Transcript of the Hearing 24 October 2013

 

                                                         Thursday, 24 October 2013


           1   (10.07 am)

           4                  (In the presence of the jury)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

           6       jury, for coming in earlier and being available.

           7           We're ready now to press on with the witness so

           8       we'll ask the witness to come back into court, please.

           9                         W42 (continued)

          10                   (The witness was anonymised)

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Have a seat,

          12       please, good to see you again.  You are still under the

          13       oath that you took yesterday.  Mr Underwood, you had

          14       finished your questions, you had not thought of any

          15       more?

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes, I had.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas then is to ask you

          18       questions, thank you.

          19                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          20   MR THOMAS:  Good morning W42, my name is Mr Thomas,

          21       I represent the loved ones of Mark Duggan, okay?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  This whole incident must have been very difficult for

          24       you, having been shot by one of your colleagues; would

          25       that be fair?


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           1   A.  Not difficult, sir.  "Different" would be the word but

           2       not difficult.

           3   Q.  Unheard of?

           4   A.  Quite so, yes.

           5   Q.  It was unheard of within the Met -- you understand the

           6       expression "blue on blue"?

           7   A.  I do, sir, yes.

           8   Q.  It was unheard of for there to have been a blue on blue

           9       incident within the Met; it had never happened before?

          10   A.  To the nature of what mine was, sir, yes, but many of

          11       the jobs we were involved in that is an inherent risk.

          12   Q.  I appreciate it is a risk but it had never happened

          13       before, had it?

          14   A.  To my knowledge, no, sir.

          15   Q.  You went to hospital?

          16   A.  That's correct, yes.

          17   Q.  You would have had to have given a history to the

          18       hospital in relation to how you sustained your injuries.

          19   A.  I didn't as such.  It was given by the paramedics that

          20       booked me in at the time.

          21   Q.  Sure.  But you would have had to have given a history to

          22       the paramedics because they weren't there, they didn't

          23       know what happened; do you follow?

          24   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  Obviously your medical notes are your privileged medical


                                            33
 

 

 


           1       notes.  Are you prepared to disclose privilege so we can

           2       look at your medical notes to see what you said about

           3       the incident?  It's a matter for you.

           4   A.  Is that the notes from yesterday, sir?

           5   Q.  Your medical notes in relation to what the account you

           6       gave in relation to how you sustained your injuries.

           7       That is a matter for you but it's something that you can

           8       disclose, should you so wish.

           9   A.  I've actually not seen that document, sir, so --

          10   Q.  Would you like to see them and then make a decision?

          11   A.  I would if possible, yes, please.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What did we see yesterday?  Those

          13       were medical notes in part, were they not?

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Those were the notes taken by the doctor who

          15       attended at Leman Street Police Station who examined, as

          16       I understand it, all of the officers who were involved

          17       on the day.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that to which you refer?

          19   MR THOMAS:  No, no, no.  There's a difference.  The medical

          20       notes that we saw yesterday was the FME, that's, in the

          21       old jargon, the police doctor at the police station,

          22       correct?

          23   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          24   Q.  I am not talking about those medical notes because you

          25       went to the hospital, correct?


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           1   A.  Correct, yes.

           2   Q.  So the medical notes that I'm referring to are the

           3       medical notes at the hospital because, often times, when

           4       you have an injury and you go to a hospital, you have to

           5       give a history in relation to what happened to you; do

           6       you follow?

           7   A.  I do, sir, yes.

           8   Q.  You say you have not seen your medical notes.  I'm

           9       asking you -- obviously you need to see your own medical

          10       notes, but I'm asking you would you have a problem in

          11       relation to -- I do not want to pry into your medical

          12       history, just in relation to this incident -- what you

          13       told the doctors or the paramedics; would you be

          14       prepared to disclose that?

          15   A.  If upon seeing it, then if happy, yes, sir.  But I have

          16       never actually seen that document.

          17   Q.  Let's put that on the shelf then and we'll come back to

          18       that later on.

          19   A.  Okay.

          20   Q.  I'm going to move on with my questions.

          21           I wonder if we could put up CD19, which is your

          22       evidence and action book.  This was the account you gave

          23       when you -- at Leman Street when you got back there --

          24   A.  That's correct, yes.

          25   Q.  -- later on in the evening, yes?


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           1   A.  That's correct, yes.

           2   Q.  Take it from me that your evidence and action book runs

           3       to seven sentences in total.  I've counted them.

           4   A.  Okay, sir.

           5   Q.  Are you prepared to accept that --

           6   A.  I accept that, yes.

           7   Q.  -- or shall we count them together?

           8   A.  No, that's fine.  I accept that, sir.

           9   Q.  Just one or two things about your arrival back at the

          10       police station.  Firstly this: can you recall what time

          11       you arrived back at the police station?

          12   A.  I can't recall, no, sir.  I know that I did write

          13       a statement with a timeline.  If I may refer to it, if

          14       it's in that statement, however, asking -- I cannot

          15       recall what time I got back.

          16   Q.  All right.  Do you have that statement with you?

          17   A.  I believe so, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  You fish it out and have a look at it and see if it

          19       assists us.

          20   A.  (Pause).

          21           I've got that part of the statement, sir.

          22   Q.  Just help us, if you have timings in relation to when

          23       you went to the hospital, when you got back from

          24       hospital, when you arrived at the police station, can

          25       you just assist the court with that, please?


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           1   A.  The timings I've got at the moment, I'll read it out if

           2       that's okay.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.  You read it out and

           4       then you tell us the date of the statement you are

           5       referring to.

           6   A.  The date of the statement is 23/08/2012.

           7   MR THOMAS:  So about a year later?

           8   A.  It was, yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The timings there are what?

          10   A.  The first one I've got:

          11           "On this date [obviously 4 August], I left the scene

          12       in an ambulance, the call sign of which I'm uncertain.

          13       I do not recall what time I left the scene but the LAS

          14       Computer Aided Dispatch computer readout stated that the

          15       ambulance left the scene at 18.51.

          16           "According to this LAS CAD, myself and W56 arrived

          17       at Homerton Hospital."

          18           Again, that was a confusion with the CAD, they've

          19       got 18.51 for that time as well, and that's taken from

          20       theirs.  That's the time that it's obviously stated on

          21       their computer dispatch but I've stated I cannot

          22       remember what time that was myself, sir.

          23   MR THOMAS:  In any event, just to put that in context, if

          24       you left the scene, Ferry Lane, Tottenham area, at about

          25       18.51 -- Homerton is in Hackney, isn't it?


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           1   A.  I believe so, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Whatever it takes -- do you remember if the ambulance

           3       was on its blues and twos?

           4   A.  It wasn't, sir.  There was a discussion between the two

           5       paramedics and that wasn't --

           6   Q.  All right.  So it's whatever time it would take at that

           7       time in the evening to get from Tottenham to Hackney?

           8   A.  Correct, sir.

           9   Q.  Continue.

          10   A.  "Once discharged from the hospital, myself and W56 were

          11       met by a marked Trojan unit who had been sent as

          12       a hospital guard."

          13           I've got "no details" -- this is again through

          14       questioning that I received:

          15           "No details of the incident were discussed.  A short

          16       time later myself and W56 were picked up by W21.  We

          17       were then driven back to Leman Street.  I cannot

          18       remember what time we arrived back at the base."

          19           So apologies for that.  That is a statement that was

          20       written but I have not got what time I arrived back at

          21       Leman Street.

          22   Q.  It doesn't help in relation to the question I asked?

          23   A.  It doesn't help, no, sorry.  I thought it might have

          24       been in there but it's not.

          25   Q.  No problem, let me continue.  Can you assist us with


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           1       this: once you got back at the police station, is that

           2       when you saw the FME?

           3   A.  It's not, sir, no.  That was some time later.

           4   Q.  I wonder if we can just call up the FME -- that's the

           5       medical record we looked at yesterday, which is the

           6       police doctor's record.  Can we call that up.  Can we

           7       just check to see if there's a timing on that.  I cannot

           8       see it from here.

           9   A.  Yes, it's just in the middle.  You've got the time

          10       I would have sat down, the time that the FME has begun

          11       writing, as such, and then the --

          12   Q.  Can you read it out because my eyesight is appalling?

          13   A.  Time of arrival, I think it's 2250 and then the next box

          14       it says "Began at", that's 2251, and then "concluded at

          15       2258", I believe that is, sir.

          16   Q.  The one thing we do know is for that about, what's that

          17       seven or eight minutes, something like that, just before

          18       11 o'clock, you're seeing the police doctor, the

          19       forensic medical examiner?

          20   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  Can you help me with this: had you been at the police

          22       station -- I think this is what you were indicating,

          23       just confirm it or deny it -- had you been at the police

          24       station for some time before you saw the police doctor?

          25   A.  I was, yes.  I can't be accurate on the time but, yes,


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           1       I had been engaged in other activities at the police

           2       station prior to seeing the FME.

           3   Q.  What sort of activities?

           4   A.  The first thing, sir, when I got in was to have a shower

           5       and a change of clothing.

           6   Q.  Then?

           7   A.  Once after that, I obviously made my way to the TST crew

           8       room, where upon I've seen the rest of my colleagues, and

           9       between that time there were meetings with a lot of

          10       other people, sir, but I could not tell you in which

          11       order or at what time they were.

          12   Q.  Would I be right in thinking that you would have seen

          13       your legal advisor as well?

          14   A.  On that night?  Yes, sir.

          15   Q.  You would have seen somebody from the Police Federation?

          16   A.  Correct, yes.

          17   Q.  The one thing we can be clear about is, although we

          18       don't know the precise time you arrived back at the

          19       police station, there was sufficient time for you to

          20       shower, change, take advice, have meetings with

          21       colleagues who had previously been at the scene, and

          22       have legal advice?  Is that a fair summary?

          23   A.  Apart from the meetings with the other officers, it

          24       wasn't as such a meeting, sir, it was -- we were all in

          25       the one place, which was our crew room.


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           1   Q.  Well, you met up with the other officers?

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  Yes.  We can see that your doctor's examination finished

           4       at 10.58.  Can we just go down, on that document, to

           5       what the doctor had written.  Again, this was read out

           6       to you yesterday and you remember this being read out to

           7       you by Mr Underwood?

           8   A.  I do, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  I think you accept the following: you were present with

          10       the doctor on your own?

          11   A.  I was, yes.

          12   Q.  The doctor wasn't present at the scene, was she?

          13   A.  She wasn't, no.

          14   Q.  At that point in time, the only information the doctor

          15       could have -- and this is in relation to the history

          16       because --

          17           The only information the doctor could have in

          18       relation to the history of the incident could only have

          19       come from you?

          20   A.  Correct, yes.

          21   Q.  Were you aware, or did you become aware, that it had

          22       been distributed in the media that night and shortly

          23       afterwards that Mark Duggan had shot at a police

          24       officer; were you aware of that?

          25   A.  On the night -- I can't remember or can't recall, sir,


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           1       whether that actually came out on the Thursday evening

           2       or it actually came out on the Friday.

           3   Q.  All right, but you know what I'm talking about?

           4   A.  Oh, yes, after the incident, yes, I'm aware of the

           5       press --

           6   Q.  So after the incident it was put out in the media that

           7       Mark Duggan had shot at a police officer; you remember

           8       that?

           9   A.  I do, yes.

          10   Q.  We now know that not to be true.

          11   A.  That's correct, as I did on the night as well, sir.

          12   Q.  Pause there.  Can you explain, can you offer us any

          13       explanation, why this doctor, who has two of the facts

          14       correct, has got this so badly wrong that you say that

          15       the suspect had shot at you?

          16   A.  I can't say as -- I said yesterday -- I mean, I have

          17       seen this form as well and, upon looking at it, there

          18       were many things that could have been said, how it could

          19       read.  Again, it would need to be the doctor herself and

          20       obviously it's not the best of handwriting.

          21   Q.  Some might say that's not bad for a doctor.

          22   A.  For a doctor's handwriting, yes.  It's not something

          23       that I would have said, sir, because, as I stated

          24       yesterday, I was happy at that time that Mark Duggan had

          25       not shot at us.


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           1   Q.  Can I be clear on this because you say you didn't know

           2       who shot at you.

           3   A.  That was -- yes, in context to which officer had fired,

           4       that was, sir.

           5   Q.  You see, I just want to put this in a timeline, if

           6       I may.

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   Q.  You had seen the doctor before you and the rest of your

           9       colleagues had got together to write your notes up.

          10       That took place after the doctor's meeting; that much is

          11       right, isn't it?

          12   A.  After the doctor, I wrote my initial account?  I think

          13       that, looking at the timeline, yes, that is correct.

          14   Q.  Yes.  You see, one thing that we do know, from all the

          15       other officers who have given evidence in relation to

          16       this, your colleagues, they all say that they went down

          17       to that room in Leman Street, where you were all present

          18       together, from about 11.00-ish and, between 11.00-ish

          19       and 12.00-ish, midnight, that's when they were sitting

          20       down together writing up their notes; that's correct,

          21       isn't it?

          22   A.  Yes, sir, I would say that's correct, judging on that

          23       timeline.

          24   Q.  All except V53, the shooter?

          25   A.  Correct, sir, yes.


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           1   Q.  Am I right in thinking that, by the time you got back to

           2       the police station, you had been checked out, you were

           3       okay -- I don't suggest for one moment that you weren't

           4       shaken up about what happened previously, I don't make

           5       that suggestion --

           6   A.  That's all right, sir.

           7   Q.  -- because you were shot by a colleague, yes?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  All right.  But by the time you came to write your

          10       statement, your initial account, you felt able to write

          11       your initial account because you could have said

          12       "I don't feel able to write my initial account",

          13       couldn't you?

          14   A.  That's entirely correct, sir, but -- enable -- to help

          15       the investigation, I knew that that was what I wanted to

          16       do.

          17   Q.  Yes, but just so we're absolutely crystal clear about

          18       this, you are not using as an excuse, are you, the fact

          19       that you had been shot, to say that you were somehow

          20       unable to write your initial account, before I go on

          21       with my questions?

          22   A.  No, sir, no.

          23   Q.  No.  You had been checked out, thankfully you are

          24       uninjured, you could have refused, but you wanted to

          25       help the investigation; is that right?


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           1   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Now, do you remember a moment ago I said to you that

           3       your initial account ran to some seven sentences?

           4   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

           5   Q.  Can we just call that up, please?  I just want you to

           6       help me with this.  If we look on the page -- just bear

           7       with me -- 22, at the top, and just go right into the

           8       top, your notes -- you don't start your notes until

           9       23.30.

          10   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          11   Q.  Can you help us, because we know that the officers

          12       congregated at 11 o'clock and they were together in that

          13       room, why did you start your notes half an hour in; can

          14       you help us?

          15   A.  Yes.  Having finished with the doctor, I then spoke to

          16       several people.  The doctor was on the 4th floor at

          17       Leman Street.  I can't remember exactly who it was but

          18       I believe it was members from the IPCC and DPS.  They

          19       were present within another office and, as I had come

          20       out of the office with the doctor, I do remember

          21       speaking to them, sort of in the stairwell prior to

          22       going back down to the office.

          23           So despite everyone else had started, I was

          24       obviously late coming to the station, hence whilst I was

          25       the last to see the doctor, but I did have several talks


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           1       with other people prior to then going back into the

           2       office when the others had started.

           3   Q.  So your explanation is "I started later than the

           4       others"?

           5   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  Let's call up, please, CS129.  This is your EAB but this

           7       is the typed version because it's just easier to follow.

           8   A.  Okay.

           9   Q.  Sorry, 125.  If you just follow it with me I'll read it

          10       so the jury have this.  So sentence number 1:

          11           "On Thursday 4 August 2011, I was on duty plain

          12       clothes assigned as 2IC (second in charge) of [blank] on

          13       [blank]."

          14   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  Nothing controversial about that?

          16   A.  Nothing at all, sir.

          17   Q.  Second sentence:

          18           "On this day I was tasked with stopping a people

          19       carrier motor vehicle [registration number] the occupant

          20       of which was believed to be in possession of a gun."

          21           That's the second sentence.

          22   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  I note you got the detail of the registration number in

          24       there.  It's a fairly uncontroversial sentence; would

          25       you agree?


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           1   A.  Yes, sir.

           2   Q.  I also note you don't have the colour of the vehicle

           3       there.

           4   A.  Correct, sir, no.

           5   Q.  Why have you put the registration but not the colour?

           6   A.  At the time, sir, writing it, of the facts of the stop,

           7       I believe that the registration was a bit more of

           8       an important detail as to the vehicle rather than its

           9       colour.

          10   Q.  Did you know the colour?

          11   A.  I did, yes.

          12   Q.  What was the colour?

          13   A.  It was described -- in my detailed statement two days

          14       later, I described the colour as "bronze" as that is the

          15       description we were given -- the description I was

          16       given, as such, as the Alpha operator, over the radio by

          17       the surveillance team.

          18   Q.  I thought the Alpha operator and on the flip chart it

          19       was described as "gold"?

          20   A.  Say, again, sorry, the Alpha operator?

          21   Q.  I thought the description was "gold"?

          22   A.  My description is "bronze".

          23   Q.  I know your description is "bronze", I may have got that

          24       wrong but I thought the description that everybody was

          25       given was "gold"?


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           1   A.  Not to me, sir.  "Bronze" is what I have stated

           2       throughout my detailed statement.  That is because

           3       that's what I heard on the surveillance channel on the

           4       day.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where did you get the registration

           6       number from to write down in your notebook?

           7   A.  It was, sir, yes, the registration was given obviously

           8       at the time.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  While you were writing your notes,

          10       was it written up on a board somewhere?

          11   A.  No, honestly, sir, I remembered it.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You remembered it?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   MR THOMAS:  Can I just follow that up?  You have just been

          15       shot, you have been to hospital, you must have had 100

          16       things on your mind about how lucky you were, or is that

          17       unfair?

          18   A.  No, that's correct, sir.

          19   Q.  You're saying that, as a police officer, you're dealing

          20       with incidents all the time, vehicles all the time, you

          21       managed to remember the registration number?

          22   A.  For one fact only, sir, in that, on the way to stopping

          23       this vehicle, and it's something I do as the operator of

          24       the Alpha vehicle, is I write the registration of that

          25       car down, the description that's been given and it's


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           1       stuck on a Post-it note in the middle of my vehicle for

           2       the rest of my car to see.  I was staring at that

           3       registration from a good time of leaving Quicksilver to

           4       when we stopped that car.

           5           I was quite happy, sir, that registrations -- and

           6       it's something in the police force you are well-versed

           7       in doing -- it's something that I could remember at the

           8       time.

           9   Q.  Let's move on.  So you are pretty sure that you can

          10       remember that, something that you wouldn't have got

          11       wrong, so you have put that down.

          12           When you're at the scene, how many shots were fired?

          13   A.  There was two shots fired, sir.

          14   Q.  How do you know it was two shots fired?

          15   A.  I knew there was two shots fired.

          16   Q.  There was no doubt in your mind there were two shots

          17       fired?

          18   A.  Playing back how it did in my mind, sir, no.

          19   Q.  Let's read on in your witness statement, sentence number

          20       three:

          21           "I was armed with my personal issue Glock ... which

          22       was loaded and holstered and my personal issue MP5 ...

          23       which was in condition one."

          24           What's "condition one"?

          25   A.  "Condition one" means the weapon is loaded and ready to


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       fire.

           2   Q.  So that is sentence number 3, relatively

           3       uncontroversial; would you agree?

           4   A.  I agree, sir.

           5   Q.  Sentence number 4:

           6           "The vehicle was stopped in Ferry Lane, N17."

           7   A.  Correct, yes.

           8   Q.  Again, relatively uncontroversial?

           9   A.  Correct, yes.

          10   Q.  So far, in relation to this incident and a man --

          11       because you knew Mr Duggan was dead by the time you were

          12       writing this note, correct?

          13   A.  I did, yes.

          14   Q.  You knew Mr Duggan was dead, you knew that you had been

          15       shot, you knew that that had not happened before in the

          16       Metropolitan Police, this is your initial account and,

          17       so far, we have got to sentence number 4 and you have

          18       not really said anything much; would you agree?

          19   A.  To that point, no.

          20   Q.  No.  So let's look at the last three sentences.

          21       Sentence number 5:

          22           "I was suddenly aware of shots being fired, one of

          23       which, hit me on my left side."

          24           Now, we're getting to some of the meat, right.  Why

          25       haven't you indicated, number one, the number of shots?


                                            50
 

 

 


           1   A.  The reason for the number as such, sir, is that this was

           2       my initial account, it was my individual recollection of

           3       the facts of that evening.

           4   Q.  No, it's not.  You just told us that your individual

           5       recollection was you were sure there were two shots

           6       fired.  That's what you just told the jury.

           7   A.  I was, sir, I was very happy there was two shots fired.

           8       However, at this point in writing, in my mind I was

           9       happy that I'm writing down the facts of that evening.

          10   Q.  No you're not.  Forgive me, Officer for cavilling with

          11       you, arguing with you on this point, but you just told

          12       us that you were sure in your mind that the shots that

          13       were fired were two.  So I'm asking you, if you were

          14       sure of that, why not put that in your witness

          15       statement?

          16   A.  Because I put -- sorry, just to get the correct wording.

          17       I put:

          18           "I was suddenly aware of shots being fired."

          19           In my mind and my opinion, I covered what I believed

          20       to be true.  Yes, it was two.  However, wanting to go

          21       away, we do have the time to think about it, it was

          22       going through my mind probably more than anyone else

          23       because of what had happened.  I was happy that two

          24       shots had been fired.  However, I know, by not being

          25       specific until the detailed statement, that I thought


                                            51
 

 

 


           1       just putting that shots were fired rather than being

           2       specific in two, that would withstand more scrutiny than

           3       being wrong about the number of shots.

           4   Q.  Why were you specific about the registration number,

           5       exactly the same thought process applies to that?  Help

           6       us.

           7   A.  Other than that was the registration at the time.

           8       I wouldn't see that, if that was the wrong registration,

           9       which I knew it wasn't -- but that's not as specific to

          10       the detail of the shots.  That is something that is more

          11       important than the registration, as such.  It is to me

          12       in what I'm writing in that account.

          13   Q.  Officer, help us with this: you've told us -- and I'm

          14       still on sentence number 5, the sentence with the

          15       meat -- you have told us that you didn't tell the FME --

          16       not less than half an hour before you start to write

          17       this statement, you didn't tell the doctor that the

          18       suspect fired shots at you, right?  That's what you're

          19       telling us?

          20   A.  I am, yes.

          21   Q.  Why does your statement read "I was suddenly aware of

          22       shots being fired ..." with no indication of if you were

          23       aware that shots were fired from a police officer as

          24       opposed to leaving it open and shots possibly being

          25       fired from the suspect?  Help us.


                                            52
 

 

 


           1   A.  Again, sir, this is a recollection of the facts that

           2       happened at the incident.  It's not of going back to the

           3       police station and finding out that only one person

           4       fired, which we obviously knew because that person was

           5       not in the office.

           6           However, my recollection of the events, which I'm

           7       writing there, I am not inferring anything else has been

           8       in my mind.  At the time at the scene, I recall shots

           9       being fired.  I do not know at the scene who it was that

          10       fired: was it one officer, was it two, was it three?  So

          11       I'm being truthful and honest that at the scene I don't

          12       know who fired and how -- well, I know two shots were

          13       fired but I am not being specific because I wasn't sure

          14       at the scene had it been one officer or two officers.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Or three, you just said.

          16   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you mean to say that?

          18   A.  Well, no.  Two officers, sorry.

          19   MR THOMAS:  You see, you have told us that you were

          20       absolutely clear that Mark Duggan hadn't fired; have

          21       I misunderstood that?

          22   A.  Certainly not, sir, no.

          23   Q.  So you must have been absolutely clear it was one of

          24       your colleagues who had fired.

          25   A.  Correct, sir, yes.


                                            53
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Why not say the police opened fire, a colleague opened

           2       fire, a colleague or colleagues opened fire?  Why leave

           3       the suggestion, the smell, in your notebook that Duggan

           4       may have fired?

           5   A.  I disagree with that, sir, because this is not something

           6       that's going to be read or disclosed by someone that

           7       could say that's what happened.

           8   Q.  This is your initial account.

           9   A.  Correct, sir, but if I believed he had have fired, then

          10       I believe that would have been a fact relevant to the

          11       investigation, and I would have put that in that note.

          12   Q.  It's not a fact relevant to the investigation that it

          13       was the police who fired?

          14   A.  I agree with you on that, sir.  I could have written in

          15       there that I was suddenly aware that shots had been

          16       fired by an officer.  I agree with that completely.

          17       However, I also disagree though that it may infer that

          18       I was shot at by Mark Duggan.

          19   Q.  Let me read on.  So that is sentence number 5.  Sentence

          20       number 6 -- forgive me, sorry, just coming back to

          21       sentence number 5.  The one thing you haven't indicated

          22       was you seeing the suspect doing anything before he was

          23       shot or before shots were fired, have you?

          24   A.  I haven't, sir, no.

          25   Q.  Out of all of this statement that you've done, prepared,


                                            54
 

 

 


           1       your initial account, that is the most fundamental thing

           2       that is missing, isn't it?

           3           "He's reaching!"  "Shots fired!"

           4           Why haven't you put that in?  Help us.

           5   A.  I agree it's fundamental.

           6   Q.  Yes, it is.

           7   A.  But it was added into the detailed statement because

           8       that was a detail of what had happened.

