Transcript of the Hearing 6 November 2013


           1                                     Wednesday, 6 November 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (10.34 am)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  We'll have the cameras off

           6       then, please, and the jury in.

           7                  (In the presence of the jury)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Underwood.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  DC Samuel, please.

          10            DETECTIVE CONSTABLE RACHAEL SAMUEL (sworn)

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Come and have

          12       a seat, please.

          13   A.  Thank you, sir.

          14                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Officer.  My name's Underwood,

          16       as I think you know.  I'm counsel for the Inquest.  Can

          17       I ask your full names please?

          18   A.  It's Rachael Samuel.

          19   Q.  Are you a Detective Constable in the Metropolitan

          20       Police?

          21   A.  I am.

          22   Q.  Were you in 2011?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Can I first of all apologise for you being kept waiting

          25       all of yesterday and not reached.  Thank you very much




           1       for coming back.

           2   A.  You're welcome.

           3   Q.  I want to ask you about events of 5 August 2011?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Were you at the Ferry Lane scene then?

           6   A.  I was.

           7   Q.  In what capacity?

           8   A.  Exhibits Officer on behalf of the DPS.

           9   Q.  You are even more quietly spoken than I am.  Would you

          10       mind moving the microphone very close to you?

          11   A.  I was Exhibits Officer on behalf of the DPS.

          12   Q.  Did you take over from Detective Constable Payne --

          13   A.  Correct.

          14   Q.  -- at about 4 o'clock in the afternoon?

          15   A.  That's when I got there, yes.

          16   Q.  Could we have a look, please, at CD197.  It will come

          17       up.  It's what I hope to be the third page of your

          18       worksheet --

          19   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          20   Q.  -- whether you have an original there or whether you

          21       want to look at it on screen.

          22   A.  I will look at my original, if that's okay.

          23   Q.  If we look at the bottom half of the page there.  Does

          24       this record the briefing you had from Detective

          25       Constable Payne?




           1   A.  Yes, it does.

           2   Q.  Would you mind reading out to us what's there?

           3   A.  "Received an exhibits briefing from DC Payne.  DC Payne

           4       detailed the extent of the crime -- the cordon

           5       parameters.  DC Payne explained the areas already

           6       searched by the PolSA teams and which areas had yet to

           7       be searched.

           8           "DC Payne explained the exact location where shots

           9       had been fired (evident from the blood on the pavement),

          10       introduced me to the IPCC representatives on scene and

          11       Inspector Mugglestone -- PolSA.

          12           "Terms of reference: PolSA teams had a search

          13       strategy as decided by the IPCC -- my role was to offer

          14       Exhibits Officer support by the IPCC identifying, seize,

          15       package relevant exhibits."

          16   Q.  Can I ask you a little more about what you've written

          17       there about the place where the shots had been fired

          18       identifiable by the blood?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Did you point to any areas on the pavement?

          21   A.  No, he pointed down the street.  We were at the top end

          22       of Ferry Lane near the railway bridge and DC Payne

          23       pointed down towards where the minicab was and adjacent

          24       to the minicab on the pavement.

          25   Q.  Did you later on yourself have a look at the pavement?




           1   A.  I went into the scene.

           2   Q.  Could you work out, as to your own satisfaction where

           3       the shots had been fired by reference to the blood?

           4   A.  Not where the shots had been fired but I could obviously

           5       tell from the blood on the pavement where Mr Duggan had

           6       been.  When I arrived on the scene his body had been

           7       removed from the scene.

           8   Q.  Thank you.  Did anybody give you any indication that

           9       a box in the minicab was of any importance?

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  I am going to move ahead a minute and then come back.

          12       I am going to move ahead to a point where, after the

          13       PolSA searchers had looked in and around the minicab,

          14       were you then told about blood spatter?

          15   A.  I was told about the blood spatter on the outside of the

          16       taxi door by the PolSA officers, I think, towards the

          17       end of their search of the minicab.

          18   Q.  Right.  So before the PolSA searchers were --

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  -- doing that, did you have any interest in the

          21       possibility of blood spatter on the minicab?

          22   A.  No.

          23   Q.  Is that because it was somebody else's job to worry

          24       about that or because there was no reason to consider

          25       blood spatter to be relevant?




           1   A.  I wasn't aware of it.

           2   Q.  So is the situation that, as Exhibits Officer, you were

           3       waiting for people to come to you with findings?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  I think you were here when Detective Constable Payne

           6       gave his evidence yesterday and he said, as he was

           7       leaving, the PolSA searchers were, I think, beginning or

           8       in the middle of their task of examining the minicab; is

           9       that your recollection?

          10   A.  I think when I arrived on the scene about 4.00, I think

          11       they had just been briefed and then I had to get

          12       clothed, barrier suits and everything else and they had

          13       already started the process of doing the minicab before

          14       I actually walked down into the centre of the scene and

          15       met them at the minicab.

          16   Q.  They presumably brought some items to your attention,

          17       did they --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- from the minicab?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Did they tell you that they had moved the seats around?

          22   A.  No.

          23   Q.  Did they tell you that they had moved anything from

          24       inside the minicab to the boot?

          25   A.  No.




           1   Q.  Would that have been important to you?

           2   A.  It would have been, it would have been relevant.

           3   Q.  In terms of them reporting things that they do find,

           4       such as mobile phones, for example, in the minicab, did

           5       you go to the minicab to look at them?

           6   A.  I walked to the minicab, I didn't go into the minicab

           7       but I was stood on the pavement looking at the cab, yes,

           8       but I didn't step inside.  That wasn't my sort of role

           9       as such.

          10   Q.  Okay.  I want to move onto the orange plastic bag in

          11       which a bullet was found.  That was brought to your

          12       attention, was it?

          13   A.  Yes, it was.

          14   Q.  Where was the bag and where was the bullet when it was

          15       brought to your attention?

          16   A.  That had been taken out and we were just stood literally

          17       next to the door when the officer showed me.

          18   Q.  Sorry, there may be an issue about whether that bag was

          19       outside the minicab when it was searched or inside the

          20       minicab when it was searched; can you help us with which

          21       it was?

          22   A.  No, I can't, because the officer would have searched the

          23       interior of the minicab, it was brought to my attention

          24       outside the minicab, but literally just at the door of

          25       the minicab, and I was shown the orange Sainsbury's bag.




           1   Q.  Okay.  The next thing I want to ask you about is what

           2       happened after it was brought to your attention that

           3       there was blood spatter on the minicab.  That was

           4       towards the end of the PolSA search, was it?

           5   A.  Roughly, yes.

           6   Q.  Had it then become obvious to you that it would be

           7       necessary to do a forensic search for that -- or

           8       forensic tests of it?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Did you pass that information on to the IPCC?

          11   A.  I did.  I think it's recorded in my notes.

          12   Q.  Was the outcome of that that a decision was made to have

          13       forensic testing done of the minicab?

          14   A.  I don't know if it was my direct contact with the IPCC

          15       about it but they make the decision that it would then

          16       be forensically lifted, I think, for a second time.

          17   Q.  Would this be fair: that at that stage, once it was

          18       realised there was blood spatter around the door and the

          19       sill of the minicab and forensic tests were due to be

          20       done, it had become particularly important to know

          21       whether anything had been moved around inside the

          22       minicab, like the seats, or from the inside of the

          23       minicab to the boot; would that be fair?

          24   A.  Yes, yes.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, Detective Constable,




           1       that's all I ask you.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

           3           Anything, Mr Mansfield?

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  No, thank you.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's just go through.

           6           Mr Stern, I think.

           7                      Questions by MR STERN

           8   MR STERN:  Yes, thank you, sir.  I wonder if we could just

           9       go back to your worksheet, please.  Could we look at

          10       page 199.  We can see:

          11           "Seize plastic bag Sainsbury's, bullet/casing found

          12       in ..."

          13           Does that say "at scene"?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  You told us that a PolSA officer showed you the

          16       Sainsbury's bag and you were literally just outside the

          17       minicab?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Were the contents within the Sainsbury's bag at the time

          20       you saw them?

          21   A.  Yes.  I think that was our -- the bag was opened and the

          22       actual casing was actually inside the bag and then that

          23       obviously had to be all seized together, but I think, as

          24       PC Rainford explained yesterday, it would have been very

          25       hard for me -- I shouldn't have got into the taxi anyway




           1       but then to do it in situ in the taxi just where the

           2       seats were, it would have been impossible to move and

           3       look at things, so hence why the officer lifted it from

           4       the taxi, brought it to me just outside the taxi to show

           5       me.

           6   Q.  Right.  So when you saw it, he had literally taken it

           7       from the taxi, the minicab --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- and showed it to you just literally outside the

          10       minicab --

          11   A.  Correct.

          12   Q.  -- and held it open so that you could see inside it?

          13   A.  Correct.

          14   Q.  When you looked inside, you could see a bullet or what

          15       you suspected may be --

          16   A.  I couldn't say at the time, suspected may have been.

          17   Q.  It was something of relevance to the incident?

          18   A.  We thought so, that's why he brought it to my attention,

          19       yes.

          20   Q.  It was at that point that it was seized, was it?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Also at page 199, we have the mobile phone purple

          23       BlackBerry.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  That was taken from where, please?




           1   A.  I think if you -- I think you showed it yesterday.

           2       There was a very poor -- my drawing is not the best,

           3       a very poor map of a taxi and I think I have marked "1"

           4       and "2" on there.

           5   Q.  You have.  CD1038, if that helps you.

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  I think you are the proud owner of that drawing?

           8   A.  I wouldn't say proud.

           9   Q.  We can see that what you have helpfully done on this

          10       note is, working from left down a column and then to

          11       right if we can, "BlackBerry mobile phone", and then you

          12       give a number; that was the mobile phone that was found

          13       was it?

          14   A.  Yes, I believe so.

          15   Q.  PC Rainford.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Then you have drawn a picture of the vehicle; what is

          18       that supposed to tell us?

          19   A.  What, the picture of the vehicle?  What's what supposed

          20       to tell you, sorry?

          21   Q.  The picture, is it any different from the one on the

          22       right?

          23   A.  I think the numbering might be different but the mobile

          24       phone -- the Sainsbury's plastic bag was found at

          25       number 2, which is behind two seats, if you like,




           1       I think you saw the pictures yesterday.

           2   Q.  Pausing a moment, that's the picture on the right we can

           3       see of the page?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  At the moment I am just asking you about the drawing you

           6       have done just below PC Rainford; is that any different

           7       or shall we just ignore that?

           8   A.  No, it's the same, it's me just doing my drawings at the

           9       scene to remind myself.

          10   Q.  That's fine, so we can ignore that for the moment and

          11       just look at the one on the right?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  As you say, the mobile phone was found where?

          14   A.  Where I have placed the number "1" on the seats.

          15   Q.  On the seats?

          16   A.  On the seats, I believe, yes.

          17   Q.  So that will be the rear seats?

          18   A.  There were three banks of seats, it's a people carrier,

          19       so it would have been sort of the middle as opposed to

          20       the very back of the --

          21   Q.  Not in the front?

          22   A.  No.

          23   Q.  But in the rear seats that were facing towards the rear

          24       of the minicab, in other words the middle bank of seats?

          25   A.  The middle bank of seats, which way they were facing




           1       I cannot tell you, I can't remember that, but they were

           2       in the middle bank of seats.

           3   Q.  Well, we have heard about that and I need not trouble

           4       you.  Next to the Sainsbury's bag you have marked that

           5       as number 2?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Where again was that, was that in the same position?

           8   A.  No, that's slightly -- that's behind the seat, the

           9       front -- it would have been the front passenger seat.

          10       I think when we saw it in the picture yesterday it was

          11       just behind the front seats.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So where do you say the BlackBerry

          13       was, in between the seats?

          14   A.  No, I don't know if it was between the seats but that's

          15       the location, it's from that bank of seats, and then the

          16       Sainsbury's bag was almost in front of that, behind.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On the seat, the BlackBerry?

          18   A.  My drawings and my numbering has been taken from what

          19       I've been told by the two PolSA officers who searched

          20       that.  They pointed in the direction towards the taxi,

          21       the inside of the taxi as to where those two items were

          22       found.

          23   MR STERN:  Have a look at this original photograph.  We've

          24       got that but we cannot show two things at the same time,

          25       at least I don't think we can.  I don't want to test the




           1       gentleman who's here today.  I don't know if the jury

           2       have seen that original photograph or not, I can't

           3       remember.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I keep promising them we'll get some

           5       copies so that we can all have one each.

           6   MR STERN:  It's been passed round, Mr Underwood said, but it

           7       may be helpful if they just do that at some point.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At some point certainly, yes.  Carry

           9       on, yes.

          10   MR STERN:  I wonder if we could have that document back up

          11       on the screen, CD1038.  We understand that photograph

          12       was taken at midnight on 4 going into 5 August?

          13   A.  Okay.

          14   Q.  You arrived at 4 o'clock on 5 August.

          15   A.  Correct.

          16   Q.  So just help us with that.  That photograph that you can

          17       see there, was the bag in the same position as --

          18       according to what you were told, obviously, because it

          19       was out of the minicab when you saw it?

          20   A.  Mm-hmm.  I would suggest roughly, yes.

          21   Q.  Roughly there, all right, that's very helpful.

          22           Can we go back to your note then at CD1038.  You

          23       have given exhibit references, is that "RES" --

          24   A.  Correct.

          25   Q.  -- which is obviously your initials?




           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  RES/1 is the bullet, the mushroom shape, and then you've

           3       given where it's from, in the Sainsbury's carrier bag?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  That's what you've written in that document at the time,

           6       yes?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Then RES/2, you have given that a separate reference,

           9       "Sainsbury's plastic bag"?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Then some Lucozade we know belonged to the taxi driver,

          12       RES/3.  Then RES/4, there's the purple BlackBerry mobile

          13       that was in the back of the vehicle, we know on the

          14       middle seats but on the back of the vehicle.  Then the

          15       Iceland bag, RES/5, which again we know belong the to

          16       the taxi driver.

          17           Can I just ask you, at page 200, CD200, in other

          18       words the next page, we can see in the middle of that

          19       page that it says:

          20           "Due to impending rain ..."

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Can I ask you this: although it was August and perhaps

          23       it's always impending rain in England --

          24   A.  In London.

          25   Q.  -- nevertheless, had it actually been raining at the




           1       time you were there or before?

           2   A.  No, it was going to rain and I was doing my packaging

           3       and moving everything out and putting it onto the area

           4       outside the taxi and I didn't want to get everything wet

           5       so I decided to move it all up to my van which was at

           6       the outer cordon.

           7   MR STERN:  Right.  Thank you very much.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was the issue about blood spatter on

           9       the outside of the taxi, was that something that

          10       concerned you in the rain or not?

          11   A.  It did, and that's why I raised it with the IPCC.  It

          12       wasn't raining at that point but, bearing in mind the

          13       taxi had been in the scene, out of the scene, back in

          14       the scene --

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  And still not forensically examined.

          16   A.  -- and not forensically -- I wasn't sure what was going

          17       on with that but I was there, I had raised it with the

          18       IPCC, as I should have done, and awaited their response,

          19       which they did actually then decide to lift it, which

          20       was good.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You told us about, when you were

          22       some distance away right at the beginning of the scene,

          23       some blood on the pavement as to where Mr Duggan's body

          24       had been.

          25   A.  Yes.




           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you notice whether there was any

           2       blood on the pavement just outside the area of the taxi

           3       door, below where the spattering was on the taxi or

           4       anything like that?

           5   A.  I can't remember, sir, sorry.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No.  Right, yes, let's carry on.

           7       Anybody else?

           8           Mr Keith, do you have any questions you would like

           9       to ask?

          10                      Questions by MR KEITH

          11   MR KEITH:  Yes, thank you very much.

          12           DC Samuel, who was responsible for the crime scene

          13       when you attended as Exhibits Officer?

          14   A.  I believe it was Colin Sparrow of the IPCC.

          15   Q.  If we look, please, at your notes, CD196, who is the

          16       person in charge of the scene that you have noted there

          17       halfway down the page?

          18   A.  Colin Sparrow of the IPCC.

          19   Q.  Over the page, we can see the reference to the briefing

          20       that you've already spoken of.

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Do we see at the bottom of the page, CD197,

          23       a description of your role?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  It was to provide support, if we go right, please, on




           1       the page -- if you go back to the left, please, just the

           2       last -- there we are, the second last line:

           3           "... to provide support to the IPCC."

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  In fact, when we look at the detail of the steps that

           6       you took, CD199, halfway down the page, do you refer

           7       there to "ongoing discussions with the IPCC"?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Discussions over the mobile phones, the SIM cards?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Then at the bottom of the page, is that a reference to

          12       the issue that you have already referred to, which was

          13       when the PolSA officers highlighted the blood splatter,

          14       there was a discussion with the IPCC about a full

          15       forensic search?

          16   A.  That's correct.

          17   Q.  What was the nature of your discussion with the IPCC on

          18       that issue like?

