Transcript of the Hearing 4 December 2013

 

           1                                     Wednesday, 4 December 2013

           2   (2.00 pm)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (2.05 pm)


                                             1

          23   (2.25 pm)

          24                         (A short break)

          25   (2.38 pm)


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           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we are in proper formation

           2       so I will ask for the cameras to be turned off and for

           3       the jury to come into court.

           4                  (In the presence of the jury)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much then, members of

           6       the jury, we're all in and the cameras may now go back

           7       on.

           8           Mr Underwood, who is the witness to be called now?

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  A further anonymised witness, who we're

          10       calling Witness C.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, we'll ask for Witness C to

          12       come into court.

          13           I think this evidence, members of the jury, will

          14       touch on the last document we put in the jury bundle

          15       yesterday afternoon behind divider 36.

          16                       WITNESS C (affirmed)

          17                   (The witness was anonymised)

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you would

          19       like to come and have a seat firstly.  Make sure you are

          20       comfortable and that we can hear you in front of the

          21       microphone.

          22           Mr Underwood, perhaps, you will like to take over.

          23                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon.

          25   A.  Good afternoon.


                                            17
 

 

 


           1   Q.  As you know, my name's Underwood and I'm counsel to the

           2       Inquest.  I think you also know that, for the purposes

           3       of this, we're calling you Witness C?

           4   A.  That's right.

           5   Q.  I hope that Ms Day has a piece of paper with your name

           6       on it.  Can I just ask you to look at that and say

           7       whether that's true?

           8   A.  It certainly is, yes.

           9   Q.  Thank you.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  May I have that for court records.

          11       (Handed)

          12           Thank you very much.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  I want to ask you about the dealings that you

          14       had with witnesses who we're calling Witness A and

          15       Witness B.

          16   A.  Okay.

          17   Q.  Do you know who we mean by that?

          18   A.  I certainly do, yes.

          19   Q.  Did you have meetings with them in April 2012?

          20   A.  That is right.

          21   Q.  Did you make notes of those meetings and subsequently of

          22       those meetings?

          23   A.  Yes, I did.

          24   Q.  Can we have a look briefly at page CD33640 coming up on

          25       the screen.  It's the first page of the bundle of notes


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           1       we have.  Is this the front page of that clip of notes?

           2   A.  Yes, it is.

           3   Q.  I see that you have a notebook there, is that the

           4       original?

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have the redacted version in

           6       front of you but you also have your original notebook

           7       which is unredacted?

           8   A.  That's right, sir.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  I know that you have very kindly given

          10       a witness statement this morning, so you are aware that

          11       issues have arisen about precisely what was said during

          12       the course of those discussions.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  So can I ask you, first of all, was the first meeting

          15       12 April 2012?

          16   A.  That's right.

          17   Q.  Both Witness A and Witness B were there; is that right?

          18   A.  That's right.

          19   Q.  Were other journalists there from the BBC?

          20   A.  There were two other journalists.

          21   Q.  What was the purpose of the meeting?

          22   A.  The purpose of the meeting was to talk to the two

          23       individuals and to try and find out what happened on

          24       that particular day.

          25   Q.  Were you investigating the incident for your


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           1       journalistic purposes?

           2   A.  Yes, I was.

           3   Q.  Had you been doing that for some while?

           4   A.  In total, I had only been working on it for a short time

           5       before I actually met them.

           6   Q.  Were you aware that a gun had been found at the scene?

           7   A.  I had heard -- yes, I'd heard and read about various

           8       accounts about a gun.

           9   Q.  Were you aware that the gun had been found the other

          10       side of the railings from the pavement?

          11   A.  (Pause)

          12           I cannot be certain.

          13   Q.  Was your approach to these witnesses, as it were,

          14       a blank sheet of paper: you were just interested in what

          15       they had to say, or were you putting things to them or

          16       what?

          17   A.  It was really a blank sheet of paper.  We were putting

          18       questions to them to try and find out what their

          19       accounts were.

          20   Q.  So if we can just work out what the dynamics of this

          21       were, how many of you were there precisely?

          22   A.  There was a total of five individuals, including

          23       Witness A and Witness B.

          24   Q.  Who was doing the questioning?

          25   A.  All three journalists, including myself, were putting


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           1       questions to the individuals.

           2   Q.  Were you the only one taking notes?

           3   A.  I was taking notes.

           4   Q.  Were either of these interviews recorded?

           5   A.  The interviews were not recorded.

           6   Q.  When you approached witnesses A and B, what did you

           7       think they had to say before they said it?  Did you

           8       know -- sorry, I will put that another way.

           9           Did you think that they had seen the incident?

          10   A.  I thought there was a very strong possibility that they

          11       had seen the incident.

          12   Q.  How did the -- I call it an interview -- how did the

          13       discussion start?

          14   A.  We met at -- I met the individuals at a train station,

          15       took them back to the BBC's Television Centre, we sat

          16       round a table in a small cafe away from everybody else

          17       and myself and my colleague started talking to them and

          18       putting various questions to them.

          19   Q.  Could you help us with the tenor of those questions?

          20   A.  It's more so taking it right from the start, when

          21       Witness B had obviously started recording events.  It

          22       was taking it from the moment that, you know, he heard

          23       or was alerted or he went to the window.

          24   Q.  What did he say?

          25   A.  What happened was -- is that Witness A said to me that


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           1       she had heard two shots.  Witness B then interrupted and

           2       he said that he had heard "Put it down".  Witness A then

           3       said to me and to my colleagues that the windows were

           4       wide open and then Witness A talked about that they

           5       shared a student flat on the 9th floor.

           6           You have to remember that both of them were talking

           7       at the same time, they were cutting into each other's

           8       conversations.

           9           Witness B then said to me that he had heard the

          10       screeching of car tyres, he saw a Land Rover and a black

          11       car and he thought it was a MI5 operation.

          12   Q.  You have used the words "Put it down".  Now, those words

          13       or that phrase repeats itself a few times in your notes.

          14   A.  Yes, it does.

          15   Q.  Was that the only phrase he used in relation to what

          16       he'd heard?

          17   A.  Would it be okay to actually go through my notes because

          18       you know, for example, that conversation carried on

          19       a little bit.  Is that okay?

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.

          22   A.  Then Witness B said to me -- after he said that he

          23       thought it was a MI5 operation, Witness B said that he

          24       put his head out of the window and started recording

          25       footage of what was happening down below on the street.


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           1       Witness B then said that he had heard the screeching of

           2       car tyres, heard the words "Put it down, put it down!"

           3       then I interrupted and said "Look, I would like you to

           4       give me a sequence of events, so bullet points, as you

           5       will see in my notes.  So you will see the title

           6       "Sequence", and then there will be six points, I would

           7       say.

           8           Would you like me to take you through that?

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Please do.

          10   A.  So I asked him for bullet points to describe the

          11       sequence of events.  He said "Screeching of the car

          12       tyres, to the window".  Witness B goes to the window and

          13       starts recording approximately eight minutes of footage

          14       on his BlackBerry.  He said "Mark Duggan's body language

          15       was", and he actually described it.  He used the term

          16       "What's up?" and then from what I remember of that

          17       conversation he put his hands up like that (indicates).

          18   Q.  So for the benefit of people who can't see you, what you

          19       have just done?

          20   A.  I have raised my arms and my fingers are, I suppose,

          21       parallel to my shoulders (indicates) and Witness B

          22       said -- he claimed that Mark Duggan's body language was

          23       "What's up?" (indicates) and that was directed at the

          24       police officers.

          25           Witness B then said to me and to my colleagues that


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           1       Mr Duggan had a BlackBerry.  He then carried on --

           2       I drew -- I cannot remember whether it was myself or he,

           3       we drew a little road which you will see on my notes,

           4       it's like a --

           5   Q.  If we look at CD33641, it comes up on the screen now.

           6   A.  That's right.  I'm terrible at drawings but that's meant

           7       to be Ferry Lane.  It was just to sort of pinpoint what

           8       he was actually looking at.  After we drew that, he used

           9       the words -- he said: "It was an execution!"

