Transcript of the Hearing 23 October 2013

 

           1                                     Wednesday, 23 October 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will have the cameras off then

           4       and the jury in, please.

           5                  (In the presence of the jury)

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood, who's to be the first

           7       witness today?

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  W70, please, sir.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could we have the witness W70 in,

          10       please?

          11                          W70 (affirmed)

          12                   (The witness was anonymised)

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you would

          14       like to come forward and have a seat, please.  I will

          15       ask Mr Underwood to ask you some questions.

          16                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Officer.

          18   A.  Good morning.

          19   Q.  My name's Underwood and I'm counsel to the Inquest and

          20       I will start the questioning going.

          21           First of all, would you have a look at the sheet of

          22       paper that has just been put in front of you, please.

          23       You have just said you are W70, can you have a look at

          24       the list there to see whether your name is against that?

          25   A.  It is and it's correct.


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           1   Q.  Thank you very much.  As you know, I am going to be

           2       asking you questions about 4 August 2011.  Can I ask,

           3       first of all, how long you'd been in the police force at

           4       that stage?

           5   A.  Just over seven years.

           6   Q.  How long had you been in CO19?

           7   A.  I started on 18 April so I had only -- four or five

           8       months, I believe, at that time.

           9   Q.  Four or five months with CO19 in general or just the

          10       TSTs?

          11   A.  Just the TSTs.

          12   Q.  Had you been in CO19 before?

          13   A.  I had been on the armed response vehicles but it was

          14       actually with a different department, with the

          15       Diplomatic Protection Group.

          16   Q.  I think on 4 August you were posted as the rear seat

          17       passenger in the Charlie car, were you not?

          18   A.  I was, yes.

          19   Q.  Had you been involved on 3 August?

          20   A.  I wasn't, sir, no.  I wasn't on that operation.

          21   Q.  Were you given any sort of briefing to catch you up?

          22   A.  I was, sir.  I was given like a brief precis of what the

          23       circumstances were and I was given the form, the FA1,

          24       which is basically the -- contains all the information

          25       for the Senior Firearms Commander or the person


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           1       authorising the operation.

           2   Q.  Right.  What guns did you draw on the 4th?

           3   A.  My Glock 17, which is my sidearm pistol, my MP5, which

           4       is a carbine, and also a Benelli M3 shotgun, which in

           5       this case was for deflating tyres on any vehicle.

           6   Q.  What's what we keep calling a Hatton?

           7   A.  It is, yes, a Hatton gun, yes, sorry.

           8   Q.  Have you been reading any of the transcripts of your

           9       fellow officers?

          10   A.  I have, yes.

          11   Q.  You will know that we have heard evidence about the way

          12       everybody travelled from Leman Street to Quicksilver and

          13       had a short brief there and then went on.

          14   A.  I did, yes.

          15   Q.  So is there anything about what you have read about that

          16       that you disagree?

          17   A.  No, sir, not at all.

          18   Q.  Let's move on then to the situation when you were on the

          19       road out of Quicksilver.  Did you become aware that

          20       intelligence was coming in to tell you what the

          21       developing situation was?

          22   A.  Yes, I believe our team leader updated us on the radio

          23       that there was intelligence coming in.

          24   Q.  R68 and V53 were in your car, weren't they?

          25   A.  They were, yes.


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           1   Q.  What was the discussion about what was likely to happen?

           2   A.  If I remember rightly, V53 had been on many Dibris

           3       before.  Personally I hadn't been on any operations --

           4       sorry, any Dibri operations -- previously, so he was

           5       just giving a brief precis of what the subjects of that

           6       operation were like, what they might try and do around

           7       the stop.

           8   Q.  Did that impress you as being particularly dangerous?

           9   A.  Well, sir, obviously all of these stops have the same

          10       kind of outlying dangers, ie people will try and escape,

          11       drive -- whether that be on vehicle or foot, or they may

          12       try and use violence against us.  So not particularly

          13       dangerous, no, but obviously you do have in the back of

          14       your mind that a particular person may try a particular

          15       route to avoid being arrested.

          16   Q.  Can you tell us roughly how many hard stops you had been

          17       involved in by this stage?

          18   A.  Actual vehicle stops?

          19   Q.  Yes.

          20   A.  This was the first hard or enforced vehicle stop that

          21       I had ever been involved in.

          22   Q.  Forgive me if I call it a "hard stop" but it's a phrase

          23       we have been using.

          24   A.  No, I understand.

          25   Q.  I am well aware the formal is "enforced" or


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           1       "non-compliant"; is that right?

           2   A.  That's right, yes.

           3   Q.  What did you understand to be the minicab driver's

           4       position?  Did you understand him to be a danger or

           5       an innocent person or what?

           6   A.  Well sir, I think it's important to remember that

           7       everyone who is in that vehicle is an unknown risk to

           8       ourselves, ie we can't be sure about people's

           9       involvement, and indeed, since this operation, I've been

          10       involved in operations where taxi drivers have been

          11       hostile.

          12   Q.  What did you think at the time?

          13   A.  But at the time you do have in your mind that

          14       potentially that taxi driver is going to be an innocent

          15       person and therefore you have to behave accordingly.

          16   Q.  When did you first catch sight of the minicab?

          17   A.  I believe it was Blackhorse Road.

          18   Q.  What was your understanding about how the stop would

          19       happen in terms of you getting out?  Would you get out

          20       as soon as you thought it was safe or was there some

          21       signal for you to get out or what?

          22   A.  Generally the driver of your vehicle will give a shout

          23       of "Doors, doors" and that indicates that he's not going

          24       to drive off and obviously drag you along or anything

          25       like that, and that indicates to you that it's safe to


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           1       get out.

           2   Q.  There's a risk that your subsequent experience may be

           3       influencing your answers, I think.  What was your

           4       understanding when you were in the car in Blackhorse

           5       Road about what would happen in terms of you getting

           6       out?

           7   A.  Sorry, sir, in terms of my --

           8   Q.  What was your understanding when you were in the Charlie

           9       car, was it that you would wait for the car to stop or

          10       that there would be a signal?

          11   A.  It will always be after the subject vehicle is stopped,

          12       but you will always wait for your driver to tell you

          13       that it's safe to depart.  Is that --

          14   Q.  That was your understanding at the time, was it?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  The reason I'm asking you to distinguish between what

          17       you think now and what you thought then is that you had

          18       never done a stop like this before; is that fair?

          19   A.  Obviously we trained for that but it was just outlined

          20       by V53, I think.

          21   Q.  All right.  Did you become aware that amber and then red

          22       had been called?

          23   A.  I did, yes.

          24   Q.  When state red was called, what was your state of

          25       readiness in terms of your clothing and your armament?


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           1   A.  Well, at state red obviously you are expecting the

           2       strike to be called imminently, so you will make sure --

           3       final check that your weapons are ready to go and that

           4       your plot cap, ie your baseball cap, is at hand.  You'll

           5       be wearing your gloves, you'll be making sure that

           6       you've got everything to hand that you need to deploy.

           7   Q.  When strike was called, what sort of view did you have

           8       of the minicab?

           9   A.  I had a limited view because obviously I was at the back

          10       of the convoy and in the rear seat of the Charlie

          11       vehicle.  So I would catch glimpses of it, as it were,

          12       through the headrest of the Charlie vehicle.  You know,

          13       you obviously try not to give the game away by being too

          14       obvious but I was peering round through the front

          15       windscreen.

          16   Q.  Did you see the Alpha and Bravo car go out?

          17   A.  I did, yes.  Alpha pulled out and overtook the minicab

          18       and then started to pinch it, which is basically just

          19       cut off its escape to the front, Bravo followed Alpha

          20       out and basically it will pull alongside and provide

          21       firearms cover into the vehicle and pull up next to it,

          22       as it draws to a stop.

          23   Q.  Did you hear any sirens?

          24   A.  There were sirens, yes, towards the end of the stop.

          25   Q.  Could you work out which car they were coming from?


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           1   A.  I couldn't, no, sir.

           2   Q.  Tell us then what happened when your car stopped?

           3   A.  So basically the "Doors, doors" was called by the

           4       driver, I've opened my door and, as I've done so, I have

           5       immediately started to look at the taxi cab to see if it

           6       was making any signs that it would try and drive out or

           7       move off or was being in any way uncompliant.  I could

           8       see that the taxi had come to a complete stop and didn't

           9       show any signs, I couldn't hear any engine revving or

          10       anything.

          11   Q.  Can we pause there.  There's a map, our CE272; can you

          12       have a look at that.  It will come up on the screen, or

          13       if you have a hard copy whichever you prefer.  Is this

          14       the map you drew?

          15   A.  It is, yes.

          16   Q.  Firstly, did you get out of the nearside or offside rear

          17       door?

          18   A.  The nearside.

          19   Q.  So straight onto the pavement or did you go into the

          20       road?

          21   A.  I can't recall whether I stepped straight onto --

          22       obviously there is a gap there, I don't know whether

          23       I stepped straight.

          24   Q.  Having got out, the minicab had come to a halt, then

          25       what did you see?


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           1   A.  As I've been looking down the kerb line, as it were,

           2       I've seen the sliding door on the nearside of the taxi

           3       cab was slid open --

           4   Q.  Did you say you saw it slide open or it had been slid

           5       open?

           6   A.  It was already slid open as I was looking down.

           7   Q.  Right.

           8   A.  Mr Duggan, his side profile, appeared from that doorway.

           9   Q.  Was he on the ground or was he on the threshold of the

          10       minicab, so high up, or what?

          11   A.  As I saw him, he kind of used his shoulder to pivot

          12       round the doorway, as it were, so the door slid back,

          13       he's actually pivoted with his left shoulder around that

          14       doorway and started to face back towards myself and V53.

          15   Q.  Right.  So still with his feet in the minicab, do you

          16       think?

          17   A.  To be honest with you, sir, I don't recall where his

          18       feet were but I think he was -- as he's come out I was

          19       very aware that he was low on his legs so at some point

          20       obviously he has come out and put his feet on the

          21       ground, I am not sure exactly which point that is.

          22   Q.  Did you see where he was looking?

          23   A.  No, sir, I don't recall which way he was looking.

          24   Q.  Did you see his hands at all?

          25   A.  I saw his -- I'm not sure if I saw his left hand holding


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           1       the left lower lapel of his jacket or whether it was

           2       actually in his pocket, if that makes sense.  So

           3       I couldn't tell whether it was -- but it was certainly

           4       in control of this sort of lower part of his jacket

           5       (indicates).

           6   Q.  So one way or the other his left hand was grabbing

           7       a part of his jacket?

           8   A.  Yes, it was either grabbing hold of it or it was -- his

           9       hand was in his pocket but, either way, he had control

          10       of the left-hand lapel.

          11   Q.  His right hand?

          12   A.  His right hand I couldn't see because his right hand was

          13       crossed inside his jacket like this (indicates).

          14   Q.  For the benefit of people upstairs, your arms are across

          15       your belly, really?

          16   A.  Yes, across his waistband towards the left-hand side of

          17       his waistband.

          18   Q.  What happened then?

          19   A.  As he's turned to face us, he's rolled -- he's set off

          20       in a very sort of determined sprint like manner and as

          21       he's turned towards to face me I've seen obviously the

          22       jacket has come round and he's pulled it slightly and

          23       then (indicates) just literally as he's taken one or two

          24       steps I've seen him just move his arm out like that and

          25       in his hand was a self-loading pistol.


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           1   Q.  What you're describing is that his right elbow moved --

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Perhaps you might stand up because

           3       I think what he's showing might not be actually visible

           4       to the jury.  So do that again.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  So you were describing his right elbow

           6       moving --

           7   A.  Shall I undo my jacket and show?

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  Please do.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, if it makes it easier.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Forgive me for describing this, Officer,

          11       because people upstairs cannot see you.

          12   A.  No, that's quite all right.

          13   Q.  So his jacket is open --

          14   A.  So he's got this all inside --

          15   Q.  -- he has grasped the lower left part in his left hand,

          16       yes?

          17   A.  -- this is across there and he's kind of in this stooped

          18       position with his shoulders rounded forward (indicates).

          19       He's very low on his legs in a kind of strong stance and

          20       his shoulder is kind of against the pillar of the door,

          21       if you like.

          22   Q.  So he was still very close to the doorway of the

          23       minicab?

          24   A.  Yes.  That's the side profile, so as the jury see me

          25       there, that's how he was kind of in this position and as


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           1       he's turned he's set off in a very determined way and

           2       then obviously, as this has come round, I've managed to

           3       see this and he's just moved this out here to his

           4       abdomen.

           5   Q.  His right elbow moves out away from his side and his

           6       right hand emerges from the jacket, yes?

           7   A.  That's correct, yes.

           8   Q.  You say you saw a self-loading pistol in his hand?

           9   A.  I did, yes.

          10   Q.  In a sock?

          11   A.  I could not tell any detail of the weapon, I just saw

          12       the shape of a self-loading pistol.

          13   Q.  So a sort of silhouette of a self-loading pistol, would

          14       that be true?

          15   A.  Yes, I guess that's probably --

          16   Q.  What happened then?

          17   A.  Sorry, excuse me for a second.  (Pause)

          18           Literally I heard, as far as I could tell almost

          19       instantaneously, two shots, and from there I can't

          20       really recall what happened to Mr Duggan's hands but

          21       I certainly perceived that he started to sink low on his

          22       legs, so kind of collapsed down on towards his knees.

          23   Q.  How far had he got from the doorway?

          24   A.  Initially, when he --

          25   Q.  When the shots were fired.


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           1   A.  To my perception, he'd only moved maybe a couple of

           2       strides.

           3   Q.  Okay.  Was V53 in your eyeline at all?

           4   A.  He was very much in my periphery, but he was ahead of me

           5       and to the left.

           6   Q.  Would it be fair to say you were concentrating on

           7       Mr Duggan --

           8   A.  Absolutely, I was.

           9   Q.  -- and, in particular, concentrating on the gun?

          10   A.  Well, obviously, yes, it did cause me to -- you know,

          11       quite a lot of alarm.  So, yes, I definitely tried to

          12       focus as much as I could.

          13   Q.  Did you have time to react at all?

          14   A.  I didn't, no.  I mean, at the time -- it is probably

          15       best to explain that because the vehicle had come to

          16       a complete stop, I then slung my Hatton gun, because

          17       I wouldn't require it to deflate the tyres, and went to

          18       reach for my sidearm to use that to cover obviously

          19       towards the vehicle.

          20           Obviously, in that period of time between me doing

          21       that, that is when Mr Duggan emerged from the side of

          22       the cab, so I didn't actually have a weapon pointing

          23       towards the cab at the time.

          24   Q.  Between the time of you seeing the gun emerge from the

          25       jacket and the shots going off, did you have time to do


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           1       anything?

           2   A.  No, sir, not at all.

           3   Q.  Were the shots a double tap or was there a gap?

           4   A.  No, a pair of shots, if you like, so quite a distinct

           5       separation between them.

           6   Q.  What did you see Mr Duggan do by way of reaction to

           7       these shots?

           8   A.  He basically sunk low on legs and started to collapse

           9       down towards the ground and then he's come forward like

          10       doubled over, and then eventually he's come down to his

          11       knees, basically, and at that point I'm aware that his

          12       arms are up to his chest --

          13   Q.  Both hands.  You are demonstrating --

          14   A.  I cannot be sure exactly which way they were facing but

          15       he was definitely up here with his arms and his hands.

          16   Q.  Again, forgive me, the reason I am repeating this is so

          17       that people who can't see upstairs are getting an idea

          18       of what you are demonstrating.  You are bringing both

          19       hands up to just -- about the collar bone; is that

          20       right?

          21   A.  Correct, yes.

          22   Q.  Empty?

          23   A.  Yes, they were empty, yes.

          24   Q.  What happened to the gun?

          25   A.  I honestly don't know, sir.


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           1   Q.  Did you grab him by the wrists?

           2   A.  I did.  As he kind of -- he sat down onto his own feet,

           3       if that makes sense, and was certainly collapsing

           4       anyway.  As he's kind of sat back on his feet I've

           5       grabbed his wrists and essentially just lowed him onto

           6       his back.  He would have done that anyway but I just had

           7       hold of his arms, as it were.

           8   Q.  What did you think had happened?

           9   A.  I thought Mr Duggan had been shot.

          10   Q.  By V53 or by somebody else?

          11   A.  Yes.  Obviously the gun fire was so close to my head he

          12       was the only person it could have come from.

          13   Q.  What was your immediate concern once you'd put Mr Duggan

          14       down onto the ground?

          15   A.  Immediately I wanted to find out where that pistol had

          16       gone, where the gun had gone, because obviously it's

          17       outstanding, it could have been underneath him or still

          18       somewhere on his person that he could have accessed it.

          19       So initially we just wanted to make sure that he was

          20       secure and that the gun was secure.

          21   Q.  Did you at any stage become aware that a gun was found

          22       at the scene?

          23   A.  Yes, quite a bit later on, I was carrying out first aid

          24       and someone came round and told us that there was

          25       a firearm had been found nearby on some grass.


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           1   Q.  I've taken you out of sequence.  So having put Mr Duggan

           2       to the ground, you say you helped with first aid; is

           3       that right?

           4   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           5   Q.  What did you do?

           6   A.  Initially I carried out what is known as a primary

           7       survey, looking for the actual wounds, and then started

           8       to cut his clothes off so that we could get down to skin

           9       level and look for further injuries, and then assisted

          10       with getting the oxygen ready for him.

          11   Q.  V53 came along at some point, did he, to help with that?

          12   A.  Yes, very shortly after myself and I believe it was V48

          13       had started kind of primary survey and had started to go

          14       through "Dr's ABC", which I'm sure you have heard

          15       before.  It's the mnemonic to help us through the

          16       sequence for first aid.  He came very shortly after that

          17       and took over because he's a more highly trained medic.

