Transcript of the Hearing 8 October 2013

 

           1                                        Tuesday, 8 October 2013

           2   (10.30 am)


          11                  (In the presence of the jury)

          12                           Housekeeping

          13   MR MANSFIELD:  Just before we begin today, we have asked if

          14       the rest of the photographs that were originally in

          15       a bundle be added to the jury bundle -- I make a mild

          16       suggestion that, since they're from the same bundle as

          17       the ones the jury already have at number 9 and

          18       number 10, that all they do is to number these

          19       photographs, 10A, 10B, 10C, 10D after number 10.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That sounds very sensible.  Let's

          21       all do that.

          22   MR MANSFIELD:  So they come after photograph number 10, you

          23       already have.  This is the rest of that bundle, showing

          24       Vicarage Road.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Mr Mansfield.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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           1           Members of the jury, if you could do that then.

           2           Then, Mr Underwood, what is in store for us this

           3       morning?

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  We have as you know, by video link

           5       Mr Hutchinson-Foster, who is in Maidstone and I propose

           6       to call him first.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let me speak to him directly,

           8       please.

           9             (Video link from Maidstone Crown Court)

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you see me and hear from me,

          11       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?

          12   THE WITNESS:  Yes, I can.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am Judge Cutler, I'm sitting as

          14       a coroner into the Inquest which is touching on the

          15       death of Mark Duggan and we are asking you to assist us

          16       by giving some evidence this morning.

          17           I want to start then, please, with you either taking

          18       the oath or affirming before you are asked questions so

          19       can I ask that to be done.

          20              MR KEVIN HUTCHINSON-FOSTER (affirmed)

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I shall be here looking after the

          22       proceedings, Mr Hutchinson-Foster.  In a moment

          23       a barrister will be asking you some questions and there

          24       will be other barristers wanting to ask you further

          25       questions.  I am not sure how long it will all go on


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           1       for.  If there's any problems and you do want a break,

           2       just let me know and we can stop the proceedings for

           3       a short time whilst that's done.  But let's see how we

           4       get on.  So you remain seated and answer, please, the

           5       questions that are put to you to the best of your

           6       ability.

           7           All right, I'll ask Mr Underwood to begin those

           8       questions.

           9                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Mr Hutchinson-Foster, can you

          11       hear me?

          12   A.  Yes, I can hear you.

          13   Q.  My name is Underwood and I'm counsel to the Inquest so

          14       I'll start the questions all right.

          15           Firstly, I want to ask you, you are currently

          16       serving a prison sentence for, amongst other things

          17       being convicted of transferring the gun to Mr Duggan,

          18       aren't you?

          19   A.  Yes, I am.

          20   Q.  Now, have you lodged an appeal against that conviction?

          21   A.  I have not been able to.

          22   Q.  Okay, thank you.

          23   A.  Until --

          24   Q.  Sorry, until what?

          25   A.  I have not been able to until this has been concluded.


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           1   Q.  I see.  Are you intending to, if you get a chance?

           2   A.  Yes, I will do.

           3   Q.  Right.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think that, in that case, you must

           5       come back to me then, please.

           6           Can I be on the screen?  Thank you.

           7           Mr Hutchinson-Foster, the questions that you're

           8       being asked, you would be entitled to refuse to answer

           9       them if you felt that they incriminated you in any way

          10       and would prejudice your appeal if that should happen,

          11       or any retrial if that should happen; do you understand?

          12   A.  Understood.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If there's any problems -- hear the

          14       questions, if there's any problems about whether and how

          15       you should answer them, then, again, I'll give you

          16       a break or I can come on the screen and talk to you

          17       directly at that stage.  All right?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's see how we go.  Thank you.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  I want to first of all ask you about

          21       July 2011.  Then, had you fairly recently been released

          22       from prison?

          23   A.  I was released in April 2011.

          24   Q.  Were you on licence?

          25   A.  Yes, I was.


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           1   Q.  So were you seeing a probation officer?

           2   A.  Yes, I was.

           3   Q.  Did that probation officer have your mobile telephone

           4       number?

           5   A.  Yes, she did.

           6   Q.  Was that the one that ended in 567; can you recall?

           7   A.  I believe so, yes.

           8   Q.  Okay.  What were the conditions of your licence, can you

           9       recall?

          10   A.  No, I can't.

          11   Q.  Did you have to stay at a bail hostel or anything like

          12       that?

          13   A.  Something similar to -- yes.

          14   Q.  Was there a curfew on that?

          15   A.  No, there wasn't.

          16   Q.  Right.  Did the probation officer have that address as

          17       well as your phone number?

          18   A.  Yes, she did.

          19   Q.  I don't want to ask you in detail about contact you had

          20       with Mark Duggan for the moment but, in general, were

          21       you in touch with Mark Duggan over the course of late

          22       July and early August?

          23   A.  Yes, I was.

          24   Q.  Did you have a girlfriend in Burchell Road in Leyton?

          25   A.  Yes, I did.


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           1   Q.  Moving now into early August, can you recall whether on

           2       the 2 or 3 August what her working pattern was, what her

           3       hours were?

           4   A.  She didn't have a job.

           5   Q.  Okay.  Were there any particular times when you went

           6       round to her to see her in the early few days of

           7       August 2011?

           8   A.  Whenever it suited me.

           9   Q.  Okay.  Now, I think you accept, don't you, that you used

          10       a gun wrapped in a sock to hit somebody with on

          11       29 July 2011?

          12   A.  I don't recall the dates precisely but I did plead

          13       guilty to an offence of that nature.

          14   Q.  That was the Lagoon salon, was it?

          15   A.  Yes, it was.

          16   Q.  I think you accept, don't you, that that's the gun that

          17       ended up at the scene in Ferry Lane when Mr Duggan was

          18       shot?

          19   A.  I do not accept but I've had to just -- I have had to

          20       take the word of the CPS for that.  I'm not certain.

          21   Q.  Let's just get clear.  You were prosecuted for

          22       transferring that gun to Mr Duggan and at Snaresbrook

          23       the jury couldn't agree about that; is that right?

          24   A.  Correct.

          25   Q.  Then you were prosecuted a second time, this time at the


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           1       Old Bailey and this time the jury convicted you of it;

           2       is that right?

           3   A.  Correct.

           4   Q.  During the course of those trials you heard evidence

           5       about the gun that was found at Ferry Lane being the one

           6       that you used at the Lagoon salon; is that right?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Did you also hear evidence during that time that the box

           9       that was found in the minicab at Ferry Lane was a box

          10       that you had handled and provided to Mr Duggan?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  The basis then of the conviction was -- again, I don't

          13       want to go into all the details of it -- was really that

          14       you had had that gun at a stage in late July, it had

          15       your fingerprints and DNA on it, that the box had your

          16       fingerprints on, and also that there was phone contact

          17       between you and Mr Duggan when you were in Burchell Road

          18       and he was in the Burchell Road area on 4 August; is

          19       that right?

          20   A.  That isn't correct because my fingerprints was not on

          21       any firearms.

          22   Q.  It was your DNA, was it?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Sorry.  Also, you'll recall, could you, that the taxi

          25       driver who had driven the minicab gave evidence of a man


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           1       coming out and handing that box over to Mr Duggan; do

           2       you recall that evidence?

           3   A.  I recall the evidence, yes.

           4   Q.  He said the man essentially fitted your description; is

           5       that fair?

           6   A.  Fitting a description but obviously he had the chance to

           7       see me and he said it wasn't me so --

           8   Q.  Yes.  Let's get that clear: he had a chance to do

           9       a video identification parade and he didn't pick you

          10       out; is that right?

          11   A.  Correct.

          12   Q.  How do you account for the gun that you had on 29 July

          13       getting into Mr Duggan's hands, assuming it's the same

          14       gun?

          15   A.  I don't know.

          16   Q.  How about the box?

          17   A.  I couldn't tell you specifically how the box got there

          18       but previously I had handled (handed?) other (over?)

          19       boxes at football and given the box to Mark before.

          20   Q.  It could have been that box, you think?  Is that what

          21       you're saying?

          22   A.  Yes, it could have been, correct.

          23   Q.  Let's get this clear: the evidence of the taxi driver at

          24       the trial was that somebody came out in Burchell Road or

          25       Vicarage Road, gave that box, which presumably had the


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           1       gun in it at that stage, to Mark Duggan while Mark

           2       Duggan was in the minicab, and you're saying that wasn't

           3       you, are you?

           4   A.  It wasn't me.

           5   Q.  What were you doing in Burchell Road that led Mr Duggan

           6       to come to Burchell Road; can you tell us that?

           7   A.  What was I doing in Burchell Road?  I was in a house on

           8       Burchell Road.

           9   Q.  Can you explain why Mr Duggan came there?

          10   A.  He wanted me to follow him somewhere but I told him

          11       I was busy and I never expected him to come to Burchell

          12       Road or to Vicarage Road wherever it is that he came.

          13   Q.  You see, we know he came to either Burchell Road or

          14       Vicarage Road at about 3 or 4 minutes to 6, probably, on

          15       the evening of 11 August and we know he was talking to

          16       you by phone at very much the same time and you're

          17       saying that, nonetheless, you didn't come out to meet

          18       him; is that it?

          19   A.  He asked me on a couple of occasions to follow him

          20       somewhere to try and convince me to follow him to

          21       Tottenham and I told him that I had other arrangements

          22       so I couldn't have followed him.

          23   Q.  You didn't even go out of the house to even meet him; is

          24       that it?

          25   A.  No, I didn't -- no, I didn't.


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           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well, thank you very much.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That concludes the questions from

           3       Mr Underwood.  Then are there questions then from you,

           4       Mr Mansfield or Mr Straw on behalf of the family; is

           5       that right?

           6                      Questions by MR STRAW

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you see Mr Straw

           8       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?  He will be asking you some

           9       questions now.

          10   A.  Yes, I can.

          11   MR STRAW:  I'm quite a long way from the microphone so

          12       please let me know if you can't hear.

          13   A.  I can hear you loud and clear.

          14   Q.  Right.  Thank you.  You were asked about the probation

          15       hostel that you had in summer 2011.  Was that the --

          16   A.  Correct --

          17   Q.  The Nevill Road probation hostel?

          18   A.  Yes, it was.

          19   Q.  On 4 August, do you remember if you went to the Nevill

          20       Road hostel during the morning or lunchtime on that day?

          21   A.  I think I may have, yes.

          22   Q.  Later that day, you said you went to the house on

          23       Burchell Road; was that Desire Cox's house?

          24   A.  Yes, it was.

          25   Q.  Do you remember what sort of time you arrived there?


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           1   A.  Early afternoon.

           2   Q.  Is it right that you stayed there from early afternoon

           3       until about 6.00 pm?

           4   A.  Until about then, yes.

           5   Q.  Do you remember what you were doing during the afternoon

           6       in the house?

           7   A.  (Laughs) yes.

           8   Q.  Were you sleeping or in bed?

           9   A.  I was in bed, then sleeping (laughs).

          10   Q.  Mr Hutchinson-Foster, you may not have these photos but

          11       I am just going to show some photos to the members of

          12       the jury.

          13           Members of the jury, you have just been handed some

          14       new photographs in your bundle and they are photos of

          15       Burchell Road.  It's CD20683 and, for the members of the

          16       jury, that's also got a number 2 in the bottom

          17       right-hand corner.  It's a photograph of Burchell Road

          18       with some houses on the left, a terrace house, and we

          19       know that Ms Cox lived in one of those houses.

          20           Mr Hutchinson-Foster, can you see a photograph up on

          21       the screen in front of you?

          22   A.  Yes, I can.

          23   Q.  Is it right that you were in one of those houses on the

          24       left during the afternoon on 4 August?

          25   A.  Correct.


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           1   Q.  That road, Burchell Road, it was a cul-de-sac wasn't it,

           2       a dead end?

           3   A.  Yes, it was.

           4   Q.  So it was a quiet street with little traffic?

           5   A.  Yes, correct.

           6   Q.  Were you familiar with the location on Ferry Lane where

           7       Mr Duggan was shot by the police?

           8   A.  Yes, I am.

           9   Q.  It's the point on Ferry Lane opposite the shopping

          10       centre; that is right, isn't it?

          11   A.  Yes, it is.

          12   Q.  There are bus stops nearby and the exit to Tottenham

          13       Hale Tube station.

          14   A.  Correct.

          15   Q.  It's a main road, it's a busier road, isn't it, than

          16       Burchell Road?

          17   A.  Very much so, yes.

          18   Q.  The final question: August 2011, how long had you known

          19       Desire Cox for?

          20   A.  (Pause) About six years.

          21   Q.  About six years, okay.  Had you had an on and off

          22       relationship with her during that time?

          23   A.  Yes, I did.

          24   Q.  Is it right you went to her house on Burchell Road

          25       regularly?


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           1   A.  Regularly.

           2   Q.  Okay.  Some of your belongings were stored there; is

           3       that right?

           4   A.  Correct, yes.

           5   Q.  Do you remember how you got there on 4 August from your

           6       hostel to her house?

           7   A.  I drove.

           8   Q.  You drove, okay.  Did you drive in a car that was yours

           9       or that you had hired?

          10   A.  Yes, hired.

          11   MR STRAW:  Hired, okay.  Thank you very much.

          12   A.  You're welcome.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Hutchinson-Foster.

          14       Let's see if there are other people who would like to

          15       ask you questions.

          16           Mr Stern?  Mr Thomas, no.

          17           Mr Stern is now going to ask you some questions, all

          18       right?  Thank you.

          19                      Questions by MR STERN

          20   MR STERN:  Can we come back to one of the questions you were

          21       asked by Mr Underwood, which is whether the gun and the

          22       sock that was found on 4 August 2011 on the grass verge

          23       was the very gun that you had used in a violent assault

          24       on 29 July.

          25   A.  I hadn't seen the gun that I'd used.


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           1   Q.  You hadn't seen the gun?

           2   A.  I never took it out of the sock so I don't know what it

           3       looked like.

           4   Q.  I see.  You were asked this question during the course

           5       of your trial, weren't you?

           6   A.  I'm sure I was, yes.

           7   Q.  In your defence statement, which is a statement that you

           8       present to the course as part of your defence, you dealt

           9       with this issue, didn't you?

          10   A.  Vaguely, yes.

          11   Q.  For anyone who wants the page -- though it's a short

          12       paragraph, I can read it -- it's 18224 and it says this:

          13           "The defendant ..."

          14           That was you because it was your trial:

          15           "... does not know the make or model of the weapon

          16       but, on the evidence available to date, accepts it is

          17       likely to be the weapon said to be recovered by officers

          18       on 4 August 2011."

          19           Do you agree that it's likely to be the same weapon?

          20   A.  Like I said, I can't 100 per cent say if it was or

          21       wasn't because I didn't look at it.  But it could be,

          22       yes, a possibility.

          23   Q.  It's more than a possibility, isn't it, because it had

          24       your blood on it, both on the gun and on the sock,

          25       didn't it?


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           1   A.  I can agree with that but, like I said, I did not

           2       visibly see the gun so I cannot tell you if it was or it

           3       wasn't.

           4   Q.  It had the blood of Peter -- I'll call him Peter O --

           5       the person you assaulted on 29 July, both on the gun and

           6       the sock, didn't it?

           7   A.  Correct, which is why I said it's probably -- it's

           8       likely to be.  Like I said, I didn't see the gun

           9       visibly.

          10   Q.  Was there another gun that you had used to bludgeon

          11       Peter O?

          12   A.  No, there wasn't another gun.

          13   Q.  Was there another gun where you had been involved in

          14       a fight with him where he may have bled on a weapon or

          15       a sock?

          16   A.  Like I said, no, I don't think so.

          17   Q.  Was there another gun that you had been involved in and

          18       used?

          19   A.  I've answered that question already: I said no.

          20   Q.  Right.  So this is, according to you, the only gun that

          21       you had ever used, correct?

          22   A.  Correct.

          23   Q.  It was the only gun that you had hit Peter O with,

          24       correct?

          25   A.  Yes --


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           1   Q.  It had --

           2   A.  -- yes.

           3   Q.  I'm sorry, it had your blood and his blood on it.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Let's look at what you said when you were asked these

           6       questions by counsel during the course of your trial.

           7       I'm going to go to CHF4398.  I gather there is somebody

           8       there who has the document and will be able to show it

           9       to you, Mr Hutchinson-Foster.  It will be up on screen

          10       I'm told, so you will be able to see it up on there.

          11           I want to start at letter F, two thirds of the way

          12       down:

          13           "Now, the Crown have produced a gun in this case,

          14       covered in a sock."

          15           This is questions by your own counsel during the

          16       course of the trial:

          17           "Can you tell us, did the gun in the sock that you

          18       had on 29 July look like the gun in a sock produced to

          19       the jury?

          20           "Answer: Could have been, yes.

          21           "Questions: Do you actually know that it was one and

          22       the same or not?

          23           "Answer: I never took it out to look on it so

          24       I wouldn't be certain.

          25           "Question: Does it appear to be the same sort of


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           1       gun?

           2           "Answer: Yes."

           3           Can we look now at 4482, please?  This is

           4       cross-examination, the same point at letter B.

           5           "Question: You do admit, do you not, that the gun at

           6       Ferry Lane is the gun you used on Peter O just a few

           7       days before?

           8           "Answer: Possibly, yes.

           9           "Question: What other possibilities are there if

          10       it's not the same gun?

          11           "Answer: I don't know.

          12           "Question: Let us just see where we are on this.

          13       You have said consistently it's possibly the same gun?

          14           "Answer: Yes.

          15           "Question: What are the alternatives please?

          16           "Answer: I could not help you on that.

          17           "Question: There is none, is there?

          18           "Answer: I couldn't help you, I can only tell you my

          19       point of view and that's what I've done.  I can't tell

          20       you stuff I don't know.

          21           "Question: Just have a think about it.  Your blood

          22       on the gun, you don't dispute that, do you?

          23           "Answer: No.

          24           "Question: His blood on the gun, don't dispute

          25       that?"


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           1           Then over the page you say that you would not be

           2       able to tell --

           3           "Question: How could it be any other gun?

           4           "Answer: I would not be able to tell you, sir.

           5           "Question: You didn't give it to the police, did

           6       you, so they could plant it at Ferry Lane, did you?

           7           "Answer: Definitely not."

           8   A.  Correct.

           9   Q.  I am just going to give you an opportunity to look at

          10       these.  4542, please.

          11   A.  Okay.

          12   Q.  At letter C you're asked, again, on this point:

          13           "How many guns have you got your blood onto?

          14           "Answer: I don't know.

          15           How is it you don't know how many guns you've got

          16       your blood on?

          17   A.  Is that a rhetorical question?

          18   Q.  No, it's a question.  I'm asking you: how is it that you

          19       don't know?

          20   A.  I don't know.

          21   Q.  Well, you tell us, just a moment ago, you've only ever

          22       touched one gun.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Well, if that's true, the answer to this "How many guns

          25       have you got your blood on?" would be "Only this one",


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           1       wouldn't it?

           2   A.  Possibly, yes.

           3   Q.  You say:

           4           "I've only ever been in possession of one gun in any

           5       relevance to Peter O or anything else."

           6   A.  Correct.

           7   Q.  Are you saying that you are so indifferent to guns that

           8       you didn't even trouble to look at it properly?

           9   A.  I didn't need to, I didn't intend on using it.

          10   Q.  But you did use it -- you did use it.

          11   A.  Yes, I did.  But I didn't intend on using it to shoot

          12       him, so I just used it for whatever reason that I used

          13       it for.

          14   Q.  Let's just look then at 29 July 2011 and see what you

          15       did actually do, as you said you didn't use it.  As

          16       I understand it --

          17   A.  I never said I didn't use it.  I said I never used it to

          18       shoot him.  I never intended to shoot him with it so

          19       I didn't need to look at it.

          20   Q.  All right.  Let's look at that.  You decided to go to

          21       a salon, this Lagoon salon, did you not, on 29 July?

          22   A.  Correct.

          23   Q.  You had never been there before?  (Pause)

          24           I think that that's what you said in evidence before

          25       but if you want to change that.


                                            19
 

 

 


           1   A.  I've never been in there before but I've been past it.

           2   Q.  I'm not saying that.  But you hadn't been in there to

           3       have any of the whatever you went in there to have, your

           4       hair cut?

           5   A.  No, I hadn't been there before.

           6   Q.  You said that you didn't know that Peter O was there at

           7       all.

           8   A.  I didn't.

           9   Q.  Then you had a bit of an argument with him, didn't you?

          10   A.  Correct.

          11   Q.  There was no violence, was there, at that stage?

          12   A.  Pushing and shoving.

          13   Q.  Well, pushing and shoving, but that was it, wasn't it?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  That was the extent of the violence: a little bit of

          16       pushing and shoving, yes?

          17   A.  At first, yes.

          18   Q.  Well, at first.  Was there anything before you left, on

          19       the first occasion?

          20   A.  I just explained what happened before I left.

          21   Q.  I am just asking you, was there any other violence apart

          22       from pushing and shoving on the first occasion, before

          23       you left?

          24   A.  No, there wasn't.

          25   Q.  Right.  As you're leaving, you say, "I'll be back", yes?


                                            20
 

 

 


           1   A.  I said that in retort to something he had said to me.

           2   Q.  You decided at that point to get a gun, didn't you?

           3   A.  Correct.

           4   Q.  You decided to go and get a lethal weapon following

           5       a little bit of pushing and shoving.

           6   A.  If that's your opinion, yes.

           7   Q.  Well, it's not an opinion; that's what you did, isn't

           8       it?

           9   A.  Yes, you didn't hear what he said to me so, like I said,

          10       that's your opinion.  That's what I did.

          11   Q.  Obviously I didn't hear what he said because I wasn't

          12       there, but the fact is you went --

          13   A.  Correct.

          14   Q.  -- to go and get a lethal weapon following whatever it

          15       was he said and a little bit of pushing and shoving,

          16       yes?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Not a baseball bat, not a bit of wood not a metal bar

          19       but a lethal weapon; that's what you went to get, wasn't

          20       it?

          21   A.  Correct.

          22   Q.  You must have known, as you said those words, "I'll be

          23       back", that you had access to a gun.

          24   A.  Correct.

          25   Q.  If it weren't your gun, how would you know that the


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       person whose gun it was would be available for you to be

           2       able to contact them?

           3   A.  I didn't.

           4   Q.  Did you have a range of people that you might be able to

           5       ask for a gun then?

           6   A.  No, I didn't.

           7   Q.  You knew perfectly well that you could go and get a gun

           8       straightaway, didn't you?

           9   A.  No, I didn't.

          10   Q.  Within an hour and a quarter of leaving those premises,

          11       you were back with a gun, weren't you?

          12   A.  Yes, I was.

          13   Q.  Now, you say that you got the gun from a man who you are

          14       not prepared to name; that's what you said in your

          15       trial, wasn't it?

          16   A.  Correct.

          17   Q.  Is that still the position?

          18   A.  Yes, it is.

          19   Q.  You are not prepared to tell us where or who that person

          20       is?

          21   A.  No.

          22   Q.  You see, let me ask you this -- this is not a trial, you

          23       are not on trial, you've already been convicted -- but

          24       let me ask you this --

          25   A.  Correct.


                                            22
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- there is a time for this to stop, isn't there?

           2   A.  For what to stop?

           3   Q.  Firearms to stop, before they get in the hands of young

           4       people --

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  -- and people get killed, don't they?

           7   A.  People get killed from knives, from many forms of things

           8       in life.

           9   Q.  That's your answer, is it?

          10   A.  I'm just saying.  You're saying to me that they kill.

          11       I'm making an example and a point, just like you.

          12   Q.  Can we take it, if you did get the gun from somebody

          13       else, as you say you did, that that person must have had

          14       complete trust in you?

          15   A.  I suppose so, yes.

          16   Q.  The trust that you wouldn't take that gun to the police

          17       and report them.

