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Full Hearings

Hearing: 11th June 2008, day 33

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ROSEMARY NELSON

PUBLIC INQUIRY

 

 

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held at:
The Interpoint Centre
20-24 York Street
Belfast BT15 1AQ


on Wednesday, 11th June 2008
commencing at 10.15 am


Day 33

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

1 Wednesday, 11th June 2008

2 (10.15 am)

3 (Proceedings delayed)

4 (10.35 am)

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Donaldson, I understood you wanted to make

6 a submission.

7 Submissions by MR DONALDSON

8 MR DONALDSON: That is correct, sir. It is more, I suppose,

9 by way of information and in this respect I should point

10 out, and it would be no surprise to the Panel, that we

11 have made an application for judicial review of the

12 decision which you handed down yesterday, sir. That

13 application includes an application for interim relief

14 that the witnesses in this category should not be called

15 until a decision is made. Therefore, I thought we

16 should draw that to the Panel's attention.

17 What is happening this morning, a judge has been

18 appointed to hear this. He may at this moment be

19 hearing the application but I know definitely that it

20 will be heard this morning. I think, sir, we should

21 formally ask the Tribunal not to call these witnesses

22 until we hear what the decision of the High Court is.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Donaldson, the answer is no,

24 we reject your application. We will adjourn for a short

25 time.

 

 

2

 

1 (10.36 am)

2 (Short adjournment)

3 (11.05 am)

4 MR BARRY ANTHONY TOMAN (sworn)

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?

6 MR SAVILL: Sir, before we begin this stage of the evidence,

7 could I just indicate to you, your colleagues and those

8 present that we have, in what I believe is now the

9 traditional fashion, tried to be as helpful as we can by

10 handing out some tables which set out the relevant

11 witnesses in relation to the issue of complaint.

12 Can I indicate very briefly at this stage that it

13 has not been possible to group each complaint by client

14 and officers following one another back-to-back. What

15 we have, I hope, been able to do is at the very least

16 call those clients who will be giving oral evidence in

17 advance of those officers who will be dealing with the

18 complaint.

19 I will be dealing with this area of the evidence

20 obviously today and up to the summer break, but I think

21 I am right in saying that it will not be possible to

22 conclude all the oral evidence in this area prior to

23 that. So it will run over the summer.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Savill.

25 Questions by MR SAVILL

 

 

3

 

1 MR SAVILL: Could you give us your full name, please?

2 A. Barry Anthony Toman.

3 Q. It is right to say, I think, Mr Toman, that you have

4 kindly given a statement to the Inquiry and I wonder if

5 this could be put up on the screen, RNI-843-027

6 (displayed).

7 I think we can see at RNI-843-031 your signature and

8 date at the bottom of that statement. Is that right?

9 A. That is right.

10 Q. Mr Toman, I would like you to, if you could, please, to

11 cast your mind back to 1997, some considerable time ago.

12 Can I assist you at the very outset by saying this is

13 not a test immediately of your memory. If you cannot

14 remember something as long ago as that, then please tell

15 me and we will try and find a way to explore it

16 together.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It is right to say, I think, at the beginning

19 of February, on 11th February, in fact, you were

20 arrested by the police?

21 A. That is correct, yes.

22 Q. Could we call up, please, RNI-205-002 (displayed), we

23 can see a statement of arrest there. The middle of the

24 page, date of arrest, not very clear,

25 11th February 1997, 9.45 am, and I think it says

 

 

4

 

1 Dungannon station at the bottom there. Can you see

2 that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If we also look over the page to 003, we can see again

5 your name and the date, 11th February. This is

6 a medical form and we can see at the top that you were

7 in fact examined -- top right -- Gough station or

8 office.

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Just so we are clear, you weren't taken immediately to

11 Gough Barracks?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, you were taken to Gough Barracks. Could you just

14 tell me very briefly the circumstances of that? You

15 were arrested at home?

16 A. I was arrested at home and was took to Gough Barracks on

17 suspicion of a rocket attack on Kilwilke Estate.

18 Q. I think it is right, when you were being taken or when

19 you were at Gough Barracks, that you wanted to

20 solicitor?

21 A. That is correct, yes.

22 Q. Who was that?

23 A. Rosemary Nelson.

24 Q. Could you just help me, please, to understand why was it

25 that you in fact requested Rosemary Nelson as opposed to

 

 

5

 

1 anybody else?

2 A. I requested Rosemary Nelson because she was a local

3 solicitor and a very good solicitor at that, very

4 trustworthy.

5 Q. Had you used her services before?

6 A. Yes, I had.

7 Q. Could we just go back to your statement at RNI-843-027

8 (displayed). If we look at the second line of that

9 document, paragraph 1, you can see that you say:

10 "Rosemary was very good at her job and she always

11 tried her best for you and understood you."

12 A. That is correct, yes.

13 Q. "There was not a big choice of lawyers that I could call

14 around here and so because I had used Rosemary before

15 and she was really good, I continued to use her when I

16 was arrested."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr Toman, I am on occasions going to do what I have just

19 done, which is to draw your attention to certain

20 passages in your statement and read them to you. I am

21 trying to be helpful when I do that.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If, for some reason, you don't agree with what is

24 written there or you want to add anything, would you

25 please do that?

 

 

6

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. When you asked for Rosemary Nelson, where

3 were you when you did that?

4 A. To my knowledge, I think I asked for when I was arrested

5 at the house, when they read me my rights at the house.

6 Q. Can you tell me what the reaction, either at the house

7 or latterly at the police stations, plural, was when you

8 asked for Rosemary Nelson?

9 A. To the best of my knowledge, there was none. They

10 seemed to know anyway that I had already required

11 Rosemary from the house, when I asked.

12 Q. Yes. Sorry, go on. You were going to say something?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You say, if we can look at page RNI-843-028 (displayed),

15 the top paragraph, the last three lines:

16 "I asked for Rosemary again but they still didn't

17 say anything. I don't think they was surprised that I

18 was asking for her. The police usually know who you are

19 going to ask for and most people from the

20 Kilwilke Estate would have called her."

21 A. That is right, yes.

22 Q. Could you just expand, please, on that last sentence for

23 me?

24 A. That is who most would have called, to Rosemary. She

25 was a local solicitor for everybody in the area and, as

 

 

7

 

1 I say, she was very good at her job.

2 Q. Thank you. Turning your attention to being at

3 Gough Barracks; yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you just very briefly describe, and obviously I

6 don't want to a minute-by-minute account, if you could

7 remember it, that is, the routine that followed whilst

8 you were being detained and questioned?

9 A. Yes. I was taken in that morning, took to a cell or

10 took for a medical, took to the cell, asked for

11 a solicitor.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Still no reply. I more or less sat there for about half

14 an hour before the interview started.

15 Q. Yes, and you were then interviewed.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Quite often, quite a number of times. We will come to

18 that in a moment.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You were interviewed by pairs of detectives, I think I

21 am right in saying?

22 A. That is correct, yes.

23 Q. You were interviewed for differing periods of time,

24 returned to your cell --

25 A. Yes.

 

 

8

 

1 Q. -- and then you would be interviewed again.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This continued over a number of days until your release,

4 which I believe was 14th February.

5 A. That is right, yes.

6 Q. During your period in custody there, at Gough, are you

7 able to tell us today how often you recollect seeing

8 Rosemary Nelson?

9 A. Maybe twice a day or maybe three times a day. It

10 depends.

11 Q. Each day?

12 A. Each day, yes.

13 Q. Yes. Could we just, please, have a look again at your

14 custody record, page RNI-205-007 (displayed)?

15 I apologise to those working the machinery. If one

16 looks in the left-hand column we have the date, to the

17 right of that we have the time. If one goes to 18.47 on

18 11th February, we can see what may become a familiar

19 piece of text:

20 "Prisoner to solicitor's room (small) ..."

21 I presume that refers to the room, not you:

22 "... for consultation with Mrs Nelson, solicitor."

23 Yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I will just run through these as quickly as I can. Can

 

 

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1 we go to page RNI-205-010 (displayed), 13.25:

2 "Prisoner to solicitor's room for consultation with

3 Mrs Nelson, solicitor."

4 We then go to RNI-205-012 (displayed). At

5 13th February, 12.47, bottom of the page -- don't

6 highlight that because I think I have got the wrong

7 page. Just excuse me for a moment. (Pause).

8 No, I am right:

9 "Interview terminated ..."

10 If we just go over to RNI-205-013 (displayed):

11 "Prisoner escorted to solicitor's room for

12 consultation with his solicitor, Rosemary Nelson."

13 If we go to 18.37 on the same day, so if one goes,

14 please, to the next page, RNI-205-014 (displayed):

15 "Prisoner to solicitor's room for consultation ..."

16 On this occasion with Mr Leeson, solicitor. Yes?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. So it is right to say that you had -- and this is my

19 word -- frequent access to your legal advisers. Is that

20 fair?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could we just go to page RNI-205-007 (displayed)? We

23 can see there some ciphers, P217 and P121, and then P228

24 and P162. These are ciphers for the detective officers

25 who interviewed you, and you were interviewed by those

 

 

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1 pairs of officers throughout your time there but in

2 addition there was a third pair at RNI-205-015

3 (displayed). If we look at the bottom of the page:

4 "Prisoner escorted from cell to int ..."

5 Then turn the page, RNI-205-015 (displayed):

6 "... room 5 by B145 and myself. Other interviewer,

7 D/com B169."

8 Those were Special Branch officers.

9 A. That is correct, yes.

10 Q. You can take it from me that this is accurate, that you

11 were in fact interviewed on 18 occasions during your

12 period at Gough. Does that sound roughly right?

13 A. Roughly right, yes.

14 Q. Yes. I would like to ask you, please, Mr Toman, as your

15 recollection today, what you can tell us about remarks

16 concerning Rosemary Nelson that may have been said to

17 you during your time in detention?

18 A. Well, any time I did ask for Rosemary, what I can

19 remember back then, they used to laugh at you and make

20 remarks, and when they were saying -- when I was being

21 interviewed about the rocket attack, they asked me to go

22 back and ask Rosemary, that she would know a lot about

23 rockets and explosives, things like that. To me,

24 I thought it was odd for them to be saying like this.

25 So what I can remember anyway, that I did tell her what

 

 

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1 they had been saying and she told me not to worry about

2 it, that it was -- that is the games they just play.

3 Q. We will come to the part of you discussing this with

4 Mrs Nelson in a moment.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But at the time, your recollection at the moment is that

7 they spoke to you about rockets and Rosemary Nelson. Is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

10 Q. Do you recall them saying anything else in relation to

11 Mrs Nelson? Or perhaps if I can ask you this: do you

12 recall which -- and I use the word advisedly -- type of

13 officer made these comments? Was it the detective CID

14 officers or the Special Branch officers?

15 A. You see, some of them -- some of them didn't identify

16 themselves and some of them did, when they were

17 speaking. But --

18 Q. As I said at the outset, Mr Toman, it was many years ago

19 and I want to be fair to you. So let me ask you: would

20 it be right that you are struggling, as it were, to

21 recollect from your memory now who said what and when?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Right. Let me try and help you. Let us look, please,

24 at your Rosemary Nelson Inquiry statement, RNI-843-029

25 (displayed). We can look, please, at paragraph 9 and

 

 

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1 again I will just read that. You can see that:

2 "Just before they had to let me go, I spoke to

3 Rosemary and she told that they had applied for an

4 extension of time to keep questioning me but they had

5 failed. When I went back in for questioning, a couple

6 of Special Branch guys turned up to interview me."

7 Yes?

8 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

9 Q. "They don't always identify themselves but these two

10 must have done, as I knew they were Special Branch ...

11 they just appeared at the end."

12 You say.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If we look over the page to RNI-843-030 (displayed),

15 sixth line down you say:

16 "It was these officers that said that they were

17 either going to 'get Rosemary killed' or 'have her

18 killed anyway' when they were taking me back to my

19 cell."

20 A. That is correct, yes.

21 Q. "I think they said this after they threatened me and

22 I told them to repeat what they said on tape for my

23 solicitor to hear and this is when they said it didn't

24 matter because they were going to get her killed or have

25 her killed anyway."

 

 

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1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. This is the statement that you gave to the Inquiry. If

3 we just look at one or two aspects of what I have read,

4 first of all, who said it? You say there that they were

5 the Special Branch officers.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that what you are saying?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also say that these officers just appeared at the

10 end.

11 A. Yes, when the interview was over.

12 Q. So they had interviewed you and it was after they had

13 interviewed you that this was said.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was it said in the interview room or somewhere else?

16 A. In the interview room.

17 Q. The three of you were present?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As for what they said, they made -- and again these are

20 my words -- remarks threatening or vaguely promising

21 that Rosemary Nelson would be killed?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. No mention of rockets?

24 A. Not then, no.

25 Q. Or anything like that?

 

 

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1 A. No.

2 Q. Was that a separate occasion?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. We will come to that in due course.

5 What was being discussed at the time, when these

6 remarks were made? Can you remember?

7 A. I am just reading through this.

8 Q. Because, as I have read, if you are reading your

9 statement, they have been making, you say, threats

10 against you.

11 A. Yes, that's right, yes.

12 Q. And you said:

13 "Repeat what you said on tape for my solicitor to

14 hear."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did you mean by that? Because the interview wasn't

17 being tape recorded, was it?

18 A. That's right, yes, it wasn't, no.

19 Q. So what did you mean?

20 A. It was evidence that they were threatening and I wanted

21 them to say it on tape but --

22 Q. So you were, as it were, theoretically saying: were I to

23 have a tape recorder here, you put that on tape.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I see. What was your reaction when these remarks about

 

 

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1 Rosemary Nelson's life were made?

2 A. It was very scary, to tell you the truth. I know what

3 it is like to have threats made against me, and to have

4 it made against a solicitor, I thought it was very --

5 very strange and very scared of it, like, to tell you

6 the truth.

7 Q. Were you taken aback?

8 A. Pardon?

9 Q. Were you surprised?

10 A. Yes, I was surprised all right, yes.

11 Q. What did you say or do in response to these words, apart

12 from what you have already told us about saying it on

13 tape?

14 A. I never said anything after it. It was what I said, I

15 was very shocked at it, like.

16 Q. You didn't say, for example, "What on earth do you mean?

17 How are you going to do that? You can't be serious?"

18 A. No.

19 Q. You said nothing other than "Say it on tape."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, you did in fact give a written account of what had

22 gone on at Gough Barracks prior to giving a statement to

23 the Inquiry, didn't you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we could, please, call up RNI-114-112 (displayed), we

 

 

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1 can see a document that has your name at the top of it,

2 your age and we will come to the detail in a moment,

3 some detail about what went on at Gough Barracks; yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recollect this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If we look down to the bottom of the page, in the next

8 interview, the paragraph begins:

9 "... they asked if I had seen Rosemary and I said

10 yes. They sad what is Rosemary tell you? They said

11 Rosemary knows a lot about rockets and started laughing.

12 You and Rosemary and [blank] shot the rocket. They new

13 all about me, where I was signing on, my job,

14 et cetera."

15 You then go on to say:

16 "They said I had got the wrong advice -- look at how

17 many people she put away. They said she was the one who

18 touted and I'm going to be shot."

19 If we turn over the page, please, the top paragraph,

20 RNI-114-113 (displayed):

21 "They went out of the room and came back and said

22 'he's hiding something, we need to get it out of him,

23 the fine bastard, you're dead. Tell Rosemary she's

24 going to die too."

25 Do you see that?

 

 

17

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If we look to the next paragraph, you say:

3 "I went back to the cell and they asked if I'd asked

4 Rosemary about explosives. They said 'tell us your

5 part'. I didn't say anything. I was brought back to

6 the cell for half an hour and interviewed again. Two

7 Special Branch men."

8 You then go on to say various comments were made

9 after you raised the presence of Special Branch men;

10 yes?

11 A. That is right, yes.

12 Q. You don't, obviously, mention in your Rosemary Nelson

13 Inquiry statement certain matters, namely the comments

14 we have looked at on page 112 about the rocket. This

15 statement was given before your Rosemary Nelson Inquiry

16 statement, so are you content to say to us that those

17 rocket remarks were made.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is there a reason why you didn't raise them specifically

20 in your Rosemary Nelson statement, because you were

21 shown this second statement, weren't you?

22 A. Yes, I was, yes.

23 Q. But they were definitely said?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Just so I am clear, who said these -- if I can call it

 

 

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1 this -- abusive remarks about rockets and touting?

2 A. Special Branch.

3 Q. But if we look, please, at RNI-114-112 (displayed) --

4 you will forgive me for going through this in a little

5 detail -- you begin in the first paragraph -- don't

6 highlight this please -- to tell us the background of

7 being taken into custody, the second paragraph being

8 taken to Gough, and then the third paragraph you say,

9 first line:

10 "Two detectives, they didn't identify themselves."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You say in the second line -- and I am going to count

14 through the interviews:

15 "After the first interview ..."

16 Yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then the first line of the next paragraph:

19 "I was brought back to my cell for 15-20 minutes

20 before another interview."

21 Which makes two; yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The next paragraph:

24 "At the next interview ..."

25 Which makes three; yes?

 

 

19

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then the last paragraph on that page:

3 "In the next interview ..."

4 Which makes four?

5 A. That is correct, yes.

6 Q. You see what I am driving at?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Time seems to have been compressed rather, in this

9 statement; yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And there is no mention at the bottom of the page of

12 Special Branch officers. You only mention them later on

13 the next page, which we have looked at.

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that there seems to be

16 some confusion as to who was saying what.

17 A. It's what I said, some of them identified themselves,

18 some of them didn't, you know what I mean.

19 Q. Let us look at it like this. There are two sets of

20 remarks that you have told us about.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What I am calling abusive remarks and remarks relating

23 to Rosemary Nelson's life. Obviously you don't know who

24 they were, and I am not asking you that, but you have

25 got CID officers and Special Branch officers.

 

 

20

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did the same type of officers mention both comments,

3 both sets of comments, or were they different? What are

4 you saying?

5 A. To the best of my knowledge, I think it was the same

6 ones who made the threats.

7 Q. And by the same ones, what do you mean by that?

8 A. CID.

9 Q. CID?

10 A. Or Special Branch or CID.

11 Q. Special Branch or CID?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Again, I want to be as fair as I can. In your statement

14 to the Inquiry you say that it was Special Branch

15 officers, when they were taking you back to your cell,

16 who made remarks concerning Rosemary Nelson's life. In

17 this second statement you raise different comments and

18 don't mention the Special Branch officers making

19 particular comments, either of abuse or relating to

20 Rosemary Nelson's life. Do you understand?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So, just finally -- and I will move on -- who do you say

23 said what?