          18   Q.  We know that paramedics arrived in due course and then

          19       the air ambulance; were you aware of those?

          20   A.  Yes, I was, yes.

          21   Q.  In due course you went back to go through the

          22       post-incident procedure, did you?

          23   A.  We did, yes.

          24   Q.  Can I show you some photographs and get you to comment

          25       on them?  If we look first of all at CD29922.  We will


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           1       zoom on it a bit.

           2           What this is is a photograph of a mannequin with

           3       a replica of the jacket, maybe a different colour, but

           4       take it from us it's the same type of jacket.

           5   A.  Okay.

           6   Q.  What's been done is that bullet holes in the mannequin

           7       are those representing the wound tracks on Mr Duggan and

           8       those red lines you see are trajectory rods passing

           9       through the mannequin; do you understand?

          10   A.  I do, yes.

          11   Q.  We know that there were essentially two wounds.  Were

          12       you aware while you were doing first aid there were

          13       essentially two wounds to Mr Duggan?

          14   A.  I was, yes.

          15   Q.  One of them in the chest and one, the right bicep,

          16       inside the bicep, and associated with a sort of slap on

          17       the chest?

          18   A.  Yes, obviously, whilst we were doing first aid we had to

          19       assume that the secondary chest wound, if you like,

          20       which was to the side here, we still treated that as if

          21       it might have been an exit wound, essentially, but it

          22       was kind of apparent at the time that that was probably

          23       because of the way it married up with the wound to his

          24       bicep, that it was probably just going to be the same

          25       wound.


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           1   Q.  Right.  The trajectory rod which has "Y" marked on it is

           2       the one associated with that bicep and superficial chest

           3       wound; do you follow?

           4   A.  Yes, I do, yes.

           5   Q.  The one that has "X" marked on it is the chest wound

           6       that goes in the upper chest and comes out towards the

           7       lower back; do you see?

           8   A.  Yes, I do.

           9   Q.  Can you help the jury in any way with how the two shots

          10       could have gone in at some different trajectories?

          11   A.  (Pause)

          12           Certainly initially, from my point of view, as he's

          13       exited the minicab, he was in a stooped position, ie he

          14       was lent forward.  As I said, he was low on his legs and

          15       he certainly set off in a very determined manner, so

          16       that's the only thing I can think, that he was actually

          17       lent forward.

          18   Q.  Does it come to this, that you think it's a possibility

          19       that he went upright between the two shots?

          20   A.  I certainly -- I didn't see between the two shots but --

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  What I'm asking you really is whether there

          22       is anything you saw.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What didn't you see between the two

          24       shots?

          25   A.  I didn't see the position of his body change between the


                                            18
 

 

 


           1       two shots.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let's move on then to the jacket itself if we

           3       may.  If we look at CD372.  Again, I'm afraid this is

           4       a distressing photograph.

           5           Now, you may have seen the jacket in a less damaged

           6       state than this initially, we don't know yet, but let's

           7       look at these.  What you can see on the right-hand side

           8       there is three annotations with arrows going towards

           9       what are in fact bullet holes in the jacket.  The top

          10       one is the hole associated with that bicep and the

          11       superficial chest wound.

          12           Then you have two holes, the lower left part of the

          13       jacket, associated with the upper chest wound; do you

          14       follow?

          15   A.  I do, yes.

          16   Q.  If we look now, before I ask you a question, at CD30532.

          17       What we can see again is a replication of that.  Here

          18       what you have is you can see the tip of the trajectory

          19       rod there, top right-hand chest, associated with two

          20       bullet holes replicated on the replica jacket; do you

          21       see?

          22   A.  I do, yes.

          23   Q.  What the experts are likely to be suggesting is that the

          24       chest wound was associated with the two holes in the

          25       lower left part of the jacket, meaning the lower left


                                            19
 

 

 


           1       part of the jacket must have been held right up to the

           2       top right of the chest; do you follow?

           3   A.  I follow, yes.

           4   Q.  Is there anything you saw which could explain that?

           5   A.  Only, as I said, so that he had control of that part of

           6       his jacket.  I didn't see him move it, anything other

           7       than really opening his jacket slightly though.

           8   Q.  Very well.  Can we have a look, please, now at CD25.  Is

           9       this your evidence and actions book you made up that

          10       evening, that night?

          11   A.  It is, yes.

          12   Q.  If we look at CD28, we can see that you wrote that the

          13       notes started at 22.58 and finished at 23.55; were those

          14       accurate?

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  If we look over the page, please, at CD29, you say:

          17           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty in plain

          18       clothes as an authorised firearms officer attached

          19       to ..."

          20           Is that TST?

          21   A.  I believe it will be, yes.

          22   Q.  "We paraded at 1600 hours at Leman Street Police

          23       Station.  I was posted as rear seat passenger in Charlie

          24       in company with R68 who was driving and V53 who was

          25       front seat passenger.  I was deployed with my personal


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       issue Glock 17 SLP [then you give the number], personal

           2       issue MP5 [you give the number] both in condition 1, and

           3       Hatton gun [you give the number of that].  At

           4       approximately 1813 hours we were taxed to stop

           5       a vehicle, index R343 KPE, as part after ongoing

           6       operation.  That stop took place on Ferry Lane N17 close

           7       to Tottenham Hale station.  I deployed from the vehicle

           8       and during the course of this stop a number of rounds

           9       were discharged and as a result one subject was hit and

          10       one police officer.  First aid was given to both parties

          11       by police.  I remained at scene until returning to

          12       Leman Street Police Station to take part in PIP

          13       procedure."

          14           Then there is a date stamp.  Is that an accurate

          15       reading of your notes?

          16   A.  It is, yes, sir.

          17   Q.  Quite a lot of detail, you would accept, would you, of

          18       the Glock, MP5 and Hatton gun numbers and place and time

          19       of the stop?  No mention of you seeing a gun, is there?

          20   A.  No, sir.  Well, on the evening, obviously, I had legal

          21       advice, and the legal advice drew my attention to the

          22       Manual of Guidance and that was basically to say that if

          23       I had used force that I should say so and do a more

          24       detailed account but because I hadn't used force on the

          25       evening, I should do a very brief outline of -- like


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       a duty statement and I should wait the 48 hours before

           2       carrying out my detailed statement.

           3   Q.  In case anybody wonders why you put so much detail in

           4       about, for example, the serial numbers of the guns, the

           5       time and place of the stop and a complete omission about

           6       seeing a gun, can you explain why there's so much detail

           7       in one part and no detail in another?

           8   A.  The reason I put those details in there would be to

           9       initially assist the DPS and the IPCC, just so they know

          10       which weapons were mine, where I was sat and who I was

          11       crewed up with.

          12   Q.  You say you got legal advice, and of course we are not

          13       going to ask you about that, but did you see

          14       a Federation rep?

          15   A.  I did, yes, at some point.

          16   Q.  Did you talk to anybody else of the TST team about what

          17       had happened?

          18   A.  No, not on the -- are you talking about on the evening?

          19   Q.  Yes, before you made your notes?

          20   A.  No, not on the evening, no.

          21   Q.  So you knew W42 had been shot?

          22   A.  Yes, that was apparent at the scene.

          23   Q.  Did you know how?

          24   A.  Well, obviously you can't be 100 per cent sure in

          25       something that's happened so quickly but it seemed to me


                                            22
 

 

 


           1       very apparent that it had been an overpenetrating round

           2       at the scene, purely because of Mr Duggan's actions and

           3       the way that -- W42 had been placed, et cetera.

           4   Q.  Forgive me for putting it this way: for your first hard

           5       stop, this must have been an extremely shocking outcome,

           6       must it not?

           7   A.  Well yes -- I think it would be shocking for anybody

           8       but, yes, it certainly was.

           9   Q.  Did you not have a natural impetus to talk to your

          10       colleagues about it?

          11   A.  No.  To be honest, sir, we take the conferring

          12       guidelines very seriously, obviously, because, you know,

          13       it's something we receive an input on and training and

          14       are told that we under no circumstances can discuss the

          15       things around the actual stop.  Obviously we talked but

          16       we talked about our welfare and just general chit chat.

          17       There was no discussion around the actual stop itself.

          18   Q.  There was obviously discussion at the scene wasn't

          19       there?

          20   A.  In terms of?

          21   Q.  What had happened.

          22   A.  To be honest with you, I cannot recall exactly what was

          23       being discussed at the scene but I think generally it

          24       was first aid related.

          25   Q.  Somebody discussed that there had been a gun found,


                                            23
 

 

 


           1       didn't they?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.  I mean obviously certain facts came to light

           3       as we were going through the first aid, et cetera.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  If you wait there,

           5       please.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you.

           7           Yes, Mr Thomas?

           8                     Questions by MR THOMAS.

           9   MR THOMAS:  W70, I represent the loved ones of Mark Duggan,

          10       okay?

          11   A.  Good morning, sir.

          12   Q.  Just remind me, how long did you say you'd been a police

          13       officer at the time of this incident?

          14   A.  I joined in 2004, so it was just over seven years.

          15   Q.  So -- you understand the expression -- you weren't green

          16       in the job, you knew what you were doing in terms of

          17       writing witness statements?

          18   A.  Yes, I had done witness statements before.

          19   Q.  Yes.  Can we see if we can agree on the following

          20       propositions: you had been a witness to a death in

          21       custody, a death in police contact, correct?

          22   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          23   Q.  You knew that there was going to be an IPCC

          24       investigation into that death, correct?

          25   A.  That's correct, yes.


                                            24
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You knew that you were under an obligation to give

           2       an initial account setting out relevant matters.  Not

           3       in -- all detail, but you had to put in your initial

           4       account all relevant matters.  You knew that.

           5   A.  I do know exactly what the wording is, I am not sure

           6       that it says "all relevant matters" but it definitely

           7       says that you should not do a detailed account within

           8       the first 48 hours.

           9   Q.  Forgive me, I am not talking about a detailed account,

          10       I'm talking about putting in relevant matters.  Are you

          11       saying you didn't know that?

          12   A.  Sorry, didn't know?

          13   Q.  Sorry, the question -- I'll repeat the question.

          14           Are you telling this court that you did not know

          15       that in your first account you needed to put in relevant

          16       matters; is that your evidence?

          17   A.  Sorry, sir, I don't think it says you should put in

          18       relevant matters, I just think it says that you should

          19       not do a detailed account initially.

          20   Q.  Forgive me, I am not talking about a detailed account,

          21       you can put that to one side.  I am not saying to you

          22       you had to do a detailed account; do you follow?

          23   A.  Yes, I follow.

          24   Q.  I am asking you -- my question is a simple one: are you

          25       telling this court that you were unaware that in your


                                            25
 

 

 


           1       initial statement you had to put in relevant matters; is

           2       that your evidence?

           3   A.  I am not still entirely sure I understand the question.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What's the problem?  Is it

           5       a question about what things are relevant to you or

           6       what?

           7   A.  Yes.  In what respect do you say I wasn't aware --

           8   MR THOMAS:  I'm asking you: how do you decide what to put

           9       into your initial account?

          10   A.  Well, the Manual of Guidance basically is there to guide

          11       us through and, not only that, we received legal advice

          12       on the evening.

          13   Q.  Just bear with me one second.  (Pause)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  7.92.

          15   MR THOMAS:  You're ahead of me.  I wonder if that could be

          16       put up on screen.  It's CD010958.  Can I just read it to

          17       you and refresh the court as to what this says.  Just

          18       follow it with me if you would, Officer:

          19           "Each officer's initial account should only consist

          20       of their individual recollection of events and should,

          21       among other things, address the question of what they

          22       believed to be the facts and why, if relevant, they

          23       considered that the use of force and discharge of

          24       firearms was absolutely necessary ..."

          25           Yes?  So can I just break that down, if I may.  Your


                                            26
 

 

 


           1       initial account should be your own individual

           2       recollection of events, agreed?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  You knew that.

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  In fact, you did know this because all of you, all of

           7       the firearms officers, were reminded of this before you

           8       wrote your initial accounts; that's correct, isn't it?

           9   A.  It is, yes.

          10   Q.  So there can be no doubt that this is a lapse of

          11       recollection because the moments before you sat down to

          12       write your notebook, you had this put under your nose

          13       and you were reminded of what your duties were, correct?

          14   A.  I was, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  Thank you.  Let me read on:

          16           "... and should ..."

          17           Notice the mandatory language: "should".  It's not

          18       a discretion, you don't have a choice:

          19           "... among other things, address the question of

          20       what they believed to be the facts ..."

          21           Let's just pause there.  I'm going to come onto your

          22       initial account and analyse it in detail with you in

          23       a moment.  But on your version of events that you have

          24       just told us, what you believe to be the facts are --

          25       and this isn't in detail, this is just the brief


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       headlines -- you and your colleagues are on

           2       an operation, correct?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  That operation is in relation to a man who you believe

           5       to be holding an illegal firearm?

           6   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           7   Q.  You put in -- forgive the abbreviation -- a hard stop,

           8       correct?

           9   A.  That is correct.

          10   Q.  The subject gets out of the vehicle brandishing a gun,

          11       not only at your colleague but also in your direction

          12       and you felt threatened.

          13   A.  That is correct.

          14   Q.  The subject was shot --

          15   A.  Yes, that's also correct.

          16   Q.  -- and a colleague was shot as well.

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  Now, just pause there.  Sorry, I forgot one important

          19       thing to make clear: you saw the gun or what you

          20       believed to be the gun?

          21   A.  That's correct, yes.

          22   Q.  That's not the detailed, is it, that's a very short

          23       summary; would you agree?

          24   A.  Well, sir, on the evening I had a consultation with my

          25       solicitor and they drew my attention to the Manual of


                                            28
 

 

 


           1       Guidance again and said that, had I used force, it would

           2       be very important for me to say so, obviously, but as

           3       I hadn't used force, I should wait until 48 hours later

           4       and do my full detailed account then.

           5   Q.  Hang on a second.  Are you telling us that your advisors

           6       told you not to put in the fact that you had seen a gun?

           7   A.  I don't remember specifically what I was told in terms

           8       of what details to not -- put in and not put in.  I was

           9       certainly told to not do any detail in my initial

          10       account.

          11   Q.  Sorry, you have avoided the question that I put to you.

          12       The summary that I put to you a moment ago -- and I am

          13       not going to repeat it, you heard it -- that did not go

          14       into any of the detail, did it?  You avoided that

          15       question, can you answer it: do you agree?

          16   A.  I'm sorry, I'm not sure which question it is you want me

          17       to answer.

          18   Q.  W70, do you remember the brief summary of what you saw

          19       and what you agreed with that I just put to you, not

          20       less than two minutes ago?

          21   A.  Sorry, no, I'm still a bit lost, can you explain to

          22       me --

          23   Q.  I just went through with you, not less than two minutes

          24       15 seconds ago what you saw that night.  Do you remember

          25       me going through, sentence by sentence --


                                            29
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- very, very brief.  My question was: do you agree that

           3       that account that I went through wasn't in detail, it

           4       was a very brief summary of what you say you saw?

           5   A.  Well, yes it is brief, but it contains details also.

           6   Q.  Well, it doesn't contain the six or seven pages of

           7       detail that you wrote up three days later, does it?

           8   A.  No, but it contains detail nonetheless.

           9   Q.  The one important matter that it does (sic) contain, in

          10       those five or six sentences that I've mentioned to you,

          11       is the fact that you say you saw a gun, you say you felt

          12       threatened and you say a colleague shot Mr Duggan; it

          13       doesn't contain that, does it?

          14   A.  My initial account only contained what it contains.

          15       I was told not to do any detail until 48 hours later.

          16   Q.  Let me ask you this question and it's a simple question

          17       and I would like you to concentrate on it and answer it:

          18       did you speak with anybody and ask them "I've seen

          19       a gun, should I put that in my statement?"

          20   A.  No, there was no conferring.

          21   Q.  Well, you have just said you had a conversation with

          22       people who were telling you not to put detail in your

          23       statement.

          24   A.  With my legal advice, who advised me that I should do

          25       a detailed statement 48 hours later.  I gave my legal


                                            30
 

 

 


           1       advice an account of what I had seen and they said that

           2       should you -- had you used force, it would be important

           3       to say so but, as you had not, you should leave all of

           4       the detail until 48 hours later.

           5   Q.  Can I get this straight: you are saying that there is

           6       an account that you gave on the night where you told

           7       a legal advisor you had seen a gun?

           8   A.  That's correct, yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Who was that?  Who was the legal

          10       advisor who you told that to?

          11   A.  Scott Ingram.

          12   MR THOMAS:  You heard two shots?

          13   A.  Sorry, sir?

          14   Q.  You heard two shots?

          15   A.  I did hear two shots, yes.

          16   Q.  Why didn't you put that in your witness statement?

          17   A.  We have a training cycle and, as part of that training

          18       cycle, periodically we have post-incident procedure

          19       inputs and that will basically go through -- in part

          20       what we've already discussed, about the Manual of

          21       Guidance and how we will receive legal advice around

          22       that.  But it will also discuss perceptual distortion

          23       and how your memory is affected and how your perception

          24       of what happened, either visually or auditory

          25       recollection is affected, and therefore you should be,


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       you know, very careful about saying "I heard two shots"

           2       and one of the phrases that they use within that

           3       training input is "I fired a number of rounds" or

           4       "I heard a number of rounds".

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that written down anywhere, that

           6       training?

           7   A.  I'm not sure, sir, but it's been in the training package

           8       that we have received around post-incident procedures

           9       for quite some time.

