Transcript of the Hearing 18 November 2013

 

           1                                       Monday, 18 November 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (11.03 am)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We'll have the

           6       jury in then, please.

           7                  (In the presence of the jury)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Very good to see you all, members of

           9       the jury, we'll ask firstly for Professor Colonel

          10       Clasper to come back.

          11          PROFESSOR JONATHAN CHARLES CLASPER (continued)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Once you are comfortable, you are

          13       still under the affirmation that you took and Mr Thomas

          14       has sprung to his feet and is ready to ask you some

          15       questions.

          16                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          17   MR THOMAS:  Good morning, Professor.

          18   A.  Good morning.

          19   Q.  I represent the loved ones of Mark Duggan.  I only have

          20       a few questions for you.  Can I just touch upon a little

          21       bit of your evidence that you gave last week.  We were

          22       talking about at the design of the ammunition that was

          23       used on Mark Duggan; this is the ammunition that

          24       mushrooms.

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  It's right, isn't it, that in the military that's not

           2       the ammunition that you're used to dealing with?

           3   A.  No, we deal with different ammunition.

           4   Q.  Okay.  So in terms of this particular bullet, would I be

           5       best leaving my questions for the next expert, who has

           6       a lot more dealings with the mushroom type bullet; would

           7       that be fair?

           8   A.  It would depend on what you're interested in.  If you're

           9       interested in the wounding effects and the wound tract,

          10       then I would have an equally valid opinion.  If you're

          11       talking about the actual specific designs of the bullet

          12       and how it functions in theoretical tissue, so things

          13       like gelatin blocks and stuff, yes, you should ask the

          14       ballistics expert.

          15   Q.  I'll do that then.  Let me move on to another part of

          16       your evidence that you touched upon.  That relates to --

          17       we know that the gun was said to have been found some

          18       20 feet away --

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  -- from where Mark Duggan was said to have been

          21       standing.  I wonder if Mr Underwood could just produce

          22       the replica for us, please.  (Handed)

          23           Now, the jury have already felt the weight of this

          24       replica of the Bruni.  You have a lot of experience with

          25       firearms --


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           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- working in the military.  I just want to come to --

           3       I'm talking in terms of likelihood -- to explore the

           4       possibilities as to how this gun, if -- and I'm working

           5       on the assumption -- and we don't necessarily accept

           6       this assumption but let's just work on it for the

           7       moment -- if Mark Duggan had the gun on him; do you

           8       follow?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Right.  Proposition number 1: to get from where Mark

          11       Duggan was standing to where it is alleged this weapon

          12       ended up -- to where the Bruni ended up, you would agree

          13       that a considerable degree of force would be needed to

          14       get this weapon over the fence into the grass area?

          15   A.  A reasonable degree, I would not say considerable.

          16   Q.  Yes, a reasonable degree of force.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Okay, fine.  One possibility, can I just explore with

          19       you, could be that, as Mark Duggan exited the -- if Mark

          20       Duggan had the gun on his person --

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  -- when Mark Duggan opened the minicab doors, him

          23       throwing it from the minicab doors; that's one

          24       possibility, isn't it?

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  Now, let's just look at when he's actually out of the

           2       minicab and he's standing in whatever position, that's

           3       for the jury to determine, to see how this weapon could

           4       have got over that fence.

           5           Now, you have said that it is unlikely that, having

           6       been shot, this weapon could have ended up there from

           7       some sort of involuntary movement; have I understood

           8       your evidence correctly?

           9   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          10   Q.  When the jury are considering the options, based on your

          11       expert opinion, that's one thing they don't need to

          12       trouble themselves with?

          13   A.  Yes, I would agree with that.

          14   Q.  Okay.  That relates to involuntary movements.  Let's

          15       look at voluntary movements.  Now, when you initially

          16       gave your opinion, I think you said that you had some

          17       views as to how the gun might have ended up there if,

          18       for instance, Mark Duggan was in the process of throwing

          19       it at the time he got shot.  I think that's what you

          20       were trying to indicate; is that fair?

          21   A.  That's correct, yes.

          22   Q.  But you haven't had the benefit of the witness evidence.

          23   A.  Not the witness at the Inquest, correct.

          24   Q.  I think you were looking at the witness statements, not

          25       what the witnesses have said on oath during the Inquest;


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           1       is that right, have I understood you correctly?

           2   A.  Yes, and also witness statements under oath at the trial

           3       of Kevin Hutchinson-Foster.

           4   Q.  Yes, okay.  Well, can I deal with who I'm going to

           5       describe as the key witness in this case, because that's

           6       the shooter, V53.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  At this Inquest, he has said, and I am just quoting,

           9       taking some quotes from his evidence, that his eyes were

          10       glued to the gun: those are his words.  Secondly, he has

          11       said that he had a lovely view of Mark Duggan, what Mark

          12       Duggan was doing.

          13           Then he said this, and if anybody wants the

          14       reference, it's page 55, lines 1 to 4 on 15 October.

          15       Essentially he said that he was absolutely clear that

          16       Mark Duggan had the gun in his hand while he, that's

          17       V53, fired both shots, and the gun was still in Mark

          18       Duggan's hand after he fired the first shot, because --

          19       can I just demonstrate what he says Mark was doing?  You

          20       won't be able to glean this from the transcript, do you

          21       see?

          22           So Mark Duggan has got out of the minicab and

          23       he's -- if you're V53 -- Mark gets out facing in the

          24       other direction (indicates) where the other officer who

          25       was shot in the radio was approaching from; do you


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           1       follow?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Right.  He says that Mark Duggan pivots round

           4       180 degrees -- okay -- to face him, okay?  As he's

           5       pivoting round, he sees -- for the first time he sees

           6       the gun, and the gun is in this sort of position

           7       (indicates); do you follow?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Right.  What I am describing is -- it's the gun near the

          10       waistband and, as Mark is coming round, he sees the gun

          11       and he perceives a threat to himself and he fires the

          12       first shot.  Okay?

          13   A.  Okay.

          14   Q.  The gun is there (indicates).  Having fired the first

          15       shot, his eyes still 100 per cent focused on the gun,

          16       the first shot, which he says is in the chest, he says

          17       causes Mark Duggan to do this sort of action

          18       (indicates), so if I'm facing you (indicates).

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Right.  So from there to there.  He says that now the

          21       gun is pointing at him, which causes him to fire the

          22       second shot, which he says hits the arm.

          23           So that's the evidence that you wouldn't have

          24       gleaned from the transcript; okay?

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  I want to ask you about that.

           2   A.  Can I just quickly --

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.

           4   A.  When he allegedly pivots, does he pivot to face the

           5       minicab or does he pivot to face the other direction?

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Coming round to face V53 but --

           7   A.  It's just -- it is related to -- does he turn facing the

           8       minicab --

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Facing the minicab, yes.

          10   A.  So he's facing the minicab, okay.

          11   MR THOMAS:  Got it?

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  He pivots so that his back is to the minicab.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry.

          14   MR STERN:  I think V53 said he could not remember.  On the

          15       other evidence, without wishing to comment on it, we may

          16       be able to determine which way it was.

          17   MR THOMAS:  All right.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Forgive me, I think there may be a cross

          19       purpose here.  I think what the Professor was asking was

          20       whether, during the pivot, V53 was facing the minicab.

          21   A.  Was he facing the minicab or was he facing the railings

          22       because that's important to the wound tract.

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  I think the answer is that he was facing

          24       outwards from the minicab throughout.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Having got out he came round with


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           1       his back to the minicab on that turn.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Precisely so he was facing away from the

           3       minicab whilst he was pivoting, I think that was the

           4       evidence.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

           6           Sorry, Professor Clasper, did you want to make any

           7       comment about this so far?

           8   A.  No, I'm happy, that's all I needed.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The question?

          10   MR THOMAS:  Yes.  Mr Straw corrects me on one thing which

          11       I think I should illustrate to you.  Just after the

          12       first shot and before the second shot, the arm is out

          13       there (indicates), in that position; do you follow?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  That is when he fires the second shot, which he says is

          16       the arm shot.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  I don't want to look at whether or not he's right in

          19       relation to the chest shot or the arm shot, and I think

          20       you say you cannot help us on that in any event?

          21   A.  The order of the shots?  No, I can't.

          22   Q.  The order of the shots, no, all right.

          23           The other piece of information I'm going to give to

          24       you, that V53 says, then I'm going to ask you to

          25       comment, is this, I specifically asked him:


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           1           "Did you see Mark Duggan throw the gun or make any

           2       sudden or jerky movements?"

           3           The answer was no; do you follow?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Added to that, every single firearms officer who was in

           6       a position to see, so all the firearms officers who were

           7       around Mark Duggan and in a position to see his body,

           8       none of them, not one, say that they see Mark Duggan

           9       making a jerky movement or throwing movement or throw

          10       anything; do you follow?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  It's a question: would you agree that, in the position

          13       that I have just demonstrated to you, where the arm is

          14       low, it's near the waist but out, it would be very

          15       difficult to explain how the gun ended up where it ended

          16       up?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   MR THOMAS:  Thank you.  That's all I ask you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern?

          20                      Questions by MR STERN

          21   MR STERN:  Professor Clasper, can we deal with it in

          22       separate sections.

          23           First of all I want to deal with the arm injury, if

          24       we can.

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  First of all, as I understand it, according to your

           2       statement, there was no injury to the brain or spinal

           3       cord or to the shoulder muscles?

           4   A.  To the shoulder itself, biceps is actually shoulder

           5       muscle as well.

           6   Q.  All right.  Thank you for the correction.  The injury to

           7       the arm, you considered as superficial?

           8   A.  I didn't say superficial.  I didn't think it was

           9       particularly serious.  It wasn't superficial because --

          10       it damaged the superficial aspect of the biceps.

          11   Q.  I don't want to argue with you but, I mean, you said

          12       "which is reported to have been superficial".

          13   A.  Superficial to biceps; it still penetrated the skin and

          14       caused a wound tract.

          15   Q.  In your evidence last week you said that it was

          16       a relatively low energy transfer injury?

          17   A.  That's what it appears to me, looking at the wound tract

          18       and reading both pathologist descriptions of it.

          19   Q.  Could you just explain it so we can understand what that

          20       means?

          21   A.  Bullets damage tissue by the transfer -- either by

          22       directly impacting on it so cutting or crushing or by

          23       the transfer of energy, and the cavitation that

          24       Professor Pounder was talking about is caused by this

          25       transfer of energy.


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           1   Q.  Again, I don't think we had it explained or if we did

           2       I missed it, what is the cavitation effect?

           3   A.  The cavitation effect is when energy is passed from the

           4       projectile to the tissue beside it and it causes the

           5       tissue to rapidly accelerate out of the way so instead

           6       of having a tract, as you would if somebody was stabbed,

           7       you actually have a big swelling outwards and the tissue

           8       will accelerate away.  So you have a cavity, basically,

           9       and that cavity then collapses as the bullet passes

          10       through.

          11           To get a cavity you need to have a reasonable degree

          12       of energy transfer, so rather than describing wounds by

          13       weapons or ammunition and things like that, you should

          14       talk about the structure that was damaged and the amount

          15       of energy that was transferred.  This is not a high

          16       energy transfer wound, it's a relatively low energy

          17       transfer wound.  The chest wound is a much higher energy

          18       transfer wound.

          19   Q.  Yes, we'll come onto the chest.  Let's deal with them

          20       separately, if you don't mind.  I think you said that it

          21       was unlikely to have significant cavitation and I think

          22       you repeated that today.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  You said the muscle could still work afterwards, after

          25       that shot?


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           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  You said it was not as painful as had been suggested:

           3       you mean suggested by Professor Pounder?  This is what

           4       you said and I want to understand.

           5   A.  Yes, and I think Dr Poole suggested it as well.

           6       Immediately after you're wounded, because the adrenaline

           7       and everything else, you often don't feel wounds.  So

           8       for several seconds you may not be aware you've been

           9       shot and I frequently see that in soldiers, they are not

          10       aware that they've been shot or have penetrating

          11       injuries so they continue to function.  How long that is

          12       depends on the amount of damage that's been done by the

          13       bullet.

          14   Q.  You said that you did not accept that the arm injury

          15       would most likely effect a dropping of the arm?  That

          16       was put to you.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Again, is that for the same reason?

          19   A.  Yes.  I think it's a relatively low energy transfer

          20       wound.  There wouldn't be immediate severe pain so

          21       someone wouldn't automatically drop anything they were

          22       holding; they could continue whatever movement they were

          23       doing.

          24   Q.  Are there other areas that you disagree with Professor

          25       Pounder about?


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           1   A.  He mentions cavitation, I think the cavitation effect is

           2       the main one.  The other thing is I don't believe

           3       there's suggest evidence to say which bullet was fired

           4       first.

           5   Q.  Yes.  I think he was doing it ultimately on

           6       an interpretation of the evidence.

           7   A.  Witness statements, yes.  That was outside of my area of

           8       expertise.

           9   Q.  It's a matter for the jury whether it's within your

          10       expertise or not.  Thank you.

          11           Can we look at the chest injury now then?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  When I say the chest injury, I don't mean -- I do not

          14       mean to diminish, not the graze on the outside?

          15   A.  You're talking about the penetrating?

          16   Q.  Yes, talking about the penetrative chest injury, yes.

          17           You agree that Mark Duggan was not standing straight

          18       upright when that shot hit him?

          19   A.  I think it's most likely he wasn't.  As I said last

          20       week, when a bullet or any projectile hits bone it can

          21       be deviated, that's one area I disagree with Professor

          22       Pounder on.  I do not think it was deviated a great

          23       deal, just looking at the wound tract, so I suspect he

          24       was stooped slightly forward.  How much that is, I do

          25       not think anyone can say.


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           1   Q.  I think that's where the major difference is between you

           2       and Professor Pounder.  As I have understood your

           3       criticism of him, it's that you do not accept that one

           4       can be as specific as he was about the degree of bending

           5       over.

           6   A.  I would say it's a difference of opinion rather than

           7       a criticism.

           8   Q.  Yes, I'm sorry, I meant a difference of opinion then --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- and that essentially what it comes to is that your

          11       assessment is that he could be anywhere between 30 and

          12       60 degrees?

          13   A.  Yes, I think that's a good estimate.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What do you say about the twist

          15       because he talked about the bend but also the twist to

          16       the body?

          17   A.  He was -- again, he was probably slightly twisted, so

          18       that his left side was facing the minicab.  But I don't

          19       believe that you can look at the wound tract angles and

          20       then line them up with the shooter because, again, the

          21       bullet going through there could be deviated by the

          22       bone.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

          24   MR STERN:  There is a danger, isn't there, in looking at

          25       sort of trajectory rods, that you may have seen in this


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           1       case --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- and trying to quantify exactly where the bullet may

           4       have come from by virtue of the point of entry and the

           5       point of exit?

           6   A.  Yes, I believe that's taken subjective evidence and

           7       making it objective.

           8   Q.  Just explain that if you will, so everyone can

           9       understand that.

          10   A.  Objective evidence is something that anyone can look at

          11       and it's the same no matter how you look at it: if a car

          12       is red, a car is red.  Subjective is your impression of

          13       it, so to take something that varies between a number of

          14       angles then put a single pointer through it and say that

          15       was it is effectively taking quite wide-ranging arcs in

          16       my screw and a large area where that bullet had come

          17       from and giving the impression is came down that tract.

          18   Q.  So do you warn us to exercise real care in relation to

          19       those trajectory diagrams?

          20   A.  I would warn people to exercise great care on looking at

          21       wounds and looking at tracts and stating where things

          22       came from, particularly when there's confounding factors

          23       like the bone being struck.  It's easier with the arm

          24       because the wounds are smaller, less things were hit.

          25       The chest, I think, it's potentially dangerous to make


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           1       too much into the tract.

           2   Q.  Now, I just want to ask you about something you said on

           3       Thursday.  You were dealing with the degrees -- 30 to

           4       60 degrees -- point and you said that you don't think

           5       that you could be that accurate and then you were asked

           6       this question:

           7           "You go on to say ..."

           8           And, again, [Question] this is a response to

           9       evidence you have given in one of the Hutchinson-Foster

          10       trials, is it?  [Answer] Yes.  [Question] You go on to

          11       say there are other possible scenarios, it's in your

          12       statement.

          13           What did you mean by that?

          14   A.  At the trial I was asked if the shooter was in front,

          15       pointing a weapon, what was Mr Duggan's potential body

          16       position.  Now, the other scenarios, which I was

          17       specifically asked at the time -- I don't know how it

          18       comes across there -- was what other scenarios are

          19       there?  Well, the fact the shooter was off to the right

          20       and higher than him.  So that effectively is the

          21       scenario, that's the two potential --

          22   Q.  When you say "off to the right", off to the right as

          23       Mr Duggan was looking at him?

          24   A.  Yes, yes.  If he is standing up facing forward then the

          25       shooter was not in front of him given those wounds.  If


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           1       he was allegedly standing up pointing a weapon, the

           2       shooter was not in front of him, it could have been --

           3       it was high to the right.  Alternatively, he was twisted

           4       and stooped slightly with his arm turned in when the

           5       shooter could be to the front.

           6   Q.  That's the second one I wanted to ask you about.  Just

           7       explain that if you will, if he was stooped?  You said

           8       that alternatively he could be stooped with the shooter

           9       in front of him.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Just explain that.  You appreciate we are obviously

          12       novices in this regard.

          13   A.  If you look at the penetrating chest wound the angle is

          14       probably somewhere around 20 to 60 degrees, 30, which

          15       means if the shooter was more or less the same height as

          16       his chest -- now, again I have no idea the position the

          17       shooter held his weapon in -- but effectively Mr Duggan

          18       would, I believe, have to be stooped down slightly, at

          19       least 20 degrees, so standing up, something like that

          20       (indicates) for the chest.  He wasn't down here but I do

          21       not believe he was upright so somewhere in there.  So

          22       that's the chest -- and probably slightly twisted.

          23           In terms of the arm, you cannot tell what position

          24       his body was in accurately from the gunshot wound to the

          25       arm and, sorry to bring it up now, but one of the things


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           1       that was said last week which I have different opinion

           2       on is a description of where the body was when the arm

           3       was hit.  Because the arm moves independent to the body

           4       you cannot say where the body was when the arm was hit

           5       that accurately.

           6           In terms of when the arm was hit, relative to his

           7       body it was across him, perhaps at 45 degrees, perhaps

           8       30 to 60 but certainly 45 degrees.  It was close to the

           9       chest, it was described as being in front last week, it

          10       was probably either.  If it was in front, it must have

          11       been slightly up to the side or if it was close to his

          12       chest it must be behind, and that's because the glancing

          13       blow to the chest is actually posterior, it's not

          14       anterior, according to the photographs.

          15   Q.  That's very helpful.  So the arm, in fact -- I think

          16       I may have been the introducer of the inaccurate -- the

          17       arm could have been backwards?

          18   A.  If it was close to the body it would need to be

          19       backwards to do that otherwise it would have gone

          20       through the chest, because it would have hit the front

          21       of the chest not the back of the chest but if you move

          22       the arm away from the side you can bring it forward, and

          23       that's the difficulty and, again, if you then move your

          24       shoulder up and down, there's a lot of positions you can

          25       put the arm in.


                                            18
 

 

 


           1           The rotation you cannot change a great deal but

           2       there's a lot of position you can put the arm in

           3       relative to the body, so all you can say is it was

           4       relatively close.

           5   Q.  So again, we should exercise real caution --

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  -- in relation to trying --

           8   A.  We don't know what position his shoulder was in in terms

           9       of how much elevation or how much depression it is and

          10       you cannot just line up the bullets and say it was there

          11       because as you move the arm away it changes.

          12   Q.  Now, I don't know if you remember, but the evidence, or

          13       part of the evidence, in relation to Mark Duggan,

          14       described by some, is that he was in a -- sort of

          15       pivoted out of the minicab and then in a sort of running

          16       stance going diagonally across, effectively --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  -- I think in the way Professor Pounder has put it in

          19       his report, or diagonal anyway.

          20           Is that consistent with the shot to the chest in

          21       that sort of stance?

          22   A.  It could be.  If the -- if the shooter was in front and

          23       he was running to the side there, then, yes, it

          24       conceivably could be.  But again it's difficult because

          25       of the potential deviation when it hit the bone.


                                            19
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I think the point really is this: we are all looking for

           2       some sort of certainty but, as I understand what you're

           3       saying, there isn't any?

           4   A.  That's my problem, there is not certainty on the chest

           5       wound.  There's a degree of error, which is quite

           6       considerable, for the penetrating chest wound.  As

           7       I say, I think the arm is different, I think there's

           8       less uncertainty about that.

           9   Q.  Yes.  But even that, as I understood what you have just

          10       said a few moments ago --

          11   A.  Again, the certainty about that is the angle it created

          12       relative to his body.  But in terminates of position

          13       relative to body, height of shoulder, again there's

          14       considerable uncertainty, and it depends on what he was

          15       physically doing at the time.

          16   Q.  What he was physically doing and the positioning that he

          17       was, whether he was bent down, bent up or whatever?

          18   A.  So if he was sprinting, if he was throwing, if he was

          19       just standing there, all of them can give similar wounds

          20       depending on the position of the arm, depending on which

          21       point it was.

          22   Q.  You described the loss of consciousness following the

          23       chest shot as about five to ten seconds, I appreciate

          24       that it's very much a sort of -- there's a broad margin,

          25       but about that sort of period; is that what you were


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       saying?

           2   A.  I would not say it was that broad, yes, but I believe he

           3       would lose consciousness after five to ten seconds after

           4       he was shot through in the chest.

           5   Q.  I don't know whether you're aware that the whole

           6       incident, on one view, from the stopping of the minicab,

           7       right the way through to the shots being fired, was

           8       about four seconds?

           9   A.  I'm not aware of that.

          10   Q.  No.  The reason that I mention that is this, that --

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's only on one view, there are

          12       other views.

          13   MR STERN:  I said on one view.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I know you said one view but I do

          15       not want you to think that there is anything

          16       particularly measured in the four seconds that Mr Stern

          17       has put.