           9   Q.  It was added into the detailed statement.  My question

          10       is: why did you need to add it afterwards, three or four

          11       days later, into the detailed statement if you knew

          12       about that on the night?  Help us.

          13   A.  Quite simply, sir, I didn't believe that it had to be

          14       included in the initial note.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have only just mentioned the

          16       occupant in the vehicle and you don't mention anything

          17       about him again --

          18   A.  I don't, sir, no.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- not even whether he got out of

          20       the vehicle or anything at all.

          21   A.  As I said, sir, I agree that, as Mr Thomas stated, it is

          22       fundamental.  However, I was quite happy that what I was

          23       writing there was my brief recollection of facts.

          24       I agree that it could have been in there, that there was

          25       a male that got out of the cab, but I was quite happy


                                            55
 

 

 


           1       that I knew that was going to be written by myself two

           2       days later, 48 hours later, in my detailed statement,

           3       and I knew to what detail that was going to include.

           4       But because of the initial account is the facts, I was

           5       not sure whether it was relevant to put it in at that

           6       time.

           7   MR THOMAS:  Forgive me, are you saying to this court that

           8       something that you considered to be fundamental, you

           9       didn't think that was relevant to put in your witness

          10       statement; did I hear you right?

          11   A.  Not my witness statement, because my witness statement,

          12       my detailed statement was written two days later and it

          13       is in that.

          14   Q.  This is your initial account.

          15   A.  Of the relevant facts of the time.

          16   Q.  Exactly, this is your initial account of the relevant

          17       facts at the time, your words.  You are not saying for

          18       one moment that the fact that the man on your account

          19       was reaching just before -- and you saw and perceived

          20       that to be a threat --

          21   A.  Correct, sir.

          22   Q.  -- and then you hear shots, that you are telling us you

          23       knew came from your colleagues, you are not saying, are

          24       you, W42, that that's not a relevant fact, or are you?

          25   A.  To me, sir, it wasn't a relevant fact.  It was a detail


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       of what had happened.  Therefore, I was happy that it

           2       was going to be written 48 hours later.

           3   Q.  Did I just hear you right: you said it's not a relevant

           4       fact?

           5   A.  The fact that you have just mentioned?  It is a relevant

           6       fact but in my mind not for the initial account.

           7   Q.  I'm going to move on.  Sentence number 6:

           8           "I was immediately taken to the ground and tended to

           9       by my colleagues."

          10   A.  Correct, sir.

          11   Q.  Sentence number 7:

          12           "I was taken to hospital, with no injuries as the

          13       bullet had struck my radio."

          14           Would you agree with this: in terms of the initial

          15       account -- I wonder if we can just put up, please, the

          16       ACPO guidelines, I think it's paragraph 7.92, which

          17       we're all familiar with, we have looked at before.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, we have.

          19   MR THOMAS:  If we can have them on the screen.  This makes

          20       it absolutely crystal clear, doesn't it, that where

          21       force is used, as part of the initial account, you doing

          22       your initial account, if you see some justification for

          23       it, you should be mentioning it.

          24   A.  As it states there, sir, yes, that's correct.

          25   Q.  Well, you, if I have understood your evidence correctly,


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       if I can just break it down -- just before the shots

           2       were fired that hit Mark Duggan, you say that you see

           3       a threat, you say that he's reaching, you think he's

           4       going for a weapon, correct?

           5   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  Bearing in mind your guidelines there, and this is

           7       talking about the initial account, explain to the jury,

           8       please, why those details, those relevant details, are

           9       not in your initial account?

          10   A.  Sir, other than what I've answered, it was, in my

          11       opinion, that evening, and in my understanding, that

          12       I didn't have to include that because I knew I would be

          13       writing about it.  That's the best explanation I can

          14       give, in that that evening -- now, I am not saying that

          15       it was because of the traumatic event, that that's what

          16       made me miss it out, it's not, but I have considered

          17       that evening, that knowing that those details are going

          18       to be written 48 hours later, and to some great length,

          19       that it didn't have to be included at that time.

          20   Q.  Can you help me with this: you will accept then, that in

          21       the seven sentences that you've written, only one

          22       touches upon the meat of the incident, that's sentence

          23       number five.  The rest are pretty bland straightforward

          24       sentences.  Help me with this next question, W42: can we

          25       call up page CD22, the notebook again?


                                            58
 

 

 


           1           You start the notebook at 23.30 -- can we go over

           2       the page to the top, focusing on that time by the

           3       date -- you finish your notebook at midnight.

           4           Can we go over the page.  Can we focus in on the

           5       time stamp.  It's upside down but you don't frank your

           6       machine until 00.15.

           7           Questions.  Number 1: why did it take you half

           8       an hour to write seven sentences, one of which is

           9       relatively bland, doesn't give any detail -- that's

          10       sentence number 5 -- why has it taken you so long?

          11   A.  Recalling back, sir, I can't remember.  That's obviously

          12       how long it's taken me.  I do remember though that, when

          13       I was writing my initial account, despite the fact I had

          14       seen a few people beforehand, I was taken out to speak

          15       to other people.

          16   Q.  During your notes?

          17   A.  I was speaking to one other, yes.  I think I spoke to

          18       one of the senior officers and I started at 11.30,

          19       I did, that time was on it.

          20   Q.  Why didn't you write in your notebook "Notes

          21       interrupted" and time it, which is what you should be

          22       doing; do you accept that?

          23   A.  I accept if I was in the middle of writing.  However,

          24       I can't remember if it was at the start or if it was the

          25       end.  If it did take me half an hour, then it took me


                                            59
 

 

 


           1       half an hour to write.

           2   Q.  Forgive me, I'm not following what you're saying, it's

           3       probably my fault.  I have just asked you: why did it

           4       take you half an hour?  You came up with the excuse you

           5       believe you were interrupted and you were taken out.

           6       I'm asking you, if that is right, why haven't you noted

           7       "Notes stopped, interruption" and time it and then

           8       "Notes commenced again", if that is the explanation?

           9       Help us.

          10   A.  The only reason is it possibly would have been at the

          11       start of the notes, so therefore the notes actually

          12       hadn't taken place, I hadn't put pen to paper or writing

          13       on day, date, time and place.  The time was possibly in

          14       there.  But I hadn't had -- hadn't actually stopped

          15       writing -- or started writing, sorry, sir.

          16   Q.  Respectfully, W42, this is nonsense, isn't it?

          17   A.  Say again, sir, sorry?

          18   Q.  This is nonsense, what you're suggesting; do you accept

          19       that?

          20   A.  Not at all, sir.

          21   Q.  Next question, still on the timings.  We know, because

          22       we've been told by several officers, that the franking

          23       room, the time stamp room, is a couple of minutes away.

          24       Why does it take you quarter of an hour before you get

          25       your notes franked if you finished at midnight?


                                            60
 

 

 


           1   A.  Again, sir, I can't explain or recall why exactly, other

           2       than, as I've said at the time, there were several

           3       people wanting to speak to me.  The franking machine is

           4       down the other end of the corridor, people may have

           5       stopped me at that time and I'm not saying that as

           6       a reason that the time is 15 minutes later.  I was

           7       stopped on several occasions that night to talk to

           8       different people.

           9           However, if it's 15 minutes afterwards, then there

          10       may be many reasons, the ones of which I have just said.

          11       I can only imagine I was stopped by someone asking

          12       questions.

          13   Q.  Let me move on.  I'm moving on to a completely different

          14       topic if I may, now, W42.  Can we take matters up now to

          15       the incident itself, okay?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  So you're approaching Ferry Lane, right?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  The hard stop is called -- I'm using "hard stop" as

          20       a shorthand.

          21   A.  That's fine, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  You understand what I mean?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Just bear with me one moment.  (Pause)

          25           I just want to take you to your witness statement.


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       This is your witness statement of 7 August.  I believe

           2       it's CS -- the page I want to go to is page 120.  If you

           3       have the hard copy in your folder you can look at it.

           4   A.  Okay, thank you, sir.

           5   Q.  It's page 4 of 8.  I am just reading from the second to

           6       last paragraph:

           7           "Having only the bronze people carrier in front,

           8       I quickly confirmed the index."

           9           Then you give the index.

          10   A.  Correct.

          11   Q.  Then:

          12           "I quickly looked in my nearside door mirror that

          13       I had everyone in place behind us.  Once happy, I told

          14       my driver, V48 to go for the stop, and on the main

          15       working channel ... I stated three clear commands of

          16       'Strike'."

          17           Okay?

          18   A.  Correct, yes.

          19   Q.  Then your driver puts in the, stop, okay?  You say:

          20           "V48 started to attempt the stopping of the vehicle,

          21       by pulling in front of the people carrier in our

          22       approved training method.  This was proving difficult,

          23       but it was achieved."

          24           What was the difficulty?

          25   A.  I think the initial difficulty was the cab had been


                                            62
 

 

 


           1       driving quite slow up until that point and as we were

           2       approaching, while we were on Ferry Lane, as the driver

           3       went for the overtake, I think the cab actually started

           4       to speed up slightly.  In my mind it was the fact that

           5       a car was beginning to overtake it.  The driver has gone

           6       for the manoeuvre to get in front and that's when the

           7       cab sort of began to speed up.  My driver has come out

           8       slightly so as not to cause an accident, that was the

           9       difficulty.  But we achieved it in the second attempt to

          10       pull across the front of the minicab.

          11   Q.  Okay.  Over the page -- I am not reading every sentence,

          12       I can leave others to do that if they so wish.

          13           Top paragraph, so you get into your approved Alpha

          14       position and you say this:

          15           "Just prior to the overtake, I had quickly put on my

          16       gloves, I attached my MP5 carbine to my sling, and

          17       I placed my police firearms officer baseball cap on."

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  "Just as our vehicle was coming to a stop, I had my

          20       passenger window open and I went for the door handle and

          21       deployed with feet on the ground."

          22   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  "I immediately placed my MP5 selector lever to fire and

          24       as I turned out of the passenger seat, I bought my MP5

          25       up to bear and aimed at the front of the vehicle."


                                            63
 

 

 


           1   A.  Correct, sir.

           2   Q.  "Seeing immediately that there was no front passenger or

           3       the driver posing any threat, I was almost immediately

           4       on the pavement, and onto the side passenger door."

           5           Is that right?

           6   A.  Correct, yes.

           7   Q.  "With my MP5 still in the aim, I immediately saw that

           8       the nearside sliding door was open and I was presented

           9       with an IC3 male, who was exiting the vehicle."

          10   A.  That's correct, sir.

          11   Q.  Can I concentrate on that sentence, please?  So you

          12       actually see the minicab sliding door sliding open?

          13   A.  I can't recall if it was sliding open.  As I have stated

          14       there, sir, it was open.

          15   Q.  Right.  Did you see anything being thrown from the cab?

          16   A.  No, sir, I didn't.

          17   Q.  You say this -- no, let me come back to that.

          18           Can I just be clear on this: were you the first

          19       officer on the pavement, as far as you could tell?

          20   A.  I would say so, yes.

          21   Q.  So by the time you get into a position to see the

          22       minicab where Mark Duggan emerged from, the door was

          23       already open.

          24   A.  It was open, yes.

          25   Q.  So if Mark Duggan had thrown a weapon that he had in


                                            64
 

 

 


           1       that minicab out of the minicab at the time that the

           2       door had been opened, you got there too late to see it?

           3   A.  I would disagree, sir.  Because although the door was

           4       open, the body positioning, as I explained, the male was

           5       getting out.  He wasn't already within -- outside the

           6       door, he was getting out.

           7   Q.  W42, if you don't follow my question, it's my fault.

           8       Let me put it to you.  You don't see the door begin to

           9       open, correct?

          10   A.  Correct.

          11   Q.  By the time you are on the pavement, the door is already

          12       open.

          13   A.  Correct.

          14   Q.  All I'm putting to you is this: you would have had to

          15       have got out of your vehicle, made your way onto the

          16       pavement and, if Mark Duggan had thrown -- whilst he was

          17       in the minicab, if he had thrown a firearm from the

          18       minicab, you got there too late to see that; do you

          19       follow?

          20   A.  I follow, but I disagree, sir.

          21   Q.  You don't know, do you?

          22   A.  I do because of my positioning within the Alpha operator

          23       seat.

          24   Q.  All right.  So let's be clear on that then.  One theory

          25       is -- I'm trying to ascertain how the gun got where it


                                            65
 

 

 


           1       did onto the grass patch.

           2   A.  Yes, sir, I understand.

           3   Q.  If we take your evidence as the truth, you say:

           4           "There is no way Mark Duggan could have thrown the

           5       gun from the minicab and me not see it."

           6           Is that your evidence?

           7   A.  It is, yes, because he would have had to have done it as

           8       the cab was in motion.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Why do you say that?

          10   A.  Because, sir, my window is open for a reason.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have your baseball cap on,

          12       haven't you, as you come forward --

          13   A.  I have, yes.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- sirens are going on, all of

          15       a sudden the people in the cab will know there are

          16       police officers all around?

          17   A.  At that point the baseball cap is within the door

          18       pillar.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I thought you had put it on?

          20   A.  Sorry, sir, just go back.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  "I placed my police cap on."

          22   A.  Sorry, yes, that's stated there.  Yes, I would have had

          23       the baseball cap on.  My positioning, if sat in the

          24       Alpha seat, as such, the whole time the window is open,

          25       as we're going for the overtake I'm following that


                                            66
 

 

 


           1       vehicle the whole time, despite the fact where the car

           2       is going, that is not my concentration.  My

           3       concentration from being behind the vehicle, initially,

           4       and, as we go for that overtake, I am following the

           5       whole way round out of that open window with the door

           6       cracked open holding onto that handle, so when the

           7       vehicle is at a safe driving pace, that I know I am not

           8       going to get out and stumble or fall, I'm out of that

           9       vehicle.

          10           I had vision on that vehicle at all times prior to

          11       and commensurate with the overtake.

          12   MR THOMAS:  Where do you say that in your witness statement,

          13       that you had eyes on the vehicle at all times?

          14   A.  I don't, sir, that's just something that I'm telling you

          15       now, that's something I do as an Alpha operator.

          16   Q.  You knew that there was an issue in relation to

          17       an explanation as to how the gun ended up where it ended

          18       up.  You know that's an issue?

          19   A.  Correct, sir, but I knew nothing of that when that

          20       happened.

          21   Q.  No, but how many statements have you made?

          22   A.  Around about seven or eight.

          23   Q.  Ask right.  So you might not have known it then but you

          24       certainly knew it was an issue subsequently.  Why isn't

          25       it in any of your statements?


                                            67
 

 

 


           1   A.  Sorry, the fact that I've just --

           2   Q.  "[You] kept eyes on the vehicle at all times and

           3       therefore there's no way he could have thrown the gun

           4       out of the vehicle without me seeing it."

           5   A.  Sir, to be honest, when I wrote that statement I didn't

           6       know it was an issue.

           7   Q.  I understand that but you are not following my question.

           8       You've made several witness statements after.  You have

           9       got them there, right?

          10   A.  Correct, yes.

          11   Q.  Let's run through the dates.  The date of your first

          12       statement.

          13   A.  Starting with the initial account?

          14   Q.  The initial account is the 4th.  The second statement is

          15       the 7th, correct?

          16   A.  Correct, yes.

          17   Q.  Tell us the date of the next statement?

          18   A.  18 January.

          19   Q.  Which year?

          20   A.  2012.

          21   Q.  Next statement?

          22   A.  22 May 2012.

          23   Q.  Continue.

          24   A.  The next one I've got in here: 23 August 2012.  (Pause)

          25           Then the last one I've got in here is


                                            68
 

 

 


           1       20 September 2012.

           2   Q.  Now, although you may not have known it was an issue on

           3       4 or 7 August 2011, you knew that was an issue,

           4       certainly by the time you came to write your later

           5       statements, didn't you?  How the gun ended up on the

           6       grass, you knew that was going to be an issue.

           7   A.  For me, sir, no.  I'll tell you the first time it

           8       became -- I knew it was an issue, sir, was at the

           9       Hutchinson-Foster; that was the first time, and those

          10       statements had been written beforehand.  That was the

          11       first time I had actually heard that it had been found

          12       on the grass verge.

          13   Q.  You didn't know that your -- you are saying that you

          14       didn't know the gun had been found on the grass?

          15   A.  I knew it had been found close to where the stop had

          16       happened but I didn't know until the Hutchinson-Foster

          17       trial exactly where, sir.

          18   Q.  Let's move on.

          19           Can I remind you of the evidence you gave yesterday

          20       in relation to where your eyes were.  Just bear with me

          21       one second because I want to make sure I've got that

          22       right.  (Pause)

          23           I am going to remind you of the evidence you gave

          24       yesterday, in relation to the issue of where your eyes

          25       were.  Those who want to follow the transcript, I'm


                                            69
 

 

 


           1       reading from the bottom of page 144.

           2           You say this, line 23.  Mr Underwood puts this to

           3       you:

           4           "Question: Sorry, stop there for a moment.  You

           5       think the taxi driver was looking at the front seat

           6       passenger of the Bravo vehicle, did you?"

           7   A.  Correct, yes.

           8   Q.  Your answer:

           9           "Answer: I believe so.  That's what I recall,

          10       because I didn't see him taking much notice of myself.

          11           "Question: When you say that, do you mean that the

          12       front seat passenger of the Bravo vehicle was still in

          13       his seat or had he got out and got by the side of the

          14       minicab?

          15           "Answer: I can't recall whether he had got out but

          16       I would have expected him at that stage of the stop with

          17       a containment onto that driver.

          18           "Question: But one way or the other, you were

          19       satisfied there was eye contact between the front seat

          20       passenger of Bravo and the taxi driver?

          21           "Answer: I was, yes.

          22           "Question: You did what then?

          23           "Answer: Pretty much within two to three steps,

          24       I was on the pavement and I was onto the nearside of the

          25       minicab, and I was presented with the male I now know to


                                            70
 

 

 


           1       be Mark Duggan exiting the minicab.

           2           "Question: Let's take this slowly.  Was his

           3       passenger door open or opening or what?

           4           "Answer: It was to my -- in my recollection it was

           5       already open."

           6           Then you go on to deal with where he was in relation

           7       to the doorway.

           8           So can you just help us.  In that passage, what you

           9       appear to be saying is that you had your eyes on the

          10       taxi driver and you were looking at the taxi driver to

          11       see what the taxi driver was doing and whether there was

          12       eye contact between the taxi driver and so on; is that

          13       right?

          14   A.  At the point of deploying, that's correct, as stated

          15       yesterday.  However, going back to what we were

          16       discussing beforehand, I'm talking about as I'm still in

          17       the vehicle, what I was looking at.

          18   Q.  So I just want to be clear on what you are saying.  Were

          19       you concentrating on the taxi driver or were you

          20       concentrating on the side of the taxi to see whether

          21       anything could have come out?

          22   A.  I'll take it in two steps here, sir.  Throughout when

          23       the overtake is taking place, I'm taking in the bigger

          24       picture, I'm taking in everything, what the vehicle was

          25       doing, if that vehicle were to attempt to make off.


                                            71
 

 

 


           1       Obviously it didn't, we got into the approved Alpha

           2       position.  Upon deploying, I'm still taking that bigger

           3       picture.  It's hard to describe, sir, I mean that

           4       minicab -- you can take in the front, the driver, any

           5       passenger, and the area around you quite quickly and you

           6       can take in that great amount of information very

           7       quickly as well.

           8   Q.  Okay.  Let's move on.

           9           I want to come on then to when the -- you're on the

          10       pavement, you can see that the sliding door is open and

          11       you could see Mr Duggan exiting from the minicab, okay?

          12       So from that point.

          13   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  Right.  (Pause)

          15           I think you said yesterday that Mark Duggan, as he

          16       got out of the door frame of the minicab, he got onto

          17       the pavement and then, from that position, was in the

          18       direction of where V53 was and was making a beeline in

          19       that direction, correct?

          20   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  Can I put this to you and can you tell me whether or not

          22       this is right or if this is wrong, based on what you say

          23       happened, right?

          24           At any stage -- so we're talking about at the moment

          25       the cab stopped, Mark Duggan is exiting the minicab; do


                                            72
 

 

 


           1       you follow?  That's where I'm at.

           2   A.  Yes, no problem, sir.

           3   Q.  At any stage, when he steps out of the vehicle, does he

           4       turn and face you?

           5   A.  No, sir.

           6   Q.  Because you are in the direction of where the Alpha car

           7       is, aren't you?  The Alpha car is behind you -- you exit

           8       the Alpha car --

           9   A.  I do, yes.

          10   Q.  -- so behind you is the Alpha car, correct?

          11   A.  Correct, yes.

          12   Q.  Do you follow what I'm saying?

          13   A.  Yes, I follow, yes.

          14   Q.  Just so we are absolutely crystal clear about your

          15       account, you don't say at any stage Mark Duggan is

          16       facing you or facing the direction of the Alpha vehicle?

          17   A.  That's correct, yes.

          18   Q.  Just so we are clear on this, you know behind your

          19       vehicle is where the Tube station is, isn't it?

          20   A.  Further up the road, yes.

          21   Q.  Further up in that direction?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  So, you see, again, can we just be clear on this: when

          24       you say you see him from behind, the words you say you

          25       use are "He's reaching".


                                            73
 

 

 


           1   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  By this stage, you can see V53 and the other officers

           3       coming from the opposite direction to you?

           4   A.  I can see other officers, that's correct.  I can't

           5       specify that it was V53 at the time, though.

           6   Q.  You are concentrating on the man?

           7   A.  I am, yes.

           8   Q.  That's the direction you would expect them to be coming

           9       from, the Charlie vehicle?

          10   A.  I am, yes.

          11   Q.  That's the procedure, isn't it?

          12   A.  Correct.

          13   Q.  Although you don't know who the officers are, can I be

          14       clear on this: the whole purpose behind one of these

          15       hard stops is to shock and awe the subjects into

          16       compliance, isn't it?

          17   A.  Correct, yes.

          18   Q.  So when you say you see him reaching, you are not saying

          19       that simply for your own benefit, you are not thinking

          20       that in your head, you are not whispering that, you are

          21       saying that to warn your colleagues, aren't you?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  That's the purpose behind you saying "He's reaching".

          24       You would be shouting it, wouldn't you?

          25   A.  I was, yes.


                                            74
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were you wired up was your

           2       microphone on you or anything else?

           3   A.  I would have had my personal communication set on, sir,

           4       yes.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that on?

           6   A.  It was on, yes, and that would have been on the main

           7       surveillance channel that we were working on.

           8   MR THOMAS:  You see, can I ask you this: are you sure you

           9       shouted "He's reaching"?

          10   A.  Positively, sir.

          11   Q.  Because I need to put this to you: not one other

          12       firearms officer says that they hear those words.  Can

          13       you assist?

          14   A.  I can't, sir, for whatever those officers have heard,

          15       but I know that I shouted that.

          16   Q.  You see, I'm going to put to you what it is said that

          17       you said, so you can deal with it.

          18   A.  Mm-hmm.

          19   Q.  Mark Duggan gets out of the minicab, he's going in your

          20       direction, or he's facing you, and you shout, "Stand

          21       still".  He sees you and then turns and goes into the

          22       direction of the officers from the Charlie vehicle.

          23       What do you say to that; is that what happened?

          24   A.  It's not, sir, because at the start of that, you said he

          25       faced me, I have already said he didn't.  He was in the


                                            75
 

 

 


           1       threshold of the door, his body, if this is the

           2       threshold of the door, was straight on (indicates) to

           3       where the railings and the grass verge were.

           4           I'm at that direction, at 45-degree, if you want to

           5       call it, coming from the Alpha car, as you said, with it

           6       behind me.  His body was straight on to the cab.  He's

           7       never faced me, I have said that completely.  As I have

           8       described it from that position there, he's turned and

           9       then went towards the colleagues coming from the Charlie

          10       vehicle.

          11   MR THOMAS:  Understood.  So quite wrong --

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No.  You've done enough, come on.

          13   MR THOMAS:  I'll move on.  Just bear with me one moment.

          14       (Pause)

          15           Can I just come to the positioning of Mr Duggan's

          16       hands as you say they were when he steps out of the

          17       minicab.  Could you stand up for us, please, W42?

          18       Imagine you're in the doorway of the minicab, the frame,

          19       as you say, so he comes out and straight ahead you have

          20       the park haven't you, the green?

          21   A.  You have, yes.

          22   Q.  Your evidence is he's looking at the green and then he

          23       turns in the direction of where the Charlie vehicle is

          24       where the other officers are coming?

          25   A.  Correct, sir, yes.


                                            76
 

 

 


           1   Q.  As he's stepping out of that doorway, that frame, can

           2       you -- you would have been looking at him side on,

           3       45 degrees?

           4   A.  45 degrees, that's correct.

           5   Q.  Can you just show us, please, because you would -- your

           6       concentration would have been to see where his hands

           7       are --

           8   A.  Correct.

           9   Q.  -- where his hands are?

          10   A.  I cannot recall what the left hand was doing but the

          11       right hand, I'll just undo there -- the jacket was

          12       undone as such, fully undone, and his right hand was

          13       tucked inside like this (indicates).

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you show me as well?

          15   A.  (Indicates) Tucked inside.

          16   MR THOMAS:  Can I just demonstrate that just in case people

          17       upstairs wish to see.  So jacket fully undone, yes, and

          18       you said that his right hand was fully inside, yes?

