1 Thursday 20th November, 2003
2 (10.05 pm)
3 MR O'DONOVAN: Since yesterday the witness has had the
4 opportunity of considering the video recording and is
5 now in a position to answer such questions as may be put
6 to him.
7 My instructing solicitor and Eversheds together have
8 produced two documents relating to chronology. I have
9 endeavoured to put them in date order and I hope that is
10 of some assistance to the Tribunal.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you. I do not think we have got it
12 yet.
13 MR O'DONOVAN: I was under the impression the Tribunal might
14 have it. (Handed)
15 It is probably appropriate the Tribunal has it,
16 I know my learned friend Mr Elias (inaudible) the
17 Tribunal have it.
18 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I think.
19 MR O'DONOVAN: The ring numbers represent the chronology,
20 not surprisingly from the beginning to the end.
21 LORD SAVILLE: It is the one headed "Memo"; is that right?
22 MR O'DONOVAN: Yes, there should be behind it a document
23 produced by Eversheds entitled "OIRA 7 Inquiry Contact".
24 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I have that too.
25 MR O'DONOVAN: My learned friend Mr Clarke pointed out to me
1 that at 4 on the Eversheds document I inserted my own
2 hand -- it was at the time for my benefit, perhaps
3 I ought to translate. It says "1st May 2001
4 to March 2003" it should say "non-reciprocated contact
5 because of wrongly recorded telephone number".
6 What in fact occurred was the witness telephoned my
7 instructing solicitor and his number was wrongly
8 recorded and that is why there was a gap in contact.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I follow. Thank you very much for that.
10 MR O'DONOVAN: Sir, the final matter is, an issue arose
11 yesterday as to contributions this witness may have made
12 to media companies, either television or written.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Yes.
14 MR O'DONOVAN: A brief list of the matters that he can
15 recall has been put forward.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Is there anything else you want to say at
17 this stage?
18 MR O'DONOVAN: No, thank you, sir.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, as far as that list is concerned,
20 we have it and I think the initial view of the Tribunal
21 is that we ought to see to what extent we can follow it
22 up and discover whether anything in it seems to be of
23 relevance.
24 In that context, of course, the fact is that this
25 witness is anonymous so we may have to take that into
1 account in our consideration of any material that may
2 come to light which might be relevant.
3 Is there anything else you wanted to say at this
4 stage?
5 MR CLARKE: No, there are some details we may need by way of
6 Further and Better Particulars of some of the entries on
7 the list that we can deal with outside the confines of
8 this witness's oral evidence.
9 MR LAWSON: Sir, we are under the disadvantage in that we
10 have neither the memo nor the list to which reference
11 has been made. I was given a document which I imagine
12 that you have, headed "OIRA 7 Inquiry Contact".
13 LORD SAVILLE: I cannot see any reason at the moment why you
14 should not have the memo, Mr O'Donovan?
15 MR O'DONOVAN: No reason at all, sir, I know my learned
16 friend Mr Elias has it.
17 LORD SAVILLE: I have only had it for a minute, you are only
18 a minute behind me. Could somebody give Mr Lawson
19 a copy of the memo, please. (Handed)
20 MR LAWSON: May I inquire politely whether it is possible
21 for us to have -- this is the list, this is not the
22 list, is it, whether it is possible for us too to have
23 the list of contacts with the media, is there any
24 objection to that?
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr O'Donovan, is there any objection to that?
1 In the normal course, Mr Lawson, I would have thought
2 not. Of course being an inquisitorial Inquiry it is for
3 us to make up our minds, indeed it is our duty to
4 investigate, so far as we think proper, matters such as
5 this to see whether we think they are relevant or
6 helpful. Unless Mr O'Donovan has some objection,
7 I would have no objection myself to you having the list,
8 provided you bear in mind the need to seek to preserve
9 the anonymity of the witness.
10 MR LAWSON: Yes, that is fairly understood.
11 MR O'DONOVAN: Sir, respectfully I agree. I know the
12 anxiety of this witness, and the Tribunal has seen the
13 list, that it would not be tremendously difficult,
14 having regard to certain of the publications, to
15 identify him. Otherwise I have no observations.
16 LORD SAVILLE: I can see no objection myself, in view of
17 that, to Mr Lawson having the list that the witness has
18 prepared, asking him once again to bear in mind the
19 witness has got anonymity and that, therefore, great
20 care must be taken to seek to preserve that.
21 We can provide you with a list, Mr Lawson.
22 MR LAWSON: I am very grateful. I am grateful to Mr Hoyt
23 for that, can I hand it back, no doubt a copy can be
24 given to us later on (Handed).
25 OIRA 7 (continued)
1 Questioned by MR LAWSON (continued)
2 OIRA 7, I am not going to take time, therefore, in
3 going over your previous communications, partly because
4 I do not know what is on that list and partly because
5 this list will speak for itself. This list includes all
6 previous communications you can remember with the media?
7 A. From what I can remember, yes.
8 Q. Does it specifically relate to your recollection of
9 giving accounts of the shooting of Mr Wray, or is it all
10 contact?
11 A. Um, it would have all contact.
12 Q. Has there been any occasion on which you have previously
13 made a written statement in the broad sense that
14 I referred to it yesterday?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Forgive me, relating to Mr Wray's shooting?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. There has, to whom was that?
19 A. It appears on the list. If I had the list I would be
20 able to show you.
21 Q. Can you remember to whom it was?
22 A. Yes, the publication is out there at that point.
23 Q. Who prepared this list?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. All I am asking you is to whom did you make a written
1 statement about Mr Wray's shooting; you prepared the
2 list last night, you must remember?
3 A. A journalist researcher.
4 Q. Who was?
5 A. The work is published, it is going to be easy to find.
6 Q. We will look at the list. Can we have the list, I would
7 hope, during the course of the morning before you part.