          19   A.  I suggested to them that there was blood -- I wasn't

          20       sure if it had been raised before because I came to the

          21       scene, I think, something like 22 hours after the

          22       initial call and I wasn't sure if it had been raised

          23       before, so I -- the PolSA officer said to me "Rach,

          24       there is some blood splatter on the outside of the

          25       vehicle", I walked back up to the outer cordon where




           1       they were and let them know "Look, there's some blood

           2       splatter, you might want to consider lifting this

           3       vehicle".

           4   Q.  For what purpose?

           5   A.  Forensic analysis of the blood splatter on the door

           6       because it would be relevant.

           7   Q.  Where would that take place?

           8   A.  There are a number of car pounds but probably Perivale.

           9   Q.  Were you aware that the car earlier in the day had been

          10       taken away to go to Perivale but had been brought back

          11       prematurely?

          12   A.  When I arrived it was being brought back onto the scene

          13       roughly just about 4.00.

          14   Q.  So when you said to them "Look, the Toyota must go for

          15       a full forensic examination", did you make your opinion

          16       known with some force?

          17   A.  It's difficult.  I'm working on behalf of the IPCC but

          18       perhaps in certain circumstances I have a greater

          19       knowledge and understanding of forensics than the IPCC

          20       representatives who were there.  Therefore, I have to

          21       make suggestions to them and you will make those

          22       suggestions in a professional way.  So, yes, I said to

          23       them would you like to consider lifting this vehicle for

          24       forensics.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In a professional way?




           1   A.  In a professional manner, of course.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, I'm sure.

           3   MR KEITH:  In the same vein in terms of your

           4       professionalism, at the top of CD199, can you just

           5       describe what sort of steps you took in order to ensure

           6       that what you did did not lead to contamination of

           7       anything you handled?

           8   A.  Well, I wore full barrier clothing and I wore my gloves,

           9       two sets of gloves.

          10           I know there was an issue around contamination

          11       yesterday.  I regularly changed my gloves as we are

          12       taught to do in between each individual exhibit.

          13       Did I seize them?  No, but that's the process I went

          14       through and I had full barrier clothing on the whole

          15       time and boots and things to try and prevent any

          16       cross-contamination at the scene.

          17   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

          18   A.  You're welcome.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Sorry, Ms Leek, I have

          20       failed to ask you if you have any questions.

          21   MS LEEK:  No, thank you, sir.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt, no.

          23           Mr Glasson, no.

          24           Yes, Mr Underwood?

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  I have no further questions.




           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much and I apologise

           2       for the wait yesterday.

           3   A.  Thank you, sir.

           4                      (The witness withdrew)

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  PC Nicholls, please.

           6            POLICE CONSTABLE SCOTT NICHOLLS (affirmed)

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you Mr Nicholls, have a seat

           8       then, please.

           9   A.  Thank you.

          10                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Officer.

          12   A.  Good morning.

          13   Q.  Can you give us your full names please?

          14   A.  Scott Nicholls.

          15   Q.  Are you a Police Constable in the Metropolitan Police?

          16   A.  That's correct.

          17   Q.  Were you a search officer on 5 August 2011 --

          18   A.  I was, yes.

          19   Q.  -- at Ferry Lane?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Were you one of the two officers tasked with searching

          22       the inside of the minicab?

          23   A.  That's correct, yes.

          24   Q.  I want to ask you, in particular, about the bullet that

          25       we have just been hearing about in the plastic bag?




           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  When you came to search the plastic bag, did you do that

           3       inside or outside of the minicab?

           4   A.  I believe it was outside the minicab.

           5   Q.  Tell us, if you would, how the process of searching that

           6       bag actually went?

           7   A.  Obviously where the bag was within the minicab, I had

           8       seen it before we actually went inside, as you get

           9       taught to look at anything that might stand out.  So

          10       I had noted that there was a bag, I think there was

          11       a mobile phone as well, and then you systematically

          12       search the inside of the car as you would any sort of

          13       search.

          14           When I've got to the bag, because the inside of the

          15       minicab is quite confined and there's two of you

          16       searching, I've taken the bag just outside the minicab,

          17       literally where the door was, outside.  Because there

          18       was a number of items inside the bag, I've taken them

          19       out one at a time, as you would do, sort of

          20       systematically, and that's obviously where I've come

          21       across this -- what I thought was a bullet at the time.

          22   Q.  Is there any doubt at all that it was in the bag?

          23   A.  Definitely in the bag.

          24   Q.  We've got a photograph of sorts which just about --

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have it there in front of you,




           1       I think.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  It just about shows the orange bag.  That's

           3       as good as it gets.

           4   A.  This one here?

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  Have a look.

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  Presumably, by the time you had come across

           8       the bag, you had moved the seats around a few times, had

           9       you, or had you?

          10   A.  Obviously, when I've seen the bag it would have been

          11       like this (indicates) but obviously to get to the bag,

          12       obviously the notes that I made at the time, or after

          13       the event, you would have had to have moved -- I know we

          14       moved the seats around a number of times just to be able

          15       to get into the minicab, you know.

          16   Q.  As best as you understand it, that photograph was taken

          17       midnight, so a good time before you came along.

          18   A.  Okay.

          19   Q.  Can you confirm that was the position it was in when you

          20       first saw it?

          21   A.  Yeah.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Can you help us about whether the mouth of it was open

          23       so that a bullet coming from the outside of the car

          24       could have fallen into it?

          25   A.  I think the bag was open because you could see there was




           1       other items inside the bag.  On the notes that I made,

           2       you know, there were items inside the bag which, if the

           3       bag was closed, I wouldn't have been able to see.

           4           As far as I remember, the bag -- it wasn't like tied

           5       or anything like that, you know, it was sort of loosely

           6       open.

           7   Q.  Can you help us about whether the opening of it was, as

           8       it were, facing towards the outside of the minicab with

           9       the door open?

          10   A.  I can't remember I'm afraid, sorry.

          11   Q.  Did it strike you as odd in any way that the bullet was

          12       in the bottom of the bag, did it strike you that it

          13       couldn't have got there or could have got there through

          14       normal flight through the air into the minicab?

          15   A.  Yes, it was strange there was a bullet inside a carrier

          16       bag.

          17   Q.  At the bottom?

          18   A.  Yeah.  You know, you sort of think to yourself "How has

          19       that got there?" but, you know, I'm not a ballistics

          20       expert, I don't know how guns fire, how projectiles, you

          21       know, so --

          22   Q.  Help us with the other material inside the bag.  Was the

          23       other stuff there covering over the bullet in such a way

          24       the bullet must have been put there after the -- put

          25       there before the other stuff in or could it have fallen




           1       in or what?

           2   A.  All I can remember is the fact that I have taken items

           3       out of the bag and I think the bullet was the last thing

           4       that I've seen in the bag.  So whether or not the bullet

           5       has fallen to the bottom of the bag as I have started

           6       pulling items out, I don't know, but it was sort of the

           7       last thing inside the orange carrier bag.

           8   Q.  It's possible that it could have been somewhere towards

           9       the top of the bag and got dislodged by you moving it?

          10   A.  Possibly, yes, could be.

          11   Q.  All right.  We've heard that, ordinarily, PolSA

          12       searching comes at pretty much the end of a forensic

          13       exercise and that it can be quite disruptive because you

          14       are expected to go in there with a very fine-toothed

          15       comb, examine everything which may mean pulling things

          16       around, taking things out; is that fair?

          17   A.  Yes, normally we would be, sort of, one of the last

          18       stages.

          19   Q.  We've heard, of course, that the -- in the course of you

          20       and your partner doing the search, you moved those seats

          21       around, you took the rug out, you took the box out and

          22       you put the rug and the box in the boot; is that

          23       accurate?

          24   A.  I can't comment on the box.  I don't remember about the

          25       box.  I know I've been asked about this before.  The




           1       box -- if it was there, it wasn't of significance, it

           2       would have been placed back where we found it.  It

           3       wouldn't have been -- we wouldn't have taken a box out

           4       of the inside of the car and then put into the boot of

           5       the car.

           6           The car is done systematically, it's done -- there's

           7       different stages to searching a car.  You do the engine,

           8       the outside, the underneath, the boot and the inside.

           9       There's five stages.  Each one is broken down.  Whatever

          10       was taken, ie with the Sainsbury's bag, if that was

          11       taken out, it would not have been then taken round and

          12       put into the boot, even if it wasn't significant.  So

          13       anything that was taken out of that car, whether or not

          14       we would have removed the seat from the car, it would

          15       have gone back, same with the boot.

          16           Anything that was removed from the boot of the car

          17       that wasn't retrieved as evidence or whatever, it would

          18       have been put back in the boot of the car.

          19   Q.  Your training and experience would have led you to have

          20       put the seats back where they were, put the carpet back

          21       where it was if you'd moved it --

          22   A.  Basically, we try and put stuff back as we found it.  It

          23       doesn't always happen like that.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you search the boot, can you

          25       remember?




           1   A.  I believe I did, yes.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well, Constable.  Thank you very much

           3       indeed.

           4   A.  Thank you.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Thomas.

           6                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           7   MR THOMAS:  Good morning, Mr Nicholls.  I represent the

           8       loved ones of Mark Duggan.

           9   A.  Good morning.

          10   Q.  I just have a few questions for you.  Firstly, if we

          11       start with the bullet and the carrier bag, did you

          12       examine the bag itself?

          13   A.  What do you mean "examine the bag"?  What, the actual --

          14   Q.  So, for instance, did the bag have any damage to it?

          15   A.  I don't remember.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  They must still have the bag

          17       somewhere, I'm sure, if anybody wants to see it?

          18   MR GLASSON:  We do have that.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Glasson.

          20   MR THOMAS:  Secondly, just in relation to the box, it's

          21       right, isn't it, that your first statement makes no

          22       mention of the box at all, does it?

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  In your second statement that you make, you say that you

          25       have no recollection of seeing the box.




           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  How did the box come to your attention?

           3   A.  I attended, I believe it was a Trident office, and asked

           4       if I remembered -- I was shown a photo and I was asked

           5       if I remembered if the box was inside the minicab and,

           6       as I explained at the time, I could not remember.

           7       I couldn't confirm or deny whether that box was in the

           8       minicab at the time.  It wasn't of any significance to

           9       the search.  It wouldn't have been highlighted so --

          10   Q.  But when you did your initial search of the vehicle and

          11       you made your initial statement, you were tasked to look

          12       for items that may be considered to be relevant.  Were

          13       you given a briefing?

          14   MR KEITH:  That was two questions.

          15   MR THOMAS:  I'll break it down.  You were tasked to consider

          16       items that may be relevant; that is right, isn't it?

          17   A.  Yes.  Obviously we was aware there had been a shooting

          18       and obviously things like ballistics, stuff like that.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were you particularly asked what to

          20       look for?

          21   A.  I can't remember the exact -- I know it would have been

          22       along the lines of things like ballistics, markings,

          23       obviously bullets, fragments, stuff like that, things

          24       that you probably normally associate with firearms, or

          25       things like that, you know.  Things like boxes wasn't --




           1       wasn't a significance.

           2   MR THOMAS:  Can we look at CE26, which I believe is the

           3       briefing.  Can we just go through this.  We can see that

           4       the object of the search is:

           5           "Bullets, shells.  Firearm related material."

           6   A.  That's correct.

           7   Q.  Obviously, would you accept this: where you're looking

           8       in a vehicle, places where those items may be, so

           9       bullets, shells, firearms related material, would be

          10       where you would be tasked to look -- the bag, you looked

          11       in the bag, you searched the bag?

          12   A.  That's correct, yes.

          13   Q.  I'm just, again, asking the question: if there was a box

          14       in the car, in the minicab, that would be the sort of

          15       place that you would obviously want to look into just to

          16       see whether or not these items, bullets, shells,

          17       firearms related material, may be there?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Okay.  But you've got no recollection of the box being

          20       in the vehicle?

          21   A.  No.

          22   MR THOMAS:  Thank you.  That's all I ask you.

          23   A.  Thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I just have a look at the

          25       photograph you have there.  It was mentioned.




           1   A.  (Handed)

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Perhaps, members of the jury, you

           3       might like to pass that round you again while we get the

           4       bag.

           5           Have we got the bag?

           6           Sorry, pass the photograph round.  That wasn't for

           7       anyone else, I just was looking over there to see

           8       whether the plastic bag --

           9   MR GLASSON:  Ms Kemish has been given the bag.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's why I'm looking across to

          11       Ms Kemish at the moment to see whether we have the bag.

          12           Yes, please, let's open it up.

          13           (The photograph was passed around the jury)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are.

          15               (The bag was handed to the witness)

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Nicholls.  I wonder if

          17       you would just hold up the bag so we can see it.

          18   A.  (Indicates).

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Can you confirm that that is

          20       the bag we've been talking about?

          21   A.  Yes.  Yes, definitely.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What sort of other items were in

          23       there, can you recall?

          24   A.  I can't recall.  No, I don't remember.  I remember there

          25       being a Lucozade bottle in the back, but the contents of




           1       the actual bag I cannot remember, I think there might

           2       have been a sandwich box or something.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It was all something to do with the

           4       taxi driver anyway, but you can't remember, even looking

           5       at the bag, looking at the photograph, in what sort of

           6       position it was when you first picked it up and brought

           7       it out?

           8   A.  No.  Definitely the bag was not tied up.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It wasn't tied at the top with the

          10       two handles?

          11   A.  You know how you get it tied as if rubbish was in there?

          12       It definitely wasn't tied up because I remember -- you

          13       could see there was stuff in there, you know, that had

          14       been bought.  So obviously the contents, I don't

          15       remember.  As I say, it had just been systematically

          16       searched and just on the outside --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At the bottom of the bag there was

          18       the --

          19   A.  Yes, you could see the item in the bottom of the bag,

          20       I remember it quite clearly and obviously you thought

          21       "That looks a bit strange", picked it up and it

          22       looked -- what I believe, it looked like a bullet but it

          23       had mushroomed.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are absolutely right, I'm going

          25       to come onto that in a moment.




           1           Whilst the witness has his gloves and the bag, any

           2       questions about that and then we can ask him to put the

           3       bag down and take the gloves off.  Anyone want to ask

           4       about that?  No.

           5           Let Ms Kemish repossess the bag as she has the

           6       gloves on.

           7           Mr Nicholls, you can take the gloves off.

           8   A.  Thank you.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Looking back at that photograph,

          10       because we know that's taken before your search, can we

          11       see, or can you, looking at that photograph, help us as

          12       to where the purple BlackBerry was?

          13   A.  I know I've made a note of it in my statement, am

          14       I allowed to refer to that?

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, of course.

          16   A.  Thank you.  (Pause)

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we will find it at 0297, in

          18       the middle of that page.

          19   A.  Sir, I've noted here, obviously, when I've looked inside

          20       the vehicle and seen the Lucozade bottle and Sainsbury's

          21       bag.  The only thing I have put is that I have noticed

          22       the mobile phone which was between the two rear seats

          23       that were immediately behind the driver and front

          24       passenger seats.  I've obviously not said what type of

          25       phone it is so --




           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But that's what you're referring to.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So looking back at the photograph

           4       we've been looking at now -- here's the statement coming

           5       up, but let's go back to the photograph -- you say

           6       between the two seats, obviously we are looking at those

           7       seats which are facing towards the rear.

           8   A.  Yes.  Where you can see, obviously -- you can see a cut

           9       in where the seats separate, can't you, the different

          10       sets of seats.  Can I?  (Indicates) Just there, it would

          11       have been around that sort of area, in between these two

          12       seats, probably very near to the Sainsbury's bag.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But clearly not on the seats,

          14       otherwise we would be able to see it in that photograph.

          15   A.  No, it wasn't on the seats, definitely not on the seat.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that something which you found

          17       before or after you moved the seats then?

          18   A.  That was done on a visual check of inside the car,

          19       before we systematically searched, from front to back,

          20       so we would start at the dash and do the sort of --

          21       I don't know if you want me to go into detail.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, no, you obviously recovered it

          23       before you moved.

          24   A.  We have seen it before we searched, we would have poked

          25       out head around, had a quick look around then




           1       systematically searched -- you know, brought that to the

           2       attention and then started searching.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Thank you very much

           4       Mr Nicholls, that answers the jury's question.

           5           Mr Stern, do you have anything?

           6   MR STERN:  No, thank you.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Ms Leek?  Mr Butt?  Mr Glasson?

           8   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Any more exhibits you want to

          10       produce?  No.

          11           Mr Keith?

          12                      Questions by MR KEITH

          13   MR KEITH:  PC Nicholls, how many searches a month do you

          14       carry out as part of your PolSA duties?

          15   A.  Blimey.  I have just completed a four-week PolSA search

          16       team attachment and I think in that four-week period

          17       I did about 30.

          18   Q.  It's difficult to imagine how one could spend so many

          19       hours inside a car searching but is that how long it

          20       takes?

          21   A.  It can do.

          22   Q.  On this occasion -- if we have CE33, please.  Thank you

          23       very much, and if it could be rotated.  Task 11:

          24           "Search of M/V motor vehicle index R343 KPE."

