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Full Hearings

Hearing: 16th June 2008, day 35

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ROSEMARY NELSON

PUBLIC INQUIRY

 

 

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held at:
The Interpoint Centre
20-24 York Street
Belfast BT15 1AQ


on Monday, 16th June 2008
commencing at 1.00 pm


Day 35

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

1 Monday, 16th June 2008

2 (1.00 pm)

3 (Proceedings delayed)

4 (1.19 pm)

5 MR GARY MARSHALL (affirmed)

6 Questions by MR SAVILL

7 MR SAVILL: Could you give us your full name, please.

8 A. My name is Gary Martin Marshall.

9 Q. Mr Marshall, I think it is right to say that you gave

10 a statement to this Inquiry. If we could just put up on

11 to the screen RNI-843-078 (displayed), we can see the

12 first page there. Then if we look at RNI-843-083

13 (displayed), I hope we can confirm with one another that

14 that is your signature?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And quite a recent date, 2nd April 2008?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr Marshall, I am going to explore with you

19 this afternoon some experiences you had whilst being

20 detained by the Royal Ulster Constabulary. This goes

21 back to 1997, which is obviously some time ago. So if

22 at any stage you don't remember what happened, please

23 don't guess, please let me know and we will try and work

24 through it using some of the documents; all right?

25 A. Yes, okay.

 

 

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1 Q. On 21st February 1997 you were in fact arrested, I think

2 that's right to say, isn't it?

3 A. That's correct, yes.

4 Q. If we could have on the screen, please, RNI-217-072

5 (displayed), we can see a document which is your custody

6 record and there are just one or two items on there to

7 look at.

8 On the left-hand side, the left-hand column we can

9 see "arrested at ..." and there are the times. Do you

10 see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then if we look on the right-hand side, we can see

13 "first name". There is a cipher there, but that is in

14 fact your name. And if we look further down the

15 right-hand column towards the bottom, we can see the

16 words "Rosemary Nelson" and in slightly smaller words,

17 the solicitor that you want. Yes?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. We can also see there that there were a number of

20 occasions that you refused to sign the record. We had

21 one just on the screen, but if you look on the

22 right-hand column, can you see three words "refused to

23 sign"?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. So, I'm afraid stating the obvious, you didn't sign it?

 

 

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why was that?

3 A. The reason I didn't sign was because I do not have any

4 trust in the RUC and I never signed anything that they

5 put in front of me.

6 Q. So you took a unilateral decision not to sign anything

7 that the police may, as you put it, put in front of you?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And we can also see there that at 16.05 you make

10 a request for Mrs Nelson?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Now, just exploring with you a little bit

13 Rosemary Nelson, obviously your knowledge may have

14 changed since 1997 but at that time, when you were

15 asking for her as a solicitor, why was it that you chose

16 Rosemary Nelson?

17 A. Well, Rosemary was my solicitor at the time. She had

18 been for some time before that, at that particular time.

19 Q. Right. And if we then obviously take it back a stage,

20 why had she become your solicitor initially?

21 A. Well, I was going to --

22 Q. By that I mean why had you chosen her?

23 A. Well, the main reason was because she was a good

24 solicitor and I had heard from various other people that

25 she had been very good.

 

 

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1 Q. And when say that you had instructed her as your

2 solicitor, at this time, 1997, when you are arrested

3 in February, how many times, roughly, had you called

4 upon her to look after you?

5 A. I would say it might be ten times beforehand.

6 Q. I don't necessarily want the details, but putting them

7 into categories, are you able to help me with the type

8 of problems these were: criminal problems, civil

9 problems, family problems? What were they?

10 A. One of them was -- I was going through a bad time with

11 my marriage and I needed a legal representative, and

12 then there were other times that I was actually arrested

13 and I used Rosemary as well.

14 Q. Would you say a 50/50 split, therefore, between family

15 and criminal work?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That's fair enough, is it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could we put up on to the same screen, please,

20 RNI-843-078. Could we highlight, please, the second

21 paragraph (displayed). We can perhaps see a little bit

22 more detail of what you have just told me. You had used

23 her several times before:

24 "I had at one stage used another local solicitor in

25 Lurgan, but I had had a few friends who had used

 

 

5

 

1 Rosemary and they told me she was very good. Everyone

2 respected Rosemary and she stuck up for you and helped

3 you the best that she could. This is why I always used

4 Rosemary whenever I needed legal advice."

5 Do you stand by those comments today?

6 A. That's correct, yes.

7 Q. Was there any reaction from the police officers when you

8 requested Mrs Nelson?

9 A. I would always ask the policeman that was on the -- he

10 was like a gaoler or something -- I would always ask him

11 and he would just say, "I will get in contact with your

12 solicitor", that was all, like.

13 Q. Right. Straightforward?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. We are going to come in due course to what you say went

16 on whilst you were being detained, but before I do, we

17 can see on the left-hand side of the screen, the custody

18 record, halfway down, left-hand side, "station or

19 branch: Lurgan".

20 Where were you taken to first of all, and did you

21 stay there or were you taken somewhere else?

22 A. When I was arrested I was took to Lurgan -- just to the

23 entrance of Lurgan police station and then I was taken

24 to Castlereagh holding centre.

25 Q. Yes. Now, we are going to come to them in due course,

 

 

6

 

1 but just so, to help you, we have them in our minds, you

2 have given a number of different statements in relation

3 to what went on. So just to try and get this in your

4 mind before we start.

5 We can see then -- and I don't want them on the

6 screen at the moment, thank you -- we have your

7 statement to this Inquiry. There was also a typed

8 statement that you gave after you had been released and

9 then there was a statement that you gave to the

10 Pat Finucane Centre; yes?

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. So we have a total of three. Now, could we put on to

13 the left-hand side, please, the page RNI-843-085

14 (displayed). I hope you will be relieved to hear I am

15 not going to read it out to you. We can see there

16 a number of entries in the custody record and we can see

17 a number of ciphered names with "P" and then a number

18 after them. These all signify interviews and officers

19 that interviewed you whilst you were being detained. Do

20 you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So we have P117, P149, P156 and P170.

23 Just very briefly, please, Mr Marshall, could you

24 just help us with the routine and what happened when you

25 started your detention at Castlereagh. You were

 

 

7

 

1 interviewed?

2 A. That's correct, yes.

3 Q. And are you able to say roughly how many times that was?

4 A. In one day, I think I was interviewed maybe six times.

5 Q. And who interviewed you. I don't know the names, but

6 ...?

7 A. There would have been two detectives at a time.

8 Q. So, in pairs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did they alternate?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Or did they do consecutive interviews?

13 A. No, there would have been two for maybe an hour and

14 a half and then I would have had a break and then

15 another two, and then maybe the two previous would have

16 came after that again.

17 Q. Yes. You were detained for a number of days, were you

18 not?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And I will stand corrected, but in my calculation you

21 were interviewed 31 times. Does that sound about right?

22 A. I haven't a clue.

23 Q. As I say, I will stand corrected but I have tried to add

24 it up as best I can.

25 You were in fact released eventually, I think I am

 

 

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1 right in saying, on Friday, 27th February; so six days

2 after you were arrested. Does that sound about right to

3 you?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Could we just have a look, please, at the document on

6 the right-hand side, page RNI-843-079, paragraph 4

7 (displayed). RNI-843-079. Sorry, that's not able to

8 come up?

9 MR [name redacted]: No, we don't have it there.

10 MR SAVILL: Right. Could you tell me whether you have

11 RNI-843-080?

12 MR [name redacted]: No.

13 MR SAVILL: This could prove to be a problem, sir.

14 Obviously I am going to be looking at various pages of

15 this witness's statement to the Inquiry. We have

16 managed to get the first page up. Just excuse me for

17 a moment. (Pause)

18 Just at random, could I ask for RNI-843-072? So we

19 have the first and the last pages but nothing in

20 between.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: How long is it likely to take to get this

22 moving? Five minutes?

23 MR SAVILL: I am just thinking whilst I am standing here

24 whether we actually need this. I am afraid I think we

25 do. I am afraid, as you can see, I do not have any idea

 

 

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1 why the missing pages are not coming up --

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Marshall, we are going to have a short

3 break. We have lost contact with your statement for the

4 moment. We will have a break for a few minutes and get

5 that put right.

6 (1.31 pm)

7 (Short break)

8 (1.44 pm)

9 MR SAVILL: Sir, thank you for the time.

10 Mr Marshall, I am sorry about that because I expect

11 you were just probably beginning to get used the way

12 things were going in here before we had to rise.

