Transcript of the Hearing 3 December 2013

           1                                       Tuesday, 3 December 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

          12                  (In the presence of the jury)

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The jury are in.

          14           Right, yes, Mr Underwood.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Before we close all the evidence, there are

          16       a few witness statements which I have yet to read.  To

          17       settle things down, perhaps I could do that now.

          18           You recall first of all, ladies and gentlemen, that

          19       when we had Mr Noble-Thompson, he looked at the

          20       photograph of his and gave some evidence of what he

          21       regarded as non-verbal communication between Z51 and

          22       a police officer whose face we couldn't see.  We have

          23       a statement about that and we have the unredacted

          24       photograph.  Perhaps we could have the photograph round

          25       first of all.  (Handed)


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           1           So this is an unredacted version of CE234.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Yes, thank you.

           3               W39 (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, the statement I need to read in relation

           5       to that is of W39 and it's a statement he gave on

           6       30 November this year.  He says:

           7           "This statement is in response to a request

           8       regarding a still photograph following the fatal

           9       shooting of Mark Duggan.  I have been shown a copy of

          10       photograph CE234 in a non-pixelated form.  I can confirm

          11       that the male to the left of the centre of the

          12       photograph in the background behind the fence wearing

          13       a dark blue police cap is me."

          14           It's signed W39.

          15           So I anticipate the jurors might wish to keep that.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  We can have some holes put in

          17       it, I'm sure, so we can stick it in our bundles.

          18   MR STERN:  Can I mention about that because it is available

          19       electronically, at least I have it available

          20       electronically on a disk.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Unredacted?

          22   MR STERN:  Unredacted, yes.  So what one can actually do is

          23       zoom in and it is actually quite helpful to be able to

          24       do it, both zoom in and zoom out, because I saw

          25       obviously you and others looking at it and it's not easy


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           1       to see quite as clearly as one can.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, just hold it a bit closer or

           3       further away!

           4   MR STERN:  Whatever it is.  All I am saying is you can move

           5       the picture nearer or further away.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you for letting us know that.

           7   MR STERN:  Maybe give the jury a disc at some point in

           8       relation to it.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's very helpful or it may well be we will

          10       blow one up and get a large version printed out.  Thank

          11       you very much for that.

          12           So that's that one.  Then the only firearms officer

          13       who has not been able to give evidence because he's in

          14       Australia is V72.

          15              V72 (statements read by MR UNDERWOOD)

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  He's given a number of statements perhaps

          17       I can deal with those.  The first is at CS202, and

          18       that's his EAB statement made on 4 August 2011.  In that

          19       he says:

          20           "On Thursday, 4 August 2011, I was on duty in full

          21       uniform (plain clothes).  I was in possession of my

          22       personal issue Glock, MP5, shotgun and Taser.  I was

          23       posted a driver of a covert armed response vehicle

          24       (control).  I was in the company of V59.  Information

          25       was received that a male was in possession of a firearm


                                             3
 

 

 


           1       travelling in a vehicle, VRM R343 KPE.  The vehicle was

           2       stopped, officers moved forward to the vehicle, a black

           3       male exited the nearside.  I heard a number of shots.

           4       I saw the black male fall to the pavement and heard

           5       someone shout a police officer had been shot.  First aid

           6       was carried out on both parties.  We then left the

           7       scene."

           8           He signed that V72.  He then made --

           9   MR THOMAS:  Sorry, as it's been read, as it's the EAB, could

          10       we just have, just for the jury, the timings that it was

          11       made, how long it -- you might need to look at the

          12       original.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  We probably can.  (Pause)

          14   MR THOMAS:  Also the time it was franked.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  The book itself starts at CD47.  The timing

          16       on CD49 says that the notes start the at 23.20 and they

          17       were completed at 23.40.  The statement itself has

          18       a time of 23.25 on it and it's franked at 0.16 on

          19       5 August.

          20           Then, like the other firearms officers, V72 made

          21       a full statement on 7 August.  That starts at CS209.

          22       I am picking it up on the second page, unless anybody

          23       wants me to start earlier.  Halfway down that page he

          24       says:

          25           "At approximately 1755 hours the team left


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           1       Quicksilver making our way to support unarmed units who

           2       were following the subject.  Also present in the vehicle

           3       now were ZZ17 and Z51.  Being the control vehicle I was

           4       in the fourth car in the convoy.  We left Quicksilver

           5       making our way towards Lea Bridge Road which was in the

           6       vicinity of where the subject was.  As we got to the

           7       vicinity of Turnpike Lane, Wood Green I was informed by

           8       V59 that we had moved to state amber at approximately

           9       1800 hours.  State amber is when CO19 have authorised to

          10       intercept the vehicle.  I was aware of more intel coming

          11       in.  The subject was in a minicab, VRM R343 KPE, gold

          12       people carrier style.  It was also heading back towards

          13       Broadwater Farm Tottenham, the male was in the rear seat

          14       and it was confirmed that he was in possession of

          15       a firearm.  We made our way through heavy traffic onto

          16       Blackhorse Road.  We made our way along Blackhorse Road

          17       heading towards Forest Road E17.  In the distance I saw

          18       the minicab held at a set of traffic lights.  There was

          19       approximately ten cars in front of us.  When the lights

          20       went to green I saw the vehicle turn left into Forest

          21       Road heading towards Tottenham Hale BR station.  I went

          22       offside and followed the A, B and C cars, as we passed

          23       the members of public's cars, people were beeping their

          24       car horns.  As the convey turned into Forest Road I was

          25       aware of a few cars in front of the lead police vehicle


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           1       with a blue X5 behind the target vehicle.  To make

           2       progress we moved into the bus lane and pushed past

           3       a number of cars to make ground up on the target

           4       vehicle.  At this point, all police vehicles were behind

           5       the BMW X5 as the road went from Forest Road on the bend

           6       into Ferry Lane N17.  State red was then called by W42.

           7       State red being interception is imminent.  The BMW X5

           8       then turned left into Jarrow Road.

           9           "At approximately 1813 hours I heard W42 say

          10       'Strike, strike, strike'.  My role is to fend off or

          11       stop traffic trying to pass as the strike goes in.  As

          12       the strike was called I put on my emergency equipment to

          13       identify that we are a police vehicle.  My blue lights

          14       flashing, headlights flashing and rear reds were on.  My

          15       siren two tones were on.  I was aware of a female

          16       cyclists peddling towards the stop.  I moved the vehicle

          17       to the nearside to stop her entering the sterile area.

          18       We then came to a stop about two car lengths from the

          19       C car.  The target vehicle had stopped as it started to

          20       across the bridge before the hump.  I saw the Alpha pass

          21       the target vehicle and pull in front of the car causing

          22       it to stop.  The Bravo car was stopped to the offside

          23       parallel with the target vehicle.  The Charlie was

          24       stopped directly behind the target vehicle.  I took the

          25       car out of drive and became aware that V59 had deployed


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           1       from the car.  ZZ17 and Z51 remained in the rear of the

           2       car.  Before I exited the car I put on my plot cap.

           3       This is a baseball style cap in a dark blue with a black

           4       and white chequered band around it and a sign on the

           5       front saying 'Metropolitan Police'.

           6           "As I opened the door I heard a number of shots and

           7       loads of down feathers explode into the air.  There were

           8       a number of police officers around a black male.  The

           9       black male started to fall to the ground.  I made my way

          10       over to where everybody was to [act] as prisoner

          11       reception.  I saw W70 grab hold of the black male and

          12       fall to the ground.  As I got to the group I heard

          13       somebody shouting 'W42 has been shot'.  I made my way

          14       over to W42 who was saying 'I've been shot'.

          15           W39 took hold of W42 and placed him in the sitting

          16       position opposite the target vehicle nearside on the

          17       south footway.  V53 came over and started to rip W42's

          18       top off to carry out a body survey to see if there were

          19       any injuries.  I ran back to the rear of the Charlie car

          20       and picked up the first aid kit and made my way back to

          21       where W42 was.  V53 was happy with the survey and made

          22       his way to the prone subject."

          23           He then goes on to deal with W42 and the

          24       post-incident procedure.  Unless anybody wants me to,

          25       I wasn't proposing to read that.


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           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could you just clarify, he would

           2       have been called to give evidence but he's unobtainable.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  He is indeed.  He's not just in Australia,

           4       he's out of touch.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, but still in Australia, but

           6       we have not been able to track him down.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  No.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He's no longer in the police force

           9       either, is he?

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  He's on long-term leave, I gather.

          11           He made a further statement on 22 May 2012 and that

          12       was in response to the IPCC asking about passages in the

          13       statement I have just read and he was asked to expand on

          14       the phrase "As I opened the door, I heard a number of

          15       shots and loads of down feathers explode into the air."

          16           This is at CS205 and he says in that:

          17           "I heard a number of shots but I cannot assist where

          18       they were fired from and unable to assist with the

          19       amount of time between shots.  I cannot recall what

          20       I heard at this point or after the shots.  The down

          21       feathers appeared to have come from the jacket of the

          22       subject Mark Duggan.  I did not see the male prior to

          23       the shots.  I marked position A on the map to where

          24       I was when the shots were fired."

          25           That map has just come up on the screen.  It's


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           1       CE271, so position A, which is just north of the Land

           2       Rover there.

           3           He's asked then to expand on the phrase "There were

           4       a number of police officers around a black male.  The

           5       black male started to fall to the ground."  To that he

           6       said:

           7           "I cannot recall how many police officers were

           8       around the male or what they were doing.  I am also

           9       unable to assist if any physical contact was made with

          10       the subject.  I have marked position B on my map where

          11       I believe the subject to be.  I am also unable to assist

          12       further with any more questions in this section."

          13           Then he's asked about the phrase "I made my way over

          14       to where everybody was to get as prisoner reception.

          15       I saw W70 grab hold of the male and fall to the ground".

          16       He said of that:

          17           "W70 was at the right-hand side of the subject and

          18       it looked like it was his arm and shoulder area.  I have

          19       marked position C on the map where the subject fell on

          20       the pavement."

          21           B and C seem to be a box.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In that hatched box?

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Quite.  Towards the bottom of page CS206,

          24       he's asked about non-police issue firearm and he said:

          25           "At some stage later, I was made aware that


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           1       a non-issue police firearm had been found.  I cannot

           2       remember who made me aware of its presence at the scene.

           3       I cannot assist as to how it got there.  I did not see

           4       the non-issue police firearm."

           5           So that's his evidence, or rather would have been

           6       his evidence, presumably, had he been available.

           7       DETECTIVE INSPECTOR BRIAN LUCAS (statement read by

           8                          MR UNDERWOOD)

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  The only other statement I wish to read at

          10       this stage is one of Brian Lucas.  It's dated

          11       17 September 2012 and it's our CS839.  In that he says:

          12           "I'm a Detective Inspector and I am currently the

          13       pro-active DI for Trident Proactive south 1, Trident

          14       Gang Command within the Metropolitan Police Service."

          15           He gives some of his history and then in the third

          16       paragraph says:

          17           "Trident utilises an on-call system outside normal

          18       office hours in order to provide Inspector and

          19       Superintendent cover 24 hours per day.  I was the

          20       on-call Detective Inspector for the week commencing

          21       2 August 2011 to 9 August 2011.  My responsibilities

          22       included a response to shooting incidents across the MPS

          23       outside normal working hours.  On 4 August 2011 I had

          24       returned home from duty at 6.00 pm.  At 6.14 pm,

          25       I received a phone call from the SC&O reserve stating


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           1       that there had been a shooting incident during an armed

           2       operation involving SCD8.  The shooting involved police

           3       and the subject of the operation had been shot by

           4       police, possibility fatally.  I was provided with the

           5       location of the incident as Ferry Lane junction with

           6       Mill Mead Road N17.

           7           "I enquired whether the incident had been declared

           8       a critical incident.  I was informed in the affirmative.

           9       The scene was now cordoned off and I was informed the

          10       duty officer was in attendance.  At this stage, it was

          11       unclear if the post-incident procedure had been

          12       implemented.  I requested DPS to be informed as per

          13       protocol and total lock down at the scene.  No press

          14       releases at this time.

          15           "I was informed that the subject shot by police was

          16       a black male, 25 years, who I now know to be Mark

          17       Duggan.  I placed a call to the on-call Superintendent,

          18       Detective Superintendent Tony Nash.  He was aware of the

          19       incident and was attending the scene.  I was requested

          20       to join him at the scene.  I received a briefing of the

          21       incident.  I was informed that Mark Duggan had been

          22       fatally shot by police as a result of a pro-active

          23       operation and a police officer had been taken to

          24       hospital, a bullet had been identified in his radio.

          25       I arrived at the scene at 7.20 pm.  The scene was


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           1       correctly cordoned off at both ends of the bridge.  My

           2       initial assessment of the scene was as follows:

           3           "In the inner cordon police vehicles that were

           4       engaged in the stop were in situ and had not been moved,

           5       as was the cab in which Mark Duggan was a passenger.

           6       Forensic tents were also deployed that covered the body

           7       of Mark Duggan and the firearm found at the scene.  The

           8       scene was to remain sterile for forensic examination and

           9       to protect the dignity of the deceased.  I did not enter

          10       that area.

          11           "On my arrival at the scene I was informed that Mark

          12       Duggan's brother was at the scene.  I passed this

          13       information to Detective Chief Superintendent Cundy to

          14       deal with as he was in contact with DPS.  I was also

          15       aware of Z51's presence at the scene and the SFC.

          16       I immediately took responsibility for the scene and

          17       assisted in their exit of the scene and

          18       responsibilities.

          19           "Detective Superintendent Nash also left the scene,

          20       leaving Detective Chief Superintendent Cundy in overall

          21       charge.  This set the following parameters at the scene:

          22           "1.  To preserve the scene until arrival and

          23       handover to DPS and IPCC.

          24           "2.  To ensure effective communication with the

          25       family through FLO [family liaison officers] deployment.


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           1           "3.  To ensure effective communication [from] the

           2       scene.

           3           "Significant witnesses have been identified.  I was

           4       aware that Detective Chief Superintendent Cundy had

           5       entered the inner cordon.  I was present at the scene

           6       when DPS and IPCC arrived and I provided a briefing as

           7       detailed above in the presence of Detective Chief

           8       Superintendent Cundy who handed responsibility of the

           9       scene to IPCC."

          10           So, sir, that's the statement reading for today,

          11       I hope.

          12           So before I call any more evidence, we are awaiting

          13       a witness statement, a full detailed witness statement

          14       to be taken from a man we know as witness B.  I am

          15       proposing to call him when I've got that statement and

          16       when people have had a chance to read it.  I am afraid

          17       I don't know precisely when that's going to be

          18       available.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was there no other reading to be

          20       done or do you want to do that later.

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  There's a possibility of one other to be

          22       read.  But I need to consider whether we need to read

          23       that at all, but certainly not at this stage.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, there we are.  I think the

          25       answer is for the jury and I then to have an extended


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           1       coffee break probably while these things are done.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you.  Before the jury go out, there are

           3       some postmortem photographs which I gather were

           4       requested, which can go into the jury bundle.  They can

           5       be handed up now.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have they got holes in them?

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  It looks as if they do.  (Handed)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

           9           Just slip these in the back of your files.  These

          10       will be the arm wound and such like, as requested.  You

          11       can put them in the back of your files and look at them

          12       at your leisure, if you wish to.

          13           Once you have done that then, members of the jury,

          14       just slip them in the back of the files for a moment and

          15       then if you will be kind enough then to leave us for

          16       a while and we'll let you know as soon as we have this

          17       witness available to give evidence for you.  All right,

          18       thank you very much.  If you would like to leave us for

          19       a moment or two and we'll keep you informed.