          10   MR THOMAS:  You say that is part of the training?

          11   A.  That's correct, yes.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When one looks at the 7.92, which is

          13       up there and talking about each officer, did you take

          14       that to think that it only meant the officer who

          15       actually used the force --

          16   A.  That's correct, yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- not each officer who was present

          18       or witnessed anything?

          19   A.  No, correct, exactly that.  The person who used force

          20       it's obviously relevant to them to justify it.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't think because you were

          22       standing right next to the person who used force that

          23       that applied to you at all.

          24   A.  No, sir, at that time I didn't realise I was the only

          25       person who saw the gun.


                                            32
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Why did you even bother to make the

           2       initial statement at all then?  Why did you not just say

           3       "Forget it" -- I think you had three or four days,

           4       really, because you had Thursday night, Friday night

           5       Saturday night, Sunday night, and then your full account

           6       is made on Monday finishing at 9 o'clock in the evening,

           7       isn't it?

           8   A.  It is, yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you have a long time there, so

          10       why bother making a first statement at all.

          11   A.  I don't know, sir, other than to tell you that it's

          12       what's in the Manual of Guidance and it's how we are

          13       told to do things through our post-incident procedure.

          14   MR THOMAS:  We have not seen this Manual of Guidance.  It's

          15       obviously relevant.

          16           I'm going to continue.  Can I just come back to --

          17       I'm going to put some of what you have just said on

          18       a shelf and come back to it in a moment but let me deal

          19       with some other matters, if I may.

          20           Can I take matters up near the incident itself.  So

          21       you have arrived at Ferry Lane and you are about to

          22       deploy; okay?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  No, sorry, forgive me, something that I had forgotten.

          25           Can we just go back to your EAB.  You have said that


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       there was no conferring.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What are we going back to?

           3   MR THOMAS:  The notebook.

           4           You said there was no conferring, correct?

           5   A.  Correct, yes.

           6   Q.  The one thing we can agree, and if we can turn to the

           7       second page of your EAB, CD26, the one officer who's not

           8       present when you write -- sorry, it's 28, sorry, forgive

           9       me.

          10           The one officer who's not present -- if we just

          11       enlarge that and go to the top -- can you see when you

          12       made your notes, was the shooter, correct?

          13   A.  V53 wasn't there, no.

          14   Q.  No.  Everybody else was who was relevant in terms of the

          15       firearms operation but V53.

          16           Now, your witness statement, if you just bear with

          17       me one moment -- this is in your pocket book -- consists

          18       of eight sentences.  I've counted them.  Do you take it

          19       from me that it's eight sentences?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, can we just go back to the

          22       page before and blow that up where the names are.  The

          23       wording under -- the printed wording underneath that:

          24           "It is essential that you record a complete accounts

          25       of events.  It is intended to protect you from needless


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       civil action or complaint investigation."

           2           Did you read all of that and were you aware of all

           3       of that?

           4   A.  I am aware, sir, yes.  Obviously in a normal, if you

           5       look, for want of a better phrase, arrest or incident

           6       then that would be applicable but I think the Manual of

           7       Guidance is kind of the overriding guidance, if you

           8       like, on --

           9   MR THOMAS:  Sorry, I have just read to you the Manual of

          10       Guidance and looked at the paragraph.  Let's read this

          11       out for the jury because it's very small print.  When

          12       you do your notebook it says this:

          13           "It is essential that you record a complete account

          14       of events.  It is intended to protect you from needless

          15       civil action or complaint investigation.  You must

          16       follow the following guidance.  Your notes will be

          17       subject to close scrutiny.  You may confer with other

          18       officers who were present for an overview, but these

          19       notes are to assist your recollection."

          20           Yes?  Then it goes on and sets out some guidance:

          21           "Set the scene: as fully as possible on day, date,

          22       time, detail, place, et cetera.

          23           "State the information you had before attending the

          24       scene, this will help explain your actions.

          25           "If notes were not made at the scene, explain fully.


                                            35
 

 

 


           1           "Do not mention sensitive sources/techniques."

           2           It gives some action.  Let me read that:

           3           "State what happened when you arrived.

           4           "Record all questions asked/answers given both

           5       before and after caution.  Keep an open mind.  You are

           6       duty bound to gather all evidence and entitled to

           7       question any person from whom useful information can be

           8       obtained.  You should include hearsay.

           9           "Fully record your actions and the options

          10       considered up to the point of arrest.

          11           "Show what factors influenced your decision,

          12       including the reasons for not taking action."

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The next page -- that's it, is it?

          14   MR THOMAS:  That's it.  That's where you actually start the

          15       rubric.

          16           I fully accept that, to the extent that this

          17       notebook says you should go into detail, then the

          18       guidance that you've been given supersedes that; do you

          19       follow?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.  That's how I interpret it.

          21   Q.  I don't challenge that, I accept that, but it does make

          22       it clear, even in this notebook, that relevant matters

          23       you should put in.  It doesn't say there should be no

          24       conferring; would you agree?  It does not say there

          25       should be no conferring.  It says that if you confer,


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       you should follow -- you should be confer for

           2       an overview, but the notes should be your independent

           3       recollection; do you agree with that?

           4   A.  Yes, I do.

           5   Q.  So I come back to the point.  Your notes, one of the

           6       obvious things that should have been in your notes,

           7       should have been the fact that you saw a gun and you

           8       felt threatened before it was discharged.

           9   A.  As I said to you before, sir, my attention was drawn to

          10       the Manual of Guidance by my legal advice and they said

          11       that I should do my detailed account 48 hours later.

          12   Q.  Are you saying, in terms of -- and this is important --

          13       you were going to put that in and you were told not to,

          14       about the gun?

          15   A.  No, I don't think I said I was going to put it in,

          16       I never considered to put it in because after my advice

          17       I considered that I shouldn't be doing anything of

          18       detail in my initial account.

          19   Q.  Were you told -- you weren't the shooter, right, so you

          20       knew that it would be for the shooter to justify the

          21       shots, but I'm asking you were you told not to mention

          22       the gun in your --

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think it's only fair that the witness

          24       should understand that we're into the realms of legal

          25       professional privilege here.


                                            37
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  We are not.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He has already, of his own accord,

           3       volunteered it away, has he not, it's his privilege not

           4       anybody else's.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  It is his privilege and what he's said so far

           6       is what he told his solicitor.  Now what he's being

           7       asked is what advice his solicitor gave him.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           9   MR THOMAS:  Okay.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Of course, it's up to him to waive it, as you

          11       rightly say, sir.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The answer I got from him before and

          13       noted down:

          14           "I told my legal advice that night that I had seen

          15       a gun."

          16           I asked who it was:

          17           "I told Scott Ingram, he told me not to put in any

          18       details."

          19           So I thought, there again, of his own accord, he

          20       seems to have waived his legal privilege.  Whether

          21       I should warn him about it or what the position is,

          22       I don't know.  What do you say, Mr Stern?

          23   MR STERN:  Well, I didn't want to interrupt but I was rather

          24       surprised, if I may say so, that the usual course that's

          25       adopted in this circumstance was not adopted by you,


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       sir, if I may say so.

           2           Also, in relation to my learned friend, he knows

           3       full well that this is an area that he should not be

           4       asking questions about, subject -- subject -- to the

           5       question of whether or not the officer wishes to waive

           6       privilege.

           7           Now, that is something that ordinarily an individual

           8       is entitled to be given advice about and entitled to

           9       discuss in detail.  That didn't happen and I'm always

          10       reluctant to interrupt when somebody is being asked

          11       questions about issues like this and about sensitive

          12       issues.

          13           But, having said that, the proper rules ought to

          14       apply, and they haven't so far.  So in strict terms he

          15       should be told about the position, about privilege, and

          16       he has an opportunity not to waive that if he doesn't

          17       want to.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  What we'll do is have

          19       our mid-morning break now.  You can speak with the

          20       witness because you represent him, and he can take some

          21       advice from you and in quarter of an hour or so's time

          22       when you're ready we will then resume and see where we

          23       go to from there.

          24   MR STERN:  I will have to consider whether I think it's

          25       appropriate to speak to him, first of all, because he's


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       in the middle of giving his evidence and you have

           2       already made it quite clear that people should not

           3       discuss their case in the middle of their evidence.

           4   MR THOMAS:  Sir, can I make it clear for my part, subject to

           5       this issue, I have no objections to Mr Stern taking

           6       instructions from his client.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are, members of the jury,

           8       I think it's time for you to go separate ways and look

           9       at other things.  Thank you very much so far, we'll ask

          10       for the cameras to be turned off.

          11                   (In the absence of the jury)


          15                  (In the presence of the jury)

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Now we'll have the witness, please,

          17       W70.

          18           Thank you very much, members of the jury, I'm sorry

          19       to keep you out there standing for a while but you will

          20       be very happy to know we are all in agreement, so the

          21       little problem we thought we had that no longer exists.

          22       So we are ready to press on.

          23                (The witness returned into court)

          24                         W70 (continued)

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  The cameras can be put


                                            70
 

 

 


           1       back on as they are.  Thank you very much W70, have

           2       a seat.  Again, public apologies to you that you've been

           3       kept waiting in the middle of your evidence but you'll

           4       be pleased to know we are in a position now to press on

           5       with the questions and answers as before and you are

           6       still under the oath that you took at the beginning of

           7       your evidence.

           8           Mr Underwood is just going to ask you one or two

           9       questions just to clarify an issue.

          10   A.  Thank you.

          11                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  I'm interrupting Mr Thomas to ask you about

          13       the conversation you had with your solicitor in the time

          14       between the shooting and you making your first notebook

          15       entry; do you understand?

          16   A.  I do, yes.

          17   Q.  There's a note of that conversation.  Have you seen

          18       that?

          19   A.  I have, yes.

          20   Q.  Are you happy to waive your legal privilege over that

          21       conversation and that note?

          22   A.  I am, yes.

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Right

          25       Mr Thomas we are back now to your questions that were


                                            71
 

 

 


           1       asking.

           2                Questions by MR THOMAS (continued)

           3   MR THOMAS:  W70, good afternoon.

           4   A.  Good afternoon, sir.

           5   Q.  All right.  Can we take up where we left off.  I was

           6       asking you about page CD -- this is the notebook --

           7       page 28.

           8           If that could just be enlarged and we look at the

           9       very top of the page.  Just before we adjourned for

          10       lunch, one of the questions that I put to you, or one of

          11       the propositions I put to you, and I think you accepted,

          12       or appeared to accept, was that your notebook consists

          13       of eight sentences; do you remember me putting that to

          14       you?

          15   A.  I do, yes.

          16   Q.  Can you help us with this: we can see, if we look at the

          17       top of the screen, we can see that you started your

          18       notebook at 22.58, correct --

          19   A.  Correct, yes.

          20   Q.  -- and you finished your notebook at 23.55.

          21   A.  That's correct, yes.

          22   Q.  So just short of an hour?

          23   A.  That's correct.

          24   Q.  Now, you've told us that you met with your solicitor

          25       beforehand, you had a conversation with your solicitor,


                                            72
 

 

 


           1       yes?

           2   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           3   Q.  You were given certain advice, correct?

           4   A.  Correct, yes.

           5   Q.  You decided to omit certain details in this relatively

           6       short statement.

           7   A.  I think I omitted all details from the -- in terms of

           8       the evidence.

           9   Q.  Sorry, you have not omitted all details.  How can that

          10       be if you have written eight sentences?

          11   A.  Sorry, sir, all I mean is I didn't put any detail of the

          12       actual stop within that --

          13   Q.  If you listen to the question, I think you will agree

          14       with it.

          15   A.  Okay.

          16   Q.  You decided to omit certain details.  In particular, you

          17       decided to omit the gun, that you saw the gun; do you

          18       follow?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  That was one detail you decided to omit.  You decided to

          21       omit the number of shots.

          22   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          23   Q.  Okay.  My question is this: bearing in mind you had the

          24       legal advice, you knew that the statement you were going

          25       to write was a relatively sterile statement with very


                                            73
 

 

 


           1       few details, why did it take you nearly an hour?

           2   A.  Well, sir, obviously where we were was in quite a busy

           3       office and there were lots of comings and goings, senior

           4       members of staff coming in --

           5   Q.  What's that got to do with anything?

           6   A.  It certainly wasn't done under exam conditions, if you

           7       like.  We were not sat round in silence doing them

           8       really, really quickly, there were lots of people coming

           9       in, we took refreshments.  So I cannot say exactly why

          10       it took an hour but we certainly didn't hurry through

          11       them.

          12   Q.  You see I'm going to suggestion to you the reason why it

          13       took you so long was you were very concerned, were you

          14       not, to know what your colleagues were going to be

          15       writing.  In other words, you wanted to make sure, on

          16       the initial account, your stories matched; do you

          17       understand what I'm suggesting to you?

          18   A.  I understand what you're suggesting, sir, but it's not

          19       correct.

          20   Q.  That's why it took nearly an hour to write eight simple

          21       sterile sentences; that's the truth, isn't it?

          22   A.  As I said, sir, there was no discussion around the

          23       content of those notes.

          24   Q.  Very well.  Let me move on.

          25           By the way, it's still up on that shelf that I'm


                                            74
 

 

 


           1       going to pick down in a moment in relation to that

           2       conversation you had with your solicitor, I haven't

           3       forgotten about it, just so you're aware.

           4           Let's come onto the scene.  So you arrive at the

           5       scene and I just want to go through that with you if

           6       I may, please.

           7           The hard stop is put in, okay.  You understand what

           8       I mean by the "hard stop"?

           9   A.  I do, yes.

          10   Q.  That's the expression we've been using and I'm going to

          11       stick to that expression.  The hard stop has been put in

          12       and your vehicle and the other vehicles literally box in

          13       the minicab, okay?

          14   A.  That's a fairly good description, yes.

          15   Q.  Can I just take matters up please at page -- this is the

          16       witness statement of the 7th August, it's page 142.  I'm

          17       looking more or less at the second half of that page.

          18           I'm taking matters up, and forgive me if I break

          19       this down but it's just important to make sure I've

          20       understood your evidence correctly.  So the part where

          21       it says:

          22           "As R68 shouted 'Doors, doors' ..."

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  "At 1813 hours I deployed quickly from the vehicle onto

          25       the footway immediately gaining vision onto the subject


                                            75
 

 

 


           1       vehicle for signs of non-compliance and it trying to

           2       break out, it was completely stationary ..."

           3           Just pause there.  There was no problem with the

           4       minicab trying to move off?

           5   A.  No.

           6   Q.  "... I could see the side door was already slid open and

           7       I could see the left-hand side profile of the subject

           8       emerging from the side door ..."

           9   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          10   Q.  You say that's Mark Duggan.  You give a description of

          11       him and you give a description of the clothing that he's

          12       wearing, okay?

          13   A.  Pause there.

          14   Q.  You then say this.  The first thing you note is you are

          15       about five metres away, correct --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- at this point in time when he's just emerging?

          18   A.  Yes, that's approximately -- yes, I would say a fairly

          19       good estimate.

          20   Q.  So what's that?  Five metres is what, if you look across

          21       this court room, where you are to where, just to give us

          22       an idea so we can visualise it?

          23   A.  Probably just short of where you are, sir, so where the

          24       bin is, maybe a little bit further on.

          25   Q.  Just short of where I am, so that gives certainly the


                                            76
 

 

 


           1       jury an idea of the distance and then you say this:

           2           "It was broad daylight and I had a clear and

           3       unobstructed view ..."

           4           So the distance you have just mentioned to us in

           5       court, W70, there was nothing in between you and Mark

           6       Duggan impeding your vision, correct?

           7   A.  That's correct.

           8   Q.  Very well.  Tell us: at that point in time, when there's

           9       nothing impeding your vision, what is Mr Duggan doing?

          10   A.  Sorry, as he's exiting the minicab?

          11   Q.  Yes, what is he doing?

          12   A.  I think I went through it before but he's basically come

          13       out of the minicab, I've seen the side profile of him

          14       emerging and, as we went through before, he had hold of

          15       his left hand bottom lapel of his jacket and his right

          16       arm was crossed across his waistband in towards the

          17       left-hand side of his waist.

          18   Q.  Bear with me a second.  I would like it if Mr Scott

          19       could just put up a photograph, please, of -- I am just

          20       trying to think of a relevant photo that might assist --

          21       the minicab in Ferry Lane.

          22   MR STERN:  79?

          23   MR THOMAS:  Yes, 79.  Thank you very much, Mr Stern, that's

          24       very helpful.  Excellent.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's in the jury bundle at our


                                            77
 

 

 


           1       page 113.

           2   MR THOMAS:  Yes.  You can see the photograph.  You can see

           3       the minicab, we can see the sliding door.  Obviously

           4       it's not side on but it just gives us an idea, okay?

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You will see the C car shown just in

           6       front of the D car just around the back with the door

           7       open; do you see that?

           8   A.  I have it, sir, yes.

           9   MR THOMAS:  Can you just help me with this.  You can

          10       actually see the sliding door, do you see that?  It's

          11       open.

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  So that's from where Mark Duggan exited the cab,

          14       correct?

          15   A.  That's correct, yes.

          16   Q.  I would be right in thinking that you are -- can you see

          17       where the photographer is standing taking the

          18       photograph?

          19   A.  I've got it, yes, to the right of the telegraph pole or

          20       lamppost, yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Lamppost, yes.

          22   MR THOMAS:  Would you have been down in that direction?

          23   A.  I would, yes.

          24   Q.  As we look at the photograph, you would have been in the

          25       distance, further along the pavement, near -- I think


                                            78
 

 

 


           1       there's a bus stop near there or in that vicinity, but

           2       that's where your car would have been?

           3   A.  No, sir.  If you see --

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You can see it actually on it.

           5   A.  I could point --

           6   MR THOMAS:  Just point to us.

           7   A.  I think this looks like the front passenger door of the

           8       Charlie vehicle here (indicates).  So the door I came

           9       out of was just behind that.