          19   A.  Correct, sir.

          20   Q.  Left hand, you said?

          21   A.  I cannot recall what the left hand was doing.

          22   Q.  So are you saying that he got out of the vehicle like

          23       that?

          24   A.  To recall, I cannot recall what the left hand was doing.

          25       Playing it back, I'm happy that I saw the left hand but


                                            77
 

 

 


           1       I can't be sure whether it had been opening the door --

           2       but I was happy that the door was open -- whether it was

           3       in the final steps of that, that that's how I could see

           4       his left hand or I was quite happy that his left hand

           5       was visible to me.  I know it was but I can't recall

           6       exactly how it was.  It was his right hand that I was

           7       concentrating on.

           8   Q.  Can you help me with this: when he's got his back to

           9       you -- so he's now exited and I think you said he's

          10       turned --

          11   A.  Pivoted.

          12   Q.  -- pivoted in the direction of where the Charlie vehicle

          13       is coming from, yes?

          14   A.  Correct, yes.

          15   Q.  He's got two feet on the pavement, so he's fully exited

          16       the vehicle?

          17   A.  He has, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  Your evidence is he then begins to make his direction

          19       away from you?

          20   A.  Correct, yes.

          21   Q.  He's moving hurriedly?

          22   A.  Yes, sir, "in a hurried manner" was the explanation

          23       I gave, yes.

          24   Q.  Yes.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                            78
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Just so we're clear, it's not your evidence, is it, that

           2       when he exited -- you have already said "he wasn't

           3       looking at me" -- your evidence is, when he's out of the

           4       vehicle, he's made off.  He's not stopped, in other

           5       words got out, looked at you, turned and then you hear

           6       the shots; that's not your evidence, is it?

           7   A.  I believe my evidence is that he's not looked at me, as

           8       he's in the door frame, and he's turned -- I think it is

           9       my evidence, sir, is it not, that once he's turned away

          10       and he's got his back to me I've shouted and then I've

          11       heard shots; was it those exact words, sir, sorry?

          12   Q.  Let me break it down for you so we're clear.  You have

          13       Mark Duggan once he's out of the car, moving away before

          14       you see him what appears to be reaching, you shout the

          15       warning and then you hear the shots; have I understood

          16       that correctly?

          17   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  It's not your evidence, is it, that Mark Duggan gets out

          19       of the vehicle, faces you, you say something -- we can

          20       put to one side what it's said that you said -- and then

          21       he just pivoted, still in the same position, and he is

          22       shot more or less by the door; that's not your evidence,

          23       is it?

          24   A.  The fact you have said the fact that he faced me, then

          25       no that's not my evidence, sir.


                                            79
 

 

 


           1   Q.  But he's not stationary when he's shot, according to

           2       you, is he?  You said that he's moved away hurriedly.

           3   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You can sit down if you want to,

           5       I do not think there's any more demonstration for the

           6       moment.

           7           Can I just be a little more probing on exactly your

           8       position.  Now, your Alpha car, as we know, later on

           9       ends up on the pavement.  It's moved.

          10   A.  It was, sir, yes.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you get out of it, your feet

          12       hit the ground on the tarmac of the road?

          13   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You don't have a view down the side

          15       of the taxi?

          16   A.  Which side, sir, sorry?

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, down the passenger side where

          18       the door is, there isn't a door on the other side.  You

          19       would have realised that, wouldn't you?

          20   A.  Not at that immediate moment.  Yes, due to the position

          21       of the vehicle but that is why, as I described, before

          22       the vehicle actually stops, I'm out to gain that vision

          23       straight away.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's more than to gain the vision.

          25       You're getting out because of the shock and awe tactic


                                            80
 

 

 


           1       is that the people who you want to stop shouldn't get

           2       out of their vehicles.

           3   A.  Correct.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You frighten them into staying in

           5       the vehicle.

           6   A.  Correct, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You want to get there to the door

           8       before they get out.

           9   A.  Correct, sir.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you are moving as fast as you

          11       can?

          12   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are you continuing to move fast?

          14   A.  Up until the point when I'm on the pavement and onto

          15       that passenger door, it's then down to a walking pace.

          16       If needed, which in this case it was, but in any normal

          17       instance I would be stationary at still the 45-degree

          18       angle to the vehicle in question.  But up until that

          19       point it's hurried, fast out, and then slow from that

          20       point, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We have a film, and I know we have

          22       not seen it for a while and I know the jury would not be

          23       very keen about necessarily seeing it again, but it

          24       might show where you are when you were hit.  Because

          25       after you're hit, you don't move really, forwards or


                                            81
 

 

 


           1       backwards, you stay still and then perhaps go down on

           2       your knees.

           3   A.  I was, sir.  I was placed on the ground exactly where it

           4       happened, yes.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So I just wonder whether we could

           6       find any shots that would show where you are in relation

           7       to -- it might be at the beginning of that film that we

           8       have looked at.

           9   MR THOMAS:  It might of KEL/10.

          10   MR STERN:  Sir, I don't know whether you would be assisted

          11       with a photograph whilst my learned friend Mr Scott is

          12       looking for this, I don't know.  You've got CE079.

          13       I know we have looked at that one a number of times,

          14       I don't know if that will help.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The ones I have are too late.

          16       I really wanted --

          17   MR STERN:  It is later, obviously.  But that may help.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, no, I want the picture from

          19       above showing where the Alpha car was and showing where

          20       W42 is, just to see how far he managed to get from the

          21       front door before he's shot.

          22   A.  I think actually, sir, that picture that was just

          23       brought up, obviously just having looked at it, that

          24       would help as well as the one we are talking about.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The film, the BBC film.  I know we


                                            82
 

 

 


           1       have not looked at it for a while.  It was right at the

           2       beginning, before the Alpha car has actually moved,

           3       right at the beginning of it.

           4        (Video footage was played to the court and ended)

           5           Can you see that?

           6   A.  I can, sir, yes.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the position of your Alpha

           8       car?

           9   A.  It is, yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It may be difficult to work out

          11       where you are at this stage.

          12   A.  I could point it out.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would you?

          14   A.  (Indicates)  That sort of mass there.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then Mr Scott has the technology to

          16       be able to indicate where you pointed it out to us.

          17       (Pause)

          18   A.  Absolutely correct, sir.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's just play on and see if we can

          20       see anything a bit more clearly.

          21             (Video footage was played to the court)

          22           Obviously the man in the white shirt coming up, is

          23       he near to you now where the white arrow is?

          24   A.  I'd say, just at that moment you spoke there, sir,

          25       I think he was in between.  Again, probably in


                                            83
 

 

 


           1       between -- probably now to where I am, yes.

           2                    (The video footage ended)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  How close are you to the railings at

           4       that stage?

           5   A.  I think I was sat against them by one of my colleagues

           6       as a sort of support to begin with.  I was away from the

           7       railings to start, I was in the middle of the pavement,

           8       and I do remember them moving me to the side to those

           9       railings to sit me up initially and then I was then lain

          10       down on the ground.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.

          12   MR THOMAS:  A few more questions.  W42, I wonder if we can

          13       play KEL/10, which is another piece of footage.

          14             (Video footage was played to the court)

          15   MR THOMAS:  I will say pause when I'm ready.

          16           Pause it there.

          17                    (The video footage ended)

          18           I believe this was taken from a bus which was

          19       travelling in the opposite direction that you were

          20       travelling in, so the bus is heading towards where you

          21       are; do you follow?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  Have are you orientated yourself?

          24   A.  I can, I can start to see where the stop has taken

          25       place, yes.


                                            84
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Exactly, exactly.  On the pavement, on the same side

           2       that you did the hard stop, I'm going to suggest that

           3       there are two pedestrians.  We can just about make out

           4       one pedestrian now.  I wonder if Mr Scott could wiggle

           5       the mouse.  Yes, that's him or her.

           6           Can we just show where the stop is?

           7   A.  Yes, happy with that, sir, yes.

           8   Q.  So we have one pedestrian there and if we just play on

           9       a little bit more.

          10        (Video footage was played to the court and ended)

          11           I'm going to suggest there's a second pedestrian

          12       there (indicates), I think, if Mr Scott wiggles the

          13       mouse.

          14   A.  Yes, got it.

          15   Q.  Then you can see a little bit further on that's where

          16       the hard stop is; do you follow?

          17   A.  I do, yes.

          18   Q.  Now, if we just leave that up just for the moment, you

          19       were on the pavement and you were hit in your radio,

          20       right?

          21   A.  Correct, yes.

          22   Q.  You have indicated that it was just under the -- near

          23       the armpit region, correct?

          24   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  This was an extremely dangerous hard stop, wasn't it?


                                            85
 

 

 


           1       You had two other pedestrians who were in the arc of

           2       fire on the same pavement; that is right, isn't it?

           3   A.  Correct, sir.  Those pedestrians are on the pavement,

           4       I can see that.

           5   Q.  They are in the arc of fire, aren't they?  You took the

           6       bullet, but between you and them -- it was fortunate

           7       that other people were not injured, isn't it?

           8   A.  It is, but I would disagree that they were in the arc of

           9       fire.  I don't know how long after the stop this footage

          10       has been taken, that is the thing.  This could have been

          11       after the shots, well after the shots.  I don't remember

          12       those people being on the pavement when I called the

          13       strike --

          14   Q.  A few seconds apparently, a few seconds.

          15   A.  After?

          16   Q.  At the time of the stop, this is a few seconds at the

          17       time of the stop.  We can play the whole thing.

          18   A.  Is it just the stop or the actual shots then, sorry?

          19   Q.  The stop.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  A few seconds after the shot,

          21       I think, is the -- but anyway, there may not be that

          22       much between them.  The Alpha car is in position before

          23       being moved, and it's in the early seconds.

          24   A.  Quite, sir, yes.

          25   MR THOMAS:  In any event, just one final matter and then,


                                            86
 

 

 


           1       subject to instructions, obviously -- it's this: you

           2       said this yesterday.  This was in relation to Mr Duggan

           3       coming out of the vehicle and you making a threat

           4       assessment about him.

           5           Now, he's got his back to you, you have indicated

           6       that you think that one of his hands is concealed, it's

           7       in his waistband -- or waist region?

           8   A.  Towards the waistband, yes.

           9   Q.  Yes, towards the waistband region, concealed by the

          10       coat.  Then you say this, and I'm reading from the

          11       bottom of page 147:

          12           "Answer: Obviously, having deployed from the

          13       vehicle, I have identified myself as armed police and

          14       there's either two things that I would normally shout

          15       then.  If I could see both hands, it would be for -- to

          16       get on the ground."

          17   A.  Correct, yes.

          18   Q.  I'll read that again:

          19           "Answer: Obviously, having deployed from the

          20       vehicle, I have identified myself as armed police and

          21       there's either two things that I would normally shout

          22       then.  If I could see both hands, it would be for -- to

          23       get on the ground."

          24   A.  Again, sir, you are correct.

          25   Q.  "But in that instance, because one of the hand was not


                                            87
 

 

 


           1       visible, my immediate reaction was to shout 'Show me

           2       your hands'."

           3           Let me ask you about that.  So that's what you say

           4       you were shouting, yes?

           5   A.  Correct.

           6   Q.  Can I just visualise this?  So Mr Duggan is -- this is

           7       all happening very quickly, correct?

           8   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  He's got out, you cannot see his right hand, and you're

          10       shouting "Show me your hands".

          11   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  Shortly after that he's shot.

          13   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  If you shout "Show me your hands", what do you expect

          15       the individual to do?

          16   A.  To show me the hand that he's concealing.

          17   Q.  Right.  So there you are, let's just picture this.  On

          18       your version of events, there you are, Mr Duggan has his

          19       hand there (indicates) and you're shouting "Show me your

          20       hands" and he pulls his hands out.  Isn't that going to

          21       indicate, if his hand is concealed and you have

          22       an officer in front, that he might be more of a threat

          23       and cause him to get shot?

          24   A.  I'm sorry, sir, I don't follow.

          25   Q.  Well, there was no gun found by him, correct?


                                            88
 

 

 


           1   A.  As I believe, yes.

           2   Q.  You're shouting to the man from behind, "Show me your

           3       hands", you say "He's reaching".  On your version of

           4       events, Mr Duggan is pulling his hand out and then --

           5   MR STERN:  Sorry to interrupt, but it is quite important

           6       that we get the portion at which this was said and the

           7       context in which it was said.  If one looks at 147,

           8       unfortunately Mr Thomas didn't read the next line

           9       because the next question is:

          10           "Question: When he started to move away in his

          11       hurried fashion?"

          12           It's "show me your hands".

          13           "Question: Do you have any other officers in your

          14       view?

          15           "Answer: At that point when he was in the frame of

          16       the doorway, no I didn't."

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, thank you.  Back to your

          18       questions.

          19   MR THOMAS:  I shall continue with what I'm asking.  You

          20       can't see the hand, correct?

          21   A.  I'll go back to the question you asked just to begin

          22       with, sir, and that is, when he's at the cab, I shout

          23       "Show me your hands".  He ignored completely what

          24       I said.  When he turns his back, I haven't said that

          25       I continued to shout "Show me your hands".  I wouldn't


                                            89
 

 

 


           1       have done because his back is now to me, that's the

           2       point that my -- it has changed to "He's reaching, he's

           3       reaching".

           4           So I understand what you said, just to begin with,

           5       that's why I wanted just to clarify, but at the point

           6       it's said "Show me your hands" that's because I couldn't

           7       see his right hand, which was concealed.  When he's

           8       turned away from me, there's no more shouts of that,

           9       there wouldn't be.  The shout was "He's reaching, he's

          10       reaching".

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have why your MP5 up in the aim

          12       at this time?

          13   A.  Up in the aim, it's in what we call the off-aim ready,

          14       sir, which is minimal movement from the eye but it's

          15       still enough that we can see over the weapon so you are

          16       taking in your surroundings and everything that's

          17       happening.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We can see by that little film that

          19       I had played, you're really quite close to him, aren't

          20       you?

          21   A.  I was, yes, I didn't realise how close until I had

          22       actually seen some of the diagrams.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You end up really opposite the taxi

          24       door, don't you?

          25   A.  It's pretty much dead on the taxi door, yes.


                                            90
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  You didn't shoot him, did you?

           2   A.  I didn't, no.

           3   Q.  No, but your evidence is that you formed the view that,

           4       at this point in time, you've asked him to show you his

           5       hands.  On your version he hasn't complied, correct?

           6   A.  Correct.

           7   Q.  You then say you see his hand by his waistband,

           8       concealed.  You then form the view that he's reaching

           9       for a weapon, correct?

          10   A.  Correct, sir.

          11   Q.  You don't shoot.

          12   A.  Quite simply, sir, because his hand was concealed.

          13       I couldn't say no weapon.  However, had there been

          14       an imminent threat to my life --

          15   Q.  What about your colleagues?

          16   A.  -- colleague, member of the public or my own, sir, then

          17       obviously I would have done.

          18   Q.  Hang on a second, what about your colleagues who are

          19       just in front of him?  Was there not an imminent threat

          20       to their lives?

          21   A.  I believe there was, yes.

          22   Q.  Why didn't you shoot?

          23   A.  Why didn't I shoot?  I cannot see a gun.  There was

          24       obviously an imminent threat to their lives because he

          25       was shot.


                                            91
 

 

 


           1   Q.  As I have indicated there was no gun there by his body,

           2       was there?

           3   A.  I cannot recall any of that, sir, because I was not

           4       involved in any of that.

           5   Q.  Sorry one last topic, and that's the shots, okay?

           6           Mr Duggan, when he was making his way down

           7       hurriedly, was upright, wasn't he?

           8   A.  I can't recall, sir.

           9   Q.  You say that he got out of the vehicle upright

          10       yesterday?

          11   A.  He was in the frame of the door, yes, the threshold,

          12       that's correct.

          13   Q.  You could see him, you could see his back.  Sorry, can

          14       you help us with this: how can you not recall?  You said

          15       yesterday your eyes were focused on the man, you were

          16       focused on his back.  Was he upright?

          17   A.  I can't say, sir, I was concentrating on the man but

          18       height of body, et cetera, how his body position was,

          19       I can't.

          20   Q.  Could you see his head?

          21   A.  Recalling back, yes, I could.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, "recoiling back", did you

          23       say?

          24   A.  I'm being questioned whether I could just see his head.

          25       I would say that I would have been able to, yes.


                                            92
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, were you "recalling back" or

           2       "recoiling back".  Sorry, it was my fault, I didn't

           3       quite pick up your accent.

           4   A.  Recalling back.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What was your word?

           6   A.  Recalling, yes.

           7   MR THOMAS:  You could see his head, he didn't look from the

           8       back to be stooped, did he?

           9   A.  I can't recall, sir.

          10   Q.  Why is it you suddenly have problems with recollection?

          11   A.  Only recollection of what -- how his body was

          12       positioned, sir.  I have just said I could see the

          13       object, the shape, that was Mr Duggan, that's what I'm

          14       concentrating on.  I'm concentrating on that person but

          15       not as to how their legs were, their body was or

          16       anything else.  The main thing I'm concentrating on is

          17       to see whether he turns back towards me.

          18   Q.  You hear the two shots, don't you?

          19   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  After the first shot, do you recall the second shot

          21       hitting your radio?

          22   A.  I can't say which shot it was, sir.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The jury asked a much more

          24       intelligent question actually.

          25   MR THOMAS:  I'm sure they did.


                                            93
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I was just waiting for the moment to

           2       read out the jury's very intelligent question:

           3           "Did he know that he had been shot by the second

           4       shot that was heard?"

           5           So by the time that you felt that you had been shot,

           6       when you actually heard the second shot?

           7   A.  Playing it in normal sort of circumstances, sir, no.

           8       I've heard the two shots and felt the pain in my side.

           9       The best way I can describe what happened at the time of

          10       the event is what I've said in the statement, is that

          11       everything had gone in slow motion.  I've heard numerous

          12       occasions of people that have given talks of how these

          13       circumstances can come about and how they -- people

          14       recall these events and I've sat there and listened to

          15       them, how things have gone in slow motion and thought,

          16       okay, you must need to be there to experience that, and

          17       I was.

          18           In my head and when I wrote the statement, I heard

          19       the first shot and my body told me I then felt pain, and

          20       within the same period my mind has told me I've heard

          21       another shot.  Playing it back, if you played it back at

          22       normal speed, both were instantaneous and so was the

          23       pain, so I can't say which one did.  But when I've went

          24       to write it in my statement it was because my mind, my

          25       body, for some reason, played it back to me in that


                                            94
 

 

 


           1       sequence of events.

           2   MR THOMAS:  Can I put to you what you have put in your

           3       statement?  This is your witness statement of

           4       18 January 2012 -- sorry, forgive me, the witness

           5       statement of 22 May 2012.

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  I am looking at the bottom of that page about five or

           8       six lines up?

           9   A.  Is that the typed or the original, sorry, sir?

          10   Q.  I'm looking at the typed.

          11   A.  Okay.

          12   Q.  "I cannot remember how much time there was between the

          13       two shots nor can I remember the amount of time from me

          14       exiting the vehicle to the shots as well as the male

          15       exiting and the two shots."

          16           Then you say this:

          17           "With regards to the first shot and the feathers

          18       coming from the jacket.  Both were instantaneous."

          19           I'll read on:

          20           "What happened to the male's jacket, I don't know

          21       how the back of it exploded, but with what happened next

          22       and hearing the shots, I quickly assessed that it had

          23       been the exit of a round.  Where the feathers came from

          24       exactly or where they ended up, I cannot add anything

          25       specific.  I didn't see where the male's right or left


                                            95
 

 

 


           1       arms went.  I was still in the position previously

           2       mentioned.  At this point, I had stopped moving."

           3           Then you say this:

           4           "When the shot had been fired, the pain I felt was

           5       to my upper rib area.  My radio is carried in a covert

           6       holster that comes over my left shoulder and sits

           7       underneath my armpit to the top of my body armour.  At

           8       this point, I was standing at full height, although

           9       I may have been bent at the knees slightly.  I was

          10       angled side on to the male, in the aim."

          11           Can we just deal with this.  We know that you're

          12       more or less upright?

          13   A.  I would have been, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  We know, from V53's evidence that he is firing in

          15       a horizontal direction, he's not firing down; do you

          16       follow?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  But you say you can't recall whether Mr Duggan was

          19       stooped at the time you heard the shots; is that

          20       correct?

          21   A.  That's correct, that's what I said, sir.

          22   Q.  The shots, you said they were more or less

          23       instantaneous, so no distinguishing gap between them?

          24   A.  A distinguishing gap, sir, but that distinguishing gap

          25       still has an instantaneous element to it.


                                            96
 

 

 


           1   Q.  All right.  So just so we're clear, these two shots,

           2       although you could distinctly make out two shots, there

           3       was hardly any time between them, that's why you used

           4       the word "instantaneous".

           5   A.  Incorrect, only in what I described of how it played it

           6       back to me.  There was a distinct gap between the two

           7       shots.

           8   Q.  Why do you use the word "instantaneous"?

           9   A.  Is that with the two shots, sorry, is that with the

          10       feathers coming out of the jacket?

          11   Q.  Two shots.

          12   A.  I thought the instantaneous was with the shot and the

          13       feathers.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's go back to where you got the

          15       word "instantaneous".

          16   MR STERN:  132924.

          17   MR THOMAS:  You're saying that the feathers and the shot was

          18       instantaneous?

          19   A.  When I played it back in slow motion, sir, yes, that's

          20       how I recall that moment.

          21   Q.  Mr Duggan: when you hear the two shots, do you see any

          22       alteration to his position?

          23   A.  I didn't, no.

          24   Q.  Did you see Mr Duggan go to the ground?

          25   A.  Playing it back, sir, I remember something happening in


                                            97
 

 

 


           1       front of me but, as I've described, of how much pain I'd

           2       felt, the body sort of -- and this is what happens --

           3       the body starts doing sort of function checks on itself

           4       and that's what mine began to do.

           5   Q.  Did you see Mr Duggan go to the ground?

           6   A.  I saw him on the ground but not go to the ground, if

           7       that's what you're asking, sir.  Once everything had

           8       recalled back to me and my colleagues came to my side,

           9       to telling the first officer "I think I've been hit",

          10       I scanned back round again and I could see him on the

          11       ground then.

          12   MR THOMAS:  Sir, that's all I ask.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Let's see.  I think it may

          14       be you.

          15   MR KEITH:  I have no questions, thank you.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?  Mr Glasson?  Mr Stern?

          17   MR STERN:  I don't know whether you want to take a break

          18       first.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You tell us.

          20   MR STERN:  I'm not going to be very long, maybe ten minutes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Perhaps I got carried away, I had

          22       forgotten about the time.  We'll have a mid-morning

          23       break, it's only fair on those immediately in front of

          24       me.

          25           So we'll ask for the cameras to be turned off and


                                            98
 

 

 


           1       for the jury to leave us for ten minutes/quarter of

           2       an hour.  Thank you very much.

           8   (11.46 am)

           9                         (A short break)

          10   (12.02 pm)

          13                  (In the presence of the jury)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will now ask W42 to come back in,

          15       please.

          16                (The witness returned into court)

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We can have the cameras on and if

          18       you would like to come back and have a seat back in the

          19       witness box.  You're still under the oath you have taken

          20       for all your evidence.

          21   A.  Certainly, sir.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern is going to ask you some

          23       questions.

          24                      Questions by MR STERN

          25   MR STERN:  First of all, I wonder if we could look at CS130

 

                                            99
 


           1       and I want to ask you briefly about this.  It's about

           2       halfway down.  There's a sentence that begins:

           3           "On his way out of the cab, despite the front of his

           4       body being visible for a split second, his eyes never

           5       once looked in my directions."

           6           When you say "the front of his body being visible

           7       for a split second", was that after he had emerged from

           8       the minicab?

           9   A.  That was as he was, as described, still within the

          10       threshold --

          11   Q.  Still within the threshold.

          12   A.  -- of the minicab, sir.

          13   Q.  Can I ask you, please, to look at the photograph that

          14       was shown just a short while ago briefly, CE079.  Just

          15       to see if you can help us with the location of

          16       approximately where you may have been.

          17           First of all, we can see that there's clothing and

          18       I think what actually, when we look close up, is the

          19       radio holster of yours?

          20   A.  That is correct, sir, it is.

          21   Q.  Can you help with approximately where you were when you

          22       were aiming your MP5 towards Mr Duggan when you heard

          23       two shots and then felt the pain?

          24   A.  When the two shots were fired and I felt the pain, it

          25       would be -- as I recall being sort of -- directly


                                           100
 

 

 


           1       opposite the open door of the minicab, it would be

           2       (indicates) just about here.

           3   Q.  Just pause there are for a moment.  Mr Scott has this

           4       fantastic system of being able to put a marker on it.

           5       Just check it when he puts the marker so that we can --

           6       is that it or did you have it further forward?

           7   A.  Slightly further forward.  Yes, around about there, sir.

           8   Q.  Obviously no one can hold you exactly to it, but just so

           9       we have the approximate position.  So you were around

          10       about there when the shots were fired and you felt the

          11       pain?

          12   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  One thing you haven't told us, I think, is where you

          14       felt the pain and where you were actually wearing the

          15       holster because we know it went into your radio.  Could

          16       you just show us where your radio was on your body?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  Could you stand up?