          18   A.  I can't talk for anybody else but myself so that would

          19       be insinuating and assuming and I don't want to do that.

          20   Q.  Well, no one would give you a gun if they thought you

          21       were going to go directly to the police, would they?

          22   A.  Like I said, I'm not going to insinuate or assume.

          23   Q.  Also, that person must have known that you would never

          24       say who it was who had given you the gun and you

          25       haven't, have you, if it's true that you got the gun


                                            23
 

 

 


           1       from somebody else?

           2   A.  I haven't, no --

           3   Q.  Pardon?

           4   A.  I haven't said who or where it came from.

           5   Q.  No, exactly, because that person's fingerprints could

           6       have been on the gun, couldn't they?

           7   A.  Possibly.

           8   Q.  Why did Mark Duggan want a gun?

           9   A.  (Pause) Is that meant to be a trick question or funny

          10       question or something?

          11   Q.  It's not a trick question, it's a question: why did Mark

          12       Duggan want a gun?

          13   A.  How would I know?

          14   Q.  Within a short time, an hour and a quarter, you got

          15       a gun in a sock, yes?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  You didn't check whether it had bullets in it?

          18   A.  I didn't need to.

          19   Q.  What do you mean you didn't need to?

          20   A.  Like I said to you, I didn't intend to shoot anyone with

          21       it, so I didn't need to check anything.

          22   Q.  Well, that's what you say, but supposing somebody had

          23       taken that gun from you, wrestled that gun from you, and

          24       wanted to fire it at you.

          25   A.  Then it would be my problem.


                                            24
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You had no interest whether it had a bullet or not?

           2   A.  No, I didn't.

           3   Q.  You didn't care one way or the other?

           4   A.  I wouldn't go as far as to say that I didn't care one

           5       way or the other but, like I said to you repeatedly,

           6       I didn't intend to shoot anyone so I didn't need to

           7       check it.

           8   Q.  But the thing is, if somebody sees you with a gun, they

           9       might shoot you, mightn't they?

          10   A.  I don't know how to answer that question.

          11   Q.  What you're saying is you deliberately went out to get

          12       a gun, you must have considered all these issues very

          13       carefully?

          14   A.  I didn't consider all those things, someone threatened

          15       me, I was angry, I left and I came back and the result

          16       is me being in prison for assaulting him, so that's all

          17       there is to it.

          18   Q.  Your temper was still up an hour and a quarter later?

          19   A.  Pardon?

          20   Q.  Your temper was still up an hour and a quarter later?

          21   A.  I guess it was.

          22   Q.  Why the sock?

          23   A.  Could you please repeat?

          24   Q.  Why did it need a sock round the gun, what was the

          25       purpose in the sock?


                                            25
 

 

 


           1   A.  I got it in the sock and that's how I carried it.

           2   Q.  But you were very quick to notice there were no

           3       fingerprints of yours on the gun?

           4   A.  You said that I had -- my fingerprints was on the gun

           5       and I was stating a fact that it wasn't.  I had two

           6       trials and it was stated in both of them that my

           7       fingerprints was not on the gun.

           8   Q.  So despite the fact you held the gun for quite some

           9       period of time and had actually used it against Peter O

          10       and then taken the gun away from that scene, your

          11       fingerprints were still not on it?

          12   A.  Correct.

          13   Q.  You were asked about, in your trial, how long you'd

          14       known the person who gave you the gun and you refused to

          15       say; is that still the position?

          16   A.  Yes, it is.

          17   Q.  You were asked at your trial how well you knew that

          18       person and you refused to say; is that still the

          19       position?

          20   A.  Yes, it is.

          21   Q.  After you had assaulted Peter O with the gun, you went,

          22       did you not, to Burchell Road?

          23   A.  I went home -- I went back to Nevill Road first.  I was

          24       at Nevill Road for at least four or five hours before

          25       I went to Burchell Road.


                                            26
 

 

 


           1   Q.  But you ended up at Burchell Road that evening, didn't

           2       you, on 29 July?

           3   A.  About -- late that night I did, yes.

           4   Q.  Right.  Then between 29 July and 4 August, it seems as

           5       if no one washed the gun or the sock.

           6   A.  I wouldn't know.  As I say, I used it on the 29th,

           7       I returned it to the person I got it from.

           8   Q.  Actually, what you said, if we look, please, at

           9       CHF4389 -- let's look at what you said at letter F:

          10           "Question: Did you decide to do something?"

          11           I think this is your own counsel asking you

          12       questions:

          13           "Answer: Yes I did.

          14           "Question: What did you decide to do?

          15           "Answer: I decided to call someone to retrieve a gun

          16       from them."

          17           That was the word you used, wasn't it?  That you

          18       went to retrieve a gun?

          19   A.  Correct.

          20   Q.  When you took that gun, on 29 July, had you retrieved it

          21       from somebody?

          22   A.  Yes, I did.

          23   Q.  So it had originally been in your possession, had it?

          24   A.  Huh?  "Retrieve" means take.  I went to someone and took

          25       a gun from them.  I never had it in my possession


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       originally.

           2   Q.  I see, all right.  So that's your understanding of the

           3       word retrieve?

           4   A.  That's my perception of the word, yes.

           5   Q.  All right.  That gun you did not give to the police or

           6       to anyone else in authority, did you?

           7   A.  No, I didn't.

           8   Q.  Between 29 July and 4 August, you were not able to say

           9       in advance where you might be, were you?  Let me just

          10       explain that a little more: you were not working, were

          11       you?

          12   A.  No, I wasn't.

          13   Q.  Again, I don't want to embarrass you but I think you

          14       said in interview that you were very keen on women and

          15       women were very keen on you --

          16   A.  Correct.

          17   Q.  -- and that on some occasions you were sleeping with up

          18       to four women a day.

          19   A.  Occasionally.

          20   Q.  Yes.  So the point is: you didn't know where you were

          21       going to be at any particular time on any particular

          22       day, did you?

          23   A.  Not specifically, no.

          24   Q.  In fact, when you were asked by Mr Underwood about the

          25       address in Burchell Road and how often you went round


                                            28
 

 

 


           1       there, you said:

           2           "I went round to her whenever it suited me."

           3           That's the position, isn't it?

           4   A.  Basically, yes.

           5   Q.  Yes.  In your defence statement, page 18223, after

           6       29 July, you said:

           7           "The defendant suffered the injuries seen by the

           8       witness ..."

           9           Then there's a blank:

          10           "On the same day the defendant returned the gun

          11       whence it came."

          12   A.  Correct.

          13   Q.  Is that true, that you returned the gun to where it came

          14       from?

          15   A.  Not to where, but to the person who I got it from.

          16   Q.  What does that mean?

          17   A.  Pardon?

          18   Q.  What does that mean?

          19   A.  I gave it back to the person who I'd retrieved it from.

          20   Q.  Originally you said you went to his address and returned

          21       it to him, didn't you?  Let's cut to the chase, shall

          22       we?

          23   A.  I remember returning it.

          24   Q.  Yes.  Did you not originally say that you had returned

          25       it to him but then when you saw the phone records --


                                            29
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- you changed it that he, or whoever it was, came to

           3       collect it?

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  No?

           6   A.  I still stick to the fact that the -- the fact that

           7       I gave it back to the person that I got it from.  It was

           8       misconstrued that when I said I gave it back --

           9   Q.  I see.

          10   A.  -- that I had gone to the location where I'd got it

          11       from.  I didn't go back to the location where I got it

          12       from.  I went to my address in Stoke Newington and the

          13       person came and retrieved it from me.

          14   Q.  All right.  Can we look at the contact that you had,

          15       please, with Mark Duggan?  Your phone number, which ends

          16       in 567 at that time, you had had when you came out of

          17       prison in April 2011?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  There was no phone contact between you and Mark Duggan

          20       between April 2011 and then it started on 19 July, did

          21       it not?

          22   A.  I've got more than one phone so that was just off that

          23       SIM card that you got that contact between me and Mark.

          24       The contact made via BBM did not show up on there so

          25       I had contact with him other than that.


                                            30
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I see.  In any event, you called him on 19 July on the

           2       567 phone, whether you used other phones as well, yes?

           3   A.  Yes, if the record shows that.

           4   Q.  Well, the records do and we went through it and I'm

           5       trying to do it a little bit faster than looking at the

           6       records.

           7           29 July, you were in possession of the gun in the

           8       sock, as you've told us.  You end up at Desire --

           9   A.  Correct.

          10   Q.  -- Cox's address in the evening.  On 31 July, Mark

          11       Duggan contacted you.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  1 August, there are five calls from Mark Duggan to you;

          14       what were they about?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  What were they about?

          17   A.  That was two years ago, I can't remember.

          18   Q.  What, you've no idea what they were about?

          19   A.  Like I said, that was two years ago.  I cannot remember

          20       what me and him was talking about.

          21   Q.  On 2 August there was a text and two calls between you

          22       and Mark Duggan; what was that about?

          23   A.  I couldn't help you.

          24   Q.  3 August, you called him for 3 minutes and 22 seconds.

          25       On this occasion, you are at the cell site of Slades


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       Tower, which we know -- because we've heard from the

           2       evidence -- is Burchell Road area.

           3   A.  Okay.

           4   Q.  So on 3 August you were at Burchell Road, were you?

           5   A.  I'm there -- I'm at Burchell Road quite often at

           6       different times so --

           7   Q.  So what was this conversation about for 3 minutes and

           8       22 seconds on 3 August?

           9   A.  Could you remember what a phone call you had two years

          10       ago for three minutes was about?

          11   Q.  I don't have as many calls as you, so probably best not

          12       to ask me, but I'm asking you.

          13   A.  Exactly.  Like you said, I make a lot of phone calls so

          14       I cannot remember.

          15   Q.  The difference is that this is 3 August and this is the

          16       day before you were alleged to have passed the gun to

          17       Mark Duggan.  So you had good cause to remember what

          18       happened.

          19   A.  Okay.  You say that but I don't even remember where

          20       I woke up on 4 August.

          21   Q.  All right.  Mark Duggan was not aware of the Lagoon

          22       salon incident; is that right?

          23   A.  I don't know, I couldn't tell you if he was or if he

          24       wasn't.

          25   Q.  Do you want to look at 4455.  (Pause)


                                            32
 

 

 


           1           If we look at letter C -- I don't know if the jury

           2       can see that -- it says:

           3           "What was the conversation for 3 minutes and

           4       22 seconds about on the 3rd, please?

           5           "Answer: Couldn't tell you."

           6           It's put:

           7           "This is getting close, if I may say so, to the

           8       crucial day, the 4th.

           9           "Answer: Yes.

          10           "Question: What were you in conversation with Mark

          11       Duggan about?

          12           "Answer: I cannot remember.

          13           "Question: Well, was it about the gun?

          14           "Answer: I've answered your question already.

          15           "Question: Did you speak to about the gun incident

          16       at the Lagoon salon?

          17           "Answer: No, I didn't.

          18           "Question: Did he know you had a gun?

          19           "Answer: I didn't have a gun.

          20           "Question: Did he know you had a gun and were using

          21       it on 29 July?

          22           "Answer: Not that I'm aware of."

          23           So he was not aware --

          24   A.  I just told you the same thing.

          25   Q.  All right.  So he was not aware, as far as you knew, or


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       hadn't been told by you, correct?

           2   A.  No.

           3   Q.  Could we look, please, at the call data that we have

           4       which the jury does have a copy of, on C11.  I'll just

           5       wait for you to find that and for somebody to show you

           6       the page.

           7           Just before we look at it, whilst it's being found,

           8       could I ask you this: the box, please, had you given

           9       a box to Mark Duggan?

          10   A.  Weeks on top of weeks in July.

          11   Q.  I cannot hear you, I do beg your pardon.  Sorry?

          12   A.  In July, I had given a box to a mutual friend and Mark.

          13   Q.  In July you'd given him a box?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  What was that all about, why had you given him a box?

          16   A.  Because they asked me for a bag and I didn't have a bag,

          17       and I gave him the box instead.

          18   Q.  You gave him an empty box, did you, in July?

          19   A.  Yes.  They asked for a bag, I didn't have one so I gave

          20       a box instead.

          21   Q.  Where was that: at Burchell Road?

          22   A.  At football.

          23   Q.  Football.  So you gave him a box at football that had

          24       your fingerprints on and also had Desire Cox's

          25       fingerprints on, yes?


                                            34
 

 

 


           1   A.  It seems so, yes.

           2   Q.  What were you doing at football with a box that had

           3       girls' boots in it, or at one time had girls' boots in,

           4       it from River Island?

           5   A.  I kept some football stuff in there.

           6   Q.  Football stuff?  What sort of football stuff did you

           7       keep in a box?

           8   A.  Vest, shorts and a t-shirt.

           9   Q.  I see, and a towel?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Something to change into after the game?

          12   A.  I just told you, vest and shorts.

          13   Q.  I see.  You put all of that in a box and take it in

          14       a box to a football game, do you?

          15   A.  I drive a car, I've got plenty -- when I got arrested

          16       I'm sure there were two or three shoe boxes in my car

          17       with football boots or with shirts and t-shirts or stuff

          18       in them, so it's not out of the ordinary for me to have

          19       stuff like that.

          20   Q.  You put your kit in a box when you take it to football,

          21       do you?

          22   A.  Yes, more often than not.

          23   Q.  There was tissue paper in the bottom of it as well; do

          24       you keep that there?

          25   A.  I don't remember.


                                            35
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Some heel tips as well, I think.

           2   A.  (Shrugs) From it's left my possession I cannot tell you

           3       what's in it.

           4   Q.  Anyway, you gave that to him in July, yes?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Could we just look, please, at this C11.  You need not

           7       bother with the first page, which has the last three

           8       numbers 773; look at 774.  We can see -- (Pause)

           9           If we look, we can see this is, on the left-hand

          10       side -- I'll just give you a moment to look at it

          11       because you probably haven't looked at this for a while,

          12       have you?  But this was at your trial so you have seen

          13       it before.

          14   A.  Yes, I have I've seen it before.

          15   Q.  4 August, we can see is call number 117, and that's from

          16       you at 16.57 -- so just before 5 o'clock -- for 49

          17       seconds to Mr Duggan, yes?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  What were you calling him about on 4 August just before

          20       5 o'clock?

          21   A.  If memory serves right, I missed a phone call from him

          22       and I called him back.

          23   Q.  What was the conversation then for 49 seconds?

          24   A.  Can't remember word for word but he wanted me to follow

          25       him somewhere.


                                            36
 

 

 


           1   Q.  He wanted you to follow him somewhere; what do you mean

           2       he wanted you to follow him somewhere?

           3   A.  He wanted me to follow him somewhere.

           4   Q.  Follow him where, for what purpose?

           5   A.  To Tottenham to meet one of his friends.

           6   Q.  Could you sit back, I'm sorry, because I cannot see your

           7       mouth, the words are a little bit blurred.  Thank you

           8       very much.  Sorry.

           9           To follow you to Tottenham -- him to Tottenham for

          10       what?

          11   A.  Meet one of his friends.

          12   Q.  For what purpose?

          13   A.  One of his friends had a crop of weed and he thought

          14       I would be interested in it.

          15   Q.  He had what, a crop of weed or a bit of weed?  I didn't

          16       hear what you said?  I beg your pardon.

          17   A.  He had a bit of weed.

          18   Q.  He had a bit of weed and he thought you might be

          19       interested in it?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  But you had rather a lot of weed at your house, your

          22       address, when the police searched it.

          23   A.  No, I didn't.

          24   Q.  I see.

          25   A.  No, I didn't.


                                            37
 

 

 


           1   Q.  And scales; didn't you have that as well?

           2   A.  Yes, I did.

           3   Q.  And rather a large amount of cash.  That was all at your

           4       address in October, wasn't it, when you were arrested?

           5   A.  Yes, it was.

           6   Q.  Mark Duggan wanted you to go to Tottenham with him

           7       because he thought you might want to buy a little bit of

           8       weed?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  I think if you will forgive me just a little cynicism,

          11       you were quite able to buy your own drugs, weren't you,

          12       because you had only just come out of prison for drugs,

          13       hadn't you?

          14   A.  Pardon?

          15   Q.  You had only just come out of prison for drugs, hadn't

          16       you, in April?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  In any event, let's go back to these phone calls.

          19           So he wanted you to go to Tottenham with him and

          20       that's the phone call then, at 17.57, yes?  If we look

          21       then, there's a text --

          22   A.  I think so.

          23   Q.  At 122 there's a text on 4 August at 17.20.  That is

          24       from somebody whose number ends in 297.  I'm going to

          25       call her Vanessa, although we do have her surname and


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       it's in the transcript, but I will not mention her name.

           2       That's a text from her, isn't it?  She was someone you

           3       were going to give a lift to later on, weren't you?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  She was texting you, presumably asking when it was you

           6       were going to take her.

           7   A.  (Pause) Confirming with me that me and her were still

           8       going out, yes.

           9   Q.  I'm sorry.

          10   A.  I said confirming with me that I was still going

          11       wherever me and her had pre-arranged to go to, yes.

          12   Q.  We can see that between those times somebody had

          13       called -- it wasn't Mark Duggan but somebody on his

          14       behalf called -- the Hoxton Cars at 17.12 and asked for

          15       a cab to Vicarage Road, yes?

          16   A.  Okay.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Then we can see the minicab has started on its route and

          18       then at call 125 you call Vanessa for 55 seconds, yes,

          19       at 5.30?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  No doubt you were saying to her "I'm expecting somebody,

          22       I'll give you a call afterwards and I'll tell you what

          23       time I can come and collect you".

          24   A.  That's your opinion, but that wasn't the case.

          25   Q.  All right, we'll see.  Then we can turn over two pages,


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       please, at 776.  I'll wait for that to come up in front

           2       of you.

           3   A.  I've got it.

           4   Q.  Thank you.  The first call on that page, 131, 17.50,

           5       this is you calling Mr Duggan.  The last time you had

           6       spoken to him --

           7   A.  Okay.

           8   Q.  -- was an hour ago and you were presumably asking him

           9       "Where are you, when are you going to get here, I've got

          10       to take Vanessa" -- she had to go to an audition, didn't

          11       she, or a rehearsal or something like that?  She had

          12       an audition, didn't she?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Yes.

          15   A.  Yes, at Pineapple Studios.

          16   Q.  At Pineapple Studios she had an audition, yes.

          17           So that's you phoning Mark Duggan for 41 seconds.

          18       At 17.55, call 132, he calls you back for 23 seconds; is

          19       he asking you for directions?

          20   A.  No.

          21   Q.  You see, we're going to hear from the taxi driver but

          22       I want your evidence from it: are you saying there was

          23       a discussion or no discussion about directions with you?

          24   A.  There was no directions -- there was no discussion about

          25       directions.


                                            40
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You see, the reason I ask you this is because the cab

           2       had been booked to Vicarage Road but you were at

           3       Burchell Road, weren't you?

           4   A.  So there was no need.  Vicarage Road is off Burchell

           5       Road.

           6   Q.  No, no, Burchell Road is off Vicarage Road, isn't it?

           7   A.  Or vice-versa, yes.

           8   Q.  Yes.  But the cab had been ordered to Vicarage Road --

           9   A.  Okay.

          10   Q.  -- and at the time you spoke to him, did you know Desire

          11       Cox's actual address or did you know that it was off

          12       Vicarage Road but you didn't know the exact name?

          13   A.  I have known her for six years, she hadn't lived

          14       anywhere else apart from that address so I'd've known

          15       that address by heart.  If you want I can give it to you

          16       now.

          17   Q.  I'm sure you can now, because you've heard very little

          18       but Burchell Road in the last couple of years.

          19           But in any event, there's that 23 second phone call

          20       with Mark Duggan; what was that about?

          21   A.  I don't remember specifically what it was about.

          22   Q.  Well, you call him at 17.50, he is calling you back at

          23       17.55; what's it all about?

          24   A.  Like I've said in both my trials, Mark called me because

          25       he wanted me to follow him to Tottenham and I couldn't.


                                            41
 

 

 


           1       I needed to go somewhere.  I didn't meet him on that day

           2       and that's all I could add.  I can't tell you exactly word

           3       for word what was said in my phone conversations with

           4       him.

           5   Q.  I don't want word for word, obviously, but just the gist

           6       of it will do.

           7   A.  I've already given you the gist of it three or four

           8       occasions and you keep giving me your own opinions on

           9       what our phone calls was about.

          10   Q.  What's the gist of this conversation then?  I'm sorry,

          11       I'm being a bit slow.  You've had 41 seconds before, you

          12       then have another one for 23 seconds, five minutes

          13       later; what were they all about?

          14   A.  Mark asking me to follow him to Tottenham.

          15   Q.  I see, he kept saying "Will you follow me to Tottenham?"

          16       What were you saying?

          17   A.  That I had to go somewhere.

          18   Q.  You had to go somewhere.  So he knew that you weren't

          19       going to actually meet him at all?

          20   A.  I guess so.  That's your opinion, I can't --

          21   Q.  I'm asking you.

          22   A.  I cannot insinuate or --

          23   Q.  It's not my opinion, I'm asking you about the evidence.

          24       I'm suggesting you met him on that day, let me make that

          25       absolutely clear, but what I'm asking you is: on your


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       version of events, what is it that you say is the

           2       position?  You were saying, were you, "I'm not going to

           3       meet you", is that what you were saying?

           4   A.  The position --

           5   Q.  "I'm not going to meet you", is that what you were

           6       saying?

           7   A.  The position that I say is that I had somewhere to go.

           8   Q.  Yes.  So did you tell him that?  That's what I'm asking.

           9       Did you say to him "You can come whenever you want,

          10       Mark, but I'm not coming out to see you"?

          11   A.  As far as I was aware, Mark was making his way to

          12       Tottenham.

          13   Q.  Yes.  You had spoken to him --

          14   A.  I had somewhere else to go.

          15   Q.  You had spoken to him at 5.50.

          16   A.  Yes, I did speak to him.  I spoke to him on a few

          17       occasions on that day.

          18   Q.  You had spoken to him at 5.55.  So I'm asking you, just

          19       help us, please, with what you were saying to him?  Were

          20       you saying to him "Look, I'm not seeing you, you just go

          21       away"?

          22   A.  You've taken my statements from my trials from

          23       previous -- like, if you want a more precise version of

          24       what I said to him, then I suggest you look on what

          25       I said to him by reading that -- the script because


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       I can't help you now.  It's been a long time.

           2   Q.  I see.  I do not think you said anything more precise

           3       before but, anyway, that's what I'm asking you about,

           4       but if I cannot go any further, I won't.

           5           Then we can see at 17.56 the minicab comes to

           6       a standstill, or effectively a standstill, then Mark

           7       Duggan calls you at 17.56.45 for ten seconds.  What was

           8       the ten-second call about?  Was it --

           9   A.  Asking me to follow him to Tottenham.

          10   Q.  What, for ten seconds?  That must have been is a very

          11       quick call.  (Pause)

          12           Just long enough to say --

          13   A.  We had how many --

          14   Q.  Just long enough for him to say, "I'm here".

          15   A.  That's a quick phone call too, is it not?

          16   Q.  Exactly.  This was only ten seconds.

          17   A.  It doesn't take me ten seconds to say that I'm going

          18       somewhere.

          19   Q.  I see.  So you were repeating the same thing you had

          20       told him at 17.50 and at 17.55, yes?

          21   A.  Yes.  I had somewhere to be.

          22   Q.  Yes.  Then, between 17.56.45 and 18.00.54 -- let's not

          23       worry about the 54 for the moment -- there is no contact

          24       made by you or by Mr Duggan.  No call was made in that

          25       four minutes by either of you?


                                            44
 

 

 


           1   A.  Wasn't there other (over?) four-minute --

           2   Q.  Pardon?

           3   A.  Wasn't there other (over?) four-minute durations that

           4       there were (?) some phone calls between me or him.