13 Let me just ask, please, if we could have two

14 documents up on the screen: On the left-hand side,

15 RNI-217-076 (displayed), and on the right-hand side

16 RNI-843-079 (displayed). Thank you.

17 I was just asking you about paragraph 4 of that

18 document on the right. If we could just highlight it

19 please:

20 "Whilst I have a recollection of being arrested in

21 relation to the murder of [blank] on a Saturday, which I

22 understand was 21st February, and I remember getting

23 released on the 27th, I have very little recollection in

24 relation to the interviews that took place and what

25 happened. I am clear that Rosemary Nelson's life was

 

 

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1 threatened through me and that comments about her face

2 were made to her, but I cannot now, some ten years on,

3 remember the detail of what was said or the wording that

4 was used."

5 I just thought in fairness to you we would put that

6 up now before we get into some detail, because this is

7 your statement to the Inquiry and here you are issuing

8 a bit of a warning about your memory. Would that be

9 fair?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. What I am going to do is just take you through some of

12 the entries in the custody record just to set the scene.

13 So, on the left-hand side, if we look at the entry

14 just over halfway down the page at 18.11, we can see

15 a legal visit with Mr Vernon, solicitor; yes?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. That goes on -- there's no need to highlight it -- until

18 19.11, when the legal visit ends; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If we then turn the page, please, to RNI-217-077

21 (displayed), and we look at 09.10, the last entry on the

22 page -- could we highlight that, please? This is

23 a review, and you are asked a question and you replied:

24 "No, I would like to request to see the solicitor."

25 If we turn over the page again, to RNI-217-078

 

 

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1 (displayed), we can see at 10.17, I think -- it is the

2 middle of the page-ish, if we could enlarge that -- you

3 can see it is on the 22nd:

4 "Inform prisoner unable to contact sol requested and

5 if he wished to change. Prisoner requested that [I

6 think it is] we keep trying."

7 So you are being told that your solicitor of choice

8 isn't available, but you wanted to push on and see that

9 solicitor; is that right?

10 A. It must be correct.

11 Q. Yes. And again, if we could, please, look at the entry

12 over the page, I think, at RNI-217-079 (displayed), we

13 can see that there is at 14.52:

14 "Interview ended, legal visit, Mr Vernon."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On the screen? If we can go to the entry at the bottom

18 of the page, 16.50. Again, this is a review, and the

19 third line:

20 "I asked him if he had anything to say and any

21 representation to make to me regarding the same. He

22 supplied 'no'. This is about your grounds of arrest and

23 detention."

24 Now, in your statement that we will come to in due

25 course, made shortly after your arrest, you say that:

 

 

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1 "The interviewing officers said they were going by

2 the book ..."

3 In your case because they had "got you anyway".

4 Those were their words. Do you remember saying that in

5 your statement. I can show it to you if you would like

6 to see it?

7 A. I made that statement shortly after my release. So I

8 think that I would be more, you know -- that I could

9 remember and be more up-to-date.

10 Q. Certainly, I think we would all expect you to say that,

11 but I am just asking you if you can remember that

12 particular point that the officers said they were going

13 by the book because they had got you anyway?

14 A. At this moment in time I cannot remember.

15 Q. No. We may come to it in due course.

16 We have reached Sunday afternoon. Nothing had been

17 said about Mrs Nelson at this stage; is that right?

18 A. I can't honestly remember.

19 Q. We will come to the statement you have given, which

20 hopefully will help you, but before we do, just moving

21 on to Monday, RNI-217-082, so it is turning the page

22 a few times, I think (displayed). We can see at 11.43,

23 middle of the page, you request a legal visit. Can you

24 see that?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

13

 

1 Q. And then if we look at 13.15 -- thank you -- we can see:

2 "Legal visit: R Nelson, solicitor."

3 Yes?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And then at RNI-217-084 (displayed) at the entry 13.04,

6 down at the bottom of the page:

7 "Interviewed the above in his cell. He had no

8 complaint."

9 So we are moving into Tuesday here. So you remember

10 being seen in your cell on occasions by police officers

11 and asked that sort of question?

12 A. No, I can't remember.

13 Q. You can't remember. If we turn the page to RNI-217-085

14 (displayed), 21.50:

15 "The interview ends as prisoner requested legal

16 visit."

17 If we then turn the page to RNI-217-086

18 (displayed) -- 22.53, I think it is, about the third

19 entry. We can see there just about, I think:

20 "Legal visit, Mr Vernon."

21 So that is a few minutes before 11 o'clock at night.

22 So we now come to Tuesday evening. Can you

23 recollect whether any comments had been made about

24 Mrs Nelson at this stage?

25 A. No, I can't.

 

 

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1 Q. No. Do you remember, before we move on, the issue of

2 a statement concerning your whereabouts in relation to

3 the crime you were accused of, an alibi statement

4 essentially, setting out where you had been and what you

5 had been doing? Do you remember that arising during

6 your interview?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. What can you tell us about that?

9 A. Well, at one of the times whenever Rosemary -- I think

10 it was Rosemary or Pat came down to visit me and she

11 asked me to make a statement to herself.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. On my whereabouts. So I made one and Rosemary wrote

14 down everything that I told her, and she says she will

15 bring it back to her office and get it done out on

16 a typewriter.

17 Q. Yes. If we could just go back on the left-hand side to

18 RNI-217-082 (displayed), there is a visit I think we

19 have already looked at, at 13.15; yes? If we can call up

20 your statement on the right-hand side at RNI-115-152

21 (displayed) and if we could highlight the last

22 paragraph, please, and I will read that to you. You can

23 obviously see it. This is Monday:

24 "I asked for my solicitor and Rosemary came between

25 12 and 1 pm. I gave a statement to Rosemary as well

 

 

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1 about my movements on the day in question. She said

2 there was no need to give it to the RUC unless they

3 served me with a written caution.

4 "Before Rosemary had arrived, they said that they

5 were applying for an extension, and after she had left,

6 they said they had got it."

7 So this is the statement you have told us was given

8 much nearer the time and seems to suggest that it was at

9 this visit that you told Mrs Nelson the details that

10 were put into the statement?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Just so we understand it, how did that process actually

13 take place? By that, I mean you were in a room with

14 Mrs Nelson. Did you speak and she write, or did she

15 interrupt? Did she ask you questions? How did it take

16 place?

17 A. I spoke and she wrote. Plus she asked me some questions

18 as well.

19 Q. Can you remember the type of questions that they were?

20 A. Just on my whereabouts, where I was.

21 Q. And she was writing this down, with a pen presumably?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what happened once the process had finished? Were

24 you shown the statement?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

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1 Q. And did she ask you to do anything with it?

2 A. No, she took it with her.

3 Q. But when she showed it to you, why did she show it to

4 you?

5 A. Just to make sure that it was everything I'd said.

6 Q. So you read it through?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And once you had read it through, she, as it were, was

9 free to leave and the understanding was it would be

10 typed up?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. If we can move, please, into Wednesday, the 25th, by

13 going to page RNI-217-087 (displayed), and we can see, I

14 think, that at 12.34, top of the page:

15 "Solicitor, Mrs Nelson ..."

16 So you have a visit with Mrs Nelson at that stage,

17 which doesn't last all that long, 13.36. Do you see

18 that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we turn the page to RNI-217-088, at 21.57 we have:

21 "Solicitor's visit ..."

22 And that is Mr Vernon. He comes to see you just

23 about 10 o'clock on Wednesday evening.

24 Now, using the document on the right of the screen,

25 could we, please, turn the page to RNI-115-153

 

 

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1 (displayed)? Could we highlight the paragraph marked

2 "Wednesday"? Thank you:

3 "They continued to question me about the murder of

4 [blank]. They said that the fibres came from his shirt.

5 I asked for Rosemary and she came up, but there was

6 still no sign of a written caution. Then on Wednesday

7 evening they served [I think it should be] me with

8 a written caution. I asked to see my solicitor and

9 Paddy came with a copy of the statement I had given

10 typed out."

11 Just pausing there, Paddy presumably is

12 Patrick Vernon?

13 A. Patrick Vernon, yes.

14 Q. "After he had left, I was taken back to my cell and then

15 taken for interview. I think this was after 10 pm.

16 They started questioning me about the caution and I gave

17 them the statement. One of them started to laugh and

18 said he didn't know I had a typewriter in my cell. Then

19 they asked me in detail about the statement and I didn't

20 reply."

21 So does that jog your memory at all as to the

22 sequence of events?

23 A. No.

24 Q. It doesn't? But you are prepared to accept, as you have

25 said, that this was a statement given nearer the time

 

 

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1 and was your accurate reflection then?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Could we go to the left-hand document, please,

4 RNI-217-090 (displayed). We can see there at 13.33:

5 "Interviewed prisoner re allegations he wishes to

6 make. Written statement declined. Verbal comment

7 noted. [Blank] informed, who directed no further

8 immediate action required."