          10   Q.  Did you have any discussion about whether he should go

          11       to the police?

          12   A.  I know in the meetings that we had with Witness B, that

          13       my colleagues had raised it and very directly with

          14       Witness B, saying -- and from what I remember -- that,

          15       you know, the police would really -- really would want

          16       to talk to him and possibly even IPCC as well.  So, yes.

          17   Q.  What was his reaction?

          18   A.  He said he had no trust towards the police.  He talked

          19       about events, and there are some notes that I've made,

          20       you know previously, but he talked about that he had no

          21       trust towards the police and that he would not go to the

          22       police.

          23   Q.  Did you have the impression that his lack of trust in

          24       the police pre-dated this incident?

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  Again, you have discussed the IPCC as a place to go as

           2       well, did you?

           3   A.  My colleague certainly did, yes.

           4   Q.  Did he give any reasons why he wouldn't do that?

           5   A.  It was a trust factor, once again.  He had no trust.

           6   Q.  Did you leave it there or did you carry on with that

           7       discussion with him?

           8   A.  I carried on the conversation.  He gave me a sequence of

           9       events, which I have just described to you.  I asked him

          10       once again to tell me again, "Give me that sequence of

          11       events", and he repeated it.

          12   Q.  Journalistically, what's the purpose of getting somebody

          13       to do it twice?

          14   A.  I think in our trade, in our profession, you always want

          15       somebody to be certain, you want to be certain as well,

          16       you want to hear it as many times as possible.

          17   Q.  Were you satisfied that he repeated his account or were

          18       there differences?

          19   A.  He said to me once again, "Screeching, to the window",

          20       Witness B said -- he started recording footage, after

          21       the shooting on his BlackBerry, that he ran to the

          22       kitchen to get a better view but from the bedroom he

          23       said that he saw, in between the car and the railings --

          24       he said that he heard shots, he heard very loud shots,

          25       and he saw Mark Duggan fall.


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           1           He once again repeated -- he said to me "Mr Duggan

           2       said something along the lines of what's going on?"

           3       (indicates) and once again, from what I remember, he

           4       raised his hands up (indicates) and he said that Mark

           5       Duggan had raised his hands towards the police.

           6   Q.  Both times you have done that, you have had the back of

           7       your hand facing forward; is that an accurate

           8       representation of what --

           9   A.  I would not -- I would say no.  I can't remember whether

          10       the palms were towards him -- I cannot remember that

          11       specifically.

          12   Q.  Did he repeat the "Put it down, put it down!" phrase?

          13   A.  He repeated it once.  He said that when Mr Duggan got

          14       out of the car he said "What's going on?" (indicates)

          15       and then he said that he heard "Put it down!"

          16   Q.  Did he say anything about the phone going flying?

          17   A.  (Nods).  The conversation carried on.  Then he gave,

          18       like, short sort of brief points.  He said:

          19           "Split second, then fire, two shots, the phone went

          20       flying."

          21   Q.  Can you recall any more about that?

          22   A.  No, sorry.

          23   Q.  All right.  How accurately do you think your recording

          24       of the actual words is?

          25   A.  I was paying a lot of attention to him and I would say


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           1       that my colleagues, my two other colleagues at the BBC,

           2       were posing more questions and I was there with the

           3       notebook and the pen.  So I feel that I am accurate.

           4   Q.  How long had you been a journalist by the time you did

           5       this?

           6   A.  23 years.

           7   Q.  All that time with the BBC?

           8   A.  Up until today 22 years with the BBC, so it would have

           9       been 21 years up until that point with the BBC.

          10   Q.  Presumably this was not the first time you had had to

          11       make a contemporaneous record of a discussion with

          12       a potential witness, was it?

          13   A.  We have had to make quite a lot of notes over many

          14       years.

          15   Q.  Then I think you've been asked today to have a look at

          16       the notes on page CD33647 and help about the order of

          17       those.  I have a number 3 at the top, if that helps?

          18   A.  That's right, yes.

          19   Q.  Can you assist on that?

          20   A.  Yes, I've got my notebook here, thank you.

          21   Q.  Please.  Is that a note from the same meeting?

          22   A.  This was a note -- what you're seeing on the screen at

          23       the moment, with the title "Phone always in hand", was

          24       from the second meeting which I had with Witness B.

          25   Q.  Now, we've got, on our page CD33645, at the bottom,


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           1       somebody has written:

           2           "... notes of conversation with Witness B.  Undated

           3       but think 24/4/12".

           4           Can you help about the date of the second

           5       discussion?

           6   A.  Yes, I didn't date it at the time.  But then, through

           7       looking back at a sequence of events, I feel I'm hoping

           8       I'm accurate about the actual date, and I said that that

           9       conversation which I recorded in my notebook would have

          10       been from Tuesday, 24 April.

          11   Q.  So 12 days after the first conversation then?

          12   A.  That's right.

          13   Q.  Where was it?

          14   A.  This was in the streets of north London.

          15   Q.  Who was present then?

          16   A.  It was myself, a BBC colleague and Witness B.

          17   Q.  Again, did you take the notes?

          18   A.  What happened was -- is that, because of the nature of

          19       the meeting, we'd agreed to meet for a specific purpose,

          20       and that was to basically dub the footage off again that

          21       he had on the BlackBerry.  It wasn't in the sort of

          22       comfortable sort of situation of Television Centre, so

          23       what I did was -- you know, we spoke to him, but the

          24       bulk of the time was spent transferring over the footage

          25       onto a BBC laptop.  But then my colleague was putting,


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           1       you know, questions to him and we were talking to him.

           2   Q.  Help us with the purpose of that discussion.  Was this

           3       testing out his recollection or was it trying to get

           4       more information or what?

           5   A.  It was both.  It was to get more information, but then,

           6       once again, as a journalist, you're always trying to

           7       find out, you know, has that individual missed anything,

           8       is there possibly something that doesn't match.

           9   Q.  So you made the notes up after the meeting then?

          10   A.  I did, while I was walking back to the Tube station.

          11   Q.  Still fresh in your mind?

          12   A.  Still relatively fresh.  The difficulty was that we had

          13       had the meeting and, in a sense, I didn't want to scare

          14       the individual but by, you know, pulling out my notebook

          15       again, so I made the notes on my way back to the Tube

          16       station.

          17   Q.  So, does this set of notes then start at what we have as

          18       CD33645.

          19   A.  That's right.

          20   Q.  If we look at CD33646, can you run us through, with the

          21       aid of your notes and your recollection, how the

          22       discussion went?

          23   A.  So, we met, the three of us were talking, so myself, my

          24       colleague from the BBC, together with Witness B.

          25           Witness B said that he was positive that Mr Duggan


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           1       had a BlackBerry.  It was shiny, he said.  He said

           2       Mr Duggan was in between the car and the railings on

           3       Ferry Lane.  He said that he was facing Blackhorse Road.

           4       Once again, he repeated this expression.  He said to me

           5       that Mr Duggan said "What's going on?" (indicates).

           6       I remember him on at least a couple of occasions raising

           7       his arms as well -- this is Witness B.

           8           He said Mr Duggan appeared confused.  Witness B said

           9       the phone was in Mr Duggan's right hand.  I'm sorry,

          10       I wrote "on the grass side" but I can't remember

          11       specifically about those particular points, you know,

          12       whether -- so I wouldn't want to go into great detail

          13       about that because I wouldn't want to mislead.

          14   Q.  Could that have been connected with whatever it was in

          15       his hand spinning away and ending up on the grass?

          16   A.  I wouldn't want to say.

          17   Q.  Then the next line:

          18           "He spun away."

          19   A.  He said to me -- just before that, he said that

          20       Mr Duggan never reached into his pocket and then

          21       Witness B said to me, "he spun away, he never ran away".

          22   Q.  Did he give any description or amplification of what he

          23       meant by "spun away"?

          24   A.  I am so sorry, I don't remember.

          25   Q.  Then if we -- this continues over on CD33647 where


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           1       there's a reference, a second reference, to the IPCC in

           2       this conversation.  Did you revisit the question of him

           3       going to the IPCC with this?

