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Full Hearings

Hearing: 17th June 2008, day 36

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ROSEMARY NELSON

PUBLIC INQUIRY

 

 

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held at:
The Interpoint Centre
20-24 York Street
Belfast BT15 1AQ


on Tuesday, 17th June 2008
commencing at 10.15 am


Day 36

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



1 Tuesday, 17th June 2008

2 (10.15 am)

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Currans, may we go through the checklist

4 with you, please, before the witness comes in.

5 Is the public area screen fully in place, locked and

6 the key secured?

7 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the fire doors on either side of the

9 screen closed?

10 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the technical support screens in place

12 and securely fastened?

13 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Is anyone other than Inquiry personnel and

15 participants' legal representatives seated in the body

16 of this chamber?

17 MR CURRANS: No, sir.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr [name redacted], can you confirm, please,

19 that the two witness cameras have been switched off and

20 shrouded?

21 MR [name redacted]: Sir, they have.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. All the other cameras been

23 switched off?

24 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, they have.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

 

 

2


1 Bring the witness in, please.

2 The cameras on the Panel, Inquiry personnel and the

3 Full Participants' legal representatives may now be

4 switched back on. May the witness be sworn.

5 C138 (sworn)

6 Questions by MR SAVILL

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Savill.

8 MR SAVILL: Thank you, sir. Before I begin to ask you the

9 questions I am going to this morning, could we, please,

10 call up on to the screen, RNI-842-011 (displayed).

11 This, I hope, shows the first page of your witness

12 statement. You can see the cipher number applied.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if we call up RNI-842-018 (displayed), we can see

15 a cipher where your signature is and the date of that

16 signature?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this is the statement that you gave to the Inquiry;

19 yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I am going to ask you some questions that go back

22 a number of years. If you can't remember any of the

23 answers to the questions I am asking you, please say so;

24 don't guess.

25 A. Right.

 

 

3


1 Q. Could you do me one other small favour. Could you speak

2 up a bit or move into the microphone, because I think

3 you are quite softly spoken. Do you understand that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That is much better, thank you very much indeed.

6 Could we, please, call up on to the screen

7 RNI-204-004 (displayed). This is a custody record, and

8 if we look at the top right-hand corner, we can see

9 C138?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if we look on the left-hand side, we can see, if we

12 highlight the box "Arrested at" and "Time" and "Date",

13 please:

14 "Place of arrest: Lurgan RUC station, 18.40 hours,

15 6th February 1997."

16 You can see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please remove the highlighted section. And if we could

19 highlight two thirds of the way down on the right-hand

20 side, the box with "Rosemary Nelson, Williams Street"

21 in, please. You did want a solicitor as soon as

22 practicable. Rosemary Nelson, your signature and the

23 request is at 19.21. You can see that as well, I hope?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So you were taken to, or arrested and taken to Lurgan

 

 

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1 RUC station?

2 A. No.

3 Q. No?

4 A. I went myself to Lurgan RUC station.

5 Q. You went yourself?

6 A. Then I was arrested.

7 Q. Then you were arrested?

8 A. And then took to Gough Barracks.

9 Q. So you were taken from Lurgan to Gough Barracks?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if we could call up, please, RNI-204-022

12 (displayed), we can see the date -- 9th February 1997,

13 14.15 -- that you were released.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you have requested, or you did request, Mrs Nelson

18 to be your solicitor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many times, roughly speaking, prior to this occasion

21 had you used her as a solicitor?

22 A. Well, I used her before for a claim one time.

23 Q. What was the claim in relation to?

24 A. It was -- I got a hiding.

25 Q. You had used her only once?

 

 

5


1 A. That is -- as far as I can remember. I might have used

2 her before that, but ...

3 Q. What about after this occasion in February, did you use

4 her?

5 A. I didn't really need to use her after that.

6 Q. And what sort of work did you use her for? When you

7 were arrested by the police? You mentioned a claim?

8 A. I wasn't arrested. I had been beat up on the streets.

9 So I used her to get the -- make a statement to the

10 police and for a claim.

11 Q. So it was really only in relation to that and on this

12 occasion that you used her. Is that fair?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the question I would like to ask you is what was

15 your opinion of her? What caused you to use her as

16 a solicitor?

17 A. She was very straightforward and she was -- you could

18 understand her when she was talking to you. She didn't

19 use any big words, just talked straight.

20 Q. I hope I am going to do that myself today.

21 A. So do I.

22 Q. If could we call up, please, on to the screen

23 RNI-842-018 (displayed). Could we highlight

24 paragraph 32, please. I think you kindly told those

25 interviewing you a little bit more and I will just read

 

 

6


1 that:

2 "I know Rosie was well respected around this end of

3 town and even at the top of town. To explain, Lurgan is

4 split in half with the top of the town being Protestant

5 and the bottom Catholic. She even took cases from

6 there. She done a murder case up there. She was like

7 any solicitor. She would just take a case. You can't

8 refuse a case on the basis of religion or colour or

9 creed. She didn't just work for Catholics, she was just

10 like any other solicitor and would just take a new

11 client. When I was in her office, there wasn't only one

12 side, there were people from both sides. A solicitor is

13 a solicitor to me and that is how I take them!"

14 Exclamation mark.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you say there were people from both sides, just

17 explain that to me, please?

18 A. There were Catholics and Protestants used her office.

19 Q. Can we highlight paragraph 33:

20 "I don't know much about her other work as a

21 solicitor. All I know is that she was a general

22 solicitor and did home buying and claims and whatever

23 solicitor does. She had had a couple of big cases but

24 generally she was just a solicitor. She had done bits

25 and pieces for me before and she was very easy to speak

 

 

7


1 to, which is why I used her. She was one of the first

2 women solicitors in this town and was well established.

3 She had lodged a claim for me in the past, so I just

4 kept using her."

5 If you will forgive me, that paragraph, to me, tends

6 to suggest that you had perhaps used her more than just

7 the twice that you had told us. Is that fair?

8 A. Yes. I can't remember. I may have used her for when I

9 was buying the house.

10 Q. Would it be right to say you had only used her on

11 a handful of occasions?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, when you were taken into custody, you have told

14 us -- and on a previous occasion told others -- about

15 the remarks that were made about Mrs Nelson, and I am

16 going to ask you about that in a moment.

17 To be fair to you, sitting here today we do have,

18 obviously, records of these matters. How clear in your

19 own mind now, sitting there, are the remarks that you

20 say were said?

21 A. I can still remember, like, what they said to me, like.

22 Q. So quite good. As I say, this isn't meant to be a test

23 of your memory. So I just want to explore with you what

24 you can and can't remember.

25 So just telling me now, what were the remarks that

 

 

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1 you recollect that were said about her? We will come to

2 detail in a moment.

3 A. They went on more or less that she was only a money

4 grabber and more or less telling me that if I hadn't had

5 her I would have been out earlier, and more or less said

6 that she was a Provo and all; that the only people she

7 worked for was Provos and nobody else.

8 Q. So using my description, these were abusive and

9 unpleasant remarks about her?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But no actual threats to her?

12 A. No. Just remarks.

13 Q. Just remarks. Could we call up on to the screen,

14 please, RNI-204-013 (displayed). Thank you. Could we

15 highlight the bottom two lines. We can see on the

16 7th February at 11.06:

17 "Escorted to solicitor's room for legal visit."

18 This was the second day of your detention?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You had a meeting with Mrs Nelson?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I think it is right to say that at that meeting

23 discussions were had about what had been going on thus

24 far in the detention you had had at Gough Barracks?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

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1 Q. And you were, I think -- and I want you to tell us about

2 this -- having, as you would put it, perhaps a tough

3 time in the interviews?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that fair?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Just expand on that a little bit?

8 A. Well, more or less they would sit there calling you

9 everything and saying that you were guilty of all the

10 charges. More or less putting you down, like.

11 Q. And you discussed that with Mrs Nelson?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what did she say to you about that?

14 A. She just said it's all your head, don't let them

15 intimidate you --

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. -- you know.

18 Q. Did she make any suggestion to you --

19 A. She wrote a statement.

20 Q. I am going to come to that in a moment, but as far as

21 advising you, did she make any suggestions to you about

22 what you should do or what you shouldn't say, what you

23 might like to do, because of --

24 A. She advised me -- when I asked for my solicitor, if they

25 didn't bring a solicitor, just tell them that you want

 

 

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1 to see an inspector.

2 Q. So --

3 A. That is what she told me.

4 Q. Would it be right to say that she made you aware of your

5 ability and right to complain?

6 A. She made me aware of my legal rights.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. If I wanted to see my solicitor, how to go about it.

9 Q. Could we call up paragraph 13, please, at page 842-013

10 (displayed). Could we highlight paragraph 13:

11 "During my consultation with Rosie, I made

12 a statement which Rosie wrote out and I signed. Rosie

13 told me to hand over the statement when I was taken back

14 in to the interview. She told me that if they carried

15 on acting like this that I should ask to see the

16 superintendent."

17 Can you recall that now?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As I say, we will come to this statement in just

20 a moment, but there was a consultation between you and

21 your solicitor when you told her how you felt, what had

22 been happening to you. She gave you advice about it.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And a statement was given between you and her in this

25 consultation.

 

 

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1 Now, could we call up on to the screen RNI-204-002

2 (displayed). We can see a handwritten statement, and if

3 one, as it were, doesn't read it but just looks at the

4 handwriting and then looks at the bottom, you can see,

5 dated 7th February 1997, signed by you and witnessed by

6 Rosemary Nelson. And as I say, I am not an expert in

7 handwriting but I think it might be fair to say that the

8 handwriting in the body of the document and the

9 signature of Rosemary Nelson seems similar-ish; is that

10 fair?

11 A. Would you explain --

12 Q. That the person who has written this statement was

13 Mrs Nelson?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that what happened?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Right. I don't intend to read all of this statement --

18 we can all see it -- but generally speaking, it speaks

19 as to your activities and movements concerning the

20 allegations made against you.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Dealing just, if I may, with how this statement came

23 into being, you consulted with your solicitor. Did you

24 say, "Right, I need to tell you what happened" or did

25 she say, "Right, you need to tell me what happened"?

 

 

12


1 How did the statement come into being?

2 A. She more or less asked me how things are going and what

3 happened. So she says, "right, this -- she more or less

4 advised me this is how you go about it. She would write

5 out a statement and I will bring it into the cops and

6 show them.

7 Q. Because obviously she wasn't allowed into the interview?

8 A. No.

9 Q. As far as this statement was concerned, did you speak

10 uninterrupted and she sat there, as it were, steam

11 coming off the pen, writing out what you were saying, or

12 did she stop, ask you questions? How did the statement

13 get put together?

14 A. She -- I told what happened and she wrote it down, and

15 then she asked some questions and other things. She

16 just took it down. She never told me what to say or

17 anything. She just more or less wrote what I told her.

18 Q. As you have said that, perhaps I can ask you directly

19 then: these are your own words?

20 A. More or less.

21 Q. Perhaps paraphrased --

22 A. She has maybe changed them, like, but more or less that

23 is -- whatever is writ there is what I told her.

24 Q. This may seem a funny question but why did you sign it?

25 Why did she ask you to sign it?

 

 

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1 A. I couldn't tell you.

2 Q. Did she ask you to read it through?

3 A. Yes, and then she said, "Sign it". I couldn't tell you

4 what ...

5 Q. No, but as far as you are concerned, this was

6 a statement that she had written but you agreed with its

7 contents?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you signed it, as we can see, on 7th February?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could we call up, please, RNI-204-012 (displayed). If

14 we go to the top of the page, we can see an entry at

15 11.52. Can we highlight that, please. We can see that

16 you went for an interview with P162 and P135 after you

17 had had this consultation with Mrs Nelson?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This interview lasted until just after one o'clock and

20 I think you mentioned earlier that the statement that

21 you had given to Mrs Nelson obviously had to find its

22 way to the police officers?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So do you recollect that in this interview you in fact

25 did hand over this statement to the police?

 

 

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1 A. Yes. After I made the statement with Rosie, the next

2 time I was brought in to be interviewed, I handed them

3 the statement.

4 Q. We can see at the top of the page that you are returned

5 to your cell at 11.46 and then you are interviewed at

6 11.53. Could we now call up on to the screen,

7 RNI-204-035, please (displayed). We do in fact have the

8 interview at 11.53 am. Can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Interviewee C138.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And if we could turn the page, please, to RNI-204-036

13 (displayed) and highlight the top half of that page,

14 there is a question.

15 Now, obviously just to refresh your memory, these

16 are notes made by the police officers summarising the

17 interview. It is not a transcript from a tape or

18 anything like that.

19 A. No.

20 Q.

21 "Question: Did you see your solicitor?

22 "Answer: Yes, my solicitor, Rosemary Nelson, wrote

23 out a statement for me telling what happened. I have

24 signed it and handed it over to you.

25 "Question: We have read over the statement and

 

 

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1 [P135] then ..."

2 I think it is:

3 "... labelled and bagged the statement marking it

4 ..."

5 Then I think it is a number:

6 "Do you understand?

7 "Answer: Yes."

8 Do you follow that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There are two officers in the interview and it seems

11 from this record that this was when you handed over the

12 statement?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recollect whether they both read it or one read

15 it out loud, or can you not remember?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. But can you remember what their response was to this

18 statement?

19 A. Yes, they more or less said it was a load of bollocks,

20 a load of shite, it was lies was more or less they told

21 me.

22 Q. Again, if you will forgive me, that language is

23 perfectly acceptable but could I ask you to quote them

24 rather than substitute your own? So is that what they

25 actually said?