8 Can I go back to the topic I was dealing with with
9 you yesterday evening when we were interrupted by the
10 musical performance next door, which was the shooting of
11 Mr Wray and what you now recollect of that. Could we
12 have, please, on the screen hot-spot 25 from the virtual
13 reality.
14 You are familiar with where this is; are you not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were sheltering in this area when the soldiers were
17 in Glenfada Park North; that is correct, is it not?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And you moved around variously within this area?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. From the wall we can see at the far end with "Brad"
22 without an S on it, yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. To the wall that is immediately in the foreground now on
25 the photograph and then to the wall on the left; is that
1 right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember where you were when you saw Mr Wray
4 shot?
5 A. I think it was the wall at the fore--
6 Q. The wall in the foreground?
7 A. From what I recall.
8 Q. But you are not sure about it?
9 A. The wall in the foreground.
10 Q. You were moving around in that area?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was there a lot of people about?
13 A. There were not a lot of people around.
14 Q. No, relatively few, and you were, as I say, sheltering
15 from fire?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There was shooting going on?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you were keeping out of the sideline, so to speak; is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In relation to what is on the screen at the moment,
23 without marking it, do you remember roughly where you
24 would have been at the time you think you saw Mr Wray
25 shot?
1 A. From what I can recall, you know, I mean it was, it was
2 the wall at the foreground.
3 Q. Let us pan around a bit more to the right so we can see
4 more of it, pan it round a bit to the right, please.
5 A. It would not have been that far, no, I mean --
6 Q. Can you refer us to something that is written on the
7 wall, can you?
8 A. At the wall with, you know, at a point where I still was
9 able to see or duck out and see the square, just to see
10 what was happening.
11 Q. Because you would not be able to see out into the square
12 without sticking your head round the corner of the wall;
13 would you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is that what you say you did when you saw Mr Wray being
16 shot?
17 A. From what I recall there were a few people actually on
18 the edge of the wall.
19 Q. In front of you, so to speak?
20 A. Well, or I was part of a group of people who, who were
21 there, um --
22 Q. Sheltering behind that wall?
23 A. Sheltering and, sheltering and probably trying to be
24 aware of our own safety as well which meant trying to
25 make sure that we were not going to be arrested or, or
1 that the fire was not going to come in our direction.
2 Q. You say at some point you peeked around the corner of
3 the wall out into the square?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That just happened to coincide with the approach of the
6 soldier?
7 A. I remember seeing the soldier.
8 Q. You agree you would not have been able to see him
9 without putting your head round the corner of that wall?
10 A. It would have been impossible, yes, you are right.
11 Q. It would have been impossible. That in your mind's eye
12 is how it was you came to see Mr Wray being shot?
13 A. Yes, I mean, I was not looking out all the time round
14 the corner.
15 Q. No, because it would have been too dangerous?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there only one soldier in sight?
18 A. One soldier that I saw, there may have been more there,
19 but one, one soldier that I saw.
20 Q. Did you actually see him fire?
21 A. I remember the shot.
22 Q. That is not my question: did you see him fire?
23 A. I believe I did.
24 Q. You do not remember doing so?
25 A. I do not remember not doing so.
1 Q. You do not remember one way or the other, to be fair it
2 sounds; is that right?
3 A. I believe I saw the soldier fire. To the best of my
4 recollection I saw the soldier fire.
5 Q. Would this be a fair description: you remember hearing
6 a shot and, as you recall, seeing a soldier near to
7 Mr Wray?
8 A. (Pause). I -- to the best of my recollection I actually
9 saw the soldier fire the weapon.
10 Q. Where did the soldier then go?
11 A. Um, as soon as the shot was fired, um, I think -- yes,
12 I ducked back.
13 Q. Yes?
14 A. And then came out -- not came out, looked out and the
15 soldier was moving away, had moved away.
16 Q. You ducked back behind the shelter of the wall that we
17 can see in the centre of the screen at the moment; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then, can we pan that picture round to the left,
21 please, you moved across to the wall that we see on the
22 left of the picture?
23 A. I do not think it was immediately, but, yes, I mean,
24 I think as soon as the soldier, I felt, was out of sight
25 and it looked like he could not see me.
1 Q. But you went from the wall we have just been looking at
2 on the right to the wall on the left?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Which is the south gable end wall of
5 Glenfada Park North, yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You did not go anywhere else in the meantime?
8 A. There was not anywhere else to go.
9 Q. No. And then you stayed there for a while -- I am not
10 going to ask you how long because it is impossible to
11 say -- you stayed there for some time?
12 A. I stayed there for a while, yes.
13 Q. And then you went actually into Abbey Park itself?
14 A. My memory is that I then went to Abbey Park -- across to
15 Abbey Park with somebody or ...
16 Q. Did you see any soldier come through the alleyway that
17 we are looking at now from Glenfada Park into
18 Abbey Park?
19 A. I have been asked this previously and I, I do not
20 remember seeing the soldier actually come through that
21 gap.
22 Q. You are presumably aware of others having given evidence
23 to this Inquiry already about a soldier coming through
24 there?
25 A. Actually, I am not. I am not aware that anybody has
1 said that they have seen a soldier come through there.
2 Q. You are not aware of that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Look at one example, he is not your friend, but your
5 acquaintance, Joe Mahon, for example. Let us look on
6 the screen, AM18.4.
7 Take it from me if you would, sir, this is after his
8 description of the shooting of Mr Wray:
9 "I then saw the soldier walk into the alleyway
10 between Glenfada Park North and Glenfada Park South and
11 go into Abbey Park where I could no longer see him."
12 A. I did not see the soldier.
13 Q. If that happened and if you were where you say you were,
14 you could not have missed him, could you, because he
15 would have walked right in front of you?
