Transcript of the Hearing 30 September 2013

 

           1                                      Monday, 30 September 2013

           2   (2.00 pm)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (2.07 pm)

          

          11                  (In the presence of the jury)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood, the next witness you

          13       are going to call is ZZ17.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  It is indeed.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would it be appropriate to go

          16       straight in and call him into the witness box?

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes, please.

          18                         ZZ17 (affirmed)

          19                   (The witness was anonymised)

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Firstly, have a seat, please, before

          21       you identify yourself.  I indicate to those working with

          22       the cameras, the cameras can now be turned on, save for

          23       that on the witness.

          24                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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           1   A.  Good afternoon, sir.

           2   Q.  My name is Underwood and I am counsel for the Inquest.

           3       I will be asking questions in the first place.  I think

           4       we are calling you ZZ1 for the purposes of this Inquest;

           5       you understand that?

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  I want to ask you first of all about your role in

           8       Operation Dibri.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Before we do that, could you ask

          10       him -- do we have your true name down by ZZ17 on

          11       a document in the witness box?

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You can see from there other

          14       officers and their particular names and ciphers given

          15       should you need to refer to them.

          16   A.  Thank you, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sorry.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Not at all.  I want to ask, first of all,

          19       about your role within the structure of Operation Dibri

          20       in general.

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  First of all, in 2011, what was your rank?

          23   A.  Detective Sergeant, sir.

          24   Q.  In Trident?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                             2
 

 

 


           1   Q.  How long had you been in Trident by August 2011?

           2   A.  I had previously been on Trident as a Detective

           3       Constable.  When I was promoted I left for a short while

           4       then came back so I spent, I think, about two and

           5       a half years as a Detective Constable and then I had

           6       been back for a little over two years as a Detective

           7       Sergeant.

           8   Q.  Right.  Where did you fit into the set up in terms of

           9       SIO, deputy SIO, et cetera?

          10   A.  I was Detective Sergeant on the pro-active team.  As

          11       I believe you have heard there are a number of roles

          12       that have a title that's quite clearly defined like

          13       an SIO or TFC or many of these initials you have

          14       probably heard.  I didn't have one of those titles.

          15           My job was really, as a Detective Sergeant, on the

          16       pro-active team, the day-to-day running of my team and

          17       receiving and assessing intelligence and running the

          18       day-to-day response to that intelligence, working to

          19       Mr Foote, the SIO.

          20   Q.  So not technically the deputy SIO but, in practical

          21       terms, you worked to him and took intelligence?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  We know that there was a four-day operation being

          24       floated in July -- in fact before July -- for 3 to

          25       6 August and you were the one who created the form FA1


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           1       for that, are you?

           2   A.  That's right, yes.

           3   Q.  We've seen it, it's the one we have in bundles at C2.

           4       Do you need to see it in order to identify it or are you

           5       content that we have it?

           6   A.  I'm content, sir.

           7   Q.  Thank you.  What was to be your role in relation to that

           8       four-day operation?

           9   A.  During that operation, being a firearms operation, there

          10       was an Inspector, a Tactical Firearms Commander, Silver

          11       Commander, who was in charge of that operation.

          12   Q.  That's Z51, is it?

          13   A.  Yes, so really working to him to provide him with the

          14       intelligence on which he could make decisions.

          15   Q.  Was it envisaged that you would be doing that literally

          16       next to him, as it turned out?

          17   A.  Yes, sir, very much.

          18   Q.  Was that intelligence intended to come from SOCA?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  Do I understand it that in a setup like that, you are

          21       allowed to record intelligence in a book but at the end

          22       of the operation you have to give the book back to SOCA?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Is that what happened here?

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  We've got some what we call gists of some entries made

           2       in the book by you?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Can I just ask you to have a look at them, first of

           5       all -- they will come up on screen -- at CD32784.  I am

           6       not concerned at the moment with the earlier dates, we

           7       start there with 7 June, if we keep going.  On 3 August

           8       you have there:

           9           "Mark Duggan - social.

          10           "Loss by SCD11."

          11           Is that a reasonable summary of the note you made,

          12       can you recall?

          13   A.  I believe so, yes.

          14   Q.  Can you explain what it means by "Mark Duggan - social"?

          15   A.  So the notes I made, as you can see, were very cursory.

          16       I believe that refers to the fact that I received

          17       intelligence that Mark Duggan, at least at some stage on

          18       the 3rd, was not going to be involved in criminality, he

          19       was going to be involved in social activity that day.

          20   Q.  We know there was intelligence he went off to a family

          21       BBQ, is that --

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  Then "Loss by SCD11", can you recall what that --

          24   A.  Yes, SCD11, as you may have heard, are the Met's

          25       surveillance department.  They attempted to follow


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           1       Mr Duggan for a while on 3 August but they lost him,

           2       they lost sight of him.

           3   Q.  Then if we go down to 4 August 2011:

           4           "Mark Duggan in cab to Vicarage Road, Leyton.  Met

           5       E10."

           6           So "Mark Duggan in cab to Vicarage Road, Leyton", is

           7       that a record of intelligence given to you by SOCA to

           8       the effect that's what was going on?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  "Met E10", what does that mean, can you help?

          11   A.  I am not quite sure, sir.  I didn't create this

          12       document.  I could guess but I am not quite sure exactly

          13       what --

          14   Q.  Probably best not to guess.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Then you have an entry "Cab" with a registration number.

          17       Then:

          18           "Shots fired Ferry Lane, Tottenham Hale.  Signed off

          19       18.15 hours 4/8/2011."

          20           Is that simply a summary of the intelligence you got

          21       later on to the effect that he was seen to be in the cab

          22       and shots were fired in Ferry Lane?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Nothing else on that page, I think.  So that's all

          25       I want to take you to about those gists.  Apart from


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           1       those summarised records which, as we have agreed, you

           2       had to give to SOCA --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- was there any other record kept by you of

           5       intelligence?

           6   A.  No, sir.

           7   Q.  I want you to look, if you would, please, at a document

           8       put together very kindly by the legal team for the

           9       family here arising out of two witness statements put

          10       together by A10, the SOCA officer?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  What it does is put in a sort of chronological order the

          13       intelligence which A10 said he got and passed to you?

          14   A.  Yes, sir.

          15   Q.  Perhaps we could go to that.  It's in the jury bundle as

          16       C9 now and I hope you have a jury bundle there with

          17       tabs.

          18   A.  This one.

          19   Q.  Yes, it's certainly a red one.

          20   A.  I have one that says "Jury bundle" and one "Documents to

          21       be shown in hard copy to jury".

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's the second one.  You'll see

          23       dividers and it's divider 9.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Divider number 9.

          25   A.  Yes, I have that, sir, thank you.


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           1   Q.  Let's go through this to see to what degree this is

           2       intelligence which you can now recall that you had.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  The first is that:

           5           "On 31 July 2011 I [A10] received credible

           6       intelligence that Mark Duggan wished to collect

           7       a firearm from a male associate.  This intelligence

           8       indicated that the male might be called 'Kevin' but

           9       there was insufficient intelligence to establish the

          10       male's identity, where the firearm was being stored or

          11       when it was going to be collected."

          12           Can you recall now whether you received that sort of

          13       intelligence or anything like it on 31 July?

          14   A.  Sir, I believe 31 July was the Sunday.  I wasn't working

          15       that day.  I believe I received that the Monday or

          16       possibly the Tuesday.  I think probably the Monday.

          17   Q.  Let's move on then:

          18           "On 1 August [that would be the Monday] 2011

          19       I received further intelligence that the male associate

          20       holding this firearm stored it at the premises of

          21       an unidentified female and, due to the female's absence

          22       at work each day, he would not be able to gain entry to

          23       the premises to retrieve the firearm until she returned

          24       from work some time mid-to-late evening."

          25           Can you recall whether you got that sort of


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           1       intelligence on or about 1 August?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  Then moving on to the 2nd:

           4           "I [A10] received further credible intelligence on

           5       2 August 2011 that indicated that the male 'Kevin' was

           6       likely to be Kevin Hutchinson-Foster.  There was still

           7       insufficient intelligence to identify where the firearm

           8       was being stored or when it would be collected."

           9           Let me move on:

          10           "On 2 August I received intelligence that Kevin

          11       Hutchinson-Foster would not be in London in the evening

          12       so Mark Duggan would not be able to meet with him to

          13       collect the firearm."

