabouts, but

          19       I can -- you know, it's a long time.

          20   Q.  Can you help us with what time you left the scene?

          21   A.  At 15.20, 3.20 pm.

          22   Q.  By that stage, the interior had not been examined, had

          23       it?

          24   A.  No.

          25   Q.  By then, had the search parameters changed, as far as


                                           182
 

 

 


           1       you were aware?

           2   A.  Not as far as I remember.  I know I didn't go near the

           3       car, the taxi, until all the fingerprint examinations

           4       had been carried out.

           5   Q.  So when you left the scene, were you expecting that the

           6       interior of the minicab would only be examined after the

           7       vehicle had been removed?

           8   A.  Yes, I would expect it to have been examined at the

           9       forensic lab.  As far as I remember, everything around

          10       the vehicle had been searched and then it would be

          11       lifted, taken away and then the rest of the -- the

          12       underneath of it would be searched, and then, as far as

          13       I knew, that was probably the end of the parameter

          14       searches.

          15           I can remember vaguely when I first got there, we

          16       discussed maybe which order they were going to be done

          17       in, and I think the grass on the other side was the

          18       first place that would be done and then the road and

          19       then there was an area -- there was a block of flats or

          20       something on the other side and we discussed were we

          21       going to go that far but we didn't, we said we would

          22       look at that later when we've -- when most of it has

          23       been completed to see if that's to be done.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, Mr Kirkpatrick.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?


                                           183
 

 

 


           1                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon.  I represent the Duggan

           3       family.  Just a few things.  So do I understand that

           4       10.51 am is the first time you attended the scene on

           5       behalf of the IPCC?

           6   A.  No, no, sir.  I was there the previous night.

           7   Q.  When did you first go?

           8   A.  (Pause)

           9           I arrived there -- well, I started making notes at

          10       21.50, 9.50 pm, so I cannot say exactly when I got there

          11       or not but that's when I first started making some

          12       notes.

          13   Q.  I want to know -- I certainly want to know when you

          14       first got there.  Can you help about when you first got

          15       to the scene?

          16   A.  I've -- I can't remember exactly what time it was that

          17       I got there.

          18   Q.  I don't want you to remember now, but is there any

          19       record, log or whatever of when you got there?

          20   A.  There would probably be a log from the police loggist on

          21       the outer cordon.

          22   Q.  Don't you keep a record?

          23   A.  I started making notes at 21.50, so whether I arrived at

          24       21.50 or a bit earlier, I don't know, I can't --

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It doesn't say in the notes?


                                           184
 

 

 


           1   A.  I started to make my notes at 21.50, sir.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The first thing when you write your

           3       notes isn't "I arrived at".

           4   A.  No, sir.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Why not?

           6   A.  I just didn't write it, sir.  Can I just say that might

           7       have been the time that I actually arrived there, sir.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It might have been, but you have not

           9       written it down.

          10   A.  But I didn't actually say I have arrived.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Nobody is expecting you to remember

          12       back now two years but, quite often, one might expect to

          13       see in the notes, the first thing you write down

          14       "Arrived at" and then the time and after that whatever

          15       else you want to say but that's not the way you are

          16       trained or the way you go about your notes?

          17   A.  That's the way I started my notes, sir, at 21.50.

          18   MR MANSFIELD:  Can I just follow on from a question from the

          19       learned Coroner; are you trained at all?

          20   A.  Yes, trained in a number of matters, yes.

          21   Q.  Are you trained as an IPCC investigator?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  To do what?

          24   A.  Well, to investigate.  I haven't been told that I have

          25       to write down -- when I arrive somewhere that I have to


                                           185
 

 

 


           1       write down what time I arrived, as far as I'm aware.

           2   Q.  What were you doing there?

           3   A.  I was there to help -- assist with the investigation.

           4   Q.  In what way?

           5   A.  Well, I -- initially, I was the -- what you call

           6       a loggist, I was making notes about what people were

           7       saying at the scene.

           8   Q.  A loggist is supposed to keep a record of as precise

           9       a time as possible, if that's your function, of

          10       everything?

