Transcript of the Hearing 19 September 2013


           1                                    Thursday, 19 September 2013

           2   (10.00 am)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (10.16 am)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are we ready then for the jury to

           6       come in?  We will ask the jury to come in.

           7                  (In the presence of the jury)

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

           9       jury.  I am sorry you were kept waiting a little while.

          10       I think what we do now is just complete the opening

          11       remarks that Mr Underwood was making to you and I will

          12       encourage him at the conclusion of -- the remainder part

          13       that he has to say is just really to outline what it is

          14       we are about to do today.  Then after that I shall give

          15       you some warnings and ask the jury before to be sworn.

          16           Firstly then, to Mr Ashley Underwood.

          17        Opening of the Inquest by MR UNDERWOOD (continued)

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, as you

          19       know we are going to go to Vicarage Road first of all

          20       and spend as long as you like there to look around and

          21       see what the sight lines are around the Burchell Road

          22       area then we are going to take the route the minicab

          23       took to Ferry Lane where again you'll have time to look

          24       around get a feel for the area.  Principally that's

          25       because there's no substitute for looking at things




           1       rather than seeing photographs and plans and so on.

           2           Another thing we are going to do is put a minicab

           3       there.  Now, the original minicab was, for perfectly

           4       understandable reasons, given back to its owner and in

           5       due course, I am afraid, it was scrapped and although

           6       when one of our experts asked if he could get hold of it

           7       to do some tests on it we asked the Metropolitan Police

           8       to track it down, they tracked down the last owner,

           9       found he had had it scrapped.  Then they went to the

          10       scrap yard to see if they could recover it from there.

          11       It was turned into a very small cube apparently and sent

          12       on a container ship to China to be recycled.  So even

          13       our experts couldn't do anything with that.

          14           So what we have done is got another one, apart from

          15       a slightly different shade of silver but we think it's

          16       the same and that will be there at the scene and you

          17       will be able to look through it, in it, outside out,

          18       et cetera.

          19           Now, you know I am not going to tell you about the

          20       witnesses that are going to come much later until we get

          21       near that group of witnesses and then I will describe

          22       who you are going to see and what sort of evidence you

          23       are likely to hear, but there are a couple of things it

          24       might be useful for you to know now.

          25           The first is that one of the witnesses is called




           1       Ms J who lived nearby, and she will tell you she was

           2       between Jarrow Road and the railings near where this

           3       incident happened and she says that she went to have

           4       a look and she was close enough, she will tell you, to

           5       see the colour of the gloves that somebody was wearing

           6       when they were doing CPR.  She will also tell you she

           7       saw a police officer on the pavement side of the

           8       railings carrying a gun and a black cloth.

           9           You will also hear, of course, that two officers

          10       will deal with evidence about finding that gun on the

          11       grass and you will see some video evidence which has

          12       already been shown by the BBC, but you will see an even

          13       clearer version from us which covers that sort of time

          14       and space.

          15           I will need to explore with Ms J whether her

          16       evidence suggests the police took the gun from the

          17       minicab and planted it in the grass.

          18           Now, all of that evidence will give you the

          19       opportunity to consider that possibility.  At this

          20       stage, I am simply letting you know that that's going to

          21       arise later on, so that when you look at the grass, when

          22       you look at Jarrow Road and you look at the distances

          23       between them, you can see the sight lines, see whether

          24       she could have seen it, what sort of thing is available

          25       there.




           1           Secondly, of course, you are going to be hearing

           2       from all the firearms officers who were at the scene in

           3       due course and a number of those will tell you what it

           4       is that they saw of Mr Duggan in the minicab and getting

           5       out of the minicab and just after he got out of the

           6       minicab.  From some of their viewpoints they would have

           7       to have been looking from the offside of the minicab.

           8       You will see it's a people carrier with one rear

           9       passenger door, a sliding one on the nearside, and what

          10       some officers will tell you is that Mr Duggan was

          11       sitting in the rearmost seats, he slid open the door and

          12       then came out.