9 So it would seem that you are making some kind of

10 allegation, some kind of complaint on this occasion. Do

11 you see that there at 13.33?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On Thursday, 26th February.

14 Just pausing there, we have seen from your statement

15 on the right-hand side what has happened in relation to

16 the statement. If I could also now ask that on the

17 right-hand side we have RNI-217-048 (displayed), we can

18 see a statement here from a sergeant in the Royal Ulster

19 Constabulary, dated 26th February 1998:

20 "I am a sergeant in the Royal Ulster Constabulary at

21 present attached to the police office, Castlereagh,

22 Belfast. On Thursday, 26th February 1998, I was the

23 early duty sergeant. At 13.35 hours ..."

24 I think we have to concede that that is two minutes

25 adrift:

 

 

19

 

1 " ... I spoke to [you, Mr Marshall] re allegations

2 he wished to make. I invited him to make a written

3 statement but he declined my offer. He made the

4 following verbal statement:

5 "'During the first interview this morning, the

6 detectives were writing down questions but not asking me

7 them. They also said that my solicitor was giving me

8 the wrong advice.'

9 "He had nothing further to add. I handed him

10 a complaints leaflet and explained their contents to

11 him. I informed Inspector [blank] of the complaint. He

12 directed no further immediate action was necessary."

13 Do you recall this sergeant coming to see you in

14 your cell?

15 A. No, I can't remember.

16 Q. Do you recall making the allegations or the complaint

17 that he says that you did? Does that look familiar to

18 you?

19 A. I can remember making complaints but I can't remember

20 what they actually were.

21 Q. So this is, if you will forgive me, a slightly curious

22 complaint:

23 "The detectives were writing down questions but not

24 asking them ..."

25 Of you. Does that ring any bells with you now?

 

 

20

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. We don't have to go to it, but the officers -- the first

3 interview that morning would have been at 9.52, P117 and

4 P149. Do you remember things being said about

5 a solicitor giving you the wrong advice?

6 A. At this moment in time I can't remember, but as I say,

7 that statement that I made a few days afterwards would

8 be correct on what I said.

9 Q. Well, what I was going to ask you about is that there is

10 no mention in that statement that you made nearer the

11 time of the things that you are saying to the police

12 sergeant on the right-hand side of the screen. Do you

13 follow me with that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This is the only place, as far as I am aware, that it is

16 mentioned in the terms that it is on the right-hand

17 side. Can you explain why that is?

18 A. Can you explain that again?

19 Q. On the right-hand side you have got this, as I say,

20 rather curious allegation about writing down questions

21 but not asking them, something about a solicitor giving

22 you the wrong advice; yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You have referred me to your statement that we have been

25 looking at made nearer the time, and what I am saying to

 

 

21

 

1 you is these allegations made to the sergeant that he

2 records aren't in your statement made nearer the time.

3 A. I definitely did make complaints, but as I said, I can't

4 remember what they were.

5 Q. But what I am suggesting to you is it is not likely, is

6 it -- I don't know -- that the sergeant on the

7 right-hand side of the screen is writing down the wrong

8 things, is it? Or can you not remember?

9 A. I can't remember, but the sergeant could write what he

10 wrote down.

11 Q. But you have no recollection of it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And if we could just call up on the right-hand side of

14 the screen, RNI-843-079 (displayed), paragraph 5, we can

15 see what you said there:

16 "I have been told by those interviewing me, the

17 custody records and my arrest records that at 13.33 on

18 26th February, I was invited to make a written statement

19 in relation to complaints which I was making, but

20 I declined to do so. I cannot now remember anything

21 about this. I cannot remember asking for the duty

22 sergeant and I cannot remember specifically why I was

23 only prepared to make a verbal complaint rather than

24 a written one."

25 Yes?

 

 

22

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Later that day, I think it is right to say that you

3 requested Mrs Nelson's attendance. Could we have on the

4 left -- oh, we have got it -- an entry at 18.26, third

5 one up, I think, from the bottom. You requested to

6 speak to Mrs Nelson. Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If we turn over one page to RNI-843-080, we have got

9 a welfare review at 19.05:

10 "Welfare review."

11 Spoke to you:

12 "I informed him I was here to talk to him about his

13 welfare. I asked him if there was anything he wished to

14 say, anything to me, regarding the conditions of his

15 detention. He replied no."

16 That was a police officer asking that, but would you

17 agree with me that that was an opportunity to perhaps

18 make known any inappropriate comments that had been made

19 to you?

20 A. I can't remember that either.

21 Q. Do you agree with me that on the face of it, it is

22 a welfare visit; somebody is saying is there anything

23 you want to say about the conditions of your detention?

24 A. If it was a police officer that came in to ask me that

25 there, I wouldn't have spoke to him anyway.

 

 

23

 

1 Q. You wouldn't have?

2 A. Spoke to him.

3 Q. You do speak to him, because you say "no". Is what you

4 are saying: you wouldn't have said anything other than

5 "no"?

6 A. That is all of what I said.

7 Q. So as a matter of conduct on your part, you are saying

8 that if a Royal Ulster Constabulary officer came in to

9 your cell and said, "Is everything all right? Do you

10 want to make a complaint?" you would just say "no"?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And that's for the reasons you have already told us, is

13 it, that you didn't trust and don't trust the police?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Could we call up on to the screen, please, RNI-115-153

16 on the right-hand side (displayed). We have the

17 statement that you made nearer the time. Can you see

18 that on the screen?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in that statement, if we look at Thursday, please,

21 we can see that you say:

22 "There was detailed questioning about the statement

23 on Thursday morning. I asked to see Rosemary and she

24 came down at lunchtime. After she left, they told me

25 that they knew where I worked and that some day I could

 

 

24

 

1 be set up by the LVF. They said that 'Swinger' Fulton

2 and [blank] would get me. They then told me that they

3 had got another extension for two days."

4 It would seem then, Mr Marshall -- and again, you

5 will forgive me, I am going by what you have said to

6 me -- you don't remember this, but in your statement

7 made nearer the time you made the suggestion that

8 threats essentially had been made against you

9 personally?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Is it right that you don't remember this now, you are

12 just going from the statement?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Because you say, I think, that:

15 "I asked to see Rosemary and she came up at

16 lunchtime."

17 Can you see that on the screen: she came down at

18 lunchtime?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if we go back to the previous page, RNI-217-089

21 (displayed). It starts there, bottom, 13.26:

22 "Legal visit ends."

23 Yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So if we turn over the page to RNI-217-090 (displayed),

 

 

25

 

1 we can see that you are interviewed in the middle of

2 that page, P149 and P117 at 14.22. Can you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What I just want to suggest to you is that later on, as

5 we have seen, you are given a welfare visit. You have

6 told us that you, as habit, would say no to anything

7 that was put to you, but at this stage it looks like

8 threats were being made against your own safety but you

9 didn't see fit to raise that; is that right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Why was that?

12 A. As I said before, I don't trust the RUC and there was no

13 sense in talking to them.

14 Q. Can we look at RNI-217-091, please (displayed). That

15 evening, I think, at 21.00 hours, the middle of the

16 page, you have a legal visit from Mr Vernon. Can you

17 see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And no need to highlight it, I don't think, but just

20 beneath the highlighted box you can see at 22.00 hours

21 you request to speak to the duty inspector re complaint.

22 Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. And then if we could just highlight 22.02, please

25 (displayed):

 

 

26

 

1 "Spoke to [you, Mr Marshall] who informed me he

2 wished to complain that the detectives had interviewed

3 him beyond 11 pm on 25th February 1998. I explained

4 that the detectives could interview up until midnight."

5 He then goes on to ask you if you still wish to make

6 a complaint, and you replied, "No, it's okay." Do you

7 see that?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. So taking stock at this point, this is the evening after

10 you say threats are made against your personal safety.

11 You have told us today that as a matter of course you

12 would not, as it were, cooperate; you would say no to

13 any enquiries about your welfare. And yet here we have,

14 late evening, 10 o'clock, you wanting to make

15 a complaint about what, if you will forgive me for

16 saying so, is relatively speaking a minor matter?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. You may not have felt that at the time but you see my

19 point?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It is being interviewed as opposed to threats against

22 you. Can you, please, help me with why it is that you

23 decide to make a complaint about what seems to be

24 a relatively small matter and don't mention the more

25 serious point?

 

 

27

 

1 A. Whenever I was talking to my solicitor beforehand, he

2 must have told me to make the complaint. At this moment

3 in time, I have no recollection of what happened.