          14           So, what's packaged up there is that on 2 August A10

          15       says that "Kevin" was likely to be Kevin

          16       Hutchinson-Foster, still insufficient intelligence to

          17       identify where the firearm was or when it would be

          18       collected but it wouldn't be that evening because

          19       Hutchinson-Foster wasn't going to be in London that

          20       evening.  Again, did you know that?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  Then moving on:

          23           "On 3 August 2011 I received further intelligence

          24       that Mark Duggan still wished to collect the firearm

          25       from the male whom I now believe to be Kevin


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           1       Hutchinson-Foster.  There was still insufficient

           2       intelligence to identify where the firearm was being

           3       stored beyond the premises of the female associate

           4       probably the Leyton area.  The intelligence indicated

           5       that Kevin Hutchinson-Foster intended to travel out of

           6       London later that evening.  I subsequently received

           7       intelligence that indicated that Mark Duggan would not

           8       be in a position to collect the firearm as he was

           9       attending a family barbeque.  I disseminated all of this

          10       intelligence to ZZ17 by telephone.

          11           "The intelligence throughout this period indicated

          12       that Mark Duggan upon collection of the firearm would

          13       store it at unidentified premises."

          14           So, narrowing it down then to the Leyton area,

          15       a potential pickup that evening, but which didn't happen

          16       because of the family barbeque apparently, and that,

          17       when collected, the firearm would be stored at

          18       an unidentified premises; was that all known to you --

          19   A.  Yes, it was, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  -- on the 3rd?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Thank you.  Then moving on to the 4th, and I will deal

          23       with this in detail later, A10 says:

          24           "Some time between 1710 and 1715 on 4 August 2011

          25       I received intelligence that indicated that Mr Duggan


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           1       would be imminently travelling by minicab to Vicarage

           2       Road in Leyton to collect the firearm.  This was the

           3       first occasion on which I received intelligence which

           4       indicated an area where the firearm might be.

           5       I assessed the intelligence as being credible and

           6       immediately disseminated it to ZZ17 by way of a verbal

           7       briefing by telephone.

           8           "Later on 4 August ... I received credible

           9       intelligence that Mr Duggan was in possession of the

          10       firearm and intended taking it to the Broadwater Farm

          11       Estate had in Tottenham, I immediately disseminated this

          12       intelligence to ZZ17 by way of a verbal briefing by

          13       telephone."

          14           Again, in broad terms, is that accurate?

          15   A.  Absolutely, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  As I say, I will come back to detail in a bit.  We have

          17       to be very careful about the source of this

          18       intelligence.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  I just want to ask you this about it: did you know what

          21       the source was?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  How reliable did you consider it?

          24   A.  As reliable as there is, sir.

          25   Q.  Before we move off documents, you were present, I think,


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           1       at a briefing given to, amongst others, CO19 officers on

           2       3 August.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  If we look very briefly at CD274, which I think we can

           5       have on screen.  It starts with Z51 and it moves onto

           6       you.  I don't want to take you through this in detail,

           7       I just want you to identify it please.  We are told this

           8       is a briefing which was recorded and this is

           9       a transcript of it?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Have you seen this transcript?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Is it, in fact, the briefing that you attended and

          14       assisted in?

          15   A.  Yes, it is.

          16   Q.  Thank you very much.

          17           Now, between 31 July 2011 and 4 August, was all the

          18       intelligence being fed to you for this four-day

          19       operation fed from SOCA or was there any other outside

          20       agency?

          21   A.  All of the particular intelligence was from SOCA, sir.

          22       There was a general background of intelligence I was

          23       aware of but all of this intelligence was from SOCA.

          24   Q.  Thank you.  Did your team, the Trident team, have other

          25       intelligence officers apart from you?


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           1   A.  Yes, but all of the relevant intelligence for this

           2       operation came to me.

           3   Q.  We know that there were two Trident officers also

           4       involved on the day, on 4 August, as it turned out: ZZ37

           5       and ZZ46?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  I am not suggesting they were the intelligence officers

           8       for the operation but did those two officers happen to

           9       have an intelligence function?

          10   A.  Their function for this operation, sir, was more in

          11       terms of me tasking them to conduct research on the

          12       intelligence I received from SOCA, if that makes sense.

          13   Q.  It does, thank you.  I don't want to delve into the

          14       detail of what sort of intelligence capabilities Trident

          15       had in 2011 --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- but did you have things like databases with known

          18       associates on them, that sort of thing?

          19   A.  There are those databases available to the police, yes,

          20       sir.

          21   Q.  Were you in possession, as of 3 and 4 August, of

          22       a telephone number, mobile telephone number, thought to

          23       be connected or associated with this man, Kevin?

          24   A.  No, sir.

          25   Q.  Do you know if any of your team was?


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           1   A.  I don't think they would have been, sir, no.

           2   Q.  Did you task ZZ46 to do any research?

           3   A.  I did, yes.

           4   Q.  So if I want to know about research done she will be the

           5       person to ask, would she?

           6   A.  It may be -- sorry, sir, I may have misunderstood your

           7       question.  It may be, during the course of research

           8       conducted by ZZ46, that she may have come across

           9       telephone numbers connected to --

          10   Q.  Fine.  All I am concerned about at the moment is who

          11       I ask the questions to.  ZZ46 is the lady who did the

          12       intelligence research in that few-day period, is she?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  We have heard that, because nothing transpired on

          15       3 August, CO19 wasn't actually deployed; is that right?

          16   A.  That is right, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  How did this work in practical terms?  SCD11 were

          18       running this MASTS operation, the figurehead, if you

          19       like, of the MASTS operation, supported by CO19 --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- but they actually went out on the 3rd, did they,

          22       without CO19 support?

          23   A.  That's right.  CO19 stayed the police station,

          24       basically.

          25   Q.  Now, we have also heard the way this four-day operation


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           1       was set up was that people would assemble at

           2       6 o'clock --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- because it was anticipated that if anything was going

           5       to happen it would happen late at night or early in the

           6       morning.

           7   A.  Absolutely, yes.

           8   Q.  Was there anything in the way the intelligence

           9       accumulated or in the way anything happened on 3 August

          10       that made you reconsider that for the 4th?

          11   A.  Sorry, sir, I didn't follow that.

          12   Q.  I'll take it again.  Everybody was due to assemble at

          13       6 o'clock on those four evenings.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  I'm asking you whether there was any reason for you to

          16       reconsider that for the 4th, anything arising out of the

          17       intelligence you had or anything that happened?

          18   A.  No, sir.

          19   Q.  So on the 4th then, the accumulation of officers was due

          20       to happen --

          21   A.  6 o'clock again, yes.

          22   Q.  -- at Quicksilver?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  You though were at Quicksilver before then, were you?

          25   A.  Yes.


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           1   Q.  What time did you go there?

           2   A.  I'm not entirely sure, maybe an hour or two earlier.

           3   Q.  What were you doing?

           4   A.  I had received some intelligence during the day on the

           5       4th in relation to another person, who wasn't one of the

           6       six subjects of this particular operation, to suggest

           7       that he may be in possession of a firearm.  So I had

           8       come in a bit early and asked a couple of my team to

           9       come in a bit early to start conducting some research

          10       around him to see whether he should be somebody we

          11       should be looking at in addition to the six.

          12   Q.  Right.  We know that A10 says that he received some

          13       intelligence between 5.10 and 5.15 which he passed to

          14       you.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  What time did you get that?

          17   A.  I think in my statement, sir, I have estimated it as

          18       5.20, it may have been a few minutes out either way.

          19   Q.  Let's take a snapshot at 5.20 then.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  You were at Quicksilver.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Of all the people who were expected to be there at

          24       6 o'clock, how many other people were there?

          25   A.  None of the CO19 team had arrived at that point,


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           1       I believe a handful of the SCD11 surveillance team had

           2       arrived -- I wouldn't know how many, three or four of

           3       them maybe -- and I believe from my team there was ZZ37,

           4       46, 75, and I think that was it at that stage.

           5   Q.  Okay.  The substance of the intelligence was that

           6       Mr Duggan was on his way to the Vicarage Road area to

           7       collect the gun imminently; is that right?

           8   A.  That he was going to be going imminently, sir.

           9   Q.  "Was going to go imminently" or "was on his way to do it

          10       imminently"?

          11   A.  I believe "was going to go imminently", sir.

          12   Q.  Do you know where Z51 was at 5.20?

          13   A.  He wasn't -- he had not yet arrived.  I spoke to him on

          14       the telephone a short while later.  He was still on his

          15       way.

          16   Q.  What impression did you have about where he was, how far

          17       away he was?

          18   A.  He was buying a sandwich, as I understand it, some miles

          19       away.

          20   Q.  Did you know where the CO19 team were?

          21   A.  Not at that stage, sir, no.

          22   Q.  So you got in contact with Z51.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  What else did you do?

          25   A.  Well, the first thing I did, sir, was to send the three


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           1       Trident officers that I had to start heading towards the

           2       Leyton area.  Then the next thing was to speak to Z51,

           3       and then, having spoken to him, I contacted the team

           4       leaders for the SCD11 surveillance team and the CO19

           5       firearms team and asked them to make their way as

           6       quickly as possible to Quicksilver.

