Transcript of the Hearing 3 October 2013

 

           1                                       Thursday, 3 October 2013

           2   (10.30 am)


           8                         ZZ37 (affirmed)

           9                   (The witness was anonymised)

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  If you would like to

          11       have a seat and we can turn the cameras on.

          12       Mr Underwood can then ask you who you are.

          13                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, my name's Underwood and I'm

          15       counsel for the Inquest.  I've got a number of questions

          16       for you but the first of them is to identify yourself.

          17       Do you have a list of ciphers in front of you?

          18   A.  Yes, I do.

          19   Q.  Are you the person known on there as ZZ37?

          20   A.  I am, yes.

          21   Q.  Thank you very much.  I think you are a Detective

          22       Constable; is that right?

          23   A.  That is correct, yes.

          24   Q.  In 2011, were you involved in Operation Trident?

          25   A.  Yes, still am to this day.


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           1   Q.  I want to ask you, first of all, were you present at

           2       a briefing about the four-day operation within Operation

           3       Dibri on 3 August?

           4   A.  I was, yes.

           5   Q.  Moving on to the 4 August 2011, were you at Quicksilver

           6       before 6 o'clock?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Were you there when some intelligence came in to ZZ17?

           9   A.  I was.

          10   Q.  Did that intelligence get passed to you or some

          11       intelligence get passed to you --

          12   A.  It did.

          13   Q.  -- about Mark Duggan?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Was that to the effect that he was on his way from

          16       somewhere in a minicab?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Did the intelligence deal with whereabouts he was coming

          19       from?

          20   A.  I can't remember -- can I refer to my statement, is that

          21       okay?

          22   Q.  If you need to, to refresh your memory.  Which statement

          23       are you thinking of?

          24   A.  The second statement.

          25   Q.  You made a statement on 27 June this year; is that the


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           1       one?

           2   A.  No.  The original --

           3   Q.  There's one on -- you're quite right --

           4   A.  There's an original statement on the 4th and there's one

           5       a few days later.

           6   Q.  Were matters fresher in your mind then than they are

           7       now?

           8   A.  Yes, they are.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I do not think there's been any

          10       problems about witnesses having access to their

          11       statements to refresh their memories.

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  Do you have it with you?

          13   A.  I do, yes.  (Pause)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let me just be clear.  What

          15       statement is it to which you are referring now?

          16   A.  This is my second statement.  It's numbered statement 6A

          17       on mine.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's dated?

          19   A.  It's dated 7 August 2011.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  What the lawyers here have as CS25.

          21   A.  Yes, it's paginated on the bottom of the page.

          22           Right.  In response to your question, the answer to

          23       that is no.

          24   Q.  Can I draw your attention to your third statement,

          25       27 June 2013?


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           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Under the final paragraph on that page --

           3   A.  On the 4th, yes -- it says that -- he was about to take

           4       possession of a firearm and he was en route to Leyton

           5       from the Shoreditch area.

           6   Q.  What I'm interested in is whether you did in fact know

           7       at roughly 5.20 on 4 August that Mr Duggan -- or the

           8       intelligence was that Mr Duggan was en route from the

           9       Shoreditch area to the Leyton area?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  That came from ZZ17, did it?

          12   A.  It did.

          13   Q.  Did there come a point where you realised it was more

          14       specific than the Leyton area, that Mr Duggan was

          15       thought to be going?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  How did that come about?

          18   A.  From ZZ17.

          19   Q.  We know that there was a point which you got in

          20       a vehicle, got on the road towards the Leyton area --

          21   A.  Yes, we obviously keep in contact via -- it's

          22       an operation, we use a radio and our contact is made via

          23       that.  Obviously we carry mobile phones as well but --

          24       in general, the conversation is put over on the radio.

          25   Q.  Sure.  So just to get this clear, when you first got the


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           1       intelligence it was that Mr Duggan was on his way from

           2       the Shoreditch area to the Leyton area?

           3   A.  On the road, yes.

           4   Q.  You then got on the road before you got more

           5       intelligence; is that right?

           6   A.  In the car, yes.

           7   Q.  In your car you got an update which specified the Leyton

           8       area down to Vicarage Road; is that right?

           9   A.  Yes, and it's an ongoing operation and obviously

          10       information is coming in all the time.

          11   Q.  I am not being critical, I'm just trying to get the

          12       sequence of it.

          13   A.  No, it's fine.

          14   Q.  Did you go straight to Vicarage Road then?

          15   A.  I did.

          16   Q.  Can you give us an estimation of when you got there?

          17   A.  I done it on blues and twos, took me probably about ten

          18       minutes, maybe less.

          19   Q.  So about 5.30, something like that?

          20   A.  Yes, possibly, around that time.

          21   Q.  We know that you parked roughly at Sophia Road, junction

          22       with --

          23   A.  Yes, about halfway down Vicarage Road.

          24   Q.  Did you know that other Trident officers were doing the

          25       same journey?


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           1   A.  Yes.  I wasn't really aware of that until a bit later

           2       on, that they were on their way.  Obviously, I was the

           3       first person sent out the door because I knew the area,

           4       I used to work there a long, long time ago so --

           5   Q.  Why did you park where you did?

           6   A.  Why?

           7   Q.  Yes.

           8   A.  Probably a hunch, I would say.  It's halfway down a long

           9       road which a majority of it is one way.  It was just,

          10       say, an intuition, just park there, nothing else.

          11   Q.  Had you got any intelligence suggesting Burchell Road

          12       would be involved?

          13   A.  No.

          14   Q.  If you had would you have parked where you did?

          15   A.  If I did, yes.

          16   Q.  Let's take a snapshot at the point where you are parked,

          17       5.30 onwards, roughly --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- near the junction with Sophia Road.  Is the best

          20       intelligence you've got about the vehicle that it was

          21       simply a minicab?

          22   A.  That was all we had.

          23   Q.  What did you then see?

          24   A.  Well, it's a busy thoroughfare, numerous cars were going

          25       past me as I was sitting there and at the time I saw it,


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           1       which was -- (Pause)

           2           Sorry, excuse me a second.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are looking at your statement

           4       again, so that we are aware.

           5   A.  (Pause)  Yes, I must have been sitting there for about

           6       20 minutes or so and I saw the minicab go past.  It was

           7       the only minicab that went past me and I know it was the

           8       only minicab that went past me because nowadays even

           9       black taxis have got a sticker in the rear window, and

          10       that was the only cab that I saw that day.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Right.  So we've heard that this may have

          12       happened at about 5.55, you think somewhere between

          13       5.40 --

          14   A.  Yes, probably, I was sitting there about 20, 25 minutes,

          15       yes.

          16   Q.  Right.  So at about 5.55 you see a minicab going past

          17       you which you identified by the sticker in the back

          18       window.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Could you see in it, could you see the occupants?

          21   A.  Through the rear window there was two occupants,

          22       obviously the driver and a passenger.

          23   Q.  What did the minicab do?

          24   A.  Well, it was in a line of traffic, it drove past me, it

          25       got to Burchell Road, turned left, out of my sight, and


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           1       reappeared approximately five minutes later.

           2   Q.  Were you commentating on this over the radio?

           3   A.  I commentated when the minicab turned left because I was

           4       the only one in Vicarage Road, and then when it

           5       reappeared again, obviously I put it out of Vicarage

           6       Road -- into Vicarage Road and obviously down to the

           7       junction of Park Road and Farmer Road and obviously

           8       turned right in Park Road, and that's when the other

           9       officers, ZZ75 and ZZ46, took over the -- took over

          10       commentary.

          11   Q.  Because they got between you and the cab, did they?

          12   A.  They were parked, I believe, in Farmer Road.  Once it

          13       turned right into Park Road they took over the

          14       commentary.  Once they were behind and then I got in

          15       behind them as a back-up vehicle.

          16   Q.  Were you aware that there was a third Trident vehicle by

          17       that stage?

          18   A.  Not at the time, but later on, I was.

          19   Q.  Were you aware that firearms officers -- sorry, that the

          20       Tactical Firearms Commander called state amber?

          21   A.  Yes, probably around the time we were travelling along

          22       St James's Street into Blackhorse Road.

          23   Q.  Do I take it then that the radio communication was, as

          24       it were, open between you, other Trident officers, ZZ17

          25       and the Tactical Firearms Commander?


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           1   A.  75 and 46 were commentating -- well, it was -- 46 was

           2       commentating on the taxi's movement.  People asked for

           3       permission to talk, because obviously 46 is what is

           4       known as the eyeball, to keep an eye on the vehicle, and

           5       there's intermittent transmissions from other interested

           6       parties, ie the firearms team, they have to put up what

           7       state we're in.  They put up state amber, so we know

           8       that something's going to happen, but 46 would still be

           9       commentating on what's happening.  It's fluid.

          10   Q.  Then did you become aware of state red being called?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Did the firearms cars have to get past you as well as

          13       get past ZZ46's car?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Did you see the stop?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  How many cars back were you?

          18   A.  (Pause)  I'd say I was probably about -- between 40 and

          19       50 metres behind the stop.  It might have been less,

          20       might have been more.

          21   Q.  Okay.  Your job, I take it, was to keep out of the way

          22       at that stage until called forward?

          23   A.  It's an operation with firearms, you don't really want

          24       to get involved in what they do.  They've got their way

          25       of dealing with stops.  I've been on numerous operations


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           1       before, you don't enter that sort of area until it's all

           2       been secured and you're called forward.

           3   Q.  What did you see at the stop?

           4   A.  Not a lot because there was obviously cars ahead of the

           5       cab and cars behind because it's like -- they call it

           6       blocked in.  I heard lots of shouting and I heard

           7       a couple of shots being fired as well.

           8   Q.  Can you help us with any detail of the shouts that you

           9       heard?

          10   A.  It's -- "Police, police, armed police".  There's lots

          11       of -- I was inside a car.  I mean, certain things you

          12       don't hear, but you can hear "Police" being shouted.

          13       There was a lot of armed police officers there that day

          14       and lots of shouting, lots of commotion going on.  You

          15       can't pick up everything.

          16   Q.  No.  A couple of shots, you say?

          17   A.  Yes, yes.

          18   Q.  Did you see the person we now know to be Mark Duggan?

          19   A.  Later I did.

          20   Q.  When he was on the ground?

          21   A.  Yes.  I could only see his feet because he was being

          22       worked on by the firearms officers.

          23   Q.  Did you see the officers get out of their cars after the

          24       shop before the shooting?

          25   A.  Sorry, say that again.


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           1   Q.  Did you see officers get out of their vehicles before

           2       the shooting?

           3   A.  What do you mean by that?

           4   Q.  We know that after a hard stop is done officers get out

           5       of their cars and we know the evidence will be --

           6   A.  I saw -- obviously there's some that I can't see and

           7       some that I can see so -- it's very -- you don't realise

           8       how quick it happens unless you're actually there.  The

           9       speed that they operate at is very quick.  You do see

          10       some things, you don't see other things, because it is

          11       really happening at fast time, and I'm quite a way back

          12       as well and I can't see everything that's going on.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well.  Thank you very much, if you wait

          14       there, there may be some other questions for you.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?

          16                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  Good morning, my name's Michael Mansfield,

          18       I represent the Mark Duggan family.

          19           Now, could you very kindly turn, please, to the

          20       timeline, which is in the jury bundle in front of you.

          21   A.  Certainly.

          22   Q.  If you turn, please, to page 4, entry number 27.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  I am just drawing your attention to it because

          25       a question I want to ask arises out of this.  At 17.59,


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           1       in other words at the moment that Mr Duggan would appear

           2       to have been -- I put it at the moment in the vicinity

           3       of Vicarage Road, there's an alert sent out by him which

           4       says:

           5           "Watch out for a green VW van, it's Trident ..."

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  "... just jammed me", and so on.

           8           I don't want to know all the cars, for perhaps

           9       obvious reasons, but were you in a green VW van?

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  Was there a green VW van part of the convoy that day?

          12   A.  There was, but I never saw it.  I saw it later on.

          13   Q.  Right.  Where did you first see it then?

          14   A.  When it was parked up in Ferry Lane.

          15   Q.  After the shooting?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Right.  Do you know which officers were crewing that by

          18       number or --

          19   A.  Yes, I do.  It would have been, I think 50 and 63.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  ZZ50 as opposed to Z50?

          21   A.  ZZ50.

          22   MR MANSFIELD:  Now, going back to Vicarage Road vicinity --

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  -- did you yourself -- I'll start again.

          25           You were the first one to arrive in the vicinity; is


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           1       that right?

           2   A.  I was the only one in Vicarage Road.

           3   Q.  Yes, the only one.  But in the vicinity of Vicarage

           4       Road, were you still the first one to arrive in the

           5       vicinity?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Right.  When you got there, did you go to the place

           8       you've described, the one place, and you didn't move

           9       until the minicab set off again to go down to Park Road?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  So really before the minicab left the area, as it were,

          12       you hadn't seen any other -- you hadn't seen any other

          13       surveillance vehicle?

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  I just want to go back, just within this timeframe of

          16       you going over.  Before you left the Quicksilver base,

          17       if somebody had said "Vicarage Road", you would have

          18       known that road as well as the Leyton area?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  At what point did you discover, in fact, it was Vicarage

          21       Road in Leyton that you were going to?  (Pause)

          22           Just roughly.

          23   A.  I think it was not long after I'd left Quicksilver.

          24   Q.  Yes, all right.  Now, were you being told about that --

          25       were you being told go to the Vicarage Road vicinity or


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           1       Vicarage Road?

           2   A.  Can I have a look at my statement?

           3   Q.  Yes, yes, certainly.  If you just indicate which one

           4       you're looking at.

           5   A.  Yes, sure.  (Pause)

           6           I was told to go to -- by ZZ17 to go to the Leyton

           7       area, in particular Vicarage Road, E10.

           8   Q.  Yes.

           9   A.  So he must have said to me "Vicarage Road".

          10   Q.  Must have said Vicarage Road.  Now, which statement were

          11       you looking at to get that?

          12   A.  Sorry, that was my last statement that I wrote, which is

          13       on --

          14   Q.  10th --

          15   A.  27 June.

          16   Q.  7 June (sic), I'm sorry.  7 June.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Now, having therefore had that information, I want you

          19       to please help us a little bit with intelligence that

          20       was coming through.  If you would look, please, at C9,

          21       that's a gisted compilation of A10, that's SOCA,

          22       intelligence.  You're familiar with SOCA, Serious

          23       Organised Crime Agency?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  You're familiar with the fact they were providing the


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           1       intelligence?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  C9 is in the jury bundle.  It's a list of --

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  At the same time as looking at this list, because

           6       what -- so you understand what I'm trying to do, is --

           7       this was how it was provided originally, but since the

           8       original provision there are certain additions that have

           9       to go into this that are not on this list, and you are

          10       providing another part to this jigsaw.

          11           Could you have -- you have looked, I think, at the

          12       statement already, it's 27 June this year.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  So it can be seen on screen exactly what it says, it's

          15       CD29382.  If you have the hard copy in front of you.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  You do.  If we could just have -- I think it's just

          18       coming up now.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think I am not being picked up

          20       very well upstairs, the microphone, I wonder if you

          21       could move it closer to you.

          22   MR MANSFIELD:  Is that all right, is that picking up?

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, I think so.

          24   MR MANSFIELD:  It's the bottom paragraph on that page, which

          25       has a thick black redaction in the middle of it because


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           1       you're being asked about the intelligence that was

           2       given.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  "The intelligence received on the 4 August a 2011 was

           5       solely given by ZZ17.  When at Quicksilver patrol base,

           6       he gave information that Mark Duggan was about to take

           7       possession of a firearm and that Duggan was en route to

           8       the Leyton area from the Shoreditch area in a minicab."

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Now, I'm doing it this way because it's perhaps the only

          11       way I can do it.  If you look at the A10 gist that we've

          12       got, the seventh paragraph dealing with the 4th, that's

          13       another detail that is not in that gist, but clearly you

          14       have a recollection that that was the intelligence that

          15       you were being given?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Right.  I just want to ask you about, therefore -- not

          18       the journey to Leyton, obviously.  Are you familiar,

          19       because you know Leyton very well -- did you serve in

          20       Leyton?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  From Leyton police station?

          23   A.  Yes, Francis Road, yes.

          24   Q.  Francis Road, all right.  It may be rather difficult to

          25       pin it.


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           1   A.  You come out of Vicarage Road, the bottom end, onto

           2       Leyton High Road, it's probably about the third turning

           3       on the right-hand side.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we go, always useful.

           5   MR MANSFIELD:  So I go up Vicarage Road to the Lea Bridge

           6       Road.

           7   A.  Vicarage Road from Lea Bridge Road up to Park Road is

           8       one-way.  From Park Road up until the High Road, E10, is

           9       two-way.  So when you reach the junction with the High

          10       Road you turn left, third -- I think the second or third

          11       turn on the right is Francis Road.  Francis Road police

          12       station is probably about half -- not even halfway down,

          13       it's probably less than that.

          14   Q.  Sorry, there's a reason for asking you, because Leyton

          15       police station can be used as a rendezvous point, can't

          16       it, I mean other police vehicles can go there and

          17       rendezvous?  Has it got a police yard, for example?

          18   A.  Do you know what, I don't know now about what Francis

          19       Road do because a lot of police stations have shut down

          20       now and because they've got one of these newfangled big

          21       massive custody suites at Leyton now, which is I think

          22       in Hainault Road, and I don't think Francis Road is

          23       being used anymore.

          24   Q.  That's perhaps now, but we're going back.

          25   A.  I'm not sure whether it was being used at the time.


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           1       I don't think it was an operational police station

           2       anymore, because when the boundaries changed to borough

           3       policing they used Chingford Police Station as the main

           4       police station.