24 A. Again, it was CID or Special Branch, you know what

25 I mean? I can't go back that far, further like, but I

 

 

21

 

1 would say, if it was in the statement I gave, I think it

2 was CID that were back in my mind.

3 Q. I am sorry, I didn't quite follow that. You finished

4 a sentence, the CID what, sorry?

5 A. Who made the threats.

6 Q. You mean just the threats?

7 A. Yes. That's what's in the statement, isn't it?

8 Q. Well, as I have said, in your statement to the Inquiry

9 you say that it was Special Branch officers who made

10 threats against Rosemary Nelson's life, but that is not

11 what you say in a statement given nearer to the time.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What I am asking you today is which is it? And if you

14 can't be sure now, then please say so.

15 A. It's whatever's in the statement that I gave at that

16 time.

17 Q. Was right, is that what you are saying?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So the statement given earlier -- and we will come to

20 the circumstances of that in a moment -- makes it seem

21 that you are suggesting the CID officers made abusive

22 remarks; yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But there were no remarks made by the Special Branch

25 officers at all; yes?

 

 

22

 

1 You see, if we look over the page at RNI-114-113

2 (displayed), that third paragraph from the bottom, that

3 is the first time you mention Special Branch men and

4 there is no mention of any death threats or indeed any

5 abuse coming from those officers. Do you see that.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So today -- again, I am sorry to press you -- what, if

8 anything, do you say the Special Branch officers said?

9 A. Well, I know that at that time there was threats made,

10 but now that -- reading back through this, what I have

11 said -- it could have been CID or Special Branch.

12 Q. So you are not sure who made the threats against

13 Mrs Nelson?

14 A. Yes. That's right.

15 Q. Again, in fairness to you, despite the fact that in your

16 statement to the Inquiry you seem to be clear in saying

17 that they were Special Branch officers on the way back

18 to your cell.

19 A. That's what I am saying, they could have identified

20 themselves as anybody.

21 Q. Well, if we look at page RNI-843-029 of your statement

22 (displayed), third line from the bottom:

23 "They don't always identify themselves but these two

24 must have done as I knew they were Special Branch. They

25 just appeared at the end."

 

 

23

 

1 A. Yes, I see that, yes.

2 Q. Perhaps I will move on from this.

3 We have discussed the statement given closer to the

4 time; do you remember the circumstances in which you

5 came to give that statement, the statement at

6 RNI-114-112?

7 A. No, I can't, no.

8 Q. Do you recall to whom you gave it? No? I am sorry, it

9 should be RNI-114-112 (displayed). Do you recall

10 anything about how that statement was given? Do you

11 recall how soon in relation to your release it was

12 given?

13 A. It may have been two weeks after, I think.

14 Q. Do you remember where you gave it?

15 A. It was in Rosemary's office, I think.

16 Q. Let us have a look at your Rosemary Nelson Inquiry

17 statement at RNI 843-030 (displayed), paragraph 10. You

18 say:

19 "I made a statement about the incident, which is

20 attached ..."

21 Which is what we have just looked at:

22 "... a day or two after the incident."

23 A. That is right, yes.

24 Q. "I have read through the statement and can confirm I am

25 still happy with the content. However, given the

 

 

24

 

1 passage of time my memory of the incident is obviously

2 more vague now. I remember going to a community centre

3 and making this statement or someone came to see me to

4 take the statement."

5 A. That is right, yes.

6 Q. "I was never asked to sign a copy."

7 Is that accurate now?

8 A. Yes, it is, yes.

9 Q. Let me just ask you: did you, as it were, speak

10 uninterrupted to give that statement or were you asked

11 questions? How did the statement taking occur?

12 A. I think it was just two people come at that time. It

13 was anybody arrested or anything, was given threats,

14 went to the community centre to make their statement.

15 I remember now what it is.

16 Q. But what I am asking you about is the actual taking of

17 the statement, how did that take place? Did someone sit

18 opposite you and asked you a lot of questions which you

19 answered or did you just speak uninterrupted?

20 A. You just spoke and told them what happened.

21 Q. If we can just have a look, please, at document

22 RNI-206-069 (displayed), this is a statement from

23 a Mr Mageean and I will just read the related portions

24 of it:

25 "I was contacted in late February by

 

 

25

 

1 Rosemary Nelson, solicitor. She informed me she had

2 been threatened via a number of her clients who had been

3 detained in Gough Barracks. She said that the threats

4 had come from interviewing detectives. I told her that

5 we would like to take statements from her clients and we

6 then made arrangements for that to be done. So I

7 subsequently visited her offices and along with another

8 member of CAJ we took statements from a number of

9 clients. Two of these clients were ..."

10 And we see "Barry Toman":

11 "I have handed these statements to P146 ..."

12 So it seems that according to the gentleman that

13 took the statement, this was done at Mrs Nelson's

14 office. Could that be right?

15 A. I can't remember, no. I can't remember.

16 Q. So it could be right?

17 A. It could be right, yes.

18 Q. He says he was contacted in late February; yes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You were released on 14th February. So again, are you

21 able to help me with how long it was until you made your

22 statement?

23 A. I can't remember, no.

24 Q. It could have been late February or even slightly later

25 than that?

 

 

26

 

1 A. It could have been, yes.

2 Q. What did you understand the purpose of this statement

3 being taken from you was?

4 A. I thought they were just going to investigate the

5 threats against Rosemary, what I can remember.

6 Q. I am sorry, when you say "they"?

7 A. The two people that I was talking about, or talking to,

8 who gave that statement.

9 Q. I see. What about the issue or heading of a complaints

10 investigation by the police? Did you think that that

11 was on the cards, if you will forgive that expression?

12 A. Pardon?

13 Q. The issue of a complaints investigation by the police

14 into what you were alleging, did you think that that was

15 either part or the purpose, the whole purpose of this

16 statement being taken from you?

17 A. It could have been, yes.

18 Q. But you say that you gave it to the two people, thinking

19 they were going to investigate it.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you say anything to them or did they ask you about

22 what was going to be done with your statement once you

23 had given it?

24 A. I can't remember exactly what was happening.

25 Q. So you gave a statement -- and again, these are my

 

 

27

 

1 words. I want to be fair with you. You gave

2 a statement. You thought that it would allow the two

3 people to look into your complaint but you weren't

4 really sure what they were going to do with it. Is

5 that --

6 A. I didn't really understand what it was all about, you

7 know what I mean? What they were going to investigate

8 and who they were going to investigate. I knew that I

9 had passed on that there had been threats made against

10 her and that is -- and I thought that is what they were

11 going to investigate, just the threats, you know.

12 Q. But -- and I think I am right in saying this -- the

13 statement you gave to them contained abuse and threats.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you not keen or curious even to say, "Thank you for

18 taking the statement. What happens next? Where do we

19 go from here? How does this work?"

20 A. I can't remember exactly what was said. It has been

21 that long ago.

22 Q. How had you come to be in that office giving this

23 statement?

24 A. I must have been contacted at one time. As I say, I

25 can't remember when or -- it was that long ago.

 

 

28

 

1 Q. I am sorry, you can't remember how or why you were

2 there. Is that right?

3 A. Yes, it has been that long ago.

4 Q. As far as you were concerned, how were you feeling at

5 that stage about these threats and abuse? What sort of

6 state of mind did you have about them?

7 A. Thinking back now, I don't know, things was that long

8 ago.

9 Q. But what I am asking you, I suppose, is this: were you

10 very, very upset? Did you feel outraged? Or were you

11 not really bothered?

12 A. I suppose I would have been outraged at what has been

13 said, but again -- it's like everything else, it's

14 investigated and probably washed under the table.

15 Q. I am sorry, say that again?

16 A. Like everything else investigated, it's probably washed

17 under the table.

18 Q. At this point, I wonder if we could see a small clip of

19 video. This is a Panorama programme that I believe you

20 will remember appearing on. It starts just before your

21 segment.

22 (Video clip played)

23 You are saying there in that clip and in your

24 statement to the Inquiry that they were going to "get

25 her killed" or "have her killed anyway". Yes?

 

 

29

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your statement given in the office, at RNI-114-113

3 (displayed), you say in the first paragraph:

4 "... 'Tell Rosemary she's going to die too'."

5 Yes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I don't want to be picky but there is a small

8 difference, would you not agree, between the two

9 accounts "tell Rosemary she's going to die too" and the

10 different version, "get Rosemary killed" or "have her

11 killed anyway".

12 Do you understand?

13 A. Yes, I do, yes.

14 Q. Again, which was it, or are you saying to us that it was

15 words to that effect?

16 A. That it was words to that effect.

17 Q. Before you gave this statement in the office, nearer the

18 time that we are looking at now, had you told

19 Rosemary Nelson herself about these threats?

20 A. I think I did, yes.

21 Q. How did that take place?

22 A. I told her during one of the interviews I had with her

23 at Gough Barracks, if I can remember right.

24 Q. So in one of the interviews with your solicitor,

25 Mrs Nelson, you told her about which comments?

 

 

30

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. No, no, about which comments, because there are two

3 sets, aren't there, that we are concerned with?

4 A. I told her they had told me that she was going to die or

5 have her killed.

6 Q. So not the part about the rocket and getting the wrong

7 advice, how many people she had put away, she was the

8 one who touted; not that?

9 A. I told her that too, yes. I told her everything what

10 they had said to me, like I mind.

11 Q. And you told her that in a consultation?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did she say?

14 A. Like I mind, she didn't look worried or anything about

15 it. She just -- I think she was more worried me.

16 Q. Didn't she say to you, "This is jolly serious. You must

17 or we must lodge some sort of complaint or a record here

18 and now", whilst you were at the police station?

19 A. Well, I thought she would have done that, to tell you

20 the truth, but like I mind, no.

21 Q. So you are saying she didn't seem particularly worried

22 when you told her?

23 A. No.

24 Q. This was in a room in the police station at Gough?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

31

 

1 Q. And there was no suggestion that something should be

2 done about it?

3 A. Not what I can mind, no.

4 Q. Again, just help me: are you saying that these two sets

5 of comments were said at the same time or at different

6 times?

7 A. It could have been at different times.

8 Q. Sorry to keep going on at you about this, but if we go

9 back to your statement at RNI-843-030 (displayed), if we

10 look in the bottom part of the first paragraph, it was

11 these officers that you have purported to identify as

12 Special Branch on the previous page that said:

13 "... they were going to 'get Rosemary killed' or

14 'have her killed anyway' when they were taking me back

15 to my cell."

16 Yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said on the previous page that you knew that they

19 were Special Branch officers. Now, if we look at your

20 custody record, RNI-205-016 (displayed), the entry -- I

21 will read to you the bit on the previous page,

22 RNI-205-015 (displayed). It says:

23 "Prisoner escorted from cell to interview room 5 by

24 B145 and B169."

25 Then it says:

 

 

32

 

1 "Escorted prisoner from room 5 to cell with P207 and

2 myself."

3 "Myself" presumably being the author of the report.

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just take the highlight down, please. We again see

7 various entries there, going down the page, until 16.52

8 when you were released; yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is missing between -- if we take the highlight

11 down, please -- the first and only interview with the

12 Special Branch officers and your release is any

13 consultation with Mrs Nelson. Yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I have been through them before but what I just want to

16 ask you again is, if you are saying -- and if it is

17 right what you are saying -- that you told Mrs Nelson

18 about the threats to her --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- which you have told us in your Inquiry statement were

21 made by Special Branch officers while they were taking

22 you back to your cell, where was the opportunity to do

23 that after the interview with Special Branch?

24 A. I don't know. I definitely did see her, I know that.

25 Q. I am not disputing -- I hope you understand -- that you

 

 

33

 

1 saw Mrs Nelson, but you have said to us that you told

2 her about all this.

3 A. I did indeed, yes.

4 Q. So you definitely, having even seen the custody record

5 I have just shown you, maintain that the threats and the

6 abuse were made to you and you told Mrs Nelson about

7 this --

8 A. That is correct, yes.

9 Q. -- in a consultation?

10 A. Yes.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: You definitely told Mrs Nelson about it at

12 Gough Barracks. Is that right?

13 A. That is right, yes.

14 MR SAVILL: Thank you, sir.

15 I was just going to then ask that paragraph 10 of

16 your statement, RNI-843-030, is put up (displayed).

17 I hope you take it from me -- and I will be corrected --

18 that there is no reference in your statement to the

19 Inquiry about telling Mrs Nelson about this in

20 a consultation, but you say -- and I am looking at the

21 fourth line down:

22 "I remember going to the community centre and making

23 this statement or someone came to see me to take this

24 statement."

25 We have talked about this:

 

 

34

 

1 "I was never asked to sign a copy. I am not sure

2 what happened to my complaint but Rosemary said she

3 would follow it up. When I told Rosemary about what

4 they said about her, she wasn't panicking or anything.

5 She didn't seem that worried. I specifically went to

6 see her to tell her about it when they let me out."

7 Now, let me suggest to you that, "I specifically

8 went to see her to tell her" -- and I think you have

9 probably guessed what I am going to say -- suggests that

10 you hadn't told her before. Is that a fair reading of

11 what's in that statement?

12 A. No, I can remember telling her in Gough Barracks what

13 they said.

14 Q. Yes, but what I am asking you is, "I specifically went

15 to see her to tell her about it", I hear what you are

16 saying, that you told her in Gough, that is what you are

17 telling me, but that little sentence, would you agree

18 with me that it, as written, suggests that you hadn't

19 told her:

20 "I specifically went to see her to tell her about

21 it ..."

22 A. I probably meant then that I went back to tell her, just

23 to confirm that it was said.

24 Q. We have touched on your telling Mrs Nelson and no record

25 being made of the complaint or it being registered, and

 

 

35

 

1 I just want to ask you a little bit about that. Would

2 it be fair of me to say that, given your reaction to

3 these comments by the police, there were opportunities

4 for you independently to complain or register your

5 complaint whilst being detained?

6 A. That is correct, yes.

7 Q. When are you saying, proportionately in relation to your

8 time in custody, they were said: beginning, middle, end,

9 very end, or are you not able to remember?

10 A. I am not able to remember.

11 Q. Because you had a number of, if I can use this

12 expression, non-police visitors, didn't you, while you

13 were being detained?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I think a doctor came to see you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Your solicitor came to see you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Indeed, I think, if we look at RNI-205-012 (displayed),

20 at 08.35, which is perhaps early for anyone to have

21 a welfare review, we can see that:

22 "I am here to carry out a review of your welfare.

23 Is there anything you want to say me regarding the ..."

24 I can't quite read that:

25 "... or your detention? He made no reply."

 

 

36

 

1 Yes?

2 A. That is correct, yes.

3 Q. I think also that if we look at RNI-205-017 (displayed),

4 we can see there, middle of the page:

5 "Have you any complaints to make against any police

6 officer while you were in police custody?

7 "I have been asked by the custody officer if I have

8 any complaints to make. My reply is no, none at all."

9 Yes?

10 A. That is right, yes.

11 Q. Again, you have probably anticipated what I am going to

12 ask you: you were given an opportunity to complain.

13 A. That is right, yes.

14 Q. Were these remarks made to you in an interview or in

15 a corridor?

16 A. Well, it says they were made in interview but the tape

17 recorder wasn't on.

18 Q. There was no tape recorder then -- or tape recording of

19 interviews.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But they aren't made in a corridor, they were made in an

22 interview room?

23 A. That's it exactly, yes.

24 Q. At the end of an interview?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

37

 

1 Q. And you were asked at the end of every interview whether

2 you wanted to sign the notes of the interview, weren't

3 you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I don't think we need to go to them, but I hope you

6 would accept -- I have looked at them -- you make no

7 reply and you decline to do that.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you have a number of visits with non-police

10 personnel, you are asked if you want to sign the

11 interview record, you are asked at the end, "Do you have

12 anything to say?" and you say, "None at all".

13 Could you just help us with why it was that once

14 these things had been said -- and you would agree they

15 were serious -- you didn't raise them? You didn't say,

16 "I want to say the following was said to me" or

17 something along those lines?

18 A. Well, I had no trust in the police. Never had, never

19 will have. And to carry a complaint, tell them,

20 I thought it would be a waste of time.

21 Q. Had Mrs Nelson said anything you to either support or

22 reject that review?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You are shaking your head. So I am clear, you didn't

25 say anything because you thought it would have been

 

 

38

 

1 a waste of time?

2 A. That's it exactly, yes.

3 Q. Why then did you go and give a statement in her office

4 about it?

5 A. I thought it would have been right to make the statement

6 to Rosemary and not to the police. It was, after all,

7 they're threatening her and it would have been easy

8 denied.

9 Q. Because it was your word against theirs, as you saw it;

10 is that right?

11 A. That's it exactly, yes.

12 Q. Had you at any time discussed with anybody else -- they

13 don't necessarily give you their names, but had you

14 discussed with anybody else what had been said to you or

15 indeed any other discussion of remarks or abuse about

16 Rosemary Nelson?

17 A. Well, I can mind one time that I heard that there was

18 threats made against her before, but that's all I can

19 remind on this.

20 Q. How does that fit in time-wise in relation to you being

21 arrested and released and giving a statement in this

22 situation, please?

23 A. I think it was before this, before I was arrested, when

24 I heard this, that there was threats made against her,

25 that there was threats made against her before I was

 

 

39

 

1 arrested.

2 Q. Again these are my words, so feel free to disagree: you

3 just heard general rumours or ...?

4 A. More or less it was just talk, yes.

5 Q. You gave this statement, and we have seen the

6 circumstances of that. Could we put up RNI-206-069

7 again, please (displayed). We can see that in the last

8 three lines that:

9 "I ..."

10 That is Mr Mageean:

11 "... have handed these statements to P146."

12 Yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me just help you and tell you that that was a police

15 officer concerned with Complaints and Discipline,

16 investigating your allegations, and you will forgive the

17 expression, as a formal complaint; yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You are taking that from me, I understand. What did you

20 know, having given the statement, about a formal

21 complaints process?

22 A. Very little.

23 Q. Had you given Mrs Nelson permission to hand this

24 statement that you had made to anyone or to use it as

25 she saw fit? How had you left it with her?

 

 

40

 

1 A. I can't remember, to tell you the truth.

2 Q. Were you aware that the statement was given to the

3 Police Complaints and Discipline branch?

4 A. I never received any letters to say that it was or

5 wasn't.

6 Q. We will come to that in a moment, but just at this point

7 I am asking you were you made aware that it was handed

8 to the Complaints and Discipline branch?