           7   Q.  Why did you send the Trident officers rather than the

           8       SCD11 officers?

           9   A.  Because they were able to go faster, sir.  Because they

          10       are not armed, Trident officers, and because they are

          11       used to working perhaps more dynamically and in smaller

          12       groups than the SCD11 officers, I was able to send

          13       those, because those officers reported directly to me, to

          14       start heading in that direction.  In order to do

          15       anything with the SCD11 team, I really needed to speak

          16       to their team leader and there would need to be

          17       consideration as to whether they needed to get their

          18       guns out, whether they needed to deploy as a team and,

          19       again, the officers from my team were perhaps more

          20       familiar with the intelligence around this operation,

          21       the subjects we were dealing with, than the surveillance

          22       officers who had come in.

          23   Q.  Right.  Does that also answer what might be the next

          24       question otherwise, which is: why did everybody else

          25       then get brought to Quicksilver rather than get sent to


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           1       Vicarage Road?

           2   A.  Yes, I mean Quicksilver was where we had obviously

           3       planned for everybody to meet at 6.00; that was the

           4       plan.  Some of those officers had already arrived.  The

           5       intelligence at that stage was still imprecise, it

           6       seemed the best thing to do was get everybody together,

           7       to get them briefed up as quickly as possible and see if

           8       we could get the original plan going just on a shorter

           9       timeframe.

          10   Q.  Was that your personal decision or was that what Z51

          11       agreed to do or advised?

          12   A.  As I say, sir, the first thing I did was to send the

          13       Trident officers to start making their way towards

          14       Leyton, so to start sending them was my decision.

          15       I very quickly spoke to Z51, we had a fairly short

          16       conversation and it was his decision -- he was in charge

          17       but I think we were both in agreement -- that that was

          18       the thing to do.

          19   Q.  How long did it take for people to assemble then?

          20   A.  As I say, I received the intelligence about 5.20.  The

          21       Trident officers were arriving in dribs and drabs.  The

          22       firearms team -- I don't have a record of it, I could

          23       estimate, sir --

          24   Q.  Estimate for the moment.

          25   A.  I would say they probably arrived by 5.35, something


                                            19
 

 

 


           1       like that.

           2   Q.  How long after that did everybody hit the road?

           3   A.  The intelligence picture continued to develop and the

           4       Trident officers sort of arrived in the Vicarage Road

           5       area.  Myself and Z51 left Quicksilver with the firearms

           6       team, I would say, shortly before 6 o'clock, and

           7       I believe the surveillance team left a short while after

           8       us.

           9   Q.  You say the intelligence was developing.  We know that

          10       the Trident officers that you sent off got to Vicarage

          11       Road, in fact I think, before the minicab did.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Were they reporting back to you what they saw?

          14   A.  Yes, by the radio, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  So it was about 40 minutes after you first got the

          16       intelligence about the imminent leaving to go to

          17       Vicarage Road that you and Z51 and the CO19 officers

          18       left Quicksilver; is that right?

          19   A.  About that, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  Where did you set off for then?

          21   A.  Sorry sir, I didn't catch that.

          22   Q.  Where did you set off for?

          23   A.  By the time we left there, the Trident officers had

          24       spotted the minicab.  So we headed for that area where

          25       the minicab was.


                                            20
 

 

 


           1   Q.  What was the aim: was it to get behind it or to do

           2       a stop in the Vicarage Road area or what?

           3   A.  I think, sir, by -- as we left, the minicab had just

           4       arrived in Vicarage Road and, certainly from the

           5       intelligence I was receiving, I believed Mr Duggan was

           6       about to take possession of a firearm.  Very shortly

           7       after we left, again based on the intelligence available

           8       to me, I came to the opinion that Mr Duggan was, at that

           9       stage, in possession of the firearm.  Once we got to

          10       that stage, Z51 authorised the operation to change to

          11       state amber -- I don't know if you've been through what

          12       that means.

          13   Q.  We have heard of that, but I will ask you more about

          14       that in a moment.

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  Let's get this clear then.  At about 6 o'clock you left,

          17       at that stage you didn't know that the gun had been

          18       picked up.

          19   A.  (Nods)

          20   Q.  You were intending to have the convoy of CO19 vehicles

          21       and the vehicle you were in to go to the Vicarage Road

          22       area --

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  -- and en route there quite quickly you learned of the

          25       intelligence that the gun had been picked up, yes?


                                            21
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Was it also part of that intelligence then that Mark

           3       Duggan was thought to be going to Broadwater Farm with

           4       the gun?

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  So what was the aim then: was it to get behind the

           7       minicab or get in front of the minicab or go to

           8       Broadwater Farm or what?

           9   A.  I think to get behind the minicab, sir.

          10   Q.  Was it known whereabouts in Broadwater Farm Mr Duggan

          11       was thought to be going with this gun?

          12   A.  No.

          13   Q.  Now, obviously this intelligence came in earlier than

          14       everybody was expecting to move at 6 o'clock?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  What I want to explore with you is possibilities.

          17   A.  Okay, sir.

          18   Q.  Given the way the intelligence developed between 5.20

          19       and about 6 o'clock --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- and looking back on it now, can you think of anything

          22       better that could have been done?

          23   A.  Not really, sir, no.

          24   Q.  Would it have made any difference to you, or could it

          25       have made any difference to you, if that intelligence


                                            22
 

 

 


           1       had come in earlier?

           2   A.  I think if I had known a number of hours earlier

           3       precisely what was going to happen, yes.  I think if

           4       that information had come in a few minutes earlier, even

           5       an hour earlier, then probably not, no.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, I missed the last little bit

           7       of your answer.  If it had come in a few minutes

           8       earlier?

           9   A.  If it had come in three or four hours previously,

          10       I think -- and it had been quite specific, then that may

          11       have changed what happened.  I think if it had come in

          12       a few minutes or even an hour earlier --

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Even an hour?

          14   A.  -- it probably wouldn't have made very much difference.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let's look at that in a bit more detail.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Say the information had come in three or four hours

          19       earlier --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- that at 5.20 Mr Duggan would be leaving somewhere to

          22       go imminently to Vicarage Road?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  What could you have done?

          25   A.  If I had had that sort of notice, sir, then I imagine we


                                            23
 

 

 


           1       would have looked to have, obviously, officers on duty

           2       and briefed earlier than they were, rather than the

           3       6 o'clock briefing that we were planning.  There's any

           4       number of hypotheticals that may have occurred.

           5   Q.  I suppose, to be fair, the decision that would have been

           6       made then would have been made by Z51 with your

           7       assistance, would it?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  But if the intelligence had come in, say, an hour before

          10       that at 5.20 Mr Duggan would be leaving imminently to go

          11       to Vicarage Road, you say that wouldn't have made

          12       a difference?

          13   A.  It's obviously a continuum, sir.  But the point I am

          14       trying to make is, to make a real difference to the

          15       plan, I think we would have needed several hours to

          16       really consider any sort of different plan.

          17   Q.  Okay.  So let's get back to what actually happened then.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  Once you've got the intelligence that satisfied you that

          20       Mr Duggan had picked up a gun and indeed was on his way

          21       to Broadwater Farm, you told Z51, did you --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- and he called amber.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  What was the effect of calling amber as far as you


                                            24
 

 

 


           1       understood it, in terms of who had control after that?

           2   A.  At that stage, the surveillance officers, who at this

           3       time happened to be from Trident, still had control of

           4       following Mr Duggan.  By going to amber, Z51 had

           5       authorised and asked the firearms team to make their way

           6       to be in a position to intercept that vehicle and to

           7       stop it.

           8   Q.  In terms of who decided the next step, once amber had

           9       been called, what was your understanding?

          10   A.  Sorry, in what way, sir?

          11   Q.  Which officer would be responsible for calling the next

          12       part of the traffic light code?  Who would be

          13       responsible for calling red?

          14   A.  One of the CO19 officers.

          15   Q.  When amber was called, where were you physically in

          16       relation to Vicarage Road, were you anywhere near it at

          17       all?

          18   A.  We were some distance, sir.  To be honest, I was

          19       concentrating on the intelligence I was receiving, I was

          20       on the phone quite a lot.  I was trusting the CO19

          21       officers and the drivers to get us where we needed to

          22       be.  I could not really tell you with any accuracy.

          23   Q.  I have spoken about the convoy, the Alpha, Bravo and

          24       Charlie CO19 cars were there --

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            25
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- and the control Land Rover Discovery that you were

           2       in.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  You were in that with Z51, V59 and the driver, were you?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Were you in the back or the front?

           7   A.  In the back, sir.

           8   Q.  Were you conscious of red being called?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Do you know where you were then?  (Pause)

          11   A.  I think we had turned from Markhouse Road into

          12       Forest Road, which becomes Ferry Lane, so somewhere

          13       along that stretch of Forest Road and Ferry Lane.

          14   Q.  Could you see the minicab?

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  Did you see the stop?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Can you describe it for the jury, please?