          11   A.  As I have said, sir, I cannot answer anymore clearly

          12       than that.  I didn't write down "I arrived at 21.50",

          13       I started my notes at 21.50.

          14   Q.  What time did you leave?

          15   A.  (Pause)

          16           It was some time after -- around 2.30 -- my last

          17       entry was 2 -- 02.18 in the morning of the 5th.

          18   Q.  Is there a record that you made of when you left the

          19       scene?

          20   A.  Not exactly, sir, no.

          21   Q.  Is there any note, even inexactly, of when you left the

          22       scene?

          23   A.  Well, I would have left after 2.18.

          24   Q.  Is there a note of when you left the scene, either

          25       roughly --


                                           186
 

 

 


           1   A.  I've answered that, no.

           2   Q.  No, so there's no note of when you arrived, no note of

           3       when you left.  Just continuing, sorry, these are not

           4       idle questions, they are intended to discover what your

           5       role was there, in relation to a minicab that's sitting

           6       in the street.  You saw the minicab when you first

           7       arrived, did you?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  Did you look at it?

          10   A.  I didn't go and look at it, no, there was an outer

          11       cordon in place and I --

          12   Q.  Did you go through any cordons?

          13   A.  I went to the outer cordon but I didn't go into the

          14       inner cordon or to see -- or actually to look at the

          15       taxi, I wouldn't do that.

          16   Q.  Who's in charge of the scene then at that time?

          17   A.  I would say at that time either the Crime Scene Manager

          18       or one of the --

          19   Q.  Who was that then?

          20   A.  I don't know who it was.  Oh, I know the Crime Scene

          21       Manager was Trish Harrigan -- Larrigan -- yes, Trisha

          22       Larrigan was the Crime Scene Manager.

          23   Q.  Did you talk to her?

          24   A.  I can't recall actually talking to her, no.  She may

          25       have given us --


                                           187
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Were you briefed by her?

           2   A.  I don't recall -- I may have been there when she was

           3       talking to us, I wasn't actually briefed by her.

           4   Q.  It's a precise question: were you briefed by the Crime

           5       Scene Manager when you arrived?

           6   A.  There were a lot of people there when I arrived --

           7   Q.  Yes, I appreciate that.

           8   A.  Well, the answer is I don't know then.

           9   Q.  You don't know?

          10   A.  No.  I was briefed and told things by a number of people

          11       whilst I was there and whether she gave me personally

          12       a full briefing, I don't know.  I wouldn't imagine that

          13       she would give me a full briefing, she would have given

          14       a full briefing to the DSI who was there.

          15   Q.  Who is in charge of the scene in fact?  Is it the IPCC,

          16       is it the DPS, is it the Trident officer; who's in

          17       charge?

          18   A.  Well, I don't know who's in charge on the police side.

          19       As I say, I spoke to Trish Larrigan -- I don't know if

          20       I spoke to her, I made notes of what was being said.

          21       There are other people there: Peter Suggett,

          22       Steve Hatfield (?) was there, a lot of people -- and

          23       there was Stuart Cundy there, he gave us information.

          24       There were a lot of people there who told us --

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were there any other people there


                                           188
 

 

 


           1       from the IPCC?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Who was there from the IPCC?

           4   A.  Yes, there was Colin -- Chris Mehaffey and Richard.

           5   MR MANSFIELD:  Richard who?

           6   A.  Otoshomo (sic).

           7   MR MANSFIELD:  Who, from the IPCC -- if they have taken

           8       charge -- if they have -- taken charge of the scene, who

           9       was there from the IPCC in charge of the scene?

          10   A.  Well, I would say it was Chris Mehaffey, he was the DSI,

          11       the most senior person from the IPCC there.

          12   Q.  Right.  Was he giving -- as far as you could see, was he

          13       gives instructions about the scene?

          14   A.  I was taking notes of what -- I'm sorry, I was taking

          15       notes of what people were telling me.  He asked me to

          16       take notes for him as the loggist.  I wasn't by his side

          17       all the time, so I wouldn't know exactly what he was --

          18       what he was saying to them all the time.  So I can't

          19       say, yes, I was or he did this or he did that, he may

          20       have made notes of his own of what he did --

          21       I wouldn't -- if he was going with the CSM into the

          22       inner cordon or to the area around the taxi we would not

          23       all be going there because otherwise we would start

          24       messing up with the scene.  So if he's in there talking

          25       to somebody and I'm not right next to him, I don't know


                                           189
 

 

 


           1       what he saying.