           4   A.  Once again, my colleague said to him, on quite a few

           5       occasions, he should go to the IPCC.  So even in that

           6       conversation, on the streets of north London, possibly

           7       on the Tuesday, 24 April, I made two notes there, one

           8       saying, you know, obviously my colleague had said to him

           9       again "You should speak to the IPCC", and I remember,

          10       you know, we mentioned it again, and probably at least

          11       three times that he should.

          12   Q.  Can you recall his reaction to that?

          13   A.  He would not go.  He would not go to -- he did not want

          14       to go to the police and he did not want to go to the

          15       IPCC and I sensed that he was very scared.

          16   Q.  Could you work out who he was scared of?

          17   A.  He was scared of the police.

          18   Q.  Then can we look on this page, 647, you've got -- is

          19       that an asterisk against "Phone always in hand"?

          20   A.  Yes.  Sometimes I do that to emphasise a point and,

          21       because of the way he obviously said something, I put

          22       that there.

          23   Q.  Then we get the next line, can you help us with that?

          24   A.  I believe -- this is -- and I'm going to be straight

          25       with you here -- the difficulty is that normally I'm


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       very good with my notes, but with this one, I think --

           2       and I'm saying "I think" -- I believe that for a moment

           3       he may have initially thought it was a gun, but then he

           4       said it was shiny and he used the expression "shiny"

           5       before and I think on the first occasion, the

           6       face-to-face meeting, he used "BlackBerry shiny" but

           7       then he said because it was shiny, he always seemed to

           8       insist that it was a BlackBerry.  But then the

           9       expression, you know -- there was this further --

          10       there's a few words there as well:

          11           "But read N/papers then thought it was

          12       a BlackBerry."

          13           I've been thinking about this time and time again,

          14       trying to think about what happened.  Was it my

          15       colleague posing a question and saying, you know, "Had

          16       you read the papers, did you read anything, has anything

          17       influenced you", but I cannot be 100 per cent about

          18       those words there from "Initially" to "BlackBerry".

          19   Q.  All right.  A moment ago you used the word "insisting",

          20       he was insisting that it was a BlackBerry and on the

          21       previous page you have him saying that he was positive

          22       it was a BlackBerry.  Did you get the impression that he

          23       was trying to persuade you he was consistent about this?

          24   A.  I do not think he was out to persuade me.  I got

          25       a sense -- you have to remember I only met this


                                            32
 

 

 


           1       individual on two occasions, but spoke to him -- but

           2       I -- he told me as he felt he saw the incident.

           3   Q.  Then you've got the final comment there, again with

           4       an asterisk against it.  Again, does that denote that

           5       you thought it was an important one?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Take us through that, if you would.

           8   A.  This is the asterisk, the final, "If had gun"?

           9   Q.  Please.

          10   A.  I emphasised that point again because of the asterisk

          11       but then he said to me "If he had the gun he would have

          12       aimed it at the police officers".

          13   Q.  Did you get the impression that he was trying to

          14       convince himself that he had got it right about the

          15       BlackBerry, through things like "Well, if he'd got a gun

          16       surely he would have aimed it" or did you think that was

          17       a completely candid comment or what?

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have to be very careful about

          19       asking whether he believed.  "Candid comment" is perhaps

          20       not appropriate.

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  I will not invite an answer to that one.

          22       I'll leave that there.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What were his actual words, as far

          24       as you can remember, prompted by this note?

          25   A.  His actual words with -- his reaction to "If had gun"?


                                            33
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, "if had gun he would have",

           2       whatever the words are -- is it "aimed"?

           3   A.  Sorry, I apologise, "aimed":

           4           "If had gun he would have aimed it at them."

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  You are clear he said that, are you?

           7   A.  I am clear.

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's all I want to ask.  Thank you very

           9       much.  No doubt there will be some more questions.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, thank you very much.

          11           Mr Thomas, you have leapt to your feet.  Any other

          12       questions from Mr Mansfield?  All right.

          13                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          14   MR THOMAS:  Witness C, I represent Mark Duggan's loved ones,

          15       okay?

          16   A.  Okay.

          17   Q.  I have a few questions for you.  Can I ask you, do you

          18       have your witness statement there?

          19   A.  I do, yes.

          20   Q.  Can you turn that up, please.  Two meetings with

          21       witnesses A and B, and that was for the purposes of --

          22       they had contacted the BBC to say that they had this

          23       footage; is that correct?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  So you and your colleagues were meeting them to see the


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       genuineness of what they were saying and to see the

           2       footage; is that right?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Okay.  Now, can I ask you to turn to paragraph 4 of your

           5       witness statement, please.  What we have at paragraph 4

           6       is you telling Witness B, "Look, essentially, I need to

           7       take this down", and you putting it in sequence in

           8       relation to what he was saying to you?

           9   A.  That's right.

          10   Q.  The jury don't have this in front of them, I just want

          11       to go through it with you, okay?

          12   A.  Okay.

          13   Q.  Sorry, just one other matter just before I do that, and

          14       it's this: when Witness B is going through this with

          15       you, you are noting -- this is the first meeting -- you

          16       are noting the sequence and the order of how he's

          17       telling you this; have you understood that correctly?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Can I go through it with you now.  Can we put this up

          20       for the jury, it's CD33641.  Thank you very much,

          21       Mr Scott.

          22           So he says to you "screeching" -- he could hear

          23       screeching -- sorry, another question before that.  You

          24       are not noting this verbatim, are you, you are

          25       highlighting the bullet points; have I understood that


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       correctly?

           2   A.  That's right.

           3   Q.  That's obviously because you don't have time to take

           4       every single word down.

           5   A.  That's right.

           6   Q.  So Witness B is telling you that when he saw Mr Duggan

           7       across the way, the first thing that draws his attention

           8       to this is the screeching of the car tyres?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Then he goes to the window and then you entered -- you

          11       write there about the eight minutes of the length of the

          12       BlackBerry footage?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Then he describes Mark's body language.  Now, he told us

          15       about that yesterday and he described it -- and I want

          16       to ask you about this to see if it's consistent what he

          17       was saying to you -- that Mark got out, he went to run

          18       one way, then he spun round, went another way towards

          19       Blackhorse Road, looking bewildered.  That's the gist of

          20       what he was saying.

          21   A.  Not exactly to me on that occasion.  All he said to me

          22       was he described Mark's -- Mark Duggan's body language

          23       with the gesture with the hands going up --

          24   Q.  Hands up, okay.

          25   A.  -- and he used the phrase "What's up?"


                                            36
 

 

 


           1   Q.  "What's up?" right.  Can we just confirm this: on the

           2       first occasion that you speak to Witness B, he tells you

           3       that Mark Duggan's hands were in the air, both hands up,

           4       as you have demonstrated, before he was shot; is that

           5       correct?

           6   A.  That's what Witness B said.

           7   Q.  Secondly, just looking at your paragraph 4, on the first

           8       occasion that you speak to Witness B, he tells you what

           9       is in the hand?  Have a look at the last bullet point.

          10   A.  Witness B says there was a BlackBerry in his hand.

          11   Q.  You have made a note of that, haven't you?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Nowhere in your notes on that first occasion is there

          14       any mention of "He had a gun in his hand" or something

          15       that appeared to look like a gun; would that be right?

          16   A.  That is right.

          17   Q.  Can you just turn over the page, please.  I am just

          18       looking at your paragraph 5.  May I just read out what

          19       you have there and I want to ask you about it.  You say

          20       this, you say:

          21           "He described Mark Duggan's body language to me and

          22       said that when Mark Duggan got out of the car he

          23       gestured on the police with his hands in the air."

          24           That's what you have just described to us, correct?

          25   A.  That's right.


                                            37
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You said that:

           2           "It was as if he was saying 'What's up?'"

           3           Yes?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Then it's the next sentence that I'm interested in.  Can

           6       you read out what you've got written there?