          19   A.  Yes, sir.  As is normal practice with these things, the

          20       control car, fourth car in the convoy, sat back.  The

          21       three cars Alpha, Bravo and Charlie basically boxed in

          22       the minicab.  I was conscious at that time that there

          23       was --

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just answer, this is the first time

          25       we have heard anything to do with the actual stop so if


                                            26
 

 

 


           1       you can go nice and slowly and perhaps give us a little

           2       bit more detail.

           3   A.  Certainly, sir, yes.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  How did the Alpha car act?

           5   A.  The Alpha car, the first car in the convoy, overtakes

           6       the minicab and basically pulls in in front of it

           7       sharply, forcing it to a stop.  The Bravo car, pulls up

           8       alongside the driver's side of the minicab, and the

           9       Charlie car boxes it in from the back, so the three cars

          10       effectively rapidly box in the minicab.

          11   Q.  Did you hear any sirens or see any blue lights?  (Pause)

          12   A.  I believe I heard sirens, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Did the stop appear to be satisfactory to you; did it go

          14       smoothly?

          15   A.  As I was saying, sir, just before the stop went in,

          16       I was conscious it was -- compared with Markhouse Road

          17       where we had been coming up, which was very busy, there

          18       was a train station there, it was fairly quiet.  I was

          19       conscious of one woman on a pedal cycle who was coming

          20       up behind the minicab.  As the stop went in I looked

          21       round just to check she was not going to continue into

          22       the area where the stop was happening.  In fact,

          23       I couldn't see her so I was distracted momentarily by

          24       that.

          25           I looked back and I probably couldn't describe it in


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       detail, but I certainly had an impression of the

           2       passenger, who turned out to be Mr Duggan, rushing out

           3       of the back, the passenger side of the taxi, and --

           4   Q.  Did you have a clear view from where you were of the

           5       taxi or were there any cars in between you?

           6   A.  Fairly clear, sir.  There were three CO19 cars that

           7       surrounded it.  We were the next car back from that.

           8       Obviously, as I say, I was sat in the back of the car.

           9   Q.  You were in the back nearside or back offside?

          10   A.  Back nearside, the passenger side.  Once the three CO19

          11       cars surround the minicab, most of the CO19 officers

          12       jump out of their cars and rapidly surround the minicab

          13       on foot.

          14   Q.  So officers got out?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  Did you see whether they were brandishing -- that's not

          17       the right word -- flourishing, having in their hands

          18       firearms?

          19   A.  They had guns, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  Did you see them do that before Mr Duggan came out of

          21       the minicab or after?

          22   A.  I believe they had their guns in their hands beforehand,

          23       sir.

          24   Q.  They were surrounding the minicab before he came out or

          25       afterwards?


                                            28
 

 

 


           1   A.  It was all kind of one thing, sir.  As I say, I kind of

           2       looked round, looked back, the CO19 officers were

           3       running towards the minicab and the man who was in the

           4       back of the cab moved and you could kind of see the CO19

           5       officers all then kind of swarm round to where he was

           6       clearly trying to get out of the minicab.

           7   Q.  I think you say he rushed out.  Can you describe how far

           8       he got and what sort of actions he was using?

           9   A.  Not in any detail.  Sir, I was aware, as I say, of

          10       someone moving and it was more the reaction of the CO19

          11       officers I could see moving there.  As they closed in

          12       they kind of blocked my vision of what was going on,

          13       I could just see the backs of all the CO19 officers

          14       converging on that side of the vehicle.

          15   Q.  How many of those CO19 officers roughly did it seem to

          16       you were swarming round him?

          17   A.  Seven or eight, something of that number, sir, I'm not

          18       sure.

          19   Q.  Very roughly, as best you can, how far away from him

          20       were they?

          21   A.  They pretty much closed in right by where the minicab

          22       was.

          23   Q.  So a few feet from him or more?

          24   A.  Sorry, at which stage, sir?

          25   Q.  As you were watching this, you say they swarmed round


                                            29
 

 

 


           1       him.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  When they were swarming round him how close did they

           4       get?

           5   A.  Very close.

           6   Q.  So A few feet?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  Did you see or hear shooting?

           9   A.  I heard some shots fired, yes.

          10   Q.  Can you say how many you heard?

          11   A.  Not with accuracy sir, no.

          12   Q.  How rapidly were they fired?

          13   A.  Immediately after a shot.

          14   Q.  Sorry, immediately?

          15   A.  Immediately, sort of -- I am trying to think how to

          16       describe it, sir.  There was one shot, then there was

          17       another one, and then possibly another one, two or three

          18       shots.

          19   Q.  After the shots were fired, what happened?

          20   A.  Very quickly I heard officers -- CO19 officers --

          21       calling for an ambulance, calling someone had been shot,

          22       calling for the HEMS helicopter.  After a short while,

          23       I was aware that Mr Duggan had been shot and also that

          24       one of the officers had been shot.

          25   Q.  How did you become aware Mr Duggan had been shot?  Did


                                            30
 

 

 


           1       you see it or hear it or what?

           2   A.  I think initially somebody shouted something.  I relayed

           3       calls from the CO19 officers back to some of my

           4       colleagues to call for an ambulance and to call for

           5       HEMS, and then fairly quickly I could see the first aid

           6       efforts starting.

           7   Q.  Was this all this while you were still in the Land Rover

           8       or had you moved?

           9   A.  I'm not 100 per cent sure whether I was still in the

          10       Land Rover or immediately next to it.

          11   Q.  I want to ask you what you did next in a moment --

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  -- but just go back to the time in which officers were

          14       swarming towards what turned out to be Mr Duggan --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- and before you heard shots fired.  Did you hear any

          17       shouting?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.  The usual "Stop, armed police", those kinds

          19       of shouts.  I couldn't tell you exactly what they were

          20       now but that kind of thing.

          21   Q.  So there came a point where you told us either you were

          22       still in the Land Rover or you were next to it.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  You were relaying calls for the HEMS and so on?

          25   A.  Certainly by the stage I was relaying that, I was out of


                                            31
 

 

 


           1       the vehicle, sir, because I was kind of running back and

           2       shouting to my colleagues to call ambulances and so on.

           3   Q.  Then what did you do?

           4   A.  I remember -- I believe you've been to Ferry Lane, sir.

           5       I remember some people started to walk over the bridge

           6       from the Tottenham side, along the foot way where

           7       Mr Duggan was now being treated.  So I ran over, just

           8       held people back there, at the top of the bridge or over

           9       to the other side of the bridge.  Some other officers

          10       very quickly took over those kind of cordon duties, if

          11       I can put it that way.  I then returned back to the

          12       vicinity of the control vehicle.

          13   Q.  What did you do after that?  What did you engage in?

          14   A.  I rang Alpha 10, told him what had happened.

          15   Q.  That's A10 as we are calling him?

          16   A.  Yes, sorry, A10, the SOCA officer, sir.  There was kind

          17       of a period of everything happening very quickly and

          18       ambulances being called, and so on, cordons being put

          19       in, and then really everything from what -- my side of

          20       things, calmed down.  I didn't do a great deal more.

          21   Q.  Okay.  I'm going to show you a video in a moment and

          22       just ask you if you can identify some people for us --

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  -- and see whether you can place yourself there even.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            32
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Before I do that, can I just ask you whether any

           2       consideration was given to going back to what turned out

           3       to be Burchell Road and arresting Mr Hutchinson-Foster

           4       or the lady who was thought to have the gun or finding

           5       more guns?

           6   A.  Obviously, sir, by the time Mr Duggan had been shot and

           7       clearly the IPCC were going to come down and take over

           8       that side of the investigation, that kind of tied our

           9       hands, to some extent.  Also, I didn't know exactly

          10       where Mr Hutchinson-Foster was.

          11   Q.  I fully understand that where a man dies in a operation

          12       like this that it's going to make everybody stop and

          13       think very seriously.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  If that's a reason for concentrating on Mr Duggan,

          16       nobody is going to criticise you, I suspect, but I want

          17       to unpick that answer a little.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  The IPCC did not get itself involved in the operation

          20       about whether there were more guns, did it?

          21   A.  No, sir, sorry, I didn't mean to say that.

          22   Q.  It was concerned with the fact that a policeman had shot

          23       someone dead, wasn't it?

          24   A.  Yes, sorry, what I meant was obviously these particular

          25       officers had to go back and make their notes and so


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       forth.

           2   Q.  Fine.  You still had a lot of SCD11 officers, didn't

           3       you, who had not been involved in this --

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  -- who were armed?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  You say you didn't know where Mr Hutchinson-Foster was?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  By the time Mr Duggan was shot, you had known that the

          10       transfer had taken place in Burchell Road, had you not?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Are you saying that thought was given to going back to

          13       get the guns or Mr Hutchinson-Foster or the young lady

          14       or that no thought was given but it wouldn't have made

          15       any difference?