          25           Do you recognise your signature?




           1   A.  Yes, it's in box number 2 at the bottom.

           2   Q.  Then above it do we see there the times of the search?

           3   A.  That's correct, yes.

           4   Q.  So you were in the car or looking at the car, for some

           5       two and a half hours?

           6   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           7   Q.  When you arrived at the scene, as part of the briefing,

           8       were you aware that you were dealing with a fatal

           9       shooting?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Were you told whether the shooting had occurred inside

          12       or outside the car; do you recall?

          13   A.  I can't recall unless I look on my notes to see if I've

          14       noted that down.

          15   Q.  Can you look at CS296, please, which is the first page

          16       of your statement?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  That's the statement dated 2 September 2011.  Towards

          19       the bottom of the page, three lines from the bottom:

          20           "She also stated ..."

          21           "She" being Inspector Mugglestone?  She gave the

          22       briefing?

          23   A.  That's correct.

          24   Q.  "... that the vehicle Mr Duggan was in prior to the

          25       fatal shooting had originally been lifted for forensic




           1       examination and was en route ... en route a decision was

           2       made that the vehicle ..."

           3           The vehicle should come back?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Did you know anything about whether or not the shooting

           6       had occurred in the vehicle or outside the vehicle?

           7   A.  I don't believe we was told.

           8   Q.  If you cannot remember, don't worry.

           9   A.  I don't, I'm sorry.

          10   Q.  When you're carrying out a PolSA search, do you note

          11       everything you find in the course of a search or do you

          12       limit what you note down or bring to the attention of

          13       the Exhibits Officer in any way?

          14   A.  Do you mean -- sorry, could you just repeat the question

          15       again?

          16   Q.  If you are conducting a PolSA search, for example in

          17       a vehicle, do you record, note down or bring to the

          18       attention of the Exhibits Officer, every single item you

          19       find in the car --

          20   A.  No.

          21   Q.  -- or just those items that are significant?

          22   A.  Items that we've either been told to look for or items

          23       which I might feel are relevant which, you know, when

          24       you do a search, a lot of the times they're not

          25       relevant.  But it wouldn't be every single item that you




           1       would find in a search you would bring to the attention

           2       of the Exhibits Officer or your team leader because you

           3       would be stop/starting and you would be there hours upon

           4       hours.

           5   Q.  In this case, as we've seen from CE26 -- we need not

           6       bring it up -- the object of the search was told to you

           7       to be bullets, shells, firearm related material?

           8   A.  That's correct.

           9   Q.  You have been repeatedly asked about the box.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  You have said that you remember no box.  We know it was

          12       there because of the photographs.  Can you think of

          13       anything about that box that you have seen on the

          14       photograph that would have brought itself to your

          15       attention as being related to firearms, shells, bullets

          16       or ballistics?

          17   A.  At the time, no.

          18   Q.  Finally, in relation to the Toyota generally, were you

          19       aware that the vehicle had been brought back to the

          20       scene --

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  -- without a forensic search being carried out at

          23       Perivale?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Do you know who had made that decision?




           1   A.  I believe we was told it was the IPCC who were obviously

           2       in charge of the scene.

           3   Q.  In relation to the PolSA search that you carried out, is

           4       it an important part of that type of search that you

           5       must systematically search everything, regardless of

           6       messing up the car, changing things around?

           7   A.  Yes.  Normally, you -- the object would be in situ, you

           8       know, so you would do -- obviously certain forensic

           9       things would be done before we would be allowed to go

          10       onto the scene, but, yeah, generally.

          11   Q.  It seems that here you were directed to carry out

          12       a PolSA search, even though no forensic search had been

          13       carried out first?

          14   A.  I believe so, yes.

          15   Q.  Could you allow yourself to carry out your usual PolSA

          16       search in any different a way because of that or did you

          17       just carry on doing what you are ordinarily obliged to

          18       do, which is a full PolSA search?

          19   A.  Yes.  As long as you -- obviously the wearing of gloves

          20       and not to contaminate.  Yes, we was just asked to

          21       search the vehicle.  Obviously it wasn't in the same

          22       position after the incident but we was told to search

          23       it.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you do it any different a way?

          25       You knew there had not been a full forensic examination.




           1   A.  No, we did exactly the same as we would do.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were not worried about any

           3       gunshot residue perhaps on the carpets, you just took

           4       the carpets up and looked underneath?

           5   A.  No, we wasn't wearing any full forensic suits or

           6       anything like that.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You don't deal with things like

           8       that?

           9   MR KEITH:  Is that what you were told to do?

          10   A.  I believe so, yes, just search the car.

          11   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

          12               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were you there when the car came

          14       back on the low loader?

          15   A.  No, I think we got there after that that happened.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were you there when it was taken

          17       away afterwards or not?

          18   A.  Not that I recall.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, so you don't know how it was

          20       picked up?

          21   MR KEITH:  You might be assisted, sir, by -- the search

          22       record shows that the second PolSA team, Viking 101,

          23       arrived at 4 o'clock and the low loader had gone by

          24       then.  This team, of which PC Nicholls forms part, left

          25       at 9 o'clock and --




           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's not so much that, it's just the

           2       question of whether the car itself, when it was taken to

           3       and from was tipped or whether it was just kept up

           4       carefully or whether the contents were shaken and

           5       stirred, things of that nature might be of some

           6       interest, I suppose.  But we'll hear about that in due

           7       course.

           8   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Anyone else.

          10           Mr Underwood?

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  No thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, thank you very much then,

          13       Mr Nicholls, for coming forward to assist the jury.

          14       That completes your evidence you are free now to go.

          15   A.  Thank you.

          16                      (The witness withdrew)

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can we have Sergeant Hannigan, please?

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, of course.

          19              SERGEANT CHRISTOPHER HANNIGAN (sworn)

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Please have a seat, Mr Hannigan.

          21                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Sergeant.  Can I ask your full

          23       names, please?

          24   A.  It's Christopher Hannigan and my shoulder number is 21P,

          25       which is the Palace of Westminster.




           1   Q.  Thank you.  I think you were the team leader, were you,

           2       of the PolSA team of 5 August 2011?

           3   A.  I was.

           4   Q.  Can we have a look, please, at CE26.  It's your search

           5       record, I hope.

           6   A.  It is, yes, CPH/1 is my search record.

           7   Q.  It will come up on screen for the rest of us.  I want to

           8       ask you about how this works, if I may?

           9   A.  Okay.

          10   Q.  We can see the various boxes, starting location of

          11       search, then briefing by you and it gives the time and

          12       the date, it gives the Exhibits Officer and then it

          13       gives "Object of search" and it says there "(record

          14       exact details)" and against that you've written:

          15           "Bullets, shells.  Firearm related material."

          16   A.  Correct.

          17   Q.  How did it come about the objects of the search were

          18       defined in that way?

          19   A.  How was it told to me that's what we were looking for?

          20   Q.  Exactly.

          21   A.  Right, when you attend you go up to the officer in the

          22       case and speak to them, they will normally have

          23       a briefing sheet ready, which wasn't -- it didn't happen

          24       on this occasion, so it was given verbally.

          25   Q.  By whom?




           1   A.  DI Suggett.  DI Suggett would normally be in the

           2       briefing where I am but because I briefed the team, then

           3       it's my name that goes in.  During that, DI Suggett will

           4       give us our powers of search or we would discuss powers

           5       of search or what we're actually looking for.  So it's

           6       from what he says is what we're looking for.

           7   Q.  Right.  You presumably have done quite a few searches

           8       before this one, have you?

           9   A.  Yes, yes.

          10   Q.  While you've got a small box there for "Object of

          11       search", we know that the searchers went wider than that

          12       and, for example, brought mobile phones and the contents

          13       of the plastic bag generally up to consideration.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Was that normal, that the searchers would have a degree

          16       of latitude, if you like?

          17   A.  Yes.  If they -- if there's something in their search

          18       area, they would point it out either to me or the

          19       Exhibits Officer.  They would make a note of that even

          20       if they -- this Exhibits Officer would want that or not.

          21       That's the way that we work.

          22   Q.  Would you have expected the cardboard box that we have

          23       seen here to have been brought to the attention of the

          24       Exhibits Officer?

          25   A.  If there was something in it, yes.




           1   Q.  A box that might have once held a gun but is now empty

           2       would have been regarded as irrelevant, would it, in

           3       your experience?

           4   A.  No, I mean, obviously the two officers that I tasked to

           5       search the vehicle, they are tasked to search and

           6       I wasn't aware that there was a box and it was not

           7       brought to my attention.  If they had, maybe I might

           8       have discussed it with them and said -- or brought in

           9       the Exhibits Officer and discussed it with them.  It

          10       wasn't brought to my attention.  They would have

          11       searched, looked at it and made their decision of what

          12       they found.

          13   Q.  The other matter that perhaps you can help us with is

          14       the degree of disruption that you would expect from

          15       a search of a vehicle.  We've heard that, as you have

          16       just heard yourself, that the expectation would be that

          17       if you, for example, found a box in the passenger

          18       compartment, you might lift it up to have a look, you

          19       might look at it but you would put it back; would that

          20       be your expectation?

          21   A.  Yes.  We're trained to, when we search, we leave the

          22       search area better than what we left it.  So that's --

          23       so that would have been put back.  It wouldn't have been

          24       taken out or anything like that, it would have been left

          25       in situ.




           1   Q.  Although the search would be very intrusive, you would

           2       expect the end result to look pretty much like the

           3       beginning?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you, Sergeant, that's all I ask you.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas?  Ms Leek?  Mr Butt?

           7           Mr Stern, then?

           8   MR STERN:  I said no, sir.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You said no?

          10           Mr Keith?

          11   MR KEITH:  I have no questions, thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are, Mr Hannigan, that was

          13       short and sweet, so thank you very much.

          14   A.  Thank you.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just as you were getting

          16       comfortable, I know.  There we are.  Thank you for

          17       assisting us and you are free now to go.

          18   A.  Thank you very much.

          19                      (The witness withdrew)

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  I see we are losing focus, for some reason,

          21       on the cameras.  I don't know whether that might be

          22       a convenient moment.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, I think it probably would be

          24       a convenient moment so, members of the jury, that's the

          25       stage where what we will do is ask for the cameras to be

           1       turned off and for us to have our mid-morning break.

           4   (11.45 am)

           5                         (A short break)

           6   (12.07 pm)

          20   (12.46 pm)

          21                     (The short adjournment)

          22   (2.00 pm)

          23                      (Proceedings delayed)

          24   (2.07 pm)




           6           Right, we'll have the jury in.

           7                  (In the presence of the jury)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

           9       jury.  I'm sorry on two counts: firstly, we couldn't use

          10       your services this morning, so you had rather

          11       an extended lunch break, I just want to reassure you we

          12       were working in here dealing with matters of a legal

          13       nature; secondly, for keeping you standing out there.

          14       I wasn't quite sure how long but there was

          15       an administrative matter which we have now resolved, we

          16       believe, and we are now in a position to press on with

          17       the next witness, who is going to be --

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Mr Dobinson.


          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you have

          21       a seat, please, and pull the chair up towards the

          22       microphone we will be able to hear all that you have to

          23       say.

          24                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Mr Dobinson.  Can you give us



           1       your full names, please?

           2   A.  Yes.  My name is Simon George Dobinson.

           3   Q.  Your rank?

           4   A.  I'm currently a temporary Superintendent.

           5   Q.  Have you, at various stages in your career, been

           6       a Tactical Firearms Commander?

           7   A.  Yes, I have.

           8   Q.  Are you now Strategic Firearms Commander by training?

           9   A.  Yes, I am.

          10   Q.  Are you the Chief Firearms Instructor for the

          11       Metropolitan Police Service?

          12   A.  I am not currently the Chief Firearms Instructor, I was

          13       the Chief Firearms Instructor for the Metropolitan

          14       Police between February 2012 and February 2013.

          15   Q.  I want to ask you about firearms training then, if

          16       I may.  First of all, can we deal with the way in which

          17       decisions are made about how many people to train and

          18       for what roles and so on; how is that arrived at?

          19   A.  There's a requirement of all police forces that they are

          20       to assess what the known threats are that face the

          21       populace that they police.

          22           Within those threats you then have to apply what

          23       that level of risk or likelihood is, of those threats

          24       happening.

          25           So the Chief Constable, the Commissioner of the




           1       Police Service, will carry out that, or they'll delegate

           2       that to a senior officer and then, in determining what

           3       those threats are, and the likelihood of that threat

           4       actually being carried out, they will then have to

           5       identify how many police officers trained in firearms

           6       they'll need, what type of role and what type of skill

           7       they'll need, what kind of weapons, what kind of

           8       equipment and then ultimately then how much training is

           9       required in order to provide them with those skills to

          10       meet that threat.

          11   Q.  So in London, presumably, the sort of threats might be

          12       to the royal family at large, in general, so you might

          13       need to protect them, down to gang culture and the risks

          14       inherent in that?

          15   A.  Yes, that's absolutely right.

          16   Q.  How then is the decision made about how training is to

          17       be done?

          18   A.  Well, there are a number of very clear parameters around

          19       how training is delivered and the context in which it's

          20       delivered.

          21           All firearms training has to be licensed by the

          22       College of Policing, which used to be referred to as

          23       a National Police Improvement Agency.  The deliverers of

          24       firearms training, such as the Metropolitan Police, are

          25       licensed to provide that training.  In getting that




           1       licence you have to evidence, on an annual basis, that

           2       you are compliant with having material that follows the

           3       national curriculum, so modules and units of learning

           4       that you're required to provide, and also that you

           5       evidence, within the terms of your licence, that you

           6       have lesson plans for the lessons that you deliver, that

           7       you have recorded outcomes.  So there are objectives

           8       that you are trying to achieve through that training

           9       that link directly into the national curriculum.

          10           You also have to evidence that you have notes for

          11       your trainers so that any different trainer can pick up

          12       and deliver that lesson, that you have risk assessments

          13       applicable to those lessons and that you carry out

          14       a proper form of assessment so -- I'll give you

          15       an example: if a particular criteria for demonstrating

          16       competence is that you have to be able to hang on a rope

          17       for 20 seconds then one of the recorded learning

          18       outcomes is "The officer demonstrates the ability

          19       because they can hold onto the rope for 20 seconds".

          20       That could be an example.

          21   Q.  We've heard that, if you like, there's initial training

          22       and refreshers; are those both covered by curriculum?

          23   A.  Yes, that's right.  The initial -- the training is

          24       separated into three facets.  We have foundation

          25       training, so that takes an officer without any skills or




           1       they may have some existing skills and we'll give them

           2       new skills, new levels of what we call competencies and

           3       that's foundation training.

           4           We'll have different foundation courses for

           5       different skills so to become a specialist rifle officer

           6       you will undergo that type of training, to become

           7       a close protection officer or a bodyguard you will

           8       undergo that type of basic training.

           9           Once you have established those skills and you have

          10       achieved a demonstrable level of competency, you then

          11       have to maintain those skills on an annual basis by

          12       undergoing what we call continuation or refresher

          13       training, and the level and detail of that training

          14       varies according to your skill level.

          15           So if you're an officer stood outside Buckingham

          16       Palace, that has a certain function and you have

          17       training relevant to that role.  If you're an officer

          18       that's going to go and enter houses and rescue hostages

          19       that requires far more skills, far more training, so

          20       your continuation training will be -- there will be much

          21       more contact and much more training.

          22   Q.  This may state the obvious but can people fail either

          23       the foundation training or the refreshers?

          24   A.  Yes, they can, and yes, they do.

          25   Q.  We've heard about, to some extent at least, the degree




           1       of refresher training that the TST officers undergo.

           2       Can you help us with what degree of refresher training

           3       there is actually required?

           4   A.  Yes.  A TST officer will undergo 20 days' worth of

           5       training on an annual basis.  We separate those into

           6       particular blocks because within the Metropolitan Police

           7       we have an enormous amount of training, we have one of

           8       the largest training demands in the country because of

           9       the number of firearms officers that we have.

          10           So a tactical team officer will undergo training on

          11       a regular cycle of -- it may vary between six to eight

          12       weeks and they will have an opportunity to train within

          13       that period of time over four days.  As long as they

          14       meet the required contact time of 20 days per annum, as

          15       a minimal criteria, then they are deemed to maintain

          16       their competence.  Unless they demonstrate within that

          17       training something which causes us alarm or concern,

          18       because they are not demonstrating the right level of

          19       skill or competence.

          20   Q.  Again, we've heard that obviously police officers are

          21       chosen for firearms duties from having done other work.

          22       Again, this may be stating the obvious but let's do it

          23       anyway: when officers start the training, you would

          24       expect them to have a degree of skill in, for example,

          25       recollecting events, of calm analysis, of potentially




           1       dangerous situations, the ability to record things

           2       accurately afterwards, all the sort of policing

           3       expertise that one would hope for.

           4   A.  I would expect them to demonstrate skills like that,

           5       yes.

           6   Q.  Are those skills enhanced at all, the ones we have just

           7       been talking about, the ability to grasp what's going

           8       on, the ability to react calmly, the ability to record

           9       afterwards; are they enhanced by the firearms training?