           5   Q.  Just go back to Francis Road for a minute, how far by

           6       car -- how long would it take to get --

           7   A.  What, from where I was?

           8   Q.  Yes.

           9   A.  Less than a couple of minutes.

          10   Q.  Less than a couple of minutes, right.  I'll ask somebody

          11       else about what did exist at that time if you are not

          12       familiar.  However, going back to Vicarage Road and your

          13       being parked there, if you've still got open in front of

          14       you the intelligence that was coming through --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- before you saw the minicab itself --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  -- did you receive intelligence from SOCA that the

          19       minicab had in fact arrived in Vicarage Road?

          20   A.  Not from them -- I got the information from 17, ZZ17.

          21   Q.  Yes, sorry, I'm concertinaing it because he's getting it

          22       from SOCA.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  So the intelligence -- all right, I'll stick to ZZ17.

          25       The intelligence that ZZ17 is passing to you is that the


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           1       car has arrived in Vicarage Road, before you actually

           2       see it?

           3   A.  (Pause)  Yes, I would say --

           4   MR KEITH:  Sorry to rise to my feet.  A very specific

           5       question was put in two parts.  Firstly, who do you

           6       receive intelligence from?  ZZ17.  I'm not sure the

           7       witness has wholly understood that the second part of

           8       the question was directed specifically at what the

           9       intelligence was received from ZZ17.  We must apply

          10       a little caution at this stage.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, I don't know.  I do understand

          12       what you say about caution, but I thought we had moved

          13       on from this particular cautious area in this, in as much

          14       as the question has been asked whether he had received

          15       anything about the minicab's position before he actually

          16       saw it and no one leapt to his or her feet at that stage

          17       until after quite some pause and now you're --

          18   MR KEITH:  No, because, with respect, this was the area that

          19       was put to ZZ17 which resulted in a very carefully

          20       phrased question and answer that Mr Mansfield led when

          21       he was examining ZZ17.  That elicited the obvious open

          22       feature that intelligence was received whilst ZZ37 was

          23       in Vicarage Road.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

          25   MR KEITH:  The nature of that intelligence was not adduced


                                            19
 

 

 


           1       for the reasons that you're aware of.  Mr Mansfield's

           2       question a few moments ago had two parts.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I understand that.

           4   MR KEITH:  The witness answered the first part, which is

           5       that the information came from ZZ17, but Mr Mansfield

           6       then returned to the second part, phrased as part of the

           7       question, as to what the intelligence was and it's in

           8       relation to that that we have to exercise a little care.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you saw the minicab, you saw

          10       the minicab, you have told us about your observations,

          11       were you expecting it to be in Vicarage Road at that

          12       time?

          13   A.  (Pause)  Sir -- I don't think I can answer that

          14       question.

          15   MR KEITH:  With respect, I can address you in the absence of

          16       the jury.  I do not wish there to be a mystery.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I do not think it goes to very much.

          18   MR KEITH:  I don't think so.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On we go, Mr Mansfield.

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes.  You will see the reason I am asking you

          21       the questions in one second.  You see the minicab, it

          22       turns into Burchell Road?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Then when it comes out, shortly after that, do you

          25       receive intelligence that Duggan is in possession of


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       a firearm?

           2   A.  (Pause)  Sorry, could you just repeat that question

           3       again?  Sorry.

           4   Q.  Yes.  The car has turned into Burchell Road and then it

           5       comes out again.

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  So there's roughly a four minute gap --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- roughly.  So we're in the 6 o'clock time zone.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Shortly after 6 o'clock, do you receive intelligence

          12       from ZZ17 to the effect that Mark Duggan is in

          13       possession of a firearm?

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you help us about that or not?

          15       Part of this is already in evidence.

          16   MR MANSFIELD:  It's already in evidence so you don't need to

          17       worry.

          18   MR KEITH:  I am not rising to my feet.

          19   A.  Yes, I did.  It probably did come over the radio, yes.

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  Right.  The reason I'm asking you in this way

          21       is that, when you came to make statements about what

          22       happened on the day, you knew at that point, from all

          23       the intelligence you had and what you'd seen, that the

          24       exercise you were surveying was the collection of

          25       a firearm, didn't you --


                                            21
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- and that one of the areas most important -- you

           3       didn't see anything yourself, you say, in Vicarage Road;

           4       that's what you say, yes?

           5   A.  What do you mean by "didn't see anything"?

           6   Q.  You didn't see a transfer of firearms in front of your

           7       eyes?

           8   A.  No, because it never happened in Vicarage Road.

           9   Q.  No, all right.  So you're very clear about that.  You

          10       know the minicab driver may say that he stopped in

          11       Vicarage Road and didn't turn in but I'm not going down

          12       that route --

          13   A.  No, he didn't though, he turned left into Burchell Road.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  And went out of your sight?

          15   A.  He did.  There's no way the cab stopped in

          16       Vicarage Road.  No, no way whatsoever.

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  That's fine.  So it goes into the Burchell

          18       Road.  So if he's taken possession -- and perhaps I can

          19       take it in stages -- when the cab goes past how many

          20       people in the cab?

          21   A.  Two.

          22   Q.  Was there a third person?

          23   A.  Two.  The driver and the passenger.

          24   Q.  I'm asking you that because of something that happened

          25       later.  So just two people in the cab?


                                            22
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  So it goes into Vicarage Road?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Then it goes into Burchell Road?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  It's out of your sight.  You are then told or you get

           7       information/intelligence that a firearm is in his

           8       possession?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  You come to make a statement knowing all of that.

          11       I just want to ask you why in fact, in the first

          12       statement, you don't mention Burchell Road, in the

          13       second statement you don't mention Burchell Road and

          14       it's only in the third statement that you mention

          15       anything about Burchell Road?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Now, first of all, that's a correct summary, isn't it?

          18   A.  It is, yes.

          19   Q.  Just explain why that is.

          20   A.  Because the reason for that was is that there were --

          21       was information at a later date, after an investigation

          22       took place into the transference of the firearm by

          23       DC Jenkins, who was the officer in the case of the Kevin

          24       Hutchinson-Foster case, that Mr Duggan had picked the

          25       gun up from him.


                                            23
 

 

 


           1           I was asked to clarify in my statement because at

           2       the time it wasn't of any relevance, because we never

           3       knew anything about Mr Hutchinson-Foster.  Once I knew

           4       Mr Hutchinson-Foster was involved I then made my

           5       statement to clarify the point in my statement.  I said

           6       that in the trial of Mr Kevin Hutchinson-Foster and I'll

           7       say it again today.

           8   Q.  The trial of Mr Hutchinson-Foster was somewhat

           9       different, if I may say so, in that in the trial of

          10       Mr Hutchinson-Foster, the question of intelligence was

          11       not a matter before the jury, was it?

          12   A.  No, but --

          13   Q.  Let's go back.

          14   A.  I was asked the same question you are asking me, why

          15       I made that point.  My point was I was asked by the

          16       officer in the case to clarify a point.  My point was

          17       I saw the cab turn left from Vicarage Road into Burchell

          18       Road.  I stand by that point and I am not going to

          19       change my mind about it because that's what I saw.

          20   Q.  It's a simple question.

          21   A.  And it's a simple answer, sir.

          22   Q.  Well, I want to just go -- first of all, did you know

          23       the name Kevin Hutchinson-Foster before you went to

          24       Vicarage Road?

          25   A.  No.


                                            24
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You've been back at the -- can we go back to Quicksilver

           2       for a moment --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- back to the patrol base?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  You had come in that day to do some research, had you?

           7   A.  I'd been in earlier that day to obtain a warrant and

           8       made some other enquiries and I turned up probably about

           9       three-quarters of an hour/half an hour before the actual

          10       briefing was to take place so I was sitting on the

          11       computer anyway, and then ZZ17 came into the room.

          12   Q.  Now, at that point, that's on the 4th?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Are you saying you didn't know anything about Kevin

          15       Hutchinson-Foster?

          16   A.  No.

          17   Q.  Never mentioned?

          18   A.  No.

          19   Q.  Were you at the briefing the day before?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  I would like you to look at C12, please.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  C12 -- now the jury have this, but it can come on the

          24       screen as well, if necessary, it's the third page --

          25       this is a transcript of the recording on the 3rd.  I'm


                                            25
 

 

 


           1       going straight --

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I clarify with you, starting on

           3       page 1 of that, that this is a briefing at which you

           4       were present?

           5   A.  It was, yes.  I would just like to add there are loads

           6       of names, loads and vehicles and things mentioned in

           7       briefings --

           8   MR MANSFIELD:  Let's just take it in stages.  You do listen

           9       carefully to a briefing, don't you?

          10   A.  Of course I do, yes.

          11   Q.  What was going to be your job that day, on the 3rd?

          12   A.  The job was in relation to Mr Duggan.

          13   Q.  Was it?

          14   A.  On the 3rd, yes.

          15   Q.  Was it?

          16   A.  That was what --

          17   Q.  I'll just come to the briefing because I'm going to ask

          18       you how carefully you were listening to this.

          19   A.  Okay.

          20   Q.  On the 3rd, what were you going to be doing on this

          21       operation after the briefing?

          22   A.  What, on the 3rd?

          23   Q.  Yes, on the 3rd.

          24   A.  We were backup to a surveillance team and an armed MASTS

          25       team.


                                            26
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You would need to know what they were doing in order to

           2       provide sensible back up, wouldn't you?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Right.  The third page of this briefing makes very clear

           5       two subjects -- two individuals are named there.  If you

           6       run your eye down.  At the top of the page, to put it in

           7       context, the address of Mr Duggan near Shoreditch is

           8       mentioned at the top.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Going a third of the way down, nothing specific to say

          11       anything about firearms in their possession except:

          12           "... Mark Duggan is currently in possession or

          13       control of about 3 firearms and that he is looking to

          14       take possession ..."

          15           I am summarising it quickly.  Then:

          16           "There's some ... photos coming round ..."

          17           Did you see those --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- of an individual called Kevin Hutchinson-Foster?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  What was the insignificance (significance?) of Kevin

          22       Hutchinson-Foster when you were listening to all of

          23       this?

          24   A.  He was looking to obtain a firearm from

          25       Mr Hutchinson-Foster.  It doesn't mention in this


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       briefing about Vicarage Road, it doesn't mention about

           2       Burchell Road.

           3   Q.  Why are you smiling?

           4   A.  Why am I smiling?  Because my point is that

           5       Mr Hutchinson-Foster did not live in Vicarage Road.  His

           6       girlfriend lived in Vicarage Road.  We never knew that

           7       at the time.

           8   Q.  Didn't you?

           9   A.  No.

          10   Q.  There was intelligence before this day about that --

          11   A.  Well, it's not --

          12   Q.  -- about a girlfriend in Leyton.

          13   A.  It doesn't mention where though, sir.

          14   Q.  No, no, but what is the significance -- leave aside the

          15       address for a moment, the area for a moment, and just

          16       deal with what is Mr Hutchinson-Foster's role according

          17       to this intelligence being imparted to you on the 3rd,

          18       the day before?

          19   A.  Mr Duggan's going to collect a firearm from him.

          20   Q.  Mr Hutchinson-Foster, it is said, in this briefing, is

          21       the one who's storing possibly three firearms for

          22       Duggan, not at his home address, somewhere else; did you

          23       pick that up?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  You did?


                                            28
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  So he, you would agree, Mr Hutchinson-Foster, if that is

           3       what he was doing, is quite a significant individual,

           4       isn't he?

           5   A.  He is, yes.

           6   Q.  Yes.  Did you know on the 4th that what the intelligence

           7       was indicating was that Mark Duggan was going to Kevin

           8       Hutchinson-Foster for a meet to pick up a gun?

           9   A.  I don't think I was, no.

          10   Q.  You weren't aware that that's the context of the

          11       intelligence on the 4th?

          12   A.  The 3rd, yes.  The 4th is the information that I've told

          13       you, that Mr Duggan was going to pick a gun up from

          14       Vicarage Road.  From who, I don't know.

          15   Q.  All right.  Let's leave it just at that level, that it's

          16       just picking up a gun.  When you discovered he had, on

          17       the intelligence, picked up a gun, where did you think

          18       he'd done it?

          19   A.  (Pause)  You want me to say my police mind or where do

          20       you think he picked the gun up?

          21   Q.  Where from your observations could you infer that he

          22       picked up a gun?

          23   A.  (Pause)  That's quite an open question, isn't it?

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's help you.  You're observing in

          25       a car on your own --


                                            29
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- stationary outside Sophia Road.

           3   A.  Sophia, Road, yes.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You indicate, as we've heard, when

           5       you spot the minicab.  The details, I think we've heard

           6       from ZZ46 of you broadcasting that you've seen it and

           7       the number of the cab.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It then goes left into Burchell

          10       Road.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I clarify, to help the jury, we

          13       have some photographs of Vicarage Road, just to see if

          14       it helps us as to where you were parked.

          15   A.  Okay.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have a look at the photographs in

          17       the jury bundle behind divider 1, page 9, perhaps.  Have

          18       you got those photographs?  Keep going, you're around

          19       that way.  There we go.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The photograph on that page --

          22       I say 9, it's page 6 of that but 9 at the top.  Does

          23       that help you as to where you were parked or perhaps the

          24       next --

          25   A.  Probably page 10 would show where I was.


                                            30
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Whereabouts on page 10?

           2   A.  On the right-hand side -- sorry, on the left-hand side

           3       you've got some railings, on the right-hand side there's

           4       a row of vehicles parked.  There's a silver car and

           5       about three or four cars behind it.  I was parked

           6       probably about third car down behind where the silver

           7       car is.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Third car behind the silver car --

           9   A.  About that position, yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- about that position.  Behind you

          11       then on the left is that where Sophia Road comes out

          12       onto Vicarage Road?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In front of you, as we can see in

          15       that photograph, is where Burchell Road is?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are sitting in the driver's seat

          18       and that's the view you've got of Burchell Road?

          19   A.  I have, yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The photograph on the previous page

          21       is obviously a car parked on the other side of the road.

          22   A.  That's right, yes.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You see the minicab, you spot it, it

          24       goes left into Burchell Road, disappeared for four to

          25       five minutes --


                                            31
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- comes out.  Do you say when it

           3       comes out over the radio that it's coming out?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then that has to go and it does in

           6       fact go down Vicarage Road towards Park Road.

           7   A.  That's right, yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you give that information over

           9       the --

          10   A.  I do yes.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then what happened: you then drive

          12       out and follow it?

          13   A.  The other car that was there followed it and then

          14       I moved in behind the other car.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  You get down to the little

          16       mini roundabout then your other observing car takes

          17       over?

          18   A.  Takes the lead, yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Whereabouts is it within all that,

          20       if not then later, that you understand Mark Duggan has

          21       picked up a gun?

          22   A.  Possibly -- I think it was after he'd come out of the

          23       junction and gone down to Park Road, I think.  I'm not

          24       actually sure what location it was.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So it was quite soon after he had


                                            32
 

 

 


           1       come out of Burchell Road?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.  The point I'm trying to ascertain

           5       from you is that if you saw all of that -- and I'm not

           6       questioning that part of it, that you saw that -- is why

           7       in fact you didn't just put it in your first detailed

           8       statement.

           9   A.  Because I said, at the time, it wasn't relevant.

          10   MR MANSFIELD:  I see, thank you.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Thomas?

          12                      Questions by Mr Thomas

          13   MR THOMAS:  ZZ37, my name's Mr Thomas, I'm representing the

          14       loved ones of Mark Duggan.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are going to have to speak up,

          16       a bit louder.

          17   MR THOMAS:  All right.  Now, back in August 2011, just

          18       remind me: how long had you been a serving police

          19       officer?

          20   A.  20 years.

          21   Q.  Sorry, I didn't catch that?

          22   A.  20.

          23   Q.  20 years.  So the one thing we can agree on, you had

          24       a great deal of experience just in terms of policing

          25       duties; would that be fair?


                                            33
 

 

 


           1   A.  You could say that, yes.

           2   Q.  Yes.  Secondly, in August 2011, you had been working on

           3       Operation Dibri for over two years; that's correct,

           4       isn't it?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  I think you say you started on Operation Dibri in

           7       February 2009?

           8   A.  Yes -- when I started at Operation Trident, yes.

           9   Q.  Just help the jury with this: in relation to this

          10       particular operation involving Mark Duggan and the five

          11       other suspects from the TMD, how long had you been

          12       working on that particular project?

          13   A.  Since 2009, when I started.

          14   Q.  So since 2009?

          15   A.  Yes.  It was actually running longer than that.  I had

          16       come on the team as a new member.

          17   Q.  Don't worry, I'm only concerned with your involvement

          18       not others' involvement, okay?

          19   A.  That's fine.

          20   Q.  So, you know this period just before 4 August --

          21       4 August was a Thursday, we know -- we know you were at

          22       the briefing on 3 August.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  During that week, were you working on this particular

          25       project other than the previous day on the Wednesday?


                                            34
 

 

 


           1   A.  Amongst other things, yes.

           2   Q.  Yes, okay.  So when you arrive on the Thursday --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- this project -- I'm calling it "project" but you

           5       understand what I mean -- involving Mark Duggan?

           6   A.  Operation.

           7   Q.  This operation wasn't new to you, it had been ongoing

           8       for some time and you had been working on this operation

           9       amongst other things during that week?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Yes?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Help me with this: on 3 August, which was the

          14       Wednesday --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- you attended the briefing.  I think the briefing took

          17       place in the evening; is that correct?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Yes.  You were updated with all the intelligence that we

          20       can see in the briefing note which is in the jury's

          21       bundle.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  I'm not going to go through it because the jury have it

          24       and they can see it for themselves.  So you were aware

          25       of all the intelligence which had been provided up until


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       that point in time about Kevin Hutchinson-Foster, the

           2       female associate in the Leyton area, Mark Duggan wishing

           3       to collect a gun, and so forth and so on; you were aware

           4       of all of that?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  A meeting, a briefing, was arranged for the next day,

           7       the Thursday, 4 August, yes?