4 Q. So are you saying, just so I am clear, that it is

5 possible or probable that you didn't mention to him the

6 threats made to yourself, but you did say, "Oh, by the

7 way, they interviewed me beyond 11 o'clock"? Is that

8 what you are saying?

9 A. I may have said to the solicitor about the threats but I

10 can't remember at this moment in time.

11 Q. But you would agree with me that from the documents at

12 least, it seems that you don't complain about the

13 threats but you do explain about the lateness of the

14 hour at which you were interviewed?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Could we, please, look at RNI-217-092 (displayed). We

17 are moving into Friday morning, Friday, 27th February.

18 We can see there is a lot of goings on, as it were,

19 overnight in the small hours, and then we come down

20 towards the bottom of the page to the entry at 09.20,

21 and that appears to be the first interview of the day.

22 Do you have that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As I have said, this is Friday morning and if we can

25 look and highlight Friday, please, in the statement on

 

 

28

 

1 the right-hand side of the screen, we can see four lines

2 down towards the end of it, a sentence beginning:

3 "In the first interview on the Friday morning, they

4 said that the IRA had given her the statement which I

5 had given them. They said the IRA were pulling her

6 strings. They also said there was a new law passed in

7 1989 which meant they could do away with solicitors who

8 concocted stories."

9 Can you just read that to yourself?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember that being said, before I ask you

12 about it?

13 A. I can't remember ten years on now, but obviously it must

14 have been said if that statement was made a few days

15 after my release.

16 Q. And if we could, please, go over the page to RNI-115-154

17 (displayed), and we highlight that top paragraph, we can

18 see there, placing it in context:

19 "There was then another interview after lunchtime.

20 It was the same two detectives, and the tall one said to

21 me that he heard I had been making complaints. He said

22 that this has been going on for 30 years and it was not

23 going to change now. He said to tell half-face that.

24 They said I made the statement and Rosemary got the

25 witnesses and told them what to say."

 

 

29

 

1 Can you read that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So we have a morning, as it were, and an afternoon

4 complaint, don't we?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. If we move on just slightly, can I just ask you: are you

7 able to give us any contemporaneous reaction to these

8 comments? You say you can't remember them being made.

9 Can you tell us anything about the situation, the

10 circumstances, the atmosphere, your reaction, anything

11 of that nature?

12 A. No.

13 Q. If we keep in our minds that we have comments made

14 before and after lunch on the Friday, and we look at

15 RNI-217-092 at 11 am -- if we highlight that, please,

16 11 am, the entry:

17 "Request legal visit."

18 It is probably my fault. I just want the document

19 on the left-hand side of the screen kept there,

20 highlighting the entry at 11 o'clock, and on the

21 right-hand side of the screen should be RNI-115-154

22 (displayed). We can see at 11 o'clock that you request

23 a legal visit. Can you see that?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And at 12.27, at the bottom of that page -- it is quite

 

 

30

 

1 faint -- there is a legal visit, consultation with

2 Mrs Nelson, solicitor. And if we turn over the page to

3 RNI-115-155 (displayed), we can see that that ends at, I

4 think it is, 13.26. Can you see that? Top of the page?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So what I am saying to you is that there is a complaint

7 in the morning, there is a complaint in the afternoon --

8 I am sorry, allegations you make of comments in the

9 morning and the afternoon, and in between the two there

10 is a visit with Mrs Nelson. Do you remember that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Because it would be right that, had you heard what was

13 said to you in the afternoon, that would have been after

14 Mrs Nelson's visit, wouldn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall speaking to Mrs Nelson about either of the

17 two sets of comments that I have been putting to you,

18 the ones in the morning and then the ones in the

19 afternoon?

20 A. No, I can't recall, but at that time I would have told

21 Rosemary of the complaints.

22 Q. I was going to ask you that. Thank you. You can't

23 remember, but what do you think now would have been your

24 reaction to telling her? Would you have told her?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

31

 

1 Q. Because we have, just so we are clear, the comments in

2 the morning are about her, the IRA giving her the

3 statement, the IRA pulling her strings, a new law in

4 1989 to do away with solicitors who concocted

5 solicitors. Then in the afternoon:

6 "This has been going on for 30 years, it wasn't

7 going to change now. Tell half-face that. Rosemary got

8 the witnesses after you made the statement."

9 So you think you would have told her all that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Presumably you can't remember any reaction by her?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Could we have, please, on the right-hand side of the

14 screen, RNI-217-010 (displayed). We can see here

15 a letter the head of which we are all familiar with:

16 "Rosemary Nelson, solicitors' office."

17 Presumably you have seen a few of those letters in

18 your time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Dated 27th February:

21 "My client: Mr Marshall.

22 "I understand that during the course of the first

23 interview with my client this morning, certain

24 derogatory comments were made about me. In view of that

25 and in order to protect my own position and that of my

 

 

32

 

1 client, I request that I be permitted to remain with my

2 client during all future interviews."

3 Now, I hope that that letter is self-explanatory to

4 you?

5 A. Sorry, say that again?

6 Q. I hope that letter is self-explanatory to you? It has

7 obviously been written by Mrs Nelson?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it is obvious that she had been told by someone,

10 presumably you, about derogatory comments in the morning

11 of 27th February?

12 A. That must be correct.

13 Q. She doesn't mention specifics; she just mentions

14 derogatory comments being made about her. Can you see

15 that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So there isn't anything like as specific as you have

18 told us in your statement made soon after the event.

19 And there are no references to any threats to her life

20 in there, are there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. If we go, please, to the document we have already on the

23 left-hand side of the screen at 13.30. Highlight that

24 entry, please. I am sorry, this is rather tedious

25 looking at all these documents that you don't remember,

 

 

33

 

1 Mr Marshall, but you will understand that it is

2 important that we follow it through:

3 "Interviewed subject in his cell."

4 I think it is "re" I can't quite read it:

5 "... allegations he wished to make. Written

6 statement declined, verbal comments noted.

7 Inspector~[blank], Castlereagh, informed. He directed

8 no further immediate [I think] action was necessary."

9 So here you are in the lunch break, as it were,

10 being spoken to. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you didn't want to make a written statement. Can

13 you recollect why that was?

14 A. No, I can't.

15 Q. But your verbal comments were noted.

16 Could we call up to the right-hand side of the

17 screen, RNI-217-049 (displayed). I hope we have the

18 same sergeant. I won't read the introductory part of

19 it:

20 "On Friday, 27th February, I was the early duty

21 sergeant. At 13.30 hours I interviewed Mr Marshall

22 re allegations he wished to make. I visited him to make

23 a written statement but he declined my offer.

24 I informed him that it may not be possible to

25 investigate the matter fully if he does not make full

 

 

34

 

1 account of the facts. He stated verbally:

2 "'During the first interview this morning, the

3 detective said my solicitor, Rosemary Nelson, had

4 concocted my statement.'

5 "He had nothing further to add. I then informed

6 Inspector [blank], Castlereagh, of the complaint. He

7 directed no further immediate action was necessary."

8 Again, I hope you are able to see why I am taking

9 you rather slowly through these statements. We have on

10 the left the custody record of him coming to see you,

11 verbal comments noted, and then we have a statement of

12 those comments. Can you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What I would like to just ask you is on the right-hand

15 side we have, if you like, a self-contained allegation:

16 "Rosemary Nelson had concocted my statement."

17 That is what was said by the police. But if we put

18 up RNI-115-153 on the right-hand side (displayed), and

19 highlight the Friday paragraph, we have:

20 "In the first interview on the Friday morning they

21 said the IRA had given her the statement which I had

22 given them. They said the IRA were pulling her strings.

23 They also said there was a new law passed in 1989 which

24 meant they could do away with solicitors who concocted

25 stories."

 

 

35

 

1 So whilst I accept what you say to the sergeant is

2 more or less similar about concocting a statement,

3 pulling her strings and so on, you don't first of all

4 give the detail that you do in this statement, and

5 secondly you don't tell the sergeant about what, on one

6 view, might be the most serious comment: that they could

7 do away with solicitors who concocted stories. Do you

8 understand what I am suggesting?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you have any comment that you would like to help

11 explain that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You were released from Castlereagh eventually on

14 27th February, and if we look at RNI-217-095 (displayed)

15 we have got the last piece of history of your detention.

16 And if we just look underneath the line about a quarter

17 of the way down the page, we can see:

18 "Have you any complaints to make against any police

19 officer while you were in police custody at Castlereagh

20 station?"

21 Just below that you say:

22 "My reply is I have already made them."

23 So you are certainly telling the police that you

24 have registered a complaint?

25 A. That's correct.

 

 

36

 

1 Q. I suspect I know the answer to this question, but I am

2 afraid I am going to have to ask you anyway: what, when

3 you signed this form, did you think the complaint you

4 had registered was about?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: When you didn't sign the form?