9 A. I must have been, yes, but ...

10 Q. You will forgive me but that is not the answer to the

11 question: were you aware that it was handed --

12 A. No.

13 Q. No. Were you aware of it being handed to anybody else

14 other than those people who you had given it to?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Would you, had you known it had been handed on, have

17 been happy for that to have happened?

18 Sorry, you are nodding your head. Is that a yes?

19 A. Yes, I'd say so.

20 Q. Had you made any complaints against the police other

21 than this?

22 A. Prior to this time that I have been arrested?

23 Q. Yes, and afterwards.

24 A. Yes, not that I can remember, no.

25 Q. No. You touched on correspondence and, again to be fair

 

 

41

 

1 to you, you, I think, have said -- I may get this wrong

2 "I didn't get any letters". Is that what you said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "I didn't get any letters about the complaint."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could we just, please, have a look at RNI-202-100

7 (displayed)? Now, at first blush this may seem unfair

8 because it is addressed to Rosemary Nelson, but let's

9 just have a look at this. I am not going to read it all

10 but it is "Complaint Against Police" and we can see in

11 the middle of the page:

12 "Mr Mageean provided me with two typed statements

13 from ... (2) Barry Toman."

14 Yes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This is on 21st October 1997 the letter is written:

17 "Please arrange for these men to be present at

18 either Craigavon RUC station or the Independent

19 Commission for Police Complaints on 11th November 1997

20 for an interview."

21 If we go over the page to RNI-202-101 (displayed),

22 we can see:

23 "I have sent a copy of this letter to C215 ..."

24 Which was your cipher; yes?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

42

 

1 Q. Did you get anything resembling this letter?

2 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

3 Q. Did Mrs Nelson show you this letter or ring you up and

4 say, "Hello, Barry, 11th November, 2 pm, are you free?"

5 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

6 Q. If we can go to RNI-202-113 (displayed), letter of

7 12th November 1997. If we look at the first paragraph:

8 "I refer to my telephone conversation with your

9 legal clerk ..."

10 This obviously is a letter to Mrs Nelson:

11 "... on 12th November 1997 during which she

12 indicated that ... Barry Anthony Toman still intend to

13 provide witness evidence to me during interview despite

14 their failure to attend for previously suggested

15 interviews, the dates and times of which were sent to

16 your office."

17 Yes?

18 A. I see that, yes.

19 Q. Again, my interpretation -- feel free to disagree -- but

20 it suggests, I think, that the legal clerk, Annette,

21 indicated that you still intended to provide witness

22 evidence; yes?

23 A. That is what it says.

24 Q. I see you shaking your head. That is what it says.

25 A. I know it does, yes, that's what I am saying, but ...

 

 

43

 

1 Q. What I want to ask you is what did you say or do that

2 led Annette to give that indication?

3 A. I have no idea.

4 Q. So Annette wasn't repeating your instructions, if you

5 will forgive that formal way of putting it?

6 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

7 Q. 12th November 1997 is the date of the letter, and if we

8 look down to the third paragraph, we can see underlined:

9 "The only time available for these interviews is

10 Thursday morning, 20th November."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you will get the picture at this stage, Mr Toman,

15 that there seems, behind the scenes, as it were, to be

16 some activity to try and arrange interviews with you;

17 yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Going on what you have told me already, you knew nothing

20 about this?

21 A. Nothing, no.

22 Q. You didn't attend on 20th November and again,

23 presumably, you would say to us it wasn't a deliberate

24 refusal to go, it was just that you didn't know anything

25 about it?

 

 

44

 

1 A. I knew nothing about it, that is correct.

2 Q. Is that fair?

3 A. That is fair, yes.

4 Q. Once you had given this statement to Mr Mageean, you had

5 already told Mrs Nelson in custody what had been said

6 and done?

7 A. That's right, yes.

8 Q. Was there not a part of you at this stage that was

9 thinking: I wonder what has happened, what is going on?

10 I have told Mrs Nelson. I have given a statement

11 broadly to assist in looking into all this. It is

12 getting on in the year, I haven't heard anything.

13 I wonder what is going on?

14 A. As I said, I just left it to Rosemary to deal with, you

15 know.

16 Q. And she didn't contact you about it at all?

17 A. Not that I can remember, no.

18 Q. Now, we know -- and in fairness to you, I will tell

19 you -- that things moved on from the RUC's Complaints

20 and Discipline branch --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- to what is known as the Mulvihill investigation.

23 Mr Mulvihill was a police officer from the London

24 Metropolitan Police, who came to have a look at various

25 allegations, including yours, over here in

 

 

45

 

1 Northern Ireland; yes?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He -- and again it is my word -- was an independent

4 police officer. He wasn't connected with the RUC; yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you receive any correspondence or telephone calls or

7 contact with him?

8 A. Not what I can remember, no. I can't remember receiving

9 any letters from this.

10 Q. You will appreciate I am just moving on to a different

11 sender of the letters. Did Mrs Nelson contact you,

12 either by post or by phone, and say, "Barry, you will

13 never guess what, somebody else is looking into this?"

14 A. Not what I can remember, no.

15 Q. If we could now look RNI-223-053 (displayed), we can see

16 a letter to you; yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That is your address --

19 A. It is indeed, yes.

20 Q. -- under your name? Again, I am not going to read it

21 all but let us just have a look at one or two parts of

22 it:

23 "Dear Mr Toman ..."

24 I should have said, you can see in the top

25 right-hand corner that there is a big

 

 

46

 

1 Metropolitan Police symbol.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "I am writing to inform you I have been appointed by the

4 Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary to

5 further investigate in respect of complaints made by

6 Mrs Rosemary Nelson ..."

7 It goes on to explain who made them; yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. He then says in his third paragraph:

10 "I am keen to pursue my investigation quickly and in

11 consultation with the ICPC have made certain

12 arrangements towards the end of September 1998. It

13 could greatly assist the investigation if I could see

14 you in September at those premises to discuss the

15 complaint in detail."

16 Yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. "It would help matters if either you or your solicitor

19 could confirm whether these arrangements would be

20 suitable ... if you have any queries regarding this

21 matter, please do not hesitate to contact me."

22 Can we go over the page, RNI-223-054 (displayed):

23 "You will also be receiving confirmation of these

24 details under separate cover, from Mrs Geralyn McNally,

25 supervising member, ICPC."

 

 

47

 

1 I know you are sat there looking at me saying:

2 I have told you three times I have never received any

3 letters?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But let me say again, this is from Mr Mulvihill, it sets

6 things out; you have never seen that letter before?

7 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

8 Q. I am not being flippant when I say this, but it is the

9 right address?

10 A. It is indeed.

11 Q. Post was arriving at your address at that time as usual?

12 A. I would say so, yes.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you living at home on 20th August 1998?

14 A. Yes, I was, yes.

15 MR SAVILL: Bear with me. RNI-223-095 (displayed). Now, we

16 haven't had time to uncover all the addresses, but again

17 please accept from me that the address we have just seen

18 is under that black blob:

19 "I refer to my original letter to you and I attach

20 a copy ... I do appreciate the ... short notice ...

21 I hope you will be able to adjust your schedule to

22 attend at a convenient time."

23 You have never seen that letter before either?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Could we just have a look like at RNI-114-137.500,

 

 

48

 

1 (displayed), please.

2 You will be pleased to see this isn't another

3 letter. I will tell you what it is: it is a file note

4 taken by or made by a gentleman called Mr Lynch of

5 a conversation, as you can see:

6 "Ita from Rosemary Nelson's office telephoned on

7 18/9/98."

8 Yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In I suppose the middle-ish of the page you can see your

11 name.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. We will read from the top:

14 "Mrs Nelson will be attending at 12 pm ... with

15 Mr Duffy, 3 pm C204 ... 4 pm. 0122. Tuesday 22. 11 am

16 Barry Toman."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This is similar to Annette the legal clerk again. It

19 seems -- and again this is my interpretation -- that

20 somehow you have been pencilled in for an appointment at

21 11 o'clock on Tuesday, 22nd.

22 A. I can see that, yes.

23 Q. You see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we go have on the same page RNI-223-095 (displayed),

 

 

49

 

1 we have the letter of the 15th and if we look in the

2 middle paragraph:

3 "Mrs McNally ..."

4 Just reading through it:

5 "... will be in contact with Mrs Nelson to arrange

6 precise details for me to take a statement from you on

7 either Monday or Tuesday next week,

8 21st/22nd September."

9 Yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that there is a letter

12 teeing up two dates, and then we see a file note

13 suggesting that you have indeed been pencilled in for

14 11 o'clock on Tuesday, the 22nd. You didn't attend on

15 that occasion. Again, trying to be fair to you, it

16 wasn't a deliberate act on your part; you would say to

17 us today, "I didn't know anything about it"?

18 A. It is the first I have seen.

19 Q. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. RNI-223-141, please (displayed). Another letter, same

22 address, albeit blobbed out, to you:

23 "I am sorry you were unable to make the confirmed

24 appointment to see my team on Tuesday 22nd September."

25 Yes?

 

 

50

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now:

3 "However, I am encouraged to hear that you will be

4 able to see members of the Inquiry team at the ICPC

5 offices on Tuesday, 6th October 1998 at 11.30 am.

6 "Thank you for taking the time to assist, we look

7 forward to seeing you. I will also be forwarding a copy

8 to Mrs Nelson."

9 Yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Again, forgive me, it seems that someone is organising

12 things without telling you.

13 A. I can't remember what it says, to my knowledge, ever

14 agreeing to meet this panel here.

15 Q. I understand what you are saying but I hope you

16 understand my position --

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. -- when I am showing you these, that it seems that

19 people are pencilling you in for meetings and people are

20 saying, "Good news, great, we will be seeing you on this

21 date", but you yourself have never been asked or told

22 anything about it.

23 A. No.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: You were still living at home at the end

25 of September/beginning of October 1998?

 

 

51

 

1 A. That's right, yes.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

3 MR SAVILL: RNI-223-181 (displayed). This again is

4 a document you have seen recently, which is a file note

5 by a member of the Mulvihill team and it concerns -- it

6 is dated 26th October -- various arrangements for

7 various people to come in at various times, and if we

8 see again in the second paragraph:

9 "In consultation with Mrs Nelson's office, it was

10 agreed to see Mr C138 at ..."

11 Then we read down:

12 "... and Barry Toman and Colm Toman at 12 o'clock on the

13 same day."

14 So again, another example of arrangements being made

15 without your knowledge; yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And again you did not attend. Now, when you came to

18 give your witness statement to the Inquiry in,

19 I believe, May 2007 --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- if I had been taking it and I had said to you, "So,

22 Mr Toman, sitting here with you now, before we start

23 writing out the statement, what has happened to your

24 complaint" or "What has happened to the allegations you

25 made about police officers making remarks?" Yes?

 

 

52

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What would you have said in May 2007? What was your

3 understanding?

4 A. Well, my understanding -- I thought that I'd have been

5 pushed a bit harder to protect whoever the threats would

6 have been against.

7 Q. I am sorry, you thought?

8 A. That when the complaints would have been, you know, made

9 against this, that something would have been done to

10 protect whoever the threats were against. I thought

11 they'd have worked a lot harder than they did to protect

12 her.

13 Q. What I am saying is you had told Mrs Nelson, you had

14 given a statement and, to be fair to you, you say you

15 thought to the two people to help look into it, but

16 I suppose -- and it is an awful expression -- as far as

17 you were concerned, there had been no closure on the

18 incident, had there?

19 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

20 Q. No one had said to you, "Mr Toman, this is the end of

21 it". Is that right?

22 A. That's right to be saying, yes.

23 Q. So can we have a look at RNI-223-360, please (displayed)

24 now, again familiar template, as it were. 31st January,

25 and if I can help you, sir, were you still living at the

 

 

53

 

1 address we discussed on that date?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "I refer to the above complaint ... You will be aware

4 that were on 13th August 1998 I was appointed to further

5 investigate this complaint."

6 Next paragraph:

7 "I write to advise you that the DPP for

8 Northern Ireland has concluded that the available

9 evidence is not sufficient to afford any reasonable

10 prospect of a conviction of any police officer or any

11 offence in respect of the above allegations. There

12 therefore will be no prosecution against any police

13 officer in respect of these allegations. The ICPC will

14 now consider the disciplinary aspects of the case."

15 I think that, hopefully, will come under my

16 expression of "closure" to some degree; someone was

17 telling you, had written a letter to you, saying what,

18 as it were, wasn't going to happen.

19 A. Yes, I can see that, yes.

20 Q. Again, this is the first time, is it, that you have seen

21 that letter?

22 A. Well, I said to you, I've never seen any letter from

23 this before, no.

24 Q. I have perhaps overstayed my welcome a little bit on

25 what was said at the police station, but I just want to

 

 

54

 

1 hear from you finally what you say went on. You are

2 interviewed by CID officers.

3 A. Correct, yes.

4 Q. You were interviewed by Special Branch officers.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Whatever was said to you was said in the interview room.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You have agreed, I think, that abuse about rockets and

9 touting and clients and so on was said.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And there were threats against Mrs Nelson's life.

12 A. That is right, yes.

13 Q. Just these questions, please: which type of officers

14 said which of those comments to you?

15 A. Again, what I say is it could have been Special Branch

16 or CID. It could have been Special Branch or, what

17 I says, CID. But I think in my statement that I had

18 stated that it was Special Branch.

19 Q. Just if I can help you, which statement do you mean?

20 A. The statement that I gave --

21 Q. To the Inquiry?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yes. As I have asked you this, let us put up

24 RNI-843-030, paragraph 9 (displayed) five lines up:

25 "It was these officers ..."

 

 

55

 

1 Yes?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If we look at the previous page, three lines up:

4 "They don't always identify themselves but these two

5 must have done as I knew they were Special Branch."

6 A. That's correct, yes.

7 Q. Yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So are you --

10 A. It must have been the Special Branch.

11 Q. Right. It was the Special Branch and they said it to

12 you in the interview room, despite what you say over the

13 page about it being said "when they were taking me back

14 to my cell", four lines up from the bottom; RNI-843-030

15 (displayed).

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that fair? Could we just enlarge that, four lines up

18 from paragraph 9, I am sorry:

19 "It was these officers that said they were either

20 going to "get Rosemary killed" or "have her killed

21 anyway" when they were taking me back to my cell."

22 So your statement to the Inquiry is in fact wrong?

23 A. No, it is not wrong, no. Threats were definitely made,

24 like.

25 Q. Oh, yes, you are quite right, it is my fault. Your

 

 

56

 

1 statement to the Inquiry isn't quite right in relation

2 to the location, where you were when it was said.

3 A. It was definitely said in the interview room. I always

4 stated that, that it was.

5 Q. But there you say, "When they were taking me back to my

6 cell", are you saying that that means after the

7 interview?

8 A. Yes, that's what I am saying, after the interview.

9 Q. "I think they said this after they threatened me and

10 I told them to repeat what they said on tape ..."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let me just ask you one or two final questions, please.

13 I am afraid we haven't had time to produce the document

14 but, again, as you have kindly done this morning, taking

15 it from me, on 5th May 1999 a letter was written by

16 a Mr Colin Port, who was heading up the investigation

17 into the murder of Mrs Nelson, and he wrote to you

18 asking that you help him or get in touch assured you of

19 the utmost discretion, or words to that effect.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have any recollection of receiving that letter?

22 A. No, I can't, no.

23 Q. It was sent, I can tell you again, to the address we

24 have seen.

25 A. Yes.

 

 

57

 

1 Q. No recollection of receiving that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Finally, Mr Toman, you will forgive me, there is another

4 view potentially that could be taken of the letters and

5 the complaints process and your involvement in it.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That view could be that you deliberately failed to

8 cooperate with the process.

9 A. I had no reason to do that. If that was the reason,

10 I wouldn't be here today.

11 Q. So it wasn't a deliberate act on your part --

12 A. Definitely not.

13 Q. -- to say: I'm having nothing to do with it?

14 A. As I have already explained, if that was the case,

15 I wouldn't be here today.

16 Q. It might also be suggested that the allegations you make

17 against the officers were never in fact -- the remarks

18 you say were never said and that, in fact, it was an

19 effort by you to undermine or discredit the RUC. What

20 would you say to that?

21 A. I think that's proven for itself.

22 Q. I am sorry?

23 A. That she has been murdered. But again, it is for the

24 investigation to find who done it.

25 Q. Yes.

 

 

58

 

1 A. The threats were definitely made.

2 Q. They were definitely made?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR SAVILL: Mr Toman, thank you very much for what you have

5 told us so far. Could I just say at this stage, as all

6 witnesses are asked at the end of their evidence, is

7 there anything that you would like to tell the Panel,

8 the Inquiry, now, that you and I have not explored or

9 explored sufficiently while we have been talking with

10 one another?

11 A. No.

12 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Toman, just before you were released

14 without charge in February of 1997, you were

15 specifically asked, were you not, by a police officer,

16 whether you had any complaints to make?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: And you replied:

19 "No, none at all."

20 A. That is right, yes.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: You have said that threats were made to the

22 life of Rosemary Nelson when you were in Gough.

23 A. That is correct.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Were threats made to anyone else in your

25 presence?

 

 

59

 

1 A. My presence? Members of my family too were threatened.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Members of your family and yourself also?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Why did you say you had no complaint to make,

5 "No, none at all," if complaints are made not only about

6 Rosemary Nelson, threats to her life, but threats to you

7 and your family?

8 A. As I have already stated, I had no faith in the police

9 at that time.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, thank you.

11 Questions from DAME VALERIE STRACHAN

12 DAME VALERIE STRACHAN: Could I ask you, Mr Toman, you

13 commented earlier to Mr Savill that when the complaints

14 would have been made against this, that something would

15 have been done to protect whoever the threats were

16 against.

17 A. Yes.

18 DAME VALERIE STRACHAN: But worked a lot harder than they

19 did to protect her.

20 A. Yes.

21 DAME VALERIE STRACHAN: Would I be right in getting from

22 that the thought that, rather than engage in a great

23 process about pursuing complaints and writing

24 statements, what you expected to happen next was that

25 action would have been taken to protect Rosemary Nelson?

 

 

60

 

1 A. I thought that, yes --

2 DAME VALERIE STRACHAN: I see. It is interesting that you

3 didn't get any of the letters. Are you a great letters

4 man? Are you a great correspondent? Do you write

5 letters? Do you receive letters? Do you take a lot of

6 notice of letters?

7 A. I would yes, if there was letters there, I would usually

8 receive them, like, yes.

9 DAME VALERIE STRACHAN: Okay.

10 Questions from SIR ANTHONY BURDEN

11 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Mr Toman, there may be those who would

12 suggest that, because of the circumstances of your

13 arrest, that we, this Panel here today, should not rely

14 upon your evidence and that you have not told us the

15 truth in relation to what was said about

16 Rosemary Nelson. What would you say to those who would

17 doubt your honesty in this matter?