           8   A.  Are you talking about a police briefing?

           9   Q.  There was a briefing that had been arranged for the

          10       Thursday at 6.00 pm.

          11   A.  That's correct, yes --

          12   Q.  Yes.

          13   A.  -- hence why I was at Quicksilver.

          14   Q.  Right.  I just want to ask you about this: do you have

          15       your statement in front of you, your statement dated

          16       7 August, which is your first detailed account?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Can you just turn that up?  For the purposes of the

          19       screen, it's CS0026.  If that could just be put on the

          20       screen, please.  If we can just focus in on the first

          21       main paragraph on that page, thank you.

          22           This is right, isn't it: the briefing was due to

          23       commence at 6 o'clock?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  But you arrived there in the north -- you were not in


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       north London, were you?

           2   A.  Not at the time -- well, I was in other areas of north

           3       London that day.

           4   Q.  What I mean is: you weren't at Quicksilver, you had to

           5       go to Quicksilver; that is correct, isn't it?

           6   A.  For 6 o'clock, yes.

           7   Q.  For 6 o'clock.  Can we just have a look.  You arrived

           8       for the purposes of the 6.00 pm briefing an hour

           9       earlier, didn't you?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Let's be clear on this.  You were not the first to

          12       arrive out of the people who were scheduled to attend

          13       that 6.00 pm briefing; that is correct, isn't it?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  We can see in your witness statement that ZZ17 had

          16       already arrived, as had ZZ46, as had ZZ75.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  One of the reasons -- or some of the reasons why you

          19       arrived early, you deal with.  You had to prepare,

          20       didn't you, and you had to research for the upcoming

          21       briefing; do you see that?  You say that in your witness

          22       statement.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  That's right, isn't it?  This would be fair, wouldn't

          25       it: despite the fact that you had already been briefed


                                            37
 

 

 


           1       the day before --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- despite the fact that you were part of the Operation

           4       Dibri team and you had been working on this for

           5       a considerable period, and working on this particular

           6       operation that week, it was right and proper for you to

           7       get to the 6.00 pm briefing early to enable you to

           8       prepare and research; would that be fair?  (Pause)

           9           Well, that's what you do.

          10   A.  Well, sometimes you get there five minutes before

          11       a briefing.  Sometimes you get there an hour and a half

          12       before a briefing.  You still -- I still look at the

          13       computer and see what's happening and, you know, look at

          14       the subjects and any further information that's there.

          15       That's what we do.

          16   Q.  You and the colleagues that you mentioned gave yourself

          17       sufficient time, which is why you got there at least

          18       an hour before the briefing.  Because, as you said --

          19   A.  I got there an hour early before the briefing,

          20       I mentioned it before.  I got there an hour early --

          21       I was doing other things that day.  I obtained a warrant

          22       from court, I was doing other enquiries.  My enquiries

          23       finished, I got there at 5 o'clock.

          24           It's only perchance that I got there at 5 o'clock.

          25       I could have got there at 5.45, I could have got there


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       5.55.  I got there at 5 o'clock.  There was no ulterior

           2       motive for me being there at 5 o'clock.  I was there at

           3       5 o'clock, I turned the computer on, I researched the

           4       night's briefing to see what we were going to be doing

           5       and if there was any other information that we had

           6       regarding the subjects that we had for that day's

           7       briefing.

           8   Q.  ZZ37 --

           9   A.  There's no other reason why I was there an hour before.

          10   Q.  ZZ37, it's perfectly clear, in your own witness

          11       statement, which we have on screen, why you got there

          12       early.  The reason why you got there early was because

          13       you say, quite clearly, you needed to prepare and you

          14       needed to research for that evening's briefing; that's

          15       what you say, isn't it?

          16   A.  I don't see the word "needed", I say "began".

          17   Q.  You gave yourself sufficient time because that was

          18       standard.  You were not going to turn up at this meeting

          19       five minutes beforehand because you knew that would be

          20       wholly inadequate, which is why the rest of your team

          21       that you mentioned, ZZ46, ZZ75 and ZZ17 were already

          22       there.

          23   A.  No, sorry, I don't agree with you sir.

          24   Q.  I'm going to move on.

          25           You said earlier on that Leyton, in a previous life


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       as a police officer before you went to Trident --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, it was not a previous life.

           4       You were a serving police officer.  I think that's what

           5       the interjection was but anyway, not to worry.  But you

           6       spent a lot of time in Leyton, you knew Leyton well?

           7   A.  I am not offended, sir.

           8   MR THOMAS:  How many years did you work in the Leyton area?

           9   A.  Six and a half years.

          10   Q.  An area you knew really well, would that be fair --

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  -- to the extent that when Mr Mansfield mentioned Leyton

          13       Police Station, before he even got to his question, you

          14       were able to rattle off very quickly the directions to

          15       the police station.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  You had the intelligence before 4 August about this

          18       female associate of Kevin Hutchinson-Foster --

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  -- living in the Leyton area.

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  You knew, from the intelligence, that Mark Duggan was --

          23       the suggestion was Kevin Hutchinson-Foster was storing

          24       the gun in the Leyton area, at the female associate's

          25       premises.  There was difficulty in collecting the gun


                                            40
 

 

 


           1       during the day because she was at work and so the gun

           2       had to be collected during the evening; you knew all of

           3       that?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Are you saying to this jury, just so I'm clear, that

           6       when you were sat in your car, when you received the

           7       intelligence that Mark Duggan had made his way, or was

           8       going to the Vicarage Road area --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- are you telling this jury that you hadn't made the

          11       connection in your mind that Vicarage Road, being in the

          12       Leyton area, you having worked in this area for six

          13       years, knowing it well, that this was connected with --

          14       there was a high probability that this was connected

          15       with the female associate's property in Leyton; is that

          16       what you're saying?

          17   A.  I'm not saying anything.

          18   Q.  No, I'm asking you.

          19   A.  I'm not saying anything.  I'm saying that he went to

          20       an address: whose address, at the time, I did not know.

          21   Q.  Now, can you deal with the question?  I didn't ask if

          22       you knew the address.

          23   MR KEITH:  I think this style of advocacy, where you comment

          24       on your own question before you have even heard the

          25       answer, is not really to be encouraged.


                                            41
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  Now, can you deal with the question, despite

           2       Mr Keith's intervention.  The question is: are you

           3       saying that when you arrived in Vicarage Road, you

           4       hadn't made the connection in your mind that there was

           5       a possibility that Mark Duggan was going to the female

           6       associate's property?

           7   A.  No.

           8   Q.  You are not being quite frank and honest with this jury,

           9       are you, ZZ37, may I suggest --

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well --

          11   MR THOMAS:  I'm entitled to put it, sir, unless you say it's

          12       improper.  The jury are entitled to look at the -- and

          13       take the officer's demeanour --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The jury will make up their own

          15       minds about what evidence they can rely on and what they

          16       cannot.  But if you are going to put about whether

          17       a witness is being honest or dishonest it has to be put

          18       on a proper basis, which I do not believe you have.

          19       There we are, so please be careful.

          20   MR THOMAS:  I have put the point.  I am going to move on.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There is a point here, actually,

          22       which I just wondered.  You are sitting in your car, at

          23       the previous night's briefing you've been reminded, you

          24       were shown pictures of Kevin Hutchinson-Foster.  One of

          25       the things you might have been interested about, while


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       you are sitting there in Vicarage Road, is what happened

           2       if Kevin Hutchinson-Foster walked past down the road?

           3   A.  Sir, I understand that question.  But what you've got to

           4       remember is Leyton is quite a big area, it covers

           5       a whole multitude -- it covers Leytonstone, Walthamstow

           6       and Leyton, that's Waltham Forest, and Chingford and

           7       Walthamstow and further out.  It's a big area.

           8           I didn't know, in my mind, where Mr Duggan was going

           9       to go and pick up this gun.  I knew the information was

          10       he had an address that he may go to in Leyton, but I did

          11       not, that day, make the connection between this being

          12       the female's address that he was going to or

          13       Mr Hutchinson-Foster's address.  The reason being is

          14       I know that Mr Hutchinson-Foster does not live at this

          15       address, he lives at another address somewhere else.

          16           So no, I didn't know that he was going to an address

          17       in Vicarage Road to meet up with Mr Hutchinson-Foster to

          18       pick up a gun.  Obviously, it transpired later on that

          19       he did and that's where I got that information from,

          20       hence why it's all written down in my statement.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Thank you for giving us

          22       that answer.

          23   MR THOMAS:  Another area and the last area.  Can I turn,

          24       please, to the actual events just at the time of the

          25       shooting of Mark Duggan in Ferry Lane?


                                            43
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  ZZ37, you arrived at the scene -- you have already

           3       indicated that you couldn't see everything --

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  -- you could see some things but you couldn't see

           6       everything.

           7   A.  That's right.

           8   Q.  I wonder if we can just call up the next page of your

           9       statement, which is page 27.  Again, it's that first

          10       main paragraph.  I wonder if that could just be blown up

          11       on the screen.

          12           Can I just take you through this.  The jury have not

          13       seen this, so I am going to read this to you.  I'm

          14       taking it up, about the -- second sentence from the top

          15       line:

          16           "I then saw a number of armed officers ..."

          17           Do you see that?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  "I then saw a number of armed officers alight from their

          20       vehicles and run towards the Toyota and the nearside

          21       footway.  The placing of the vehicles around the Toyota

          22       obscured my view.  As per police instructions and being

          23       unarmed I remained in my vehicle until called forward by

          24       the armed officers."

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            44
 

 

 


           1   Q.  "At this point I heard what I believed to be a number of

           2       gunshots.  I then saw one of the firearms officers

           3       approach ZZ46 and ZZ75's vehicle.  I then opened the

           4       driver's door to my vehicle and I was made aware that

           5       an officer had been shot and a request made for

           6       an ambulance ..."

           7           Et cetera, et cetera.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  I want to come back to just before the shooting.  This

          10       much is clear: you made this statement after you had

          11       an opportunity to have some rest, correct?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Because, if we turn to page 24, can you see those five

          14       lines?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  That was your first statement.

          17   A.  It was.

          18   Q.  Yes.  This was your first statement.  I'll read it, all

          19       five lines of it.  This was done on 4 August and it

          20       simply says:

          21           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was on duty in plain

          22       clothes engaged in a covert police operation.  As

          23       a result of information received I followed a beige

          24       Toyota motor vehicle index ... to Ferry Lane area of

          25       Tottenham ... at this location the Toyota vehicle was


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       stopped by armed police officers when an incident took

           2       place where shots were fired.  I have made this

           3       statement in conjunction with ZZ17, ZZ46, and ZZ75."

           4           Then you sign it.

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  So your first statement, you don't give hardly any

           7       detail whatsoever, yes?

           8   A.  No.

           9   Q.  You were given an opportunity to have some rest, collate

          10       your thoughts and you make your detailed account three

          11       days later.  We can see that starts over the page.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  This statement runs to three pages.

          14   A.  Mm-hmm.

          15   Q.  Just taking you back, it's right, isn't it, what I've

          16       suggested: you had an opportunity to collate your

          17       thoughts, have some rest, before you committed to paper

          18       your detailed account; is that fair?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Would it also be fair that you knew that the purpose

          21       behind your witness statement was to assist in the

          22       investigation into the shooting of Mark Duggan?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  You also knew, would this be fair, that your account

          25       should be as detailed as possible in relation to what


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       took place at the time of the shooting?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  You knew, when you made this statement, that the police

           4       officer's conduct was likely to be scrutinised by

           5       a barrister like myself and Mr Mansfield who represent

           6       the family and loved ones; you knew that, would that be

           7       fair?

           8   A.  Not at the time, no.

           9   Q.  You didn't know that it would subsequently come to

          10       a coroner's inquest?

          11   A.  At some point, but not at the time.

          12   Q.  In any event, you knew that your statement would have to

          13       be right and the truth, yes?

          14   A.  It's always the truth, yes.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the declaration at the top of

          16       it, under section 9, yes.

          17   A.  Sorry --

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, you wanted to say something.

          19   A.  Sorry.  I would not sign a declaration to the best of my

          20       knowledge if I didn't think it was true.

          21   MR THOMAS:  Yes, okay.  Help me with this: can we just go

          22       back to page 27 and the actual incident involving the

          23       point where gunshots are fired.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that the passage on the screen?


                                            47
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  The passage on the screen that we just looked

           2       at.  When the armed officers get out and the shots are

           3       fired, this is correct, is it: nowhere do you say that

           4       the officers shouted any warnings, do you?

           5   A.  No.

           6   Q.  You knew that to be an important matter, didn't you --

           7       didn't you?

           8   A.  The things you write sometimes that you don't put in

           9       your statement.  I know what I remember, there are

          10       things that you don't remember.

          11   Q.  It's a simple question --

          12   A.  I'm telling you, I'm saying it here, I said in the trial

          13       that I heard -- I've been asked this question before --

          14       what I heard that day was officers shouting "Police,

          15       police, police".

          16   Q.  Forgive me, that wasn't my question.  My question was

          17       a simple one.  You knew the fact that officers shouting

          18       to be an important matter.  That's my question, can you

          19       answer it, please?

          20   A.  You could say it was important, yes.

          21   Q.  Yes.  But it's not in your witness statement?

          22   A.  No.

          23   Q.  Can I deal with your evidence --

          24   A.  Can I just explain the concept?

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Of course you can, please.


                                            48
 

 

 


           1   A.  In this instance, I am not the person holding a firearm

           2       who's about to do his duty.  They are the ones who will

           3       make the warnings, it's not me.  If I hear something,

           4       I will say it.  I don't think the relevance of me saying

           5       that someone shouted something when there are a load of

           6       other people there who are hearing what I hear and have

           7       put it in their statement.  I have not put it in my

           8       statement, I don't know why I have not put it in there,

           9       but that's what I heard.

          10           The imperative thing is -- for the firearms officer

          11       who's got the gun, who points it at anyone, is to make

          12       that warning.  It's not up to me to say that warning.

          13       Yes, it is important, I do understand that, but it's not

          14       in my statement.  The person that should be asked about

          15       the warnings is the person who's actually holding the

          16       firearm and not myself.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.  We'll move on.  You have

          18       asked that question.

          19   A.  And I have answered it.  I've said, yes, it is important

          20       but I am not the person making the warnings, it's the

          21       firearms officer pointing the gun at the subject.  It's

          22       not me.

          23   MR THOMAS:  Thank you very much ZZ37, that's all I ask you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Thomas.

          25           Mr Stern?


                                            49
 

 

 


           1   MR STERN:  No thank you.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

           3   MR BUTT:  No.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

           5   MR GLASSON:  No.

           6   MS DOBBIN:  No thank you.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

           8                      Questions by MR KEITH

           9   MR KEITH:  ZZ37, on 4 August, after 5.30, you were asked in

          10       effect to locate Mr Duggan.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Because all you were told was that he was en route to

          13       Leyton from a broad geographical area, Shoreditch, to

          14       pick up a firearm.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  You didn't know where he was going, you didn't know the

          17       address.

          18   A.  No.

          19   Q.  You didn't know who he was going to meet.

          20   A.  No.

          21   Q.  You didn't know anything other than it was in the

          22       Vicarage Road area.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  There are around about, just looking at the map, 20 or

          25       so roads leading into Vicarage Road or into the roads


                                            50
 

 

 


           1       that lead into Vicarage Road.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Did you know which, if any, of those roads the minicab

           4       that you were trying to find would go to?

           5   A.  No.

           6   Q.  But you knew Vicarage Road --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- the only information you had, and you knew it was

           9       a long road?

          10   A.  I did, yes.

          11   Q.  The minicab, if it had gone to Vicarage Road, assuming

          12       that it would have gone to Vicarage Road, could have

          13       turned into any road off Vicarage Road?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  So why did you park halfway down Vicarage Road?

          16   A.  Because I -- well, I made the educated guess, being

          17       a police officer for 20-odd years, that the best place

          18       to go down Vicarage Road would have probably been

          19       halfway down the road.  I was probably parked halfway

          20       down, between one major junction and the other major

          21       junction.  I mean, I could have -- Mr Duggan could have

          22       turned off at any road, or the cab could have, and

          23       I could have missed him.

          24           I was quite fortunate, at the end the day, and

          25       I would say that's a fortunate thing, that where I was


                                            51
 

 

 


           1       was very lucky and obviously I saw him go past me.  It

           2       happens.  It happens.  Sometimes you're lucky and

           3       sometimes you're not.

           4   Q.  That evening you were very lucky?

           5   A.  Very lucky, yes.

           6   Q.  As soon as you struck lucky, you told everyone on the

           7       net that you had seen a minicab, the only minicab that

           8       came past you --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- and you gave out the registration plate number?

          11   A.  I did, yes.

          12   Q.  As we now know, it was recorded down in ZZ46's notebook.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  As you saw it come past you and turn left onto Burchell

          15       Road you told everyone that as well --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- and ZZ46 noted that down too.

          18           Where you were, just for a moment, were you between

          19       the Sophia Road junction and the Burchell Road junction

          20       or were you before Sophia Road?  Because when we look at

          21       that map, page 10 -- the photograph on page 10 of the

          22       jury bundle, Burchell Road is the road to your right and

          23       obviously Vicarage Road is the road that we can see.