          19   A.  Yes.  Where the body armour comes round and it comes

          20       round this side of the body (indicates), the holster

          21       itself comes over the left shoulder and Velcros round

          22       the right-hand side.  The radio itself sits underneath

          23       the armpit but it sits above the body armour and

          24       obviously, again, underneath the arm so it's in -- it

          25       sits in the one exposed area that the body armour does


                                           101
 

 

 


           1       not cover.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're in the aim, so could you put

           3       your hands where they were at the time you were hit?

           4   A.  Holding the full grip of my MP5 and having the hand

           5       there.  That elbow would be raised slightly from there

           6       (indicates) and it would have come straight underneath

           7       the arm.

           8   MR STERN:  You are left-handed?

           9   A.  Right-handed.  Sorry, but would have been in there and

          10       there (indicates).

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You think the bullet came underneath

          12       then, do you?

          13   A.  Given the way I was standing, as I said earlier on, sir,

          14       I would have been sort of standing proud but slightly

          15       knees bent, as we are trained to shoot.  It would have

          16       been side on, because if there was an imminent threat to

          17       my life, if someone posed a threat with me, if they are

          18       going to fire the gun they have the side of my body

          19       rather than the rest of my chest.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have the vest over that?

          21   A.  I have, yes.

          22   MR STERN:  Can we just come back to where the holster was,

          23       first of all, before we get to the actual position you

          24       were standing in.  I want to come to that next.  Where

          25       was the actual holster where the bullet actually struck?


                                           102
 

 

 


           1   A.  I would say with the size of it, probably about there

           2       (indicates).

           3   Q.  You are pointing -- obviously we don't have a visual

           4       record -- just, what, underneath your arm?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Into your left armpit?

           7   A.  (Indicates).

           8   MR STERN:  That's your left armpit, just underneath your

           9       left armpit.

          10   A.  It is, yes.

          11   Q.  That was the first question.  The second question about

          12       that is: can you demonstrate how you were standing?  At

          13       the time the bullet hit you, I mean.

          14   A.  Without a MP5 in hand, just to try and get the size,

          15       et cetera, the but in there, holding it, I would have

          16       been side on just on the off-aim ready --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Where would Mark Duggan be?

          18   A.  He would be straight on.

          19   MR STERN:  I see.  So you are side on to him.

          20   A.  So again from side on there with the subject straight

          21       ahead.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's really close, isn't it, at

          23       that time?

          24   A.  It was, sir, yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You could almost touch him, couldn't


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           1       you?

           2   A.  Not that close, sir, no.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.

           4   MR STERN:  Sorry, if you could just stand up again for

           5       a second.  You were side on and you have demonstrated

           6       you were standing upright but what were you doing with

           7       your knees?  Just help us with that.

           8   A.  From the position, this is now stood upright, just to

           9       get a balanced, if required, shooting platform, knees

          10       are just slightly bent.

          11   Q.  All right.  May I ask you a slightly personal question.

          12       How tall are you?

          13   A.  Around about 5'7", 5'8".

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's a difficult question to answer,

          15       is it?

          16   A.  6'2", sir!

          17   MR STERN:  The reason I ask you is because V53 is, I think

          18       as we've heard, over 6 foot.

          19   A.  He is, yes.

          20   Q.  You can sit down again, thank you.

          21           The next thing that I want to ask you about, please,

          22       is in relation to the footage that you were shown.  I am

          23       not going to ask that we see it again because we've seen

          24       it lots of times.  You pointed to the place where you

          25       were, doing the best you can on that footage, then we


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           1       saw someone with a white arrow; did you see who that

           2       was, did you recognise who that was?

           3   A.  At the time, I didn't recognise who that was.

           4   Q.  Do you now?

           5   A.  I do now, yes.

           6   Q.  Who do you say that was?

           7   A.  I believe it was Q63.

           8   Q.  What was he doing?

           9   A.  At which point, sir?

          10   Q.  We saw him on the -- do you want to see it again?

          11   A.  If possible, just to see which point you're talking

          12       about, please, sir.

          13             (Video footage was played to the court)

          14           Help us with what he's doing there.  You're on the

          15       ground there, are you?

          16   A.  I am, yes.  I'm still lying on the pavement or sitting

          17       up against the railings at that point.

          18   Q.  Do you know what Q63 was doing or can you not help?

          19   A.  I can't help at that point, sir.

          20                    (The video footage ended)

          21   Q.  Did you see where he went?

          22   A.  I know Q63, when the incident occurred, was the first

          23       person that came to my side and asked initially what was

          24       wrong, and I do know that, in the space of -- or the

          25       timeframe within what's happening there, he did come


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           1       back and check on my welfare on a number of occasions.

           2   Q.  I think you were on the pavement and then by the

           3       railings, as you have told us you were moved to.  Then

           4       after some time you moved on the Alpha vehicle; is that

           5       right?

           6   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  You were sitting in there?

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  When you were being tended to right at the outset,

          10       I think your shirt was taken off; is that correct?

          11   A.  It was ripped initially.  I still had my shirt on at the

          12       side of me because -- because it ended up in the vehicle

          13       with me.  It was ripped on the left-hand side, as such.

          14       I think it was cut and then it was ripped and I think

          15       the sort of right arm was still within it, hence why it

          16       was still sort of on my body.

          17   Q.  Was the major part of your upper body without a shirt

          18       on?

          19   A.  It was, yes.

          20   Q.  Did you run anywhere or --

          21   A.  I didn't, sir, no.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  While you were sitting there with

          23       your back to the railings, you were really staring into

          24       the minicab, I suppose, were you?

          25   A.  Generally, all about, sir, of who was round about me.


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           1       At certain points, no doubt I was sort of looking in

           2       that direction, but I couldn't say that I was taking

           3       notice of anything that was -- anything that was

           4       happening around about it.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Taking notice of anything in the cab

           6       or if anybody went into the cab?

           7   A.  Certainly not, sir, no.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  "Certainly not" you didn't take

           9       notice, or you didn't see anybody?

          10   A.  I didn't see anyone going in.

          11   MR STERN:  Approximately how long do you think you were

          12       sitting on the pavement there?

          13   A.  A couple of minutes.  It was not long after -- as we saw

          14       on the video, when the Alpha vehicle was moved, it was

          15       not long after that that I got moved to the Alpha

          16       vehicle.

          17   Q.  I think we can probably see it on the video so I don't

          18       need to ask you about that.

          19           In that time, the time until you were moved, nobody

          20       got in the minicab?

          21   A.  Not to my recollection, no, sir.

          22   Q.  So far as the notes that you made on 4 August are

          23       concerned, you've told us about your understanding of

          24       the nature of the notes that you have to write.  Do you

          25       write the ACPO manual?  Are you responsible for the ACPO


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           1       manual in any way?

           2   A.  Certainly not, sir.

           3   Q.  Is it your --

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would you like to be responsible for

           5       it?

           6   A.  I'm not paid enough to write like that, sir.

           7   MR STERN:  Is it part of your training to write your notes

           8       in the way that you have, that is to say a brief note on

           9       4 August and then a fuller statement on 7 August, in the

          10       circumstances that happened in this case?

          11   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  In relation to your statement on 7 August, that was

          13       eight pages of typed detailed information; is that

          14       right?

          15   A.  I believe so, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  You were asked, I think, to provide further statements

          17       and you did provide further statements, as Mr Thomas

          18       asked you to read out the dates.

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In the very first statement when you

          21       say "I was taken to the ground", were you actually taken

          22       to the ground?

          23   A.  I was assisted to the ground by, I think it was, W39.

          24       As he came to my side and the realisation had hit, that

          25       he turned to me and said -- first of all, they tried to


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           1       reassure me they didn't think I had been hit, and then

           2       I think it was W39 who sort of held the left-hand side

           3       of my t-shirt and said to me "You've got

           4       a nine-millimetre hole through this".  I think, as it

           5       happened, my legs gave way at the time.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's a reassuring thing for him to

           7       say to you!

           8   A.  It was, sir, yes.  When the realisation sort of set in

           9       then, as I described just before the break, of the body

          10       doing its function checks, I remember that, to assist

          11       with that, I was helped to the ground.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          13   MR STERN:  Did you at any time say that you had been shot by

          14       the suspect?

          15   A.  I didn't, sir, no.

          16   Q.  Would that have been possible in the way that he was

          17       facing and you were facing?

          18   A.  In my opinion, sir, no, it would not have done.

          19   Q.  Do you bear any ill will to V53?

          20   A.  Absolutely not, sir.

          21   Q.  Why is that?

          22   A.  I've known V53 for years, even before our time in the

          23       TSTs.  He's a very, very good friend.  We were opposing

          24       numbers on the Tactical Support Teams, got on very well,

          25       spoke on many matters.


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           1   Q.  You're still friends?

           2   A.  We are, sir, yes.

           3   Q.  You, I think, are between 30 and 35.  I don't want to go

           4       into too much detail.

           5   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I do not think that breaches his

           7       anonymity if he tells us how old he is.

           8   MR STERN:  I have given a range.  You graduated, I think, in

           9       2001 and then joined the Metropolitan Police in 2002.

          10   A.  Correct, sir.

          11   Q.  CO19, as I think it then was, in 2005.

          12   A.  Correct, sir.

          13   Q.  TST in 2008?

          14   A.  That's correct.

          15   Q.  Then, as you have told us, you became second in charge.

          16   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Then in, I think, 2012, you passed the assessment to

          18       become a Specialist Firearms Officer, and that's what

          19       you are now?

          20   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          21   MR STERN:  Yes, thank you very much.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Underwood?

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  I have no more questions, thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  That completes your

          25       evidence then.  Thank you very much --


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           1   A.  Thank you very much.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- for assisting the jury.  As I say

           3       to everybody, please do not talk about your evidence

           4       until this matter is all over and done with and you are

           5       able to now leave court with your witness support.

           6   A.  Thank you very much, sir.

           7   MR STERN:  So sorry, there is one matter, may I ask one

           8       matter that I didn't actually ask.  It may be useful.

           9           The height -- are you able to say what the height is

          10       to where the bullet hit the holster on your body?  What

          11       would be that be approximately?

          12   A.  Approximately, I would say it was in the middle of the

          13       holster.

          14   MR STERN:  I beg your pardon, how high in feet from the

          15       ground to your armpit; do you have any idea?

          16   A.  I've not.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If it's important we can always ask

          18       him to measure it and tell us in due course.

          19           There we are, Mr Thomas has every facility

          20       available.

          21   MR THOMAS:  You remember there was a dispute between

          22       6 inches and 12 inches recently.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's do it now if someone could --

          24       either in court or perhaps out of court, but we can

          25       measure it.  But it may be we ought to have his


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           1       measurement.  You are not on the cameras upstairs so no

           2       embarrassment.

           3    (The witness measured himself from the ground to where he

           4                            was shot)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What do you think then, W42?  What

           6       number do we have there?

           7   A.  I think we've got just almost 4 foot, bang on.  4 foot

           8       is just there, sir.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That completes it.  Do you want to

          10       ask any questions regarding the 4 foot to the holster?

          11           Thank you very much we'll ask the cameras be turned

          12       off and you leave court then.

          13   A.  Thank you very much, sir.

          14                      (The witness withdrew)

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, Mr Underwood?

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  W56 next, please.

          17                           W56 (sworn)

          18                   (The witness was anonymised)

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you have a seat firstly --

          20   A.  Thank you, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- then Mr Underwood will ask you

          22       some questions identifying you and so on.

          23                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning, W56.

          25   A.  Good morning, sir.


                                           112
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Could I ask you to look at the list you are about to be

           2       given and look down until you find W56 on there, please?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  Is that your name against it?

           5   A.  It is, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  Thank you.  I want to ask you about the events of

           7       4 August 2011.  At that stage, how long had you been

           8       a Metropolitan Police officer?

           9   A.  16 years, sir.

          10   Q.  How long had you been in CO19?

          11   A.  Eight and a half years at that point.

          12   Q.  Of those eight and a half years how much of that was

          13       spent in TST?

          14   A.  Just over 18 months.

          15   Q.  I think on 4 August of 2011 you were posted as the rear

          16       seat operator in the Alpha car, were you?

          17   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  So you had a Hatton gun --

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  -- as well as your personal Glock and an MP5?

          21   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  To shorten matters, can I ask you whether you have read

          23       the transcripts of evidence of the other officers

          24       describing how intelligence came in at Quicksilver?

          25   A.  Yes I have, sir, yes.


                                           113
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Do you agree with that?

           2   A.  Yes, I do.

           3   Q.  Let's get to the position when you're on the road and

           4       following the vehicle.

           5           First of all, when you were being told about the

           6       minicab, can you recall what colour you were being told

           7       it was?

           8   A.  Yes, the surveillance officer relayed over the radio

           9       that it was a gold colour minicab.

          10   Q.  When you picked it up, first of all, did you trouble to

          11       worry about the colour?

          12   A.  No, sir.

          13   Q.  When did you first see it?  Whereabouts were you,

          14       I should ask?

          15   A.  By the time we caught up with the vehicle it was

          16       stationary in traffic at the top of Blackhorse Road,

          17       just prior to -- I believe it's Forest Road, the

          18       junction there.

          19   Q.  We've heard that when the strike was called, W42

          20       actually asked the driver, in essence, to take his own

          21       time, work out when the traffic was safe for him to call

          22       the strike; were you conscious of that discussion going

          23       on?

          24   A.  No, sir, not in front.  My role as the rear seat

          25       passenger is to be the map reader for the convoy, so


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           1       it's my role to get them from our base to Quicksilver

           2       and then, as it turns out, quick time from Quicksilver

           3       to Leyton.

           4           So it's important that I have the main working

           5       channel on the whole time with me because my head is

           6       down in the map book.  So, yes, I have no doubt there

           7       were discussions between the two about appropriate

           8       places but I didn't hear those.

           9   Q.  Help us on the radios.  We have heard there were two

          10       channels going.  One was what was described as a back to

          11       back set that CO19 officers use; is that right?

          12   A.  Correct.

          13   Q.  The other was the main working channel.  Was that what

          14       everybody on the operation had?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  If you, for example, wanted to say something on either

          17       of those channels, would you have to press a button or

          18       just talk into a mouth piece or what?

          19   A.  It depends what the individual officer has decided to

          20       use.  It's basically a handset, the sort of handset you

          21       see police officers in the street carry.  Into that

          22       handset we can plug in a communications system so we may

          23       wear that handset into a body harness and then there

          24       will be a cable that goes up through the body armour and

          25       then you can have your earpieces in, there's


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           1       a microphone and then, depending on the setup that you

           2       have, there's a small button to press that you can have

           3       in your hand or up by the microphone itself.

           4           Some people prefer to carry the radios as just

           5       a normal radio, normal handset.  So in relation to the

           6       communications that you said, if you wished to say

           7       something on the main working channel you would ask for

           8       permission of the person that's communicating at that

           9       time.  If you wish to say it on our back to back channel

          10       then, no, you would just speak on that, because that's

          11       only between the four vehicles.

          12   Q.  In either event you would have to press something would

          13       you?

          14   A.  Yes, you would have to press a communication -- a PTT.

          15   Q.  Press to talk?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  So let's get to the point then when you first heard the

          18       strike being called.  Were you looking out of the car or

          19       were you still concentrating on maps?

          20   A.  I was concentrating on maps initially because, as I have

          21       said, my role is not only to get them there, but I have

          22       to think about the what ifs.  So I'm looking at the map

          23       continuously throughout the follow because let's say for

          24       instance the subject vehicle were to turn left or right,

          25       I need to look at the options that are available for


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           1       that vehicle.  So where is he going?  If he turns down

           2       a road that leads to a dead end, I'll need to

           3       communicate that to my operator.  If there are a built

           4       up area, schools or an industrial area, then I would

           5       communicate that as well.  So I'm constantly looking at

           6       the map.

           7   Q.  We know that the intelligence was that the vehicle was

           8       on its way to Broadwater Farm so would you have been

           9       looking ahead for the route to that or would you have

          10       just been looking, if you like, a road or so ahead?

          11   A.  I wouldn't have gone probably as far as the Broadwater

          12       Farm Estate.  Certainly, you know, half a page, maybe

          13       a mile or so ahead, to see what is up ahead.  You've

          14       mentioned yourself about the state red side of things.

          15       At that point, we were behind a black BMW X5 and I knew

          16       that, coming up on the left-hand side, was an option

          17       called Jarrow Road so if the subject vehicle was to go

          18       down Jarrow Road, where is that going to go and where is

          19       it going to lead us.  So I'm looking ahead of that, if

          20       that makes sense.

          21   Q.  That's kind thanks.  When strike was called then,

          22       presumably you looked up?

          23   A.  Yes.  Just shortly before that, I was aware that the

          24       black BMW had turned into Jarrow Road.  At that point,

          25       we're now directly behind the subject vehicle.  There's


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           1       little need for me to read the maps anymore so the map

           2       basically gets thrown, if you like, to my left-hand side

           3       and now I'm starting to prepare the Hatton gun because

           4       I intend to deploy the Hatton gun.

           5   Q.  Were you on the offside of the vehicle?

           6   A.  Yes, I was behind the driver.

           7   Q.  What did you see of the stop?

           8   A.  What did I see of the stop.

           9   Q.  Yes, please?

          10   A.  Obviously I was in the Alpha vehicle so the strike was

          11       called, V48, the Alpha vehicle driver, overtook the taxi

          12       and bought that to a stop, and then obviously I deployed

          13       from my vehicle and went to my position, which is to

          14       cover the front offside tyre.

          15   Q.  Can you recall where you were looking as your car

          16       pinched the minicab to a halt?

          17   A.  Well initially, once we start to do the overtake, then

          18       the deployment is imminent, so I'm very cautious of the

          19       fact that, as I step out of the Alpha vehicle I've

          20       actually got a shotgun between my legs.  So what I tend

          21       to do is hold onto the shotgun with one hand, grab the

          22       door handle, the door release, with the right hand, and

          23       then, for -- as the stop goes in, I'm prepared to go

          24       straight out the door.

          25   Q.  What did you do?


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           1   A.  Basically, the stop was initiated, our vehicle came to

           2       a stop, I then deployed from the Alpha vehicle, ran to

           3       the front offside tyre and then my job is to cover the

           4       tyre with the Hatton gun.  Should there be any adverse

           5       movement from the vehicle then I would deploy the Hatton

           6       and basically deflate the tyres, so it could not move

           7       anymore.

           8   Q.  Was your concentration on the minicab as a vehicle, if

           9       you like, as opposed to a minicab as containing

          10       occupants?

          11   A.  Yes and no, really.  I mean, obviously I need to know

          12       where I'm running and I need to know where I'm going to

          13       stop, so I stop near the tyre.  Once I'm there, that's

          14       when I can then take in everything around me and look up

          15       and see everything that's happening around me but my

          16       point of aim must be in a particular place on the tyre.

          17       So I'm running at the vehicle, place it on the tyre and

          18       then I can look up and see what's happening.

          19   Q.  Is this right, that if you use a Hatton gun you actually

          20       have to have it touching the tyre?

          21   A.  Yes, it's not a conventional round.  I don't know if the

          22       ammunition has been explained to you previously but

          23       a normal bullet that you would see on the television is

          24       a lump of lead as such.  The Hatton round itself is

          25       a high melting point wax and lead compound, so it's


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           1       a powder and it has to be extremely close to the tyre to

           2       be effective, in fact almost point blank against the

           3       tyre wall, so that it will pierce of rubber and then it

           4       disperses so that it can't travel anymore.

           5   Q.  Is this also right: it's wrong to use a Hatton round

           6       against as tyre unless the vehicle is actually about to

           7       try to make a break for it?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.  The Hatton gun is a contingency.  When we

           9       deploy around the vehicles you've obviously got people

          10       in front and behind and it's not uncommon for a subject

          11       to attempt to move that vehicle out of the stop and

          12       therefore, to ensure the safety of the officers

          13       deploying, the Hatton is deployed on the tyre and then

          14       it just stops dead.

          15   Q.  Can you recall hearing any sirens during the stop?

          16   A.  Yes, sir, just as the Alpha vehicle was coming into its

          17       position I could hear the two tone horns of a vehicle

          18       behind me.

          19   Q.  Can you recall hearing any shouting either as the stop

          20       was going in or while you were making your way to the

          21       Alpha car -- sorry, to the minicab?

          22   A.  I've obviously myself shouted an armed challenge of

          23       "Armed police" and that is echoed by officers around.

          24       So, yes, I could hear armed police but any more

          25       specifics, no.


                                           120
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So let me take you back to the point where you've got

           2       yourself in position against the tyre and, as you have

           3       told the jury, were then able to have a look.

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Did you see the driver at that stage?

           6   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  Had you seen him before that?

           8   A.  No.

           9   Q.  So at that stage what was the driver doing?

          10   A.  He was actually looking over his left shoulder.  His

          11       hands were on the steering wheel and, if I can just

          12       demonstrate for you (indicates), he's looking round over

          13       his left shoulder towards the rear of the taxi.

          14   Q.  Did you follow his gaze?

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  What did you see?

          17   A.  I could see through the windscreen of the taxi and

          18       through the open door on the nearside towards the

          19       pavement.

          20   Q.  Did you see Mr Duggan?

          21   A.  No, sir.

          22   Q.  Did you see any action at all through that gap?

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  We've already heard that one of the commands if you

          25       can't see a subject's hands is "Show me your hands, show


                                           121
 

 

 


           1       me your hands".  You can you could see the hands of the

           2       taxi driver?

           3   A.  Yes I could.

           4   Q.  Did that satisfy you that he wasn't a threat?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  Did it concern you he wasn't looking at you?

           7   A.  Well, what concerned me initially was that I was on my

           8       own, which is unusual.  Normally, officers would deploy

           9       to the driver's side, so I was aware that something was

          10       happening on the far side but what was happening

          11       I didn't know.  I couldn't see anybody else.

          12   Q.  What happened next?

          13   A.  Well, shortly after I'd reached the car, and it is only

          14       a few moments, R68 came round to the driver's side of

          15       the car, he opened the driver's door and ordered the

          16       driver out onto the ground.  So the driver gets out, he

          17       slowly moves down onto the floor, lays down onto his

          18       stomach and then I close the driver's door and move in

          19       and handcuff him.

          20   Q.  R68 came from the back of the minicab, did he?

          21   A.  Yes, he did, yes.

          22   Q.  While all that was going on, did you hear any shots?

          23   A.  No, I've described in my statement that I heard what --

          24       almost a cracking and popping sound, is how I've

          25       described it, as two distinct different noises, and


                                           122
 

 

 


           1       I thought that the Hatton gun on the rear nearside had

           2       been deployed.  That's what I thought the sounds were

           3       that I heard.

           4   Q.  So you had no reason to believe anybody had been shot;

           5       is that right?

           6   A.  Not at that point.

           7   Q.  Did you become aware that anybody had been shot at some

           8       point?

           9   A.  Once I had handcuffed the driver, I could then see along

          10       the rear of the taxi towards the pavement and I was

          11       aware that officers were starting to remove the clothing

          12       of a male lying on the floor, and that's when I believed

          13       that he'd been shot.

          14   Q.  Did you know who had shot him?

          15   A.  No, sir.

          16   Q.  Did you know that, at that stage, there were only two

          17       people in the minicab?

          18   A.  No, sir.

          19   Q.  Did you become aware that W42 had been shot?

          20   A.  Yes.  After I was aware that the gentleman was on the

          21       floor and that his clothing was being removed, I left

          22       R68 and the driver, I ran to the rear of the Alpha

          23       vehicle and took out a first aid kit with a view of

          24       moving round to the nearside onto the pavement to give

          25       that to the officers that were removing the male's


                                           123
 

 

 


           1       clothing.

           2           It was at that point I realised that they had

           3       a first aid kit and my colleague W42 was lying on the

           4       floor and I stopped and basically helped him.

           5   Q.  Was he being attended to at all?

           6   A.  There were officers around him but, at the time that

           7       I ran to him, he was actually laying on the floor

           8       topless, you know, just on his own really.

           9   Q.  Did you go to the minicab at all?

          10   A.  Did I go to the minicab?

          11   Q.  Into the minicab?

          12   A.  No, sir, no.

          13   Q.  Did you know that a gun had been found?

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  We've heard that you're the officer who went with W42 to

          16       Homerton Hospital; is that right?

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  Then back from there to Leman Street?

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  It took quite some time to get sorted out at the

          21       hospital, did it?

          22   A.  Yes.  We had a few issues at the hospital.  That was

          23       more -- what's the word?  I'm trying to think of the

          24       word now.  Correspondence type of issues, technical

          25       issues with the computers rather than him.


                                           124
 

 

 


           1   Q.  What he told us was something to do with him using his

           2       anonymity, if you like?

           3   A.  Yes, basically, when we got to the hospital, obviously

           4       the nursing staff want to know who he is so they can put

           5       his details into the system and it was how were we going

           6       to try and put an entry on the records without

           7       mentioning names and that became a bit of an issue

           8       basically.  Supervisors had to be called to try and sort

           9       that out.

          10   Q.  Now, let's take this in stages.  I had asked you whether

          11       you knew how the male on the ground had got shot and

          12       also how many people there had been in the minicab?  You

          13       told us that you didn't know the answers to those while

          14       you were at the scene.  Did you at any stage after that

          15       ask, for example W42, what had gone on, what had

          16       happened?

          17   A.  No, sir.  I know that may seem odd but he was clearly in

          18       shock, you know.  I've known W42 for the best part of

          19       probably nine years.  He was very pale at that moment in

          20       time.  When he was on the floor, my initial concern with

          21       him was to get him off the floor and to sit him in the

          22       vehicle.  But, no, I didn't ask him what had happened

          23       and I didn't know how he had been hit at all.