          10   MR THOMAS:  Right, okay.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The little white patch on the

          12       pavement, which is just outside the door, really, isn't

          13       it?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   MR THOMAS:  The actual person taking this photograph -- so

          16       if you imagine the person taking this photograph is in

          17       the opposite direction to where you were; do you follow?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  That would have been where W42 was coming from, he would

          20       have been walking in this direction, walking towards

          21       you, agreed?

          22   A.  Yes, that's --

          23   Q.  Right.  So, as you imagine Mark Duggan coming out of the

          24       side door of that minicab, and there you are with

          25       a clear and unobstructed view, can you please tell us in


                                            79
 

 

 


           1       which direction was Mr Duggan?  Was he facing you or was

           2       he facing W42?

           3   A.  As I saw him emerge, he was facing -- it's quite hard to

           4       describe exactly how because he rolled out of the

           5       minicab so he was never looking in any particular

           6       direction for more than a split second but I did not see

           7       him look up towards W42.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Your evidence of pivoting, as

           9       I understand what you're saying, is virtually his left

          10       shoulder really on the sliding door coming out and

          11       coming straight in your direction; is that right?

          12   A.  Exactly that, sir, yes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          14   MR THOMAS:  So he pivots out of the vehicle immediately into

          15       your direction, so he's then, as it were, face on with

          16       you; would that be right?

          17   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          18   Q.  Can you just help us with this: just so I'm absolutely

          19       clear as to what you are saying, as soon as he's out and

          20       his feet are on the pavement and he's face on with you,

          21       can you see the gun, at that point.  So he's literally

          22       just stepped out of the vehicle, he's pivoted and he's

          23       facing you; can you see the gun?

          24   A.  My perception was, as he's turned -- as immediate -- as

          25       I can tell, almost immediately he's just moved his lapel


                                            80
 

 

 


           1       out and that's when I've seen the gun.  So it was pretty

           2       much instantaneously, as he's turned towards me, that

           3       I have seen the gun.

           4   Q.  Let's look at what you say in your statement.  This is

           5       page 142:

           6           "I was approximately five metres away it was broad

           7       daylight and I had a clear and unobstructed view of the

           8       male."

           9           Then you talk about your Hatton gun, right, and

          10       ignore that sentence because it is about the Hatton gun.

          11       Then you say:

          12           "I was already shouting 'Armed police' as I exited

          13       the Charlie vehicle:"

          14           Then you say this:

          15           "I continued to shout this as I ran towards the

          16       subject, I was at arms length behind V53 and to his

          17       right approx level with the windscreen of the Charlie

          18       vehicle.  I saw the subject pivot out of the door as

          19       I did he was stooped over with his right hand crossed

          20       across his body with his hand inside the left-hand side

          21       of his jacket towards his waistband."

          22           My question was: when he stepped out could you see

          23       the gun?  You said that you could.

          24   A.  Not immediately, sir, no, because as he's stepped,

          25       obviously I've got the side profile and the gun was


                                            81
 

 

 


           1       underneath this part of the jacket.  As he's turned,

           2       that's obviously revealed more of the front of his

           3       abdomen.

           4   Q.  Let me just read you this sentence again:

           5           "I saw the subject pivot out of the door as he did

           6       he was stooped over with his right hand across crossed

           7       across his body with his hand inside the left-hand side

           8       of his jacket towards his waistband.  I continued to

           9       shout 'Armed police stand still'.  It appeared that his

          10       left hand was in his pocket of the jacket or holding the

          11       left-hand lower zip part of the jacket around his right

          12       hand."

          13           Then you go on to say this:

          14           "It very much appeared to me that he was concealing

          15       something within his jacket in his right hand."

          16           What do you mean by that?

          17   A.  I mean, sir, it appeared that he was holding a gun or

          18       concealing something under that lower part -- left-hand

          19       lapel of his jacket.

          20   Q.  That's not what you say in your witness statement.  You

          21       say this and I repeat the three words again: "concealing

          22       something within".

          23           I come back to it: what is your evidence, W70, are

          24       you saying when he stepped out and he was facing you at

          25       this point you could see the gun?


                                            82
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I've never said I could see the gun straightaway.

           2       Obviously, when he stepped out, he was concealing

           3       something in his jacket.  I didn't know what that was at

           4       the time.  Within split seconds, he has then revealed

           5       that to be a gun.

           6   Q.  Right.  I'm asking you these questions for a reason.

           7       When Mr Duggan steps out of the van, right, at the point

           8       you can see him concealing something, you can't see what

           9       it is, correct?

          10   A.  That's correct, yes.

          11   Q.  At that point in time -- if we just freeze frame that

          12       point in time -- he's on the pavement and he's facing

          13       you, correct?

          14   A.  Yes.  As I say, it was a very fluid movement so he has

          15       turned out of the minicab, there's no pause, it's just

          16       a fluid movement out and faced towards me.

          17   Q.  My question is a simple one: at that point in time, when

          18       he's facing you, your evidence is 'I couldn't see the

          19       gun at that stage, his hand was in his jacket as if it

          20       was concealing something'; that's all I'm asking you.

          21   A.  As I said, it was more or less instantaneous.  I can't

          22       be specific about the amount of time that elapsed from

          23       as he was turning to me to when he's revealed the gun,

          24       but to me it seemed almost instantaneously.

          25   Q.  Hang on a second before you say it was almost


                                            83
 

 

 


           1       instantaneously.  Let's read on to say what you say in

           2       your witness statement, because I have just freeze

           3       framed for you, W70, this point in time where you're

           4       saying he's facing you and you cannot see the gun.  Just

           5       to be clear on this: the person who's alongside you is

           6       the shooter, V53, isn't he?

           7   A.  He is, yes, he's in front of me and off to the left.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not directly alongside you, he's in

           9       front of you.

          10   A.  As I say, it's very difficult to marry up exactly where

          11       he was in relation to where Mr Duggan was.  My

          12       perception was that, as Mr Duggan's exited the minicab,

          13       that V53 was in front of me.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You say at arm's length, could you

          15       have reached out and touched him?

          16   A.  Yes, certainly I felt like he was just here (indicates)

          17       in my periphery.

          18   MR THOMAS:  You are both looking in the direction of

          19       Mr Duggan?

          20   A.  Yes, we are.

          21   Q.  Yes.  So at that point in time, let's just read on -- in

          22       other words, you don't immediately see a gun?

          23   A.  No, I don't immediately see a gun, until he has turned

          24       to face and then revealed.

          25   Q.  Bear with me.  You don't immediately see a gun because


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           1       you say, and these are your words, in your witness

           2       statement, that:

           3           "... his left hand was in his pocket of the jacket

           4       or holding the left-hand lower zip part of the jacket

           5       around his right hand."

           6           In other words the lower left-hand part of the

           7       jacket was concealing the right hand; that's your

           8       evidence, isn't it?

           9   A.  That's correct, yes.

          10   Q.  Then you say "it very much appeared to me that" whatever

          11       it was that was in his right hand was being concealed.

          12   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          13   Q.  Then you say this, if I can read on:

          14           "I felt very much at risk and thought I was in

          15       danger as this male was believed to be in possession of

          16       a firearm."

          17           Let's just pause there.  So there you are, you're

          18       not saying there "I felt at risk because I could see

          19       a firearm".  What you're saying is "I felt at risk

          20       because the man was thought to be in possession of

          21       a firearm"; have I understood that correctly?

          22   A.  No, I felt the risk because, as Mr Duggan emerged, it

          23       was immediately apparent that he was holding this

          24       (indicates) over something that he was holding in his

          25       right.


                                            85
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Could you stand up and demonstrate what you're doing to

           2       the jury?

           3   A.  As I demonstrated before?

           4   Q.  Just what you just did.

           5   A.  (Pause)

           6           Okay, so Mr Duggan was holding this or his hand was

           7       in his pocket, I couldn't tell.  This was round here

           8       like that and this was held over like this (indicates).

           9   Q.  I am going to demonstrate what you're doing, you can

          10       correct me if I am wrong, with your left hand you are

          11       holding the bottom of your jacket --

          12   A.  Yes, correct.

          13   Q.  -- in that position.  You have that over the right hand

          14       and the right hand is concealed.

          15   A.  That's correct.

          16   Q.  You've got him in that sort of position (indicates).

          17   A.  He was very low on his legs as he came out.  He turned

          18       at the same time and then set off in a run.

          19   Q.  Right, okay.  Understood, I was just doing that for the

          20       people in Court 76.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was he wearing gloves?  I do not

          22       think you've been asked this yet but I'm sure we'll find

          23       out.

          24   A.  At the time, sir, I was not really aware of his hands

          25       but obviously having done first aid on him he certainly


                                            86
 

 

 


           1       wasn't wearing gloves then.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't notice it at your picture

           3       that you're thinking back now as you're asked these

           4       questions?  You don't know whether you were looking at

           5       his hands or gloves?

           6   A.  No, as I was only, as I say, aware that he had control

           7       of this and his arm and hand was inside this left hand

           8       part.

           9   MR THOMAS:  "... I was very much at risk and thought I was

          10       in danger as this male was believed to be in possession

          11       of a firearm.  I already had my hand on the pistol grip

          12       of my Glock with the intention of drawing it and

          13       pointing it at the male ..."

          14           Is that right?

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  Pause here.  Up until this point in time, you've made no

          17       mention of seeing a gun; would you agree?

          18   A.  (Pause)

          19           No, that's correct.

          20   Q.  Let's read on.  You then say this:

          21           "... following the initial stop under S47 Firearms

          22       Act.  As the subject set off in a sort of half run

          23       towards me I saw him very quickly pull his right hand up

          24       and out of his jacket."

          25           Before I read the rest of that sentence, could you


                                            87
 

 

 


           1       stand up and demonstrate what you mean by: I saw him

           2       very quickly pull his right hand up.

           3   A.  (Pause)

           4           (Indicates) there.  As he's turned, that sort of

           5       movement up towards his abdomen.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you do that so I can see, as

           7       well?

           8   A.  As he's turned and set off, that sort of movement.

           9       Obviously he's a bit more bent down but that kind of --

          10       (indicates).

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          12   MR THOMAS:  Can I just be clear on this: you see a gun at

          13       this point, do you?

          14   A.  I do, yes.

          15   Q.  Right.  The gun that you see, is it pointed at you?

          16   A.  No, I didn't see it pointed at me, no.

          17   Q.  Is it pointed in the direction in which you are coming

          18       from?

          19   A.  No.  I saw the gun, it was like a side profile of it.

          20   Q.  Yes.  Let's be clear on this.  On your version of

          21       events, Mr Duggan is now face on with you in a half sort

          22       of run coming towards you; correct?

          23   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          24   Q.  In that half sort of run coming towards you, your

          25       evidence isn't that he points the gun in your direction


                                            88
 

 

 


           1       by the time you hear shots, is it?

           2   A.  I didn't see the gun pointed in my direction at any

           3       point, no.

           4   Q.  Let's be clear on this.  Your evidence is the gun is

           5       side on to the stomach when you see it?

           6   A.  Yes, it's been held at the abdomen but it was drawn from

           7       further round the waist so it's been drawn across and up

           8       to a point here (indicates).

           9   Q.  Obviously the whole purpose of this operation was to

          10       identify, seize and retain a firearm; would I be right?

          11   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          12   Q.  This is what you've been trained for; would I be right

          13       about that?

          14   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          15   Q.  There you are, you see this gun across the abdomen, you

          16       don't raise your weapon into the aim position, do you?

          17   A.  Sir, I think, as I put on my statement, as I came out,

          18       I'm looking to see if the tyres require deflating on the

          19       taxi.  It quickly became apparent they didn't.  At the

          20       same time as I'm making that assessment, Mr Duggan is

          21       already exiting his car.  I have then set off and at the

          22       same time I'm reaching for my gun but in, you know,

          23       fractions of a second we've gone from that to more or

          24       less, you know, under two seconds, I'm actually on top

          25       of Mr Duggan, as it were, holding his wrists.


                                            89
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Hang on, we're going to get to when you get to

           2       Mr Duggan.  My question was: Mr Duggan never aims or

           3       points a gun in your general direction.

           4   A.  I didn't see him point the gun in my direction, no.

           5   Q.  Let's be clear on this.  When you say you didn't see him

           6       point the gun in your general direction, you still had

           7       a clear and unobstructed view of Mr Duggan, didn't you?

           8   A.  I did.  There was nothing obstructing my way but

           9       I didn't clearly see what happened to that gun.

          10   Q.  I have not come to the gun yet.  I'm talking about the

          11       point of the gun.  You're jumping ahead W70, we will get

          12       there.  But I'm talking about the point where you see

          13       the gun drawn, on your version of events.  All I'm

          14       asking you at that point, you see the gun drawn across

          15       the abdomen, is there anything obstructing your view and

          16       I think your answer is "No, there wasn't".

          17   A.  No, there wasn't.

          18   Q.  So, on your version of events where you are in the

          19       direction you are in, Mr Duggan does not point the gun

          20       in your general direction, it's across the abdomen;

          21       would I be right?

          22   A.  Not that I saw, no.

          23   Q.  Is the answer "Yes, he didn't point the gun"?

          24   A.  It's still "Not that I saw".

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He is answering yes, that's what he


                                            90
 

 

 


           1       saw, three times.

           2   MR THOMAS:  I shall move on.  Then you say this -- you talk

           3       about your emotions I am not going to go through that,

           4       you talk about the surge of adrenaline and all the rest

           5       of it but I want to come onto the facts.  You say this:

           6           "At this point I was only 3 metres or so away from

           7       the subject."

           8           Correct?

           9   A.  Yes, correct, that's in my statement.

          10   Q.  Let's just be clear on this: you indicated your

          11       perception of five metres would have been from where you

          12       were sitting now to where the bin is.  Three metres

          13       would be where?  From where you are sitting to where --

          14   A.  More or less where the -- sorry, where the juror is sat.

          15   Q.  Where the first juror is sat?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Again, just so we are clear, I will be right, wouldn't

          18       I, W70, the one thing you would be concerned about would

          19       be your welfare and the welfare of your colleagues;

          20       would that be fair?

          21   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  Your eyes would be on the gun; would that be fair?

          23   A.  I don't know exactly where my eyes did look but, yes,

          24       I certainly would have been concentrating on the weapon.

          25   Q.  Yes.


                                            91
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you and Mr Duggan come together

           2       at the same sort of speed, do you think you are

           3       narrowing the gap between the two of you?

           4   A.  Certainly, yes, it was very very fast.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're moving fast just as he's

           6       moving towards you.

           7   A.  It was exactly that.  It was very dynamic I cannot

           8       recall exactly at what point he was when I saw him do

           9       certain things because, obviously, my vision had kind of

          10       narrowed, as it were.

          11   MR THOMAS:  So there you are, as you've indicated, where the

          12       gentleman is sitting in the front row towards the left

          13       of the jury from where you are, you're still -- you have

          14       still got a clear and unobstructed view.  In other

          15       words, what I'm saying to you is that V53 is not in your

          16       way from seeing Mr Duggan; do you follow?

          17   A.  Yes, that's correct, he wasn't in my way.

          18   Q.  So there you are, we can all see, you would have been

          19       concentrating on the gun, you hear the shots.  What

          20       happened to the gun?

          21   A.  I don't know where the gun went from when I saw it at

          22       his abdomen.

          23   Q.  Magically disappeared, did it?

          24   A.  Well, no, sir.  As I say, I don't know what happened to

          25       it.  But I can give you what I think probably happened


                                            92
 

 

 


           1       to it but I don't know what happened to it.

           2   Q.  I am not going to ask you to speculate, I just want to

           3       hear the facts; do you follow?

           4   A.  Yes, absolutely.

           5   Q.  Tell me this, in terms of facts.  Apart from Mr Duggan

           6       falling forward in the manner that you have already

           7       described, did you see him making any jerky movements

           8       with his arms?

           9   A.  No, I kind of lost track of what his arms did up until

          10       the point where I saw them up raised to his chest.

          11   Q.  From the point that you see the gun across Mr Duggan's

          12       abdomen to the point where you say that you see his arms

          13       to his chest, this is after he's been shot, did you see

          14       him throw the gun, from the three metres or so you're

          15       away from him, with your clear and unobstructed view.

          16       Help us?

          17   A.  As I say I didn't see what happened to the gun.

          18   Q.  Did you see Mr Duggan make a throwing movement: yes or

          19       no?

          20   A.  I didn't, no.

          21   Q.  No.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just to help us, can you describe

          23       again what this gun looked like to you, your memory of

          24       the actual appearance of it?

          25   A.  I think it -- obviously appreciating that I only saw it


                                            93
 

 

 


           1       for a split second and the manner in which it was drawn

           2       and -- I didn't see any detail of it, just that it was

           3       a gun-shaped object, effectively.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  A gun-shaped object.

           5   MR THOMAS:  How did you know it was a self-loading gun then?

           6   A.  Because a self-loading pistol was quite a distinctive

           7       shape.

           8   MR THOMAS:  In a sock?

           9   A.  Exactly, that's why I said it was a gun-shaped object.

          10   Q.  You saw the sock, did you?

          11   A.  No, I didn't see the sock.

          12   Q.  You didn't see the sock.  You didn't see the sock but

          13       you describe it as a self-loading pistol.  You didn't

          14       see where the gun went, you didn't see him throw it; did

          15       you actually see a gun?

          16   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Help us with this: there's this man who, so far as

          18       you're concerned, has got a gun on him; you don't see

          19       him drop the gun, do you?

          20   A.  No, sir.

          21   Q.  You don't see him throw the gun, do you?

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We've been through all this already.