           7   A.  After "What's up?"

           8   Q.  Yes.

           9   A.  "Witness B said to me that it was an execution."

          10   Q.  Pause there.  Those were his words, were they?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Any doubt about that?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  So, can we just put this in context.  You have this

          15       witness -- does he tell you that he wants to remain

          16       anonymous at this point?

          17   A.  In the context of?

          18   Q.  He doesn't want his identity known.

          19   A.  To who?  To the media if he did interviews?

          20   Q.  Yes, or didn't it come up?

          21   A.  It did not come up.

          22   Q.  All right, because it's the next sentence in paragraph 6

          23       that I'm interested in.  Can you just read that out to

          24       the jury, what you've got in your witness statement?

          25   A.  In paragraph 6?


                                            38
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Yes.

           2   A.  "To the best of my recollection, Witness B then

           3       volunteered that he was reluctant to go to the police."

           4   Q.  He was scared, wasn't he?  Was that your impression?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Can I just ask you one or two things about the second

           7       meeting that you had with Witness B when you were

           8       discussing Mark Duggan?

           9   A.  Okay.

          10   Q.  Now, you say that at this second meeting, for perfectly

          11       understandable reasons, you weren't able to make notes

          12       in the same way as you did at the first meeting.

          13   A.  That's right.

          14   Q.  So you made the notes -- I think you say in paragraph 8

          15       that you make those notes about ten minutes afterwards;

          16       is that fair?

          17   A.  Approximately, yes.

          18   Q.  Can I make this clear, Witness C, I make absolutely no

          19       criticism of the fact and how you were going about your

          20       journalistic duties, but Witness B was not asked to look

          21       over your notes or to sign them, was he?

          22   A.  No.

          23   Q.  The notes that you make on the second occasion, again,

          24       they are notes, they are not verbatim --

          25   A.  That's right.


                                            39
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- would that be fair?

           2   A.  That's right.

           3   Q.  Okay.  Again, can I just take you to paragraph 10 of

           4       your witness statement.  Even on this second occasion,

           5       when you meet Witness B, help the jury: what is he

           6       telling you that Mark Duggan had in his hand?

           7   A.  He said to me that he was positive Mark Duggan had

           8       a BlackBerry and he used the term "shiny".

           9   Q.  He again demonstrates the putting the hands up in the

          10       air, correct?

          11   A.  He used the expression "What's going on?"  That's what

          12       Mark Duggan, he said, said to the police officers.

          13   Q.  You said, if you go over the page to the top of page 5,

          14       you have in there, describing Mr Duggan as looking

          15       confused; is that right?

          16   A.  That's right.

          17   Q.  Then you say this, that Witness B was stressing the fact

          18       to you that Mark Duggan never reached into his pocket;

          19       is that right?

          20   A.  That is what Witness B said.

          21   Q.  Again, I'm just looking at the first line in

          22       paragraph 11, what's he stressing there?  First line,

          23       paragraph 11, what is Witness B again stressing?

          24   A.  He said that Mr Duggan had the phone always in his hand.

          25   Q.  Now, I've nearly finished, this is the final question.


                                            40
 

 

 


           1       I just want to deal with this whole issue about --

           2       sorry, second to last question -- can I just ask you to

           3       look at -- just bear with me.  (Pause)

           4           Can we just call up, please, CD33646.  So it says:

           5           "... phone was in right hand on grass side.

           6           "Never reached in pocket."

           7           If you look in your original notes.

           8   A.  I've got it here.

           9   Q.  I just want to break this down on what Witness B may

          10       have been saying to you.  Witness B is describing to you

          11       Ferry Lane and what he is seeing Mark Duggan doing,

          12       correct?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Just before you have that paragraph -- can we just bring

          15       the page down a little bit so the jury can follow this,

          16       where it says "facing Blackhorse Road-way."

          17           I.wonder if Mr Scott could wiggle the mouse on that.

          18       right, so that line there.  So this is the context.

          19       I don't know if you know the area at all, Witness C?

          20   A.  I do.

          21   Q.  Blackhorse Road is in the opposite direction to

          22       Tottenham Hale Tube station, which would be behind Mark

          23       Duggan, correct?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  This is Witness B's description to you: Mark Duggan is


                                            41
 

 

 


           1       facing towards Blackhorse Road, in other words facing in

           2       the direction where the Land Rover was.  Then you say --

           3       what you describe -- you describe what he's saying,

           4       "What's going on?" the expression is as if he was

           5       confused, we can see that's the next line.  Then it's

           6       the next line:

           7           "Says phone was in right hand -- on the grass side."

           8           Let's pause and think about what's possibly being

           9       said there.  If Mark Duggan -- his right-hand side, yes,

          10       has got the phone in his right-hand side (indicates).

          11       If it's being described to you, that would be the side

          12       nearest to the grass; do you follow, where the railings

          13       are?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Can you assist the jury -- if you can't, say so -- is

          16       that what Witness B was describing to you, that the

          17       phone was in his right hand, on the grass side?

          18   A.  I cannot assist the jury with that "on the grass side".

          19   Q.  Okay, final question.  Again, can you just turn back to

          20       your witness statement, please, and it's the last

          21       paragraph.  It's this mention about the gun.  Witness C,

          22       just help the jury with this: can you recall now,

          23       because I know you are looking at your notes and I know

          24       you are trying your best to help us, but can you recall

          25       who introduced the mention of the gun?  Was it your


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       colleague, was it Witness B?

           2   A.  (Pause)

           3   Q.  If you can't, say so.

           4   A.  I cannot remember.

           5   Q.  So it's quite possible that somebody mentioned the gun

           6       as opposed to Witness B mentioning the gun; that's

           7       possible, isn't it?

           8   A.  I wish I could be certain but I cannot be certain about

           9       that conversation.

          10   Q.  All right.  In any event, regardless of whoever

          11       mentioned the gun, whether it be Witness B or whether it

          12       be a colleague or even yourself, regardless of who it

          13       was, what was Witness B saying to you?  Was he saying

          14       that he believed that Mark Duggan had a gun in his hand?

          15   A.  Ultimately he said that he thought Mr Duggan had

          16       a BlackBerry.

          17   MR THOMAS:  That's all I ask you.  Thank you very much.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you.

          19           Yes, Mr Stern?

          20                      Questions by MR STERN

          21   MR STERN:  Thank you, sir.

          22           Witness C, as I understand it, you are

          23       an investigatory journalist; is that correct?

          24   A.  We do work on a lot of investigations.

          25   Q.  Well, you say "we", I'm asking you about you; you are


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       an investigatory journalist?

           2   A.  I am.

           3   Q.  Obviously, this conversation, or at least the first

           4       conversation you had with Witness B on 12 April, was

           5       eight months after the incident itself.

           6   A.  That's right.

           7   Q.  You have told the jury that, obviously, as

           8       an investigatory journalist, it's very important that

           9       you confirm or seek to obtain certainty in relation to

          10       what it is you're being told.  I think that's what you

          11       said.  I'm paraphrasing what you said, I accept that,

          12       but essentially --

          13   A.  Sorry, could you kindly repeat that?

          14   Q.  Yes, of course.  That you are looking for certainty with

          15       what somebody tells you.

          16   A.  You pose questions and you pose questions again.

          17   Q.  Yes.  Did you check whether Witness B had connections or

          18       was influenced by individuals who may have had

          19       an interest in him providing an account that was adverse

          20       to the police?

          21   A.  I didn't do any checks at all on his background.

          22   Q.  None at all?  Did you go to the 9th floor and see what

          23       an individual might be able to see from the 9th floor?

          24   A.  I did go to that block.

          25   Q.  Did you go to the 9th floor and look out and see what


                                            44
 

 

 


           1       an individual might be able to see?

           2   A.  No.

           3   Q.  You say you went to that block, was that on a different

           4       occasion?

           5   A.  It was on a different occasion.

           6   Q.  Was this you seeing Witness B or was this something

           7       completely different?

           8   A.  This was something completely different.

           9   Q.  Fine.  Did you check to see where it was, from any

          10       source that you might have been able to, where the

          11       BlackBerry was found?  You see, we know that it was

          12       found in the minicab; did you check that?