          24   Q.  When you got back to the base at Leman Street you

          25       rejoined the other officers, did you?


                                           125
 

 

 


           1   A.  We did, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Again, did you not ask somebody "Who shot who here, what

           3       happened?"

           4   A.  No, sir I didn't.

           5   Q.  Why not?

           6   A.  It's just -- there's no need to ask really.  What's

           7       happened has happened.  You know, the officers

           8       themselves would be able to justify actions that took

           9       place at the scene.  It's not my position to ask

          10       questions of officers back at the station.

          11   Q.  But was this the first time you had been involved in

          12       a shooting at all?

          13   A.  Yes.  Of a police officer or an individual?

          14   Q.  Either.

          15   A.  I haven't been at a police shooting, no.

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's all I want to ask, thank you very

          17       much.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, Mr Underwood.

          19           Yes, Mr Thomas.

          20                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          21   MR THOMAS:  Good afternoon, W56.  I represent Mark Duggan's

          22       loved ones.

          23   A.  Sir, I can just hear you, but good afternoon to you.

          24   Q.  Can you just help me with this: you were tasked to take

          25       some photographs, weren't you?


                                           126
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  Why was that?

           3   A.  Why was I asked?

           4   Q.  Yes.

           5   A.  I don't know why, specifically, I was asked to take

           6       photographs.

           7   Q.  Help us with this: what was the purpose behind taking

           8       photographs?

           9   A.  There was no specific purpose, sir, rather than to

          10       assist later on with things like vehicle positioning,

          11       et cetera.

          12   Q.  Who asked you to take photographs?

          13   A.  I went to the Bravo vehicle and got the stills camera

          14       and then conferred with V59 and he said to me "Yes, take

          15       photographs".

          16   Q.  So before V59 said anything to you, you went to get the

          17       stills camera off your own initiative?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  When you went to get the camera off your own initiative

          20       before you went to V59, what was in your head as to what

          21       might need to be photographed?

          22   A.  There was nothing specific, sir.  You know, I was aware

          23       that Q68 -- sorry, Q63 -- had started videoing the scene

          24       and that made me think, well, I know there's a stills

          25       camera in there as well and maybe that will assist if


                                           127
 

 

 


           1       I took some still photographs of the scene as well.

           2   Q.  Yes.  So it was in your head that it might be a good

           3       idea to take photographs of the scene?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  Now, you know that it's not appropriate to go into the

           6       vehicle; would you agree?

           7   A.  Into the?

           8   Q.  The minicab.

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  But did you take photographs of the minicab?

          11   A.  Only in so far as the positioning of the cab, I believe

          12       from the front side -- so in front of the Alpha vehicle,

          13       looking back towards the control vehicle, there is

          14       a photograph of that.

          15   Q.  Help me with this: it's perfectly possible to take

          16       a photo of the inside of the minicab without going into

          17       it, isn't it?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Did you?

          20   A.  No.

          21   Q.  Why not?

          22   A.  Well, obviously at some point police photographers could

          23       come down to the scene and it would all be photographed

          24       down there.

          25   Q.  But at some point police photographers were going to


                                           128
 

 

 


           1       come to the scene in any event and take photographs of

           2       scene, of which you were taking?

           3   A.  Yes, but at that point a lot of the stills photographs

           4       were taken of the first aid that was being given as

           5       well.  Obviously, that's something that cannot be

           6       replicated later.

           7   Q.  No, I accept that but taking photographs of the inside

           8       of the vehicle at the time is also something that cannot

           9       be replicated because then you would have a record --

          10       digital camera, isn't it?

          11   A.  I believe it is, yes.

          12   Q.  So you would have a digital record of how the inside of

          13       the vehicle was at the time of the hard stop:

          14       indisputable.

          15   A.  That's correct, sir.

          16   Q.  But you didn't do it?

          17   A.  No, I had no cause to do that.

          18   Q.  You had no cause to get the camera.  Nobody asked you,

          19       you were doing this off your own initiative.

          20   A.  Yes, sir, I was trying to be helpful.

          21   Q.  You didn't think it would be helpful to take

          22       a photograph of the inside of the vehicle?

          23   A.  Not specifically, no.

          24   Q.  Let me move on.  So there you are with the camera, did

          25       anybody tell you "We found a gun"?


                                           129
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, sir.

           2   Q.  Because let's be clear on this, you don't leave the

           3       scene until, I think, it was something like 18.50 when

           4       you accompany W42 to the hospital; is that right?

           5   A.  That's correct, sir.

           6   Q.  So you are at the scene with camera nearby or in hand at

           7       the time the gun is found but nobody tells the

           8       photographer "Oh look, we've found the gun"; is that

           9       right?

          10   A.  That appears to be the case, sir, yes.

          11   Q.  The gun would be something important to photograph,

          12       wouldn't it, would you agree, and where it's found?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  People saw you wandering around taking photographs, did

          15       they not?

          16   A.  Sir, I cannot say whether everybody was aware of me

          17       taking photographs.

          18   Q.  You were not taking photographs surreptitiously, were

          19       you?

          20   A.  No.

          21   Q.  No.  But nobody asked you to take a photograph: "Look

          22       we've found the gun!"

          23   A.  No.

          24   Q.  No.  Just one final question for you, W56, what did you

          25       hear just before you heard the what I think you


                                           130
 

 

 


           1       described as popping sounds?

           2   A.  What did I hear just prior to that?

           3   Q.  Yes.

           4   A.  Only would have been challenges from other officers.

           5   Q.  Challenges from other officers?

           6   A.  "Armed police".

           7   Q.  You see, to be clear about this, you're at this point

           8       right by the minicab, aren't you?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  You are right by the minicab, you're in a position to

          11       hear the shouts and warnings, aren't you?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  Just before the popping sound, and you can refresh your

          14       memory from your statement if you wish, is there any

          15       suggestion that you hear anybody saying or shout "He's

          16       reaching"?

          17   A.  I haven't heard anybody shout that, sir.

          18   MR THOMAS:  Thank you, that's all I ask you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Let's see if there are any

          20       questions from Mr Keith?

          21   MR KEITH:  No, thank you.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

          23   MR BUTT:  No, thank you, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

          25   MR GLASSON:  No.


                                           131
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern?

           2                      Questions by MR STERN

           3   MR STERN:  Two matters if I may.  The first is this: the

           4       photographs you took go from CE077 and to CE0100, they

           5       are marked, and they are all first aid photographs or

           6       related to first aid.

           7   A.  Sir, I've only seen them once, I believe, and I can't

           8       recall exactly what's in them but I'm going to take your

           9       word for it.

          10   Q.  One of them relates to the taxi driver.  Obviously if

          11       I have this wrong other people can tell me but I am not

          12       going to put them up because they are obviously

          13       medically sensitive.  The taxi driver is at 84.

          14           The only other matter I want to ask you is this.

          15       You did make a plan and perhaps we can have this up, at

          16       269.  First of all, is this your plan?

          17   A.  Yes, sir, it is.

          18   Q.  We know the plan is a standard plan but various boxes

          19       were added by individual officers and you have added

          20       where you were, just so we have a visual picture of it.

          21       W56, you are by the front offside or roadside, tyre of

          22       the minicab?

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  What does "A" denote?

          25   A.  "8" (sic) is the area in which I saw the male on the


                                           132
 

 

 


           1       floor being attended to.

           2   Q.  "W42", I think that speaks for itself.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   MR STERN:  Thank you very much.

           5               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are not the only one with

           7       a Hatton gun, as we have heard, but when you heard the

           8       noises you thought there was someone letting off

           9       a Hatton gun, where, on the nearside rear?

          10   A.  No, sir.  Basically, the Alpha Hatton officer would

          11       deploy to the front offside tyre, if that makes sense,

          12       the front right-hand side tyre.

          13   MR STERN:  Where we can see you on the plan?

          14   A.  Yes, sir.  Then the Charlie Hattoner sits on the

          15       opposite side of the vehicle, so they sit behind the

          16       passenger, so that they can deploy to the rear nearside

          17       tyre.  So effectively, if you had a situation where

          18       a vehicle was trying to move, you've now got one front

          19       tyre and one rear tyre Hattoners that are in a position

          20       to deploy them on the tyres there.

          21   MR STERN:  That was W70 so and you will remember that he had

          22       the Hatton gun and decided --

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not to bother.

          24   MR STERN:  -- not to bother -- not quite the way he put it,

          25       but yes.


                                           133
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, he didn't need to.

           2           Thank you very much, Mr Stern.

           3           Mr Underwood, any further questions.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much indeed then,

           6       that completes your evidence.  You're free now to go.

           7   A.  Thank you very much.

           8                      (The witness withdrew)

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Sir, we have four further witnesses today,

          10       all of whom will be fairly short, I hope.  But all of

          11       whom are giving evidence under their own name, so the

          12       court will need to be reconfigured for openness.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So it would be convenient for us

          14       then to break now and start at 2 o'clock.  Are we back

          15       on good timetable?

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  We are indeed.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's very good for us to know and

          18       we will be back in open court at that stage.  So thank

          19       you very much then, members of the jury, for -- just

          20       before we go, I keep being reminded and I keep

          21       forgetting, that there are some replacement documents

          22       for the jury bundles; is that right?

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  There are some photographs, which were

          24       referred to yesterday, to go in.  I think they are

          25       around the 19A sort of area.


                                           134
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's deal with that now then.

           2       Firstly, the photographs.  Those you are proposing to go

           3       behind divider 18, is it?  Or 19?

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Jury bundle page 19 rather than C19.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, in the jury bundle.  Let's

           6       put those in.  They go behind divider 1.

           7   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's right.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At page 19 onwards.  Thank you.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  These are photographs taken by the police

          10       helicopter that turned up; the ASU as we keep hearing it

          11       called.

          12           Sir, the other matter to go in is: if you recall W70

          13       having waived privilege over the note of the interview

          14       he had with his solicitor.  Very kindly, his legal team

          15       typed up a copy of that interview over yesterday

          16       lunchtime and there was one typo in it.

          17           It's about the sixth line:

          18           "I got out the same time as ..."

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Rather than the word "side".

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Exactly.  So we have, very kindly, been given

          21       copies of that that have been retyped with the typo out.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So everyone can replace that page;

          23       it's behind our divider 17.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes, it is.  (Handed)

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are, a bit of admin done.


                                           135
 

 

 


           1       If you want to discard the earlier page, feel free to do

           2       so and give it to the jury bailiff.  If not, just keep

           3       it in there.  If you've written on it, just keep it in

           4       your bundle.

           5           Thank you very much indeed then, members of the

           6       jury.  If you would like to go, I'll ask for the cameras

           7       to be turned off at this stage.  Thank you very much.

          12   (12.55 pm)

          13                     (The short adjournment)

          14   (2.00 pm)

          17                  (In the presence of the jury)

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Yes, what's

          19       the position now, Mr Underwood?

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Police Constable Green, please.

          21            POLICE CONSTABLE RICHARD GREEN (affirmed)

          22   A.  Police Constable Richard Green, 4457CO, attached to the

          23       Specialist Firearms Command at Leman Street Police

          24       Station.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Have a seat,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                           136
 

 

 


           1       would you.  Thank you.

           2                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Constable, my name's

           4       Underwood and I'm counsel to the Inquest and I'll start

           5       the questions today.

           6           Are you an Authorised Firearms Officer?

           7   A.  Yes, I am, sir.

           8   Q.  Were you an authorised firearms officer in August 2011?

           9   A.  Yes, I was, sir.

          10   Q.  On that day were you on duty in an armed response

          11       vehicle?

          12   A.  I was.  I believe I start duty at 9.00 pm that evening,

          13       sir.

          14   Q.  Did you have to go to the scene of the shooting we've

          15       been dealing with in the Ferry Lane area that evening?

          16   A.  Yes, I did, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  What was the purpose of you going there?

          18   A.  I was informed by Chief Inspector Dowe that a firearm

          19       had been recovered at this scene and the purpose of us

          20       attending was basically to make this firearm safe, so it

          21       could be packaged and handled by other people.

          22   Q.  I'll come to the detail in a minute but, in short, did

          23       you go to where a gun was on the grass and take the sock

          24       off it and make it safe?

          25   A.  Yes, I did, sir, yes.


                                           137
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Can we have a look, please, at some photographs.  They

           2       are in the jury bundle behind divider 1.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That will be provided for you, or it

           4       may be down in that red file there in front of you.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Page 16 to start with, it's a terribly murky

           6       photograph.  Doing the best you can through the gloom,

           7       is that what the gun looked like when you got there?

           8   A.  Yes, sir, correct, it's obviously not a great photo but

           9       yes.

          10   Q.  So if we can get this clear, there are some rips in the

          11       sock where we can see the muzzle pointing through, can

          12       we?

          13   A.  Yes, I believe so, sir.  At the far end, you can see

          14       some what looks like chipped paintwork, I would suggest,

          15       and that, I believe, is the muzzle of the firearm, sir.

          16   Q.  Was anything else of the gun actually visible through

          17       the sock?

          18   A.  The cocking hammer, at the rear of the firearm by the

          19       pistol grip, was also visible.

          20   Q.  Right.  Our education about guns develops as we go

          21       along.  We haven't yet come across a cocking lever on a

          22       self-loading pistol.  We have the gun here and can you

          23       have a look at it, please, wearing gloves?  (Handed)

          24   A.  Yes, of course, sir.

          25   Q.  While you are doing that, let me be clear the sock has


                                           138
 

 

 


           1       been on and off this gun, so you can help us with

           2       whether the sock is in the right position, if you would.

           3       Please don't assume it is.

           4           Take it from us that is the gun you saw.

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  Is that how the sock was positioned, as best you can

           7       remember, or should it be repositioned in some way?

           8   A.  I would suggest it was pulled tighter than this, sir.

           9       (indicates).  So it was down -- (Pause)

          10           If you can see, I don't know, it's quite difficult

          11       to do so, but the sock was pulled tighter.  Like this.

          12       (indicates), sir.

          13   Q.  We can see some sort of mechanism sticking out of the

          14       back, can we?

          15   A.  Yes, but this cocking hammer was --

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the cocking hammer, is it?

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  I'll ask you more about that when you take

          18       the sock off in a minute but that's what was visible to

          19       you, was it?

          20   A.  Yes, you can see the cocking hammer here, a safety lever

          21       here and a hole and the muzzle was exposed at the front

          22       here, sir (indicates).

          23   Q.  I wonder if somebody could very kindly, holding it with

          24       their hands under the plastic bag, show it round the

          25       jury?


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           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That would be useful, yes, thank

           2       you.

           3              (The weapon was shown around the jury)

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can we have it down counsel's bench as well.

           5                (The weapon was shown to counsel)

           6           I'm going to ask for the docu-cam to be used in a

           7       minute so we can take a picture of this.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  I have caught everybody by surprise asking

          10       for the docu-cam to go on.

          11              (The weapon was handed to the witness)

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Make sure, Mr Green, it appears in

          13       the way you want it to appear.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Officer, are you happy that represents, as

          15       best you can recall, the way it looked.

          16   A.  As best I can recall, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Thank you very much.  If we can capture that, that would

          18       be perfect.  (Pause)

          19           Officer, while we're exploring the technical

          20       possibilities, let me continue asking you some questions

          21       about the gun itself.

          22           You took it out of the sock, did you --

          23   A.  Yes, I did, sir, yes.

          24   Q.  -- and made it safe?

          25   A.  Yes, that's correct.


                                           140
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I think we are now able to do it.  No?

           2           It's okay, we tried.  I want to ask you about the

           3       mechanism of this gun.  When you load a self-loading

           4       pistol like this you start by putting shells,

           5       cartridges, in the magazine, do you.

           6   A.  That's correct, yes.

           7   Q.  You then slide the magazine into the pistol grip?

           8   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

           9   Q.  What do you have to do from there in order to put it in

          10       a state where you can fire it?

          11   A.  The normal -- or the standard procedure would be that

          12       the bullets would be in the top of the magazine.  You

          13       would then pull what's called the slide, which is the

          14       top of the self-loading pistol.  You pull that back and

          15       let that go and that would then push forward and,

          16       essentially, would strip the top round off the magazine

          17       and place it into the chamber, which once you then pull

          18       the trigger, the firing pin would then hit the casing of

          19       the bullet and the bullet would then come out of the

          20       barrel.

          21   Q.  This gun had a cocking lever, we have just heard.  What

          22       did that do?

          23   A.  Normally, the cocking lever or the cocking hammer will

          24       assist the firing pin in order to make a strike on the

          25       casing and fire the bullet.  However, without forensic


                                           141
 

 

 


           1       tests I wouldn't be able to confirm anything like that.

           2       That's the normal procedure but I wouldn't know with

           3       this firearm, sorry.

           4   Q.  To use it, would you have to pull the cocking lever back

           5       yourself or was that automatic?

           6   A.  Different firearms work in different ways, sir, and

           7       without actually doing it I couldn't answer that

           8       question, unfortunately.

           9   Q.  This had a safety catch, did it?

          10   A.  It did have a safety lever on it, yes, sir.

          11   Q.  Let's imagine you start with the position where you have

          12       just put a magazine in, with one or more rounds in the

          13       magazine.  In order to get the gun ready to fire, first

          14       of all you have to slide back the top, do you, and let

          15       that go?

          16   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          17   Q.  So that puts a bullet in the chamber and it cocks it,

          18       does it, or might cock it depending --

          19   A.  Presumably it would, but I wouldn't like to say for

          20       definite, sir.

          21   Q.  What about the safety catch?  Is that automatically on

          22       then or not?

          23   A.  No, that would be activated manually by whoever's

          24       handling the firearm, sir.

          25   Q.  When you say "activated manually", you would not have to


                                           142
 

 

 


           1       do any more to the safety catch once you have cocked the

           2       gun, is that it?

           3   A.  It would not be set in any other way than what the

           4       person holding the gun would do, ie pulling the slide

           5       back would not set the safety lever.

           6   Q.  Right.  If the safety is on before you slide it back it

           7       stays on, if it's off before you slide it back it stays

           8       off, is that it?

           9   A.  That is the normal working procedure.  However, again,

          10       sir, I would not know with this particular firearm.

          11   Q.  If we gave it back to you could you test these things?

          12   A.  I could have a look at it but it sort of depends on

          13       a forensic testing of it, sir.

          14   Q.  Let's have a look.  I do not mean to put you on the

          15       spot, officer but let's see what we can do.  (Handed)

          16           If you take it out of the sock then, please.  Take

          17       it from us, it's still made safe.

          18   A.  I am just going to point it down to the floor.

          19   Q.  Please do.

          20   A.  Yes, the safety lever in essence is part of the slide.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you show it to us?  Stand up.

          22   A.  Yes, sir.  Essentially, this is the safety lever

          23       (indicates) on the sides here, both left side of the gun

          24       and the right side of the gun, and essentially that

          25       forms part of the slide, which is the part I am pulling


                                           143
 

 

 


           1       back now.  So that would be manually put to safe or to

           2       fire by whoever's operating this firearm, sir.

           3   Q.  If that gun were in my hand and I had -- I knew there

           4       was a bullet in the magazine, say, and I wanted to use

           5       it to shoot, all I would have to do is pull the slide

           6       back and let it go and then pull the trigger; is that

           7       it?

           8   A.  Yes, sir, correct.

           9   Q.  When the gun was in the sock, could you see whether all

          10       of that was possible or not?

          11   A.  I would doubt it, sir.

          12   Q.  Because the sock would get in the way of sliding the top

          13       back?

          14   A.  Essentially, even if it wasn't in a sock, sir, you

          15       wouldn't be able to see what condition the firearm would

          16       be in, whether it would be able to be fired or not,

          17       without looking at it closely.

          18   Q.  We may be at cross purposes.  There are two

          19       possibilities here.  One is, when the gun is in the

          20       sock, whether you could tell what state it was in, and

          21       you are saying, no, you could not say whether it was

          22       ready to fire.

          23   A.  No way, no way, sir.

          24   Q.  The second question is: if you didn't know whether it

          25       was ready to fire what would you do?  If you wanted to


                                           144
 

 

 


           1       fire it, obviously you could pull the trigger and see

           2       what happens but is there a better way?

           3   A.  Short of playing about with it, sir, and having a look,

           4       you know, it would completely depend on the condition of

           5       the weapon, whether it was loaded/unloaded.  If you

           6       didn't know then you would check the magazine whether

           7       there were any rounds if it.  Then you would, like

           8       I say, rack it, in order to chamber a round.

           9   Q.  Let's do this in order.  Somebody gives you a gun you

          10       don't know what state it's in.  To see whether there are

          11       any rounds in the magazine, you would drop the magazine

          12       presumably, would you?

          13   A.  That's correct.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you do that for us?

          15   A.  The magazine is not with the firearm, at the moment,

          16       sir.

          17   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, that's separately exhibit wrapped.  So

          18       what would you do in order to drop the magazine?

          19   A.  If I can stand up and show you.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.

          21   A.  The magazine would be seated in a pistol grip of the

          22       weapon here.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you point that round so I can

          24       see it as well.

          25   A.  In the bottom here, where there's the hole (indicates).


                                           145
 

 

 


           1       There's a hole there.  You would press the magazine

           2       release button, which I believe is this button here on

           3       the side (indicates) by the trigger and that would then

           4       drop the magazine out.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That would show you if you have any

           6       bullets in it?

           7   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  That shows whether you have bullets in the

           9       magazine.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  How would you know if there was one in the chamber?

          12   A.  By pulling the slide back and having a look inside the

          13       breech, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You can have a look in, can you?

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could you do that for us again?

          17   A.  You pull the slide back like that and look in the --

          18       inside here, you can see if there's a bullet ready to be

          19       fired.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It would be lying there?

          21   A.  Which would be inside, yes, sir.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Subject to the sock being over it,

          23       obviously.

          24   A.  Yes, of course, sir.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  Help us with this, with the way you saw it


                                           146
 

 

 


           1       with the sock on, would it be possible to do that?

           2   A.  It would be possible -- in order to, you mean --

           3   Q.  To see in the chamber?

           4   A.  To see in the chamber?  No, it would not be possible.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You could feel it, I suppose, could

           6       you, if you pulled it back with the sock on and put your

           7       finger in.

           8   A.  You could, sir, I would imagine but, without having

           9       tried it, I would not be able to confirm that, sir.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  With this, I think there was a fault, was

          11       there not, the ratchet would not hold back?

          12   A.  Yes, normally on self-loading pistols, there's normally

          13       a locking lever which will lock the slide back.

          14       I believe this weapon did have one of those but it

          15       wasn't working, it wouldn't hold it back, sir.

          16   Q.  In order to feel inside you would have to hold the

          17       pistol grip with one hand, pull the slide back with

          18       another and with your third hand feel in?

          19   A.  Luckily, you can hold it back with one hand.

          20   Q.  Right.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What did you do to make it safe?

          22   A.  Essentially, sir, removed the magazine.  You always

          23       remove the ammunition or the feed of ammunition first.

          24       So that way I knew no more ammunition was going to be

          25       going in --


                                           147
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So the first thing you did when you

           2       took it out of the sock was to take the magazine out?

           3   A.  You always remove the source of the ammunition first,

           4       sir.  Then it was a case of checking the breech or

           5       checking the chamber to see if there was projectile

           6       inside there.  Once I had satisfied myself that there

           7       wasn't anything in there, I then declared that the

           8       firearm was safe and handed it over to the exhibits

           9       officer at the scene, sir.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Just cutting back on that a moment, there was

          11       a round in the magazine, was there?

          12   A.  There was a round at the top of the magazine, yes, sir.

          13   Q.  So, again, in order to put that gun in a state where it

          14       could be fired, the slide needed to be racked back, did

          15       it?

          16   A.  Presuming it would work, I would imagine so, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Having made the gun safe, what did you do with it?

          18   A.  Handed it over to the exhibits officer at the scene who

          19       then packaged it, I believe, and then I left, sir.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thank you very much, Officer, you may be

          21       asked other questions.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Straw?

          23                      Questions by MR STRAW

          24   MR STRAW:  Thank you, sir.  Officer Green, I represent the

          25       family.


                                           148
 

 

 


           1   A.  Sir.

           2   Q.  Is it right that before you touched the gun that we've

           3       seen you put on forensic suits and gloves, and so on?

           4   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir, I did.

           5   Q.  It might sound completely obvious but why do you do

           6       that?

           7   A.  To, obviously, as best we can, guard against any

           8       cross-contamination issues and preserve as much

           9       forensics on the firearm as possible.

          10   Q.  So things like if there's DNA, fingerprints, fibres,

          11       whatever, by doing that you prevent there being any

          12       contamination?

          13   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

          14   Q.  Would you have expected then that from the moment the

          15       police found the gun until you came along with your

          16       forensic suit, that no one would have touched it?

          17   A.  I would imagine that would have been the case but

          18       obviously I cannot confirm that, sir.

          19   Q.  To your knowledge though did anyone touch it?

          20   A.  To my knowledge, nobody touched it, it was how it was

          21       found in situ, sir.

          22   Q.  Would it be right to say you took care -- because of

          23       wearing those forensic suits, you took care to make sure

          24       there was no cross-contamination?

          25   A.  To the best of my ability, sir, yes.


                                           149
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You were asked by Mr Underwood a few questions about

           2       what would happen -- how you would check whether there

           3       was a bullet in the chamber of the gun in this type of

           4       firearm.  If you had a gun like that and you weren't

           5       sure whether there was a bullet in the chamber, could

           6       you simply pull the top slide lever back and let it go

           7       to ensure one got in there?