          18           Sorry, please continue.

          19   MR STERN:  If that's right, it follows -- whether it's right

          20       or not -- from the chest shot there would be

          21       approximately five to ten seconds before a loss of

          22       consciousness?  That's as I've understood it.

          23   A.  He would start to lose consciousness at about five

          24       seconds.

          25   Q.  At about five seconds?


                                            21
 

 

 


           1   A.  Approximately.

           2   Q.  So if the shots were within two seconds, say, of --

           3       sorry.

           4           If the second shot was within two seconds, he would

           5       still be, obviously, conscious and able to carry on in

           6       the way that --

           7   A.  Two seconds of the first shot?

           8   Q.  Yes.  If the first shot was the chest shot?

           9   A.  Potentially he could have been, yes.

          10   Q.  Can I just look at what you said on Thursday about when

          11       you were asked about what you say happened.  It's

          12       page 149, for my learned friends.  You were asked about

          13       the arm injury and the most likely effect of dropping

          14       the arm and you said "I don't accept that".  You were

          15       then asked:

          16           "Question: What do you say happened after that then?

          17           Answer: I don't think anyone knows what happened

          18       after that.  I've seen lots of people who have been

          19       shot, I've treated lots of people who have been shot,

          20       they have often -- they have commonly continued what

          21       they were doing.  So if he was raising his arm when he

          22       was shot, he could continue to raise his arm.  If he was

          23       bending down when he was shot he could continue to bend

          24       down but if he was coming up when he was shot he could

          25       continue to come up ..."


                                            22
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  "... but the moment you're shot you don't tend to

           3       collapse, you tend to continue the movement."

           4   A.  Yes.  For a shot such as Mr Duggan's, yes.  It would be

           5       different if you were shot in the head.

           6   Q.  But the shots we are talking about in this case?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Indeed, I got a note from the jury

           9       this morning saying this:

          10           "He would not have been able to raise his hands

          11       straight in front of him after being shot but would

          12       Mr Duggan have been able to move his hand from the wrist

          13       and raise a gun a few inches, two or three inches from

          14       his body?"

          15           As indeed may have been mentioned in V53's evidence.

          16   A.  After he was shot?

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  After he was shot.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He would have been able to have done

          20       that movement that Mr Thomas was demonstrating after he

          21       was shot?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   MR STERN:  Thank you, sir, and he would, as I understand it,

          24       he would be able to move his arm, bearing in mind what

          25       you have said before, without any difficulty either?


                                            23
 

 

 


           1   A.  I wouldn't say without difficulty and, again, if he was

           2       moving his arm, he would be able to continue it and

           3       that's the point I would like to make.  I think it's

           4       unlikely someone who's shot with these wounds would

           5       change what they were doing.  You know, they will fall

           6       forward eventually, but they won't change what they were

           7       doing, but they could continue to do what they were

           8       doing for a few seconds.  So if they were running they

           9       could continue to run for a few seconds before they

          10       actually collapsed.  If they were throwing, standing --

          11   Q.  Likewise throwing, as I think you have described, he

          12       could carry on with that, if that's what he was doing?

          13   A.  If he was shot while he was throwing he could continue

          14       to throw, yes.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If he had wanted to shoot the police

          16       officer he could have carried on and shot him?

          17   A.  Yes.  There's statements and evidence on that from

          18       America, people who have had fatal gunshots who have

          19       subsequently managed to shoot afterwards before they

          20       died.

          21   MR STERN:  So, as I understand it, what you're saying is he

          22       could have thrown the gun after sustaining the two

          23       shots, bearing in mind time and also the fact that he

          24       was still -- would still be conscious -- or might still

          25       be conscious in that regard -- but he would, you think,


                                            24
 

 

 


           1       be unlikely to change from what he was doing; is that

           2       what I have understood?

           3   A.  Yes.  I think if he was throwing the gun he could

           4       continue to throw the gun.  If he wasn't throwing the

           5       gun could he then decide to throw the gun and throw the

           6       gun and end up with it 21 feet away after he was shot?

           7       I think that's unlikely.

           8   Q.  As I understand what you're saying about the gun being

           9       thrown, that would be a deliberate act not

          10       an involuntary act?

          11   A.  It would have to be a deliberate act, yes.

          12   Q.  There are three points of interest and I wonder if we

          13       could just -- I do not think we can manage all three on

          14       the screen at the same time, but we will -- Mr Scott is

          15       very good.  The first one is Mr Bell's blood spatter.

          16       Forgive me for the insensitive description but that's so

          17       I can explain to Mr Scott what it is that we're talking

          18       about.

          19           It was Mr Bell's measurement that is about 7 metres

          20       from there to the plant pot where the gun actually ended

          21       up, all right?  I think you've been asked questions

          22       about that: 20 feet, could he have thrown that?  You

          23       have given your answer about that: yes he could, if he

          24       was in the throws of throwing it, if you will pardon the

          25       double "throw".


                                            25
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  The most likely shot is that that was the chest shot,

           3       bearing in mind the blood spatter, that is what Mr Bell

           4       told us.  I don't know whether you agree disagree or

           5       can't say?

           6   A.  I'm unable to give an opinion on that.

           7   Q.  The second point of interest that we have is W42's

           8       marking on a picture, I think.  There we have it.  That

           9       is, obviously, nearer towards the railing and, if it's

          10       right that that is the shot that went through

          11       Mr Duggan's arm and then into the left side of W42, into

          12       his radio, it follows, does it, that Mark Duggan would

          13       be able to throw the gun, if he was in the middle of

          14       throwing the gun, from there, because that's obviously

          15       nearer than the 20 feet?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  The final point -- we don't need to change it actually,

          18       because you can see where the officers are giving first

          19       aid, CPR, to Mark Duggan, and that's the third point of

          20       interest, as it were -- that is about 4.3 metres from

          21       where the gun was, about 14 feet, something like that.

          22       Again, does it follow that, because that's nearer, he

          23       would be able to throw the gun from there if he were in

          24       the throws of throwing the gun?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            26
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I wonder if we could have a look at the photograph where

           2       the gun ended up.  There's an aerial photograph, I think

           3       it's 19-ish, but I cannot remember which -- "-ish" it

           4       is, it might be C or E, thank you.

           5           No, I wanted to see the one where -- if we can

           6       have -- where we can see them working on Mr Duggan --

           7       sorry, I should have had the number.

           8           Yes, I wonder if we can move in a little.  You will

           9       appreciate that some of the photographs are not as

          10       helpful as they might be, Professor Clasper, but you can

          11       see where Mark Duggan is and the minicab is and that

          12       line?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  That would be consist with the location, or could be

          15       consistent with the location, of throwing it from coming

          16       out of the minicab?

          17   A.  Could be, yes.

          18   Q.  You said -- yes, thank you.

          19           You said when you were giving evidence, on Thursday,

          20       just so that I have the passage to remind you --

          21       page 147 for my learned friends -- it was put to you

          22       about the -- still on the point of the throwing of the

          23       gun -- and you said that there was no witness that gave

          24       a statement that he was throwing a gun but you said

          25       there are statements that could be consistent with him


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       throwing a gun, including V53's evidence himself; what

           2       did you mean by that?

           3   A.  Initially I was given all the statements -- I've seen

           4       everything with the exception of the transcript of this

           5       Inquest and the transcript -- I believe I've seen

           6       everything -- the transcript of the second

           7       Hutchinson-Foster trial but I've seen several statements

           8       from V53 and in one of them, because I made a note of it

           9       at the time, he describes a flinching movement as the

          10       first bullet hit him.

          11           Now actually, it is -- people just don't tend to do

          12       that.  The bullet -- there's a perception that you get

          13       shot and you get sent six feet backwards.  Bullets tend

          14       to go straight through you.  So the most likely thing

          15       with that flinching movement is he was doing something,

          16       rather than the bullet caused the flinching movement, in

          17       my opinion.

          18   Q.  I see, yes.  You mean like the throwing?

          19   A.  Potentially like throwing.

          20   Q.  Now, we're all familiar, obviously, with every day

          21       instances where we don't see things, for example in

          22       motor cars and things like that, where we're looking for

          23       motorcycles or looking for cars turning right and there

          24       are hundreds of thousands of motorbike accidents and

          25       cyclists accidents every day, even when people are


                                            28
 

 

 


           1       concentrating.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Is that concept one that you are familiar with in the

           4       military?

           5   A.  I'm sorry, in terms of --

           6   Q.  In terms of looking but not seeing.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  To what extent are you aware of that?

           9   A.  Not so much from the military specifically, but I see it

          10       frequently.  I deal with a lot of people that have been

          11       injured, whether it's sports injuries, military trauma

          12       or road traffic accidents, and many of them are not

          13       aware of specifically what happened at the time of the

          14       accident or what they were doing.  Sometimes they may be

          15       confused, so often someone will say something and their

          16       partner who's with them will say "No, no, that's what

          17       happened".  Now, which one is right, I don't know.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that someone who's been

          19       involved -- is that traumatic amnesia or something of

          20       a different sort?

          21   A.  I do not think it's traumatic amnesia, I think it's --

          22       to a certain extent it's related to human nature.  You

          23       tend to process certain bits of information that you

          24       consider most important at the time and you may ignore

          25       other information like driving.  The most important


                                            29
 

 

 


           1       thing might be the traffic light ahead of you, in which

           2       case you're less responsive to a cyclists that's coming

           3       up on your side, for instance.  That happens in everyday

           4       life, in anything we do.

           5   MR STERN:  Do you find that with soldiers as well, so that

           6       if you're focused for example -- if you were focused on

           7       a waist level and a gun there, it may be that you would

           8       be focused in on that; is that what you found?

           9   A.  Yes, if you are focused in on something you will tend to

          10       ignore the periphery.  The more peripheral it is to you,

          11       the more likely you are to ignore it.  As I say, I think

          12       that's human nature and the way the brain functions

          13       rather than any specific military or shooting or

          14       anything like that.

          15   Q.  Is it easier to track something -- if this is outside

          16       your expertise or knowledge please say so -- is it

          17       easier to track something visually if it's further away

          18       than if it's nearer?

          19   A.  I think you're getting out of my area of expertise, I'm

          20       afraid.

          21   MR STERN:  Just give me a moment.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, of course.

          23   MR STERN:  (Pause)

          24           Again, you will tell me if this is outside your

          25       sphere of expertise, but are you aware of the perception


                                            30
 

 

 


           1       of people who fire shots?

           2   A.  You would have to expand on that, I'm afraid.

           3   Q.  Well, perceptual distortion is what I think it's been

           4       called here; are you aware of that or not?

           5   A.  I don't understand the term.  I may understand what

           6       you're talking about --

           7   Q.  I can you have answered my question, if you don't

           8       understand the term.  Yes, thank you very much.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, Mr Stern.

          10           Mr Keith?

          11   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

          13   MR BUTT:  No, thank you, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

          15   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you, sir.

          16                  Further questions by MR THOMAS

          17   MR THOMAS:  There's just one thing that Mr Stern put which

          18       factually isn't quite right and I would like the

          19       opportunity just to correct factually --

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Try your microphone.

          21   MR THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  Sir, Mr Stern put a factual scenario

          22       to the Professor which isn't quite right and I would

          23       just like the opportunity --

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I don't know if it was just

          25       a hypothesis --


                                            31
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  It wasn't a hypothesis.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, what's the problem?  You tell

           3       us and we'll let Professor Clasper --

           4   MR THOMAS:  It's in relation to when Mr Stern was asking you

           5       about your explanations in relation to how the gun may

           6       have been put over and you mentioned about you read in

           7       one of V53's statements about the flinching and that

           8       could be a possible -- people don't flinch when they get

           9       shot --

          10   A.  By and large, no.

          11   Q.  -- by and large.  You said that could be a possible

          12       explanation.  Would I be right in thinking that what you

          13       were explaining there, as a possibility, was that, for

          14       want of a better expression, the throw could have been

          15       part of what was perceived to be the flinch?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Right.  Can I give you the full evidence in relation to

          18       that.  Because that flinching movement that V53

          19       described, was after the first shot.  But between the

          20       first and second shot, which causes him to discharge the

          21       second shot, Mr Duggan is still holding the gun.  In

          22       other words, despite the fact that there was this

          23       described as a flinch, Mr Duggan has still got the gun

          24       in his hand, which is why V53 discharges the second

          25       shot.  So if that is the evidence that the jury accept,


                                            32
 

 

 


           1       that wouldn't explain the throw, would it, because the

           2       gun is still in the hand?

           3   A.  It would be up to the jury really to accept --

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's not an expert question, that's

           5       really a question about the evidence.  I know that

           6       Mr Stern tried very hard to get this flinch in, we have

           7       not really quite got it in evidence anyway.  Your point

           8       that you are making is a perfectly good point if you

           9       were ever able to make a speech to the jury in this

          10       case, which you're not, and Professor Clasper has been

          11       used for that particular purpose.  But it's not

          12       an expert question, it's a question of fact.  If you

          13       have still got a gun, you haven't thrown, really.  That

          14       is the answer.

          15           Anyone else, Mr Underwood?

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Please.

          17                Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Gathering everything together, Professor, if

          19       Mr Duggan had been in the course of throwing the gun

          20       while being shot twice, what sort of movement of his arm

          21       would you expect to get that weapon somewhere between 10

          22       and 20 feet?

          23   A.  It -- he could have done it by doing that (indicates),

          24       so by taking it from his side and doing that

          25       (indicates), I believe he would have been capable of


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       getting a weapon 14 to 21 feet, depending on what the

           2       exact measurement is.

           3   Q.  In terms of what is most probable in terms of this, what

           4       would be your evidence?  Let's assume he has that gun --

           5       we keep calling it a replica, that orange thing is in

           6       fact the same weight as the gun found at the scene.  To

           7       get that across there, what's most likely: is it going

           8       to be a flick with the arm held in or is it most likely

           9       to be a full-blown arm movement; can you help?

          10   A.  I cannot really help because I suspect you could do it

          11       with either.

          12   Q.  Moving back to the wounds, do you agree with Professor

          13       Pounder that the glancing wound -- however we're

          14       describing it -- to the side of the chest, could well

          15       have winded Mr Duggan?

          16   A.  I don't know.  I don't believe you can say that and,

          17       sorry to be evasive, but he may not have noticed that

          18       wound at the time it was created.

          19   Q.  That's why I'm asking whether it might have winded him.

          20       If he had been winded, he would have noticed that

          21       presumably?

          22   A.  I was not quite sure what Professor Pounder meant by the

          23       term "winded" but I believe he probably -- he may not

          24       have noticed it.

          25   Q.  May not have noticed it?


                                            34
 

 

 


           1   A.  May not have noticed it, I cannot say he would have

           2       noticed it.  I am not quite sure what he means by

           3       "winded", to be quite honest.

           4   Q.  I'm trying to distinguish between the two elements of

           5       the arm movement, you see.  I understand what you are

           6       saying is that the hole in the arm itself may not have

           7       been noticeable; is that your evidence on that?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  What I'm asking you now about is whether you can say one

          10       way or the other whether the chest component of that

          11       wound would, in fact, have winded him --

          12   A.  It might not have been noticeable, as well immediately

          13       after the event.

          14   Q.  Might not?

          15   A.  Again, I have seen similar-sized wounds on people who

          16       weren't very -- who weren't aware they had that wound.

          17   Q.  The problem with something like being winded, I suppose,

          18       is you are not always going to have an external notice

          19       of it, are you?

          20   A.  Yes, again, it depends what you mean by "winded", it's

          21       not a particularly scientific term.

          22   Q.  If somebody is winded, had the breath knocked out of

          23       them, are they likely to gather themselves together, if

          24       you see what I mean, get -- pull their arms into their

          25       chest, that sort of thing?


                                            35
 

 

 


           1   A.  (Pause)

           2           It's difficult to say.  I think I would then be

           3       drifting out of an area of expertise to be quite honest.

           4   Q.  Very well, I'll leave it there.  Thank you very much.

           5   MR STERN:  I'm sorry to interrupt, I wonder if we could just

           6       have a narrative explanation of the demonstration given

           7       by Professor Clasper so we can have it on the record.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The demonstration of which part?

           9       The throwing or the --

          10   MR STERN:  Yes.  One of the first or second questions my

          11       learned friend Mr Underwood asked.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right, we'll get Mr Underwood to

          13       repeat it and put it into words as he does it.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  If we are going to have a narrative version

          15       of it, let's put the gun in your hand, Professor, if

          16       I may.  (Handed)

          17           I keep being reassured that won't hurt anybody.

          18       Would you mind standing up, please?

          19           What I was asking you about is what you think is the

          20       likely movement, assuming that Mr Duggan had it in his

          21       hand and it started off somewhere down by his belt and

          22       he was in the course of throwing it, what the likelihood

          23       was of his arm movement.

          24   A.  I do not think you can say likelihood, if you say "Well,

          25       what is possible?"  If he had the gun here and he wanted


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       to throw it to the right he would rotate his arm mainly

           2       (indicates), so he would bring his arm out from the side

           3       but it would mainly be a rotation movement.  He would

           4       keep his fingers and rest -- I'm assuming he had his

           5       fingers there or there it's difficult to say.  His wrist

           6       would be still, his arm would be approximately -- his

           7       elbow would be approximately 90 degrees but could be

           8       there or there, but most likely about 90 degrees, and

           9       the main action would be a rotation action as well as

          10       bringing his arm away from his body (indicates).

          11   Q.  So he is flinging his forearm, basically?

          12   MR THOMAS:  Raising it?

          13   A.  Yes, he would raise it.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Raising his arm, moving his forearm away?

          15   A.  Then it would come across the front.

          16   Q.  Sorry, I'm trying to get this on the table.  So he's

          17       raising his forearm and bringing it out towards to the

          18       side of his body?

          19   A.  He's taken his upper arm away from his chest and

          20       probably forward and he's rotating his arm at the

          21       shoulder.  Probably with the elbow about 90 degrees.

          22       His wrist would be fixed with the hand pointing into the

          23       chest and he would have what's called a power grip,

          24       which is why, again, you can tell this hand would be

          25       pointed in.


                                            37
 

 

 


           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Just leave that there.

           3       I think that concludes your evidence then Professor

           4       Clasper.  Thank you very much for being with us today

           5       and apologies again for not completing you last week in

           6       your evidence but you've been very helpful.  Thank you,

           7       you're free now to go.

           8                      (The witness withdrew)

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Underwood?

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, before I call Sergeant Belfield, who

          11       will be the next witness, I was reminded by you last

          12       week that I need to read Semone Wilson's identification

          13       evidence into the record.  May I do that now?

          14        MS SEMONE WILSON (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  It's a statement which Semone Wilson made on

          16       16 August 2011 and it's our CS294.  What she says is:

          17           "I am the partner of Mark Wayne Duggan, [date of

          18       birth 15 September] 1981.  I have known Mark since I was

          19       a child, we have been together for 13 years.  I am the

          20       mother of three of Mark's children.

          21           "On Thursday, 4 August 2011 I saw Mark in the

          22       morning, as we lived together, at the address shown

          23       overleaf.  Later the same day I was told that Mark had

          24       died - after Police contact.

          25           "On Saturday, 6 August 2011, I attended Haringey


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       Mortuary where I formally identified Mark's body at

           2       12.30 pm.  I can say that the person I saw at Haringey

           3       Mortuary was my partner, Mark."

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  So that's that formal evidence in.

           6           So may I call Detective Sergeant Belfield, please?

           7            DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREW BELFIELD (sworn)

           8                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, Detective Sergeant.

          10   A.  Morning, sir.

          11   Q.  May I ask your full names please?

          12   A.  Andrew Lloyd Belfield.

          13   Q.  I called you a Detective Sergeant; is that your rank?

          14   A.  That is correct.

          15   Q.  Were you a Detective Sergeant in July 2011?

          16   A.  I was.

          17   Q.  Where were you stationed?

          18   A.  I was in the Borough of Hackney but I was in the

          19       Shoreditch Police Station in the borough.

          20   Q.  Were you involved in an investigation into an incident

          21       that took place in the Lagoon salon on 29 July?

          22   A.  I was.

          23   Q.  Can I ask you to look, first of all, at a document

          24       CD30892 that will come up on the screen.

          25           This has got that date and 2223 hours and your name


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       at the top; do you recognise this document?

           2   A.  I do, sir, yes.

           3   Q.  What is it?

           4   A.  That is my first entry on the crime report that is

           5       created from that incident.  Having been to the scene

           6       I've then returned to the police station to note down

           7       the actions that I had taken and, effectively, the story

           8       of the incident so far.

           9   Q.  Let me ask the basics first of all.  You were called to

          10       the scene, were you?

          11   A.  Yes.  I was called by the duty officer but I was already

          12       on the way when called because we listen to the radio

          13       and it was obviously something that I needed to attend

          14       to.

          15   Q.  You have spoken about a crime report.  How does the

          16       system work?  If you're a Detective and you are alerted

          17       to a crime, what happens in terms of the mechanics of

          18       writing it down and so on?

          19   A.  In this case, because the crime was, if you like, live

          20       and taking place as I was on duty, having got to the

          21       scene, an officer is designated by the duty officer, one

          22       of his Sergeants, to basically collate all the

          23       information that's happened at that scene and, when he

          24       returns to the police station, to make a crime report on

          25       a computer.  Likewise, when I get back to the police


                                            40
 

 

 


           1       station I can then write on that crime report as to my

           2       actions that I've taken place.

           3           But as an example of where I'm not on duty when

           4       an incident takes place, I could come in in the morning

           5       and crime would have happened overnight, so I will have

           6       had no dealings with that crime at all and I will have

           7       to go through what another officer has put on the crime

           8       report and review it, if you like.

           9   Q.  Is that what's called a "CRIS", this crime report?

          10   A.  Yes, that's the name of the computer system.

          11   Q.  It's a computerised system which people can update and

          12       go back and look at; is that right?

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   Q.  We gather from your evidence there that there are two

          15       ways in which a detective may become involved in

          16       something.  First of all, a crime may take place and

          17       a detective will be alerted to it in due course?

          18   A.  (Nods)

          19   Q.  The other is that you will actually go there while, as

          20       you say, the scene is live?

          21   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          22   Q.  In this case it happened to be the latter, did it?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  In terms of the way detectives work, ordinarily will

          25       a Detective Constable be the first point of contact or


                                            41
 

 

 


           1       will a Sergeant come in ordinarily or higher ranking?