          10   A.  I believe they are because of how we train them to

          11       recognise what things can affect their decision making.

          12       But whether that happens in reality can only be borne

          13       out by what individual officers may say.

          14   Q.  Is that really an objective of the training, though, to

          15       enhance those skills?

          16   A.  It's not an objective of the training, no, the objective

          17       of the training is to expose the officers to recognise

          18       what factors may affect their decision making and to

          19       understand and to put into context for them what

          20       physiological changes may happen in their body when they

          21       are under stress and an analogy would be that, if

          22       someone has a car accident, a common theme -- people

          23       will say "Time slowed down, I could only remember the

          24       blue colour of the car because they are affected by

          25       their recall.




           1           So what we do is we expose them and explain to

           2       officers why those things can happen.

           3   Q.  Very well.  Who does the training?

           4   A.  Currently -- when I was the Chief Firearms Instructor

           5       I had approximately 116 instructors, delivering

           6       full-time firearms training to the entire Metropolitan

           7       Police Service.

           8           A mixture of different ranks, different experience,

           9       police firearms instructors have to undergo a process of

          10       training themselves in order to become an instructor.

          11       Just because someone might be an experienced firearms

          12       officer does not mean that they will automatically be

          13       a good instructor because becoming an instructor is

          14       about understanding how to teach and how to follow

          15       a programme of training.

          16           So a firearms instructor will have to be

          17       operationally competent, so they must be experienced in

          18       the real life, and they have to be occupationally

          19       competent, which is someone who's undergone a lesson,

          20       a process of training, that means that they are then

          21       accredited as an instructor in the way teacher training

          22       would work.

          23   Q.  All right.  Let's put some detail on the training.

          24       We're dealing of course with TST team members here.

          25   A.  (Nods)




           1   Q.  In very broad terms, how long would their training have

           2       been by the time they are on the streets as TST

           3       officers?

           4   A.  Well, all TST officers will have been operationally

           5       competent ARV officers.  They will have then undergone

           6       a process of assessment in order to then be selected for

           7       a TST foundation course.  The TST foundation course is

           8       approximately seven weeks long and there are various

           9       additional units of learning that are provided to that

          10       officer which build on those existing blocks of learning

          11       and skills that they had as an ARV officer, so it's

          12       a building block approach.

          13   Q.  How long would the training have been to become an ARV

          14       officer?

          15   A.  At the time in 2011 it was about seven weeks, it's now

          16       9 weeks long.

          17   Q.  They would have had altogether 14 weeks training through

          18       ARV and then TST, is that right, quite apart from

          19       refreshers?

          20   A.  Correct.

          21   Q.  Very broadly, let's take a Constable who is selected to

          22       do the ARV course, what happens to him?

          23   A.  A Constable selected to the ARV course, are you talking

          24       about specifically during the course?

          25   Q.  Please.  What are they taught?




           1   A.  For the ARV course, we determine what we train them by

           2       according to what their role is so, as an armed response

           3       vehicle officer, there is a list of what we call role

           4       profiles that are set nationally and these are job

           5       descriptions.  So there's a role profile for a close

           6       protection officer, there's a role profile for a rifle

           7       officer and for an ARV officer and a myriad of others.

           8           To become an ARV officer you have to undergo

           9       training relevant to that role profile that's been set

          10       nationally.

          11           So the national requirement is that an ARV officer

          12       will be able to contain a building.  They will be

          13       required to be able to use a handgun and a carbine

          14       rifle.  They will be required to stop vehicles, they

          15       will be required to deal with people on foot.  So they

          16       will be required to do a number of skills.

          17           At the end of that course of instruction, they will

          18       then have to demonstrate that they can actually do that

          19       job and exhibit those skills and then they can be

          20       assessed as being competent.

          21   Q.  In the course of that ARV training, are they helped

          22       with, tested on, exercise of judgement about when to

          23       shoot and when not to shoot?

          24   A.  All officers in their initial foundation training, when

          25       they are not a firearms officer -- so that's becoming




           1       either a basic firearms officer that may stand outside

           2       buildings, a providing protection role, becoming

           3       an armed response vehicle officer or becoming

           4       a surveillance, armed surveillance officer.  They will

           5       all go through what we'll call a judgment training

           6       scenario and the judgment training is to expose the

           7       officers to a test of whether or not they suffer stress

           8       when they are facing an armed confrontation.

           9           We do that throughout training, both in tactical

          10       training, so on an actual training area we have

          11       a dedicated training site which is out of the public

          12       view, and we'll use instructors as what we call stooges

          13       and we'll have interaction to see how they react to

          14       that, and we also use a video and a scenario that's

          15       played out on a scene to see how the officer acts

          16       according to the different stresses that are put in

          17       place and it could be that the person they're seeing has

          18       a firearm or they haven't got a firearm or they made

          19       a threat or they don't make a threat.

          20   Q.  Even at ARV level, is that right?

          21   A.  Even at ARV level, yes.

          22   Q.  Is that done again at TST training level?

          23   A.  We don't, no.

          24   Q.  Let's just look at the ARV course for the moment then,

          25       that everybody at TST will have undergone.  Do you train




           1       all of them both in the live and by video?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  We've got a video we can show and it's just an example.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Nobody is suggesting it's of a situation the same as the

           6       officers faced here.  But can we just have a look at

           7       that, please, and then I'll ask you some questions about

           8       it if we may.

           9         (Training video footage was played to the court)

          10           Before a trainee is shown that, what briefing does

          11       he get?

          12   A.  What happens is we take students and we take them in

          13       groups of six and we have a specific room, it's like

          14       a classroom adapted at Gravesend, which is our centre of

          15       our training.  It's adapted to have a screen and the

          16       officers, two officers, will stand together and they'll

          17       stand back from the screen by about 10 foot/12 foot and

          18       they will have a handgun, which has been converted to

          19       fire a laser weapon.

          20           They get a brief to start off with and we start all

          21       our lessons by giving an introduction, so we explain the

          22       purpose of us there and the need for it.  The need for

          23       this training for the officers is to expose them to how

          24       they can use the national decision model, or the

          25       conflict management model, as it used to be described,




           1       in assisting them making a decision.

           2           We also do it to expose them to factors that will

           3       affect their decision making around issues such as fight

           4       or flight and the stresses that they'll come under

           5       potentially, if faced with an armed confrontation.  So

           6       we explain the need.  We then explain how long the time

           7       will take and normally for this lesson it's about three

           8       and a half hours.

           9   Q.  So three and a half hours just based on that one clip?

          10   A.  Forgive me, we'll have six people and they will all go

          11       through at least one scenario.  But, as you can see, the

          12       scenario might last for up to one minute and then we'll

          13       spend approximately 20 to 35 minutes debriefing that

          14       scenario and what they did.

          15           The relevance is around the outcomes that are listed

          16       in the national curriculum so the national curriculum

          17       required officers to have a competence and understanding

          18       around knowledge of the law, how they handle their

          19       weapons, and that's why this lesson is relevant to the

          20       curriculum.

          21           Then the objectives are that the officers themselves

          22       will go away, understanding how they react in these

          23       types of situations and the factors that can affect

          24       them.

          25           So what we'll do then is we give the officer




           1       a brief, we explain to them how the range works, how the

           2       laser scenario works.  They are competent at that time,

           3       they've been trained in how to actually point and use

           4       a firearm, so they are skilled.

           5   Q.  Can I just pause you there.  How long into their ARV

           6       training, for example, would they be by the time they

           7       get to this?

           8   A.  About three or four weeks worth of training.  So that

           9       would be an officer who, prior to their training, would

          10       not necessarily have been involved in firearms in any

          11       way shape or form.

          12           Once they've had the range explained to them and

          13       what the purpose of the lesson is, we then give them

          14       a brief and the brief for that would be: "You're

          15       an officer, an ARV officer, on your way, patrolling, and

          16       you're calling called to the alarm sounding at

          17       Barclays Bank, deal with what you see".  That's all they

          18       get.

          19   Q.  That's then played to them with them, two of them,

          20       facing it with guns in their hands, is it?

          21   A.  Well, they would actually have their weapons in their

          22       holsters and we would explain to them, because it's

          23       a purpose around the national decision model which

          24       I know -- I believe has probably been explained already.

          25       So we talk to them about how they assess the




           1       information/intelligence and then, when we start to go

           2       through explaining threat assessment, one of the things

           3       we make it quite clear around is if there's a threat you

           4       have to apply your powers and policy and, in touching

           5       the firearm, actually that's use of the firearm because

           6       you've touched it.  If you draw it from its holster, if

           7       you point it or squeeze the trigger that is all

           8       constituted as a use of force and therefore the officer

           9       will then have to justify their actions and explain what

          10       they've done and why they've done it.

          11   Q.  In this scenario for example, if an officer facing that

          12       drew his gun, that would be something he would have to

          13       account to to the IPCC, is it?

          14   A.  Yes, and they have to provide that explanation during

          15       that scenario as well.

          16   Q.  Right.  Now, we'll have a look at it again in a minute

          17       but let's imagine you have just had -- you're a trainer,

          18       you have a classroom of trainees there, two of them with

          19       access to weapons laser weapons, have just seen that and

          20       they have reacted to it, one way or another.

          21           What happens in the debrief?  What would you do?

          22       What would you ask them?

          23   A.  We ask them very open questions around what was their

          24       recollection of events, what did they see, how did they

          25       feel.  But what we're very clear about is that we'll ask




           1       not together but we will ask them independently, in view

           2       of each other so they can hear what's being said, but

           3       we'll ask them to account for their individual

           4       recollection.

           5           So we'll take them through what they saw and we'll

           6       normally take them through according to the national

           7       decision model so we will ask them about -- first of

           8       all, "Tell me, what was the brief that I gave you?"

           9       We'll ask them then to feed that back to us and this is

          10       where we start to get some differences because people

          11       may recollect accurately what they were told in their

          12       brief and they may not.  They may agree and have the

          13       same opinion, but then we'll have the observer sat in

          14       the back of the classroom who may give a very different

          15       view.

          16           So we'll start to debrief questions such as "Explain

          17       to me what the subject" -- who we always refer to as the

          18       person that we're dealing with -- "Explain to me what

          19       the subject said.  What were they wearing?  What did

          20       they do?"

          21           Then we might get into some of the finer detail

          22       around what weapon were they holding.

          23           Then we want to test out whether they picked up new

          24       information intelligence because a key bit in that

          25       particular scenario would be "What did the subject say




           1       when they came out?" and an officer may say "I didn't

           2       hear anything because I was shouting at him to get on

           3       the floor".  Their colleague may say "Well, I heard him

           4       just swear", and I would say "Did you hear or what did

           5       the people observing, what did you hear?"

           6           We pick up on issues such as "Did you hear the

           7       subject say 'I'm not going back inside'?"  Because when

           8       we deal with judgement training, it's very much around

           9       what's the identity of the subject, do we know who they

          10       are, what's their capability, ie do they have a weapon

          11       do they have the ability to use lethal force and what's

          12       their intent?

          13           One of the things they give there quite clearly is

          14       a subject gives a statement of their intent which is

          15       "I am not going back inside" the reason that we tease

          16       that out of the officers is: (a) to see whether they

          17       picked up on it; and (b) does that then affect their

          18       mindset around what kind of threat that person now

          19       poses.

          20           The firearm -- their capability is such that the

          21       firearm is on the floor but they have made a clear

          22       intent now that they're not going back to prison.  So

          23       what is the officer going to do, how are they going to

          24       react to that and how are they going to manage that

          25       because is that a greater threat and is that threat now




           1       posed to the officer or is that threat actually posed to

           2       someone else.

           3           We'll then talk around things such as the wider

           4       issues such as did you see anyone else?  Some people

           5       pick up on the fact that they saw the woman in the tan

           6       coat walking past the door at the start.  Some people

           7       say "I didn't see a woman but I saw a woman inside".

           8       There's lots of different permutations according to what

           9       different people see.  One of the things we're trying to

          10       tease out is what wider perception did the officer have

          11       around what was going on in the scenario.

          12   Q.  Can we just have one more look at it then in the light

          13       of that explanation?

          14             (Training video was played to the court)

          15   A.  If I may, can I talk through some points that would be

          16       of common --

          17                    (The training video ended)

          18   Q.  Please.

          19   A.  What we would do is, once we have apply played the

          20       scenario through, we would debrief and then we play it

          21       back to the students and the people and we start to

          22       debrief it as we would do now.  So I would be saying, if

          23       one of the officers didn't pick up on the fact that

          24       there was a lady there, we would ask the question: "Why

          25       is that, why didn't you see them?"  Not in an accusatory




           1       way but just to try and establish with the officers

           2       whether they recollect seeing that person or not.

           3           The doors are painted that colour for a reason

           4       because a common question we'll ask of the subject when

           5       they walk out of the door is "What colour coat was the

           6       subject wearing?" and it's not uncommon for the officer

           7       to say he was wearing a red coat because the subject

           8       came out of the door which was red and they will

           9       remember the red but they can't necessarily remember the

          10       other things.

          11           So as we go through this we will ask them to say

          12       "Okay, did you see the number of people stood behind the

          13       bus stop, because there are five people behind there,

          14       did you see that or did you not see that?"

          15           Again, it's not about saying were you right or wrong

          16       it's about were you aware of these other things that are

          17       going on and the reason for that is we start to get into

          18       the realms of perceptual distortion.

          19           Perception is how we observe information and how we

          20       take that in.  When our bodies are under stress, we are

          21       aroused by means of there's a threat and we're under

          22       stress, our ability to take in the wider information

          23       becomes a lot less and we get what's commonly referred

          24       to as tunnel vision.  Some people are affected by it and

          25       some people aren't.




           1           In making those types of decisions we're then just

           2       exposing officers to the fact that this can happen.  We

           3       try to expose the officers to the fact that

           4       an individual's recollection of events may be different

           5       to someone else's.  It may be accurate or it may not.

           6           So that's why we discuss the perceptual distortion,

           7       not because it's going to happen but it may happen.

           8   Q.  All right.  Shall we play on a bit?

           9           (Training video was played to the court)

          10   A.  If I could pause it there.

          11                   (The training video ended)

          12           Common there, this is where we get, using the NDM we

          13       talk about the powers and policy issue which is critical

          14       to a firearms officer's role.  There you see the subject

          15       is coming out of the bookies, he has a shotgun in his

          16       right hand and he's pointing and shouting something

          17       which would suggest that there is someone inside the

          18       building.

          19           We ask officers "What were you doing?" and we will

          20       look at whether officers had drawn their firearm,

          21       whether they were using their firearm whether they were

          22       covering that threat or not, and we'll ask them to

          23       justify what they did or didn't do.  Some officers will

          24       see that as a threat, not necessarily to themselves, but

          25       they may form the opinion that that person is




           1       threatening someone inside the bookmaker's and therefore

           2       they may feel justified in drawing their weapon and

           3       covering the subject.

           4           If the other person does the same we'll ask the same

           5       question of them.  If they're not, then we will ask the

           6       individuals "Why did you do that and why didn't you do

           7       that?"  It's not about saying "You're right" or "You're

           8       wrong" but it's about exposing to the fact that we all

           9       see things and perceive things differently and it's to

          10       start bringing that out.

          11   Q.  All right.

          12             (Training video was played to the court)

          13   A.  At this point.

          14                    (The training video ended)

          15           One of the things that we would pick up, feeding

          16       back to the officers because obviously we are witnessing

          17       what the officers are doing -- as an instructor you're

          18       focussing on their actions, as well as what's happening

          19       on the screen -- is we would be saying "Okay, what is

          20       your recall of what he said, did you pick up on that new

          21       information?"

          22           Are they, at the time they are engaging with the

          23       subject on the screen are they using words and language

          24       to try and resolve the incident by means of "I hear what

          25       you're saying, lay down", you know, what are their




           1       communications, as that's all part of their training.

           2           So we will test and we will try and tease out from

           3       them what they're thinking around how they are going to

           4       deal with the subject as well, even though they have

           5       laid the firearm on the floor.

           6   Q.  Again, are you being judgemental here or, in the course

           7       of your debrief, are you just teasing out of the

           8       officers their thought processes?

           9   A.  It's all about the thought processes.  At no time do we

          10       ever say "That was right" or "That was wrong".  It is

          11       a common question that we get asked by the students

          12       about "Was I right in doing that?" and we always say the

          13       same and it's part of the lesson plan and part of the

          14       training notes: "It's not about what's right or wrong

          15       it's about how did you react to this situation, did you

          16       apply the principles of the national decision model in

          17       making your decisions and are you aware of or did you

          18       suffer the effects of stress or perceptual distortion?"

          19       It's asking those questions and exposing officers to

          20       that environment.

          21   Q.  Let me just ask this then: imagine you had a trainee

          22       who, with that man there, with his hands up, not

          23       obviously armed, shoots him.  You're saying you are not

          24       judgemental, how does he get to learn he shouldn't have

          25       shot him, assuming you accept that he shouldn't have




           1       shot him?