 

 

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1 A. They more or less said it was lies. You are more or

2 less fabricating, you are making up lies.

3 Q. Just to be clear about this, they were saying that about

4 you?

5 A. They were saying it about the statement, the statement

6 that I handed in.

7 Q. What I am driving at is were they suggesting that

8 Mrs Nelson had played some part in lying and making

9 things up, or were they just saying --

10 A. What is in the statement was me, I was telling them.

11 Q. Right. What would you describe their behaviour like?

12 Were they very calm or were they excited? Were they

13 shouting? How would you describe that?

14 A. A bit of everything. At times they were calm, at other

15 times they were shouting at you, roaring at you. They

16 seemed agitated at times.

17 Q. I am asking you about this time.

18 A. They were more or less agitated and they were shouting.

19 Q. Can you remember anything else that they said about the

20 statement?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Could we call up, please, RNI-842-014 (displayed). I'm

23 not sure how much we can highlight, but could we

24 highlight from the top of the page to the bottom of

25 paragraph 16. So I have just taken it from the previous

 

 

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1 page:

2 "They said it was a load of shite, all lies and they

3 wouldn't believe it. It was after that point that the

4 abuse about Rosie started."

5 So we are clear about this: no abuse prior to

6 handing over the statement?

7 A. No.

8 Q. "They were trying to scare me, trying to play wee mind

9 games to scare the life out of me. They started calling

10 Rosie everything under the sun. They said she was a

11 Fenian bastard and a Provo bastard, and said the reason

12 I was using her was because she was a Provo solicitor.

13 They also said, 'She is only here for the fucking money,

14 she is a fucking money-grabbing bastard.' They said she

15 got money each time she visited me and it would cost me

16 in the end. They suggested the only thing she was in it

17 for was the money and that if I got out I would have a

18 massive bill to pay and then I would be fucked. I asked

19 Rosemary about this when I got out of Gough, and she

20 said no, I didn't owe her a penny.

21 "They mentioned Colin Duffy and said that she was

22 the same as the rest of them. I knew who they were

23 referring to as Lurgan is the type of place where

24 everybody knows everybody."

25 Dropping down a line:

 

 

18


1 "They also mocked Rosie's birthmark on her face.

2 The officers also said that if I hadn't asked for Rosie,

3 then I might have been let out more quickly. They were

4 more or less saying that I was guilty and that because

5 I used Rosie, I was a Provo."

6 Could we have highlighted paragraph 17, please:

7 "They were very vindictive about Rosie and they took

8 every chance to have a dig at her and make fun of her."

9 Just pausing there, that seems to be your

10 description of the interview in which you handed over

11 the statement; correct?

12 A. Yes. From there onwards.

13 Q. Well --

14 A. If you know what I mean, from the --

15 Q. You are anticipating what I am just going to ask you,

16 because you say:

17 "Some of the officers were more vindictive than

18 others. There were two officers in particular who were

19 very vindictive: One officer who had a white or grey

20 beard, another, fat with blond hair. Both were very

21 spiteful. These are the two who come to mind."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Again, I just want to be clear with you about this: it

24 starts in this interview?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

19


1 Q. And we have seen the officers that were present. Are

2 you saying that the comments I have just read out and

3 that you have tried to remember were said in this

4 interview only, or some --

5 A. The rest of the ones from there onwards.

6 Q. And what are we saying, please? Are we saying that it

7 was every interview thereafter --

8 A. There was always something said in every interview.

9 They had always had some snide remark to say.

10 Q. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you have

11 given, if I may say so, a fairly broad range of

12 comments. Are you saying, therefore, that in every

13 interview after this one, which were conducted, I think

14 I am right in saying that by different pairs of

15 officers --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- there was at least one of this type of comment made?

18 A. It was always -- at the majority of them, there was

19 always something said. Especially them two, every time

20 they had questioned me, there was always something --

21 them two always said something about -- they spent more

22 time on about Rosie than they did about me.

23 Q. We have seen that you were seen by P135 and P162 when

24 you handed over your statement?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

20


1 Q. And these are the two officers you are describing?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So in interviews with those two officers there was

4 always something said?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what about interviews with other officers? More

7 often than not, or is that not fair? Sometimes?

8 A. Sometimes they would have said. It was mostly them two

9 who did most of it.

10 Q. But you can't be precise about which interviews and

11 which officers; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Because this one we can, as it were, target because it

14 is the one in which you hand over the statement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that an accurate way of putting it?

17 A. More or less, yes.

18 Q. Yes. That may be just your expression, but when you say

19 "more or less" it worries me. Do you want to correct

20 anything you said?

21 A. It started from that. Once I handed the statement over,

22 that is when I started getting abuse. And then from

23 there onwards, I would have started getting abuse more

24 or less. They spent more time talking about Rosemary

25 than they did about me.

 

 

21


1 Q. Again, you may think it a rather strange question but

2 what was the spirit in which these comments were made?

3 Were they made light-heartedly? Nastily?

4 A. Very nastily.

5 Q. Why do you say that?

6 A. They give me the impression that they hated her with

7 a passion.

8 Q. When they said these things to you in whichever

9 interview it was, how did you react, either in your

10 actions or in what you said?

11 A. I never said nothing. Never comment to them.

12 Q. Was that discretion being the better part of valour or

13 was it that you were so shocked? Why didn't you

14 disagree or argue with them, for example?

15 A. I just didn't say anything to them. I just wanted to

16 get out of the place.

17 Q. You couldn't wait to be out?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When you were in custody, were you quite upset or

20 worried by these things and remarks that had been made

21 about Mrs Nelson?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. I mean, you didn't just say to yourself, "Well, it's

24 only words"?

25 A. I was worried about them, because ...

 

 

22


1 Q. Because?

2 A. The way they were getting on, the way the things they

3 were saying about her.

4 Q. And I think I am right in saying this: that the main

5 time, the main occasion when this was said was the first

6 time, when it all was said in the interview when you

7 handed over your statement?

8 A. It was from there onwards. They wouldn't have made

9 comments the first time I handed over the statement, but

10 then they made more comments.

11 Q. So the first time wasn't the worst time?

12 A. No, as it went on.

13 Q. If we call up RNI-204-038 (displayed) and we highlight

14 the bottom paragraph of that page, I hope you will

15 accept from me that this is the last page of the

16 interview in which the abuse started; yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And we can see, third line up:

19 "Notes of the interview read out to subject. He

20 agreed that it was a true record of the witness. He

21 declined to read them or sign them at the moment."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, is that accurate?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you say at the end of the interview -- and you may

 

 

23


1 not have done -- "Hang on a moment, there is nothing in

2 this transcript about all the abuse you have levelled at

3 Mrs Nelson"?

4 A. Did I say it to --

5 Q. To the police officers?

6 A. No, I never said nothing.

7 Q. You didn't. Again, you will --

8 A. I never said nothing, because I was waiting to get out

9 of the place.

10 Q. But do you accept from me that this was an opportunity

11 for you to say, "Hold your horses, I want written down

12 in this transcript that I allege you made abusive

13 remarks about my solicitor"? You could have done that,

14 couldn't you?

15 A. You could have done it, but it probably wouldn't have

16 done you no good. You know what I mean, like, they're

17 not going to write it down on a statement. It wouldn't

18 have done you no good if you made a complaint to them.

19 Q. So you didn't think it would have done you any good to

20 say that to them?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Could we call up RNI-204-012, please (displayed).

23 Without highlighting anything just at the moment, we

24 have got the interview at 11.53, you are returned to

25 your cell at 13.01, and at 13.03, if we could highlight

 

 

24


1 that entry, please:

2 "Prisoner requested visit by his solicitor,

3 Rosemary Nelson. [So and so] is informed."

4 So after the interview you ask to see Mrs Nelson?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I don't want you to guess, but can you remember why you

7 asked to see Mrs Nelson? Because you had seen her just

8 before the interview.

9 A. No, I can't remember.

10 Q. And if we could highlight the entry, please, at

11 15.00 hours, we can see that in fact, whilst you don't

12 see Mrs Nelson, you do see Sharon Keeley from

13 Mrs Nelson's office?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in fact, the interview was terminated so you could

16 see her; yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The question I want to ask you -- again, you may not be

19 able to remember -- is: did you mention to Mrs Keeley

20 that which had been said in this interview?

21 A. I can't remember if I did do or not, to tell you the

22 truth.

23 Q. After that consultation, if we can just get rid of the

24 highlighted part -- thank you very much -- we can see

25 again that you were interviewed at 15.35, if we can

 

 

25


1 highlight that. You are interviewed again by the same

2 officers.

3 Now, I know what you have told us about when the

4 remarks were made. Can you remember looking at this

5 sequence:

6 "See Mrs Nelson, statement given, go into the

7 interview, hand over the statement, abusive remarks.

8 Asked to see Mrs Nelson. See Sharon Keeley."

9 And then you are interviewed again by the same

10 officers. Can you remember whether the abuse continued

11 in that interview?

12 A. I think it did, but I can't be 100 per cent.

13 Q. And if we look at an entry at 16.50, we can see that you

14 made a request to see your solicitor again?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So can you -- again, you may not be able to -- remember

17 why you asked to see her at that point?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. No?

20 A. Probably just to get a break from the questions.

21 Q. It wasn't necessarily to tell her about anything?

22 A. I'm not entirely 100 per cent, like.

23 Q. Let me ask you this general question, which may assist:

24 did you or can you remember telling any of your legal

25 representatives whilst in custody about what had been

 

 

26


1 said regarding Mrs Nelson?

2 A. No, I can't -- I can't remember if I did say anything.

3 Q. You can't remember?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Isn't it likely that you would have said something to

6 them?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. Could we see paragraph 19 of your statement at

9 RNI-842-015 (displayed). Can we highlight that. Thank

10 you. Now, if we look four lines down, we can see at the

11 end of the line:

12 "When I saw Rosie at this time, I didn't tell her

13 what the officers were saying about her. I never said

14 what they were saying about her whilst I was in

15 Gough Barracks. I only told her afterwards when I got

16 out."

17 So pausing there, this is your statement to the

18 Inquiry; do you stand by that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then you go on to say:

21 "It wouldn't have done either of us any good for her

22 to learn of it whilst I was still in there."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just help me, please, because I think it would help me

25 if you just explained and expanded a little bit what you

 

 

27


1 mean by that. Why wouldn't it have done either of you

2 any good?

3 A. Because she would have been more stressed out on what

4 they were saying about her, so she couldn't have been

5 good to help me. She wouldn't have been no good to me.

6 She would have been more annoyed what they were saying

7 about her.

8 Q. Why wouldn't it have helped you?

9 A. Because she wouldn't have been able to advise me on the

10 right way about doing things.

11 Q. So -- and it's an expression of mine -- it would have

12 put her off her game?

13 A. I suppose, yes.

14 Q. Is that what you are saying?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But would you not agree with me that it was in fact

17 a balancing act by you, because on the one hand it might

18 have put her off her game, but on the other it might

19 have been very helpful to her because it would have

20 allowed for a complaint to have been registered and

21 logged there and then, which would then have added

22 weight to the truth of what you were alleging?

23 A. I suppose that's true enough, but I never thought that

24 when I was there.

25 Q. But you would look at me and say that is a very good

 

 

28


1 point but you have the benefit of hindsight?

2 A. It's all right you saying that now, but it's different

3 when you're in the hot seat, as they say.

4 Q. I thought I could see that going through your mind.

5 A. You know, when you were there, you wouldn't have thought

6 of it.

7 Q. Right. And if we could just have on the screen,

8 RNI-204-021 (displayed). This is the, as it were,

9 release page, when you are released, as we have

10 previously discussed.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And without highlighting it -- I think we are all

13 familiar with it -- we can see that it says:

14 "Have you any complaints to make against any police

15 officer?"

16 And right in the middle of the page is "no"?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So same question, I am afraid --

19 A. I couldn't wait to get out of it. As I just said,

20 I just says I'll wait to get out, and I can tell my

21 solicitor, tell her what happened.

22 Q. I was going to ask you that. Once you were released,

23 you were keen and delighted, no doubt, to be let out.

24 What was your intention as regards telling anyone,

25 making any complaint about the abuse about Mrs Nelson?

 

 

29


1 A. I was intending to tell Rosie the next time I seen her.

2 Q. And when did you in fact first speak to Mrs Nelson?

3 A. It was either Monday or Tuesday. I can't be specific

4 what day it was.

5 Q. And what did you say to her on the telephone?

6 A. I went to her office and more or less just told her what

7 had happened, what the craic was.

8 Q. Just follow what I am asking you, if you wouldn't mind.

9 What did you say to her on the telephone?

10 A. That was the Sunday I got out. I told her if I get out

11 of here, I am going to get drunk. So I just told her I

12 was going to get drunk when I was on the telephone to

13 her. She told me to either come the next day or

14 Tuesday.

15 Q. That is what I was going to ask you. You don't say

16 anything on the phone?

17 A. No.

18 Q. But you go and see her?

19 A. See her.

20 Q. Again, I don't want to make light of it, but you say you

21 went and got drunk; that was possibly the prime motive

22 and first thing on your mind. But did you not think to

23 mention to her on the telephone what had happened?

24 A. I was like -- I was waiting to see her face-to-face.

25 I don't like talking to anyone over the telephone. I

 

 

30


1 would rather see them face-to-face and tell them.

2 Q. Right. You made a mutual arrangement that once you had

3 recovered from your exploits of drinking, that you would

4 go and see her?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you say that was Monday or Tuesday, you think?