           5   Q.  No, the point I am making is that at precisely the same

           6       time, neither of you are making a call.

           7   A.  The point you're making is a point that is of

           8       convenience to yourself and to what point you're trying

           9       to state, and my point to you is there was plenty of

          10       other occasions for four minutes, where neither me nor

          11       Mark was on the phone.

          12   Q.  It's not convenient to me, it's convenient for the

          13       truth, isn't it?

          14   A.  If that is what you want to paint it as.  I'm telling

          15       you the facts of what I can tell you and what

          16       I experienced on that day and you keep on insinuating

          17       and painting a picture that you want to create.

          18   Q.  Well, it's not me, is it, Mr Hutchinson-Foster?  Anyway,

          19       let's carry on.

          20           Then we can see directly after that you make two

          21       texts -- you do two texts to a number 771; are you going

          22       to tell us who that is?

          23   A.  I don't remember who that is.

          24   Q.  Then at 18.01, leave out the seconds, you call Vanessa,

          25       don't you, for 55 seconds --


                                            45
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- and you say "I'm free and on my way", and you left

           3       that cell site area?

           4   A.  Conveniently -- conveniently, you say that, I'm on my

           5       way but I could have said that in three seconds,

           6       couldn't I, but my phone call with her must have been

           7       more than that.

           8   Q.  Obviously, I cannot tell you every word.  The thing is,

           9       you left straight afterwards, didn't you, because

          10       although it's not shown on this, the cell site then went

          11       to another area, didn't it?

          12   A.  Yes, I did.

          13   Q.  Yes.

          14   A.  I don't know exactly how long after that phone call

          15       I left but I made a phone call to Vanessa to tell her

          16       that I was going to be coming to see her.

          17   Q.  Well, you left immediately.

          18   A.  Which is the whole point of why I told Mark I couldn't

          19       follow him to Tottenham because I had somewhere to go.

          20   Q.  He had already gone on hadn't he because the vehicle was

          21       there for four minutes?

          22   A.  That's not -- I'm not in -- I am not in control of that.

          23   Q.  No, no, no.  In any event, you went outside, didn't you,

          24       and you gave Mark Duggan a box, on 4 August, didn't you?

          25   A.  No, I didn't.  No, I didn't.  When I went outside I went


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       into my car and drove to the Kingsland Estate.

           2   Q.  So if Mark Duggan picked an up a box on 4 August, he was

           3       picking up a box in exactly the same area where you

           4       were, yes?

           5   A.  The operative word there being "if".

           6   Q.  Yes.  If he picked up a box he picked it up in the same

           7       area as where you were and it's a box that you had

           8       already given him months earlier.

           9   A.  Like you said, if.  I never met Mark that day.

          10   Q.  If you're right, and if it were you giving it, you would

          11       be giving him the same box that you had already given

          12       him a month or so earlier?

          13   A.  Does that make any sense to you?

          14   Q.  No, it doesn't.  You have never given a box, as you told

          15       us, to Mark Duggan before, and Ms Cox had never given

          16       Mark Duggan a box before, had she?

          17   A.  I've given Mark a box before but not just on that day

          18       that you're questioning me about.

          19   Q.  Yes.  That's the only box -- you only ever gave him one

          20       box, didn't you?

          21   A.  To my knowledge, yes.

          22   Q.  Ms Cox never gave him a box, did she?

          23   A.  Not that I'm aware of.

          24   Q.  When you were arrested on 24 October 2011 -- I'm moving

          25       to another topic, I know that you usually take a break,


                                            47
 

 

 


           1       I'm content to carry on?

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's carry on and see how we get

           3       on.

           4   MR STERN:  Certainly.  You were arrested on 24 October by

           5       armed police officers, weren't you?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  What was said to you was, when you were arrested -- not

           8       by armed officers but by other officers --they said:

           9           "You've been linked by forensic evidence to

          10       a handgun that the police found in August and you are

          11       under arrest for possession of a firearm."

          12           Yes?

          13   A.  Correct.

          14   Q.  You said:

          15           "What gun?"

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  That was a lie, wasn't it, obviously?

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  To be fair to him --

          19   A.  Obviously: what do you mean?

          20   MR STERN:  You were cautioned and you chose to answer it.

          21       What you said was:

          22           "What gun?"

          23           You knew perfectly well the gun that was being

          24       spoken of, because you had used one on 29 July, hadn't

          25       you?


                                            48
 

 

 


           1   A.  I don't understand what you're trying to say.

           2   Q.  All right.  At the police station, you were put in

           3       a cell pending interview and you said this, didn't you:

           4           "If somebody hits me with something and I bleed on

           5       it, I get in trouble."

           6           Yes?

           7   A.  Correct.

           8   Q.  So what you were trying to say was that the forensic

           9       evidence has been found on the gun because you were hit

          10       by the gun by somebody else.

          11   A.  I didn't know what gun they were talking about.

          12   Q.  Exactly, you didn't.  You did not know what gun you were

          13       talking about.

          14   A.  Exactly.

          15   Q.  But the point is --

          16   A.  No, I didn't.

          17   Q.  The point is that you were saying:

          18           "If somebody hits me with something and I bleed on

          19       it, I get in trouble."

          20           So you were referring to a gun having been used to

          21       hit you, which led to your blood being on it, or DNA on

          22       it, and that was the reason why your DNA or forensic

          23       evidence might be associated with the gun, wasn't it?

          24   A.  That was my assumption at the time, yes.

          25   Q.  That's what you said.  Could we just look, please, at


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       CHF2670.  (Pause)

           2           I think I am being asked to wait a minute,

           3       obviously.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Back onto me for a while.

           5       Mr Hutchinson-Foster, before you look at that, it looks

           6       as though there are still a number of questions for you

           7       and I think it's better, in the circumstances, for us

           8       all to have a short break.  It will finish this morning,

           9       the questions that you're given, I would hope.  But

          10       certainly there's more than half an hour or so of

          11       questioning left.  So I think we'll have a break at this

          12       point.

          13           So we'll turn off the cameras so you cannot see us,

          14       and we'll continue the link in ten minutes or quarter of

          15       an hour's time.  Thank you very much.

          16           Could we turn off the cameras, please?

          17           All right, members of the jury, if you would like to

          18       leave us for ten minutes?  Thank you very much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                            50
 

 


          11   (11.47 am)

          12                         (A short break)

          13   (12.02 pm)

          16                  (In the presence of the jury)

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will have the screen on in court,

          18       please.  Thank you very much, Mr Hutchinson-Foster, for

          19       allowing us that break.  We are now back in court and

          20       we're going to continue and complete, hopefully this

          21       morning, the questions that we have for you.  You are

          22       still under the affirmation that you took earlier to

          23       give answers that are truthful to the best of your

          24       belief and knowledge, and Mr Stern will ask you some

          25       more questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                            53
 

 

 


           1   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.  Mr Hutchinson-Foster, we

           2       were about to look at the interview that you had with

           3       the police on 24 October 2011 when you were arrested.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  I'm going to just look at a few pages with you.

           6       Page 2670, please, that's CHF; do you have it there?

           7   A.  Yes, I do.

           8   Q.  Thank you very much.  I don't know if the jury can

           9       follow this?  No.  You were asked for your explanation,

          10       we can see, as to what it may be connected with, because

          11       as you've told us, all you knew at the time was that

          12       they were suggesting that there was some forensic

          13       evidence in relation to a gun; yes?

          14   A.  Something like that, yes.

          15   Q.  I've read it out, I'm just paraphrasing it.  You say:

          16           "No, no I don't really, I don't know exactly why I'm

          17       here but I'm just saying I've been hit in the head with

          18       a gun because of some altercation with somebody and

          19       that's the only way that I can think -- I haven't

          20       touched anything, so that's the only way I can think of

          21       my DNA or anything like that to be anywhere near a gun,

          22       because I haven't touched any."

          23           Then, if we go, please, to page 2671.  Again, if

          24       I can paraphrase it, you were saying:

          25           "I don't know where you found forensic evidence,


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       like, or who you find it.  I just know that ..."

           2           You've been out of prison and you are not that

           3       popular with a number of people, I think is what you

           4       were saying; is that a fair summary of that page?

           5   A.  Basically, yes.

           6   Q.  All right.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Could we go to 2678, please?  This is where you start to

           9       give an explanation as to how it is that your DNA may be

          10       on a gun.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  You say you were in a particular area, in Holly Street,

          13       and it was just before 29 July, that is to say before

          14       the date that you assaulted Peter O, yes?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  You were getting punched by a group of people, "butted",

          17       you said, and you thought:

          18           "I thought I was going to get shot just like today,

          19       all those guns butting in my face."

          20           You were talking about the armed officers arresting

          21       you.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  "Question: Did you see anyone with a gun?

          24           "Answer: I just heard them say like 'Burn him'.

          25       Like, when I hear that, I'm not looking at anybody, I'm


                                            55
 

 

 


           1       just -- I just curled up and hoped for the best and what

           2       I did is I ended up running off.

           3           "Question: Did you see any of the people that had

           4       a gun?

           5           "Answer: Not personally, directly.  I do not want to

           6       say yes or no because I could have been getting hit with

           7       a knife, for all I know.  But I know -- I know the

           8       difference between getting hit with a knife and

           9       something that feels so heavy, feels like your head

          10       wanting to split and I had a headache for two weeks ..."

          11           Then you went to hospital and then you were asked

          12       about being on licence on that occasion, yes, licence

          13       for prison?

          14   A.  Mm.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Then over the page at 2679, right at the bottom of the

          16       page, you were asked:

          17           "Do you know who they were, the people that attacked

          18       you that day?  Do you know who any of them were?

          19       Obviously you do, go on.

          20           "Answer: Partially, yes.  I did, but at the same

          21       time, like I said, a lot of stuff has happened since

          22       then and they say karma is a bitch.

          23           "Question: What do you mean by that?

          24           "Answer: They say you live by the gun, you die by

          25       the bullet.  So you know, like, from what I've heard, if


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       it was the person who did whatever they -- like they did

           2       whatever to me and he's not living anymore and I'm

           3       judging and I'm thinking -- no thinking June, July,

           4       August, September -- no, it's August, I don't want it,

           5       like -- I don't want -- to get him, I don't really want

           6       to say too much, isn't it, because, like I said, I know

           7       if I say something now and, like, the wrong set of

           8       people hear about it, like, I'm going -- I would rather

           9       be in prison than be out here with people wanting to do

          10       me something, because I said something to -- you know."

          11           Then at page 2681, two thirds of the way down, you

          12       said:

          13           "I recognised there's one -- there's two people

          14       I recognise.  One I was surprised because I didn't think

          15       they would do that to me, considering that I played

          16       football with them before, you know.  But the others

          17       I recognised you know but I don't know them like that.

          18       One of them I did.

          19           "Question: Were they people that were local there,

          20       like people from the Holly Street Estate?

          21           "Answer: No, like, if you like, those -- I had only

          22       been out of prison a couple of months then, so -- I was

          23       surprised.  I was, like, I'm not used to seeing the

          24       person who I saw."

          25           You say that you are not used to seeing that person


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       in the area and you say:

           2           "I only know one of them by name."

           3           Then we go to page 2685.  You say:

           4           "How could I have a gun that you find?  You find the

           5       gun.  It's got my DNA on it.  I don't have anything, I

           6       don't own one, like, all I want to do is --

           7           "Question: But you said you've been hit over the

           8       head with a gun?

           9           "Answer: Yeah.

          10           "Question: Or you think you've been hit over the

          11       head with a gun?

          12           "Answer: I'm quite certain I was.

          13           "Question: Why don't you tell us who you think did

          14       it because that would clear it up?

          15           "Answer: If I tell you who did it, yeah, a lot of

          16       things have happened because of this, you know.  You

          17       know, little -- his name's Mark.

          18           "Question: Go on.

          19           "Answer: His name's Mark.

          20           "Question: Mark what?

          21           "Answer: Mark, the one that died in the police

          22       shooting.

          23           "Question: Just to be clear, obviously, that is

          24       Mark Duggan, was it, that was shot by the police?  Is

          25       that the Mark you're talking about?


                                            58
 

 

 


           1           "Answer: Yes."

           2           Over the page you say you weren't friends and that,

           3       effectively, that he had hit you with a gun, and this

           4       assault that you said had happened on the street --

           5       separate from the one on 29 July when you had hit

           6       Peter O -- you said there was an entirely different

           7       incident where Mark Duggan had assaulted you, yes?

           8   A.  You see that in there; I said Mark assaulted me?

           9   Q.  Sorry, you're speaking a little too close to the mic.

          10       I didn't hear what you said.

          11   A.  Where does it say in here that I said Mark assaulted me?

          12   Q.  You said the man who hit you with the gun, the person

          13       who did it was Mark?

          14   A.  I said he was there when I got hit.  Did I say --

          15       I didn't say Mark hit me with a gun.

          16   Q.  Well, if you look at page 2685, you're asked about:

          17           "How could I have a gun that you find?"

          18           Then you said:

          19           "You find a gun that's got my DNA.  I don't have

          20       anything, I don't own one.

          21           "Question: But you said you had been hit over the

          22       head with a gun.

          23           "Answer: Yeah.

          24           "Question: Or you think you've been hit over the

          25       head" --


                                            59
 

 

 


           1           Let me finish.

           2   A.  Exactly so -- once again, I feel like I'm being attacked

           3       and being put on trial again.  Like, I'm not on trial

           4       here, innit.  I'm trying my best to be helpful and

           5       you've been using whatever bit of evidence that you want

           6       to call it to push through your point to support what

           7       your impression of all of this is.

           8   Q.  Well, I'm --

           9   A.  Like, all my interview -- in my cross-examination in

          10       both my trials, I've said twice that Mark stopped me

          11       from getting beaten up and that I got assaulted.  In my

          12       interview I admitted that I told lies, not being friends

          13       with Mark or that I even knew Mark.  So you going back

          14       and using things that I've said openly in two trials

          15       that, yes, I lied that I didn't know Mark and that Mark

          16       was there when I got assaulted and he stopped it, why

          17       are you now then saying that I turned around and said he

          18       assaulted me?

          19   Q.  We are dealing in stages --

          20   A.  You've got my transcript -- you've got a transcript that

          21       you read stuff from, that you've already accused me of

          22       saying one thing or another, but you are not using the

          23       transcript now where it states that Mark stopped me from

          24       getting hurt.  You're using whatever piece of

          25       information you want to use to make it -- or to


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       assassinate my character once again.

           2   Q.  Let me just explain --

           3   A.  That is what you are doing.

           4   Q.  Just listen a minute, please.

           5   A.  That is what you're doing and, as far as I'm concerned,

           6       like, unless you're going to ask me something that

           7       directly has to do with 4 August I'm not going to answer

           8       any more questions.

           9   Q.  That's your prerogative, subject to the judge's ruling.

          10       But I'm going to carry on asking you a few more

          11       questions about this because the point is that, on

          12       24 October, you were saying -- and this is directly

          13       relevant to 4 August -- you were saying that Mark Duggan

          14       was the person who had assaulted -- let me finish

          15       please --

          16   A.  Mark Duggan was present at the time of my assault:

          17       present.

          18   Q.  You were saying that because you knew then that the

          19       firearm that you had given him may have his DNA on it.

          20   A.  I did not give Mark a firearm.

          21   Q.  That is why, on 24 October, you mentioned his name and

          22       said that he may have been one of the people who struck

          23       you, let's put it in that way then.

          24   A.  I am -- like I said, yeah, I have once again told you,

          25       from -- you are taking bits of what -- of my interview


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       out to support whatever cause it is that you're going

           2       down --

           3   Q.  By the time you came to trial --

           4   A.  -- and I'm not going to --

           5   Q.  By the time you came to trial, you knew that there was

           6       no evidence of any DNA of Mark Duggan on the gun and

           7       sock, didn't you?

           8   A.  (Shakes head) I don't understand what you're trying to

           9       say.

          10   Q.  Well, you then changed it, didn't you, because in your

          11       trial you said:

          12           "No, Mark Duggan protected me."

          13   A.  I got questioned on what happened and I said Mark

          14       stopped me from getting hurt.

          15   Q.  Yes.

          16   A.  In my interview I said I didn't know Mark.

          17   Q.  Sorry?  You said --

          18   A.  In my interview I said I didn't know Mark and me and

          19       Mark wasn't friends.

          20   Q.  You said you weren't friends but you obviously knew him.

          21       You said -- you gave his name.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll move on.

          23   MR STERN:  I'll move on.

          24           On 5 August, you dispensed with your phone didn't

          25       you, you got rid of your phone.


                                            62
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I didn't.

           2   Q.  The BlackBerry that you had, you gave it back to the

           3       person who had lent it to you originally, didn't you, or

           4       who had been holding it for you?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  You stopped using the 567 number, didn't you?

           7   A.  I used it occasionally, not -- I never stopped using it

           8       all together.

           9   Q.  Well, you didn't get rid of the SIM card, did you, you

          10       kept that in your home address and that was found by the

          11       police, wasn't it?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  You started using a different number, the number of

          14       which escapes me for the moment, but something like

          15       909 -- 099, Mr Keith always ahead of me -- 099, yes?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Because you knew that that would, again, allow the

          18       police to draw in from that phone contact.

          19   A.  (Pause) If that was the case why would I keep the SIM

          20       card?

          21   Q.  I am not going to answer your questions.  I've put the

          22       point to you.

          23   A.  And I answered your point.

          24   Q.  Well, I suggest you haven't answered, you have just come

          25       back with a question, but anyway.


                                            63
 

 

 


           1           Can I just deal with these few points -- and there

           2       are just a few points left -- in your interview, you

           3       made no reference to going to Desire Cox on 4 August,

           4       did you?

           5   A.  No, I didn't.

           6   Q.  You said, in your interview, that you had not spoken to

           7       Mark Duggan since the assault on you, didn't you?

           8   A.  I think so, yes.  I think I -- yes.

           9   Q.  You made no reference to any football kit in a box, did

          10       you?

          11   A.  I never got asked about it.

          12   Q.  I see.  You refused, initially -- bearing in mind what

          13       you said when Mr Underwood asked you questions -- to

          14       stand or to participate in an identification procedure

          15       didn't you, initially, in October?

          16   A.  At first, yes, at first.

          17   Q.  So it wasn't until November that you agreed to it.

          18   A.  Two weeks later.

          19   Q.  Well, whatever.  It was in November, wasn't it?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Then you were interviewed, weren't you, again?

          22   A.  Yes, I was.

          23   Q.  You refused to answer any one of the questions.

          24   A.  Correct.

          25   Q.  Having been cautioned -- I repeat that and I am quite


                                            64
 

 

 


           1       happy to -- it was your right not to answer questions,

           2       but you knew that it could be held against you in

           3       a trial, didn't you?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Obviously you made no reference to any assault or

           6       possessing a gun on 29 July, did you?

           7   A.  No, I didn't.

           8   Q.  It was only when the CCTV evidence came to light, and

           9       the forensic evidence -- that is to say the blood on the

          10       gun and the sock -- that you eventually pleaded guilty

          11       to that assault, didn't you?

          12   A.  I never got charged with that assault either, so why was

          13       I going to plead guilty so something I wasn't charged

          14       with?

          15   Q.  Initially you pleaded not guilty, didn't you, when it

          16       came to the court and then you pleaded guilty later on,

          17       right -- just before the trial, didn't you?

          18   A.  Because I knew what I was being charged with.  There was

          19       a complication with the charge, so I couldn't plead

          20       guilty to something I didn't do.

          21   Q.  Let me make it absolutely clear what I'm suggesting to

          22       you, so there is no doubt about it.  I'm suggesting that

          23       in that four minutes between 1756 and 1800 hours you

          24       transferred a gun to Mark Duggan, the gun that was found

          25       on Ferry Lane.  That's precisely the matter you were


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       convicted of, isn't it?

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There's two very big questions

           3       there.  Try the first one.

           4   MR STERN:  The first one: I'm suggesting to you that that's

           5       the position.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Hutchinson-Foster, let me just

           7       ask the question so it comes from me, all right.  You've

           8       been asked lots of questions and the final question --

           9       we've asked it already but let me ask it -- on 4 August,

          10       shortly after 6.00 pm, did you transfer a gun in a box,

          11       giving it to Mark Duggan?

          12   A.  No, I didn't.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  There will be

          14       some more questions, but not many, from another

          15       barrister, Mr Keith.

          16                      Questions by MR KEITH

          17   MR KEITH:  Mr Hutchinson-Foster, you were asked earlier

          18       today about whether or not you were appealing the

          19       conviction recorded against you in January of this year,

          20       when the jury at the Old Bailey concluded that you had

          21       indeed possessed a firearm and passed it to Mark Duggan.

          22       I want to ask you about whether or not you will be

          23       appealing that decision.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  You received a very long sentence, did you not?


                                            66
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  You had given evidence in your own defence --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- you had called evidence, you had had a lengthy trial?

           5   A.  Twice.

           6   Q.  So if you did not pass a gun to Mark Duggan, why have

           7       you not appealed or at least tried to appeal?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm going to interrupt that

           9       question.  You don't need to answer that question if

          10       it's something to do with legal advice that's gone

          11       between yourself and your own lawyers.

          12   MR KEITH:  Sir, I've asked the question because he gave

          13       an answer earlier to Mr Underwood, in which he did not

          14       rely upon anything his lawyers said; he said it was to

          15       do with these proceedings.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Ask him directly, picking it up from

          17       there, and that will stop me interrupting.

          18   MR KEITH:  What is it about these proceedings,

          19       Mr Hutchinson-Foster, that has prevented you from

          20       appealing?

          21   A.  I'm not a legal aid or barrister, so I don't know how to

          22       explain it.  I just know that's what I've been told.

          23   Q.  You are saying to this jury, are you, that you were told

          24       that you couldn't appeal whilst this Inquest was going

          25       on?


                                            67
 

 

 


           1   A.  I've been waiting -- I've been told that I couldn't

           2       appeal while the Inquest was going on.

           3   Q.  That's what you've been told, is it?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Well, given that you had received such a lengthy

           6       sentence after a trial that you must believe was unfair

           7       or reached the wrong decision, would you not have wanted

           8       to know a little bit more about why this Inquest was

           9       stopping you from appealing; did you ask?

          10   A.  I've been waiting for a legal briefing for the last few

          11       months and my solicitors have been unable to reach me

          12       due to prison rules.  I don't know what they're bound

          13       by, I've been waiting.

          14   Q.  Have you asked anybody why it is that you understand

          15       that this Inquest is in some way preventing you from

          16       appealing?

          17   A.  I do not understand it and I don't know -- I can't

          18       answer that question because I don't know.  I don't know

          19       the full facts.

          20   Q.  You pleaded guilty in June of last year to assaulting

          21       Peter O with a gun on 29 July 2011, correct?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  As you've agreed, when you were originally arrested in

          24       October 2011, you denied having a gun on 29 July and you

          25       gave a story, that we've heard about, to the effect that


                                            68
 

 

 


           1       you'd been assaulted by a group of men, correct?

           2   A.  I did not -- how could I deny something that I wasn't --

           3       that wasn't brought to me?

           4   Q.  You told the police, when you were arrested, that

           5       a group of men had assaulted you, and in the course of

           6       the assault, you had been hit by a gun; is that not

           7       right?

           8   A.  Yes, and I did not give -- I did not give a specific

           9       date because I did not -- I was not clear on when the

          10       date was.  I wasn't clear on when the date was that

          11       I assaulted Peter O or when I got assaulted.

          12   Q.  In your trial, at Snaresbrook Crown Court, and again at

          13       the Old Bailey, you accepted that that first account had

          14       been a lie, didn't you?

          15   A.  What account?

          16   Q.  The account that you initially gave, that on 29 July,

          17       far from assaulting Peter O, you had in fact, a little

          18       while earlier, been assaulted by a group of men who had

          19       hit you with a gun.  That was a lie, wasn't it?