 

                                            14
 


           4   (10.54 am)

           5                         (A short break)

           6   (12.24 pm)

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  We'll have the jury in

          22       then, please.  Cameras off, thank you.

          23                  (In the presence of the jury)

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          25       jury, for giving us some time to work out administrative


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           1       matters.  I think we are now in a position to hear from

           2       a witness.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  We are.  I call Witness B, please.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He's a witness to whom the court has

           5       given anonymity in the usual terms so I will ask that he

           6       be brought to court and the press are upstairs but not

           7       downstairs.  So when he arrives, I'll ask for the

           8       cameras to be turned off briefly.  (Pause)

           9           It's not the first time, members of the jury, in

          10       court, I have often wondered why we don't have some

          11       piped music while we are waiting for the next witness to

          12       come in, just to keep us occupied.  But anyway, there we

          13       are.  I am told the witness is there.  He's been found

          14       and he's being guided into court.  (Pause)

          15           We have a witness.

          16           Thank you very much.  If you would like to come in,

          17       please, follow Ms Day.  The cameras are still off.

          18                        WITNESS B (sworn)

          19                   (The witness was anonymised)

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Would you come

          21       forward and have a seat, please, there, and Ms Day might

          22       have a piece of paper with your name on it.  Just so we

          23       can confirm anonymously who you are or not.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps we can do that in due course.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll just see.  You see how you get


                                            17
 

 

 


           1       on answering questions from Mr Underwood.

           2                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning.  Now, my name is Underwood and

           4       I'm counsel to the Inquest.  We are going to call you

           5       Witness B; is that all right?

           6   A.  That's fine.

           7   Q.  In due course, we will give you a piece of paper with

           8       your name on it so you can show that to the Coroner and

           9       identify your actual name.

          10           I want to ask you questions about 4 August 2011.

          11   A.  Mm.

          12   Q.  Where were you living then?

          13   A.  In Emily Bowes Court.

          14   Q.  You have a quiet voice like me.  The microphone with the

          15       red light on it, if you move that towards you.  Get rid

          16       of the red file for the moment, you don't need that.

          17           Sorry, where were you living?

          18   A.  Emily Bowes Court.

          19   Q.  That's on Ferry Lane, is it, or looking out on Ferry

          20       Lane?

          21   A.  That's on Ferry Lane, yes.

          22   Q.  Which floor were you on?

          23   A.  I was on the 9th floor at the time.

          24   Q.  Were you sharing that flat within anyone?

          25   A.  Yes, I was sharing that flat with my girlfriend at the


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           1       time.

           2   Q.  Is that somebody we are now calling Witness A?

           3   A.  Witness A, yes.

           4   Q.  We're interested in events on 4 August at about 6.10 or

           5       6.15 in the evening; were you in the flat then?

           6   A.  Yes.  Yes, I was.

           7   Q.  Did the windows of that flat look over Ferry Lane?

           8   A.  They didn't look over Ferry Lane but when you stuck your

           9       head out and looked towards the right you can see Ferry

          10       Lane.  It was clear, clear view.

          11   Q.  Right.  Did you hear any sort of commotion?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  What did you hear?

          14   A.  I heard tyres screeching, couple of tyres screeching,

          15       and then I heard shouting as well.

          16   Q.  Could you make out what the shouting was?

          17   A.  The shouting was either "Put it down" or "Get down", it

          18       was one of those two.

          19   Q.  Where exactly were you in the flat?

          20   A.  I was on my desk, which is, let's say, this distance

          21       (indicates) -- about this big (indicates) from the

          22       window, yes.

          23   Q.  So three or four feet from the window?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Was the window open or closed?


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           1   A.  It was open.

           2   Q.  So you heard screeching of tyres, you heard "Get down"

           3       or "Put it down"?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Can you be sure which it was?

           6   A.  No, I can't be sure.

           7   Q.  What did you do?

           8   A.  Just started looking -- well, viewing what was going on

           9       and --

          10   Q.  How did you do that, sorry?  You say you were viewing,

          11       did you go to the window or did you do it from where you

          12       were?

          13   A.  No, I went to the window, stuck my -- like half of my

          14       body out the windowsill and then I started seeing

          15       everything really.

          16   Q.  Let's take this very gently: did you see any cars?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Can you recall what you saw, in terms of cars, for the

          19       moment?

          20   A.  I saw the taxi, which was a people's carrier, it was

          21       blocked in by a BMW and a white Vauxhall Insignia and

          22       there was a Land Rover at the back, about ten steps at

          23       the back, yes.

          24   Q.  Right.  Did you see any policemen?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            20
 

 

 


           1   Q.  How did you know they were police?

           2   A.  They all had blue -- this blue jacket on and some of

           3       them had firearms on them as well.

           4   Q.  Did you see any civilian?

           5   A.  Well, right after the shooting, that's when --

           6   Q.  No, as you were looking out, what did you see in terms

           7       of people?

           8   A.  People-wise, it was the police, Mark Duggan and -- no,

           9       no civilians, no people at all, just at that point in

          10       time.

          11   Q.  You say you saw Mark Duggan, did you actually know him?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  You saw a man who you now know to be --

          14   A.  Now known as Mark Duggan.

          15   Q.  Where was he?

          16   A.  He was on the sidewalk where -- right at the back of the

          17       people carrier, like on the sidewalk, like, the people

          18       carrier was -- I could see his upper body from there

          19       (indicates), yes.

          20   Q.  So what was preventing you seeing the lower body?

          21   A.  The people carrier.

          22   Q.  Were there policemen near him?

          23   A.  Well, there was one right in front of the Insignia on

          24       the other side.  There was another guy in between the

          25       Land Rover and -- was it the Land Rover and the people's


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       carrier, and you had another guy who was on the road --

           2       yeah.

           3   Q.  All right.  What was Mark Duggan doing?

           4   A.  Well, when I saw him, he was on the sidewalk and he

           5       tried -- well, he tried to run off towards Tottenham

           6       Hale but then there was a police officer standing right

           7       there so he turned around to run off back towards

           8       Blackhorse Road.

           9   Q.  When you say "he tried to run off towards Tottenham

          10       Hale", how far did he get?

          11   A.  About -- not too far, just half -- like a full car's

          12       length really, yeah.

          13   Q.  Did he go beyond the front of the minicab?

          14   A.  Yeah.

          15   Q.  You think the car in front of the minicab was a Vauxhall

          16       Insignia, do you?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Did he reach that?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  You say there was a policeman there?

          21   A.  Mm.

          22   Q.  He turned round, did he?

          23   A.  Not the policeman but --

          24   Q.  No, the man you now know to be Mark Duggan?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            22
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Having turned round -- so he was then facing towards

           2       Blackhorse Road?

           3   A.  Blackhorse Road, yes.

           4   Q.  Did he move back that way?

           5   A.  Towards Blackhorse Road?

           6   Q.  Yes.

           7   A.  Yes, he took about three steps -- three steps towards

           8       Blackhorse Road.

           9   Q.  You say you could see the top half of his body, could

          10       you see his hands?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Was there anything in his hands?

          13   A.  He had a -- well, it looked like a phone clutched in his

          14       hands, I have said that from day one, and I will always

          15       say that, it did look like a phone, and he had his hands

          16       up like that (indicates).

          17   Q.  You are putting both hands up above your shoulders?

          18   A.  Above his shoulders, right near the face, like, you

          19       know -- this is when he was running towards Blackhorse

          20       Road and then the police officer kind of -- was standing

          21       in front of him and he just paused, like, you know,

          22       what -- but then (indicates) that was definitely

          23       a phone.

          24   Q.  Sorry I missed that?

          25   A.  That was definitely a phone clutched in his hand.


                                            23
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So you have described him going towards Tottenham Hale,

           2       turning round, taking a few steps back towards

           3       Blackhorse Road --

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  -- and you have said he had his hands raised above his

           6       shoulders and there was a BlackBerry in his right hand?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  A mobile phone, you said, I think, and there was

           9       a policeman in front of him, yes?

          10   A.  Mm.

          11   Q.  Was there any shouting at this stage?

          12   A.  At this stage there was -- yes, there was a lot of, you

          13       know -- I think, yeah, "Get down, get down".

          14   Q.  What happened then?

          15   A.  He was shot, twice.

          16   Q.  How do you know he was shot?

          17   A.  I heard the shots, yes.

          18   Q.  Did you see any reaction?

          19   A.  The way he fell as well, collapsed.

          20   Q.  How did he fall?

          21   A.  He just collapsed.

          22   Q.  Whereabouts was he when the shots were fired?

          23   A.  On the sidewalk.

          24   Q.  Had he gone to the back of the minicab or was he by the

          25       side of the minicab or what?


                                            24
 

 

 


           1   A.  He was just at the back of the people's carrier, not

           2       fully at the back but, let's say, the people's carrier

           3       was right, he was right there (indicates).

           4   Q.  So by the side of the minicab but more towards its back

           5       than its front; would that be fair?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  How far away from him was the policeman who you think

           8       shot him?

           9   A.  About a couple of steps.  I would say about five to

          10       about seven steps, yes.

          11   Q.  Did you see what happened to the mobile phone?

          12   A.  Erm, he was still -- I think -- well, when he dropped

          13       I think he was still clutching it, definitely, I think

          14       so.

          15   Q.  When he dropped could you still see him?

          16   A.  Yeah.

          17   Q.  Did you see the first aid?

          18   A.  Two police officers ran over to him.  Like, when the

          19       first -- when they started giving him first aid -- like

          20       the first aiders, you couldn't see all of his body, you

          21       could only see bits and pieces like his feet, you know,

          22       where he got shot and a bit of his face as well.

          23   Q.  At some point did you start filming this?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Did you have the phone in your hand all the time or did


                                            25
 

 

 


           1       you have to go back inside?

           2   A.  No, the moment he got shot that's when I went inside and

           3       got my phone and started recording.  It was only about

           4       two seconds, three seconds at most, getting the phone.

           5   Q.  The lady we're calling Witness A who was in the flat

           6       with you, did she start recording some of this on

           7       a camera?

           8   A.  Yeah.  She started recording some of it through the

           9       living room, the front bit of the house.  So where she

          10       was recording it, it was like a big TV screen with --

          11       even --

          12   Q.  All right.  I just want to show you the start at least

          13       of some footage we've got, so you can tell us whether

          14       it's the footage that you took.  Sir, I don't know

          15       whether you want to run through the whole of this or

          16       just get an identification of --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think at some stage we will have

          18       to have the whole of it, so let's do it now.

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can I explain what we have done here?  There

          20       are, I think, seven or so clips of this and they have

          21       been knitted together here and they have gone through

          22       a process called stabilisation so that what you see is

          23       centred on the middle of the action here.

          24           With that in mind, can you watch this -- it's nine

          25       or ten minutes -- and at the end of it I'll ask you


                                            26
 

 

 


           1       whether you can identify whether it's the footage you

           2       took, all right?

           3           Can we play it, please?

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           5              (BBC footage was played to the court)

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Did you take that footage.

           7   A.  (Nods)

           8   Q.  There's a version of that with sound on as well, isn't

           9       there?

          10   A.  Yeah.

          11   Q.  Did you supply that footage to the BBC?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Were you reluctant to give evidence about this?

          14   A.  Erm, yeah.

          15   Q.  Why?

          16   A.  (Pause).

          17           To be -- just didn't really want to, you know --

          18       I mean, I took the video, I gave it to the BBC so they

          19       could put it out there and that was it really.  I had to

          20       move out of London because of it, as well, so, you know,

          21       I just wanted to be left alone, really.

          22   Q.  What were you worried about?

          23   A.  Not worried, just, you know -- it's not every day you

          24       see someone getting shot at in -- you know, in London,

          25       and not only that dying, as well.  I've never seen


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       anybody being shot and that was the first time I saw

           2       someone getting shot.

           3           So things like that played on my mind for a bit, as

           4       well, and you have people also talking, a whole bunch of

           5       stuff as well.  So -- yeah.

           6   Q.  What sort of things?

           7   A.  About, erm, him being in Tottenham, you know, all this

           8       stuff coming out like, you know -- you know, gangs and

           9       all of that stuff really, so I just didn't want to be

          10       bothered with it, that was it.

          11   Q.  All right.  I think we have now got a piece of paper

          12       with your name on.  Could we just have that shown to

          13       you.  (Handed)

          14           Is that your name?

          15   A.  Yeah.

          16   Q.  Perhaps that could be handed up to the learned Coroner,

          17       please.  (Handed)

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That will be a convenient moment,

          19       I think.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's all I have to ask, thank you.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, what we will do now is I'll

          22       ask Witness B then, thank you very much for the moment.

          23       Please leave us and you will be asked to come back and

          24       continue.  Can I just say, please don't speak with

          25       anyone about what you're telling us in court.


                                            28
 

 

 


           1   A.  Of course.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's very, very important.  If you

           3       go with Ms Day and come back at 2 o'clock.

           4                   (The witness left the court)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, members of the jury then.

           6       That's it for the next hour, so if you would like to

           7       leave us too and be ready for a 2 o'clock start.  Thank

           8       you very much.

          20   (1.03 pm)

          21                     (The short adjournment)

          22   (2.00 pm)

          23                      (Proceedings delayed)

          24   (2.06 pm)

 

                                            29
 

 

          19                  (In the presence of the jury)

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Hopefully the

          21       witness is coming in now.  That's good.

          22                (The witness returned into court)

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can I just mention.  Some documents were

          24       handed out to my learned friends a moment ago.  We

          25       thought they were redacted.  It turns out they are not,


                                            30
 

 


           1       not perfectly.  Ms Kemish is going to collect them back

           2       again.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.

           4           All right, make yourself comfortable, Witness B.

           5       You are still under the oath that you took this morning.

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So, once you are seated there and

           8       a little further forward so we can pick up all you are

           9       going to say into the microphone, Mr Underwood, had you

          10       concluded asking questions of Witness B?

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes, thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I call on the family.  Who's in,

          13       Mr Straw?

          14                      Questions by MR STRAW

          15   MR STRAW:  Thank you, sir.  Witness B, my name is Adam

          16       Straw, I represent the family of Mr Duggan.

          17   A.  How are you doing?

          18   Q.  I would just like to go back to the start of the

          19       incident, the screeching of the tyres?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Then the words that you heard shouted at that point.

          22       I think, is it right, that you told us earlier it was

          23       either "Put it down" or "Get down" --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  -- or something like that?


                                            31
 

 

 


           1   A.  Either "Put it down" or "Get down", yes.

           2   Q.  At the time those words were shouted, is it right that

           3       there were a number of men shouting at the same time?

           4   A.  Yeah.

           5   Q.  So a number of the police officers were shouting?

           6   A.  Were shouting, yes.

           7   Q.  Would it be fair to say it was something of a commotion?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Was the fact that there were these people shouting at

          10       the same time one of the reasons why you weren't sure

          11       why it was "Put it down" or "Get down" that was shouted?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Moving onto the point which you are -- I would like to

          14       just ask a few questions about a view that you had of

          15       Mr Duggan; is it right that you had a clear view of him?

          16   A.  Yeah.

          17   Q.  A clear view of his arms, upper body and head?

          18   A.  Well, his upper body first and then when he moved on

          19       towards Blackhorse Road then that's when his hands

          20       popped up, so yeah.

          21   Q.  When his hands popped up, did you have a clear view of

          22       that?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Were it was a bright clear day, wasn't it?

          25   A.  It was.


                                            32
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Can we have a look at some footage, please.  Mr Scott,

           2       I wonder if you could play just ten seconds -- this is

           3       the footage taken from the camera out of your window,

           4       just the first ten seconds, please, or thereabouts.

           5         (BBC footage was played to the court and ended)

           6           That's great.  It's become a bit blurred since it

           7       was paused, but we saw what it was like before.  Perhaps

           8       we could play back from the start, again, to that point

           9       again, please.