           2   A.  It will very much depend on the nature of the incident

           3       and available resources but an incident such as this,

           4       having heard it come out, that it was clearly something

           5       that would need my attention as I was on duty, just the

           6       seriousness of it, so I would go.

           7           If it was a lower level, shall we say, then it would

           8       be suitable for a Detective Constable to go in my place.

           9   Q.  What was the first indication here of what was going on?

          10   A.  In the office we have a radio on, which is -- so all the

          11       police officers on the borough are listening to the same

          12       channel, the main channel, we call it.  A number of

          13       calls came in which, I think, were initially described

          14       as a shooting having taken place, then it was a stabbing

          15       and everything in between.  Suffice to say, it was

          16       a confused incident but it was -- clearly something was

          17       going on that I needed to go and deal with, regardless

          18       of the actual -- what had happened, whether it's

          19       shooting, stabbing, that's something that I would go to

          20       immediately.

          21   Q.  So you took initiative, you got yourself to the scene.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  What did you find?

          24   A.  On arrival at the scene, I found a large number of

          25       police officers.  They had begun to cordon off the area,


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       so there were two scenes effectively, the inside of the

           2       salon and the immediate area outside.  I then found the

           3       duty officer, the duty officer found me, we met up with

           4       his Sergeants who then briefed me on what they knew so

           5       far as to the nature of the incident.

           6           Having had that briefing, I then take -- I take over

           7       the investigation, take over the scene from the duty

           8       officer, who will then retire and deal with other

           9       matters.  Then I effectively start the investigation

          10       into that incident and I can talk through those things,

          11       if you like.

          12   Q.  So let's have a look at this entry of yours back on

          13       screen, if we may, and run you through to see what you

          14       did.

          15           You said:

          16           "Treated as a potential GBH ..."

          17           So grievous bodily harm?

          18   A.  Grievous bodily harm, yes.

          19   Q.  "... as injuries unknown."

          20           Help us with a broad distinction between actual

          21       bodily harm and grievous bodily harm, if you would?

          22   A.  Grievous bodily harm is the most serious injury you can

          23       receive.  The Home Office have made various descriptions

          24       of what is -- would be classed as GBH, but it would be

          25       a more serious injury, whereas an ABH, for example,


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       could be a cut, however that doesn't require much

           2       treatment, ie stitches or gluing, whereas a GBH could be

           3       a penetration injury, for example from a knife or other

           4       instrument.  Being shot would be a GBH injury.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You don't have to worry about the

           6       Home Office, it's the criminal law, isn't it?  Grievous

           7       bodily harm is really serious bodily harm, actual bodily

           8       harm is some bodily harm --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and in between that you have

          11       "wounding", which is where there is a cut of the skin.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  So you started by treating it as a potential

          14       grievous bodily harm, as the injuries were unknown, then

          15       you go on to say:

          16           "They have now been declared non-life threatening or

          17       changing.  Needs to be confirmed with the hospital.  Not

          18       believed to be very serious but review completed in case

          19       they are more serious."

          20           When you say "review completed", you mean this

          21       review?

          22   A.  Yes.  As in I've made an entry in the report --

          23       worst-case scenario that person dies.  I've made

          24       an entry on the CRIS report to show where -- what we've

          25       done so far and effectively what's been going on.


                                            44
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So you are being safe rather than sorry here?

           2   A.  Yes, effectively.

           3   Q.  Then it goes on:

           4           "This incident involved the victim being hit around

           5       the head by an object that may have been a firearm.  The

           6       victim was working in a hairdressers when the suspect

           7       came in, they had an argument and the suspect produced

           8       a black object and hit the victim around the head.

           9       A fight ensues and the victim manages to land some

          10       punches on the suspect.  The suspect then flees with the

          11       black object and escapes."

          12           Pausing there, you say "black object that may have

          13       been a firearm".  You continued with this investigation,

          14       I think, at least in a supervisory capacity, for some

          15       while after the initial date.  Did it ever become

          16       crystallised that it was, in fact, a gun?

          17   A.  No.  I mean the witnesses -- some witnesses say it was

          18       and certainly it could have been and I just keep an open

          19       mind as to whether it was.  However, moving forward

          20       a little bit, having viewed the CCTV, for example, you

          21       can see there is an object in his hand but to say what

          22       that was, to crystallize whether that is indeed

          23       a firearm, no, you couldn't do that.

          24   Q.  Very well.  Then we go on to "Victim":

          25           "Taken to hospital from the scene due to unknown


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       head injury."

           2           You repeat basically that it is not clear but not

           3       believed to be all that serious.  Then you go on to deal

           4       with the level of cooperation, if you like:

           5           "Clothing seized but he has refused to make

           6       a statement and is not cooperative.  Background

           7       information is that the suspect had an affair with the

           8       victim's then partner and mother of his children.  This

           9       was two years ago and resulted in their breakup.  This

          10       clearly resulted in bad feeling and it is believed the

          11       suspect went into the venue today for a haircut and not

          12       to confront the victim.  The victim has told him to

          13       leave because of the history resulting in the fight.

          14           "The victim has not named the suspect.  It is not

          15       known whether he actually doesn't know or is just

          16       refusing.  Officers at hospital have spoken to him about

          17       the threat but he believes the suspect was not trying to

          18       kill him and he is no in danger."

          19           So what level of cooperation were you getting from

          20       the person who was injured?

          21   A.  Very little.  He allowed his clothing to be seized but

          22       that was about it.  He refused to make a statement about

          23       what had happened or to sign a medical consent form,

          24       which allows us to go to a doctor and get the level of

          25       injuries which is required for prosecution.  But he was


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       willing to tell us a little bit of the background, and

           2       basically introduced to us the name of a woman who was

           3       a potential further source of information that we could

           4       go and speak to.  But, other than that, he was

           5       effectively uncooperative.

           6   Q.  Let's jump forward to that woman.  If we look at page

           7       CD32815, that will come up on the screen.  Did you send

           8       detectives off to talk to that lady?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Is this the email they sent back to you telling you how

          11       far they got with that lady?

          12   A.  That's correct, yes.

          13   Q.  Let's go through this:

          14           "Hi Andy, Steve asked us to go to [address redacted]

          15       to talk to the ex-girlfriend of the victim.

          16           "She gave us the following information.

          17           "She did not know Peter had been assaulted (and

          18       looked genuinely shocked when we told her) and is not in

          19       a relationship with Peter anymore."

          20           Then she goes on to talk about him.  Then starting

          21       a few lines down:

          22           "Peter gets very jealous and about three years ago

          23       he beat her up ..."

          24           It talks about that.  Then a few lines further down

          25       right at the right-hand side:


                                            47
 

 

 


           1           "She gave this ex's name as Kevin Brown.  She said

           2       that she used to go to school with him in Stoke

           3       Newington and that he was the same age as her (29) and

           4       born in June, although she didn't know the exact date.

           5       He used to live on Lordship Road or Park but that was

           6       years and years ago and again she couldn't remember the

           7       exact address.  When she got together with him years

           8       later, he had no fixed address and used to visit her in

           9       Dagenham where she was living at the time.

          10           "She described Kevin as about six foot tall hair in

          11       plaits slim build.  He had a little moustache at the

          12       time.  He was Jamaican but moved to the UK at 13 and

          13       speaks with an English accent.  He didn't have any

          14       tattoos and she can't remember any scars.  She claims

          15       not to have had any contact with him at all since they

          16       split up three years ago and not to have a number or

          17       address for him.

          18           "She said as far as she was aware Kevin hadn't been

          19       in trouble with the police and that he was intelligent."

          20           Then jumping a paragraph:

          21           "I have tried a few different searches on IIP."

          22           What's that?

          23   A.  It's basically an integrated search tool we have which

          24       searches across a number of different Met systems.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  "I have tried a few different searches on IIP


                                            48
 

 

 


           1       but cannot link a Kevin Brown to (her) or Peter --

           2       PNC ..."

           3           Is that Police National Computer?

           4   A.  That's correct.

           5   Q.  "... has no exact match.  I think that she may well be

           6       lying about his surname as there was a hesitation before

           7       she came out with it."

           8           So you've got a victim who's not prepared to give

           9       a statement or authority to get his medical records; is

          10       that right?

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  He gives the name of this lady who may have been the

          13       linchpin of the argument --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- and she misleads about who the potential aggressor

          16       is; is that fair?

          17   A.  That's correct, yes.

          18   Q.  Those of us who watch crime shows on TV get the

          19       impression somebody has to press charges before police

          20       can take a criminal action forward; is that how it is?

          21   A.  In what sense, sorry?  I don't understand.

          22   Q.  Here you've got a load of witnesses saying they've seen

          23       anything between a shooting and a stabbing, you've got

          24       a person who's got an injury, he's not giving you

          25       authority to get his medical records to find out what


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       the injury is.  He's not telling you who assaulted him,

           2       the girlfriend, who you think probably knows who it is,

           3       won't tell you who it is.  Do you need somebody to say

           4       "I want to press charges" or do you carry on a criminal

           5       investigation on your own?

           6   A.  I understand.  Not at all, no.  It makes our job harder

           7       without a doubt but, no, we don't need the victim to

           8       cooperate, we can continue with that investigation

           9       without their cooperation.

          10   Q.  So without their cooperation your obligation was to

          11       pursue this as an investigation, was it?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Let's go and see what you did.  Going back to CD30892,

          14       hairdresser's and nail bar at the bottom, under "Scene":

          15           "Hairdressers and nail bar.  The outside and inside

          16       was kept as a crime scene.  The outside is complete but

          17       the inside is being held until CCTV viewed."

          18           What do you mean "kept as a crime scene"?

          19   A.  At the scene, due to the sort of general lack of

          20       cooperation and confusion about exactly what had

          21       happened within there, even though by this point we had

          22       spoken to witnesses, I was made aware there was CCTV in

          23       the venue and, having looked at the system, it appeared

          24       new, good quality, so it was my belief at that time that

          25       that would capture the incident quite well.


                                            50
 

 

 


           1           However, we were unable to view it that night, just

           2       due to the -- not being able to access the system.  The

           3       manager came down, she couldn't access it, and she got

           4       in contact with the company that manages it,

           5       effectively, but they could come down the following day.

           6       So I made a decision to, instead of carrying out, if you

           7       like, a blind forensic examination on the side, I wanted

           8       to watch the CCTV with a Scenes of Crime Officer, both

           9       watch it together and then do a more directed forensic

          10       examination of the scene, just to hopefully get a better

          11       result.

          12   Q.  Does that mean you had to close the salon?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Then you go on to say:

          15           "The venue was secured with PC."

          16           So a police constable was left guarding it; is that

          17       right?

          18   A.  Yes, I effectively managed to persuade the manager that

          19       it was in the best interests to keep that scene closed,

          20       even though it was on a Saturday, which unfortunately

          21       was her busiest day, but I did manage to get her

          22       cooperation.  So it was kept as a crime scene, a PC was

          23       kept on it all night and through the morning, until that

          24       examination could take place.

          25   Q.  Then at the bottom of the page:


                                            51
 

 

 


           1           "Forensic exam awaits on scene."

           2           That's pretty much what you have told us?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Then:

           5           "Clothing seized from victim."

           6           As you see.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Then over the page, under "Witnesses":

           9           "Numerous witnesses as detailed."

          10           We can look at them if we need to but you have

          11       a whole number of people who give short accounts of what

          12       they saw.  Were witnesses cooperative?

          13   A.  The majority were, and it's fair to say we weren't short

          14       of witnesses, that wasn't the issue.  But we were pretty

          15       much overwhelmed by the volume of witnesses present.

          16       Some had seen the actual offence taking place right down

          17       to people who had been passing in the street and saw

          18       something but they didn't know what.

          19           So what I had to do, as one of my first

          20       investigative actions, was to speak to these witnesses

          21       who were present and that's part of the briefing

          22       I received, and to then, having had the details of all

          23       the witnesses and who saw what, to take what we call the

          24       key or significant accounts from the witnesses who could

          25       give the best evidence, in that case that's people who


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       saw the incident take place in the salon.

           2   Q.  Did anybody actually recognise the assailant?

           3   A.  No.  One of the key things -- that 's one of the first

           4       questions you need to ascertain: did anyone know who the

           5       suspect was and the answer to that was no.  Regardless

           6       of the volume of witnesses available, no one actually

           7       knew who this suspect was.

           8   Q.  Right.  Then we move down the page:

           9           "CCTV awaits download at scene."

          10           Then:

          11           "Borough CCTV didn't catch initial incident but

          12       a review needs to take place.

          13           "Enquiries for private CCTV are also needed."

          14           What does that mean?

          15   A.  Basically, obviously we've established there was CCTV at

          16       the scene.  The council -- when I say "Borough CCTV

          17       film", I mean local authority CCTV.  That didn't catch

          18       it, there weren't cameras actually there, so that had

          19       been established at the scene that that was of no use at

          20       all.  Again, depending on what was captured at the CCTV

          21       in a shop, further enquiries would be needed from

          22       potentially other private CCTV.  However, at this point,

          23       basically I was satisfied -- or hoping to satisfy that

          24       the CCTV in the salon was going to be the best we were

          25       going to get, and so further enquiries may be necessary


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       but until I had seen that CCTV I didn't know the answer

           2       to that question.

           3   Q.  Okay.  Then "H2H"; what does that mean?

           4   A.  "H2H" is slang for something called house to house

           5       enquiries.  The official name now is locally directed

           6       enquiries -- would be the words.  But that's again one

           7       of the actions at the scene and the uniformed officers,

           8       in fairness, had started this procedure.  When

           9       an incident takes place, officers will sort of go --

          10       what we call house to house, look at neighbours,

          11       surrounding premises to try and gather further

          12       witnesses, anyone else see anything of value.

          13           So that process had taken place and a decision on

          14       whether to expand that would again depend on a number of

          15       factors, but whether we needed more witnesses because,

          16       again, we didn't know who the suspect was.

          17   Q.  Right.  Then this investigation was, I think, taken over

          18       by Detective Constable -- I say taken over, was adopted,

          19       if you like, by Detective Constable Faulkner, with you

          20       supervising him; was that right?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  It went on for some weeks and was eventually closed with

          23       no result, I think it's fair to say.  It was then

          24       re-opened when the gun found in Ferry Lane was

          25       identified as having this victim's DNA on it and


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       Mr Hutchinson-Foster's DNA on it --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- I think, and, as a result of that, I think the

           4       officer who was investigating that part of it viewed

           5       this CCTV and recognised Mr Hutchinson-Foster from it;

           6       is that correct?

           7   A.  I understand that from having read the crime report,

           8       yes.

           9   Q.  In due course a complaint was made against you

          10       internally to the effect that you could and should have

          11       done more about investigating this crime; is that right?

          12   A.  That's correct, yes.

          13   Q.  You were interviewed, I think, under caution about that?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Can we look at a record of that?  If we pick it up at

          16       CD32417, this is a 18-page note of the record.  I just

          17       want to ask you some things about it, if I may.

          18           Going over to page 2 of it, you, right at the

          19       bottom -- sorry, the last three boxes of the page, you

          20       say:

          21           "DS Belfield made the decision to keep the scene

          22       open as a crime scene overnight until the CCTV could be

          23       downloaded the next day.  This was not a popular

          24       decision as the level of the assault identified did not

          25       warrant that decision."


                                            55
 

 

 


           1           Is that right, that this was an excess of caution,

           2       if you like?

           3   A.  Yes, absolutely.  By this point I was fairly certain

           4       that it wasn't going to be a grievous bodily harm matter

           5       but an actual bodily harm matter, and I knew that from

           6       the results from the hospital but, yes, nonetheless

           7       better to be safe than sorry, I kept the scene overnight

           8       in case --

           9   Q.  Then it goes on:

          10           "He [that's you] didn't do anything about other CCTV

          11       that may have been available at Scooter Den as it was

          12       closed."

          13           That's a nearby shop is, it?

          14   A.  Scooter Den was nearby, however that camera wasn't

          15       looking in the right direction and, having viewed the

          16       CCTV the following day, the suspect comes from the

          17       opposite direction to where the shop was and it would

          18       have been of no value.

          19   Q.  Then at the bottom of the page:

          20           "DS Belfield was informed that there were some ten

          21       witnesses of which two were identified as key witnesses.

          22       DS Belfield directed that statements be obtained from

          23       them."

          24           Is that correct?

          25   A.  Yes, again having spoken to -- again, these are the


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       people in the shop themselves -- having spoken to them,

           2       I discovered they had the best evidence, if you like,

           3       and out of all the witnesses those are the statements

           4       I chose to have taken.

           5   Q.  Right.  Then, if we go halfway down page 3 of 10:

           6           "DS Belfield opinion was that this was an ABH and

           7       not a GBH based on the Home Office rules.  According to

           8       DS Belfield anyone can put a firearms flag on the CRIS

           9       record, this allegation was reviewed by Superintendent

          10       [redacted] who decided not to put a firearms flag on the

          11       allegation."

          12           Can you explain the firearms flag for us?

          13   A.  Crime reports have a system where -- what we call

          14       "flagging" where -- another example is if a knife was

          15       used in a crime it would be flagged with a knife flag.

          16       On the evidence available at the time, the

          17       Superintendent chose not to put a firearms flag on the

          18       CRIS report, I think on the basis that it was -- it

          19       could have been or it couldn't have been, there was no

          20       definitive answer to whether this object was a firearm.

          21       That's effectively what the flag is.

          22   Q.  Right.  So was it ever flagged as a firearms incident --

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  -- as far as you were concerned.  Thank you.

          25           Then if we go over the page, the third box down on


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       page 4:

           2           "He contacted the victim ... on 30th [the next day]

           3       who stated that he did not wish to pursue this

           4       allegation.  DS Belfield did not record this because he

           5       must have omitted to do so."

           6           You spoke to the victim that day, did you?

           7   A.  Yes, the following morning, basically to check on his

           8       condition, and this was the first time I had spoken to

           9       him and again just to discuss with him whether he was

          10       willing to, you know, make a statement, is there

          11       anything we can do to support him or anything we can do

          12       to obtain his cooperation.  So that's when I spoke to

          13       him.

          14   Q.  Right.  Then if we go on the next box:

          15           "The CCTV was downloaded on 30th and noted the

          16       following day ... with a reference that it will be

          17       passed to the DEU."

          18           That's what?

          19   A.  The DEU is the Digital Evidence Unit.  The reason I have

          20       said that it is that they were a local unit who

          21       circulate pictures of CCTV where you have

          22       an unidentified suspect.  The CCTV disc that I had

          23       obtained on the Saturday I then tried to play in my

          24       office and was unable due to the system not working, and

          25       they have much better computers so it would be passed to


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       them to see if they can access it and get images from

           2       the CCTV.

           3   Q.  What then happens?  Let's say you've got an assault like

           4       this, nobody is telling you that they know who the

           5       aggressor was and you may have -- he may have been

           6       captured on the CCTV.  Can you, I don't know, put

           7       posters up or what?  What happens from the CCTV?

           8   A.  There's a system where -- the Digital Evidence Unit --

           9       there's two systems, the local system is the Digital

          10       Evidence Unit and they create a briefing, which is

          11       electronic that officers can access from any computer

          12       terminal and on this briefing they will put the best

          13       still image up of the suspect and they will literally

          14       "Do you recognise that person?"  If you do, then there's

          15       a process of making statements to how you know them,

          16       et cetera.  But officers have to proactively go onto

          17       this briefing to look at it.

          18   Q.  This assumes, does it, that police officers will be in

          19       a police station, go on their computer and look to see

          20       whether this unit has put up some photographs overnight

          21       of somebody that the unit might be interested in?

          22   A.  Yes.  The onus is on the officers to look at them.

          23   Q.  Was there any other outlet for this, by which the images

          24       might have been broadcast to see whether anybody knew

          25       this person?


                                            59
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  So taking it -- that's the local side.  There's

           2       another system which goes Met-wide, which is a separate

           3       sort of central unit and, again, you can pass the images

           4       to them and then they will circulate it Met-wide across

           5       all boroughs and all specialist units, again on

           6       a dedicated briefing that officers then have to go and

           7       look at.

           8   Q.  But, again, it's only to police officers and only to

           9       those officers who are interested enough to go onto the

          10       website, as it were; that is right?

          11   A.  That's correct, yes.

          12   Q.  Then it goes on, it will be passed to DEU:

          13           "DS Belfield now believes that it never was.  It was

          14       the weekend and there is no DEU operating on a Sunday.

          15       He believes that this was a DC Faulkner's

          16       responsibility."

          17           Do we get from that that, looking back on this, when

          18       you were interviewed about this, you find that that

          19       didn't happen?

          20   A.  That was a sort of amalgamation of a few points.  What

          21       that is saying is that, as it was the weekend, the

          22       Digital Evidence Unit wasn't open, so it could not go to

          23       them on the Saturday or the Sunday, it had to wait until

          24       Monday morning and, as part of my investigative strategy

          25       that I put on the crime report to DC Faulkner, obviously


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       take those discs to the Digital Evidence Unit and see if

           2       we can access them there and get the images to, again,

           3       as I have just discussed, circulate them.

           4           So at that point that's what I'm saying it would be

           5       DC Faulkner's responsibility to do.

           6   Q.  Right.  We have spoken about this CRIS system, the

           7       computerised record.  What was your responsibility in

           8       relation to that CRIS system as of 30th?

           9   A.  Of the 30th, it remained in my name, so I was still, if

          10       you like, the investigating officer.  On the 31st, the

          11       following day, I then set an investigative strategy

          12       which detailed what I want the new investigating officer

          13       to do and on doing that I set that as -- changed that to

          14       DC Faulkner.  He becomes the investigating officer and

          15       then I become supervising officer of that investigation.

          16           Now, when I do that, there was a box you tick which

          17       is basically a supervision box, and that's to say at

          18       that point -- I've supervised it up to that point I am

          19       now passing it to another officer to investigate.

          20           That crime effectively disappears from what we call

          21       our work file, so it goes off to that officer.  Seven

          22       days later, it pops up again onto my work file to then

          23       review what actions have been taken in those seven days.