          13   A.  A fellow journalist had been working on the story and

          14       I had heard accounts.

          15   Q.  Right.  So you became aware of that from, not

          16       necessarily your own enquiries, but somebody else's

          17       enquiries?

          18   A.  That's right.

          19   Q.  Were you also aware, or did you become aware, that the

          20       other phone that Mark Duggan had was found in his jacket

          21       pocket?

          22   A.  I was not aware of that.

          23   Q.  Just the BlackBerry?  Why was it that, as you understood

          24       it, that Witness B was so keen to repeat, on so many

          25       occasions, that what he had seen was a BlackBerry?


                                            45
 

 

 


           1   A.  I asked him for his account, I asked him again for his

           2       account and I asked him once again for his account.  He

           3       was the one that told me it was a BlackBerry.

           4   Q.  Right.  Could we just look at this note that you looked

           5       at just a few moments ago at 33647.  If we look, we can

           6       see there:

           7           "Phone always in hand -- initially thought gun ...

           8       But read N/Papers then thought it was BlackBerry."

           9           Did you think that was of significance?

          10   A.  What he said at the time, is that what you're saying to

          11       me, sorry?  Could you repeat the question?

          12   Q.  It's a very straightforward question.

          13   A.  Could you repeat it?

          14   Q.  Are you looking for some time to find an answer for it?

          15   A.  I am not looking for time, no.  I want to make sure

          16       I give you the right answer.

          17   Q.  The question is straightforward: did you consider it

          18       significant that he initially thought it was a gun?

          19   A.  I did think it was significant but then he insisted once

          20       again that Mr Duggan had a BlackBerry.

          21   Q.  If you look at the bottom of that page, it says:

          22           "If had gun ..."

          23           I presume from what you have told us today, that's

          24       Witness B speaking?

          25   A.  This is Witness B speaking, yes.


                                            46
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Yes.  So he was referring to a gun, was he not,

           2       definitely, at that conversation?

           3   A.  He used the term "gun" and he said if Mr Duggan had

           4       a gun he would have aimed it at them.

           5   Q.  But he only would have mention that if he had said about

           6       a gun earlier.

           7   A.  I would like to be --

           8   MR THOMAS:  Sorry, sir, with greatest respect, there's no

           9       logic in that.  The alternative is that somebody

          10       mentioned a gun to him.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Witness C can look after himself.

          12       You can ask the question.

          13   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What I will need to do, Witness C,

          15       I just want to have a look at the original unredacted --

          16       I'm the only one that's allowed to do that -- because

          17       I want to make sure that -- there's one little bit

          18       that's been blanked over, and I know what the answer is,

          19       but I just want to check that you have the right

          20       identification, so thank you.  (Handed)

          21           Thank you very much.  (Pause)

          22           Right, you can have that back, thank you.  (Handed)

          23   A.  Thank you.

          24   MR STERN:  You had the video footage, did you not, and part

          25       of a transcript of that video footage?


                                            47
 

 

 


           1   A.  This was at the second meeting?

           2   Q.  Don't worry about the meeting.  You had, at one point,

           3       the footage, did you not?

           4   A.  (Pause)

           5           I did have the footage.

           6   Q.  Well, I don't know why you find that difficult.  That's

           7       what -- you had that, did you not, before you had even

           8       met him, didn't you?

           9   A.  Yes, I had.  I came into the story late, so the thing is

          10       I do need dates, et cetera, because this story as

          11       obviously been going on since August.

          12   Q.  Yes.  I'm just taking it from your statement.  But in

          13       any event you had seen this footage and had listened,

          14       presumably, to the footage in relation to what we're

          15       calling VTS 7 to 11, that is to say the Canon footage,

          16       the better copy footage?

          17   A.  Yes, I had.

          18   Q.  So you had heard what he had said "He jumped out", and

          19       then there's a bit that apparently was unintelligible

          20       but may have been more intelligible to you:

          21           "... But then he's taking out something because

          22       I heard him shout 'Put it down, put it down'."

          23           You were aware of that, weren't you?

          24   A.  If it was from the original transcript that was provided

          25       by the BBC, yes, I am.


                                            48
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I have not got the original to hand but I'm sure we can

           2       find that but it certainly had "Put it down, put it

           3       down" and heard him shout that and "taking something

           4       out".

           5   A.  If it was the original BBC transcripts, yes.

           6   Q.  Did you ever ask him, what did you mean by "he was

           7       taking something out"?

           8   A.  I asked him on about three if not four occasions about

           9       the sequence of events.

          10   Q.  Sorry, that's not the question I'm asking you.  Did you

          11       ask him about that specific matter?

          12           I've got the BBC version here, which you had, as

          13       I say, before you met him:

          14           "He's jumped out, and then he's taken out, shot him,

          15       because I heard them shout at him 'Put it down, put it

          16       down'."

          17   A.  Sorry, your question in relation to that is?

          18   Q.  My question is: did you ask him about that, that he's

          19       taken out whatever it is he's taken out and then

          20       "I heard them shout at him 'Put it down put it down'"?

          21   A.  My interpretation at that particular time was "taken

          22       out" was that he was -- Mr Duggan was taken out.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Taken out?

          24   MR STERN:  I see.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He himself was taken out?


                                            49
 

 

 


           1   MR STERN:  That was your interpretation of it, was it?

           2   A.  That Mr Duggan was taken out.

           3   MR STERN:  Right.  So in other words, "He's taken out, shot

           4       him, because I heard them shout at him 'Put it down, put

           5       it down'", that was your reading of it?

           6   A.  Can I have a look at this because I have not seen it for

           7       many months.

           8   MR STERN:  CD29929, it will come up on the screen.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It will come up on the screen.

          10   MR STERN:  I don't know when this footage was prepared and

          11       you will be able to tell us, I presume.  I don't know if

          12       that was prepared before you saw Witness B in April or

          13       not, probably not but --

          14   A.  I do not think it was but I can't be certain.

          15   Q.  No.  All right.  I won't ask you anymore about that.

          16       Can I ask you, in your notes, do we see a reference --

          17       it may be that I've missed it -- to him putting his

          18       hands up?

          19   A.  In my notes, no.  There is no reference to Witness B

          20       putting his hands up (indicates) but it's what

          21       I remember him doing.

          22   Q.  Yes, I understand, and this is what you're recalling

          23       now?

          24   A.  This is what I'm recalling now, yes.

          25   Q.  Can I ask you, was there a meeting on 18 April as well?


                                            50
 

 

 


           1   A.  Sorry, between?

           2   Q.  Well, B, A and "AN Other" from the BBC.  In we look at

           3       33644, if you look up on the screen, you will see it

           4       says 18 April and B and A, and B, according to A, is not

           5       comfortable -- then I cannot read what that word says

           6       but you, I'm sure, will be able to read it:

           7           "Fine though with footage being used with

           8       subtitles -- A says" --

           9   A.  I can actually help you with that.

          10   Q.  If you would.  Is it your writing?

          11   A.  It is my writing, yes.

          12   Q.  Did you have another meeting on 18 April with them?

          13   A.  This was a -- from what I remember, a phone conversation

          14       with Witness A.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What's the actual note say there,

          16       help us?

          17   A.  It says:

          18           "Witness B ..."

          19           According to Witness A, who I was speaking to on the

          20       phone:

          21           "Witness B was not comfortable, Witness B was fine

          22       though with the footage being used with subtitles ..."

          23           Then it says:

          24           "Witness A says morally they are both in two minds

          25       about doing an interview."


                                            51
 

 

 


           1           So this relates to the BBC doing a story,

           2       a television, a radio story, an online story, about the

           3       footage.  So Witness A was saying to me that they were

           4       in two minds and, from what I remember from that

           5       conversation, they wanted the story to come out about

           6       what they claimed they had seen.

           7   Q.  Well, A didn't see anything, did she, or did she?  Did

           8       she tell you that she saw something?

           9   A.  She heard, from what I remember and looking back at my

          10       notes, the two shots.