          23   A.  No, sir.

          24   MR THOMAS:  But you go and grab him when he might still have

          25       the weapon on him; that's nonsense, isn't it?


                                            94
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, sir because I could clearly see his hands were

           2       empty.  He was within, you know -- closing at a pace but

           3       he was within metres of me and then eventually to close

           4       the gap.

           5   Q.  You could clearly see his hands were empty.  Officer,

           6       I'm going to suggest that's the first truthful thing you

           7       have said all day when he got out of the car --

           8   MR STERN:  Sorry, this is not appropriate for this forum.

           9       It is absolutely not appropriate for this forum and it

          10       is unhelpful and it is, frankly, insulting.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas, let's press on but let's

          12       be careful, please.

          13           So you didn't see a gun in his hands and you go to

          14       grab his hands?

          15   A.  Exactly that, sir, yes.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You tell us again why you grabbed

          17       his hands or went to do that.

          18   A.  Well, effectively he was collapsing back down, so after

          19       initially falling forward, he's gone down onto his knees

          20       and his arms are up in this sort of area here

          21       (indicates) around his chest.  I can see that he's got

          22       no weapon in his hands, so I took the opportunity -- as

          23       I say, it was a very fast moving incident -- to just

          24       grab his hands and take control of him.

          25   Q.  Can I --


                                            95
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Take him down to the ground, or what

           2       happened?

           3   A.  My perception was that he was almost -- he was on his

           4       way down anyway so as I've grabbed him, I've just sort

           5       of -- where he's sitting on his own feet, as it were,

           6       I've kind of lowed him back down on the ground onto his

           7       back.

           8   MR THOMAS:  Not in an arm lock?

           9   A.  I cannot recall using an arm lock.  Initially, no,

          10       I definitely grabbed both arms, initially.

          11   MR THOMAS:  Was an arm lock necessary, was he still

          12       struggling.

          13   A.  At the time, I didn't know where the gun was, I had no

          14       idea where the gun was, so he's still a threat until we

          15       can ascertain he's not a threat.

          16   Q.  Was he struggling?

          17   A.  No, he didn't struggle.

          18   Q.  Was an arm lock necessary?

          19   A.  I cannot recall putting him in an arm lock in the first

          20       instance but certainly, yes, because until you know that

          21       that person is incapacitated, you have to assume that

          22       they are still a threat to you so he could have been

          23       faking it, you know, he could have just been putting it

          24       on, that he was unconscious, and then if he knew where

          25       that weapon was, he could have made an attempt to get


                                            96
 

 

 


           1       back in the -- and arm himself.

           2   Q.  You heard two shots.  You heard two shots and you

           3       believe that it was your colleague who had fired at him,

           4       V53, correct?

           5   A.  That's correct, yes.

           6   Q.  At the time you hear the two shots, he goes down,

           7       correct?

           8   A.  Yes, that's correct.  He doesn't go down on the spot

           9       that he was shot, he certainly makes more distance, as

          10       it were, towards --

          11   Q.  So on your version, after he's shot, he's still making

          12       distance, on your version?

          13   A.  As I say --

          14   Q.  Is that right?

          15   A.  He fell down onto his knees but he was stumbling as he

          16       was running but it's difficult to describe his body

          17       movements because effectively he was kind of sinking

          18       down on his legs towards a kneeling position but he was

          19       still making ground forwards, I believe, under the

          20       momentum he had from running.

          21   Q.  Again, I just want to run with your version of events.

          22       So, on your version of events, you hear the shots and

          23       there is forward momentum that Mr Duggan, on your

          24       version of events, is still moving forwards, falling

          25       forwards to his knees until you manage to grab his arms;


                                            97
 

 

 


           1       is that right?

           2   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           3   Q.  So you would say it's quite wrong to suggest, after the

           4       two shots he flinches backwards and falls backwards, on

           5       your version; is that right?

           6   A.  I didn't see him do that.  As I say, he eventually did

           7       go backwards but that was after he had fallen onto his

           8       knees.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You virtually put him back in that

          10       way.

          11   A.  Yes.  I believe he would have fallen back that away

          12       eventually anyway --

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The two of you are coming towards

          14       each other --

          15   A.  Exactly.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and the gap is narrowing.  When

          17       he was shot there would have been just a couple of

          18       metres between you and him, probably.

          19   A.  It's very difficult to place exactly where he was in

          20       distance at each shot but certainly he had moved from

          21       his vehicle and I believe that he had been shot both

          22       times by the time he got to three metres, if that makes

          23       sense, the last three metres were him just -- and me

          24       closing on him, yes.

          25           But as I say it was very, very quick and under two


                                            98
 

 

 


           1       seconds, from, I would suggest, when the car stopped to

           2       me actually having hold of him.

           3   MR THOMAS:  So you would say -- forgive me, there's

           4       a question before that and it's this: all the while

           5       where you're closing in and he's closing in on you and

           6       your colleague, V53 -- V53 and you are both moving in

           7       the same direction; would that be right?

           8   A.  I can't account for exactly V53's movements.  I can only

           9       say that my perception was that -- that he was somewhere

          10       in front to the left you, but as -- at some point,

          11       whilst, you know, I've been moving forward, I've

          12       actually passed him.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On your right at the time, did you

          14       notice any of your fellow officers from the Bravo car?

          15   A.  I didn't, no, sir.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You didn't notice them on your

          17       right?

          18   A.  I didn't, notice, no.

          19   MR THOMAS:  Let me just be clear about this: on your version

          20       of events, this half sort of running from Mr Duggan,

          21       Mr Duggan is moving in your direction, correct?

          22   A.  That's correct, yes.

          23   Q.  So that would mean, whether V53 is moving or stationary,

          24       it would mean that Mr Duggan is moving in V53's

          25       direction; do you follow?


                                            99
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  So any suggestion that Mr Duggan was not moving in V53's

           3       direction at the time of the shots, you would say that's

           4       not how I remember it?

           5   A.  That's not my perception, no.

           6   Q.  No.  I wonder if we could show that -- forgive me,

           7       Mr Scott -- the photograph of the trajectories, the one

           8       that we had up earlier today.  Could that be enlarged,

           9       please?  Thank you.

          10           You can see the two red rods going through the

          11       mannequin, correct?

          12   A.  Yes, I can.

          13   Q.  One is horizontal, that's the one under the armpit; can

          14       you see that?

          15   A.  I can, yes.

          16   Q.  The one that enters the chest is at a 45-degree angle

          17       going down; do you see that?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Now, I just want you to help us with this.  Those

          20       trajectories indicate the direction the bullets entered

          21       and passed through Mr Duggan; do you follow?

          22   A.  I do follow, yes.

          23   Q.  Okay.  Now, I just want to come back to your evidence in

          24       relation to Mr Duggan getting out of the car.

          25           He gets out more or less in your direction -- facing


                                           100
 

 

 


           1       you and they be begins this half run in your direction;

           2       do you follow?

           3   A.  Yes.  As I said his side profile has emerged and then

           4       he's pivoted and turned and that is when he has set off.

           5       The initial part of him coming out was very quick and

           6       then the speed with which he's moving has slowly dropped

           7       off, if that makes sense --

           8   Q.  Bear with me, because the question is, it's not your

           9       evidence that he's shot by the door, is it?  It's not

          10       your evidence that Mr Duggan is shot when he just gets

          11       out of the car, is it?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  That's not your evidence?

          14   A.  No, my perception is he had moved away, or towards us,

          15       so away from the door.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Two or three -- two metres perhaps?

          17   A.  A couple of strides.  It was obviously very quick and

          18       I cannot tell you exactly the time but it seemed very,

          19       very -- literally within a couple of strides of that.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He was right in front of you; did

          21       you see his face.

          22   A.  I didn't recall seeing his face.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was his head down?

          24   A.  I can't recall, no.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  One thing you want to notice, as


                                           101
 

 

 


           1       well as everything else, hands and potential gun or

           2       whatever, is the look on his face, I suppose.

           3   A.  I did see his face, sir, but it wasn't really until I --

           4       I didn't register his face until I had got hold of his

           5       hands.

           6   MR THOMAS:  You see, from where you are to where the front

           7       row of the jury is, I am just interested to know whether

           8       Mr Duggan was smiling at you, was he?

           9   A.  I didn't notice any expressions on Mr Duggan's face, no.

          10   Q.  Anyway, come back to the trajectories, if you would,

          11       please.  You see, the -- I am just going to see if I can

          12       help you with some of the science in relation to these

          13       trajectories so you can understand the question I am

          14       going to ask you; do you follow?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  The first trajectory, the one that's horizontal to the

          17       ground, yes, the one under the armpit?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Mr Duggan -- if the shooter, V53, has his gun pointing

          20       in a horizontal direction -- are you with me so far?

          21   A.  I didn't see exactly the direction his gun was pointed

          22       in.

          23   Q.  That's not the question.  Listen to the question.  I am

          24       not asking you whether you saw him, I am just explaining

          25       something to you.  Just follow, if you would.


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           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  If the shooter is horizontal the bullet is are going to

           3       come out in a horizontal direction; do you follow?

           4   A.  Yes sir.

           5   Q.  If the shooter is pointing down, the bullet is going to

           6       go in a downwards direction; do you follow?

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   Q.  Let's just look at these two trajectories and I want to

           9       fit it in with your evidence, if I may.  There's no

          10       suggestion from you, is there, that V53 was in a much

          11       higher position than Mr Duggan?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  No.  Can we just see if we can explain then the -- if

          14       V53 is pointing in a horizontal direction, that the shot

          15       that's going down.  Let's see if we can explain, on your

          16       evidence, just follow me if you would.

          17           One explanation could be if Mr Duggan was stooped;

          18       do you follow?  If he's stooped and the bullet -- if you

          19       imagine the bullet going down, entering near the chest

          20       and coming out down there (indicates).  If you bend --

          21       if he's stooped then that might be an explanation; do

          22       you follow?

          23   A.  Yes, I do, yes.

          24   Q.  Can we just have that up again?

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we were just showing the


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           1       Court 76 your own actions, that's why it came off.

           2   MR THOMAS:  Should I do that again?

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think they've got the picture now,

           4       thank you.

           5   MR THOMAS:  Just to be clear, it's not your evidence, is it,

           6       that when Mark Duggan was shot -- let's assume -- I just

           7       want to run with the suggestion that the first shot was

           8       the chest shot, the one that's going at a downward

           9       angle; do you follow?

          10   A.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  It's not your evidence, is it, that Mark Duggan was

          12       stooped and then got up?  You didn't see that, did you?

          13   A.  I didn't see him move up, no, but he certainly was

          14       stooped when he came out of the minicab then initially

          15       set off.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  More of a sprinting start, wasn't

          17       it, in a way?

          18   A.  Yes, that's a good description.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think you were telling us earlier

          20       on between the two shots you didn't notice yourself any

          21       noticeable change of posture in Mr Duggan?

          22   A.  For whatever reason I just became a bit unaware of what

          23       happened to him.  The next time I'm conscious of his

          24       body position is when he's like this (indicates) and

          25       already on his way down to his knees.


                                           104
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  I do want to test that part of your evidence.

           2       I think you have just accepted that you don't see

           3       Mr Duggan from a stooped position coming up because

           4       that's the only way, I would suggest, that would make

           5       sense of the horizontal shot under his arm: he gets shot

           6       in the chest and then rises up; do you follow?

           7   A.  I do follow, yes.

           8   Q.  You don't see that happening?

           9   A.  I didn't see that, no.

          10   Q.  What would make sense, on your evidence, is he's first

          11       shot from his sprinting stance, under the arm and, on

          12       your account, he's going forward.  That would explain

          13       the second shot; do you follow?

          14   A.  I'm not sure I do follow, sir, sorry.  Just let me see

          15       if I get this right.  I thought that the one -- the

          16       chest shot --

          17   Q.  If you point to the top screen so we can see it?

          18   A.  As I understand it, you mean that the chest shot

          19       comes down and this one would require him to be stood

          20       up.

          21   Q.  Correct.

          22   A.  I thought you said it was the other way round when you

          23       just gave an explanation.

          24   Q.  No, you've got it right.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm concerned that the witness is


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           1       a witness of fact and he's not here as an expert.

           2       I know you're putting this to him and I have not

           3       interrupted you yet but really I don't think you can

           4       take it much further.

           5   MR THOMAS:  Your evidence is, if I can summarise it, and you

           6       can correct me if I've got this wrong: at no time when

           7       you hear the shots do you see Mark Duggan, after one

           8       shot, come into an upright position?

           9   A.  No, I don't.  As I said, the next time I'm aware --

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Or going he doesn't see any change,

          11       no sort of change of posture.  That's his evidence and

          12       that's it.

          13   MR THOMAS:  I'm going to move on.

          14           Can we have your plan up, please, the plan that you

          15       marked.  Can you just help us with this: from your clear

          16       and unobstructed view of Mark Duggan, could you see W42,

          17       the officer who got shot?

          18   A.  I couldn't clearly see where he was.  I was vaguely

          19       aware that there were -- an officer was beyond Mark

          20       Duggan.

          21   Q.  Using your plan, from your vague awareness, can you give

          22       us an indication as to where that officer was?

          23   A.  I couldn't.  Only to say that he would have certainly

          24       been to the left --

          25   Q.  Could you stand up and point to the screen?


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           1   A.  It would have been somewhere in this area here

           2       (indicates).  But I cannot be specific around where he

           3       was.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  To the left of "subject", where you

           5       have written "subject"?

           6   A.  Correct, yes.

           7   MR THOMAS:  Who did you travel back to the police station

           8       with?

           9   A.  With -- V -- sorry, yes, V53 and two PCs who came to

          10       collect us who were not involved in the operation.

          11   Q.  The only two officers so far that we've heard in the

          12       evidence that we've heard who see the gun, you and V53,

          13       you both travel back to the police station in the same

          14       car; is that right?

          15   A.  Sir, at the time I wasn't aware that I was the only

          16       person other than V53 to see the gun.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's his comment.  But the two of

          18       you travelled back, with other officers who were not

          19       anything to do with the incident --

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- who had come to collect you and

          22       took you back to Leman Street.

          23   A.  Correct, yes.

          24   MR THOMAS:  Remember that thing I put on the shelf, your

          25       account.  I'm taking it off the shelf now.  The account


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           1       that you gave to Scott Ingram, your solicitor at the

           2       police station; can we come to that now, please?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  We now have a copy of that account that you gave to --

           5       this is the solicitor's note of what you said.  Did you

           6       get an opportunity to read that after he made the note

           7       or not?

           8   A.  No, sir.  I did -- I was made aware that he had made

           9       notes some time ago.  But it was not after the evening

          10       in question.

          11   Q.  No.  My question is: did you ever approve this note?

          12   A.  Today?

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, no, at the time, I think.

          14   A.  I can't remember seeing it at the time, no.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- in relation to the notebook entry

          16       that we've seen, when in relation to that did this

          17       conversation take place with Mr Ingram?

          18   A.  It was some time before -- the consultation --

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Long before or --

          20   A.  I could refer to my notes.  It may have time in there,

          21       I don't suggest it definitely will but it may have

          22       a time within my statement?

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If it does I'm sure we'll be told

          24       but you can't be very precise about that.  Some time

          25       before you made your statement --


                                           108
 

 

 


           1   A.  It was, yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- you had this conversation.  You

           3       were aware that the solicitor was writing things down

           4       but at no stage were you asked to look at that note

           5       yourself and approve it or sign it or anything like

           6       that.

           7   A.  If I was not, I can't recall, sir, no.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right, thank you?

           9   MR THOMAS:  Do you have a copy of it there.

          10   A.  I do, yes.

          11   Q.  Just follow it -- in fact, I wonder if the jury could be

          12       given copies if there are copies?

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just indicate what is available.  As

          14       I understand it, there's some handwritten notes from the

          15       solicitor, which are about a page in length, that have

          16       been now typed up; is that right?

          17           Those three pages -- thank you very much, Mr Stern,

          18       for this -- is available now and the jury can have those

          19       three pages and they can be put into the jury bundle.

          20   MR STERN:  Sir, may I suggest the jury write on it:

          21       "Mr Ingram's note" so in other words they know whose

          22       note it is because it has not actually got his name on

          23       it.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You all have it?  Put it behind the

          25       next divider, which I think is going to be 16 or have we


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           1       gone further than that.

           2   MR STERN:  17.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll put it behind C17.  As with

           4       all these documents, members of the jury, they are for

           5       you to write on them.  Copies are for your use alone and

           6       after all this is over they will all be destroyed

           7       confidentially so you don't need to worry what you do

           8       write on them.

           9           But, as Mr Stern has just said, you get the straight

          10       impression that it's W70 because his number is on the

          11       top there so there are no problems with that.  The

          12       handwriting is of Mr Scott Ingram who is a solicitor,

          13       a Federation solicitor, he's actually in court, I think,

          14       behind Mr Stern and that's his handwriting.  So just in

          15       case you want to know that, that's the information that

          16       we have.

          17

          18   MR STERN:  For the record, he's not a Police Federation

          19       solicitor.  Slater & Gordon is the firm.  I am sure he's

          20       not offended.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sure he will forgive me for

          22       misdescribing him.

          23           You should have three sheets, two handwriting and

          24       then the typed version of it, just so the jury get that

          25       and write down Mr Ingram's name on the handwriting.


                                           110
 

 

 


           1       You, W70, have had an opportunity today, have you not,

           2       before coming into the witness box this afternoon, of

           3       being able to see that?

           4   A.  I have, yes, sir, yes.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.  So you'll be able to answer

           6       questions about that if asked by Mr Thomas.

           7   MR THOMAS:  First question: was this a conversation that you

           8       had with Mr Ingram with just you and Mr Ingram or was

           9       anybody else present?