          16   A.  Sir, I think certainly I gave it some brief thought.

          17       Had I known Mr Hutchinson-Foster is at a particular

          18       address now, potentially in possession of another

          19       firearm or at least there would be evidence that he had

          20       transferred this firearm I would have given it more

          21       thought.  But I think a more in detail investigation

          22       would have been needed.  I didn't know where he was.

          23   Q.  Okay.  Let's have a look at this footage, if we may.

          24       Can I explain what's happened here?  It's well known

          25       that the BBC obtained some footage taken -- in fact, it


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       was taken on firstly a BlackBerry and then a video

           2       function of a still camera.

           3           We've got it -- the audio track has been taken off

           4       for the moment.  What we've had done to it is stabilise

           5       it.  If you look at the original it jerks all over the

           6       place.  What the experts have done is stabilise it so

           7       the image, the centre of the image, stays in the same

           8       place most of the time, so one has a fairly clear view

           9       of it.  We have also had an arrow put over the head of

          10       Z51 in case that gives you some sort of focal point as

          11       we look through it.

          12           In fact, even before we get to that, we've got CCTV

          13       from a bus.

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  I don't know whether you have seen that.

          16   A.  No, sir.

          17   Q.  Perhaps we can look at that.

          18           What I want to do is show you CCTV footage from the

          19       bus because it shows a man running.  We had not

          20       identified him yet but from something you said kindly to

          21       me about five minutes ago we wondered whether it might

          22       be you.

          23   A.  Okay, sir.

          24   Q.  Before I do that, I want to give the family the chance

          25       to leave and not to see this in case it's upsetting for


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       them, so perhaps I can pause for a moment.  (Pause)

           2           Thank you officer.  We'll have a look at this bus

           3       CCTV.  We'll take it slowly and just have a run through

           4       once.

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  It's on the other side of the road coming from Tottenham

           7       Tottenham.

           8                    (CCTV played to the court)

           9   Q.  If we pause it there.  Would you like to see that again?

          10   A.  Yes, please, sir.

          11   Q.  I want to try to ask you whether you can see yourself as

          12       one of those runners.

          13                    (CCTV played to the court)

          14   Q.  Can you identify yourself there?

          15   A.  I cannot be certain from the video, sir.  That looks

          16       like where I remember going but I could not tell you

          17       from that whether that --

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What are you actually referring to?

          19   A.  Sorry, sir.  Yes, there's a figure that runs up on the

          20       right-hand side of the screen --

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Pushing people back.

          22   A.  -- pushing people back.  I remember at one point going

          23       up that area.  I couldn't say whether that is me or not.

          24       It could well be.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What's happened to the motor car


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       behind you or someone like you going on at that time?

           2       Can you see that?

           3           Just run through that again.

           4   A.  I'm not sure, sir.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You think that could be you going

           6       up?

           7                    (CCTV played to the court)

           8   A.  That could be me there, sir, I'm not sure.  I can see

           9       the car manoeuvring, I'm not sure what's happening

          10       there, sir.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  We are all doing

          12       the best we can.

          13   A.  Sorry, I cannot be certain, sir.  It could well be me.

          14   Q.  Let's have a look at this stabilised footage from the

          15       BBC then.  As I say, there's an arrow over the head of

          16       Z51 as we watch it.  We may need to see this several

          17       times.

          18               (Video footage played to the court)

          19   Q.  Can we just pause it there?

          20           Help us.  We see a bus stop --

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  -- and a big vehicle there; is that the control vehicle,

          23       the Land Rover?

          24   A.  Just next to the bus stop, yes.

          25   Q.  The Alpha car, we know the Alpha car was moved slightly


                                            37
 

 

 


           1       after the event slightly forward to help keep

           2       pedestrians away?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  In general there, do you recognise the scene?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Have you managed to identify yourself?

           7   A.  I'm afraid not, sir, no.

           8   Q.  Can you help us with what generally was going on there?

           9       (Pause)

          10   A.  You can see where the -- as I tried to describe

          11       earlier -- the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie cars boxed in the

          12       minicab and the control Land Rover stopped just behind

          13       that.  I'm afraid I cannot really be clear exactly at

          14       what stage this has happened, so exactly what's

          15       happening, but this is the scene, sir --

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Fair enough.  Thank you very much.  I have no

          17       further questions for you, but it may be you will be

          18       asked a reasonable number by other people.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  Mr Mansfield?

          20                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

          21   MR MANSFIELD:  Sir, may I just indicate, we are apparently

          22       going to receive more documentation this afternoon, but

          23       may I start and see how far I can get?

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Of course, please.  Thank you.

          25   MR MANSFIELD:  Officer, good afternoon.


                                            38
 

 

 


           1   A.  Good afternoon, sir.

           2   Q.  My name is Michael Mansfield, I represent the family of

           3       Mr Duggan.

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  Can I indicate straight away the context in which I am

           6       asking you questions?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  One of the issues that the jury are considering, one of

           9       two major issues, is the extent to which the operation

          10       over these days, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th, was planned and

          11       implemented in such a way as to minimise the risk of

          12       lethal force being used, I paraphrase.

          13   A.  Yes, I understand, sir.

          14   Q.  You understand?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  That's why I have a number of questions to ask you about

          17       some of these days.  As we are dealing and have been

          18       dealing with images first of all -- I appreciate it's

          19       sometimes quite difficult to look at a film and say "I'm

          20       there" or "I'm not there", but you were at one stage

          21       shown an image, a photograph, weren't you?  Do you

          22       remember being shown a photograph and you thought you

          23       could see yourself in it, as well as Z51?

          24           I would like you to see, because I can't put to you

          25       it was this image, first of all, it appears to be CE310,


                                            39
 

 

 


           1       please.  It's a photograph or a still --

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  -- taken -- I am going to pause.

           4           The jury may not have seen this before.  Obviously

           5       from a timing point of view, the distinction between

           6       what we have just seen and this one is that an ambulance

           7       has turned up, so it's later.

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  It's not so much the timing for the moment.  The

          10       positions of the cars there are, as we have just seen,

          11       that is the police cars and the minicab, with your

          12       control car next to the bus stop; you see all of that?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  Is this the one that you were shown or you cannot say?

          15   A.  I don't believe I've been shown this picture, sir.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I help the jury?  Is this not

          17       page 14 in the jury bundle?

          18   MR MANSFIELD:  It may be page 14, I'm so sorry, yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Members of the jury, just turn up

          20       your page 14.  Obviously it's a little closer because

          21       you have not got the people standing on the left, but

          22       it's much the same.  It's very close to it anyway.  Some

          23       of the people are in a different position.

          24   MR MANSFIELD:  There are a number of photographs in sequence

          25       but it may be part of that sequence.


                                            40
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's almost there, not exactly,

           2       but --

           3   MR MANSFIELD:  The one I have at 14 is a close up of the same

           4       scene.  Can I just hold it up and make sure we are

           5       all -- it's a photograph with obviously a medic, I would

           6       suggest, in an orange coat --

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's not on that.

           8   MR MANSFIELD:  -- (indicates) and it isn't on that other

           9       one.  The confusing thing is -- well, not confusing --

          10       there are a number of photographs or stills taken from

          11       moving film at slightly different times, but -- it's not

          12       a memory test, I am not asking you to remember this, but

          13       last December you made a statement about this question

          14       of being shown an image.  I take it that it was

          15       a photograph of Z51 --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- holding a booklet.

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Does that jog your memory?

          20   A.  It does, sir, yes.  But I do not believe it was the same

          21       picture exactly, sir.

          22   Q.  Can we just continue with this for a moment?  If

          23       somebody could very kindly inform me what the image was.

          24       It doesn't say in your statement what it was that you

          25       were shown other than an image; do you follow?


                                            41
 

 

 


           1   A.  I do, sir.  I'm afraid I don't know if I had a reference

           2       number for it.  I was just shown an image.

           3   Q.  No, I appreciate that, it's not your responsibility.

           4       But that's to jog your memory.

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  Looking at this one, there are a number of individuals

           7       in this photograph; are you in it?

           8   A.  Sir, the figure on the very left there, I was wearing

           9       a green t-shirt.  I cannot be certain, I think that may

          10       be me.

          11   Q.  Right.  Well, we had supposed it might be.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  So it's a fair assessment so far.  That might be you,

          14       I won't put it higher than that.

          15   A.  I think it probably is, sir, but I cannot be certain.

          16   Q.  Thank you very much.  Can you help us with the other

          17       three, standing next to you?

          18   A.  Next to me appears to be, from what I can see, a uniform

          19       officer with body armour.

          20   Q.  He/she wouldn't have been part of the CO19?

          21   A.  No.

          22   Q.  But the other two in plain clothes?

          23   A.  I'm not sure, sir, I'm sorry.

          24   Q.  Then I want to you move across in the photograph,

          25       please, and could we do the same thing here.  First of


                                            42
 

 

 


           1       all, could we hone in on the two figures walking away

           2       from the ambulance.  Now, are you able to help us about

           3       either of those two?