          10         (BBC footage was played to the court and ended)

          11   MR STERN:  Sorry to interrupt but this is material, of

          12       course, that the jury have not seen before.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This is the non-centred version, is

          14       it?

          15   MR STERN:  No.  There are two tapes, two disks.  The first

          16       is the one that the jury has seen, which takes

          17       15 minutes.  There is then one that is a continuation,

          18       with a much clearer camera, as the witness has already

          19       described, I think, with a camera-camera.  That is what

          20       you are looking at there, which none of -- I do not

          21       think the jury have seen before.  That's a further

          22       15 minutes or so.  The reason one can tell immediately

          23       that we have not seen it before is because you can see

          24       the orange uniform, the HEMS.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, it's a much clearer picture.


                                            33
 

 

 


           1           Mr Underwood, can you help us about this?

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  I hope so.  This is Witness A's footage.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Of course, I'll get her to prove this.  It's

           5       fair to say that it has not been shown before, I think.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.

           7   MR STERN:  Can I say I am not objecting to it being shown

           8       but just so everybody understands what it is.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you for curing the mystery, so

          10       we all understand what the position is.

          11           Sorry, Mr Straw, you are seeking this footage --

          12       you're asking Witness B about it?

          13           (To the witness) You want to say something?

          14   A.  With the videos, I took the videos and then Witness A

          15       took photo shots of it, so both videos were done by me,

          16       definitely.

          17   MR STRAW:  You took this one as well?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's have a look at it then.

          20   MR STRAW:  Sir, do you want to watch all of it?

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where does it start?

          22   MR STRAW:  Because there's some of the first aid footage in

          23       it, I would suggest it's perhaps best not to play it,

          24       unless there's something that you or the jury want to

          25       see.


                                            34
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you want ten seconds, let's have

           2       the ten seconds.

           3   MR STRAW:  Let's go back to the start and see the first 10

           4       or 15 seconds.

           5         (BBC footage was played to the court and ended)

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

           7   MR STRAW:  Thank you.  Witness B, is that the sort of view

           8       that you had?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  In fact, that was exactly from the window that you were

          11       looking out of?

          12   A.  That was the second window I was looking out from, which

          13       is -- this is the window that's in the living room and

          14       the kitchen.  The first pictures, the first video, was

          15       being taken from my bedroom, where the window -- you pop

          16       your head out and you can just see everything, you know,

          17       put it on (?) the way, everything clears a bit.

          18   MR STRAW:  Sorry, Mr Scott, could we have that still up

          19       again, please?

          20           This is a similar distance away from where you were

          21       when you were taking the mobile phone footage and you

          22       first looked out the window at the incident?

          23   A.  The reason why the camera is this close is because

          24       I zoomed in, whilst with the mobile I couldn't zoom in

          25       at all.


                                            35
 

 

 


           1   Q.  The quality of the mobile phone footage is less good,

           2       isn't it, than that?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Does this give us an idea of the sort of view that you

           5       had?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  So you could see people's hands?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Earlier you said that -- when you saw Mr Duggan, he

          10       tried to run off towards Tottenham Hale but police

          11       blocked his way.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  So he looked like he was trying to run away?

          14   A.  Well, yeah.  When he was on the sidewalk towards

          15       Tottenham Hale, yeah, he was running away.  There was

          16       only one police officer that blocked him and he was on

          17       the sidewalk, and that's when he turned around, tried to

          18       walk back -- going back towards Blackhorse Road.  There

          19       was another police officer standing right there as well.

          20   Q.  A few questions about Mr Duggan raising his forearms.

          21       Can you remember how did Mr Duggan look at the point

          22       when he raised his forearms?

          23   A.  Baffled, surprised.

          24   Q.  Baffled?

          25   A.  Yeah.  His body language was a bit like "What's going


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       on?" really, with his hands up, you know.

           2   Q.  Do you mind demonstrating how he held his hands up

           3       again, please?

           4   A.  A bit like that (indicates).

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we had better have it

           6       described.  So you've got your hands up, could you put

           7       your hands up again?

           8   A.  There we go (indicates).

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have both hands open, have you?

          10   A.  The right hand was clutching onto something.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  They are up the level of your ears,

          12       really, aren't they?

          13   A.  Yeah, up to the face.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But out?

          15   A.  But out.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The right hand you have curled round

          17       a little bit, because of what?

          18   A.  Yes, because I know it was a phone, most definitely

          19       a phone.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Because of something in his right

          21       hand, which you say is a phone.

          22   MR STRAW:  I think a couple of other things, his palms were

          23       facing forward; is that right?

          24   A.  Yeah, yes.

          25   Q.  So his palms were facing -- we know there's a phone in


                                            37
 

 

 


           1       one hand but his palms facing towards the officer who

           2       has a gun in the front of him?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  When you were demonstrating his upper arms were sort of

           5       down --

           6   A.  It was a bit like that really (indicates).

           7   Q.  So his upper arms fairly close to his sides -- sorry,

           8       his upper arms were up -- let me start again.

           9           So his forearms -- we have had his hands and they

          10       are facing forwards and then we come to the forearm,

          11       which is the bit below it, and those were up, facing

          12       upwards in the air?

          13   A.  Yes, like that (indicates).

          14   Q.  Then his upper arms, so the bicep and so on, was fairly

          15       close to his body?

          16   A.  Yeah, you could say that, like probably -- yeah, pretty

          17       close to his body, yeah.

          18   Q.  Just for completeness, if I can hand you a BlackBerry

          19       phone so you can demonstrate with a phone, that may be

          20       helpful.  (Handed)

          21           So if I'm the firearms officer with the gun, if

          22       you're facing me.

          23   A.  A bit like that (indicates).

          24   Q.  It's like that, is it?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            38
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Turn round so the jury can see as

           2       well.

           3   A.  (Indicates)  Yes.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Witness B.

           5   MR STRAW:  A few more things about this thing in his right

           6       hand then.  Keep hold of that, if you like, for the

           7       moment.  What sort of size was the thing in his right

           8       hand?

           9   A.  It was small.

          10   Q.  It was small?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  You said earlier that it was definitely a mobile phone

          13       or a BlackBerry?

          14   A.  Mm.

          15   Q.  It wasn't a gun?

          16   A.  No.

          17   Q.  This is a replica, an exact replica of the gun that was

          18       found on the grass verge near to the incident, except

          19       the colour.  So the gun that was found was black and

          20       silver-ish and there was a sock covering most but not

          21       all of it (indicates).

          22           Could I perhaps hand this up to you --

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  -- just for a comparison of sizes?

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we have seen that.


                                            39
 

 

 


           1   MR STRAW:  If you prefer not to --

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have it in your hand, I do not

           3       think there would be any advantage the witness having

           4       it.

           5   MR STRAW:  No problem at all.  It's significantly bigger, if

           6       you don't mind holding up the phone again.

           7   A.  (Indicates)  Yes.

           8   Q.  The object that you saw, is it right, it wasn't this

           9       size?

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  The thing in his right hand, that Mr Duggan had in his

          12       right hand, did he aim that object towards the officers?

          13   A.  No.  He didn't take any, like -- okay, back home when we

          14       go hunting, you are actually taking aim to shoot and he

          15       wasn't taking aim at all, he wasn't in any way forceful

          16       in any way, what I saw.  That's all I'm saying.

          17   Q.  You have seen people using guns in hunting; is that

          18       right?

          19   A.  I mean I've gone hunting back home and you proper need

          20       to take an aim and, you know, shoot, but he wasn't

          21       taking an aim.

          22   Q.  Was his body posed in any aggressive manner as if he was

          23       aiming at the officer?

          24   A.  No, no.

          25   Q.  He had his hands in the air?


                                            40
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Did he raise the object or point it at any of the

           3       officers?

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  At any stage did you see Mr Duggan throw the object --

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  -- from his right hand?

           8   A.  No.

           9   Q.  Did he keep the object in his hand until he was shot?

          10   A.  Well, after he collapsed, that was the last time I saw

          11       the object.

          12   Q.  Was he still holding the object in his hand at the point

          13       that he was collapsing, after he was shot?

          14   A.  I can't remember.

          15   Q.  What about at the point he fell down, was he still

          16       holding the object in his hand at the point he fell

          17       down?

          18   A.  When he fell down -- could you play that video again,

          19       please?

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The last one, the shot -- the still

          21       picture?

          22   A.  The still picture.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll ask for that to go up again if

          24       you want to refer to that.  (Pause)

          25           Do you want to stop that?


                                            41
 

 

 


           1           Does that help?

           2   A.  When he collapsed, this part of the cab was blocking my

           3       view, so even if -- like there, I couldn't actually see

           4       anything but I think the coppers when they started

           5       performing CPR and all of that on him, that's when they

           6       kind of -- they kept on moving his body about to get

           7       a proper angle, so that's -- when he got moved over

           8       here, that's when I had a perfect view of what they were

           9       doing as well.

          10   MR STRAW:  Okay.  That's very helpful, thanks.  Up until the

          11       point that he falls below that edge of the taxi you

          12       described, he didn't see him making any sudden or

          13       throwing movements?

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  It's right, isn't it, that he produced a witness

          16       statement today?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Did you see a copy of that witness statement after it

          19       had been written?

          20   A.  Yes, I was there.  I was giving it.

          21   Q.  Were you happy that it was accurate?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Now, it's right, isn't it, that there was also

          24       a transcript produced of the footage of the voices that

          25       had been heard on the footage?


                                            42
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Have you seen a copy of that transcript?

           3   A.  Yes, I have.

           4   Q.  Could we go to that, please.  Mr Scott, if you could

           5       please put up page CD32864.

           6           This is a note from the people who produced the

           7       transcript.  It's a forensics company, an expert

           8       company, and they say there at 11:

           9           "Audio transcript.  It is important to note that,

          10       despite our best endeavours, LGC ..."

          11           That's the company that produced it:

          12           "... cannot confirm the complete accuracy of the

          13       content of the transcript due to the quality of the

          14       audio or the identity of the persons involved.  Where

          15       the conversation of a person is unclear the words will

          16       appear in italics.  Where the conversation cannot be

          17       understood the world 'unintelligible' appears in

          18       brackets."

          19           This transcript was produced, we know, on

          20       9 October 2013.  Before it was produced, did you have

          21       an opportunity to go through and check whether it was

          22       accurate?

          23   A.  Yes, I did.

          24   Q.  Sorry, I may be slightly confused.  When was the first

          25       time that you saw -- see that that's above you there,


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       which has a description in it of what was said on the

           2       footage, do you remember -- do you want to see some of

           3       the rest of it just to check what it was?

           4           Let's have a look, for example, at page CD32876.  Do

           5       you recognise this?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  When was the first time that you saw this?

           8   A.  I think it was some time last week.

           9   Q.  Last week?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Okay.  Because this is actually produced some time ago,

          12       9 October.  So the first time you saw this was after it

          13       had actually been produced, wasn't it?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Was it last week that you had a chance to go through it

          16       and see whether or not it was accurate?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Would it be fair to say that some parts of it were not

          19       accurate so you made some corrections to it?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  For example, on this page here, we see a few entries

          22       saying "unintelligible" and so on, "no discernible

          23       dialogue", and then a little way down:

          24           "Male: what I'm surprised about, why didn't they

          25       cuff him ... that other dude?"


                                            44
 

 

 


           1   A.  That was the police officer that was standing in front

           2       of the thingy, because right after the shot I thought he

           3       was actually travelling with Mark Duggan in the car,

           4       basically, so -- how do I put it?  I kind of thought he

           5       was his friend because, all of a sudden, the police just

           6       grabbed him and put him in the car so I thought he was

           7       the one that was blocking Mark Duggan's way from going

           8       towards Tottenham Hale but then after he got shot,

           9       I just thought "Hey, is he his mate or something?"

          10       because the police grabbed him, put him in the car, were

          11       watching over him and talking to him and all of that,

          12       yeah.

          13   Q.  Okay.  Over the page, please 32877, again, we see some

          14       sections of this that say things like "unintelligible".

          15       Would it be fair to say this doesn't accurately reflect

          16       everything you said on the day?

          17   A.  No.

          18   Q.  The main paragraph there we can see about halfway down

          19       the page says this:

          20           "He jumped out (unintelligible)."

          21           Is that something that you corrected?

          22   A.  Yes.  Well, that bit --

          23   Q.  You mentioned this in your witness statement.  What did

          24       you actually say then?

          25   A.  That bit right there he jumped out but then's he's taken


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       out something, because I heard the police officers

           2       shouting at him "Put it down", "Get down".  The reason

           3       why I said "Oh, he must have taken out something", was

           4       just me assuming at the moment that, yeah, because the

           5       police officers were proper shouting at him "Get down",

           6       "Put it down", but I didn't see him taking out anything

           7       at the time.  So it was me explaining, assuming, to my

           8       girlfriend.

           9   Q.  Let me just pick that apart a bit.  You thought that the

          10       police officers either said "Get down" or "Put it down"?

          11   A.  Yes.  So that made me think instantly that he had

          12       something on him but I didn't see anything on him.

          13   Q.  If someone had been saying put it down -- no one has

          14       said that they said this -- if someone said they had

          15       been saying that, then you assume from that he must have

          16       something?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  When you actually came to see him, when he puts his

          19       hands up, it was quite clear that he didn't have a gun

          20       on him?

          21   A.  No.

          22   Q.  In your interview, just on that paragraph, for the first

          23       lines:

          24           "He jumped out ..."

          25           Then there's "unintelligible" in brackets.  In your


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       interview I think what you actually said there, although

           2       the people transcribing it couldn't hear, was "then

           3       tried to run" --

           4   A.  Mm.

           5   Q.  -- is that right?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  So that should read:

           8           "He jumped out then tried to run."

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  We also have seen a transcript of the interview you gave

          11       on Monday 25 November -- sorry, when I say "we", the

          12       advocates, the jury haven't seen it.  But it's right

          13       isn't it, you gave an interview last Monday to Judi

          14       Kemish and a couple of others?

          15   A.  Yeah.

          16   Q.  Have you seen a copy of the transcript of that

          17       interview?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  It's only two pages, isn't it?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  It's just in note form, so it's not even full sentences,

          22       just notes of what you said?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Would it be fair that it doesn't contain all of your

          25       evidence?


                                            47
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  You could say that, yes.

           2   Q.  Your witness statement that we have seen is much more

           3       detailed than that, isn't it?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Then the final document I would like to ask you about,

           6       please, is just this morning we have been given -- again

           7       "we" the advocates -- handwritten notes.  I wonder if,

           8       just for the jury's benefit, one of those could be put

           9       up, please: CD33640, please.  We've been told that

          10       that's notes of a conversation between a journalist, you

          11       and Witness A; is that your understanding of it?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Are they notes that you wrote though?

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  No?

          16   A.  No.

          17   Q.  Did you have any opportunity to check before they were

          18       written whether or not they were accurate?

          19   A.  No.  Only there's -- I think I only saw them this

          20       morning really, yes.

          21   MR STRAW:  Okay, thank you very much.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Thomas?

          23                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          24   MR THOMAS:  Good afternoon, Witness B.

          25   A.  Good afternoon.


                                            48
 

 

 


           1   Q.  My name's Mr Thomas, I represent the loved ones of Mark

           2       Duggan, okay?

           3           Before I start, sir, I understand that the actual

           4       mobile phones that Mark Duggan had are now in court.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  You would like that to be

           6       produced, would you?

           7   MR THOMAS:  Mr Straw asked for his phone back, so yes.

           8   A.  Yes.  (Handed)

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, let's just -- it's a mobile

          10       phone rather than --

          11   MR THOMAS:  There were two mobile phones.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  One was in the taxi, that was left.