          11   Q.  Right.  So they were happy to be interviewed, is that

          12       right, or were they in two minds?  They weren't

          13       frightened of being interviewed?

          14   A.  They did not want to do an interview.

          15   Q.  So far as this occasion that you saw them on 12 April is

          16       concerned, and indeed on 24 April, what was the purpose

          17       in getting a version from them if they weren't prepared

          18       to actually go forward with it; what was the purpose in

          19       it?

          20   A.  On 18 April, it appeared that when I spoke to Witness A

          21       that there may be a possibility that Witness A or

          22       possibly Witness B may do an interview because we put it

          23       to them that if they did do an interview there was

          24       a possibility of anonymity and an actor's voice.  We

          25       wanted to do an interview with them and we weren't


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       forceful in our approach towards them.  We knew that

           2       there was possibility, a small possibility, that they

           3       may agree to do an interview, that was why we carried

           4       on.

           5   Q.  Had they been paid by this point?

           6   A.  Paid for?

           7   Q.  Whatever it was you paid them for?

           8   A.  Sorry, are you talking footage or are you talking their

           9       time?

          10   Q.  I don't know, what did you pay them for?

          11   A.  (Pause)

          12           An amount of money was paid for the footage.

          13   Q.  Yes.  That's why I'm asking you.  By this time, had you

          14       paid them the money?

          15   A.  By, sorry, which date?

          16   Q.  Either 12 or 24 April?

          17   A.  By 12 April 2012, money had been paid for the original

          18       footage, which was what I would describe the crystal

          19       clear footage.

          20   Q.  The camera footage, rather than the BlackBerry footage?

          21   A.  That's right.

          22   Q.  They hadn't actually passed over the BlackBerry footage,

          23       I think, at that point, had they?  You can look at your

          24       statement if you want.

          25   A.  What happened was -- is that at the meeting at


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       Television Centre, Witness B mentioned that he had

           2       additional footage, which was -- he thought was the

           3       grainy footage.  He said that I could have it and a sum

           4       of money was paid.

           5   Q.  Right.  So there were two sums of money paid, one for

           6       the initial footage and one for -- what you're calling

           7       the grainy footage, or what he described as the grainy

           8       footage?

           9   A.  That's right.

          10   Q.  Can I ask you just please about this: yesterday,

          11       Witness B was asked what he was worried about by my

          12       learned friend Mr Underwood, who appears, as you know,

          13       for the Inquest and he said:

          14           "Answer: Not worried, just, you know -- it's not

          15       every day you see someone getting shot at in -- you

          16       know, in London, and not only that dying, as well.  I've

          17       never seen anybody being shot and that was the first

          18       time I saw someone getting shot.

          19           "So things like that played on my mind for a bit, as

          20       well, and you have people also talking, a whole bunch of

          21       stuff as well.  So -- yeah.

          22           "Question: What sort of things?

          23           "Answer: About, erm, him being in Tottenham, you

          24       know, all this stuff coming out like, you know -- you

          25       know, gangs and all of that stuff really, so I just


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       didn't want to be bothered with it, that was it."

           2           Did he mention, Witness B, that he was scared of

           3       that or not?

           4   A.  Sorry, you mentioned quite a bit there, scared of gangs

           5       or police or --

           6   Q.  That's essentially what it comes to, yes.

           7   A.  So you asked me whether --

           8   Q.  You said that he was scared of the police but what he

           9       told us yesterday that he was scared of gangs, that's

          10       what he was worried about.

          11   A.  I wouldn't be specific, he talked about his environment,

          12       the environment that he was in, the area that he was in.

          13   Q.  Sorry, you wouldn't be specific or he wasn't specific?

          14   A.  Sorry, I cannot be specific.  He was talking about --

          15       initially, he talked about that he did not have trust

          16       towards the police but he --

          17   Q.  Yes, you have told us that.

          18   A.  -- but also the environment he was in.  He was not

          19       specific about particular individuals or particular

          20       gangs in that area.  He didn't say to me anything

          21       specific about people or gangs, you know, troubling him

          22       or possibly troubling him.  He did mention the police

          23       but he didn't talk about individuals or gangs within the

          24       area.

          25   Q.  He did mention gangs to you?


                                            55
 

 

 


           1   A.  I will be very honest with you, and I cannot remember

           2       specifically whether he mentioned the word "gangs".

           3       There may have been a possibility but I didn't have

           4       anything in my notes and I would not want to mislead the

           5       court.

           6   Q.  No, all right.  Can we just look please then at your

           7       note and try to do it chronologically.  On 12 April,

           8       33640, you have told us that one thing you are clear

           9       about is that Witness B told you from the start, and

          10       through to the end, that the words that he heard were

          11       "Put it down".

          12   A.  On the first occasion on 12 April, he definitely,

          13       according to my notes, said "Put it down, put it down!"

          14   Q.  He interrupted A, didn't he, you told us that?

          15   A.  That's right.

          16   Q.  He never said any words other than "Put it down" were

          17       said, he was categoric about that?

          18   A.  He did repeat -- and I'm so sorry, because I'm going

          19       through my notes while you're talking.  So at that first

          20       meeting on 12 April at BC Television Centre he did

          21       say -- when he interrupted Witness A, he said he heard

          22       the screeching of tyres and "Put it down, put it down",

          23       then once again when I asked him to give me the sequence

          24       of events, again he described Mr Duggan getting out of

          25       the car saying "What's going on?" towards the police


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       officers and then he said the words again that he heard

           2       "Put it down".

           3   Q.  So is the answer to my question yes?

           4   A.  It is, he heard -- he mentioned to me twice.

           5   Q.  Well, it's --

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The question is: did he

           7       categorically say there was nothing else said or is he

           8       just saying that those are the words --

           9   A.  Within this 12 April conversation, he said to me twice

          10       "Put it down".

          11   MR STERN:  Let me read from your statement, it will help

          12       you, paragraph 3, halfway down:

          13           "Witness B repeated to me that he had heard the

          14       screeching of car tyres and had heard the words 'Put it

          15       down, put it down.  I recorded that in my notebook this

          16       appears at page 33640 of Witness B's statement.

          17       Witness B was clear about the words 'Put it down' and

          18       did not tell me or indicate that he was unsure about

          19       this or that he could have heard something else."

          20           That's what you have written.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That is right, is it?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you.

          24   MR STERN:  All right.  Can I just ask you, again

          25       understanding that these are notes, was there


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       an understanding from what you have recorded here, that

           2       what Witness B was telling you was that Mark Duggan had

           3       got out of the minicab and that he had put his -- he had

           4       said something -- "What's going on?"  He had actually

           5       heard him say "What's going on?"

           6   A.  That's what he said to me, yes.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He heard the words "What's going

           8       on?"

           9   A.  I cannot be specific, sir, because in my notes I wrote

          10       down what he told me.  So he said to me the words,

          11       "What's going on?"  So if I've got it here in my notes,

          12       from that meeting, yes, he said that.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is he telling you that's what Mark

          14       Duggan said or that was his expression?

          15   A.  That was what he heard -- that was his -- it was more

          16       his expression, you know: "What's going on?"

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Rather than actual words, or perhaps

          18       it was the actual words.  Try to really remember.

          19       I know you've been put on the spot and yesterday you

          20       weren't expecting to be in court today, but try to help

          21       us with what you can remember back to that meeting.

          22   A.  It was definitely, you know, he -- Witness B described

          23       what he claimed was the moment when Mr Duggan got out

          24       and he said, you know -- he said to me, this is the way

          25       it was (indicates), he described how Mr Duggan moved his


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       hands and he said it was like he was saying "What's

           2       going on?"  That is what I -- what I can remember.

           3   MR STERN:  It's just that you said a moment ago that's what

           4       he told you he had heard.  Maybe you didn't mean to say

           5       that but that's actually what you said just a moment

           6       ago.