           2   Q.  No.  You are he the loggist; did you keep a record of

           3       his decisions?

           4   A.  I kept record of a number of things that I was either

           5       told -- I don't know if I made -- if he made decisions

           6       while I was not next to him and he telling somebody,

           7       then, no, I probably wouldn't.

           8           So, as I say, I wouldn't be there by his side every

           9       single second that I was there.  I was seeing other

          10       people, I went to see the FLOs at some stage, I had

          11       Michael Vaughan there --

          12   Q.  So the jury understand, they're the family liaison

          13       officers, is it, the FLOs?

          14   A.  Yes, the police family liaison officers.  I was taking

          15       information from a lot of people.  So I can't say

          16       exactly when -- you know, I've got timings of when

          17       I made notes, but I can't say exactly what Chris

          18       Mehaffey spoke to Trish Larrigan about or anybody.  If

          19       I was there and I heard it, then I would write it down.

          20   Q.  Do the IPCC keep such a thing as a decision log?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Whose is the responsibility for keeping it?

          23   A.  It would be the lead investigator.

          24   Q.  Who was?

          25   A.  Well, the lead investigator was Colin Sparrowhawk (sic).


                                           190
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Was he there that night?

           2   A.  He wasn't there initially, no.

           3   Q.  When did he come?

           4   A.  I don't know when he actually arrived but I know that

           5       when he left he was there.  He had gone to do the PIP,

           6       as far as I was aware.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have you written down the time he

           8       arrived?

           9   A.  No, I may not have known the time he arrived, sir.  If

          10       I was doing other things, talking to other people, if he

          11       arrived he would not come to me and say "Dave, I'm

          12       here", you know --

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  He wouldn't do that, would he?

          14   A.  No, because it would be logged in by the police cordon

          15       person who was logging them in.  So he wouldn't come to

          16       me "By the way, Dave, I'm here".

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  Minicab driver; did you talk to him?

          18   A.  No, sir.

          19   Q.  Anybody tell you there was a minicab driver there?

          20   A.  I was aware -- I have a -- it says:

          21           "There's a significant witness in the cab taken

          22       home."

          23   Q.  Don't give the name.

          24   A.  I'm not going to say the name:

          25           "There's a significant witness in the cab taken


                                           191
 

 

 


           1       home."

           2           So I didn't --

           3   Q.  Do you have a time for that?

           4   A.  That was -- well, between 21.50 and 21.57, I've written

           5       that down.

           6   Q.  So that is after you have arrived?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Did you know what the minicab driver was saying?

           9   A.  No.

          10   Q.  No?  No one told you?

          11   A.  No, sir.

          12   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Stern?

          14                      Questions by MR STERN

          15   MR STERN:  Mr Kirkpatrick, I wonder if we could look at page

          16       CS2246.  I do not think it will be in that red file.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It will come up on the screen.

          18   MR STERN:  I think this is your statement you made on

          19       17 December 2012.

          20   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          21   Q.  You say that you are an investigator employed by the

          22       Independent Police Complaints Commission.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  5 August, you went to Ferry Lane at about 10.51 am.

          25   A.  Yes, that's correct.


                                           192
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So we now know, I think, what time you did arrive

           2       because you wrote that in your statement.  I thought you

           3       were saying you didn't know what time?

           4   A.  Well, I didn't -- I said I didn't write "I arrived at

           5       21.50 on the 4th".  On the 5th, I've got "1051 hours at

           6       scene".

           7   Q.  So that's the time you arrived?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not 10.50?

           9   A.  10.51, I've got here.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  21.50?

          11   A.  Yes, 10.51 am.

          12   MR STERN:  No, am, am.  One of the things that you looked

          13       at, there was a POLSA team that had searched around the

          14       vehicles and the police vehicles were removed, leaving

          15       the minicab there; is that correct?