7 MR SAVILL: I am sorry: when you refused to sign the form.

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. Same answer. You were released. You had the

10 opportunity to set out in here more detail, perhaps;

11 would you agree with that?

12 A. Sorry, say it again?

13 Q. You had the opportunity to record here much more detail,

14 didn't you? You could have said all the things that we

15 have gone through in your statement but you didn't, did

16 you? You just said:

17 "I have already made them"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So as far as you were concerned, it would seem that

20 enough had been done. Is that fair?

21 A. Most of my complaints I made through my solicitor.

22 I made my complaints to my solicitor.

23 Q. For the reasons you have already told us?

24 A. Yes, that is the reason why they are in that statement.

25 Q. Once you were released, we have got you, as it were,

 

 

37

 

1 walking out the door saying, "I have already made them".

2 What did you think was going to happen as a result of

3 those complaints you had registered?

4 A. The time before, I made complaints and nothing ever

5 happened. So probably no difference this time.

6 Q. Your hopes weren't --

7 A. No.

8 Q. -- very high, would that be right?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. But you made the complaints nevertheless?

11 A. I must have been legally advised to make them.

12 Q. I was going to ask you that, because you make, as far as

13 I can see, three complaints. The first is the business

14 of writing questions down but not asking them, being

15 given the wrong advice; the second is you were

16 interviewed after 11 pm; and the third is that the

17 statement had been concocted. And all of those were

18 after you had seen your legal adviser.

19 So just be careful about this, but are you saying --

20 or can you not remember -- that you only made complaints

21 once you had had the opportunity to discuss them with

22 a legal representative?

23 A. I can't remember, but that must be correct.

24 Q. And just finally on this little discrete area, we have

25 already seen -- and I don't want it called up again --

 

 

38

 

1 that the duty sergeant says that he told you it may not

2 have been possible to fully investigate the complaint

3 without a written statement. Do you remember that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What I am driving at is that your lack of cooperation,

6 you were warned, might not help the future of the

7 complaint, but you don't recall that, no?

8 A. I can't recall that, no.

9 Q. You don't remember that. You made your complaints

10 through your solicitor, you say. Can you remember, once

11 you were released -- I probably shouldn't ask you what

12 you first did when you were released, but can you

13 remember what you did in relation to going to see

14 Mrs Nelson?

15 A. I'm not too sure, but I think I might have gone to the

16 office the Friday after I was released, but I think the

17 office might have been closed. It would have been

18 either Monday or Tuesday before I went there.

19 Q. Just be careful. We are talking about the day of your

20 release, are we?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we call up, please, RNI-843-080 on the right-hand

23 side of the screen (displayed). And if we could

24 highlight paragraph 10:

25 "When I was released, the RUC took me from

 

 

39

 

1 Castlereagh to Lurgan and I think I went straight to

2 Rosemary's office to tell her what had happened.

3 However, by the time I got to her office, it may well

4 have been too late for me to have a discussion with her

5 and to tell her that I was released and to give her the

6 full details of what had been said about her."

7 We see on the left-hand side of the screen that you

8 were released at 17.05; yes? Can you see that, middle

9 of the page?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So just looking at this explanation, is it your

12 recollection that you in fact tried to go and see her

13 straight away?

14 A. Rosemary's office is beside Lurgan police station, it's

15 only about 100 yards away. So whenever I was released,

16 I would have walked down to the office to see if she was

17 there.

18 Q. You use what may or may not be an interesting

19 expression:

20 "It may have been too late for me to have

21 a discussion with her."

22 What do you mean by that? Do you mean too late

23 because she was going home?

24 A. I can't remember, but the office may have been closed.

25 Q. So you don't recollect whether, on one view, you went

 

 

40

 

1 in, it was open, people were there but it was too late,

2 or whether you got there and the shutters were down?

3 A. No, I can't remember.

4 Q. You can't recall.

5 We have had on the screen your statement,

6 RNI-217-115, please, on the right-hand side, to

7 RNI-217-152 (displayed). This is the statement that we

8 have been using, that we have been referring to; yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. "Statement of Gary Marshall". I just want to ask you

11 about that statement being given. Do you have any

12 recollection of when, where and to whom you gave that

13 statement?

14 A. I am near sure it was Rosemary's office and a fellow

15 from the CAJ, Paul Mageean, was there as well. And I am

16 near sure he was the one who took the statement.

17 Q. And how did it come about that this man, Mr Mageean, was

18 there doing this? Do you remember?

19 A. Because I was detained longer -- what Rosemary had

20 thought was I was detained longer than what I should

21 have been. I think she got Paul Mageean involved.

22 Q. Right. So let us just take stock: you go down to the

23 office and it is shut; yes? Do you then telephone

24 Mrs Nelson? Does she ring you? What happens next?

25 A. I can't remember. I may have telephoned her, I just

 

 

41

 

1 can't remember back that far.

2 Q. So is the next thing that you remember giving this

3 statement to Mr Mageean?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But interestingly, I think you say that this was because

6 you had been detained too long?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So it didn't have anything to do, on your understanding,

9 with the threats to you or to Mrs Nelson?

10 A. I don't know. It could be to do with that as well. I'm

11 not 100 per cent sure.

12 Q. Can we have, please, on the left-hand side of the

13 screen, RNI-843-080 (displayed). Could we highlight

14 paragraph 12, please:

15 "We can see the [exhibit number] to this statement

16 is a statement that I think was taken down by

17 Paul Mageean when I was at Rosemary's office. I think

18 that Rosemary was present, but I can't be I sure. I'm

19 not sure why Paul Mageean got involved; it may be

20 because he was involved in a human rights organisation

21 and I think I was told that he had been involved with

22 European court cases about holding people for too long.

23 Maybe that is why Rosemary involved him. I am not aware

24 of any other human rights organisations being involved

25 in my arrest and release."

 

 

42

 

1 But in any event you gave this statement to him;

2 yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if I can help you with the date, if we could have on

5 the right-hand side, RNI-217-020 (displayed), we have

6 a letter from CAJ to Mr Adam Ingram. And if we turn the

7 page, please, to RNI-217-021 (displayed) we can see in

8 the italics the top and the bottom of the page -- I

9 don't think we need to highlight them -- some familiar

10 words, which obviously accord and relate and replicate

11 what you said in your statement to Mr Mageean. Can you

12 see them in the italics?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So if we go back a page, please, to RNI-217-020

15 (displayed) we can see the date of that letter is

16 5th March 1998. So it would seem more than likely that

17 you had given the statement by that date?

18 A. It must be true.

19 Q. What I want to ask you just at this point is this: you

20 obviously don't remember, you tell us, but looking at

21 the document, some very nasty things -- my words -- had

22 been said whilst you were detained. Is that fair?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Nasty personal remarks about Mrs Nelson?

25 A. That's correct.

 

 

43

 

1 Q. Threats to you?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Threats to her?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And yet the emphasis, you seem to be suggesting, wasn't

6 on those matters but was on the fact that you had been

7 kept too long in custody.

8 Now, am I being fair in saying that?

9 A. I suppose you are fair, yes.

10 Q. But wasn't it your first priority to go and tell

11 Mrs Nelson about the awful things and threats that had

12 been said whilst you were in detention?

13 A. Well, Rosemary came that Friday to visit me. So I must

14 have told her then, the Friday at lunchtime, and then

15 I must have told her whenever I got out about Friday

16 afternoon as well.

17 Q. But the letter that we see from her, that we have seen,

18 only refers to derogatory remarks about her?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. How did you feel, once you had been released, about the

21 whole episode, about the whole behaviour of the police,

22 the comments, the threats? Can you remember?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. And having seen them now for the first time, probably

25 for a little while, on the screen and in the documents,

 

 

44

 

1 do you have any reaction to it today?

2 A. It's not very nice.

3 Q. Now, it may be suggested to you that actually none of

4 these things were said?

5 A. They were.

6 Q. And you understand why I am suggesting this to you, that

7 you were not cooperating with the police in any shape or

8 form?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Not replying in your interviews, not signing the

11 documents, and so on and so forth?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that either under your own steam or as a part of a

14 pre-arranged strategy should you be arrested, you would

15 make allegations against the police officers who had

16 interviewed you in order to discredit them or discredit

17 the RUC?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What do you say about that?

20 A. No. What I have made in that statement is totally true.

21 Q. You mean the statement to the CAJ?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And also the statement to this Inquiry?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did Mrs Nelson go on to discuss with you the complaint

 

 

45

 

1 investigation?