           4   A.  I'm not 100 per cent, certain.  I think the figure on

           5       the left may be Z51.

           6   Q.  Yes, I was going to suggest it might be.  Now, who's the

           7       one in the white top?

           8   A.  I'm about 50/50, sir.  Do you want me to say the name

           9       or --

          10   Q.  Well, not the name because I will probably get into

          11       trouble if you say the name, but if you have an acronym.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have a list of those --

          13   A.  The person I'm thinking of, sir, is not anonymous.

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  Right, then you can say the name.

          15   A.  I believe, and I may be wrong, but I believe it's

          16       DS Dempsey.

          17   Q.  Dempsey, all right.  If the photograph -- if we could go

          18       above that, there's someone else with -- we'll see later

          19       why these white shirts may be important.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  He is on the pavement, I think it's a he, again the face

          22       is blocked out.

          23   A.  In the white t-shirt, sir?

          24   Q.  Yes.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            43
 

 

 


           1   Q.  He -- we can see from other photographs, he's got

           2       a camera.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  I'm going to put one to you on this one, in case we have

           5       got it right; is it Q63?

           6   A.  I believe that's his cipher, sir, yes.  Again, I cannot

           7       be certain but it appears to be.

           8   Q.  Do you want to look -- there's a list there.

           9   A.  Sorry, sir, I don't mean the name, I cannot be

          10       100 per cent from the picture.  I know who Q63 is and

          11       I would tend to agree with you there, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  He's the one who had a camera?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Now, this is obviously, we have said, in time, later.

          15       There's somebody standing -- well, can we just draw back

          16       on this picture again.  There's somebody standing on the

          17       grass.  It looks like -- is it a uniformed officer by

          18       this stage or you don't know?  On the grass, sorry.

          19   A.  It looks like a uniformed CO19 officer, one of the

          20       marked ARV officers, I would say, sir.

          21   Q.  Right.  Uniformed CO19, right.

          22   A.  That's my best guess, sir.

          23   Q.  Of course, in this situation -- I am going to call it

          24       a cordon sanitaire, but you know what I mean.  In other

          25       words, you seal off an area so that things don't get


                                            44
 

 

 


           1       disturbed; that's routine, isn't it?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  Who takes charge of the scene before anyone else

           4       arrives?

           5   A.  I would say Z51, the TFC, is in charge until anybody

           6       takes over.

           7   Q.  Right.  The way you do it often, if you've got some tape

           8       with you, you tape off areas and if you haven't got tape

           9       you just put officers in the way of others getting

          10       anywhere near the scene.

          11   A.  Yes, sir.  To start with it just tends to be officers

          12       and then if some tape can be found or uniformed officers

          13       arrive who have some tape things kind of settle down

          14       a bit.

          15   Q.  Z51, who you think is in this photograph, he had been in

          16       the control car with you, hadn't he?

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  I don't think you have actually indicated where you were

          19       all sitting.  Could you just kindly tell us how -- when

          20       you were in the control car, going to this scene, you

          21       were in the back, I think?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.  There was a driver.  V59, the leader of the

          23       firearms team was in the front nearside, front passenger

          24       seat.  I was behind him in the near rearside, the rear

          25       passenger side seat, if you like, and Z51 was behind the


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       driver.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So in our jury bundle, the thinner

           3       one, if you look at page 6 of that, behind divide 1,

           4       we've got --

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's right.  V72 is the driver --

           7   A.  Okay.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- V59, as you confirm, is the front

           9       seat passenger; Z51 is the rear seat passenger but

          10       behind the driver --

          11   A.  That's right, sir, yes.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and you are behind the passenger.

          13       Thank you.

          14   MR MANSFIELD:  Now, that's the scene, as we have just

          15       depicted, and you have identified various people.

          16       I want to pull back all together for a moment and just

          17       get your help, if you wouldn't mind.

          18   A.  Of course, sir.

          19   Q.  If it becomes too difficult, I'm sure you will indicate

          20       you can't answer or whatever.

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  But this involves looking at some documents alongside

          23       each other.  There's a jury bundle you've just been

          24       looking at there?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            46
 

 

 


           1   Q.  If you and the jury and the Coroner would kindly look at

           2       C9, C9 is the A10 information.

           3           Meanwhile, I wonder if a statement you made --

           4       I will just pause.  Have you got the A10 information

           5       sheet?

           6   A.  I've got that, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  Then you also made a statement very recently --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- the 20th of this current month.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Do you have that in front of you?

          12   A.  Yes, I do, sir.

          13   Q.  Now, for these purposes, a particular page, so it's

          14       easier for you to follow and also for the jury, it's

          15       CD32782.

          16   A.  I don't have those references, I'm afraid.

          17   Q.  No, sorry, you don't.  It's page 6 of the statement.

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  That deals with something which happened on the 4th.

          20       Before we get to the 4th, can I just go back to C9 --

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  -- and if you just keep the other statement in mind for

          23       the moment --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  -- your gisted notes are so gisted that actually it's


                                            47
 

 

 


           1       very difficult to tell what you actually knew; is that

           2       right?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  Is that fair?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Taking it bit by bit, you have been through this but

           7       there are particular questions I want to ask you in

           8       relation to each of these, if you can help.

           9   A.  I'll try, sir.

          10   Q.  They are very much the same question, but it starts on

          11       31 July; do you remember when on that day you received

          12       the credible information?

          13   A.  Sir, I don't believe I did receive it on 31 July.

          14   Q.  Sorry, you got it on the Monday because it was a Sunday?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  When on the Monday did you get it?

          17   A.  I'm afraid I cannot be certain, sir.  I think probably

          18       later on in the day but I cannot really be certain.

          19   Q.  Right.  Do you ever record when you receive

          20       intelligence?

          21   A.  No, sir.

          22   Q.  Why not?

          23   A.  I just never have, sir.

          24   Q.  No, I think you appreciate the reason, do you, here is

          25       that it might be quite important to know when you


                                            48
 

 

 


           1       received something because you're dealing with a number

           2       of different instances, if I can say, in any one day; is

           3       that fair?

           4   A.  Yes, very much so, sir.  Obviously, the nature of the

           5       intelligence that I was receiving restricts what I can

           6       do with that intelligence.

           7   Q.  Yes, I understand that.  This is just a question of,

           8       "I received it" and even a bracket of time.

           9   A.  Yes, I can see with hindsight, sir, maybe that would be

          10       helpful.  It's nothing I've ever done.

          11   Q.  You've never done it?  All right.  So it may be that all

          12       the way through this applies but it may not.  Can we

          13       just move down to the 2nd, so we're now on Tuesday, the

          14       2nd.  You received intelligence of two kinds, and you

          15       said you did receive all this intelligence.

          16           Once again, can you help with the timings on that

          17       day?

          18   A.  Sorry, sir, you have lost me slightly there.

          19   Q.  It's all right, sorry.  I've moved from the 1st --

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  -- on this document C9, I am dealing with the 2nd now.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  Again, two segments of information/intelligence on the

          24       2nd.  You said you did receive them but the question

          25       again is really whether you can help us as to when you


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       received it.

           2   A.  I think if I can put it this way, sir: I was receiving

           3       intelligence all the time throughout the day --

           4   Q.  Yes.

           5   A.  -- and the intelligence identifying Kevin

           6       Hutchinson-Foster didn't come at a particular time that

           7       at 2.10 I now knew who he was.  It was more of a gradual

           8       process of the research that was being conducted and the

           9       intelligence that was being received.

          10   Q.  I understand the process and I'll come back to this

          11       because I'm obviously coming to the 4th in a moment,

          12       just running through this.  Can we move to the 3rd?

          13       This is the day -- looking at the A10 document --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- this is now the Wednesday.

          16   A.  That's right, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  This is the day on which you have the briefing.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  The briefing happens -- not the precise time -- it

          20       happens in the evening at 6 o'clock?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  What I do want to know on this particular day is what of

          23       this intelligence did you know before the briefing?

          24   A.  Yes, I understand, sir.

          25   Q.  So can you help us?


                                            50
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  If I could maybe just take it through here.

           2   Q.  Just take your time.  Look at it and then we can mark

           3       those bits you didn't know and those you did know.

           4   A.  Yes.  So on -- it says in the middle of this page, sir:

           5           "On 3 August I received further intelligence that

           6       Mark Duggan still wished to collect the firearm from the

           7       male, whom I now believed to be Kevin

           8       Hutchinson-Foster."

           9           I certainly had all that before the briefing.

          10           "There was still insufficient intelligence to

          11       identify where the firearm was being stored beyond the

          12       premises of the female associate probably in the Leyton

          13       area."