          16   A.  Yes, that's right.

          17   Q.  The minicab had been sealed?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  When you looked in, the minicab had already been sealed?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  You saw, and you have pointed out in that photograph,

          22       perhaps we can just have that back up again -- it

          23       doesn't have a number, so I'm sorry, I cannot tell you

          24       what number it is, if you could just focus in -- so the

          25       doors were sealed --


                                           193
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  -- with seals across the openings --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- and you were looking in from the other side, from the

           5       driver's side; is that correct?

           6   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You say seals across the opening.

           8       Was the door actually closed to then and sealed or was

           9       it left open?

          10   A.  I didn't come round this side, sir, I only looked from

          11       that side and I recall that there were seals across the

          12       doors.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

          14   A.  But I couldn't tell you now whether that -- on that side

          15       whether it was a sliding door, if it just opened, but

          16       I do remember seeing the white labels.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On your side?

          18   A.  On my side, yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's just deal with your side.

          20   MR STERN:  Let's just deal with your side and not complicate

          21       it.  But on the other side, the driver's side, there

          22       were seals?

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  You looked in through that window and you could so he

          25       that box in the same format that it is there?


                                           194
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  Right.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Back to your statement --

           4   MR STERN:  You say --

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You say in your statement you saw

           6       that:

           7           "I thought at the time the gun must have previously

           8       been in the shoe box."

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's what you thought at the time.

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you tell anybody that?

          13   A.  I -- I actually asked Nicola if she could see

          14       anything --

          15   MR STERN:  Sorry, Nicola, we don't know who these people

          16       are?

          17   A.  Nicola Heley, the trainee investigator that was with me.

          18       I said "Do you think there's anything unusual inside the

          19       car there?" and she said "Well, there's a shoe box

          20       there" and I said something to the effect of "What

          21       conclusion do you make from that?" and she said "I don't

          22       know", and I said "Well, maybe the gun was in the shoe

          23       box".

          24   Q.  So was this a training exercise, you giving her --

          25   A.  She's a trainee and I do do training, so I was just


                                           195
 

 

 


           1       asking her a question, I wasn't training her.

           2   Q.  I see.  Anyway, as the learned Coroner has said, you

           3       concluded or at least thought that there was one

           4       possibility, that the gun had come from that box?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  So let me ask you the question: did you actually convey

           7       that to anybody?

           8   A.  No, sir.

           9   Q.  I think you thought that all of that would be exhibited,

          10       according to your statement, anyway --

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  -- when the minicab was taken away and forensically

          13       examined?

          14   A.  I would have assumed that when it got to the -- it was

          15       taken to the garage, the forensic garage -- well, one of

          16       the first things they would do was photograph everything

          17       outside it and then if they opened it they would

          18       photograph everything inside it before they actually

          19       started moving everything, and I -- I assumed that they

          20       would think "Well, why is there a shoe box in the car,

          21       in the back of the car".  So -- like I did, I thought

          22       "Well, why is there a shoe box there", and I assumed --

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You thought perhaps there's a gun in

          24       there?

          25   A.  I thought there maybe had been a gun in it.


                                           196
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You would have picked up that box

           2       and put it very carefully into an exhibit bag and sent

           3       it off.

           4   A.  Yes, sir, if I had been either the Exhibits Officer or

           5       the forensic scientist, or whatever, well, I would have

           6       examined it, forensically, and then bagged it up, as

           7       an exhibit.

           8   MR STERN:  It's a shame you weren't.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  Right let's press on.  I think

          10       actually I have you, Mr Keith, next on my list.

          11   MR KEITH:  Good, good.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's always a surprise with this

          13       list.

          14                      Questions by MR KEITH

          15   MR KEITH:  When you were giving evidence, Mr Kirkpatrick, at

          16       the Hutchinson-Foster trial --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  -- these words were put to you: You were, as the IPCC,

          19       in charge of the scene, were you not?  You said: yes.

          20       You could if you so desired, asked Mr Denney, direct the

          21       police to take action.  And you said: "Yes, that's

          22       correct"?