          13   MR THOMAS:  I want -- the jury ought to see the actual phone

          14       that Mark had.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  I don't know whether either of

          16       them have been forensically dealt with or can be handled

          17       or the gloves are needed.  It's probably best for gloves

          18       to be used.  (Pause)

          19           Are there any other topics of questioning we can

          20       deal with before we get to this or --

          21   MR THOMAS:  Sir, I think they have just found them.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We have some gloves.  There we are.

          23       (Pause)

          24           Have we managed to open the box?

          25           You have the glove on, so can you just pick out


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       what's inside the box, please, Ms Kemish.

           2   MR THOMAS:  The witness does not need to put gloves on.

           3   MS KEMISH:  Sorry, it's attached to the box.  (Pause)

           4   MR THOMAS:  I wonder if Ms Kemish --

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you spin round, Ms Kemish, and

           6       just show us all this --

           7   MR THOMAS:  I wonder if Ms Kemish would also be handed the

           8       gun.  Hold both of them up like that, please

           9       (indicates), just so we can just get a comparison in

          10       relation to the size.  So that's the first.  Ms Kemish,

          11       could you hold the phone in a grip like that and the gun

          12       as well.

          13           Now, can we do the same with the second phone.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Put those down.  Get the second one

          15       out.

          16   MR STERN:  I am starting to think the witness is superfluous

          17       to requirements here.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm not sure what's going on here.

          19       Let's get the second phone out and then we'll see what

          20       happens.

          21   MR THOMAS:  If Mr Stern had a little bit of patience.

          22       (Pause)

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just hold that up for us please,

          24       Ms Kemish.

          25   MR THOMAS:  Again, with the gun.  Ms Kemish, could you face


                                            50
 

 

 


           1       the witness and hold up the items.  Thank you.  Now, the

           2       jury.  Thank you Ms Kemish, that's it.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Just put those down

           4       somewhere.  Now, we have a question for the witness,

           5       Witness B.  Right, thank you.

           6   MR THOMAS:  Witness B, those were the two phones that were

           7       apparently found in or around the scene; do you follow.

           8   A.  Mm.

           9   Q.  You have just seen the size of both phones.

          10   A.  (Nods).

          11   Q.  Would you agree that there's not much difference between

          12       the size of the phones; would you agree with that?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  You've seen both of those phones compared with the

          15       replica gun, which is of the same size and dimension of

          16       the gun that was found on the grassy area; do you

          17       follow?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Help the jury with this: in your mind, is there any

          20       doubt whatsoever that there was a phone, as opposed to

          21       a gun, in Mark Duggan's hand?

          22   A.  It was a phone.  Like I've always said from day one.  It

          23       was a phone.

          24   Q.  Again, just to underline it.  The object that we saw,

          25       the gun, was there an object of that size and with those


                                            51
 

 

 


           1       dimensions in Mark Duggan's hands?

           2   A.  No.

           3   MR THOMAS:  I shall move on.  I wonder if Mr Scott would be

           4       kind enough to put the footage on, it doesn't matter, it

           5       could be the footage we were just looking at, and pause

           6       it.

           7           That will do, yes.  All right.  I now want to turn

           8       to Mark Duggan's movements, just for clarity, so we are

           9       absolutely crystal clear as to what your evidence is.

          10       As we are looking at the minicab, I appreciate that when

          11       you -- can you clarify this for us: when you were first

          12       drawn to this scene across the road from where you were

          13       living, I think you said you heard some screeching; is

          14       that right?

          15   A.  Car tyres.

          16   Q.  Car tyres.  Was it this window or the other window you

          17       were looking out of, the bedroom window or the living

          18       room window?

          19   A.  The bedroom window.

          20   Q.  You've got a similar view.

          21   A.  The bedroom window is the first window on the edge of

          22       the building so I could see the whole road.

          23   Q.  You can see the whole thing?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  You can see the whole thing, all right?  You can see the


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       direction that the minicab is pointing in, it's pointing

           2       towards the Tube station.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Just help the jury with this, just so we have understood

           5       your evidence correctly.  When Mark Duggan initially got

           6       out of the minicab, you said that he went to run in one

           7       direction and then he turned and he went to run in

           8       another direction, correct; have I understood that

           9       correctly?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  The direction he first went to run in, was that in the

          12       direction of where the Tube station is?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  You said he was on the pavement, how many steps did he

          15       take, roughly?

          16   A.  Towards the Tube station?

          17   Q.  Towards the Tube station.

          18   A.  It was the length of a car.  So he was --

          19   Q.  Could you stand up, please, and just point, using

          20       that --

          21   A.  So let's say half of this minicab, right here

          22       (indicates) and there was an Insignia parked right there

          23       and half of that and there was a copper standing right

          24       there.

          25   Q.  On the pavement where you are indicating?


                                            53
 

 

 


           1   A.  On the pavement, yeah.

           2   Q.  All right, thank you.  Now, you said that there was the

           3       car that was in front of the minicab -- an Insignia,

           4       I think you indicated?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Right.  As Mark Duggan ran between the front of the

           7       minicab towards the rear of the Insignia, you could see

           8       his hands, could you?

           9   A.  Well, when he came to that bit (indicates)?

          10   Q.  Yes.

          11   A.  Yes.  Just that bit right there.

          12   Q.  Yes, you could see his hands?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  You said that there was a police officer standing there

          15       blocking his way --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- with a gun?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Mark Duggan stops --

          20   A.  Turned around.

          21   Q.  -- turns round --

          22   A.  Starts running the other direction.

          23   Q.  -- starts running in the other direction?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Just so we are absolutely clear about this, you say


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       there's another officer there?

           2   A.  That was standing at the back (indicates).

           3   Q.  Could you stand up and show us, please.

           4   A.  (Indicates) He was either -- he was standing on the

           5       sidewalk, either -- right there -- yeah.

           6   Q.  Was he moving?

           7   A.  No.

           8   Q.  This second officer, he too had a gun?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Just so we're clear, roughly how far did Mark Duggan get

          11       before he stopped when he saw the second officer?

          12   A.  He got up to about there (indicates).

          13   Q.  Right.  We can all see that, you're pointing about the

          14       rear of the minicab?

          15   A.  The rear back there.  (Inaudible).

          16   Q.  You can sit down, please.  Now, I just want to go

          17       through the next phase of your evidence carefully if

          18       I may, just to make sure that I have understood what you

          19       are saying.  So, he's facing the officer that's nearer

          20       to the Land Rover?

          21   A.  Yes, that has his back towards Blackhorse Road.

          22   Q.  That has his back towards -- just so we're clear,

          23       Blackhorse Road is what, to the left of that photograph?

          24   A.  Yes, to the left.

          25   Q.  Now, that officer has a gun, correct --


                                            55
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- aiming at Mark Duggan?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Mark Duggan, so far as you could tell, sees that

           5       officer?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Now, I just want to be clear on this.  When Mark Duggan

           8       sees that officer, had he moved at all from when he saw

           9       the first officer, the first officer being the one

          10       that's nearest to the Tube station.

          11   A.  Yeah, when he saw that officer, he ran back towards

          12       there.

          13   Q.  Give the jury some idea as to how many steps Mark Duggan

          14       had moved?

          15   A.  Let's say after the Insignia and to the back of the

          16       people's carrier.

          17   Q.  So we're talking about maybe the length and possibly

          18       a half length and a half of the people's carrier,

          19       something in that region?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  All right.  When Mark Duggan sees the second officer --

          22       because it's your evidence he did see the second

          23       officer; is that right?

          24   A.  Most definitely.

          25   Q.  No doubt about that in your mind?


                                            56
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, because he paused and (indicates).

           2   Q.  This is what I want to look at with you.  He pauses, he

           3       stops?

           4   A.  Mm.

           5   Q.  Help the jury with this.  The other officer -- this is

           6       the officer that's nearer to Blackhorse Road, this is

           7       the officer that's near the Land Rover, the one with his

           8       gun aimed and pointed at Mark Duggan -- was he in

           9       a position to have seen Mark Duggan pause and stop?

          10   A.  Yeah.

          11   Q.  Sorry?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Can you speak into the microphone?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Let's break it down a little bit more: was it at that

          16       point that Mark Duggan raised his hands?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Now, you've indicated that he's raising his hands like

          19       this (indicates) and you said that one hand is open,

          20       palms forward, and the other hand -- I think it's the

          21       right hand that's gripping something --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- and the left palm is open?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  You have just told us there's no doubt in your mind that


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       there was a phone --

           2   A.  It was definitely a phone.

           3   Q.  -- in the right hand that he's gripping and he's doing

           4       that (indicates)?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Just help the jury with this.  He did that whilst facing

           7       the officer nearest the Land Rover, did he?

           8   A.  Yeah.

           9   Q.  Can I just be clear on this: the officer that's facing

          10       Mark that's near the Land Rover -- I'm going to call him

          11       V53 because that's who we've been told he is, okay?

          12   A.  Okay.

          13   Q.  V53, from so far as you could see, he saw Mark Duggan

          14       stop?

          15   A.  Mm.

          16   Q.  Is that right?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Have I understood that correctly?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  He saw Mark Duggan raise his hands?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Now, I would describe that as: as if surrendering.  Is

          23       that how you would describe it?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  You said that Mark Duggan looked as if he was -- what


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       was your words?

           2   A.  Baffled.

           3   Q.  Baffled, he was trapped.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  There was nowhere for him to go?

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  There was an officer there with a gun, there was an

           8       officer blocking his view with a gun, correct?

           9   A.  Mm-hmm.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Is that right?

          11   A.  That is right, yes.

          12   Q.  Were there any other officers there surrounding him?

          13   A.  Yes.  You had one that was on the road --

          14   Q.  Can we put the photo up again, please.  Witness B, you

          15       just indicate -- so we've got one officer on either side

          16       on the pavement; where do you say the other officers

          17       were that you saw?

          18   A.  There was one standing in front of the BMW.

          19   Q.  Sorry, could you stand up and point so we're clear as to

          20       what your evidence is?

          21   A.  There was one standing in front of the BMW (indicates),

          22       I think he must have come out of the BMW, and there was

          23       another officer along the road on this side (indicates)

          24       right here (indicates).

          25   Q.  All right.  So far as you could see, was there anywhere


                                            59
 

 

 


           1       that Mark Duggan could have run to?

           2   A.  No.

           3   Q.  He was trapped?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  So there he is, trapped, arms up, as if surrendering,

           6       and what do you say you hear next?

           7   A.  Two shots.

           8   Q.  You correct me if I am wrong, I do not want to mistake

           9       your evidence.  Are you saying that Mark Duggan was shot

          10       when he looked as if he was surrendering?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Any doubt about that, Witness B?

          13   A.  (Shakes head).  None whatsoever.  I mean, if you go to

          14       a point where you're being asked and you have your hands

          15       up and you pause and you proper have this worried look

          16       on your face, I'll take that as surrendering really.

          17   Q.  Did you see any reason whatsoever for Mark Duggan to

          18       have been shot?

          19   A.  (Shakes head).  No.

          20   Q.  Is that why you got your camera?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Now, I want you to answer this next question as frankly

          23       as you can.  Why was it that you didn't take this to the

          24       police but you took it to the BBC?  Help us.

          25   A.  Erm -- to be honest, I'm just going to be honest.


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       I don't really trust the police in any way so not only

           2       with -- not just because of this case right here but

           3       things with me as well, certain things that have

           4       happened so I just can't relate to them really so --

           5   Q.  Did what you see inspire you with confidence in the

           6       police?

           7   A.  No.  No confidence whatsoever.

           8   MR THOMAS:  Just bear with me one moment.  (Pause)

           9           That's all I ask.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Thomas.

          11           Yes, Mr Stern?

          12                      Questions by MR STERN

          13   MR STERN:  Thank you, sir.  I wonder if we could have a copy

          14       of the transcript of the footage taken by this witness

          15       and also a copy of an interview that he had on

          16       25 November with the team, the Inquest team, sir.

          17       I think there are copies for the jury.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are there?  (Handed)

          19           Thank you very much, all right.  Yes, if everyone is

          20       content the jury should have this, it will be C36,

          21       I think, members of the jury, when you've got them then.

          22       Put them behind that -- I say divider, it may be that

          23       you have run out of dividers, but put it at the back of

          24       the jury bundle at C36.

          25   MR STERN:  Yes, thank you.


                                            61
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I won't interrupt you now but we'll

           2       have a break in about ten minutes' time.  It may be,

           3       I don't know what the position is about Witness A, but

           4       it may be that we might try to interpose her, so if

           5       there are any questions you feel impinge on her, if you

           6       could ask them now, that might be useful.

           7   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.  I wonder if we could start

           8       by just looking at the first set of film, which you

           9       took, I think, on, a BlackBerry phone; is that correct?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  If we could just have that up from the start.  Just from

          12       the beginning, it doesn't really matter where it is.

          13           So just pause it there, if we could just hold it.

          14       As I understand it, that is the view that you have when

          15       you start filming?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  I think you describe yourself as being on the 9th floor

          18       of the building --

          19   A.  (Nods).

          20   Q.  -- 150 metres -- the way you put it in your statement --

          21       away from what we can see down there?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  All right.  Now, that is taken with the window closed?

          24   A.  No, the window was open.

          25   Q.  The window was open, was it?  So you were taking it with


                                            62
 

 

 


           1       the window open?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  I see, all right.  So that's the same view as you had --

           4       if you could make sure you speak up, otherwise people

           5       cannot hear what you are saying.

           6   A.  Of course.

           7   Q.  That's the type of view you have when you are looking

           8       down?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  The first thing, as I understand it, is you heard some

          11       tyres and you were in your bedroom --

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  -- and this film is taken from your bedroom.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  You had to get out of your window to see?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Then, when you went there, you heard some shouting;

          18       I think you described at least four people shouting?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  They were male voices?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  You heard, according to what you said at the time, "Put

          23       it down"?

          24   A.  "Put it down" or "Get down".

          25   Q.  Let's just have a look, shall we?  Can we have a look at


                                            63
 

 

 


           1       the transcript of what you said at the time.

           2       I appreciate that you are saying "or 'Put it down'" now,

           3       but let's look at what you said at the time.  CD32877,

           4       so this is 20 minutes or so into the filming.  What's

           5       written there is:

           6           "... He jumped out, [unintelligible]."

           7           That, we'll come back to:

           8           "But then he's taking out something, because I heard

           9       him shout [unintelligible], 'Put it down, put it down'."

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Is there anywhere on this transcript that we can see the

          12       words "Get down"?

          13   A.  Right, the word get down is not on there.

          14   Q.  No?

          15   A.  But then, with that bit of the transcript right there,

          16       like I have said before, it was me assuming and not --

          17       could you -- hold on, what page was that?

          18   Q.  32877, 20 of 26 if you want to look -- if that's easier.

          19   A.  Thank you.  Right:

          20           "... He jumped out ... but then [he takes] out

          21       something, because I heard [the police officers]."

          22   Q.  Yes?

          23   A.  Yes.  Shout "Get down" or "Put it down".  I didn't say

          24       "Get down" at the time on that, yeah.

          25   Q.  No, no, you didn't say it then.  You said "Put it down",


                                            64
 

 

 


           1       didn't you?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Now, if we look at the second document that you had, the

           4       interview, which is just two pages, you have it there?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Can you see on the second page, right at the bottom, it

           7       says "Amendments to transcript"?  The last one deals

           8       with page 20, which is the page we're looking at, at the

           9       bottom of the page it says:

          10           "'... He jumped out, [unintelligible]' should

          11       actually be 'He jumped out then tried to run'."

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  So that was the only amendment that you made to that

          14       particular passage.  We can listen to it if you want but

          15       you say, do you not, that:

          16           "... he's taking out something, because I heard him

          17       shout ... 'Put it down, put it down'."