16 A. Not at the time when I, when I said I was at the wall.
17 Q. I was putting to you yesterday, before we were musically
18 interrupted, the account given to this Tribunal by
19 Malachy Coyle, you may recall?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If we have back on the screen, please, AC97.26, which is
22 the indication given by Mr Coyle as to approximately
23 where he was at the time?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Sheltering outside the premises that are there shown
1 behind a fence that was there then, it might in fairness
2 be that one or the one next door, for a reason I will
3 come to; do you see?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who could see clearly Mr Wray face down on the pavement
6 or road; you agree with that, do you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did not see from his position right next to him any
9 soldier standing over Mr Wray and, as you have agreed,
10 it would have been hard to miss that soldier if he had
11 been there; would it not?
12 A. What I am saying is, I saw a soldier, um, you know, that
13 is --
14 Q. I mentioned to you yesterday that Mr Coyle told the
15 Tribunal that he had been pulled into that yard-way to
16 get him out of harms way so to speak, he was a youngster
17 at the time. The man who pulled him in, you perhaps
18 have been told, has given evidence to this Tribunal,
19 John McCourt, John Michael McCourt; do you know him?
20 A. I do not, no.
21 Q. He was sheltering behind the fencing; he also was able
22 to identify to this Tribunal where Mr Wray was lying, he
23 could see him and saw a soldier in a shooting position
24 in the northeast corner of Glenfada Park firing. If
25 what you are telling this Tribunal is right, he could
1 not have missed seeing the soldier right in front of
2 him; could he?
3 A. I do not know what he saw, I know what I saw.
4 Q. For completeness, I apprehend the Tribunal is to hear or
5 consider evidence given by Mr McCourt's brother-in-law
6 who, if I may use his anglicised name, is
7 Michael Kevlin. He, in a relatively recent statement at
8 AK45.3 gives a similar account to his brother-in-law
9 that he was inside the flat rather than outside
10 sheltering behind the fence and also refers to seeing
11 the soldier in the northeast corner in a firing
12 position.
13 Again, I suggest to you that if what you remember
14 now -- I am not doubting the sincerity of your
15 recollection -- if what you think you remember now
16 happened, he could not have missed seeing that soldier
17 right in front of him shooting the prone body of
18 Mr Wray; could he?
19 A. Again, you know, I do not know what anybody else saw.
20 My recollection is I saw this soldier where I said I saw
21 him.
22 Q. You said that Joe Mahon was not a friend of yours, that
23 is why I used the expression acquaintance, being rather
24 more neutral about it?
25 A. He was someone that I knew.
1 Q. It was not until years later, I understand, that you
2 spoke to him about these events on Bloody Sunday?
3 A. I cannot remember what the context of the conversation
4 was, but I remember having a discussion; I remember the
5 mention of, of his coat.
6 Q. Was that relatively recently?
7 A. It might have been. It is just I remember the
8 conversation in the context of when I was speaking with
9 Eversheds, that I had a discussion, or that I had talked
10 to Joe Mahon about this coat, you know, so I would say
11 it would have been before I spoke with Eversheds.
12 Q. Before you spoke to Eversheds that, we know, was only
13 a few months ago; was it not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was it, do you think, about the time of your being
16 filmed for the purpose of the video or the television
17 programme that was referred to, the 25th anniversary
18 one?
19 A. It may have been around that time, I am not sure.
20 Q. Because that, so far as we know, is about the time when
21 Mr Mahon first made mention, having made statements
22 previously, first made mention of seeing Jim Wray shot
23 in about 1997; was that about the time you spoke to him?
24 A. I cannot recall when I spoke to him. I know at a point
25 a conversation took place in which I mentioned the coat.
1 Q. And when the coat was mentioned, did you have
2 a conversation about the shooting of Jim Wray?
3 A. I just think at that point, you know, I, I was still
4 embarrassed to talk to Joe Mahon or any of the other
5 victims of Bloody Sunday about what happened that day.
6 Q. Embarrassed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why?
9 A. Because I walked away and they did not.
10 Q. Right. What, because you had not been shot?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Talking to Mr Mahon, as you did, surely you must have
13 talked about this traumatic incident of seeing Mr Wray
14 shot?
15 A. I do not remember that part of the conversation; it may
16 have been discussed, I do not remember that part of that
17 conversation.
18 Q. But you do not remember talking to him about it at all?
19 A. No, I do not remember it.
20 Q. You will have read in the local press and doubtless
21 heard about the allegations relating to the shooting of
22 Jim Wray that have been made here in this very building?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In the last few years?
25 A. Yes, some of them, yes.
1 Q. And in April 2001 you made anonymous contact, we
2 understand, with the Inquiry?
3 A. If that is the date that is given, yes.
4 Q. Then, for whatever reason -- I think it was explained --
5 something about a telephone number being got wrong,
6 there was no further contact between you and the Inquiry
7 between about May 2001 and May of this year?
8 A. There was contact with, um, my instructing solicitor.
9 Q. There was in that period, was there?
10 A. Yes, I think so.
11 Q. We will look into that, I will not trouble you with it.
12 Were you anxious to assist this Inquiry in relation to
13 what you could say about the events of Bloody Sunday?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why was it not until May this year that you came
16 forward?
17 A. Because I did not know what, what the position was
18 regarding, um, either anonymity or the Attorney
19 General's ruling.
20 Q. So you needed some advice as to that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I do not want to know what advice you were given. Did
23 you take advice during the two-year period from your
24 anonymous contact onwards?
25 A. I am not sure, no.
1 Q. You are not sure. At what point when you were in or by
2 Glenfada Park North did you hear pistol shots?
3 A. I did not hear pistol shots.
4 Q. Did you not?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can we look, so there is no mistake about it, let us
7 look at yesterday's transcript, please, page 97. At
8 line 17 yesterday, Mr Clarke asked you:
9 "Question: Do you have any recollection of hearing
10 pistol shots in Glenfada Park?"
11 You replied:
12 "Answer: I recall hearing shots, you know, pistol
13 shots ... I still considered that there was ... rifle
14 fire which appears to be coming from -- appeared to be
15 in Rossville Street."
16 That is what you said yesterday; what did you mean?
17 A. (Pause). It may have been on the (indistinguishable),
18 um -- you know, I still recall hearing shots.