2 A. I can't remember.

3 Q. What I am suggesting is you have made your statement to

4 Mr Mageean?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Told him what had happened. What did you know happened

7 after that?

8 A. I can remember getting a letter from the CAJ that

9 Paul Mageean had brought my case up to the European

10 Court of Human Rights and it had just been threw out.

11 Q. I just lost that a little bit. Paul Mageean had brought

12 your case up?

13 A. To the European Court of Human Rights and it had been

14 just threw out.

15 Q. And this, again, is about the delay in releasing you?

16 A. It must be, yes.

17 Q. So again, my words -- tell me if I am wrong -- were you

18 focusing more, having given the statement, on your

19 rights, as in being detained too long, as opposed to the

20 remarks made and the threats made? Is that fair or not?

21 A. Well, it was Paul that -- Paul Mageean that was bringing

22 it up, but I had give -- I had told Rosemary what was

23 being said, so ...

24 Q. Let's just explore that. Are you then saying that

25 because you had told Mrs Nelson about these other

 

 

46

 

1 things -- and I want to be fair -- if I am putting words

2 in your mouth, please tell me. Because you had told her

3 about these other things, you expected her to move those

4 forward. Is that what you are saying?

5 A. Yes, it must have been, yes.

6 Q. As I say, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

7 A. I know.

8 Q. You understand what I was saying. We have on the one

9 hand, "It is not fair, I was kept there too long", and

10 on the other hand, "It is extremely nasty, because

11 things are being said about Mrs Nelson and threats are

12 being made to her and to myself"?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And really you are wanting to push forward your "I was

15 kept there too long" and you thought Mrs Nelson was

16 going to push through the threats and the derogatory

17 remarks?

18 A. I think Mrs Nelson got Paul Mageean involved and she was

19 pushing the thing through the European Court of Human

20 Rights.

21 Q. Were you worried on Mrs Nelson's behalf?

22 A. Well, several times I'd been arrested and they had made

23 threatening remarks. I just -- it came to the stage

24 where I just didn't listen any more.

25 Q. Just to be clear, threatening remarks about you?

 

 

47

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Or about Mrs Nelson?

3 A. No, about me.

4 Q. Right. So as far as you were concerned, water off

5 a duck's back?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. But what about Mrs Nelson? This is your solicitor,

8 a solicitor.

9 A. As I am saying, I told Mrs Nelson what they were saying

10 about her.

11 Q. And, therefore, job done?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you gave this statement, presumably were you

14 content for it to be handed on to whoever she or

15 Paul Mageean saw fit?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. And had you, prior to this, made any complaints against

18 the police?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. And although I think I know the answer, after this, did

21 you make any complaints against the police?

22 A. No, I never got in contact with them afterwards.

23 Q. I am talking about separate complaints, not this one?

24 A. I don't know, I can't remember.

25 Q. You can't remember.

 

 

48

 

1 Could we just call up RNI-217-026, please

2 (displayed). We can see at the top there that this is

3 a recorded delivery from the Complaints and Discipline

4 department, dated 30th March. And it is addressed to

5 you and there is an address at the top of the page. Do

6 you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And just hopefully sweeping this up in one go, from

9 1998, at that time, you were living at that address?

10 A. No, I wasn't. I wasn't there, no.

11 Q. In March 1998?

12 A. No. I think I was, yes.

13 Q. Well, we can go to recorded delivery stickers if

14 necessary, but you were there then?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I suspect you are about to tell me that you weren't

17 there all the time after 1998, or were you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When did you move?

20 A. It was shortly after. It was in maybe April.

21 Q. I am sorry?

22 A. April or June.

23 Q. Right. So later that year you moved?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But on that date, you were sent a letter asking for you

 

 

49

 

1 to be at Lurgan RUC station -- this is the fourth

2 paragraph down, if we could highlight the fourth

3 paragraph down to the bottom -- asking you to come for

4 an interview essentially; yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then if we look at the second to last paragraph:

7 "If you don't agree to such a meeting, please

8 provide me with details of witnesses and other relevant

9 evidence you would wish to be considered."

10 Yes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the last paragraph -- highlight it, please:

13 "Please note, if I do not receive a reply by

14 20th April 1998, I shall assume that you do not intend

15 keeping the appointment and I shall not attend."

16 So the question, you will anticipate, Mr Marshall,

17 is: do you remember seeing that letter?

18 A. I remember receiving letters but I can't remember

19 whether it was that one or not.

20 Q. Now, could we call up RNI-217-038 (displayed). We can

21 see -- and I am afraid I can't quite make out the date

22 on that -- the something of June, it looks like the

23 18th, thereabouts. Do you think you were still living

24 at this address at that time?

25 A. No.

 

 

50

 

1 Q. You don't?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was your mail being forwarded?

4 A. Yes, it was being forwarded, yes.

5 Q. But you didn't receive this letter either?

6 A. I don't know if I received it or not. I may have.

7 Q. Let me, bearing in mind you are saying you may have

8 done, just ask you this: were you at the time aware that

9 there were people wanting to see or speak to you about

10 the complaint?

11 A. Well, reading those letters now, if I've received them,

12 it must be true.

13 Q. But what I am asking you is at the time, after your

14 release, 1998, were you aware that people were trying to

15 get in touch with you to enable this complaint to be

16 taken forward?

17 A. As I say, I can't remember whether I got those letters

18 or not. I may have, I don't know. I can't remember

19 back that far.

20 Q. Sir, I am aware of the time. There is a document issue

21 that needs to be resolved similar to that which we have

22 already encountered this afternoon, so I wonder if

23 perhaps we can take a break at this moment for a few

24 minutes?

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Should we have a 10-minute break?

 

 

51

 

1 MR SAVILL: Thank you.

2 (2.44 pm)

3 (Short break)

4 (3.00 pm)

5 MR SAVILL: Thank you very much, sir. Could I just call up

6 on to the screen, please, RNI-217-028 (displayed). This

7 is a recorded delivery slip for the letter we have

8 looked at of 30th March, and you can see a signature in

9 the bottom left-hand box. It is not your signature,

10 is it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Whose signature is that?

13 A. It is my ex-wife's.

14 Q. You will forgive me for asking -- I'm not wanting to

15 pry, obviously -- but is the reason that you have ceased

16 to live at this address anything to do with your

17 marriage?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Because if we look at RNI-217-038 (displayed), this is

20 another letter to you at the same address -- you can

21 take it from me it is the same address we have already

22 looked at. And if we look at RNI-217-039 over the page,

23 again take it from me the signature is that of your

24 wife's again. So going back a page, please, to

25 RNI-217-038 (displayed), 18th June, it seems that you

 

 

52

 

1 were no longer living together. Does that sound right?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Was there an occasion, when, forgive me, you came back

4 to live with your wife at this address, or not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You have already told us to the best of your knowledge,

7 she wasn't hiding the mail, it was being forwarded on to

8 to you.

9 A. That would be correct, yes.

10 Q. And I was asking you about any knowledge you had of the

11 ongoing complaints process. Were you speaking to

12 Mrs Nelson about it at all?

13 A. I can't remember.

14 Q. Could we call up RNI-217-040, please (displayed).

15 Again, this familiar letter heading, 30th June. So we

16 have moved on a little bit since February, and we have

17 a letter to the Royal Ulster Constabulary. And if we

18 look at the third paragraph and highlight it, please:

19 "it is somewhat inconvenient at this stage for my

20 client to attend for interview. However, I shall

21 endeavour to take a comprehensive and detailed statement

22 and forward same to yourselves."

23 And it refers to a letter of 17th June. Now, this,

24 again, would suggest, I think, not unreasonably, that

25 Mrs Nelson was taking instructions from you as to how to

 

 

53

 

1 proceed, because it is inconvenient for you to attend?

2 A. Yes, she may have.

3 Q. She may have done, but you can't remember?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. If we look at RNI-217-224, please (displayed), same

6 letterhead, from Rosemary Nelson solicitors to the Royal

7 Ulster Constabulary. Second paragraph, if we could

8 highlight that, please:

9 "Despite the fact our client was released from

10 Castlereagh holding centre in February this year where

11 he was questioned concerning the murder of [blank],

12 various items of clothing and personal belongings have

13 not been returned to him."

14 Again, I hope up you will accept from me that this

15 is suggestive at the very least that you were concerned

16 about getting back some of your clothes. So you were in

17 contact with Mrs Nelson?

18 A. That must be correct, yes.

19 Q. Could we call up, please, RNI 843-082 (displayed). And

20 we look at paragraph -- highlight -- 23, we can see we

21 are talking about the correspondence addressed to you.