          23   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          24   Q.  That was your understanding of the IPCC's role at the

          25       scene.  You left, on the second day, 5 August, at 3.20,


                                           197
 

 

 


           1       didn't you?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  Around about the time that the Toyota left on the low

           4       loader.

           5   A.  Yes, sir.  I recall it was actually being taken away as

           6       I left the scene.

           7   Q.  Did you know that your boss, Mr Sparrow, decided at

           8       15.05, around about a quarter of an hour before, that in

           9       fact the vehicle should not leave the scene and should

          10       be returned so that there could be a search conducted

          11       there?

          12   A.  I don't recall that, sir.

          13   Q.  Do you recall any of that?

          14   A.  No, sir.  As far as I was concerned, the vehicle was

          15       going to the lab.

          16   Q.  In fact, if we look at CD480, which is an extract from

          17       the action report compiled by the Crime Scene Manager,

          18       Patricia Larrigan, and updated by Mr Cockram -- CD480,

          19       please -- we can see at the top of the page, bottom

          20       entry: recovery of the minicab to Perivale for forensic

          21       examination.

          22           So when you were at the scene, either on the 4th or

          23       the 5th, it had been your understanding, as the IPCC --

          24       one of the IPCC investigators on the scene -- that the

          25       minicab would go to Perivale where there were the


                                           198
 

 

 


           1       facilities for a proper forensic examination?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  Do you know why that decision was countermanded and the

           4       vehicle ordered back to the scene once it had already

           5       been moved?

           6   A.  Well I have heard since why, but I didn't -- I don't

           7       recall knowing at the time.  I wasn't sure -- I wasn't

           8       aware that it was going to be returned to the scene.

           9   Q.  Was it a decision of the Metropolitan Police or of the

          10       IPCC?

          11   A.  I don't know who made that decision.  I know now who's

          12       supposed -- who may have made that decision, but

          13       I didn't know at that time.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't know anything of it at

          15       the time?

          16   A.  No.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were all part of it being lifted

          18       for the first time; you were part of that decision?

          19   A.  Yes, sir.  And, as far as I was concerned, that was it;

          20       it was going to be taken to the lab, the area that it

          21       had been on would be searched and that would probably be

          22       about it.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you see that being searched?

          24   A.  No, sir.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't see that being searched?


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           1   A.  No.  It was literally as I was leaving, and I cannot

           2       remember exactly what was happening, but I'm sure the

           3       low loader had turned up.  And I don't even recall

           4       seeing it being loaded onto the vehicle.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was anything done to mark the road

           6       as to where it was before it was actually moved?

           7   A.  I couldn't say, sir.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't do it?

           9   A.  I didn't do that, sir.

          10   MR KEITH:  The search of outside the vehicle -- the road,

          11       the pavement and so on -- had taken place at 12.50,

          12       hadn't it?  There had been a task 5 POLSA search outside

          13       the Toyota; do you recall that?

          14   A.  No, I haven't got a note of that.

          15   Q.  It was an important matter for the --

          16   A.  Yes, I know.  But I was there to see that all that was

          17       done, and as far as I was concerned it was being done.

          18       As I said, I wouldn't have gone over to the taxi until

          19       that had been done.  In fact I asked -- I recall

          20       asking --

          21   Q.  Mr Kirkpatrick, if it was an important thing that had to

          22       be done, why did you not take a note of it being done?

          23   A.  (Pause)

          24           It was ... well I'm not sure -- can you ask that

          25       question again?  I was watching --


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           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were there to make sure it was

           2       done --

           3   A.  Yes, and as far as I was concerned it was --

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- so Mr Keith said, "Why didn't you

           5       note down that it was being done in your notes"?

           6   A.  Well I probably -- it was happening as I was maybe

           7       handing over to Gareth.  As I say, it may have just --

           8       the low loader may have just arrived when I left, I

           9       can't remember it -- actually seeing it --

          10   MR KEITH:  No, the search outside the Toyota, round about

          11       the road, underneath the tyres, was 12.50 to 13.45.  You

          12       didn't leave until 3.20.  The low loader arrived around

          13       about 3 o'clock.  So why didn't you take a note then?

          14   A.  Well, I haven't taken a note.  I would have expected the

          15       POLSA team to be making notes of when they're doing

          16       things.