           8   A.  Sorry, sir, could you repeat the question?

           9   Q.  You are not sure if there's a bullet in the chamber, so

          10       you're not sure whether there's one only in the

          11       magazine, nothing in the chamber, and you want one to

          12       get into the chamber, can you simply pull the top slide

          13       over back to ensure that one gets into the chamber?

          14   A.  Normally, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  If there was one already there, would pulling the top

          16       slide lever back have any problems, would that cause the

          17       gun to fire?

          18   A.  I can't say for definite, sir.  Each firearm works in

          19       a different way.  I wouldn't be able to tell with this

          20       particular firearm because all I did was make it safe,

          21       sir.  I didn't actually check it for how it works or --

          22       that would be down to, forensic scientists

          23       unfortunately.

          24   Q.  Okay.  You noted that there was one round in the

          25       magazine of this gun when it was found?


                                           150
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           2   Q.  Was there a round in the chamber?

           3   A.  No, there was no round in the chamber.

           4   Q.  If I had had that gun in my right hand, in the condition

           5       you found it in, so safety catch off, one round in the

           6       magazine, no round in the chamber, my left hand was not

           7       touching the gun, and I pulled the trigger, what would

           8       happen?

           9   A.  I suspect nothing, sir.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The safety catch was off, was it?

          11   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          13   MR STRAW:  Is that because there's no round in the chamber

          14       and so, until one gets into the chamber, which you have

          15       to do by sliding the top bit backwards and forwards, the

          16       gun is not ready to fire?

          17   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          18   Q.  Holding that type of gun in your right hand, can you

          19       slide the chamber with your right hand as well?

          20   A.  I would imagine it would be quite difficult, sir.

          21   Q.  The obvious thing to do, I suggest, is to use your left

          22       hand and slide the chamber back and forwards with that?

          23   A.  That would be standard practice, sir.

          24   Q.  What was the condition of the gun like?

          25   A.  As in the exterior or aesthetics of it, sir, is that


                                           151
 

 

 


           1       what you're alluding to?

           2   Q.  All of it really.  The gun generally, what was the

           3       condition of it?

           4   A.  I've considered it, as I'm sure you have all seen, as in

           5       pretty poor condition, paintwork is obviously all

           6       chipped, it doesn't look like it's been very well cared

           7       for.

           8   Q.  You mentioned already that a lever was faulty.

           9   A.  That's correct sir.

          10   Q.  Did you also find, when you looked inside the gun, that

          11       there were lots of metallic shards in there?

          12   A.  Yes, I did, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Is it possible those metallic shards could interfere

          14       with the gun's working order?

          15   A.  I couldn't answer that, sir, unfortunately.

          16   Q.  We've talked about the bullet in the magazine.  Is it

          17       right that there was a strike mark on the back of that

          18       bullet?

          19   A.  Yes.  I recall a light mark, slightly off-centre, on the

          20       back of the casing that was found in the magazine.

          21   Q.  Would that indicate that the bullet has previously been

          22       unsuccessfully fired?

          23   A.  I couldn't say.  It could have come from anything, sir.

          24   Q.  Is it right that you, at the scene, fired off the action

          25       of the firearm?


                                           152
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  After I'd satisfied myself that the firearm was in

           2       fact safe, I did fire off the action, in order to ease

           3       springs, as we call it, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That means that you pull the

           5       trigger?

           6   A.  Yes, sir, essentially, yes.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just as you did just now?

           8   A.  I didn't actually pull the trigger but I can do, sir, if

           9       you so request.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'll let someone else invite you to

          11       do that.

          12   MR STRAW:  The next question may help with that.  What

          13       effect did it have when you pulled the trigger.

          14   A.  From what I recall at the scene, it went click and then

          15       I handed it over to the exhibits officer, sir.

          16   Q.  Would it be right to say it had no effect?

          17   A.  Well, it wasn't loaded so I should hope not, sir.

          18   Q.  I'm only asking because we're going to hear from

          19       Mr Hughes later, who says this:

          20           "PC Green fired off the action of the firearm.  This

          21       caused no effect."

          22           Would that be right?

          23   A.  No effect as in it wouldn't have fired, yes, sir, that's

          24       correct.

          25   MR STRAW:  Thanks very much.


                                           153
 

 

 


           1   A.  Thank you, sir.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, thank you.  Mr Keith?

           3   MR KEITH:  I think the witness is a Metropolitan Police

           4       witness so I'm supposed to go last.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'll ask Mr Stern.

           6   MR STERN:  Yes, we changed order.

           7                      Questions by MR STERN

           8   MR STERN:  Mr Green, you arrived, I think, after 11 o'clock

           9       at the scene, in the evening?

          10   A.  I believe we got there just before but I think we

          11       actually entered the forensic tent just after 11.00,

          12       sir, that's correct.

          13   Q.  There was a forensic tent and you went into the forensic

          14       tent and on the grass was a black sock in the shape of

          15       a handgun which looked to you like a self-loading

          16       pistol?

          17   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  When you saw it, in the state that it was in, on the

          19       grass there, was there any way of telling from that

          20       whether that was a lethal firearm or not?

          21   A.  No way of telling whatsoever, no, sir.

          22   Q.  Was there any way of telling whether it was loaded with

          23       one or more bullet?

          24   A.  No way of telling at all, sir, no.

          25   Q.  Now, it's not a memory test so it may help you if you


                                           154
 

 

 


           1       look at the statement at CS348.  I do not think it will

           2       be in that file but it will probably come up on the

           3       screen, as we have some clever technology going on here.

           4   A.  I have a copy of that in my pocket.

           5   Q.  Whichever you prefer.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You can read it off there, I should

           7       think.

           8   MR STERN:  That will be much quicker, just the bottom part

           9       of the statement.  What you helpfully set out there is

          10       your view, at the time, of the sock.  So what you say

          11       is:

          12           "I could see the toe end of the sock was ripped and

          13       exposing the muzzle of a black handgun."

          14           So that's as you have shown us, the muzzle being the

          15       front bit --

          16   A.  That's correct, sir.

          17   Q.  -- where the bullet actually comes out?

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  So that was ripped.  When you say ripped, obviously do

          20       you mean did it look like it had been deliberately

          21       ripped or rather worn away?

          22   A.  It looked to me like it had been deliberately ripped,

          23       sir, yes.

          24   Q.  That exposed the muzzle of the handgun as you have told

          25       us:


                                           155
 

 

 


           1           "Also the heel of the sock was ripped exposing

           2       a cocking lever with its action forward."

           3           Forgive me, what's the cocking action, again, just

           4       remind me?

           5   A.  If I can again stand up?

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.

           7   A.  The cocking hammer or lever is this bit at the back

           8       here.  Essentially, it's back at the moment on this

           9       firearm but it was forward.

          10   Q.  Yes.  But the sock -- just dealing with the sock for the

          11       moment.  So we have the front exposed by a rip in the

          12       sock, we have the cocking lever exposed with the rip in

          13       the sock --

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  -- and there was also a rip in the ankle area of the

          16       sock exposing what looked like the safety lever?

          17   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          18   Q.  Right.  So the business end, or the business parts, of

          19       that gun were all exposed by rips in the sock?

          20   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          21   Q.  Now, the safety lever, just help us with that.  Can you

          22       show us where that was?

          23   A.  Again, if I stand up, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please.

          25   A.  The safety lever, essentially, is this little lever at


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           1       the rear by the cocking hammer, and it could can be

           2       operated obviously either by a left or a right hand.

           3   MR STERN:  Just pause a moment, not everyone knows as much

           4       about firearms.  You're a trained firearms officer.

           5       What is a safety lever, what does it actually do?

           6   A.  Essentially, it will stop the trigger being fired if

           7       it's on safe and, if it is on fire, it will allow the

           8       trigger to be fired -- to be pulled, obviously then

           9       firing a casing out of the barrel, sir.

          10   Q.  When you found it at about 11 o'clock or so -- when you

          11       went to see it, rather, on 4 August, what state was the

          12       safety lever?

          13   A.  The safety was to fire, sir.

          14   Q.  So the position of the safety lever itself was in

          15       fire -- on fire mode?

          16   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          17   Q.  Is there a sign on there as to say off or on, in other

          18       words whether you can fire it or not, safety or fire?

          19   A.  Ordinarily on most firearms, there is, but because of

          20       the condition of this one, I couldn't tell.

          21   Q.  You could not tell if there was any marking at all?

          22   A.  No.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You could not see yourself, looking

          24       at it, whether the safety was on or off?

          25   A.  No, sir.


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           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could you put the safety on and off

           2       while holding the trigger, in fact?

           3   A.  You would normally use your thumb like that, sir

           4       (indicates).  To push down, it would be on safe and then

           5       to push forward, so it's in a horizontal position like

           6       that, it's on fire.

           7   MR STERN:  But you, even though you are very experienced as

           8       a firearms officer, couldn't actually tell which way it

           9       was, which was fire and which was safe?

          10   A.  No, sir, that's correct.

          11   Q.  As a result of that, what you did was you actually had

          12       to physically fire the gun to see which was which?

          13   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          14   Q.  So unless you knew the gun and were familiar with it,

          15       you wouldn't know whether it was on fire or safe?

          16   A.  I would suggest that's the same with any firearm, sir,

          17       yes.

          18   Q.  Except some of them have the markings, you tell us, as

          19       to whether it says fire or safety?

          20   A.  Yes, of course, but if you are not used to firearms then

          21       I would suggest even still you may not know because

          22       a lot of the time you have a red or a white symbol that

          23       denotes whether it's to fire or safe, which obviously

          24       may not be familiar to people not used to firearms.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you are familiar, can you


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           1       actually see it, when somebody has a firearm, or do you

           2       have to be close up to the weapon?

           3   A.  I would suggest you would have to be very, very close

           4       handling the firearm yourself to see whether anything

           5       was to fire or not, sir.

           6   MR STERN:  Could you just have a look in the bundle at

           7       page 17 of the photographs.

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  It might be a slightly better photograph than the one we

          10       saw before, 16, of the gun and sock.  Were you present

          11       when that photograph was taken?

          12   A.  Yes, sir.  I removed the sock to that point.

          13   Q.  You moved the sock back?

          14   A.  Yes, sir, I was the one who moved the sock to that point

          15       for the photograph to be taken.

          16   Q.  When you moved the sock, in photograph 17, did you just

          17       move it off the handle?  Is the front part the same as

          18       the sock -- the placement of the sock the same as it was

          19       when you found it?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.  Essentially, this is documenting my work at

          21       the scene and removing the sock.

          22   Q.  I see.  Then if we look to the next one we can see the

          23       sock is off completely?

          24   A.  Yes, sir.

          25   Q.  I see.


                                           159
 

 

 


           1   MR STERN:  I see.  Thank you very much.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Butt?

           3   MR BUTT:  No, thank you, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson?

           5   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

           7                      Questions by MR KEITH

           8   MR KEITH:  I am going to attempt just to bring some of those

           9       threads together, Officer Green.

          10           To fire a lethal projectile from that gun you needed

          11       to have a magazine for there to be a round.  Was there

          12       a magazine in the gun?

          13   A.  Yes, sir, there was.

          14   Q.  Once there was a magazine there needs to be a round in

          15       the magazine for that round to be capable of being

          16       fired.  Was the round in a magazine at the top of the

          17       magazine pushed up towards the top by the mechanism in

          18       the magazine?

          19   A.  Yes, it was, sir.

          20   Q.  There is no point having a round in the magazine if it's

          21       at the bottom of the magazine it needs to be near the

          22       firing mechanism?

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  So there was a magazine and in the magazine was a round

          25       and the round was at the top of the magazine ready to be


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           1       put into the breech, the firing mechanism?

           2   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

           3   Q.  What causes it to go up to the top of the magazine to be

           4       placed into the breech?

           5   A.  As described earlier, sir, pulling the slide back and

           6       letting it go and that will strip the magazine -- strip,

           7       sorry, the casing off the magazine, and place it in the

           8       breech ready to be fired.

           9   Q.  But the round needs to be at the top of the magazine

          10       near the firing mechanism, to be swept off the top of

          11       the sliding lever so that it's then placed into the

          12       chamber?

          13   A.  Yes.  Essentially with a magazine on -- that we

          14       recovered from this firearm, it works on a spring

          15       mechanism, so any amount of rounds will always be at the

          16       top, sir.

          17   Q.  So the spring mechanism was working because the round

          18       had been pushed up to the top of the magazine ready to

          19       be fired?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you could not have had a bullet

          22       at the bottom of the magazine, if there's just one?

          23   A.  Essentially, sir, yes.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If there's just one, it's always at

          25       the top.  Okay.


                                           161
 

 

 


           1   MR KEITH:  Then, you need to be concerned with the safety

           2       lever, the safety lever was, you discovered, off.  That

           3       means to say that the gun was ready to fire.

           4   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

           5   Q.  Once the safety lever is off, it means that the trigger

           6       will move, that if you pull the trigger it will actually

           7       start to commence the firing mechanism, correct?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  So when you carried out your examination of the gun that

          10       evening, when you pulled the trigger, because the safety

          11       was off, the trigger technically fired but, of course,

          12       you had taken out the round by then?

          13   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          14   Q.  During the Crown Court trial, by contrast, when you gave

          15       evidence in the Hutchinson-Foster trial, you showed

          16       didn't you, how when the safety is on, that is to say

          17       the gun is safe, when you pull the trigger it just

          18       doesn't move, it doesn't work?

          19   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you want him to do that now?

          21   MR KEITH:  It's all right, I think we understand the picture

          22       now.

          23           The last point is this: there is a cocking lever at

          24       the back, which you have shown us, but the person who

          25       wants to fire a gun with its round does not need to pull


                                           162
 

 

 


           1       the cocking lever back.  All they need to do is pull the

           2       trigger and the gun will fire, correct?

           3   A.  I couldn't say for definite with this firearm, sir, but

           4       essentially sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

           5   Q.  When you, having taken the round out of the magazine,

           6       reassembled the gun, pulled the slide back and released

           7       it, and fired off the trigger, which is what you told us

           8       that you did, did you have to pull the cocking lever

           9       back with your thumb or did you just pull the trigger?

          10   A.  I just pulled the trigger, sir.

          11   Q.  Do we deduce from that that you don't need to manually

          12       bring the cocking lever back and let it go, all you need

          13       to do is pull the trigger?

          14   A.  From the way I used it that night, that's correct, yes.

          15   Q.  So the only thing that needed to be done to the gun to

          16       allow it to fire was just to pull back the slide at the

          17       top and release it to put a bullet in the chamber?

          18   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          19   Q.  Then it could have been fired?

          20   A.  Yes, sir, I believe so.

          21   Q.  Could it have been fired from inside that sock?

          22   A.  I wouldn't be able to say either way, sir.

          23   Q.  The safety lever was accessible, but in fact the safety

          24       lever was off, the gun was live, yes?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           163
 

 

 


           1   Q.  The muzzle was exposed?

           2   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

           3   Q.  The cocking lever at the back was exposed?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  The sock wouldn't prevent the gun from firing, the

           6       bullet would still come out, wouldn't it?

           7   A.  Again, I wouldn't know if this gun actually worked but

           8       from what you are deducing, assuming it did work then,

           9       yes, sir, it would.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You have to pull the thing back, as

          11       you keep saying, which you haven't done, to see whether

          12       you can actually do that with the sock over it?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just to clear one point which

          15       Mr Keith, because he's dealing with everything, may be

          16       coming onto, that you cannot just pulling the trigger,

          17       each time you have to pull the top, have you, or if you

          18       had a magazine with six bullets in it, can you just pull

          19       it six times to fire six bullets.

          20   A.  Again, sir, I would not be able to say for certain with

          21       this firearm, because I have not tested it, that would

          22       be down to forensic scientists, but a self-loading

          23       pistol, normally every time you pull the trigger, every

          24       time that slide will go back and strip another round

          25       off.  So if you, like you said, sir, had to fire six


                                           164
 

 

 


           1       rounds, you would pull the trigger six times and you

           2       would fire six bullets, sir.

           3   MR KEITH:  But in fact, when you pulled the magazine out,

           4       you saw there was only one round in it?

           5   A.  Yes, that's correct.

           6   Q.  This gun could only have been fired lethally once

           7       because there was only one round in it to be stripped

           8       off the top by this sliding mechanism and placed in the

           9       chamber?

          10   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

          11   Q.  When you, having taken the round out for safety reasons,

          12       made sure the safety was off and the gun was live and

          13       ready to fire, you pulled the trigger, the mechanism

          14       worked, didn't it?

          15   A.  The mechanism of the trigger worked, yes, sir.  That's

          16       correct.

          17   MR KEITH:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood?

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, nothing, thank you.

          20               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I just want to ask one thing.  You

          22       got there and you didn't look at this until after

          23       11 o'clock that night?

          24   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All that time, from what we hear,


                                           165
 

 

 


           1       it's obviously been lying on the grass, at one point it

           2       has a box and a cannabis plant put on top of it.

           3       Obviously, by the time you get there, there's a forensic

           4       tent.

           5   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was the box and the cannabis plant

           7       still there or had someone taken that off?

           8   A.  I don't recall seeing that.  It may well have been there

           9       but I don't recall seeing it.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you went into the forensic tent

          11       I suppose you were expecting to see a gun because that's

          12       why you had been called out?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  How close were you before you really

          15       thought "Yes, that's a gun".

          16   A.  The forensic tent was obviously quite small and

          17       obviously I couldn't see anything from outside of it.

          18       Once I got inside, as soon as I saw the object on the

          19       floor, I was happy that that was a firearm.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  When you picked up the firearm, did

          21       you preserve or do anything to the ground or the grass

          22       immediately underneath it?

          23   A.  I didn't myself, sir, no.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What happened?  Was that marked in

          25       some way, was a marker put down so that --


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           1   A.  I don't actually know, sir, but I imagine that would be

           2       down to the Scenes of Crime Officer that would have

           3       attended after the firearm was made safe by myself.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were there any other marks on the

           5       ground underneath it, could you remember?

           6   A.  I can't recall, sir, no.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I am not having a golfing analogy of

           8       putting some sort of marker down where the ball was, but

           9       nobody did anything like that --

          10   A.  I don't remember seeing a mark.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- or put a square piece of wood

          12       around the place?

          13   A.  No, I didn't remember seeing anything, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Once you picked up the gun, that

          15       piece of grass underneath it, you didn't see anyone

          16       either preserving it or photographing it?

          17   A.  No, sir, I don't recall seeing that.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were there when this photograph

          19       was taken of it in situ?

          20   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct, yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That was the only photograph, as far

          22       as you are aware?

          23   A.  I don't know, sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay, thank you very much.

          25           Sorry Mr Underwood?  I got carried away by asking


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           1       about forensic matters to do preserving the scene of

           2       this nature.  But anything arise?

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  No, thank you.  I hope we'll be able to deal

           4       with those questions with the exhibits officers, and so

           5       on, next week.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I want to, if the jury and I are

           7       going to go back there, as I think the plan is, at the

           8       conclusion of the evidence, hopefully in two or so

           9       weeks' time, I would want the jury to be able to be

          10       shown, we might be able to reconstruct it with the

          11       angles from the plan, exactly where it is suggested that

          12       this gun was.

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.  We do have a replica firearm and the

          14       idea is we will put it in the place.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right, well, there we are, that's

          16       something to look forward to, members of the jury, on

          17       that.  But we'll see how it goes.

          18           Thank you very much, Mr Green, for coming forward to

          19       assist us.  That concludes your evidence.

          20   A.  Thank you.

          21                      (The witness withdrew)

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Can we have PC Hughes next, please.

          23                     PC GARETH HUGHES (sworn)

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Please have

          25       a seat.


                                           168
 

 

 


           1                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Officer, can you give us your name and rank

           3       please?

           4   A.  I am PC Gareth Hughes 4456 attached to CO19 as an ARV

           5       officer.

           6   Q.  I think you've been in court while your colleague has

           7       just been giving evidence.

           8   A.  That's correct.

           9   Q.  Were you an Authorised Firearms Officer in 2011?

          10   A.  I was.

          11   Q.  Were you in company with PC Green when he went and made

          12       this gun safe?

          13   A.  I was indeed.

          14   Q.  Was the purpose of you accompanying him to keep a record

          15       of his actions?

          16   A.  Effectively, I was his scribe, yes.

          17   Q.  Is what he has just told us about what he did accurate

          18       to the best of your recollection?

          19   A.  Yes, it is.

          20   Q.  He was asked, as you just heard, about something in

          21       a statement of yours to the effect that, once he'd

          22       racked the slide back on the gun, having taken the

          23       magazine out, he pulled the trigger and that, in your

          24       statement, you say this caused no effect.  What do you

          25       mean by that?


                                           169
 

 

 


           1   A.  It didn't go "Bang".

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry?

           3   A.  It didn't go off, it didn't go "Bang".

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Oh, it didn't go "Bang", sorry.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Do you remember whether it went "Click"?

           6   A.  Honestly, no I don't remember whether it went "Click" or

           7       not.

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  That's all I ask.

           9                      Questions by MR STRAW

          10   MR STRAW:  The wording you used "this caused no effect" that

          11       would indicate it didn't go "Click", wouldn't it?

          12   A.  I wouldn't -- I would be misleading the court if I said

          13       it went "Click" or it didn't.  I simply don't

          14       remember -- basically, by "no effect" I mean it didn't

          15       go off.

          16   Q.  There's just one point I would like to be absolutely

          17       clear on, it may well be clear already, the gun in the

          18       condition it was found in, so the safety catch is to the

          19       fire or off position, but there's only one bullet in the

          20       magazine and not in the chamber; that wasn't ready to

          21       fire?

          22   A.  In that condition, no, that weapon would not have fired.

          23   MR STRAW:  Thank you very much.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes --

          25   MR STERN:  No, questions.


                                           170
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- Mr Stern?  Mr Butt?  Mr Glasson?

           2           Mr Keith?

           3                      Questions by MR KEITH

           4   MR KEITH:  I think we are all clear that the gun needed to

           5       have the sliding mechanism on the top pulled back and

           6       released to put the round into the chamber and then it

           7       would fire.  You were asked about the pulling of the

           8       trigger --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- by Mr Green once he had removed the round of the

          11       magazine.  In fact in your statement you say:

          12           "At 2319 hours PC Green fired off the action of the

          13       firearm.  This caused no effect."

          14           Does that help you to remember whether or not by "no

          15       effect" you meant nothing happened at all or that no

          16       bullet was ejected?

          17   A.  I couldn't say.  From memory, I know that he's pulled

          18       the trigger and that nothing has happened.  I can't

          19       remember if there was a click, an audible click or not,

          20       that I heard at the time when he pulled the trigger.

          21   MR KEITH:  I have no further questions, thank you.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  I have no questions, thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much then,

          25       Mr Hughes --


                                           171
 

 

 


           1   A.  Sir.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- that completes your evidence.

           3                      (The witness withdrew)

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Inspector Elliot, please.

           5                 INSPECTOR BRIAN ELLIOTT (sworn)

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Please have

           7       a seat.

           8                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Inspector.  Can you give us

          10       your full name please?

          11   A.  I'm Brian Elliott and I'm an Inspector in the

          12       Metropolitan Police, currently attached to CO19

          13       Specialist Firearms Operations.

          14   Q.  I'm asking questions about 4 August 2011.  What was your

          15       duty status that day?

          16   A.  I was on duty as the late turn and overnight Specialist

          17       Firearms Tactical Advisor and duty officer.

          18   Q.  Did you receive a telephone call about the events in

          19       Ferry Lane?

          20   A.  Yes, I did, sir.

          21   Q.  What were you told?

          22   A.  I've initially received a phone call from ZZ17, the DS

          23       from Trident, at some time after 4.00 pm but prior to

          24       6.15.  I am not sure of the exact time.  Initially when

          25       he called me I was engaged on other duties within the


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           1       building.  He wanted the telephone contact number for

           2       V59, the firearms team leader.

           3           I was aware that Operation Dibri was scheduled to

           4       run that day and I was aware of the basic circumstances

           5       of the operation and that V59's firearms team had been

           6       allocated to that operation.

           7           He asked for V59's contact number, I know this

           8       officer, having dealt with him on other operations in

           9       the past.  I asked him why he wanted V59's telephone

          10       number.  He updated me that there had been some

          11       intelligence updates and he wanted the firearms team to

          12       come and meet him earlier than they were scheduled to.

          13       I then gave him V59's phone number and then carried on

          14       doing what I was doing.

          15   Q.  Right.  Did you next hear about Dibri at about 6.15?

          16   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir.

          17   Q.  What were you told then?

          18   A.  V59 telephoned me and explained that there had been

          19       a shooting in Tottenham.

          20   Q.  What did you do?

          21   A.  I basically prepared to leave my office quickly and

          22       attend the scene and assist with the, if you like,

          23       initial management.

          24           I made some phone calls to our reserve room to ensure

          25       that additional support was sent to the location,


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           1       confirmed that London Ambulance Service medical

           2       personnel had been dispatched there and that also our

           3       senior management team and post-incident management

           4       callout process had been initiated.

           5           In addition to that, I quickly spoke to two of my

           6       colleagues who work in our support team to tell them

           7       that there had been a police shooting in the Tottenham

           8       one-way system and could they basically start to put

           9       things in place around the repatriation of the firearms

          10       team back to the building.  So I asked them,

          11       essentially, to get a couple of MPV-type vehicles and

          12       then come up and join me at the scene a short time

          13       thereafter.