          18   A.  I heard -- okay, it came out wrong on that.  With me

          19       referring to "him" I was referring to the police

          20       officers.

          21   Q.  I understand that?

          22   A.  Yes, and on top of that, "Put it down", I only said "Put

          23       it down" at the time but it could have been "Put it

          24       down" and it could have been "Get down".  It was down,

          25       so I don't want to actually contradict myself by saying


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       "Oh, it could have been -- it was 'Put it down' when it

           2       could have been 'Get down'".

           3   Q.  All right.  Let's look if we can a little further on in

           4       this transcript.  It's at page 23 of 26.  Almost

           5       immediately following that you're saying to Witness A,

           6       I think, isn't it, who's present --

           7   A.  (Nods).

           8   Q.  -- "Go and contact the BBC.  If they want the footage

           9       there's a shooting in Tottenham Hale and then, you say:

          10           "Boy, that's what I'm trying to do, man!

          11       [Redacted], go call BBC and find out if they want the

          12       footage of this, man!  ... Just call them up and they'll

          13       want this footage [et cetera]."

          14           So you went, or at least Witness A went, to the BBC

          15       and provided them, initially with a photograph and then

          16       with some footage; is that right?

          17   A.  We called them up first, nobody would get in touch or

          18       anything like that, and they sent a reporter down that

          19       night but couldn't get in contact with us but then the

          20       next day they contacted us and then my girlfriend went

          21       and spoke to them, yes.

          22   Q.  Yes.  Then the footage was provided to the BBC --

          23   A.  Yes, it was.

          24   Q.  -- and you were paid for it?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            66
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You were paid for the second footage, I think, as well,

           2       or as well as the stills?

           3   A.  Second -- no, I wasn't paid for the second footage.

           4       I was paid for the mobile phone footages.  I was just

           5       paid for the footage from the camera and the still

           6       pictures, yes.

           7   Q.  This was when, in August 2011?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  You refused to meet with or cooperate with the police or

          10       indeed the IPCC --

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  -- but you did have a meeting, did you not, with people

          13       from the BBC --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- in April 2012.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  If we look, please, at page CD33640, it says, I think,

          18       at the bottom:

          19           "JS's conversation with Witness A and B on

          20       12 April 2012."

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  We have only received these today, the same day as you;

          23       you received them today, didn't you?

          24   A.  Yes.  Can I ask a question quickly?

          25   Q.  Yes, of course?


                                            67
 

 

 


           1   A.  Don't I have to -- I was told that I could actually say

           2       whether I wanted this admissible in --

           3   Q.  Oh, really?

           4   A.  That was my knowledge to it, so if I wanted to actually

           5       say, yes, I wanted it admissible or, no, if I didn't

           6       want it admissible.

           7   Q.  I do not know who told you that and I don't want to ask.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In relation to these notes?

           9   A.  Yes, in relation to these notes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's someone who was taking the

          11       notes, was it?

          12   MR STERN:  Or your lawyer, do you mean.  If it's your lawyer

          13       I do not want to know what conversations you had with

          14       your lawyer.

          15   MR BUNTING:  I can assist.  This was the message from your

          16       staff, I believe, sir.  If that assists it was to -- if

          17       it was just so that this could be disclosed amongst the

          18       other interested parties with Witness B's consent, so

          19       Witness B saw it first.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This particular note?

          21   MR BUNTING:  Yes.

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think the genesis of this is that when we

          23       asked the BBC for this, the BBC said "Yes, release to

          24       the Coroner, the Coroner to decide to order disclosure

          25       of this or it will be disclosed if Witness B consents".


                                            68
 

 

 


           1       So I think the BBC put that condition on it and what

           2       happened, as I understand it, is you ordered the

           3       disclosure.

           4   MS GRACE:  Perhaps I can help.  I'm an assistant for the

           5       BBC.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I had not realised you were here,

           7       very good to see you.

           8   MS GRACE:  That's not what happened.  I was asked on

           9       yesterday evening or the night before to disclose all of

          10       the notes of any conversation that the journalists had

          11       with Witness B and I was told that it would be only done

          12       with Witness B's consent.  I (he?) then asked for

          13       clarification and it was clarified that it would be

          14       with -- certainly then we had a conversation about

          15       whether Witness B should, in fact, see the notes

          16       beforehand before he gave that consent.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay, not to worry.  So these are

          18       the notes.  You're going to be asked some questions

          19       about it.  We are also going to have a break.  So

          20       I think for the moment what we'll do is have that break.

          21       You've got a barrister here, Mr Bunting, who if you want

          22       to speak to him about it, then please do, about this

          23       issue, if that's all right.  Then we'll see what the

          24       position is after that break.  But just stay there for

          25       the moment and we'll let the jury go first this time,


                                            69
 


           1       please.

           2           So members of the jury, if you would like to leave

           3       us for ten minutes or so.

           4           Cameras off.

 

                                            70
 

          19   (3.02 pm)

          20                         (A short break)

          21   (3.19 pm)

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, Mr Underwood, are we now able

          23       to call Witness A?

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes, sir.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  I'll ask witness to come in


                                            71
 

 

 


           1       once we have the jury in.  Can we have the jury, please?

           2                  (In the presence of the jury)

           3           Thank you very much, members of the jury, we have

           4       been able to get agreement with everybody.  I am very

           5       thankful to everyone, to allow Witness A to give her

           6       evidence so she can be dealt with this afternoon and we

           7       can resume with Witness B once she is concluded.

           8           So I think, Mr Underwood, you now propose to call

           9       Witness A?

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can we have Ms A forward, thank you.

          12                       WITNESS A (affirmed)

          13                   (The witness was anonymised)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much indeed.  Come

          15       and have a seat in front of you.  Be aware that what you

          16       say is hopefully loud and clear so it can be picked up

          17       on that microphone in front of you.  Mr Underwood is

          18       going to ask you some questions.

          19                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon.

          21   A.  Good afternoon.

          22   Q.  We are calling you Witness A.  We have a piece of paper

          23       with a name on, can you have a look at it, please, and

          24       check that it is yours?

          25   A.  Yes, that's correct, that's me.


                                            72
 

 

 


           1   Q.  That can go up to the Coroner.  (Handed)

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  We are asking about things that happened on

           4       4 August 2011.

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Were you in the bedroom at your flat in Emily Bowes Court

           7       then?

           8   A.  Yes, I was.

           9   Q.  Did something draw your attention to something going on

          10       outside?

          11   A.  Yes, the noise from outside.

          12   Q.  What sort of noise was it?

          13   A.  Screeching of the tyres, shouting and then I heard the

          14       gunshots.

          15   Q.  Right, was Witness B in the same room as you?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Were you able to get a view out of the window from that

          18       room?

          19   A.  No, not immediately, as Witness B was blocking my view.

          20   Q.  Did you hear anything said from outside?

          21   A.  No.

          22   Q.  Did you manage to get a view out of some other window?

          23   A.  Yes.  I went into the kitchen and then I could see what

          24       was happening.

          25   Q.  Right.  I think I wrongly told people that you took some


                                            73
 

 

 


           1       footage on a camera; did you take footage on a camera?

           2   A.  I took the stills and it was Witness B who took the

           3       footage.

           4   Q.  Right.  If we could just have a look at a snapshot of

           5       that footage, it will come up on the screen.  Better

           6       still, a still photograph coming up; is this one of

           7       your --

           8   A.  Yes, it is.

           9   Q.  Is that the view then from the kitchen?

          10   A.  Yes, this is from the kitchen window.

          11   Q.  There's a transcript of video; have you had

          12       an opportunity to look at that transcript?

          13   A.  Yes, I have.

          14   Q.  Can you help us with any of the missing words or --

          15   A.  Not really, no.

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  If you wait there,

          17       other people might have questions.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, let's see what other questions

          19       there are.

          20           Mr Straw?

          21   MR STRAW:  No, thank you.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas?

          23           No, Mr Stern?

          24                      Questions by MR STERN

          25   MR STERN:  As I understand it, you went with Witness B to


                                            74
 

 

 


           1       the BBC?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  You were present when he spoke to people there on

           4       12 April and 18 April?

           5   A.  Yes, I'm not sure about the dates.

           6   Q.  Don't worry about the dates.  But you went to see the

           7       BBC in April 2011, does that make sense -- 2012, I beg

           8       your pardon -- in April 2012, and you were present, were

           9       you?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Have you seen any notes in relation to the conversation?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  Has anyone spoken to you about those notes?

          14   A.  No.  Well, I knew there were some notes available that

          15       might be disclosed but I don't know what the notes are.

          16   Q.  Right.  You knew that notes were being taken at the

          17       time?

          18   A.  Well, yes, they seemed to be jotting things down.  But

          19       it was very informal -- it was very informal.

          20   Q.  Yes, the conversation was informal --

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  -- but they were writing notes at the time?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Right.  Do you remember Witness B indicating -- I have

          25       not got a ruling, sir, in relation to this --


                                            75
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you're asking her from her

           2       recollection then you can ask her directly, on her

           3       recollection.  What you cannot do is put the notes to

           4       her.  You cannot actually put the note to her because

           5       it's not her note.

           6   MR STERN:  No, I wouldn't do that.  What Witness A was

           7       saying was that -- Witness B --

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What who was saying?  What she was

           9       saying?

          10   MR STERN:  No, no, what Witness B was saying, in your

          11       presence, as I understand it, was that he was saying

          12       that he had heard somebody say "Put it down".

          13   A.  Yes -- to be honest, I can't recall what we spoke about

          14       at the BBC.  We've had lots of different conversations

          15       with lots of different people, it gets very confusing.

          16       But -- no, I'm just going by the footage now because

          17       I remember "Put it down" from the footage, but I don't

          18       remember what was said at the BBC, exactly, so --

          19   Q.  You remember Witness B saying "Put it down" on the

          20       footage?

          21   A.  Yes, on the footage, I remember.

          22   Q.  You say you had lots of conversations, it's become

          23       confusing; who have you had lots of conversations with?

          24   A.  The BBC, I've also spoken to the IPCC.

          25   Q.  When did you speak to the IPCC?


                                            76
 

 

 


           1   A.  Well, I can't remember.  Erm -- they just -- they came

           2       into the house but it was a very quick conversation,

           3       again they didn't ask me many questions.  They were more

           4       interested in the footage and then -- when I didn't have

           5       the footage then they went so --

           6   Q.  Did they ever speak to Witness B?

           7   A.  No.

           8   Q.  Right, so they just spoke to you?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you say you didn't have the

          12       footage, you handed the whole footage over, did you, you

          13       didn't keep a copy or anything like that?

          14   A.  No, no, I handed everything over, yes, you have

          15       everything, yes.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          17           Mr Keith, any questions?

          18   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's just see if there's anyone on

          20       the back row.

          21   MR BUTT:  No, thank you.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Ms Leek?  Mr Glasson?

          23   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There's no other questions then to

          25       be asked.  I certainly have no other questions, so thank


                                            77
 

 

 


           1       you very much for coming a long way, I won't say where

           2       from, but certainly a long way from here to help us.

           3       That concludes your evidence, you're free to go.

           4   A.  Thank you very much, bye-bye.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           6                      (The witness withdrew)

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  As soon as convenient, we'll have Witness B

           8       back.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We can stay here, can we not, under

          10       the circumstances and just ask for the witness.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  I know the room he's in is quite a long way

          12       away.  (Pause)

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We will just

          14       hope that someone will find Witness B.

          15   MR STRAW:  While we are waiting, the transcript of the

          16       footage has been handed up to the jury.  Witness B in

          17       his witness statement notes a number of aspects of the

          18       transcript are wrong and puts corrections in his

          19       statement.  I wonder if copies of his statement can also

          20       be handed round to the jury?

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's see how we go on that.  If

          22       there are things which we need to write on from that,

          23       seeing what answers he gives, then we have it there and

          24       the jury are quite able to correct or to add anything

          25       that they've got.  But if most of the statement goes in,


                                            78
 

 

 


           1       it may be that that might be preferable.

           2   MR STRAW:  We have them if you need it.

           3   MR BUNTING:  For the avoidance of doubt, sir, he also

           4       corrects in his statement some of the contents of the

           5       interview notes that my learned friend Mr Stern --

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think that's what Mr Straw was

           7       saying --

           8   MR BUNTING:  He corrects both the transcript and the

           9       interview notes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right, thank you very much.

          11       We'll see where he is and see how we get on with his

          12       evidence.  (Pause)

          13                      WITNESS B (continued)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you would like to come back into

          15       the witness box, please, B.

          16           All right, make yourself comfortable.  The cameras

          17       can come back on now.  Have a seat.  That's right.

          18   A.  Thank you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are still under the oath you

          22       have taken and Mr Stern was in the middle of asking

          23       questions.

          24                Questions by MR STERN (continued)

          25   MR STERN:  I was about to deal with the BBC note and you


                                            79
 

 

 


           1       will remember there was some interruption.  So I am

           2       going to go back to that, if I may.

           3           As I understand it, is what you are saying that you

           4       thought that the BBC notes would never see the light of

           5       day?

           6   A.  No, it's not that.  I don't mind the notes being

           7       admissible, being in court or anything like that, but

           8       I would like to be informed.  See, my girlfriend was the

           9       one who actually informed me and yesterday I was

          10       supposed to actually go and actually view the notes but

          11       I didn't have time, nobody was there at the time, so

          12       I would like to view the notes first before we actually

          13       go through them.

          14   Q.  Did you not view the notes when you made your statement

          15       today?

          16   A.  No, I viewed them but I can't understand the writing or

          17       anything, can you?

          18   Q.  I'll be able to help you?

          19   A.  Okay.

          20   Q.  If we look at 33640, which came up on the screen -- it's

          21       still there now.  We haven't got a statement from the

          22       BBC because, as I say, we only got them today, so I'll

          23       try to do my best to help you but in that regard it

          24       appears as if the "A" and "B" refer to you and

          25       Witness A, which may explain why you are called


                                            80
 

 

 


           1       Witness B.  If we look, we can see that this is

           2       12 April 2012.  You have a copy in front of you, haven't

           3       you?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  12 April 2012, at 5.18, it looks like, pm, to the

           6       left-hand side, and A says:

           7           "I heard two shots ..."

           8           B says:

           9           "Heard 'Put it down'."

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Did you say that to the BBC?

          12   A.  Yes, at the time.

          13   Q.  Yes.

          14   A.  I mean, if it's on the notes, yes.

          15   Q.  Yes.  Then a little further down, let's leave out A:

          16           "Heard screeching of car Land Rover ..."

          17           Then there's another car I am not sure what that is:

          18           "Thought it was MI5 operating."

          19   A.  (Laughs)  Yes.

          20   Q.  "Operation" or "operating", "operation".  Then if we

          21       look again:

          22           "Put head out of window (get camera footage).

          23           "Heard [screaming/screeching], 'Put it down, put it

          24       down'."

          25           Yes?


                                            81
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  So that is what you thought on 4 August 2011 was said --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- and indeed in April 2012.

           5   A.  In April 2012?

           6   Q.  Yes, this note here that we're looking at?

           7   A.  This one right here and what was the first date.

           8   Q.  4 August 2011, the day of the incident.

           9   A.  4 August, yes.

          10   Q.  It was only, wasn't it, on 25 November, the other day,

          11       that you first said that it was either "Get down" or

          12       "Put it down" --

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  -- in 2013 --

          15   A.  In 2013, yes.

          16   Q.  -- when you knew you were going to have to come and give

          17       evidence?

          18   A.  It's not that when I knew I was going to have to come

          19       and give evidence.  It's just that you want to be sure

          20       and I don't want to come out here and actually look like

          21       a liar, so I would rather actually say what I heard: it

          22       was either "Put it down" or "Get down".