           7   A.  It is extremely difficult to remember.  But what I'm

           8       saying to you is that one thing I do remember is that at

           9       that meeting in the foyer, he said to me that Mr Duggan

          10       got out of the car and he did this (indicates) and said

          11       this was as though he was saying "What's going on?" and

          12       he was looking towards the police officers.

          13   Q.  All right.  Let's move on.  So he was telling you that

          14       he had got out of the car, he had done that (indicates),

          15       effectively, either said "What's going on?" or gave the

          16       appearance to Witness B of "What's going on?" facing

          17       towards the officers and then he was shot; is that what

          18       he was saying?  Because you don't seem to have got

          19       actually that sequence there as that.  You see, when

          20       were the hands up, that's the point.  It's not actually

          21       in the sequence, is it, because it's not there?

          22   A.  On the second occasion, at the same meeting --

          23   Q.  Yes, that's 24 April?

          24   A.  My apologies, that's 12 April.

          25   MR STERN:  I beg your pardon.


                                            59
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Second occasion on the same meeting.

           2   A.  What happened was -- is that we were posing questions to

           3       Witness B, so I said to him on the first occasion

           4       "I want you to give me the sequence of events".  So as

           5       you can see from my -- on 12 April 2012, the notes that

           6       I made had the sequence:

           7           "Screeching, to the window, Witness B to the window,

           8       Mark body language said "What's up?" Witness B says it

           9       was a BlackBerry."

          10           Then on the next page in my notes I said to him once

          11       again "Please repeat the sequence of events as you saw

          12       them".  He said:

          13           "Screeching, to the window, Witness B eight minutes

          14       of footage on the BlackBerry after the shooting, ran to

          15       the kitchen for a better view, bedroom saw in between

          16       car and railings, heard the shots, very loud shots, saw

          17       him fall, "What's going on?" was the expression when

          18       Mr Duggan got out of the car."

          19           Then he heard the words "Put it down".

          20   Q.  Yes, that's the point that I'm making.  What's going on,

          21       gets out of the car, "Put it down"?

          22   A.  My apologies for interrupting because then what he did

          23       was -- and it's a continuation in my notebook -- and

          24       then he said to me:

          25           "Split second, then fire, 2 shots, then phone went


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       flying."

           2           That was all part of his second version.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That goes straight on?

           4   A.  That's right.

           5   MR STERN:  So it all took place in a split second?

           6   A.  That's right.

           7   Q.  The words "Put it down" and then in a split second there

           8       were two shots fired and what he described as a phone

           9       went flying.

          10   A.  That's what he said to me.

          11   Q.  Did he ever show you or did you ever ask him where it

          12       was that that phone went flying to?

          13   A.  I did not ask him.

          14   Q.  Yet you were aware that there was an issue, that the gun

          15       had gone over the railings by some means?

          16   A.  I should say I do not recall asking him where that phone

          17       went that he said went flying.

          18   Q.  I see.  If you don't mind me asking, where does the

          19       investigative bit come into the journalism?

          20   A.  (Pause)

          21           I don't know how to respond to that.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm not going to ask you to respond

          23       any further on that.

          24   MR STERN:  Can I ask you, please, to look at 33646.  In the

          25       middle of the page, my learned friend Mr Thomas,


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       I think, just referred you to it:

           2           "B says phone was in right hand -- on the grass

           3       side."

           4           I think Mr Underwood asked you about that as well:

           5           "Never reached in his pocket.  He spun away."

           6           In other words, when he was on -- facing what

           7       Mr Thomas calls Blackhorse -- facing Blackhorse Road

           8       that is to say towards the police officer with the grass

           9       on the right, he spun away; did you understand what that

          10       meant?

          11   A.  He didn't describe the motion.

          12   Q.  He did?

          13   A.  He did not.

          14   Q.  He did not?

          15   A.  He simply said the words "He spun away".

          16   Q.  So you never understood, from anything that he said,

          17       that he had run towards Tottenham Hale station first of

          18       all and then come back?

          19   A.  I never heard that.

          20   Q.  Yesterday, part of Witness B's statement was put before

          21       the jury in this record.  He said:

          22           "Secondly, having subsequently read reports of the

          23       incident online, I am aware that Mark Duggan had been

          24       texting people from the taxi.  This underlines my

          25       feeling that the object in his right hand was a mobile


                                            62
 

 

 


           1       telephone or BlackBerry and not a gun."

           2           Was that something that was actually said to you or

           3       not?

           4   A.  I cannot remember anything said of that nature.

           5   Q.  Right.  Did you ask about whether or not he had

           6       interrogated the Internet in relation to stories or

           7       where he had gleaned all of this information from?

           8   A.  I certainly do not remember that I spoke to him directly

           9       about that.

          10   Q.  Did he ever go to the IPCC?

          11   A.  From what I know, he did not directly go to the IPCC.

          12   Q.  When you say directly, what do you mean?

          13   A.  That he did not go to their offices or contact them

          14       directly.

          15   Q.  As far as you know?

          16   A.  As far as I know.

          17   Q.  So, as we understand it, the BBC has had this

          18       information until yesterday?

          19   A.  Sorry, I apologise, the question was?

          20   Q.  This information, the notes that we have just been

          21       looking at today and yesterday.

          22   A.  The redacted notes?

          23   Q.  Don't worry about redacted or otherwise.  The notes:

          24       this is the first time that we've heard about them, is

          25       that right, or the first time we've seen them?  The BBC


                                            63
 

 

 


           1       has had this information about the conversation in

           2       April 2012 since that date and not given them --

           3   MS GRACE:  Excuse me, sir --

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's all right, we'll let him

           5       answer.  The notebook we have in front of you, that is

           6       your notebook?

           7   A.  That's right, sir.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the original one you wrote

           9       the notes in?

          10   A.  That's right, sir.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So, as far as you're individually

          12       concerned that's been in your possession throughout that

          13       period?

          14   A.  That's right.

          15   MR STERN:  No one has asked you for them from that time,

          16       have they?

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Until recently.

          18   A.  Until recently, that's right.

          19   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  Thank you.  Let's see if

          21       Mr Keith has any questions.

          22   MR KEITH:  I don't, thank you very much.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's go down the back row.

          24           Ms Leek?

          25   MS LEEK:  No, thank you.


                                            64
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

           2   MR BUTT:  No, thank you.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

           4   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood?

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  I have nothing arising.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I have nothing either.  Thank you

           8       very much for coming along.  I know it's been very

           9       inconvenient for you but thank you for coming and

          10       providing your notes in the way that you have.

          11   A.  Thank you so much.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That completes your evidence you are

          13       free now to go.

          14   A.  I appreciate that, thank you.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you would like to leave us then

          16       firstly, thank you.

          17                      (The witness withdrew)

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, there is one other matter it might be

          19       convenient to deal with and that's some information in

          20       relation to the witness Q63 and the background of this

          21       is that there was an incident way back in 2005 which Q63

          22       was involved in.

          23           It involved a firearm being discharged so the IPCC

          24       was involved in it and there were exchanges of

          25       correspondence between the IPCC and others around that.


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       No disciplinary action was taken in relation to Q63, no

           2       prosecution was brought in relation to Q63, but the IPCC

           3       took the view that it had a guardianship oversight over

           4       police and, in particular, Q63, and reached a view about

           5       him.

           6           The consequence of that is that various documents

           7       have been agreed very kindly between Mr Stern and

           8       Mr Mansfield and their teams about what could go in

           9       front of the jury to reflect --

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Has Mr Glasson also been involved on

          11       behalf of the IPCC?

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  I have no doubt he has in his usual quiet

          13       way.

          14   MR GLASSON:  I should say that we were not involved in the

          15       application that the material shouldn't be disclosed to

          16       the family.  That was an ex parte application.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have been involved in this

          18       matter now coming before the jury?

          19   MR GLASSON:  Yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Good thank you, Mr Underwood.

          21          Documents relating to Q63 read by MR UNDERWOOD

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  The documents will go before the jury then

          23       and there are five pages of them.  I've been asked to

          24       read parts of them so some context is given.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is it available for the jury now?