           2   A.  Well, what we do, we would ask the officer to justify

           3       their actions.  An officer may provide justification

           4       which some people in the room may find acceptable,

           5       others may not.  But we would not at any point say that

           6       was the wrong thing to do, unless we witness something

           7       which is what we call a critical safety failure.

           8           So if the officer drew their weapon and their

           9       pointing at the screen and their officer says something,

          10       they turn round to talk to their colleague and point the

          11       gun at them, even though it's a laser gun, for us that's

          12       a critical safety failure, because that's something

          13       they've been taught on the range previously that you

          14       never do: you never point your weapon unless you can

          15       justify doing so.

          16           So critical failure such as that.  If the officer

          17       fired and they said "Actually, I didn't mean to fire, it

          18       was an accident", then we would treat that as what we

          19       call an unintentional discharge, which again would be

          20       a critical safety failure.  But where they make

          21       a decision to shoot, they have to justify that.  If they

          22       decide not to shoot, they have to justify that as well.

          23   Q.  So let me press you on this.  Imagine I'm the trainee

          24       and I decide -- he's told me he's not going back inside

          25       I cannot see a way of getting hold of him except to




           1       shoot him, so I'm going to shoot him.  You are not going

           2       to criticise me for that?

           3   A.  We would challenge that robustly around their

           4       interpretation and use of law and what their

           5       justification is and I would suggest that if we saw

           6       something like this -- bearing in mind this is not done

           7       in isolation, there are weeks worth of training

           8       thereafter -- we would then create scenarios, and we

           9       have a number of scenarios we can use, to continue to

          10       expose the officer to that type of incident to see

          11       whether or not we believe that their threat assessment

          12       is actually one that deems them to be competent and safe

          13       or not.

          14           People do fail, not specifically in this lesson,

          15       because this is about the learning being how they react

          16       to this stress.  But in other scenarios we do create

          17       situations where, if they behave in a way which is

          18       either irrational or clearly cannot be justified, then

          19       they would fail the course for that.

          20   Q.  Shall we go on, please?

          21             (Training video was played to the court)

          22           Pause it there.

          23                    (The training video ended)

          24           Is that designed to put people in a situation where

          25       they have to decide whether to shoot or not?




           1   A.  In a way, it is.  However, the purpose of that is to

           2       create a scenario so that the subject does something

           3       which may provoke a reaction in that officer which,

           4       under normal situations, you could sit here, if you're

           5       watching this at home on a television, and see the

           6       person has their hand outstretched and someone has stood

           7       behind there with a camera with a flash going off.

           8           Under stress, that officer, their threat perception

           9       is such that this person has just carried out an armed

          10       robbery, or in their mind they think they have carried

          11       out an armed robbery, they have laid a firearm on the

          12       floor said, they have said they're not going back

          13       inside, they've then moved around, pointed their finger,

          14       they've seen a flash.  Have they been affected by

          15       stress, have they been affected by perceptual

          16       distortion, interpreting something which has not

          17       actually happened but in their mind it has, and then

          18       have they reacted accordingly or not?

          19           So it's getting officers to understand how they may

          20       react in a certain situation.  It's not about did the

          21       officer shoot or not shoot.  It's about what did the

          22       officer think and how did they react.

          23   Q.  In simple terms then, this is designed very sharply to

          24       illustrate the possibility that they may misunderstand

          25       something as a threat?




           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Unless there's anything else in that you want to debrief

           3       on?

           4   A.  I think the main point for me is that this all links

           5       back to training relevant to the national curriculum,

           6       which is your knowledge of the law and your

           7       understanding and application of the law, what factors

           8       affect your decision making and how the body can react

           9       to stress and how it can interpret things correctly or

          10       incorrectly dependent upon how the individual is

          11       affected by perception, by bias, by prior experience.

          12       So are they affected by any of those things which will

          13       affect how they will then behave.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do they go on to Barclays Bank

          15       after?

          16   A.  No.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that one of the trick questions?

          18   A.  We always -- whenever the scenario finishes, we finish

          19       it there.  We don't normally develop those scenarios

          20       within this situation.  But in live tactical training,

          21       we may have the scenario where the subject has walked

          22       off and actually, in reality -- the reality is that

          23       real-life incidents don't just stop at the end of

          24       a video clip, so we will then develop the officer's

          25       training so that they would then deal with the




           1       contingencies of someone walking off and possibly going

           2       into the bank and so forth.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Like, for example, the bank raid that they

           4       were actually called out on.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's what I meant.

           6   A.  I see, yes.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  All right, Officer.  Can we move from that to

           8       training for MASTS --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- mobile Armed Support to Surveillance and what I keep

          11       calling a hard stop.

          12           We have seen a training video for a hard stop.

          13       Plainly, if I may say so, it's designed to contain the

          14       people in the car by, if you like, shock and awe.  Is

          15       there training about what happens if somebody gets out

          16       of the car?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  What is that training?

          19   A.  Within any firearms operation, there's always the main

          20       objective, but there will always be, within the choice

          21       of tactics, what we're actually going to do, the

          22       contingencies, ie the things that may happen.

          23           We are alive to that within training and in fact

          24       it's part of the national curriculum that we have to

          25       teach people how to deal with things which may not




           1       follow the expected outcome.

           2           So we will teach people "If you get out of the

           3       car" -- "If the subject gets out of the car and runs

           4       away, how are you going to deal with that?"

           5           So there are a few things that we do to expose

           6       officers to that and make sure they understand it.  So

           7       the first thing for officers is that all firearms

           8       officers are actually trained to a higher level of

           9       fitness than the average police officer walking the

          10       beat, because there is a likelihood or a risk of that

          11       contingency happening, that someone may run away.

          12           We teach officers about how to park their cars, we

          13       teach officers how to get out of the vehicle and to try

          14       and move into a position that reduces the risk of that

          15       person escaping as quickly as possible.

          16           We will then test that and what we'll do is we'll

          17       give the first scenario in a training afternoon.  Maybe

          18       the subject, the stooge, will stay in the car and you'll

          19       surround the car and deal with the stooge in the car.

          20           The second scenario might be -- the briefing to the

          21       stooge will be: as soon as they stop the car, I want you

          22       to get out and I want you to run.  So we'll build them

          23       up in that building block approach, so we expose them to

          24       how it would go if it -- expected/to plan -- but then if

          25       they got -- and ran away; how would you then deal with




           1       that?

           2           Throughout all firearms training the key principle

           3       in dealing with any subject is to make sure you are

           4       contain them.  So the stooge will sometimes try and test

           5       that containment and they'll approach officers who are

           6       containing them to see if they are probe an area where

           7       they can escape through, and we'll get officers to

           8       understand the importance of getting a containment in

           9       place so that they are reducing the chances of that

          10       escape.

          11   Q.  I don't want to get us misled by what we've been

          12       focusing on in that video because in the video, of

          13       course, what we've posed is that the trainee has a gun

          14       and you're asking him to do something which tests his

          15       perception of his own perceptual distortion, if you

          16       like, and tests his psychological approach to this.

          17           Are people trained to deal with situations like that

          18       without using their gun, to do a rugby tackle, for

          19       example?

          20   A.  It all depends upon the threat that's being posed and

          21       that's why we focus on the application, the national

          22       decision model, and that an officer must establish

          23       what's the information and then what's the threat that

          24       I'm dealing with.  If there is clearly no threat, no

          25       imminent threat to life, the capability of the person




           1       they're dealing with is such that there is no lethal

           2       force or access to lethal force, there's no intent to

           3       hurt anyone, then the officer may be able to resolve

           4       that incident by means of communication and just talking

           5       that person into an arrest.

           6           So it all depends upon the threat level and the

           7       officers are taught to respond to that level of threat

           8       accordingly.

           9   Q.  So imagine a hard stop, in which -- in the training --

          10       somebody runs out of the car, they have clearly not got

          11       any armament or any weapon, would the first resort be,

          12       if the man is breaking through the cordon, to try and

          13       bring him down without using a weapon?

          14   A.  If the information is such that the person has got

          15       access to lethal force, whether it be a weapon or

          16       a knife, or they've got possession of, then, until

          17       there's a change of that information, the officer has to

          18       use that in their assessment of threat.

          19           So it may be appropriate that they could deal with

          20       them by means of a less lethal weapon, such as Taser, or

          21       if they have a baton gun, a baton gun but they have to

          22       consider the reasons as to why they are there and what

          23       information they have been given so they can make that

          24       threat assessment.

          25   Q.  They will be bearing in mind their continuing assessment




           1       of the threat, which is that that person has or may have

           2       access to a weapon and is trying to escape.  They are

           3       just going to have to judge it on the facts, are they?

           4   A.  They have to go on what they see in front of them what

           5       they've been told and, of course, if the information is

           6       specific around a firearm, depending upon the size of

           7       that firearm or the type of that firearm, that may be

           8       visible or it may not be visible, and that has to be

           9       part of the threat assessment as well.

          10   Q.  How specific is the training for this?  Do your stooges,

          11       your officers playing a subject, have weapons or --

          12   A.  Yes.  The stooges -- if we decide to have a scenario

          13       involving a stooge without a weapon, we may give the

          14       brief that a firearm has been seen but actually, when

          15       they search the subject, there's no firearm, because

          16       it's about their interpretation of what's the

          17       information, how do they then have that threat

          18       assessment.  Similarly, we might have a stooge there

          19       with a weapon and if the officer doesn't resort to using

          20       their firearm, we would then question, well, actually

          21       are they putting themselves at risk or other people at

          22       risk because of the fact that they'd made an assessment

          23       of threat, which is very different to how other people

          24       would make that threat assessment.

          25           So it's very specific, we have different options




           1       dependent upon what learning outcomes we want to

           2       achieve.  So if we want to see how an officer reacts by

           3       using a Taser, we will create the scenario that actually

           4       that threshold for an officer firing their weapon is not

           5       met because we will brief the stooge to say "Be

           6       compliant, clearly demonstrate your weapon you've got is

           7       in your waistband or down by the side of your foot, do

           8       not go to touch your weapon, stand there, be compliant

           9       and then see how the officer reacts with you", because

          10       we want to elicit that response from the officer, as

          11       opposed to a more -- a higher threshold of response.

          12   Q.  Is it any part of the training that a stooge will get

          13       out of the car and bring a gun out of a waistband or

          14       a jacket?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  The only other area I want to ask you about very briefly

          17       is post-incident management; are you at all trained in

          18       that?

          19   A.  Yes, I am.

          20   Q.  Can you help us about the way in which Post-Incident

          21       Managers are involved in the investigation, if at all,

          22       of an incident?

          23   A.  We train the Post-Incident Managers in the same way as

          24       we teach all firearms training.  A Post-Incident Manager

          25       is one of the number of role profiles that exist and in




           1       that course of instruction we expose and we train the

           2       Post-Incident Managers to understand what their

           3       responsibilities are according to the Manual of

           4       Guidance.

           5           We make it quite clear within the lesson plan, and

           6       notes and outcomes, that they are there to facilitate

           7       the investigation, ie they are there to allow the

           8       investigators to carry out their function whilst also

           9       ensuring the protection and welfare of the officers

          10       involved in the incident.

          11           So they are there as a facilitator.  We make it

          12       quite clear their responsibility is not to investigate.

          13   Q.  If I'm asking you things beyond your experience and

          14       expertise in the next minute or two, let me know.

          15       I want to ask you about initial accounts.

          16           You've carefully explained to the jury how trainees

          17       are inducted into perceptual distortion, if you like,

          18       and how you debrief them afterwards to demonstrate that.

          19           Are they taught that their memory is going to be

          20       better 48 hours or so later?

          21   A.  No.  We don't explain to officers what will happen to

          22       them because we don't know how individuals are going to

          23       react.  What we do explain to them is, through the

          24       judgement training you've seen, the effects that can

          25       happen because of the different factors that exist, such




           1       as stress, such as arousal, such as perceptual

           2       distortion.  What we do make quite clear to officers is

           3       that they have an individual responsibility to provide

           4       an accurate recollection and reflection of events.  So

           5       we make it quite clear.

           6           The Post-Incident Managers, we again train them to

           7       make sure that they follow the processes that are

           8       outlined in the Manual of Guidance, and that's their

           9       responsibility to do that.  We don't train Post-Incident

          10       Managers to tell officers what to write or what not to

          11       write.  We only teach Post-Incident Managers to tell the

          12       officers that they have to write an accurate

          13       recollection of their events.  How that's managed is

          14       then according to that process, whether it be initial

          15       accounts or the detailed accounts later on.

          16   Q.  Would this be fair: at the end of the training, even as

          17       an ARV officer, officers would understand that their

          18       ability to recall things, either immediately afterwards

          19       or perhaps better a little later after the event, is

          20       a very individual one according to their own psychology

          21       and physiology?

          22   A.  Yes, officers will recollect things differently and that

          23       is a human, you know -- issue, human function.

          24   Q.  Their ability to recall things, at best either

          25       immediately afterwards or at best a little later is very




           1       much an individual thing; would that be fair?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, Superintendent.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           5           Mr Mansfield, any questions?

           6   MR MANSFIELD:  Sir, I don't know if you were wanting a break

           7       or not.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I was thinking about it but I was

           9       thinking that there might be a break between this

          10       witness and the next.

          11   MR MANSFIELD:  I might be a little time with this officer.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If that's your feeling then perhaps

          13       we'll have our break now for those in front of me.

          14           So, members of the jury, thank you very much, we'll

          15       ask for the cameras to be turned off.


           8   (3.14 pm)

           9                         (A short break)

          10   (3.31 pm)

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Can we have the jury in,

          12       please, and cameras off.

          13                  (In the presence of the jury)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Dobinson, you are

          15       still under the oath or affirmation that you have taken

          16       already and Mr Mansfield wants to ask you some

          17       questions.

          18                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          19   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon, Officer.  I'm Michael

          20       Mansfield, I represent the family of Mark Duggan.

          21   A.  Good afternoon.

          22   Q.  May I begin by asking you some questions about an area

          23       you haven't so far dealt with but I am sure you may be

          24       in a position to deal with it.  It's armed intervention

          25       generally and the options that are open to the police in



           1       various scenarios.  That's the area.

           2           Now, one of the options that the jury have heard

           3       about in this case, I want to ask you a little more

           4       about, that's call-out and containment; you're familiar

           5       with that?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  According to the evidence we've heard so far, it is

           8       regarded by various firearms authorities as one of the

           9       safest options available; do you agree?

          10   A.  In the context of vehicles or premises/buildings, in

          11       what sense?

          12   Q.  Premises.

          13   A.  It can have advantages, yes.

          14   Q.  Yes.  If there's going to be a call-out and containment

          15       exercise, I use that term because that's how it's been

          16       described, the officers doing that, where do they come

          17       from?

          18   A.  The officers carrying out the actual function of the

          19       containment?

          20   Q.  Yes.

          21   A.  They may be any number of different role profiles so

          22       they may be ARV officers, TST officers, all firearms

          23       officers are trained in the basic skills of containment.

          24   Q.  Containment in relation to premises?

          25   A.  Yes, containing a subject, depending upon where they may




           1       be.

           2   Q.  Obviously premises have a particular configuration but

           3       I just want to deal with premises for the moment.  I'll

           4       come to other situations in a moment.  So when there's

           5       a call-out and containment, let us say -- I'm going to

           6       be particular -- to an ordinary house, an ordinary house

           7       in London -- I know there may be all sorts of ordinary

           8       houses, but let's say a two-storey semi-detached or

           9       a two-storey terraced house; you understand what I'm

          10       talking about?

          11   A.  Yes, I do.

          12   Q.  In those circumstances, have officers been trained to

          13       deal with that kind of situation?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Because obviously there will be the likelihood of

          16       a front door and a back door, and so forth.  So you have

          17       to think about all the various methods of entrance and

          18       egress and so on.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Is there a set number of officers or strategies that are

          21       used in this certain circumstance.  So if you get called

          22       out to, you know, number 54 Balls Pond Road, do you send

          23       four vehicles three vehicles or no vehicles; how does it

          24       work?

          25   A.  It depends upon the layout.  So we would apply -- the




           1       Commander would apply the national decision model, they

           2       would look at what the information is.  So, in the

           3       scenario -- it's very difficult to be precise with this

           4       particular example because of the number of variables

           5       that are applicable in these types of situations.

           6       However you would want to make sure you had sufficient

           7       numbers of officers to properly contain that premises.

           8       So you reduce the chance of that person escaping or

           9       breaking out of that containment.

          10   Q.  So basically you have to cover the front and the back of

          11       the premises and you have to have sufficient officers to

          12       ensure that if someone does try to climb out of a window

          13       or run or whatever you have enough officers to contain

          14       the person once outside the house?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  In terms of going into the house, are there various

          17       protocols for that?

          18   A.  There are, yes.

          19   Q.  I'm doing it fairly quickly, presumably, would this be

          20       right, there would be warnings issued, loud speakers

          21       used, or whatever is necessary, to communicate with

          22       whoever is on the inside?

          23   A.  The commander will make a decision based on the advice

          24       they have been given by the Tactical Advisor but they

          25       would be given a whole number of different options




           1       available, depending upon what the situation involves.