          24   Q.  So subject to you setting a strategy on the 31st, it

          25       doesn't then become your responsibility again until,


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       what, 7 or so August?

           2   A.  Yes, basically seven days from then, like, yes,

           3       7 August.

           4   Q.  Which is of course outside our remit.  All I want to ask

           5       you about that then is what investigative strategy you

           6       set?

           7   A.  It's on the CRIS report if you've got it or I can ...

           8   Q.  We can go into detail if you want but just very broadly?

           9   A.  Very broadly.  Obviously, the main thing is to circulate

          10       that CCTV.  I made a decision around the witnesses,

          11       that, pending -- we keep the witnesses we've taken,

          12       pending a result from the CCTV; we'll then review that.

          13       To make sure the forensics have been kept together,

          14       which I already knew, and that would be pending, again,

          15       identifying the suspect.  (Pause)

          16           And to contact the victim again to -- some other

          17       little things about -- the victim had lost his wallet,

          18       so try and identify where his wallet was.  Take an

          19       elimination DNA sample from the victim.  I think those

          20       were the main things.

          21   Q.  All right.  Does that even now, in retrospect, with

          22       everything you know; does that strike you as

          23       a reasonable strategy?

          24   A.  Yes, absolutely.  I stand by that strategy as I set it

          25       down.


                                            62
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I want to put, to get to you -- so you can comment on

           2       it, the criticisms that have been made subsequently.

           3           Can we look, please, at CD32223.

           4           This was put together by a Detective Chief Inspector

           5       much later on, having -- after the DNA profiles had come

           6       together of this victim and this assailant.

           7           If we look towards the bottom of this page, "Scene

           8       Swabs", we see:

           9           "Swabs from the victim's hands and mouth, and his

          10       bloodstained clothing ..."

          11           Were taken.  And swabs from the scene.  Was that

          12       what you did or was that part of what was done as

          13       a result of your strategy?

          14   A.  Yes, that's what I did on Friday night and Saturday

          15       afternoon.  The scenes of crime officer did that, that

          16       was their role, but I was there supervising it,

          17       effectively.

          18   Q.  Then we see something about your entry at the bottom, of

          19       30 (31st?) July:

          20           "Not to take further statements until the result of

          21       CCTV."

          22           Then:

          23           "Actions identified to circulate CCTV images and

          24       liaise with BFM."

          25           BFM?


                                            63
 

 

 


           1   A.  BFM is Borough Forensic Manager.

           2   Q.  Then if we go over the page, 32224, then under

           3       "Outstanding Issues Identified", it says:

           4           "There is no record of who's spoken to the victim

           5       and what if any account he gave, although it does say he

           6       is unwilling to provide a statement."

           7           Whether or not there was a record, you definitely

           8       spoke to the victim?

           9   A.  Yes.  I mean, it's on the crime report twice that I did.

          10       I'm somewhat confused by that entry, to be honest.

          11   Q.  Then it says:

          12           "There's no record of the enquiries conducted with

          13       his partner."

          14           We have just seen the email about that, have we?

          15       Was some further record supposed to be made of that?

          16   A.  I think he's making reference to the fact that that

          17       doesn't appear on the actual crime report; we had it in

          18       an e-mail.

          19   Q.  "The swabs do not appear to have been submitted.  This

          20       is confirmed by speaking to DC Faulkner, who states that

          21       he cannot locate the swabs now (believed GN custody was

          22       closed and a clear out has been conducted)."

          23           Can you help us with that?

          24   A.  I think that means the physical location of where they

          25       were.  The custody suite would have an exhibits freezer


                                            64
 

 

 


           1       and at that stage, by the looks of that, it looks like

           2       there's been a clear out, but they would be somewhere on

           3       the borough, and they were subsequently found --

           4   Q.  Then:

           5           "The further CCTV enquiries identified during the

           6       initial investigation and the supervisory reviews do not

           7       appear to have been carried out."

           8           Help us with that?

           9   A.  In relation to further CCTV enquiries, as I said we had

          10       the best possible CCTV we were ever going to get and

          11       I made the decision to focus on that as opposed to

          12       making -- using further resources to try and find extra

          13       CCTV, which I wouldn't -- isn't going to take us any

          14       further forward.

          15   Q.  Okay.  The next bullet point is:

          16           "There is no record of how the CCTV stills were

          17       circulated.  (Officer believed circulated on Caught on

          18       Camera - but no record)."

          19           Is Caught on Camera the local borough --

          20   A.  Caught on Camera is the Met-wide one.  Again, that's --

          21       probably DC Faulkner would be probably better placed to

          22       answer that.

          23   Q.  I can ask him about that.  Then:

          24           "There are a large number of witnesses from whom

          25       statements have not been taken.  There are CADs from 12


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       witnesses calling police, all of whom see the incident,

           2       none of whom have had statements taken.

           3           "Only 4 of the CAD callers are listed as witnesses

           4       on the CRIS.  There are 15 other witnesses listed on the

           5       VIW pages of the CRIS, only two of whom have had

           6       statements taken from them.

           7           "There are details of five further witnesses on the

           8       CRIS dets pages who are not on the VIW pages, and from

           9       whom no accounts appear to have been recorded.  In total

          10       there are appear to be 32 identified witnesses and only

          11       three statements.  The statements that have been taken

          12       are very poor quality."

          13           What's all that about, please?

          14   A.  What the DCI is saying is, as I said earlier, we had

          15       a vast number of witnesses but, due to my immediate

          16       attendance at the scene and the briefings I received, it

          17       was established that, although there are a large number

          18       of witnesses, none of them knew who the suspect was.

          19       And I made the decision, just due to the overwhelming

          20       number available, to take what I would call the key or

          21       significant ones, ie those who had seen the incident

          22       take place and could potentially identify the subject

          23       again.

          24           Post arrest or charge of a suspect, that situation

          25       changes because you cannot just ignore the fact there


                                            66
 

 

 


           1       are lots of other witnesses.  If it goes to trial, that

           2       person is entitled to -- the fact there are other

           3       witnesses who may have different opinions.

           4           My decision at that time, with the resources

           5       available, was to keep to the witnesses we had and to

           6       use our resources elsewhere.  Those witnesses are all

           7       kept, all the details are all on the computer, they are

           8       not going anywhere.  And at a later date full statements

           9       can be taken.  But I did not believe that those

          10       statements would take us any further forward in

          11       identifying the suspect.

          12   Q.  We know that there was in fact a gun used here.  We know

          13       that gun ended up being found at Ferry Lane and an awful

          14       lot has ensued as a result of that, which is why we're

          15       all here.

          16           Knowing everything you know now, looking back on the

          17       decision you took to narrow down your focus on the key

          18       witnesses, do you think you did anything wrong there?

          19   A.  No, not at all.  I was absolutely 100 per cent confident

          20       at that scene that nobody knew the identity of that

          21       suspect.

          22   Q.  It goes on, next bullet point:

          23           "The CCTV shows the salon was crowded with staff and

          24       customers at the time of the incident, two or three of

          25       whom got directly involved in physically struggling with


                                            67
 

 

 


           1       the suspect.  There is no record of what enquiries have

           2       been done to identify them."

           3           Then over the page:

           4           "There is no record of CCTV enquiries conducted on

           5       the" --

           6           Actually, that's a different bullet point:

           7           "CCTV enquiries conducted on the suspect's route

           8       from the scene."

           9           Take the first of those.  No record of what

          10       enquiries had been done to identify the people who

          11       struggled with the assailant; is that right?

          12   A.  No, that's not the case at all.  At least one of the

          13       witness statements we took was a gentleman who was very

          14       much involved in that struggle.  In fact, he was having

          15       his hair cut by the victim at the time it happened, so

          16       he was very much in it all.

          17           And, yes, I spoke to everyone who was at that -- in

          18       that salon.  Again, that's a false entry, if you like.

          19   Q.  Then over the page then, which should be a separate

          20       bullet point:

          21           "There is no record of CCTV enquiries conducted on

          22       the suspect's route from the scene."

          23           Is that what you were telling us before?  You

          24       decided to focus down on the very good CCTV you had

          25       actually got of the suspect rather than trace --


                                            68
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, absolutely.

           2   Q.  Right.  Then:

           3           "No enquiries appear to have been conducted in

           4       relation to bus CCTV (a number of buses are shown

           5       passing the scene on the internal shop's CCTV)."

           6           Is that right for a start?

           7   A.  Again this is in an ideal world with infinite resources;

           8       you could try and track down all the buses that happened

           9       to be passing at the same time --

          10   Q.  Were there other --

          11   A.  -- however, already armed with the best possible CCTV

          12       we're ever going to get, that was not a priority for me

          13       to do that.

          14   Q.  There were other crimes going on, were there, in the

          15       borough?

          16   A.  Well, there was -- buses do have CCTV on, and there may

          17       have been buses passing at the time, but, again, the

          18       CCTV we had was the best possible CCTV we were going to

          19       get and I didn't waste any time or resources on an

          20       errand that we didn't have the staff or manpower to do.

          21   Q.  The next bullet point:

          22           "CAD 9141 contains a reference to a 'silver car'

          23       speeding away from the scene; there is no record of any

          24       enquiries in relation to this vehicle."

          25           The inference there is that the assailant may well


                                            69
 

 

 


           1       have had, if you like, a get-away car and, if you had

           2       done CCTV work or other work, you may have got

           3       a registration number or something.  What do you say to

           4       that?

           5   A.  That car in particular, as far as I am concerned, was

           6       traced and was believed to be a police car.  I don't

           7       believe there was any -- I thought that was dealt with

           8       at the time.  It was one of the actions I took at the

           9       scene.  That was that we called a linked report to the

          10       main report, and one of the things I did at the scene

          11       was for our control room to look through all the reports

          12       that had been linked to this incident.  And there is

          13       talk of a silver car, but it was believed to be a police

          14       car, and it's written on the report.

          15   Q.  Okay.  Next bullet point:

          16           "The CRIS dets mention that the victim says his

          17       wallet was taken at the scene.  It is unclear whether it

          18       was taken by police or the suspect.  There is no further

          19       reference to enquiries conducted on his wallet, bank

          20       cards etc."

          21           You told me five minutes ago you did do some work on

          22       the wallet?  What is the situation?

          23   A.  Yes absolutely, to try and ascertain whether we've

          24       collected it from the scene, but we hadn't, effectively

          25       was the answer.


                                            70
 

 

 


           1           But that wasn't part of the investigative strategy,

           2       in a sense, because that's not going to take us any

           3       forward; that's just to try and get the victim's wallet

           4       back if we had it.  And we didn't, was the final

           5       outcome.

           6   Q.  Is there a loose end there?  Could it be the man who did

           7       the assault took the bank cards and may have been using

           8       them?

           9   A.  No.  There was absolutely no suggestion that -- or his

          10       wallet had been taken by the suspect.

          11   Q.  Then it goes on to say:

          12           "There is no update on the CRIS report from 31 July

          13       until 29 September."

          14           Again, your responsibility only was to review it on

          15       the 7th or so of August, was it, first, after the

          16       31st --

          17   A.  Yes, straight after the -- yes.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When did you know about this wallet

          19       being taken then?

          20   A.  When I spoke to the victim on the Saturday morning,

          21       he'd -- he had obviously ended up in hospital and, at

          22       some point, he believed he had his wallet on him in the

          23       shop and then, being at the hospital, he no longer had

          24       it.  And his presumption was we had picked it up from

          25       the scene.  And I was just explaining to him that,


                                            71
 

 

 


           1       having looked back through all the items taken and the

           2       examination of the scene, that there was no wallet

           3       present.  And to this day, I don't know what happened to

           4       that wallet.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Then DCI Foote's note says:

           6           "In conclusion, there is scope for this

           7       investigation to progress without the victim for an

           8       assault offence but for a firearms offence.  This may

           9       have been aided by interviewing the identified

          10       witnesses.  Likewise, the submission of the swabs may

          11       have identified a suspect."

          12           Can you help us with whether any of the suggestions

          13       made here led to any criminal action?

          14   A.  Well, talking through that review.  As I said earlier,

          15       absolutely, there's scope to progress without the

          16       victim, and that's what we were doing.  I completely

          17       agree with that.

          18           Where he discusses "for a firearms offence", of

          19       course he can do that as he now has a firearm with the

          20       DNA on it, which I didn't have or had absolutely no

          21       knowledge of at that time, which he now had.

          22           Witnesses had been interviewed so ... further

          23       statements could be taken.

          24           I disagree about the submission of the swabs.  DNA

          25       results, forensic results, take weeks to come back.


                                            72
 

 

 


           1       It's not a fast-time thing, and in the timeframe that

           2       we're talking about here, you know, the results for DNA

           3       are not going to come back before 4 August, for example.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you, Detective Sergeant.  You may well

           5       be asked more questions but that's all I've got.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Mr Underwood.

           7       Yes, Mr Thomas?

           8                      Questions by MR THOMAS

           9   MR THOMAS:  I know that we started slightly --

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I thought what I was going to do was

          11       just finish slightly earlier, so we're all having

          12       a longer lunch break rather than breaking now.

          13   MR THOMAS:  That's fine.  I just have one eye to time.

          14           Detective Sergeant, I trust I won't keep you too

          15       long; just a few questions.

          16           Can I put this into context.  This incident in the

          17       salon occurred on 29 July.

          18   A.  That's correct.

          19   Q.  Which was a Friday.  We know that the incident

          20       concerning Mark Duggan occurred essentially a week

          21       later, okay, on 4 August.

          22   A.  (Nods)

          23   Q.  So the issue -- and we know that the same gun involved

          24       in both incidents, 29th and 4 August.  So the issue here

          25       is whether or not you could have done more, you and your


                                            73
 

 

 


           1       team, could have done more or whether you were acting,

           2       if I can put it this way, in a pedestrian fashion; do

           3       you follow?  That's the issue.

           4   A.  Okay.

           5   Q.  All right.  So let's take it in stages.  Let's start

           6       with what you were just telling the jury just a moment

           7       ago, that when you arrived you arrived you -- you

           8       arrived on which day?

           9   A.  Friday.

          10   Q.  So Friday.  So not too long after the incident?

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  You had identified, on the Friday, that there was CCTV.

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   Q.  I am not going to go into the other CCTV, the ones on

          15       the buses and all the rest of it.  You said that this

          16       was CCTV in the salon; this was the best type of CCTV

          17       that there was.

          18   A.  (Nods)

          19   Q.  Nods don't pick up?

          20   A.  That's correct.

          21   Q.  All right.  When did you view it?

          22   A.  Saturday afternoon.

          23   Q.  Now, you viewed the CCTV on the Saturday afternoon.  It

          24       was apparent, wasn't it, that a gun had been used?

          25   A.  Not from the CCTV.


                                            74
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Can we call up a couple of documents, please.  I want to

           2       call up, please, the following documents.  The first

           3       document is CHF0298.

           4           This is part of a, I believe -- can you see it on

           5       the screen?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  What is this document?  What is this police document?

           8       You tell us.

           9   A.  That is the, I believe -- the crime report we have just

          10       been discussing.

          11   Q.  Yes.  So can we just go to the bottom of that page of

          12       this crime report.  This is in November 2011, about

          13       three months or so after Mark Duggan's -- three or four

          14       months after Mark Duggan has been killed.

          15           So this is what it says.  It says that if we go to

          16       the second to last paragraph, the one above that:

          17           "He was assaulted by KHF storming into the barbers

          18       and striking him with a firearm.

          19           "Blood from Osadbey has been found on the weapon,

          20       along with DNA of KHF.  Furthermore, CCTV taken from the

          21       venue clearly shows KHF committing the assault, and

          22       a handgun in his hand."

          23           Now, I was just saying to you a moment ago that the

          24       CCTV showed that he was using a handgun and you just

          25       said no it didn't; are we talking about different CCTVs?


                                            75
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, not at all.  My viewing it on the Saturday -- and

           2       I stick by the fact that it's unclear as to whether he's

           3       carrying a firearm.

           4   Q.  Sorry, could you say that again?

           5   A.  From my viewing of the CCTV on Saturday, it is unclear

           6       that the object he's carrying is a firearm.

           7   Q.  Pause there.  Can I take you to another document.  Can

           8       we turn to CHF0195.  Again, I think this is still part

           9       of the crime report; is that right?

          10   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          11   Q.  Can we go to the second to last paragraph at the bottom

          12       of the page that begins:

          13           "The viewing of ..."

          14           Do you see that?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Let me read it out for the jury:

          17           "The viewing of this CCTV has been done by DC

          18       Jenkins who knows and recognises the named suspect from

          19       a previous dealing with him.  A recognition statement

          20       (evidence) will be compiled by DC Jenkins.  This

          21       statement purports that the aggressor was indeed the

          22       suspect and is further evidential support of the DNA

          23       found on the gun.  This favours a prosecution against

          24       the suspect who cannot claim he was held it at some

          25       point prior to this incident."


                                            76
 

 

 


           1           Then it's this sentence I want you to concentrate

           2       on:

           3           "Indeed this CCTV shows the suspect at one point

           4       actually producing the gun and pointing it at the

           5       victim."

           6           So can you help us, Detective Sergeant, were you

           7       looking at some different kind of CCTV?

           8   A.  The main difference is DC Jenkins knows it's a firearm

           9       at this stage.

          10   Q.  Forgive me.  You had been told on the Friday, had you

          11       not, that there was a possibility that a firearm had

          12       been used, correct?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Right.  You see the CCTV on the Saturday.  Are you

          15       saying that, "I was a bit unsure as to what he was

          16       producing was a firearm or not"; is that your evidence?

          17   A.  I kept an open mind as to what the object was, yes.

          18   Q.  So the victim and the suspect were black, correct?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  This was a black on black crime and there was

          21       a possibility that a firearm was in use.  You were

          22       keeping an open mind, correct?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Did you refer it to Trident?

          25   A.  No.


                                            77
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Why not?

           2   A.  That's not how the procedure works -- procedures work.

           3   Q.  What did you do.  What did you do on the Saturday,

           4       keeping an open mind.  Tell us.

           5   A.  Well, I retrieved the CCTV, pending circulating the

           6       images from it.

           7   Q.  Detective Sergeant, may I suggest that you were treating

           8       this in a very pedestrian fashion, were you not?

           9   A.  It's not the case at all.

          10   Q.  Had you acted, there was a real possibility that Kevin

          11       Hutchinson-Foster would have been identified and that

          12       gun would have been off the streets of London.

          13   A.  As I've stated, I made all the appropriate actions to

          14       get that CCTV circulated as soon as possible.

          15   MR THOMAS:  That's all I ask, sir.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you.

          17           I think next on my list is Mr Keith.  Mr Keith, do

          18       you have any questions?

          19                      Questions by MR KEITH

          20   MR KEITH:  Just a few, please, officer.  I just want to ask

          21       some questions on behalf of the Metropolitan Police.

          22       You'll no doubt be asked further more detailed questions

          23       about the nature of the investigation in a moment, but

          24       just some broad points if I may.

          25           Your role right at the start appears then to have


                                            78
 

 

 


           1       been to investigate because you were at the scene?

           2   A.  That's correct.

           3   Q.  Latterly, the matter was handed over formally to

           4       DC Faulkner and you became the supervising officer?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  The victim didn't appear to want to cooperate at all; is

           7       that right?

           8   A.  That's correct.

           9   Q.  You had checks carried out by a night duty officer --

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  -- in relation to the former partner --

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  -- because there was a reference to a former girlfriend

          14       who may have been involved in this or may have been the

          15       reason for this assault, but she provided a false name.

          16   A.  That's correct.

          17   Q.  The CCTV wasn't immediately available because the system

          18       owner, the company that operated the CCTV, had to attend

          19       in order to be able to download it?

          20   A.  That's correct.

          21   Q.  All right.  So that took you to the next day, until the

          22       Saturday.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  So we're now only four or five days before the Thursday

          25       when Mr Duggan was shot.


                                            79
 

 

 


           1           Again, just in broad outline, in relation to the

           2       CCTV, you looked at that yourself?

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  You formed your own views in relation to the

           5       significance of that material?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where was it that you looked at it?

           8   A.  In the salon itself.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In the salon?

          10   A.  On a small screen that they had in the -- basically

          11       attached to the equipment of it and I watched it with

          12       the scene of crime officer.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          14   MR KEITH:  As you have told us, you had anticipated that the

          15       CCTV would be distributed, or stills from it, would be

          16       distributed so that somebody might be able to recognise

          17       the person on the CCTV still.

          18   A.  That's correct.

          19   Q.  Of course, that presumes that somebody would recognise

          20       the person on the stills; is that right?

          21   A.  Yes, absolutely.

          22   Q.  This system that you have described, whereby stills can

          23       be distributed around the Metropolitan Police, do you

          24       know how long it takes for that distribution to work?

          25       Is it done daily, is it done twice a week or weekly; can


                                            80
 

 

 


           1       you help us?

           2   A.  To the best of my knowledge, because you were competing

           3       against 31 other boroughs and multiple other specialist

           4       units, it's not a process, but I couldn't give you

           5       an exact time.

           6   Q.  Does anything turn on the nature of the offence being

           7       identified?  You have told us that, on the face of it,

           8       keeping an open mind, this appeared to be an actual

           9       bodily harm.  Would that have affected the speed with

          10       which the CCTV would then be distributed?

          11   A.  Yes.  As an example we discussed earlier about grievous

          12       bodily harm that would take priority over an offence of

          13       actual bodily harm.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The missing wallet never turned it

          15       into a robbery then?

          16   A.  No, there was no suggestion of a robbery, no.

          17   MR KEITH:  May we suppose that the likelihood of someone

          18       identifying that individual from the still depends on

          19       how well he's known --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- either in Hackney or in London generally?

          22   A.  That's correct.

          23   Q.  With a degree of hindsight now, do you know whether

          24       Mr Hutchinson-Foster was well-known in Hackney?

          25   A.  I have read a statement from the intel manager who wrote


                                            81
 

 

 


           1       one to say that, suffice to say, he was not that

           2       well-known in Hackney.

           3   Q.  Because of course we're looking at this now with

           4       a degree of hindsight because the matter was

           5       reinvestigated when the DNA link to the gun and to the

           6       incident on 4 August became clear.