          24       The car area, the parking area on the right-hand side,

          25       is the area between Sophia Road and Burchell Road.  Were


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       you further up Vicarage Road before you got to Sophia

           2       Road, if you were coming down the one-way road, or were

           3       you between Sophia Road and Burchell Road?

           4   A.  I think it was between Sophia and Burchell.  So, as

           5       I say, I was about 20 yards from the junction with

           6       Sophia, which would have been behind me.  So where you

           7       see the blue car, the third car down --

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where the little hand is?

           9   A.  Where the hand is, yes.  That's approximately 20 yards

          10       from Sophia Road.  Then from that car to Burchell Road,

          11       which is obviously the next junction, is probably about

          12       another 80 yards, approximately.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were there cars parked in front of

          14       you, can you remember?

          15   A.  There might have been one car parked in front of me.

          16       There may have been two, I can't remember now.  But

          17       there was certainly one -- certainly one car in front of

          18       me.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You had a good view but not

          20       a completely unobstructed view?

          21   A.  Well, I had a very good view out of my window.

          22   MR KEITH:  Of the car turning into Burchell Road?

          23   A.  Yes.  The thing is as well, some people seem to think

          24       some minicabs are just cars.  This isn't just a car,

          25       it's a people carrier, it's a lot bigger and stands up


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       a lot higher than any other vehicle.  So if it was

           2       a car, you maybe might not have seen everything, but

           3       this was quite a big vehicle and quite high up.  You

           4       know, it's not like a normal car that you drive.  It was

           5       like a people carrier, which stands up quite high off

           6       the road.

           7   Q.  You had great fortune, you had spotted the minicab that

           8       you were told to look out for.  You disseminated to your

           9       fellow officers the vital fact, which is the

          10       registration plate and where it's going.  If you then

          11       lose it thereafter at least everybody has the

          12       registration plate.

          13   A.  Exactly, yes.

          14   Q.  But it does not come back out of Burchell Road for a few

          15       minutes?

          16   A.  Approximately four or five minutes.

          17   Q.  So you wait?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  If you had known -- which I think is what's being put to

          20       you, or should have known -- that the car was going into

          21       Burchell Road for the purposes of picking up a gun and

          22       then going on its way --

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  -- you would have obviously wanted to see the

          25       handover --


                                            54
 

 

 


           1   A.  Of course.

           2   Q.  -- so you would have parked somewhere where you could

           3       see into Burchell Road?

           4   A.  I would have done, yes.

           5   Q.  But you didn't --

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  -- because you didn't know what was going to happen in

           8       Burchell Road because you didn't know about Burchell

           9       Road at all --

          10   A.  No.

          11   Q.  -- until it drove into it?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Right.  Afterwards, you were asked to provide

          14       a statement because, of course, subsequently the car was

          15       stopped and Mark Duggan was shot.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  The only relevant feature of your evidence and anything

          18       that you've done was that you had spotted the minicab

          19       from which he emerged in Ferry Lane at which point he

          20       was shot.

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  So of course that's why your statement was short.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  That's all that was needed.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            55
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Nobody knew then, did they, where the gun had come from

           2       that was found at Ferry Lane?

           3   A.  No.

           4   Q.  The taxi driver remembered, when he was spoken to, that

           5       the car had stopped in the Burchell Road, the Vicarage

           6       Road/Burchell Road area and --

           7   MR THOMAS:  Sorry, sir, I'm going to object to this.  It's

           8       not right that, firstly, Mr Keith knows better than to

           9       just lead, lead, lead, lead, particularly on some of

          10       these areas which are -- Mr Keith knows, particularly on

          11       some of these sensitive areas and particularly with his

          12       own witness, that, you know -- despite this being

          13       an Inquest, leading -- in other words asking a question

          14       that suggests the answer -- with your own witness is

          15       such --

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, he is very entitled to lead

          17       a question but I was a little bit concerned myself about

          18       how far he was going with what another witness will say.

          19   MR THOMAS:  That was the second point.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I was just about, in a more perhaps

          21       restrained way, just to enquire where this question was

          22       going.  So you are half right, Mr Thomas.

          23           Let's just see whether Mr Keith wants to even bother

          24       to ask that question.

          25   MR KEITH:  ZZ37, later you were of course asked to provide


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       a more detailed statement and, of course by the time

           2       that you provided that statement, many more issues were

           3       under debate --

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  -- not least of course the issue of how and why

           6       Mr Duggan was shot --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- and where the gun had come from.

           9   A.  Correct.

          10   Q.  It's not surprising that you provided a number of

          11       statements as more and more people began to look at all

          12       the issues that would be under consideration.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Right.  You told us that you are and you were not,

          15       a firearms officer.

          16   A.  I am not, no.

          17   Q.  The circumstances in which Mr Duggan was shot, that is

          18       to say the immediate circumstances revolving around the

          19       events in Ferry Lane --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- were not part of your brief?

          22   A.  Not my remit.

          23   Q.  You were a Trident officer who was called upon to carry

          24       out an active surveillance on location --

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            57
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- which, with great good fortune, you did --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- and that, as far as you were concerned, was the end

           4       of it?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Underwood?

           8                Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can I just draw a few things together to see

          10       if I've got this clear, ZZ37?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  When you were parked up and you saw the minicab go into

          13       Burchell Road, did you know Burchell Road was a dead

          14       end?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  You were aware that, according to the intelligence, the

          17       purpose of the trip being made by Mark Duggan was to

          18       pick up a gun in the Vicarage Road area; is that right?

          19   A.  (Pause)  Sorry, can you repeat the question again?

          20   Q.  Did you know while you were there that, according to the

          21       intelligence, the purpose of Mark Duggan's journey was

          22       to pick up a gun in the Vicarage Road area or am

          23       I putting too much into the intelligence that you had?

          24   A.  (Pause)  Yes, we were told by ZZ17 that Mr Duggan was

          25       going to take possession of a firearm and was on his way


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       to the Leyton area.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's why you put your blues and

           3       twos to get there?

           4   A.  Of course, yes.  I mean, something of that importance,

           5       obviously causes you to get somewhere really quickly.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Of course, it's no criticism.

           7   A.  No, not at all.

           8   Q.  Obviously when the minicab went into Burchell Road you

           9       didn't know it was going to be there for four or five

          10       minutes, did you?

          11   A.  No, I didn't, no.

          12   Q.  Bearing in mind it was a dead end and bearing in mind

          13       the purpose of the journey was to pick up a gun, did it

          14       not occur to you that this might be what was going on in

          15       Burchell Road?

          16   A.  Well, the thought did sort of -- well, you would think

          17       something like that may have happened but you don't know

          18       what's going to happen.  He might have stopped off to

          19       drop something off or he could have seen a friend at

          20       a house.  Loads of things happen.

          21   Q.  Did your suspicions about that increase?

          22   A.  Of course, I'm a police officer, at the end of the day,

          23       and I've got a suspicious mind and them things do cross

          24       your mind, yes.

          25   Q.  Did those suspicions increase across the four or five


                                            59
 

 

 


           1       minutes?

           2   A.  Well, of course, because at the time there's information

           3       coming in all the time from ZZ17 about what's going to

           4       happen on that day.  So your mind is thinking -- you're

           5       thinking of -- as a policeman, you're thinking about

           6       what's going to happen, that's my mindset.

           7   Q.  The reason I'm asking this is that Mr Keith asked you

           8       a question to which you gave this answer, that if you

           9       had thought the handover was going to happen in Burchell

          10       Road you would have moved closer up to get a view of it;

          11       is that right?

          12   A.  (Pause)  If I thought that someone was going to get

          13       a firearm, being unarmed and now knowing that that

          14       firearm was loaded, I probably wouldn't have gone down

          15       there, because I wasn't wearing any protection at the

          16       time and, to put myself on offer to someone that may be

          17       carrying a firearm is, well, suicidal basically.

          18   Q.  Well, there's something else I wanted to ask you about

          19       there.  We know that at least your colleagues managed to

          20       be so well undercover driving these various vehicles

          21       that you didn't see them, let alone -- did you make

          22       yourself available as a police officer?  Was it

          23       a purpose of your being there that you were remaining

          24       discreet?

          25   A.  Of course.  You're meant to blend into the background so


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       no one looks at you and thinks you're a police officer.

           2       That's the whole point of covertness.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well.  That's all I ask.

           4               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just one little area to clarify to

           6       me.  The previous night you tell us you were at the

           7       briefing.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you go off and do some

          10       surveillance in the Shoreditch area and Micawber Court

          11       and such like?

          12   A.  No, because the night before it was -- a surveillance

          13       team had been deployed, not us.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were you yourself --

          15   A.  I was not part of that surveillance team.  We have

          16       surveillance capability on our unit.  On the 4th, the

          17       surveillance team hadn't arrived at Quicksilver and the

          18       information came out before 6 o'clock, before the

          19       briefing.  So there was no surveillance team to

          20       obviously carry out --

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's not that point that I'm worried

          22       about.  It's just really this: on the 4th itself you are

          23       told to go to Vicarage Road and you told the jury that

          24       your recollection is that ZZ17 said that Mark Duggan was

          25       coming from Shoreditch.


                                            61
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did he actually say that or did you

           3       just expect Mark Duggan to come from Shoreditch because

           4       of what you knew about him.  Were those words actually

           5       used by ZZ17?

           6   A.  Sorry, sir, "expect"?

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, you knew that Mark Duggan --

           8   A.  The intelligence said he was coming from the Shoreditch

           9       area.  The Shoreditch area, again I will say, is a big

          10       area.  I don't know what address he's coming from, all

          11       I knew was that he was going to be travelling from one

          12       place to another.  As I said, I made myself -- my way

          13       down to Vicarage Road and, by luck, I was in the right

          14       place at the right time, and that's all I can say.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But ZZ17 said that, that's the

          16       important thing I'm trying to ask you about?

          17   A.  About?

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That Mark Duggan was coming from the

          19       Shoreditch area on the 4th.

          20   A.  I've put that in my statement about the intelligence is

          21       that he's coming from the Shoreditch area to the Leyton

          22       area.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Right, that

          24       concludes, I think, your evidence.  What we'll do is ask

          25       you just to sit there for a moment.


                                            62
 

 

 


           1           Members of the jury, that will be our moment for the

           2       mid-morning break.  So what I'll ask is for the cameras

           3       to be turned off, firstly then, once the jury are ready

           4       for them to leave us for ten minutes.


          19   (11.58 am)

          20                         (A short break)

          21   (12.14 pm)

         

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                            63

 

 

 


          16                  (In the presence of the jury)

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          18       jury.  We're ready now for the next witness.

          19           Who is the next witness to be?

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's Mark Duggan's brother, Marlon, please.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Marlon Duggan, right.

          22                   MR MARLON DUGGAN (affirmed)

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Have a seat,

          24       would you.  There we are.  Perhaps if you sit a little

          25       bit further forward, Mr Underwood will be asking you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                            71
 

 

 


           1       some questions, and we'll see how things go.

           2                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning Mr Duggan.  My name is Underwood

           4       and I have questions for you to start with.  Can you

           5       give us your full names, please?

           6   A.  It's Marlon Duggan.

           7   Q.  Thank you.  We know that when Mark Duggan was in the

           8       minicab on 4 August 2011 he received a phone call at

           9       about 6.09 that lasted three minutes or so, and on his

          10       phone the person who dialled it comes up as "Spangy";

          11       was that you?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Were you speaking to him for that three minutes or so?

          14   A.  Yes, I don't know if it was three minutes but I was

          15       definitely speaking to him though.

          16   Q.  All I want to ask you about, about that, is what sort of

          17       state of mind he seemed to be in during that time?  How

          18       did you seem to you?

          19   A.  He seemed normal, just -- like any other day, how he

          20       normally is when I phone him and we have a conversation.

          21   Q.  How did that call come to an end?

          22   A.  I'm not even too sure, I just know that he told me to

          23       meet him on the Farm and that was it.  I'm not too

          24       sure --

          25   Q.  Sorry, I think we might be having trouble picking you up


                                            72
 

 

 


           1       on the microphone.

           2   A.  I'm not too sure how it come to an end.  I just know he

           3       told me to meet him on the Broadwater Farm Estate.

           4   Q.  Did you get any impression that he brought the call to

           5       an end in a hurry for any reason?

           6   A.  No.

           7   Q.  Could you hear police sirens in the background or

           8       anything like that?

           9   A.  No.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  That's all I want to

          11       ask you.  Other people may have some questions.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

          13   MR MANSFIELD:  No questions, thank you.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Anyone else would like to ask

          15       Mr Marlon Duggan any other questions?  No.

          16           Mr Underwood?

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  No.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think that is it.  Thank you for

          19       coming forward and assisting us on that much then,

          20       Mr Duggan.  Thank you, that concludes your evidence.

          21       You're free to leave the witness box.  Thank you.

          22                      (The witness withdrew)

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, I hope to have a quick and fairly

          24       straightforward succession of other Trident witnesses

          25       and one or two of the surveillance officers, all of whom


                                            73
 

 

 


           1       have anonymity.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  So you need us to get out of

           3       court for a short time.

           4           Members of the jury, a little bit of exercise for us

           5       both, sorry about that, you have only just got settled

           6       down, haven't you?  But if you would just like to leave

           7       and I'll have to leave too for a very short time.  Thank

           8       you very much.

           9           So cameras off.


          12   (12.30 pm)

          13                         (A short break)

          14   (12.33 pm)

          18                  (In the presence of the jury)

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

          20       jury.  We will then have the next witness, who is to be?

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  B17.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll ask the witness then to come

          23       in.

          24                          B17 (affirmed)

          25                   (The witness was anonymised)


                                            74
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Please have

           2       a seat.

           3                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  I hope there's going to be a list of ciphers

           5       and names against them on your table in a moment.

           6   A.  Thank you.

           7   Q.  Can I ask you to look for B17 there, please.  Is that

           8       you?

           9   A.  Yes, sir, it is.

          10   Q.  Thank you.  My name's Underwood and I appear for the

          11       Inquest and I've got a few question for you.

          12           Were you the team leader of the SCD11 surveillance

          13       team on 4 August 2011 --

          14   A.  Yes, I was.

          15   Q.  -- dealing particularly with Operation Dibri?

          16   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          17   Q.  Were you due to have a briefing at about 6 o'clock on

          18       4 August at Quicksilver?

          19   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          20   Q.  What actually happened?

          21   A.  We obviously were due to arrive before 6.00 ready for

          22       the briefing at 6.00 pm.  I received a phone call from

          23       ZZ17 earlier -- shortly -- sort of about 5.30-ish,

          24       probably, on that afternoon to tell me that the

          25       intelligence had changed and could we get to the


                                            75
 

 

 


           1       briefing location as soon as possible.

           2   Q.  Were you in company with anybody else at that stage?

           3   A.  No, sir, I was on my own.

           4   Q.  Did you hurry to get there?

           5   A.  Yes, sir.  We've got blue lights and two tones on our

           6       cars so I made progress to the location.

           7   Q.  What happened when you got there?

           8   A.  When I got there I spoke with ZZ17, who updated me on

           9       what the current intelligence was, and I then contacted

          10       the rest of my team and got them there as quickly as

          11       possible as well.

          12   Q.  Right.  We know that ZZ17 went off together with Z51 and

          13       the CO19 officers, leaving at least some of the

          14       surveillance officers back at Quicksilver.  Were you

          15       left behind?

          16   A.  Yes, I was -- I think I was one of the first

          17       surveillance officers to arrive, sir.

          18   Q.  Did your team collect in due course?

          19   A.  Yes, sir, they all arrived.

          20   Q.  Did you give them a briefing?

          21   A.  Yes, a very brief -- a brief resume of what I'd been

          22       told, which to be fair was exactly the same as the

          23       briefing the evening before, the intelligence was the

          24       same.

          25   Q.  What did you then tell them to do?


                                            76
 

 

 


           1   A.  I gave them the warnings in relation to the issuing of

           2       firearms, they loaded their weapons and then we left to

           3       go down towards Blackhorse Road.

           4   Q.  Were you getting a running commentary from Trident?

           5   A.  Yes, we had radios on listening to the commentary of the

           6       Trident officers.

           7   Q.  What were you intending to do?

           8   A.  We were intending to conduct surveillance, sir.

           9   Q.  So you were concerned what actually happened then?

          10   A.  As I drove round the Tottenham Hale one-way system

          11       obviously the commentary was going, I was driving along

          12       Ferry Road towards Blackhorse Lane, Mr Duggan and the

          13       minicab were driving towards me with the other

          14       surveillance officer behind him and the firearms

          15       officers behind that.  They drove past me the other way.

          16       Once the convoy had gone past, it was out of sight,

          17       I turned round and then joined on the back of convoy.

          18   Q.  You were quite a few cars behind the minicab?

          19   A.  Yes, I was.

          20   Q.  Did you see anything of the stop?

          21   A.  No, sir.  I was aware -- I was aware that the

          22       intervention had taken place but I didn't actually see

          23       what happened, no.

          24   Q.  Did you go into the scene?

          25   A.  The normal practice for the surveillance team when CO19


                                            77
 

 

 


           1       do an intervention is that we provide the cordons, we

           2       provide a sterile environment for the firearms officers

           3       to work in.  So as the team leader, part of my

           4       responsibility is to actually implement the cordons.

           5           So I implemented the cordons, I directed B22 to go

           6       forward past the stop to the other side of the bridge,

           7       to put a cordon on that side, the Tottenham Hale side of

           8       the bridge, in order to put that containment in there.

           9   Q.  I think we've heard the phrase "inner" and "outer"

          10       cordons, can you help us, just how the cordon systems

          11       work?