           2           So it may be appropriate that we want to contain the

           3       building without letting the person know that we're

           4       there because the person we're looking to arrest is

           5       directly threatening someone inside the building, and we

           6       don't want to compromise that.  We might want to have

           7       an overt display of the officers around the building to

           8       demonstrate to the occupant that we are there.  So there

           9       are different scenarios applicable to different tactics

          10       and different ways of dealing with it.

          11   Q.  So if you are dealing with a two-up/two-down, an

          12       ordinary terraced or semi-detached house, and the

          13       intelligence is that inside the house -- it's not

          14       a hostage situation, nobody is being threatened, but the

          15       person in the house is storing two to three weapons and

          16       there are two people in there; is that a situation

          17       you've obviously countenanced before?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  In addition to containing the premises, you have

          20       accessories.  What I'm going to suggest to you is, it is

          21       possible to have armed surveillance of the premises in

          22       a discreet way before you actually do the containment?

          23       So you have somebody hidden in the street, either in

          24       a vehicle or disguised as something or perhaps a little

          25       distance away or in other premises?




           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  That is all very valuable information that you might get

           3       to assess how you're going to deal with it?

           4   A.  As long as the resources are available, yes.

           5   Q.  Yes, of course.  That's predicated on resource

           6       availability.

           7           Now, I know it's how long is a piece of string, but

           8       how long would it take, supposing, you know, there's

           9       a call that goes into wherever, a central agency in

          10       central London, and we gather there is a central agency,

          11       to actually mount a call-out and containment?  Does it

          12       take a matter of minutes or it takes an hour or --

          13   A.  I do not wish to be evasive but it is how long is

          14       a piece of string.  All I can explain to you is the

          15       process and the process is that a call is received and

          16       resources are mobilised and allocated to that incident

          17       depending upon what other commitments there are and how

          18       many resources we have on the ground.

          19           The Commander would want to ensure they have the

          20       right level of resources with the right skills,

          21       appropriately trained and equipped to then deal with

          22       that incident.

          23   Q.  All right, I have to deal with it in a slightly

          24       different way.  In other words, it could be within

          25       20 minutes in London or it could take a couple of hours?




           1   A.  It depends on the nature of the incident but we do have

           2       response times for our marked armed response vehicles

           3       that will react spontaneously to an incident and we will

           4       try to achieve those response times and get the

           5       resources there so we can deal with that incident.  So

           6       it may be very quick.  It may be a number of hours,

           7       dependent upon whether it needs more specialist

           8       resources.

           9   Q.  So what is a marked response times for call-out and

          10       containment, are you able to indicate those?

          11   A.  Well, the containment and call-out may be a product of

          12       what actually happened so it might be something that we

          13       choose to use in order to resolve that incident.  But

          14       not every incident will necessarily involve

          15       a containment and call-out.  There are other tactical

          16       options available dependent upon what the nature of the

          17       incident is.

          18   Q.  Sorry, I just want to persevere a little bit.  Of course

          19       it could be spontaneous, a call-out and containment

          20       because somebody, a member of the public, has rung up.

          21       But on the other hand it could be part of a preplanned

          22       operation, couldn't it?

          23   A.  It could, yes.

          24   Q.  If it's part of a preplanned operation you would want

          25       to, in advance, ensure you have the resources that way




           1       round.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  So that way round, again, whether it's preplanned or

           4       spontaneous, you have obviously been familiar with

           5       response times, would it be right to say that something

           6       like that could be mounted within half an hour?

           7   A.  Yes, it could.

           8   Q.  Thank you.  I move on from that then to a different form

           9       of intervention, armed intervention, whereby obviously

          10       you do it on foot.  The officers who do it on foot have

          11       to get there somehow so they may be from a vehicle but

          12       they may arrive in other ways.

          13           Would it be an ARV that would take an armed officer

          14       to a situation to intervene with somebody on the street

          15       who has a gun?

          16   A.  It depends upon the nature of the scenario.  So if it's

          17       a spontaneous incident it's likely to have an ARV

          18       response.  If it's a planned ongoing operation then it

          19       may be a TST or a SFO team that are deployed to resolve

          20       that.  But it depends upon what's happening.

          21       An intervention is a particular type of tactic used to

          22       intervene between the threat and normally something like

          23       a hostage or a person who's been threatened.

          24           An interception is where there's a plan to arrest

          25       somebody at a particular location or time or when the




           1       opportune time arrives.

           2   Q.  Can I just shift it forward again.  Let's deal with

           3       an interception -- as opposed to an intervention -- with

           4       the use of vehicles.  Now, an interception with the use

           5       of vehicles, can that happen with ARVs or other vehicles

           6       or is it a specialist exercise only done by certain

           7       squads?

           8   A.  It's a tactic that's performed by a number of different

           9       role profiles and the role profiles that we have within

          10       the Metropolitan Police and nationally are ARVs and

          11       those trained in MASTS.  In the Met we have TST officers

          12       and SFOs that are trained in MASTS.

          13   Q.  Right.  Now, whichever of the profiles for the moment

          14       I leave to one side, but those are the people capable of

          15       carrying out the interception.

          16           Now, in relation to those, I want to take you

          17       through the various possibilities.  Now, first of all,

          18       do you have training for interception of a vehicle that

          19       is stationary, in other words it's parked?

          20   A.  Yes, we do.

          21   Q.  Could you kindly explain what they are?  I really don't

          22       want to involve you in anything that compromises you but

          23       just the sort -- so the jury have some idea what's

          24       possible.

          25   A.  Yes.  We have three types of stop: we have what we call




           1       a natural stop, which is, like you said, a static stop

           2       where the vehicle may be static in a car park; we have

           3       a compliance stop, which is where the vehicle that's

           4       being followed is indicated to stop by the police and

           5       they pull over and they stop, they are being compliant;

           6       and we have an enforced stop, which is where the vehicle

           7       is effectively brought to a halt because of the way the

           8       police officer cars will move in.

           9           Within a natural stop, or normal stop, where that

          10       vehicle is there, the officers will then deploy and they

          11       have a number of different ways of deploying.  They may

          12       walk up to the car with their weapon in their holster

          13       and carry out just an Inquiry, depending upon the nature

          14       of the incident, the threat that's there, the

          15       information and so forth.  They may carry out

          16       a containment of that vehicle and call that person out

          17       of the vehicle or they may carry out an extraction where

          18       they go forward, they open the doors and they forcibly

          19       remove the driver and other occupants from the vehicle.

          20   Q.  Just concentrate on that one before I move through the

          21       other two.  You posited a car park but, of course, it

          22       might be a car parked in a street?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  You would expect, using the model that we've all heard

          25       about so many times, that this would be something going




           1       through the minds -- and you have been a Tactical

           2       Firearms Commander and a Strategic Firearms Commander --

           3       this option of, if you like, containing a static car is

           4       something that all Commanders would be familiar with.

           5   A.  All Commanders are trained in what the vehicle options

           6       are, as are the officers that are trained those options

           7       as well, yes.

           8   Q.  In terms of a parked car, you could -- as you said, you

           9       could contain it, in one sense, by getting officers on

          10       foot to contain it or you could contain it by using

          11       vehicles to prevent its departure from the place where

          12       it's parked.  I'll split it up.

          13           First of all, you could get the officers on foot to

          14       contain the car; is that right?

          15   A.  Normally -- it all depends how you control the vehicle

          16       itself.  Because of the risks that the vehicle poses to

          17       those officers that may be on foot.

          18           But I think, in answer to your question, we train

          19       all of those options, so that those options are already

          20       available to the Commander as and when they make

          21       a decision as to how they want to progress.

          22   Q.  All right, I won't take it further.

          23           Now, in one sense, would you accept this, that the

          24       ability to contain a parked car has certain -- either on

          25       foot or with another police vehicle so it cannot drive




           1       away -- has certain advantages over trying to enforce

           2       a stop with a mobile car, does it not?

           3   A.  There are advantages of it, yes.

           4   Q.  The advantages are -- I'll put it round the other way.

           5       Some of the complications, once you're on the move, are

           6       that you might compromise surveillance, you might lose

           7       the vehicle you're following, you might get caught up in

           8       all sorts of difficult traffic conditions and so,

           9       therefore, you're no longer having as much control as

          10       you have over a vehicle that is parked.  That's -- would

          11       that be a fair analysis?

          12   A.  I think it would.  I come back to my initial point that

          13       we train all these options so that the Commander has

          14       a choice about what option to use, dependent upon where

          15       they are in the operation and whether the decision is

          16       made to arrest or not to arrest but our function is to

          17       make sure that people are appropriately trained to give

          18       the options available for the Commander.

          19   Q.  Yes, thank you.  Just a final stage on this.  Are the

          20       Firearms Commanders, Tactical and Strategic, trained --

          21       sorry, does part of their training involve

          22       a recognition -- we've called it a hard stop -- but that

          23       a hard stop, or an enforced stop, is a high risk

          24       strategy, for a number of the reasons I have just spelt

          25       out; are they told that?




           1   A.  It's not labelled as a high risk tactic because you may

           2       have a containment of a building that has inherent high

           3       risks by virtue of the number of people inside, the

           4       number of vulnerable people, the layout of the building.

           5       So any tactic may be high risk, dependent upon the

           6       circumstances in which it's used.

           7   Q.  The reason I'm asking you is that you -- I don't know

           8       whether you're familiar with some of the observations

           9       that have been made in relation to previous cases.  I'm

          10       going to be specific because this is one I have put to

          11       other witnesses: Azelle Rodney?

          12   A.  I am aware, yes.

          13   Q.  There were observations made there about the risks

          14       attached to a hard stop.

          15   A.  (Nods)

          16   Q.  Are you aware of that?

          17   A.  I am aware of those comments, yes.

          18   Q.  Are those observations communicated on the ground?

          19   A.  Those specific recommendations or comments, to my

          20       knowledge, I don't know whether they've been

          21       communicated or not to officers on the ground.  What

          22       I do know is that, as a result of the activity that

          23       takes place, the Commanders are fully aware of the

          24       ongoing risks around any of the tactics and, therefore,

          25       it's appropriate that they are informed through their




           1       training around the use of those tactics, the impact and

           2       consequences of what may or may not happen and it's for

           3       them to make that decision on whether or not to adopt

           4       that particular type of policing activity or not.

           5   Q.  Yes.  Well, the senior officer in this case -- I'll

           6       specify who it is -- V59, said that he had not actually

           7       had those matters communicated.  I don't mean in the

           8       form of "This is the Azelle Rodney report", but in terms

           9       of the substance of what the recommendation is.  He

          10       didn't know of those?

          11   A.  To my knowledge it's not a recommendation, I believe

          12       it's an observation.  I don't understand -- I don't

          13       believe that it's a specific recommendation.

          14   Q.  It's an observation which is intended to inform, is it

          15       not?

          16   A.  All I can say from the training perspective is there's

          17       been no directive to change the national curriculum that

          18       still contains the teaching material for that particular

          19       type of tactic.

          20   Q.  In fact, I just want to -- I really don't want to take

          21       more time on it than is necessary but since we're

          22       dealing with training today, could we have 29795,

          23       please, up on the screen.

          24           Now, you'll see in the middle of the page,

          25       paragraph 25.7, in fact it is contained in




           1       a recommendation.  This is Azelle Rodney and in fact it

           2       comes from an earlier report by the IPCC, this

           3       paragraph.  It's recommendation 5 in relation to

           4       an earlier report in December 2005.  You see there some

           5       of the words I've used.  Shall I just read it to you and

           6       see if this rings any bells:

           7           "This operation was carried out in line with current

           8       tactics approved and trained under ACPO guidelines.

           9       A hard stop is a high risk option which should only be

          10       instigated after the risks have been measured against

          11       the possible benefits or necessity.  There is a risk to

          12       members of the public, the suspects, and the officers

          13       concerned who may be at the location.  The speed and

          14       congratulation of the stop, which can ensure its success

          15       could also pause problems, in that the suspects have

          16       a very limited time to assess what is happening to them

          17       and, as would be hoped, surrender.  If their compliance

          18       and surrender is not virtually instantaneous the options

          19       available to the police officers are restricted and the

          20       risks to the suspects are considerable.  I believe that

          21       ACPO and the MPS should carry out regular reviews of

          22       tactics and methods used by firearms team and

          23       re-evaluate them in light of advances in technology and

          24       experiences."

          25           It's clearly a set of observations under the heading




           1       of a recommendation; were you familiar with that?

           2   A.  I'm familiar with the fact that one of the

           3       recommendations is that there should be a peer review

           4       and I understand that has been place and that would

           5       involve a review of tactics in those matters.

           6   Q.  In relation to hard stops?

           7   A.  In relation to the recommendation and a peer review of

           8       the operation, which would have involved that type of

           9       tactic.

          10   Q.  All right.  I want to develop this a little bit further

          11       in terms of the training video which has been shown this

          12       afternoon.  Because there's another aspect of the

          13       training.  I am now moving from the mobile situation

          14       back into a fixed situation.

          15           Now, the first point I want to ask you about in

          16       relation to this is you have made it very clear that the

          17       object of the exercise is to get the individual police

          18       officer, who is training to be experienced in firearms,

          19       to understand how he or she reacts.  That's the first

          20       point.

          21   A.  It's for them to experience that and become aware of it,

          22       yes.

          23   Q.  The reason why they need to become aware of it is so

          24       that they know how to accommodate any fallibilities or

          25       strengths that they may have.




           1   A.  The outcome is linked with the national curriculum

           2       material, which is knowledge of the law and procedure,

           3       so they can apply the national decision model in their

           4       actions, and in the second part is so that they can

           5       demonstrate the learning that they have had in the first

           6       few weeks around how they can hold fire, manipulate,

           7       handle a weapon safely.

           8           The extra bit around it is the fact that it exposes

           9       them to a reality because we train for reality and

          10       officers need to be aware of how situations with armed

          11       subjects can occur.

          12   Q.  If I can take a step back.  I understand all of that.

          13           The first stage in this process is to ensure that

          14       the individual, before we ever get to applying the law

          15       or any other models, has to have an understanding of

          16       their own abilities, if you like, and their own

          17       vulnerabilities, before they even get to that stage, in

          18       other words how do they react under stress, how

          19       perceptive are they, obviously, one of the things you've

          20       been talking about, and how their recollection is

          21       affected.  All those things you have talked about, all

          22       relate to the individual, do they not?

          23   A.  Yes, yes.

          24   Q.  You would agree?  It's training them, over many -- I am

          25       not going through how many hours you do, three hours on




           1       that one training film perhaps, and you have more

           2       training films -- this takes place regularly, people get

           3       retraining, do they at all, with firearms?

           4   A.  No.  What normally happens this judgement -- this

           5       judgement training scenario is introduced in their basic

           6       foundation training and thereafter we don't revisit it

           7       in that format.

           8   Q.  Dealing with just the foundation side of it, you want to

           9       be sure, as a firearms instructor, that by the time

          10       they've been through this process, that they have

          11       recognised what their strengths and weaknesses are,

          12       personally, before we ever get to applying the law?

          13   A.  I think it's about ensuring that they understand what

          14       can happen in those situations because we have to expose

          15       them to reality, but of course we can't immerse them in

          16       reality within training.

          17   Q.  No, no, I follow that.  But you have to ensure, as far

          18       as you humanly can, as an instructor -- because you

          19       don't want to let just any old person out on the street,

          20       that's obvious.  You have to make sure, as far as is

          21       possible, that the officer who's going to be entrusted

          22       with a lethal weapon is somebody who you have exposed to

          23       these things, these various stresses and these various

          24       situations, so that you can assess when you do the

          25       debrief, the extent to which that individual officer has




           1       understood himself.

           2   A.  Yes.  I think that's a fair point but all I would say is

           3       it's not a test for them, they don't have to pass or

           4       fail it.  It's about them understanding and being

           5       exposed to it because we want to train for reality.

           6   Q.  Exactly.  So the factors that you have mentioned -- you

           7       have mentioned that there are factors that they have to

           8       be aware of, factors being the stress, factors being

           9       that they might be distracted by things that are not

          10       relevant, and so on.  So they have to -- it's a learning

          11       process for them, is it not?

          12   A.  It's a learning -- it's a learning process of them

          13       developing their awareness.

          14   Q.  Yes, all right.  Once they've gone through that stage,

          15       in other words learning how they react and obviously the

          16       jury have seen the film themselves this afternoon, then

          17       you're, as it were, introducing other factors into this.

          18       That is the question of applying the law of necessity of

          19       firing and so on, to shoot or not to shoot is, I think,

          20       how you sometimes introduce that package.  So you have

          21       nodded, I think you mean yes?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Yes, fine.  Dealing just for a moment with one of these

          24       factors, perceptual distortion, which has cropped up now

          25       and again.  In fact, the risk factor attached to




           1       perceptual distortion is that you might, as it were, not

           2       perceive what is on the margins, in other words you

           3       become so focused that extraneous matter -- I think you

           4       have called it tunnel vision at one time -- you have

           5       such tunnel vision that actually other factors, like the

           6       colour of the door, how many people are on the

           7       pavement -- I am just dealing with the particular --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  The colour of the door, the people on the pavement, and

          10       so on, you actually are so focused on, let us say, the

          11       gun, that you don't -- in that case the shotgun to begin

          12       with, that you exclude other matters?