          20   A.  I never -- I never said that was a lie.

          21   Q.  Could you look, please, at CHF2405, 2406.  2405 is part

          22       of the transcript of the first trial.  (Pause)

          23           CHF2405, the bottom quarter of the page, having

          24       agreed that you had handled a weapon on 29 July, you

          25       were asked about what you said to the police:


                                            69
 

 

 


           1           "Question: Did you want to tell the police you had

           2       actually had a gun on 29 July?

           3           "Answer: No, I didn't.

           4           "Question: Why not?

           5           "Answer: Just to distance myself from the whole

           6       situation."

           7           These are your words Mr Hutchinson-Foster.  Over the

           8       page, 2406:

           9           "Question: Did you take a decision about what you

          10       were going to say?

          11           "Answer: Yes.

          12           "Question: What did you decide you were going to do?

          13           "Answer: I was going to lie to distance myself from

          14       the incident.

          15           "Question: You decided to lie?

          16           "Answer: Yes, I did."

          17           So, you agreed then, when you were giving evidence,

          18       that you had in fact lied when you gave that first

          19       account.  But --

          20   A.  Because I didn't -- I told you I wasn't aware of the

          21       dates, I don't know what dates was what.

          22   Q.  We have your words there, Mr Hutchinson-Foster, agreeing

          23       at your own trial that you'd lied.

          24   A.  Yes, but I said that to the previous -- to the previous

          25       barrister, that I lied in my interview.  I said that


                                            70
 

 

 


           1       just now.

           2   Q.  You said to the jury at Snaresbrook that you'd lied.

           3       You agreed that you lied.

           4   A.  Yes, I told them that I had lied about certain things in

           5       my interview.

           6   Q.  But then, having pleaded guilty to attacking Mr O, you

           7       gave an explanation, in the course of your trial at

           8       Snaresbrook and again at the Old Bailey, as to how you

           9       had got the gun on 29 July 2011, do you remember?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  In your defence statement, which is the document you

          12       sent to the court and to the prosecution, setting out

          13       what it was or how it was that you got the gun to beat

          14       Mr O -- could you please have CD18223 again, which is

          15       the defence statement.  (Pause)

          16           At the top of that page, 18223:

          17           "The defendant accepts that he drove to an address

          18       and collected a handgun in a sock intending to return to

          19       the scene and frighten O with it."

          20           Then, at the end of that paragraph:

          21           "On the same day ..."

          22           You were asked about Mr Stern about this:

          23           "... the defendant returned the gun whence it came.

          24       The defendant dare not provide the identity of the

          25       source of the gun or his address."


                                            71
 

 

 


           1           All right?

           2   A.  Correct.

           3   Q.  When you gave evidence, however -- and I think really

           4       just to speed up -- I won't ask that each page is put in

           5       front of you.  Take it from me, please, that this is

           6       what you said at trial:

           7           "Answer: I called the person who I had retrieved it

           8       from and told them where I was and made arrangements for

           9       it to be given back to him.  I brought it back to where

          10       I originally picked it up from."

          11           You also said:

          12           "Question: Are you prepared to say the address at

          13       which you got the gun?

          14           "Answer: No, I'm not, sir."

          15           But then you said -- rather, you were asked this

          16       question:

          17           "Question: You first thought you had taken it back,

          18       you now think it was collected from you.  What was it

          19       that caused you to change your memory?

          20           "Answer: Seeing the phone records."

          21           So let me ask you --

          22   A.  Sorry --

          23   Q.  Let me ask you the question.  The gun that you say you

          24       went to pick up, did you pick it up from an address or

          25       on the street, on 29 July 2011?


                                            72
 

 

 


           1   A.  Outside an address on the street.

           2   Q.  Why couldn't you say then that you picked it up on the

           3       street at a particular street without giving the name or

           4       address of the person from whom you got it?

           5   A.  Because I don't want to do that.

           6   Q.  Sorry?

           7   A.  Because I don't want to do that.

           8   Q.  You were worried, you claim, that giving the address

           9       would reveal the identity of the person who gave it to

          10       you and you didn't want to get them in trouble?  Why

          11       couldn't you say "Well, I picked it up in a street, it's

          12       not the street at which he lives, it's just in a street"

          13       and give the detail, if this person exists?

          14   A.  Because I refuse to do so.

          15   Q.  Why?

          16   A.  I've answered that question before.

          17   Q.  There was no other person, was there,

          18       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?  You went to Burchell Road and got

          19       the gun from there and then you took it back there in

          20       the evening where your phone records show you were.

          21   A.  May I stop -- the cell siting proves I didn't go to

          22       Burchell Road to retrieve that gun.  So, no, I didn't go

          23       there.

          24   Q.  You took the gun back there though, didn't you, in the

          25       evening?


                                            73
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I didn't.  No, I didn't.

           2   Q.  When the gun was handed over to you, if there was such

           3       a person, did you ask why it was in a sock?

           4   A.  No, I didn't have any need to.

           5   Q.  Well, what did it mean to you?  What did you think about

           6       the fact it was in a sock?

           7   A.  It didn't mean anything.  It didn't mean anything to me.

           8   Q.  Why was it in a sock, Mr Hutchinson-Foster?

           9   A.  I wouldn't know, I never put it on there.

          10   Q.  Sorry?

          11   A.  I did not put the sock on there so I don't know.

          12   Q.  You agreed that you used a gun with a sock on 29 July.

          13       Why did you think the gun was in a sock?

          14   A.  I don't know and I didn't care to think about that.

          15   Q.  What's the advantage of having a gun in a sock,

          16       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?

          17   A.  I don't know.

          18   Q.  Have you ever held a gun on another occasion in a sock?

          19   A.  No, I haven't.

          20   Q.  Was the person wearing gloves when they handed it over

          21       to you, if they handed it over to you?

          22   A.  I don't remember.

          23   Q.  How often do you receive a gun in a sock,

          24       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?

          25   A.  Not often, but it still doesn't mean that I'm going to


                                            74
 

 

 


           1       remember, because I don't.

           2   Q.  So on 29 July 2011, a day which you now accept was a day

           3       you hit another man with a gun over the head, to which

           4       you pleaded guilty and received a prison sentence, and

           5       on the same day that you received a gun, you cannot

           6       remember anything more about the way in which you

           7       received the gun?

           8   A.  No, I can't.

           9   Q.  The person who gave it to you; male or female?

          10   A.  I'm not going to answer any questions in regards to

          11       that.

          12   Q.  Did they come out of the address when you arrived in

          13       your hire car or did you go into their address?

          14   A.  I would not like to answer any of those questions.

          15   Q.  Afterwards, you tucked the gun, once you had used it on

          16       Mr O, into your waistband; is that where you usually

          17       carry a gun?

          18   A.  (Pause) I don't carry a gun, normally.

          19   Q.  You have been convicted, by another jury, of supplying

          20       the gun to Mr Duggan, which was found in Ferry Lane and

          21       which led to unparallelled disorder, remarkable,

          22       extraordinary events in London.  You've agreed --

          23   A.  That wasn't down to me.  That was down to the negligence

          24       of the police, not to do with me.

          25   Q.  You tell this jury how many times you must have wondered


                                            75
 

 

 


           1       how the gun, on 29 July, was in Ferry Lane?  You, if you

           2       are to be believed, have been wrongly convicted of

           3       supplying it.  So tell us --

           4   A.  Which is --

           5   Q.  -- who do you think put the gun into, I suggest,

           6       Mr Duggan's possession?

           7   A.  It's not my job to presume or make assumptions like you

           8       and quite a few of the other barristers have done.

           9       I don't know how it got there because I wasn't there.

          10       I didn't give Mark a gun so I don't know if he had a gun

          11       in his possession.

          12   Q.  So you've never thought where that gun went after

          13       29 July?

          14   A.  After 29 July, it wasn't my concern anymore.

          15   Q.  You must have thought to yourself, "If this gun was

          16       passed to him, it makes it incredibly significant, and

          17       this is a gun that I used on 29 July", so you must have

          18       asked yourself "Where did it go, who had it?"

          19   A.  That was not my concern.

          20   Q.  After your release from prison on licence in April 2011,

          21       did you own or drive a car registered in your own name?

          22   A.  (Pause) Not that -- I can't recall.

          23   Q.  You used hire cars and taxis --

          24   A.  I sold the car -- I sold the car that I had.

          25   Q.  Did you have any car registered in your name that gave


                                            76
 

 

 


           1       your address?

           2   A.  (Pause) No.

           3   Q.  Did you have to pay for hire cars and taxis,

           4       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?

           5   A.  It's called "hire car" for a reason.

           6   Q.  How did you pay for them?

           7   A.  With money that was -- was --

           8   Q.  Yes?

           9   A.  -- given to me.

          10   Q.  Money that was given to you?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  You stayed at a lot of different addresses, didn't you,

          13       after April 2011?  You stayed in Burchell Road --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- was that --

          16   A.  Occasionally.

          17   Q.  -- regularly?

          18   A.  Occasionally.

          19   Q.  You stayed there on the --

          20   A.  Occasionally.

          21   Q.  You stayed there on the night of 27 and 28 July 2011,

          22       the day before the incident with Mr O.  You were there,

          23       of course, on the afternoon --

          24   A.  And plenty of other days.

          25   Q.  -- of 4 August.  How long had you been seeing Desire


                                            77
 

 

 


           1       Cox?

           2   A.  I told you, over a period of six years.

           3   Q.  You stayed elsewhere, didn't you?  You stayed in

           4       Chelmsford?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  In Romford?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  You stayed there regularly, didn't you --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- the night of 28, 29 July and the night of 3 and

          11       4 August?

          12   A.  That's two different addresses you said I've stayed at

          13       those dates.

          14   Q.  You didn't spend every night at the hostel at Nevill

          15       Road, did you?

          16   A.  No.

          17   Q.  How often were you actually there, Mr Hutchinson-Foster?

          18   A.  I couldn't say.

          19   Q.  You weren't there very often, were you?

          20   A.  I was there often but I just never slept there very

          21       often because I didn't have a girl to sleep with.

          22   Q.  So you drove around using taxis and hire cars, you spent

          23       a considerable number of nights in addresses belonging

          24       to your girlfriends or the mother of your daughter, and

          25       you were rarely to be found at the hostel, were you?


                                            78
 

 

 


           1   A.  I was always at the hostel.  I just never slept there

           2       all the time.

           3   MR KEITH:  I have no further questions, thank you.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           5           Mr Butt?  Ms Leek?  No.  Mr Glasson?  No.

           6   MR STRAW:  May I raise just one short question, which is in

           7       response to a new issue that was raised by Mr Stern?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  I'm sure you could ask

           9       a question, as long as you put your microphone on.

          10           The last few questions, Mr Hutchinson-Foster.  The

          11       first one from Mr Straw.

          12                  Further questions by MR STRAW

          13   MR STRAW:  Thank you very much, sir.  Mr Hutchinson-Foster,

          14       I'm asking about the incident in which you were

          15       assaulted on the Holly Street Estate towards the middle

          16       or end of July 2011.

          17           You mentioned earlier that at two criminal trials,

          18       I think on oath, you said Mark Duggan wasn't the man who

          19       attacked you, but in fact he stopped the attack.

          20   A.  Correct.

          21   Q.  I'm just going to read it out and I'm sure I'll be

          22       stopped if I've got this wrong, CHF4383, you were

          23       asked -- and this is the second criminal trial, I think:

          24           "Question: Did there come a stage where the incident

          25       stopped?


                                            79
 

 

 


           1           "Answer: Yes, there did.

           2           "Question: As far as you could see, what caused it

           3       to stop?

           4           "Answer: Mark shouting to them to leave it.

           5           "Question: Mark being?

           6           "Answer: Mark Duggan.

           7           "Question: Had Mark Duggan been present when the

           8       incident began?

           9           "Answer: Not when it started, no.

          10           "Question: Did you see him arrive?

          11           "Answer: No, I didn't see him when he arrived."

          12           Is that right?  Is that the effect of your evidence

          13       at the criminal trials?

          14   A.  Yes, it was.

          15   MR STRAW:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Straw.

          17           Mr Underwood, anything?

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising, thank you very much.

          19               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I just, final two points just

          21       for me and then you will be able to go,

          22       Mr Hutchinson-Foster, so I have completely understood

          23       your recollection of the account.

          24           In relation to the gun in the Lagoon incident that

          25       you agree you were in possession of -- all right, I'll


                                            80
 

 

 


           1       just ask you about that --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- at any stage did you know whether

           4       it had ammunition, bullets, in it or not?

           5   A.  I didn't check to see.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would you know how to check to see?

           7   A.  To be quite frank with you, no.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You wanted to use the gun to

           9       frighten but not to shoot, you told us.

          10   A.  Correct.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is the gun more frightening inside

          12       or outside of its sock?

          13   A.  The thought of a gun is frightening.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't take it out of the sock?

          15   A.  No, I didn't.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Other questions about Mark Duggan's

          17       knowledge of Burchell Road address.

          18           As far as you're aware, before 4 August, did Mark

          19       Duggan know that you at any stage went to an address in

          20       Burchell Road?

          21   A.  After parking in the car, after (inaudible), when I

          22       get -- if I've been dropped off and he's in the car

          23       that's dropping me off, we've been there.  But maybe he

          24       does not know directly the name of the person who I was

          25       staying with.


                                            81
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Thank you very much.

           2       That's all I want to ask.  Anything arising out of that?

           3           All right, that concludes your evidence,

           4       Mr Hutchinson-Foster.  In a moment we can turn off the

           5       screen and you will be able to leave the place where you

           6       are now and go back onto the Isle of Sheppey where you

           7       are continuing to serve your prison sentence.  Thank you

           8       for offering and submitting to the questions that you

           9       have.  All right, thank you.  Goodbye.

          10                      (The witness withdrew)

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's see if we can turn off the

          12       cameras in Maidstone Crown Court.  We have now done

          13       that.  We are now looking at Court 76.  We are back here

          14       now.

          15           What's the position now, Mr Underwood?

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  We have a number of witnesses, of whom

          17       I suspect we'll get through two today, but they both

          18       require closed court.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Might it be better, given the time,

          20       that we break now for an hour and aim to start at 1.45,

          21       and that court will then be in what we call closed

          22       session so the members of the public are up in Court 76?

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The cameras now being off, I'll now

          25       ask the members of the jury, when they're ready, to


                                            82
 

 

 


           1       leave us, please.

 

 

 

                                            83
 

 

           7   (12.48 pm)

           8                     (The short adjournment)

           9   (1.48 pm)

          15                  (In the presence of the jury)

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes Mr Underwood?

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, can I just give a little update on where

          18       we are and where we're going next.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you are proposing to say a few

          20       words to the jury before calling the witness, I'll let

          21       those operating the cameras know so they can put the

          22       cameras on here for a moment in the usual way.

          23           No response to that.  We'll press on regardless.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Members of the jury, we have more or less

          25       completed the planning evidence now and we're going to

 

 

 

 

 


                                            85
 

 

 


           1       get into a stage of evidence where we're dealing with

           2       the firearms officers.

           3           I am first of all going to deal with Detective

           4       Sergeant Dempsey, whose name cropped up last week as

           5       possibly the man under the white arrow, who may or may

           6       not have been going into the minicab.  I am going to

           7       call him to ask him if he was that person.  No doubt if

           8       he is he will be asked lots of questions.  If not, he'll

           9       be short.

          10           Then we'll get to V59, the team leader of the

          11       firearms officers and then we'll work out through the

          12       various firearms officers on the day.

          13           There will be a training video of a hard stop that

          14       you are going to see this afternoon, which I'll have V59

          15       look at and explain to you.

          16           We will have a bit of an interruption into the

          17       firearms officers this Thursday afternoon.  We have all

          18       seen the BBC footage, as we keep calling it, endless

          19       times now.  We've got the two witnesses who took that

          20       footage now from the flat opposite and they are kindly

          21       coming to court this Thursday afternoon so we'll bring

          22       those in in the middle of the firearms officers.

          23       Subject to that, what we have now is a couple of weeks

          24       of firearms officers.

          25           Having said that, I'm going to start with DS Dempsey


                                            86
 

 

 


           1       if I may.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He is a witness who will be named

           3       but, as I understand it, has been granted an order so

           4       that he will not be shown on screen.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's correct.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So I'll ask just for the moment to

           7       allow him to come into court, for the cameras to be

           8       turned off and I'll ask DS Dempsey to come into court.

           9                  DS PAUL DEMPSEY (ZZ42) (sworn)

          10                   (The witness was anonymised)

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you would

          12       like to is a seat then, firstly, I'll indicate that the

          13       cameras can now be turned back on.

          14           Yes?

          15                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Detective Sergeant, my name is Underwood and

          17       I'm counsel to the Inquest.  I have some questions for

          18       you.  Can you first tell us your full names, please?

          19   A.  Detective Sergeant Paul Dempsey.

          20   Q.  Were you attached to Trident in August 2011?

          21   A.  I was.

          22   Q.  I think you were on duty with ZZ08 in an unmarked car or

          23       unmarked vehicle that day?

          24   A.  That's correct, yes.

          25   Q.  Did you make your way to Ferry Lane?


                                            87
 

 

 


           1   A.  We did, yes.

           2   Q.  Did you arrive after the stop had taken place?

           3   A.  I did.  I'd been on a period of leave, so I had to go

           4       to --

           5   Q.  Please?

           6   A.  -- West Hendon to collect some equipment and then make

           7       my way towards Quicksilver.  I had a family member who

           8       had a fall, so I was delayed getting to Quicksilver so

           9       by the time we got there -- by the time I got there,

          10       most people had left and then we made our way to

          11       Ferry Lane and when we got there all I found really was

          12       a lot of people putting up cordons.  I assisted with

          13       that.

          14           I saw a man I now know to be Mark Duggan being given

          15       first aid by the firearms officers and so I just

          16       assisted in securing the scene and seeing if the

          17       Tactical Firearms Commander wants me to do anything

          18       else.

          19   Q.  Do you happen to know precisely what time you arrived?

          20   A.  No.

          21   Q.  We can probably narrow it down by reference to other

          22       vehicles that were there.  Had any paramedics arrived?

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  Was CPR being carried out, to your knowledge?

          25   A.  It was, yes.


                                            88
 

 

 


           1   Q.  We know that an officer was hit, that's W42; were you

           2       conscious of that?

           3   A.  I was aware an officer had been hit.  I didn't know it

           4       was W42.

           5   Q.  Did you see him?

           6   A.  I don't believe I did.  I think I may have seen him

           7       being escorted into an ambulance later on, but I don't

           8       think -- I don't recall seeing him at the time.

           9   Q.  What we're trying to do is identify a person on what

          10       we're calling the BBC footage.  We have managed to put

          11       a white arrow over his head most of the time.  I want to

          12       show that to you, if I may, and ask you whether it's you

          13       or whether it is somebody else.

          14   A.  Yes, sir.

          15   Q.  Can we have a look at it on the screen, please.

          16             (Video footage was played to the court)

          17           We'll let it run for a few minutes to give you

          18       a better chance.  It's probably quite difficult at the

          19       moment.

          20           The arrow stops, you have to keep your eye on the

          21       white top, if you could.

          22                    (The video footage ended)

          23           What you've got is one person with a white top in

          24       the vicinity of the vehicles.  There's another person in

          25       a white top off to our right, up by what looks like


                                            89
 

 

 


           1       a cordon; is either of those you?

           2   A.  It's definitely not me by the vehicles where the stop

           3       had been made and where the shots were fired.  It may be

           4       me towards the Ferry Lane end -- sorry, towards the

           5       Tottenham Hale end towards the Tube station.

           6   Q.  Do you know Q63?

           7   A.  I do.

           8   Q.  A suggestion has been made that the person by the

           9       vehicle may be Q63; would you like to comment on that?

          10   A.  I believe this is Q63, this is not the first time

          11       I dealt with this footage because I dealt with it in the

          12       Hutchinson-Foster trial.  I am fairly confident that's

          13       Q63, but he would have to confirm him himself.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  There may be some more

          15       questions but that that's all I have.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Mansfield, Mr Thomas, Mr Straw?

          17                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          18   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes, one question.  My name is Michael

          19       Mansfield, I represent the Duggan family.

          20           You made a statement where you indicated you had

          21       identified yourself in a photograph.  I want to show you

          22       that in one moment.  Do you recall what you were wearing

          23       that day?

          24   A.  I know exactly what I was wearing.  It's a beige

          25       short-sleeved shirt that, in all honesty, does not fit


                                            90
 

 

 


           1       me very well.  It's quite big.

           2   Q.  I'm sure it wasn't just that.  What else were you

           3       wearing?  Sorry, I ask it because there may be

           4       a distinction between the two white shirts, do you

           5       follow, by what they're wearing below?

           6   A.  It would have been dark jeans of some sort, I can't

           7       recall.

           8   Q.  I'm going to show you a photograph, I think you've seen

           9       before, which is -- it's GAJ/12 and it's also CE370,

          10       I think -- is that a 7 or is it a 1?  310, sorry, yes,

          11       there it is.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On the screen now.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  This is obviously later because there's

          15       an ambulance car there.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Unless I've got it wrong, you have identified yourself

          18       in the middle of the road, the one, in other words, just

          19       in front of the bonnet of the ambulance car?

          20   A.  Yes, I believe that's myself with the Tactical Firearms

          21       Commander and I think it's Q63 at the back doing the

          22       video of first aid.

          23   Q.  The difference is you appear to have darker trousers,

          24       that's all, and he's got jeans, Q63?

          25   A.  Yes, I don't own jeans that light.


                                            91
 

 

 


           1   MR MANSFIELD:  Fine.  Yes, thank you very much.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Any other questions at

           3       all for Detective Sergeant Dempsey?  No, there does not

           4       appear to be.

           5           Mr Underwood?

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Nothing from me.  Thank you very

           8       much.  I ask, before you move, for the cameras to be

           9       turned off, please, and now, thank you very much, then,

          10       Detective Sergeant Dempsey for assisting us, that

          11       concludes your evidence.  Please do not talk to anyone

          12       about the case until it's all been dealt with.

          13   A.  Thank you.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, you may now

          15       leave.

          16                      (The witness withdrew)

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  V59, please.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'll let V59 come and give evidence.

          19                           V59 (sworn)

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would you please just have a seat

          21       just for the moment.  Firstly, the cameras now can be

          22       put on and I want you to identify yourself from a list

          23       of those that have -- is it there before you?  There's

          24       a list of names.

          25                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD


                                            92
 

 

 


           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  You will be given a laminated list of ciphers

           2       and names, Sergeant, in a minute, and while that's

           3       coming can I introduce myself.  My name's Underwood, I'm

           4       counsel to the Inquest and what I'm going to ask you to

           5       do is look at that list and go down to V59, please.

           6   A.  Yes, that's me.

           7   Q.  That's your name by the side of it, is it?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Thank you very much.  I can tell from your stripes

          10       you're a Sergeant.

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  In August 2011 were you a Sergeant?

          13   A.  I was, yes.

          14   Q.  Were you the team leader for the firearms team that was

          15       involved in the stop in Ferry Lane on 4 August?

          16   A.  Yes, I was.

          17   Q.  We're going to hear later on, in much more detail, about

          18       the firearms curriculum and the entire training but

          19       while you're here, can we just get a few questions and

          20       answers about that so we can get a picture of how

          21       firearms officers trained and the way the system

          22       operates.

          23           First of all, are there levels of firearms officers

          24       in the Met?

          25   A.  Yes, there are.


                                            93
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Can you tell us what they are?

           2   A.  Your basic authorised firearms officer, they do sort of

           3       static protection, looking after embassies, et cetera.

           4           Then you have those who work in specialist teams,

           5       such as the flying squad and moving further on to that,

           6       there's CO19.  We have those who patrol in uniform, in

           7       marked vehicles, armed response officers.