18 A. They must have something to hide.

19 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: They must have something to hide.

20 A. Yes.

21 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Okay, thank you.

22 A. At the end of the day, it's not me under investigation

23 or anything else. It's them.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Toman, nothing more you want to say?

25 A. Nothing, no.

 

 

61

 

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?

2 MR DONALDSON: We did furnish, in compliance with the

3 protocol, a list of questions, sir. Could we be given

4 a few minutes to discuss them with Mr Savill, please?

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly.

6 Mr Toman, we are going to adjourn now for

7 10 minutes. Would you mind remaining here? After that,

8 I hope you will be able to go home. Thank you.

9 We will adjourn for 10 minutes.

10 MR DONALDSON: Thank you.

11 (12.35 pm)

12 (Short break)

13 (12.55 pm)

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

15 Further questions from MR SAVILL

16 MR SAVILL: Mr Toman, your relief, I am afraid, was

17 short-lived. More from me. Brief, I hope. Two points

18 that I have been asked to raise with you. One by way of

19 clarification.

20 When I suggested to you that you had opportunity to

21 raise your complaints whilst in custody, you had various

22 visits, the welfare visit was in fact from an RUC

23 officer, wasn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So, being precise, the doctor and your solicitor were

 

 

62

 

1 the non-RUC visitors.

2 A. That is correct, yes.

3 Q. Secondly, I suggested to you that the view may be taken

4 that these remarks were never said and that you were

5 yourself attempting to discredit or undermine the Royal

6 Ulster Constabulary, and you answered that for me. I

7 would just like perhaps to take it a stage further and

8 put this suggestion to you: you were arrested with

9 a number of other people, were you not, for this

10 incident?

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. Including your brother.

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. Again, did you know the other people?

15 A. I did, yes.

16 Q. Yes. So let me take it to this further stage and

17 suggest to you, and get you to give us your views,

18 please, that in fact the allegations made by yourself

19 about comments and the subsequent non-cooperation with

20 the investigation of the complaint, was in fact part and

21 parcel, some may say, of a plan amongst those arrested

22 to thwart or discredit or undermine the police.

23 Could you give your response to that, please? I see

24 you shaking your head.

25 A. We just sat in the police station for four days getting

 

 

63

 

1 interrogated. Just to say to come out and hatch a plan

2 to discredit these police officers that made these

3 threats, I have never heard anything ridiculous more in

4 my life.

5 Q. Let me test your patience a little stage further and put

6 it in this way: had the plan been hatched, to use your

7 expression, before you were arrested?

8 A. So we sat down, we planned this before we were -- we

9 knew we were going to get arrested? This doesn't make

10 sense to me. This happened. This is realistic.

11 Threats were made. Rosemary was killed. This was no

12 plan.

13 MR SAVILL: Thank you.

14 Sir, I don't know if there is anything arising out

15 of those extra questions?

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Toman, for coming to give

17 evidence before us.

18 We will rise now until 2 o'clock.

19 (1.00 pm)

20 (The short adjournment)

21 (2.00 pm)

22 (Proceedings delayed)

23 (2.15 pm)

24 MR BRIAN SAMUEL LOUGHRAN (sworn)

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Savill?

 

 

64

 

1 Questions by MR SAVILL

2 MR SAVILL: Can you give you are your full name, please?

3 A. Brian Samuel Loughran.

4 Q. Mr Loughran, you have kindly given a statement to this

5 Inquiry. Could we put up RNI-812-122, please,

6 (displayed) and then also RNI-812-129 (displayed). We

7 can see your signature there and the date, I think

8 6th January, is it? 108? That is your statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr Loughran, I am going to ask you, if I may, some

11 questions concerning a period of time in 1997 when you

12 were detained at Gough Barracks. If you could cast your

13 mind back, I think it was approximately October that you

14 were detained. Can you tell us how long you were

15 detained for?

16 A. I think it was three days.

17 Q. Three?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you arrested on your own or with other people or --

20 A. There was other people.

21 Q. You were taken to Gough Barracks. Very briefly, could

22 you tell us, please, what happened? You were arrested,

23 interviewed ...?

24 A. Arrested, interviewed and released after three days.

25 Q. We -- that is this Inquiry -- have been unable, because

 

 

65

 

1 we believe they have been destroyed, to obtain the

2 records of this. That is why I am not being very

3 helpful. I am reliant on you.

4 You were interviewed, would you say, how many times

5 over that period? Can you remember?

6 A. Erm ...

7 Q. Roughly?

8 A. I would say maybe six or seven times a day, you know,

9 over three days.

10 Q. So would it be fair for me to say in excess of 20 times

11 over the total period?

12 A. Yes. Round about 20, yes.

13 Q. During that period were you interviewed by one single

14 police officer every time or --

15 A. No, there was always two, two in one session and then

16 a different two in another session.

17 Q. So never the same two consecutively. Is that right?

18 A. It could have been consecutively but there was always,

19 like, two different guys, maybe two of them could have

20 took two different sessions after each other.

21 Q. But they were always the same pair questioning you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that fair?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you able to help us with the -- if you will forgive

 

 

66

 

1 the expression -- type or branch of the police service

2 that these officers who interviewed you were from?

3 A. I think two of them were Special Branch and two of them

4 were CID.

5 Q. How did you know the difference between the two?

6 A. Well, it was sort of common knowledge that -- when we

7 were running about, young, like, you know, there was

8 always like the Special Branch were always sort of

9 casually dressed and the CID wore shirts and ties. That

10 is the way we always knew of them, like.

11 Q. When you say "we", what do you mean by that?

12 A. I mean any guy who had been through the experience of

13 being lifted and Gough Barracks and stuff.

14 Q. So CID, snappier dressers.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you were in custody, did you ask to see

17 a solicitor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us who that was?

20 A. Rosemary Nelson.

21 Q. I am sorry. Rosemary Nelson?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you in fact see her?

24 A. On that occasion I'm not sure if Rosemary had come down

25 to see me but I think she had sent somebody from her

 

 

67

 

1 office down.

2 Q. So you saw a legal representative?

3 A. Yes, from Rosemary's office.

4 Q. But it may not have been her.

5 A. I don't think on that occasion it was.

6 Q. Presumably, you contacted her or her offices through the

7 police?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was there any reaction from the police when you said, "I

10 would like to see Mrs Nelson" or not?

11 A. Not on that occasion.

12 Q. It may seem a strange question but why, out of the

13 Yellow Pages, as it were, did you choose

14 Rosemary Nelson?

15 A. Why did I choose Rosemary Nelson?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Well, I knew Rosemary, you know, a few years and she had

18 carried out a bit of other work for me, you know, to do

19 with a claimant.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I knew her also through my wife's family and I also knew

22 that she was a good solicitor.

23 Q. Yes. In fact, just excuse me, if we could have a look,

24 please, and have on the screen -- I am sorry, we have

25 got it there already -- the second paragraph, the first

 

 

68

 

1 two lines highlighted. You said in your statement to

2 the Inquiry that:

3 "Rosemary Nelson was a friend of my wife's family

4 and that was why I thought of her name when I needed

5 a solicitor. She was also the best solicitor to go to."

6 Yes?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If we have look at the fifth line down, a little way in:

9 "I am not sure whether Rosemary represented

10 individuals from both sides of the community. But I am

11 not sure that if someone from the other side of the

12 community came to her, then she would most certainly

13 have helped them."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that a fair summary of your views?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could we go to the same document, page RNI-812-129 on

18 the screen (displayed), and if we highlight the third

19 line to the end of that paragraph. We can see that in

20 the third line you say:

21 "Rosemary fought for everywhere, though. People

22 also went to see her about other matters such as

23 separations or personal injury cases and even if they

24 were cases that no one else would take on, she would do

25 her very best for them. She never turned anyone away

 

 

69

 

1 and she had a very good reputation."

2 Stating the obvious, that is your opinion and that

3 is why you asked to see her. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Subsequent -- or I should say, during your period of

6 detention certain things were, I believe, you say, said

7 to you about Mrs Nelson.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We have got various documents that can help us with this

10 because obviously it was a long time ago, but I would

11 just like you at the moment just to tell us, please,

12 what it is you recollect was said, who said it and when

13 they said it?

14 A. Well, in that case in 1997, the time I was lifted in

15 Gough Barracks, I was being interviewed by two

16 Special Branch men, I don't know their names, and they

17 were generally slagging off people from the area. Then

18 they came to Rosemary Nelson and had said that Rosemary

19 had got a bad deal out of life, she must have been hit

20 with the ugly stick, you know, and they were laughing

21 and giggling at this here, and they also said that,

22 "You're lucky you weren't lifted last week", or

23 something like that, I think it was last week, "You

24 wouldn't have been able to get Rosemary because she

25 would have been on her stick."

 

 

70

 

1 Because it was Halloween, you know.

2 Q. I was going to say it was that time of year, it was

3 about Halloween time.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How clearly do you remember these remarks today?

6 A. 100 per cent.

7 Q. Are you able to tell me roughly when, during the period

8 of your detention, they were said?

9 A. No, I can't. No, I couldn't. I knew it was -- I'm not

10 sure if it was the first day or the second day.

11 I couldn't really say, you know.

12 Q. That is fair enough of you to say that. Where were you

13 when these remarks were said?

14 A. In the interview room in Gough Barracks.

15 Q. What was your reaction to these remarks?

16 A. I don't think -- I can't really recall having a reaction

17 to them remarks, although some of the things that they

18 had said about local people and all, you sort of

19 giggled, like, because you sort of knew their

20 personalities and these people would have, you know,

21 sort of eccentric personalities, you know, so I would

22 have giggled, like.

23 Q. Yes. So my expression, they were picking on particular

24 peculiarities that individuals may have had.

25 A. Yes.

 

 

71

 

1 Q. Is that a fair --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you give us any examples of any other people they

4 were talking about?

5 A. I wouldn't like to mention anybody's names or anything.

6 Q. No, no, don't.

7 A. But just people who were sort of, you know -- people

8 that I would have known, that the way that they got on,

9 you know, about the area and stuff, they would have made

10 a comment about the way they would have got on, them

11 people would have got on. That is why I laughed,

12 because they sort of knew as well, you know.

13 Q. So if I had lived in the area would the fact that I am

14 bald been something that they would have picked up on?

15 A. Yes, something like that.

16 Q. So far as other frailties, if you like, or

17 characteristics, can you give any examples of those,

18 without mentioning names?

19 A. Let me see. No, I can't really recall offhand now.

20 Q. Could we call up, please, RNI-812-123 (displayed) and

21 highlight that last paragraph. You see the second line:

22 "On this occasion I was taken to Gough Barracks and

23 I was interviewed by two Special Branch men. The two of

24 them were having a conversation between themselves

25 during my interview and pretty much none of what they

 

 

72

 

1 were discussing related to why I had been arrested.

2 They came across as a bit after comedy act really and

3 pretty well rehearsed. They were slagging off people

4 generally and then came round to talking about

5 Rosemary Nelson."

6 Just pausing there, I am getting the image --

7 perhaps, I don't know, incorrectly -- that this wasn't

8 a particularly threatening situation, the atmosphere,

9 looking at your words there and what you said. Was it

10 light-hearted or nasty? How would you --

11 A. No, it was light-hearted.

12 Q. It was light-hearted?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You will forgive me for asking you, did you raise

15 a smile at some of their comments?

16 A. Yes, some of their comments I did, yes.

17 Q. If we read on, the penultimate line, and then I will ask

18 for the next page to come up:

19 "They said that she had had a bad deal out of life

20 because she must have been hit with an ugly stick about

21 ten times. They said it was as well I had not been

22 lifted during Halloween as Rosemary would have been out

23 on her broomstick and I would not have got her down.

24 They were laughing when they said these comments and

25 they were trying to see if they could get a reaction out

 

 

73

 

1 of me."

2 If we look at the next paragraph, please, 6:

3 "I remained silent through their various

4 conversations. At times, if they said something funny

5 then I might have given a smirk or something but

6 otherwise I just ignored them. It was not unusual for

7 the interviewing officers to have long conversations

8 between themselves. On this occasion, though, I don't

9 think they even mentioned what I was arrested for."

10 Is that accurate?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Can you remember how many pairs of officers interviewed

13 you? Was it two?

14 A. Two, yes.

15 Q. So were the other pair CID or Special Branch?

16 A. CID.

17 Q. So the Special Branch officers were the ones --

18 A. (Inaudible - overtalking).

19 Q. -- that sometime had made unpleasant remarks about

20 Mrs Nelson in the context of their, as you put it,

21 comedy act about other people?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that accurate?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did both of them make the remarks about Mrs Nelson or

 

 

74

 

1 just one of them?

2 A. I think it was one -- there was one there, seemed to

3 have been a wee bit wittier than the other one.

4 Q. Wittier?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Depending on which way you look at it.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You have told us that you were there for a few days;

9 yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How, when you were released, did you feel about what had

12 been said about Mrs Nelson? What was your view of it?

13 A. I didn't think it was a big deal at the time, you know,

14 because it sort of happens all the time, this, you know?

15 So I didn't really look at it as a big deal.

16 Q. You will have to forgive me. When you say, "You know,

17 it happened all the time", what do you mean by that?

18 A. Because through past experience, being arrested, they

19 would have slagged off various people. And I've also

20 heard other guys saying the same, you know, that they

21 talked about this one and they said that about that one.

22 Q. Let us just break that down, if we may. As far as your

23 previous detentions are concerned, prior to this

24 incident; yes?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

75

 

1 Q. Had there been any remarks about Mrs Nelson?

2 A. No.

3 Q. As far as other people were concerned -- I am not just

4 talking about people who may or may not have been

5 arrested, but as far as other people were concerned, had

6 you, either before this incident or after, heard them

7 talk about things police had said about Mrs Nelson?

8 A. I can't really remember if anybody had ever mentioned

9 Rosemary Nelson's name to me.

10 Q. No.

11 A. I can't remember, like, you know.

12 Q. No, no. So it was really that there was a general

13 knowledge, if you like, that slagging off people, taking

14 the mickey out of them during interviews happened.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So at the time, when you were released, you didn't think

17 very much of it.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Because what I was going to ask you is, did you decide

20 to take any action about what had been said whilst you

21 were in custody or when you were released, to make

22 a complaint?

23 A. No. A friend of mine had said to me that he had been

24 talking to Rosemary Nelson.

25 Q. I am going to come to that in a moment but let me just

 

 

76

 

1 ask you, when you were in custody and when you were

2 released, did you think: right, I must make a complaint?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Why didn't you think that?

5 A. It was just one of them things, like, you know.

6 I suppose it wasn't worth the hassle at the time, you

7 know?

8 Q. Water of a duck's back.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would that be fair?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were helpfully going to assist me by telling me

13 about something you had said to somebody else. You had

14 spoken, I believe, to someone who mentioned or prompted

15 you to do something about this. Tell us about that.

16 A. Yes. The guy had said to me that he had been up in

17 Rosemary's office seeing her and that he had mentioned

18 to this fellow what had happened, what had been said to

19 me, and when he was up seeing Rosemary he had mentioned

20 to Rosemary that I had mentioned it to him. So Rosemary

21 asked him to ask me to come up and see her.

22 Q. Crikey. Hold on. You're not in Rosemary's office?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Somebody whom we will come to look at in your statement

25 in a moment, Colm Toman, told Mrs Nelson that you had told him

 

 

77

 

1 about what had happened?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And she said to him, get you to contact her.

4 A. Aye.

5 Q. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In fact, if we look at paragraph 9 of your statement:

8 "I was not going to mention the comments that were

9 made about Rosemary because I thought they were a bit

10 embarrassing."

11 Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "However I told one of my friends, Colm Toman, about them. I

14 think he also had similar comments made to him about

15 Rosemary."

16 Why did you think that?

17 A. Sorry, why did I think that?

18 Q. Why did you think he had also had similar comments made

19 to him?

20 A. Because I think he had mentioned it to me and I think

21 that is the reason he was up in Rosemary's office at the

22 time.

23 Q. "He was up seeing Rosemary at her office and he told her

24 the comments that had been said to him ..."

25 You weren't there, of course.

 

 

78

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. "... and also told her that comments had been made to me

3 and that if she spoke to me about them, I could tell

4 her. Rosemary called me and asked if I could go and see

5 her and tell her about the comments."

6 Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you didn't ring her; she contacted you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you went to see her, how long was that after your

11 release from detention?

12 A. Erm, I'm not sure, maybe a couple of weeks. It couldn't

13 have been that long after it, like, a couple of weeks.

14 Q. A couple of weeks, you think?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you tell her precisely what had been said or did you

17 dress it up or what did you say to her?

18 A. Yes, I sort of didn't come straight out with it, like,

19 you know. I sort of -- as I say, I was a wee bit

20 embarrassed, you know, having to mention this to her,

21 and I didn't make it sound as bad as what it was.

22 Q. I am sorry?

23 A. I tried to, as you say, cover it up a wee bit, you know,

24 I didn't make it as bad as what it was.

25 Q. How did the conversation with her go? Did she say,

 

 

79

 

1 "Come on, you're not telling me everything, you can tell

2 me", or did you just --

3 A. No, no, she sort of just wrote down what was said to me

4 and I think she called one of her secretaries or

5 something and had said, "They're calling me a witch", or

6 something, you know. I think it was to sort of to cover

7 -- sure, she felt embarrassed herself.

8 Q. What was her reaction to the comments that had been

9 made?

10 A. She didn't really react that much. There wasn't much of

11 a reaction out of her.

12 Q. Because if we look at the penultimate line of the

13 highlighted section on the screen:

14 "I did this but when I told her, she just laughed

15 the comments off. I tried to put the words as nicely as

16 I could because I was a bit embarrassed ..."

17 Can we highlight that:

18 "... to tell her. She did not seem to take the

19 comments too seriously but she did ask me to prepare

20 a witness statement."

21 Which we will look at in a moment.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, if we could call up RNI-215-147 (displayed),

24 please, I think we can probably highlight the lot. We

25 have got a document which I hope you recognise.

 

 

80

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "Statement of Brian Loughran.

5 "I was lifted by the police about two weeks ago and

6 taken to Gough Barracks. Two Special Branch officers

7 interviewed me and one said that Rosemary got a bad deal

8 out of life. She must have been hit with an ugly stick

9 about ten times.

10 "He then said it was as well I had not been lifted

11 during Halloween as Rosemary would have been out on her

12 broomstick and I wouldn't have got her down."