          12   A.  Ideally, you would have an inner cordon and an outer

          13       cordon on any firearms operation.  Unfortunately, by the

          14       very nature of the surveillance team and the small

          15       numbers that we work with, it's not always possible to

          16       have an inner and outer cordon.  So effectively we

          17       implemented an inner cordon so we were, you know,

          18       within, I don't know, 30 or 40 yards possibly of the

          19       scene.

          20   Q.  This is crime scene tape, is it?

          21   A.  We literally stood there, obviously we're in plain

          22       clothes so we -- as we ran we wore blue baseball caps

          23       with chequered badges with "Police" on the front to

          24       notify our firearms officers that obviously we are also

          25       police officers and we're carrying firearms to prevent


                                            78
 

 

 


           1       any likelihood of what we call "blue on blue".

           2   Q.  Again, while we are on this topic of cordons, initially

           3       you set up a physical cordon of firearms officers?

           4   A.  Yes, we physically blocked the road with our vehicles.

           5   Q.  Did you put crime scene tape up at some point or was

           6       that someone else's job or did it not happen?

           7   A.  I do not think we did.  I think in the future (?) we

           8       did, but I don't think we did, no.

           9   Q.  Still on the subject of cordons, is there some sort of

          10       cordon control by which people who enter and leave the

          11       scene are logged?

          12   A.  Ideally.  On a slow time incident yes there would be

          13       a log.  Unfortunately, with the circumstances and the

          14       speed of the incident as it happened, that wasn't

          15       something that I personally did.  I don't know if it was

          16       done by someone else but it certainly wasn't something

          17       that I did.

          18   Q.  Were you aware of the emergency vehicles coming and

          19       going?

          20   A.  Yes, sir, I was, yes.

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  There's nothing else I want to ask you, thank

          22       you, but other people may have more questions.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?

          24                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          25   MR MANSFIELD:  Good morning, my name's Michael Mansfield,


                                            79
 

 

 


           1       I represent the Mark Duggan family.  Just a very few

           2       questions, please.  Also, if you are unable to answer

           3       them because they are too general, I'm sure you'll say

           4       so.

           5   A.  Sir.

           6   Q.  Starting with the 4 August itself, you were due to come

           7       on for a briefing at 6.00 pm, we've heard that.  I want

           8       to go back earlier in the day.  If it had been necessary

           9       for you to come on earlier that day, would that have

          10       been possible?

          11   A.  That is not a decision that I make, sir.  If the

          12       surveillance team is required at short notice there is

          13       a specific protocol that is done, we have an office that

          14       is manned that --

          15   Q.  Right.

          16   A.  So a customer would ring our surveillance operation

          17       centre, request a surveillance team.  There's no

          18       guarantee that my team -- although we were due to deploy

          19       at 6.00 pm on Operation Dibri, there's no guarantee that

          20       if a call came in at 2.00 pm, for example, that the

          21       surveillance team would send my team.  They may have

          22       sent another team.

          23   Q.  I don't need to know where the centre is, but the

          24       centre, from what you were saying, is not in Wood Green?

          25   A.  No, sir, it's in central London.


                                            80
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Central London.  At any one time, dealing with

           2       August 2011 not the position now possibly, but then, are

           3       you able to help us about essentially the resources,

           4       namely -- let's take the 4th.  How many surveillance

           5       teams would be available on that day?

           6   A.  I'm sorry, sir.  That's not something I'm aware of.  I'm

           7       not in a position to answer that question.

           8   Q.  You don't know; who would know?

           9   A.  There's a Detective Inspector in charge of the

          10       surveillance operation centre, they may well know.

          11   Q.  The general practice is there are surveillance teams on

          12       call?

          13   A.  No, sir.  That is not the general practice.  The general

          14       practice is the SCD11 surveillance teams are the only

          15       surveillance teams, dedicated surveillance teams, to the

          16       Metropolitan Police.  We respond to demand.  Often the

          17       demand is greater than the resources that we have, so in

          18       all likelihood, if an operation came in short time,

          19       a team may have to be taken off another operation to

          20       respond to that one.  So the fact that -- there's no

          21       guarantee there would have been a spare on-call team

          22       that day.

          23   Q.  I appreciate that.  Obviously, someone else for the

          24       overall resources.  But if somebody wanted, let's take

          25       12 noon on the 4th -- any time is fairly arbitrary.  If


                                            81
 

 

 


           1       somebody wanted or required a dedicated team like yours

           2       to come on earlier, they would have to -- and they

           3       wanted it as quickly as possible, what's the procedure?

           4   A.  If we take -- let's take an example that Operation Dibri

           5       wanted a team of 12 o'clock that day.  ZZ17 would make

           6       a phone call to the surveillance operation centre and

           7       request a team.  A decision would then be made by the

           8       surveillance operation centre based on certain

           9       parameters, whether they would send a team off another

          10       operation to that particular job or not.

          11   Q.  Right.  Supposing the criteria are met, that it is

          12       an important job to be covered, so that the Inspector is

          13       reacting positively to the enquiry, can it happen --

          14       assuming there's a squad available, can it happen quite

          15       quickly?

          16   A.  That depends, sir.  If the squad are available or

          17       sitting at home, for example -- Metropolitan Police

          18       officers live all over London, the home counties, it

          19       could take two hours potentially, quite feasibly two

          20       hours to get a team from home to a briefing.

          21   Q.  That is if they are not already available?

          22   A.  Where they work, yes.

          23   Q.  In other words, if there was a team on another job not

          24       regarded as quite so important you might take them off

          25       that job?


                                            82
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  What I'm trying to get to is: we have seen quite a lot

           3       of paperwork in this case, would it require forms going

           4       all over the place or can it be done over the phone or

           5       electronically, or how is it done?

           6   A.  It can be done over the phone.

           7   Q.  It can be done over the phone, right.  The team that you

           8       had comprised eight people.  Just check on your --

           9   A.  Is that on the 4th sir?

          10   Q.  Yes, on the 4th.

          11   A.  On the paperwork you were talking about.  (Pause)

          12           Yes, sir, that's correct.

          13   Q.  Eight people.  Were you aware of any other dedicated

          14       teams that day, on the 4th?

          15   A.  No, sir.  We work -- the teams work independently of

          16       each other.

          17   Q.  So you wouldn't know if there was another dedicated

          18       team; do you mean that?

          19   A.  That's correct, sir.  Basically, the tasking system

          20       works -- this afternoon, late afternoon, I will get

          21       a phone call to tell me what my team are doing tomorrow.

          22       Each other team in the Metropolitan Police dedicates

          23       whether its team will also get a similar phone call

          24       explaining to them what they are doing tomorrow.  So we

          25       never know -- the team leaders -- we never necessarily


                                            83
 

 

 


           1       know where everyone else is.  Quite often the teams

           2       aren't even in London.

           3   Q.  Of course, would this follow, as a matter of common

           4       sense, the more notice that a Detective Inspector who

           5       has the job of assessing resources and agreeing to

           6       deployment, the more notice they have, the better?

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you very much.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          10   MR STERN:  No, thank you, sir.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern, Mr Butt, Mr Glasson, no?

          12       Mr Keith?

          13   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood?

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising.  Thank you very much.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much indeed, B17.

          17       That concludes -- I'll ask for the cameras to be turned

          18       off before you move into shot and then if you would like

          19       to leave the court.  Please do not discuss your

          20       evidence.

          21                      (The witness withdrew)

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  The next witness is going to be one of the

          23       other Trident officers, ZZ50.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  ZZ50.  Could we find ZZ50, please?

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think he's just outside.


                                            84
 

 

 


           1                         ZZ50 (affirmed)

           2                   (The witness was anonymised)

           3   A.  ZZ50, former Operation Trident, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have a seat, please.  Please, just

           5       identify your name -- can I just ask you to look at that

           6       list and see if your true name appears against --

           7   A.  Yes it is, sir, thank you.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           9                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, my name's Underwood and I'm

          11       counsel to the Inquest.  I have some questions for you

          12       so start with.

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  I want to ask you about 4 August 2011.  Were you on

          15       plain clothes duty with ZZ63 that day --

          16   A.  That's correct, sir.

          17   Q.  -- driving an unmarked police vehicle?

          18   A.  Yes, I was, sir.

          19   Q.  I want to ask you, first of all, was that a green VW

          20       van?

          21   A.  It was, yes.

          22   Q.  Did you go to Quicksilver that day?

          23   A.  I did, yes.

          24   Q.  We have heard from a number of people that there was

          25       planned to be a 6 o'clock briefing --


                                            85
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  -- then a MASTS operation from there.  What time did you

           3       go?

           4   A.  From recollection, I think it was going to be about

           5       5.30, maybe a bit later, but approximately that sort of

           6       time.

           7   Q.  We know that some intelligence came in that ZZ17 acted

           8       on by sending some people off.  Did you become aware of

           9       intelligence some time before 6 o'clock?

          10   A.  Yes, I turned up at Quicksilver, like I said, about --

          11       I can only guesstimate -- about 5.30 to 6 o'clock, I met

          12       ZZ17 in the backyard of Quicksilver and that's when he

          13       tasked me and my passenger in my car, who is ZZ63, to

          14       make our way to Vicarage Road in Leyton.

          15   Q.  So you didn't even get in the building?

          16   A.  I didn't even get in the building.

          17   Q.  Right.  Did you know why you were going to Vicarage

          18       Road?

          19   A.  Yes, I was informed that Mark Duggan was en route there

          20       to collect a gun.

          21   Q.  Did you know where he was coming from?

          22   A.  No, I didn't.

          23   Q.  What did you do?

          24   A.  I was in a green VW Transporter van.  I plumbed in the

          25       address into our sat nav and made my way there as fast


                                            86
 

 

 


           1       as I could.

           2   Q.  Using sirens and lights?

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  Did you get there?

           5   A.  Yes, I did.

           6   Q.  Where did you park?

           7   A.  I cannot recall exactly.  I've looked on a map and

           8       I knew I was one street away or two streets away.  It

           9       was either Melbourne Road or Whitney Road, which is

          10       roads that are parallel to Vicarage Road.

          11   Q.  Why choose that?

          12   A.  My role was to deploy the OP van, observation point van,

          13       in the event that there was a static plot, as opposed to

          14       a mobile surveillance.  Vicarage Road is a one-way

          15       street, so I parked there so that if I was required

          16       I could drive down Vicarage and deploy the vehicle.

          17   Q.  Can you unravel a built for us?

          18   A.  Sorry.

          19   Q.  What would a static plot have involved?

          20   A.  For example, if Mr Duggan had got out of the taxi, gone

          21       into an address and had been in the address for

          22       a significant period of time, rather than having

          23       an officer sat in a car watching the address, we would

          24       put the van in, which is a more covert method of

          25       controlling the premises.


                                            87
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Could you have used officers on foot then or would you

           2       just have used the van?

           3   A.  We would have put the van in because the van is

           4       a non-descript green van, it looks like any other

           5       builder's van, or anything like that, and rather than

           6       having someone just standing round hanging around on

           7       a street corner which could get noticed, we would put

           8       the van in.

           9   Q.  Right.  So having parked up, were you listening to the

          10       radio?

          11   A.  I was, yes, sir.

          12   Q.  What happened?

          13   A.  I cannot recall how long I was there for.  I think

          14       I have estimated between 5 and 25 minutes, I cannot

          15       recall the exact timings.  I was aware that ZZ37 had

          16       seen a minicab coming down Vicarage Road because he put

          17       that over the radio.  He gave a registration, again

          18       I didn't make a note of it because I was -- I was

          19       driving the vehicle -- I was not driving at the time

          20       I was stationary, but I did not make a note of it, and

          21       there was just a running commentary from ZZ37 about the

          22       vehicle's movement.

          23   Q.  Right.  Did there come a point when the vehicle came

          24       your way?

          25   A.  It didn't come my way.  Vicarage Road obviously is


                                            88
 

 

 


           1       a one-way street travelling north to south.  The vehicle

           2       went in the opposite direction from where I was and then

           3       went down a series of roads and then started travelling

           4       north again.

           5           I was parked up in either Melbourne Road or Whitney

           6       Road facing north, the junction with Lea Bridge Road,

           7       I followed the commentary, I've done a left onto Lea

           8       Bridge Road and gone up to the junction and then tucked

           9       myself in at the back of the follow.

          10   Q.  So how many vehicles were you behind the minicab at that

          11       point?

          12   A.  When I've eventually got behind it, I would say between

          13       10 to 15, maybe more.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you see the minicab then?

          15   A.  At times, sir.  Sometimes when we were going round bends

          16       I would clip the rear of it or when we were on the

          17       straight road I would it in the distance but I was never

          18       more than, I would say, about 10 to 15 vehicles behind

          19       it.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  We know that state amber and then state red

          21       were called.

          22   A.  That's correct.

          23   Q.  Were you aware of that?

          24   A.  Yes, I was.

          25   Q.  Did you see the stop?


                                            89
 

 

 


           1   A.  I didn't see the stop.  From my position, I was aware

           2       obviously state amber had been called.  The CO19

           3       vehicles had overtaken me.  I could then see obviously

           4       a conversion of vehicles.  I could not see what

           5       happened.  I just pulled over to the side and that's

           6       where I pretty much stopped there.

           7   Q.  Did you hear anything at around the time of the stop?

           8   A.  Yes, I heard two gunshots, or what I believed to be

           9       gunshots.

          10   Q.  What did you do then?

          11   A.  I got out of the vehicle, ZZ17 was running down the road

          12       from the area where the stop was and shouted out to call

          13       HEMS, which is the air ambulance.  I then got on the

          14       phone and dialled 999.

          15   Q.  Okay.  Did you move towards the scene at any stage?

          16   A.  I think when I was on the phone, I was wandering around

          17       talking to the operator and looking round.  So, yes, I

          18       did look around when I was wandering around, yes.

          19   Q.  Did you have anything to do with the cordons?

          20   A.  I called up -- I created what's called a CAD message,

          21       which is computer aided dispatch.  It's a way of

          22       requesting additional resources to the scene, so

          23       I called up and requested local units to arrive and when

          24       they arrived I directed them to put cordons in but

          25       I didn't put any cordons in myself.


                                            90
 

 

 


           1   Q.  We've heard from Z51 that he asked you, in essence, to

           2       be his loggist; is that right?

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  If we look briefly at CD663, which should come up on the

           5       screen, you may have it?

           6   A.  I've got a hard copy.

           7   Q.  It will come up on the screen in a moment.

           8   A.  Thank you.

           9   Q.  This is a typed, redacted copy, it's said.  I am not

          10       entirely sure who typed or redacted it.  But you made

          11       notes in ZZ50's book, did you?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  Sorry, Z51's book?

          14   A.  It's my book.

          15   Q.  It's your book, sorry?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  We can see these are in no particular order.  Can you

          18       tell us how that came about?

          19   A.  Literally, I started it with my call to 999, requesting

          20       HEMS.  Then, as I was with him, Z51 would tell me "I've

          21       phoned this person at this time, this person at this

          22       time, this was done at this time".  So I was just

          23       literally filling in things as he was stating them to

          24       me, so that's why there's no timed chronological order.

          25   Q.  Right.


                                            91
 

 

 


           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.  That's all I want to

           2       ask you but other people may have more questions.

           3   A.  Thank you, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes?

           5                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           6   MR MANSFIELD:  As we are just dealing with that, could we go

           7       back to CD663, it's up on the screen, the jury have the

           8       page open.

           9           Sorry, I should introduce myself.  I'm Michael

          10       Mansfield, I'm representing the family of Mark Duggan.

          11   A.  Thank you, sir.

          12   Q.  This is a typed and redacted copy; was the original

          13       handwritten?

          14   A.  Yes, it was, sir.

          15   Q.  But essentially, other than the redactions where

          16       something is overscribed in black, was there anything

          17       else in the original notes that's not here typed up?

          18   A.  (Pause)  Not that I'm aware, sir, no.  I have

          19       a photocopy of my notes here and -- not that I'm aware

          20       of.

          21   Q.  You are looking at the original notes, are you?

          22   A.  I have a photocopy of the original -- the original was

          23       obviously handed to the IPCC.

          24   Q.  Yes, all right.  You have a photocopy of the original

          25       there?


                                            92
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  We're being very careful about checking what comes out

           3       after somebody's retyped or typed.  So, so far as you

           4       can tell -- and I would like you to check it over lunch

           5       if you wouldn't mind --

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  -- is the typed version the same as the handwritten

           8       other than the two black redactions?  (Pause)

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I will also check it over lunch too.

          10   MR MANSFIELD:  I won't take up more time at the moment.

          11       Perhaps you could do a double-check on this document.

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  May I also indicate, for the purposes after lunch, if we

          14       could have available -- I think they were originally

          15       available -- one of the -- I'm afraid it's another map,

          16       but it's timed at 17.40.  So I'll introduce that at

          17       2 o'clock.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In which case, it's obviously

          19       convenient for us to have a short break at this point.

          20       So I'll ask for the cameras to be turned off, please.

          21           Members of the jury, if you would be kind enough to

          22       leave us when you're ready and be ready for a 2 o'clock

          23       start, please.

 

 

 

                                            93
 

 

 


          20   (1.03 pm)

          21                     (The short adjournment)

          22   (2.00 pm)

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  We have the cameras off, so

          24       please could we have the jury in.

          25                  (In the presence of the jury)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                            94
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We will have

           2       the witness back, please.

           3             (The witness return the into the court)

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We now have ZZ50 back in the witness

           5       box so the cameras can be turned on upstairs, and we can

           6       continue the questioning from Mr Michael Mansfield.

           7           You have your document that you were referring to

           8       shortly before the break?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          11           Yes, Mr Mansfield?