7 A. It was within the two, I can't remember what day it was.

8 Q. And you saw her personally?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what in fact did you tell her?

11 A. Just more or less told what happened. She asked me what

12 did they say to you. I told her. I more or less

13 explained it. I more or less told her, "I don't think

14 they think much of you" and told her what abuse they

15 were saying about her.

16 Q. Again, you have given us a lot of varieties of abuse.

17 Would it be right to say that you told her what you told

18 us today and is contained in your statement that was

19 said?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you didn't dress it up?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Summarise it? You actually did tell her?

24 A. I just tell her what I made in that statement.

25 Q. And what was her reaction to this?

 

 

31


1 A. She wasn't a bit happy, like.

2 Q. She?

3 A. She wasn't a bit happy, like. You know yourself if

4 someone was saying things like that about you, you

5 wouldn't be happy.

6 Q. Was she taking it very seriously or was she laughing it

7 off?

8 A. No, she was taking it seriously. She was very annoyed.

9 Q. Very annoyed. Did she ask you to do anything?

10 A. She asked would I make a complaint on her behalf and

11 I said yes.

12 Q. Just so we are clear about this, on whose behalf was the

13 complaint being made?

14 A. It's on her behalf.

15 Q. Right. So I am just being clear about this, you weren't

16 telling her and she wasn't suggesting to you that what

17 had happened to you was worthy of a complaint other than

18 in how the remarks related to her?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. To take this complaint forward, you were in her office.

21 Did you give her a statement?

22 A. Yes. I give her an one-page statement there.

23 Q. And hopefully, if we call up RNI-203-007.500

24 (displayed), we have got a written statement there. Do

25 you recognise the handwriting?

 

 

32


1 A. No.

2 Q. No. It is not yours, I mean?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I think I am going to have to read this out to you, if

5 you will just bear with me:

6 "On Thursday, 7th February 1997, the police started

7 to question me. I refused to answer the questions and

8 requested my solicitor, Rosemary Nelson. I made

9 a statement to my solicitor, Rosemary Nelson, who wrote

10 same out and I handed same to the police. Then Rosemary

11 left me there at the police station, Gough. After

12 Rosemary left, the following incidents occurred.

13 "The police, namely [blank] ..."

14 I think it is:

15 "... another grey-haired police -- I would know

16 these faces if I saw them again -- started to fire abuse

17 at me in relation to my solicitor, Rosemary Nelson.

18 They said she was a money grabbing bitch, she is only in

19 for the money. She got him off, namely [blank], he is

20 a Provo bastard, suggesting Rosemary Nelson was as bad

21 as [blank], saying she was a Provo solicitor. Told me I

22 would get a lot [I think, or] out a lot sooner if I had

23 not requested Rosemary Nelson, because of her firm. The

24 only people that request Rosemary Nelson are the Provos.

25 They also made fun of the mark on Rosemary's face saying

 

 

33


1 how did that happen? Is that a fucking birthmark? They

2 called her bastard, fucker. You wouldn't be in this

3 place because of the fucking bastard, meaning Rosemary.

4 "Each time I was questioned they seemed more

5 interested in Rosemary Nelson. They stated that [blank]

6 was not too bad, but Rosemary, she was the bastard of

7 the lot. Kept going on to me about Rosemary getting

8 [blank] off. They said we knew [blank] shot Lyness and

9 she knows it too."

10 Dated 27th October 1997.

11 Could we call up on to the right-hand side of the

12 screen, keeping this document on the left, please,

13 RNI-114-111 (displayed). We have a typed version of

14 what I have just read out dated 27th October, signed by

15 you. There is, I think a typo -- I am not sure it is

16 going to matter very much -- in the top line. It says:

17 "On Thursday, 2nd February ..."

18 Not the 7th. But in any event, we have covered with

19 one another this morning the handing over the statement

20 and when the abuse starts.

21 So here we have a statement dated 27th October 1997.

22 I had understood you to be saying that you had gone

23 down, seen her the Monday or the Tuesday and given the

24 statement?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

34


1 Q. That, I think, puts us several months prior

2 to October 1997?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You see the point I am making?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So could you help the Panel and help me, please, with

7 how --

8 A. Why it was --

9 Q. -- you reconcile precisely --

10 A. I was walking away. I made give her more or less

11 a verbal statement, and I was walking very away and she

12 kept on ringing me and asking me to come in and make it

13 a formal statement.

14 Q. So perhaps I can help you. You went to the office the

15 Monday/Tuesday after you were released?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You told her about what had been said?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. She was upset. I thought you had agreed with me when

20 I suggested you made a statement then?

21 A. I could have, I can't remember. But I remember she said

22 would you make a complaint on my behalf, and I said aye.

23 And then after about a week or something, a lot of

24 weeks, went away because afterwards I went away to work.

25 Q. But in any event, I think it is right to say, and I hope

 

 

35


1 fair to you, that it seems from what information we

2 have --

3 A. Aye, that the statement --

4 Q. -- that you signed the statement and it is dated several

5 months later?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that fair?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But you can't remember whether something was written

10 down prior to this?

11 A. No.

12 Q. If we could just call up paragraphs 25 and 26 of your

13 statement at RNI-842-016 (displayed), and can we

14 highlight, please, 25 and 26:

15 "She asked me if I would make a complaint. I made

16 my complaint to the complaints authority. I dictated my

17 statement and Rosie wrote it down and she sent it away.

18 A copy of that statement dated 27th October 1997 is

19 attached to this witness statement."

20 Paragraph 26:

21 "After this, I was away in Donegal and Rosie called

22 and asked me if I would come down and give a statement."

23 Just so I understand, are you saying after you

24 dictated the statement, in short order after you are

25 released or after 27th October, you were away in

 

 

36


1 Donegal?

2 A. It was maybe -- I was working in -- before the 27th and

3 then after.

4 Q. Do you mind me asking, were you working in Donegal?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And just for people like me who are ignorant of these

7 matters, how long would it take to drive from Donegal to

8 Mrs Nelson's office?

9 A. Two and a half hours.

10 Q. That is on a good run?

11 A. That's on a good day.

12 Q. And you were working up in Donegal. What days of the

13 week were you working up there?

14 A. Monday to Friday.

15 Q. And returning home Friday night?

16 A. Friday night and away on Sunday.

17 Q. And back on Sunday night?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That sounds very familiar, certainly to me. So you were

20 coming back to see your family?

21 A. Just coming back, aye, see the family and check the

22 house.

23 Q. What I want to ask you is: were you not a little bit

24 surprised, as it were, that time dragged on

25 until October 1997 before this statement was signed and

 

 

37


1 sealed, as it were?

2 A. It was mostly me, because she kept on asking me could

3 I go before that but I never had time. I was so busy.

4 I kept on putting it off.

5 Q. So it was down to you?

6 A. More or less.

7 Q. Was there a possibility of a discussion on the

8 telephone? Was that ever mooted, that you could speak

9 to her, dictate something to her on the telephone and

10 she could send you something to sign it?

11 A. No, she more or less wanted me to go to the office.

12 Q. But in any event the statement was signed and dated

13 27th October?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And we have gone through it together. If we could call

16 up RNI-114-111 again (displayed) -- and I am not

17 intending to take you to them -- there are certain

18 remarks that you have told us about in your statement to

19 the Inquiry that aren't contained in there, but they are

20 a similar theme. So would you be happy with me saying

21 that you may not have made exactly the same comments and

22 statement in this statement as you did to the Inquiry,

23 but they were --

24 A. They were similar, like, probably not the actual words.

25 Q. Yes, for example, I don't think in this statement we

 

 

38


1 have on the screen there is any mention of you having

2 a massive bill to pay?

3 A. No.

4 Q. But you would stand by all those remarks --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- and say that they were said either in the first

7 interview you told us about or subsequent interviews?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Or indeed repeated?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that fair?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you have told us about these remarks, you told us

14 about abuse about her face and her connection with

15 certain people, including Mr Duffy, Colin Duffy?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there any difference in the police's reaction when

18 they were talking about Mrs Nelson and the connection

19 with Mr Duffy, or were they as agitated about all of

20 this together?

21 A. More or less all the same. Agitated together.

22 Q. You have made the statement and signed it

23 in October 1997?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have any recollection what happened after that in

 

 

39


1 relation to it?

2 A. No, none.

3 Q. Again, let me try and help you. Could we call up,

4 please, RNI-202-1299 (displayed). This is a letter --

5 do you recognise that heading paper, Mrs Nelson's

6 office?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You have seen those before?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The real reason why the letter was sent doesn't concern

11 us, but could we highlight the middle third paragraph,

12 please. We can see:

13 "Perhaps you would arrange to have an alternative

14 date for next month. In the interim, I enclose copy

15 statement made by you."

16 Yes? Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if we could just get rid of the highlight, we have

19 19th November 1997.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So a couple of months, or a month-ish later, you can see

22 that Mrs Nelson sends this statement into the Complaints

23 and Discipline Department?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Just excuse me for a moment. (Pause)

 

 

40


1 So this is sent in. Did you know that she was going

2 to do this? Had you had a discussion with her

3 specifically?

4 A. No.

5 Q. But again, just so we are clear, you were happy,

6 presumably, for her to do whatever she saw fit with your

7 statement because the purpose you had given it for was

8 making a complaint?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So if someone had come up to you and said do you know

11 Mrs Nelson had sent this statement off, you would have

12 said, "Quite right too, that is why I gave it"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you aware that the Complaints and Discipline

15 officer, P146, was trying to get in touch with you to

16 try and investigate the complaint or the content of your

17 statement?

18 A. No.

19 Q. If we could call up, please, RNI-202-126 (displayed),

20 this is a letter that you won't have seen. It is from

21 the Complaints and Discipline officer, P146, to the

22 chief executive of the Independent Commission for Police

23 Complaints. It is dated 28th November. On its own it

24 is not particularly interesting, but I am going to show

25 you a document next that hopefully explains it.

 

 

41


1 You can see that the investigation of this case

2 is being supervised by Miss McNally and there is mention

3 of copies of documents, including:

4 "Faxed letter to Rosemary Nelson, solicitor,

5 re interview of witness [that is you] dated

6 28th November."

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could we call up RNI-202-130 (displayed). We can see

10 4th December, a letter to Mrs Nelson from P146, and

11 highlight the first paragraph:

12 "I refer to ongoing correspondence on this matter

13 and to my letter of 28th November 1997 inviting you to

14 attend for interview on 4th December 1997.

15 "On 2nd December 1997 at 3.30 pm our office received

16 a telephone call from your secretary reference this

17 interview. She indicated that due to understaffing you

18 did not wish your witness to be interviewed until after

19 the Christmas holidays."

20 So that doesn't seem to be anything to do with you

21 being away. Did you know anything about that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. We are coming just to the pre-Christmas period?

24 A. I knew nothing about it.

25 Q. You knew nothing about that at all. If you had known

 

 

42


1 about it, being honest today, would you have come back

2 or would you have said; "Look, I am just too busy

3 working"?

4 A. I probably would have said I was too busy.

5 Q. So in any event, you say you didn't know anything about

6 this. Even if you had, you probably wouldn't have made

7 the effort to come back. You did not, for either

8 reason, cooperate with the initial Complaints and

9 Discipline investigation?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Could we call up RNI-223-047, please (displayed). I

12 don't want to confuse you, but just to assist you, there

13 was a change in gear and change in responsibility for

14 investigating your complaint that switched from the

15 Complaints and Discipline Department of the Royal Ulster

16 Constabulary to, as you can see in the top right-hand

17 corner, the Metropolitan Police and there was

18 a gentleman -- you can just make it out, left-hand

19 corner -- Mr Mulvihill?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Am I telling you something you know here?

22 A. Yes, I got one of them letters.

23 Q. Right. Just excuse me. (Pause)

24 So this is a letter dated 20th August?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

43


1 Q. And if we could highlight, please, the third paragraph,

2 we can see:

3 "I am keen to pursue my investigation quickly, and

4 in consultation with the ICPC have provisionally made

5 arrangements to use their premises."

6 It goes on:

7 "... towards the end of September 1998. It would

8 greatly assist the investigation if I could see you

9 in September at those premises to discuss the complaint

10 in detail. It would help matters if either you or your

11 solicitor can confirm whether these arrangements would

12 be suitable."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recollect receiving this letter?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You do. And in fact you did receive other letters.

18 Could we call up RNI-223-096 (displayed). I'll just go

19 through these quickly, if I may.

20 This is 15th September, and he refers to the

21 original letter. And in the middle paragraph we can see

22 that an arrangement is made for precise details for me

23 to take a statement next week, 21st/22nd September.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes?

 

 

44


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. RNI-223-143 (displayed). We are moving into September,

3 and in the first paragraph there is reference to that

4 meeting in September:

5 "It seems you were unable to attend on either of

6 those two dates, but you would be able to attend on

7 6th October."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could we call up RNI-223-1281 (displayed) and if we

12 highlight the second paragraph, please, we can see that

13 you say:

14 "In consultation with Mrs Nelson's office, it was

15 agreed to see you at 2 pm on Friday, 6th November."

16 Yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And we can see that this is a file note dated

19 26th October. So if you will forgive me for saying so,

20 it seems that you were quite a hard man to pin down?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that fair?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And again, would you say that was because of your

25 absence in Donegal working?

 

 

45


1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. But persistence by Mr Mulvihill seems to have paid off,

3 because you did in fact attend for a meeting with him?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you, when you attended -- or had you appreciated

6 that this was an independent person, if I can call him

7 that? I mean by that that he wasn't a member of the

8 Royal Ulster Constabulary?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You knew that?

11 A. I knew he was in that department of the police.

12 Q. Did that have any effect on your decision to eventually

13 cooperate?