13 I will come to the last paragraph in a moment.

14 Did you, as it were, see that statement in the office?

15 Because if we go back to the bottom of the page, which

16 isn't highlighted, we can see a signature.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was that typed and then you read it and signed it?

19 A. I'm not sure. I know that is my signature, like. I'm

20 not sure what's written has worked out, like.

21 Q. So you are not certain --

22 A. Sure it has been typed, yes.

23 Q. Is it possible, dare I say it, that you signed a blank

24 page and then something was typed in afterwards?

25 A. No, no.

 

 

81

 

1 Q. No?

2 A. Definitely not, no.

3 Q. Definitely not. So more likely than not, it was typed

4 up and you then signed it. Do you remember if you

5 signed it that day or subsequently?

6 A. I can't -- honestly I can't tell you when. But

7 I wouldn't have signed anything if there was nothing on

8 the page, like, you know.

9 Q. Well, that is perhaps not surprising.

10 A. No.

11 Q. As far as giving this statement to Mrs Nelson was

12 concerned, did you have a chat about it all and then she

13 put these words down or did she ask you questions? Did

14 you just speak at one or how did it come about?

15 A. It was just -- it was just sort of in her office for

16 a couple of minutes, give her the statement, sort of

17 thing, you know, what they had said, and then that was

18 more or less it. There was no big deal made out of it,

19 you know.

20 Q. Just looking at the last paragraph of that document:

21 "Also, about three years ago I was also being

22 questioned in Gough Barracks and I was asked what I was

23 using Rosemary Nelson for as she did all the Provos."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That is a separate time, separate sort of comment. Just

 

 

82

 

1 tell us about that, please.

2 A. Well, it actually wasn't Gough Barracks this happened

3 in, it was Lurgan Barracks, and it was on the way down

4 from -- it was on -- I think it was on the way down into

5 the interview room and a CID man had said to me that --

6 I had asked for Rosemary Nelson and he had said to me on

7 the way down, "What are you getting her for? She deals

8 with all the Provos."

9 Q. What was your reaction to that?

10 A. I sort of looked at him. He said -- I said to myself:

11 is he implying that I am a Provo because I am asking for

12 Rosemary?

13 Q. Forgive me for asking this, what did it mean or what

14 does it mean to you if someone says you are a Provo?

15 A. Back then I would have had no problem about that.

16 Q. What did the policeman mean when he said, "She does all

17 the Provos", what does that mean?

18 A. He was trying to say that Rosemary represents all the

19 Provos.

20 Q. Yes, but what are Provos?

21 A. Provisional IRA.

22 Q. Right. Presumably, you didn't take any action about

23 this comment?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Either then or subsequently.

 

 

83

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. You made a statement that included it, but would you

3 have included that on a worse or better level than the

4 comments made about Mrs Nelson and Halloween and so on

5 and so forth? More serious?

6 A. I think it would have been more serious.

7 Q. Which one, the 1994 one?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But at the time you didn't take any action in relation

10 to it?

11 A. No, I didn't, no.

12 Q. No. The next document I would like to you look at,

13 please, is RNI-215-143 (displayed) and if with some

14 assistance I could also have on the screen at the same

15 time RNI-215-147 (displayed). We have got, if it were

16 possible to, as it were, move the right-hand document up

17 the page, which I know it isn't, you would see that they

18 are identical in their content save for the dates and

19 the signature. The one we have looked at is on the

20 right, 6th November, your signature; yes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then on the left we have got 26th January 1998; yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you have got a signature of Annette Sheridan

25 underneath.

 

 

84

 

1 A. Right.

2 Q. Can you help me with how the document on the left came

3 into being, because obviously it is, as it were,

4 a different document to the one on the right?

5 A. I think I had to go and make another statement. It's

6 the same statement but I think I had to go over to

7 Lurgan police station with the same statement. So I am

8 assuming I had to sign this statement again.

9 Q. So you think that you went to Lurgan police station?

10 A. Yes, with -- what's her name, Sheridan?

11 Q. Annette Sheridan.

12 A. Annette Sheridan.

13 Q. Yes. That would have been on the day, 26th January?

14 Can we put up on the screen RNI-215-149, please

15 (displayed). This may or may not assist. It is not

16 very clear but I hope you can accept from me it is dated

17 26th January also. This is a statement given by

18 yourself and it deals with the allegations that you have

19 made in the statement that we have looked at. So if we

20 have a look at the written pages, I will try as best as

21 I can to read it:

22 "P146 has asked me to give a few more details about

23 the statement I gave him today. This was about remarks

24 made to me by police about my solicitor,

25 Rosemary Nelson. I can't remember exactly what I was

 

 

85

 

1 told but I was in for interviews [I think]. I was in

2 for three days. I can't remember which day these

3 remarks were made but Special Branch and CID spoke to me

4 each day. I know the two men were Special Branch

5 because they said they were from Special Branch."

6 Yes?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There are some descriptions and I am dropping down three

9 lines towards the end:

10 "He said just what I put in that statement I gave

11 today. The complaint is just against him."

12 Yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You then give some further descriptions. Now, that was

15 a statement given as part of the complaints process;

16 yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recollect that now, that this was what happened,

19 you were asked by someone to go and take part in this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us how that came about?

22 A. I think it was actually that Rosemary had asked me to

23 make the statement to the police.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. I think that is just -- I am not sure if it is the

 

 

86

 

1 police or I can't be 100 per cent who it was, like, but

2 I think it did happen in Lurgan police station. Apart

3 from that, I can't really remember much about this

4 statement at all, like.

5 Q. Do you remember, did Mrs Nelson go with you --

6 A. No, I don't think she did.

7 Q. -- to this interview, if you like, to give this

8 statement?

9 A. No, I don't think she did.

10 Q. But you gave this statement in any event. Could you

11 answer this question: what did you think the purpose of

12 you giving this statement was?

13 A. Well, I think that Rosemary wanted to, you know -- was

14 the one that really wanted to make the complaint, you

15 know, so I felt obliged to go along and give them

16 a statement, you know, just -- you know, to help her out

17 in what she wanted to do.

18 Q. Because I suppose you would say that the comments

19 weren't about you.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. They were about Mrs Nelson.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So to that extent you weren't bothered --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- and, my words again, had they not been about

 

 

87

 

1 Mrs Nelson, you probably wouldn't have pursued them?

2 A. No.

3 Q. But it was her persuading you to pursue it.

4 A. Well, I wouldn't say "persuade" but asked me.

5 Q. Fair enough.

6 A. And I had no problem.

7 Q. So she asked you, and you agreed.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can we just return to the bottom, just bear with me,

10 seven lines up on the document on the page, can we

11 highlight that:

12 "As regards the comment made about three years ago,

13 I can't remember exactly what the date was but I was

14 being interviewed in relation to a stolen car which was

15 left in my garage. I can't give a description of the

16 car. I think it was a man [and you say P121] from

17 Special Branch who said that. It was said when he was

18 taking me from the inquiry office at Lurgan along the

19 corridor on the way to an interview room."

20 Can you remember at that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I think I am right in saying that whilst you say in this

23 statement that I have just read, "I think it was a man,

24 P121" you are actually now of the view that it wasn't.

25 Is that fair?

 

 

88

 

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Because that is something that is in your Inquiry

3 statement, that now you know it was not P121 who said

4 that.

5 A. Yes, that is right.

6 Q. Just at this stage I think I would like to ask you about

7 the Panorama programme, which you appeared on.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was the first that you heard of that possibility of

10 that programme being made and of you appearing on it?

11 A. I can't remember. I cannot remember.

12 Q. Well, it was a long time ago. No idea how you came to

13 be on it?

14 A. I think it -- they must have got in contact with me or

15 something. I just cannot remember, like.

16 Q. The one thing I don't want you to do is guess. So can

17 we agree with each other that you don't remember?

18 A. I don't remember, yes.

19 Q. What I hope to perhaps jog your memory slightly is to

20 just show you the clip of you appearing on that

21 programme.

22 (Video clip played)

23 Probably an awful experience, seeing yourself

24 appearing on television some years ago, but does it jog

25 any memories for you as to how that came about, what

 

 

89

 

1 happened?

2 A. I can remember the interview, I can remember it was held

3 in The Ashburn but how it came about, you know, I just

4 can't be 100 per cent.

5 Q. That is entirely fair of you to say so.

6 You gave a final, if you like, version of events to

7 the Pat Finucane Centre, as well, didn't you --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- about this incident and the comments about

10 Mrs Nelson?

11 Can we look at RNI-834-233 (displayed)? Can we just

12 highlight the first paragraph only:

13 "Firstly I want to say that two years ago I was

14 arrested and taken to Gough Barracks. There the RUC

15 Special Branch made comments to me about

16 Rosemary Nelson. These were offensive remarks about

17 Rosemary and I later informed her about these. She took

18 a statement from me after my release. This was sent and

19 a complaint was made about the incident in question."

20 If we look at the very top of the screen, we can see

21 the date of the statement, it was 24th March 1999; yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. So at this stage we have the remarks being

24 made to you in custody. In a round-about way Mrs Nelson

25 finds out about them. You go and see her. You give the

 

 

90

 

1 version that is produced in the statement. Subsequently

2 to that you go and see P146 and give a formal statement.

3 Yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Then there is the Pat Finucane Centre statement.

6 Now, at that point, or at the point you have given

7 the statement to P146, the complaints officer -- yes?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. -- what was your view about how you were going to behave

10 in relation to progressing this complaint?

11 A. Erm, I actually thought -- I think -- you know, at the

12 time I didn't actually think much of it, you know? I

13 didn't think it would come to this anyway. I didn't

14 think it would go any further, like. It's just another

15 complaint and it's put away in the files and that's it,

16 sort of thing, you know.

17 Q. Let me rephrase it. Once you had given the statement to

18 the complaints officer, would you have been happy to

19 have cooperated with whatever was required to progress

20 the complaint?

21 A. Yes, I am sure -- yes, I'm sure I would have, yes.

22 Q. You see, I can't tell you because we haven't got the

23 papers, but I am just asking whether you were bothered,

24 to be honest?

25 A. Yes, I probably would've went ahead with it, yes.

 

 

91

 

1 Q. Had you lodged complaints before?

2 A. I don't think so.

3 Q. Afterwards?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can you remember, having given this statement to P146,

6 actually what did happen in relation to the complaint?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You know, whether somebody wrote to you and asked you to

9 come along and do something else, or somebody wrote to

10 you and said, "Thank you very much but this isn't going

11 anywhere". Can you remember?

12 A. I remember getting -- I can't remember -- I remember

13 getting letters but I'm not 100 per cent, you know.

14 I couldn't say if it was in relation to this here, like,

15 you know. So I can't say, like.

16 Q. If I can call up RNI-215-155 (displayed), one document

17 we have found is your name, 27th June 1998, NDA, which I

18 think means "no disciplinary action". So nothing did

19 happen in relation to your complaint in that regard.

20 There are, I believe, other threats that you can

21 tell us about in relation to Mrs Nelson, not that you

22 were privy to or made the subject of at the police

23 station but subsequently, in relation to something that

24 happened in a telephone call.

25 A. Yes.

 

 

92

 

1 Q. Before we go into the detail of that, was that, in time,

2 before or after the broomstick/Halloween remarks? Where

3 does it fit in? And again, please don't guess.

4 A. I'm not sure when them comments were made, I mean that

5 phone call. I'm not 100 per cent sure.

6 Q. As I say, better to say that than to take a stab at it.

7 This happened, I think, when you were at the

8 solicitor's office, Mrs Nelson's office; yes?

9 A. The phone call?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell us about it, please. Who was there, what happened,

13 what was said?

14 A. I had been in Lurgan town one Saturday afternoon or

15 something -- Friday, I am not sure. I had been doing

16 a couple of messages, and I came back and there was

17 a note left on my car saying to contact this number

18 right away, it is urgent. And I -- when I phoned the

19 number from the mother-in-law's house, this guy on the

20 other end of the phone introduced himself as

21 a Special Branch --

22 Q. Can I just interrupt you there? I think it is probably

23 my fault. This is a subsequent incident. I am talking

24 an occasion when you were with your wife.

25 A. Yes, I'm getting to that.

 

 

93

 

1 Q. Is this the same occasion?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sorry.

4 A. They had said that I had been getting myself into a bit

5 of bother and all, do you want it to talk about it, all

6 this sort of stuff, you know. So I took the number up

7 to Rosemary's office, asked to see Rosemary, and

8 Rosemary come in and says, "There you are, phone it

9 again". And when I phoned the number, they says,

10 "Sorry, you've got the wrong number".

11 Q. Now, it may help you if we show you paragraph 13 of your

12 statement, RNI-812-126 (displayed). It is my fault, no

13 doubt, but this is what I wanted to ask you about:

14 "I've been asked whether I can recall any other

15 instances of comments being made about Rosemary. I

16 cannot recall anything else. I did know that other

17 people had been told similar comments but I didn't know

18 any detail. I was also aware from the news that she had

19 received threats. I never discussed this with Rosemary.

20 However, I can recall that I was at her office one day

21 with my wife when she told us that she had received

22 a death threat that morning."

23 Yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So can you tell us from there, please, what was this

 

 

94

 

1 about?

2 A. Well, I think I have got my -- I think -- I have been

3 talking to my wife about that there as well and it

4 wasn't actually in her office she had said it to us.

5 I thought it was. It wasn't in her office. It was one

6 night we were out socialising and we had met Rosemary.

7 Q. Right. To use the time-honoured expression, let us

8 start again. Ignore the statement.

9 Some time Mrs Nelson told you about a death threat.

10 A. Yes. We were out socialising, myself --

11 Q. Who was?

12 A. Myself and the wife, and we had met Rosemary. She was

13 out with a couple of friends and we were talking, and

14 that is when she told us that she had got a death

15 threat.

16 Q. Where was this? Where were you socialising?

17 A. Centre Point, Lurgan.

18 Q. Forgive me, what is that?

19 A. It is like a nightclub.

20 Q. Don't be too hesitant. I know what they are.

21 A. It's a bar with entertainment.

22 Q. What sort of time of day or night was this?

23 A. It would have been well after 10 o'clock, you know. It

24 was at night-time, like.

25 Q. Who was privy to the conversation, your wife, and

 

 

95

 

1 Mrs Nelson?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How did it come up? Did she come walking over to you

4 and suddenly said, "I need to tell you something" or did

5 you say, "How are you, Rosemary?"

6 A. No, we ended up in the same company that night, so we

7 did. We were singing away and having a bit of craic,

8 you know, and then she just said it, like, you know?

9 Q. What precisely did she say?

10 A. I think it was something like, "I got another death

11 threat this morning," or something along them lines.

12 Q. How had this death threat been communicated to

13 Mrs Nelson?

14 A. I am not sure. I think it was a phone call.

15 Q. But you're not certain?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did she give any precise indication of the words used?

18 A. No.

19 Q. How did she seem about that? Was she bothered or upset?

20 A. No, she didn't seem to be. I had a bit of drink in me

21 that night as well, like, you know, so ...

22 Q. Right. Just as it were for the record, we have looked

23 at paragraph 13 and you have got that completely wrong,

24 you weren't in her office.

25 A. No, that's right, yes.

 

 

96

 

1 Q. Because you go on to say:

2 "Rosemary was very twitchy and said that someone had

3 made a call to the office."

4 It is a little bit of detail that suggests you

5 remembered this.

6 A. Yes, but -- I can remember Rosemary being twitchy one

7 day in the office but that is not that day when that

8 happened, when she said that. But she was twitchy that

9 day in the office. I cannot remember, but I remember

10 something, and I remember I subsequently talked to my

11 wife about this here and it was actually when we were

12 out one evening she had said this.

13 Q. Can you remember, in relation to your experience at

14 Gough, when it was that she told you about this death

15 threat?

16 A. No, I can't remember, no.

17 Q. No. What was your reaction when someone you knew, your

18 solicitor, said to you, "I have had another death

19 threat"? What did you say?

20 A. I can't remember what I said but, you know, I know at

21 that time that -- I know there was a lot of death

22 threats being threw about sort of thing, like.

23 Q. I am just concerned with what you thought.

24 A. I can't remember what I thought.

25 Q. You can't remember. But you didn't suggest to

 

 

97

 

1 Mrs Nelson that she made a complaint or anything like

2 that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You also, I think, can tell us about the evening of

5 Mrs Nelson's death, 15th March 1999. I think on that

6 occasion you were walking along the top of the

7 Kilwilke Estate when something happened which you can

8 perhaps tell us about.

9 A. Well, I remember making that statement about what had

10 happened.

11 Q. Just so we are clear, it is the Pat Finucane Centre

12 statement, which I will show you in a moment?

13 A. Yes, but I was -- I can't remember now, you know, when I

14 was giving this statement here and it was mentioned to

15 me again, I just -- it went straight over my head,

16 I couldn't remember about it.

17 Q. Right. I don't know about anybody else but you have

18 completely lost me there. Let us just take it from the

19 beginning, RNI-834-233, (displayed). The bottom

20 paragraph beginning "On the evening" highlighted,

21 please. Statement date 24th March 1999, we have already

22 seen:

23 "On the evening of 15th March 1999, the evening of

24 Rosemary's murder, I was walking along the top of the

25 Kilwilke Estate when an RIR patrol was driving along the

 

 

98

 

1 Shore Road/Lake Street. The RIR patrol slowed up,

2 opened up their back doors and shouted 'Dosy Rosy'.

3 They then drove on."

4 Yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Looking at your statement to the Inquiry, RNI-812-128,

7 please (displayed), can we look at paragraph 21:

8 "I've been referred to the incident I described in

9 my Pat Finucane witness statement when I mentioned being

10 close to the Kilwilke Estate on the evening after the

11 murder when a RIR patrol vehicle went past and somebody

12 shouted 'Dosy Rosy' from it."

13 I then jump down, not quoting, to three lines below

14 that where you say:

15 "I cannot really remember this incident happening

16 now as it is sort of vague in my memory. However, if I

17 had said it at the time then I would not have been

18 telling lies, so I can only stand by my recollection of

19 events at that time."

20 A. Yes. That's what I was trying to say, like.

21 Q. I thought so. So what you are saying to us,

22 Mr Loughran, is that you have absolutely no recollection

23 of this now.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But if you gave a statement in March 1999 saying that

 

 

99

 

1 this happened, all you can do today is say: why on earth

2 would I have given a statement saying it happened if

3 that wasn't what was in my mind then? Is that a fair

4 way of putting it?

5 A. That's correct, yes.

6 Q. Two final matters. Obviously we haven't explored in

7 great detail the documentary record of the complaint and

8 what was done about it and your allegations against the

9 police, but let me just explore with you the possibility

10 that in fact nothing was said about Mrs Nelson by the

11 police.