          23   Q.  So did you want to look a liar to the BBC when you told

          24       them it was "Put it down"?

          25   A.  At the time when I actually was talking to the BBC at


                                            82
 

 

 


           1       the time -- I mean, it was early stages, it just

           2       happened so -- I mean, going back, sitting down thinking

           3       about it even more, then yeah.  I mean, even on the

           4       video you can actually hear the screaming as well, you

           5       know.  I studied the video since the day I knew I was

           6       coming back for the Inquiry.

           7   Q.  Let's look a little further on if we can, look at 33642.

           8       You set out there that you don't trust the police, that

           9       you have been stopped and searched all the time?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Obviously, you are not a fan of the police?

          12   A.  No, I'm not.

          13   Q.  No.  All right.  Let me look a little further down.  Can

          14       we see at the foot of the page, just under the two

          15       little jagged lines there:

          16           "What's going on, he gets out of car, 'Put it

          17       down' ..."

          18           Then over the page:

          19           "... split second, then fire, 2 shots, then phone

          20       went flying."

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Do you see that?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  The phone went flying: why did you say that to the BBC?

          25   A.  Well, at the time you had stuff flying about, so --


                                            83
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Sorry, "At the time" -- I didn't catch it?

           2   A.  At the time you had stuff flying about.

           3   Q.  Stuff flying about?

           4   A.  So it was just my thought that the phone, yeah, flew

           5       out, but then I didn't actually see the phone fly out.

           6   Q.  So you told the BBC that you saw the phone fly out of

           7       his hand --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- but you didn't actually see that?

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  So you told what you knew to be a lie to the BBC?

          12   A.  Well, it wasn't like a lie, I mean, at the heat of the

          13       moment, it was just what I thought I saw.

          14   Q.  I see.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  So at the time, on 4 August 2011, you thought you saw

          17       a phone, or whatever it was, went flying?

          18   A.  Out of his hand, yes.

          19   Q.  Yes.  But it went a bit further than that actually,

          20       didn't it, what you saw, because, if we look at 33647,

          21       please:

          22           "Phone always in hand -- initially thought gun."

          23           I cannot read what the word is on the right, so I'm

          24       sorry.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  "Shiny".


                                            84
 

 

 


           1   MR STERN:  Thank you, "initially thought gun", and maybe

           2       shiny, let's leave shiny.

           3           On 4 August 2011, did you initially, at that stage,

           4       think that he had a gun in his hand?

           5   A.  No.  The only time --

           6   Q.  Why did you tell the BBC that?

           7   A.  Time out.

           8   Q.  Sorry?

           9   A.  Can I refer to the -- hold on a sec.  (Pause)

          10           Just goes back to the transcript where --

          11   Q.  Of course, what page would you like to look at?

          12   A.  (Pause)

          13   Q.  Sorry, if you tell me the point you're looking for

          14       I might be able to help you?

          15   A.  "He jumped out".

          16   Q.  Yes, page 20 of 26?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  "He jumped out, tried to run ..."

          19           That's your correction:

          20           "But then he's taking out something, because I heard

          21       him shout 'Put it down, put it down'."

          22   A.  Exactly.  That was me assuming right there.  Then with

          23       this one it was a shiny thing, it wasn't a gun, I didn't

          24       say it was a gun.  I said it was a phone from the onset.

          25       So how gun came into this bit right here -- "shiny" --


                                            85
 

 

 


           1       "shiny" is there, but "gun" is also there, but why is

           2       "BlackBerry" on there as well?

           3   Q.  Let's look at the rest of that sentence.  What you have

           4       put there is --

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He has not put anything.  I think

           6       you have to be careful about what's being said and

           7       whether -- the first question ought to be did he

           8       actually say it?

           9   MR STERN:  He did say -- I did ask him that before and he

          10       did "If it's written here, I must have said it".

          11   A.  If it's written, then yeah, probably I said it, yes.

          12   Q.  We can always hear from somebody from the BBC if it's

          13       disputed.

          14   A.  Yes, we can, yes.

          15   Q.  "... initially thought gun but read newspapers then

          16       thought it was BlackBerry."

          17           That's what is taken down as a note of apparently

          18       what you said.  So let me take the learned Coroner's

          19       correct route; did you say that?

          20   A.  Where is the newspaper bit?

          21   Q.  On the same page, look at it on screen there it's easier

          22       to read because it's much bigger and not so faded.

          23   A.  "... initially thought gun, shiny, but read

          24       newspapers ... thought it was BlackBerry."

          25   Q.  Exactly.


                                            86
 

 

 


           1   A.  I can't remember that, but I do know I said he had

           2       a BlackBerry.

           3   Q.  Yes.  But did he say you initially thought he had a gun?

           4   A.  No, well, I can't remember that bit, no.  I didn't say

           5       he had a gun, I said he had a BlackBerry.

           6   Q.  No, that you initially thought it was a gun?

           7   A.  I -- no.  I thought it was a phone, a BlackBerry.

           8   Q.  Are we to understand that the BlackBerry was the same

           9       clear as the gun -- as a gun, a sort of black colour or

          10       grey colour; what colour did you think it was?

          11   A.  It was a bit shiny, yes, the phone was, he was clutching

          12       it like that (indicates).

          13   Q.  But how are you so sure from 150 metres that it was

          14       a phone?

          15   A.  20/20 vision.

          16   Q.  I see?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  So even though it was 20/20 vision, you initially

          19       thought it was a gun?

          20   A.  No.  I did not initially think it was a gun.  Like

          21       I said, it was a BlackBerry.

          22   Q.  No, no, what I'm suggesting you said, unless the BBC

          23       individual has written it down completely incorrectly,

          24       and we may have to hear from them, that you initially

          25       thought it was a gun --


                                            87
 

 

 


           1   A.  No.

           2   Q.  -- but you read the newspapers then thought it was

           3       a BlackBerry --

           4   A.  I thought it was a BlackBerry.

           5   Q.  -- and you changed your mind as a result of reading the

           6       newspapers?

           7   A.  No.  I didn't change my mind.  I thought it was

           8       a BlackBerry.  How "gun" got in there, "newspaper" bit

           9       as well, it must have been through a conversation we

          10       spoke about newspapers, but I don't remember speaking

          11       about the newspaper and the gun bit.  I do remember

          12       "BlackBerry".

          13   Q.  You said:

          14           "If he had gun he would have aimed it at them."

          15   A.  Yes, if he had one.  If anybody had a gun and they said,

          16       yeah, he was about to shoot at them --

          17   Q.  You were reconstructing it afterwards and the first

          18       thought was that this was a gun until April 2012.

          19   A.  No, I've always said it was a phone.

          20   Q.  No -- well, with respect you haven't, have you, if this

          21       is right?

          22   A.  I mean, to me, to my knowledge, I've always thought it

          23       was a phone.  So why don't we ask the BBC, [redacted]

          24       or -- sorry, my bad -- one of the reporters, I think

          25       their names will be given to you or something.


                                            88
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Yes, all right.  Can we look at this interview that you

           2       had just a moment or -- that we looked at a moment or

           3       two ago, on 25 November.  If we look at the second page

           4       you said:

           5           "Mark Duggan jumped out ..."

           6           Sorry, it's not up on the screen but everybody has

           7       it so it doesn't need to be.  Right at the top of the

           8       second page:

           9           "Mark Duggan jumped out and he was facing Blackhorse

          10       Road ..."

          11           By which you mean towards Walthamstow, do you?

          12   A.  When he was standing on the pavement -- okay, when he

          13       was standing on the sidewalk, yes.  Initially, it was as

          14       if his body was -- the minicab was standing there and it

          15       was as if he was facing adjacent towards Blackhorse Road

          16       and Ferry Lane, my building, so he was standing, like,

          17       at an angle (indicates).  Then when he turned around to

          18       run off towards Tottenham Hale, that's when the cops

          19       stopped him, he turned back around to run towards

          20       Blackhorse Road.

          21   Q.  As I understood what you said, you couldn't see him when

          22       he was behind the minicab?

          23   A.  I could see his top body, that bit (indicates).

          24   Q.  When you say "that bit", what do you mean "that bit"?

          25   A.  As in his head -- his chest, his head.


                                            89
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Let's have a look at the thing and you can tell us where

           2       you were looking and how you could see it.

           3           No, no, that's the film you take later from

           4       a different window and from a different camera.

           5   A.  You want the original?

           6   Q.  Yes, please.  So can we have it from the start, please.

           7           You tell us, if you would.  Could you see him behind

           8       that minicab?

           9   A.  (Indicates) Standing right there, trying to run that

          10       way, ran back that way and he got shot there.

          11   Q.  The question I'm asking you is not about the running,

          12       just for the moment, but about what you could see when

          13       he was behind the minicab.

          14   A.  His upper body, from there upwards (indicates).

          15   Q.  Just so we have it accurate, just so I have it accurate,

          16       you could see just below his shoulder and the top part

          17       of his head?

          18   A.  (Nods).  Yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Put your hand up to your chest.

          20   A.  (Indicates) That bit, upwards.

          21   MR STERN:  It was a bit higher before, but now you have done

          22       it higher again.  Just roughly, I appreciate it was

          23       difficult to remember exactly.  Anyway, it was around

          24       the top part of his chest that you could see, is that

          25       right --


                                            90
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- and his head obviously, yes?  So you couldn't see his

           3       arms and you couldn't see his hands at that point?

           4   A.  At that point, no.

           5   Q.  Now, just looking at what you say here, if we can, you

           6       say there was another cop right there in front of the

           7       cab and he had another Insignia, then Ms Kemish said: "

           8           "What do you mean by Insignia?"

           9           You say:

          10           "A Vauxhall.  Then he takes out something and it was

          11       me assuming because they were saying 'Get down, put it

          12       down', when I saw him he didn't have anything on him."

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  You have just told us today that he did have a mobile

          15       phone on him?

          16   A.  Yes, when I saw the mobile phone he ran -- when he was

          17       actually -- okay, when he ran towards Tottenham Hale

          18       I could see his full body in between the cars, and when

          19       he ran back to Blackhorse Road, when he had his hand up

          20       like that (indicates), I could see the phone.

          21   Q.  Yes.  But in your interview on the 25 November,

          22       admittedly it was short, but you don't mention anything

          23       about a mobile phone, do you?

          24   A.  I have rectified a couple of things on this interview

          25       just today with my lawyer, which I have actually asked


                                            91
 

 

 


           1       him to put, setting stuff on this new one right here

           2       (indicates).

           3   Q.  Right.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are holding up your copy of the

           5       statement.

           6   A.  Of the new one.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The statement you made today, I see.

           8   MR STERN:  Does that involve saying that:

           9           "I mentioned about a mobile phone."

          10   A.  Pardon?

          11   Q.  Paragraph 17 in your statement.

          12   A.  On what, the old one or the new one?

          13   Q.  I'm talking about this interview on 25 November, you

          14       made no mention of him, Mark Duggan, having a mobile

          15       phone in his hand, did you?

          16   A.  No.

          17   Q.  That's the point I'm making to you, and that's not

          18       corrected by your statement, is it?  Paragraph 17, you

          19       deal with it and there were three small changes.

          20   A.  Paragraph -- (Pause)

          21           Time out.  What statement are we on about right now?

          22       Are we on about the old one or are we on about the new

          23       one?  What should I be looking at, the new one or the

          24       old one?

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Now, we are looking at the new one,


                                            92
 

 

 


           1       the one from today, it's three pages long --

           2   MR STERN:  Paragraph 17.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and goes to 19 paragraphs; do you

           4       have that?  Mr Stern is just asking you about in

           5       paragraph 17, do you mention about mobile phone in the

           6       hand?

           7   A.  (Pause)

           8   MR STERN:  Just have a look at paragraph 17 and read it to

           9       yourself, it'll speed things up because I'm obviously

          10       aware of the time.

          11   A.  (Pause)

          12           Yes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Paragraph 11, you mention -- have

          14       a look at that.

          15   A.  (Pause)

          16           Yes.

          17   MR STERN:  Yes, paragraph 11, you say today, in your

          18       statement today, you say:

          19           "I'm quite sure this object was a mobile telephone

          20       or a BlackBerry."

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  But that's your statement today, isn't it?

          23   A.  It's been my statement the whole time.  This statement

          24       right here was rushed, I came in during the -- in the

          25       evening and we went through it and when we found some


                                            93
 

 

 


           1       mistakes we strived to sort it out and it's nothing.

           2       Probably, I would have actually tried to explain certain

           3       things and they didn't come out right, probably, yeah.

           4   Q.  Like you didn't mention a mobile phone there, did you?

           5   A.  When, on this statement?

           6   Q.  Yes.

           7   A.  No, I did not.

           8   Q.  Can we just look, please, at 33646.  I cannot read that

           9       first word but it may say "pointing", I don't know if it

          10       does or what it says "Pointing", if it does:

          11           "... BlackBerry, shiny, in between car and railing.

          12       Facing Blackhorse Road ..."

          13           It might be "way":

          14           "What going on, expression, he was confused.

          15           "Says phone was in right hand.  On the grass side.

          16       Never reached in pocket.  He spun away."

          17           When you say "spun away", how do you mean "he spun

          18       away", or does --

          19   A.  Relating to the, like, running.  As in -- okay, as in

          20       him running towards Tottenham Hale and trying to run

          21       back towards Blackhorse Road, probably the way I've

          22       expressed myself again wasn't caught on right.

          23   Q.  So that's what you mean by "spun away"?

          24   A.  Yeah.

          25   Q.  Then you say "he never ran away", that's what it says


                                            94
 

 

 


           1       straight after.

           2   A.  (Pause)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think the word at the top left

           4       might not be "pointing" at all, it might be the word

           5       "positive", but we can have a look at it in a moment.

           6   MR STERN:  It might be the word "positive", yes:

           7           "Positive BlackBerry, shiny, in between car and

           8       railing ..."

           9           This is 18 April, just so we are clear about this.

          10       This note is 18 April.  On 12 April we've already been

          11       through that.

          12           Did you see what clothing Mark Duggan was wearing

          13       from where you were?

          14   A.  Yeah, but I can't remember that now.

          15   Q.  Right.  Are you able to say what he was doing with that

          16       clothing, how he was wearing it, whether he had

          17       a t-shirt on or what?

          18   A.  He had a jacket on.

          19   Q.  He had a jacket on, did he?

          20   A.  Yeah.

          21   Q.  What sort of jacket was that?

          22   A.  I think it was a light one, summer one.

          23   Q.  A light, summer one.  Do you remember whether he had his

          24       jacket in a particular way?

          25   A.  I can't remember that, no.


                                            95
 

 

 


           1   Q.  As I understand it, the way you're describing Mark

           2       Duggan, he was directly facing the officer when he was

           3       shot?

           4   A.  I should think, so -- yes, yes, well, yes.

           5   Q.  That's what you have said?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Do you know where the shots actually hit Mark Duggan or

           8       not?

           9   A.  Erm -- I think one in his arm, one in his chest.  It was

          10       all too fast, serious --

          11   Q.  How do you know that?

          12   A.  How do I?

          13   Q.  Yes.

          14   A.  It was right there, you could see it -- you could see

          15       it, looking out the window, it was there, looking on the

          16       camera.  It was there videoing the whole thing.  You

          17       could see them performing CPR on him and you could see

          18       the bullet wounds.

          19   Q.  Well, leaving aside the video, are you saying at the

          20       time that he was shot you could tell that he was shot in

          21       the chest and the arm from 150 metres?

          22   A.  Well, I couldn't tell he was shot in the chest or the

          23       arms but then it hit him and he dropped, yes.

          24   Q.  He had two shots and he dropped to the ground.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            96
 

 

 


           1   Q.  As you say, it happened very fast, didn't it?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  I think the way you described it, as we saw just

           4       a moment or two ago, was a split second?