          13   A.  Yes, and that training I think, as I described earlier,

          14       can expose that and -- but it's very much around the

          15       individual's recollection.  So they may focus on the

          16       gun, they may focus on the people running away or they

          17       may focus on what they considered to be the initial

          18       threat which was people inside the bookmaker's.  So it's

          19       very difficult to establish what they will focus on but

          20       it can happen and that's part of the point of it.

          21   Q.  So they soon realise -- how soon is a matter of

          22       individual experience.  They certainly begin the process

          23       of understanding what they tend to do and what,

          24       therefore, might be a risk factor for them if they

          25       continue doing it.




           1           So it's a learning process in which they either

           2       extend their perceptions so that they take in far more.

           3       So can I give you a precise example: when the same

           4       student comes back to the same scenario on the film, the

           5       next time around, there may be a very different reaction

           6       to it; has that been done on the training?

           7   A.  We don't expose the same officers to the same scenarios

           8       because it would be pointless because they know what's

           9       happening.  But I think the key to this is that officers

          10       need to understand that, within their response, they may

          11       undergo those physiological changes, they may or they

          12       may not undergo perceptual distortion.

          13           So therefore the key point is they recognise how

          14       their body reacts and their body may react the same way

          15       the next time, it may alter slightly.  It varies upon

          16       the individual.

          17   Q.  All right.  One of the -- I think Mr Underwood sort of

          18       touched upon it slightly -- I don't ask for it to be

          19       shown again but I think everybody can remember -- there

          20       are a number of situations in that short video where

          21       an officer, or somebody who's holding a firearm

          22       themselves and has come to the situation.  There are

          23       a number of stages at which you might or might not

          24       produce your weapon to deal with it.  So the first one

          25       is when the man comes out of the bookmakers and is




           1       clearly holding a shot gun: stage 1.

           2           Stage 2 is obviously when he puts it down and starts

           3       to back off, and says he's not going back in and all the

           4       rest of it.  So that is stage 2.

           5           The question is, taking it in stages, is the officer

           6       being asked at any stage, if he produces a gun, plainly

           7       "What was the necessity to hold your gun or point it at

           8       the man when he's coming out?" and is he asked about

           9       other options?  I'll split it up.  Is he asked about if

          10       he's produced a gun what was the necessity to produce

          11       a gun?

          12   A.  Yes, always.

          13   Q.  Secondly, if he has shot the person dead at that point,

          14       let us say, on the screen, by the use of the laser gun,

          15       is he then asked to examine that situation as to not

          16       only whether it was necessary but the second part,

          17       whether there were other options?

          18   A.  They will be asked what was your decision making, why

          19       did you do what you did, what other options would you

          20       have considered?

          21   Q.  Right.  Dealing with the options -- I am just going to

          22       interpose another factor in the training video so that

          23       the jury may get a fuller picture of what's open and

          24       available.

          25           You mentioned in the briefing that there was an ARV




           1       round the corner, he had arrived with an ARV?

           2   A.  (Nods)

           3   Q.  So it's unlikely he's there on his own?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  There will be other armed officers.  So is it then

           6       discussed, broadened out to discuss how, in other words,

           7       short of actually shooting him dead you might contain

           8       the situation with other armed officers from the car; is

           9       that how it develops?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  It does.  Right, just moving to the second stage.

          12       Presumably, all of these factors apply to the second

          13       stage where he's backing away -- he's put the bag down

          14       with his left hand, put the shotgun down with his right

          15       hand, he's backing away, saying he doesn't want to go

          16       inside and then something happens further down the

          17       street with the camera behind, and so on.

          18           Again, the same questions are being asked.  If you

          19       shoot that person as he's backing away was it necessary,

          20       were there any options with the officers round the

          21       corner to deal with that man so he doesn't escape

          22       because he's obviously committed some kind of robbery.

          23       All of that's discussed; is that right?

          24   A.  It is throughout their training but if we are talking

          25       about a specific training lesson.  We have to ensure the




           1       outcomes are achievable and, of course, we start to get

           2       into a whole area of containment options, pursuit of

           3       subjects on foot, how we deal with subjects, subject

           4       handling, less lethal options.  There's a lot of other

           5       learning there that is visited throughout the course.

           6       But for this particular lesson, the learning outcomes

           7       are can they apply the principles in the nation decision

           8       model in taking their actions and how do they -- and to

           9       recognise the effects of stress, arousal and so forth.

          10       So we don't pursue things that far because otherwise the

          11       lesson would go on forever.

          12   Q.  I will just move on.  Therefore there are other

          13       practical training exercises where it is developed --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- as to the other options?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  I want to just go back to -- you have been asked about

          18       one of them.  The one I want to ask you about: if you've

          19       been briefed as a firearms officer that the person

          20       you're dealing with is an escaper, is likely to do

          21       a runner, then -- and you definitely don't want to shoot

          22       them dead if you can avoid it, what are the tactics, if

          23       you like, of dealing on the ground with somebody who's

          24       running from a vehicle, first of all, with no gun?

          25   A.  Well, if you've got specific intelligence that says they




           1       are going to escape, then you will try and develop your

           2       tactic so that you mitigate and reduce the chance of

           3       that.

           4           But with any firearms operation, which involves

           5       mobile, there's the contingency of the person escaping.

           6       So we train officers how to pursue subjects, we make

           7       sure that they are of a standard of fitness that, in

           8       order they become a firearms officer that they are

           9       physically able to give chase.  In training scenarios

          10       we'll create scenarios, as I said earlier, where the

          11       stooge will run and officers are then trained and

          12       demonstrate how they will pursue together, so they're

          13       working together as a pair but of course it goes back to

          14       the initial planning so that you try and plan out that

          15       contingency from happening.

          16   Q.  Right.  So if you've got the usual, as it were,

          17       assignment of cars, there are three plus a control car

          18       here, with a number of officers in each of the cars and

          19       there's a risk that somebody -- I'm not suggesting they

          20       had intelligence that he would, just that there's a risk

          21       of this, one officer has talked about it -- so if

          22       there's a risk that he might, I just want to get a clear

          23       picture for the jury that -- what would the officers be

          24       expected to do once they get onto the pavement around

          25       the car.  What are they supposed to do to contain a man




           1       without a gun, first of all?

           2   A.  Well they would be expected to demonstrate, by means of

           3       where they stand, where they position themselves, and

           4       how they then provide clear audible commands to that

           5       person to comply with their directions to then minimise

           6       the chances of them escaping and increase the chances of

           7       them being compliant and to do as they've been told to

           8       do.

           9   Q.  In the passage that I just read to you, you may

          10       remember -- that was in the Azelle Rodney case -- of

          11       course this all happens quite quickly.  So if the person

          12       doesn't appear to comply, or is in the process of maybe

          13       complying but you haven't quite understood whether

          14       that's happening -- that the officer is left with

          15       limited options or is he still instructed there are

          16       still other options you can use?  This is somebody

          17       without a gun.

          18   A.  There are options there.  By working as a team, first of

          19       all, the options are you have sufficient numbers there

          20       to physically prevent that person from going past you.

          21       Officers carry other options, whether it be a baton,

          22       whether it be a Taser, whether it be unarmed defensive

          23       techniques to try and control that person if they are

          24       running towards them and they are posing a threat.  If

          25       they are unarmed, but again it comes back to the




           1       intelligence around whether they were armed or whether

           2       they were not armed and just because you cannot see the

           3       weapon, if that is what the intelligence says there is,

           4       doesn't mean they haven't got immediate access to

           5       a weapon.

           6           So that is why we take those different scenarios and

           7       train those to expose the officers to the different

           8       things that can happen.

           9   Q.  I just want to ask you quickly about Tasers because we

          10       have had some evidence about it.  What is the training

          11       in Tasers: it would be something that could be use to

          12       contain an escaper?

          13   A.  It depends on the level of threat.  If the threat is

          14       from a lethal weapon such as a firearm, you would not be

          15       reliant upon a Taser as your primary means of

          16       controlling that subject because the Taser may not

          17       function and it may not do exactly what you want it to

          18       do.

          19   Q.  It may not be the primary but it's certainly something

          20       that should be, admittedly considered quickly, but

          21       considered?

          22   A.  When we train people we train them in the weapons that

          23       they will be using, including the deployment of Taser

          24       within the training scenarios of officers who have

          25       access to Taser.




           1   Q.  Because you can disable somebody -- I appreciate

           2       assuming it works and you are close enough -- you can

           3       disable somebody so they are unable to actually provide

           4       the threat anymore?

           5   A.  You can incapacitate people with Tasers, yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's not just a question of training

           7       one person to use all different things, but as a group

           8       you could have one person with a gun, we know one with

           9       a Hatton gun for the tyres, someone else with a Taser?

          10   A.  That's right.  That's how we train people in MASTS

          11       formations, that not everyone will be carrying a Taser

          12       in the same way as not everyone will be carrying

          13       a shotgun.

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  Can I just ask you this: if you have

          15       encircled somebody who's got out of a car, so you have

          16       people on one side and people the other side -- in this

          17       particular case there's a fence, so there's a fence,

          18       a car and two semicircles of officers.  The ones who are

          19       behind the person, is there a protocol for them?  This

          20       is with Tasers.  Would an officer behind a person who

          21       appears to be running be able or authorised or have the

          22       discretion to use a Taser from behind or is it only

          23       instructed from in front.

          24   A.  No.  We train people to use Taser on a subject, it

          25       doesn't matter whether they're facing them or not, but




           1       we train them in the context that they have to

           2       understand what the threat is and what they're going up

           3       again and therefore we train them in a myriad of

           4       different weapons and equipment so that the Commander,

           5       when he makes the decision -- he or she makes the

           6       decision around what they're going to do, has the

           7       ability to make sure that the operation is successfully

           8       resolved and that threat is dealt with and that includes

           9       recourse to less lethal weapons such as Taser as part of

          10       those series of options.

          11   Q.  Leaving aside the Commander, obviously planning that in

          12       advance or even on the ground at the time, the

          13       individual officer -- because we understand each car has

          14       at least one Taser in it, of the three cars I'm talking

          15       about -- the individual officer whose usual duty is to

          16       carry one, he or she would have a discretion as to when

          17       to use it, even if the Commander hadn't said anything?

          18   A.  They would have that option.  It would be their decision

          19       as to whether or not they would utilise that or whether

          20       they would draw their firearm, depending upon what the

          21       level of threat is and what's happening.

          22   Q.  Thank you.  I think there is one further matter I want

          23       to ask you about, and that is this.  The question of

          24       initial accounts.  I am going to put it shortly.

          25           It's not part of their training that when they come




           1       to draft their initial accounts, wherever they're

           2       putting it, in their EABs or somewhere else -- I'll be

           3       very specific -- if they heard two shots and they are

           4       sure they heard two shots that they must not put that in

           5       their notes they must put "several"?

           6   A.  Nobody is explicitly taught to write "I fired two shots"

           7       or "I heard two shots" or "A number of shots were

           8       fired".  We train officers that they have to provide

           9       an accurate recollection of their -- of the events.

          10           We do of course, throughout the training, expose

          11       them, not specifically, but we expose them to this type

          12       of tactical training and, of course, they will build up

          13       over that period of time, an awareness around how

          14       accurate their recall of events may be or may not be.

          15           So we don't explicitly tell officers what they need

          16       to write or what they don't need to write.  We tell

          17       officers they need to provide an accurate -- and their

          18       own interpretation from the recollection of events.

          19   Q.  That's understandable.  So there isn't a manual that

          20       says, you know, you must -- you must write "several"

          21       instead of "two"?

          22   A.  There is no manual that says you must write "several",

          23       no.

          24   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you Mr Mansfield.




           1           Mr Thomas, do you have anything?

           2                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           3   MR THOMAS:  Just one matter.  Would you just bear with me

           4       one moment, sir?

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

           6   MR THOMAS:  (Pause)

           7           Good afternoon.

           8   A.  Hello.

           9   Q.  Just one matter, if I may.  This relates to the use of

          10       force and the training that police officers are given in

          11       relation to the use of force and justification of force,

          12       okay?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Now, I wonder if we could call up, please, CD10958.

          15           Sir, it's that paragraph 7.92 that we've come across

          16       many times.

          17           Can I just read it to you, I'm sure you're familiar

          18       with this, this is in the ACPO --

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  You are familiar with it, are you not?  It's C18 in the

          21       jury bundle if the jury want to follow it.  What this

          22       says is, it's in relation to the initial accounts and it

          23       says -- If I read the paragraph above, just to put it in

          24       context, that's 7.91:

          25           "Where an initial account is made by officers, it




           1       should, subject to any legal advice that they are given,

           2       be made as soon as practicable.  These accounts should

           3       be recorded in writing, timed, dated and signed."

           4           Then it goes on to say:

           5           "Each officer's initial account should only consist

           6       of their individual recollection of events and should,

           7       among other things, address the question of what they

           8       believed to be the facts and why, if relevant, they

           9       considered that the use of force and discharge of

          10       firearms was absolutely necessary."

          11           So that's what that says.  I just want to look at --

          12       can I give you a scenario.  Imagine the training video

          13       that we watched this afternoon with the jury.

          14   A.  (Nods)

          15   Q.  But instead of there being one officer, there were two

          16       officers alongside each other, happening upon that

          17       betting shop, okay?

          18   A.  Mm-hmm.

          19   Q.  We see the man come out, the armed robber come out, he's

          20       got a shotgun, and he points it at the two officers.  So

          21       they perceive a threat to their lives or a threat to

          22       their colleague.  One officer manages to fire off one

          23       shot and the armed subject is killed.  Okay.  So that's

          24       the scenario.

          25   A.  Yes.




           1   Q.  But it's witnessed by both officers.  Now, if we look at

           2       this paragraph that I have just taken you to, and the

           3       officers get back to the police station, as they have

           4       to, they have to write up their initial accounts; they

           5       are all trained about this, aren't they?

           6   A.  Yes, they are made aware of their responsibilities, yes.

           7   Q.  Now, if both officers have seen the armed robber point

           8       a gun at them and they perceive that either to be

           9       a threat to them or a threat to their colleague, that's

          10       something that should go into the initial account,

          11       shouldn't it?

          12   A.  All I can say is that they're trained to provide their

          13       recollection of events and that's a matter for the

          14       officer.

          15   Q.  Yes.  But if they recall it, what this says is -- can

          16       I just break it down: if they see the armed robber point

          17       a gun at them, that would be a relevant matter, wouldn't

          18       it, because that would justify perhaps the action; would

          19       you agree?

          20   A.  I would come back to my same point, and that is that

          21       they've been trained to recall -- to record their

          22       recollection of events, subject to legal advice.  And

          23       that's a matter for the officer.

          24   Q.  Yes.  But what I'm asking you is: if they see, and they

          25       can recall -- if they recollect that a gun was pointed




           1       at them -- so there is no dispute about them not

           2       recalling it, they accept that they recalled it -- that

           3       would be a matter that should be recorded, shouldn't it,

           4       because it's relevant?

           5   A.  I think it's an entirely subjective matter and it

           6       depends on your interpretation and their interpretation

           7       as to whether they feel that's appropriate, dependent

           8       upon the legal advice.

           9   MR THOMAS:  I'm asking you about the --

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The point about this, as far as

          11       I can see it, Mr Thomas, do you see that that

          12       paragraph 7.92 would apply to each of the two officers?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Whether they were the ones actually

          15       discharging the firearm or not?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You would expect them to follow that

          18       paragraph within their own capabilities, their own

          19       recollections subject to legal advice and other things?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think that's probably it.  Thank

          22       you.

          23           Right, Mr Stern?

          24                      Questions by MR STERN

          25   MR STERN:  Could you tell us, please, the process to become




           1       a firearms officer in the first place, the initial

           2       qualities that you're looking for?

           3   A.  For ARV officers, officers will apply, they'll go

           4       through a selection process, and that will involve an

           5       assessment of their existing skills.  We're looking for

           6       their ability around threat assessment, can they

           7       recognise a threat?  If they do recognise a threat, how

           8       do they then deal with that?  Do they take a

           9       proportional response or not?  Are they able to justify

          10       what they do or are they not able to justify what they

          11       do?  That isn't necessarily in a firearms scenario, it

          12       may be in a normal policing scenario.  So we're looking

          13       for someone who is competent around those areas.

          14   Q.  And somebody with good judgement?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Is there a selection rate?  What are the number of

          17       people that pass or the percentage of people that pass?

          18   A.  The last -- this is indicative -- the last ARV selection

          19       process, there were approximately 80 people, and it's

          20       normally about 50 per cent will pass and 50 per cent

          21       won't.

          22   Q.  Those individuals will then, if they pass the whole of

          23       the course -- and, again, presumably there's a failure

          24       rate of people failing the course as well as people

          25       being selected?




           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Those people will then serve in armed response vehicles,

           3       the ARVs?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  What does that job actually involve, being an ARV

           6       officer?