19 Q. Sorry, it may have been on the -- I do not think either
20 I or the stenographer heard that?
21 A. It may have been on the pick-up.
22 MR O'DONOVAN: Sir, may I raise a matter. I do not have
23 a note of that. I appreciate it is showing on the
24 transcript, but my learned friend Mr Harvey did have
25 a note of what was being said and his note does not
1 accord with the transcript. I do not know if my learned
2 friend can assist?
3 MR HARVEY: Sir, obviously I am guided by the transcripts
4 and everything, but I did note down at the time these
5 words:
6 "I recall hearing shots in GPN. I consider it was
7 rifle fire, not pistol shots as suggested by
8 Tony Martin."
9 That is what I wrote down at the time. I do not
10 know if anybody else has a recollection of that?
11 MR CLARKE: I have no direct recollection, but I do recall
12 having asked the question, thinking that the response
13 was not in agreement with the question and I have some
14 recollection that -- no doubt this is a rationalisation,
15 that the words "pistol shots" was used in the answer; it
16 was used, in one sense, interrogatively questioning
17 whether it was pistol shots and saying that what he had
18 heard was rifle fire. I may be quite wrong in my
19 recollection but that is something I have in my mind.
20 LORD SAVILLE: What we had better do on this, Mr Lawson, is
21 check the audio record and see what comes up as a result
22 of that.
23 MR LAWSON: If you would be so kind, I am grateful.
24 Whatever you said yesterday -- that is going to be
25 checked, as you heard, did you at any stage that day
1 hear pistol shots.
2 A. I do not recall hearing pistol shots.
3 Q. At any point?
4 A. At any point.
5 Q. From the position you were in, particularly once you
6 were in the shelter of the alleyway, the
7 Glenfada Park North to Abbey Park alleyway, presumably
8 you would have difficulty hearing shots that were any
9 distance away. You could hear shots from Glenfada Park
10 certainly?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Shots from the Rossville Street wasteground, did you
13 have any impression of those at that time?
14 A. I believe that I could still hear shooting, not directly
15 in Abbey Park but --
16 Q. But from some distance away?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Including automatic shooting, apparently?
19 A. I never heard -- I never said I heard any automatic
20 fire.
21 Q. No, but you did, did you not?
22 A. No, I did not, and I have no recollection of hearing it.
23 I mean, the distinct sounds of, of a rifle as compared
24 to what you would call automatic fire, you know, at no
25 point do I recall hearing automatic fire.
1 Q. Does a Thompson have a distinctive sound?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you at least would clearly recognise a Thompson if
4 you heard it fired; were you familiar with the weapon?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were pictured posing with it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On the television; were you not, yes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You did not hear a Thompson that day?
11 A. I did not hear a Thompson.
12 Q. The distinctive sound of a Thompson is such that it
13 would be difficult to mistake?
14 A. Yes, it would.
15 Q. Thank you. You went from the position in which you were
16 sheltering, or the positions in which you were
17 sheltering in that little alleyway, or
18 Glenfada Park North. You went, you have told us, to
19 Abbey Park?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That was your next port of call, as far as I understand
22 it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And to the house where Joe Mahon was taken, or was when
25 you got there; is that right?
1 A. I was taken.
2 Q. Mr Clarke asked you yesterday whether you knew who lived
3 there, whose house it was and you said: no; was that the
4 case?
5 A. I did not know, aye, to this day -- I am not even sure
6 if I could point out the house today.
7 Q. There is little doubt as to which house it was because
8 the Tribunal has heard evidence about that, received
9 evidence including from the owner of the house, or the
10 occupier of it, Mrs Isabel McCourt; do you know her?
11 A. Actually, I am not sure that I do.
12 Q. You described in your evidence already -- I will not go
13 over it in any way extensively -- your taking
14 Joe Mahon's jacket and wearing it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why did you take it?
17 A. Because it had to be taken off him so that someone could
18 examine his wound, or wounds and, you know, I did not
19 want to leave the jacket just lying there.
20 Q. Was this inside or outside the house at Abbey Park?
21 A. At a point I had Joe Mahon's jacket, you know.
22 Q. Was the jacket blooded?
23 A. Yes, there was blood on it.
24 Q. What happened to it?
25 A. It stayed, I believe, in my mother's house for quite
1 some time.
2 Q. And then?
3 A. Then, I do not know what happened to it.
4 Q. You say you put it on?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Before you left the area?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. A sort of combat jacket?
9 A. Yes, it was, yes.
10 Q. You ended up -- or at least later on, at some later
11 point, you went back to Glenfada Park North; did you
12 not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Right, after the soldiers had gone?
15 A. I think at that point the soldiers -- there were still
16 some soldiers around, um ...
17 Q. There were a lot of people crying and shouting; is that
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In the Glenfada Park North?
21 A. Actually in the alleyway, back in the same alleyway
22 again.
23 Q. Where were the soldiers?
24 A. I believe they were still in Glenfada Park, although
25 I could not see them.
1 Q. Is this the point at which you were thinking of going to
2 the car?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. To get the gun?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You have told us that there was, is this right, a heated
7 discussion about you going into the Glenfada Park North
8 to get the car?
9 A. There was a lot of anger, a lot of, um, shouting, quite
10 a bit of crying, um, there was -- I mean, everything was
11 certainly heated, um, and, I mean, there was some
12 objection --
13 Q. To you going to the car?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was the objection of you going to the car?
16 A. Firstly that more people would be killed and, secondly,
17 that I would be killed on the way to do it.
18 Q. In this heated discussion, did you say why you were
19 going to the car?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. To do what?
22 A. To get a rifle.
23 Q. To get a rifle. Did you have the keys to the car?
24 A. Even at this point I am not sure if I had the keys of
25 the car or not.