          12   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes, thank you.  Could we have the day book

          13       back up on screen, as the jury haven't got it as

          14       a document, I am not asking that they do have it.  It's

          15       CD663, the typed up version, and you have obviously

          16       checked against the handwritten.  Just a couple of

          17       questions on this.

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Were you, as it were, shadowing Z51 once he said "Can

          20       you make a note, you're my loggist" or how did it work?

          21   A.  Yes, pretty much.  After I had made the relevant

          22       phone calls he just said to me "Stick with me and write

          23       down certain things", and he would just say "Such and

          24       such a time spoke to this person, such and such a time

          25       this happened", and I was literally just --


                                            95
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Right.  Now, would it be fair to say, looking at --

           2       I appreciate it's all written in slightly out of order,

           3       so that the earliest time you've got down in fact is two

           4       thirds of the way down the list.  18.13 is the earliest

           5       time but it's actually not in that order.  Do you start

           6       writing here at about the time of the first entry which

           7       is 18.14?

           8   A.  That's correct, sir.  It would have been after I made

           9       the 999 call.

          10   Q.  After the call, yes, right.  Thereafter, as you put

          11       it -- or I put it to you and you've agreed -- you are

          12       pretty well sticking by him.

          13           There is just one thing therefore I want to ask you.

          14       Did you see Z51 find anything of significance?

          15   A.  I wasn't with him when he found anything of

          16       significance, no.

          17   Q.  I think you know what I'm talking about.

          18   A.  Yes, I do, sir.

          19   Q.  Did you hear an officer, I don't know whether you know

          20       them all -- I'll put an acronym to him: V59?  Look on

          21       the list.  If it wasn't him, someone else?  Have you got

          22       V59 -- do you know who V59 is?

          23   A.  I've got the list sir.

          24   Q.  Do you know him?

          25   A.  I don't know him personally, no.


                                            96
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Leave it aside then.  Did you hear anyone saying words

           2       to the effect "Where's the gun, where's the gun?" or "We

           3       can't find the gun"?

           4   A.  No, I didn't.

           5   Q.  You didn't hear any of that?  You are not with Z51 when,

           6       as he says, he finds a gun?

           7   A.  That's correct, sir.

           8   Q.  But were you still at the scene when it was suggested

           9       that he had found one?

          10   A.  Yes, I believe so, sir, because I was aware that there

          11       was officers standing on the grass area, which would

          12       signify that --

          13   Q.  That's later.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  That's later.  What I want to ask you is, if you can

          16       help us, why there's no entry on your day book,

          17       shadowing him, about a phone call he says he was making

          18       at 6.20 -- we know the time from when he was

          19       photographed -- 6.20 to the SIO, and he sees the gun;

          20       why is there no entry here?

          21   A.  I can't explain, sir.  Maybe it was a case of I wasn't

          22       with him at that time.  I'm not sure when I started

          23       shadowing him, time-wise.

          24   Q.  I did ask you carefully --

          25   A.  No, no, I was with him, sir.  I don't know what time


                                            97
 

 

 


           1       I started shadowing him.  I know I made my note of the

           2       999 call when I made the 999 call.  Whether I was with

           3       him 10 minutes later or 15 minutes after I made the 999

           4       call.  At some stage whilst I was there he said "Stick

           5       with me, make these notes".

           6   Q.  I did ask you carefully at the beginning whether really

           7       once you started making the notes, and you agreed, after

           8       that -- "pretty well" was the word you used -- "Pretty

           9       well, I stuck with him".

          10   A.  When he asked me to, yes, I did stick with him.

          11   Q.  That would have been when he asked you to be the

          12       loggist.

          13   A.  Yes, but the first notes I've made is when I've made

          14       notes of what I've done.

          15   Q.  18.14, who is that?

          16   A.  18.14 is the 999 call I made.

          17   Q.  What else at 18.14?

          18   A.  I've also phoned reserve but the call didn't connect.

          19   Q.  "Z50 informed about shooting."

          20   A.  That's later on, sir, that's -- times that were thrown

          21       out to me out of sequence.

          22   Q.  Sorry, I hope we're looking at the same bit.

          23   A.  Yes, 18.14 --

          24   Q.  "Z50 informed about shooting."

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                            98
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Who did that, who did the informing?

           2   A.  That would have been Z51.

           3   Q.  Exactly, so that is an act by Z51 --

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  -- timed at 18.14?

           6   A.  It's timed, sir -- Z51 went through his phone and was

           7       telling me times of calls that he'd made.  I was not

           8       with him when he was making a lot of the calls at the

           9       early stages.

          10   Q.  I understand that.  You may not actually be sticking so

          11       close that you are right behind him all the time,

          12       I appreciate that.

          13   A.  Right sir.

          14   Q.  When he's going through his phone saying "It's 18.14 for

          15       this", it's apparent that he obviously does not say to

          16       you "At 18.20 I was phoning the SIO when I saw a gun",

          17       did he?

          18   A.  He never said to me, no.

          19   Q.  He never said that.  Right, then I want to go back to

          20       an earlier stage and ask for your help, please.

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  Could be distributed please -- I think it will become

          23       C14.  It's another map but it's one of those in

          24       a series -- there won't be one in there, it's just

          25       coming around and the jury will have it.  It's


                                            99
 

 

 


           1       a continuation of an earlier one, same idea.  (Handed)

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           3   MR MANSFIELD:  I think this will become C14.  I am just

           4       pausing for a moment because the jury have seen

           5       an earlier one where it's freeze framed, as it were, at

           6       5.15.  This one is at 17.40 and you will see places

           7       marked that you will be familiar with.  The Quicksilver

           8       base at Wood Green is on the top left-hand side of the

           9       box.

          10   A.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  Then Vicarage Road, Burchell Road area, is on the

          12       right-hand side, Kevin Hutchinson-Foster, and then Mark

          13       Duggan down the bottom.  He's in a minicab and this is

          14       where he got to, it has been worked out, at 5.40; do you

          15       follow?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  I appreciate the difficulty of recollecting times.  When

          18       was it do you think that you left Wood Green?

          19   A.  My best guess would be about 5.30, give or take

          20       10/15 minutes, really.

          21   Q.  Yes, all right.  We know the intelligence about this

          22       comes through at 5.20, so it's got to be after that.

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  All right, I won't pin you to a minute.  I want your

          25       help.  There is a reason, which I'll come to.  Can you


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           1       now help as to the route you used to get to Vicarage

           2       Road area?

           3   A.  That's something I have thought about, and I'm not --

           4   Q.  Would it help if I just indicate two main roads on this

           5       one?

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  If you look above the two squares in the south-east

           8       corner, as it were, these two, there's a road going

           9       diagonally above them; do you see that?

          10   A.  Yes, I do.

          11   Q.  That's Lea Bridge.

          12   A.  That's correct.

          13   Q.  If your eyes cast further up the plan there's another

          14       main road going across the flats, as it were, there --

          15       I mean the flat ground.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  That's Ferry Lane.  Then there's Blackhorse Tube, and so

          18       on.  That gives you some bearing, and we see where

          19       Wood Green is.  Can you tell us whether you went the

          20       Ferry Lane route and then cut down south or you went the

          21       Lea Bridge Road route?

          22   A.  I think I went the Lea Bridge Road.

          23   Q.  Right.  So if you left Wood Green in that time bracket

          24       you've given, 5.30 to 5.40, and it takes you how long to

          25       get over there, over to Vicarage Road: 10/15 minutes?


                                           101
 

 

 


           1   A.  I would assume so, sir, I cannot be sure.

           2   Q.  You're going fast?

           3   A.  Oh, yes I had my blue lights and two tones.

           4   Q.  Blue lights on, on the van?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  The reason I'm asking you, and it may be that it's

           7       occurred to you as well, is that Mark Duggan has

           8       recorded a message; are you aware of this?

           9   A.  I am, yes.

          10   Q.  So the jury can, as it were, tie it in, they have seen

          11       it, I think, once today, and it's on the timeline --

          12       I am not asking that you see it but for the jury it's

          13       page 4, entry 25, 17.59.  He sends out a message:

          14           "Watch out for a Green VW."

          15           Well, that green VW is you?

          16   A.  That's correct, sir.

          17   Q.  If you're travelling along the Lea Bridge Road and it

          18       just so happens he's travelling along the Lea Bridge

          19       Road, that might be how he's managed to clock, as it

          20       were, your existence.

          21   A.  Yes, sir, I think that's possibly what did happen, yes.

          22   Q.  Yes.  But it's not just a green van, it's Trident,

          23       according to the message he left.

          24   A.  Yes.  How he knew it was Trident, I've no idea.  There's

          25       no badges on the side.


                                           102
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I appreciate you have not got a sign saying what you

           2       are.  That really would destroy the objection of the

           3       exercise.  Can I move on, actually, in terms of

           4       observation because you were going -- because -- in case

           5       you were needed for static surveillance.

           6   A.  That's correct, sir.

           7   Q.  You can set that up relatively quickly, can't you, just

           8       drive the van into whatever road you need to be in?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  But you have to be careful not to be noticed driving

          11       into the road and not getting out of the van.  I don't

          12       want to know how you do it but -- do you follow me,

          13       you've got to be careful?

          14   A.  Yes, I do, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  If somebody says "We need you in such and such a road",

          16       you drive there carefully?

          17   A.  Yes I could potentially pull in, yes.

          18   Q.  There are other ways -- and really I am not trying to

          19       reveal anything that's sensitive, hopefully -- but there

          20       are other ways in which you can set up static

          21       observation quite quickly, aren't there?

          22   A.  I don't know what you're referring to.  Are you talking

          23       about on foot?

          24   Q.  Yes.

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  One of them is obviously having somebody standing in the

           2       street but that could be a bit tricky --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- if they had to stand around for a long time.  It's

           5       better if you can go in some premises, isn't it?

           6   A.  Premises is an option.

           7   Q.  Yes.  To be honest, I've forgotten the name or the term

           8       that it's given, but basically a fixed observation post

           9       can be set up in a street, particularly a residential

          10       street, if in fact you can get the consent of

          11       a householder to sit in their front room or something

          12       like that?

          13   A.  I think it's an R v Johnson, sir.

          14   Q.  An R v Johnson, yes.  I won't ask more because there may

          15       be an objection to knowing what that is.  However,

          16       an R v Johnson, so you go into somebody's house and you

          17       can sit there and watch what's going on but there are

          18       yet other ways, aren't there?

          19   A.  Yes, there are other ways.

          20   Q.  I'm not going to go into them, there are just other ways

          21       of doing it?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  Is this something you particularly commonly do, the

          24       static bit, or you just go to whatever you have to?

          25   A.  It depends on particular roles that are allocated.  For


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           1       that particular day, I was allocated to be in charge of

           2       the van.  On other days, it may be other officers.

           3   Q.  All right.

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  All right, thank you very much for your help.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Thomas?

           6                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           7   MR THOMAS:  I represent the loved ones of Mark Duggan.

           8       I just have one matter for you, if I may.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  I wonder if we could just call up your witness statement

          11       at page 21.  This is your witness statement you did on

          12       4 August.

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  Thank you.  It's up on the screen.  This is right, isn't

          15       it, that despite the fact that you were at the scene at

          16       Ferry Lane --

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  -- you didn't just do a four-line witness statement; you

          19       did a witness statement dealing with your dealings on

          20       the day, of your observations, and going to the scene;

          21       that's right, isn't it?

          22   A.  Yes, my statement on 4 August is -- yes.

          23   Q.  So unlike -- well, the last witness, unlike other

          24       officers, you did your statement on the day -- there

          25       isn't a subsequent statement from you, is there?


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           1   A.  There is a statement dated 25/6 and that was as a result

           2       of a letter from the Coroner requesting me to ascertain

           3       questions.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This year?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   MR THOMAS:  What I'm asking you about is at the time, back in

           7       2011 --

           8   A.  Yes, that is the only statement I completed.

           9   Q.  This was the statement you made.  You didn't take the

          10       option, as it were, of waiting for two or three days

          11       before you made your witness statement?

          12   A.  No, I didn't.

          13   Q.  Do you follow what I'm asking you?

          14   A.  Yes, I do.

          15   Q.  That's the first point.  Secondly, this: can I just ask

          16       us to look at the second paragraph.  Could the second

          17       paragraph be blown up?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Can I read it, the jury don't have it in front of

          20       them:

          21           "As I drove onto Ferry Lane I saw several unmarked

          22       police vehicles overtake my vehicle and the vehicles

          23       driven by ZZ46 and ZZ75.  These vehicles that overtook

          24       us then stopped a gold vehicle on Ferry Lane."

          25           That's the minicab, isn't it?


                                           106
 

 

 


           1   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  "As I was sat in my vehicle I heard two shots and got

           3       out of my vehicle.  I did not see who had fired the

           4       shots as my view was obscured by a bus shelter."

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  The bus shelter that we're talking about -- I wonder if

           7       we can call up one still of the scene, with the bus

           8       shelter in, I just want to show the jury this.  If we've

           9       got one from across the road looking across.  No?  Okay.

          10           Well, I think we saw the bus shelter yesterday in

          11       the video, the section of video that we were watching.

          12       You weren't in court yesterday?

          13   A.  I wasn't, no, sir.

          14   Q.  I wonder if we could just put up the video that we were

          15       watching yesterday.

          16           In fact, the jury were handed a bundle of

          17       photographs yesterday, numbered 1 to 14.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's in your --

          19   MR THOMAS:  It's either C12 or C13.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  C13.

          21   MR THOMAS:  If you look at photograph 14, the very last

          22       photograph on that.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The last photograph in that: 14.

          24   MR THOMAS:  We can see it up on the screen now.  Thank you,

          25       Mr Scott.


                                           107
 

 

 


           1           I wonder if Mr Scott would be kind enough to wiggle

           2       the mouse over where the bus stop is so we can see it.

           3       That's the bus shelter, yes?

           4   A.  That's correct, yes.

           5   Q.  That's what you are referring to?

           6   A.  Yes, it is.

           7   Q.  That's where your vehicle stops?

           8   A.  No, my vehicle is further on down the road but when

           9       I was looking up the road the whole section of pavement

          10       was obscured by that bus shelter from where I was.

          11   Q.  I follow.  In any event, if I could finish this: what

          12       you say then, as you were sat in your vehicle you heard

          13       two shots, you got out of your vehicle, you didn't see

          14       who had fired the shots because your view was

          15       obscured --

          16   A.  Yes, that's right.

          17   Q.  -- but the only thing you heard was two shots.

          18   A.  I only noted two shots, yes.

          19   MR THOMAS:  That's all.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern?  Mr Butt?

          21                       Questions by MR BUTT

          22   MR BUTT:  I ask questions on behalf of Z51.  Could we look,

          23       please --

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Remember to press the button.

          25   MR BUTT:  So sorry.  Thank you.


                                           108
 

 

 


           1           Document 6078.

           2   A.  Do I have that?

           3   Q.  This is, in fact, a redacted copy of your handwritten

           4       note you made at the scene, isn't it?

           5   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  The first entry, 18.14, "999 call HEMS".  That's you

           7       recording something that you've done; is that right?

           8   A.  That's correct.  That's why I've put, unfortunately, my

           9       name on it, which has not been redacted.

          10   Q.  I will take it off the screen.  The second entry, 18.23:

          11           "CAD created for local units."

          12   A.  That's correct.  That's something I did as well.

          13   Q.  That's what, sorry?

          14   A.  That's something I did as well.

          15   Q.  Then there's a non-chronological entry, 18.14, "Fiona

          16       Mallon", we do know her name, "informed about shooting"?

          17       That obviously is something that you've recorded because

          18       you saw that time from Z51's phone; is that right?

          19   A.  That's something he told me to record.

          20   Q.  Yes.  Given the order of these two things, something you

          21       did at 18.14, you did at 18.23 and then a note of

          22       something that Z51 had done at 18.14, does it follow

          23       from that that you must have begun recording Z51's

          24       actions after 18.23?

          25   A.  Yes, I would probably say that's possibly a good


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           1       estimation.  I cannot recall exactly but possibly, yes.

           2   Q.  But you probably write it down in order of what you did,

           3       then what you did, and then after that Z51 asked you to

           4       record some times.

           5   A.  Yes, possibly I cannot recall exactly but --

           6   Q.  Have you seen what's been called the BBC footage?  It's

           7       a video of a number of police officers moving around in

           8       the area of the bus stop shortly after the shooting of

           9       Mark Duggan?

          10   A.  No, I haven't seen that, no.

          11   Q.  One of the things that can be seen in the video, and it

          12       might that it would help if you do watch it, is we can

          13       see Z51 go behind the railings into a grassy area and we

          14       know that happened at about 6.20.  Were you with him

          15       when he did that?

          16   A.  I didn't go onto the grass area, no.

          17   Q.  So he must have done that before you were sticking with

          18       him and working with him?

          19   A.  Yes, I would say so, sir.

          20   MR BUTT:  Thank you very much.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Butt.

          22           Ms Leek?  No.  Mr Glasson?  No.  Mr Keith?

          23           Right, back to Mr Underwood.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising, thank you very much.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I've no questions.  Thank you


                                           110
 

 

 


           1       very much.

           2           That completes your evidence, ZZ50.  You are free to

           3       go.  Please do not discuss the case with anybody.

           4           I'll ask for the cameras now to be turned off.  They

           5       have been, thank you.

           6                      (The witness withdrew)

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can we go to ZZ63 next, sir?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you.  Do we have ZZ63,

           9       please?

          10                         ZZ63 (affirmed)

          11                   (The witness was anonymised)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you would

          13       like to have a seat, please, firstly.

          14   A.  Thank you, sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then we will turn the cameras on

          16       which has now been done.  Then Mr Underwood can go to

          17       the next stage.