           8   Q.  Those are the ARVs, are they?

           9   A.  That's correct.  Then there are the specialist teams and

          10       our team who patrol -- or don't patrol -- book out

          11       authorised operations in covert ARVs and we're trained

          12       primarily in MASTS and containment and call out

          13       operations.

          14   Q.  Is there a progression, as it were, through the ranks

          15       for these types of operation?

          16   A.  Yes.  If you look purely at CO19, there is the ARVs,

          17       that's a basic course where you do a three-week weapons

          18       course -- sorry, a two-week weapon course, I believe it

          19       is now, and a three-weeks tactics course, followed by

          20       a two-week building search course.

          21           There's obviously other courses as well, driving

          22       courses, method of entry courses and various weapons

          23       courses.  Then moving beyond that to the tactical

          24       support teams, that's a further seven-week course, which

          25       primarily focuses on covert work and containment and


                                            94
 

 

 


           1       call out operations.  Again (inaudible) vehicle options,

           2       interceptions and, as mentioned, in through buildings.

           3   Q.  Tactical support teams, the TSTs, that's the level of

           4       team that was involved with this MASTS operation on

           5       4 August, is it?

           6   A.  That's correct, yes.

           7   Q.  You've told us about the layout of the system and

           8       progression.  How about choosing people?  How easy is it

           9       to get onto one of these firearms teams?

          10   A.  It's a very difficult process to get through.  I don't

          11       know the exact process, how you enter CO19 now.

          12       However, I would imagine it's something -- when

          13       I joined, it was a two-day selection process initially

          14       to get onto the courses themselves and then the courses

          15       are very hard to get through.

          16           Then from ARVs through to the TSTs, that is now

          17       a four-day assessment, I believe, and then a decision is

          18       made whether you go to the TSTs and once you've been on

          19       the TSTs there's a further development onto the

          20       Specialist Firearms Officers team.

          21   Q.  All right.  So assume -- going back to the period before

          22       2011, the sort of time when you were progressing through

          23       this -- that you had, first of all, got through the

          24       selection process for an AFO at all --

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            95
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- and then you had gone the further step of being

           2       chosen to be a TST --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- in the TST, you then get your training.  Then was

           5       there refresher training at all?

           6   A.  Yes.  There's ongoing training -- you have to attend

           7       training -- it's one week every six weeks when we cover

           8       the tactics, weapons drills, classification shoots.  You

           9       must classify once every three months to keep your

          10       authority to carry a firearm.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry what?

          12   A.  Classify, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Whilst we are getting quite used to

          14       some of these acronyms, I know probably most of your

          15       life is speaking with other police officers, rather than

          16       members of the public, explaining what you do.  But now

          17       you are explaining what you do to people -- I am talking

          18       about myself really -- who do not understand all of

          19       these details so please be very careful, nice and

          20       slowly.

          21   A.  Apologies.  You have so classify on a weapon, so

          22       therefore you have to take a test, effectively, where

          23       you -- there's 100 rounds of ammunition and you

          24       basically have various disciplines of shoots where you

          25       must score 90 per cent, so you must hit the target in


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           1       the designated area 90 times out of 100.  That happens

           2       once every three months.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Just sticking with the firearms training

           4       itself for the moment, is there any training devoted to

           5       the decision whether to fire or not to fire?

           6   A.  Yes, that's part of our ongoing cycle.  We use a --

           7       there's various scenarios that are run through by the

           8       instructors, where there's an option to fire or not to

           9       fire, and to use less lethal options if necessary, such

          10       as a Taser or a baton gun where applicable.

          11           There's also a system at our training centre

          12       where -- I'm not sure it's the correct term -- it's

          13       called the judgement range, where basically it's

          14       a selection of videos and the scenario plays out and

          15       then you make a decision at what point you would take

          16       the shot if necessary and on some occasions not take the

          17       shot at all.  You let the scenario play out in front of

          18       you and then make your decision based on that and then

          19       you play it back afterwards and go through the

          20       decision-making process.

          21   Q.  That -- let's call it "shoot/no shoot" for the moment --

          22       that shoot/no shoot, is that something you are trained

          23       on initially and then left alone or is that part of the

          24       refresher training every few weeks or so?

          25   A.  It's part of the refresher training.  It's ongoing


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           1       throughout all of our training.

           2   Q.  I'm going to come back to hard stops in particular in

           3       a moment because we have a training video that I would

           4       like you to go through with us.

           5           Stick for the moment just with use of firearms.

           6       Let's take the worst case scenario: when a firearms

           7       officer of whatever level is faced with somebody aiming

           8       a gun at them --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- and they take a decision that they need to shoot that

          11       person, the firearms officer takes that decision; what's

          12       the objective in firing at that person then?

          13   A.  The objective is to neutralise the threat that they pose

          14       with that firearm.

          15   Q.  What does that really mean?

          16   A.  In reality, what that means is the officer is perceiving

          17       an imminent threat to their lives or the lives of

          18       others, and therefore, in order to deal with that

          19       threat, they have to take action to deal with that

          20       threat so that threat no longer exists.

          21   Q.  So if I'm standing here with a machine gun aimed at

          22       you --

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  -- and you've got whatever firearm you happen to have in

          25       your possession at the time.  What's it going to take to


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           1       neutralise the threat that I'm producing?

           2   A.  That all depends on your actions.  Obviously, if you're

           3       pointing a machine gun at me, I will respond

           4       proportionally with the weapon that I've got.

           5       Therefore, I would fire a shot back at you.  I would

           6       then reassess the threat you pose and then, if

           7       necessary, shoot again.  If the threat has then gone

           8       away I will then stop.

           9   Q.  Let me ask you about this reassessment: you're trained

          10       to reassess between shots are you?

          11   A.  Yes, we are.

          12   Q.  There must be times when that's essentially almost

          13       impossible, mustn't there?  Take me and my machine gun

          14       you are not going to have much chance to reassess, you

          15       shoot me once and I'm still aiming my machine gun at

          16       you, you're just going to keep firing until I stop,

          17       aren't you?

          18   A.  If you are still pointing a firearm at me I will shoot

          19       again and if you are still pointing at me I will shoot

          20       again until the threat goes away.

          21   Q.  This may sound very harsh but if I'm doing this, if I'm

          22       aiming my machine gun at you, does it matter to you

          23       whether neutralising kills me or maims me or just winds

          24       me or what, as long as it stops me?

          25   A.  Obviously, any death is regrettable.  However, I've


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           1       been -- there's an imminent threat to my life and

           2       therefore I'm protecting myself or my colleagues or

           3       a member of the public by responding to you by using my

           4       weapon.

           5   Q.  Right.

           6   A.  If that results in your death, sad as that may be, it's

           7       the threat that you pose towards me that I'm attempting

           8       to neutralise.

           9   Q.  Likewise, if I was aiming my machine gun at the jury,

          10       you would do the same thing?

          11   A.  Exactly, yes.

          12   Q.  Before we go on to the hard stops, I want to ask you

          13       about your role.  You were Tactical Advisor and the

          14       Operational Firearms Commander on 4 August, were you

          15       not?

          16   A.  No, I was the Operational Firearms Commander.  The

          17       Tactical Advisor was Inspector Bennett, he provided the

          18       tactical says to the TFC and the SFC.  In my role on the

          19       day, I was as an accredited Tactical Advisor -- I've

          20       passed a course for that -- I was able to give more

          21       details to the TFC, Z51, in relation to the tactics that

          22       had already been set out and the parameters set out by

          23       Inspector Bennett but I was not the designated Tactical

          24       Advisor.

          25   Q.  I see.  So you could give tactical advice, if asked?


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           1   A.  In relation to what had already been given.

           2   Q.  I understand.  Again, tell us about this for the moment

           3       in terms of training: what did the training involve to

           4       be the Tactical Advisor?

           5   A.  To become a Tactical Advisor takes -- it's a two-week

           6       course, it's a national course and basically it means

           7       that you can give advice to senior members in the

           8       firearms command area of our business, in relation to

           9       what will be suitable tactics to deal with a given

          10       scenario, ie a male collecting a firearm, a male with

          11       an address, wanted for a serious offence.

          12   Q.  We heard from what I will still call the Gold Commander,

          13       for the Operation Dibri that we're talking about here

          14       and the priority she said in strategy, and then we've

          15       seen how the tactics were fitted into that and how the

          16       tactical advice works.

          17           But if you were on the ground, as team leader and

          18       somebody asks you for tactical advice, are you drawing

          19       on any of the experience that you got from that

          20       training?

          21   A.  Yes, yes, sir.  I would say that the tactical advice

          22       that's been given in this occasion by Inspector Bennett,

          23       covered a MASTS operation, Mobile Armed Support to

          24       Surveillance operation.  The advice I would give him --

          25       sorry, I would give the TFC, Z51, in relation to this


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           1       operation, would be specifically around how we would

           2       implement that tactical advice given by Inspector

           3       Bennett.  So if we were to go beyond the tactical

           4       parameters and tactical advice already provided by

           5       Inspector Bennett then I would refer the TFC back to

           6       a further Tactical Advisor who was not initially with

           7       the TFC.

           8   Q.  Let's say, for example, if Z51 had asked you at, I don't

           9       know, 5.30, half an hour before amber was called,

          10       whether amber could be called, that's something you

          11       could give advice on?

          12   A.  Yes, yes.

          13   Q.  Separately, you were the team leader --

          14   A.  I was.

          15   Q.  I say "separately", in fact you were the team leader of

          16       the firearms team?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Again, is there particular training for that?

          19   A.  Yes, I was the Operational Firearms Commander, that's

          20       a three-day course.  Again, it centres around decision

          21       making, and it's very similar in some parts to the

          22       initial part of a Tactical Firearms Commander report --

          23       my job as the Operational Firearms Commander was to link

          24       the TFC and the rest of the firearms team but there is

          25       a three-day course, which everyone has to pass and


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           1       reaccredit every three years to continue carrying out

           2       that role.

           3   Q.  Say you were the link, in essence, between Z51 and your

           4       team.

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  In practical terms, what were you doing on the day as

           7       a link man?

           8   A.  I was sat in the control vehicle, which I'm sure you've

           9       already heard was at the rear of the three covert ARVs

          10       and, as the intelligence came in to ZZ17 and to Z51,

          11       I would speak to those officers and then pass that

          12       information through to my team who were in the three

          13       vehicles in front of us.

          14   Q.  We know that you were present at the briefing on the

          15       3 August.  Perhaps we can look at the transcript we've

          16       got of that.  It's in our bundles, members of the jury,

          17       C12.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's in that bundle there.

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  It's behind divider C12, Sergeant.  We are

          20       now quite familiar with the background to this.  What

          21       I wanted to do was take you to your part of it, which

          22       starts at CD277, so on the fourth page.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Do you have it?

          25   A.  Yes, I do.


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           1   Q.  So Z51 hands over to you for the method.  Is this

           2       a familiar breakdown of a briefing, that the teams will

           3       be brought together, Z51 will tell the background, the

           4       intelligence will be given, and then methodologies over

           5       to you?

           6   A.  Yes, that's normally how that occurred.

           7   Q.  What's the purpose of you telling everybody involved in

           8       the operation these things?

           9   A.  The main role of the briefing is to ensure that everyone

          10       knows exactly how the tactics will be implemented and,

          11       therefore, when firearms officers are deploying on the

          12       streets or into a premises that everyone is aware what

          13       we're doing and to not -- and their own individual roles

          14       and responsibilities are outlined in a briefing like

          15       this and it also covers contingency, so that if we were

          16       to have a runner from a vehicle or we were to have

          17       a hostage situation -- how we would deal with that in

          18       very brief terms, so that everyone is aware of how they

          19       should react as well.

          20   Q.  We'll go through that.  Let's just make this clear, you

          21       were present at this briefing on 3rd and you gave this.

          22       But of course on the 4th there was not the opportunity

          23       to have this sit down and --

          24   A.  No there wasn't.

          25   Q.  -- thorough job, was there?  Let's have a look through


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           1       this then.

           2           You start off by wishing everybody good afternoon

           3       and then introduce yourself.  You say:

           4           "This is the tactical overview briefing for joint

           5       deployment of armed surveillance and Tactical Support

           6       Team officers working on behalf of SCD8."

           7           You say "on behalf of SCD8", was Trident, SCD8,

           8       regarded as the sort of owner of this operation?

           9   A.  Yes, it was.  They had requested us and we were

          10       a support service to them.

          11   Q.  "Written tactical advice has been provided.  I have read

          12       this advice and agree with its contents.  Any further

          13       tactical advice given will be documented in the

          14       operational tact value advice log.  There are

          15       8 surveillance officers armed today.  Can you please

          16       identify yourselves?  Thank you.  Surveillance officers

          17       will be armed for their own protection and to respond to

          18       any life threatening events which cannot be dealt with

          19       by the firearms team."

          20           In your position as the Tactical Advisor, if we can

          21       still call you that and the team leader, did you have

          22       any sway over the armed surveillance officers or not

          23       during the operation?

          24   A.  Sorry, sir, could you rephrase the question?  In what

          25       way?


                                           105
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Did you have any command role over the --

           2   A.  No, they were -- the surveillance team were commanded by

           3       the TFC, they were just an extra -- they are part of his

           4       tactical plan.

           5   Q.  Right.  The intention.  CO19 ensures will provide Mobile

           6       Armed Support to Surveillance and provide an armed

           7       arrest capability should intelligence or information

           8       warrant this action.  CO19 officers are responsible for

           9       any armed interception to arrest any subjects and any

          10       armed event in respect of threat to life of any person.

          11       The method.  It is the intention of CO19 to carry out

          12       interception by way of foot deployment, armed vehicle

          13       stop or entry to premises.  The exact location and

          14       method of deployment will be decided dependent upon the

          15       prevailing circumstances.  CO19 will deploy in

          16       4 vehicles, 3 CARVs and a control vehicle.  The control

          17       vehicle will contain the TFC and myself.  The call signs

          18       of these vehicles are ... Alpha Bravo Charlie and

          19       Control.  CO19 offers have been assigned their roles and

          20       responsibilities in this operation in previous briefing

          21       and these details are fully documented."

          22           Is that a briefing you had personally given the CO19

          23       officers?

          24   A.  Yes, it was.

          25   Q.  Did that deal with, for example, armament and who what


                                           106
 

 

 


           1       car, and that sort of thing?

           2   A.  That's exactly what it dealt with, sir, yes.  Basically

           3       postings to which vehicle and the team are well aware of

           4       which weapons they would take, depending on their

           5       postings in the vehicle, a brief precis of the facts

           6       from the firearms application and a brief discussion

           7       regarding contingencies and briefing locations,

           8       et cetera.

           9   Q.  Right.  We know the background to this, which is that

          10       there was a four-day operation running which initially

          11       focused on six subjects.  By the 3rd, there was a -- it

          12       was intelligence to the effect that Mark Duggan may, on

          13       the 3rd, be the most likely of those subjects to be

          14       involved in getting a gun.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  The impression given by what you're saying here is that

          17       everything is still open, it may be a foot, it may be

          18       a car, it may be premises?

          19   A.  Yes, yes.

          20   Q.  You are not focusing on any one particular person; is

          21       that fair?

          22   A.  That's correct, sir.

          23   Q.  Right.  Then you go on:

          24           "Could a less lethal option in the form of Taser

          25       will also be carried."


                                           107
 

 

 


           1           What was the deposition of Tasers; did every car

           2       have one or did every officer have one?

           3   A.  There were five Tasers amongst the team.  It's normal

           4       for the driver of each vehicle to be in possession of

           5       a Taser and there was one further Taser which I believe

           6       was on the Bravo car.

           7   Q.  Let's deal with armoury.  In the TST, everybody on

           8       an operation like this has their own personal sidearm;

           9       is that right?

          10   A.  Yes.  We have our own personal issue Glock, which is

          11       a pistol, we have our own personal issue MP5, which is

          12       a carbine, a small rifle, as you would see most of the

          13       police at the airports with.  We also have three G36s,

          14       which are more -- they have slightly more penetrating

          15       weapons, they are more sort of a rifle-type weapon, and

          16       there's others -- there's three Benelli shortened shot

          17       guns, the Hatton guns, which we load with Hatton rounds,

          18       which are used for tyre deflation on vehicle options.

          19           My vehicle also had a long shot gun, which is

          20       a contingency which we would use were we to enter

          21       a premises and have to deal with a dangerous dog, for

          22       example, and there was no other way of dealing with that

          23       dog.

          24   Q.  Is this right, that of the three people in each of the

          25       CO19 cars, they would each be likely to have a specific


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           1       weapon?  So the Hatton guns are in the back --

           2   A.  Yes.  Every officer would have their Glock and MP5.  The

           3       front seat passenger of all three vehicles has the

           4       option of taking their G36 if necessary, however there

           5       was no need at this stage --

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, you're going a bit fast.

           7       I know what we've all got this and we can look at it on

           8       the transcript afterwards but just help us a little bit.

           9       In each car you were telling us about the armaments.

          10       Can you repeat it again?

          11   A.  Each car, every officer deployed in the TSTs is in

          12       possession of their Glock and their own MP5.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  So the Glock is the pistol?

          14   A.  The Glock is the pistol which they wear on their waist

          15       when wearing normal clothing and the MP5 is slow, it's

          16       more of a small rifle.

          17   Q.  How is that carried?

          18   A.  Normally it's slung over your neck and under one arm and

          19       if I can show you it's carried -- you would carry it in

          20       its position when you were going to bring it to bear.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  We are going to see some of

          22       these.  I think it's important that we should at some

          23       stage but obviously not with this witness.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, the Metropolitan Police is kindly going

          25       to bring a MP5 to court one day and a pistol as well.


                                           109
 

 

 


           1       So for the moment then I take it everybody in the car

           2       has a sidearm in a holster and an MP5 available to them

           3       which they can sling round their neck if they want.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Then you were saying the G36s, which is the more

           6       powerful?

           7   A.  Yes, they would normally be posted with the front seat

           8       passenger of each Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, with you there

           9       was no need for them to take those weapons with them for

          10       a vehicle option.  Therefore, they were, as I understand

          11       it, in slips in the boot of the vehicles.  Then in the

          12       rear of each of those vehicles, there would be a Hatton

          13       gun, so a small shot -- a shortened shot gun used for

          14       tyre deflation.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  One of the rear seat passengers

          16       would have a Hatton gun to blow out tyres or whatever it

          17       may be?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Each driver has a Taser, but not the

          20       others.

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not the others?

          23   A.  There's a Taser on the Alpha Bravo Charlie and Delta, or

          24       Alpha, Bravo, Charlie control and one further on the

          25       Bravo car, I believe it was.


                                           110
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It was the driver who has the Taser,

           2       was it?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So the people getting out first on

           5       the passenger side, front and back, don't have Tasers.

           6   A.  No, sir, that's a tried and tested tactic because it's

           7       a -- Taser is used for -- generally for prisoner

           8       handling, it's a --

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Neutralising threat, isn't it?

          10   A.  It can be, sir, yes.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Me back with my machine gun facing you at

          12       this distance say, would a Taser be any use to you?

          13   A.  No, sir.

          14   Q.  Why is that?

          15   A.  Because I wouldn't -- a Taser is not proportionate to

          16       the threat I'm posing.  You have a machine gun, a Taser,

          17       from this distance, it may reach you because it's on

          18       a barb of 21 feet however you have a conventional

          19       firearm and I would want a conventional firearm to

          20       proportionally meet the threat you pose.

          21   Q.  I understand your reasoning but can you explain a little

          22       more for us.  What would a Taser do to me if I'm aiming

          23       a machine gun at you and you fire one at me?

          24   A.  A Taser can incapacitate a subject.  It can do.  There

          25       are reasons how it may not, depending on the clothing --


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           1       the barbs may not enter the clothing, if you have

           2       a thick jacket on it, it may not enter through that

           3       jacket and it relies on the fact that electricity from

           4       the Taser will arc through your body and incapacitate

           5       you, thereby stopping you responding with the threat

           6       that you have.

           7           However, on this occasion, or in the situation you

           8       were describing with you and a machine gun, you have

           9       a machine gun, a Taser, I don't think, would be suitable

          10       to -- there's no guarantee a Taser would work from this

          11       distance to start off with but also you have

          12       a conventional firearm which is a lethal threat and,

          13       I fear, an imminent threat to my life and I would

          14       respond appropriately with a firearm.

          15   Q.  Let's go back to disposition of men and guns and the

          16       car.  Now, obviously when you're briefing, as you were

          17       here, you don't know what stop might go in, whether it's

          18       full or otherwise or whether indeed you might have to

          19       enter premises.  Assuming, when you're briefing your men

          20       as you did on the 3rd, that you end up doing a hard stop

          21       with three cars.

          22           Do the three officers in each car have a specific

          23       role in the stop?

          24   A.  Yes.  To start off with, they do.  Would you like me to

          25       go through those?


                                           112
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Yes, please.

           2   A.  Obviously, the three drivers are driving to start with

           3       and their role is to put a position -- put the vehicles

           4       in position.  The front seat passenger of the Alpha

           5       vehicle, he would initially be the first person to stop,

           6       get out of the vehicle and he would initially place

           7       firearms cover so point his firearm towards the vehicle

           8       that's just been stopped.

           9           The rear seat passenger of the Alpha car is

          10       initially again providing firearms cover and looking to

          11       fill in a role around that stop.

          12           However, they have the additional task of being in

          13       possession of a Hatton gun if the vehicle were to

          14       attempt to make off.

          15           The Bravo vehicle, again you've got the driver, next

          16       to the driver, the front seat passenger, he will be

          17       looking to, again, provide firearms cover and place his

          18       weapon at the driver of the subject vehicle, in order to

          19       respond to any threat that they pose.

          20           The rear seat passenger, again, can have a Hatton

          21       gun as a contingency but will be looking to exit the

          22       vehicle as soon as possible and look to remove the

          23       occupants of the vehicle from that vehicle.

          24           In the Charlie vehicle again you've got the driver,

          25       the front seat passenger will be looking to make their


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           1       way as fast as possible to the front of the subject

           2       vehicle and extract the -- or remove the subject from

           3       within, and the rear seat passenger of the Charlie

           4       vehicle would be looking, again, to help with that

           5       extraction or would be, if necessary, deploying a Hatton

           6       gun to deflate tyres.

           7   Q.  So in terms of actually pointing guns into the subject

           8       car and dominating the occupants, you would expect the

           9       front seat passengers to be the first out of each of

          10       these cars to do that, would you?

          11   A.  Yes, yes I would.  However, can I just say it's quite

          12       a fluid situation.  You have to respond very quickly to

          13       what is happening in front of you, so although they may

          14       be your specific roles, these stops, although they are

          15       well practised and we run through them on numerous

          16       occasions and train with numerous different scenarios,

          17       you have to be flexible in your role and how you respond

          18       to what is happening in front of you.

          19   Q.  Very well.  I'm only dealing with the briefing at the

          20       moment and the expectations -- part of the expectation

          21       is flexibility, is it?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Going back to your briefing.  We are still on the top

          24       paragraph, halfway down:

          25           "The mobile part of the operation will run using the


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           1       traffic light system.  Does anyone wish me to go through

           2       this."

           3           They all say no:

           4           "Thank you.  So following a strike which could be

           5       a forced stop of subjects in a vehicle, a forced stop of

           6       subjects on foot or entry to premises CO19 officers will

           7       control the scene and deal with all subjects.

           8       A controlled handover of the scene and detained subjects

           9       will then be carried out.

          10           Before I go any further, was the notion then that,

          11       say, you end up with a hard stop, that you deal

          12       initially with the people in the car that you're

          13       stopping and then hand them over for formal treatment by

          14       the Trident officers?

          15   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

          16   Q.  So we know, and of course we've all watched television,

          17       that when people are arrested, they are read their

          18       rights, given a caution all that sort of thing.  Who

          19       would do all that?