1 Q. Was the car still in the same sheltered position as it
2 had been before?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When the rifle had been put into the car, you added
5 yesterday to your statement that whether you had
6 actually put it in there or not, you together with
7 OIRA 1 and OIRA 2 had stood around the boot?
8 A. Well, we -- I mean, we, I think what I actually said
9 was -- you can go back on it -- was that we stayed --
10 that we stood a minute looking round to see if anybody
11 had noticed us doing it and then we went our own way.
12 Q. Who were you anxious might see you?
13 A. Anybody.
14 Q. That point at Glenfada Park North is in fact a very
15 sheltered position?
16 A. Sheltered from?
17 Q. From any oversight by premises that might be occupied by
18 soldiers or Security Forces?
19 A. Sheltered, you know, it is open on the inside, the
20 square itself is wide open, there were people in the
21 square.
22 Q. So far as the Army or the RUC were concerned, that is
23 a good sheltered point, that is why it was used to park
24 cars in, to take weapons out of; was it not?
25 A. It was to park cars for people who did not want to go on
1 the march.
2 Q. But for the purposes of finding a secure, discreet place
3 in which to have a car from or into which guns could be
4 taken or put, that was a particular place of choice; was
5 it not?
6 A. I mean, I was not from the Bogside. I was actually
7 fairly unfamiliar with the area.
8 Q. You were from the Creggan?
9 A. I was from the Creggan.
10 Q. A Derry man?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You had lived in Derry all your life?
13 A. Most of it.
14 Q. You knew the area?
15 A. It was a fairly new area.
16 Q. Can we just see, please, so there is no doubt about
17 it -- can we have hot-spot 21. Can you give us the
18 computer panorama? Can we just pan round to the right.
19 You see what has been done here, OIRA 1, is to
20 superimpose on a later photograph, you can see at the
21 top right there is Block 1 of the old Rossville Flats
22 which had been demolished by the time of the
23 photograph.
24 This would show, would it not, the picture on the
25 screen at the moment, the approximate position of the
1 car, it would be somewhere to the right as we look at it
2 on the screen; would it not?
3 A. As far as I can recall, yes.
4 Q. That was a sheltered position from which arms could
5 safely be transferred to and from a car, which is why it
6 was chosen; is that not right?
7 A. The car was there because the car was left there, you
8 know, I am almost certain I did not leave the car there
9 so I cannot say why it was brought there.
10 Q. The car of itself was of no little value to you or to
11 your organisation; was it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If you had lost the car, another one could, to use the
14 euphemism, another could have been requisitioned, ie
15 stolen; I take it that is what "requisitioned" means?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The weapon on the other hand was particularly valuable?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Even if defective?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you do not know whether it was defective or not; do
22 you?
23 A. I did not examine it.
24 Q. Was it a weapon with which you were familiar?
25 A. It was a weapon I recognised at a point as having been
1 one that our organisation had.
2 Q. Let me ask you again: was it a weapon with which you
3 were familiar?
4 A. I knew it was ours.
5 Q. I do not know if that is a yes or no answer but: was it
6 a weapon with which you were familiar?
7 A. I knew it was our weapon, I could not have told you
8 every mark and nick and --
9 Q. You could have identified it as one of your weapons?
10 A. That is what I have said.
11 Q. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you were familiar with it?
14 A. I could -- I mean, I could not identify every nick and,
15 and cut and --
16 Q. I am not suggesting that. All I am asking you is
17 whether you agree or disagree with the description that
18 you were familiar with that weapon?
19 A. I recognised the weapon as being one of ours, I am not
20 saying I personally at any point had used that weapon.
21 Q. Let me try once more for the fifth time: was it a weapon
22 with which you were familiar?
23 A. It was one of, of a not substantial arsenal of weapons
24 that belonged to the Official Irish Republican Army,
25 yes.
1 Q. I will take you to a passage in your statement and ask
2 you if it is correct, AOIRA 7.8, please, paragraph 42
3 the second sentence of which you said you recalled the
4 weapon?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "... stock stocked about halfway from the trigger guard
7 which made it more of a hunting rifle."
8 I pause there, it has been referred to as a sporting
9 rifle; that is the one, is it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "These weapons were all black or dark in colour due to
12 age, wear or rust. It was a weapon I was familiar
13 with."
14 A. Familiar with in the context that it belonged to the
15 organisation.
16 Q. It was a weapon that you had seen previously, obviously?
17 A. Yes, I would have seen it at some point. We had not got
18 a substantial arsenal of weapons.
19 Q. No. You were a bit taken aback originally to find it
20 was in the Bogside; were you not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did anyone say to you at the time anything about it
23 being defective?
24 A. Nobody, nobody in the Bogside had any need to say to me,
25 I was in the Creggan and we had, um, sufficient weapons.
1 Q. I thought you were short of weapons?
2 A. We had -- we were not going to take all the weapons out
3 of the Bogside.
4 Q. Except when?
5 A. Well, I do not know when. I am saying, you know, the
6 weapons that were in Creggan were the weapons that were
7 in Creggan. I need not necessarily, for some time, have
8 seen that particular rifle.
9 Q. Why were you a bit taken aback to find that rifle being
10 used in the Bogside that day?
11 A. Because it -- I did not know there was one there and
12 I was of the opinion -- you know, that there were not
13 going to be any weapons there.
14 Q. You did not know anything about any orders being given
15 for the removal of guns from the Bogside?
16 A. I said, I said I may or may not have been told, I do not
17 recall, and I was aware -- or made aware later.
18 Q. You know there is nothing wrong with it and nobody said
19 there was anything wrong with it in your presence; did
20 they?
21 A. I mean, it was -- it was not an inspection of a weapon,
22 it was a very, very quick removal of a weapon.
23 Q. When did you learn later on that it was said to have
24 been defective?
25 A. I am not sure that I did learn, I mean through the
1 course of the Inquiry.
2 Q. When did you learn later on -- if you did -- that, if it
3 be true, of the story that OIRA 1 and OIRA 2 had gone
4 down that afternoon just to collect the weapon, when did
5 you learn that for the first time?