           7   A.  An ARV officer is that you are required to patrol in a

           8       marked police vehicle in overt uniform and you are there

           9       to be deployed to incidents that happen spontaneously

          10       within London and to deal with any particular threat

          11       that may be involved in that incident.

          12   Q.  Is that with firearms, threats posed by armed

          13       individuals?

          14   A.  It would normally be, because it has to meet the

          15       criteria for deployment, yes.

          16   Q.  Are those armed response vehicles set up into teams?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  So there would be a senior officer on that team?

          19   A.  A senior officer in charge of the team of officers, not

          20       necessarily a senior officer in the car.  But, yes, in

          21       charge of the team.

          22   Q.  When I say "senior officer", maybe I am getting the

          23       terms wrong.  A Sergeant?

          24   A.  A number of Sergeants on the team, yes, who supervise

          25       the Constables.




           1   Q.  Those individuals -- well, obviously the Sergeants,

           2       naturally, will be more experienced in armed response

           3       vehicles than the others?

           4   A.  They may or may not be.

           5   Q.  Will they be able to assess their colleagues on

           6       a regular basis as they carry out these operations and

           7       duties?

           8   A.  Yes, they can.

           9   Q.  Is there feedback for these individuals during the

          10       course of time that they are working on ARVs?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  So, again, are there times when individuals do not

          13       progress beyond ARV for any more than a short period of

          14       time?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Thereafter, the next rung up, I think, is, as you have

          17       told us, the TST?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Again, do you have to go through an assessment process

          20       and a training process for that?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Is there a failure rate for that?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Again, approximately, the percentage of failure rate for

          25       that?




           1   A.  About 50 to 60 per cent pass rate.

           2   Q.  Again, those individuals, are they -- we know, because

           3       we've heard evidence about it, they're working in teams

           4       and there are obviously team leaders.  Again, subject to

           5       the same assessment?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  In relation to shots fired, clearly it's right, isn't

           8       it -- and I think this is part of the ACPO manual --

           9       that research indicates that the accuracy of shots fired

          10       under training conditions is generally greater than in

          11       operational circumstances?

          12   A.  Most definitely.

          13   Q.  What's the reason for that?

          14   A.  The reason -- the training, whilst we try to reflect

          15       reality, is still training and therefore we can

          16       manipulate situations, create situations so that we get

          17       the best learning opportunities.  So we may want to have

          18       training taking place in a low light situation, with

          19       lights down on the range, but that's very controlled,

          20       it's very sterile, because we want to improve the

          21       officer's accuracy when in low light.  But of course, we

          22       haven't got any of those control measures in place in

          23       reality.

          24   Q.  The reality is, isn't it, that in training there is no

          25       risk of the officer actually being shot?




           1   A.  No.

           2   Q.  The time difference between a decision to shoot and the

           3       action taken of the officer in actually shooting and it

           4       hitting a target is obviously small but nevertheless

           5       present?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Does that sometimes lead to shots in places other than

           8       you might expect them to go?

           9   A.  Yes.  One of the scenarios played out today, that is

          10       a typical example of a number of scenarios we have.  And

          11       it does happen whereby an officer will make a decision

          12       to shoot and, when you see where the fall of shot --

          13       where the shot was, actually occurred, because it's

          14       recorded, it doesn't actually show it hitting the

          15       subject.

          16           But what it does show, when you play it back, is

          17       that the subject was stood there a fraction of a second

          18       beforehand.  But in the time that it takes the officer

          19       to make the decision -- they have carried out the threat

          20       assessment, they have made the decision, that is then

          21       communicated through their body to then squeeze the

          22       trigger; in the time that takes, that subject may have

          23       moved out the way.  So the officer still thinks they're

          24       firing at the subject but, actually, the time, small as

          25       it is, is significant enough that the subject moves out




           1       the way or changes position.  And that does happen with

           2       regularity.

           3   Q.  Do you see that in training as well, even when you are

           4       just shooting at stationary targets, that they move as

           5       well?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Do you often find that shots are entering the back of

           8       a target as opposed to the front?

           9   A.  For the purposes of accuracy, the target -- when on

          10       a range, the target will face you and then, when it

          11       turns away, it's side profile on.  But if it were to

          12       turn 180 degrees, then, yes, it would; it would be in

          13       the back.

          14   Q.  When officers train on ranges, and indeed in any other

          15       circumstances, do they wear ear mufflers?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  On every occasion?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  So does that mean, in any training setting, officers do

          20       not actually physically hear the sound of a live shot

          21       being fired?

          22   A.  No.  That's right.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can't you hear it through mufflers?

          24   A.  You hear it but it's -- because we have very strict

          25       health and safety regulations around --




           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sure you do.

           2   A.  -- that, we minimise that as much as we can.  So you may

           3       hear the audible sound, but it's far, far reduced.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

           5   MR STERN:  You say "far, far reduced".  The sound of a shot

           6       going off is obviously very loud?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Are you aware of the effects that that may have on an

           9       individual who's standing next to a shot or aware of

          10       what may happen, whether they will flinch or move or

          11       look away?

          12   A.  Yes, yes; any number of reactions can happen.

          13   Q.  Clearly the decision to shoot is a difficult one, and

          14       one for which a lot of time and money and effort is

          15       spent in training, as we've heard.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  The decision not to shoot is also an important one, is

          18       it not?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Why do you say that?

          21   A.  Because, as part of the training that we give to

          22       officers, part of the training relevant to the national

          23       curriculum is knowledge of the law, and that includes

          24       the article 2 issues around the fact that the State, and

          25       the officers on behalf of the State, have a positive




           1       obligation to protect life.

           2           Therefore, in taking decisive action and

           3       neutralising the threat by means of using a firearm is

           4       as significant as deciding not to take action to

           5       neutralise a threat, especially if that threat then goes

           6       on to be fulfilled and someone is injured.

           7   Q.  I suppose, looking at the example we saw on the training

           8       video, if the individual, the subject, had fired a shot

           9       at the individual in the William Hill office, then no

          10       doubt people might have said, "Well, why didn't the

          11       police do something about that"?

          12   A.  That's exactly why we start that particular scenario in

          13       that way, to see what the officer's assessment of that

          14       threat was and what they would do.

          15   Q.  Can I ask you about perceptual distortion.  The thing

          16       about perceptual distortion, presumably, is that

          17       individuals don't know whether they're suffering from

          18       it?

          19   A.  Correct.

          20   Q.  By definition, if you know you've got perceptual

          21       distortion, then you haven't got it.  The possibility is

          22       always there?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  We're calling it perceptual distortion but what does it

          25       actually come to?  Does it involve selective recall?




           1   A.  The way that we describe it in training is that, because

           2       of the way that the body reacts to stress and when it's

           3       under a state of stress, you only have a certain amount

           4       of cognitive capacity, cognitive ability, to actually

           5       identify and translate what's happening in front of you.

           6       Therefore, that can be to the detriment of what's

           7       happening around you, or even some of the detail you're

           8       dealing with.  So that's how we try to encapsulate what

           9       perceptual distortion is.

          10   Q.  So you may take in certain things but omit others from

          11       your cognitive recognition?

          12   A.  Yes.  And part of that process -- what the brain doesn't

          13       know or is not aware of, it tries to fill in the blanks.

          14       Because we have what we call an initial state and what

          15       we call a gold state, ie it's a problem, we want to try

          16       and solve this problem.  But things get in the way,

          17       obstacles get in the way, such as time, such as

          18       distance, such as -- that type of stress.  So it's about

          19       understanding what those things are and why it is the

          20       brain might misinterpret things.

          21   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Stern.

          23           I think I have Mr Butt next.

          24                       Questions by MR BUTT

          25   MR BUTT:  I represent the Tactical Firearms Commander.




           1   A.  Hello.

           2   Q.  Mr Mansfield suggested to you that containment and

           3       call-out is perceived by some as being a preferred

           4       tactic in an armed operation, whether it is a preferred

           5       tactic or not will depend entirely upon the

           6       circumstances of any individual case, won't it?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  The individual circumstances might make containment and

           9       call-out either the safer or a much more dangerous

          10       option, yes?

          11   A.  I totally agree, yes.

          12   Q.  For example, if an innocent member of the public were in

          13       the hypothetical two-up/two-down house, that that would

          14       increase the risk because they could be, for example,

          15       taken hostage?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Another obvious example.  It would increase the risk if

          18       the firearms team didn't know how many guns were in the

          19       house, who had access to the guns or how many people had

          20       access to the guns, yes?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Of course, you would also need to be confident that

          23       there was in fact a firearm in the house, or whatever

          24       the perceived risk was that you were tackling, because

          25       a containment and call-out, even if there are no




           1       firearms in the house, can pose a risk to the occupants,

           2       can't it?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Equally, a static stop, it would depend entirely on the

           5       individual circumstances whether that is a preferred or

           6       safer option, yes?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  An obvious increased risk factor is if the criminal

           9       handover has just occurred because experience shows that

          10       the subject will have heightened awareness at that time;

          11       is that right?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Also, it would be more dangerous if the stop were at

          14       a location of the choosing of the subjects where there

          15       may or may not be criminal associates nearby?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  An advantage of an enforced stop, for example, is that

          18       the police can choose the location of the stop and the

          19       timing of going to state amber or to state red; is that

          20       right?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  But the better, the safer option, is going to depend on

          23       the circumstances as they appear to the three Commanders

          24       in consultation with the Tactical Advisor?

          25   A.  Yes.




           1   MR BUTT:  Thank you very much.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Butt.

           3           Ms Dobbin is no longer with us.  So I think I have

           4       you, Ms Leek.

           5   MS LEEK:  No, thank you, sir.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

           7   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

           9                      Questions by MR KEITH

          10   MR KEITH:  May I just pick up some remaining points which

          11       have been set out in your helpful statement that we all

          12       have?

          13           In relation to the training carried out by the

          14       Metropolitan Police, you described to Mr Underwood how

          15       the training itself is benchmarked against a standard

          16       set nationally?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Is the actual training that you provide subject to any

          19       kind of audit in relation to its design or delivery or

          20       management, what it actually does?

          21   A.  Yes, it's assessed on an annual basis which is

          22       a self-inspection but then subject to scrutiny by the

          23       College of Policing and then every four years a full

          24       assessment of the training matter from lesson plans to

          25       risk assessments to the state of our ranges, a full and




           1       comprehensive review.

           2   Q.  Does that allow for an objective appreciation of the

           3       standard of the Metropolitan Police training systems, as

           4       opposed to other forces, for example?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Without in any way causing you to blush, how does the

           7       Metropolitan Police rate in terms of that objective

           8       audit?

           9   A.  We have a full licence at this moment in time and we've

          10       always had a full licence.

          11   Q.  In relation to the firearms instructors themselves, you

          12       told Mr Underwood they must be accredited, by which we

          13       take it that you mean they must pass a particular

          14       course.  But is there any other degree of competence,

          15       any other aspect of competence, that they must also

          16       have?

          17   A.  Yes.  All firearms instructors have to be occupationally

          18       competent in the sense that they have passed a national

          19       firearms instructor's course.  They also have to have

          20       an additional teaching qualification, which, for

          21       firearms instructors in the Met, is the preparation for

          22       teaching the life-long learning sector.  We call it

          23       a PTLLS qualification and they have to what have that on

          24       top of being operationally experienced, operationally

          25       competent.




           1   Q.  The foundation course for TST officers that you

           2       described, is any part of it dedicated to vehicle

           3       training, to tactics or operational issues revolving

           4       around the stopping of vehicles?

           5   A.  Yes, it is.

           6   Q.  Can you say how much of that foundation course is

           7       specifically concerned with vehicle stops?

           8   A.  Approximately 50 hours' worth of training.

           9   Q.  So that's just the foundation course?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  When you come to the refresher training, does refresher

          12       training include specifically vehicle tactics?

          13   A.  Yes, it does.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you just help us because I asked

          15       another witness about -- it would help your training to

          16       have what happens in real life recorded, wouldn't it?

          17       All these officers are wired for sound, speaking to each

          18       other saying "Strike" or "Amber", "State red", or

          19       whatever it may be and, after an event and debriefing,

          20       you might be able to play back something that's recorded

          21       and find out how things went.

          22   A.  The issue with video recording --

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, sound recording, for a start.

          24   A.  It's really around cost and it's around storage.  We

          25       have a record of a student's activity on a daily basis




           1       where we'll record what they've done, what they've been

           2       exposed to, and we will give an officer every day

           3       a debrief sheet, a feedback sheet which tells them what

           4       they did well, what they can do better and what areas

           5       they have to work on, that may be relevant to that day

           6       or more generally.

           7           Of course, that takes a great deal of time.  It

           8       takes -- it has to be stored and then it has to be

           9       maintained as part of their training record.  So that's

          10       proven to be a valuable way of developing the officers

          11       and for them to gain feedback and there's been no real

          12       intention or desire or appetite to move away from that.

          13   MR KEITH:  Thank you.  In relation to officers who are

          14       trained and, in particular, officers on Tactical Support

          15       Teams, are they required to carry out a number of what

          16       are called classification or development shoots every

          17       year.

          18   A.  Yes, they are.

          19   Q.  What are they?

          20   A.  An officer on a TST is required to carry out three

          21       classification shoots each year -- within a 12-month

          22       period, I should say.  A classification shoot involves

          23       firing 100 bullets over nine different disciplines.  So

          24       as an example the first shoot or the first discipline

          25       may involve firing ten bullets and, throughout those




           1       nine different disciplines, we will introduce distance,

           2       we will introduce them to maybe kneeling, standing,

           3       moving, we might have the requirement to change

           4       magazines and to change the loads, so we try and expose

           5       them to different types of things that can happen in

           6       reality.

           7   Q.  That's in relation to classification shoots.  What about

           8       development shoots?

           9   A.  A development shoot follows the same process of

          10       an officer being on a range with their weapon but it's

          11       not recorded in the sense that they have to pass

          12       a specific mark.  It's about exposing them to maybe

          13       firing in low light or to firing at moving targets, and

          14       the classification is marked that they have to achieve

          15       90 per cent in order to remain competent and to remain

          16       operationally deployable.  The development shoot, it's

          17       about them being exposed to different types of shooting

          18       that we think will improve their accuracy.

          19   Q.  Is that regarded as a difficult course or as a higher

          20       benchmark that they have to reach?

          21   A.  Yes, it is.

          22   Q.  Is that a standard applied by other forces in the United

          23       Kingdom or just the Metropolitan Police?

          24   A.  My understanding is that it's higher than most other

          25       forces.




           1   Q.  Finally, in relation to the issue of containment that

           2       you were asked questions about, in addition to the

           3       matters that were put to you by Mr Butt as being matters

           4       that police officers would need to know about, in order

           5       for you to contain an address, do you need to know the

           6       address?

           7   A.  You have to have a very good understanding of where that

           8       threat is so you can properly maintain -- properly

           9       contain it.  If that involves a building you would need

          10       to know what the address is and where that threat is,

          11       yes.

          12   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Keith.

          14           Mr Underwood?

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising, thank you very much.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are Mr Dobinson.  Thank you

          17       very much.  That completes your evidence and thank you

          18       for assisting the jury.

          19   A.  Thank you.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So feel free now to leave us.

          21                      (The witness withdrew)

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Members of the jury, thank you for

          23       sitting on a bit later this evening just to allow us to

          24       finish that witness.  It's amazing, we lawyers call it

          25       "this evening".  When it goes after about 4.30 it stops




           1       being the afternoon and becomes the evening, it's an old

           2       trick.

           3           What I will say to you publicly is that I've had

           4       a note from you.  So next week we'll be sitting Monday

           5       afternoon and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.  After

           6       that, we'll then be sitting four full days from Monday

           7       at 10.30.  So thank you for giving me that feedback.  So

           8       that's it, for today, so thank you very much.

           9           If you would like to leave us.  10.30 tomorrow

          10       morning.



          23   (4.48 pm)

          24       (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Thursday,

          25                         7 November 2013)





           1                              INDEX

           2                                                       PAGE

           3   DETECTIVE CONSTABLE RACHAEL SAMUEL ...................1
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................1
                   Questions by MR STERN ............................8
                   Questions by MR KEITH ...........................16
               POLICE CONSTABLE SCOTT NICHOLLS .....................20
           8             (affirmed)

           9       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................20

          10       Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................26

          11       Questions by MR KEITH ...........................33

          12       Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ............38

          13   SERGEANT CHRISTOPHER HANNIGAN .......................39
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................39
               Submissions by MR MANSFIELD .........................44
               Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD .........................63
               Submissions by MS LEEK ..............................78
               Discussion re training video ........................82
               TEMPORARY SUPERINTENDENT ............................98
          20             SIMON DOBINSON (affirmed)

          21       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................98

          22       Questions by MR MANSFIELD ......................134

          23       Questions by MR THOMAS .........................164

          24       Questions by MR STERN ..........................167

          25       Questions by MR BUTT ...........................176




           1       Questions by MR KEITH ..........................179

           2   Submissions by MR STERN ............................185

           3   Submissions by MR KEITH ............................191

           4   Submissions by MR BUTT .............................192