           7   A.  That's correct.

           8   Q.  You've been asked about Trident.  Can we just take

           9       a breath and look at it disproportionately.  Do you know

          10       what criteria are applicable for referring an assault to

          11       Trident, at that time?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Can you tell us, please?

          14   A.  Trident will take on an investigation if a firearm has

          15       been discharged and that is when they would come in and

          16       investigate, at the time.

          17   Q.  Was a weapon discharged here?

          18   A.  No.

          19   Q.  Was there certainty that a weapon had been involved

          20       even?

          21   A.  No.

          22   Q.  At that time, the Trident remit formally was that all

          23       murders with a lethal barrelled weapon where both victim

          24       and suspect came from black community would be

          25       investigated, as well as any non-fatal shootings or


                                            82
 

 

 


           1       discharges involving a lethal barrelled weapon where

           2       there was a threat to the police; is that broadly your

           3       understanding?

           4   A.  That sounds correct, yes.

           5   Q.  Of course, now we know there's a wider remit for

           6       investigating doubts.  Did it have that remit at the

           7       time?

           8   A.  No.

           9   Q.  Were you aware of where the computer aided dispatch

          10       record was circulated?  You've shown us a CRIS report

          11       but are you aware that when an incident is reported to

          12       the police a loggist makes a computer generated note of

          13       the information received --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- a CAD, a computer aided dispatch record?  Do you know

          16       whether those are circulated throughout other

          17       operational units in the Metropolitan Police?

          18   A.  Yes, there's basically a specialist unit control room

          19       that constantly scans all the reports coming to the

          20       police all the time and if there's an incident of

          21       a nature where a specialist unit would be the one to

          22       investigate, they would be directed to it and contacted.

          23   Q.  Because of what has been said against you, have you made

          24       yourself aware of whether or not that or those CAD

          25       reports, made by members of the public and by the


                                            83
 

 

 


           1       computer loggist that night were circulated, in fact

           2       elsewhere in the Metropolitan Police?

           3   A.  Yes, I believe on the main CAD report, it was being

           4       monitored by the specialist control room and once the

           5       initial facts were discovered, ie no discharge, their

           6       interest finished, effectively.

           7   Q.  Do you know what sort of specialist resources are

           8       considered, that is to say what operational units look

           9       at the CAD report which has been circulated through the

          10       Met to see what more resources might be required?  Do

          11       you know who looks at it?

          12   A.  I know it's passed through the various units, so you've

          13       got the homicide teams, Trident, Flying Squad, the

          14       kidnap unit, all sorts of -- obviously not all crimes

          15       apply to them.

          16   Q.  So that day, within minutes of the reports coming in to

          17       the Metropolitan Police, this computer aided dispatch

          18       record was circulated to various units who might have

          19       had an interest in it.  Was there evidence of

          20       a discharge, of a firearm being discharged.

          21   A.  No.

          22   Q.  So Trident wouldn't have been required to take it

          23       further; is that the position?

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  Was there evidence of a life-threatening injury such


                                            84
 

 

 


           1       that it might turn into a homicide or a murder?

           2   A.  No.

           3   Q.  So SCD homicide were not required to take it further; is

           4       that right?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  You've mentioned a flag, and you were taken to

           7       a reference in your interview where you refer to the

           8       fact that there was this system whereby the file can be

           9       flagged.  Could you tell us, please, a little more about

          10       that?  That weekend, was there a decision taken as to

          11       whether or not the file -- not the computer aided

          12       dispatch records that we have discussed, but that the

          13       file -- should be flagged in some way?

          14   A.  Yes, the decision was made not to put a firearms flag on

          15       there.

          16   Q.  Why was that decision taken?

          17   A.  Again, the uncertainty of what we were dealing with.

          18   Q.  From your experience as an investigator, do you know

          19       whether the putting of a flag on the file would have

          20       necessarily had a direct impact on the resources

          21       thereafter made available?

          22   A.  No.  It wouldn't have made any impact on me, for

          23       example.

          24   Q.  If you need more resources as an investigating officer,

          25       presumably you can ask?


                                            85
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, if the management direct that more resources should

           2       go into a specific investigation that can happen.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It was not your decision to put the

           4       flag on anyway, was it?

           5   A.  No, it's -- they are effectively managed by a different

           6       unit called the Crime Management Unit whose job would be

           7       to check relevant flags are on reports but any officer

           8       can put a flag on a report.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That goes into crime statistics?

          10   A.  Basically, sir, yes.

          11   MR KEITH:  Out of caution, and it seems a system being

          12       operated by Hackney, your decision not to put a flag on

          13       was verified by a more senior officer.  I think there

          14       was an on-call Superintendent who checked that that was

          15       right.

          16   A.  Yes, it wasn't my decision not to do it, he made that

          17       decision and that was the end of it, yes.

          18   Q.  That was a decision with which you were happy?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  So, even if a flag had been put on, contrary to the

          21       understanding of when they are normally put on, would it

          22       have made any difference to the investigative steps

          23       taken in the next two or three days or next week or two

          24       weeks?

          25   A.  No, it wouldn't have made any difference to me.


                                            86
 

 

 


           1   Q.  In terms of the investigation, were these early days?

           2   A.  Yes, very much so.

           3   Q.  You handed over responsibility for the investigation and

           4       then you had to carry out a review duty, a supervisory

           5       review duty, over the investigation by DC Faulkner?

           6   A.  That's correct.

           7   Q.  By the time Mr Duggan's death occurred, had you even

           8       completed the first review period of seven days?

           9   A.  No, it hadn't elapsed yet.

          10   Q.  So by the following Thursday, you would still not have

          11       been required, even for the first time, to look at the

          12       file, see what DC Faulkner was doing and supervise what

          13       investigative steps there after should have been?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  Mr Hutchinson-Foster, of course, wasn't identified for

          16       the reasons you have explained.

          17           Do you know anything about what his account was when

          18       he was arrested, as he was on 24 October, later that

          19       year; did he agree or not, do you know?

          20   A.  I had no involvement in that.

          21   Q.  You don't know whether in fact he lied to the police,

          22       whether he gave a full account or whether he lied and

          23       changed his account and pleaded guilty or anything of

          24       that sort?

          25   A.  To the best of my knowledge he made no comment and


                                            87
 

 

 


           1       eventually pleaded guilty to the offence.

           2   Q.  Just one point, if I may, finally, in relation to the

           3       silver car.

           4           Mr Foote in his note has referred to the fact that

           5       no checks were taken on the silver car and you have told

           6       us that your understanding was that the silver car may

           7       have been a police car, which is why no further steps

           8       were taken to investigate it.

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  Could you just examine your memory again and just tell

          11       us whether your understanding is correct.  Might it have

          12       been that the silver car was seen to speed off through

          13       some lights, to screech to a halt, then sped off a bit

          14       round a corner and then a police car came past straight

          15       after the silver car, so it appears to have been part of

          16       the chase but wasn't, in fact, the police car itself.

          17   A.  I cannot recall that --

          18   Q.  I'm reading that from one of the CADs?

          19   A.  I cannot recall that from the top of my head.

          20   Q.  Will you take it from me that is what the CAD report

          21       says?

          22   A.  If you say so.

          23   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.  I have no further

          24       questions.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Mr Keith.


                                            88
 

 

 


           1           Mr Stern?  Mr Glasson?  Mr Butt?

           2   MR BUTT:  No, thank you.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll save Ms Dobbin for 2 o'clock

           4       then.  Thank you very much then.  So we'll complete your

           5       evidence at 2 o'clock.

           6   A.  Thank you, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you just remain there for

           8       a moment we'll just let the jury go.

          14   (12.58 pm)

          15                     (The short adjournment)

          16   (2.00 pm)

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, we'll have the jury in then,

          18       please.

          19                  (In the presence of the jury)

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'll ask for Mr Bell to come,

          21       please.

          22           Can we have Mr Bell back then, please.

          23           Thank you very much.  You are still under the oath

          24       that you took earlier?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.

 

                                            89
 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Ms Dobbin, your counsel, is going to

           2       ask you some questions.

           3                      Questions by MS DOBBIN

           4   MS DOBBIN:  DS Belfield, I am quite a long away from you.

           5       If you cannot hear me, would you let me know.

           6   A.  I will.

           7   Q.  I want to start by asking you about the evening of

           8       29 July, if I may, and make sure I have understood this

           9       correctly.  You were working in your office that

          10       evening.  You overheard this incident being relayed on

          11       the radio and you took the initiative to assemble a team

          12       and go to the scene; is that right?

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   Q.  Your view was that, whether it was a stabbing or

          15       a shooting or whatever transpired, it was sufficiently

          16       serious to warrant your attention; is that correct?

          17   A.  That's correct?

          18   Q.  When you got to the scene, the Lagoon salon, is it right

          19       that there were already a large number of police

          20       officers already in attendance?

          21   A.  There were.

          22   Q.  Is it also right that investigations had already begun?

          23   A.  That's correct.

          24   Q.  Can we see what those investigations were by looking at

          25       the primary investigation details that have been


                                            90
 

 

 


           1       recorded on the CRIS report?

           2           So may I ask for those to be brought up, please.

           3       It's CHF0171.  Can you see that?

           4   A.  I can, yes.

           5   Q.  So can we tell from that initial record, which was made

           6       at 11.08 on 29 July, that the initial account which had

           7       been given was that a male armed with a firearm was

           8       inside the location with another male, that some CADs

           9       stated that they were fighting and that he was hitting

          10       another male with a gun --

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  -- is that right?  It was reported that the male suspect

          13       had made off with a firearm down Kingsland Road, and it

          14       says there onto Forest Road, yes --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- and that other calls had come in stating that a male

          17       had been stabbed?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  So that was all of the information that was available at

          20       the outset of the incident; is that correct?

          21   A.  That's correct.

          22   Q.  It then says:

          23           "Trojan units went straight to the scene along with

          24       GD11."

          25           Can you help, first of all, by telling us what


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           1       a Trojan unit is?

           2   A.  Trojan is a firearms unit.  They patrol 24 hours a day

           3       round the Met routinely and any firearms calls that come

           4       out they will attend ahead of uniformed officers if

           5       a firearm is believed to be at the scene or being used.

           6   Q.  What would those Trojan units have done when they

           7       arrived at this scene?

           8   A.  They would have arrived at this scene and ensured that

           9       there was no armed suspect there or any danger

          10       effectively, that the uniformed officers could then

          11       follow behind them and basically ensured their safety.

          12   Q.  Right.  Do we also see, from this initial report, that

          13       a description of the suspect was circulated and that the

          14       Trojan units and the task force carried out area

          15       searches as well --

          16   A.  That's correct.

          17   Q.  -- but that those area searches revealed no trace of the

          18       suspect?

          19   A.  That's correct.

          20   Q.  Does it also record clearly that all of the witnesses

          21       inside the shop were kept inside and their details were

          22       taken --

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  -- and that, again, it records here, that most of them,

          25       and some of the witnesses from outside, said that they


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           1       had seen a black male, around 30 years old, walk into

           2       the location and get involved in an argument with the

           3       "viw"?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Shall we refer to that person as the victim?

           6   A.  The victim, yes.

           7   Q.  There was no suggestion, certainly at the outset of the

           8       incident, that any witness who had been spoken to was

           9       able to name who the assailant was?

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  If we go to the next page, which is 0172, I think it's

          12       right that this is a part of the CRIS which you have

          13       filled in, is that correct, if we go to the very last

          14       entry and we see your name at the end?

          15   A.  That's the same officer but he's recording that

          16       I attended.

          17   Q.  Thank you.  So, again, as regards the primary

          18       investigations, there's reference at the outset to the

          19       fact that a firearm had been produced, that there was

          20       a struggle between the victim and the suspect, that the

          21       victim had been hit round the head with a firearm, that

          22       a fight had spilled out onto the pavement and that other

          23       males may have intervened to help the suspect escape; is

          24       that right?

          25   A.  That's correct.


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           1   Q.  It records that no detail could be provided about that.

           2   A.  That's correct.

           3   Q.  Does that mean that none of the witnesses could provide

           4       any more detail about that part of the incident?

           5   A.  That's right, yes.

           6   Q.  Again, does it record here that many of the witnesses

           7       said that, as soon as they had heard someone shout

           8       "Gun", they went to the back of the shop to take cover.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Does it record there that many of the witnesses were

          11       unwilling to help the police?

          12   A.  It does, yes.

          13   Q.  Again, so this was right from the very outset of the

          14       incident, people were unable to assist --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- with what had happened.  If we look down to the next

          17       paragraph, someone called "viw3" was identified as

          18       having his hair cut by the victim and he saw quite a bit

          19       of the incident.  Is that one of the witnesses whom you

          20       referred to earlier as being a significant witness who

          21       had been identified?

          22   A.  Yes he was, yes.

          23   Q.  It said there that he was handed over to GD5 upon their

          24       arrival for a statement.  Again, can you just help with

          25       who GD5 is?


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           1   A.  GD5 is the call sign for CID on the Hackney Borough.

           2       "GD" signifies Hackney and "5" is just the Met call sign

           3       for CID.

           4   Q.  Thank you.  Then does this initial report set out that

           5       a crime scene was set up and that an area inside the

           6       shop had been cordoned off, that it was noted that blood

           7       had been smeared on the wall and the floor, although

           8       this was a minimal amount and it wasn't quite clear

           9       whose blood that was?

          10   A.  Yes.  In fact, the whole inside of the shop was cordoned

          11       off as a scene.

          12   Q.  Again, there's a record here made of the fact that:

          13           "Whilst at the hospital the victim was very

          14       uncooperative with the police but after a while stated

          15       that he knew the suspect but refused to give any

          16       details."

          17   A.  That's correct.

          18   Q.  This records that he did reveal that this incident was

          19       over a girlfriend --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- and an incident that had happened about a year ago.

          22       Does it record here that he would not go into any detail

          23       about that --

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  -- and refused to offer any more cooperation at that


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           1       stage?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Again, does it record here that:

           4           "GD5L attended the scene and spoke to significant

           5       witnesses that were willing to speak to the police."

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  So again we can see from that, absolutely no suggestion

           8       of anyone who was capable of identifying who the

           9       assailant was at that stage?

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  If we go to the next page, which is 0174, you mentioned

          12       that house to house -- what used to be called house to

          13       house enquiries had taken place.  Do we see there

          14       a record of all the premises in the near vicinity which

          15       had been visited in order to ascertain whether anyone

          16       there saw anything of any significance?

          17   A.  That's correct.

          18   Q.  Again, if we look at that, do we see, in fact, that

          19       no one there was able to give any further assistance?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Again, if we go over to the next page, 0175, again, we

          22       see some details of other individuals who hadn't seen

          23       anything as well; is that right?

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  If we go on down a bit more to "primary investigation


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           1       details", do we see that an initial description of the

           2       suspect was given, that he was about 30 years of age,

           3       wearing a white t-shirt and light-coloured trousers?

           4   A.  That's correct.

           5   Q.  If we go further down again, do we also see that it's

           6       been recorded on the CRIS that the London Borough of

           7       Hackney cameras weren't facing in the right direction at

           8       the time of the incident --

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  -- and that the only other potential source of CCTV was

          11       somewhere called Scooter Den, but it was closed at the

          12       time --

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  -- was that right?  Thank you.

          15           So you've told us earlier that, in fact, when you

          16       went to the scene with your officers you made it your

          17       business to go and speak to the main witnesses who had

          18       been identified as being of potential assistance; is

          19       that right?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  What view did you take of those witnesses as regards

          22       their ability to identify who the assailant was?

          23   A.  They certainly didn't know who the assailant was, but

          24       there's always the opportunity, as they were

          25       eyewitnesses to the offence, that they would be able to


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           1       recognise him in the future.

           2   Q.  Is it right that their details were carefully recorded

           3       and, in fact, statements were taken from those witnesses

           4       who had been identified --

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  -- as being significant.  As regards the other

           7       witnesses, who weren't regarded as being significant, is

           8       it right that their details had, in fact, been recorded

           9       should you need to go back to them?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  As well as those investigations that we see detailed on

          12       the CRIS, is it also right that intelligence checks

          13       would have been carried out on the victim to the assault

          14       as well, lest that told you anything more about him that

          15       might assist you?

          16   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          17   Q.  Is it also right for example that local hospitals would

          18       have been asked to be on alert for anyone coming in for

          19       treatment who might potentially have been the assailant

          20       who might have had injuries himself; is that right?

          21   A.  That's correct, yes.

          22   Q.  Again, did that deliver anything or reveal any further

          23       information?

          24   A.  No, it didn't.

          25   Q.  Now, did you speak to the victim of the assault on that


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           1       evening?

           2   A.  Not on that evening, no.

           3   Q.  Were you in contact with the officers who were with him

           4       at the hospital?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  What was it that they were telling you about the

           7       victim's willingness to cooperate?

           8   A.  That he was refusing to make a statement, refused to

           9       name who the suspect was but did provide us with a name

          10       of someone who he put as the third point in this

          11       triangle, if you like, who would know who the suspect

          12       was?

          13   Q.  Was it your decision then to task DC Astle and DC Crump

          14       to go and speak to that woman that evening?

          15   A.  It was, yes.

          16   Q.  Again, it's an obvious question, but was that in the

          17       hope that that woman might be willing to say who the man

          18       was who she had a relationship with?

          19   A.  Yes, absolutely, yes.

          20   Q.  Did you deliberately ask two female officers to go and

          21       speak to her?

          22   A.  It wasn't deliberate, but they were available and it did

          23       so happen to coincide as well that one of the officers

          24       knew this lady already from previous dealings, so that

          25       was very helpful in terms of a rapport that already


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           1       existed with her.

           2   Q.  But notwithstanding that rapport, that woman, in fact,

           3       wasn't willing to assist the police, was she?

           4   A.  That's correct, yes.

           5   Q.  As it transpires, she provided misleading information as

           6       to the identity of the man that she had been in

           7       a relationship with --

           8   A.  Yes, she did.

           9   Q.  -- is that right.  So we see then, if we go on to the

          10       next page of the CRIS report, at 0177, that it's been

          11       recorded on the CRIS, by you, the account which has been

          12       given about this woman having had a relationship with

          13       the assailant --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- in the assault.  Again, it's been recorded that the

          16       victim wouldn't name the suspect.  Then you've gone on

          17       as well to make notes about the scene; is that right?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  If we go on over the page to 178, again, is it recorded

          20       there that no one spoken to at the scene knew who the

          21       suspect was?

          22   A.  That's correct.

          23   Q.  Again, is it right you have recorded on that page that

          24       you had tasked the night duty CID to go and speak to the

          25       woman who had been identified as being the third person?


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           1   A.  Yes, I did.

           2   Q.  Thank you.  Do we also see, if we go to the very bottom

           3       of that page:

           4           "CMU -- delay confirming classification until I have

           5       ascertained the level of injury."

           6           Is that your asking the Crime Management Unit to not

           7       classify this incident until you had a better

           8       understanding of what injuries the victim had sustained?

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  Is that because it's the CMU that would classify the

          11       offence?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  All of that information and all of that recording took

          14       place on 29 July; is that right?

          15   A.  That's correct.

          16   Q.  Is that because you had gone back to the station after

          17       you had been to the scene in order to create that

          18       record?

          19   A.  That's correct.  I had to wait for that report to be

          20       created by the earlier officer before I could then add

          21       my comments to it.

          22   Q.  Now, it was put to you by my learned friend Mr Thomas

          23       that in some way you ought to have notified Trident

          24       about this incident.  Could I ask, please, that document

          25       CD032254 is brought up, please?  Are you able to see


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           1       that?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  If we go to the top of that, we can see that this is --

           4       his name has been taken away -- but this was an email

           5       that was sent to the IPCC and if we look a little bit

           6       further down, he was asked at 2 to provide

           7       an explanation of how the CAD came to your attention.

           8       Does it set out there that the CAD incident in

           9       question -- so this is the incident at the Lagoon

          10       salon -- was routed electronically through the MPS

          11       system to his department from another department and

          12       that he acknowledged it.  Then he sets out his purpose

          13       at 3.

          14           So the author sets out that he looked at the CAD to

          15       make an initial assessment to determine if, in line with

          16       current SOPs, that there should be a coordinated

          17       response to the incident; can you see that?

          18   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          19   Q.  Then he explains that it didn't, in fact, require

          20       dissemination to any specialist department; is that

          21       right?

          22   A.  That's correct.

          23   Q.  Then, does he set out a little bit further down that,

          24       because it had been initially reported that this was

          25       a matter relating to a firearm, he was keen to establish


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           1       at the earliest possible opportunity if there was any

           2       evidence of a lethal barrelled weapon discharge and, if

           3       there was, then SCD8 Operation Trident command would

           4       have been informed?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  He says there because there was no such suggestion that

           7       a discharge was made or reported --

           8   A.  That's correct.

           9   Q.  -- and then that a second consideration was whether or

          10       not the alleged victim had become unconscious or whether

          11       or not his condition was being treated as

          12       life-threatening, because in those circumstances the

          13       homicide command would have been alerted to it?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  So does this in fact demonstrate that the CAD incident

          16       for this matter was actively considered by someone for

          17       referral onto Trident --

          18   A.  It does, yes.

          19   Q.  -- and the decision was made that it didn't meet the

          20       criteria for referral on; is that right?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Now, you are, I think it's correct, back on duty on the

          23       Saturday morning; is that right?

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  Can I just ask you: do you routinely attend a meeting on


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           1       the Saturday morning if you've been on duty on a Friday

           2       night?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Did you go to such after meeting on this Saturday

           5       morning?

           6   A.  I did, yes.

           7   Q.  Can you just explain to the jury, please, what happens

           8       at that meeting on a Saturday morning?

           9   A.  At the meeting it's call the daily management meeting

          10       and I have to run through all the crimes that have

          11       happened in the last 24 hours, form 7.00 am Friday

          12       morning all the way through to 7.00 am Saturday morning,

          13       all the crimes within my remit but I also have to cover

          14       another unit called the Community Safety Unit, who deal

          15       with domestic violence then I brief the member of senior

          16       management who is on duty that day as to what events

          17       have happened in the previous 24 hours.