          13           So you will be given the opportunity today to see

          14       what sort of view there is of the inside of the minicab

          15       from the offside with the sliding door open and shut and

          16       you can yourself, if you want to, get in and out of the

          17       minicab see how easy it is to open the door, get out,

          18       that sort of thing.  So that's the purpose of today.

          19           I am not proposing to say anymore about that now,

          20       thank you.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Let me then take on the

          22       bit that I want to say to you.

          23           As you realise, it's very important during the

          24       course of today for you to act as a jury together, the

          25       11 of you, and I shall be with you as well, both on the




           1       coach and at the various sites.  Sometimes, when a view

           2       takes place, it takes place at the end of the evidence

           3       and sometimes jurors say "What was the evidence about X,

           4       Y and Z?"  At the moment we have not heard any evidence

           5       at all, so if you were to ask a question like "Where was

           6       the plant pot?" we have not got that evidence yet

           7       because all we have is the opening with the plans.

           8           So you might be tempted at some stage to ask

           9       questions.  I can't answer them and I can't get anyone

          10       forward to answer them.  That's not the way the view

          11       works.

          12           Having said that, there may be things you want to

          13       ask and what I am going to do is have those questions,

          14       if there are, recorded.  I do not want to feel as though

          15       I am being unhelpful.  So if you are saying

          16       "I particularly want to look at the sight line or height

          17       of this" or whatever it may be, I will note it down and

          18       we will record it and then during the course of the

          19       Inquest evidence next week and onwards, we will be aware

          20       of those matters and we'll see what we can do to call

          21       evidence to answer those questions.

          22           As I have already said to you, if you think right we

          23       would like to go back, now we've heard the evidence in

          24       a few weeks' times, back to Ferry Lane and have another

          25       look at it or whatever it may be, then of course we will




           1       be able to arrange that for you.

           2           All right.  So that's one thing that I want to say,

           3       whilst you will be invited to walk around the areas just

           4       to take in the general feel of the area that we're

           5       concerned with and follow the route through from one

           6       area to the next.  We can't actually go along and have

           7       a great inquisitorial process, whereby we all then stand

           8       around saying "What questions do you want to ask?" and

           9       "These are the answers" because the answers will come

          10       out in evidence here hopefully over the next few weeks.

          11           So that's what I want to say.  Obviously the same

          12       rules apply.  Please don't speak with other people who

          13       may be there.  You will have the court staff here, there

          14       will be me and we'll be together.  The lawyers will be

          15       present, as is quite proper, to see what goes on, and

          16       for their own education too.

          17           There will be other people no doubt on the periphery

          18       around of interest, local people.  There may be members

          19       of the press too, and they too will obviously keep apart

          20       from you and please don't speak with them.  I am sure

          21       they won't try to speak to you either.

          22           So that's the way we will conduct this view.  We all

          23       hope for not too disastrous weather, this afternoon

          24       especially, so I'm told, but we'll see how that goes as

          25       well.  I have not got any control over that either.




           1           So what we'll do now is -- I think that's all I want

           2       to say to you by way of warnings because really,

           3       effectively, you are going to be with me and the court

           4       staff for the rest of the day.  But it's quite usual for

           5       a particular member of the court staff, in this case the

           6       usher or the jury bailiff, to be sworn to give a formal

           7       declaration or affirmation or oath that he will keep you

           8       as directed by the court so I'll ask him to take that

           9       oath, please.

          10                      (JURY BAILIFF sworn)

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  There we are

          12       members of the jury, take with you what you have brought

          13       into court and then you can take on the coach whatever

          14       it is that you would wish to.  I am certainly going to

          15       take my jury bundle with me, which has the map and the

          16       other photographs in it that have already been talked

          17       about.

          18           So what I will ask you now to do is leave with the

          19       jury bailiff and we will meet up shortly in our

          20       transport.  There is nothing else to be said at this

          21       stage so thank you very much.