          20   A.  That would be done by the Trident officers.

          21   Q.  Then:

          22           "Deployment and contingencies in relation to

          23       escapers, violent suspects, vehicle pursuits, attempted

          24       vehicle make off and suspects in premises have been

          25       discussed at a separate briefing and will be dealt with


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           1       by CO19 officers only."

           2           Let's go back to that.  Dealing with the prospect

           3       somebody may run away from the subject car if you end up

           4       with a three-car stop, was that actually dealt with at

           5       the briefing that you gave on 3 August with your CO19

           6       team?

           7   A.  Yes, that's the contingencies I spoke about earlier.

           8   Q.  I do not think that briefing was recorded, was it?

           9   A.  It wasn't, no.

          10   Q.  Can you help us with what you said?

          11   A.  I don't remember my exact words.  However, this is

          12       a fairly standard operation for the TSTs, so I can talk

          13       you through the sort of things that I would be

          14       explaining, relating to the contingencies.

          15           So, for example, escapers, I would expect only CO19

          16       officers to chase that subject.  We believe we've got

          17       an armed subject, and therefore we would be the ones

          18       looking to detain him and I wouldn't want unarmed

          19       officers to get involved with that.

          20           Violent suspects: a violent suspect who's not in

          21       possession of a -- how should I say, violent subjects --

          22       who's not in possession of a firearm would be dealt

          23       with, again, a proportionate use of force, maybe open

          24       hand safety techniques, or perhaps a Taser.

          25           A vehicle pursuit: again, that's something that


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           1       I would want the covert ARVs to deal with, but all TSTs

           2       officers are advanced drivers and are trained in pursuit

           3       and pursuit management.

           4           Attempted vehicle make off: I would be discussing

           5       the use of Hatton rounds there and tyre deflation for

           6       the vehicle.

           7           Suspect going into premises: I would be looking --

           8       depending on the actual information around suspects

           9       going into premises.  So if it was a -- we could go from

          10       a containment and call out of that address through to

          11       other options, if necessary.

          12   Q.  Right, okay.  Just looking over at page 279, because you

          13       have dealt with a lot of the matters which were

          14       contained also in this briefing.

          15           Just about halfway down in the middle you've got:

          16           "If injuries or casualties [something] medics will

          17       be the first responders and we will contact the LAS for

          18       paramedic ETA and prepare CasEvac vehicle.  I'll contact

          19       the nearest hospital and decide on any CasEvac action."

          20           In practical terms, what process was there for first

          21       aid: was any first aid kit carried, were people trained?

          22   A.  Yes.  Every officer who is trained CO19, initially has

          23       a basic emergency life support training day, which is

          24       one day.  We then have further ballistic first aid

          25       training to deal with the type of incidents that we


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           1       would come across, gunshot wounds, et cetera.

           2           I also on the day had one further trained medic who

           3       had done a further two-week course in relation to

           4       stabilising subjects who have been injured and also

           5       every vehicle has an enhanced first aid kit which

           6       includes oxygen, various bandages, treatment for most

           7       injuries that we would come across, in order to

           8       stabilise them whilst we are waiting for the ambulance

           9       service to arrive.

          10   Q.  Jumping ahead massively here, but we've heard about

          11       Asherman Seals being used --

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  -- can you explain those?

          14   A.  An Asherman Chest Seal -- as my understanding, it's not

          15       my area of expertise -- basically it's a -- it's like

          16       a plaster, a circular plaster which has -- it sticks on

          17       one side not on the other, therefore allowing fluid to

          18       escape from, normally, a lung and air not to be sucked

          19       back in, thereby stopping the lung collapsing.

          20   Q.  Some, at least, of your officers are trained in the use

          21       of those, are they?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  They are contained in the kits in the cars?

          24   A.  Yes, they are, yes.

          25   Q.  In terms of contacting London Ambulance Service and


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           1       getting paramedic support and so on, did your officers

           2       have any sort of fast track access to the ambulance

           3       service or just ringing 999 in the usual way?

           4   A.  The quickest way for us to contact the ambulance service

           5       is to ring 999.  We can obviously call back to our base

           6       and they can send a message to the LAS, which will then

           7       generate the same thing, but I have found through

           8       experience 999 is the quickest way to get hold of the

           9       LAS.

          10   Q.  Then "Post Incident Procedure" here:

          11           "In the event of shots being fired after

          12       neutralisation of any threat, the first responders to

          13       injured casuals will be [blank] medics."

          14           Something there about your medics, presumably, is

          15       it?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  "This operation is not suitable for the dedicated

          18       deployment of a paramedic ambulance due to the uncertain

          19       timeframes for activation.  Therefore LAS or HEMS will

          20       be called if required and an ETA from the LAS control

          21       room will be requested."

          22           Is ETA simply what it normally states: estimated

          23       time of arrival?

          24   A.  Yes, sir.

          25   Q.  HEMS, we know, is the Helicopter Emergency Medical


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           1       Service.  Again, was that something you had a fast track

           2       access to?

           3   A.  Again it's through the 999 system.

           4   Q.  Then:

           5           "If urgent treatment is required the decision may be

           6       taken to take carry out an immediate casualty removal to

           7       the nearest A&E department.  The scene will be sealed

           8       and preserved and officers will be called to the scene

           9       to assist with this.  The cordons will remain in place."

          10           Then you deal with officers going off the scene and

          11       so on.  Then if I go over the page to 280, can I jump

          12       a quarter of the way down that first paragraph to "Risk

          13       Assessment":

          14           "I have conducted a firearms operational risk

          15       assessment.  The CO19 tool box provides adequate control

          16       measures and a list of applicable assessments for this

          17       operation can be provided."

          18           What did you mean then by the "CO19 tool box"?

          19   A.  In terms of all our tactics are risk assessed by

          20       a separate department within CO19.  They provide a risk

          21       assessment document which lists the risk to the person

          22       and control measures in terms of how we can best manage

          23       that risk.  So, for example, use of a vehicle, use of

          24       a vehicle stop is all -- a vehicle interception is

          25       a topic and then the fact that the control measures, ie


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           1       our tactics that we're fully trained, that we have

           2       methods of dealing with people, are the control measures

           3       listed in the CO19 tool box.

           4   Q.  Okay.  Then:

           5           "A few reminders I need to go through: any changes

           6       in the situation status will be conveyed over the main

           7       working channel.  No officers to enter the CO19 area of

           8       operation post-deployment unless called forward.  Any

           9       officer did deployed with firearm drawn must wear a blue

          10       hi-vis cap.  Any suspects detained will be secured in

          11       plastic restraints and searched for weapons in CO19

          12       officers.  Human rights.  I'm not going to go into it in

          13       huge detail.  This operation is commensurate with the

          14       Human Rights Act.  Any questions?"

          15           That's the end of the general briefing, yes?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  What about firearms warnings?  We've heard those

          18       mentioned.  Did you give firearms warnings to the team

          19       in the separate briefing?

          20   A.  No, I didn't.  They are always given at every briefing

          21       by the Tactical Firearms Commander.

          22   Q.  We have already seen those here but that's a familiar

          23       set of warnings presumably for your team?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That briefing we have just read


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           1       through, you read out, it was tape recorded.

           2   A.  It was, sir, yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Why?

           4   A.  Because that's the standard operating procedures of

           5       CO19, to have the intelligence and the tactics recorded,

           6       I would imagine for incidents such as this.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you expect anybody listening to

           8       it to have learnt anything new or is it all something

           9       which in fact they are very well familiar with?

          10   A.  My element of the briefing, I'm sure they're aware of.

          11       The information earlier, I would imagine, is what

          12       they're all interested in.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Now, let's move on to hard stops.

          14           These are something for which TSTs are trained

          15       regularly, presumably?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.  We refer to them as "enforced stops" as

          17       opposed to "hard stops" or "option to non-compliance

          18       stops".  We train in them very regularly.  They are one

          19       of the main elements of our work.

          20   Q.  What is the objective of one of those stops?

          21   A.  It's to quickly isolate and detain a subject within that

          22       vehicle.

          23   Q.  By shocking them?

          24   A.  Yes, by shocking them, by both physical and

          25       psychological dominance, thereby shocking them and


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           1       allowing us to detain them as soon as possible and as

           2       safely as possible.

           3   Q.  Right.  I want to show you the training video.  Let me

           4       say it once, it's a general training video for stops

           5       like this.  It's got nothing specific to this stop.

           6           There are some things in it, like people using

           7       Hatton rounds when they don't need to, which are clearly

           8       just fed into the training to give people a chance to do

           9       it.  So I am not suggesting for a moment that this is

          10       an idealised version of one of these stops.  Can we show

          11       it?

          12             (Video footage was played to the court)

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Shall we see that again?

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Please.

          15             (Video footage was played to the court)

          16           I'm going to ask you a few questions about that and

          17       perhaps we'll look at it again.  First of all, is what

          18       we're seeing there, of the Alpha, Bravo and Charlie cars

          19       hemming the car in, how it's supposed to happen?

          20   A.  That's not the best video.  However, that's

          21       a representation of, yes, how it should happen?

          22   Q.  Secondly, the pointing of guns, the shouting, the

          23       continual commands, is that the sort of shock treatment

          24       that we were discussing?

          25   A.  Yes, that's -- yes, sir.


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           1   Q.  Thirdly, we appear there to see the front seat

           2       passengers being out fastest to control the car and,

           3       again, is that the sort of operational speed at which

           4       they work?

           5   A.  Yes.  Yes, that clip -- if not quicker, hopefully.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You think they are rather slow on

           7       that one, did you?

           8   A.  I think they were quite tardy, sir, yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I won't ask what marks they got from

          10       the people watching them!

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  We see, after the subject is brought to the

          12       ground and taped up, we see somebody going to the boot

          13       and shouting "Clear".

          14   A.  Yes, sir.

          15   Q.  What's going on there?

          16   A.  They're clearing the boot for subjects, for people,

          17       purely that.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  They are not looking in the back for

          19       guns or anything like that?

          20   A.  No, purely for people.  The whole deployment and stop is

          21       about clearing the vehicle of people, no further

          22       evidence, just people.

          23   Q.  Would CO19 ever be interested in going into the car for

          24       anything else?

          25   A.  No.


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           1   Q.  Again, we may have to come back to the video looking

           2       carefully for these two things.  First of all, as far as

           3       one can tell, the officers here don't point their guns

           4       in a way where they're likely to shoot each other if the

           5       guns go off; is that fair?

           6   A.  That is the hope.  It's a very flexible, very fluid

           7       situation where you have to respond to what's happening

           8       in front of you.  There is obviously a risk there of

           9       what we term a blue on blue because of the fast nature

          10       and the very quick deployment of officers surrounding

          11       a car.  There's always that risk and it's one of those

          12       risks that we have to manage as best we can.

          13   Q.  Let's take that in stages.  Are you trained to avoid

          14       aiming your gun at another officer?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Is that what we saw happening there, that people weren't

          17       aiming their guns at other officers?

          18   A.  They were attempting not to.

          19   Q.  But in practical terms it sometimes happens; is that

          20       your point?

          21   A.  Yes, it does, yes, due to the positioning of the

          22       vehicles.

          23   Q.  Again, we'll go back to it to watch this, but it looks

          24       like the Charlie car coming up to the rear comes up

          25       quite a long time after everybody else is up?


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           1   A.  Yes, it does.

           2   Q.  Is that normal or is that something wrong with the

           3       training here?

           4   A.  I would suggest something's wrong with the training,

           5       sir.

           6   Q.  So now can we watch it again with all that in mind,

           7       please.

           8             (Video footage was played to the court)

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It is a trained driver who's driving

          10       the C car, is it?

          11   A.  I don't know who it was, sir.

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps he's used to driving automatics.

          13           Now, I want to move on to the actual events of

          14       4 August.  I'm going to ask you in some detail about

          15       your arrival at Quicksilver and from there on through

          16       the hard stop.  I don't know whether this might be

          17       a convenient moment for a --

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No.  We were going to have

          19       a mid-afternoon break.  We've done an hour, so perhaps

          20       this might be the moment then for our ten-minute break

          21       and then we'll press on with this officer's evidence.

          22       Obviously, this officer is going to take up probably the

          23       rest of the day with his evidence.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think so now, yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are.  Thank you.


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           1           All right, members of the jury, I ask for the

           2       cameras to be turned off, please, and then if you would

           3       like to have a ten-minute break.  Thank you.


          11   (2.47 pm)

          12                         (A short break)

          13   (2.59 pm)

          16                  (In the presence of the jury)

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The witness, please.

          18                (The witness returned into court)

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  V59 you are

          20       still under oath so have a seat there and we'll carry on

          21       with the questions and the cameras may be turned on.

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sergeant, 4 August 2011 then, I think you

          23       came on duty at 1600?

          24   A.  Yes, I did.

          25   Q.  At Leman Street?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                           127
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Did you give any sort of briefing there to your team?

           3   A.  Yes, there was a tactical briefing.  As mentioned

           4       previously, I went through the postings and told them,

           5       basically, it was the same information as we'd had

           6       previously.  I also gave W70 a copy of the firearms

           7       application so he could read that whilst on the way to

           8       Quicksilver.

           9   Q.  Is that because he wasn't there the day before?

          10   A.  That's correct, yes.

          11   Q.  How many officers were on your team?

          12   A.  On the day?

          13   Q.  Yes.

          14   A.  Myself plus ten.

          15   Q.  Of those ten, obviously three per car --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- and what was the other one doing?

          18   A.  He was the driver in the control vehicle.

          19   Q.  Right.  Then did everyone collect their arms --

          20   A.  That's correct.

          21   Q.  -- and make their way to Quicksilver --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- in convoy?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  I think you got a telephone call while you were en route


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           1       to Quicksilver from ZZ17.

           2   A.  That's correct, yes.

           3   Q.  That updated you on the intelligence and we've heard

           4       from him that that was to the effect that a subject was

           5       going to the Leyton area; is that right?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  So did you speed up?

           8   A.  We did.  We used our warning equipment and made our way

           9       to Quicksilver.

          10   Q.  Did ZZ17 give you further intelligence when you got to

          11       Quicksilver?

          12   A.  Yes.  Upon arrival, he told me the subject was

          13       Mark Duggan and that he was en route to collect

          14       a firearm, in the Leyton area I believe.

          15   Q.  Now -- sorry, let's just wait for fingers and pens to

          16       catch up -- at that stage, was there a choice to be made

          17       about whether you dashed straight off to the Leyton area

          18       or waited for other people to arrive at Quicksilver?

          19   A.  As mentioned previously, I'm a support service, I do as

          20       directed by the Tactical Firearms Commander.  So I was

          21       awaiting his directions.

          22   Q.  Was there advice to be given about that?

          23   A.  At that stage, no.

          24   Q.  So the situation was that you were waiting for Z51 to

          25       arrive, I think?


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           1   A.  That's correct, yes.

           2   Q.  When he arrived, what happened?

           3   A.  At this stage we had, as I remember, an incomplete

           4       intelligence picture.  Upon his arrival, the

           5       intelligence was developing and I was aware that some

           6       Trident officers had been sent to Leyton to try and gain

           7       some surveillance control of Mr Duggan.  On speaking

           8       with Z51 and ZZ17, we discussed initially going to

           9       support the Trident officers.  Z51 asked if I could give

          10       my team the firearms warnings that we'd had previously,

          11       which I did, and we then made our way from Quicksilver

          12       to assist in -- to support the SCD8 officers.

          13   Q.  At that stage, were you aware of whether the unarmed

          14       Trident officers had got sight of Mr Duggan?

          15   A.  At that stage, no.

          16   Q.  I would like to deal with the contrast between what

          17       happened on the night before and then.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  The night before, as we understand it, 3 August, armed

          20       surveillance officers had at least briefly followed

          21       Mr Duggan and then lost him.  The expectation at that

          22       stage was that he might pick up a firearm that night?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Is that right?  But, as I understand it, the CO19

          25       officers stayed at Quicksilver while that was happening;


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           1       is that right?

           2   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           3   Q.  Here, on the 4th, you go out before anybody has caught

           4       sight of Mr Duggan?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Why the distinction?

           7   A.  The previous night, it was the SCD11 surveillance team,

           8       who, as mentioned in the briefing, are armed for their

           9       own protection, therefore they can respond to any threat

          10       posed to them.

          11           On the 4th it was SCD8 unarmed officers.  I was

          12       concerned at this stage that they were trying to gain

          13       surveillance control of a male who was attempting to

          14       source a firearm.  And I felt that we needed to be

          15       closer to them to respond to any threat to them.

          16   Q.  So you were giving advice to that effect, were you?

          17   A.  Yes, I advised Z51 about this.

          18   Q.  En route, did you get further intelligence?

          19   A.  Yes, I did.  We received intelligence that the SCD8

          20       officers now had surveillance control of Mr Duggan.

          21   Q.  Now, what was the logistics of this?  There you were in

          22       a convoy in north London, going out in support of these

          23       unarmed officers.  Where were you actually aiming for?

          24   A.  At this stage, they were in the Leyton area and we were

          25       in the Wood Green area.  So we had some distance to make


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           1       up in order to support them.  Therefore, we were aiming

           2       at this stage for the Leyton area.  However, we would

           3       not have got as far as Leyton -- we were making progress

           4       through the traffic using our blue lights and sirens in

           5       a convoy, however, had the intelligence not developed

           6       further, we would have turned that off at we got closer

           7       to the Leyton area, awaiting for further intelligence.

           8   Q.  As it turned out you got intelligence that they had eyes

           9       on the minicab.  What was the aim then: to get behind or

          10       what?

          11   A.  The aim then was just to support the SCD8 officers.  As

          12       mentioned in my brief, we used the traffic light system,

          13       I'm not sure if that's been discussed previously.

          14   Q.  We've discussed it but I am going to ask you more about

          15       it.

          16   A.  We were still at stage green at this stage, therefore

          17       there would be no deployment of the armed officers at

          18       this stage.

          19   Q.  There came a point when Z51 did call amber, I think?

          20   A.  Yes, he did.

          21   Q.  Were you party to that decision or did you give any

          22       advice about it?

          23   A.  I was not aware of the -- I was aware that there was

          24       intelligence being passed between ZZ17 and Z51.  I asked

          25       him -- I wasn't aware of what exactly that intelligence


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           1       was at that stage.  I asked him what his intentions were

           2       and, at this stage, he told me he was happy to go to

           3       state amber.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're asking Z51 that?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  The effect of that is to give the control to,

           7       as it turned out, W42, wasn't it, to make further the

           8       decisions?

           9   A.  At this stage the control -- although the TFC, Z51

          10       retained overall authority for the operation, he

          11       basically hands authority over to the firearms team,

          12       which I was of the team leader of the firearms team and

          13       therefore I took responsibility as the overall

          14       Operational Firearms Commander at that stage.

          15   Q.  What was W42's role?

          16   A.  His role: he's the front seat passenger of the Alpha

          17       car.  His role is also -- sorry, his role, as he's sat

          18       up the front there, is to call state red and implement

          19       the strike on the vehicle.

          20   Q.  What was the tipping point, as far as you were

          21       concerned, that made it right to go to state amber?

          22       Were you aware of it or was it just a matter for Z51?

          23   A.  I was aware of discussions in the rear, between from Z51

          24       and ZZ17.  I am not sure exactly what the intelligence

          25       was, however they were discussing firearms being


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           1       collected.

           2   Q.  Whatever it was, as far as you were concerned, Z51 was

           3       satisfied that it was time for amber?

           4   A.  Exactly, yes.

           5   Q.  The effect of that was formally you had control, but W42

           6       was the one who could take the next step --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- and that next step was calling red when he thought it

           9       right, yes?

          10   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          11   Q.  Help us with this: when you're in that situation, there

          12       you are in the control car, with the actual control at

          13       the time, but somebody three cars ahead of you, and

          14       perhaps more than three cars ahead of you in the

          15       traffic, is capable of, and required to, make the next

          16       step of calling red.

          17           What is it that will make him call red?

          18   A.  It's when he finds -- it's when he has -- he has the

          19       surveillance control himself of the vehicle and when he

          20       sees an area which he believes is the best and safest

          21       location to stop that vehicle.

          22   Q.  We know that the stop happened to take place directly

          23       after the one car between the CO19 vehicles and the

          24       minicab touched off.

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  Now, is it a barrier to putting a stop in, that there

           2       are any vehicles between the CO19 cars and the subject

           3       car?

           4   A.  Yes.  With -- having vehicles in amongst armed officers

           5       is a very dangerous situation and we would avoid that at

           6       all circumstances.

           7   Q.  Because we know there was no situation until Ferry Lane,

           8       until the CO19 cars were directly behind the minicab,

           9       does it follow that this was actually the first

          10       opportunity?

          11   A.  Yes.  The first safe opportunity.

          12   Q.  You say the first safe opportunity.  Can you help us

          13       with where it was at all possible to conduct it before?

          14   A.  As we turned into Blackhorse Lane, and we were sat in

          15       a row of traffic and -- Blackhorse Lane was a very busy

          16       road at that time of day, rush hour.  There were 10 to

          17       15 cars between us and the subject vehicle, if you

          18       include the surveillance officers from Trident.

          19           At this stage, we had our blue lights and sirens

          20       turned off.  However, at that stage we could have

          21       overtaken that queue of traffic and implemented the

          22       stop.  However, that would have been wholly

          23       inappropriate and dangerous.  Therefore, we waited for

          24       the lights to change, vehicles peeled off left and right

          25       at the next set of lights and we then found ourselves in


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           1       Forest Road and were able to move through the traffic to

           2       the Ferry Lane area, which was the first safe place to

           3       stop the vehicle.

           4   Q.  Let's get to the point where W42 calls red.  So all your

           5       cars are in the right convoy positions with each other

           6       and they're all directly behind the minicab; is that it?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  You are just into Ferry Lane.

           9   A.  Yes.  I believe actually, sir, we were at Forest Road

          10       when he called red.

          11   Q.  Sorry.  As far as you were concerned, you say that was

          12       a safe place.  Clearly, we've dealt with the safety in

          13       relation to other vehicles.  Was it a good place for

          14       a stop like this?

          15   A.  Yes.  It was as good a location as I've ever seen

          16       throughout my firearms career for a stop.  There was

          17       very few members of the public around.  There was the

          18       natural barrier to prevent escape of the railings and

          19       there was a large grassy area behind which would act as

          20       a sort of sterile area to keep any members of the public

          21       out and as a safe backdrop, were we to have to use our

          22       weapons -- sorry, I will explain the backdrop.

          23   Q.  Please.

          24   A.  Obviously, as you fire a weapon, a bullet, it travels

          25       some distance so you don't want it to be looking to fire


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           1       that weapon when it could travel into a house or into

           2       a busy shopping street, for example.

           3   Q.  What was your role at that point?  You were coming to

           4       the stop, obviously you're the team leader?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  But the officers and three cars have their specific

           7       functions and each car has its specific function; what

           8       was yours?

           9   A.  I'm the Operational Firearms Commander, so I'm in

          10       overall charge of all those officers and I would direct

          11       them, were we to have to deal with a contingency, such

          12       as a runner, an escapee, and monitor their welfare and

          13       ensure the stop is placed -- implemented safely or as

          14       safely as possible.

          15   Q.  In practical terms though, we've seen the video which,

          16       if I may say so, seemed quite fast time to us, and you

          17       say that was slow compared with what actually happens.

          18           There you are, fourth car in the row, these well

          19       trained people go in and do a stop.  How quickly can you

          20       get there to give them any direction?

          21   A.  Obviously, my vehicle is the last vehicle of the four to

          22       stop.  Therefore, by the time I get out of my vehicle,

          23       in the vast majority of cases, the stop has taken place

          24       and the subjects are detained.  However, if we then look

          25       at the contingencies, if they will look to run,


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           1       et cetera, if they're given that opportunity, at that

           2       stage then I've got slightly more time to catch up and

           3       do as necessary.  However, the officers, as mentioned,

           4       are very highly trained and can make the decisions

           5       however necessary.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are they all wired up for sound can

           7       you speak to them directly?