          18   Q.  Does that meeting give you a chance to discuss with

          19       someone more senior the incidents that you've been

          20       investigating and how, for example, that incident has

          21       been classified?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Again, is it right that the Superintendent who was

          24       overseeing this meeting, and who was at that meeting as

          25       well, Superintendent Stone, considered that this was


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           1       a matter that shouldn't have a firearms flag attached to

           2       it?

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  Again, if we could look at document CD032400.  His name

           5       has also been redacted but if we can say that this was

           6       from the senior officer who had overall supervision of

           7       the crimes that had come in on the Friday night --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- do we see there a reference to this matter, the

          10       Lagoon salon matter, at VCU?

          11   A.  That's correct, yes.

          12   Q.  Does it say there:

          13           "Four crimes one GBH, pistol-whipping that will

          14       probably end up as an ABH, a sorry tale of two males

          15       fighting because one allegedly had an affair with the

          16       other's ex-partner, no fire firearm flag.  One PC on

          17       crime scene until CCTV can be collected/downloaded."

          18   A.  That's correct, yes.

          19   Q.  It's right, isn't it, that this matter was ultimately

          20       determined to be an ABH because the victim had in fact

          21       sustained relatively minor injuries?

          22   A.  That's correct.

          23   Q.  Now, on the Saturday, is it right that you went back to

          24       the scene with the Scenes of Crime Officer?

          25   A.  I did, yes.


                                           105
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Is that something that you would ordinarily do?

           2   A.  It's fairly unusual but it was mainly due to the lack of

           3       cooperation I was getting and I felt that the Scenes of

           4       Crime Officer would be much better placed to examine

           5       that scene having viewed the CCTV and it also gave me

           6       the opportunity to view it as well.

           7   Q.  If we look at CD1403, in fact do we see that quite

           8       a detailed examination report was taken at the time?

           9   A.  That's correct, yes.

          10   Q.  I think, in fact, that that report runs for a number of

          11       pages.  I think, in fact, we may just be able to see it

          12       on that page, that a number of exhibits were taken and

          13       recorded within the body of that report; is that right?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  In fact, can we also tell from the CRIS report that the

          16       forensic samples that had been taken did have continuity

          17       numbers and were, in, fact, properly stored in the

          18       freezer unit --

          19   A.  That's correct, yes.

          20   Q.  -- as well.  You went along -- did you stay for the

          21       duration of that forensic examination?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Was that then your opportunity to look at the CCTV?

          24   A.  It was, yes.

          25   Q.  Is it right then that the crime scene had been -- that


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           1       the salon had been maintained as a crime scene the whole

           2       way through the night and well into the next day in

           3       order that that forensic examination could take place?

           4   A.  That's correct, yes.

           5   Q.  I think you have already suggested that that was

           6       a really unpopular decision with the owner --

           7   A.  Yes, yes, absolutely.

           8   Q.  -- because Saturday was going to be the busiest day of

           9       the week?  Again, was that something that you regarded

          10       as necessary because you didn't have any other leads at

          11       the time?

          12   A.  Yes, absolutely, and I had to gain her support to do

          13       that.

          14   Q.  So you viewed the CCTV at the scene; is that correct?

          15   A.  That's correct.

          16   Q.  Were you also doing that with an eye to seeing whether

          17       or not that would assist in the forensic examination as

          18       well?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Was it of assistance as regards the forensic

          21       examination?

          22   A.  No, unfortunately having watched the CCTV, effectively

          23       a very large fight takes place within the premises.

          24       I think I described it as a bull in a china shop.  It

          25       was very difficult to see any particular area where the


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           1       suspect had touched that no one else touched.  That's

           2       what we were looking for, like a magical piece of

           3       evidence where he had put his hand on a mirror or

           4       something similar we could get fingerprints off.  But

           5       the nature of it was just very confused and

           6       unfortunately it wasn't -- or the SOCO wasn't able to

           7       find any particular thing that he could say that was

           8       a suspect's DNA, for example.

           9   Q.  This was the sort of scene -- it's a public place,

          10       a hairdressing salon, we know that there were a number

          11       of people there on the evening in question, so

          12       presumably it was possible, and indeed probable, you

          13       might uncover the DNA of hundreds of people; is that

          14       right?

          15   A.  Hair and skin everywhere, I would imagine.

          16   Q.  Now, can I just ask you, you have told us that you

          17       hadn't spoken to the victim on the Friday night; did you

          18       speak to him on the Saturday?

          19   A.  I did, yes.

          20   Q.  Again, can you just explain to the jury the nature of

          21       your conversation with him on the Saturday?

          22   A.  Yes.  It was to first of all see how he was, what

          23       injuries he had received and whether he had changed his

          24       mind as to whether he was willing to assist us and

          25       provide a statement or at least provide the name of the


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           1       person concerned.

           2   Q.  That may be an important point.  The victim in this case

           3       didn't have to give you his statement?

           4   A.  No.

           5   Q.  But it was open to him to informally give you the name

           6       of his assailant; is that right?

           7   A.  Absolutely, yes.

           8   Q.  Was that explained to him?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Was he willing to even go that distance?

          11   A.  No.

          12   Q.  Do we in fact see, if we look at CHF0181 -- and if we

          13       look at the very top, in fact it records that you had

          14       spoken to the victim that morning; is that right?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Again, there's the record of the fact that his injuries

          17       had, as it transpired fortunately, been quite minor --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- is that correct?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Now, were you on duty again on Sunday, 31 July?

          22   A.  I was, yes.

          23   Q.  Again, did you speak to the victim on the Sunday?

          24   A.  I did, yes.

          25   Q.  Can you explain to the jury the context within which you


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           1       spoke to the victim on the Sunday?

           2   A.  Yes, it was just prior to me setting basically the

           3       investigative strategy about how we were going to

           4       proceed from that point and just to give me one more

           5       opportunity before I did that to ascertain whether he

           6       had changed his mind and was willing to either provide

           7       the name or a statement that we needed.

           8   Q.  Again on the Sunday, was there any change in his

           9       attitude towards assisting you?

          10   A.  No, not at all, no.

          11   Q.  So again had the consistent message been conveyed to you

          12       over the course of the weekend by the victim that he

          13       just wasn't interested in assisting the police?

          14   A.  That's correct, yes.

          15   Q.  If we look at CHF0183 and if we go to the bottom of that

          16       page, have you in fact recorded there that the CCTV was

          17       downloaded from the scene --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- to allow the Scenes of Crime Officer a more precise

          20       examination?  Have you recorded there that, in fact, you

          21       couldn't play the CCTV:

          22           "... as neither Pluto nor the laptop recognises the

          23       file type.  This will be passed to the DEU to change to

          24       a viewable format."

          25   A.  That's correct, yes.


                                           110
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So this was when you got the CCTV back to the station,

           2       in fact it just wouldn't play on any of the equipment

           3       you had available to you.  So it was always going to be

           4       necessary for this CCTV to go off to the Digital

           5       Evidence Unit in order for it to be downloaded; is that

           6       right?

           7   A.  That's correct, yes.

           8   Q.  Again, have you recorded there that you spoke to the

           9       victim again and that he still hadn't changed his mind

          10       about assisting you?

          11   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          12   Q.  If we go over the page to CHF0184, is this where you

          13       have set out then your investigative strategy?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  Do you set this strategy out on the basis that

          16       a Detective Constable, someone more junior to you, will

          17       actually take over this investigation and fulfil that

          18       strategy?

          19   A.  That's correct, yes.

          20   Q.  I think you've noted there the fact that the victim had

          21       mentioned about his wallet and that you had looked for

          22       a record in respect of that.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  But hadn't been able to find anything.  Again, as

          25       regards witnesses, you recorded that the key witness


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           1       statements had been taken?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  You were suggesting at that stage that no more

           4       statements should be taken until the result of the CCTV

           5       quality and circulation was known?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Can I just ask you to explain what the rationale was

           8       then behind that part of the strategy?

           9   A.  Yes.  We discussed it earlier in the sense that, until

          10       a suspect had been identified, those other witness

          11       statements could wait pending a further prosecution.  We

          12       had the key ones we needed and it was my view that, if

          13       I wrote on the strategy for one officer to take 20-plus

          14       statements, that was just going to overwhelm him and

          15       it's never realistically going to happen.  So at that

          16       point I made the decision to let's keep what we've got,

          17       we've got the best ones we have, let's see what the CCTV

          18       comes back with and then we can proceed from there in

          19       the future.

          20   Q.  Then I think you have set out, as well as part of that

          21       strategy, that you thought that circulation, the CCTV

          22       would assist in identification and then you have set out

          23       as well about some of the forensics -- about the fact

          24       that swabs have been taken at the scene; is that right?

          25   A.  That's correct.


                                           112
 

 

 


           1   Q.  If we just look a bit further on down the page, we see

           2       someone there has put "Classification confirmed".

           3       Again, is that someone independent confirming the

           4       classification of this incident?

           5   A.  Yes, that's someone in the Crime Management Unit doing

           6       that.

           7   Q.  Is that classification as an ABH confirmed?

           8   A.  That's correct, yes.

           9   Q.  So there is, in fact, an independent scrutiny of the

          10       classification of the offence; it's not your decision?

          11   A.  It's not my decision, no.

          12   Q.  Thank you.  Now, is it also right that in Hackney

          13       Borough on a Monday morning there's a guns and gangs

          14       meeting as well?

          15   A.  It's in the afternoon, yes.

          16   Q.  Sorry, in the afternoon.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What's it called?

          18   A.  Guns and gang crime meeting, sir.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

          20   MS DOBBIN:  Perhaps if we could look at document CD032330.

          21       Now, is this a document that you've prepared or that

          22       someone else would have prepared.

          23   A.  Someone else prepared.

          24   Q.  If we just look at this, it comes under the heading

          25       "Other gun enabled crime" and then there's


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           1       an explanation about this incident as well, yes --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- is that right?  Then it names who the former partner

           4       is.  Now, as regards this matter being discussed at the

           5       guns and gangs meeting, is that so that this information

           6       that we see on the screen can be shared with other

           7       specialist units who might have an interest in it?

           8   A.  That's correct.

           9   Q.  In so far as you're aware, is there a Trident

          10       representative at that meeting?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Is it also right that the briefing which is prepared for

          13       this meeting is also circulated to Trident as well?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  Once you have set the investigative strategy for this

          16       incident, your role essentially reverts into

          17       a supervisory one; is that right?

          18   A.  That's correct.

          19   Q.  Does this CRIS then become one of a number of other

          20       incidents that you're also supervising at the same time?

          21   A.  It does, yes.

          22   Q.  Could you give us, please, an idea of how many other

          23       CRIS reports you would have been supervising at this

          24       time?

          25   A.  49.


                                           114
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Now, you had envisaged as part of your strategy that

           2       this, the CCTV that had been gathered here, would be

           3       sent off to the Digital Evidence Unit and then

           4       circulated after that?

           5   A.  That's correct.

           6   Q.  Is that right; was the Digital Evidence Unit opened at

           7       the weekend?

           8   A.  No.

           9   Q.  So this could only have been done on the Monday?

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  Is it right that even to circulate someone's image

          12       locally, that that is something that would usually take

          13       in the region of two to three days?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  To get something circulated on a Met-wide basis would

          16       take much longer than that indeed?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  I think you have explained, in both regards, that,

          19       essentially, this sort of incident would have to compete

          20       against far more serious incidents --

          21   A.  That's correct.

          22   Q.  -- like murders and GBHs; is that right?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  But even then, if an image is circulated, whether or not

          25       anyone can identify the suspect is a matter of chance;


                                           115
 

 

 


           1       is that right?

           2   A.  That's correct.

           3   Q.  First of all, you have to have officers who are willing

           4       to go to the site where these images are posted up, look

           5       through them and then see if they can identify anyone --

           6   A.  That's correct.

           7   Q.  -- is that right?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  Now, you were asked about a silver car that was

          10       mentioned in the CAD.  Was there, in fact, any

          11       suggestion from any of the witnesses at the scene or

          12       around the area that this suspect had left in a car?

          13   A.  None whatsoever.

          14   Q.  Was there, in fact, a suggestion that he had gone on

          15       foot?

          16   A.  That's correct.

          17   Q.  Is it your understanding, having looked at the CADs,

          18       that this refers to a different incident from the one

          19       that you were investigating?

          20   A.  Yes, I believe so.

          21   Q.  I just want to ask you then about something a bit

          22       different, as regards what happened about the

          23       investigation into this incident later on.

          24           A note was put to you which has been prepared by

          25       DCI Foote in which he set out some of the outstanding


                                           116
 

 

 


           1       investigative steps to be taken in this investigation --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- is that right?  We'll look at that in a second.  But

           4       in terms of background, is it your understanding that

           5       that note had been prepared because some time in

           6       August 2012 it had come to light that the victim's DNA,

           7       and that of Mr Hutchinson-Foster, were found on the gun

           8       which had been retrieved from the scene at Mr Duggan's

           9       shooting?

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  You weren't aware, were you, at that time -- that's

          12       August 2012 -- that there was any link whatsoever

          13       between the incident you'd been investigating on the

          14       29th and the shooting of Mr Duggan, were you?

          15   A.  No, I was very much in the dark.

          16   Q.  In fact you didn't know anything about that during

          17       August, September or October 2011; is that right?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  I think what happened was that Mr Hutchinson-Foster was

          20       arrested by Trident officers in October 2011, and that

          21       that caused Trident officers to come to Hackney to look

          22       at the evidence that you had gathered in respect of the

          23       Lagoon incident; is that right?

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  But again, even when that review was taking place, you


                                           117
 

 

 


           1       didn't know of any link whatsoever between the shooting

           2       of Mr Duggan and the 29 July incident?

           3   A.  Yes, not at all, no.

           4   Q.  I see that because one has to treat with some caution

           5       DCI Foote's notes about the investigation; is that

           6       right?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Because he's looking at it in the highly sensitive

           9       context of this incident on 29 July being ultimately

          10       linked to Mr Duggan's shooting; is that right?

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  So he wasn't, as it were, coming to review it as though

          13       it were an ordinary ABH --

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  -- is that fair?

          16           Perhaps if I could have on screen CD032223.  If we

          17       go over the page to 32224, please.  What he has done

          18       here is to set out the outstanding issues identified; is

          19       that right?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  These are the matters that have already been put to you,

          22       I don't want to dwell on this for too long, but as

          23       regards the first one, when it says:

          24           "There is no record of who has spoken to the victim,

          25       and what if any account he gave ..."


                                           118
 

 

 


           1           Have we just seen in fact that you made two records

           2       of having spoken to the victim on the Saturday and the

           3       Sunday --

           4   A.  I did, yes.

           5   Q.  -- and that you were very clearly aware of his lack of

           6       willingness to assisting the investigation?

           7   A.  That's correct.

           8   Q.  Again, the fact that there were no record of the

           9       enquiries conducted with his partner, we have seen that

          10       there was, in fact, a contemporaneous record made by the

          11       two female DCs who went to speak to her and that that

          12       was brought to your attention.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  As regards the swabs, in fact it's quite clear from the

          15       CRIS, is it not, that the swabs were properly identified

          16       and properly stored, and indeed they were capable of

          17       being traced once Trident wanted to submit those for

          18       analysis --

          19   A.  That's correct.

          20   Q.  -- is that right?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  As regards the further CCTV enquiries, in fact we've

          23       seen from the CRIS that the only other potential

          24       significant source of CCTV identified was from the

          25       scooter store; is that right?


                                           119
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.

           2   Q.  But, in fact, you had decided that the internal CCTV was

           3       likely to be the most reliable and the best CCTV

           4       available --

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  -- is that right?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  As regards his criticism about the large number of

           9       witnesses from whom statements had not been taken, you

          10       have already explained that, in fact the significant

          11       witnesses had been identified to you, is that right, and

          12       statements taken from them?

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   Q.  Again, as regards the last matter of note on that page,

          15       again you had, in fact, identified the significant

          16       witnesses from the scene itself?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Again, we come back to the point that none of those

          19       witnesses were in any event able to identify who the

          20       assailant was; is that right?

          21   A.  That's correct.

          22   Q.  As regards bus CCTV, you have said that in an ideal

          23       world that would be very nice but not realistic as

          24       regards an investigation of this nature --

          25   A.  That's correct.


                                           120
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- and not realistic having regard to the fact that

           2       there was already good CCTV as regards the incident.

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  You dealt with the silver car and you have also

           5       explained that you were in touch with the victim about

           6       his wallet as well --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  -- and that you made checks to see if his wallet could

           9       in fact be identified amongst the exhibits --

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  -- and it wasn't there?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  I think it's right to say that you have never spoken to

          14       DCI Foote about your investigation, have you, so you

          15       were never able to discuss any of these matters with him

          16       before he made that record or made that note?

          17   A.  No.

          18   Q.  It was put to you by my learned friend Mr Thomas that

          19       somehow, before 4 August, you could in fact have

          20       identified Kevin Hutchinson-Foster, I think, in his

          21       words, "had you not been so pedestrian", and I just want

          22       to examine that if I may.

          23           You had no witnesses at the scene who were able to

          24       identify Mr Hutchinson-Foster as the assailant?

          25   A.  That's correct.


                                           121
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You had two witnesses, the victim and his former

           2       partner, who could have identified him but who were

           3       absolutely unwilling to do so --

           4   A.  That's correct.

           5   Q.  -- to the extent that the former partner provided you

           6       with misleading information about his identity?

           7   A.  That's correct.

           8   Q.  In fact, intelligence checks were done on the basis of

           9       that misleading information but, unsurprisingly,

          10       produced no results; is that right?

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  As regards the CCTV, you've recorded that it couldn't in

          13       fact be viewed on your own computer systems --

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  -- that it would have had to have gone to the DEU, but

          16       it wasn't open at the weekend, and that it would have

          17       taken a number of days, at least two to three, to

          18       circulate it locally, and then even longer to have it

          19       circulated Met-wide, correct?

          20   A.  That's correct.

          21   Q.  Even then, had it been circulated, whether or not anyone

          22       could have identified Mr Hutchinson-Foster is open to

          23       chance, is it not?

          24   A.  That's correct.

          25   Q.  So, in fact, the prospect of anybody identifying


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           1       Mr Hutchinson-Foster as being related to this incident

           2       must be very remote indeed prior to 4 August; is that

           3       right?

           4   A.  That's correct.

           5   Q.  You were also asked questions about the view that you

           6       had taken when you watched the CCTV on the Saturday,

           7       about whether or not a gun was being used.  I just

           8       wanted to ask you about that as well.  I think what you

           9       were saying was that you were keeping an open mind about

          10       whether or not it was a gun or not --

          11   A.  That's correct.

          12   Q.  -- is that right?  Would it have made any difference

          13       whether or not, on the Saturday, you had been certain it

          14       was a gun?

          15   A.  None whatsoever.

          16   Q.  Would it have overcome any of the difficulties that you

          17       would have faced in getting the CCTV circulated?

          18   A.  No.

          19   MS DOBBIN:  If you just wait one second.  (Pause)

          20           Thank you, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          22           Yes, back to you, Mr Underwood, I think.

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising out of that, thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I have nothing either.  So thank you

          25       very much then for coming forward and giving your


                                           123
 

 

 


           1       evidence.  That completes your evidence.  You are free

           2       now to go.

           3   A.  Thank you, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           5                      (The witness withdrew)

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  DC Faulkner, please.

           7                   DC STEPHEN FAULKNER (sworn)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Come and have

           9       a seat then, please, would you?

          10                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Mr Faulkner.

          12   A.  Good afternoon.

          13   Q.  Can you give us your full names please?

          14   A.  DC Steve Faulkner, Hackney Police.

          15   Q.  I think you were a Detective Constable on 29 July 2011;

          16       is that right?

          17   A.  That's correct, yes.

          18   Q.  We've been hearing that you were the one who took over

          19       the investigation as the investigating officer on 31st;

          20       is that correct?

          21   A.  That's right, yes.

          22   Q.  What I want to do is take you through very briefly your

          23       actions from then on in.  We helpfully get it at

          24       CD31024, which is a written response you made to

          25       a complaint made by the internal police service, is that


                                           124
 

 

 


           1       right, department of Professional Standards.

           2   A.  That's correct, yes.

           3   Q.  If we pick it up halfway down the page you say:

           4           "On 31 July at about 8.30 pm I was allocated

           5       a crime ..."

           6           That's the one we're talking about.  So that's

           7       Sunday night, is it, at about 8.30 pm?

           8   A.  That's right, yes.

           9   Q.  You then go on to say in the final paragraph of that

          10       page:

          11           "I did not see this allocation until 1 August 2011

          12       at 1350 hours.  The reason for this was because I think

          13       I had left work at 4.00 pm on the 31 July ..."

          14           So the first time it came to your notice actually

          15       was roughly 1.50 in the afternoon of Monday the 1st; is

          16       that right?

          17   A.  That's right, yes.

          18   Q.  You say there at the bottom of the page:

          19           "At that time I obviously read the investigative

          20       strategy and the status of the investigation ..."

          21           You read yourself in, did you?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  If we go over the page to 31025, it then had been

          24       confirmed as an assault occasioning actual bodily harm,

          25       had it?


                                           125
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's right, yes.

           2   Q.  Then you say:

           3           "It's clear I either viewed or updated the CRIS on

           4       the 1st or 2nd."

           5           So that's the Monday or the Tuesday.  You say it's

           6       clear that you either view or updated it because there's

           7       a record of that, is there?

           8   A.  There is, yes.

           9   Q.  Then you say, the next paragraph:

          10           "I have to concede that I have not made an entry on

          11       the CRIS in relation to all these viewings.  As is often

          12       the case, the CRIS will not be updated by reference to

          13       every single action or development that takes place in

          14       relation to any specific investigation."

          15   A.  That's right.

          16   Q.  "Although there was a tendency in the past to sometimes

          17       write 'noted and seen' or something of that kind just to

          18       denote that a CRIS had been viewed either by

          19       an investigating officer or a supervisor, the pressures

          20       of time under which we often work, and particularly

          21       during this period, preclude even that cursory

          22       acknowledgement on the CRIS of an update, or record of

          23       such development."

          24           Are you talking there about what happens when you

          25       actually go and look at the thing itself to see what's


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           1       going on and, ideally, you're supposed to make a record

           2       on the record that you've seen the record; is that it?