14 A. No, I just -- it didn't stop me from cooperating.

15 Q. I am sorry?

16 A. It didn't annoy me.

17 Q. What I am driving at is we have got RUC officer

18 Complaints and Discipline. You are away, nothing

19 happens?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then we have Commander Mulvihill, Metropolitan Police

22 officer and eventually you do go along. Did the fact

23 that he was not from the Royal Ulster Constabulary weigh

24 on your mind at all or was it just that you were

25 actually able at this time, November 1998, to attend?

 

 

46


1 A. More or less able to go and see him.

2 Q. Could we call up RNI-224-014, please (displayed). This

3 is the statement that you gave to Mr Mulvihill; you see

4 your name and the date?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I don't intend to read it all, but could we, please, go

7 forward to RNI-224-016 (displayed). Now, I am going to

8 just read, I am afraid, a fair bit of this to you, so

9 could you just bear with me.

10 Can we count down seven lines and highlight to the

11 bottom of the page. The third line down:

12 "I was interviewed by pairs of officers, but the

13 pairs would not always be the same. Some officers were

14 not always interviewing with the same partner. I would

15 describe the six officers as follows ..."

16 You go on to describe a number of officers there,

17 and if we look at 1:

18 "Blond-haired, in his 40s/50, very stout build,

19 clean shaven, about five feet 10 to six foot.

20 "2. Had a grey beard, in his 40s to 50s, about six

21 foot, medium build."

22 Yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If we look down the page to where there is a cipher on

25 the left-hand side, if we look along to the end of that

 

 

47


1 line:

2 "I remember the first two officers, 1 and 2, I have

3 described the best as they were the most aggressive

4 during the interviews."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could we turn over the page to RNI-224-017 (displayed).

7 Thank you:

8 "I had a consultation with Rosemary Nelson, my

9 solicitor, during which time I made a statement which

10 she wrote down. I handed this statement to the police

11 officers during an interview that afternoon. During the

12 course of the interviews over the following days

13 a number of comments were made. I can't remember who

14 said what or when exactly was said, but I consider them

15 abusive to both myself and Rosemary Nelson. The remarks

16 regarding me included that I was a bastard, a Fenian

17 fucker who was going down for a long time and that I

18 would be going away for good, never to be out again or

19 see my child again. They may have said more but I can't

20 remember.

21 "With regards to Rosemary Nelson, they said that she

22 was a money grabber, more or less said that she was

23 a Provo, that I would have been out a couple of days ago

24 if it hadn't been for her, that it was only for her that

25 the bastard Duffy got off. They also made personal

 

 

48


1 comments about Rosemary Nelson's birthmark on her face.

2 They said it was good enough for her, the bastard."

3 Yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You can follow that with me. Now, if we can just get

6 rid of the highlight, please, and highlight the bottom

7 half of that page. Thank you very much. If we look six

8 lines down from the top:

9 "On the following Monday or Tuesday, I saw

10 Rosemary Nelson at her office and told her what had

11 happened and the comments that had been made."

12 Then you say:

13 "I more or less left the matter with her.

14 "In October 1997, Rosemary Nelson asked me if I

15 would make a statement regarding the comments that had

16 been made during my detention."

17 Yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And just to ask you this: was this the only time you had

20 been at Gough Barracks?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were released without charge on this occasion?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So we can see there that you did in fact eventually

25 cooperate and give a statement to Mr Mulvihill?

 

 

49


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. By this time -- again, being frank with me, if I can ask

3 you -- had time healed the wounds, as it were, or were

4 you still upset about this?

5 A. I can't remember, to tell you the truth.

6 Q. Sorry?

7 A. I can't remember. I probably was still annoyed about

8 it. I can't tell you 100 per cent.

9 Q. Because if we can call up RNI-223-362 (displayed), we

10 see another letter dated 31st January 2000, and that is

11 again from Mr Mulvihill. I won't read it out, but the

12 effect of it is to tell you that there would be no

13 prosecution against any police officer but the ICPC will

14 now consider the disciplinary aspects of the case.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So no joy?

17 A. No joy, no.

18 Q. What was your feeling and reaction in January 2000 when

19 you received that letter?

20 A. I was annoyed but I knew it would probably come out that

21 way. I had a good idea that they wouldn't do anything

22 about it.

23 Q. When you say "they", what do you mean?

24 A. The police, the security forces.

25 Q. But obviously you appreciate that this was a non-RUC

 

 

50


1 officer?

2 A. I know, but a good idea there would be nothing personal.

3 Q. That may still be your opinion, but I just wanted you to

4 be clear: you are talking about police generally?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There is obviously another alternative, as it were, to

9 the situation that you describe to us at Gough Barracks

10 and I hope you will bear with me while I explain this to

11 you: That is that in fact none of these things were

12 ever said to you about either yourself or about

13 Rosemary Nelson in particular, that in fact it never

14 happened. And you will understand why I am asking --

15 A. I can understand, but --

16 Q. -- and I am going to give you your opportunity now to

17 offer to the Panel and the Inquiry your reaction to any

18 suggestion that these were in fact fabricated

19 allegations.

20 A. No, they aren't. Whatever I said in that statement is

21 the truth.

22 Q. It would not be right to suggest that you had any axe to

23 grind with the police?

24 A. No, no axe at all. I wouldn't put myself through this

25 thing today if I was telling lies.

 

 

51


1 Q. Had you discussed with any other clients of

2 Rosemary Nelson, or indeed non-clients --

3 A. No.

4 Q. -- remarks that might have been made about her while

5 they, or anyone else for that matter, had been detained

6 by the police?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So, as you sit here today, the allegations you told us

9 about are the only ones that you ever heard about?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you did not decide, when you were arrested and

12 interviewed by the police, that in order to discredit

13 the police you would make things up about what had been

14 said to you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. At this stage, I am not going to ask you any more

17 questions, I hope, but I would like to give you the

18 opportunity to tell the Panel and the Inquiry anything

19 that you feel is relevant that you and I haven't

20 discussed over the last hour or so. This is your

21 opportunity to say anything.

22 A. Whatever is in the statement is the truth.

23 Q. And just so we are clear about this -- I am sorry, being

24 picky -- there are a number of statements?

25 A. I know, but whatever -- whatever is said in them, then

 

 

52


1 that statement is the truth.

2 Q. Are you referring to all the statements?

3 A. I probably changed them through the years, like. Like,

4 it has been over near 11 years now. I mean, you can't

5 remember everything consistently. I am bound to have

6 made mistakes, you know, but everything that is said is

7 the truth.

8 Q. I understand what you are saying, thank you. Thank you

9 very much indeed.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: You are wisely hesitant, Mr Donaldson. What

11 do you want to say?

12 MR DONALDSON: Sir, I would like a few minutes to speak to

13 my colleague about some questions I would like to

14 consider with him, by Mr Savill.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. I am going to ask you to just leave

16 the chamber for a few minutes and if you would be good

17 enough to stay in the building, it may be you will be

18 asked to come back and asked one or two more questions,

19 maybe not.

20 A. Right.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr [name redaxted], before the witness leaves,

22 would you please confirm that all the cameras have been

23 switched off? Mr [name redacted], can you hear me?

24 MR [name redacted]: Yes, they are, sir.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Before the witness leaves, would you please

 

 

53


1 confirm that all the cameras have been switched off?

2 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, they have.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: All the cameras are now switched off, are

4 they?

5 MR [name redacted]: Yes.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Please escort the witness out.

7 We will have a quarter of an hour's adjournment to

8 give the stenographer a break, and hopefully you will be

9 able to conclude all your business within that time with

10 Mr Savill, Mr Donaldson. I will say we will come back

11 at 20 to 12.

12 (11.24 am)

13 (Short break)

14 (11.42 am)

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Currans, may we go through the checklist

16 with you, please, before the witness comes in. Is the

17 public area screen fully in place, locked and the key

18 secured?

19 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the fire doors on either side of the

21 screen closed?

22 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Are the technical support screens in place

24 and securely fastened?

25 MR CURRANS: Yes, sir.

 

 

54


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Is anyone other than Inquiry personnel and

2 participants' legal representatives seated in the body

3 of this chamber?

4 MR CURRANS: No, sir.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr [name redacted], can you confirm, please, that

6 the two witness cameras have been switched off and

7 shrouded?

8 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, they have.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. All the other cameras have been

10 switched off?

11 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, they have been switched off.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Bring the witness in, please.

13 The cameras on the Panel, Inquiry personnel and the

14 Full Participants' legal representatives may now be

15 switched back on. Thank you.

16 Yes, Mr Savill.

17 MR SAVILL: Famous last words, I am afraid. There are one

18 or two more questions I need to ask you.

19 Could we call up, please, RNI-203-007.500

20 (displayed) and on the same screen -- call that up on

21 the left-hand side, please -- and on the right-hand

22 side, RNI-114-111 (displayed).

23 You have already told us -- and I think I, in fact,

24 read it to you -- from your statement to this Inquiry

25 that you went to see Mrs Nelson on the Monday or the

 

 

55


1 Tuesday and she was quite upset about the things that

2 had been said; yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And she asked you if you would make a complaint?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What I want to be just clear about are these dates. On

7 the left-hand side you can see a handwritten statement.

8 Without being seen as giving evidence, we have already

9 seen the statement she wrote down from you in custody.

10 This handwriting doesn't seem very similar to that. Can

11 you recall whose writing this is?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You can't?

14 A. I couldn't tell you.

15 Q. And you can see the date at the bottom of both documents

16 is 27th October?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you certain that when you went to see Mrs Nelson on

19 the Monday or the Tuesday you did tell her what had

20 happened at Gough Barracks?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You are certain of that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Because what I would like to suggest to you is that if

25 you look at these dates, they say the statements were

 

 

56


1 made some considerable time later. Might it not be the

2 case that in fact the first time you raised these

3 allegations was in fact in October and not the week

4 after your release?

5 A. No, I told her after I was released.

6 Q. So can you explain why these statements are dated

7 27th October and not the day that you went to see her?

8 A. No, I can't explain.

9 Q. Can you recall whether in fact a note was made of your

10 conversation with her?

11 A. No, I can't -- I couldn't tell.

12 Q. So it might --

13 A. There could have been a note, I don't know, I can't

14 remember.

15 Q. All you can remember is that you told Mrs Nelson what

16 had happened?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How this note, handwritten, and then a typed copy came

19 into being, both signed by yourself in October, you

20 can't explain that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you. The second matter, if we could call up,

23 please, RNI-842-017 (displayed). This is your

24 statement. Could we highlight, please, the first three

25 lines of paragraph 30:

 

 

57


1 "The word was that Rosemary had been set up. The

2 cops or someone in the security forces had set her up to

3 get murdered. As they say, even a blind man would have

4 known. The police hated her with a passion because she

5 used the law and she used it to the first degree. They

6 couldn't cope with this, so they set her up."

7 That is your statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What I want to ask you is do you have any specific

10 information upon which you base that? You are shaking

11 your head?

12 A. I have no information. It is just what I thought

13 myself.

14 Q. It is just your opinion?

15 A. Yes, personal opinion.

16 Q. And indeed no doubt formed in part by that which others

17 may have been saying, other people you knew in the area

18 at the time; is that right?

19 A. Something -- yes.

20 Q. What I am saying is it wasn't just your opinion?

21 A. No, other people would have thought the same too.

22 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. I don't know, sir, if the

23 Panel have any questions arising out of that?

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming to give evidence before

25 us.

 

 

58


1 Before the witness leaves, Mr [name redacted], would

2 you please confirm that all the cameras have been switched

3 off?

4 MR [name redacted]: Yes, sir, the cameras have been switched off.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Would you, please, escort the

6 witness out.

7 (Witness leaves)

8 We shall adjourn until about five past 12 when the

9 next witness will be called.

10 (11.50 am)

11 (Short adjournment)

12 (12.10 pm)

13 MR COLM TOMAN (affirmed)

14 Questions by MR SAVILL

15 MR SAVILL: Could you give us your full name, please.

16 A. Colm Toman.

17 Q. I believe it is right that you have given a statement to

18 this Inquiry, which I'm going to ask to be put up;

19 RNI-821-066, please (displayed). You see your name

20 there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It is the first page, dated 2nd June this year. Could

23 we call up, please, the last page, at RNI-81-076

24 (displayed). You can see your signature and the date at

25 the bottom there?

 

 

59


1 A. Yes, that's true, yes.

2 Q. Right. I am going to be asking you some questions about

3 1997, Mr Toman, using some documents that will appear on

4 the screen. Quite a long time ago, so if you don't

5 remember what happened, please do not guess.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were arrested by the police, I believe, and taken

8 where?

9 A. Gough Barracks.

10 Q. Were you taken straight there?

11 A. Yes, I was, yes.

12 Q. Could we call up RNI-205-223 (displayed). We can see on

13 the left-hand side that you were arrested on

14 11th February 1997?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Thank you. Could we get rid of the highlight. We can

17 see your name and address on the right-hand side, and

18 without highlighting it, down the right-hand column we

19 can see two things: First of all, your refusal to sign

20 the custody record. Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Why was that?

23 A. I just refused to sign it.

24 Q. I know that.

25 A. I just didn't want to do it.

 

 

60


1 Q. Right. Why didn't you want to do it?

2 A. I just didn't want to put my name to anything.

3 Q. Why was that?

4 A. In case they fixed it or tried to use it.

5 Q. But this was only a signature about various standard

6 requests in the custody record?