6 A. They were members of the command staff, you know, I have
7 no need to know their reason for being anywhere.
8 Q. Where did you hear that for the first time?
9 A. I do not recall.
10 Q. Some time after Bloody Sunday?
11 A. Probably after Bloody Sunday.
12 Q. But no-one said to you, ever told you in the immediate
13 aftermath of Bloody Sunday "We just went down there to
14 pick up this weapon when the shooting started"?
15 A. No, as I said, Bloody Sunday was very, very -- most of
16 the people who were there, including most of the people
17 who have given evidence to this Tribunal, um,
18 Bloody Sunday was something that people did not openly
19 discuss.
20 Q. Let me ask you about these miscellaneous points, please,
21 briefly. Can we see on the screen AQ11.22,
22 paragraph 19. This is the account given by
23 Michael Quinn in his statement to Eversheds that you
24 have seen previously, relating to the youths in
25 Glenfada Park North apparently with or actually with
1 nail bombs. You remember the topic?
2 A. Do I remember the topic being discussed here in the
3 Inquiry?
4 Q. Did you know Michael Quinn?
5 A. I did not know Michael Quinn and I still do not know
6 Michael Quinn.
7 Q. You still do not know?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you see anything resembling what he there describes?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. He is suggesting that the man who told to put the stuff
12 away was probably a member of the IRA; was that you?
13 A. No, I do not remember talking to any young people in
14 Glenfada Park and telling them to put nail bombs away,
15 no.
16 Q. He says, as you can see about eight or nine lines down:
17 "I had not seen one [that is a nail bomb] before and
18 did not know what it looked like but I remember
19 something like a coke tin with grey tape and a piece of
20 material coming out of the top."
21 Right, that is what he describes it as?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that a description you would recognise of a nail
24 bomb?
25 A. (Pause). Well, it depends who made the nail bomb.
1 Q. Sorry?
2 A. It depends what material was available to make, to make
3 it.
4 Q. Nail bombs were made, were they not, not exclusively,
5 but were made using, for example, old coke tins or other
6 cans?
7 A. Cans, I mean, the difficulty again with a coke tin is
8 you have to use a tin opener to take the top off it.
9 Use a bean can or something. You know, it was -- to all
10 intents and purposes a guerilla Army, we used what was
11 available.
12 Q. Of course, as a guerilla Army you would use cans in
13 which to put nail bombs?
14 A. Or just tape the nails around the gelignite, yes, I mean
15 they are made in different ways by different people.
16 Q. A common way of making them, this is all I am trying to
17 establish, was to use old cans?
18 A. Yes, that was one of the ways, yes.
19 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at this on the screen,
20 the statement of John Lee Clifford, AC66.4,
21 paragraph 26. This also will not come as news to you
22 because I think you have been referred to it previously,
23 let me ask you about it, please. He is referring to
24 leaving Glenfada Park South, as you can see, yes?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Seeing people being frisked against the gable end wall
2 of the east block, that is the Rossville Street side of
3 Glenfada Park North. Did you become aware of that
4 happening?
5 A. At the time I was not aware of people being searched,
6 you know, I probably, I was not in the sight of it.
7 Q. The Inquiry has and has seen photographs.
8 A. Yes, I have seen photographs and video footage of it,
9 yes.
10 Q. You know what that refers to?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Where a substantial number of people were apparently
13 arrested, apprehended, and then in due course marched
14 off up Rossville Street. You did not see any of that
15 from your vantage point?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. You did not see that from the gap in which you were
18 sheltering over the other side of Glenfada Park North?
19 A. I was aware there were people at the wall,
20 I (indistinguishable) see soldiers actually search
21 people.
22 Q. He talks of a civilian gunman running from the southwest
23 corner of Glenfada Park South northeast to the northeast
24 corner and the southwest corner of Glenfada Park South,
25 he is saying; do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see that at any time or anything like it?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The suggestion was made, though not very firmly, the
5 suggestion made, relying apparently upon his nephew,
6 that the gunman may have been a Sticky, which is one of
7 your lot; do you remember that?
8 A. I see the reference, yes.
9 Q. Did you see anything of that sort at all?
10 A. I did not, no.
11 Q. May I ask you again, please, I asked you
12 yesterday: OIRA 1 had been the gunman earlier on that
13 day in Columbcille Court; had he not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you see him again that day?
16 A. I do not recall seeing him again.
17 Q. Did you see the rifle, the sporting rifle again that
18 day?
19 A. I -- no, I did not.
20 Q. Were there dumps available for guns as far as you know
21 in Glenfada Park North or South or Abbey Park?
22 A. It was the Bogside, it was not, you know, I mean, I do
23 not know anything about dumps in the Bogside.
24 Q. You would have to defer to OIRA 1 and OIRA 2 in that
25 regard?
1 A. I am just saying, you know, I was from the Creggan,
2 I knew nothing about where dumps were in the Bogside.
3 Q. Is there any reason why the rifle was not taken further
4 into the Bogside as opposed to being left in the boot of
5 the car?
6 A. The car was closest.
7 Q. It could safely have been taken off into the Bogside;
8 could it not?
9 A. The car was closest and that is where it was taken to.
10 Q. Let me ask you about this, please: so there is no trick
11 to it, could we have on the screen your statement
12 AOIRA 7.20, paragraph 109.
13 "I am aware of contacts between senior members of
14 the Republican Clubs and NICRA. I would not have
15 expected anything else ..."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But you assert that marchers were not used as a cover
18 for IRA activity?
19 A. In my experience, yes.
20 Q. Your statement includes this:
21 "Riots seemed to part because people went home and
22 snipers might then shoot, but it was not a strategy."
23 Was that true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You said "riots seemed to part" what was the difference
1 there?
2 A. It was the difference between a riot and a march.
3 Q. The rioters, the bricks, the harmless recreational
4 stone-throwers would part and a sniper would shoot?