           3   A.  Yes.  I mean that is the tendency, or has been, that you

           4       write "noted" or "seen", "seen as above", ongoing".

           5       That is a -- some of the terms that can be written on

           6       the CRIS report, but that isn't a meaningful update.

           7   Q.  Then if we go down to the bottom of that page you say:

           8           "I had attended the original scene of the

           9       incident ... on 29 July."

          10           That is right, is it, you were there with Detective

          11       Sergeant Belfield on the 29th?

          12   A.  Yes, that's right, yes.

          13   Q.  You say:

          14           "My recollection was that the victim was anti-police

          15       and obstructive.  A large number of the people present

          16       or working nearby refused to provide their details or

          17       make any sort of a statement."

          18           Give us an impression, would you, of just the

          19       general feeling of willingness to help about this?

          20   A.  When we arrived, there was a number of witnesses inside

          21       the salon itself.  There was also shops and a takeaway

          22       next door and people working there, passers-by that were

          23       stopped and when the cordons were being put into place,

          24       one example is the takeaway restaurant, KK's, next door,

          25       were spoken to but refused to give an account or provide


                                           127
 

 

 


           1       a statement.

           2   Q.  You say cordons put in place; was the shop itself

           3       cordoned off or were the cordon's wider?"

           4   A.  It was, yes.  Sad to say, that is a common occurrence

           5       that people won't get to involved with the police and

           6       won't want to give their details and those that do, we

           7       have to do our best to make sure that the details they

           8       give are correct and we've got proper contact details

           9       for them as well.

          10   Q.  Right.  Were you aware that the night duty officers had

          11       seen the apparent girlfriend and that she'd refused to

          12       give an identity?

          13   A.  Ms C?

          14   Q.  Yes.

          15   A.  Yes.  Yes, as far as I was aware, yes.  I spoke to the

          16       night duty to ask them to go and see her and speak to

          17       her.

          18   Q.  Then if we go over the page to 31026, about halfway

          19       down, you say:

          20           "I completed my tour of duty at 4.00 pm on the

          21       1 August and therefore effectively only had two hours

          22       that day to review the matter, retrieve the CCTV and

          23       become familiar with the circumstances of the original

          24       event.  On Tuesday, 2 August I can recall that we were

          25       very heavily involved in dealing with other crimes which


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           1       had occurred on the Borough during the course of the

           2       previous weekend.  As an ABH this was a comparatively

           3       low level offence compared to some of those."

           4           You say:

           5           "To try and assist I have endeavoured to put

           6       together some sort of outline of my work commitments

           7       during the relevant period."

           8           Then we look to see that at the bottom of the page

           9       there were two common assaults --

          10   A.  I think that number 2 there is actually a GBH.

          11   Q.  Then over the page, 207, another common assault;

          12       a sexual assault from 4 July to be followed up, number 5

          13       is this one, I think; number 6, ABH in mental health

          14       ward, statement to be taken, medical history, et cetera;

          15       number 7 is another GBH on 30 July --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Then an MG11, that's a witness statement, is it --

          18   A.  Yes, that's correct, yes.

          19   Q.  -- number 8, to be taken from a security guard,

          20       a witness to an assault.

          21           Then if we look at 31 July, there were four crime

          22       scenes for the "E/T CID", what's that?

          23   A.  Early turn.  You're either early turn or late turn at

          24       the weekends.  So you either start at 8.00 am and finish

          25       at 4.00 pm or you start at 2.00 pm and finish at


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           1       10.00 pm.

           2   Q.  You say:

           3           "All GBHs, ongoing scenes throughout the day were

           4       Dolphin PH and Wallis Road both required SOCO and CCTV

           5       actions."

           6           So this is more serious assaults, is it, on 31 July?

           7   A.  Yes, assaults with crime scenes attached to them, yes.

           8   Q.  Then you say on 2 August that you updated three CRIS

           9       reports and filed paperwork.  All of those are to do

          10       with interviewing prisoners, is that right?

          11   A.  Yes, they've been interviewed, dealt with and the

          12       paperwork involved and the crime reports that are

          13       involved and tidying them up.

          14   Q.  By interviewing a prisoner, this is an interview to try

          15       to put to a suspect what it is that's alleged against

          16       them, is it?

          17   A.  Yes, yes, that's it, somebody has been arrested and then

          18       interviewed under caution.

          19   Q.  Then:

          20           "I also have the following to prioritise from

          21       1 August."

          22           You deal with a CRIS report, violent disorder, five

          23       youths charged --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  -- and you deal with what had to be done there with CCTV


                                           130
 

 

 


           1       and so on.

           2   A.  That's correct.

           3   Q.  Over the page at 31028 at the top, another CRIS, another

           4       prosecution, where three youths who had stabbed a fellow

           5       schoolboy and you had to do a number of things there,

           6       take statements from officers, outstanding witnesses,

           7       schoolteachers, CCTV, et cetera.

           8   A.  Yes, these are post-charge, yes, these are.

           9   Q.  Going down, halfway down, another CRIS, an "outstanding

          10       CPS memos", "assault", and what's that about?

          11   A.  The CPS memos for -- where the name is blanked out.

          12   Q.  Yes.

          13   A.  DC Crump, she's a DC --

          14   Q.  We know her name?

          15   A.  Yes.  That there is list of actions that have been --

          16       she's been tasked to deal with and, because she's gone

          17       away on holiday, annual leave, asked me to look after it

          18       and deal with these actions.

          19   Q.  Then towards the bottom of the page, a CRIS regarding

          20       an outstanding trial where the witnesses were having

          21       seconds thoughts.  What's that about?

          22   A.  This is a trial, this is actions that -- before it gets

          23       ready for the trial, before the magistrate's appearance,

          24       this is where two witnesses that were assaulted in a --

          25       they were two barmen who was assaulted in the pub by


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           1       a regular that's come in causing trouble, they have

           2       decided they don't want to get involved anymore, don't

           3       want to go to court because they want to carry on

           4       working at the pub and don't want any trouble.  That's

           5       the gist of that one there.

           6   Q.  So what did you have to do?

           7   A.  I had to speak to them and make sure they didn't want to

           8       go ahead with prosecution and also get statements from

           9       them as to why they didn't want to.

          10   Q.  Okay.  Then the bottom one is another case, trial memos,

          11       and a case initially scheduled for 5 August and a number

          12       of bullet points, starting on that page then going over

          13       the page, the entire page of actions to be taken on

          14       that; is that right?

          15   A.  Yes.  This is -- this is one of my -- at the top of one

          16       of my lists of things to do is -- this is a Judge's

          17       orders and requests for a trial that's getting ready for

          18       a GBH kidnap and assault -- or kidnap and blackmail.

          19       That was going to Crown Court.

          20   Q.  Just give us an idea of the time you were spending on

          21       these other things during these few days in the early

          22       part of August?

          23   A.  What I had to do was prioritise and to -- with all these

          24       lists of actions, deal with them in what's -- the most

          25       pressing ones need to be dealt with first and organise


                                           132
 

 

 


           1       my time to get these requests done and processed,

           2       especially those that are going to court.  But also all

           3       the other crimes that need to be updated and keep on top

           4       of the list of crimes which are separate to post charge

           5       requests.

           6   Q.  Right.  At the bottom of the page you say:

           7           "I was acting for FLO as the family of [redacted]

           8       assaulted and left with brain damage."

           9           Is "FLO" family liaison officer?

          10   A.  I was not the OIC for that I was the liaison officer so

          11       I was keeping in contact with the family to update them

          12       what's going on with the trial.  To give you the gist of

          13       what that was about, a person was assaulted in the high

          14       street with a piece of wood randomly, was smacked round

          15       the back of the head and suffered sort of brain damage.

          16       He was not going to be able to go to court but his

          17       family were keen for the investigation to go forward and

          18       for the prosecution because someone was arrested, and

          19       they need to be kept up-to-date because they had to

          20       travel quite long distances across London because he was

          21       in hospital for some months.

          22   Q.  Then over the page at 30, you say:

          23           "On 3 August I commenced a tour of duty at 7.00 am

          24       on Operation Chalet which was an operation on borough

          25       related to gangs and particularly the supply of drugs


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           1       leading to numerous arrests.  This took all day and

           2       I got home at 6.00 am on 4 August having completed

           3       a continual tour of duty of effectively 23 hours."

           4           That is correct, is it?

           5   A.  Yes.  It was a confidential operation, I wasn't told

           6       anything about it until the Wednesday, only to -- I was

           7       only told to keep my diary free and I was then helping

           8       with processing the prisoners, interviewing them and --

           9       because it was an operation where a large number of

          10       arrests were taking place at the same time.

          11   Q.  Then you say:

          12           "On Thursday, 4 August I remained at home recovering

          13       from the events of the previous day."

          14           That is correct, is it?

          15   A.  That's it, yes.

          16   Q.  Assume for the moment that somebody had magically told

          17       you to clear your diary between 31 July and 4 August to

          18       sort out the Lagoon salon incident --

          19   A.  Right.

          20   Q.  -- and you had had nothing else to worry about instead

          21       of all this.  Thinking back, could you have progressed

          22       it?

          23   A.  No, I don't think so.  I think the main crime scene for

          24       the weekend were -- and the evidence that that

          25       secured -- that includes the exhibits and CCTV was done


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           1       and the two people that could have assisted with

           2       identifying Hutchinson-Foster -- and that's Ms C and

           3       Peter, the victim -- they were spoken to numerous times

           4       and Ms C was visited.  Those are the people -- those two

           5       people are the key people that could have progressed

           6       this.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well.  That's all I ask.  Thank you.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

           9           Yes, Mr Thomas, Mr Straw?

          10   MR MANSFIELD:  No, thank you.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Mr Stern?

          12   MR STERN:  No, thank you.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

          14   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?  Mr Butt?

          16   MR BUTT:  No, thank you.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Ms Dobbin?

          18                      Questions by MS DOBBIN

          19   MS DOBBIN:  DC Faulkner, I just wanted to ask you this.  Did

          20       you speak to the victim in this matter between 29 July

          21       and 4 August?

          22   A.  I did, yes.  I spoke to him on the phone on the Tuesday

          23       morning.

          24   Q.  Did you actively telephone him or did he phone you?

          25   A.  No, I got a message from my Sergeant, an email, and he


                                           135
 

 

 


           1       spoke to me about it to say "Contact Peter, he wants his

           2       wallet back".  I took that opportunity to speak to him

           3       about his wallet and also to encourage him to give me

           4       a statement.

           5           He didn't want to give me the statement, he didn't

           6       want to be involved in any prosecution.  I told him that

           7       we didn't necessarily need a statement from him, we

           8       didn't need him to take part in any ID parade or go to

           9       court, "If you just give me the name then I'll progress

          10       it based on the CCTV and what it showed".

          11   Q.  Was he willing to go that distance with you?

          12   A.  No.  No, I asked him whether it was because he was

          13       frightened or whether he just -- him staying in the area

          14       was going to be a problem and he said no.  He still

          15       wouldn't cooperate with the police.

          16   Q.  Having had that phone call with him, were you in any

          17       doubt as regards his willingness to assist the police

          18       with this incident?

          19   A.  No, he was quite adamant he didn't want to assist at

          20       all.

          21   MS DOBBIN:  Thank you.  If you just wait there one second.

          22       (Pause)

          23           Thank you, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Ms Dobbin.  Any

          25       re-examination arising out of that?


                                           136
 

 

 


           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you very much.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I have no questions for Mr Faulkner,

           3       thank you very much for coming along to assist, you are

           4       free now to go.

           5   A.  Thank you.

           6                      (The witness withdrew)

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would that be an opportunity to take

           8       a short break and see what the position is?

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Members of the jury, we'll have

          11       a mid-afternoon break and see what we've got lined up

          12       for you.

          13           We'll have the cameras off, please.

          16   (3.07 pm)

          17                         (A short break)

          18   (3.20 pm)

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right for the jury then, please?

          20       Jury in then, please.

          21                  (In the presence of the jury)

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you very much, cameras

          23       are now back on.  Mr Underwood, who do we have now?

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Paula Mugglestone, please.

          25

 

                                           137
 

 


           1               INSPECTOR PAULA MUGGLESTONE (sworn)

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  If you would

           3       like to come and have a seat, please.

           4   A.  Thank you.

           5                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon.  May I ask your name and rank

           7       please?

           8   A.  Yes.  I'm Inspector Paula Mugglestone.  I'm a Police

           9       Search Advisor and I'm currently attached to SO20

          10       Counter Terrorism Protective Security Command search

          11       team.

          12   Q.  Thank you.  I think you were on duty on 5 August 2011 on

          13       the Ferry Lane search; is that right?

          14   A.  That's correct, yes.

          15   Q.  You spoke there, I think, when you arrived, to DI Peter

          16       Suggett --

          17   A.  Yes, I did, that's correct.

          18   Q.  -- and you remained at the scene, I think, from about

          19       10.05 to about 2035 hours?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.

          21   Q.  You recorded what happened there in a search advice

          22       file; is that correct?

          23   A.  That's correct.

          24   Q.  Can we have a look at that, please.  It'll come up on

          25       screen.  It's our CE0221.


                                           138
 

 

 


           1           We've heard some things about how what are commonly

           2       called PolSA searches may differ from some other parts

           3       of forensic strategy but PolSA is simply the shortening

           4       of Police Search Advisor, is it?

           5   A.  Yes, PolSA stands for Police Search Advisor, so

           6       P-o-l-S-A, PolSA.

           7   Q.  Is there anything magical about a PolSA search?

           8   A.  All officers, all PolSAs, and the licensed search

           9       officers, so therefore the PCs or the Sergeants, we all

          10       undertake national training by the Police National

          11       Search Centre.  We have -- it's a pass or fail course

          12       that we have to go through -- there is a number of

          13       guidelines and criteria that we must complete annually

          14       and then we're also licensed by the Home Office and

          15       that's an accreditation -- it's a pass or fail course

          16       and we are trained, say, in national guidelines,

          17       national qualification, and that's -- the magical bit

          18       really is the fact there's nothing magical it's just

          19       that we have extra training that the majority of regular

          20       police officers don't have.

          21   Q.  As the actual PolSA, what's your function in a search?

          22   A.  My role as Police Search Advisor is to advise the Chief

          23       Officer of Police, so therefore the Senior Investigating

          24       Officer, whoever is in charge at the scene, and to

          25       provide them advice on -- well, counter terrorism


                                           139
 

 

 


           1       searches, but all search related matters and then manage

           2       and control the search resources that I deploy to

           3       a request, if I believe it's suitable.

           4   Q.  We know that in the Ferry Lane case there was, if you

           5       like, the searching of the scene and, as it turned out,

           6       the searching of the minicab to find items and

           7       separately there were forensic science examinations.

           8       Where do the two fit?

           9   A.  Any forensic examination is done prior -- is usually

          10       done prior to police search officers, licensed search

          11       officers searching because you've got the forensics --

          12       if we go in to search there's a possibility we can

          13       destroy any forensics.  Therefore we must make sure that

          14       any forensic retrieval is done prior to us carrying out

          15       search.

          16   Q.  Is it your training and experience then that it's no

          17       part of your function to advise people about the

          18       sequence at which these things are done?

          19   A.  I can advise the Chief Officer  of police as to the

          20       search strategy, but the forensic strategy is generally

          21       the Chief Officer  who polices.

          22   Q.  Let's have a look, in the knowledge of that, at your

          23       search advice file, if we may.  If we pick it up at

          24       CE221, we see towards the bottom "This is an original

          25       file for the attention of" then there's the OIC,


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           1       DI Suggett from DPS.  Is that just because he's the

           2       person to whom this file was eventually addressed?

           3   A.  Yes, he was the Requesting Officer, the initial

           4       Requesting Officer, so therefore I addressed it for his

           5       information.

           6   Q.  Then if we go over the page, 222, at the top we see the

           7       search request details are in fact contact 1, DI Suggett

           8       and then contact 2, DS Steve Hadfield; who was he?

           9   A.  He was present at the scene with DI Suggett when

          10       I arrived.  He was another point of contact for the

          11       Directorate of Professional Standards.

          12   Q.  As far as you were concerned were they the people to

          13       whom you were giving advice?

          14   A.  Well, I was also aware that obviously I had the

          15       Independent Police Complaints Commission there as well,

          16       so in some ways it was quite tricky because I almost had

          17       two masters, if that makes any sense.  Normally, I would

          18       just have one, so you speak to one person, one Senior

          19       Investigating Officer, you provide your advice, you get

          20       the information, provide the advice and you work out

          21       your strategy and go from there.  On this occasion

          22       obviously I had two people and it was a matter of making

          23       sure that -- or two parties -- making sure both parties

          24       were happy with the decisions and actions being taken.

          25   Q.  Okay.  Then if we look at the information, about a third


                                           141
 

 

 


           1       of the way down the page:

           2           "Incident occurred on 4 August 2011 where a male was

           3       fatally shot by police.  DPS are investigating shooting

           4       and incident referred to IPCC.

           5           "Two shell casings have been recovered from the

           6       scene, scene needs to be systematically searched for

           7       evidence relating to the incident."

           8           So that was your brief, was it?

           9   A.  That's correct.  That's the information that I was given

          10       on receipt of the request that had been phoned through.

          11   Q.  If we look halfway down, the search is for:

          12           "Ballistic material, ammunition and shell casings."

          13           Was that the limit?

          14   A.  That's what I was asked to search for, yes.  Those are

          15       the items sought.

          16   Q.  We have already had the advantage of hearing from some

          17       of your officers and they found other things like phones

          18       and brought those phones to the attention of other

          19       officers there.  What would be the expectation where

          20       you've got a set of parameters like that; would it be

          21       that your officers would pick up anything else that

          22       struck them as interesting?

          23   A.  You would look at it in the fact the majority of

          24       officers who are licensed search officers are

          25       experienced searchers, they have been tasked with what


                                           142
 

 

 


           1       they've been sought for, those are the items that I'm

           2       looking for them to find, those are the items the Senior

           3       Investigating Officer is looking for them to find.  From

           4       their experiences they're searching, if they find

           5       something that they think is of interest or might be of

           6       interest to the investigation then, you know, they can

           7       bring it -- they should bring it to the attention of the

           8       team leader and ultimately the Exhibits Officer, because

           9       it's their investigation not us.  We can bring it to

          10       their attention and whether a decision is made -- what

          11       the decision is made to do with whatever they find, it's

          12       down to them not us.

          13   Q.  When you say they bring it to the attention of the team

          14       leader, would that be you, in this case?

          15   A.  No, that would be the Sergeant, I'm, sorry -- search

          16       advisor, that would be the team leader would be the

          17       Sergeant in control of the team.

          18   Q.  What was your function there once the team had started

          19       their work?

          20   A.  Well, facilitating the search really.  Yes, it's my job,

          21       my search, my name is above the door, so to speak, and

          22       it's the fact that I'm there to make the decisions.  The

          23       team leader, the Sergeant, is not there to make the

          24       decisions, I get paid more than him, and so therefore

          25       it's down to me to make the decisions that are required


                                           143
 

 

 


           1       to be made, and with the information that had come here,

           2       the fact that it was being investigated, it had been

           3       referred to the IPCC, the DPS were investigating, then

           4       it was -- I thought it was appropriate that I should

           5       attend and make those decisions rather than over the

           6       phone or down to the Sergeant.

           7   Q.  All right.  Then if we look towards the bottom of the

           8       page then, it's a box marked "Decision/advice given".

           9   A.  Mm-hmm.

          10   Q.  There's A to M on the left-hand side about some criteria

          11       but then if we look at what you have written in:

          12           "Incident requires high quality of search to provide

          13       maximum confidence to the victim's family and friends,

          14       community and public as a whole as to the level of

          15       investigation that is being carried out.

          16           "Extensive national media interest.

          17           "Untrained officers not suitable for this task.

          18           "AFO deployment integral part in incident.

          19           "Incident referred to IPCC."

          20           That's your sort of set of guidelines, is it, for

          21       the search?

          22   A.  Yes, that's the reasons why I decided to deploy units

          23       which would normally be deployed -- whose primary role

          24       is counter terrorism searches.  That's why I've decided

          25       that, yes, I'm going to actually deploy these resources


                                           144
 

 

 


           1       to this search.  As I stated earlier they are trained,

           2       they are licensed by the Home Office they have had extra

           3       training with regard to searching and therefore I felt

           4       it was necessary to make sure these officers and this

           5       crime scene received the best training, the best

           6       investigation that they could.

           7   Q.  How did you decide what it was precisely that was to be

           8       searched?

           9   A.  Well, I attended the scene, I spoke with DI Suggett, we

          10       looked at the areas, I was given the information as to

          11       roughly, very basically, what had happened, the vehicles

          12       were still in the -- in position, in situ, so it was

          13       agreed where we would search and he had already set out

          14       what he wanted us to search for.  So that's -- yes, how

          15       we did it.

          16   Q.  Did you have to make decisions or give advice on such

          17       things as to whether the police cars should be returned

          18       back to police premises?

          19   A.  That decision had been made, that that was going to be

          20       done, they weren't required to be forensically examined.

          21       I was told at the scene, and I was advised that they

          22       were happy -- I think the decision had been made between

          23       DI Suggett and the IPCC, the fact that the vehicle --

          24       they were happy for the vehicles to be driven on the

          25       roads, other than, I think, there was one vehicle, the


                                           145
 

 

 


           1       minicab, that wanted to be -- have a full lift.  That

           2       decision had already been made.  I did insist that we

           3       search the external -- carried out a visual search,

           4       an external search of the vehicles, prior to them being

           5       moved though.

           6   Q.  What was the purpose of that?

           7   A.  To make sure that there weren't any -- there wasn't any

           8       evidence actually on the outside of the vehicles.  You

           9       know, shots had been fired, to make sure there had not

          10       been any nicks and there wasn't any evidence remaining

          11       there that may -- because, from what I understood, there

          12       was not going to be a forensic examination of them

          13       externally, so I wanted to make sure then that no

          14       evidence was going to be lost on the journey.

          15   Q.  Can we go over to CE223 then and have a look at the way

          16       the advice log runs.  The first entry is the 7.10 one on

          17       5 August and you say:

          18           "Spoke to Requesting Officer..."