          14   Q.  Did you then leave to go to the scene?

          15   A.  Yes, I got my stuff together fairly quickly, left the

          16       building within a few minutes then responded by car to

          17       the scene.

          18   Q.  What time did you get there, can you remember?

          19   A.  I got there at approximately 6.35 pm.

          20   Q.  What faced you when you got there?

          21   A.  There was an outer cordon, there was local police there,

          22       cordon tapes, there were a lot of -- I saw some, if you

          23       like, unmarked police cars that were quite clearly

          24       police cars in the area, some uniformed police.

          25       Externally to the -- you know, through the outer cordon,


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           1       it's a fairly busy part of London, so there was members

           2       of the public gathering, so I made my way -- I took my

           3       vehicle through the sort of extremities of the outer

           4       cordon.  I had my blue lights on so they could see that

           5       I was an emergency services vehicle.  Then I parked my

           6       car in a suitable location, got my stuff together and

           7       then went off to go and see how I could assist.

           8   Q.  Who did you talk to?

           9   A.  When I got there, I went and spoke to V59.

          10   Q.  Did he give you a briefing?

          11   A.  Yes, he did, sir.

          12   Q.  What did he tell you about what had happened?

          13   A.  He basically told me that there had been a police

          14       shooting, V53 had discharged his firearm at a subject,

          15       the male subject was seriously injured and was being

          16       currently attended to by medical personnel and also W42

          17       had received a gunshot injury or gunshot had shot him.

          18   Q.  Sorry, I interrupted you.  Were you told how many rounds

          19       had been fired by V53?

          20   A.  No, I wasn't.

          21   Q.  Were you told who had shot W42?

          22   A.  No, sir.

          23   Q.  What did you do?

          24   A.  Right, first of all, I took -- I had a full update from

          25       V59, I then went immediately over to -- I could see that


                                           175
 

 

 


           1       Mr Duggan was on the footway towards the rear of, if you

           2       like, the convoy of police vehicles, and he was being

           3       tended by medical personnel and some of the members of

           4       the firearms team were also congregated in that area.

           5       I was told that W42 was over towards the front of where

           6       the Alpha car was parked part way up on the footway.

           7       I then went over to speak to him to make sure he was

           8       okay.

           9   Q.  Right.  After you had spoken to him, what did you do?

          10   A.  I spoke to W42, not in any depth because I know the

          11       officer and I could see that he was quite clearly

          12       shocked by what had happened.  I then stepped away from

          13       him, leaving him with some colleagues who were looking

          14       after his welfare needs and then, from memory, I made

          15       some telephone calls to just confirm that the

          16       post-incident management process had been fully

          17       initiated.

          18   Q.  Right.  Did you go to V53 at any stage?

          19   A.  Yes, I did, sir.

          20   Q.  What did you do with him?

          21   A.  Subsequently, after a few minutes, I obviously spoke to

          22       V59 again, made a few phone calls, I think I may well

          23       have received a few phone calls as well, at the same

          24       time.  I then became aware that V53 was sat in the rear

          25       of the control vehicle which was parked towards the rear


                                           176
 

 

 


           1       of the vehicle stop and I then went to speak to him in

           2       the vehicle.

           3   Q.  Had you ever had to attend a scene where firearms had

           4       been discharged and somebody seriously injured before

           5       that?

           6   A.  No, sir.

           7   Q.  What were you trained to do in relation to dealing with

           8       the officer who was thought to have fired shots?

           9   A.  Right.  It's not normal that you would take an initial

          10       factual account from the principal officer, the person

          11       that has fired the shots.  That is not normal practice.

          12       Generally, it's accepted that you may well take it from

          13       someone else who was with the principal officer and who

          14       could give an initial brief account as to what would

          15       happen.  But that is not, as I would say, you know,

          16       a general instruction.  That is guidelines.

          17   Q.  Can I just stop you there.  So if, for example, let's

          18       say you got the principal officer who's the person who

          19       fired the shots and let's say he was in shock,

          20       traumatised, but there would be an officer standing next

          21       to him when the shots were fired, would it have been

          22       acceptable for you to ask the officer who stood next to

          23       him what had happened?

          24   A.  Yes, very much so, sir, and that would normally be the

          25       case.  One of the reasons, sir, why I didn't do that is


                                           177
 

 

 


           1       I knew V53, I used to manage and had line management

           2       responsibility for the Tactical Support Teams for two

           3       years and had only recently given up that position upon

           4       changing roles slightly, to become a Specialist Firearms

           5       Inspector.  So I knew both of these officers and V59,

           6       I knew them quite well.

           7           I decided as -- I was made aware that V53 was in the

           8       rear of the vehicle and was happy to speak to me and

           9       tell me what happened.  I was aware at the time that

          10       that would be, shall we say unconventional, but as

          11       I knew the individuals concerned, I thought I would

          12       speak to him, explain the process that was now going to

          13       take place over the next few hours and then assess, if

          14       I was comfortable, that that officer was in the right

          15       place of mind, to give me a brief initial factual

          16       account to assist with this investigation.

          17   Q.  We've heard almost endless accounts of the concept by

          18       which people are given 48 hours or so before they are

          19       expected to give detailed accounts.  You know about that

          20       principle, I take it?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  Were you at all concerned that, in taking an account

          23       from the person who had fired the shots, that you would

          24       get a warped version of events?

          25   A.  It was something I thought of, and that's why I didn't


                                           178
 

 

 


           1       just go straight up to V53 with my pen poised to write

           2       down the first thing that he said.  I spoke to him,

           3       I explained -- first of all, I asked him was he okay,

           4       and I then explained the details of the process, you

           5       know, the post-incident management process, that would

           6       then roll out over the next few hours.

           7           I asked -- I explained to him that I was considering

           8       taking a brief initial factual account from him, and he

           9       said he was happy to provide that.

          10   Q.  Did you then do that?

          11   A.  Yes, I did, sir.

          12   Q.  Did you write it down?

          13   A.  I did, sir.

          14   Q.  Did he sign it?

          15   A.  Yes, he did.

          16   Q.  Can we have a look at that, please.  The page number has

          17       been cut off in my version, but it's up on the screen.

          18   A.  Yes, that's it.

          19   Q.  Is this the document?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Can you read it for us please?

          22   A.  Right, IFA's initial factual account, V53 is who I am

          23       speaking to, and I've timed and dated it 1850 hours on

          24       4/8/11:

          25           "I got out of Charlie car.  Subject got out of rear


                                           179
 

 

 


           1       nearside of taxi holding gun shaped item in sock in his

           2       hand.  Began to raise it up in my direction.  I fired

           3       several shots."

           4           I then offered it to him to sign, which he did so,

           5       and I have signed underneath myself.

           6   Q.  Is that everything that he said or did you have a more

           7       general conversation about the events?

           8   A.  No, we didn't have a more general conversation about the

           9       events.  I spoke to him before about the process that

          10       would take place.  Part of me doing that was to sort of

          11       put his mind at rest because obviously he's undergone

          12       a traumatic incident and is still in the middle of it,

          13       but by doing -- by me speaking to him, I could assess

          14       was I happy to take that brief factual account from him

          15       or should I decide not to take it from him and take it

          16       from someone else.

          17   Q.  What did you do next?

          18   A.  Once I had recorded that, I gave instructions that, as

          19       per standard operating procedures, that he should be

          20       removed from the location and returned to Leman Street,

          21       which was going to be the post-incident location for the

          22       event -- for the incident.

          23   Q.  Then did you have to do more work towards the

          24       post-incident processes yourself?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                           180
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Briefly, can you describe what you had to do before you

           2       left the scene?

           3   A.  I was there -- I didn't leave the scene until

           4       approximately 9.15 pm.  Shortly thereafter,

           5       Dr Glazebrook, who was the air ambulance doctor, wanted

           6       to speak to me.  I was made aware by V59 that life was

           7       pronounced extinct at, I think, 1841 hours.

           8       Dr Glazebrook wanted to speak to me personally to tell

           9       me that.

          10           I then took some details of the ambulance service

          11       personnel and ensured that W42 had been -- was taken to

          12       hospital for a precautionary check, just in case he had

          13       suffered any internal injuries that weren't obvious at

          14       the scene.

          15           Once that was all done, the firearms team or the

          16       remainder of the firearms team that was still at the

          17       scene of the incident were sat in a waiting police

          18       minibus and I phoned DI Suggett from the Directorate of

          19       Professional Standards, who's the on-call investigating

          20       officer for incidents of this nature.  I had

          21       a discussion with him about allowing the officers to

          22       retrieve weapons that they had stored in the vehicles,

          23       because they have a personal responsibility for them,

          24       before then they could be extracted from the scene and

          25       returned to the post-incident location.


                                           181
 

 

 


           1           That was all documented in my day book and took some

           2       time.

           3   Q.  Thank you.  Of course, looking at it in hindsight we

           4       know a man died, a police officer was shot.  We know all

           5       the processes that were put in place.  Would all of

           6       these processes have been put in place if a firearms

           7       officer had just discharged a weapon in the street

           8       without hitting anyone?

           9   A.  Some of them would be, sir, yes.  It would be dealt with

          10       as a forensic scene issue.  If it was, if you like,

          11       a negligent or accidental discharge, we would still, in

          12       effect, freeze the scene, we would phone someone like DI

          13       Suggett from the on-call investigations team and inform

          14       them about what happened.

          15           It may well still be that the criteria for the

          16       initiation of a post-incident process would be met

          17       because we could say that, by accidentally firing a gun

          18       in the street, there had been a danger to the public

          19       caused and that would be one of the criteria for that

          20       process being started.  So essentially we would still

          21       want to secure that scene, cordon it off, freeze

          22       everything there and then seek further advice.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's very kind, Inspector.  Thank

          24       you very much.  If you would wait there, please.

          25           Yes, Mr Mansfield?


                                           182
 

 

 


           1                    Questions by MR MANSFIELD

           2   MR MANSFIELD:  Good afternoon, Inspector, I represent the

           3       family of Mark Duggan.

           4   A.  Good afternoon, sir.

           5   Q.  I think you have notes, and they are available if you

           6       need to refer to them, but I just want to go through the

           7       responsibilities and role that you played that afternoon

           8       or that evening.

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Essentially, for a couple of hours, you're in charge of

          11       the scene, are you not, awaiting what is called

          12       post-incident management to arrive?

          13   A.  No, sir, I'm not in charge of the scene because I hadn't

          14       relieved the Tactical Firearms Commander.

          15   Q.  Who is in charge?

          16   A.  The Tactical Firearms Commander is in charge of the

          17       scene until he is operationally stood down and I didn't

          18       take over from him.  I met him at the scene, we had

          19       a discussion, I was satisfied, you know, he was carrying

          20       on with his command of that operation.

          21           My role was -- you know, attending the scene is the

          22       firearms unit duty officer, in effect, was to assist

          23       where necessary, so to assist the TFC, assist the

          24       Operational Firearms Commander and, you know, do some of

          25       the initial post-incident management issues prior to the


                                           183
 

 

 


           1       arrival of the CO19 post-incident management.

           2   Q.  I'm looking at your statement where you put it in this

           3       way:

           4           "Part of my role as the SFO duty officer is to

           5       attend the scene of any police shooting and manage the

           6       scene initially providing support to both tactical and

           7       Operational Firearms Commanders until such time as

           8       relieved by the post-incident manager."

           9           Is that a correct description?

          10   A.  Yes, sir.  But I would -- I say "manage the scene"

          11       in as much as I'm a manager and I will assist both of

          12       those officers.  But whilst this operation is still

          13       active, the Tactical -- and it's an armed operation --

          14       the Tactical Firearms Commander is in charge of that

          15       scene and that operation.  I didn't relieve him at the

          16       scene.

          17   Q.  Right.  So that's Z51?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  First of all, you noticed, obviously, early on, that

          20       there's the minicab that's been talked about?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   Q.  Did you go to the minicab?

          23   A.  I may well have stood near to it but I didn't --

          24   Q.  Did you look in it?

          25   A.  From recollection, no, I wouldn't -- why would I --


                                           184
 

 

 


           1       I would have no reason to look in it, sir, no.

           2   Q.  No?  I'm going to come to some of the reasons as you

           3       were there to assist with the management of the scene.

           4           Was the minicab sealed off in any way?

           5   A.  The scene was sealed off.  The minicab was, if you like,

           6       surrounded by the covert armed response vehicles that

           7       had intercepted it but there was not, in effect -- if

           8       you are trying to ask was there some sort of inner

           9       cordon around the minicab or a tape around it or

          10       anything, no, there wasn't, sir.

          11   Q.  Was the door open?

          12   A.  I can't recall, sir.

          13   Q.  Did you, as assisting with the management of the scene,

          14       ask whether anyone had actually photographed the minicab

          15       or the contents of the minicab?

          16   A.  No, sir, that wouldn't be part of my responsibility.

          17   Q.  Whose responsibility would it be?

          18   A.  If you're looking at the ongoing investigation, that

          19       would be whoever becomes the scene manager.

          20   Q.  The scene manager has to get there, hasn't he?

          21   A.  The forensic scene manager.

          22   Q.  Yes but they have to get there, haven't they --

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  -- whoever they are.  So before they get there, if the

          25       CO19 officers have either a movie camera or a still


                                           185
 

 

 


           1       camera, it wouldn't be beyond the remit of those

           2       officers to take photographs of the scene as it was at

           3       the time of the shooting, would it?

           4   A.  That's not their role, sir.  Their role is not to gather

           5       video evidence of the scene.  Part of our standard

           6       operating procedures are that we will take some still

           7       photography and a video of a scene where a party has

           8       been injured and essentially that is to evidence the

           9       fact that appropriate measures have -- taken place in

          10       respect of first aid, not around recording the position

          11       of the vehicles or whether any particular evidence,

          12       whether it be gun or anything else like that, is in any

          13       particular position, whether that's in a parked vehicle,

          14       on a grassy verge, on a pavement or whatever, sir.

          15   Q.  You know, of course, that these CO19 officers did have

          16       a movie camera and had a still camera there?

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  I want to move from the minicab to, obviously, you

          19       finding out as much as you could about what had

          20       happened.  Now again, was that your role, to find out

          21       what had happened or not?

          22   A.  Well, I'm the duty officer of the firearms unit, it's

          23       a firearms team that's involved in this operation.

          24       Although I'm not in the command chain of this operation,

          25       I still have, in effect, if you like, line management


                                           186
 

 

 


           1       responsibility for those officers.  So welfare is

           2       obviously one of the primary considerations of the

           3       post-incident management process, obviously in addition

           4       to it assisting the ongoing investigation.  So I will

           5       need to ascertain a brief update on what has actually

           6       happened.

           7   Q.  Putting it shortly, yes, you do have a role in finding

           8       out what has happened; is that fair?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Right.  You spoke to at least two officers, beside V59,

          11       who briefed you.  You spoke to W42 -- I'm doing it in

          12       the order in which you appear to have spoken to people.

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  He was in shock and obviously he might not have been in

          15       a position to deal with many of your questions or at

          16       least add much detail, so you would not want to ask him

          17       very much.

          18   A.  No, I didn't, sir, no.

          19   Q.  There's only one question.  I take it therefore you

          20       didn't ask him how he came to be shot --

          21   A.  No, sir.

          22   Q.  -- shot at?

          23   A.  No, sir.  I had been made aware that he had been hit by

          24       a bullet, it had struck his police issue radio, he had

          25       obviously been stripped off partially to -- as part of


                                           187
 

 

 


           1       the first aid process, to obviously evaluate were there

           2       any wounds, et cetera, and he looked to me quite

           3       shocked.  From the outset, I thought to myself I'm not

           4       going to ask him in any detail what has happened here,

           5       I'm just going to make sure he knows that I'm concerned

           6       about his welfare and putting appropriate measures in

           7       place.

           8   Q.  At this point, when you speak to W42, all you know is

           9       that a man is lying seriously injured on the pavement --

          10   A.  Yes, sir.

          11   Q.  -- a gun has been discharged --

          12   A.  Yes, sir.

          13   Q.  -- and you don't know more at that point; is that fair?

          14   A.  Yes, sir.

          15   Q.  Then you speak to the officer whose note you have there.

          16       Can we just have that back up on screen, please, 7647?

          17           Now, you didn't read the time out, I'm not being

          18       critical, but the time, the jury will see, is at the top

          19       there, 18.50.  You read it out, I am not going to read

          20       it out again, about him -- that is the person, Duggan --

          21       holding the gun as -- a gun-shaped item in a sock.

          22           Now, I just want to concentrate on that for

          23       a moment.  Was that the first time you had heard about

          24       such an item?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                           188
 

 

 


           1   Q.  One of the prime objects of CO19, one of them, is the

           2       recovery of weapons, isn't it, illegal weapons?

           3   A.  In what respect, sir?  You mean one of the primary

           4       functions?

           5   Q.  One of the primary objectives of CO19 and operations

           6       like this is the recovery of firearms from the streets

           7       of London, isn't it?

           8   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  Yes.  Is there a problem about this question?

          10   A.  No, the primary objective of having a firearms unit

          11       is -- in the way that Britain is policed, which is

          12       essentially an unarmed police service with armed

          13       support, is to provide specialist armed support to the

          14       rest of the police service.  The functions of CO19 in

          15       London are to provide that armed capability for the rest

          16       of London's police and to provide, from the armed

          17       response vehicle side of the fence -- to provide a, if

          18       you like, a uniformed armed reassurance presence for the

          19       public on the streets of London and also, as

          20       a deterrence factor, to disrupt certain elements of

          21       armed criminality, because they know that there are some

          22       police officers who patrol 24/7 in uniform with firearms

          23       and we'll respond to any incidents.

          24           The reason why I'm looking at you so quizzically,

          25       sir, is I would be reluctant to describe the primary aim


                                           189
 

 

 


           1       of CO19 as to recover firearms.

           2   Q.  One of them.

           3   A.  One of the aims of the unit is to recover firearms but

           4       that's in partnership with the other agencies we work

           5       for, for example Trident.

           6   Q.  When you discovered for the first time, on this day --

           7       perhaps I had better step back a bit.  Did you know

           8       about the intelligence relating to this case?

           9   A.  When, sir, prior to the day?

          10   Q.  Yes.

          11   A.  No, sir.

          12   Q.  On the day?

          13   A.  On the day, I had a brief overview of the operation when

          14       I came on duty and took over from the previous Tactical

          15       Advisor, who I believe was Inspector Bennett, who was

          16       the Tactical Advisor for this operation.  When I came on

          17       duty and take over from him there is, in effect,

          18       a handover of the current operations for that day.

          19       I will have been made aware that Operation Dibri, which

          20       was a Trident based operation looking to disrupt the

          21       activities of the Tottenham Man Dem crew, was taking

          22       place.

          23   Q.  The question was about the intelligence; did you know

          24       about the intelligence behind this operation?

          25   A.  Not in any depth, sir, not apart from the fact that this


                                           190
 

 

 


           1       operation was running and it was looking to disrupt gun

           2       crime in this way.

           3   Q.  You discover from this officer, V53, that there's a gun

           4       shaped item and a sock.

           5           I want to follow this through.  Shortly after

           6       speaking to V53, you spoke to the person who you say is

           7       in overall charge of the scene and you're assisting,

           8       that's the Tactical Firearms Commander --

           9   A.  Yes, that's correct.

          10   Q.  -- V51?

          11   A.  Z51.

          12   Q.  Z51, I'm sorry.

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  You spoke to him?

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  What did he tell you?

          17   A.  He gave me a brief overview of the situation, briefly

          18       that the intelligence had came in quicker and that they

          19       had had to deploy onto the operation with the

          20       surveillance capability being serviced by his Trident

          21       officers because they didn't have time to wait for the

          22       SCO11 armed surveillance team, that they had then

          23       followed the vehicle, they had intelligence that the

          24       male in the vehicle was in possession of a firearm and

          25       that he had decided to intercept the vehicle.


                                           191
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Did he tell you that he had found the gun?

           2   A.  I've got in recollection of discussing whether the

           3       firearm was found with Z51, sir, no.

           4   Q.  That's the reason I put the earlier questions.  So you

           5       have no recollection -- and I'm looking at a statement

           6       and obviously your notes -- there's no suggestion in

           7       your statement, nor in your notes made nearer the time,

           8       that this officer, who has claimed he found the gun, not

           9       long before 6.50, at about 6.20, he doesn't tell you

          10       "Look, I found the gun and I can tell you where it is",

          11       nothing like that?

          12   A.  No, he didn't, sir.  But I had to wait some time to

          13       speak to Z51 because he was constantly on the phone.

          14       I spoke to some other people.  He was clearly busy and

          15       in command of the operation.

          16           My role at the scene -- you know, I'm not

          17       particularly interested, sir, in ascertaining if the

          18       firearm -- exactly where the firearm is, was it

          19       recovered, et cetera, because that isn't --

          20   Q.  I am going to ask you a little more carefully.  You are

          21       assisting in scene management, one of the objectives is

          22       recovery of weapons.  Why did you not ask him, as the

          23       officer in charge of the scene and you are assisting

          24       him, that "V53 has told me, I have this account right in

          25       front of me, that there's a gun-shaped item somewhere,


                                           192
 

 

 


           1       so where is it?"  That's a perfectly reasonable request,

           2       isn't it?

           3   A.  At the time, sir, I was more concerned with the other

           4       issues that faced me, and that was around the

           5       repatriation of the firearms team from the venue to the

           6       post-incident location.

           7   Q.  Did you see the gun at all, the gun-shaped item?

           8   A.  Later on, I went to the various, if you like, mini

           9       scenes, to record details for my log of who the scene

          10       officers were at the location.  I went round there and

          11       I took the details of the officer that was standing

          12       guard in that area, but I have no recollection of

          13       looking any further towards the gun.

          14   Q.  Was it secure at that point when you went over to where

          15       the officer was; how was it protected?

          16   A.  The area was cordoned off, there was a wide cordoned-off

          17       area by that time.

          18   Q.  You had no difficulty in seeing the gun-shaped item?

          19   A.  I don't recall seeing the gun, sir.  I went round to

          20       where the officer was standing to take his details.

          21       I was aware that it was the other side of the brick wall

          22       and there were some bushes or something like that.

          23       I don't remember looking and actually seeing a gun

          24       there, sir, because I wasn't --

          25   Q.  Or something covering it, like a box or a plant or


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           1       something?

           2   A.  There may well have been a box or whatever covering it,

           3       but I have no recollection of that, sir.

           4   Q.  I am not going to pin you to an exact time as to when

           5       you did that, but when you ascertained that it was the

           6       other side of a wall, it must have struck you, or this

           7       question must have arisen in your mind, as to how it got

           8       there.

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Yes.  Of course, I want to ask you whether, at the

          11       scene -- that was one of the concerns of those at the

          12       scene, as to how this gun got on the other side of the

          13       wall?  Now, people were talking about that, weren't

          14       they?

          15   A.  What people, sir?

          16   Q.  Well, police officers who were there.

          17   A.  Not in front of me, they weren't.

          18   Q.  No?

          19   A.  No, sir.

          20   Q.  I want to ask you about an entry in your notebook in

          21       relation to this.  Would you just look at a particular

          22       page.  I want to see if it's your writing on the page.

          23       It's 7649 --

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you have a copy there?

          25   A.  Yes, sir.


                                           194
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Please have a look at that.  If you

           2       have it in the original form you can look at that too.

           3   MR MANSFIELD:  We see at --

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you just identify: that's your

           5       note, is it?

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   MR MANSFIELD:  We see the words "Situation review", half-way

           8       down that page?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  Is the writing on the rest of the page yours?

          11   A.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  Right.  I would like you just to look at the "Situation

          13       review" paragraph, first one:

          14           "Male subject ... shot.  Forensic scene being

          15       preserved.  Evidential tent now in place over deceased

          16       male on footway.  Firearm discarded by subject has been

          17       recovered over a wall on grass and is covered with

          18       tent."

          19   A.  "... is covered with tent".

          20   Q.  Yes.  So this is 8 o'clock or some time after that, that

          21       you write this up; is that right?

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  How did you manage to write in "Firearm discarded by

          24       subject"?

          25   A.  Well, sir, that would be an assumption by me because of


                                           195
 

 

 


           1       its close proximity to where the initial event took

           2       place.

           3   Q.  An assumption?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  You see, the reason I'm asking these questions rather

           6       carefully is: were you aware there was, that evening,

           7       a suggestion that a police officer might have thrown it

           8       over the wall; were you aware of that?

           9   A.  No, I wasn't, sir.

          10   Q.  No.  Have you ever been aware of that suggestion?

          11   A.  No, I haven't, sir.

          12   Q.  You haven't.  I want to move from the question of how

          13       the gun gets over the wall.  So you say that was

          14       an assumption that it was discarded by him, but you

          15       never bothered to ask anyone before you wrote that

          16       assumption as to whether anybody had seen a gun being

          17       discarded by Mr Duggan; is that right?

          18   A.  That's correct, sir, because that was a brief overview

          19       of the situation that -- as I saw it at that time.

          20       I didn't see the gun get from whatever position it was

          21       in prior to it landing there.  I didn't question Z51 in

          22       any depth about it because he was clearly very busy

          23       dealing with the general scene management and other

          24       issues, and I had my own role to play at the scene and

          25       I was more focused on that.  So that was just me


                                           196
 

 

 


           1       painting, if you like, a picture.  But, yes, I can prove

           2       that that was a gun that is attributable to Mr Duggan.