          14           Yes.

          15   Q.  Before the briefing?

          16   A.  Yes:

          17           "The intelligence indicated that

          18       Kevin Hutchinson-Foster intended to travel out of London

          19       later that evening."

          20           I don't believe so.

          21   Q.  Well, just pause.  So when do you think you received

          22       that?  We are now onto this sentence:

          23           "The intelligence indicated that Kevin

          24       Hutchinson-Foster intended to travel out of London ..."

          25           When did you receive it?


                                            51
 

 

 


           1   A.  I am not certain, sir.  I don't believe that I knew that

           2       at the time of the briefing, so after the briefing.

           3   Q.  Right.  Well, I'll have to come back to this but would

           4       you just try to bear in mind that's what you think about

           5       this sentence.

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  Then it's got:

           8           ""I ..."

           9           That's not you, that's A10:

          10           "... subsequently received intelligence that

          11       indicated that Mark Duggan wouldn't be in a position to

          12       collect the firearm."

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  You have agreed you got it but --

          15   A.  After the briefing, sir.

          16   Q.  After the briefing --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  -- but when after the briefing?

          19   A.  I couldn't be certain, I'm afraid.  At some point during

          20       the course of the evening.

          21   Q.  Then the sentences starting with "The intelligence

          22       indicated" onwards come after the briefing but at the

          23       moment you cannot say when precisely?

          24   A.  Sorry sir, could you say that again?

          25   Q.  Yes.  The passage in this paragraph starting with the


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       words "The intelligence indicated" down to "barbeque" --

           2   A.  Yes, I have that.

           3   Q.  -- you get after the briefing, you think?

           4   A.  I think that's fair, sir, yes.

           5   Q.  You think that's fair?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  The next bit which is:

           8           "The intelligence throughout the period indicated

           9       that he was going to store it at [that is Duggan]

          10       unidentified premises."

          11           You did know that?

          12   A.  I think, yes, throughout this, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Throughout?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  Now I want to come to the 4th and I want to take this

          16       a little more carefully.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Because there is a time here, which is 5.10 to 5.15,

          19       A10:

          20           "... received intelligence that Duggan would be

          21       imminently travelling" --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- "by minicab to Vicarage Road in Leyton to collect the

          24       firearm."

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            53
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Now, that's -- just pausing there.  First of all, is

           2       that what was communicated to you; do you follow that?

           3   A.  Yes, I think that's right, sir, yes.

           4   Q.  Was it even more specific than that?  (Pause)

           5   A.  In what way, sir, sorry?

           6   Q.  Well, had you heard of Burchell Road at that point?

           7   A.  No, not at all, sir.

           8   Q.  You are quite sure?

           9   A.  Absolutely positive, sir.

          10   Q.  So it's clear that -- I am pausing here -- you said this

          11       is really the best intelligence you can have.

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  There's a grading system, I don't think the Met use it,

          14       but if there were to be, it's A1, isn't it, if there

          15       were to be a grading system?

          16   A.  Sir, we grade it as B2, we don't really ever grade

          17       anything higher than B2.

          18   Q.  B2, all right.  What I'm going to suggest to you at this

          19       period is -- sorry, can I just reflect: the rest of that

          20       page above it is also B2?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  So, so far, everything you are receiving is in the top

          23       bracket.

          24   A.  Sir, if I could just say on that: the intelligence at

          25       the time I receive it, I would say, is reliable, however


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       the people the intelligence is about aren't always as

           2       reliable as the intelligence, if you see what I mean.

           3   Q.  They don't always do what the intelligence says they

           4       might be doing.

           5   A.  Yes, even if the intelligence were reliable they don't

           6       always do it.

           7   Q.  But of course it's better than no intelligence at all?

           8   A.  Of course, yes.

           9   Q.  You cannot operate on no intelligence so you have to

          10       operate on the intelligence you do have.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  It's all fairly straightforward.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Now, I want you to look at your statement most recently

          15       given to us --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  -- which I asked to be identified at 32782.  There is

          18       a paragraph that begins:

          19           "During my statement of 7 August ..."

          20   A.  Yes, I have that, yes.

          21   Q.  "... I wrote ..."

          22           Then there's a quote from the earlier statement:

          23           "... 'while we were waiting for the surveillance

          24       team to be ready ...'"

          25           So this is on 4 August, not the 7th --


                                            55
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- on the 4th:

           3           "'... I became aware that unarmed Trident support

           4       officers had sighted a minicab [then the number] in the

           5       Leyton area.'"

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  Then you believed:

           8           "'... that this vehicle contained Mark Duggan.'"

           9           Again, that's all a quote from the original

          10       statement.  So you are being asked about that --

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  -- quote.  If you see what you have written there:

          13           "This came about as follows: shortly before 1800,

          14       having dispatched [the three Trident officers] ZZ37,

          15       ZZ75 and ZZ46 to Vicarage Road area ..."

          16           All right?

          17   A.  Yes, sir, I have that.

          18   Q.  "... I received intelligence from SOCA that Mark Duggan

          19       was in the vicinity of Vicarage Road."

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Right.  You are sure about that?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  Right.  Well, you will see that in the information we

          24       have from A10 --

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            56
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- that isn't mentioned.  In your gist, it says:

           2           "Mark Duggan in cab 2, Vicarage Road."

           3           I am not saying you are wrong, I am just putting it

           4       in context; do you follow?

           5   A.  I follow, sir, I'm not sure what you want me to answer.

           6   Q.  What I want to put to you, based on what you have put in

           7       your statement, is that you knew, from SOCA, before the

           8       car was sighted in Vicarage Road by your officers, that

           9       it was in Vicarage Road from SOCA.

          10   MS LEEK:  Sir, so that there should be no mystery about

          11       this, A10 will give evidence that he passed that

          12       information on but for some reason he didn't put it into

          13       his statement.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

          15   MS LEEK:  That was probably oversight, but just so there is

          16       no mystery about this.

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  I am most grateful, but we have been asking

          18       for this for some time.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  I just want to continue.  Therefore, I'm

          21       going to suggest to you that what you really had here

          22       coming from SOCA was a running commentary on the

          23       movement of Mr Duggan, wasn't it?

          24   A.  Sir, I think I perhaps need to be careful how I answer

          25       that question.


                                            57
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I am putting it in very general careful terms.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  Would it be the equivalent to a running commentary?

           4   A.  I'm sorry, sir, I am not quite sure how I can answer

           5       that question lawfully.

           6   Q.  This was a very contemporaneous indication to you from

           7       a reliable source -- that's A10 --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- of what was happening before it happened.

          10   A.  Sir, I am not trying to be difficult here.  I'm sure you

          11       understand that legally my hands are bound somewhat in

          12       what I can and can't say.  The form of words that's in

          13       my statement is what I've been said I can say.  I'm sure

          14       you would like me to go further, it would be helpful to

          15       me if I could go much further, but I am not quite sure

          16       what I can and can't say yet.

          17   Q.  I'll make it clear why I am asking the questions.

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  It's to do with how this could have been planned in

          20       a way that prevented a hard stop on a main road near

          21       a bus stop; do you follow?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  Because -- I'll pause for a moment.  Your approach to

          24       this whole matter, working within Trident, is, as far as

          25       you're concerned -- and I think you have put it in this


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       very recent statement, in fact -- it's to get the

           2       firearms.  That's the prime objective, isn't it?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  The way you have put it is that you don't want to wait

           5       and catch somebody red-handed, that might be

           6       an advantage.  The real thing is getting the firearms,

           7       wherever they are --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- whoever's got them?

          10   A.  Yes.  If I knew where the firearm was before Mr Duggan

          11       had it, I would have sought to get the gun off the

          12       street before he had it, but I didn't know, sir.

          13   Q.  I'll come back to that.  I appreciate hindsight is

          14       a wonderful thing and I am not trying to suggest to you

          15       that it all has to be done with hindsight.

          16           All right, well, if -- just one more, as it were,

          17       part in the jigsaw here.  If you look further down your

          18       statement --

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  -- you will see -- sorry, it isn't into paragraphs so

          21       you have to cast your eye down.  It's six lines up from

          22       the bottom.

          23   A.  Okay.

          24   Q.  "At around this time I received further intelligence."

          25           Can you see that?


                                            59
 

 

 


           1   A.  I have that, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  You have that.  I don't know whether it can be

           3       highlighted -- the jury don't have it -- so you can see

           4       where it is:

           5           "At around this time I then received further

           6       intelligence that indicated that Mark Duggan had taken

           7       possession of a firearm."

           8           Pausing there.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Now, that came from A10?

          11   A.  Yes, it did, sir.

          12   Q.  Right.  So, looking at the A10 document --

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  -- it says:

          15           "Later on the 4th ..."

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  It doesn't have a time.

          18   A.  Okay.

          19   Q.  I can obviously not insert a time and perhaps A10 will

          20       tell us when he comes.