5 A. I mean, the difference there -- there certainly was not
6 a march every week; there certainly was a riot.
7 Q. When the rioters parted the snipers would, on occasion,
8 shoot; that is right, is it?
9 A. On occasion, yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Finally, subject to any correction from
11 those around me, I want to ask you about this,
12 please: you were shown and asked to comment upon
13 a number of aspects of the document which, amongst other
14 places can be found at AOIRA 1.1, the Sunday Times note
15 purporting to be, I should say that because it is
16 disputed, purporting to be a note of conversations with
17 OIRA 1. Can you highlight just the top third or so,
18 please.
19 When you were asked about this yesterday, your
20 attention was drawn to the near opening words of the
21 section, including:
22 "Two sections of 16 men -- both the sections being
23 Creggan ones -- were gathered in cars at the back of the
24 Creggan."
25 Yes, that is what it says?
1 A. It was mentioned yesterday, yes.
2 Q. And tell us, please, are the numbers there given for the
3 Creggan section about right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In relation to Bloody Sunday?
6 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
7 Q. They are?
8 A. Again, I was not -- you know what I mean, I, I went to
9 the Bogside, I did not go round counting the men left in
10 the Creggan. The numbers, the numbers would be about
11 correct, yes.
12 Q. That is about right for the Creggan guard, is it, so to
13 speak?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There is one matter, I am grateful for this, which is
16 not a question of you, OIRA 7, for the Tribunal's and
17 your information. Sir, yesterday when photograph P350
18 was shown by Mr Clarke for the first time, the one with
19 the mark on the roof apparently, Mr Glasgow intervened
20 to suggest that our assessment of that photograph
21 suggested it to be a mark on the photograph. Mr Glasgow
22 has realised he was referring to a different photograph,
23 so can that observation, so to speak, be ignored, with
24 our apologies?
25 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, thank you.
1 Questioned by MR ELIAS
2 MR ELIAS: OIRA 7, as I think you know, my name is
3 Gerard Elias, I act for a number of soldiers. Just
4 three or four topics, please, perhaps first may I say
5 this: I am grateful to you and to the legal teams who
6 provided the information we sought yesterday evening, it
7 will, I believe, shorten matters and I am grateful to
8 all for that.
9 May I ask you this first of all, please: the rifle
10 that you saw with which you say you were familiar, that
11 could be easily dismantled, could it, in the sense of
12 being broken to be carried about?
13 A. It could have been actually taken into two parts, yes.
14 Q. What would be involved in splitting it into two parts?
15 A. Removing a locking screw, from what I can remember.
16 Q. A locking screw, so the work of a moment or two?
17 A. No, I think it would have been a bit more than a moment
18 or two.
19 Q. A few seconds, a minute, tell us how long?
20 LORD SAVILLE: Perhaps you could tell me, what would be
21 involved in dismantling a rifle of that kind? You are
22 going to remove the barrel, are you, and the trigger
23 mechanism from the stock, is that what --
24 A. Yes.
25 LORD SAVILLE: How would you do that?
1 A. From what I recall there were two -- there were
2 a locking nut on the stock and a locking nut on the --
3 at the front of the stock.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Which fastened the stock to the barrel and
5 trigger mechanism?
6 A. As far as I am aware. I had never taken this particular
7 weapon apart, but that is my assumption.
8 MR ELIAS: Certainly while you were, as you claim, with the
9 persons who had that gun, no attempt was made to
10 dismantle it?
11 A. At that point it had already been seen and there was no
12 point dismantling it.
13 Q. When it was put into the car, it was put incomplete, as
14 far as you were aware?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. One other matter, on your arrival at the point where you
17 saw the rifle, did you ask any of your colleagues: did
18 you get one of them or anything like that?
19 A. I, I cannot recall saying something like that.
20 Q. Let me turn to your approach to this Tribunal. We have
21 now been provided with the history of it. I do not
22 repeat it, it has been gone through briefly, but it was
23 in May of this year that you began the process,
24 effectively, of making what we call the Eversheds
25 statement, the statement to this Inquiry which came
1 through, according to the note we have, on
2 10th November.
3 Were you here for the evidence of OIRA 2?
4 A. I think I was here for a while in the afternoon.
5 Q. Were you here for any part of the evidence of
6 Martin McGuinness?
7 A. Not at all.
8 Q. So you were here for the evidence of OIRA 2, for part of
9 his evidence at least; were you here for the evidence of
10 OIRA 1?
11 A. Part of the evidence, yes.
12 Q. Having made your Eversheds statement, did you have any
13 group meeting, that is to say you and other OIRAs, if
14 I may call them that, you together with other members or
15 former members of the IRA?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You are sure about that; are you?
18 A. Did I meet and talk with any of them?
19 Q. Did you meet, let us forget the talk?
20 A. Did we meet?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Yes, I would have met people in, in the lobby here.
23 Q. Was there a group meeting which included you, OIRA 7,
24 and other OIRA members?
25 A. Not that I was at.
1 Q. Because I simply read a note from your solicitor which
2 has been provided to us in the information that has come
3 this morning:
4 "I can confirm that the first group meeting
5 including OIRA 7 occurred after the interview with
6 Eversheds."
7 Do you know what that means?
8 A. I thought you meant the subversive meeting. Yes, we met
9 with the instructing solicitor.
10 Q. Who is "we"?
11 A. Um, myself and --
12 Q. Give no names, the ciphers?
13 A. I think, um, OIRA 3, OIRA 4 and OIRA 5, from, from my
14 recollection.
15 Q. When was this; how far are you having to remember?
16 A. I do not think -- it was not that long ago.
17 Q. Are we talking about days or weeks; how long before you
18 signed your statement on 10th November, if you like?
19 A. I think, I think it may have been before that. Yes,
20 I think it was before that, but I am not sure how long
21 before that.
22 Q. It may have been nine or ten days ago or perhaps
23 a little longer?