12 A. Right.

13 Q. And that, in fact, the reason for you saying something

14 had been said was an ulterior motive, for example, to

15 discredit or undermine or put in a very poor light the

16 behaviour of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. What would

17 you say were I to suggest that to you as a possibility?

18 A. Well, I can only say what was said to me, you know. It

19 makes no difference to me, you know? So, as I say,

20 I just stand by what I said.

21 Q. Finally, and I am afraid I can't show you this document,

22 but please accept from me, on 20th July you were written

23 to by Mr Colin Port, who was in charge of

24 Rosemary Nelson's murder investigation.

25 A. Right.

 

 

100

 

1 Q. He asked, following your appearance on Panorama, for

2 input, for a meeting, offering a location, certain

3 conditions of not disclosing anything that might be said

4 to RUC members and so on. Do you remember receiving

5 such a letter?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You don't?

8 A. I can't -- I know the name Colin Port. I can't remember

9 the letter.

10 Q. No. The final thing to put to you or to ask you,

11 Mr Loughran, is this: you have come along and you and

12 I have discussed various matters this afternoon. Is

13 there anything else that you would like to tell the

14 Panel, the Inquiry, today about the matters that we have

15 not touched on or you don't think that we have touched

16 on enough?

17 A. No, I think it is fair enough. No, everything --

18 Q. There is nothing you would like to add?

19 A. No.

20 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Loughran, do you remember an occasion when

22 you were in Rosemary Nelson's office, when she appeared

23 very twitchy?

24 A. Yes.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you alone with Rosemary Nelson or was

 

 

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1 anyone with you on that occasion? Can you remember now?

2 A. I can't remember. You see, being in her office that

3 many times, I cannot remember. You know, I could have

4 been with somebody, I could have been on my own. I

5 can't say. You know, I don't know.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you remember why she was very twitchy?

7 A. No. As I say, earlier on I have got it mixed up.

8 I thought it was because she had told us that she had

9 got a death threat.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.

11 A. But I don't think it was that time.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: When you were in Gough Barracks

13 in October 1997, were you released at the end without

14 being charged?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Loughran, thank you very much for coming

17 along to give evidence before us.

18 Yes, Mr Donaldson?

19 MR DONALDSON: I wonder if I would be allowed --

20 Question from SIR ANTHONY BURDEN

21 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Just a moment.

22 Mr Loughran, can I just put this to you, that there

23 may be those who would suggest that because of the

24 circumstances of your arrest we, the Panel here today,

25 should not rely upon your evidence and that you have not

 

 

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1 told us the truth in relation to what you have said

2 about Rosemary Nelson. What would you say to those who

3 would doubt your honesty in this matter?

4 A. I'm getting nothing out of this, you know. What I've

5 said there is the truth and if I can't convince you

6 here, you know, it doesn't mean -- I can't say any more,

7 like.

8 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

10 Yes, Mr Donaldson?

11 MR DONALDSON: I would like just a few moments to speak to

12 Mr Savill, if I may.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly.

14 Mr Loughran, would you mind waiting a few minutes?

15 We are going to break off for about ten minutes and if

16 you just wait here and we will come back in. Thank you.

17 (3.11 pm)

18 (Short break)

19 (3.32 pm)

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?

21 Further questions from MR SAVILL

22 MR SAVILL: Mr Loughran, just one final matter to discuss

23 with you. I think it might be fair to say that, from

24 what you have told us already, you had more than

25 a passing acquaintance with the police around this time

 

 

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1 of your life.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You had been picked up, I think you told us, a lot and

4 spent a lot of time in Mrs Nelson's office.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was a good proportion of that time spend in her office

7 in relation to police matters, as opposed to, say, suing

8 your neighbour or something of that sort?

9 A. Yes, sir, I had a couple of, like, claims, you know, and

10 I used Rosemary as my solicitor.

11 Q. Yes. But you were picked up by the police on a large

12 number of occasions. Would that be fair?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As a result of that, let me just put this to you, if

15 I may, did that in any way produce in your mind

16 a hostility or grudge towards the police which may have

17 led you to say things that weren't true about what had

18 happened?

19 A. Well, I wouldn't say a grudge. At the time, you know,

20 myself and the police didn't see eye to eye, but

21 I wouldn't have went out of my way to say something like

22 that, you know, to try and blacken their name or

23 anything. You know, I think I would have thought of

24 something else to say, rather than the comments that

25 were made to me, if I was going to say anything.

 

 

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1 Q. Of course, we are talking about the comments

2 about Halloween and the broomstick, and so on and so

3 forth?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Yes.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Loughran, how old are you now?

7 A. Thirty-eight.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

9 MR SAVILL: Mr Loughran, thank you very much once again.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming to give evidence before

11 us.

12 We will break off for a quarter of an hour.

13 (3.30 pm)

14 (Short break)

15 (3.51 pm)

16 MR SHANE JOSEPH MCCRORY (sworn)

17 Questions by MR SAVILL

18 MR SAVILL: Please could you give us your full name?

19 A. Shane Joseph McCrory.

20 Q. Mr McCrory, I am going to ask you some questions but

21 before I do, you gave a statement, I believe, to this

22 Inquiry.

23 A. That I did.

24 Q. Could I have on the screen, RNI-813-034 (displayed) and

25 then RNI-813-039 (displayed). That was as long ago

 

 

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1 as August 2006 and that is your signature --

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. -- that we see before us.

4 Mr McCrory, I am afraid I would like to take you

5 back ten years or so. If at any point you really don't

6 remember anything, please don't guess, just tell me.

7 A. No problem.

8 Q. You were arrested in December, 15th December, in

9 a department store, I think, or a shop, called

10 Wellworths.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you just describe that for us? What in fact is

13 that?

14 A. Wellworths has been closed now for about ten years. It

15 was like a shopping place that you'd have gone in and

16 got your frozen food, pizza, bread, milk, et cetera.

17 Q. It sounds like the sort of shop we all use.

18 A. Aye.

19 Q. You were arrested on 15th December. Where is the store,

20 actually?

21 A. It's in Lurgan town centre.

22 Q. In the midst of a lot of other shops?

23 A. Yes, there is a load of shops all round it.

24 Q. You were in that shop for what reason?

25 A. I was going in to get a can of coke.

 

 

106

 

1 Q. I'm sorry?

2 A. I went in to buy myself a can of coke, I was thirsty

3 that night.

4 Q. You then latterly end up at the police station.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But tell us, when you are in the shop how do you get

7 involved with the police?

8 A. Yes, I had -- I walked into the shop and I was with --

9 yes, she is an ex-girlfriend now but she was my

10 girlfriend at the time, and I was on my way to buy a can

11 of coke and as I approached the coke I noticed some

12 policemen and they were coming towards me. As I can

13 recall, there was a warrant out on my arrest for

14 a non-payment of a fine. So they had stopped me and

15 said: listen, we have a warrant out, we want to take you

16 to the station.

17 Q. How many police officers approached you in the shop?

18 A. To be honest, I can't really remember but I think there

19 was three altogether.

20 Q. When they came up to you, I believe -- and I don't know

21 any names.

22 A. No problem.

23 Q. I believe that you recognised one of them --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- as p205

 

 

107

 

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. So you are in the shop, are you?

3 A. I was in the shop, yes.

4 Q. With three, you think, police officers.

5 A. I think there was three, and possibly two standing

6 outside the shop.

7 Q. And you were arrested.

8 A. I was, yes.

9 Q. You were then, I believe, taken to which police station?

10 A. Lurgan police station, by car.

11 Q. That car came to the shop, did it?

12 A. It did, yes. They had radioed in for it to come round

13 and pick me up.

14 Q. How long did you have to wait for that?

15 A. Two minutes, literally, because the police station and

16 that shop are about two hundred yards apart.

17 Q. I'm sure there are rules and regulations, but you are

18 saying, are you, that quite frankly it would have been

19 quicker to have walked you up there?

20 A. It would have been quicker to walk, aye.

21 Q. It is that close.

22 A. It's that close.

23 Q. Could we just look at RNI-216-121 (displayed) we can see

24 your custody record, your name, Lurgan police station,

25 offence for which arrested, place of arrest. On the

 

 

108

 

1 right we can see in the box that which supports what you

2 have just told me. You were arrested at 20.40 hours,

3 8.40 pm. You arrived 10 minutes later on

4 15th December 1997; yes?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. To be clear about this, you were at the shop with, you

7 think, three policemen and a police car turns up.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many police personnel were there in the police car?

10 A. To be honest, I'm not sure but I think there was only

11 one, I think there was one guy driving.

12 Q. Forgive my slowness in dealing with this --

13 A. No, that's fine, that's fine.

14 Q. That would then make at the shop four police officers.

15 A. Possibly six. If we can think back, I think there was

16 two that were standing outside the shop and there was

17 three that were actually inside the shop. I can't be

18 sure.

19 Q. I'm sorry, I thought you meant three in total. So now

20 we have, you think, three in the shop?

21 A. Two outside.

22 Q. Sorry, you think two outside?

23 A. Two outside, yes.

24 Q. Making five. Then the police car turns up with

25 a driver.

 

 

109

 

1 A. A driver.

2 Q. Makes six. Is that what you are saying?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When the police car arrived, where were you put --

5 A. I was put into the back seat.

6 Q. We have got the driver's side.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And we have got the passenger's side of the car.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you put into the driver's rear side or the

11 passenger's rear side?

12 A. I think it was the driver's rear side.

13 Q. Behind the driver's seat?

14 A. Behind the driver, yes.

15 Q. Can you remember who put you in there?

16 A. I think it was P205.

17 Q. This was the person that had arrested you physically in

18 the shop?

19 A. Yes, he sat in the passenger seat on the way to the

20 station.

21 Q. Forgive me for being bossy, I am just going to take you

22 through this.

23 A. Sorry. Dead on, I'm sorry, it's me getting ahead of

24 myself.

25 Q. So you are in the rear seat behind the driver.

 

 

110

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. P205, you think, puts you in. You have got possibly

3 five other officers at the scene.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How many officers in total accompany you in the car back

6 to the police station?

7 A. Three. The driver, the passenger and then the guy

8 sitting beside me in the back.

9 Q. Okay. Just dealing with that, you have said that you

10 think P205 sat in the passenger seat.

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. And you think -- can you look at your list or your

13 statement and say who was sitting next to you?

14 A. P218, he was the -- he drove the car, and I think P214

15 was sitting beside me.

16 Q. Right. So from being at the shop and driving away from

17 the shop, if I can put it this way, we lose possibly

18 three officers.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that --

21 A. They just walked back to the station.

22 Q. Is that right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Just be careful. Are you sure they walked back? Did

25 you see them later?

 

 

111

 

1 A. No, I never seen them again, but they could have

2 possibly walked back to the station.

3 Q. But they aren't in the car?

4 A. Not that I know of, no.

5 Q. When you are driving away from the Wellworths shop, what

6 is the atmosphere? If you will forgive me, you have not

7 been arrested for a violent crime, you have been

8 arrested on a warrant, you say. What was the atmosphere

9 between you and the police when you drove away from the

10 shop?

11 A. It was fine. I didn't put up any sort of struggle. I'd

12 got caught in the end. I was trying to dodge them for

13 a few weeks but they had caught up with me.

14 Q. So you went quietly, as they say.

15 A. I did indeed. I put up my hands -- what could I say,

16 like? I couldn't run. Everything was fine. I got into

17 the back of the car and they took me to the police

18 station.

19 Q. Was there any conversation from you when you were

20 driving back to the police station?

21 A. There was, yes.

22 Q. What did you say or ask?

23 A. I had asked for some representation.

24 Q. Sorry, what did you mean by that?

25 A. I just asked for my solicitor.

 

 

112

 

1 Q. Yes. Can you remember your precise words? Did you say

2 "I want a solicitor" or did you name someone?

3 A. No, I just says "I want a solicitor".

4 Q. Did there come a response from anyone in the car?

5 A. There did, yes.

6 Q. What was that?

7 A. I was told first of all not to ask for Rosemary.

8 Q. Now, this is a matter of interpretation, but let me ask

9 you: who do you believe they meant by "Rosemary"?

10 A. Rosemary Nelson.

11 Q. Who was it, in relation to positioning in the car,

12 because you have told us who was sat where, that said

13 that?

14 A. I think it was P -- that is what I'm saying, I'm not

15 entirely sure, I think it was P205.

16 Q. Just bear with me. Positioning in the car, think about

17 that, does that help you?

18 A. The front seat passenger.

19 Q. The front seat passenger?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you saying, whoever that was, that was who said it?

22 A. I think so. It definitely came from the front of the

23 car.

24 Q. So it was definitely from the front of the car. You

25 think the front seat passenger.

 

 

113

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And to the best of your recollection that was P205.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The words that were used again, please?

5 A. I think they were something like, "Don't be asking for

6 Rosemary".

7 Q. And your response?

8 A. Was "Why?"

9 Q. Was something said?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was that?

12 A. Somebody then from the front of the car said, "Because

13 she will be dead soon".

14 Q. Again, forgive me, we have got two people in the front

15 of the car. Perhaps to try and help you, the one in the

16 passenger seat had said, "Don't be asking for ..."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So was it the same person?

19 A. No, it came from the driver's side.

20 Q. It was the driver's side, whom you have said you believe

21 was P208, who finished this conversation, and again the

22 words that were used were what?

23 A. "She will be dead soon."

24 Q. Did you or anybody else react in any way to that?

25 A. No.

 

 

114

 

1 Q. What was your feeling --

2 A. Shocked.

3 Q. -- when that was said?

4 A. I was shocked and I was very surprised at what he said.

5 Q. But you didn't --

6 A. Didn't reply, no.

7 Q. -- say, "What on earth do you mean, what are you talking

8 about, why did you say that?" You didn't say anything?

9 A. No, I didn't say anything at all.

10 Q. Why not?

11 A. Because I was shocked, I was stunned.

12 Q. How clear are you, sitting here today, as I say, some

13 considerable time, that this was said in the car?

14 A. It was definitely said in the car, 100 per cent said in

15 the car. We had just passed the big church and we were

16 about to pull into Lurgan police station. We were

17 actually waiting on the -- they had like two big brown

18 gates and we had to wait on them to just open.

19 Q. The security --

20 A. Security gates. But it was definitely said in the car.

21 Q. If we could just call up RNI-813-036, paragraph 8,

22 please (displayed), and highlight it.

23 This is your statement, or part of it, to this

24 Inquiry. We will just look at this with you:

25 "When P205 approached me in the Wellworths store he

 

 

115

 

1 told me he had a warrant for my arrest."

2 He goes on to say what happened. You say:

3 "I can't now recall exactly where everyone sat in

4 the car but I think I sat in the back on the right-hand

5 side, with PC P214 sitting next to me. I think PC P218

6 was driving and P205 was in the passenger seat. On the

7 way to the police station I said I wanted

8 representation. Somebody, and I can't remember exactly

9 who but I think it was P218, who was driving, said,

10 'Don't be asking for Rosemary'. I asked why and

11 somebody else, I think it was P205, said, 'Because she

12 will be dead soon'. I don't remember P214 saying

13 anything. I didn't say anything else. I didn't know

14 what to say."

15 There is a slight discrepancy there.

16 A. Aye, as I said, I wasn't sure who said it, but it

17 definitely came from the front of the car.

18 Q. I wonder if we can call up, please, on the same page,

19 RNI-115-163 (displayed). Just excuse me a moment.

20 (Pause).

21 Without looking at the content of that, we have got

22 your name and an address, which we will see later, of

23 [address redacted] in Lurgan. This is dated

24 27th February 1998. Can you see that?

25 A. Yes. I can see it all right.

 

 

116

 

1 Q. It is not signed but it has got your name typed there;

2 yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you just explain to me, please, the circumstances

5 in which you came to give this statement?

6 A. I think on the night in question, on the 15th December,

7 I had used my phone call and I actually rang Rosemary

8 and she told me not to go into any great detail over the

9 phone about what was said, but for to wait and see her

10 at her office.

11 Q. Right. Just jumping ahead for a moment, you took her at

12 her word on that and you went to see her --

13 A. I did, yes.

14 Q. -- after --

15 A. After I had been released.

16 Q. We will come to that in a moment. Let's just look at

17 what you say here, because obviously this was made much

18 closer to the time than we are sitting here today. You

19 say:

20 "At about 9 pm I was in Wellworth store with my

21 girlfriend. Two policemen were in the store and two

22 were outside."

23 So again, you are not quite saying the same thing

24 now.

25 A. I'm not -- I'm not sure, it could have been.

 

 

117

 

1 Q. Could have been two, could have been two outside, could

2 have been four?

3 A. We are going back ten years, like.

4 Q. "One of the policemen in the store approached me and

5 said there was an outstanding bench warrant for my

6 arrest."

7 Then you say:

8 "He brought me back to the Lurgan Barracks, he put

9 me in the back of the police car, he sat in back beside

10 me."

11 Again, you have told us, I think, that the arresting

12 officer sat, you believe, in the passenger seat.

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. And there were three other policemen in the car. Again,

15 today you have told us that there were three in total in

16 the car.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Time has not been kind to your memory.

19 A. Definitely not. I can't remember what I did 20 minutes

20 ago, never mind ten years ago. There was definitely --

21 now I believe that there was three policemen in the car.

22 That's it.

23 Q. I will try and help you to take stock in a moment but

24 looking at this:

25 "He put me in the back, he sat in beside me, he said

 

 

118

 

1 to me ..."

2 This is the officer who had arrested you and sat in

3 the back next to you:

4 "... 'Nelson won't help you this time'."

5 A. Aye, I can see it there, aye.

6 Q. Again just a slight discrepancy, no mention of a request

7 by you for representation. It is, according to this

8 statement, as it were, out of the blue that the

9 arresting officer says "Nelson won't help you this

10 time":

11 "Another officer, who was driving the car and who

12 I know to be called ... said 'She won't be here that

13 long, she'll be dead'."

14 So again no mention of your "What do you mean?" or

15 "Why do you say that?" There is an immediate comment

16 that "She won't be here that long, she will be dead". A

17 slight difference; you have told us in your statement to

18 the Inquiry "She will be dead soon".

19 I just want to summarise, without being too picky

20 about it, these discrepancies. They are there for us to

21 see.

22 The statement on the right-hand side, as opposed to

23 the statement on the left, paragraph 8, was made much

24 nearer the time; yes?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

119

 

1 Q. You accept that? You sounded hesitant.

2 A. Sorry, no, no.

3 Q. But it was, wasn't it, made in 1998?

4 A. It was, yes.

5 Q. So is it not likely that the recollection or the account

6 in the statement on the right-hand side is accurate, or

7 more accurate compared to what you are telling us in

8 your statement and what you told us today, or do you

9 stand by what you told us today?