7 A. I just didn't feel the need to do it.

8 Q. Right. Towards the bottom of the right-hand column, we

9 can see that you wanted a solicitor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Rosemary Nelson?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in fact, there you even refuse to sign that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As far as Mrs Nelson is concerned, why, can you tell us,

16 please, at this stage in 1997 did you ask for her as

17 opposed to any other solicitor?

18 A. Just previous things that were happening in the past,

19 harassment by the security forces. Just friends of mine

20 were using her as a solicitor and I just thought I would

21 use her. She seemed a good solicitor.

22 Q. A good solicitor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You say other matters in the past. I think you used the

25 word "harassment". Were other matters in the past

 

 

61


1 including criminal related matters for which you were

2 arrested?

3 A. For terrorism.

4 Q. Well, criminal matters --

5 A. Just harassment by the secures forces, like.

6 Q. You will forgive me, one man's view of harassment is not

7 the same as another. You may say you were harassed,

8 another might say you were arrested?

9 A. Any time I went for a walk around the area, out in your

10 own street, like, you were getting stopped and tormented

11 by them, like.

12 Q. What I am saying is had you used her to come and advise

13 you whilst you were being detained in the past?

14 A. No, that was my first time being arrested.

15 Q. That was your first time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As a solicitor, you had a good opinion of her from your

18 own experience and from what others had said to you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that a fair way of putting it?

21 A. It is.

22 Q. Could we call up, please, RNI-821-068 (displayed), the

23 top paragraph. Can we highlight that, please. You say:

24 "I'm not sure why I first went to her. I think she

25 may have been mentioned as a good solicitor. That was

 

 

62


1 good enough for me. However, I got to know her and she

2 was good. Sharon Keeley, who worked with her, was good

3 as well."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You saw Mrs Nelson during this period of your detention

6 in 1997?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I am going to come to the statement later, but in

9 a statement to the CAJ you suggest that you saw

10 Mrs Nelson twice a day. I just want to ask you: might

11 it be right that in fact it might not have been that

12 regular?

13 A. I can't really remember, like, about it, like.

14 Q. So you may have seen her once a day?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You may have seen her twice a day, you might not have

17 seen her?

18 A. Yes. That was along time ago, like.

19 Q. Certainly, but you did see her on more than one occasion

20 whilst you were being detained?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And as far as you were concerned, you requested to see

23 her?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To receive advice, I presume. Is that right?

 

 

63


1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Now, when you were in custody, you were interviewed --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- on a number of occasions. Would you accept from me

5 if I told you that it was 20?

6 A. I can't remember, like.

7 Q. But does that sound about right?

8 A. If you say so, like. I just can't remember, like.

9 Q. Put it like this: you weren't interviewed once?

10 A. No, definitely.

11 Q. You were interviewed a number of times?

12 A. A number of times, yes.

13 Q. And you were interviewed, I think, by pairs of police

14 officers?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Two at a time?

17 A. Sometimes there was more than that there in the room,

18 like. So two sitting at the table and another two

19 standing at the door to intimidate you.

20 Q. So you say that sometimes there were more than two?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But more usually than not it was a pair. Is that right?

23 A. Aye, that would be right, like.

24 Q. I am sorry?

25 A. Yes, that would be right.

 

 

64


1 Q. That would be right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if we could call up RNI-205-236 (displayed), these

4 aren't the only officers, but we can see there some

5 ciphered numbers involved in interviews with you. Do

6 you see that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. As I have already shown you, looking at your custody

9 record, you were arrested on 11th February and you came

10 to be released on the 14th, three days later?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I am just trying to bracket the time: three days in

13 custody, the 11th to the 14th?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When in that period do you say that remarks were made

16 concerning Mrs Nelson?

17 A. Yes, that's true, like.

18 Q. My fault. When in that period do you say that they were

19 first --

20 A. Oh, over the period of detention in Gough Barracks.

21 Q. I'm sorry?

22 A. In the period of the time I was detained in it, like.

23 Numerous interviews, like, most of them.

24 Q. I'm trying to help with the questions I ask, so could

25 you help by just listening to the question.

 

 

65


1 The question I'm asking you now is when, during that

2 period, were remarks first made about Mrs Nelson?

3 A. When I was -- it wasn't the first interview. It would

4 have been -- I think it was the second day, going into

5 the second day.

6 Q. So the 12th, that would be?

7 A. Yes. They started about Rosemary being a Provo and

8 stuff like that there, like.

9 Q. So it was the second day?

10 A. Roughly the second, I think so.

11 Q. Roughly?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what remarks can you remember were made this first

14 time?

15 A. Says that she was a Provo, that I was being an

16 individual where I was just number five down on the

17 estate. That she was a Provo, had us well trained, that

18 she was a fire bomber and that's how the injuries became

19 on her face.

20 Q. How the injuries, did you say?

21 A. Yes, and that she was beat by the ugly stick.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. They just says that she was a senior Provo in the area

24 and she had us well trained.

25 Q. So these sound like abusive remarks?

 

 

66


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were any remarks made --

3 A. On her life? Yes. There was some. There was one

4 interview -- I think they were getting a wee bit

5 frustrated. They says, like, we will take you out, he

6 says, we'll take your solicitor out. He says Rosemary

7 will not get you off for this. He says we will have you

8 taken out any time, he says, people you work with have

9 Loyalist links and we will take you out. You will end

10 up like your uncle, in the graveyard.

11 Q. I am going to come to some descriptions in due course,

12 Mr Toman.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I am going to come to some descriptions in due course,

15 but would I be right in saying that you are unable to

16 tell us, either by reference to a date or an event,

17 which interviews these remarks were made in?

18 A. I can't really remember.

19 Q. And are you -- again, without using descriptions -- able

20 to tell us how many different police officers you say

21 were involved in making these remarks?

22 A. Numerous ones, like. I just can't really -- it has just

23 been a long time, like. It's been a long time from

24 reading them, like.

25 Q. You will get used to it, I am afraid. I am going to be

 

 

67


1 difficult again: Numerous? Two? 10? Six? What are

2 we talking about?

3 A. Six times. Maybe more, like.

4 Q. I am talking about numbers of officers.

5 A. Sorry, I just can't remember, like.

6 Q. You can't remember how many officers were involved? But

7 helpfully you tried to tell me just then the number of

8 occasions -- and when we say occasions, are we talking

9 about different interviews?

10 A. Just different times during one interview, like, it

11 would be mentioned.

12 Q. What I am asking you is how many different interviews

13 were these remarks made at, or were they all of the

14 interviews?

15 A. Nearly all of them, like, coming up to the last couple

16 of days.

17 Q. You have said the second or third day they started?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You will remember that if we can look at your statement

20 to the Inquiry, please, at RNI-821-070 (displayed), you

21 told the person taking the statement -- and highlight

22 paragraph 21. We can have a look at what you said. So

23 I am going to read this out, okay?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. "From the second or third day onwards, they also made

 

 

68


1 a number of other comments about Rosemary Nelson. They

2 were mostly made by the black-haired fellow referred to

3 in paragraph 11 above, but the grey-haired officer

4 referred to in the same paragraph made the same sort of

5 comments. They said that she had been part of an active

6 service unit which had been caught when a fire bomb had

7 exploded prematurely causing the scarring on her face.

8 They also said that she had been beaten with the ugly

9 stick and that she was Colin Duffy's right-hand woman.

10 They said they would have her sorted out and that there

11 would be no fucking Rosemary Nelson, Provo solicitor,

12 running about. They said she would not be helping me

13 this time. They said they would lock me up and throw

14 away the key.

15 "They were shouting at me constantly. One of them,

16 I can't remember which one exactly, said we will take

17 her out. He also threatened my life and the lives of my

18 parents and brother. They said it wouldn't be hard to

19 take yous out. They said I would be spending time with

20 my uncle in St Colm's, the local graveyard. I believed

21 them, as it had happened before."

22 So this is your statement to the Inquiry and these

23 are the things that you say were said?

24 A. They were said like that.

25 Q. Nasty, abusive remarks and threats to her life; yes?

 

 

69


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you accept from me, quite memorable?

3 A. The things I got there would stick in your head, like.

4 Q. That is what I am asking you. Could we just go to the

5 previous page of your statement, please, RNI-821-071

6 (displayed). At the bottom, highlighting paragraph 20,

7 we can see here that you say:

8 "Then they brought in the rocket and put it in front

9 of me."

10 Because you had been arrested in relation to an

11 attack involving a rocket?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "They called it a prick. They asked me how I had done

14 it and tried to get me to show them how to use it. I

15 had no idea."

16 A. No.

17 Q. Having read that, could we call up on the same screen,

18 right-hand, RNI-205-305 (displayed). We have got an

19 interview here, 12th February, 14.41. PC P160 and, I

20 think, DC [redacted] interview you. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we just go forward, please, on the right-hand side

23 to RNI-205-307 (displayed). Could we highlight the

24 paragraph beneath "P135". You are asked what that is:

25 "Answer: It is a home-made rocket launcher."

 

 

70


1 Then it is put:

2 "You were involved in a rocket attack last Thursday.

3 You should know what it is."

4 So this is the interview in which you were shown

5 this device?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Could we turn the page on the left-hand side of the

8 screen, you say:

9 "They put the rocket in front of me."

10 We go over and we can see at the top there the

11 allegations that were put to you; yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were arrested on the 11th. This interview I have

14 shown you was on the 12th?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Paragraph 21 says:

17 "From the second or third day onwards ..."

18 So I am just trying to help you recollect: do you

19 recollect that the abuse started in this interview when

20 they showed you the device, or do you think it was after

21 that?

22 A. I think it was after that.

23 Q. After that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What I want to ask you about your interviews is that you

 

 

71


1 were given the opportunity to read through the notes of

2 the interviews?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And asked if you wanted to sign them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you said, "No, thank you"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Or words to that effect. Why did you not attempt at

9 least to have inserted into the interview record or at

10 the end of it that abuse and those threats which you say

11 had been made?

12 A. I just didn't think -- I just didn't do it, like,

13 I refused to.

14 Q. I'm sorry?

15 A. I just didn't want to do it. I just didn't want to put

16 my name to anything.

17 Q. You didn't want to put your name to anything, but would

18 you accept from me that you could -- it was an

19 opportunity at least to --

20 A. It's just seeing what's happened in the past, like.

21 I just didn't want to do it.

22 Q. And as regards those most responsible for the remarks,

23 you describe in paragraph 21 at the top, second line --

24 if we could highlight that paragraph, 21, we can see at

25 least they were mostly made by the black-haired fellow.

 

 

72


1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "But the grey-haired officer referred to in the same

4 paragraph made the same sort of comments"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could we go back to the left-hand side of the screen,

7 RNI-821-068 (displayed). If we could highlight

8 paragraph 11, we can see what you have to say about the

9 interviews:

10 "The interviews took place during the day, maybe

11 three or four per day. I have been asked what I can

12 recall about the officers who interviewed me. The

13 interviews were always done by CID officers."

14 Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Because I think we looked previously at a page of your

17 custody record which had a member of the police -- you

18 are nodding -- other than the CID present. So is it

19 possible that there were, or there was, someone other

20 than CID who came to interview you?

21 A. I'm not too sure, like.

22 Q. But as far as you are concerned, they were CID?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You say:

25 "However, they would not give their identity."

 

 

73


1 A. No.

2 Q. Did they not introduce themselves at the beginning of

3 interviews?

4 A. I think they might have done it once, but they never

5 done it really every interview, like. Some interviews

6 they didn't even put the tapes in, or whatever they were

7 doing, like, they were threatening you and talking to

8 you, like, before they even wrote anything down, like.

9 Q. Just taking this apart, what you have just said -- "put

10 the tapes in" -- there were no audio recordings made?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So what do you mean "put the tapes in"?

13 A. I thought the custody sergeant told me that it was being

14 recorded, that there would have been tapes made.

15 Q. That was video-recorded.

16 A. There was no -- I don't know what at the time, like.

17 I'd never been in the police before.

18 Q. Let's just be careful. Do you accept that the

19 interviews were not audio recorded?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you say that you knew they were being video-recorded?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were they being video-recorded?

24 A. I don't know, like, if they were or not. I'm not too

25 sure, like.

 

 

74


1 Q. Was there not a camera?

2 A. I think there was but, like, they could tell me there

3 were times that they will turn it off, you know.

4 Q. But if we just jump ahead to RNI-821-068 (displayed), we

5 can see paragraph 14 -- if we can highlight that,

6 please:

7 "I could tell that the CCTV which was meant to be

8 monitoring the interviews was not on, because there was

9 no red light on the camera."

10 A. I think that was the second or third day, like, that it

11 wasn't on, like. That is when I think the threats all

12 began.

13 Q. Was that when you noticed there was no red light?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "In addition, the door to the interview room was left

16 open and I could see the sergeant who was meant to be

17 watching the screens walking past."

18 A. Yes, walking up and down.

19 Q. How did you know, if you will forgive me for asking, how

20 that the man who walked past was meant to be watching

21 the screens?

22 A. Because when you're getting taken back to your cell you

23 could see the monitor room, the door was open and he was

24 the one that was standing there, sitting at the table,

25 like.

 

 

75


1 Q. So the same man sat watching the screens at one point

2 was the same man --

3 A. That was walking past.

4 Q. You are sure it was a sergeant?

5 A. I think so.

6 Q. Might he have been of a higher rank?

7 A. He may have been all right. They were bringing you down

8 to the interview room from your cell. You walked past,

9 the door was lying open and he was sitting behind the

10 monitors, and I -- in the interview room when they had

11 the door open he walked past numerous times.