22 And the third line ends with:

23 "I do not actually remember getting any of these

24 letters, though I may well have done so. I cannot

25 remember if I ever replied to any of the letters, but I

 

 

54

 

1 probably did not respond to any of them. I cannot

2 remember whether I told Rosemary that I was getting

3 these letters, I did not attend for any of the

4 interviews. I do not remember whether this was because

5 I was simply busy or whether I made a conscious decision

6 since I did not trust them."

7 Is that what you would say today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Had you at any time told Mrs Nelson that you didn't want

10 to continue with the complaint?

11 A. I can't remember.

12 Q. Because in fact you never did attend to assist with it,

13 did you?

14 A. No, I mustn't have.

15 Q. Can I ask you this question: how did you expect the

16 Complaints and Discipline department to take the

17 complaint forward if you yourself didn't cooperate?

18 A. I don't know. I just didn't want to have any dealings

19 with members of the RUC.

20 Q. But you had gone and set out all these allegations to

21 Mrs Nelson and Mr Mageean, hadn't you?

22 A. That's correct, because that is what was said in the

23 interviews.

24 Q. What is the point of doing that if, as I understand you

25 to be saying, you were saying, well, I simply didn't

 

 

55

 

1 want to take any part in the process?

2 A. That was up to Rosemary. There was a lot said about her

3 as well.

4 Q. And we come back to the discussion you and I had

5 a little while ago concerning your role and her role.

6 I am sorry that I did not take you to this document

7 earlier but we had a problem with the system. Could

8 I call up RNI-835-157 (displayed). We can see the

9 statement that you gave to the Pat Finucane Centre,

10 dated 24th March 1999, and if we go to the next page,

11 please, RNI-835-158 (displayed), we can see that you

12 signed it, although your name has been redacted there;

13 yes?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. You didn't actually sign your statement to Mr Mageean.

16 Why was that?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. You can't remember. Could we go back to page to

19 RNI-835-157, please (displayed). Could we highlight the

20 third paragraph down to the bottom of the page, if we

21 can do all that in one; I'm not sure. We will just read

22 this. You'll forgive me because I would have woven this

23 into what I asked you earlier, but this is an account

24 you gave to the Pat Finucane Centre:

25 "I was held for seven days in Castlereagh. I was

 

 

56

 

1 questioned about a particular incident throughout my

2 detention. I informed my solicitor about this and gave

3 my details in relation to my whereabouts concerning this

4 matter to her. She, in turn, got these details typed

5 out and on another legal visit to me in Castlereagh,

6 gave this to hand over to the RUC to confirm my

7 whereabouts."

8 Just pausing there, I think we have established that

9 it was probably Mr Mageean, not Mrs Nelson, would that

10 be correct, that gave the typed version to you?

11 A. No --

12 DAME VALERIE STRACHAN: No.

13 MR SAVILL: I am sorry, Mr Vernon. I am sorry, not

14 Mr Mageean. My fault. You say in this statement that

15 Mrs Nelson got the details typed out and gave them to

16 you?

17 A. Right, that's correct.

18 Q. And when we looked at the custody record I think we saw

19 that it was Mr Vernon?

20 A. That's okay.

21 Q. So you think it was Mr Vernon?

22 A. If it is in the custody record, it must have been

23 Mr Vernon.

24 Q. Well, it is not in there what he did, but he was the one

25 that came to see you?

 

 

57

 

1 A. Right.

2 Q. This was by the Wednesday evening, 4th March, so it

3 looks like you got the day but the date wrong:

4 "I gave the statement to the RUC later on that

5 evening at approximately 10 pm. I was questioned for

6 about an hour on this, then went to my cell to sleep.

7 Next day, I was further questioned on the document in

8 the morning. I was seeing Rosemary again later in the

9 day, lunchtime. I informed her that I was questioned

10 last night and again this morning on the contents of my

11 document. These questioning was very heavy and intense,

12 particularly this morning's questioning. I informed

13 Rosemary that the RUC detectives made derogatory

14 comments about herself, i.e. her facial scar. They also

15 alleged that the IRA was telling her what to do and that

16 they were the ones who gave her the statement."

17 Again, I won't necessarily take you to it, but when

18 we looked at your statement to CAJ, it seems that in the

19 morning what was said about Mrs Nelson didn't, according

20 to you, include any comment about her facial scar:

21 "Throughout these last two days, the RUC detectives

22 concentrated on the role of my solicitor. They

23 continually disparaged her professional advice to me and

24 continued to insult her. On a number of occasions they

25 even threatened her life. These comments continued

 

 

58

 

1 right up until my release."

2 What I would like to ask you there again is that

3 having looked at your CAJ statement, we have seen the

4 Friday morning and the Friday afternoon comments, if I

5 can put it that way. But this, your Pat Finucane Centre

6 statement, seems to suggest it was much broader: there

7 were more occasions, continually disparaging her,

8 continued to insult her and on a number of occasions

9 they even threatened her life.

10 Are you content to, as it were, stand by your CAJ

11 statement as to the accurate version of events?

12 A. Yes, that statement there I made was over a year after

13 the CAJ one and the events weren't as clear as what the

14 CAJ one was.

15 Q. That is entirely fair and that is why I am giving you

16 the opportunity to comment on it:

17 "On Friday morning, I requested Rosemary. She

18 arrived around 12 o'clock. I informed her of the

19 insults and threats to her life, death threats. She

20 told me to lodge a complaint to the duty inspector.

21 I informed the duty inspector of the threats to my life

22 and the insults and threats to my solicitor. He refused

23 to take any of these. He informed me that Mrs Nelson

24 would have to make these complaints."

25 Again, does that jog your memory at all?

 

 

59

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. Could we call up RNI-115-153 (displayed). Could we

3 highlight the second half of the bottom paragraph,

4 please. If we look at four or five lines up, the line

5 that ends:

6 "She advised me to make a complaint. I asked to

7 speak the officer in charge and I told the officer who

8 appeared that I wanted to make a complaint about the

9 CID, that they were making remarks about my solicitor.

10 He said that that was nothing to do with him and that my

11 solicitor should complain. I said she'd advised me to

12 make a complaint. So then he recorded my complaint but

13 not in detail."

14 Can I ask you just this, Mr Marshall, at this stage:

15 Was this the first occasion that the RUC had made

16 derogatory remarks about a solicitor to you?

17 A. Not at that particular time. I had been arrested

18 several times before and they had said things about

19 Rosemary as well.

20 Q. So when were these occasions, if we are taking this

21 as February 1997?

22 A. That was before February 1997.

23 Q. That, I am afraid, covers as long time.

24 A. I know. I just can't remember. I was arrested several

25 times.

 

 

60

 

1 Q. Can you bracket it? Are we saying 1996 or earlier, or

2 what?

3 A. It can't be 1996.

4 Q. Could it be earlier than 1996?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. On how many -- being general, a rough estimate --

7 occasions were things said about Mrs Nelson to you?

8 A. It wouldn't have been that many, so it wouldn't. I

9 can't actually remember.

10 Q. Once? Ten times? Four times?

11 A. I can't remember, it has been that long ago.

12 Q. But it is right to say that you didn't make any

13 complaint about that?

14 A. At the time I would have told Rosemary what they were

15 saying, but I never made a complaint.

16 Q. So prior to 1997, on a few occasions things were said

17 about Mrs Nelson which you repeated to her but you

18 yourself didn't make any complaint about?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What did she say about it?

21 A. I don't know, I can't remember.

22 Q. And what were these comments? Were they in the category

23 of derogatory unpleasantness or threats?

24 A. I don't know. I just can't remember back that far.

25 Q. When you were arrested, as we have seen,

 

 

61

 

1 in February 1997, were you arrested with anybody, can

2 you remember?

3 A. No, I was on my own.

4 Q. And as far as other people were concerned in comments

5 about Mrs Nelson, did you know Colin Duffy?

6 A. Yes, I knew Colin Duffy, yes. He is a family friend.

7 Q. Shane McCrory?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Barry or Colm Toman?

10 A. I know of Barry and Colm Toman. They live in the same

11 area.

12 Q. So know Colin Duffy well, don't know Shane McCrory, know

13 of the Toman brothers?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you discuss with any of those individuals your

16 complaints about what had been said whilst you were

17 being detained?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did they at any time discuss with you any complaints

20 they may have been making?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you discuss with anyone after your release the

23 complaints you were making about what had been said

24 about you and Mrs Nelson and the threats made to both of

25 you?

 

 

62

 

1 A. I don't think so, I can't remember.

2 Q. You can't remember.

3 Thank you very much, Mr Marshall. The only thing I

4 would like to say to you just at this stage is the

5 question that we put to all witnesses that come to the

6 Inquiry: we have gone through a lot of documents, I hear

7 what you say about not being able to remember because

8 time has passed, but is there anything you would like to

9 tell the Panel or the Inquiry that I haven't discussed

10 or raised with you this afternoon, because this is your

11 chance to do so?