10 A. I stand by what I tell you.

11 Q. By?

12 A. I stand by what I tell you here today.

13 Q. So the statement on the right-hand side is inaccurate,

14 despite the fact it was made much nearer the time?

15 A. Yes, I would say that, yes.

16 Q. You also, in your statement on the right-hand side, do

17 not give the accuracy of naming of officers.

18 I appreciate they are ciphered, but you have a stab at

19 one that is blobbed:

20 "... I know to be called ..."

21 And I can tell you that that name in your statement

22 is similar to one of the officers.

23 A. I know what you are talking about.

24 Q. It is not the name.

25 A. It is not --

 

 

120

 

1 Q. That is why it is not ciphered. But what I am saying to

2 you, in your statement to the Inquiry, quite a long time

3 afterwards, you give the identities. So why were you

4 not able to give the identities of the officers in the

5 statement on the right-hand side?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Let me put it another way: did you know in February 1998

8 the names of those involved? Obviously not giving them

9 to me.

10 A. I did. I knew P205, and I wasn't too sure about P218

11 but I got to know him later on.

12 Q. Would you agree with me, and I'm trying to be fair, if

13 I said -- I don't mean this rudely -- that the statement

14 on the right-hand side isn't really much use?

15 A. No.

16 Q. It doesn't tell us --

17 A. The one on the left-hand side would be better.

18 Q. Quite. The one on the right doesn't really help us

19 apart from the remarks.

20 A. That is right.

21 Q. Is that fair?

22 A. That's fair enough, yes.

23 Q. Now, just --

24 THE CHAIRMAN: At the time, when you were in the car, you

25 had had dealings with 205 before, had you?

 

 

121

 

1 A. Yes, I had.

2 Q. You knew him?

3 A. Yes, I knew.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry to interrupt you.

5 MR SAVILL: Dealing with the way this statement came into

6 being, you have told us that you went to Mrs Nelson's

7 office.

8 A. That is correct, yes.

9 Q. When did you do that?

10 A. It says here "Dated this 27th day of February 1998", so

11 it must have been then.

12 Q. Was it? That's what I'm asking.

13 A. It would have been, aye, yes.

14 Q. It was done and dusted the same day?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How long was that after you were released that you went

17 round to do this?

18 A. I was arrested on the Monday night and I was held -- I

19 think I was held all week in prison. So -- and to try

20 and get an appointment with Rosemary was -- it was

21 almost impossible. So I think I had had to wait for, I

22 think it was two months.

23 Q. So you were released and had to book in to see her.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you make the call to see her when you were released

 

 

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1 or did you wait? How did that work?

2 A. I think I phoned and I made an appointment.

3 Q. And then, as it were, got on with your life until

4 27th February.

5 A. Until 27th February, when I made the statement, yes.

6 Q. Just can we highlight paragraph 14 of RNI-813-036

7 (displayed)? You say in your statement to the Inquiry:

8 "When I was released, I went straight to Rosemary's

9 office and she took a statement."

10 A. No, I have got mixed up there somewhere. I was held all

11 week and I don't think I went straight away, like.

12 Q. So having previously, as it were, favoured the statement

13 to the Inquiry as being more accurate, we are now in the

14 position --

15 A. No, it is more accurate to stay with what has been said,

16 but I don't know about this bit now. I don't think

17 I went straight to the office, like, but we are going

18 back over ten years, like.

19 Q. So you would say that what you have told us today is

20 accurate, that you had to book to see her, you waited

21 your time until 27th February, which was a couple of

22 months after you were released, and you went to see her.

23 Is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Now, as to the giving of this statement, had you

 

 

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1 yourself written anything down to stop the memory fading

2 or was the first time you said anything about this when

3 you went to see Mrs Nelson?

4 A. I don't know, I'm not entirely sure, to be honest with

5 you.

6 Q. But casting your mind back, do you have anything

7 approaching a mental picture of how this statement on

8 the right came into being?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So you couldn't help me with who wrote anything down,

11 who asked questions, who signed what, how it was typed,

12 anything like that?

13 A. No, not at the minute, no.

14 Q. So all you can say is that, looking at that document

15 dated 27th February, that must have been, on your view,

16 the day you were in the office?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you must have said what is in that statement, that

19 somebody typed up; yes?

20 A. Yes, somebody typed it up, yes.

21 Q. And all we have got is the typed Shane McCrory.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Obviously, I hope, Mr McCrory, there must have been

24 a purpose to you going and giving this information to

25 Mrs Nelson.

 

 

124

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was that purpose?

3 A. Well, what I thought at the time was that police

4 officers were making death threats against her.

5 I wouldn't like anybody making death threats against me.

6 Q. I am sorry, you are just going to have to repeat that

7 last sentence.

8 A. I wouldn't like anybody making any threats against me

9 and not coming and saying that this is happening.

10 Q. You would like to be told about it.

11 A. Oh, aye, obviously.

12 Q. Why would you like to be told about it?

13 A. Would you not want to know if somebody was making death

14 threats against you?

15 Q. Probably. Unfortunately for you, I'm asking you. Why

16 would you want to know?

17 A. Just in case something would happen. You could be hurt

18 or seek help.

19 Q. So -- just excuse me.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I will just move along.

21 MR SAVILL: You will forgive me, sir, is it the document

22 screen?

23 THE CHAIRMAN: It is the LiveNote. My LiveNote for some

24 reason has gone off. Somebody can come and do it, but

25 we will carry on.

 

 

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1 MR SAVILL: It may be that a button has been pressed. I

2 will just wait for one moment to see if that can be

3 sorted immediately. (Pause).

4 Sorry, Mr McCrory, just returning to this topic, you

5 have told us you would certainly want to know if someone

6 was saying this about you. So that is why you went to

7 see Mrs Nelson?

8 A. Certainly.

9 Q. I take it from this that you were not of the view that

10 this was a bit of larking about?

11 A. Obviously not. She had some threats made against her

12 life and at the end of it all she's dead.

13 Q. No, but I'm talking about at the time. You know, this

14 wasn't a joke by the police officers?

15 A. I didn't think it was a joke, no.

16 Q. You were very worried about it?

17 A. Yes, obviously I was.

18 Q. What did you do when you were in custody to tell anyone

19 in the police -- I'm not talking about your phone call,

20 which we will come to, but to tell anyone in the police,

21 to complain, to raise this and say, "Look, I'm stuck

22 here in custody, so and so has made this threat against

23 Rosemary Nelson"?

24 A. I don't think that I did anything that night but I'm

25 near sure that, once I was released, that I had got

 

 

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1 Rosemary to contact the ICPC --

2 Q. We will come --

3 A. -- on my behalf.

4 Q. We will come to this in due course, but I'm asking about

5 in custody, while you were detained, did you do

6 anything?

7 A. No, I don't think so.

8 Q. But you have told us that you rang Mrs Nelson from the

9 police station.

10 A. I did, yes.

11 Q. What did you say to her?

12 A. I had phoned her and -- I'm trying to think. What I

13 think I said was, "Rosemary, I have been arrested for

14 non-payment of a fine". I was actually looking for

15 Rosemary to come up to the police station but, because

16 it was a fine and I was being held overnight, there

17 would be no call and I had -- I think I had said to her

18 that there had been some kind of remarks made and she

19 says to me over the phone that I hadn't to go into too

20 much detail and that to tell her face-to-face whenever

21 I'd got out.

22 Q. While you were on the phone telling her this, was

23 anybody distracting you?

24 A. P205 was standing at the bottom end of the corridor and

25 he was shouting down.

 

 

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1 Q. What?

2 A. Yes. "Are you telling Rosemary what we've said about

3 her?" Something along the lines of that, "Are you

4 telling Rosemary what we have said?" or something like

5 that.

6 Q. Did you react to that in any way?

7 A. I don't think so, no.

8 Q. Would you agree with me that you had the opportunity to

9 say something while you were in custody but you chose

10 not to?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you were released, this was weighing on your mind?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were taking it seriously.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But if that is the case, just help me with this, why

17 were you content to wait for approximately two months to

18 go and see Mrs Nelson to tell her about this?

19 A. Because she told me to wait.

20 Q. Forgive me, it may be my understanding, I had understood

21 you to say that it was, as it were, beyond your control

22 because she was very busy that you couldn't get an

23 appointment.

24 A. Sorry?

25 Q. I am sorry?

 

 

128

 

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. What I'm trying to say, and please tell me --

3 A. I don't get you at all. I don't understand.

4 Q. That is my fault entirely. The scene as we understand

5 it: you are released from custody; death threats made

6 against Mrs Nelson; you are taking them seriously, you

7 are worried about them; you don't say anything over the

8 phone because she tells you not to.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. But when you do telephone her offices, you don't force,

11 as it were, in the nicest possible way, your way to the

12 front of the queue; you wait for two months for an

13 appointment to go and see her.

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. That is what I'm asking. Is that clearer?

16 A. It is clear but I think that I had told her about the

17 threats at a different time but I hadn't seen her

18 face-to-face, I think that I was speaking to her on the

19 phone and she says for to wait and come up and do that

20 all in the office, but I think she knew about it, like.

21 Q. Again, I am sure it is me not you: how did she know

22 about the content or did she not know about the content

23 of the threats?

24 A. She might have known about the content. I think that

25 I did actually say to her what had been said.

 

 

129

 

1 Q. When did you say that to her?

2 A. It might have been maybe a week after the date of the

3 arrest, but I hadn't seen her face-to-face.

4 Q. Right.

5 A. I am near sure that I was speaking to her on the phone.

6 Q. So you are saying that you spoke to her in the police

7 station, gave her a rough idea something had been said.

8 She said, "Don't say anything else". About a week after

9 your release, you speak to her on the phone.

10 A. Possibly.

11 Q. Possibly. But definitely about two months later your

12 slot comes up and you go in and the statement is given.

13 A. It says there it was the 27th day of February 1998.

14 Q. Before I move on from that -- and I hope you understand

15 where I am coming from when I just suggest this to

16 you -- do you not think there might have been a bit more

17 urgency, bearing in mind what you have told us, to make

18 Mrs Nelson aware of what had been said?

19 A. I'm not entirely sure. Even if you would have -- what

20 way can I put this now? Rosemary would have been the

21 type of woman, I would have said to her that night on

22 the phone that I was in the police station, and if I'd

23 have said, "Listen, there has been another death threat,

24 people have said something", she had just have went,

25 "What, another one?" She would have been used to it by

 

 

130

 

1 then.

2 Q. Just so I am clear, that was not something that was ever

3 said to you by her?

4 A. No, definitely not. It was never said, but I am only

5 saying I knew Rosemary, I knew her type. If I had said

6 that, she would probably have laughed and said, "Not

7 another one".

8 Q. Had you, either before or after this incident, discussed

9 with anybody else threats that were made to Mrs Nelson,

10 allegedly?

11 A. I might have said something to my mum, but I wouldn't

12 have spoke to anybody outside -- (Overtalking)

13 I wouldn't have talked to anyone in the street, like.

14 Q. Had you used Mrs Nelson before as a solicitor?

15 A. I'm not sure if that was the first time that I had used

16 her or it was the second time, but it possibly might

17 have been the second time I had used her.

18 Q. Could we just pull up page RNI-813-034 (displayed)?

19 Highlight the first paragraph, please. The second line:

20 "I don't remember when or how I first heard of

21 Rosemary Nelson. She was well-known. As far as I was

22 concerned, there were no other solicitors in the area

23 that had a clue. Rosemary had a strong head on her

24 shoulders and was the only solicitor who specialised in

25 criminal law. All the other solicitors did things like

 

 

131

 

1 conveyancing and would have just told you just to plead

2 guilty and you would have got six or seven months

3 inside."

4 That reflects your opinion of Mrs Nelson, does it?

5 A. Oh, 100 per cent.

6 Q. And you subsequent to this incident used her as

7 a solicitor.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also, I believe, gave a version of events, or spoke

10 about this on a Panorama programme.

11 A. I did, yes.

12 Q. Again, a long time ago, I am afraid.

13 A. You are not going to show it, are you?

14 Q. I'm afraid I am.

15 A. I have put on a lot of weight since then, about

16 six stone.

17 Q. If I can ask you to hold in your vanity.

18 A. Hold in my cheeks.

19 Q. Or indeed even your cheeks. We will see the clip, but

20 before we do, can you tell us how that came about?

21 A. Yes. I think a person called John Ware, I think he was

22 actually the broadcaster on the show.

23 Q. You are right, he was.

24 A. I think he got in contact with my mum. I wasn't there

25 that night that he had phoned, but he had rang and says

 

 

132

 

1 that they were interested in my side of the story and

2 blah, blah, blah, and would I be interested in being on

3 the show, and I just said yes. At the end of the day,

4 like, I wanted to get my point across.

5 Q. So what I want to ask you is it would be wrong, would

6 it, to use the word "persuasion" in the context of you

7 appearing on Panorama; you were asked and you accepted?

8 A. I did, yes.

9 Q. Is that a fair way of putting it?

10 A. Oh, yes.

11 Q. Could we just, I am afraid, play that clip?

12 A. Go ahead.

13 (Video clip played)

14 THE CHAIRMAN: How old are you now?

15 A. I'm 29. I'll be 30 in October. I was only 18 whenever

16 that was -- a very handsome chap, if I don't mind saying

17 so myself. Where have the years went?

18 MR SAVILL: Going back to the evidence, if I may, on that

19 transcript you say "Don't get her", but, as we have

20 already explored -- and I won't bring the documents

21 up -- a slightly different version, "Don't be asking for

22 Rosemary", in your statement to the Inquiry, or "Nelson

23 won't help you this time". Are you saying it was words

24 to that effect?

25 A. Something along the same lines, "Don't get her", "Don't

 

 

133

 

1 ask for Rosemary". It is all the same, like. I can't

2 remember what exactly was said but it was something

3 along the lines, "Don't get her," or "Don't ask for

4 her", or "Don't ask for Rosemary".

5 Q. Yes. You have been along to the office and given your

6 statement. You have appeared on Panorama or you do go

7 on to appear on Panorama. What did you think was going

8 to happen as a result of you giving this statement to

9 Mrs Nelson? Did you discuss it? Did you say, "What

10 happens next?"

11 A. No, I don't think I did. But I'm not sure what I was

12 expecting for to happen after it.

13 Q. Just before I move on to this, just going back to

14 Panorama, did you know who gave your name to John Ware?

15 A. I think Pat Finucane Centre or something like that.

16 Q. Had you had any dealings with them?

17 A. I might have been talking to somebody from there,

18 possibly. I think I was.

19 Q. So --

20 A. I think I was talking to a guy -- Barra McGrory,

21 Barry McGrory or something.

22 Q. It's my fault for just inserting that question there,

23 but going back to the question I was asking you, the

24 position as regards the complaints process, were you

25 happy, as it were, to do what it took to progress

 

 

134

 

1 a complaint? Did you know a complaint was going to be

2 made?

3 A. What do you mean?

4 Q. You have given this statement to Mrs Nelson.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did you think was going to be done with it? Did

7 you think that was the end of it?

8 A. No. I'm not sure, to be honest with you.

9 Q. You will forgive me for saying so, did you not ask?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. Did you consider your job done, as it were, once you had

12 given that statement?

13 A. What statement? The one --

14 Q. In the office that we have just --

15 A. In the office? No.

16 Q. Did you think you might be called upon to do something

17 further?

18 A. Yes, I think I was actually called again.

19 Q. I am going to come on to this. Did you know, therefore,

20 that Mrs Nelson actually did file a complaint on your

21 behalf?

22 A. I did, yes. I know that, yes.

23 Q. How did you know that?

24 A. I think she told me.

25 Q. Do you remember roughly when that was, where that was?

 

 

135

 

1 A. No. Possibly in her office.

2 Q. So you were aware that a complaint was being processed.

3 A. I think so, yes.

4 Q. Now, if we could just --

5 A. Er --

6 Q. I am sorry?

7 A. I'm trying to think back.

8 Q. While you are thinking, could we have RNI-216-016 on the

9 screen, please (displayed)? I do not have that on my

10 screen.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Nor do we.

12 MR SAVILL: RNI-216-016. Perhaps we could have a show of

13 hands of anybody that does have it. Yes, we do have it

14 now, I think. Could we not highlight it just at the

15 moment, not enlarge it. There we are, thank you. This

16 is a letter, I think, of 29th April, 1998.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you see that?

19 A. I see it, yes.

20 Q. That is a letter addressed to you at an address in

21 [address redacted] and you were living there at that time;

22 yes?

23 A. Still am.

24 Q. Still are. Put it another way, from that date until now

25 you have lived at that address?

 

 

136

 

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. There is a sentence that begins in the second paragraph:

3 "In due course Mrs Nelson's office will be contacted

4 with a view to arranging interview of yourself."

5 Can you read that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then if we can just look at the third line from the

8 bottom of the paragraph:

9 "It is important for the purpose of conducting

10 a meaningful investigation that all important evidence

11 is secured and to this end I would urge you to cooperate

12 with the Inquiry."

13 You have read that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember getting that letter?

16 A. I'm not sure. Possibly. I actually never got to open

17 my own mail when I was living at home. My mum usually

18 does that for me.

19 Q. Right. But was it not her practice to open your mail

20 and say, "Shane, there is a letter for you"?

21 A. It was, yes.

22 Q. What I'm saying is she didn't open your post and throw

23 it away?

24 A. No.

25 Q. No.

 

 

137

 

1 A. I think -- I possibly remember getting it. I can't be

2 100 per cent sure.

3 Q. Just excuse me. (Pause).

4 We can see from this letter, this is an attempt to

5 explain to you that it is important that you cooperate,

6 and that obviously the Independent Commission for Police

7 Complaints is involved. Yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But you don't recall seeing this. Do you recall seeing

10 any correspondence from anyone about your complaint?

11 A. Yes, I think I got a letter to attend Lurgan police

12 station. I think I actually met somebody from the ICPC.

13 Q. Let's just look through some of the documentation if we

14 can. RNI-216-016 (displayed). I am sorry, we have just

15 had that, do excuse me.

16 RNI-216-014 (displayed). That's a letter again from

17 the same people to Mrs Nelson and we can see at the

18 bottom it says in the last sentence:

19 "A copy of this letter has been forwarded for the

20 information of Shane McCrory."

21 Yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which we have just seen. RNI-216-221 (displayed). Now,

24 this is a letter to Mrs Nelson, not you, but -- and I

25 will show you in a moment over the page -- it is copied

 

 

138

 

1 to you and we have here in the third paragraph:

2 "In order that the investigation may be as complete as

3 possible, I wish to meet you and Mr McCrory solely to

4 discuss the complaint."