          10   A.  No, it was just the two of us.

          11   Q.  Secondly: having seen the note and been able to refresh

          12       your memory, do you say it's a true and accurate account

          13       of what you told Mr Ingram?

          14   A.  Yes, it is, yes.

          15   Q.  Let's look at the account, shall we?  You can see that

          16       it's a relatively brief account, would you agree?

          17   A.  It is.

          18   Q.  I will come back to the point I asked you earlier: why

          19       didn't you put -- if you were able to put a relatively

          20       brief account out, why didn't you put that in your

          21       initial account?

          22   A.  I think that I alluded to it earlier in that, having

          23       given this account my solicitor, he told me that the

          24       Manual of Guidance sets out that you should not do

          25       a detailed account within 48 hours and that, because


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           1       I hadn't, used force it wasn't relevant for me to put

           2       that level of detail in there and I should wait until

           3       that 48 hours was up.

           4   Q.  So your solicitor told you not to put this level of

           5       detail in your first account?

           6   A.  The advice I was given was exactly what I have just

           7       said.

           8   Q.  Come on, you understood the question.  It's a yes or no.

           9       You gave this account to your solicitor.  Are you saying

          10       that your solicitor told you not to put this level of

          11       detail in your first account; do you understand the

          12       question?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Answer it, please.

          15   A.  Yes, that's correct, he told me to only put a brief

          16       precis or a duty statement, you know --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In the way that we see it.

          18   A.  Yes, that was the advice I was given.

          19   MR THOMAS:  Next question: did you understand what he meant

          20       "by this level of detail"?

          21   A.  As it was explained to me, that if I had used force then

          22       it would be important for me to say so and justify that

          23       force.  But as I hadn't used force, then I should not

          24       put any detail in there until 48 hours later.

          25   Q.  Yes, but can I just be clear on this: "this level of


                                           112
 

 

 


           1       detail I shouldn't use", okay, did you seek

           2       clarification from your solicitor as to what he meant by

           3       this level of detail?  Because the obvious thing that is

           4       missing from your initial account is the fact that you

           5       say you saw a gun.

           6   A.  Sorry, I cannot remember exactly whether he said not

           7       this level of detail, I cannot remember the exact advice

           8       I was given but I know I was told that, had I used

           9       force, I would be doing a much more detailed statement.

          10       But as I hadn't used force I should leave that until

          11       48 hours later.

          12   Q.  Were you told to leave the gun out?

          13   A.  I can't remember specifically if I was told to leave or

          14       add any -- or advised to add anything.  I just remember

          15       that I was advised to leave my detailed account until

          16       48 hours later because I had not used force.

          17   Q.  Sorry, you have said that four times now.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's probably because you asked

          19       the question four times.

          20           Let me assist, W70, I think it might help.  This

          21       note, as we see of the conversation, and as we then know

          22       you then write the short statement, 4 August, which you

          23       complete and have it time stamped.

          24           As you're writing your very short statement, and

          25       putting it into the book, were you getting any advice or


                                           113
 

 

 


           1       direction from the solicitor at that stage or were you

           2       doing what you wanted to do having had the advice from

           3       him?

           4   A.  No, there was no advice whilst we were writing our

           5       notes.  As I say, the only real thing you've got to go

           6       off is the Manual of Guidance and the fact that we have

           7       this post-incident procedure input which does give us

           8       a general idea of what we should be putting in there.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's not a question about someone

          10       over your shoulder watching what you're writing into

          11       your notebook?

          12   A.  No, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're choosing what to put in --

          14   A.  That's correct, yes.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- consequent on advice given?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          18   MR THOMAS:  You could have chosen to put the gun in.

          19   A.  Well, that would have been contrary to the advice I was

          20       given and, seeing as I had not been involved in a fatal

          21       shooting before, I considered that it was probably best

          22       for me to follow the advice I was given and the Manual

          23       of Guidance.

          24   Q.  May I ask you this.  This was the first hard stop that

          25       you were involved in; is that right?


                                           114
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct, vehicle stop, yes.  I had been involved

           2       in pedestrian stops before but --

           3   Q.  Vehicle stop.  Would this be fair?  Out of all the other

           4       officers, certainly officers we have heard from so far

           5       on this Inquest, you would have been the most junior?

           6   A.  Yes, that's probably pretty fair, yes.

           7   Q.  Is there any particular reason why you ended up in the

           8       same vehicle as the shooter on the way back to the

           9       police station, as compared to some of your other

          10       colleagues, or was that just coincidence?

          11   A.  The only thing I can think of is we both carried out

          12       first aid chest compressions and I believe the team

          13       leader wanted to get us away for showers, et cetera,

          14       that's the only thing.

          15   Q.  We heard from another officer yesterday who carried out

          16       first aid he didn't go back in the vehicle with you.

          17   A.  As I say, sir, that's the only explanation as to why we

          18       ended up in the same vehicle.

          19   Q.  I just dealt with that.  That cannot be the reason

          20       because we heard if another officer yesterday who dealt

          21       with first aid and didn't go in the same vehicle.  So

          22       that can't be the reason.  Is there another reason why

          23       you end up in the same vehicle as the shooter and both

          24       of you say you saw a gun?

          25   A.  I think the Manual of Guidance says we should not be


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           1       separated unless there's specific reasons, so at the

           2       time we didn't consider we shouldn't go back in the

           3       vehicle together.  It didn't occur to us that we should

           4       perhaps separate, if that's what you're suggesting.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Anyway you were taking directions

           6       from other officers at the time to go back --

           7   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- to Leman Street?

           9   MR THOMAS:  You see, was there any doubt in your mind that

          10       two shots had been fired?

          11   A.  I was very clear in my mind that there was two shots.

          12   Q.  Everything you've told us about perceptual distortion,

          13       that didn't really apply to you because you were clear

          14       in your mind there had only been two shots?

          15   A.  I think where the perceptional distortion comes in is to

          16       make sure you don't make a mistake.  It doesn't matter

          17       whether you feel you're clear, it's to take that

          18       48 hours to allow you to settle and for you to be able

          19       to create a coherent and accurate framework of evidence,

          20       not just, you know, for no reason at all.

          21   Q.  May I suggest this, and you tell me if this is right or

          22       wrong: the one thing you didn't have, by the time you

          23       came to write your first account, was V53's account.

          24       You didn't know what V53 would be saying, did you?

          25   A.  No, I didn't know.


                                           116
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Is the real reason why you delay writing the detail is

           2       because you wanted to ensure that you knew what V53

           3       would be saying and you wouldn't know that until the 7th

           4       when you all sat down together?

           5   A.  No, that's correct -- that's not correct because at no

           6       point did I discuss with V53 -- you know, that just

           7       didn't happen.

           8   Q.  You wanted to wait for an opportunity where all of you

           9       were together, as you were -- you accept you were all

          10       all together on the 7th?

          11   A.  I'm not sure that V53 was there during the time we wrote

          12       our force of use (?) notes.  Don't quote me on that but

          13       I don't know if he was --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At the time you wrote your what,

          15       sorry?

          16   A.  Our notes when we were doing -- explaining our use of

          17       force -- sorry, around the actual stop itself, so when

          18       force was used, I'm not sure that V53 was there.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He was there when you did the

          20       witness statement on 7 August, was he, on the Monday?

          21   A.  He was, but I do have a vague recollection that he may

          22       have gone and done his notes somewhere else in a room on

          23       his own around the point that we got to the stop going

          24       in.  I don't know if it's been explained how we did our

          25       notes.


                                           117
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We have had some evidence but I am

           2       not going to stop you.  If you want to tell us, you tell

           3       us.

           4   A.  Essentially, when we got together on the 7th, there was

           5       a flip chart put out -- I'm sure you have been told

           6       this, but -- and essentially we would go through up to

           7       a point everyone would write their evidence and then

           8       more stuff would go onto the flip chart so that we all

           9       had the same sort of framework around the sequence of

          10       events, the times, dates, places, et cetera.  Then when

          11       everyone had done that bit we would start again but I'm

          12       pretty certain V53 may have gone to a separate room when

          13       we actually did our notes around the stop going in but,

          14       as I say, that's just a vague recollection.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          16   MR THOMAS:  This is your vague recollection so many years

          17       afterwards, that V53 suddenly got up and left the room;

          18       is that what you are saying?

          19   A.  As I say, it is a vague recollection.  I can't be sure,

          20       he may have been there, but I think he went and did that

          21       portion of our evidence in a separate room.

          22   Q.  In any event, by 7 August you and your colleagues knew

          23       how many shots had been accounted for from V53's weapon;

          24       that is correct, isn't it?

          25   A.  I can't remember exactly how that -- who became aware of


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           1       what in that respect.  But I certainly was adamant in my

           2       mind that it was two shots on the day, on the 4th.

           3   Q.  No, that's not the question I asked you.  The question

           4       I asked you was: by 7 August, you knew, from a count of

           5       the ammunition, that V53 had fired two shots?

           6   A.  I don't know how I -- I can't remember being told about

           7       that.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were not told about the count of

           9       ammunition, counting back.

          10   A.  No.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You obviously went through the

          12       process yourself with your own guns and ammunition and

          13       you hadn't fired anything.  That's all you can tell us.

          14   A.  No, that's correct.

          15   MR THOMAS:  That's all the questions I'm going to ask.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Anyone else

          17       from the family team?  No.

          18           Let's just see, Ms Le Fevre?

          19   MS LE FEVRE:  No, thank you, sir.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

          21   MR BUTT:  No.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson, no.

          23           No one from SOCA?

          24           Right then, Mr Stern?

          25                      Questions by MR STERN


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           1   MR STERN:  Thank you, sir.

           2           First of all, as you have told us, you were not

           3       involved in Operation Dibri before this day?

           4   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           5   Q.  You had no prior knowledge of Mark Duggan?

           6   A.  None whatsoever, no.

           7   Q.  Had there been any discussion prior to this date about

           8       a gun in a sock or anything like that, on this occasion

           9       in relation to this briefing and this day?

          10   A.  I can't recall personally receiving that information,

          11       no.

          12   Q.  You had not been on duty on 3 August, the day before?

          13   A.  That's correct, yes.

          14   Q.  I want to ask you about your statement.  You have

          15       referred to some of the passages that were relevant to

          16       the particular point you were asked about.

          17           Could we look, please, at CS143 -- I beg your

          18       pardon, 142, sorry.  If we look at the bottom of the

          19       page, you're describing shouting "Armed police, stand

          20       still"; yes?

          21   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  Do you recall whether other people were shouting that or

          23       are you not aware of that?

          24   A.  Yes, I think everyone was shouting that.

          25   Q.  Then you say:


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           1           "It appeared that his left hand was in his pocket of

           2       the jacket or holding the left hand lower zip part of

           3       the jacket ..."

           4           This is your statement of 7 August, yes?

           5   A.  That's correct, yes.

           6   Q.  At this stage, we now know -- because the jacket has

           7       just been pointed out to you when you were giving

           8       evidence to Mr Underwood -- that the holes in the jacket

           9       are, first of all, on the inside of the lower part, then

          10       through the outside and then through a hole roughly here

          11       (indicates).  Then that matches up with the bullet entry

          12       wound just above the right nipple here (indicates).

          13           When was the first that you knew that there was

          14       forensic evidence or expert evidence dealing with that

          15       jacket?  I don't mean exactly but in the last period of

          16       time: months, weeks?

          17   A.  It was only prior to this Inquest, if you like.  I'm not

          18       sure of, as I say, the exact date but I wasn't aware of

          19       it at the previous criminal trials that were involved in

          20       this case.

          21   Q.  So you gave evidence at the trial of

          22       Mr Hutchinson-Foster on two occasions and you were not

          23       aware of the position in relation to it at that stage?

          24   A.  I wasn't, no.

          25   Q.  Right.  Does it follow that you certainly weren't aware


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           1       on 7 August when you made this statement?

           2   A.  Absolutely not, no.

           3   Q.  Just following down, please, the statement.  You say:

           4           "It very much appeared to me that he was concealing

           5       something within his jacket in his right hand.  I felt

           6       very much at risk and thought I was in danger as this

           7       male was believed to be in possession of a firearm.

           8       I already had my hand on my pistol grip of my Glock with

           9       the intention of drawing it and pointing it at the

          10       male ..."

          11           You then describe a part that Mr Thomas skipped over

          12       and I just want to ask you about this:

          13           "As the subject set off in a sort of half run

          14       towards me I saw him very quickly pull his right hand up

          15       and out of his jacket and he was holding by the pistol

          16       grip on his SLP (self-loading pistol).  I remember

          17       thinking I was in serious trouble if I couldn't get my

          18       Glock out and get a shot of (off) very quickly.  I had

          19       a surge of adrenaline similar to when you have a near

          20       miss on a motorcycle as if someone suddenly pulls out in

          21       front of you.  At this point I was only 3 metres or so

          22       away from the subject and almost instantaneously I heard

          23       two shots from my left which I believed came from V53

          24       who was up in the aim with his MP5."

          25           Let me ask you this because I do not think you have


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           1       been asked it.  What was your threat assessment in

           2       relation to Mr Duggan at that point?

           3   A.  As he's drawn the gun my threat assessment was that it

           4       was an imminent threat to life because he was drawing

           5       that weapon in order to fire it at us.

           6   Q.  Had you had your Glock out of your holster, what would

           7       you have done?

           8   A.  I believe based on what I saw, that I would have fired.

           9       Obviously it's hypothetical but I believe that I would

          10       have fired.

          11   Q.  In fact, if one looks at CS150, you talk about, in the

          12       last paragraph -- just above the last paragraph, you say

          13       you believed:

          14           "... what I believe to be a handgun in an aggressive

          15       manner in what I believe was a precursor to him shooting

          16       at me and my colleagues.

          17           "My threat assessment changed very rapidly but had

          18       I been pointing a firearm at the male when I saw the

          19       weapon I believe I would have fired based on a honest

          20       held belief formed from information received about the

          21       male's possession of a firearm, his actions and

          22       non-compliance and the fact he produced a pistol shaped

          23       object from his waistband/jacket, I believed there was

          24       an imminent threat to the life of my colleagues and

          25       myself."


                                           123
 

 

 


           1           That is what you wrote in the statement, do you

           2       agree with that in your evidence today or not?

           3   A.  I do, yes, sir, obviously, the events unfolded very very

           4       quickly in front of my eyes and, for want of a better

           5       word, there was only a very, very short period of

           6       opportunity from which it would have been appropriate

           7       for me to fire but had I been pointing my gun at him at

           8       that time as I saw him draw that weapon out of the

           9       waistband, I believe I would have fired.

          10   Q.  You say it happened very quickly and I think in the

          11       statement of 7 August you actually put a timeframe on

          12       the whole event.  If we look at CS143, halfway down the

          13       page, there's the words:

          14           "I estimate ..."

          15           Obviously it is an estimate.  I think you can see

          16       that there on the screen:

          17           "I estimate the time from when I deployed from

          18       Charlie car [the car behind the minicab] to the point

          19       where I had the subject restrained on his back holding

          20       his wrists to be no longer than 2 seconds."

          21   A.  That is correct, yes.

          22   Q.  Obviously everyone appreciates that time is quite

          23       difficult and an estimate is an estimate.  Was it your

          24       perception then that it was that sort of length of time,

          25       that sort of order that we are talking about?


                                           124
 

 

 


           1   A.  It was indeed, it was very, very quick.

           2   Q.  Just a little further up on that page, when you describe

           3       following the shots, that you saw the subject stumble

           4       and double over and feathers exploded from his jacket,

           5       that all happened at the same time, did it, pretty much?

           6   A.  Yes, exactly that.

           7   Q.  Then you grab both his wrists, then you describe he was

           8       clutching his chest, falling, stumbling on his knees and

           9       I pushed him onto his back.  Then you say:

          10           "I started shouting at him 'Where's the gun?'"

          11           When you say "shouting", again, what sort of level

          12       of shout are we talking about?

          13   A.  Well, obviously, it would not have been top of the voice

          14       because the person I'm saying it to is a foot and a half

          15       away from me, so it was certainly a raised voice but it

          16       was not a bellow, if you like.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you shout out before then "He's

          18       got a gun" to anyone.

          19   A.  To be honest with you, sir, there was absolutely no

          20       time.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're shouting out "Armed police,

          22       stand still" -- "he's got a gun"?

          23   A.  I think I was saying "Armed police" throughout the whole

          24       episode, if you like.  By the time I got to the end of

          25       "Armed police" I think it was probably all over, do you


                                           125
 

 

 


           1       see what I mean.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It probably takes you two seconds to

           3       say "Armed police", which is the whole of your time

           4       estimate.  Are you sure that two seconds is right?

           5   A.  It was as quick as that, sir, yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.

           7   MR STERN:  Just coming back to this point, please, you say:

           8           "I started shouting at him 'Where's the gun'.  He

           9       was totally unresponsive and limp but I was convinced

          10       that I would find a gun either on him or under him."

          11           Is that right?

          12   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  If we look a little further on:

          14           "I quickly searched visually his front and then

          15       turned him on his front keeping control of his right

          16       hand and arm."

          17           Does that refresh your memory of an arm lock?

          18   A.  Yes.  It's difficult because, at some point, I think

          19       another officer joined me and assisted me with searching

          20       so I cannot remember the exact sequence of how we

          21       searched.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But there's a time when Mr Duggan

          23       virtually was on his front then and you are holding him

          24       in what might appear to others to look like an arm lock.

          25   A.  Exactly that, yes.


                                           126
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But, as you already told us, you

           2       realised then he didn't need that much restraining at

           3       all because he was somewhat limp.

           4   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I just ask about that because

           6       the jury did send a question to me about, at this stage,

           7       when you're doing your searching for danger, anything

           8       that could be dangerous, ie the gun or anything of that

           9       nature, what do you actually do?  What did you actually

          10       search?