           5   A.  About, yeah.

           6   Q.  Was he near the railing when he was shot?

           7   A.  It was in between the railing and the car.

           8   Q.  Are you able to say whether he was nearer the railing?

           9   A.  Nearer to the car.

          10   Q.  Nearer to the car --

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  -- and yet you could see him, could you?

          13   A.  Could you bring the picture back up of the car?

          14   Q.  Yes, of course.  Can we have the first one, sorry.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The first one with the cars in the

          16       original position.  Yes, that's it, thank you.

          17   A.  When he was shot he was standing right there

          18       (indicates).

          19   MR STERN:  Standing just beyond the minicab?

          20   A.  In between -- at the rear -- back of the minicab, in

          21       between the railings and the sidewalk, so -- he was in

          22       between the railings and the minicab, so he was on the

          23       sidewalk at the edge -- at the back of the car.

          24   Q.  Right.  Can we just understand this: when you initially

          25       thought about it, you initially thought that what had


                                            97
 

 

 


           1       been said was put it down.

           2   A.  (Nods).

           3   Q.  You have to answer rather than just nod.

           4   A.  I thought you hadn't finished.

           5   Q.  I beg your pardon, I had?

           6   A.  Initially "Put it down" or "Get down".  I should have

           7       mentioned that to the BBC, if they have it on their

           8       notes "Put it down" or "Get down".

           9   Q.  But you mention it had because we can see it.  At the

          10       time you said "Put it down", didn't you?

          11   A.  Yes, and I should have mentioned "Get down" as well.

          12   Q.  Right.  But at the time your initial thought was --

          13       that's what I'm talking to you -- at the time your

          14       initial thought was someone said "Put it down"?

          15   A.  Yes.  But then there was also "Get down" that I should

          16       have said.

          17   Q.  Initially, your thought was that what he had in his hand

          18       was a gun.

          19   A.  No.

          20   Q.  Well, I suggest you can say that because it's there on

          21       the note.

          22   A.  That's what I'm actually disputing right now.  I just

          23       said that about a minute ago.  Where "gun" came from --

          24       I did say a BlackBerry phone but I can't remember saying

          25       a gun, no.


                                            98
 

 

 


           1   Q.  At the time, you did think that that had been thrown,

           2       whatever it was in his hand had been thrown?

           3   A.  (Nods).  Because you did have a lot of stuff flying

           4       about anyway so --

           5   Q.  You thought he had thrown something.

           6   A.  No.  I said something fell out of his hand.  If that's

           7       the note -- that's on the notes.

           8   Q.  Let's have a look at it.  It's 33643 -- in fact it

           9       begins, if we want to get it in context because we have

          10       the whole of the incident -- there's an address there

          11       that obviously we don't want, 33642, right at the

          12       bottom, underneath those two little lines:

          13           "What's going on.  He gets out of car.  Put it

          14       down."

          15           Then over the page:

          16           "Split second, then fire, 2 shots, then phone went

          17       flying."

          18           "Went flying", is the word that's written there; do

          19       you accept that that's what you said?

          20   A.  Probably at the time, yeah.

          21   Q.  Yes?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  That's what I said, when I come back to what you thought

          24       at the time, was that he had something in his

          25       possession -- let's not argue about whether it was


                                            99
 

 

 


           1       a gun, although we've got the note here -- that he

           2       definitely had something in his right hand, yes --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- and that he was -- or at one point sent it flying?

           5   A.  If it's on the notes, yeah.

           6   Q.  Yes.  So when he put his hands up, presumably he didn't

           7       have that in his hand?

           8   A.  No, when he put his hand up he was clutching onto

           9       a phone on the right-hand side.

          10   Q.  So where did you get the idea that it went flying?

          11   A.  I think when he got shot -- right after he got shot.

          12   Q.  Right after he got shot, whatever was in his hand, it

          13       went flying?

          14   A.  Well, it didn't go flying.  At the time I thought it

          15       went flying but thinking about things again and

          16       actually -- well, thinking about things and remembering

          17       certain things, he had -- well, when he dropped,

          18       I didn't see the phone after that because he dropped

          19       with the phone in his hand.

          20   Q.  You cannot say that.  What you mean is he was -- when he

          21       was shot, on both occasions, he had something in his

          22       right hand.

          23   A.  When he was shot he was clutching onto a phone -- on --

          24       yeah, well, okay --

          25   Q.  Let's not argue about the phone, he had something in his


                                           100
 

 

 


           1       right hand.

           2   A.  He had something in his right hand, yeah.

           3   Q.  That then went flying or went out of his hand after he

           4       was shot?

           5   A.  Well, at the time that's what I said, but thinking about

           6       it, I didn't see it fly.  When he dropped, I didn't see

           7       the phone after that.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What is your actual recollection

           9       now?

          10   A.  My actual recollection now is when he dropped I didn't

          11       see the phone after that.  He dropped with the phone in

          12       his hand.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He dropped with the phone in his

          14       hand?

          15   MR STERN:  You obviously appreciate that we have just heard

          16       that you have had lots of discussions with people over

          17       the period of time.

          18   A.  Too much, in fact it was tiring.

          19   Q.  All right.

          20   A.  Mm.

          21   Q.  The position is that you must accept -- at least I'm

          22       suggesting to you that you should accept -- that your

          23       memory was obviously better at the time, in 2011 or

          24       2012?

          25   A.  I wouldn't say that, because everything was too fast.


                                           101
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Well, in April 2012 --

           2   A.  No, are you talking about the actual incident?

           3   Q.  I'm talking about when you went to the BBC in April 2012

           4       and you said, I suggest, that the phone, whatever it

           5       was, went flying.

           6   A.  If that's what I said -- it must be mistaken again.

           7   Q.  Mistaken in accordance with your recollection now,

           8       almost at the end of 2013?

           9   A.  We're at the end of 2013.

          10   Q.  That's what I'm saying.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  In connection with your recollection now, at the end of

          13       2013, you say that what you said to the BBC in

          14       April 2012 was wrong; is that right?

          15   A.  Well, you can say that, yeah.

          16   Q.  I don't know, I'm asking you.

          17   A.  If they say that I said that with the gun issue and

          18       a whole bunch of other stuff, then it must be wrong,

          19       yeah.  I was not the one writing the notes.

          20   Q.  But they were writing notes at the time at which you

          21       were actually speaking, weren't they?

          22   A.  Yes.  So how do I know what they wrote down.

          23   Q.  Do you have any reason to distrust them?

          24   A.  No, I don't have any reason to distrust them at all but

          25       they weren't forthcoming as well.


                                           102
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Not like the police, you don't distrust them?

           2   A.  I don't trust the police, no.

           3   Q.  That's what I'm saying: it's not the BBC, you trust the

           4       BBC, do you?

           5   A.  Yeah, I mean, it's a well renowned, you know,

           6       broadcasting agency and all of that.  A lot of news has

           7       come out of there, so I just thought it was, you know,

           8       fair to actually be -- for them to actually have the

           9       news -- the video, the footage, and the pictures.

          10   Q.  It had something to do with you getting money for it as

          11       well, didn't it?

          12   A.  At the time, I wasn't even thinking about money I wanted

          13       it out there.  But then -- how do I put this?  It wasn't

          14       me who contacted the BBC, it was my girlfriend who

          15       contacted the BBC.  I let all -- every single thing

          16       of -- like her discussing stuff with the BBC,

          17       negotiating price, it was all her.  She's the one who

          18       negotiated everything.  So what we got from it, even

          19       though, you know, we weren't looking to get paid or

          20       anything like that and, you know, it was there, we got

          21       paid so, why not?  I mean, would you get paid and not

          22       accept the money?

          23   Q.  You were the one who, in fact, told her to go to the

          24       BBC, didn't you?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           103
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I thought you just said the opposite.

           2   A.  Pardon?

           3   Q.  I thought you had just said the opposite.  You were the

           4       one who told her to contact the BBC?

           5   A.  I told her to contact the BBC and she had the meeting

           6       with the BBC.  When it came to negotiating prices and

           7       all of that, I wasn't present.  She was the one who was

           8       there sorting out everything.

           9   Q.  So, just so we are clear about this, the point at which

          10       you say he was shot happened very quickly?

          11   A.  Mm.

          12   Q.  You say that at the time at which he went to the ground

          13       he was facing --

          14   A.  Blackhorse Road.

          15   Q.  No, don't worry about Blackhorse Road, he was facing the

          16       man who shot him?

          17   A.  Yes, and the man who shot him had his back towards

          18       Blackhorse Road, yes.

          19   Q.  Yes.  That man who had shot him, could you see him or

          20       were you looking -- you were looking at -- which man

          21       were you looking at?

          22   A.  It was all of them wearing blue jackets.

          23   Q.  Yes.

          24   A.  The one that was standing had his back at Blackhorse

          25       Road, he was aiming a gun, the other one on the road was


                                           104
 

 

 


           1       aiming a gun, the other one on the side was aiming

           2       a gun.  But when he shot -- when he got shot, the way he

           3       dropped, erm -- just -- it wasn't like he got shot in

           4       the back where it would actually make him jolt.  No, he

           5       got shot and he just dropped, he was shot right in the

           6       front (inaudible) --

           7   Q.  So he just went straight down?

           8   A.  He just went straight down.

           9   Q.  Then two police officers went towards him?

          10   A.  Ran towards him, yes, and then the others started

          11       running towards the crowd to get them out of the way,

          12       yeah.

          13   Q.  Now, so far as the officer is concerned, who shot him,

          14       were you looking at him or were you looking at Mark

          15       Duggan at the time the shots were being fired?

          16   A.  I was looking at -- well, I was looking at Mark Duggan

          17       when the shots were getting fired.

          18   Q.  Right.

          19   A.  I was looking at that area, that sidewalk, that bit of

          20       the minicab.  I mean, he was in my vision as well, the

          21       guy that was shooting, yeah.

          22   Q.  Did you see Mark Duggan's hand like this (indicates) at

          23       any point?

          24   A.  No.

          25   Q.  You didn't.  Did you see him on his side at any point?


                                           105
 

 

 


           1   A.  On his side?

           2   Q.  I'm sorry, at a slight angle like that as if he was

           3       down, crouching at any point?

           4   A.  Crouching?

           5   Q.  Yes, did you see that?

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  No.  Did you see him slightly at an angle, let me come

           8       back to that point, at an angle, as like I'm standing?

           9   A.  The first time I saw him when he was standing outside

          10       the cab -- outside the minicab, he was facing Emily

          11       Bowes, Blackhorse Road but in the middle like an angle.

          12       Then he turned around to run towards Tottenham Hale,

          13       turned back around towards Blackhorse Road.  Yes.

          14   Q.  I'm talking about the time that he was shot?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  At the time that he was shot, did you see him at

          17       an angle in any shape or form?

          18   A.  No, just facing Blackhorse Road.

          19   Q.  Just facing, that's your recollection?

          20   A.  That's my recollection, yes.

          21   Q.  When he had his hands up, the police officers went

          22       straight to him?

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  When he had his hands up, he had been shot?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           106
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Then he -- the officer --

           2   A.  Collapsed to the ground.

           3   Q.  Collapsed to the ground and went straight to him.  You

           4       didn't see his jacket being held in a particular way at

           5       all?

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  Let me tell you what the evidence is in relation to

           8       that, the left-hand side of the jacket held over the

           9       right side.

          10   A.  I couldn't see that.

          11   Q.  You didn't see that at all?

          12   A.  No, I couldn't.

          13   Q.  Not in the whole time of your 20/20 vision, you didn't

          14       see that --

          15   A.  Nope, I did not see that.

          16   Q.  -- in the time that you were watching it?

          17   A.  I wasn't focused on his clothes, it was not something

          18       I would focus on his clothes I was focusing on the

          19       event, what was going on.

          20   Q.  Yes, but the left-hand side of his jacket --

          21   A.  It was a serious event, why would I focus on the

          22       person's clothes?

          23   Q.  I understand what you're saying, but the thing is that

          24       the right side of his jacket was pulled, we think -- the

          25       left-hand side of his jacket, I beg your pardon -- over


                                           107
 

 

 


           1       the right side where he was shot up here (indicates).

           2   A.  I can't remember that, I didn't notice that.

           3   Q.  All right, that's fine.  We know that one of the shots

           4       went in the right side and came out the left side at the

           5       back?

           6   A.  Mm.

           7   Q.  Did you see him in an angle that could account for that

           8       in any shape or form?

           9   A.  I can't remember.

          10   Q.  If he had his arms up and he was shot, do we take it

          11       that he couldn't have been shot in the bicep at the time

          12       at which he had his hands up, from your version?

          13   A.  His hands were like that (indicates).

          14   Q.  So the arm was in the way of the bicep?

          15   A.  His arm was right there (indicates).  Where did he get

          16       shot: left, right?

          17   Q.  Don't worry about where he got shot but his arms,

          18       forearms, are in the way of his bicep?

          19   MR STRAW:  I think he should be told where he was shot if he

          20       was being asked where his forearms were --

          21   A.  Please.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I do not think we need to go any

          23       further with that.  You just demonstrate for a final

          24       time and then we can all think in due course where you

          25       feel his arms were when he was shot.


                                           108
 

 

 


           1   A.  Your forearm right there (indicates) but isn't this part

           2       of the arm still showing?

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you just turn round so the jury

           4       can see you do that for that time.

           5   A.  (Indicates).

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           7   MR STERN:  I have just been reminded of something, one other

           8       point, if I may.  Just so we have this clear, could you

           9       go back to, please, the transcript of the phone footage,

          10       33642 and I'll give you the internal numbering in

          11       a minute -- sorry, no, that's the wrong one.  Sorry,

          12       it's 32872.

          13   A.  Page?

          14   Q.  One second, it's 15 of 26.  Just at the top, this is one

          15       of the things you corrected, you said:

          16           "Because they ... they told that ambulance, take

          17       your time.  Looks like they want him dead."

          18   A.  See, the person that was -- I said it from the onset,

          19       yeah, the person who actually translated this did a poor

          20       job.  Not only that, that bit right there, because they

          21       told the ambulance, that was me just assuming, going

          22       that ambulance took 20 minutes to get there, even more,

          23       yeah?  I never said it like that.  I'm like "Where's the

          24       ambulance?" you know?

          25   Q.  Anyway, so the point that I just want to ask you about,


                                           109
 

 

 


           1       you did not hear anybody, a police officer or anyone,

           2       say "take your time" to the ambulance?

           3   A.  I didn't hear that at all, and I've corrected that from

           4       the onset.

           5   Q.  You have, that's exactly the point, you did correct it?

           6   A.  Okay then.

           7   MR STERN:  Just give me one movement, if you wouldn't mind

           8       thank you very much.

           9           Thank you very much.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith, do you have any questions?

          11       No.  Let's just see.

          12   MR BUTT:  One very brief point.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Butt?

          14                       Questions by MR BUTT

          15   MR BUTT:  Witness B, can we agree on this: your perception

          16       of what Mark Duggan had in his hand was in part, or is

          17       now in part based upon what you have read in the

          18       newspaper reports; is that right?

          19   A.  Reading the newspaper reports and all of that, yeah, it

          20       was on the newspaper reports, yeah.

          21   Q.  With your perception of what the item in his hand was is

          22       based in part upon what you read in newspaper reports;

          23       do you agree with that?

          24   A.  No.  Because -- when I saw him clutching what he had in

          25       his hand it was too small to actually be a gun or


                                           110
 

 

 


           1       whatever they are claiming it was, and just instantly,

           2       yeah, it was a phone.  It was definitely a phone.