          18                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, my name's Underwood and I'm

          20       counsel to the Inquest.  I have some questions for you.

          21           First of all, if you would kindly look at that

          22       laminated list and scan down to ZZ63 and look at the

          23       name against it.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Is that you?


                                           111
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, it is, sir.

           2   Q.  Thank you very much.

           3           I think that on 4 August of 2011 you were on duty as

           4       a Trident officer in company with ZZ50; is that right?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  Were you due to attend a briefing at 6 o'clock of

           7       Quicksilver?

           8   A.  Correct, yes.

           9   Q.  What happened?

          10   A.  We were on the way to Quicksilver.  When we arrived

          11       there we were given further information by ZZ17 to make

          12       our way over to the Leyton area.

          13   Q.  Right.  Did you get any further into Quicksilver than

          14       the car park?

          15   A.  No, we didn't, sir.

          16   Q.  Were you told to go to a place in Leyton?

          17   A.  Vicarage Road.

          18   Q.  Right.  To Vicarage Road or to the Vicarage Road area?

          19   A.  The vicinity of the Vicarage Road area.

          20   Q.  Were you told what the purpose of you going there was at

          21       that stage?

          22   A.  At that stage, from what I can recall, we were told that

          23       it was believed that Mr Duggan was in a minicab en route

          24       to the Vicarage Road area to collect a firearm.

          25   Q.  Right.  Did you know where he was en route from?


                                           112
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I didn't.

           2   Q.  So, using the blues and twos, did you get across to that

           3       area?

           4   A.  Yes, we did.

           5   Q.  Can you recall where you parked up?

           6   A.  I believe that we parked up very close by to Vicarage

           7       Road, we didn't actually enter Vicarage Road.  It was

           8       maybe one or two streets away.

           9   Q.  Did you get anymore intelligence while you were en route

          10       about where to go?

          11   A.  Only from what I've said already, that we believed

          12       that -- or the intelligence which I was given was that

          13       Mark Duggan was en route to the Vicarage Road area and

          14       it was believed that he was going to collect a firearm.

          15   Q.  So having parked up, what happened next?

          16   A.  We were parked where we were for a period of time, maybe

          17       ten minutes, maybe longer.  Then I heard over the radio

          18       that a minicab had been seen and that it was being

          19       followed by other Trident officers.

          20   Q.  Was that ZZ37 sending that or was that ZZ --

          21   A.  Yes, it would be ZZ37.

          22   Q.  Right.  Did you then move off?

          23   A.  Yes, we did.

          24   Q.  Was the minicab in sight when you moved off?

          25   A.  No, it wasn't.


                                           113
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Were you getting a radio commentary?

           2   A.  Yes, we were.

           3   Q.  From ZZ46 by this stage?

           4   A.  It varied between 37 and 46.

           5   Q.  Did you hear amber being called?

           6   A.  I did.

           7   Q.  And red?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Did you see the hard stop?

          10   A.  I didn't see the hard stop.  I saw the armed vehicles

          11       overtake our vehicle and go in front of the minicab and

          12       that's as much as I saw of the stop.

          13   Q.  Did you see anything immediately after the stop?

          14   A.  No, I didn't.

          15   Q.  Did you hear anything around the time of the stop?

          16   A.  Yes.  When we stopped our vehicle and I got out of our

          17       vehicle, I heard two bangs.

          18   Q.  What did you do?

          19   A.  When I've heard the two loud bangs, I walked over to

          20       where I could see armed CO19 officers along with Trident

          21       officers next to the minicab.  I could see a male on the

          22       floor and I could see the CO19 officers giving CPR to

          23       the man on the floor.

          24   Q.  Did you take any action?

          25   A.  As I've walked over, it would have been ZZ17 was asking


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           1       for an officer to contact HEMS, the helicopter

           2       basically.  The officer I was with, ZZ50, then got his

           3       mobile phone out and was making a phone call.  This is

           4       whilst we are still walking over to where the 19

           5       officers were with the male on the floor.

           6           As we were doing this, I noticed members of the

           7       public who were walking from the Jarrow Road sort of

           8       side of where the grass is, who were walking towards --

           9       to see what was happening.  I've immediately gone over

          10       to them and started basically to usher them back away

          11       from what was happening.

          12   Q.  Were any of those using cameras?

          13   A.  They were.  I can't recall whether -- what time they

          14       were using cameras but whilst ushering the people back

          15       I was aware that there was cameras.

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you.  That's all the questioning I've

          17       got.  Other people may have questions.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Mansfield?

          19                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes, just a couple please.

          21           The first question is: en route away from the

          22       Vicarage Road vicinity back towards Ferry Lane -- I just

          23       want to ask you about that.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  Once you're on the main road, as opposed to the side


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           1       roads, heading north towards Blackhorse Road and then

           2       along towards Ferry Lane -- this is about, as we know,

           3       just after 6 o'clock -- what was the traffic like that

           4       day do you remember?

           5   A.  The traffic I would describe as heavy.  It was busy, it

           6       was rush hour.

           7   Q.  Heavy.  I know it sounds obvious but it means you've got

           8       buses, motorcycles, cyclists, pedestrians along that

           9       main road leading to Ferry Lane?

          10   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.

          11   Q.  Now, the other question I want to ask you is: you see

          12       people on the grassy area and you had only been there,

          13       what, a few -- you had only arrived and what, after

          14       a couple of minutes you start doing that?

          15   A.  It would have been sooner than that.

          16   Q.  Almost as soon as you got out?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Then we've seen the picture, so we know roughly what

          19       you're talking about.  Do you stay in that area to keep

          20       the public back?

          21   A.  What I've done initially is to try and usher people back

          22       and then I've tried to push them back as far as I could

          23       go.  So I've -- from that area, all I have done is

          24       basically moved further and further forwards towards the

          25       Jarrow Road side of things.  So I've tried to extend the


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           1       cordon, as such.  I have not gone back to where things

           2       were happening.

           3   Q.  No.  Well, I ask you this simple question: did you see

           4       a time when anyone found a gun?

           5   A.  No, I didn't, sir.

           6   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Thomas?

           8                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           9   MR THOMAS:  Just a couple of questions.  You were partnered

          10       up with ZZ50 when you arrived at Ferry Lane; is that

          11       right?  You were in the same vehicle?

          12   A.  We were in the same vehicle, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  I wonder if we can just put your witness statement up on

          14       screen at page 19.  That's CS19, please.

          15           Now, just a couple of things in your witness

          16       statement.  Firstly this --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you want it slightly bigger?

          18   MR THOMAS:  Can you see this is your witness statement?

          19   A.  Yes, I can see.

          20   Q.  The first thing to note about your witness statement is

          21       you made a fairly detailed statement as to what your

          22       role was actually on the 4th, didn't you?  We can see

          23       that in the statement, you say what you were doing and

          24       you deal with Ferry Lane, you deal with the shooting and

          25       you deal with what you hear; do you see that?


                                           117
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  Just to put this in context, at the time you made your

           3       statement on the 4th, you had seen Mark Duggan, you had

           4       seen the fact that he had been shot and was being worked

           5       on at the scene; that is correct, isn't it?

           6   A.  I could not say that the person on the floor was Mark

           7       Duggan.

           8   Q.  Fine.

           9   A.  There was a male on the floor.  I was too far away to

          10       see.

          11   Q.  I understand that now but the point I'm putting to you

          12       is that you saw there was a man on the floor being

          13       resuscitated?

          14   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  We now know that to be Mark Duggan.

          16   A.  Correct.

          17   Q.  But nevertheless, despite that, you still made your

          18       first statement at a time when the events were fresh in

          19       your mind, on 4 August, correct?

          20   A.  Correct.

          21   Q.  Let me move on to one more point, and this is my last

          22       point.  Can we just look at the second paragraph of your

          23       statement, please?  This deals with the actual hard

          24       stop.  You know what I mean by "hard stop", yes?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                           118
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You say this, I'm taking it up by the first line of the

           2       second paragraph:

           3           "Whilst following the vehicle we drove into Ferry

           4       Lane when I saw a number of unmarked Trojan vehicles

           5       overtake us.  They overtook our convoy and then saw them

           6       stop a gold-coloured minicab.  Myself and ZZ50 got out

           7       of our vehicle and it was at this point that I heard two

           8       loud bangs."

           9           Pause there.  You have recorded, as accurately --

          10       when the events were fresh in your mind exactly what you

          11       heard at the point of the hard stop; is that correct?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Two loud bangs?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  That was it?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   MR THOMAS:  Thank you.  That's all I ask.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At the time that you heard those you

          19       were out of your van?

          20   A.  I think, sir, literally we had parked.  As I've opened

          21       the door to get out, I'm actually out, I have not closed

          22       the door yet when I've heard the bangs, it was almost

          23       immediately as I've stepped out.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The hard stop had happened some

          25       distance in front of you, had it not?


                                           119
 

 

 


           1   A.  It had, sir, yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Your van had stopped, taken your

           3       belt off, or whatever you do --

           4   A.  Correct.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- open the door, get out and then

           6       you hear the bangs?

           7   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Stern?

           9                      Questions by MR STERN

          10   MR STERN:  Can I just ask, how far away were you, please,

          11       from the stop?

          12   A.  From the stop?  30 to 40 yards.

          13   Q.  As much as that?

          14   A.  It was -- when we were behind the minicab we were always

          15       between 10 and 12, 14 cars.

          16   Q.  When the armed officers got out of the cars -- did you

          17       see them get out of the cars?

          18   A.  I didn't see them get out of cars.

          19   Q.  Did you hear anything at that point?

          20   A.  I didn't, no.

          21   Q.  The first thing you heard was the shots?

          22   A.  Correct.

          23   Q.  You heard nothing at all before then?

          24   A.  No.

          25   Q.  The other area I wanted to ask you about is this: could


                                           120
 

 

 


           1       you just have a look, please, at the jury bundle at C10.

           2       If you could look, please, at page 775.  We understand

           3       that you were in a green VW Transporter van; is that

           4       right?

           5   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are we looking -- what reference did

           7       you give us?  You gave us C10.

           8   MR STERN:  I see C11 is up on the --

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  C11.

          10   MR STERN:  Yes.  If I said the wrong one, I'm sorry.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are just testing us!

          12   MR STERN:  Did you at any point on this journey see the

          13       minicab that Mark Duggan was in?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Where was that, please?

          16   A.  Sorry, I can't really see the map, I'm afraid.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have a look in the jury bundle

          18       behind C11, it might be better if you look at it in hard

          19       copy form.

          20   MR STERN:  I think also if you move the clip at the top of

          21       the ring binder you'll find it easier to move the

          22       documents.  That's it.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the one.

          24   A.  Okay, sorry.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have a look at that, just get your


                                           121
 

 

 


           1       bearings on that, see the route that's marked on there.

           2       You see Lea Bridge Road?

           3   A.  It would have been -- again, I cannot see the road name

           4       but it would not have been the Lea Bridge Road, it would

           5       have been the road leading off the Lea Bridge Road, the

           6       main road.

           7   MR STERN:  Could you speak up a little bit because I had

           8       trouble hearing you there.

           9   A.  Sorry.  The first time I recall seeing the minicab would

          10       have been the road which is -- is it Markhouse Road?

          11   Q.  Markhouse Road?

          12   A.  Yes, it wasn't Lea Bridge Road it would be Markhouse

          13       road.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Going up north, is it?

          15   A.  Going north.

          16   MR STERN:  So that is going away from Vicarage Road, in

          17       other words it had been to Vicarage Road and it's on its

          18       way.

          19   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  You hadn't seen it before then and you hadn't been in

          21       its sight before then?

          22   A.  All I can say is that I had not seen that car before

          23       then.  I couldn't tell you whether we'd been in sight of

          24       that vehicle.  I don't know what route that minicab

          25       took.


                                           122
 

 

 


           1   Q.  The route is marked for you on this drawing, which is

           2       why I'm drawing it to your attention.

           3   A.  I don't believe so then, sir.

           4   Q.  Were you going in the same direction as the minicab?

           5   A.  Yes --

           6   Q.  I presume you were?

           7   A.  Yes, we were, yes.

           8   Q.  About how many cars were you behind it?

           9   A.  Between about 10 and 12, it is quite a distance.

          10   Q.  As you say, you don't have a sign or anything saying

          11       Trident.

          12   A.  No, no, sir, we don't.

          13   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Mr Butt?

          15                       Questions by MR BUTT

          16   MR BUTT:  You're aware of what principal officers are in

          17       firearms operations, aren't you?

          18   A.  Yes, I am, sir.

          19   Q.  They are officers who are involved in using force to

          20       discharge firearms and those who may have been directly

          21       involved in the decision to use force, aren't they?

          22   A.  Correct, yes.

          23   Q.  You were not a principal officer, were you?

          24   A.  No, I wasn't.

          25   Q.  It's principal officers who are then supposed to have


                                           123
 

 

 


           1       legal and medical advice before making a statement,

           2       isn't it?

           3   A.  I believe so, yes.

           4   Q.  It is often the case that principal officers should wait

           5       for around about 48 hours before making a full witness

           6       statement, isn't it?

           7   A.  I'm not aware of the formal procedure or protocols, sir,

           8       in regard to this.

           9   Q.  In the event, that wouldn't apply to you because you

          10       weren't a principal officer, were you?

          11   A.  Again, without being an expert in the protocol of what

          12       happens after an incident like this takes place -- this

          13       is the first incident I've personally been involved

          14       in -- I could not comment on what the protocol is.

          15   MR BUTT:  Thank you very much.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?  Ms Dobbin?  Mr Keith?

          17   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood.

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising, thank you very much.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much then.  That

          21       concludes your evidence.  Please don't speak to anyone

          22       about the evidence that you have given, but you may now

          23       go.  Thank you very much indeed.

          24                      (The witness withdrew)

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  The next witness is B22.


                                           124
 

 

 


           1                          B22 (affirmed)

           2                   (The witness was anonymised)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you have

           4       a seat, please.

           5   A.  Thank you, sir.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           7           Once you are comfortable I will ask Mr Underwood to

           8       ask the usual questions to start with.

           9                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Officer.

          11   A.  Good afternoon.

          12   Q.  I'm counsel to the Inquest, I have a few questions for

          13       you.

          14           If you could start please by looking at that piece

          15       of paper and against the letters and numbers B22 is that

          16       your name?

          17   A.  That is correct, yes.

          18   Q.  Thank you.  I think you're a surveillance officer who --

          19       or at least were a surveillance officer in August 2011?

          20   A.  I am a surveillance officer, yes.

          21   Q.  Attached to SCD11?

          22   A.  Yes, correct.

          23   Q.  You were intended to attend a briefing at about

          24       6 o'clock at Quicksilver to do with Dibri; is that

          25       right?


                                           125
 

 

 


           1   A.  That is correct.

           2   Q.  What time did you actually attend?

           3   A.  I was there probably a little bit earlier, probably

           4       about 5.50, I think, in the end.  We had the briefing

           5       given to us.

           6   Q.  Did you realise then that things were happening and that

           7       some officers had gone ahead?

           8   A.  We were aware that the firearms team had been deployed

           9       because the intelligence had suddenly changed and they

          10       were actually en route to assist Trident officers.

          11   Q.  Did you have a very quick briefing or a normal briefing?

          12   A.  We had a normal briefing because we were also waiting

          13       for our firearms to arrive at the Quicksilver base.

          14   Q.  As that briefing developed, did the intelligence keep

          15       coming in?

          16   A.  Yes, it did.

          17   Q.  So by the time you finished the briefing, did you know

          18       what minicab you were after?

          19   A.  We knew what vehicle, with the registration we were

          20       given as well.

          21   Q.  Did you know this involved Mark Duggan and the pick up

          22       of a gun?

          23   A.  Yes, we were made aware that the subject -- I think he

          24       was -- I cannot remember his subject number, but that

          25       was the number that was given to him, and obviously he


                                           126
 

 

 


           1       was in the vehicle.

           2   Q.  By the time that intelligence had developed and your

           3       briefing had finished did you know whereabouts this

           4       pickup was supposed to be happening?

           5   A.  I didn't know where he was initially placed but

           6       obviously we were informed by the radio conversation

           7       where the Trident team and obviously the SFO team were

           8       making their way to.

           9   Q.  Is that by the time you were on the road or was that

          10       still at Quicksilver?

          11   A.  That was by the time we were on the road.

          12   Q.  Those are the SCD11 officers who had attended the

          13       briefing and become armed, did you all go off together?

          14   A.  Some of us went off together in a convoy to try and

          15       intercept and join up with the SFO team.

          16   Q.  The aim there was to do your job of surveillance, was

          17       it?

          18   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          19   Q.  What actually happened, as far as you were concerned,

          20       then?

          21   A.  In what way, sorry?

          22   Q.  Did you join up with --

          23   A.  Yes, we did.

          24   Q.  Did you end up behind the minicab or in front of it or

          25       what?


                                           127
 

 

 


           1   A.  I was -- as I arrived, I was aware they were coming from

           2       my offside, the actual surveillance or the firearms unit

           3       and the surveillance Trident officers, and as they

           4       passed me, I then pulled in behind that part of the

           5       convoy.

           6   Q.  So this is some time before Ferry Lane, I take it?

           7   A.  It's just -- at the actual start of Ferry Lane.

           8   Q.  Right.  Can you recall what you were driving?

           9   A.  A white VW van.

          10   Q.  Can I show you a clip that we've got from a CCTV camera

          11       from a bus that was facing the other way on Ferry Lane.