          11   A.  Well, initially it would be just his front to make sure

          12       that it wasn't lying on top of him or obviously in

          13       a pocket or in a belt, or anything like that, and then

          14       turn over, (a) to check that it's not concealed within

          15       any clothing, but also just to check he's not lying on

          16       top of it.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you searched in the pocket of the

          18       jacket, did you?

          19   A.  Not within them but certainly you would feel because

          20       obviously a gun is a fairly substantial object, you can

          21       feel through clothes.  But certainly everything gets

          22       checked.  Because you can't find it, you keep searching

          23       further and further until a point where you think "Well,

          24       actually, it's not here so we'll start first aid".

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Obviously, we'll hear, just


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           1       answering the jury's next question, about what was in

           2       the pockets and things of that nature in due course, but

           3       certainly that's what you were doing, patting down,

           4       search around to see if you could find the bulky object,

           5       which would be the gun that you had believed you saw.

           6   A.  That's correct, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right, thank you.  Thank you

           8       Mr Stern, sorry about that.

           9   MR STERN:  Not at all.  I was glad of the time because I was

          10       looking for something.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I noticed!

          12   MR STERN:  You've described Mark Duggan as having a gun in

          13       his hand, and pulling it up in his elbow as you have

          14       described it.  If the gun got -- have you seen the gun

          15       at all?

          16   A.  I've seen photographs of it in the criminal trial but

          17       I've never seen it.

          18   Q.  Do those photographs accord with your recollection of

          19       what you saw?

          20   A.  It -- it's a -- obviously you can see the shape of it.

          21       It's a very L-shaped self-loading pistol.  That is all

          22       I could really tell.  I couldn't tell that it was in

          23       a sock or that there was -- I couldn't see a muzzle or

          24       a -- any kind of trigger mechanism or anything.  All

          25       I saw was that it was a gun-shaped object.


                                           128
 

 

 


           1   Q.  We do have some further photographs.  I do not think

           2       they have actually been given to the jury, although they

           3       have been referred to.  I was wondering --

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In the original bundle there are

           5       some photographs of the gun in the grass.  You yourself

           6       never saw it, of course --

           7   A.  Not on the grass.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and you have actually never seen

           9       it since either.

          10   MR STERN:  It may be we haven't made copies, 19C.  Do you

          11       have copies?  There we go.

          12           We can see in that photograph the minicab and the

          13       narrowness of the pavement, and we can see the wall and

          14       the railings just in the bottom left-hand corner.

          15           If we look at 19E, we can see, if we perhaps can

          16       zoom in a little bit -- I don't know if we can -- we can

          17       see that there's what I think turned out to be

          18       a cannabis plant and a box which marks where the gun was

          19       actually found, all right?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  I think you became aware of the fact that a gun had been

          22       found.

          23           If we look at 19G, we can see, if we can perhaps

          24       zoom in a bit -- that's much better, that's very good,

          25       thank you -- we can see where -- we probably don't want


                                           129
 

 

 


           1       to go too near because I think the HEMS people are

           2       there, the doctors have arrived, so we don't want to go

           3       too near.  But we can see, obviously, where Mark Duggan

           4       is being worked on by the medical team and we can see

           5       roughly where the gun ended up.

           6           Now, if the gun was in Mark Duggan's possession in

           7       his right hand, and ended up in the position that we can

           8       see the cannabis plant on that picture, would that have

           9       to have gone in front of anyone who was on that pavement

          10       facing him?

          11   A.  In terms of passing across the path?

          12   Q.  Yes.

          13   A.  Well, I would have expected it to go in front of myself,

          14       looking at that -- myself, V53 and potentially W42 from

          15       the other direction, as it were.

          16   Q.  Yes.  I'm talking about the actual arm pointing the gun

          17       would have to go in front of you and then obviously let

          18       go at whatever point it was let go?

          19   A.  That would make sense.  I mean --

          20   Q.  You didn't see the gun being released from Mark Duggan's

          21       hand?

          22   A.  No, I didn't, no.

          23   Q.  Obviously -- I say obviously, I assume most people have

          24       not heard what shots are like out in the street.  But

          25       did the shots have any affect in your hearing or in any


                                           130
 

 

 


           1       of your vision or anything like that, because we have

           2       heard from one officer who said he was affected by it.

           3   A.  I do not think I was conscious that I did anything at

           4       the time but certainly it was very loud.  I do recall it

           5       being very loud because when we train we obviously use

           6       hearing protection and then -- and generally you're

           7       stood behind someone for safety reasons when they're

           8       firing.  But in this instance I was kind of going past

           9       so it was literally feet from my head and it compared

          10       with how you get used to it in training, it's

          11       exceptionally loud.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But nevertheless you carried on

          13       acting and got hold of him by the hands.

          14   A.  I did, yes, sir.

          15   MR STERN:  Are you aware of the ACPO manual 7.97, which

          16       deals with a person --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We talk about little else, I'm

          18       afraid.

          19   MR STERN:  I won't put it because it's getting just a little

          20       bit --

          21   A.  I am aware of it, sir, yes.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have seen the transcript?

          23   MR STERN:  We have looked at it.  Let me just try to

          24       summarise it rather than read the whole thing.  But

          25       a person involved in a traumatic or life threatening


                                           131
 

 

 


           1       encounter often experiences a range of physiological and

           2       psychological responses.  The effect of that, I think,

           3       is that -- that is the thinking behind people giving

           4       their account 48 hours later; is what your understanding

           5       of that?

           6   A.  That is, yes.

           7   Q.  Is that something that you have abided by in your police

           8       service?

           9   A.  Well, I've only been involved in this one fatal shooting

          10       so I've only had the opportunity to go through the

          11       process once but, yes, in that process, I did.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You've only been -- we know that

          13       this is your first hard stop.  You have not had to go

          14       through the process of giving a short statement either

          15       before or after this incident, or a longer one?

          16   A.  No, just that one time.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This is the one time.

          18   MR STERN:  Can I just ask you, because your credibility has

          19       been challenged, I do not want to get into too much

          20       detail because you have been granted anonymity, but are

          21       you between the ages of 35 and 40?

          22   A.  I am, yes.

          23   Q.  Did you graduate in 2001?

          24   A.  Yes, it was.

          25   Q.  You joined the police, I think, in 2004 and then in 2007


                                           132
 

 

 


           1       became an Authorised Firearms Officer, as you told the

           2       jury before, as part of the Diplomatic Protection Group?

           3   A.  That's correct, yes.

           4   Q.  Then in 2009 you were on the armed response vehicles.

           5   A.  That's --

           6   Q.  The jury have heard about that.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  2011, you joined the TST, and I think you had only been

           9       there four months when this incident happened, or

          10       thereabouts?

          11   A.  That's correct, yes.

          12   Q.  Then since then -- I think in 2012 -- you have since

          13       done the assessment and become a Specialist Firearms

          14       Officer?

          15   A.  That's correct, yes.

          16   Q.  You have left the TST and you are now a Specialist

          17       Firearms Officer?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  When in 2012 was that?

          20   A.  I passed the course in March 2012.

          21   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Underwood?

          23                Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Only one thing.  You were asked about the

          25       hypothetical possibility that you would be able to get


                                           133
 

 

 


           1       your Glock out or you had had your Glock in your hand

           2       and asked whether you would have got a shot off, which

           3       is how it was put in your statement.  If you had managed

           4       to shoot Mr Duggan, would you have fired a second shot

           5       without assessing whether he still presented a risk, in

           6       your view?

           7   A.  No, you would always assess for each shot.

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you.  That's all I ask.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  Thank you very much then, W70.

          10       That does complete your evidence.  So in a moment or two

          11       I'm able to discharge you from further attendance.

          12       Please do not discuss the case, until it's all over and

          13       done with, with anyone else who are yet to give

          14       evidence.  Thank you very much.  If you would like to go

          15       then with the people looking after you --

          16   A.  Thank you, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and we'll decide what's going to

          18       happen to this court now.

          19                      (The witness withdrew)

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  We have got W42 here.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We can have a short break for those

          22       in front of me and then we could certainly do half

          23       an hour or so this afternoon, if everyone is content

          24       with that.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think I could deal with all the questions


                                           134
 

 

 


           1       I have for him in that time.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then we'll do that.  Could I just

           3       mention, in the presence of the jury, we're nearly --

           4       I think every witness who's come from the cars (?) list,

           5       and I know we have it in the jury bundle and we've been

           6       working through them, their accounts -- their first

           7       account they gave on 4 August has been read out in full.

           8       The core of their witness statements that they have made

           9       on 7 August is put up on the screen and read out in

          10       full, and other things have been done.  It just seems to

          11       me to reassure the jury they don't have to write all

          12       that down, that in due course what I will be proposing

          13       to do, because it has all been read out so it's there on

          14       the transcript, is we could have a short bundle with the

          15       bits that have been read out, the core accounts given by

          16       each witness in those earlier statements available for

          17       the jury in due course.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Certainly.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you will have that, as well as

          20       everything else.  I don't want you to think that's the

          21       only chance you will get of seeing those accounts being

          22       read out to the witnesses, because it has all been put

          23       before you fully.  So we will be able to work out

          24       something certainly about that.

          25           How many more witnesses do we have in relation to


                                           135
 

 

 


           1       the occupants of the four cars?

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  I believe only W56.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  W42 and then W56?

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Exactly, who is, I hope, coming tomorrow.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That will then conclude those core

           6       anonymised witnesses.

           7           All right, members of the jury, that's what's in

           8       store for you.  So I would ask you to leave us for five

           9       or ten minutes and then we'll just do another half

          10       an hour this evening and then we'll finish at that

          11       point.

          12                   (In the absence of the jury)

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'll rise for a short time.

          14   (3.46 pm)

          15                         (A short break)

          16   (4.01 pm)

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We will just

          18       have the cameras off for a short while, please, while

          19       the jury come in.

          20                  (In the presence of the jury)

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am going to ask for the witness to

          22       come in, please, W42.

          23                           W42 (sworn)

          24                   (The witness was anonymised)

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Thank you very much.  Come


                                           136
 

 

 


           1       forward and have a seat, please, in the witness box

           2       there.

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Once you're comfortable Mr Underwood

           5       will ask you some questions.

           6                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Officer, my name's Underwood

           8       and I'm counsel for the Inquest.  Can I ask you to have

           9       a look at a piece of paper that you are about to be

          10       shown.

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  Look down the list until you find W42.

          13   A.  I have, yes.

          14   Q.  Is that your name against it?

          15   A.  It is, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  Thank you very much.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  I want to ask you about 4 August 2011.

          19       Before we get onto that date, as at August 2011, how

          20       long had you been a police officer?

          21   A.  I had been a police officer for just over nine and

          22       a half years.

          23   Q.  How long had you been in CO19?

          24   A.  I had been in CO19 since 2005, so six years.

          25   Q.  Of that six years, how long of that was in TST?


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           1   A.  Two and a half years serving as TSTs and three and

           2       a half as an ARV.

           3   Q.  In the TST were you second in command?

           4   A.  I was, yes.

           5   Q.  What did that entail?

           6   A.  Second in command was the deputy team leader to

           7       a Sergeant that ran the team.  That took on roles

           8       administration and it took on roles such as the Alpha

           9       operator when we conducted MASTS operations.

          10   Q.  So on 4 August that was your role, was it?

          11   A.  It was, yes.

          12   Q.  How were you armed?

          13   A.  On the day in question, I was armed with my personal

          14       issue Glock 17 SLP, which was loaded and it was covertly

          15       holstered, and I was also armed with my personal issue

          16       MP5 carbine, which was in the footwell of the front seat

          17       passenger, and I had also booked out a Heckler & Koch

          18       G36 carbine, which was loaded and slipped in the boot of

          19       the vehicle.

          20   Q.  Did that leave the boot of the vehicle during the

          21       operation?

          22   A.  It didn't, no, sir.

          23   Q.  Can I take it you know what evidence your fellow

          24       officers have given about the trip to Quicksilver and

          25       what happened at Quicksilver?


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           1   A.  I have, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Do you agree with that evidence?

           3   A.  I do, yes.

           4   Q.  Let's move on then to the position as at state amber.

           5       Whose responsibility was it to go to the next stage

           6       after amber?

           7   A.  The responsibility was my own, sir.  Once amber has been

           8       given over the radio, obviously from the chain of

           9       command of the TFC to the team leader, once that state

          10       amber is given, it's then my responsibility to take

          11       control of the rest of that vehicle stop.

          12   Q.  Was it your responsibility after that to decide when to

          13       call strike?

          14   A.  It is, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  Was there, in theory, a possibility of you handing

          16       control back or deciding not to go from red to strike?

          17   A.  There is the possibility that that could happen.

          18       Generally that would come from the control vehicle, it

          19       would come from the team leader, in that further

          20       intelligence may be gathered and that they decide not to

          21       conduct that vehicle stop.

          22           At state amber, it can be feasible that that can be

          23       done.  At state red, it's still feasible the control

          24       could be handed back to the team leader.  It would be

          25       very difficult upon the next stage of calling the


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           1       strike, however, that that could be handed back over.

           2   Q.  Not this case, but let's just look at possibilities to

           3       see what pressure you were under.  Let's imagine that

           4       there's a MASTS operation in which red is called, so

           5       it's up to you to call strike next and, let's say, the

           6       subject vehicle stops and the subject walks away; what

           7       do you do?

           8   A.  If someone were to, for example, get out of a vehicle --

           9       are you saying it's state red?

          10   Q.  Yes.

          11   A.  If someone got out of the vehicle and it was identified

          12       that that was say the subject in question due to

          13       descriptions given, et cetera, then I would still call

          14       strike at that point.

          15   Q.  What happens if there's simply nowhere that you consider

          16       safe to put the stop in?  Do you just keep going until

          17       something else happens, like the thing is called off or

          18       the vehicle stops and the man gets out, or what?

          19   A.  For example, sir, it has happened before that we have,

          20       on previous occasions, followed vehicles that, yes, that

          21       example has happened, that there is nowhere safe to do

          22       it due to parked cars on either side of the street and

          23       it has got to the point that you have followed the

          24       vehicle until it has come to a natural stop and, at that

          25       point, we actually have -- or I have in the past called


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           1       a strike then myself.  There is some times that you have

           2       no choice but to follow that vehicle until it comes to

           3       a natural stop.

           4   Q.  Here, your intelligence was that the subject vehicle was

           5       heading towards Broadwater Farm, wasn't it?

           6   A.  That's correct, yes.

           7   Q.  Again, let's look at possibilities so the jury can

           8       understand what, if any, pressure you were under.

           9           If nowhere safe had been found for you to call

          10       strike on the way to Broadwater Farm, would you have let

          11       the vehicle run into it?

          12   A.  If there had been nowhere safe on the approach, then it

          13       could have come over the radio that -- yes, that might

          14       come back from the control vehicle that we were going to

          15       leave it.  However, had the vehicle continued to the

          16       Broadwater Farm then, yes, that would have been

          17       a possibility, that, had there been nowhere safe, that

          18       might have been the only safest option to follow it all

          19       the way.

          20   Q.  Right.  Let's get to the calling of strike then.

          21           Let's get sequence, first of all.  Did you tell your

          22       driver to go before you called strike or did you call

          23       strike first, so that he heard it?

          24   A.  Tell my driver to go first, so that that's one thing out

          25       of the way and then I can concentrate on getting onto


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           1       the radio and alerting all the other units involved that

           2       this strike is taking place.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What do you say to your driver then?

           4   A.  I think the words I used, sir, were along the lines of,

           5       when it was safe to do so, "Let's do it here".

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then he starts and then you say

           7       "Strike" over the radio?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  I am not suggesting you were delegating

          10       responsibility but, in terms of the actual road safety,

          11       it was left to the driver, was it, to decide when

          12       actually to overtake?

          13   A.  It was, yes.

          14   Q.  Once you started doing that, you called strike for

          15       everyone else to follow?

          16   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  When you made the decision to put it in his hands to

          18       decide when the road safety was right, were you

          19       satisfied that, from your perspective, it was a safe

          20       place to do this?

          21   A.  It was, sir, completely, yes.

          22   Q.  What sort of factors did you have in mind for a safe

          23       place to conduct this sort of stop?

          24   A.  The factors are -- obviously the main one is safety and

          25       there's three areas: safety of the public, the safety


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           1       of, obviously, persons involved, and that involves our

           2       subjects as well, and also the safety of my colleagues.

           3   Q.  So let's get to the point where you call strike.  What

           4       happened then?

           5   A.  Once I called the strike, we were obviously -- the

           6       initiation of the overtake was in place.  The Alpha

           7       vehicle cut in in front of the minicab, I had my window

           8       open and I had the door cracked open as well so I was

           9       keeping it closed just by the handle itself.

          10           The vehicle -- before the Alpha vehicle came to

          11       a stop, when I was happy that it was at a safe pace that

          12       I was able to get feet on the ground, I deployed with my

          13       MP5, with my high visibility baseball cap on and

          14       deployed to the stop.

          15   Q.  Because we don't have the good fortune of having a video

          16       of this, I need to ask you what help you can give us

          17       with this.

          18           Because you were in the Alpha car in the front seat

          19       and because you were prepared to get out while the car

          20       was still moving, do you think you were the first on the

          21       ground of the CO19 officers?

          22   A.  I would say most certainly, yes.

          23   Q.  You had your MP5 ready to fire, did you?

          24   A.  It was -- once I had opened the door, it's a movement

          25       that I've done many times.  As soon as I'm pivoting out


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           1       of the seat towards the vehicle in question, my selector

           2       lever is to fire and my MP5 is brought up into the

           3       off-aim ready.