                                            66
 

 

 


           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  It is.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let the jury have those then.  This

           3       will become our next divider, which I think is 37.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  37.  (Handed)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's have it in that form, thank

           6       you very much.  Yes, right, good, thank you.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  I am not proposing to read all of it out but

           8       perhaps I can pick up highlights and if anybody wants me

           9       to read more, of course, I will.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's all receive it firstly and put

          11       it in our files.

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  What starts this is wording put together by

          13       my learned friends.  It summarises the position that:

          14           "In December 2005 Q63 fired a shot in the course of

          15       duty five months after commencing service as an ARV

          16       officer.  He, together with other ARV officers,

          17       intercepted a vehicle which contained one male

          18       individual who it was believed was in possession of

          19       a firearm.

          20           "The vehicle reversed and then drove forwards across

          21       the kerb to get away.  During this manoeuvre Q63 shouted

          22       'Armed police' and raised his weapon.  When the vehicle

          23       accelerated towards Q63 he believed he was going to be

          24       hit by the vehicle and took an instinctive rather than

          25       an aimed shot at the driver.  The shot in fact entered


                                            67
 

 

 


           1       the rear offside passenger window 'passed over the front

           2       of the seat squab of the front passenger seat and down

           3       towards the passenger footwell.  There is no impact or

           4       contact evidence to show that the bullet actually

           5       reached the footwell'.  The car drove off and was later

           6       found abandoned.  No blood was found on the vehicle.

           7           "As with all such incidents a thorough investigation

           8       was carried out.  In this instance the investigation was

           9       managed by the IPCC."

          10           Sir, you'll know that sometimes the IPCC conducts

          11       an investigation of its own, other times it will simply

          12       supervise or manage an investigation carried out by the

          13       police and this was a managed one.  Then what it says

          14       is:

          15           "The following are various extracts from bodies

          16       concerned in the investigation."

          17           The first is an extract from what the Directorate of

          18       Professional Standards of the Metropolitan Police said.

          19       4.3:

          20           "The sequence of events described by Q63, in

          21       particular on arrival at Strode Road, when scrutinised

          22       in detail, is not corroborated by the CCTV.

          23           "4.4.  This investigation has conceded that this was

          24       the perception of the officer which without any rebuttal

          25       evidence stands alone."


                                            68
 

 

 


           1           Then down at 5.2, the conclusion of the Directorate

           2       of Professional Standards investigator:

           3           "It is my view that in consideration to all the

           4       facts outlined and the evidence currently available

           5       there is insufficient evidence to instigate criminal or

           6       misconduct proceedings against PC Q63."

           7           Over the page we see the IPCC's reaction and jumping

           8       down to the second paragraph, numbered 75:

           9           "Q63's detailed account to be interpreted in two

          10       ways, firstly the account of the incident and his

          11       justification to shoot at [somebody called '4'] is not

          12       an honest account or secondly, that it relies upon the

          13       condition known as perception distortion, ie he was

          14       reacting to the circumstances as he perceived them at

          15       the time not as they physically were."

          16           Then if I jump down to 78:

          17           "The concern generated in this matter would also

          18       carry on into any other stressful or similar incidents

          19       and/or shootings that Q63 may be involved in the future.

          20       Given this position, if the IPCC became involved in

          21       future investigations which included any accounts from

          22       Q63, either as a witness or as a principal officer then

          23       his testimony would have to be treated with extreme

          24       caution."

          25           Sorry, let me go back to 77:


                                            69
 

 

 


           1           "Q63's account in this high pressure incident varies

           2       considerably from both the CCTV footage and that of the

           3       account given by 4."

           4           That's the man in the car:

           5           "If this level of variance is down to the officer's

           6       perception distortion when under stress then it has to

           7       be questioned whether the officer should actually be

           8       exposed to significant stress such as firearms

           9       incidents."

          10           Then over the page, the CPS, I take the top half of

          11       the page:

          12           "In deciding not to instigate criminal proceedings

          13       the CPS concluded in its letter to the driver that 'the

          14       weight of the evidence ie taking into account the other

          15       eyewitnesses, points to the conclusion that, owing to

          16       the manner in which you were driving, Q63 was in

          17       immediate lethal danger.  In those circumstances, it was

          18       difficult to see how a prosecution  would be able to

          19       prove beyond reasonable doubt that the type and amount

          20       of force used was unreasonable.'.

          21           "In a letter dated 30 October 2007, which is

          22       attached, the IPCC concluded 'that there are no issues

          23       in respect of misconduct or criminality to be addressed

          24       with the principal officer in this matter'.

          25           "The IPCC's letter of 30 October 2007 refers to


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           1       reliance upon an expert report from a Dr William

           2       Lewinski.  Below are two short extracts ..."

           3           I will just take the first extract, unless anybody

           4       wants me to do both.  The first says:

           5           "It was PC Q63's belief that the vehicle was 'coming

           6       at him' and he was in danger of being run down or

           7       crushed up against the vehicle that he believed to be

           8       behind him.  Generally when someone is under the belief

           9       they are about to die, the capacity to judge angle and

          10       speed of oncoming vehicle, while attempting to side step

          11       and engage the vehicle, in what was likely an

          12       abbreviated timeframe of 2 seconds, would be extremely

          13       difficult.  It is almost impossible to do this in

          14       three-quarters of a second."

          15           Then if we go over the page, page 4 of this clip,

          16       there's the IPCC's letter of 30 October 2007.  If I pick

          17       this up from halfway down it, a paragraph which starts:

          18           "I note the content and findings of Bill Lewinski's

          19       report and his expert opinion in respect of perceptual

          20       distortion.  It has never been the IPCC's view that 'the

          21       lack of perceptual distortions as traditionally

          22       understood, while in a life-threatening encounter, is

          23       a criterion for becoming a law enforcement officer'.

          24       The IPCC's concern in this matter still lies in the

          25       actual level of this distortion shown by the officer due


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           1       to the variance with what is captured by the CCTV, the

           2       level of detail in the officer's statement compared to

           3       the extremely brief time over which the incident took

           4       place.  It is these concerns that need to be captured as

           5       a guardianship matter by the IPCC.

           6           "Following the CO19 Police Federation response and

           7       the concerns raised by them on behalf of the officer,

           8       the IPCC report has been amended slightly to better

           9       reflect the FSS Ballistic report findings and some minor

          10       content issues.  A copy is attached for reference.

          11           "I am not, however, minded to change the findings of

          12       the report.  I understand that the officer has already

          13       returned to regular duties as an Authorised Firearms

          14       Officer and it is a matter for the Metropolitan Police

          15       Service as to how the officer is employed.  However,

          16       from a guardianship point of view, the IPCC will need to

          17       closely review the officer's role and any account

          18       provided should he be involved in any future shooting

          19       incident.

          20           "Having now decided this final outstanding issue,

          21       our involvement is this case is now at an end."

          22           I am very grateful to my friends for formulating

          23       that summary.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, as you know, V59 is due to be recalled.


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           1       He was ill today but we all hope he will be well

           2       tomorrow.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  So the plan is that we

           4       should meet at 10.30 tomorrow to hear his evidence?

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Please.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right then, members of the jury,

           7       thank you very much for your work this afternoon.  It

           8       may be we are hearing from the last witness tomorrow.

           9       That's the plan along those lines but we'll see.

          10           10.30 then, please, tomorrow morning.

 

                                            73
 
          24   (4.12 pm)

          25       (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Thursday,


                                            79
 


           1                         5 December 2013)

                       
                                            80
 


           1                              INDEX

           2                                                       PAGE

           3   Submissions by MR BUNTING ............................1

           4   Submissions by MR MANSFIELD ..........................6

           5   Submissions by MR KEITH ..............................7

           6   Submissions by MR PATIENCE ...........................9

           7   Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD .........................10

           8   Ruling ..............................................11

           9   WITNESS C (affirmed) ................................17

          10       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................17

          11       Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................34

          12       Questions by MR STERN ...........................43

          13   Documents relating to Q63 read by MR ................66
                         UNDERWOOD
          14
               Housekeeping ........................................73
          15

          
                                            81