          12             (Video footage was played to the court)

          13           Is that you?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15                    (The video footage ended)

          16   Q.  As far as we can tell, you appear to drive by the

          17       minicab pretty much at the time the hard stop was going

          18       in?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Was that your appreciation of what was going on?

          21   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          22   Q.  As you were approaching the area where we know the stop

          23       took place, did you hear the state red being called?

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  Did you hear the strike being called?


                                           128
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  What did you see?

           3   A.  As I was -- moved to the offside lane, obviously as the

           4       stop was taking place, saw the firearms team exit from

           5       their respective vehicles and as I was going past

           6       I thought I heard one or possibly two gunshots and

           7       I continued past to put in a cordon the other side of

           8       Ferry Lane and obviously heard them shouting "Armed

           9       police".

          10   Q.  Did you see Mr Duggan?

          11   A.  No.  Not until later on, obviously.

          12   Q.  Sure.  So if I may say so, this seems to be a piece of

          13       very quick thinking for you to decide, as this was

          14       happening, to get ahead of it to do the cordons work?

          15   A.  That's part of the procedure.  Obviously, the first --

          16       the lead surveillance car when a strike takes place,

          17       that's their job, to then push ahead the other side of

          18       the stop, to obviously allow them a sterile area ahead

          19       of them and obviously a rear surveillance vehicle will

          20       then do the same to provide a sterile area to the back

          21       of the stop.

          22   Q.  Did you then carry on doing cordon duties?

          23   A.  That's correct, yes.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's all I want to ask you.  Thank you very

          25       much.  You may be asked more questions by others.


                                           129
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, thank you very much.

           2       Mr Mansfield?

           3                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           4   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon, I'm Michael Mansfield

           5       I represent the Duggan family.

           6           Just one thing: I wonder if the clip that's been

           7       shown could just be shown again and let it run a bit, if

           8       we could go back a bit.  Sorry.

           9           Could it just run, please?

          10        (Video footage was played to the court and ended)

          11   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.  Have you seen that clip before?

          12   A.  Yes, I have, twice on the news, I'm sorry to say, yes.

          13       Because my wife called me in and said, "Is that your

          14       van?"  I said, "Yes, that will be my van", yes.

          15   Q.  Because she thought you were somewhere else, you mean!

          16       The question I had really, and I don't know whether you

          17       noticed it, but we obviously have a film but it was

          18       a pretty busy time of day on that road, wasn't it?

          19   A.  Yes, it was.

          20   Q.  I don't know whether you noticed -- I'm only asking

          21       whether you noticed -- did you notice there were

          22       pedestrians on the pavement?

          23   A.  I didn't see any pedestrians on the pavement.  I was

          24       aware obviously that there were at least, I think, two

          25       or three buses as I came past on this side of the road.


                                           130
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You are pointing to?

           2   A.  Sorry, obviously the oncoming traffic, I think there's

           3       at least two or three buses --

           4   Q.  In front of the one we've got?

           5   A.  -- in front of the one we've got, I think, as I come

           6       past.

           7   Q.  And the cyclist?

           8   A.  I cannot remember if I saw the cyclists.

           9   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you very much.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas?  No.

          11           Mr Stern?

          12                      Questions by MR STERN

          13   MR STERN:  Yes, please.  First of all, I thought that clip

          14       was still there.  Could we have the clip?  If you could

          15       stop it at the same place as it was before, that would

          16       be very helpful, thank you.

          17           First of all, we can see, can we not, that this is

          18       literally moments after the shots have been fired?

          19   A.  I believe so, yes, sir.

          20   Q.  Well, your van --

          21   A.  Yes, yes.

          22   Q.  -- has gone past.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  There don't seem to be a lot of pedestrians there but

          25       there may be one on the right that we can see.


                                           131
 

 

 


           1   A.  Unless that's one there as well, sir, there's possibly

           2       two on that pavement on that side I can see possibly

           3       (indicates).

           4   Q.  Your eyesight is better than mine you have a nearer

           5       picture.  Is that all we can see in that picture?

           6   A.  Unless that's a person on the nearside, on the other

           7       side of the buses, sir, there's a pedestrian, I don't

           8       know.

           9   Q.  On the other side, yes.  The other thing I want to ask

          10       if we could put on the screen, please, is this: CS0054.

          11       Again, perhaps you can -- your eyesight is probably

          12       better than mine.  This is a statement you made on

          13       4 August 2011, yes --

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  -- on the day of the incident?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  If we look at the bottom of the page, we can see that

          18       you were aware of state red being called.  We haven't

          19       gone into that in any detail with the jury but they'll

          20       hear about that in due course.  Then you heard the words

          21       "Strike, strike".

          22           You have to answer, sorry, rather just than nod.

          23   A.  Sorry, yes, I do, sorry, yes.

          24   Q.  Then you saw:

          25           "... police officers in plain clothes with firearms


                                           132
 

 

 


           1       wearing high visible caps ..."

           2           I think you mean high visibility.

           3   A.  Basically, it's the chequered bandana with blue baseball

           4       caps, and "Metropolitan Police" on the front.  There are

           5       what we call high visibility caps, ie the fluorescent

           6       green colour, but they are for non-firearms officers.

           7   Q.  So the word is correct: "high visible caps"?

           8   A.  Yes, they are visible caps.  We call them "high

           9       visibility caps" but they are referred to -- when you

          10       attend a firearms incident, you will either be wearing,

          11       if you're an armed officer the blue baseball cap with

          12       the chequered bandana round or like the fluorescent

          13       yellow/green colour if you're a non-firearms officer.

          14       That's what you should wear.

          15   Q.  Right.  These officers, as far as you could see, were

          16       wearing those caps?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  You say they approached the vehicle from various points.

          19       You would expect that, would you not?

          20   A.  They have exited from their three vehicles during the

          21       stop.

          22   Q.  Which was a standard stop you were presumably very

          23       familiar with?

          24   A.  That's correct, yes.

          25   Q.  You say:


                                           133
 

 

 


           1           "I drove to the offside lane to get to the other

           2       side of Ferry Lane.  I heard a lot of shouting."

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  "The most discernible words used was ..."

           5           Then over the page we can see:

           6           "... 'Armed police, armed police'."

           7           So there was quite a lot of noise as the officers

           8       got out of the vehicles at that point?

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  You are used to that, that is the way things ordinarily

          11       operate?

          12   A.  That is correct, sir.

          13   Q.  Then you say:

          14           "I then heard at least one shot fired, possibly two

          15       as I drove past ..."

          16   A.  That's correct, sir.

          17   Q.  Yes.  Then we've seen you've driven off.  I think you

          18       actually assisted with the photography later on.

          19   A.  I was asked to attend the scene because I'm the team

          20       photographer on my team.  But as I got back onto the top

          21       of the hill, there was already at least, I think, two

          22       cameras or somebody taking photographs and imagery.

          23   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where exactly were you at the first

          25       shot in relation to the stop?


                                           134
 

 

 


           1   A.  I was probably alongside, sir.  Alongside, obviously, as

           2       the stop was going in and as I've then continued on

           3       through to the other side to commit my duties for the

           4       (inaudible).

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You've got the windows of the van up

           6       or down?

           7   A.  The windows were up, yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.  Thank you.  Mr Butt?  No.

           9       Mr Glasson?  Ms Leek?  Mr Keith?

          10   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood?

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you.  Nothing arising.  Thank you

          13       very much, officer.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas?

          15                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          16   MR THOMAS:  One question.  Can we just clarify this with

          17       you: do you recall what you were wearing on the day?

          18   A.  No, I don't sir.  It would probably have been a dark

          19       t-shirt and dark trousers.  Generally non-descript

          20       clothes, I tend to wear.

          21   MR THOMAS:  Thank you very much.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, that completes

          23       your evidence.  Thank you for assisting us.  Cameras

          24       off, please.

          25                      (The witness withdrew)


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           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  That was the last witness for today, save

           2       that I'm asked to read a witness statement of ZZ75.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps I can do that now.  I think

           5       technically we do not need to be in closed for this --

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I don't think so.

           7              ZZ75 (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  -- nonetheless we are.  It's a statement made

           9       by ZZ75 on 7 August 2011 and he says.

          10           "I am a Detective Constable in the Metropolitan

          11       Police Service, currently employed on Operation Trident,

          12       Specialist Crime Directorate.  I've been employed in the

          13       role since 2003 and have been surveillance trained since

          14       2008.

          15           "Since its inception in late 2008 I have been

          16       engaged on Operation Dibri, a pro-active investigation

          17       into the criminal activities of an organised criminal

          18       network known as the Tottenham Man Dem or TMD.  The TMD

          19       are concerned with the supply of class A drugs, robbery

          20       kidnap and the possession, supply and use of firearms

          21       within the Metropolitan Police District and home

          22       counties.  In order to maintain their control and status

          23       they have a propensity to use firearms and extreme

          24       violence, and TMD members have been involved and

          25       instrumental in numerous fatal and non-fatal shootings


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           1       over the past few years.

           2           "Since being posted to Trident I have been engaged

           3       in numerous operations the majority of which have

           4       required armed support.

           5           "In relation to Op Dibri, on 3 August at

           6       approximately 6.00 pm I attended a north London police

           7       premises for the first of a series of planned operations

           8       intending to run until the weekend.  A briefing was

           9       given, detailing the operation and a number of subjects

          10       including Mark Duggan were named.  The operation was

          11       specifically aimed at the TMD and their criminal

          12       associates.  Present at the briefing were officers from

          13       Operation Trident, CO19 armed support and surveillance

          14       officers.  During the course of the evening I was not

          15       deployed and the operation was later stood down.

          16           "On Thursday 4 August 2011 I was present at the same

          17       north London police premises in company with ZZ17, ZZ46

          18       and ZZ37 preparing and researching for the forthcoming

          19       6.00 pm briefing re Op Dibri.  As a result of

          20       information from ZZ17, that Mark Duggan was going to

          21       pick up a firearm, I went to the Leyton area of east

          22       London in company with ZZ46.  I was aware that ZZ37 was

          23       also going to that location.  Upon arrival in the Leyton

          24       area and from information supplied by ZZ37 we began to

          25       follow a bronze coloured Toyota Lucida in Park Road E10.


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           1       This vehicle was a minicab with two occupants, the

           2       driver and a rear seat passenger.  The registration

           3       number was R343 KPE.  We followed the vehicle in slow

           4       moving traffic with ZZ46 giving a commentary to other

           5       officers.  I was made aware by ZZ17 that Mark Duggan was

           6       in this vehicle and was in possession of a firearm.

           7       State 'Amber' was called and I was aware that armed

           8       officers were making their way to our location.  I do

           9       not know the exact route taken but can recall passing

          10       St James Street Station and later turning left at

          11       Blackhorse Road Station, onto Forest Road, and then onto

          12       Ferry Lane.  State 'Red' was called at the vehicle

          13       stopped by armed officers.  Four unmarked police

          14       vehicles came past us, the 1st a silver vehicle pulled

          15       in front of the minicab which stopped.  The other

          16       vehicles pulled up next to it and behind it and armed

          17       officers got out of the vehicles and ran towards the

          18       pavement on the nearside of the minicab.  My view was

          19       obstructed by the police vehicles and I could not see

          20       the pavement area.  As per standard operating procedures

          21       I remained with my vehicle awaiting a handover by armed

          22       officers and heard a number of what I believed to be

          23       gunshots.  One of the firearms officers came running

          24       towards us and was shouting to call a ambulance and that

          25       an officer had been shot(s).  I immediately dialled 999


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           1       on my mobile phone and spoke with the operator, I passed

           2       details of the incident and spent some time pinpointing

           3       the exact location.  I also requested the emergency

           4       helicopter (HEMS).  I then moved my vehicle away from

           5       the immediate vicinity of the incident and called up for

           6       a crime scene manager and photographer.  Other uniform

           7       officers began arriving and I was aware of cordons being

           8       put in place.  I was approached by an armed officer

           9       requesting items that could be used to protect a firearm

          10       exhibit from my vehicle.  I retrieved a flat packed

          11       cardboard evidence box and a large plastic bag and made

          12       my way towards the scene.  I was directed to a grass

          13       area on the nearside of the pavement where I saw what

          14       I believed to be a pistol wrapped in dark cloth possibly

          15       a sock.  I folded up the cardboard box and placed it

          16       over the pistol to protect it from the elements.  I then

          17       placed the large plastic bag over that and a firearms

          18       officer placed a plant pot onto the corner of the

          19       plastic bag to secure it.  I then left that officer and

          20       others with the pistol and made my way back to my

          21       vehicle.  On the way back ZZ17 approached me and asked

          22       if I could place the minicab driver in the back of my

          23       vehicle.  The driver was handcuffed and placed in the

          24       rear of my vehicle.  I sat in the front and made and

          25       received several calls on my mobile phone.  After making


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           1       enquiries as to the status of the minicab driver I was

           2       informed that he was not a suspect and I released him

           3       from the handcuffs.  I explained that I could not

           4       discuss the incident with him and enquired as to his

           5       welfare.  He declined medical aid or refreshment and was

           6       later handed into the safekeeping of officers from the

           7       Territorial Support Group.  I then made my way to police

           8       premises for the Post Incident Procedures, and made

           9       an initial account.

          10           "I have written this statement in company with Z51,

          11       ZZ17, ZZ46, ZZ37 and have conferred with them regarding

          12       the generic introduction of Op Dibri and general

          13       structure of the statement.

          14           "I have conferred with ZZ37 re the route taken with

          15       the minicab and the subsequent stop of it.

          16           "I have conferred with ZZ46 re our surveillance of

          17       the minicab.

          18           "This statement is my recollection of events and was

          19       written between 11.35 am and 19.05 pm on 7 August 2011."

          20           I should just make it clear, sir, that when I opened

          21       I gave a distance of somewhere between 10 and 20 feet

          22       between where the gun was found and where Mr Duggan

          23       might have been.

          24           I perhaps should make it clearer that where we have

          25       on the map a plant pot marked, that apparently is


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           1       accurate to where the gun was found.  Because the scan,

           2       later scan that was done of the scene captured that

           3       plant pot there.  The reason I cannot at least be clear

           4       how far away that was from Mr Duggan is that we cannot

           5       be certain where Mr Duggan was when he was shot and, of

           6       course, that's going to be the subject of evidence which

           7       we shall hear, I hope, next week.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, but where we've got it on our

           9       plan, and I think the members of the jury may have been

          10       provided with a larger plan --

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes, indeed they have now.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- as well as the smaller one that

          13       we had originally, but a larger version with some colour

          14       in it, the actual plant pot is accurately put on that

          15       plan.

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  As far as we understand it, that's right.

          17       So, sir, that is the evidence for, in fact, this week.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Thank you very much.

          19           Members of the jury, clearly we've worked harder

          20       than we thought because we've been able to finish

          21       a little earlier this afternoon.  Can I thank you for

          22       your attention.  It is very difficult to work out the

          23       timetabling of the witnesses, some take longer than

          24       others, as you've seen, and it's not always easy to

          25       anticipate but we do the best we can.


                                           141
 

 

 


           1           The next witnesses, therefore, are due for next week

           2       but there's some news that I must give you.  We will not

           3       be sitting on Monday afternoon as we would normally

           4       plan.  That's due to very good reasons.  But it means

           5       therefore that you are not required on Monday at all so

           6       next week we'll be sitting for Tuesday, Wednesday,

           7       Thursday.

           8           I think everybody knows that tomorrow this court

           9       room is required for another case so whilst you will be

          10       all right because you will be taking your papers away,

          11       everyone obviously please keep your papers tidy so other

          12       judge and counsel can occupy this court room.

          13           But therefore a very long weekend for you.  I do

          14       want you to understand that we are actually working

          15       quite hard.  There's a lot of other work that everyone

          16       has to do.  I'm looking over there, I must rather

          17       modestly include myself, but we are all having to do

          18       work around it.  There may come a time, as we go on,

          19       that it may be that we'll see if we can sit a little bit

          20       longer but I don't want to ruin any plans that you may

          21       have.  We'll see how it goes and there may be other days

          22       when we will not be sitting as well, for other reasons.

          23           So we'll have to see how it goes and that's why I am

          24       just going to give you the plans a week at that time.

          25       So for next week it's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, for


                                           142
 

 

 


           1       a full day on each of those three days.

           2           So thank you very much indeed if you would like to

           3       leave us then remembering those warnings I gave you

           4       right at the very beginning.


          11   (3.06 pm)

          12        (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Tuesday,

          13                         8 October 2013)

          14

          15
               ZZ37 (affirmed) ......................................1
          16
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................1
          17
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD .......................11
          18
                   Questions by Mr Thomas ..........................33
          19
                   Questions by MR KEITH ...........................50
          20
                   Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ...............58
          21
                   Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ............61
          22
               Submissions by MR MANSFIELD .........................64
          23
               Submissions by MR THOMAS ............................69
          24
               MR MARLON DUGGAN (affirmed) .........................71
          25
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................72

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                           143
 

 

 


           1
               B17 (affirmed) ......................................75
           2
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................75
           3
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD .......................80
           4
               ZZ50 (affirmed) .....................................85
           5
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................85
           6
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD .......................92
           7
                   Questions by MR THOMAS .........................105
           8
                   Questions by MR BUTT ...........................108
           9
               ZZ63 (affirmed) ....................................111
          10
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................111
          11
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD ......................115
          12
                   Questions by MR THOMAS .........................117
          13
                   Questions by MR STERN ..........................120
          14
                   Questions by MR BUTT ...........................123
          15
               B22 (affirmed) .....................................125
          16
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................125
          17
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD ......................130
          18
                   Questions by MR STERN ..........................131
          19
                   Questions by MR THOMAS .........................135
          20
               ZZ75 (statement read by MR .........................136
          21             UNDERWOOD)

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                           144