           8   A.  Yes, they've all got radios, sir.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are linked?

          10   A.  We are all linked together in one radio system, yes.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let's just deal with radios, there's

          12       a channel which everybody had access to on SCD8 SCD11

          13       and CO19 teams; is that right?

          14   A.  Yes, that is correct.

          15   Q.  But you, as a CO19 team, also had your own dedicated

          16       channel?

          17   A.  That's correct.

          18   Q.  Earpieces for that?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  So let's get to the stop.  Were you armed?

          21   A.  Yes, I was.

          22   Q.  What did you have?

          23   A.  I had my Glock and MP5.

          24   Q.  After red is called and the BMW, as we know it was,

          25       turned off into Jarrow Road and everybody is in


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           1       position, we know that W42 called "Strike".

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Then what happened?

           4   A.  The Alpha car, as you've seen on the video, overtook the

           5       people carrier.  Initially, I felt that the people

           6       carrier didn't yield straightaway, as we would like it

           7       to.  However, within half a second it had done.

           8           The Alpha car, again it's in the video, pinched

           9       across in front of the car bringing it to an abrupt

          10       stop.

          11           The Bravo car pulled alongside the people carrier

          12       and the Charlie car drove right to the rear of it.  We

          13       then stopped fractionally behind the Charlie vehicle.

          14   Q.  Then what do you see happen?

          15   A.  This is obviously a very fluid thing and there was a lot

          16       happening in front of me.  I could see officers getting

          17       out of the car and I was attempting to get out of my --

          18       it was a Range Rover Discovery.

          19           In front of me, I could see -- I saw Mr Duggan exit

          20       the vehicle and in a -- what I can describe as

          21       an inclined purposely forward -- like a runner coming

          22       out of the sprinter's blocks, run back towards the

          23       Charlie vehicle and myself.

          24           I lent forward to pick up my MP5 which is slung

          25       round my neck but between my legs as we come to a stop,


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           1       turn to my left, open the car door, as I've turned to my

           2       left I've seen the back of Mr Duggan's jacket and some

           3       feathers coming from the rear of his jacket -- I didn't

           4       see the back of his jacket, I saw feathers coming out of

           5       the rear --

           6   Q.  A cloud or just a few?

           7   A.  No, quite a lot come from the rear of his jacket.

           8       I turned to my left, opened the door, made my way around

           9       the vehicle door and made -- ran towards that position.

          10           It was obviously apparent to me that he'd been shot.

          11       He was caught by W70, who then pushed him backwards in

          12       sort of -- caught him and pushed him over backwards onto

          13       his back and took him to the floor.

          14   Q.  Pausing there.  You say it was fluid.  Let's see if we

          15       can pick apart any components of that.

          16           How far do you think Mr Duggan had got from the

          17       passenger nearside door before you saw him -- the

          18       feathers flying?

          19   A.  It's very hard to say.  Two to three metres?

          20   Q.  In terms of police officers at that stage, again just

          21       deal with the feathers flying for the moment -- were

          22       they converging on him or did you get a clear view or

          23       what?

          24   A.  They were converging on him.  I could only see, as he's

          25       facing towards me, his top (indicates) left quarter,


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           1       shoulder, side of his side.

           2   Q.  How broken was your concentration by getting your MP5

           3       and shutting doors and so on?

           4   A.  It's -- it was quite -- I have individual snapshots of

           5       what I saw, I didn't see the whole event because I was

           6       picking my weapon up and opening my door and climbing

           7       out of my vehicle.

           8   Q.  Did you see a handgun go flying?

           9   A.  No, I didn't.

          10   Q.  Did you see a handgun at all at that stage?

          11   A.  No, I didn't.

          12   Q.  Did you hear shouting?

          13   A.  I did not, no.  However, there were sirens on on my

          14       vehicle.

          15   Q.  What did you do after you saw W70 ease Mr Duggan down to

          16       the ground?

          17   A.  Initially, I ran -- I was running towards their

          18       position.  W42 shouted that he'd been shot.  I was aware

          19       that Mr Duggan had been shot.  I shouted to Z51 for

          20       a medic pack from our vehicle and to call for the LAS

          21       and HEMS.

          22   Q.  Did you know that Mr Duggan had been shot because of the

          23       feathers or because of something else?

          24   A.  It was obvious to me he'd been shot.  I saw the feathers

          25       and by the time I had run to their position his face was


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           1       ashen.  It was obvious he had been shot.

           2   Q.  You have not told us that you heard shots; did you?

           3   A.  Yes, I did.

           4   Q.  Let's again focus on Mr Duggan at the time the feathers

           5       were coming out.  In the first place, he was in a sort

           6       of running stance; is that fair?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  How did that change when the feathers flew?

           9   A.  By that stage I could only see the top quarter of him,

          10       so I couldn't say how his stance had changed.

          11   Q.  But was he going down?

          12   A.  He was coming forward, yes, until caught by W70.

          13   Q.  So at no stage did he come up; is that right?

          14   A.  Not that I saw.

          15   Q.  When you went, continuing your running towards the

          16       scene, can you help with how far Mr Duggan had got by

          17       that stage?  I know he was laid down on his back by that

          18       point but where was he in relation to the minicab?

          19   A.  He was between the rear of the minicab and the front of

          20       the Charlie car.  That sort of side, on the pavement

          21       obviously to the left of those two vehicles, not between

          22       the two vehicles.

          23   Q.  Sure.  So you shouted to Z51 for the medic pack, you

          24       organised people to call for ambulances and HEMS and so

          25       on; what else did you do?


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           1   A.  I got a medic pack myself, which I placed on the

           2       pavement.  I then began directing my officers in

           3       relation to specific roles.  Obviously I had V53, V48

           4       and R68 carrying out first aid on Mr Duggan.

           5           There were other officers carrying out first aid on

           6       W42 and I was conscious at this stage that we needed to

           7       seal the scene as much as possible, exclude the public

           8       and get further resources to our position.

           9           So I requested officers to assist with that.

          10       I requested officers to -- who weren't tasked, to take

          11       some still photographs, and one of the officers to video

          12       the scene and then, as time passed, it became apparent

          13       that at this stage we could not find the firearm.

          14   Q.  You say you could not find the firearm.  By this stage,

          15       what was your understanding of the intelligence about

          16       Mr Duggan and a firearm?

          17   A.  Prior to the stop, sir, or --

          18   Q.  Yes.

          19   A.  My intelligence -- I had been informed by ZZ17 that

          20       Mr Duggan was in possession of a firearm.

          21   Q.  Right.  So you expected a firearm at the scene, but you

          22       say you didn't see a firearm being flung or of course

          23       a gun in Mr Duggan's hand --

          24   A.  No, I didn't.

          25   Q.  -- because you couldn't see his hand, could you?


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           1           Did someone look in the minicab for a gun?

           2   A.  Not that I recall.  I did not see anyone do that.

           3   Q.  Why not?

           4   A.  It's possible they could have done, however I didn't see

           5       them do it.

           6   Q.  You were directing your officers --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- and your intelligence was that before the stop there

           9       was a gun in the car, the minicab, yes?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  You had not seen one.  Had you any reason to believe it

          12       had come out of the car at all?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  What was that?

          15   A.  I -- people were -- the officers were talking about

          16       a firearm and shots had been fired.  Therefore, as

          17       mentioned earlier, they responded to that threat with

          18       a firearm.  I was expecting to see a firearm.

          19   Q.  When you say people were talking about a firearm, can

          20       you amplify that a bit?

          21   A.  I think someone was saying "Where's the gun?"  But I'm

          22       afraid I couldn't tell you who that was.

          23   Q.  Was anybody talking about what had actually happened in

          24       addition to "Where's the gun?"

          25   A.  No, no.  It was -- we obviously had one of our


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           1       colleagues shot, Mr Duggan had been shot, my immediate

           2       concern at that stage was to try and ensure both of --

           3       ensure both their safeties.

           4   Q.  What was your picture of what had happened, mentally?

           5       Was it that Mr Duggan had shot someone or a policeman

           6       had shot another policeman or what?

           7   A.  It was very apparent, within a minute at most, what had

           8       happened, in that V53 had shot Mr Duggan and the round

           9       had continued straight through and hit W42.

          10   Q.  You say that was apparent to you, obviously; was that

          11       discussed with anybody else, as far as you know?

          12   A.  No, not at that stage, no.

          13   Q.  No.  So getting back to your concern that there's

          14       a firearm there somewhere and it hasn't been found.

          15       What did you do?

          16   A.  I turned to R31, who at this stage wasn't undertaking

          17       any first aid or any other tasks, and I asked him to

          18       look for the firearm.

          19   Q.  What happened after that in relation to that firearm?

          20   A.  After a few minutes he informed me that he had found

          21       a gun on the other side of the railings on the grass

          22       area.

          23   Q.  What did you do?  If anything.

          24   A.  At this stage, I -- we had further resources coming to

          25       assist us anyway.  I think, as an ARV arrived, I asked


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           1       them to go and preserve the scene where that gun had

           2       been found.

           3   Q.  Were you there when the HEMS doctor came?

           4   A.  Yes, I was.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Did you have any discussion with him?

           6   A.  Yes.  They carried out some first aid on Mr Duggan.

           7       However, sadly, at 18.41, I think, the doctor -- his

           8       call sign was medic 1 -- informed me that he was going

           9       to pronounce him life extinct.

          10   Q.  In due course, did you leave the scene with V72 and

          11       R68 --

          12   A.  Yes, I did.

          13   Q.  -- and go back to Leman Street --

          14   A.  That's correct, sir.

          15   Q.  -- and go through the post-incident procedure there?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Very broadly, what does that involve?

          18   A.  We're seen by -- depending on what your exact role is,

          19       our weapons are handed over to the IPCC and the DPS, our

          20       complaints department.  We're seen by people from the

          21       Federation, the post-incident manager and our legal team

          22       come down and speak to us as well.

          23   Q.  Did you make any notes?

          24   A.  I did.  I wrote -- I made an initial note in an evidence

          25       and action book.


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           1   Q.  We can see that, we can put it up on screen and we don't

           2       need to look at a hard copy unless you have them there.

           3       But very briefly, to see the sort of thing that goes on,

           4       CD9 is the first page, I think; is that the evidence and

           5       actions book?

           6   A.  That's it, yes.

           7   Q.  If we go to 12, we see -- you start it on the 4th and

           8       cross that out and put "5th" in because you finished

           9       them at ten minutes past midnight?

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  You say:

          12           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty in plain

          13       clothes in company with other officers for [blank].

          14       I was in possession of my personal issue Glock SLP ..."

          15           The handgun, is it?

          16   A.  Self-loading pistol, yes.

          17   Q.  "... and MP5 and posted to control.  I was deployed on

          18       Operation Dibri a pro-active SCD8 operation.  I was the

          19       Specialist Firearms Commander and Tactical Advisor to

          20       the Tactical Firearms Commander.  At about 17.15 we

          21       departed for Quicksilver patrol base.  Whilst en route

          22       I was updated with intelligence from SCD8.  Due to this

          23       intelligence and further intelligence received over the

          24       next 30 to 40 minutes I provided tactical advice to the

          25       TFC.


                                           147
 

 

 


           1           "In response to this at 18.13 hours my team carried

           2       out an interception on a bronze-coloured people carrier

           3       [registration].  One of the occupants of this vehicle

           4       was believed to be in possession of a firearm.  The

           5       vehicle stop was implemented in Ferry Road, N17.  As the

           6       stop was carried out, a male exited the nearside.  As

           7       I exited my vehicle I heard a number of shots being

           8       fired and a male fell to the ground.  As soon as he did,

           9       a number of officers began to administer first aid.

          10       I ensured the scene was secured and all officers were

          11       safe.  First aid conditioned until LAS/HEMS arrived.

          12       After a short time we all left the scene and returned to

          13       HD."

          14           "HD" is Leman Street, is it?

          15   A.  That's correct.

          16   Q.  That's your recollection those six hours or so

          17       afterwards?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Now, going back to the training video we saw, it's not

          20       an exhibition or model session but my point is the

          21       Charlie car came up quite late?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Is that what happened here or not?

          24   A.  No.  The stop was implemented exactly as planned.  All

          25       of it was in position very quickly, much quicker than


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           1       that training video.  It was a perfectly implemented

           2       stop in terms of vehicle positioning.

           3   Q.  Can you help the jury with how it was, with all that

           4       shock and awe going on, that Mr Duggan was able to get

           5       out of the minicab and run two or three metres before

           6       officers got there?

           7   A.  No, sir.  I don't know how he did that.

           8   Q.  Again, we've dealt with officers shooting each other by

           9       accident.  Would you like to comment on the fact that

          10       V53 shot W42?

          11   A.  (Pause) Except to say it's a risk we try to manage as

          12       best we can.  However, from that training video, it's

          13       obvious there are a lot of armed officers in very close

          14       proximity to each other and it's a risk in what we do.

          15   Q.  Can I show you what we're continually calling the BBC

          16       footage now.  I'm sure you've seen this by now.

          17   A.  I have, yes.

          18   Q.  Have you seen the version with coloured arrows over

          19       people's heads?

          20   A.  Yes, I have.

          21   Q.  I want to show it to you -- until frankly we get the

          22       witnesses here to explain the order in which they took

          23       these pieces of video we're still a little in the dark

          24       about sequence, but let's have a look.  The purple arrow

          25       is, we think, of your head when it turns up.  Can we


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           1       just run through it and just watch it for the moment and

           2       we'll come back to some questions.

           3             (Video footage was played to the court)

           4           Just in general terms, what's been going on there?

           5   A.  I believe I was just liaising with Z51 and other

           6       officers to ensure that cordons were put in place and we

           7       had further resources en route.

           8   Q.  We see what looks like an armed response vehicle comes

           9       along and is sent off down to Jarrow Road?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Is that part of your work too?

          12   A.  Yes, I think, just before you can see a group of people

          13       in the top left-hand corner, there I was worried was

          14       concerned that they might contaminant the scene.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That shows you, the arrow?  Can you

          16       see yourself on that?

          17   A.  Yes, the purple arrow is me.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The purple or pink -- or whatever it

          19       may be, not blue or white -- is you?

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Blue arrow is Z51.  There is evidence from

          21       him that he's the one who found the gun.  R31 is on the

          22       grass but has not got to the grass by the time he does

          23       that; can you comment on that?

          24   A.  R31 informed me that he'd found the firearm.

          25   Q.  Can I ask you to look at CD691.  This is what looks like


                                           150
 

 

 


           1       a front page of some flip charts that runs for about

           2       ten pages or so before we get to some maps.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Are these your flip charts?

           5   A.  They were flip charts I asked one of my officers to

           6       create whilst we wrote our detailed account.

           7   Q.  We know that a number of officers wrote their detailed

           8       account on 7 August --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- after they had had some time; was that when this was

          11       compiled?

          12   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  We also know from a statement that you have kindly given

          14       us, that that was the day on which you gave your

          15       detailed account?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  You were in the, I think, ARV briefing room, is that

          18       right, at Leman Street?

          19   A.  That's correct, yes.

          20   Q.  You tell us that you were there between noon and 8.20 at

          21       night.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Were a number of officers there for a long time like

          24       that?

          25   A.  Yes, we were all there for a long time.


                                           151
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Was the purpose of this flip chart to set out the basics

           2       for everybody's accounts, such as which car they were in

           3       what times things happened, and so on?

           4   A.  Yes, exactly.  It was to confirm times, places,

           5       locations, postings, sequence of events.

           6   Q.  Why did it take everyone to long to write their

           7       accounts?

           8   A.  We wrote our accounts -- although we wrote them in the

           9       same room we wrote them separately.  However, we all

          10       wrote -- we did them in segments, so to start off

          11       3 August, then we wrote down details of 3 August and

          12       wrote that section and as you finish your section you

          13       then left the room, got a cup of coffee had a comfort

          14       break, et cetera.  When everybody had finished their

          15       section 4, for example, 3 August, we all came back into

          16       the room together went through the flip chart process

          17       wrote the next section and then we all wrote that.

          18           So each section took as long as the longest person,

          19       if you like, because if you had less to write you left

          20       earlier, if you had more to write you write more.  So

          21       the process took a long time.  We wanted to make sure we

          22       got as much as detail into our statements to give the

          23       IPCC as much as evidence and information as possible.

          24   Q.  Let's put ourselves there.  Were there a number of

          25       tables?


                                           152
 

 

 


           1   A.  There was, I think, six tables just like these ones all

           2       pushed together in the middle and we all sat around

           3       those tables.

           4   Q.  Were people who were in a particular car grouped

           5       together while they were sitting there?

           6   A.  No, sir we just sat around the tables.

           7   Q.  So let's just take a snapshot of -- I don't know, the

           8       decision to call red.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  You've got flip charts which set out the time when that

          11       was done and where you were before and after and so on.

          12       How did the discussion go prior to people writing their

          13       accounts in their own statements about for example the

          14       decision to call red?

          15   A.  As we -- as we put the flip chart up, we would discuss

          16       where red was called, what time it was called, who

          17       called it, that would be written on the flip chart, and

          18       then any other details in relation to that particular

          19       element.  Then officers would then use that to ensure

          20       they got the correct time, role et cetera, but they

          21       would write their own evidence in relation to that

          22       particular element, and there was no more discussion,

          23       really, other than that.  It was a case of just ensuring

          24       we had the right times, locations and the sequence of

          25       events, if you like.


                                           153
 

 

 


           1   Q.  When it came to the crucial issue, if I may call it

           2       that, of Mr Duggan getting out of the minicab and the

           3       shooting, was there discussion?

           4   A.  In relation to the shooting?  No.

           5   Q.  Or him getting out of the minicab?

           6   A.  No.  There was individual officers' accounts of what

           7       they saw because everyone was looking at it from

           8       a different direction, based on where their vehicles

           9       were parked.  Everyone had a different account of what

          10       they saw.

          11   Q.  I'm being told I didn't ask you what you saw of

          12       Mr Duggan getting out of the minicab itself.  Can you

          13       help us with that?

          14   A.  Yes.  As I said, as the vehicles have stopped, I saw the

          15       side door -- I saw him exit the side door very quickly,

          16       rapidly, as mentioned earlier, as a sprinter exiting the

          17       blocks, if you like, and rapidly move towards the

          18       officers who deployed from the Charlie car.

          19   Q.  Would it be fair to say, given that he only got two to

          20       three metres that the time which had elapsed between him

          21       getting out of the minicab and the feathers coming out

          22       of his back was extremely short?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much indeed.

          25   A.  Thank you.


                                           154
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?

           2                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           3   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon.  My name is Michael

           4       Mansfield, I represent the Duggan family.

           5   A.  Right, sir.

           6   Q.  I want to begin at the end a bit, in other words with

           7       the record you made.  But firstly this: a central point

           8       of this operation, do you agree, was obviously the

           9       recovery of firearms --

          10   A.  Yes, it was, sir.

          11   Q.  -- and the making safe of firearms.

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  That is not something that you can overlook, is it?

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  I want you to look at your -- the booklet you have just

          16       looked at.  I am not going to read through the note that

          17       has just been read out.  It's CD0009.  You either have

          18       the original there or you have a copy of it, perhaps

          19       that can go up on screen.

          20           This is the first page of this.  It indicates, in

          21       case the jury have not seen one of these -- an EAB

          22       stands for an evidence and actions book.

          23           Now, did you have this with you when you were in

          24       Ferry Lane?

          25   A.  No, I didn't.


                                           155
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So I think as you've indicated, you had to write this up

           2       later.  At Leman Street, did you do it?

           3   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

           4   Q.  Yes.  Your reporting number is there, V59.

           5           Now, on the next page, there's an indication of why

           6       you weren't able to do it at the scene.  I don't take

           7       time over that.  That's 0010.  Then we get to 0011.

           8       There's the time at the top of the page, which stretches

           9       between, clearly, the 4th and the 5th.

          10           Now, I want you just to, if you wouldn't mind, bear

          11       with me while we read what comes next:

          12           "It is essential that you record ..."

          13           Do you see this:

          14           "... a complete account of events.  It is intended

          15       to protect you from needless civil action or complaint

          16       investigation.  You MUST follow the following guidance.

          17       Your notes will be subject to close scrutiny.  You may

          18       confer with other officers who were present for

          19       an overview, but these notes are to assist YOUR

          20       recollection."

          21           That's the preamble.  Then there are indications or

          22       guidance about the -- background, the scene, the state

          23       of the information, if the notes were not made and so

          24       on, and not mentioning sensitive sources, then there's

          25       this under action:


                                           156
 

 

 


           1           "State what happened when you arrived.  Record all

           2       questions asked/answers given both before and after

           3       caution."

           4           That is presumably intended to relate to somebody

           5       who's alive and arrested, is it, or what?

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  Right:

           8           "Keep an open mind.  You are bound to gather all

           9       evidence, entitled to question any person ...

          10           "Fully record your actions and the options

          11       considered up to the point of arrest.

          12           "Show what factors influenced your decision, include

          13       reasons for not taking action."

          14           And so on.  So what this page is indicating at the

          15       very start, and it's filled out a bit more as we go

          16       down, it's essential you record a complete account of

          17       events; do you see that?

          18   A.  That's what that page states, yes.

          19   Q.  You do take this seriously, obviously, all officers do,

          20       don't they?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  Yes.  Then you have set out your account, which the jury

          23       have seen or had read to them over these pages.

          24           Do you agree that in these pages that you then write

          25       out that night, there's nothing about the gun that was


                                           157
 

 

 


           1       recovered, is there?

           2   A.  No, there's not.

           3   Q.  Could you explain that, please?

           4   A.  The ACPO manual of guidance which all firearms officers

           5       work to, states that we should give a brief account for

           6       the investigative team and then have a fuller account,

           7       which is what I completed on 7 August, which details all

           8       the evidence.

           9   Q.  Well, I'll come to what ACPO says about it.  But we see

          10       what the notebook says, "A complete account", does it

          11       not?

          12   A.  Yes, it does, sir.

          13   Q.  The notebook itself is not indicating to you a brief

          14       account, is it?

          15   A.  This notebook, no, sir.

          16   Q.  I want to come back to the question of the gun and the

          17       finding of the gun.  In addition to that, therefore, let

          18       us look at what ACPO says.  Could we have CD010958,

          19       please.  At the bottom of the page, it can just be

          20       enlarged, it says, the left-hand side:

          21           "Providing accounts", do you see that?

          22   A.  Yes, I do.

          23   Q.  I don't read 7.91 unless somebody wants me to, it's

          24       about leaking advice.  7.92 is the bottom paragraph, do

          25       you have that?  Perhaps it can be enlarged so the jury


                                           158
 

 

 


           1       can see it.  It's this paragraph:

           2           "Each officer's initial account should only consist

           3       of their individual recollection of events and should,

           4       among other things, address the question of what they

           5       believed to be the facts and why, if relevant, they

           6       considered that the use of force and discharge of

           7       firearms was absolutely necessary."

           8           Now, you were familiar with that, were you?

           9   A.  Yes, I was.

          10   Q.  So you've got a fuller picture, just over the page in

          11       the copy I have but it's the next paragraph, 7.93:

          12           "Detailed accounts should not normally be made

          13       immediately, but can be left until the officers involved

          14       in the shooting are better able to articulate their

          15       experience in a coherent format, normally after at least

          16       48 hours."

          17           Now, I just want to deal with, first of all, 7.92.

          18       First of all, it's not suggesting a brief account, is

          19       it?

          20   A.  No, sir.

          21   Q.  No.  It's requiring that you should put down your

          22       individual recollection of events.  So one of the events

          23       was of course the finding of the gun, wasn't it?