12 A. No. I think that is it.

13 MR SAVILL: Sir, I don't know if the Panel have any

14 questions.

15 Question by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN

16 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Just one question, if I may. The

17 threats and the comments made to you about Mrs Nelson,

18 you obviously had some time afterwards to think about

19 those comments. In your opinion, why were the comments

20 made? Do you think it was to disorientate you, to

21 confuse you whilst you were in custody, or do you think

22 it was a genuine dislike or hatred for Mrs Nelson?

23 A. The threats towards me were probably against me and then

24 the other ones against Mrs Nelson were -- would have

25 been the same.

 

 

63

 

1 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: You think it was personal against her?

2 A. Yes.

3 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Marshall, thank you for coming before us

5 to give evidence.

6 Now, Mr Donaldson. You would like a short

7 adjournment to discuss matters, would you, with

8 Mr Savill?

9 MR DONALDSON: You have guessed correctly, sir.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know how I anticipated that.

11 MR DONALDSON: I cannot imagine.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Mr Marshall, would you mind remaining

13 just, for a few minutes, I hope. We will adjourn now

14 for a quarter of an hour. I will say until half past

15 three.

16 (3.17 pm)

17 (Short break)

18 (3.29 pm)

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Savill.

20 MR DONALDSON: Sir, may I just say this. I have spoken to

21 Mr Savill. He has indicated there is one important

22 question he is prepared to ask. There are several other

23 matters which I would like to draw to the attention of

24 the Tribunal. It would perhaps be better if I did so in

25 the absence of the witness, if I may respectfully

 

 

64

 

1 suggest.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly. Mr Marshall would you mind

3 leaving for a moment?

4 (Witness leaves)

5 THE CHAIRMAN: What are the questions that Mr Savill is

6 declining to ask which you say should be asked?

7 MR DONALDSON: Yes. May I ask, has the Panel got the list

8 of questions?

9 THE CHAIRMAN: No. If you would like to hand it up.

10 MR DONALDSON: I certainly will do that, sir, yes, (Handed),

11 and I apologise that I have just the one copy available.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Not at all.

13 MR SAVILL: Mr Donaldson, we have a copy but it is marked.

14 I don't know --

15 MR DONALDSON: I don't mind.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: You hand me the unmarked copy.

17 MR DONALDSON: That is the unmarked copy. (Handed)

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

19 MR DONALDSON: I think that there were some questions sent

20 in by MSN, but --

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Let us deal with 1, first of all.

22 MR DONALDSON: I will deal with what is here. I think, sir,

23 there is no need to trouble you with questions 1, 2

24 or 3.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: So we needn't bother with those?

 

 

65

 

1 MR DONALDSON: No, you needn't, because in fact Mr Savill

2 has already discussed those. Or 4, 5 or 6.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: 4, 5 or 6.

4 MR DONALDSON: Or 7.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Number 8?

6 MR DONALDSON: Number 8 is being dealt with.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Is being dealt with, right.

8 MR DONALDSON: We come then to some supplementary questions

9 that were sent in. I think the first one has been dealt

10 with --

11 MR SAVILL: If Mr Donaldson will excuse me -- and I hope he

12 will -- when he says "sent in", I think he means, just

13 so the Panel understands, to us during the questioning.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, I see.

15 MR DONALDSON: No, that is not so. In fact, you will see --

16 I hope it is the same copy -- do you have a reference

17 to, is it, Ms McGann? I said I'd be grateful if you'd

18 add the following supplementary questions.

19 MR SAVILL: There was a secondary email which with Miss McTague

20 will hand to you.

21 MR DONALDSON: You will see the first one, which I will not

22 read out, relates to certain named questions.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: That has been dealt with.

24 MR DONALDSON: That has been dealt with, yes.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

 

 

66

 

1 MR DONALDSON: The next one has not been dealt with. I

2 would like it to be considered.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the relevance of that?

4 MR DONALDSON: Well, it is to show whether or not the nature

5 of his association with these people.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Why?

7 MR DONALDSON: You will recollect that he did say that he

8 didn't know Shane McCrory and he had some very slight

9 knowledge of Barry and Colm Toman. And I think it would

10 be important, I think, for the Inquiry to know the

11 nature of his relationships with them, because it does

12 bear on the issue as to whether or not there was

13 collaboration in relation to the making of complaints.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I see, yes.

15 MR DONALDSON: And the next question has the same effect or

16 for the same purpose. The next question I think would

17 be apparent enough as well in relation to his view of

18 the IRA and also in relation to anti-interrogation

19 techniques.

20 Now, there are two further questions were sent by

21 MSN, which you won't have but we have -- I am afraid

22 they are written out in my junior's handwriting and I'm

23 not -- well, I will hand it in, but just so that it will

24 be understood. The first question is: was he questioned

25 about certain incidents? I am not going to set them

 

 

67

 

1 out. I will hand this in to the Tribunal.

2 Three important matters: One was [redacted]

3 in November 1990, in fact [redacted]; another

4 [redacted] in December 1990; and then thirdly, [redacted]

5 in February 1998. In fact, that quite clearly is the

6 one that he was arrested for and that was the Aghalee

7 murder.

8 A supplementary in relation to that is: did he

9 refuse to answer questions? [redacted]

10 [redacted].

11 THE CHAIRMAN: If he refused to answer questions, of course

12 you will have a record of that, won't you?

13 MR DONALDSON: Yes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: So there is no need to ask him those

15 questions, because you will have a record.

16 MR DONALDSON: It is important to know what his answer is,

17 sir. Whether we have a record or not, we will see what

18 his answer is.

19 MR SAVILL: If I can help, I have certainly asked him, I

20 think, trying to be helpful, in relation to the matter

21 he was arrested for in 1997 about replies in interview.

22 Obviously I haven't ask him about the first two [redacted]

23 in time, November and December 1990. But I certainly

24 recollect saying to him it was right on occasions he

25 made no reply.

 

 

68

 

1 MR DONALDSON: That is certainly so, and I am very grateful

2 to my friend for that. That is certainly so.

3 That was the incident, though, more recently

4 in February 1998, we are particularly interested to see

5 what his policy was prior to that.

6 And then finally in relation to [redacted

7 redacted] -- now, I know this has been an issue that the

8 Inquiry's, I think, general view is that that would

9 depend on the circumstances.

10 Now, we have heard the evidence of the witness and

11 the Tribunal has had an opportunity of hearing him and

12 forming, no doubt, some provisional views about him, but

13 we would like enquiry to be made [redacted

14 redacted

15 redacted.] I wasn't proposing that

16 we would actually read it out to him, but rather to ask

17 him in a general way --

18 THE CHAIRMAN: How would it assist us in assessing his

19 credibility?

20 MR DONALDSON: Yes, sir.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: How would it?

22 MR DONALDSON: Well, [redacted

23 redacted,] in our respectful submission,

24 affect his credibility. [redacted

25 redacted

 

 

69

 

1 redacted

2 redacted

3 redacted

4 redacted.]

5 THE CHAIRMAN: You explain to us why questioning this

6 witness [redacted] would assist us in

7 assessing his credibility.

8 MR DONALDSON: Sir, it shows -- it goes to his character.

9 It is about his character we are speaking. [redacted

10 redacted

11 redacted

12 redacted.]

13 That is our submission, sir. That is why it is

14 important.

15 (Pause)

16 THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn for a few minutes.

17 (3.36 pm)

18 (Short adjournment)

19 (3.50 pm)

20 MR SAVILL: Thank you, sir.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Savill.

22 MR SAVILL: Mr Marshall, can I first of all apologise for

23 the way you have been brought in and out.

24 Just one question I would like to ask you finally:

25 you have made reference, orally and in some of the

 

 

70

 

1 documents we have looked at, to threats against

2 Rosemary Nelson's safety.

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Could I just ask you, please, can you remember, what

5 were the words actually used rather than that general

6 expression of threats?

7 A. I can't remember what the actual words were, so I can't.

8 Q. None of them at all?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Other than those we have seen in your written

11 statements?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR SAVILL: Thank you.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Marshall. You can now leave,

15 and thank you for coming to give evidence before us.

16 Mr Donaldson, we have considered your submission.

17 Our previous ruling in our judgment covers your

18 submission and we are satisfied that this witness has

19 been comprehensively and fairly questioned.

20 MR DONALDSON: As the Tribunal pleases.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: We adjourn until 10.15 tomorrow.

22 (3.51 pm)

23 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.15 am the following day)

24

25

 

 


 

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Question by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN ............... 62
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