           3   Q.  I want to ask you about another aspect of this.  Were

           4       you aware at the time on the evening that there was

           5       a suggestion that Mark Duggan left the minicab, not only

           6       holding a gun, but firing at police; were you aware of

           7       that suggestion?

           8   A.  No.

           9   Q.  No?

          10   A.  No, sir.

          11   Q.  Or the possibility that he might have fired the shot

          12       that injured one of the police officers?

          13   A.  On that evening, sir, there were two clear distinct

          14       possibilities because you have two people that were

          15       injured, Mr Duggan and W42.

          16           One possibility is that the only rounds that were

          17       ever fired were fired from V53 and the trajectory of one

          18       of those rounds ended up connecting with W42.

          19           It would be another possibility that someone else,

          20       Mr Duggan or someone else, had fired a shot and it had

          21       hit W42.

          22   Q.  Right, where did you get that second scenario from?

          23   A.  Where did I get the second scenario from?

          24   Q.  You have just indicated there are two possibilities: one

          25       is that the shots that were fired were only by police


                                           197
 

 

 


           1       and one of them accidentally hit W42; the other one is

           2       someone else fired a shot, possibly Mr Duggan.

           3   A.  Well, it's a logical -- there are two -- I mean, at no

           4       stage did I think that anyone else had fired shots but

           5       thinking about it in my mind, if you had two people

           6       injured, is it one firer or is it two?  From the outset,

           7       in my opinion, it was obvious that, because of the

           8       position of the officers, that the V53 shots, one of

           9       them, had gone through Mr Duggan and continued and then

          10       struck W42, because they would be many coming from

          11       opposing angles, sort of.

          12   Q.  So Mr Duggan doesn't come into it, does he?

          13   A.  No, sir.

          14   Q.  No.  So why did you put him in a moment ago?

          15   A.  Because it was a possibility -- thinking out loud about

          16       what could have happened here because I didn't question

          17       anyone in any depth, that's not my role to do that at

          18       the time.

          19   Q.  The version that you had from V53 didn't indicate that

          20       he was fired at, did it?

          21   A.  No, it didn't, sir, no.

          22   Q.  I want to ask you carefully about the conversation going

          23       back to the tactical firearms officer, Z51.  Can we have

          24       CD669.  These are the notes that were taken by Mr Cundy,

          25       who we will hear from later.  669, please, they are not


                                           198
 

 

 


           1       your notes.  You will see in the left-hand column that,

           2       at about the time that you're interviewing V53, that's

           3       at 6.50 -- do you see the time?

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  Your name is actually there, certainly on the unredacted

           6       copy --

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   Q.  -- do you see that?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   Q.  Then you see the Tactical Firearms Officer is inserted

          11       there as having a conversation with Mr Cundy; do you see

          12       that?

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  Now, the Tactical Firearms Commander is in charge, as

          15       you have said, of the scene.  He's been there since the

          16       beginning and I just want you to run your eye down what

          17       he's written on this page because right at the bottom,

          18       you'll see what it says.  Can you read it or shall I?

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you read it for us?

          20   MR MANSFIELD:  Yes.  It's:

          21           "CO19 officer shot ..."

          22           It's difficult to discern the next bit:

          23           "... accidentally by CO19/[Mark Duggan]MD."

          24   A.  I can see what it says, sir.  The bit I'm having

          25       difficulty with is the word between "shot" and "by".  It


                                           199
 

 

 


           1       looks something "if" or -- it's obviously abbreviated in

           2       some way.

           3   MR MANSFIELD:  "... unknown if by" CO19 or Mark Duggan.

           4   A.  Okay, sir.

           5   Q.  We have a statement from him and I can read the

           6       statement where he explains that in words of one

           7       syllable.

           8           You spoke to the tactical firearms officer, as you

           9       have indicated.  When you spoke to him, did he say to

          10       you anything about the possibility that the CO19

          11       officer, that's W42, who had been injured, might have

          12       been injured by Mark Duggan; did he say that?

          13   A.  No, sir.

          14   Q.  Just following through: you are at the scene, you don't

          15       make enquiries about the gun or the shooting of the

          16       officer.  Do you make, in fact, any enquiries at all

          17       before you leave, any more enquiries, about what has

          18       actually happened at the scene?

          19   A.  No, sir, because that's not my role.

          20   Q.  I appreciate you're assisting in the management of the

          21       scene.

          22   A.  Yes, sir, from the perspective of CO19, which -- you

          23       know, the primary concerns for me are assisting in the

          24       post-incident process and the extraction of the firearms

          25       team from the venue, so that this process can then be


                                           200
 

 

 


           1       initiated back at the post-incident location.  I am

           2       mindful of the fact that this is an incident that's

           3       taken place in a public place and there may well be

           4       community tensions.  There may well be people coming out

           5       that choose to video/photograph events, et cetera.

           6           These are officers that are employed on covert

           7       operations and, wherever possible, we should try and --

           8       when an incident happens like that and lots of public

           9       will come out and video and record things, that they

          10       will then be removed from there to assist in the

          11       protection of their identity for their forthcoming

          12       deployment on covert operations.

          13   Q.  Mr Cundy actually does arrive at the scene, doesn't

          14       he --

          15   A.  Yes, he does.

          16   Q.  -- about 7.30?

          17   A.  (Pause)

          18           I'm not sure.  I do speak to him, sir, I am not sure

          19       if I've timed it.

          20   Q.  Leave aside the time.  You did speak to him.  When he

          21       arrived, did he say to you directly anything about the

          22       possibility that Mr Duggan had fired a shot?

          23   A.  I don't recall in any detail what Mr Cundy said.

          24   MR MANSFIELD:  Thank you.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.  Mr Glasson?  Mr Butt?


                                           201
 

 

 


           1   MR BUTT:  No, thank you.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

           3                      Questions by MR KEITH

           4   MR KEITH:  You've been asked a number of questions about

           5       your role.

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  You were the on-call duty officer from CO19?

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  Were you a member of the Directorate of Professional

          10       Standards?

          11   A.  No, sir.

          12   Q.  Were you a member of the local borough?

          13   A.  No, sir.

          14   Q.  Were you a member of the IPCC --

          15   A.  No, sir.

          16   Q.  -- or of Trident?

          17   A.  No, sir.

          18   Q.  When you arrived at the scene, how many of the officers

          19       who were already there did you speak to?

          20   A.  I spoke to a small number, probably five or six.  So

          21       I spoke to W42; V53; I spoke to the firearms team

          22       leader, V59; I subsequently spoke to ZZ17, who was the

          23       investigating officer from Trident; I also spoke to the

          24       Trident post-incident liaison officer, ZZ46, I believe;

          25       and also the TFC, Z51.


                                           202
 

 

 


           1   Q.  So W42, firearms officer; V59, firearms officer; V53,

           2       firearms officer?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  You spoke to the TFC to whom you were lending your

           5       support --

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  -- Z51, and you patrolled around the area.

           8   A.  Yes, sir.

           9   Q.  Did you speak to other officers, either of your level of

          10       seniority or more senior, in relation to the

          11       preservation or investigation of the scene?

          12   A.  I spoke to the local borough duty officer, Inspector

          13       Saunders.

          14   Q.  That's the lady you spoke to at 7.18?

          15   A.  Yes, sir.

          16   Q.  Why did you speak to her?

          17   A.  I spoke to her because she was, if you like, the local

          18       representative of the local borough policing operation,

          19       so I was conscious of the fact that she may not have had

          20       any brief update as to what actually took place.  So

          21       I gave her a quick update on the situation and made sure

          22       that she was comfortable with her, you know -- the

          23       management of the local uniformed policing operation

          24       around this, because this essentially was a critical

          25       incident.


                                           203
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You were told at 18.41 that life had been pronounced

           2       extinct?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  Did you appreciate that there would be a wide range of

           5       other officers and bodies involved with this whole

           6       incident?

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   Q.  You spoke to Inspector Saunders.  Did you speak to

           9       Detective Inspector Suggett at the Directorate of

          10       Professional Standards?

          11   A.  Only on the telephone, sir.  He -- by the time I think

          12       he got there I'd left.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What time did you leave?

          14   A.  I left at approximately 9.15, sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  9.15.  By that time, were you quite

          16       satisfied that you had complied with all your duties.

          17   A.  Yes, sir, I had handed over to Chief Inspector Dowe, who

          18       was the scene post-incident manager from CO19, and he

          19       arrived a short time before then.  We had a discussion,

          20       I briefed him on what had happened and I then left the

          21       scene to return to the post-incident location.

          22   MR KEITH:  Did you understand that one of your duties was to

          23       investigate what had happened or were you concerned with

          24       your own -- because they're firearms officers --

          25       officers?


                                           204
 

 

 


           1   A.  I'm concerned with my team that are there deployed on

           2       that operation.  I am not part of the investigative

           3       function of this operation.

           4   Q.  Would you have wished to start investigating the scene

           5       in order to determine what had happened?

           6   A.  No.  It would be wholly inappropriate for me to do that,

           7       sir.

           8   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.  I have no further

           9       questions.

          10               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  One thing which people aren't

          12       talking about, part of your job is to provide armed

          13       support for the unarmed police and so that's why CO19

          14       were involved in the first place and, as we know, CO19

          15       isn't involved in arresting people or investigating

          16       scenes.  At the same time, I assume that you wouldn't

          17       all go back to Leman Street if there was any question of

          18       there being unaccounted for firearms, for example, in

          19       the area?

          20   A.  That's right, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's why we have Mr Green coming

          22       along and getting the firearm.  That's not your job,

          23       it's the other part of the police that look after the

          24       exhibits.  What about the position of the taxi?  Was

          25       there any discussion about whether there might be


                                           205
 

 

 


           1       another firearm in the taxi?

           2   A.  Not that I'm aware of, sir, no.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, talk about that at all?

           4   A.  Not that I'm aware of.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No one interested; were you

           6       interested about whether there might be?

           7   A.  No, because the taxi is part of the forensic scene of

           8       that incident.  That scene will belong to the, if you

           9       like, Crime Scene Manager, that's their responsibility.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not your responsibility?

          11   A.  No, sir.  I'm aware that some of our officers have seen

          12       a firearm and it then can instantly be accounted for.

          13       A firearm is found in close proximity to where Mr Duggan

          14       was.  But essentially that's someone else's concern,

          15       that's the investigator's, it is their job to try and

          16       marry that up.  It's not mine.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not your job.  One final little

          18       thing, can we have the note you took with V53 up on the

          19       screen?  There we are.  That gets a time frank on it

          20       too, doesn't it, like your notes do?

          21   A.  Yes, sir.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you read it for us?

          23   A.  That was time franked at CO19, so Leman Street, on the

          24       7th at 18.53.  Now, there is a delay in that --

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  7 August?


                                           206
 

 

 


           1   A.  Sunday, 7 August at 18.04.  Now, at the end of my day

           2       book entry, I've made an entry to explain why that was

           3       the case.  Basically, that was an oversight on the night

           4       because I had lots of other things going on.  I simply

           5       forgot to take my day book and go to the ATR, the

           6       automatic time recording machine, to actually date stamp

           7       it.

           8           When I date stamped, it was on the 7th and that was

           9       when I had completed my statement alone and I am not

          10       sure whether I ATR'd the original statement, because

          11       this is only a copy I have here, but that's when

          12       I realised the oversight in relation to the day book and

          13       made a one-line entry in relation to that and then ATR'd

          14       it then, sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Back on it again,

          16       please.  You have written down that V53 said:

          17           "I fired several shots."

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  Were those his words?

          20   A.  Yes, sir.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you enquire anymore of him as to

          22       how many?

          23   A.  No.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not interested or --

          25   A.  Sir, it's his account, it's not a question and answer


                                           207
 

 

 


           1       session, so I would just record a brief verbal account

           2       that he said.  I wasn't going to question him because

           3       that then could be perceived to be some sort of

           4       interview.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You talk about getting your pen and

           6       paper out, and such like, to write this down.  Would it

           7       not have been much easier just to record it on

           8       a Dictaphone or something like that, or at least some

           9       other form of record?

          10   A.  That's not the normal practice, sir.  We are not

          11       equipped with Dictaphones.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

          13   MR KEITH:  If it assists, may I just ask one or two

          14       questions arising out of that?

          15                 Further questions from MR KEITH

          16   MR KEITH:  We have copies, of course, of your book.  If we

          17       look at CD7651, and if we just zoom back out, do we see

          18       there the entry to which you have just referred --

          19   A.  Yes, sir.

          20   Q.  -- which is that, having filled in your book,

          21       contemporaneously as things went on --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- you got to 7 August --

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  -- realised you hadn't stamped the book --


                                           208
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  -- so you have written "7 August 1805, notes ATR'd now

           3       due to oversight", that is when you got to the end of

           4       your book and all the notes had finished, you had it

           5       stamped.

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  Then you made a note in your book that that is what you

           8       did?

           9   A.  Yes, sir.

          10   MR KEITH:  Thank you very much.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  No more questions from me, thank you.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much then,

          13       Inspector Elliott, that concludes your evidence.  Thank

          14       you very much for assisting the jury.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  We have one more witness, PC Hartshorn, who

          16       I think will be quite short.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, no, please.

          18                  PC STEVE HARTSHORN (affirmed)

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Have a seat, please, if you wish to.

          20           Yes, Mr Underwood?

          21                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          22   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good afternoon, Officer.  Can you give us

          23       your name and rank please?

          24   A.  PC Steve Hartshorn, currently attached to CO19.

          25   Q.  I think you were a Police Federation representative in


                                           209
 

 

 


           1       August 2011, were you?

           2   A.  That's correct, sir.

           3   Q.  Were you called to the scene of the shooting in Ferry

           4       Lane in that capacity?

           5   A.  Initially, sir, I was called as an armed response

           6       vehicle officer.  My Federation role is purely voluntary

           7       within the department.  I just happened to be on duty at

           8       that particular time.

           9   Q.  Did you, if this is the right word, tend to any officers

          10       there in your capacity as the Federation rep?

          11   A.  Yes, sir, I did.  Once I got there, I met up with the

          12       rest of the RV officers who were there before me and

          13       then I've gone and sorted out the injured officer, W42,

          14       and then sorted out the firer, V53.

          15   Q.  Can you give us a time on when you saw V53?

          16   A.  From my note, sir, I have not got an exact time when

          17       I first saw him, I've only got a time from when

          18       I physically took him and removed him from the scene to

          19       return him back to Leman Street.

          20   Q.  Let me help, do you know what time you arrived?

          21   A.  I don't have a note of that, sir.  It may well be on the

          22       CAD system but I haven't physically got that time.

          23   Q.  Do you know whether Inspector Elliott was already there?

          24   A.  I don't recall him being there when I got there, however

          25       he could have been at a different part of the initial


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           1       scene.

           2   Q.  Did there come a point when you asked for permission to

           3       remove V53 from the scene?

           4   A.  I did, sir.  Once I realised that W55 was there, as

           5       a courtesy then --

           6   Q.  Sorry, W55 is what we used to call Inspector Elliott?

           7   A.  Inspector Elliott.  I sought permission to remove him

           8       from the scene for the reasons that Inspector Elliott

           9       has already given.

          10   Q.  So by that stage then, Inspector Elliott was there?

          11   A.  Correct, sir.

          12   Q.  Do you know that Inspector Elliott had taken an initial

          13       factual account from V53?

          14   A.  I did, sir.

          15   Q.  Did you know what was in that account?

          16   A.  I didn't sir, at the time, no.

          17   Q.  Did you discuss the incident at all with V53?

          18   A.  No, sir.

          19   Q.  Did you see W42?

          20   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  Did you have any discussion with him at all?

          22   A.  Just to establish how he was, welfare, see if he needed

          23       any further London Ambulance Service assistance and then

          24       went over to V53.

          25   Q.  Did you take V53 and W70 back to Leman Street?


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           1   A.  I did, yes.

           2   Q.  Was there any discussion in the car of whatever vehicle

           3       it was about what had happened?

           4   A.  Not about what had happened, sir, in my statement

           5       I actually did most of the talking.  Part of my role is

           6       to make sure that they don't talk and I've got down here

           7       that I have actually said there is to be no conferring

           8       about the incident itself and then I told them what

           9       would happen during the post-incident procedure.

          10   Q.  In very broad terms what did you tell them would happen?

          11   A.  Initially, that it would be a very long process.  We

          12       would return to Leman Street, that they would go to

          13       an area where they could physically put down the

          14       weapons, if need be, to get into a change of clothes.

          15       They would be asked to see a forensic medical examiner,

          16       they would have access to legal advisors, they would be

          17       spoken to by the post-incident manager, the DPS, the

          18       Department of Professional Standards, for the

          19       Metropolitan Police, they would be spoken to by the

          20       IPCC, and that it would take a very long time and just

          21       talk about the mechanics of there would be a make safe,

          22       a count back, a handover procedure, at some point we

          23       would get the detail so we could then get the legal

          24       authority authorised for them and just maintain the

          25       records and assist with the PIM manager.


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           1   Q.  Did you have any pastoral role beyond telling them that?

           2   A.  Initially welfare and support, just to be there for them

           3       if they have any concerns, if they may realise that they

           4       need to get home to speak to somebody and they cannot

           5       make the phone call, I could make it for them, just

           6       generally assisting them and also later with the PIM

           7       manager to facilitate the PIP process.

           8   Q.  Were you actually involved yourself in any interviews or

           9       note taking or statement making after that?

          10   A.  No, sir.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Could you wait there, please?

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, Mr Straw?

          13                      Questions by MR STRAW

          14   MR STRAW:  Thank you.  Officer, when you got to the scene,

          15       you've described talking to several officers, several

          16       different officers, Mr Elliot -- there was W42; is that

          17       right, you talked to several officers at the scene?

          18   A.  That's correct.

          19   Q.  Then what time did you go and leave with V53 and W70 in

          20       the car?

          21   A.  18.55.

          22   Q.  What time did you arrive at Leman Street?

          23   A.  (Pause)

          24           I believe it was about 20 minutes later, sorry,

          25       I have got it written down.


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           1   Q.  No problem.  Your statement says 19.18?

           2   A.  That's correct, 19.18.

           3   Q.  So around 23 minutes later.  Once you arrived at Leman

           4       Street did you then go to liaise with the post-incident

           5       manager, the Federation solicitors and so on?

           6   A.  Initially try and find the post-incident manager, who

           7       was Mr Evans, for the evening, the officers then go to

           8       their designated area and then go to make the phone calls

           9       to liaise with the legal advice to start coming.

          10   Q.  Would it be fair to say then that you don't know what

          11       V53 and W70 were talking about before 18.55 --

          12   A.  No, sir.

          13   Q.  -- or after 19.18 when you got to Leman Street?

          14   A.  No, sir.

          15   MR STRAW:  Thank you very much.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, thank you.  Any other questions

          17       anybody?  No.

          18           Mr Stern?

          19                      Questions by MR STERN

          20   MR STERN:  Just one matter, if I may.

          21           You told the officers in the car, according to your

          22       statement, that it would be an independent investigation

          23       into the shooting and that there should be no conferring

          24       regarding the reasons why the person was shot as it was

          25       an individual decision, based on a person's honestly


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           1       held belief at that time.

           2   A.  That's correct, sir.

           3   Q.  Indeed, if we look at CS2304, it's your note, if we can

           4       focus in.  I think somebody has actually translated what

           5       you have written there, but is it your handwriting?

           6   A.  It is, sir.

           7   Q.  Does it say "1855-1918, no talk re incident"?

           8   A.  It does, sir.

           9   Q.  We can see V53's name, or acronym, is there as well.

          10   A.  That's correct.

          11   Q.  Why did you make a note of that?

          12   A.  Because it's important to record the fact there was no

          13       talk re the incident and also that I've reminded them

          14       about there was no talking.

          15   Q.  Did they take that seriously?

          16   A.  Yes, sir.

          17   Q.  Was there any talk of the incident during the -- in the

          18       car or in that journey?

          19   A.  No, sir, it was my initial welfare questions and then me

          20       talking about the PIP process itself.

          21   Q.  Were you present at all when they made their statements

          22       on 7 August?

          23   A.  Only present in the building to assist with

          24       administration of the day just to make sure that people

          25       don't -- Leman Street is still an active firearms


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           1       station and people are coming and going all the time for

           2       parades/de-parades, to make sure they don't encroach

           3       into that area where the officers are doing their notes,

           4       so just to assist with that kind of administration

           5       really.

           6   Q.  The whole post-incident procedure you told them would

           7       last somewhere in the region of eight to ten hours?

           8   A.  That's right, sir.

           9   Q.  So there's a fairly rigorous routine of individuals who

          10       V53 had to see and the others had to see as well?

          11   A.  It is.  Every officer, if they wish, can have access to

          12       a legal advisor, you get spoken to as a group by the DPS

          13       and IPCC representatives.  Obviously there were time

          14       delays in getting those people there.  The IPCC can take

          15       a while, as can the DPS and sometimes there's moments

          16       when officers can sit down waiting for the process to

          17       begin and evolve and that's when we're there just to

          18       make sure they have access to food, drink and make sure

          19       they are physically okay, and just to, say, look after

          20       them.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Of course, you were aware that they

          22       had just come on duty.  They are expected, I think, to

          23       be part of a team going until at least 2 o'clock in the

          24       morning?

          25   A.  That's correct, sir.


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           1   MR STERN:  Each of them have to see the doctor --

           2   A.  Yes, sir.

           3   Q.  -- each of them is entitled to see the solicitor --

           4   A.  Yes, sir.

           5   Q.  -- we have already heard, yesterday, and each of them is

           6       entitled to have food, drink and the various other

           7       things, aspects of welfare that were important for them?

           8   A.  That's correct, sir.

           9   Q.  I think when you saw V53, he was in the control

          10       vehicle -- what we call the control vehicle, the

          11       Discovery, at the back --

          12   A.  That's right.

          13   Q.  -- and he was quiet?

          14   A.  Yes.

          15   Q.  That's when you asked Inspector Elliott, no longer W55,

          16       if you could take V53 back to Leman Street?

          17   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          18   MR STERN:  Thank you.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Keith?

          20   MR KEITH:  No, thank you, sir.  There's nothing else

          21       arising.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood, back to you.

          23   MR UNDERWOOD:  Likewise, thank you.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then, I have no questions,

          25       Mr Hartshorn.  Thank you very much for coming forward


                                           217
 

 

 


           1       and assisting us.  That concludes your evidence.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  I make good on my bribe, we finished without

           3       needing to sit tomorrow.

           4           Can I just talk about next week, sir?

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please, that would be useful.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Ideally we would sit at 12 o'clock on Monday.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I did mention that and I think we

           8       are all ready for that.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Again, we've got quite a busy week.  We will

          10       start with the paramedics, or at least one of the

          11       paramedics at the scene, and the HEMS doctor, we will

          12       deal a firearms trainer Mr Dobinson, all on Monday.

          13           Then we move into a number of senior officers and

          14       the officers at the scene who were there to deal with

          15       exhibits and placement and so on, and recording of

          16       things.  So the issues about where the gun was and

          17       whether it was marked properly when left will be dealt

          18       with by them and various other issues about what was in

          19       the minicab and so on.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Well, there we are, that's

          21       a taste of what's going on next week, members of the

          22       jury.  So thank you for your hard work this week.  As

          23       I say, you are not required tomorrow, so thank you very

          24       much for that.  So if you would like to leave us now and

          25       be ready, remembering all those warnings that I've given


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           1       you, please.  So continue to be very mindful of that,

           2       and be ready for a 12 noon start on Monday then.  Thank

           3       you very much.

           9   (3.54 pm)

          10                          (Ruling given)

          11   (4.01 pm)

          17   (4.02 pm)

          18        (The Inquest adjourned until 12.00 pm on Monday,

          19                         28 October 2013)

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25

                                           219
 

 


           1                              INDEX

           2                                                       PAGE

           3   Submissions by MR KEITH ..............................1

           4   Submissions by MR STERN .............................22

           5   Submissions by MR STRAW .............................29

           6   W42 (continued) .....................................32

           7       Questions by MR THOMAS ..........................32

           8       Questions by MR STERN ...........................99

           9   W56 (sworn) ........................................112

          10       Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................112

          11       Questions by MR THOMAS .........................126

          12       Questions by MR STERN ..........................132

          13       Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........133

          14   POLICE CONSTABLE RICHARD GREEN .....................136
                         (affirmed)
          15
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................137
          16
                   Questions by MR STRAW ..........................148
          17
                   Questions by MR STERN ..........................154
          18
                   Questions by MR KEITH ..........................160
          19
                   Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........165
          20
               PC GARETH HUGHES (sworn) ...........................168
          21
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................169
          22
                   Questions by MR STRAW ..........................170
          23
                   Questions by MR KEITH ..........................171
          24
               INSPECTOR BRIAN ELLIOTT (sworn) ....................172
          25
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................172

                                           220
 

 

 


           1
                   Questions by MR MANSFIELD ......................183
           2
                   Questions by MR KEITH ..........................202
           3
                   Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........205
           4
                   Further questions from MR KEITH ................208
           5
                   PC STEVE HARTSHORN (affirmed) ..................209
           6
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......................209
           7
                   Questions by MR STRAW ..........................213
           8
                   Questions by MR STERN ..........................214
           9
               (Ruling given) .....................................219
          10

          11

          12

          13

          14

          15

          16

          17

          18

          19

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                           221