          17   Q.  They did, they took voluminous notes.

          18   A.  I don't have to take notes of every single thing that

          19       happens.  I don't follow them around noting every single

          20       thing that happens at every single time.  I would expect

          21       them to do that.

          22   Q.  Can you just tell us please what notes you have been

          23       referring to because we have only one page of notes

          24       given to us.  How many pages of notes do you have

          25       there --


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           1   A.  What, of the two days?

           2   Q.  -- in relation to 4 August?

           3   A.  4 August?

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are you now talking about the 4th or

           5       the 5th?

           6   MR KEITH:  I am going to start with the 4th and move to the

           7       5th because you were there on both days, Mr Kirkpatrick.

           8   A.  I've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven --

           9       seven pages of the 4th.

          10   Q.  And the 5th?

          11   A.  One, two -- two and a half pages.

          12   Q.  All right.  Do you agree that when you arrived on the

          13       4th, alongside Mr Mehaffey, Mr Omotosho and you all

          14       attended at the same time together --

          15   A.  No, we didn't all arrive together.  I came from my

          16       house, Richard obviously came from wherever he was and

          17       Chris came from wherever he was.  I was at home when

          18       I was phoned up and asked if I could attend.  So

          19       I didn't arrive with them.  In fact, it might answer

          20       your question as to why I didn't put down exactly when

          21       I arrived because I didn't know where to go.  So we were

          22       phoning each other asking each other "Where are you,

          23       where do we need to meet at this scene?"

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you arrive as an IPCC person,

          25       do you have any identifying marks on your clothing or do


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           1       you just pick up a card?

           2   A.  Yes, we have orange IPCC jackets or tabards and I would

           3       have my identification with me, because then you have to

           4       find the person who will let you in the cordon and --

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  And they can find you.

           6   A.  Well, yes, and, as far as I remember, I can't -- I won't

           7       say this is absolutely right, but I was at one end of

           8       the cordon and I had to find my way to get to where the

           9       person who was actually letting you in because they

          10       wouldn't let you -- as far as I can remember, where the

          11       block of flats was, I think it was a college, something

          12       to do with the college or something, they wouldn't let

          13       you walk up the pavement.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  From that side, yes.

          15   A.  So I had to find a way round to get to the -- wherever

          16       I had to go, which I cannot remember exactly where it

          17       was but it's not just as simple as you turn up and they

          18       say "Oh, yeah, come in", you may have to go and find the

          19       person to let you in.

          20   MR KEITH:  All right, Mr Kirkpatrick --

          21   A.  We didn't all turn up in one car all together.

          22   Q.  I do not want to be accused of being unfair to you.  We

          23       must move on.

          24   A.  Yes, okay.

          25   Q.  Do you agree that you, or at least your fellow


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           1       officers -- your fellow investigators, rather, at the

           2       IPCC -- discussed, throughout 4 and 5 August, with the

           3       police and approved the initial action plan for the

           4       forensic search, the carrying out of the forensic

           5       actions that were identified, the initial assessment of

           6       the scene carried out by Crime Scene Manager Larrigan

           7       and also approved the forensic strategy which she set

           8       down?

           9   A.  I can't say that -- I can't personally say that all

          10       those things were done, but, yes, I would expect it of

          11       the IPCC to be in charge of sorting all that out because

          12       they're -- or we -- are in charge of the investigation

          13       whenever -- I don't know the exact time that we said we

          14       are taking this over independently but once we do,

          15       that's it, we're in charge.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Orange jacket on and you are in

          17       charge?

          18   A.  Exactly.

          19   MR KEITH:  Could you look at CE223, please, finally?  This

          20       is the POLSA advice log produced by Paula Mugglestone,

          21       the Inspector of whom we have spoken.  5 August, just by

          22       the second holepunch:

          23           "10.05, I attend the scene, make contact with IO on

          24       scene."

          25           Further down, next entry, 5 August:


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           1           "Advised by DI Suggett and with consent of IPCC

           2       representatives (David and Nicola)."

           3           Are you David?

           4   A.  Yes.  I remember at that -- because I'm sure tha