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  But it looks as though, is this fair, the intelligence

          23       on the A10 document is coming to you at around 6 o'clock

          24       in the evening, 1800 hours --

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                            60
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- right, because on the back of that intelligence that

           2       you got from A10 --

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  -- you were able to say to Z51 "He's got the gun".

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  Yes?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  I'm sorry to go through it, it's just trying to put the

           9       jigsaw together.

          10   A.  Sir.  If it assists you with the timing, basically, as

          11       the minicab leaves Burchell Road, it's at about that

          12       time that I receive that intelligence.

          13   Q.  Thank you.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At that time, are you in the back of

          15       your control car heading towards Vicarage Road?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Had you got there a little quicker,

          18       a little sooner, you might have actually been able to

          19       stop Mr Duggan in Vicarage Road, might you?  Have you

          20       worked out how many minutes late you were before you had

          21       to then follow them up Park Road to Ferry Lane?

          22   A.  I have not worked the times out, sir.  I am not sure

          23       what difference it would make, to be honest with you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But anyway you haven't done it.  But

          25       that's what happened, you were going to go --


                                            61
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- if you could spend -- if he had

           3       spent a long time in Vicarage Road and Burchell Road

           4       handing over the gun, talking about the weather or

           5       whatever it may have been, your little team of four cars

           6       would have got there.

           7   A.  Sir, that would not really be a decision for me, that

           8       would be a decision for --

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But you were on the way, weren't

          10       you?

          11   A.  We were on our way there.  Where Z51, the TFC, and where

          12       the firearms team would have thought was a suitable

          13       place to seek to stop the cab, I cannot really say.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are receiving this information

          15       sitting in the back seat of your control car?

          16   A.  Yes, sir, that's right.

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  Obviously, I am going to come back and ask

          18       you whether you considered alternatives, that's why I'm

          19       asking you the questions.

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   Q.  In terms of Z51, you pass the information on and so we

          22       have the traffic lights in place.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  He then, at around 6 o'clock --

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            62
 

 

 


           1   Q.  -- and it's on the jury's timeline so they can fit it

           2       all together if they wish to --

           3   A.  Sorry, where is that timeline, sorry?

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At the back of the jury bundle, the

           5       thinner jury bundle, actually.  The one with the cars

           6       that you have been looking at.

           7   A.  Thank you.

           8   MR MANSFIELD:  I will just pause while you get the timeline.

           9   A.  Thank you.

          10   MR MANSFIELD:  You may not have seen this before.

          11   A.  I haven't, no.

          12   Q.  If you look at page 5 there is, in fact, a little map at

          13       the top.  That's the route taken by CO19.  But leaving

          14       that for one moment, underneath that, entry number 30,

          15       do you see --

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  -- state amber is called at 6 o'clock.

          18   A.  That sounds about right to me, sir.

          19   Q.  So the person calling it is not you but Z51.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Now, what I want to do, having established therefore,

          22       intelligence coming through, as you have just said, that

          23       he's got the gun -- that's not something seen by

          24       an officer in Vicarage Road, is it?

          25   A.  No, sir.


                                            63
 

 

 


           1   Q.  No.  Now, if you would kindly, I think, look again into

           2       the jury bundle at page 7.

           3   A.  On the timeline is that, sorry?

           4   Q.  No, page 7, another document in there, not the timeline

           5       so much.  That was just placing it so everybody can see

           6       where it fits in.  It's behind your tab 1.

           7   A.  This map, sir, sorry?  (Indicates)

           8   Q.  Yes.  Do you have that?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  I just want to ask you this: when Vicarage Road came

          11       over from A10 at 5.10 -- well, that's when it's coming

          12       over roughly.

          13   A.  5.20 to me, sir.

          14   Q.  Well, 5.20 to you, all right, we'll take that.  Is that

          15       because you estimated later that it was about 5.20 or

          16       you have a record?

          17   A.  It is estimated, sir.

          18   Q.  Estimated.  So as you said, it could have been a few

          19       minutes before.

          20   A.  It could have been, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  I am not fiddle about with minutes, obviously: around

          22       that period.  When it came through to you in the

          23       Wood Green Quicksilver control base --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  -- did you know where Vicarage Road was yourself?


                                            64
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I was told it was in Leyton, sir, but I am not

           2       familiar with the area, no.

           3   Q.  You see, ZZ35 -- he hasn't yet come to give evidence --

           4   A.  37, sir.

           5   Q.  -- goes to Vicarage Road knowing the area; did you know

           6       where he parked up?

           7   A.  No, sir.

           8   Q.  Well, if you look at that plan -- and again I cannot

           9       pre-empt what he may eventually say -- but what he

          10       appears to be saying so far is that he parked -- it's

          11       a one-way street going from top to bottom on the plan.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Do you see where the arrows are?

          14   A.  Yes, sir.

          15   Q.  That's actually describing the route but, in fact, it is

          16       one-way down there, we've been to have a look.  Now,

          17       ZZ37 appears to park just before the junction with

          18       Sophia Road; do you see that?

          19   A.  I see Sophia Road, yes.

          20   Q.  One road away from Burchell.

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  Vicarage Road is a very long road.

          23   A.  Okay, sir.

          24   Q.  You can look at it on the plan, we have an A to Z.

          25   A.  I will take your word for it.


                                            65
 

 

 


           1   Q.  It's an exaggeration to say "very long"; it's a long

           2       road.  Do you know how he knew where to park?

           3   A.  If that's where he parked, sir.  I didn't know where he

           4       parked.

           5   Q.  You see, it's just one road from Burchell Road and it's

           6       just where the taxi comes by in order to turn, or not

           7       turn, depending on how the evidence pans out --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- into Burchell Road.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  You didn't tell him to park there in Sophia -- just

          12       before Sophia Road?  You didn't tell him to park there

          13       in Vicarage Road?

          14   A.  When he first went to Vicarage Road, sir, no.

          15   Q.  Or at all.  Did he ever tell him Burchell Road?

          16   A.  Again, sir, I am not quite sure how I can answer that

          17       question without seeking some advice.  I don't mean to

          18       be difficult, sir.

          19   Q.  No, I'm sure you don't, please forgive me.  I'm trying

          20       to be careful and I am not trying to entrap you or get

          21       you to say something you don't want to say.

          22   A.  As I say, sir, the more I can say the easier my life is

          23       but I don't want to say something that I shouldn't.

          24   Q.  Me too, officer.  Again, so it's clear to you why I'm

          25       asking you these questions, it is -- I'll come straight


                                            66
 

 

 


           1       to the point now so you see where I'm going, it's not

           2       with you particularly -- is the question of mounting

           3       an interception of this car, if it was known to be in

           4       Burchell Road right there in this vicinity; do you

           5       follow?

           6   A.  I follow, sir.

           7   Q.  Right.  Now, that's why I am asking whether, in fact,

           8       the truth of the matter is somebody knew that the

           9       handover, if there was going to be one, was actually

          10       going to be in Burchell Road.  Now, I would like the

          11       answer to that question, if there's an objection perhaps

          12       we can deal with it in another way.  Do you have

          13       difficulty with that question?

          14   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  I wonder if --

          16   A.  It may be that it can be resolved simply but --

          17   MR MANSFIELD:  I wonder if I could have a moment to resolve

          18       this --

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  -- by perhaps addressing you upon it in the

          21       absence of the jury?  I'm sorry to have to do it this

          22       way.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let me just wait a moment.  (Pause)

          24   MR MANSFIELD:  Did you direct ZZ37 to where to park before

          25       the minicab went into Burchell Road?


                                            67
 

 

 


           1   MS LEEK:  Sir, I am not sure the witness can answer that

           2       question.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I would have thought he can.  You

           4       try it and see what happens.

           5   A.  Sir, I'm being very careful.  I know you are too.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I also have a duty --

           7   MR KEITH:  Sorry to rise to my feet, it puts the witness in

           8       a very difficult position because he has just heard my

           9       learned friend speak on behalf of SOCA and say "Caution"

          10       and then, sir, if I may say so, your request is likely

          11       to be given a great deal of weight --

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's why I made it.

          13   MR KEITH:  -- and puts the witness in a slightly difficult

          14       position.  I think the best course is, as Mr Mansfield

          15       has suggested, perhaps to address you in the absence of

          16       the jury.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sure you will be quite happy to

          18       have a mid-afternoon break, members of the jury.  So

          19       what I will do is ask for the cameras then to be turned

          20       off upstairs please, and then if you, members of the

          21       jury, would like to go with the jury bailiff for

          22       a ten-minute/quarter of an hour break.


          25   (3.35 pm)


                                            68
 

 

 


           1

           2
               ZZ17 (affirmed) ......................................1
           3
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................1
           4
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD .......................38
           5

           6

           7

           8

           9

          10

          11

          12

          13

          14

          15

          16

          17

          18

          19

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                            69