          24   A.  Finding the gun, yes.

          25   Q.  Yes.  I have to ask you whether, in fact, because we've


                                           159
 

 

 


           1       seen other officers' notes which don't include -- I've

           2       dealt with Z51 so you know -- was this whole matter left

           3       until you had sorted out what you were all going to say

           4       about it?

           5   A.  No, sir.

           6   Q.  No, all right.  I have to ask you that.  Then it goes

           7       on, still on 7.92:

           8           "Address the question of what they believed to be

           9       the facts and why, if relevant, they considered that the

          10       use of force and discharge of firearms was absolutely

          11       necessary."

          12           Now, so far, I've been asking officers about the

          13       first issue the jury have been considering.  The second

          14       issue is, of course, the use of force being absolutely

          15       necessary.  Those are the two main issues.

          16           When you wrote your notes up, that's the EAV we have

          17       just looked at, did you consider that aspect: whether

          18       the use of force and discharge of firearms was

          19       absolutely necessary?

          20   A.  Yes, I did.

          21   Q.  What's the answer?

          22   A.  I believe it was, yes.

          23   Q.  Was it?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  How did you discern that?


                                           160
 

 

 


           1   A.  It was not my use of force.  It was use of force by

           2       another officer.

           3   Q.  Yes.  How did you discern that that was absolutely

           4       necessary?

           5   A.  I'm sorry, sir, can you rephrase the question for me?

           6   Q.  Yes.  I'm dealing with you, not with other officers.

           7       "Each officer's initial account", all right --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- "should only consist of their individual ..."

          10           So we're talking about an individual recollection,

          11       which is yours.  What the guidance is suggesting is that

          12       why, if relevant, they considered that the use of force

          13       and discharge of firearms was absolutely necessary.  Of

          14       course, that either applies to you if you discharged

          15       one, which you didn't, or other officers who did, in

          16       your presence in your team.  Did you consider that

          17       aspect?

          18   A.  Yes, I did.  But I did not use force, so I did not

          19       mention it in my initial account.

          20   Q.  Yes, you didn't, but others did?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Did you mention in your note any consideration of

          23       whether the use of force by other officers in your

          24       presence was absolutely necessary?

          25   A.  I did not note that, no.


                                           161
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You didn't consider it?

           2   A.  I didn't note it, sir.

           3   Q.  Did you consider it?

           4   A.  (Pause)

           5           No, it's their decision to justify their use of

           6       force.

           7   Q.  Yes, but you're the team leader.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  One doesn't want to, as it were, imbue you with

          10       hindsight or anything, you were there.  You watched

          11       what -- as far as you could -- what happened -- I have

          12       to come back to it -- you watched what happened, didn't

          13       you?

          14   A.  Yes, I did.

          15   Q.  Watching what happened, did you consider it was

          16       necessary -- consider that it was necessary -- before

          17       you wrote your EAV?

          18   A.  Yes, I did.

          19   Q.  Did you consider that it was necessary --

          20   A.  Yes, I did.

          21   Q.  -- by other officers?

          22   A.  Yes, I did.

          23   Q.  What justified that in your mind?

          24   A.  The fact that Mr Duggan had left a vehicle and they had

          25       made a decision that he posed an immediate threat to


                                           162
 

 

 


           1       their life or others.

           2   Q.  How does that justify it?  We'll come to the other

           3       officers, obviously I'm talking about you, you see.

           4       What did you see that justified the use of force that

           5       was absolutely necessary?

           6   A.  Sir, I saw nothing.  However, they obviously did.

           7   Q.  Right.  You saw nothing.  So why is this not entered up

           8       in your notebook, that you saw nothing to justify it,

           9       but they did?  You are supposed to note it up -- as the

          10       team leader, I suggest, you're supposed to note it up,

          11       aren't you?

          12   A.  No, I don't believe I am, sir.

          13   Q.  You don't think you are?

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  Can we just go a little bit further then?  You saw

          16       nothing to justify it.  In fact, as far as your account

          17       is concerned, you didn't see Mr Duggan with a gun at

          18       all, did you?

          19   A.  I did not, no.

          20   Q.  You didn't hear Mr Duggan shoot a gun, did you --

          21   A.  No, sir.

          22   Q.  -- firearm.  You discovered relatively quickly that he

          23       didn't have a gun on him.

          24   A.  There was no gun apparent after he'd been shot.

          25   Q.  There was no gun apparent.  I just want to go through


                                           163
 

 

 


           1       this.  So you have seen nothing to justify the shooting

           2       and there was no apparent gun.  This must have begun to

           3       concern you a bit as to whether it was absolutely

           4       necessary to shoot him?

           5   A.  No, it did not.

           6   Q.  It didn't?

           7   A.  No.

           8   Q.  Would it be fair to say it didn't concern you because

           9       you had absolute faith in your officers; is that fair?

          10   A.  Yes, I do.

          11   Q.  Yes, I know.  Is that the reason why it didn't concern

          12       you; because you have absolute faith in your officers?

          13   A.  I'm concerned if anyone's been shot.

          14   Q.  Right.  Of course, one is concerned about anyone being

          15       shot, whether it's a police officer or a civilian.

          16       Whoever they are, however they are.  One is concerned

          17       about that.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  You're the team leader.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  You see nothing that justifies a shooting, and you

          22       certainly don't see a gun that might have posed

          23       a threat, do you?

          24   A.  No, I don't.

          25   Q.  No.  You must have, at the scene, begun to get a little


                                           164
 

 

 


           1       bit worried about the fact that you were leading a team

           2       that might have shot somebody who perhaps did not

           3       deserve to be shot dead?

           4   A.  No, I completely disagree, sir.

           5   Q.  I see.  Can we move on then.

           6           You saw, I think you're saying, Mr Duggan exit this

           7       minicab.  You actually saw him get out?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  We've been to the scene, that is everybody in this court

          10       room involved in the case, and there's been a minicab

          11       brought to the scene.  I don't know whether that minicab

          12       is downstairs?  It was going to be brought to court.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It is available in the precincts but

          14       it's a little walk away.

          15   MR MANSFIELD:  I am much obliged.  I had looked but I had

          16       not seen it myself.  But anyway it's here; there's

          17       a yard out the back here.

          18           Have you examined this vehicle, or a vehicle of this

          19       kind, yourself?

          20   A.  No, I haven't.

          21   Q.  I want to put to you: it's extremely difficult, this

          22       particular model and design, to exit rapidly from the

          23       left hand passenger door to get onto the pavement.

          24       I will explain why: because the door is well beyond the

          25       seat that is facing the passenger, the two lines of


                                           165
 

 

 


           1       seats, and in order to get out, you almost have to get

           2       off the seat, lean forward -- sorry for the

           3       description -- then pull it back, either with your left

           4       or right arm, and then you've got to, if you're of

           5       a certain height, crouch down and get out between the

           6       door and the seat.  Are you aware of all this?

           7   A.  No, sir, I've not seen the inside of the minicab.

           8   Q.  You haven't.  I know it's impossible now, possibly --

           9       but I have to ask you -- did you notice Mr Duggan going

          10       through that kind of movement in order to get out of

          11       this minicab?

          12   A.  No, sir.

          13   Q.  You didn't.  You obviously were still inside your

          14       vehicle when you saw him coming out?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  We've seen photographs.  You could see down the pavement

          17       from where you were sitting?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  The only obstructions for you, unlike people sitting in

          20       the back of the same vehicle, would be people who were

          21       on the pavement from the car in front of you?

          22   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          23   Q.  But at the point he gets out of the minicab, he's just

          24       slightly higher than those on the pavement, for obvious

          25       reasons.  So you see him at that point?


                                           166
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  At that point, you don't see the action of an arm

           3       throwing a gun over a fence, do you?

           4   A.  No, sir.

           5   Q.  No.  So all of this is in your mind as you're walking

           6       forward.  You've seen nothing to justify a shooting, you

           7       don't see a gun, immediately in the vicinity, and you

           8       don't, as it were, see one having been thrown over

           9       a fence or anything like that.  You must have been

          10       getting a little bit worried about what had happened

          11       here, weren't you?

          12   A.  No, sir, I wasn't.

          13   Q.  No?  Were questions going through your mind at all about

          14       this situation?

          15   A.  In what way, sir?

          16   Q.  Well, the first thing might be, as I started with; you

          17       might want to know where the gun is.  Because if you

          18       trust your officers that they've only shot because they

          19       had to, all right -- I'm summarising your approach to

          20       this -- and you haven't seen anything to justify, you

          21       haven't seen the gun; you must be saying, "Where on

          22       earth is the gun?"

          23   A.  My concern at that stage was for W42 and Mr Duggan and

          24       the first aid on them.

          25   Q.  Yes.  I understand that.


                                           167
 

 

 


           1   A.  Secondary was finding the gun.

           2   Q.  Yes.  I appreciate you put life first, I appreciate

           3       that.  But pretty soon after, and you're used to dealing

           4       with rapidly moving situations, aren't you?  Is that

           5       right?

           6   A.  Yes, I am.

           7   Q.  Is that fair?  Some of us might be so traumatised we

           8       would only think of one thing at a time, but in your

           9       sort of case you're used to having to think of several

          10       things at the same time, aren't you?

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  So you've got officers looking after those who might

          13       either be dead or seriously injured, but then there's

          14       the weapon.  You have to make sure there isn't a weapon

          15       with a live round in it still hanging about, don't you?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  So did you look for it yourself?

          18   A.  No, I did not.

          19   Q.  No.  Who was it who made you aware that there wasn't one

          20       that they could find?

          21   A.  I don't recall who it was.  Someone said, "Where's the

          22       gun?".

          23   Q.  There's a limited number of officers there, so I would

          24       like you to help if you could.  Is it one of the

          25       officers dealing with the first aid, as it were?


                                           168
 

 

 


           1   A.  I'm afraid I don't know, sir.

           2   Q.  All right.  So somebody says "Where's the gun", and

           3       you've been asked this in another way, but did you say,

           4       "Well, we'd better look in the minicab"?

           5   A.  No, I tasked R31 with looking for the gun.

           6   Q.  Yes, yes.  Sorry, did you say to somebody, "Well I think

           7       we'd better look in the minicab"?

           8   A.  No, I did not.

           9   Q.  You didn't think about that?

          10   A.  No.  I asked R31 to look for the gun.

          11   Q.  I'm going to come to R31 looking for the gun.  I want to

          12       just freeze frame the situation for a moment, if you

          13       wouldn't mind, I appreciate it only takes seconds.  But

          14       training?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  We saw in that video that's been shown here that the

          17       officers go to the car that's stopped and open the boot

          18       and you explained that.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Do you follow?  Now, are officers given training in

          21       relation to -- since it's a firearms incident they're

          22       probably dealing with -- protocol or guideline about the

          23       recovery of weapons from the scene?

          24   A.  Yes.  We leave all that to the investigating ... team.

          25   Q.  So you don't have to look for a gun?


                                           169
 

 

 


           1   A.  Our role is to detain the subjects and remove the

           2       firearm.

           3   Q.  So you don't have to look for a firearm?

           4   A.  We don't have to look.  However, it is very helpful to

           5       secure the firearm and secure the scene.

           6   Q.  Really the scene is not for you, once you've detained

           7       it; it's for the people coming up behind, as it were.

           8       Is that right?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Yes.  You had plenty of back-up that day, didn't you?

          11   A.  Yes, we did.

          12   Q.  Why did you want someone to go and look for the gun?

          13   A.  Because there was a gun outstanding.

          14   Q.  R31, as we've seen, he's the yellow arrow.  I just want

          15       that stretch of film, if you wouldn't mind.  I tried to

          16       note the time.  Perhaps it could be started at 5.02 --

          17       sorry, this is the digitalised bit.  It started at 5.02

          18       and could it run through to 7.45 approximately.  I may

          19       have to ask you to look at it more than once because

          20       I appreciate it's a bit complicated to follow.  Could

          21       you just follow it carefully as it goes through.  You're

          22       the, in case you've wondered, purple arrow when it comes

          23       up.

          24               (Video footage was played and ended)

          25           Thank you.  Now, before today, have you been able to


                                           170
 

 

 


           1       watch that sequence?  You have?

           2   A.  Yes, I have.

           3   Q.  So I am not taking you by surprise.  There are a number

           4       of facets, and obviously if you want to see it yet

           5       again, with the Coroner's permission, show sections of

           6       it ...

           7           First of all, we've got an end position there, at

           8       7.46.20, where you and R31 are on the grass, are you

           9       not?

          10   A.  Yes, we are.

          11   Q.  Yes.  Is this when he tells you he's found the gun?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  It is?

          14   A.  I believe so, yes.

          15   Q.  Could we go back then, just a fraction -- sorry, it'll

          16       be from about 7.23 onwards, please, sorry.

          17           (Video footage was played to the court).

          18           I want you to keep an eye on Z51 -- blue, sorry.

          19       Yes, he's the blue one.

          20           He's been on the grass, he's just come off, you come

          21       down.  Pause.

          22                    (The video footage ended)

          23           Did Z51 say, "Ooo, I've just found a gun"?

          24   A.  No, sir.

          25   Q.  No.  All right.  So just play it on.


                                           171
 

 

 


           1             (Video footage was played to the court)

           2           You then go onto the grass and apparently R31 says

           3       he's found the gun.

           4                    (The video footage ended)

           5           Is that right?

           6   A.  That's correct, yes.

           7   Q.  At no time does Z51, who's your Tactical Firearms

           8       Commander, tell you -- at no time -- that he found the

           9       gun?

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  That he's ordered that it should be covered in some way

          12       or whatever?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  No.  I don't want to take time running it back if you

          15       can remember this.  There's a section here too when you

          16       go across, with the man in the white shirt, to a police

          17       car.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Which then travels round, and we can see -- if you want

          20       to see it, we can see it; he travels round to the road

          21       beyond the green.  Do you follow?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  What was all that about?

          24   A.  As I mentioned earlier, there was a group of people

          25       there and I was concerned about the scene becoming


                                           172
 

 

 


           1       contaminated.  There was an armed response vehicle that

           2       had arrived to assist.

           3   Q.  I ask you this in the light of what somebody may say

           4       later.  Did you order, or ensure, that anybody taking

           5       film would be removed or pushed back or anything like

           6       that?

           7   A.  No.

           8   Q.  You just wanted people not to contaminate the scene?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are here pointing at something,

          11       aren't you, further up, at that stage?

          12   A.  I think -- I cannot honestly say what I was doing so

          13       I would imagine I'm talking about a cordon at the top of

          14       the road there.  I don't know for sure.

          15   MR MANSFIELD:  The person you're with in the white shirt,

          16       have you been asked about this?  We had better have this

          17       section so you can see it.

          18           Again, from 5.02 onwards, back to that position.

          19       5.02, which is where we started.  You see the man in the

          20       white shirt, before we run it; you see he's got a white

          21       arrow?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  The yellow arrow is over R31.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Just follow the white arrow, if you wouldn't mind,


                                           173
 

 

 


           1       because I'm going to ask you if you can help us as to

           2       who he is.

           3             (Video footage was played to the court)

           4           Because in a moment you're going to be talking to

           5       him, I don't know whether it's arrowed or not, I can

           6       give the time, it's 5.52 -- sorry, it's a bit later.

           7           The white shirt is with R31 and then you are moving.

           8       Can we just hold it there for a second?

           9                    (The video footage ended)

          10           There's all three of you.  Take it in stages.  First

          11       of all, the man in the white shirt, who is he?

          12   A.  I believe that's Q63.

          13   Q.  Q63.  What's he doing?

          14   A.  (Pause)

          15           I don't know, sir.

          16   Q.  Are all three of you at this stage getting particularly

          17       concerned about the absence of a gun?

          18   A.  No, sir.

          19   Q.  No?  I know it may be perhaps too long again but,

          20       I mean, do you know what you were all talking about?

          21   A.  I'm afraid I don't, sir, no.

          22   Q.  You don't know?

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  I want to ask about cameras.  There were obviously

          25       cameras amongst the team as you went to the scene.


                                           174
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  You had a still camera --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- and a movie camera?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  I ask: is there a procedure in the sense that is there

           7       a standard procedure for not just filming the scene

           8       after a shooting but filming the scene before the

           9       shooting, in other words actually filming the incident?

          10   A.  No, there's not, no.

          11   Q.  But that does happen?

          12   A.  Not that I'm aware of, sir, no.

          13   Q.  Not that you're aware of.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There are other police officers that

          15       wear cameras?

          16   A.  There's no armed officers that I'm aware of, sir.

          17       I believe there are TV programmes where they wear

          18       cameras but none of our teams wear cameras.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am talking about real life.  You

          20       don't wear cameras at any stage on any of these

          21       operations?

          22   A.  We don't.

          23   MR MANSFIELD:  We know the first aid, there's stills and

          24       moving film of that.

          25   A.  Yes, there was.


                                           175
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Is there a person who is designated in advance to use

           2       a camera?

           3   A.  No, sir.

           4   Q.  Well, who has the camera?

           5   A.  It's in the rear of the Bravo vehicle.

           6   Q.  Well, if it's going to be used, who says, look, use the

           7       camera; is it you or someone else?

           8   A.  I believe I directed Q63 to video the first aid, yes.

           9   Q.  Two things: do you remember when you did that?

          10   A.  At some point directly after the stop.  I don't remember

          11       when.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He's not doing it now, is he?

          13   A.  No, he's not, no.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There's no camera work on the ground

          15       by any of your time at this stage.

          16   A.  No, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Any reason why not?

          18   A.  I think we were perhaps just dealing with what we had in

          19       front of us.  Maybe I was asking him then to get the

          20       camera out, I don't know, sir.

          21   MR MANSFIELD:  Well, there may be all sorts of reasons, I'm

          22       not asking for it to be shown at this point at all but

          23       why did you want the first aid filmed?

          24   A.  Just to show that we made the best efforts we can to

          25       save Mr Duggan's life.


                                           176
 

 

 


           1   Q.  No other reasons than that?

           2   A.  No, sir.

           3   Q.  Did you say, knowing there's a camera there, to anyone

           4       "Look, I think we had better have a moving film of where

           5       the gun is"?

           6   A.  Not that I recall, no.

           7   Q.  Why not?

           8   A.  Because the gun had been found, I believe, and I was

           9       concerned over videoing the first aid.

          10   Q.  Right.  I want to ask you whether before this whole --

          11       this sequence you've just seen -- whether you noticed

          12       what Q63 was doing before this section?

          13   A.  No, I'm afraid I don't.

          14   Q.  Have you been shown a bit of this film?

          15   A.  Yes, I'm not sure if it's before or after this section.

          16   Q.  It's before this.  I'd like you to see -- I have it down

          17       at 4.30 up to 4.59.  So it's just before all of this.

          18       So just look at this section, please.

          19        (Video footage was played to the court and ended)

          20           Thank you.  A couple of questions on this.  You have

          21       seen this stretch before?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  You have?  Were you asked to deal with it?  In other

          24       words, were you asked any questions about it which you

          25       might like to record or anything?


                                           177
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I wasn't.

           2   Q.  Why did you think you were watching it?

           3   A.  It's -- I watched the whole video as one thing.

           4   Q.  All right.  Now, you've seen this particular section, it

           5       appears that the same white shirt, Q63 -- I'll tread

           6       carefully in case there's something else -- appears to

           7       be Q63, the same white shirt, is disappearing below the

           8       roof level of the minicab on the pavement side and

           9       appears -- I put it like that for the moment -- to be

          10       examining the minicab in some way.  Did you see any of

          11       that?

          12   A.  No, sir.

          13   Q.  If you'd seen it that might have struck you as a bit odd

          14       because it's possibly contaminating a crime scene?

          15   A.  Possibly, yes.

          16   Q.  If you had seen it, would you have stopped it or asked

          17       him anything?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  So you didn't see it and you are not arrowed on this,

          20       I'm not suggesting you necessarily should have been.

          21       But if you could just watch it again once more, the same

          22       section, it's quite sure, 4.30 through to 4.59, please.

          23       The question is this: where are you?

          24   A.  I've already -- just stop it, I'm down by the control

          25       vehicle, I believe I'm -- the control vehicle with Z51.


                                           178
 

 

 


           1       When you played it through last time I saw.

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  We'll let it run it for the moment.

           3             (Video footage was played to the court)

           4   A.  That's me walking towards it now.

           5   Q.  That'll do, yes, thank you very much.

           6                    (The video footage ended)

           7           It's probably my fault I missed it, but you say you

           8       are on this section?

           9   A.  Yes, I'm by the Discovery, the last vehicle there.

          10   Q.  The control vehicle, we know, is by the bus shelter?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  You're out of the vehicle by now.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Yes.  So you're one of the people on the pavement.  What

          15       were you wearing?

          16   A.  I had a blue t-shirt and a pair of jeans on.

          17   Q.  Right.  So I don't know whether it's going to be

          18       possible, now he's identified, for an arrow to be added

          19       to this -- I see heads are shaking.  You've tried.  I'm

          20       not sure whether that is difficult to put on.

          21           Anyway, I think because, you know, weeks may go by

          22       and we may all forget, me mostly, which of these figures

          23       you are pointing to near the control, are you?  Is it

          24       possible for an arrow to come on screen by the gentleman

          25       in front of me who's very accomplished at this, so you


                                           179
 

 

 


           1       can then say "No, it's not that one, it's another one".

           2   A.  Yes.  (Pause)

           3   Q.  I think a cursor or something is coming up on screen.

           4           (Video footage still was shown to the court)

           5   MR MANSFIELD:  My learned friend in front is going to mark

           6       it with a cross when you say which one it is, as the --

           7   A.  Is it possible just to play it through slightly because

           8       I can tell more from my walk rather than just a dark

           9       image there, please.

          10   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes, of course.

          11   A.  Thank you.

          12        (Video footage was played to the court and ended)

          13   A.  Could you stop it there, please.  I'm the figure between

          14       the control vehicle and the Charlie vehicle, I think.

          15   MR MANSFIELD:  Striding, can I put it that way?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The one between the control and the

          18       Charlie vehicle, not the one that's striding in front.

          19   A.  That's right, the second one of the two.

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  I don't know whether --

          21   A.  I think.

          22   MR MANSFIELD:  I think a cross is going to appear and then

          23       you can tell us whether that figure is right.

          24           I wonder if it might save time if overnight the

          25       exercise could be carried out carefully with him --


                                           180
 

 

 


           1       I don't mind him being spoken to, unless you do

           2       yourself, so that we can place him precisely so he feels

           3       happy that it is him; is that possible?

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sure we can do something to go

           5       on from here.  You particularly want him to be able to

           6       identify himself, as I believe he now has, really, on

           7       that.

           8   MR MANSFIELD:  Well, either in the few minutes remaining --

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He's obviously going to be here

          10       giving evidence for a little time tomorrow.  It may

          11       be --

          12           Let's break at this point, V59, I'm sure you would

          13       welcome that in the event.  In a moment I'll be asking

          14       you to come back at 10.30 to press on and continue with

          15       your evidence.

          16           Thank you, members of the jury, for your

          17       concentration this afternoon.  I'll ask for the cameras

          18       to be turned off, please, and if you would like to now

          19       leave us and be ready for 10.30 start tomorrow morning,

          20       please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                           181
 

 

 


          22   (4.26 pm)

          23       (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Wednesday,

          24                         9 October 2013)

          25
               Housekeeping .........................................1

             

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


184
 

 

 


           1
               MR KEVIN HUTCHINSON-FOSTER ...........................2
           2             (affirmed)

           3       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................3

           4       Questions by MR STRAW ...........................10

           5       Questions by MR STERN ...........................13

           6       Questions by MR KEITH ...........................66

           7       Further questions by MR STRAW ...................79

           8       Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ............80

           9   DS PAUL DEMPSEY (ZZ42) (sworn) ......................87

          10       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................87

          11       Questions by MR MANSFIELD .......................90

          12   V59 (sworn) .........................................92

          13       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................92

          14       Questions by MR MANSFIELD ......................155

          15

          16

          17

          18

          19

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                           185