           4   Q.  We know, of course, that you're trained to do these

           5       stops.  Can you help the jury with what it was you were

           6       intending to do: were you intending to go to the front

           7       nearside, were you intending to assess the situation

           8       generally, or what?

           9   A.  Generally, the first thing to do is get a containment

          10       onto the vehicle in question, which is why it generally

          11       is the Alpha front seat passenger -- I'm normally first

          12       with feet on the ground.

          13           In an ordinary vehicle stop, where (?) it may be

          14       a subject vehicle, the aim is to get the containment

          15       onto the front of that vehicle.  That includes driver

          16       and front seat passenger.  In this instance, then, it

          17       was -- as it was a minicab, my first intention is to get

          18       containment and a point of aim towards the front of the

          19       cab, which I'd done, saw the taxi driver himself, saw he

          20       was posing no threat, and that the containment had been

          21       achieved, in that he was also concentrating on the front

          22       seat passenger of the Bravo vehicle.  I was then --

          23   Q.  Sorry, stop there for a moment.  You think the taxi

          24       driver was looking at the front seat passenger of the

          25       Bravo vehicle, did you?


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           1   A.  I believe so.  That's what I recall, because I didn't

           2       see him taking much notice of myself.

           3   Q.  When you say that, do you mean that the front seat

           4       passenger of the Bravo vehicle was still in his seat or

           5       had he got out and got by the side of the minicab?

           6   A.  I can't recall whether he had got out but I would have

           7       expected him at that stage of the stop with

           8       a containment onto that driver.

           9   Q.  But one way or the other, you were satisfied there was

          10       eye contact between the front seat passenger of Bravo

          11       and the taxi driver?

          12   A.  I was, yes.

          13   Q.  You did what then?

          14   A.  Pretty much within two to three steps, I was on the

          15       pavement and I was onto the nearside of the minicab, and

          16       I was presented with the male I now know to be Mark

          17       Duggan exiting the minicab.

          18   Q.  Let's take this slowly.  Was his passenger door open or

          19       opening or what?

          20   A.  It was to my -- in my recollection it was already open.

          21   Q.  Where was he in relation to the doorway?

          22   A.  If you take the actual doorway of the vehicle as

          23       a normal door itself, I would say he was framed,

          24       although taller than, but he was sort of framed in the

          25       doorway of the sliding door of the minicab.


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           1   Q.  I think a lot of us have tried to get in and out of the

           2       copy of the minicab that we've got and what I think

           3       we've found is that, in order to get out, you tend to

           4       stand on the threshold of it --

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  -- as you manage to wiggle your way between the seats

           7       and then you get on the ground.  Can you help us about

           8       whether he had got on the ground or whether he was in

           9       the threshold?

          10   A.  Initially, I would say he was on the threshold.  Playing

          11       it back in my mind, I do remember sort of thinking --

          12       not really looking at his feet, but his body in question

          13       of how tall he was and, thinking back, that's obviously

          14       how I've described that he was framed in the doorway of

          15       the actual minicab.

          16   Q.  Thank you.  Was he facing outwards, facing towards you,

          17       facing the other way, or what?

          18   A.  He wasn't facing me at all and we never made eye

          19       contact.  He looked to be facing either straight on,

          20       where the fence line was, or basically it was one sweep

          21       of -- from where the fence line was to then the rear of

          22       the minicab.

          23   Q.  So his right arm would have been side on to you, would

          24       it?

          25   A.  His -- yes, his right arm was, yes.


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           1   Q.  Did you see what his right arm was doing?

           2   A.  I saw what his right arm was doing.  It was tucked

           3       inside his jacket with his hand completely out of view.

           4   Q.  Was he stooped at all or standing up?  I mean, you said

           5       he looked tall, was he standing proud?

           6   A.  My recollection is that I think he was.  I think he was

           7       standing as near proud as he could be, obviously with

           8       the height of the top of the frame of the door.

           9   Q.  What did he do?

          10   A.  Once I saw him on the threshold of that door, he then

          11       turned away immediately and made his way towards the

          12       rear of the minicab.

          13   Q.  At what sort of speed?

          14   A.  I've described it as a hurried manner.  It wasn't at

          15       full pace, as I would describe, to try and get out of

          16       that minicab, but it was -- as I described, it was in

          17       a hurried manner.

          18   Q.  Were you concentrating on him?

          19   A.  Completely, yes.

          20   Q.  Did you see a gun fly through the air?

          21   A.  I didn't, sir, no.

          22   Q.  What did you do?

          23   A.  Obviously, having deployed from the vehicle, I have

          24       identified myself as armed police and there's either two

          25       things that I would normally shout then.  If I could see


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           1       both hands, it would be for -- to get on the ground.

           2       But in that instance, because one of the hand was not

           3       visible, my immediate reaction was to shout "Show me

           4       your hands".

           5   Q.  Do you have any other officers in your view?

           6   A.  At that point when he was in the frame of the doorway,

           7       no I didn't.

           8   Q.  When he started to move away in his hurried fashion?

           9   A.  When he pivoted out of the doorway and towards the rear

          10       of the cab, I was then aware of -- the officers from the

          11       other vehicles had feet on the pavement as well.

          12   Q.  Now, we know that the potential is for officers from

          13       Bravo and from Charlie; are you able to say whether it

          14       was officers from both of those cars or from which of

          15       them?

          16   A.  I couldn't say at all, sir, no.

          17   Q.  Roughly where were those officers, on the pavement

          18       behind him?

          19   A.  They were.  Recollection for me, it would have been the

          20       officers from Charlie, just because of the positioning

          21       that I know that they sit in the required vehicle, and

          22       those -- the officers that are deployed -- at least two

          23       of them were on the pavement.

          24   Q.  I keep using the unfortunate front row of the jury as

          25       a reference point but, compared with the distance


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           1       between you and the front row of the jury, how far were

           2       you away from Mr Duggan at the stage when he started his

           3       hurried move?

           4   A.  I would probably say I was the distance -- probably

           5       where the desk is and then the further officers, I would

           6       probably go to just past the second row.

           7   Q.  So all of this was within 20 feet, between you and the

           8       other officers?

           9   A.  Within a sort of vehicle's length, yes, just under.

          10   Q.  As he hurried away, was he still upright or did you see

          11       him crouching?

          12   A.  To be honest with you, I can't recall at what -- his

          13       body sort of height, his movements were then.  I mean,

          14       I had full vision of his back as such.  I was looking

          15       over the top sight of my MP5 so that I had full vision.

          16       But I can't recall how his body was at that time.

          17   Q.  I've asked you if you saw a gun going through the air at

          18       this sort of time, did you see any arm movements?

          19   A.  Yes, when he moved towards the back of the rear of the

          20       minicab and he's turned towards my colleagues, because

          21       of the -- because of not being able to see the right

          22       hand inside his jacket, I've now got tunnel vision, if

          23       you want to call it, towards his body now, excluding

          24       everything else, concentrating solely on the shape of

          25       Mr Duggan in front of me.  What I've then seen is his


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           1       elbow, his right elbow, move out slightly.

           2   Q.  A few inches, do you mean, by that?

           3   A.  It was minimal, yes, a few inches would probably be

           4       correct, but it was enough to make me shout what I did

           5       next.

           6   Q.  Which is?

           7   A.  Which was two shouts of "He's reaching, he's reaching".

           8   Q.  What happened next?

           9   A.  Well, after the shouts of "He's reaching, he's

          10       reaching", I've then heard the two gunshots.

          11   Q.  Right.  As you know, I ask everybody this: was it

          12       a double tap or was there a distance between them?

          13   A.  There was a definite distance between them.

          14   Q.  Were you still moving?

          15   A.  At that point, when I shouted "He's reaching, he's

          16       reaching", no, I had remained stationary.  Thinking that

          17       we had contained this male, he was making a run for it,

          18       with the officers now deploying from the Charlie vehicle

          19       I was still quite content that we had that containment

          20       in place.  So instead of sort of moving towards him,

          21       I stood still to enable that containment to remain in

          22       place, that if he were to turn back towards myself, that

          23       I would still be there rather than the chance that

          24       I could have been on top of him and he could have run

          25       past us, as such.


                                           150
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Right.  We know very well that you were shot.

           2   A.  I was, yes.

           3   Q.  Again, by the time you were shot, had you seen a gun

           4       going through the air?

           5   A.  I didn't, sir, no.

           6   Q.  We all know you were shot and the bullet hit your radio.

           7   A.  It did, yes.

           8   Q.  Can you demonstrate to us where that radio was?

           9   A.  My radio set is in a covert harness which -- the best

          10       way to describe, the strap of which comes over the top

          11       of the shoulder, over my left, and it Velcros round the

          12       opposite side on the right-hand side (indicates).

          13           The radio itself sits -- because it's covert, it's

          14       designed that the harness will sit underneath your

          15       armpit so if your arms were down you cannot see the

          16       radio.

          17   Q.  Underneath your left armpit?

          18   A.  It did, yes.  It covers the area between -- underneath

          19       your armpit and where your body armour actually goes

          20       round the side of your body.

          21   Q.  What clothing were you wearing on your top?

          22   A.  Underneath I was wearing a sort of skin tight neoprene

          23       sweat top, as it's called, just for comfort.  My body

          24       armour and then I think I was wearing a navy blue

          25       t-shirt.


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           1   Q.  Was the radio holster underneath or over the t-shirt?

           2   A.  Underneath the navy blue t-shirt that I was wearing but

           3       it was over my body armour.

           4   Q.  Would it be fair to say that after you got shot your

           5       concentration was on how badly wounded you were?

           6   A.  It was, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  We know you were treated.  Did you know what had

           8       happened?

           9   A.  In essence to myself or the whole incident?

          10   Q.  Did you know who shot you?

          11   A.  I didn't, no.

          12   Q.  We know you received treatment and then you were taken

          13       to hospital.  At any stage during that process did you

          14       learn that a gun had been found in the area?

          15   A.  I hadn't, no.

          16   Q.  I think you went to hospital with W56, did you not?

          17   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  Then back to Leman Street with him?

          19   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          20   Q.  Did you discuss the events of the shooting during that

          21       period?

          22   A.  I didn't, sir, no.  I was left to my, sort of, own

          23       devices as such in the hospital for quite some time

          24       whilst W56 spoke to the hospital staff.  There was some

          25       trouble about how to book me in under my pseudonym,


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           1       which W56 was dealing with, and the only interaction

           2       really I had was from the surgeons, the senior doctors

           3       at the hospital that saw me.

           4   Q.  Did you know that Mr Duggan had been shot?

           5   A.  I did, yes.

           6   Q.  Did you know that he had died?

           7   A.  To this day, my recollection at that time, no I didn't.

           8   Q.  Can I ask you to look at a record taken by the force

           9       medical examiner, it's at CD671.  It'll come up on the

          10       screen.  According to this, you saw her somewhere

          11       between 22.50 and 22.58 that evening; is that right?

          12   A.  Yes, that is correct.

          13   Q.  Back at Leman Street?

          14   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  The best way one can read this and I want to put it to

          16       you before we call her, assuming we can get her off

          17       long-term sick leave to call her, let's see if you agree

          18       what seems to be written here.

          19           If you look below the text, about halfway down:

          20           "Officer was shot during a targeted arrest by the

          21       suspect.  The bullet went through his t-shirt and

          22       embedded into the radio."

          23           Do you see that?

          24   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  She appears then to have recorded three things: firstly


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           1       you were shot during a targeted arrest.  That is

           2       correct, it was a targeted arrest?

           3   A.  It was, yes.

           4   Q.  Secondly, shot by the suspect: I'll come back to that.

           5       Thirdly, the bullet went through your t-shirt and

           6       embedded into your radio.  It did, in fact, go through

           7       your t-shirt and embed into the radio, didn't it?

           8   A.  It did, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  So had she got it right that you told her that you were

          10       shot by the suspect?

          11   A.  That is incorrect.

          12   Q.  Do you recall what you did tell her?

          13   A.  I have seen the book 83 here, which is obviously the

          14       name for it and I myself couldn't decipher what the text

          15       was, which the FME had written, but at that stage, no,

          16       there had been no way, categorically, that I would have

          17       told her that I had been shot by the subject.

          18   Q.  Your understanding at that stage was still that you

          19       didn't know who had shot you; is that right?

          20   A.  The -- person-wise I didn't know who had fired the

          21       shots, no but afterwards, and having sat in the car and

          22       playing it 100 times in my head, I was pretty sure that

          23       it hadn't been Mr Duggan that shot me.

          24   Q.  But you didn't know, for example, whether two officers

          25       had fired shots?


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           1   A.  That's correct.  In that sense, I didn't know how many

           2       people had fired.

           3   Q.  But you were satisfied, and let's just go back to this,

           4       that Mr Duggan had not had the opportunity to shoot you

           5       because you obviously had not seen a gun in his hand,

           6       had you?

           7   A.  That's correct, sir.

           8   Q.  Presumably had he had a gun in his hand, facing you, you

           9       would have seen it?

          10   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Whatever she wrote down here she

          12       will have got that from you.  Was there anyone else

          13       giving an account?

          14   A.  No, just myself, sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just you and her?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  As a result of what you said to her,

          18       she wrote that down?

          19   A.  I believe so, yes.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can I ask you to look at your EAB, please.

          21       If you have a hard copy, by all means look at it, it's

          22       page 34, and it's our CD24 that I want to go to.

          23           Here you start the top of the page with the guns you

          24       had and then you go, on the fourth line to:

          25           "The vehicle was stopped in Ferry Lane N17.  I was


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           1       suddenly aware of shots being fired, one of which hit me

           2       on my left side.  I was immediately taken to the ground

           3       and tended to by my colleagues."

           4           There's no recital of you at all seeing Mr Duggan or

           5       believing that he was reaching for something or warning

           6       anybody, is there?

           7   A.  There's not, sir, no.

           8   Q.  Can you explain why that is?

           9   A.  When I've written this, the initial account, and as

          10       I believed at the time, it was my recollection of

          11       events, the facts that had happened that night.  When

          12       I wrote up my note, I was pretty happy that when it came

          13       to giving a full and frank account, later on those were

          14       details I was quite happy that I would still remember.

          15       They were fresh in my mind.

          16           The briefness of the initial account here was just

          17       that within those two days, had I completely forgotten

          18       what had happened, I was quite happy that what I had

          19       written would enable me to then write a full and frank

          20       account.

          21   Q.  Did you understand that there would be an investigation

          22       by the IPCC?

          23   A.  Completely, yes.

          24   Q.  Was this notebook entry written with a view to that

          25       investigation?


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           1   A.  It was, sir, yes.  Obviously, the initial account is our

           2       sort of starting point, as such, to aid that

           3       investigation.  I know that, having -- it being

           4       described as quite stressful and a traumatic experience,

           5       I would say that myself, I sort of ticked all those

           6       boxes that night, of the psychological traumatic

           7       experiences, and I was quite --

           8   Q.  If I understand it right, the reason you didn't put

           9       anything in was that you appreciated that you would

          10       remember it well enough later to put it in in

          11       a subsequent statement; is that right?

          12   A.  I did, yes.

          13   Q.  Did you leave it out because you were traumatised or you

          14       thought you would remember it?

          15   A.  Quite happy that I would have remembered it.

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well.  That's all I've got.  Thank you

          17       very much.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, that brings us to our usual

          19       time and I know there are still some questions for you.

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So I'm going to be asking you to

          22       come back tomorrow morning at 10.30 to answer those

          23       questions.

          24   A.  Of course, sir.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much so far.  That


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           1       concludes your requirements for today.  But could you be

           2       back at 10.30 tomorrow.

           3   A.  Of course, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So if you would like to go firstly.

           5       Please do not discuss your evidence with anyone.  The

           6       cameras have been turned off.

           7                   (The witness left the court)

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  We have got quite a packed day for witnesses

           9       tomorrow.  Can I enquire whether the jury could be here

          10       for 10 o'clock, I wonder?

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It could happen.  Let's just see if

          12       we can bribe the jury a little bit.  I have said that

          13       they might be required on Friday.  If we have a good

          14       prompt 10 o'clock start and work throughout the day,

          15       would that mean that we would finish all the witnesses

          16       that we have available for this week?

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let me add to the bribery.  I guarantee that

          18       if we start at 10 o'clock tomorrow we will not sit on

          19       Friday.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There you go, that's all right.

          21       Shall we try and do that?  What we'll do then is sit at

          22       10 o'clock tomorrow.  You can make other plans for your

          23       Friday.

          24           On Monday though, there are some witness requirement

          25       difficulties.


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           1           What's the position with that, Mr Underwood?

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  There's a witness, who we have desperately

           3       been trying to accommodate who has family health

           4       problems, can come and it would be very convenient for

           5       that witness and us if we could sit at 12 o'clock on

           6       Monday.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the plan.  Would that be all

           8       right members of the jury, on Monday we'll sit at

           9       12 o'clock to do some more then at that point.  That's

          10       the outline for the next few days then, then obviously

          11       we'll see how we go from there.  Tomorrow, build up your

          12       energy tonight, come in at 10 o'clock and we'll work

          13       through with these remaining witnesses on this and then

          14       Friday you won't be required then 12 o'clock on Monday.

          15           Thank you all very much indeed.  10 o'clock tomorrow

          16       then, please.

          17                   (In the absence of the jury)


          13       (The Inquest adjourned until 10.00 am on Thursday,

          14                         24 October 2013)

          15
               W70 (affirmed) .......................................1
          16
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................1
          17
                   Questions by MR THOMAS. .........................24
          18
               Discussion re waiving of legal ......................41
          19             privilege

          20   W70 (continued) .....................................70

          21       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................71

          22       Questions by MR THOMAS (continued) ..............72

          23       Questions by MR STERN ..........................119

          24       Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ..............133

          25   W42 (sworn) ........................................136


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