           3   Q.  If you look at your witness statement, please -- do you

           4       have that -- at paragraph 11 and look at the last line

           5       of paragraph 11.  In this paragraph, this is where

           6       you're explaining what it is that you think he had in

           7       his right hand.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  You say this:

          10           "Secondly, having subsequently read reports of the

          11       incident online, I am aware that Mark Duggan had been

          12       texting people from the taxi."

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  "This underlines my feeling that the object in his right

          15       hand was a mobile telephone or BlackBerry and not

          16       a gun."

          17           Yes?

          18   A.  Right.  So therefore me actually saying it like that, it

          19       was my initial thought from the onset that it was

          20       a phone clutched in his hand and when I read the papers

          21       it just proved it right for me.

          22   Q.  If we could look, please, at CD003647, that's the last

          23       page of the BBC notes, would you agree that this seems

          24       to be similar to what you're saying in the witness

          25       statement:


                                           111
 

 

 


           1           "... initially thought gun."

           2           We hear what you say about that but you go on to

           3       say:

           4           "But read newspapers then thought it was

           5       BlackBerry."

           6           Yes?

           7   A.  Okay.  The gun bit, didn't -- I can't remember saying

           8       the gun bit.  But definitely, yeah, the BlackBerry, yes,

           9       I did say it, and reading the newspapers, it just

          10       confirmed that it was a BlackBerry, that it was a phone.

          11   MR BUTT:  Thank you very much.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Butt.

          13           Mr Glasson?

          14   MR GLASSON:  No.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Anyone else.

          16           Ms Leek?  No.

          17           Right then, Mr Underwood?

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Just a few -- I'm so sorry.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry --

          20   MR BUNTING:  I may have one or two questions.  I do not know

          21       if you want to hear from me, first?

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am quite happy to give you

          23       interested person status, but I think you might need

          24       that to ask any questions, but I'm -- unless anybody has

          25       any thoughts about it, I would have thought that we will


                                           112
 

 

 


           1       welcome you to ask those questions.  I'm looking around

           2       to see if anybody is jumping up and down, it's slightly

           3       unusual.

           4   MR STERN:  I was going to say, it is slightly unusual,

           5       Mr Underwood is counsel to the Inquest, this

           6       gentleman --

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is a barrister --

           8   MR STERN:  Forgive me --

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and he is able to stand up and

          10       ask questions --

          11   MR STERN:  -- I have forgotten his name, I do apologise.

          12       Mr Bunting, thank you.  But he doesn't have

          13       an interested person.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He has not got that, no.

          15   MR STERN:  Therefore, strictly speaking, he does not

          16       actually have any right to ask questions, subject to you

          17       agreeing, obviously.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, what's the problem,

          19       Mr Bunting?  Is there anything that Mr Underwood -- you

          20       just have a seat for a moment.

          21   MR BUNTING:  I'm grateful.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will hear what Mr Underwood has

          23       by way of re-examination.  If you feel there are some

          24       alarming matters that you want to bring to my attention

          25       you can stick it down on a piece of paper and I will see


                                           113
 

 

 


           1       if you ought to ask about it or I'll ask about it.  So

           2       let's see what Mr Underwood wants to say by way of

           3       re-examination.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  To be technical about this, under examination

           5       of witnesses, in rule 21 of the current rules, that:

           6           "Unless the Coroner otherwise determines, a witness

           7       at an Inquest hearing must be examined in the following

           8       order: first by the Coroner, then by any interested

           9       person and, if the witness is represented at the

          10       Inquest, lastly by the witness's representative."

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are.  Marvellous, well

          12       done, Mr Bunting, you've got it right.

          13   MR BUNTING:  In fact my learned friend, Mr Underwood,

          14       helpfully clarified that position yesterday afternoon.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I see, that's why you felt

          16       particularly confident in standing up.

          17   MR BUNTING:  I had not appreciated I would have to ask

          18       particular permission from Mr Stern.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let Mr Underwood do his

          20       re-examination and see if there's anything you want to

          21       ask at the end and then I'm sure we will be illuminated.

          22       Off you go.

          23                Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you.  This BBC note of what may have

          25       been two or what may have been three interviews with


                                           114
 

 

 


           1       you, I think; can we just have a look at it again.

           2       There's the CD33641 page; it's got a number 2 at the top

           3       and at the bottom.  Against "B" it's got:

           4           "To window.  BlackBerry."

           5           Is that a reference to the BlackBerry you were using

           6       or is that a reference to the BlackBerry you say was in

           7       Mr Duggan's hand?  Can you help?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you help us or not?

           9   A.  No.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, fine.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Then there are some words under that.  Then

          12       B:

          13           "Says it was a BlackBerry."

          14           Is that what you were saying to the BBC interviewer?

          15   A.  Mm.

          16   Q.  Then it goes after that:

          17           "'It was execution!'"

          18           Did you say that?

          19   A.  Yes.  I guess.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That appears to be almost in

          21       quotation marks, is it?

          22   A.  Quotation marks ...

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You remember saying that?

          24   A.  On the other page, right?

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, still on 33641, just above the large


                                           115
 

 

 


           1       black box there: "'It was execution!'"

           2   A.  Yeah.

           3   Q.  All right.  Then -- so you said that, did you?

           4   A.  If it's on the notes, probably I --

           5   Q.  Can we go to 33643.  It's my fault because I wasn't

           6       clear about your answer about this.  When Mr Stern asked

           7       you about the top lines:

           8           "Split second, then fire, 2 shots, then phone went

           9       flying."

          10           Did you say that or not?

          11   A.  Erm, I might have said -- at the heat of the moment,

          12       I might have said that, but things were flying around

          13       and all of that, but -- and -- remember -- not

          14       remembering but actually thinking about things, when he

          15       dropped -- he dropped with the phone.

          16   Q.  All right.  Then, if we go to 33646 at page 7 at the

          17       bottom, that top line is:

          18           "Positive, BlackBerry, shiny."

          19           Did you say it was shiny?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  What did you mean by that?  Was it chrome or was it --

          22       glass, glistening or what?

          23   A.  No, it was -- it just had a bit of shade (?) in it like,

          24       you know, just shiny, like a bit shiny like, yeah man,

          25       like when you look at it ... how do I put it?  Erm ...


                                           116
 

 

 


           1       yeah, it did look a bit shiny, you know; it looked

           2       colourful.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You say it's a sunny evening; did

           4       you see the sunlight on it or anything like that on this

           5       object?

           6   A.  I can't remember.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  All right.  Then if we look at the final page

           8       of this, CD33647, the second line's got an asterisk

           9       against it:

          10           "Phone always in hand."

          11           Did you say that Mr Duggan always had the phone in

          12       his hand?

          13   A.  I think so, yeah.  I mean, if it's on the notes, yeah.

          14   Q.  You've been asked a number of questions today about your

          15       recollection and about various accounts you've given.

          16   A.  Mm.

          17   Q.  Let me just ask you what your recollection now is about

          18       things specifically, now you have had a chance to look

          19       at these earlier notes and things.

          20           Could Mr Duggan have had a gun in his hand, the sort

          21       of gun you have seen today?

          22   A.  No.  I know what I saw: no.

          23   Q.  Could he have had his hands down when he was shot?

          24   A.  No.

          25   Q.  Could whatever he had in his hand have gone flying over


                                           117
 

 

 


           1       the railings?

           2   A.  (Pause).

           3           No.  Because when he dropped, I just didn't see the

           4       phone anymore.  I mean, at the time probably I said,

           5       "Yes, something went flying", but ... erm, not thinking

           6       but just -- yeah, thinking about things a lot more (?).

           7       When he fell, I didn't see the phone after that.

           8   Q.  Those things I have just asked you about that you are

           9       now clear about, is it possible that you've been

          10       affected by talking to people, reading the newspapers,

          11       seeing television reports, that sort of thing?

          12   A.  I mean, I followed it from day one, you know, it's

          13       nothing -- I mean, every since it happened, I had the

          14       video and all of that and I just wanted to know what was

          15       going on because it was -- you know, it happened right

          16       outside my door step and, yeah, I just felt I needed to

          17       know what was going on.  So I followed the story.

          18   Q.  I am not criticising that.  I am just asking you whether

          19       you could have been affected in your memory by what you

          20       have seen and heard since?

          21   A.  I don't -- no, I do not think so, no.

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  That's all I ask.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Bunting, anything finally you

          24       want to ask?

          25                     Questions by MR BUNTING


                                           118
 

 

 


           1   MR BUNTING:  I'm very grateful, sir, and Mr Underwood has in

           2       fact asked many of the questions I wanted to ask.  But

           3       if I could just -- one or two final points, just to be

           4       very clear, as my learned friend Mr Thomas would say.

           5           First of all, you have given a number of versions of

           6       events in these proceedings, witness B.  The first

           7       version of events you were asked questions about by my

           8       learned friend Mr Stern was the transcript of your

           9       conversation with Witness A at the time you were

          10       filming.

          11   A.  Mm.

          12   Q.  Could you just assist the jury with what state of mind

          13       you were in at that stage?  How did you feel?

          14   A.  I was angry.  Yeah, I was angry, I was shocked, I was

          15       distressed; the whole lot.

          16   Q.  You were asked questions in particular about page 20 of

          17       26, which is CD032877.  I'm very grateful.

          18           In particular, it was put to you that you didn't say

          19       in that section "get down" as opposed to "put it down".

          20   A.  What page are we on, sorry?

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's on the screen there.

          22   MR BUNTING:  Firstly, to be clear, when you were making that

          23       comment, you weren't setting out an entire witness

          24       statement that you intended to be picked apart in

          25       a court of law, were you?


                                           119
 

 

 


           1   A.  No.

           2   Q.  You were giving your immediate impressions and the state

           3       of mind that you have just described yourself in.

           4   A.  Exactly.

           5   Q.  Did you at any stage tell Witness A that, in fact, the

           6       words that had been used were "Get down" as well as "Put

           7       it down"?

           8   A.  Yeah, I did say that to Witness A.

           9   Q.  If it's not included in the transcript that doesn't mean

          10       you didn't hear it said, or does it?

          11   A.  True.

          12   Q.  I'm grateful.  The next version of events that you were

          13       asked questions about was the interview on 25 November;

          14       that was last week?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  I think you said that you had felt that that was rushed?

          17   A.  Yeah.

          18   Q.  You have given evidence that its contents are not

          19       entirely accurate?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  We can see from that interview that -- can I just be

          22       clear: have you ever signed that statement as being true

          23       to the best of your knowledge and belief?

          24   A.  No.

          25   Q.  The reason you haven't seen it is because you don't


                                           120
 

 

 


           1       consider it to be fully accurate?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  We can see the questions that you were asked, as well as

           4       your answers, and it seems that -- you can correct me if

           5       I am wrong -- that you were never at any stage asked if

           6       there was a phone in his hand, a gun in his hand or

           7       indeed anything in his hand during that interview; is

           8       that correct?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  If you had been asked at that interview what he had had

          11       in his hand, what would you have said?

          12   A.  I would have said he had a phone, he was clutching onto

          13       a phone.

          14   Q.  I'm grateful.  Then the final version of events you were

          15       asked questions about is -- sorry, this is the second

          16       last -- is the BBC statement.  We can see because

          17       Mr Underwood has just taken you through it --

          18   A.  Mm-hmm.

          19   Q.  -- that on a number of occasions in there you refer to

          20       a BlackBerry or a phone?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  But it's also clear that this isn't in your words, no?

          23   A.  No, I wasn't the one writing it down.

          24   Q.  It doesn't contain your full version of events?

          25   A.  No.


                                           121
 

 

 


           1   Q.  But it does -- where you do mention a telephone, you

           2       say, I think at page 7, CD033646; can you see at the top

           3       of the page, it says:

           4           "Positive, BlackBerry ..."

           5           Your name "B" is written above that?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Was "positive" your word?

           8   A.  Erm -- possibly, yeah.

           9   Q.  So what would you have meant by that if you had used the

          10       word "Positive, BlackBerry".

          11   A.  That I was definitely sure that it was a BlackBerry.

          12   Q.  I'm grateful.  The final page, the next page of the BBC

          13       transcript, can you see at the top of that page the very

          14       first line appears to be:

          15           "Told B about IPCC."

          16           We can presume because it's talking about you that

          17       that's not your words; you didn't tell yourself about

          18       the IPCC, did you?

          19   A.  No.

          20   Q.  So it seems that that page may not be even about you, it

          21       may be something that someone else has said?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  I'm grateful.  Finally, page 2, page CD033641.  I think

          24       Mr Underwood and the learned Coroner have just brought

          25       your attention to this but just to go through it very


                                           122
 

 

 


           1       carefully "B", and it says:

           2           "To window, BlackBerry."

           3           Can you see that, Witness B, about a third of the

           4       way down the page?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Then it comes back and it said:

           7           "Said 'What's up?' B says it was a BlackBerry."

           8           Can you recall giving that statement to the BBC: "

           9   A.  I know I said it was a BlackBerry.

          10   Q.  So you told the BBC it was a BlackBerry, essentially,

          11       and you told them you were positive about that?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Further down that page, this is the final question, it

          14       seems to be in quotation marks and exclamation:

          15           "It was execution."

          16           What did you mean by that?

          17   A.  You don't see someone with their hands up and you shoot

          18       them and it doesn't take the ambulance 20 minutes just

          19       to come, even 20-something -- even more, just to get

          20       there, you know.  So I just think it's just -- this is

          21       what I assume, yeah, man.

          22   Q.  You assumed that the death of Mr Duggan was

          23       an execution?

          24   A.  Yeah.

          25   MR BUNTING:  Thank you, no further questions.


                                           123
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Anymore re-examination after

           2       that?

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Then Witness B that does

           5       conclude your evidence.  That is it.  You do not need to

           6       come back anymore.  So can I thank you for assisting the

           7       jury and for taking that film, without which certainly

           8       this Inquest -- we are much indebted for having that,

           9       whatever else may be said.  So thank you very much,

          10       indeed.

          11   A.  Thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So what I'll do is I'll ask

          13       Witness B then to leave us firstly, so if you would like

          14       to go, the cameras are off so you are able to leave us.

          15                      (The witness withdrew)

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood, we're almost

          17       completing evidence, are we not?

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  We are very close.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What I think is the proposal is that

          20       we should sit tomorrow afternoon at 2 o'clock.  Are we

          21       all right for that?

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Please.  Assuming that V59, who is the last

          23       witness, is available -- I am not hearing anything to

          24       the contrary, that's kind -- then yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's what we'll do then, members


                                           124
 

 


           1       of the jury.  Thank you very much for your attention

           2       today.  We won't be requiring you tomorrow morning but

           3       if you can be here for 2 o'clock start then hopefully

           4       we'll conclude the evidence tomorrow afternoon.  All

           5       right, then we're making some real progress, so thank

           6       you very much.  If you would like to leave us then,

           7       thank you.

                                           125
 

 


           4   (4.28 pm)

           5       (The Inquest adjourned until 2.00 pm on Wednesday,

           6                         4 December 2013)

           7             

                                           127

 


           1                              INDEX

           2                                                       PAGE

           3   W39 (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD) .................2

           4   V72 (statements read by ..............................3
                         MR UNDERWOOD)
           5
               DETECTIVE INSPECTOR BRIAN LUCAS .....................10
           6             (statement read by
                         MR UNDERWOOD)
           7
               WITNESS B (sworn) ...................................17
           8
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................18
           9
                   Questions by MR STRAW ...........................31
          10
                   Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................48
          11
                   Questions by MR STERN ...........................61
          12
               WITNESS A (affirmed) ................................72
          13
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................72
          14
                   Questions by MR STERN ...........................74
          15
               WITNESS B (continued) ...............................79
          16
                   Questions by MR STERN (continued) ...............79
          17
                   Questions by MR BUTT ...........................110
          18
                   Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ..............114
          19
                   Questions by MR BUNTING ........................118
          20

         
                                           128