12 Q. We are being diverted a little bit by the video. Could

13 we go back to page RNI-821-068 with paragraph 11

14 highlighted, please. And we are just looking at these

15 descriptions and you say you:

16 "... only got to know them over time by talking to

17 other people who'd been interviewed by them and seen

18 them at court. One was a black-haired fellow whose name

19 was [blank]. He was in his 30s, skinny and about five

20 foot seven. Another had grey hair and a grey beard. He

21 was well into his 40s, five foot eight or five foot nine

22 and heavily built."

23 Those are the descriptions, yes?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. That I believe that you have already given in another

 

 

76


1 part of your statement that we have looked at?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yes? And you have referred back, I think, to

4 paragraph 11. And in fact that is paragraph 21, please,

5 at RNI-821-070 (displayed). Just highlight

6 paragraph 21:

7 "Mostly made by the black-haired fellow referred to

8 in paragraph 11."

9 Yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So it is the same two that you are talking about?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So the abuse starts on the second or third day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It goes on into various different interviews, different

16 officers, you say?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was there one particular other occasion that you

19 remember when specific threats or abuse were made?

20 A. I can't remember, like.

21 Q. I will try and help you. Could we go to RNI-821-071

22 (displayed) and highlight paragraph 24, please:

23 "I remember that one of the interviews took place

24 very late at night at 1 am. It should not have been

25 allowed to take place because it was so late. I think

 

 

77


1 there are rules against that sort of thing. They said

2 that a soldier had been killed called Stephen Restorick

3 in south Armagh. The officer with black hair roared at

4 me. He said that we will fucking finish her off and

5 there will be no more Rosie the Provo. He said we will

6 fucking kill her, a Provo like the rest of you."

7 A. Yes, that happened. That happened. I was taken out of

8 my cell there --

9 Q. I'm sorry?

10 A. I was taken out of my cell very late that night and

11 brought down the interview room.

12 Q. I wanted to ask you this: all these comments were made

13 in the interview rooms?

14 A. Yes, they were, yes.

15 Q. And that one seems to be the worst of the lot, on your

16 account?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It was said, as you describe it, by the officer with

19 black hair -- in fact roared at you -- direct threats

20 to Mrs Nelson's life?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So again, pretty nasty and very memorable?

23 A. He pulled his chair right beside me.

24 Q. You say that that was very late at night, at 1 am?

25 A. Yes, it was.

 

 

78


1 Q. Just to be fair to you, are you sure that it was at 1 am

2 or are you saying it was very late at night?

3 A. I think it was 1 am. It was roughly that time, like.

4 Q. Because having looked at the custody record, the last

5 time, or the latest time you were interviewed was at

6 22.49. So 20 to 11 at night.

7 A. It was well after that, like.

8 Q. Because there is no entry in the custody record for you

9 being interviewed at 1 am?

10 A. It happened. It definitely happened, like, it was the

11 worst, like.

12 Q. Hold on. What I am trying to ask you: first of all, you

13 say it happened?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I understand that, but you are saying it happened at one

16 in the morning?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I am suggesting to you that there is no entry on the

19 custody record, so either you are wrong, which may be

20 the case, or this interview was never entered on the

21 custody record?

22 A. It was just never entered into the custody record.

23 Q. So it was definitely 1 am?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It was the officer with the black hair. Can you

 

 

79


1 remember who else was there? Was it the one you

2 described?

3 A. I think it was the oldest type one. He was very thick,

4 he had a drop of the smell of alcohol on him.

5 Q. The grey-haired officer that you have talked about?

6 A. Yes, you could smell the alcohol.

7 Q. So this was an interview that was never entered on the

8 custody record, which contained the worst threat of the

9 lot; yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was your reaction to this particular threat to

12 Mrs Nelson's safety?

13 A. Quite a bit of shock, like. I thought that they are

14 going to do it, like. They were going to -- either me

15 or someone that belonged to me, like, was going to get

16 taken out by them.

17 Q. They were going to what, sorry?

18 A. Be taken out by them.

19 Q. Did you say anything? Did you react?

20 A. I just put my head down on the table.

21 Q. On the other occasions when abuse and threats had been

22 made to Mrs Nelson, did you react?

23 A. I tried to get off the chair and they told me to sit on

24 the chair. They thumped me.

25 Q. Can we just call up RNI-821-071 (displayed) on the

 

 

80


1 left-hand side -- which we have got, I am sorry. So

2 paragraph 25 highlight. You say this:

3 "Occasionally you felt like losing your rag and

4 trying to fight back."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "However, if I had done so, they would have beaten me to

7 a pulp. At one stage, I did try to get them to shut up

8 and tried to get out of my chair. They said you sit

9 fucking down and then said we will put you down and we

10 will put Rosemary down. None of yous will be running

11 about."

12 A. That's true, yes.

13 Q. So four days in detention, abuse and threats to

14 Mrs Nelson?

15 A. They are getting worse.

16 Q. Described as memorable?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You do not make any comment in the interviews, you don't

19 try and raise that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you tell any of your solicitors, when they come and

22 see you, what is going on?

23 A. I think I told Rosemary.

24 Q. Do you remember when you may have said that to her?

25 A. I think it might have been the third day, I think. I'm

 

 

81


1 not 100 per cent sure.

2 Q. We will come to that in a moment, but when you are

3 released, you are given the opportunity -- and you may,

4 I hope, remember this -- to tell the custody sergeant or

5 whoever it is that releases you that something has been

6 said. You are asked, "Is there anything you would like

7 to complain about?" Do you remember that?

8 A. No, not really.

9 Q. Could we call up RNI-205-017 (displayed). So this is

10 the release part of the custody record, and you can see

11 in the middle you are asked:

12 "... if I have any complaints to make against any

13 police officer whilst detained. Stated no, none

14 at all."

15 So you will anticipate my point to you: you are

16 being released, you are on your way out, why didn't you

17 say at this stage, yes --

18 A. I didn't see the point, like.

19 Q. But would you agree with me that a very good point would

20 have been, as it were, to get it on the record?

21 A. The proof -- what was the proof of telling them, like?

22 They weren't going to write it down or mark it up, like.

23 Sure, they had been told by a higher authority not to --

24 any complaints, just throw it out, like.

25 Q. You are sure that they had been told by who?

 

 

82


1 A. Higher authority that if there was any complaints just

2 to get rid of them, scrap them.

3 Q. What I am suggesting to you, Mr Toman, is that whether

4 that was true or not, your case for a complaint would

5 have been strengthened, would it not, had you registered

6 with the place, whilst you were in custody, your

7 complaint?

8 A. It may be so, like, but I didn't see the point of it.

9 Q. Moving on to Mrs Nelson, you have told us that you think

10 you told her whilst you were in custody --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After you were released, yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you go and see her?

15 A. I did, yes.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. It was maybe a couple of days afterwards, like.

18 Q. What was her reaction?

19 A. Shocked, like. She was you know, like, she was shocked.

20 Q. What had her reaction been when you'd told her in

21 custody?

22 A. I think she was in shock too, like.

23 Q. Because these were serious --

24 A. Yes, allegations.

25 Q. -- allegations weren't they?

 

 

83


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You told her everything, I presume?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. The abuse, the threats, the black-haired police officer

5 roaring at you?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. You didn't leave anything out?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And she was ... how would you say?

10 A. She was shocked. Just -- I don't know what way you'd

11 describe it, like.

12 Q. And were you left with the impression that she wanted to

13 or was going to take any further action?

14 A. Yes. With her being a solicitor I think she would have

15 taken action. She would have wanted something done

16 about it, like.

17 Q. But did she say to you, "Right, we must do something

18 about this and this is what we are going to do"?

19 A. I can't remember, like.

20 Q. You say you went to see her a couple of days after your

21 release?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Why did you go and see her?

24 A. Just over the threats and all, just to make it clear

25 exactly what was said.

 

 

84


1 Q. But was that something that came to your own mind?

2 A. Yes, it did.

3 Q. You thought, "I must go and see her"?

4 Can we call up, please, or rather highlight the last

5 paragraph on this page on the left:

6 "Whilst I was in detention, I told Rosemary

7 everything that had happened as detailed above. She was

8 angry but told me not to worry. After I was released,

9 some of the others who were held at the same time as me

10 told me to go and see Rosemary to make a statement."

11 Yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. We are going to come to this statement in due course.

14 This is a statement that you gave to the CAJ, the typed

15 statement?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. What I want to be clear about is are you saying that you

18 were told by others to go and give the CAJ typed

19 statement but you went off your own bat soon after your

20 release?

21 A. Yes, I went off my own bat.

22 Q. Yes. You, I think, have also told us in your statement

23 to the Inquiry that you were subjected to further

24 comments and threats about Mrs Nelson in July 1997,

25 which is after this --

 

 

85


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- incident; yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you remember what was said then?

5 A. No, not really, no.

6 Q. Do you remember where it was?

7 A. No, I can't really, no.

8 Q. Did you make any complaint about that?

9 A. I think I did. I think -- it was just that many times,

10 like, it happened. Threats and all --

11 Q. I don't want to be difficult about this, but it is not

12 that many times. There is February 1997 and

13 then July 1997 when remarks are made about

14 Rosemary Nelson.

15 A. I think it might have been again -- I'm not 100 per cent

16 sure, like.

17 Q. Let us call up page RNI-821-074 (displayed) and try and

18 help you with this, and highlight paragraph 40:

19 "I was arrested on another occasion before Rosemary

20 was murdered. It concerned a train hijack which took

21 place in Drumcree in July 1997 or July 1998. I was

22 taken to Gough Barracks.

23 "It was the same stuff all over again. They

24 described Rosemary as a fire bomber and that she had

25 been beaten with the ugly stick. This time the

 

 

86


1 interview lasted for a shorter period, only one or two

2 days, and I was aware of what was going to happen so I

3 wasn't as shocked by what was said. I think the police

4 knew that it was pointless talking to me. I think it

5 was possibly the Scots guy who was interviewing me who I

6 refer to in paragraph 12 above. I can't be sure it was

7 him, however.

8 "I mentioned the abusive remarks to Rosemary. She

9 told me not to pay any attention to them. I don't know

10 whether she took any action in connection with any of

11 this."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you stand by the contents of that?

14 A. Yes, I do, yes.

15 Q. And it is right to say, I think, that really you can't

16 remember --

17 A. I can't --

18 Q. -- who said this to you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Which police officers. And you can't, you say, remember

21 whether she took any action in connection with this?

22 A. I'm not sure if she did or not, like.

23 Q. What I am going to ask you is were you surprised, having

24 been to see her after your release in February and then

25 subsequently in July, that there is not any reaction by

 

 

87


1 Mrs Nelson along the lines of, my goodness, this is

2 terrible, something must be done? Were you not

3 surprised by that?

4 A. I didn't know really what to think or just -- I can't

5 really remember, like, what was going on at that time.

6 Q. I think -- and I don't want to put words in your

7 mouth -- that you said there wasn't a massive reaction

8 in relation to the complaints procedure. You don't

9 remember her saying, "This is what we are going to do"?

10 A. No, I can't really, you know, no.

11 Q. But were you not surprised by that?

12 A. Maybe she had her own way of going about it, like.

13 Q. Because if we just look in the paragraph that we have

14 highlighted, you say:

15 "She told me not to pay any attention to them."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember that?

18 A. Not, not really, no, no.

19 Q. Could we call up on to the screen, please, RNI-206-072

20 (displayed). Thank you. Now, this is a statement --

21 you can see your name misspelt, I think, at the top?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If we turn over the page to RNI-206-073 (displayed),

24 there is no signature there, but do you recognise this

25 statement?

 

 

88


1 A. I do, yes.

2 Q. Can we go back to RNI-206-072, please (displayed), do

3 you remember the circumstances in which this statement

4 came to be given? We have touched on them already, I

5 think.

6 A. Not -- I can't remember, like.

7 Q. Do you remember where it was given?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you remember to whom it was given?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you remember why it was given?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Enough questions. Let us, please, have a look at

14 paragraph 26, which is at RNI-821-071 of your statement.

15 (displayed). Highlight that bottom paragraph, please.

16 We have already had a quick look at this, but you say:

17 "After I was released, some of the others who were

18 held at the same time as me told me to go and see

19 Rosemary to make a statement. Been shown a copy of the

20 statement, which is attached ..."

21 And we have got the reference number there:

22 "I haven't seen this before, but reading it, it

23 brings back memories."

24 Obviously that was the time you gave your statement:

25 "I think I went to Rosemary's office a couple of

 

 

89


1 months after I was released. I was interviewed by

2 a young fellow with black hair, a girl may have been

3 with him to. They must have prepared the statement

4 after the interview, but as I have said, I have not seen

5 the statement before. I was not given a copy to sign.

6 I think it may have been a rushed job preparing it, or

7 it may be ..."

8 Could we go over the page, please:

9 "... that there is a page missing. The statement

10 does not give details of all the threats that I heard

11 about Rosemary. These are correctly detailed above."

12 Yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So I don't want to be unfair, but you can't remember the

15 circumstances of giving this?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So I am just helping you by showing you that. And if we

18 could call up, please, on the left-hand side of the

19 screen, RNI-206-069, please (displayed), we have got

20 a statement here from the gentleman that did in fact

21 take the statement, Paul Mageean. And we can see that,

22 as I think we have seen before, he says in the first

23 line:

24 "I was contacted in late February by

25 Rosemary Nelson, solicitor. She informed me she had

 

 

90


1 been threaten via a number of her clients who had been

2 detained in Gough Barracks."