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "Such meetings are normal practice and any failure to

8 cooperate may frustrate the completion of such

9 investigations."

10 Then one paragraph down:

11 "Please arrange to be at Lisburn RUC station at 2 pm

12 on Friday, 29th May with Mr McCrory."

13 As far as I am aware there is no record of you

14 attending on that occasion. Do you remember seeing this

15 letter?

16 A. Possibly. It says:

17 "Please arrange to be at Lisburn RUC station ..."

18 What's the point of going to Lisburn when you live

19 in Lurgan?

20 Q. Some may say that is a fair point, but if you look in

21 the middle of the third paragraph from the bottom:

22 "If you consider Lisburn RUC station to be

23 unsuitable or inconvenient for whatever reason, you may

24 nominate any RUC station."

25 So you are given an option there. But what I'm

 

 

139

 

1 asking you is did you receive this? Did you attend?

2 A. I don't think that I went to Lisburn RUC station, no. I

3 think I got it rescheduled to Lurgan RUC station. I

4 think. I'm not 100 per cent sure now.

5 Q. Lets look at another letter, RNI-216-224 (displayed).

6 This is dated 29th May:

7 "Complaints against the police by Shane McCrory."

8 You can see it follows a very similar format to the

9 one we have just looked at. Then in that biggest

10 paragraph two thirds of the way down:

11 "Please arrange to be present at Lisburn RUC station

12 at 2 pm on Wednesday ..."

13 I can't quite read the date, 7th June 1998:

14 "... together with Mr McCrory."

15 If we turn over the page, RNI-216-224 (displayed),

16 as I promised I would, we can see at the bottom:

17 "Copy to complainant."

18 That was on the previous letter that we looked at.

19 I can if you want me to, but I don't propose to, show

20 you the proof of delivery of these letters.

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. Again, there is another attempt. Do you remember

23 receiving this letter or attending?

24 A. I don't think that I went down to Lisburn. No,

25 I definitely didn't go to Lisburn police station.

 

 

140

 

1 Q. Could we just look at RNI-216-230 (displayed)? We can

2 see again this is a fax to Mrs Nelson; yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It deals with the same date:

5 "I would be obliged if you could advise by return if

6 it is your intention to attend at Lurgan RUC station on

7 Wednesday, 17th June."

8 So we have got Lurgan now, not Lisburn. Do you

9 recollect discussing this with Mrs Nelson? Was she, as

10 it were, taking instructions from you, ringing you up,

11 say: will you come? Or can you not remember?

12 A. I don't remember, to be honest with you.

13 Q. If we look again at a new document, RNI-216-035

14 (displayed) -- there we are. Now, this is a little bit

15 small so I think we may need to just, please, highlight

16 the main text.

17 Similar format, five paragraphs up from the bottom:

18 "Please arrange to be present at Lurgan RUC station

19 at 1 pm on 15th July 1998, together with Mr McCrory. If

20 this time doesn't suit, please telephone me."

21 At the bottom of the page:

22 "I have also sent copy of this letter to your client

23 for his information."

24 So we are moving into June and there is, as it were,

25 a rolling attempt to try and fix up a meeting; yes?

 

 

141

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If we could just look at your witness statement to the

3 Inquiry, RNI-813-037 (displayed), paragraph 16:

4 "I have been told that Rosemary filed a complaint

5 based on what I told her had been said by the police

6 after I was arrested at the Wellworth store. I didn't

7 know anything about this and don't remember getting

8 a letter about a hearing or anything."

9 In summary, what I'm suggesting to you is that

10 despite the best efforts of the authority to see you,

11 they never did, and you say --

12 A. I think they did actually see me on 15th July, did they

13 not?

14 Q. You think that they did see you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could we just call up RNI-216-156 (displayed)? If we

17 look at the bottom of the page, this is from the file.

18 If we look at the bottom:

19 "Shane Joseph McCrory. Provided statement through

20 complainant. Invited to attend for interview but failed

21 to respond."

22 Yes?

23 A. Yes, it says that, aye. I can't remember.

24 Q. At the top of the page, I don't want it enlarged but you

25 can see there is a history of the letters that were sent

 

 

142

 

1 requesting responses from you. So what I'm suggesting

2 to you, Mr McCrory, is that you didn't attend and didn't

3 assist any further.

4 A. That's what it says in the paper.

5 Q. If that was the case, that you didn't attend, why didn't

6 you, as it were, having told us what you have and given

7 the assistance to Mrs Nelson that you did, follow

8 through with this complaint?

9 A. Sorry? What was the question again? Sorry.

10 Q. You cooperated to an extent to help Mrs Nelson by going

11 to see her, giving this account to her; yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You told us that you were aware that a process was

14 ongoing but it doesn't seem that you actually followed

15 it through to the point of giving a further account and

16 cooperating to that extent. What I'm asking you is why

17 was that?

18 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you, to be honest with

19 you.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: You have said earlier that you think you did

21 go to Lurgan police station.

22 A. Yes, I think I did actually go and meet.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Was that with Rosemary Nelson or after she

24 was murdered or what?

25 A. No, I think that one of Rosemary's secretaries actually

 

 

143

 

1 came with me. I'm not sure if Rosemary was available

2 that day or not, but I am nearly positive that I did

3 meet somebody about it.

4 MR SAVILL: We may have to leave it at that, as it were,

5 because I have put one side to you and you have given

6 your recollection as best you can.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you think you gave a statement when you

8 went with Rosemary Nelson's secretary?

9 A. I can remember something, like, but it might have been

10 a different matter altogether. But I definitely met

11 somebody from the ICPC in Lurgan police station. It

12 might have been -- it could have been a whole different

13 matter but I definitely met somebody from there.

14 MR SAVILL: Let us just deal with that. Were other

15 complaints in your name ongoing?

16 A. What do you mean?

17 Q. You say you definitely saw someone from the ICPC. You

18 think maybe it was to do with something else?

19 A. Yes, possibly it might have been to do with something

20 else.

21 Q. I am sorry, when you say "something else", do you mean

22 another complaint of yours or do you mean some other

23 matter that you tangentially were involved in?

24 A. Some other matter. It mightn't have been anything to do

25 with Rosemary but it might have been to do with a claim

 

 

144

 

1 or something that I had in against the police, something

2 like that.

3 Q. Let me ask you this: when you gave your statement to the

4 Inquiry, as you did on 30th August, two years ago, if

5 someone had said to you, sitting there and then, "So,

6 Mr McCrory, what actually happened to this complaint";

7 yes? You have told us, and we have seen, that you

8 didn't remember getting a letter about a hearing but

9 what I'm asking you is: what was your state of mind?

10 Did you think it had been resolved, it had gone away?

11 A. I don't know, to be honest with you. I couldn't tell

12 you.

13 Q. Now, moving on to just some final matters, if I can.

14 After your appearance on Panorama, I can't I am afraid

15 show you the document but you were written to by the

16 head of the murder investigation team, Mr Colin Port, at

17 the address we have seen, requesting that you contact

18 him in certain circumstances to try and assist in the

19 murder investigation. Do you remember receiving that

20 letter?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You don't. If we can call up paragraph 12, which is at

23 RNI-813-036 of your statement (displayed), the last part

24 of that, this is the business about you being on the

25 telephone at the police station and you say in the last

 

 

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1 sentence of paragraph 12:

2 "I think P205 had it in for Rosemary."

3 Are you saying that because of what went on while

4 you were on the phone or ...?

5 A. No, myself and P205 -- we have a lot of history

6 together. I was very young at the time and I was very

7 stupid, but he would have been one of the main -- one of

8 the main men back then.

9 Q. That you came into contact with?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But I'm asking you about Mrs Nelson. You say that you

12 think he had it in for Rosemary.

13 A. Yes, every time that I met him he was always on about

14 her, "What about Rosemary?" and what about this and what

15 about that.

16 Q. I am going to have to just be a bit persistent.

17 A. He was always talking about her.

18 Q. But in a nice way or a nasty way?

19 A. A nasty way, aye. Well, not all nasty. I'd have been

20 passing and he was all, "What about Rosemary today?"

21 "Have you seen her lately?" blah, blah, blah.

22 Q. It wasn't full-time insults, it was "Have you seen her?"

23 and --

24 A. Yes, I would call it a fascination with her.

25 Whatever -- he just didn't like her at all.

 

 

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1 Q. But did he make either abusive remarks or threats about

2 her on these other occasions?

3 A. No.

4 Q. If we can look at paragraph 11, please, which

5 unfortunately is just not on the highlight, you also

6 make a point of saying in the last sentence of

7 paragraph 11:

8 "From what I can remember, P218 had an awful

9 grievance with Rosemary."

10 A. I think that that was mixed up there. I think actually

11 P218 should be P205.

12 Q. Right. So it's the same person?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me just put this to you, if I may, finally,

15 Mr McCrory: it would seem -- and I understand what you

16 have said that you have a recollection of some degree of

17 cooperation possibly in relation to this matter -- but

18 it would seem on the face of it that you didn't

19 cooperate with this complaint process. That being the

20 case, might it be, if I were to put this to you, that in

21 fact you had another reason for saying that police

22 officers had threatened Rosemary Nelson, possibly to

23 undermine those officers, or indeed the Royal Ulster

24 Constabulary itself, by making unfounded accusations

25 against them concerning things that they hadn't said,

 

 

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1 what would you say about that?

2 A. Why would I tell lies?

3 Q. This is what I'm asking you.

4 A. Everything that I have said here today, it is the truth,

5 it is 100 per cent true. Why would I come and tell

6 lies?

7 Q. I have given you a possibility, that you wanted to

8 undermine the RUC. You said that you had a history with

9 P205. Might that have had anything to do with it?

10 A. No, absolutely not. He said the things. I'm only here

11 telling you what he had said.

12 Q. I am sorry, I missed the middle part of that.

13 A. He said the things. I'm only here for to try and tell

14 you what he had said. I've nothing to gain. I'm here

15 for Rosemary Nelson's -- for her family. At the end of

16 the day everybody wants a bit of justice.

17 Q. I did say "finally" but there is one very final matter

18 I just want to raise with you. The time after you had

19 been on Panorama, you were involved in an incident with

20 police officers where you say you were subjected to some

21 unpleasant treatment, if I can put it that way. That

22 was a bonfire night, I think.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you say that that had anything to do with you

25 appearing on Panorama?

 

 

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1 A. Absolutely, yes, 100 per cent.

2 Q. How is it possible for you to say that?

3 A. Because they were always picking on me. From the very

4 first night that that programme had been shown, I was

5 tortured by the police. I couldn't have walked up the

6 street. They were stopping me. There was actually one

7 time I was stopped up the town and it was raining very

8 heavily and they had asked me to take off my shoes. I

9 had refused and they were wanting to take me down to the

10 police station because I wouldn't take off my shoes in

11 the rain. And a passing woman actually stopped and she

12 gave off, she said it was a disgrace the way I was being

13 treated. And ever from it they have never left me

14 alone.

15 Q. Let us just be careful about this. You are saying that

16 after the Panorama programme, the police went out of

17 their way to --

18 A. Stepped up their harassment, I would say.

19 Q. -- cause you problems.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did they say to you, either on the occasion that I have

22 mentioned, the bonfire night, or any other occasion,

23 "Because you have been on Panorama, this is happening,"

24 or are you saying it was never said but that is what you

25 thought?

 

 

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1 A. It was never said but that is what I think. That is why

2 I think it happened.

3 Q. Right. And there was an occasion where you were -- I'm

4 not quite sure what the right expression is -- slightly

5 humiliated by being told to take your shoes of when it

6 was raining heavily; yes?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That was after Panorama, and so you took that to be part

9 and parcel --

10 A. Of the harassment.

11 Q. Is that right?

12 A. I think so, yes.

13 Q. Could we just see RNI-813-035 (displayed), paragraph 7,

14 you talk about PC205 and the second line you say:

15 "He had also stopped me on another occasion one

16 morning. I think it was some time in 1997. On that

17 occasion it was raining really heavily and he told me to

18 take off my shoes."

19 So in your statement to the Inquiry you have got

20 that way before --

21 A. Aye, the dates -- I'm getting mixed up with the dates.

22 But that there is all through, like, that he stopped me

23 and asked me to take off my shoes. He was looking for

24 transmitters and scanners.

25 Q. Just so I am clear, that is a mistake when you told us

 

 

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1 it was after the Panorama programme; it was actually

2 before it?

3 A. It was before it. I am getting my dates mixed up.

4 Q. Just tying up this increased harassment, including the

5 bonfire incident, what steps did you take to complain

6 about that?

7 A. None. There is no point, nobody listens. It is not

8 worth the time, it is not worth the effort.

9 Q. Finally, as we say to all the witnesses who appear

10 before the Inquiry, apart from thank you, is there

11 anything that you would like to add which we haven't

12 covered together this afternoon?

13 A. No, I don't think so. No. I'm happy enough, so I am.

14 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McCrory, you remember you were arrested in

16 Wellworths shop.

17 A. Yes.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: In December 1997. Earlier in 1997 you were

19 in Gough Barracks, weren't you?

20 A. I was, yes.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: For some three or four days, something like

22 that.

23 A. I think it was three days, possibly.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Three days. Did you have a solicitor?

25 A. I did, yes.

 

 

151

 

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Who was that?

2 A. It was Rosemary Nelson.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you interviewed?

4 A. I was, yes.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you answer any questions?

6 A. I think I may have -- I might have answered one

7 question.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: One question? Why didn't you answer the

9 others?

10 A. Because it wasn't a very nice experience and I didn't

11 really want to.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you given any advice by Rosemary Nelson

13 about answering questions?

14 A. Possibly. Possibly, yes.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Possibly. What was it?

16 A. Just not to answer --

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Not to answer --

18 A. -- any questions.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Was that before or after the two policemen

20 were murdered in Lurgan?

21 A. That was after the two policemen.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: After the two policemen.

23 A. Yes.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

25 Questions from SIR ANTHONY BURDEN

 

 

152

 

1 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: It is a related question, Mr McCrory.

2 The chairman has raised with you why you were there or

3 circumstances of --

4 A. Sorry, what was that?

5 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Can I just ask you this about whilst

6 you were in custody on that occasion? Was anything said

7 of a derogatory nature about Rosemary Nelson at that

8 time?

9 A. Not at all, no.

10 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Not at all?

11 A. No.

12 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: You heard me say this to Mr Loughran so

13 I will say it to you, though you have partly answered

14 it. There may be those who would suggest that because

15 of the circumstances of your arrest -- that is in

16 Wellworths -- that we, the Panel here today, should not

17 rely upon your evidence and that you have not told us

18 the truth in relation to what you have said about

19 Rosemary Nelson. What would you say to those who would

20 doubt your honesty in this matter?

21 A. Nothing. I am just here for to tell the truth and

22 I hope you accept it at the end of the day. As

23 Mr Loughran said, he has nothing to gain, neither

24 have I.

25 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Nothing to gain. Thank you very much.

 

 

153

 

1 A. I don't mind telling you why I was in Gough Barracks.

2 I've nothing to hide.

3 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: No, that is okay. Thank you very much.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McCrory, thank you very much for coming to

5 us to give your evidence.

6 A. No problem, at all.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

8 We will adjourn until 10.15 tomorrow morning.

9 You can leave now.

10 A. Thanks very much.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I want to just explain, tomorrow morning the

12 witness will be giving evidence anonymously and I want

13 to explain the procedure. Have we got the procedure

14 typed out?

15 THE CLERK OF THE COURT: I will just go and get it.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. The important thing to

17 remember is that the actual hearing chamber is reduced

18 in size and that means that people, once in the hearing

19 chamber itself, cannot leave or enter once the anonymous

20 witness comes in to give evidence, and the anonymous

21 witness has to come in and leave before anyone else

22 comes in or leaves, and that includes the Panel,

23 counsel, solicitors.

24 What will happen is I will go through a checklist

25 and say to Mr Currans, who is the Assistant Solicitor to

 

 

154

 

1 the Inquiry, "May we go through the checklist with you,

2 please, before the witness comes in?" That means

3 everybody has to be in place in the reduced hearing

4 chamber before the anonymous witness comes in.

5 The questions I ask, "Is the public area screen

6 fully in place, locked and the key secured?"

7 Second question is, "Are the fire doors on either

8 side of the screen closed?"

9 The third is, "Are the technical support screens in

10 place and securely fastened?"

11 The next question, "Is anyone other than the Inquiry

12 personnel and participants' legal representatives seated

13 in the body of this chamber?"

14 Then I say to [name deleted], who is behind the screen

15 over there -- and I think if you could put your hand up

16 so we can all see who he is -- I then say, "Can you

17 confirm please that the two witness cameras have been

18 switched off and shrouded?"

19 Then, "Have all the other cameras have been switched

20 off?"

21 Once I have got confirmation that all that has been

22 done, I then say, "Bring the witness in please."

23 The witness then comes through that door there and

24 then, when the witness is in position, the cameras on

25 the Panel, Inquiry personnel and the Full Participants'

 

 

155

 

1 legal representatives may now be switched back on.

2 I then announce that.

3 Then the witness is taken in the usual way and then,

4 when the witness leaves or before he leaves, I say,

5 "Mr Sabatino, again, before the witness leaves, would

6 you, please confirm that all the cameras have been

7 switched off?"

8 When that happens, the witness is then escorted out

9 before anyone moves. Then, when the witness has left

10 the hearing chamber, then the Panel and everybody else

11 can then leave. That will happen at every interval and,

12 of course, at the conclusion, when the witness's

13 evidence finishes. The intervals will be increased to

14 a quarter of an hour rather than ten minutes.

15 I hope everybody understands the procedure.

16 Right, we will adjourn until 10.15.

17 (5.05 pm)

18 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.15 am the following day)

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 


 

1 I N D E X

2
Submissions by MR DONALDSON ...................... 1
3
MR BARRY ANTHONY TOMAN (sworn) ................... 2
4
Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 2
5
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN .................. 58
6
Questions from DAME VALERIE STRACHAN ......... 59
7
Questions from SIR ANTHONY BURDEN ............ 60
8
Further questions from MR SAVILL ............. 61
9
MR BRIAN SAMUEL LOUGHRAN (sworn) ................. 63
10
Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 64
11
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN .................. 100
12
Question from SIR ANTHONY BURDEN ............. 101
13
Further questions from MR SAVILL ............. 102
14
MR SHANE JOSEPH MCCRORY (sworn) .................. 104
15
Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 104
16
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN .................. 150
17
Questions from SIR ANTHONY BURDEN ............ 151
18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25