          19           That's DI Suggett, isn't it?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.

          21   Q.  "...confirmed limited information provided on request.

          22       He is on scene and will remain on scene.  Advised that

          23       0800 team (NE team) are currently tasked to another

          24       folio but my intention to contact the OIC to see if

          25       there is flexibility ..."


                                           146
 

 

 


           1           That's just making sure you get the right numbers of

           2       people there, is it?

           3   A.  That's correct.  We have four teams who are on duty and

           4       can be on duty at any time, which consist of one

           5       Sergeant and eight PCs.  They, on this occasion -- the

           6       early team were tasked to another request from another

           7       unit and I wanted to make sure, if possible -- I had no

           8       immediate resources able to attend and I wanted to be

           9       make sure, by contacting the person who had requested

          10       them, to get them there as soon as possible.  I wanted

          11       to make sure that obviously DI Suggett had a realistic

          12       expectation of when I could attend.

          13   Q.  Okay, and if we go halfway down there's the 10.05 entry

          14       where you say:

          15           "I attend the scene, make contact with IO on scene

          16       DI Pete Suggett, also present DS Steve Hadfield and DC

          17       John Payne -- (who will be our Exhibits Officer).

          18       Photography of scene is still ongoing ..."

          19           Then the team have gone to the local borough, is

          20       that right, to obtain maps of the area?

          21   A.  The "NE" is the north-east team and they have gone to

          22       the local station to try and obtain maps.

          23   Q.  Then we deal with the removal of police vehicles.  You

          24       say:

          25           "Advised by DI Suggett and with consent of IPCC


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           1       representatives David and Nicola that all police

           2       vehicles will be removed by police drivers to Lambeth."

           3           Then if we go down to -- still in that box to the

           4       final four lines of it:

           5           "Minicab Toyota MPV will be recovered full lift and

           6       taken to Perivale where a full search of the interior

           7       will take place at a later date.  In consultation with

           8       PS Hannigan and DI Suggett, IPCC representatives

           9       agreement of search parameters, exterior of vehicles,

          10       fingertip of roadway and grass area to south."

          11           Is the understanding there then that you have worked

          12       out what it is you are going to look at and that does

          13       not include the interior of the minicab because that's

          14       going to be lifted and forensically examined somewhere

          15       else, Perivale?

          16   A.  That's correct, yes.

          17   Q.  Two boxes further down:

          18           "Vehicle B has a nick to the rubber on the top of

          19       the F/N/S tyre consistent possibly with a shell casing

          20       or something similar hitting it.  Advised by DC Payne

          21       that a shell casing was found beneath the vehicle in the

          22       area of the F/N/S wing and so could be consistent with

          23       it hitting the tyre it is not 100 per cent sure."

          24           Is it clear that the vehicle whose tyre was nicked

          25       was also the vehicle beneath which a shell casing was


                                           148
 

 

 


           1       found?

           2   A.  That is -- I was advised by DC Payne, as I have written

           3       there, that it was believed -- he's not 100 per cent

           4       sure -- but there was a shell casing recovered in that

           5       area, so, rather safe than sorry, have the vehicle

           6       recovered.

           7   Q.  Then if we look at the final entry on that page:

           8           "Garage desk advice contractors unable to take

           9       vehicle B ..."

          10           The one we have just been talking about:

          11           "... to Lambeth to be forensicated, contractors only

          12       take to Perivale.  Decision that vehicle will go to

          13       Perivale and full lift not front lift required."

          14           Was that the -- that vehicle, whichever police

          15       vehicle it was, and a decision being made that it's

          16       going to Perivale?

          17   A.  That's correct, yes.

          18   Q.  By a full --

          19   A.  A full lift, yes, apologies for the typo.

          20   Q.  If we go over the page to CE224, third entry:

          21           "Due to delay in removing vehicles (Toyota still

          22       awaiting recovery from scene) fingertip search of the

          23       roadway has still not started, therefore additional

          24       [team] contacted to attend scene to assist in search."

          25           Why did you not want an additional team at that


                                           149
 

 

 


           1       stage?

           2   A.  Due to the time of the day, even though it was in the

           3       summer, I was conscious of the fact that I still had

           4       areas that needed to be searched and I didn't want to

           5       lose the light, plus the fact I didn't want to keep the

           6       cordons in overnight and so therefore cause even more

           7       problems.  It's not only disadvantage to the community

           8       but also the resources that are required for the police

           9       as well to do that.  So I had resources available so

          10       I decided to deploy them to the scene to assist.

          11   Q.  Right.  Then you get to the next entry at 15.40:

          12           "Advised by IPCC that a decision has been made by

          13       DSI Colin Sparrow that the Toyota can be searched at the

          14       scene rather than be removed so as to minimise

          15       inconvenience to the owner who depends on the vehicle

          16       for his livelihood.  Unfortunately vehicle has literally

          17       just left the scene on the back of recovery vehicle and

          18       is on its way to Perivale.  Local PS requested to try to

          19       obtain a phone number for the driver to get it returned

          20       to the scene.

          21           "Advised by DS Hadfield that the interior of the

          22       Toyota ... is to be researched for ballistic material,

          23       firearms and ammunition.  No requirement for Tyvek suits

          24       to be worn by searching officers."

          25           Have we got to the point where, if you like, as far


                                           150
 

 

 


           1       as you were concerned, forensic searching of that

           2       vehicle had been abandoned?

           3   A.  Prior to -- once the Toyota had been recovered and left

           4       the scene, it wasn't going to be searched -- it was

           5       going to be searched somewhere else but, yes, it's now

           6       said, well, I was advised that the IPCC required the

           7       vehicle to come back in and so therefore be searched,

           8       not forensicated, but it was still required to be

           9       searched by the officers.

          10   Q.  You said in the course of that answer that you thought

          11       it was going to Perivale -- on its low loader to be

          12       searched somewhere else.  Is there a distinction, or was

          13       there a distinction in your mind, between the search you

          14       were expecting to happen in Perivale and the search you

          15       were expecting afterwards to happen here?

          16   A.  I must admit I hadn't really thought about it.  The

          17       vehicle was going to be searched -- it was going to go

          18       off somewhere, to Perivale, going to go to a different

          19       location it wasn't going to be searched at my scene, and

          20       a request would come through to our office at a later

          21       date to be done.  Whether and how that vehicle was going

          22       to be searched at Perivale was down to the Senior

          23       Investigating Officer's decision.

          24   Q.  Would it be fair then to infer from those answers that

          25       you didn't anticipate that there had been any change in


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           1       the strategy about what was to happen to the minicab

           2       just about where it was going to happen?

           3   A.  That's correct.

           4   Q.  So do we take it from there that it didn't occur to you

           5       that anybody was telling you that they wanted advice

           6       about this?

           7   A.  No, as we know -- that's why I made the entry.  As

           8       I say, I spoke to -- I contacted DS Hadfield to

           9       confirm -- obviously, as the vehicle was coming back

          10       into the scene -- well, it was coming back to be

          11       examined -- as to what the forensic strategy would be,

          12       what might he require of my team to wear.

          13   Q.  Did you advise anybody that if those suits weren't

          14       required then, therefore, the nature of the search was

          15       likely to compromise any forensic science work after

          16       that?

          17   A.  I didn't.

          18   Q.  When the search did take place at the scene after the

          19       vehicle was recovered, were you told that seats had been

          20       moved around, that a box had been moved from the

          21       interior to the boot, a rug had been moved from the

          22       interior to the boot?

          23   A.  No, I hadn't.

          24   Q.  Had that been brought to your attention, would you have

          25       told the investigating officers?


                                           152
 

 

 


           1   A.  I wasn't made aware of what the state of the interior of

           2       the vehicle was prior to us searching it, so whether

           3       something had been moved before my officers started

           4       searching it, I wouldn't be any the wiser.

           5   Q.  Take it for the moment that your officers moved

           6       things --

           7   A.  All right, sorry.

           8   Q.  -- would you have expected them to tell you that?

           9   A.  No, not necessarily.  I've tasked them to search

          10       a vehicle, the interior of a vehicle, and when you're

          11       searching the interior of a vehicle, then it's the same

          12       as searching a house, you need to be able to move

          13       things.  Part of the training is how -- you know, they

          14       are taught, when searching a vehicle, how to

          15       systematically search a vehicle and if the vehicle -- if

          16       the seats can be moved, the carpets can be lifted, the

          17       panels can come off, without causing damage, then

          18       I would expect that to be done.

          19   Q.  I loosely asked whether there's any magic in the

          20       searching earlier on and you kindly told us what it is

          21       that searchers are trained about.  How much do you

          22       expect investigating officers to know about what a PolSA

          23       type search will involve?

          24   A.  I believe, as part of their investigating course -- part

          25       of their course -- they are actually given


                                           153
 

 

 


           1       a presentation on Police Search Advisors searching and

           2       what we can do.

           3   Q.  You would have expected, would you, investigating

           4       officers here, whether they were Metropolitan Police or

           5       IPCC, to know that a search of the vehicle at the scene

           6       would be likely to involve moving things around,

           7       including seats and carpets?

           8   A.  That's correct.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well.  Thank you very much.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Let's see.

          11       Mr Mansfield, any questions?

          12   MR MANSFIELD:  No, thank you.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Straw?  No.

          14           Mr Stern?  No.

          15           Mr Keith?

          16                      Questions by MR KEITH

          17   MR KEITH:  Inspector just one or two areas, if I may,

          18       please.  If we can have CE222 back on the screen.  This

          19       is the second page of our search advice file.  If we

          20       look at the top left-hand corner of the page, we can see

          21       that a distinction appears to be drawn between the two

          22       Metropolitan Police officers who are contacts 1 and 2

          23       and the OIC, the Officer In the Case or the SIO, Senior

          24       Investigating Officer, Mr Sparrow from the IPCC.

          25   A.  That's correct.


                                           154
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Does that reflect your understanding as to their

           2       respective roles?

           3   A.  Yes.  As far as I was aware, the IPCC were actually in

           4       charge of the investigation -- in charge of the

           5       investigation.  Hence I've put him as the OIC/SIO.

           6   Q.  If we look at 223, the following page, please,

           7       Inspector, Mr Underwood has already taken you to the

           8       entry for 05/08/2011, two thirds of the way down the

           9       page:

          10           "Advised by DI Suggett and with the consent of

          11       IPCC ..."

          12           Over the page, 224, do we see a number of references

          13       to the IPCC and their decision making, at the top of the

          14       page, the top entry:

          15           "Confirmed with David ..."

          16           Is that David Kirkpatrick from the IPCC?

          17   A.  Unfortunately I don't know his last name, apologies.

          18   Q.  All right.  Four entries further down 15.40:

          19           "Advised by the IPCC ..."

          20           17.00, The IPCC took a decision in relation to

          21       whether the grass area should be searched; do you recall

          22       that?

          23   A.  That's correct, yes.

          24   Q.  At 17.20 they gave directions in relation to electronic

          25       devices found in the Toyota, in fact an iPhone.


                                           155
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Then, as we have just been reminded ourselves, further

           3       down the page, 05/08/2011, between 17.55 and 19.35, the

           4       IPCC decided the Toyota should be forensically recovered

           5       and taken to Perivale after all?

           6   A.  That's correct.

           7   Q.  Can I ask you about that, please.  It seems, if we go

           8       back to the previous page, CE223, the first page of the

           9       advice log, that what was understood to be the case,

          10       certainly in the morning when you were there, was that

          11       there wouldn't be a PolSA search of the Toyota, the

          12       Toyota would go to Perivale to be forensically examined;

          13       is that correct?

          14   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          15   Q.  If we look at the search task logs which Mr Hannigan,

          16       your Sergeant, filled in, they start at our page CE31.

          17       I don't think that you will have them there, Inspector,

          18       but if you look at the screen they will be brought up.

          19       CE31, if they could be rotated, thank you very much.  We

          20       can see that the searches that took place by the first

          21       PolSA search time, Viking 101, was concerned with the

          22       outside searches of the police vehicles, we can see

          23       tasks 1 to 4, they are all concerned with the outside.

          24           Over the page, CE32, task 5 concerns Ferry Lane by

          25       the south footway, and in fact, we have heard, the


                                           156
 

 

 


           1       outside of the Toyota.  So the roadway underneath it and

           2       around it.

           3           The reason that there was no PolSA search in the

           4       morning, of the Toyota, inside the Toyota, was because

           5       everyone anticipated it was going to go to Perivale for

           6       a full forensic examination?

           7   A.  That's correct, that's what I had been advised.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Had you been told as to whether

           9       there were any forensic examinations at all at the

          10       scene?

          11   A.  I had been told that all forensics had been completed

          12       and the last bit was the 360-degree camera capture.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Forensics such as blood,

          14       fingerprints, DNA?

          15   A.  My usual question I would ask is: have all forensics

          16       completed?  Because I don't want to go in and start

          17       searching with my lot with their size 11s and start

          18       obliterating any forensic evidence.  So one of the

          19       questions I ask before I deploy teams to the Senior

          20       Investigating Officer is: has all forensic work been

          21       completed?

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So what answer do you get?

          23   A.  I would have been told it had been other than the 360

          24       camera work that was still ongoing.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you were told everything had been


                                           157
 

 

 


           1       done.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So what was the point of taking it

           4       to Perivale then?

           5   A.  For the external areas anyway.

           6   MR KEITH:  Inspector, the Toyota had not been examined, as

           7       far as you were aware from the task logs that you were

           8       privy to, by any PolSA search time in the course of the

           9       morning?

          10   A.  Sorry, the internal --

          11   Q.  The internal part of the Toyota.  There had been no

          12       PolSA search in the morning?

          13   A.  No.  I had only tasked my team to search the external

          14       area of the vehicles, as I said, because they were going

          15       to be recovered.

          16   Q.  Yes.  For a forensic examination?

          17   A.  Yes.  The Toyota was going to be recovered, yes, for the

          18       forensics, and the police vehicles were going to be

          19       driven by their own -- by the police drivers.

          20   Q.  So the answer to the Coroner's question -- and I do not

          21       wish to lead you -- is: had the Toyota been forensically

          22       examined in the morning or not --

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  -- as far as you knew?

          25   A.  No, not as far as I was aware, otherwise it would not


                                           158
 

 

 


           1       have been necessary to have it recovered, apologies.

           2   Q.  So what changed then in the afternoon, as we can see at

           3       15.40 on CE234, is that the IPCC decided that, in order

           4       to reduce the inconvenience to the owner, the Toyota

           5       should be subject to a search at the scene.  We can see

           6       that it was to be for ballistic material, firearms and

           7       ammunition, that is to say a PolSA search and, as

           8       Mr Underwood put to you, the issue of forensic

           9       examination therefore faded away.

          10   A.  It would appear so.  I mean that's why I contacted

          11       DS Hadfield to confirm what my team were required to

          12       wear.

          13   Q.  We've heard evidence from an exhibit officer who was

          14       present, Mr Payne, and some of the search officers,

          15       including Sergeant Hannigan.  Do you recall there being

          16       any reaction to the decision by the IPCC that the car in

          17       fact not be taken to Perivale for a full forensic but be

          18       returned to the scene for a PolSA search?

          19   A.  It was thought to be unusual.

          20   Q.  Right.  Then when it came back, the PolSA search took

          21       place because that is what you had been effectively

          22       ordered to do, and then, and this is the fifth entry

          23       from the bottom -- the fourth entry from the bottom of

          24       the page CE0224, there was a reversal in the position,

          25       the car was then ordered to go to Perivale after all,


                                           159
 

 

 


           1       but by this time you had searched it?

           2   A.  That's correct.

           3   Q.  Right.  Who took both decisions, the decision not to

           4       send it to Perivale for forensic examination and then,

           5       after, when you had done a PolSA search, to send it to

           6       Perivale after all?

           7   A.  Both decisions were made by the IPCC.

           8   Q.  They were in charge of the investigation?

           9   A.  That's correct.

          10   Q.  Can you help us with one other subject, please.  Your

          11       understanding was that the majority of the -- or all --

          12       subject to the Toyota -- the majority of the forensic

          13       tasks had been carried out.  Do you recall any

          14       substantive investigative searches being required or

          15       being carried out at the scene on the 5 August, other

          16       than the PolSA searching that's detailed in your and

          17       Sergeant Hannigan's task logs?  Do you recall anything

          18       else going on, any other investigative steps being taken

          19       during the course of the day, or was it just the cars

          20       and the PolSA search outstanding?

          21   A.  I was focused, obviously, from my role, on my PolSA

          22       search.  There may have been some IPCC representatives

          23       going door to door and trying to find witnesses because

          24       it was quite a busy area with the student block and then

          25       the residents at the local close, but that would be the


                                           160
 

 

 


           1       only other investigation that would have been going on

           2       at the time.

           3   Q.  If I may say so, you seem eminently capable of running

           4       your team and of carrying out the tasks that you were

           5       ordered to do.  Would you have expected there to be

           6       a Crime Scene Manager with you whilst your team, headed

           7       by Sergeant Hannigan, carried out the PolSA searches of

           8       the car?

           9   A.  It's not unusual for me not to have one.  As long as

          10       I have an Exhibits Officer who is capable and competent

          11       and they have received directions from the Crime Scene

          12       Manager, then it's not unusual for me not to have one.

          13       But equally I'm quite happy to have one as well.

          14   Q.  Did you have a suitable and capable Exhibits Officer

          15       recording things that were found?

          16   A.  I believe so, yes.

          17   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.  I have no further

          18       questions.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          20           Yes, Ms Dobbin?  No.  Have I asked you already?

          21           Anyone else: Mr Glasson, Mr Butt?

          22           Mr Stern, I've already asked.

          23           Back to you then, Mr Underwood.

          24                Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can I just follow up on one area of that.


                                           161
 

 

 


           1       Can I clarify what it was that was thought to be

           2       unusual.  Was it the bringing back of the minicab, it

           3       already having gone out, or was it the search before the

           4       forensic work was done?

           5   A.  It was a combination of both really.  I suppose it was

           6       more the fact the vehicle had already left and then to

           7       bring it back in.  But it was all fairly unusual anyway,

           8       what was happening with the minicab.

           9   Q.  Did you share that with the IPCC?

          10   A.  No, I didn't.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I have no other questions for

          13       Inspector Mugglestone.

          14           Thank you very much for assisting us, that completes

          15       your evidence.

          16   A.  Thank you.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're free to go.

          18                      (The witness withdrew)

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you, Inspector.

          20           So those are the witnesses for today but I have

          21       a statement to read from Dr Barber who would otherwise

          22       have attended, perhaps I can do that.

          23   MICHAEL DAVID ALBERT BARBER (statement read by MR UNDERWOOD)

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  It's a statement from Michael David Albert

          25       Barber of 28 November 2011, CS533.  He's a fingerprint


                                           162
 

 

 


           1       expert and if I can pick it up from the second page he

           2       was asked to look at the Bruni and also V53's MP5 and,

           3       as far as we're interested in, it's what he looked at on

           4       the Bruni that's important and he says at the bottom of

           5       534:

           6           "The purpose of my examination was to:

           7           "Detect and enhance any finger, thumb or palm

           8       friction ridge detail that may be present on the above

           9       exhibits;

          10           "Determine whether or not any ridge detail present

          11       was composed of blood and how such detail had been

          12       formed."

          13           He talks about how fingerprints work and in

          14       particular fingerprints in blood.

          15           If I go to page 4 of his statement, CS536, he says:

          16           "Exhibit JMA/1 was a black handgun that appeared to

          17       have been coated with a black paint or lacquer.  This

          18       coating was flaking off the gun in places and did not

          19       appear to me to have been applied to the gun by the

          20       manufacturer but at a later date.  I removed two samples

          21       of this coating from the side of the trigger ..."

          22           They were sent for analysis."

          23           He says of the gun:

          24           "The exhibit was examined using a sequence of

          25       optical, physical and chemical treatments.  I observed


                                           163
 

 

 


           1       an area of ridge detail that appeared to me to be

           2       associated with blood."

           3           He labelled it and photographed it.

           4           If we go over to his page 5, CS537 halfway down the

           5       page he says:

           6           "As a result of these observations it is my opinion

           7       that:

           8           "The ridge detail labelled as Area '1' was not

           9       composed of blood and that the blood present in the

          10       vicinity of this ridge detail was coincidentally

          11       associated with it.

          12           "The ridge detail labelled as areas '2' to '4' were

          13       impressed into the surface of the black paint that had

          14       been applied to the gun.

          15           "During the course of my examination an area of

          16       ridge detail was observed that was insufficient for

          17       comparison.  It was located on the inside surface of the

          18       magazine compartment on its right-hand side.  This area

          19       was swabbed for possible DNA profiling purposes as

          20       sample SLR/2 which has been retained ..."

          21           That's it.  In essence he drew a blank on very

          22       careful fingerprint analysis on the handgun.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the thrust of that evidence,

          24       isn't it, that there were no fingerprints that will

          25       allow or assist the jury in their task in this Inquest?


                                           164
 

 

 


           1   MR UNDERWOOD:  Exactly.  I think the reason that I was asked

           2       to read that was to show how careful that analysis had

           3       been.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  So that is the evidence for today.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right, thank you very much then.

           7           Well, members of the jury, let's break at this point

           8       and we'll meet again at 10.30 again tomorrow morning.

           9       Thank you very much indeed.

                                           165


          24   (4.01 pm)

          25        (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Tuesday,

 

                                           167
 


           1                        19 November 2013)

           2
               PROFESSOR JONATHAN CHARLES CLASPER ...................1
           3             (continued)

           4       Questions by MR THOMAS ...........................1

           5       Questions by MR STERN ............................9

           6       Further questions by MR THOMAS ..................31

           7       Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ...............33

           8   MS SEMONE WILSON (statement read by .................38
                         MR UNDERWOOD)
           9
               DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREW BELFIELD ..................39
          10             (sworn)

          11       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .......................39

          12       Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................73

          13       Questions by MR KEITH ...........................78

          14       Questions by MS DOBBIN ..........................90

          15   DC STEPHEN FAULKNER (sworn) ........................124

          16       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................124

          17       Questions by MS DOBBIN .........................135

          18   INSPECTOR PAULA MUGGLESTONE (sworn) ................138

          19       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................138

          20       Questions by MR KEITH ..........................154

          21       Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ..............161

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                           168