3 Can you read that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And he goes on to say:

6 "I told her we would like to take statements from

7 her clients and we then made arrangements for that to be

8 done. So I subsequently visited her offices and, along

9 with another member of CAJ, we took statements from

10 a number of clients. Two of these clients were [blank],

11 Barry Toman and [you]."

12 So bearing in mind your complete lack of

13 recollection about this, would it be roughly right to

14 say that I was contacted in late February to take

15 statements, so it was round about that time?

16 A. Yes, that would be right.

17 Q. Is that fair enough?

18 A. Yes, that would be, yes.

19 Q. Can you remember what was going to be done with this

20 statement?

21 A. No idea.

22 Q. No idea?

23 A. No idea.

24 Q. But as we have looked at in your statement to the

25 Inquiry a moment ago, you make a comment about its

 

 

91


1 content and you mention it maybe being a rushed job,

2 maybe there is a page missing?

3 A. Yes, missing, yes.

4 Q. Could we just highlight the last three paragraphs on the

5 right-hand side of the screen:

6 "At the first interview, I was asked who my

7 solicitor was. I said Rosemary Nelson. They asked, 'Is

8 Rosemary Nelson really a Provo?' I laughed and said,

9 'Aye, she looks like one, doesn't she' and after this

10 interview I was brought back to my cell at about 11.30."

11 Have you read that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could we turn over the page to RNI-206-070, please, last

14 paragraph (displayed):

15 "I saw Rosemary twice a day. They said she was

16 a friend of the Provos and of Colin Duffy's. They said,

17 'She's not that good, she won't get you off'."

18 A. Yes, I have read that, yes.

19 Q. Now, what I should have done -- and I am sorry, could we

20 just go back to the previous page, RNI-206-069

21 (displayed) -- is just to read that last line:

22 "One was fattish with grey hair and a grey beard."

23 Full stop:

24 "The other ..."

25 Then go over the page to RNI-206-070 (displayed):

 

 

92


1 "... was tall with a bit of a beard and had black

2 hair."

3 So it seems to read through as though there are two

4 pages to the same document.

5 Now, what I want to ask you is why, in this

6 statement given much closer to this series of events in

7 Gough Barracks, there are no mentions at all of the vast

8 majority of the serious allegations you make to us today

9 and in your statement to the Inquiry?

10 A. I just -- I think there is a page missing of that

11 there -- out of that.

12 Q. Well, you haven't signed it?

13 A. No, that is what makes me think there is a page missing,

14 like.

15 Q. Let us explore this. You gave this statement; yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you say they must have prepared this statement after

18 the interview. So can you remember what happened: Was

19 someone writing something down and then you just left,

20 or ...?

21 A. I can't really remember, like. I am just trying to

22 think, there, at the time I gave that statement, like.

23 Q. Do you think that you did tell them about all the nasty

24 abuse and threats that you have told us about today?

25 A. Yes, I would have told them, so I would have, like. But

 

 

93


1 it would have been on paper.

2 Q. So the error is theirs, not yours?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Because you would have told them about all the things:

5 the threats, the ugly stick, Colin Duffy's right-hand

6 man, having her sorted, finishing her off; all those

7 things, you would have told her?

8 A. That would have been in the statement, like.

9 Q. So it is nothing to do with you that they are missed out

10 from this statement?

11 A. I think there is a page missing to that statement.

12 I let my solicitor know that.

13 Q. You have seen what we have just read. I have got the

14 document as it is, I am afraid, but you would agree,

15 wouldn't you, that the way we have read it over the

16 page --

17 A. It is just a rough estimate.

18 Q. Just listen to what I am suggesting, Mr Toman. Reading

19 it, as we have done, from one page to another, it makes

20 sense, doesn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if we look at the top of the first page, please,

23 RNI-206-072 (displayed), we have got your name; yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it starts with your arrest on Tuesday,

 

 

94


1 11th February. It goes down through your detention, and

2 turning over the page to RNI-206-073 (displayed), it

3 stops, so there is nothing written underneath it.

4 So what I am suggesting to you -- and I understand

5 what you are saying-- is that it appears, does it not,

6 that it is unlikely that there is a page missing from

7 the statement?

8 A. Well, there was more than that given, like. If I gave

9 that statement to them, it would have been about the

10 threats, it would have been all that writ down, like.

11 It just seems to be written off roughly.

12 Q. But was this, if you are right, not part of the danger

13 of you not waiting or asking to sign the statement

14 before anyone did anything with it?

15 A. It should have been there, like.

16 Q. Do you understand what I am saying?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You were content to give your version of events?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then leave the office?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Weren't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that that has been proved

25 to be rather dangerous on your version of events,

 

 

95


1 because this doesn't represent, you tell us, what you

2 said?

3 A. What I give them as a statement, like -- I am just

4 trying to remember who it was. It would have been all

5 documentation down, like. I would have told him, like,

6 of the threats and accusations made against her, like.

7 It would have been -- should have been there on paper,

8 like.

9 Q. I want to ask you about some things that happened to you

10 whilst you were being detained. Could we put up on the

11 screen, please, on the left-hand side, RNI-821-068

12 (displayed). I'll go through these as quickly as I can.

13 Paragraph 13:

14 "I was kicked, shouted at, had my ears pulled and

15 had the back of my head slapped by the interviewing

16 officers. He also placed a chair leg on my foot and

17 then sat on the chair. Essentially, I was bullied."

18 If you turn the page, please, to RNI-821-069,

19 paragraph 17 (displayed):

20 "When the police were not getting anywhere, they

21 upped the ante and increased the intimidation and

22 bullying. This was after the time of my detention had

23 been extended. It became far more extreme. I was

24 punched, poked and the chair was used on my foot again.

25 They also tried to throw me down a flight of stairs when

 

 

96


1 I was taken to and from the interview room."

2 Yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Just pausing there, they didn't succeed in throwing you

5 down the stairs?

6 A. No.

7 Q. If we could go to paragraph 15, you can see:

8 "Before the interview, I was allowed to see

9 Rosemary. I told her that they said I'd carried out a

10 rocket attack and what had been happening to me. She

11 would have asked me how I was and I would have told her

12 I was all right. I told her that I hadn't eaten because

13 they had spat in my food, and I remember that

14 Rosemary Nelson brought me Mars Bars to eat."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So looking at all those elements, not only are you

17 saying that there were unpleasant remarks and threats

18 made against Rosemary Nelson, but you were on the

19 receiving end of some pretty rough treatment as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have any injuries?

22 A. No, they just made sure that they didn't mark you.

23 Q. And if we could just look at RNI-205-232 (displayed),

24 the entry at 22.55, we can see:

25 "Supper: tea and sandwiches-taken."

 

 

97


1 I accept it doesn't say "and returned with a clean

2 plate", but there are other entries -- you see what I am

3 driving at here -- that suggest you were taking the

4 food?

5 A. I never ate anything the whole time I was there, like.

6 Q. So did you take it from them but not eat it; is that

7 what you're saying?

8 A. Yes, I would have refused it at the door.

9 Q. Forgive me, but I have to just ask you and explore this

10 with you: there is no mention of any of this nasty

11 treatment to you in the statement that you give to the

12 CAJ that is typed out that we discussed?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So again, coming back to the previous answer you have

15 given relating to the threats to Mrs Nelson, did you

16 tell them --

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Right. So the authors of the statement that we have

19 looked at have failed to incorporate into it all the

20 allegations that you make about threats to Mrs Nelson as

21 well as the treatment of yourself?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And again, you will guess what is coming, I have to

 

 

98


1 suggest and ask you this: is it not more likely,

2 perhaps, that the very reason that statement we have

3 seen from CAJ doesn't contain these elements is because

4 you didn't tell the person taking the statement about

5 them?

6 A. But I did.

7 Q. I don't want to go on about this, but would you not

8 agree with me that it is very odd that it is not in this

9 statement?

10 A. It is very odd, like, but they would have got that, all

11 of it, what they were told, like.

12 Q. But in any event, you gave this statement; yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if we move on in time, you have done this, you have

15 given your statement, albeit you say it is not complete.

16 Did Mrs Nelson after that discuss the complaint

17 investigation with you?

18 A. I'm not too sure.

19 Q. Or putting it another way, what did you know about the

20 complaint investigation once you had left the office

21 having given this statement?

22 A. Nothing.

23 Q. But why did you think you were giving the statement?

24 A. Just further harassment and the threats made to

25 Rosemary.

 

 

99


1 Q. So you were expecting something to be done with it?

2 A. Yes, but ... nothing -- I didn't hear any more about it,

3 like.

4 Q. Did you not think that was a little odd?

5 A. I did, but -- sure. I was just waiting on a letter,

6 whatever, like --

7 Q. Because you will understand what I am suggesting is that

8 what you have told us were terrible events.

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 Q. Memorable events. You give a statement which you don't

11 sign and, forgive me for putting this, you seem to

12 forget all about it. Is that a fair way of describing

13 it or not?

14 A. Just more or less, like. I just put it to the back of

15 my head, like, gave a statement.

16 Q. But if we look at RNI-206-069, please (displayed),

17 I appreciate you haven't had any hand in this, but you

18 will see the last three lines -- this is the statement

19 of Mr Mageean, and he says:

20 "I have handed these statements to P146."

21 Yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So whilst you are putting this to the back of your mind,

24 Mr Mageean is handing the statement on to the Complaints

25 and Discipline officer, P146?

 

 

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1 A. Right.

2 Q. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you content for that to have happened? Presumably

5 you were?

6 A. I can't remember him saying that he was going to hand it

7 over to anybody else.

8 Q. But you had given it to make a complaint?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So I presume that you would have had no objection to it

11 being given to third parties?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Had you, prior to this period of detention in February,

14 made any complaints against the police before?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. And what about afterwards?

17 A. Numerous occasions.

18 Q. And did you take a more active role in following those

19 through?

20 A. No, I didn't, no.

21 Q. Could we call up, please, RNI-202-099 (displayed). Now,

22 this is a letter dated 21st October from the Royal

23 Ulster Constabulary Complaints and Discipline

24 Department, to you at 4 Drumnamoe Avenue?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

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1 Q. "I refer to your statement against police made to the

2 Committee on the Administration of Justice. I now

3 enclose a copy of a letter which I have sent to your

4 solicitor on this date."

5 Do you remember getting that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You don't?

8 A. No.

9 Q. But at that time was this your address?

10 A. Yes, it was, yes.

11 Q. Was it your parents' address --

12 A. My parents' address.

13 Q. But you were living there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But you have no recollection of receiving it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Can we go to RNI-202-100, please (displayed). This is

18 the letter dated 21st October to Mrs Nelson. Do you see

19 that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you can see your name, which was ciphered, and your

22 brother's name, and the author of the letter saying:

23 "I now wish to interview you."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

 

 

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1 Q. "Please arrange for them to be present at either

2 Craigavon RUC station or the Independent Commission for

3 Police Complaints offices on 11th November."

4 Yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If we turn the page to RNI-202-101, please, (displayed)

7 we can indeed see in the last sentence:

8 "I have sent on a copy of this letter to you."

9 Any memory of receiving that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. None at all?

12 A. None.

13 Q. Could we call up RNI-202-113 (displayed). This, again,

14 being fair to you, is a letter that is sent to your

15 solicitor, Mrs Nelson, not to you; yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But if we look in the first paragraph -- can we

18 highlight that:

19 "I refer to my telephone conversation with your

20 legal clerk, Annette, on 12th November 1997 during which

21 she indicated that you still intend to provide witness

22 evidence to me during interview despite their failure to

23 attend the previously suggested interviews, the date and

24 times of which were sent to your office."

25 So Mrs Nelson's legal clerk is, as it were, passing

 

 

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1 on a message that you still intend to cooperate. Do you

2 have any recollection about that?

3 A. No, none.

4 Q. Do you have any recollection at all of dealing with

5 Mrs Nelson, her secretary or anybody about people saying

6 to you, "Look, there is a complaints investigation, can

7 you make this date at this location to give

8 a statement"?

9 A. No.

10 Q. No recollection at all?

11 A. No.

12 Q. That was the Complaints and Discipline Department of the

13 Royal Ulster Constabulary trying to move things forward;

14 yes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And there comes a time when -- I am just explaining this

17 to you -- someone from the Metropolitan Police in London

18 comes to look at these allegations, called Mr Mulvihill.

19 Have you ever heard that name before?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. And he takes up the baton, writing to you to try and get

22 you to cooperate. If we can call up RNI-223-041

23 (displayed), that is the same address of

24 Drumnamoe Avenue that we have looked at. It is later in

25 time; it is August 1998. You were living there then?

 

 

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1 A. I was, yes.

2 Q. You can see this. This is, if you will forgive me for

3 saying so, if you looked at it a letter that might have

4 caught your eye, because it has a Metropolitan Police

5 badge. So it is not the usual RUC, is it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No recollection of receiving that?

8 A. None.

9 Q. Forgive me, I will just show you the penultimate

10 paragraph. The author, Mr Mulvihill, says:

11 "It would greatly assist the investigation if I

12 could see you in September at those premises to discuss

13 the complaint in detail."

14 So that is the request from Mr Mulvihill to come and

15 help him to give a statement?

16 A. Never, I have never seen it before.

17 Q. RNI-220-944, please (displayed). I know you are

18 probably going to say you have never seen any of these,

19 but I have to go through them quickly.

20 15th September, same address, take it from me, to

21 you: Never seen that before?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Middle paragraph:

24 "... to arrange precise details for me to take a

25 statement from you on either Monday or Tuesday next

 

 

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1 week, 21st or 22nd September."

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. RNI-114-137.500, please (displayed). This is a slightly

5 different beast. This is a file note taken by

6 Mr Ed Lynch and it records a conversation:

7 "Ita, from Rosemary Nelson's office, telephoned on

8 18th September 1998."

9 Do you see that; yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If we look a little bit down the page, we have:

12 "Mrs Nelson will be attending at ..."

13 Then there are some times:

14 "... Tuesday, 22nd, 12 pm, [you]."

15 What I am suggesting to you from this document --

16 disagree with me if you wish -- is that this suggests,

17 does it not, that you were in contact with Mrs Nelson at

18 least trying to fix up an appointment?

19 A. I can't remember it, like.

20 Q. But that is what it is suggestive of, unless Mrs Nelson

21 was making things up without speaking to you,

22 doesn't it?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. RNI-223-142, please (displayed). Again, this is

25 a letter to you, same address, 24th September, first

 

 

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1 paragraph:

2 "I'm sorry you were unable to make the confirmed

3 appointment to see my inquiry team at the offices on

4 Tuesday, 22nd September. However, I am encouraged to

5 hear that you will be able to see members of the inquiry

6 team at the ICPC offices on Tuesday, 6th October."

7 So we have got there -- again, do you see what I am

8 driving at? -- a suggestion that you are providing some

9 kind of information as to your availability?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you don't recall that at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. RNI-223-191, please (displayed). Could we just

14 highlight the first three paragraphs. This is a file

15 note taken by a member of the Mulvihill team, dated

16 26th October:

17 "At 2 pm, myself and DS Neligan met with Miss

18 McNally and Mrs Mitchell."

19 It then goes on to talk about C138. Then it says:

20 "Barry Toman and [you] had also intimated that they

21 were prepared to see the inquiry team. In consultation

22 with Mrs Nelson's office, it was agreed to see

23 Barry Toman and C206 at midday on the same day,

24 6th November."

25 Are you saying to us that you have absolutely no

 

 

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1 recollection of any of this?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Is it likely, if I can ask you, that you were

4 cooperating?

5 A. By that, I probably was, yes. I was. I just can't

6 remember.

7 Q. We can see that an interview was arranged but you didn't

8 attend. You never went to see Mr Mulvihill?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can you tell us why that was?

11 A. No idea. I just can't remember.

12 Q. You see, putting it to you as generally as I can, we

13 have on the one hand an appalling set of incidents at

14 the time you are in custody?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Very nasty behaviour to you, physical behaviour, abuse

17 to Mrs Nelson and threats to her life. You have

18 described them as being memorable, unpleasant. You go

19 and give a statement about it, but then, it would seem,

20 you don't play any active part at all in trying to bring

21 the complaint to fruition. Do you understand what

22 I mean?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. What would you say to the Inquiry about that? Because

25 on one view you -- forgive me for putting it like

 

 

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1 this -- thwarted the complaints investigation, because

2 you don't cooperate.

3 A. I don't know why I didn't, like. I can't remember

4 seeing half of them letters, like.

5 Q. But you were living at the address?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. There was no problem with the post. Did you not think

8 about ever ringing Mrs Nelson and saying, "What has

9 happened to the complaint"?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you have occasion to see her, either in the street

12 or for other legal matters over this period of time,

13 when you could have raised it with her?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Because in relation to your rough physical treatment in

16 custody, you didn't make a complaint, any civil claim?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You say you didn't suffer any injuries. There is

19 another alternative that I have to put to you: that in

20 fact you had made these things up.

21 A. No.

22 Q. You understand why I am putting this to you?

23 A. I understand, yes.

24 Q. That none of these things in fact ever happened and that

25 this was an attempt by you, for another motive, to

 

 

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1 discredit the police?

2 A. No, that's not true.

3 Q. You perceived that you were harassed by them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you make these things up in order to get back at

6 them because you had a grudge against them?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You didn't?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And are you saying to us today that they did in fact

11 happen?

12 A. They did.

13 Q. You were arrested with your brother?

14 A. Yes, I was, yes.

15 Q. Had there been any discussion with him, either prior to

16 your arrest or anybody else or after your arrest,

17 about --

18 A. After my arrest I met him, talked about it for a wee

19 while.

20 Q. What did you talk about with him?

21 A. I just talked about the harassment and the threats made

22 against Rosemary, like.

23 Q. What was said?

24 A. What was said at the interviews?

25 Q. No, what was said between you and your brother?

 

 

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1 A. I just spoke about it, like.

2 Q. Did he say anything about his complaint?

3 A. No, he never mentioned it, like.

4 Q. Did he mention anything that had happened to him?

5 A. He did. He just says that he got more or less the same

6 what I got, so he did.

7 Q. But neither of you took it any further?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Sir, I am very nearly finished and before I do, I am

10 just moving to a slightly different area of the

11 evidence. It is only going to be a few minutes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: You will be some time, will you?

13 MR SAVILL: No, only a few minutes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: We certainly have overrun.

15 MR DONALDSON: Sir, I will say that I will have certain

16 matters to discuss and I think it would be preferable if

17 we had lunch.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: What we will do is we will break off now

19 until quarter past two, which will give you plenty of

20 time for your discussions, Mr Donaldson, and give

21 a break to the hard-pressed stenographer.

22 MR SAVILL: Could I indicate, sir, that the area which I am

23 going to move to will only take a few minutes and it

24 doesn't concern the complaint, so Mr Donaldson can talk

25 to me, as it were, now, I having concluded my questions

 

 

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1 on the complaints issue.

2 MR DONALDSON: I would like some lunch as well, of course,

3 sir.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: We are going to rise. Quarter past two.

5 Could you be back here at quarter past two? Thank you.

6 (1.15 pm)

7 (The short adjournment)

8 (2.15 pm)

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

10 MR SAVILL: Just excuse me for one moment, I was just

11 talking to my learned friend.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly. (Pause)

13 MR SAVILL: Mr Toman, I would just like to clarify one

14 matter with you before turning to a slightly different

15 area. We talked about a second incident in July 1997.

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. In relation to a train.

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Is it right that you were arrested with Brian Loughran

20 and Shane McCrory?

21 A. I think so, yes.

22 Q. And on that occasion did you discuss with them, either

23 whilst in custody by shouting or outside after being

24 released, any threats or abuse which they say had been

25 levelled at Mrs Nelson or them through the police?

 

 

112


1 A. No, I wouldn't have discussed anything like that with

2 them. No.

3 Q. So not on that occasion or on any occasion did you

4 discuss with Messrs McCrory or Loughran complaints

5 against the police about abuse concerning Mrs Nelson?

6 A. No, that I am aware of anyway, no.

7 Q. So anything you have told us about allegations

8 concerning Mrs Nelson and threats by the police are from

9 your own memory --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- not things that may have lodged there from speaking

12 to other people?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Moving on, as I say, to a slightly different area of

15 your evidence -- and this concerns the activity of the

16 security forces -- you told the Inquiry in your

17 statement that there was one incident in particular

18 involving a soldier in a Land Rover that stuck in your

19 mind?

20 A. A police Land Rover, at the top of Kilwilke Estate. It

21 wasn't the Army, like, it was the police.

22 Q. It was the police?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell us what it was?

25 A. We were in Levin Road one night, a couple of us going

 

 

113


1 for a walk and there was a bit of shouting and roaring

2 and a police Land Rover appeared at the top of the

3 junction of Victoria Street between Levin Road and

4 Lake Street. The police officer got out -- he had

5 a balaclava on him and an assault rifle on him and he

6 put it up in the air.

7 Q. Just pause there. A what rifle?

8 A. Assault rifle.

9 Q. An assault rifle?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did he do, sorry?

12 A. He just stood there with it raised above his head, so he

13 did.

14 Q. Mrs Nelson died on the Monday. Can you recollect which

15 day this happened?

16 A. I can't remember, like.

17 Q. Can we put up on the screen, RNI-821-074, please

18 (displayed). The bottom paragraph, if we could

19 highlight that, please. You recall an incident there,

20 which reads as follows:

21 "I recall one incident in particular which sticks in

22 my memory. It took place a day or two before Rosemary

23 was murdered. I think it may have been on a Sunday

24 before mass. A man got out of an RUC Land Rover, which

25 had stopped at the top of the Kilwilke Estate. He was

 

 

114


1 wearing a balaclava and raised his G3 rifle to the sky."

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. "This incident took place on Lake Street at the junction

4 with Victoria Road and Levin Road. I was just stood and

5 watched with a group of mates. I cannot remember who I

6 was with any more."

7 A. That's right, yes.

8 Q. Just dealing with this, please, what time of day do you

9 think this was? You say before mass?

10 A. I think it was before 12 o'clock mass, just before it,

11 like.

12 Q. Middle of the day, lunchtime-ish?

13 A. Ish, yes.

14 Q. And in relation to your statement to the Inquiry, you

15 describe it as a G3 rifle?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is the difference, or isn't there one, between that

18 and an assault rifle?

19 A. Just the same, like. Talking about it, like, when it

20 happened.

21 Q. How were you able to describe it as a G3 rifle?

22 A. I just asked the fellow.

23 Q. Which fellow?

24 A. Just guys that we were with, like. We were just

25 discussing it, like. We'd never seen them carrying

 

 

115


1 them. We usually see them all green. Fellow says no,

2 it's police. They were police.

3 Q. That last bit was lost on my ears, I am afraid. You

4 asked the fellow that you were with --

5 A. Yes, the guy -- we were talking about it. I says that's

6 not the Army issue, the Army don't carry them, and he

7 says --

8 Q. Just slowly, please. That is not the Army?

9 A. Yes, that's the police. The Army don't carry them.

10 Q. Carry what?

11 A. Them rifles, them type of guns.

12 Q. Did the person who you were with describe it as a G3

13 rifle?

14 A. He did, yes.

15 Q. That is where you get that from?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, I am not going to go through it in huge detail but

18 in the paragraphs after the one we have just looked at,

19 you describe various pieces of activity and I would just

20 like to draw a couple to your attention.

21 Could we highlight, please, paragraph 43. And if we

22 look at the fifth line up from the bottom, towards the

23 end that says:

24 "There were also ..."

25 This says:

 

 

116


1 "There were also unusual checkpoints in unusual

2 locations."

3 Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "There was a checkpoint at Mile House, which was very,

6 very unusual. Some people may disagree, but I had never

7 seen a checkpoint there before. There was a no go zone

8 for the Army. It would have been dangerous for them to

9 have a checkpoint there."

10 Do you stand by that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this was the day of the murder. So that is the

13 Sunday?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I am sorry, just forgive me, I may be wrong, there.

16 (Pause)

17 Sorry, this was the day before the murder, the

18 Sunday. Can you tell us what time of day that was that

19 you are talking about?

20 A. Not 100 per cent sure. I just can't remember.

21 Q. Can you tell me whether it was day or night?

22 A. Day, it was. The police just sat there most the day,

23 like, with them.

24 Q. I am talking about the Mile House checkpoint?

25 A. I think it was during the day at some stage. I don't

 

 

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1 exactly know what time.

2 Q. Could we also look down to paragraph 45 and highlight

3 that. We can see in the second line:

4 "I saw an Army patrol, probably RIR, UDR,

5 suspiciously remove an object from what looked like

6 a concrete pillar box close to the railway crossing on

7 Lake Street."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could we go over the page, please, to paragraph 46 on

11 RNI-821-073. We can see later on just after midday:

12 "There were four or five of us watching the patrol

13 from an alleyway approximately 150 to 200 feet away."

14 This is later on:

15 "I cannot remember who else was with me any more,

16 however. There were about 16 or 17 soldiers in the

17 patrol spread out in line. At first we thought they

18 were removing spying equipment from the pillar box.

19 However, I now think it's something to do with

20 Rosemary's murder."

21 You are talking about increased activity, the pillar

22 box, the checkpoint, the man in the balaclava. All

23 things that caused you to take note of them?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you do anything with this information? You are

 

 

118


1 telling us about it now but did you go and tell the

2 police, the murder investigation team?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Because here we see you say:

5 "I now think it had something to do with Rosemary's

6 murder."

7 Is that now when you gave this statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But at the time --

10 A. Never really thought more about it, like. I thought it

11 was just a normal thing for them, that they are nosing

12 about like that.

13 Q. Could we go back, please, to paragraph 44, the previous

14 page? Could you just tell us, you saw security forces

15 around the scene?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Around the cordon of the scene?

18 A. Yes, Scotch patrol.

19 Q. Something patrol you just said?

20 A. Scotch regiment.

21 Q. Scottish regiment?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was noticed by you about these soldiers?

24 A. Had these wee berets on them with the wee chequered

25 thing round them.

 

 

119


1 Q. Do you mean tartan?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was it that they said or did that caught your

4 attention?

5 A. It was people roaring and shouting at them and they

6 says, "Do you think she needs a hand down there?"

7 Q. What did you do in relation to that?

8 A. Just pushed everybody back.

9 Q. You did?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you tell anyone about this behaviour?

12 A. There was a couple of people there standing near me,

13 like, heard it too.

14 Q. What I mean is did you go and tell the police?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Or anyone present at the scene?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Just excuse me. (Pause)

19 There is one further question, forgive me. Is there

20 anything else that you would like to tell the Inquiry

21 while you are here, other than that which we have

22 discussed?

23 A. No, nothing, just fine.

24 MR SAVILL: Thank you.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr Toman, thank you for coming here to

 

 

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1 give evidence before us. You are free to leave now.

2 A. Thanks very much.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

4 We will adjourn until tomorrow, 2 pm tomorrow.

5 (2.26 pm)

6 (The Inquiry adjourned until 2.00 pm the following day)

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C138 (sworn) ..................................... 2
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Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 2
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MR COLM TOMAN (affirmed) ......................... 58
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Questions by MR SAVILL ....................... 58
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