24 A. Yes, it may have been, yes.
25 Q. Who was there, is the question I am asking you?
1 A. I just told you who was there.
2 Q. You seem a little doubtful about it?
3 A. Sorry, I am looking at ... I know OIRA 3 was there;
4 OIRA 4 was there; OIRA 5 was there and, um, --
5 Q. Without giving any names, were there any other, as you
6 might describe them, former colleagues who have not got
7 ciphers, present?
8 A. Yes, there was one, yes.
9 Q. A former member of the IRA, in other words, who is not
10 ciphered who is not coming forward to this Tribunal?
11 A. No, he is not ciphered and he is coming forward to this
12 Tribunal.
13 Q. He is coming forward but does not yet have a cipher,
14 that is your understanding?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You will not give any name?
17 A. No, I will not. From what I am aware, the other person
18 who was there is -- has given a statement to the
19 Inquiry; is coming forward and was the quartermaster.
20 Q. We are talking of Mr Tester?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Anyone else who was not falling into that category, any
23 other former colleagues?
24 A. No.
25 Q. That was one meeting, in the note that we have been
1 provided with, this was confirmed as the first group
2 meeting. How many meetings of that kind were there?
3 A. A group -- you mean the whole group?
4 Q. Or any parts of it?
5 A. That is one that I was at.
6 Q. Yes?
7 A. There may have been another one that I was at with --
8 I think it was one meeting I was definitely at is the
9 one that I have outlined.
10 Q. There may have been another. Have you really forgotten?
11 A. No, no, no, in the process of having discussions with
12 our instructing solicitor, um, it -- you know, I, I have
13 passed people who have been in and come out and I have
14 gone in to have words with the, with the solicitor.
15 Q. I think you understand what is meant by "group meeting"?
16 A. Yes, I have not been at another group meeting other than
17 the meeting that is outlined there, as far as I am
18 aware.
19 Q. I do not want you to tell us for one moment what was
20 said at any meeting you have indicated, can you just
21 briefly tell us what was the purpose of you meeting as
22 a group?
23 A. The purpose of meeting as a group was because, um, for
24 my part, I needed to know what the position was with
25 regard to the Attorney General's undertaking to the
1 Inquiry's guarantee of anonymity and to the method that
2 the Inquiry would use. I needed to know what way this
3 Inquiry worked.
4 Q. Outside that meeting and on that occasion when you would
5 have been with your colleagues, did you in fact discuss
6 with them or any of them any aspect of the evidence you
7 or they were to give?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Not at all?
10 A. I am saying -- is there an inference that the
11 evidence -- you know, if you tell me what you are
12 looking for, I will give you an answer to it.
13 Q. What I am looking for is the truth: did you outside the
14 meeting discuss with any of your colleagues, former
15 colleagues, any aspect of the evidence that you or they
16 were going to give?
17 A. I did not discuss any aspect of the evidence that
18 I would give.
19 Q. Did you hear or discuss with the others any aspect of
20 the evidence that they were going to give?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So there was no mention whatever of any aspect of what
23 may have happened on Bloody Sunday outside the meeting
24 when you were no doubt with your colleagues or some of
25 them before or after it; is that right?
1 A. Which is why I continually have to refer to the list to
2 find out who is who.
3 Q. I do not understand that answer at all?
4 A. I mean, I needed to know what way the Inquiry worked.
5 Q. Yes?
6 A. I needed to know who was going to be there. I mean,
7 even now I am still having confusion over the ciphers as
8 to who is supposed to be who and those were things that
9 may have been discussed.
10 Q. Let me ask it again so the Tribunal can be clear about
11 it: you are telling the Tribunal, are you, outside the
12 formal meeting with your solicitor, that you have not
13 discussed or have discussed with you or heard others of
14 your colleagues discussing the events of Bloody Sunday
15 and what may or may not be said to this Inquiry?
16 A. No, I have not because I believe my evidence stands on
17 its own.
18 Q. In July this Tribunal was told that you had contacted
19 your former colleagues at the time that you were
20 arranging to come forward; is that right, did you
21 contact your former colleagues?
22 A. I said I contacted my former colleagues.
23 Q. This is a document put in for your application in
24 relation to anonymity, in which it says:
25 "After receiving cross correspondence from the
1 Tribunal requesting his assistance, he has contacted his
2 former colleagues and arranged to come forward to the
3 Tribunal."
4 My question is simple --
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Which colleagues did you contact, do not give names,
7 give ciphers if you know them or tell us if it is
8 someone outside the ciphers?
9 A. I think it was: OIRA 3.
10 Q. You contacted OIRA 3. Was the reason for that that you
11 knew at the time that he was your officer commanding?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you need some form or some sort of approval or
14 consent that you should come forward?
15 A. No, I needed the name of the solicitor that I should
16 contact.
17 Q. That was the sole reason you contacted him; was it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you go and see him?
20 A. Go and see the solicitor?
21 Q. Did you go and see OIRA 3?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. How did you contact him?
24 A. Someone actually gave me his phone number and
25 I contacted him by telephone.
1 Q. When the document refers to contacting former
2 colleagues, did you contact anyone else?
3 A. I mean, that was sufficient for me to be able, to be
4 able to get in touch with my solicitor.
5 Q. I do not think it answers the question, OIRA 7, does it?
6 Did you contact anyone else?
7 A. Yes, I may have contacted someone looking for --
8 actually, I did contact looking for a telephone number
9 for the solicitor.
10 Q. Is that one of the other OIRAs?
11 A. It is, yes.
12 Q. Which one?
13 A. OIRA 1.
14 Q. OIRA 1. So you contacted OIRA 1 and you contacted
15 OIRA 3?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you contacted them, did you discuss any aspect of
18 the events of the day?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. When you put in, through your solicitors, of course,
21 your application for anonymity, did you reveal to the
22 Tribunal the fact that, as I think you told us
23 yesterday, over 15 years you had been, in your own name,
24 apparently putting forward papers and material, giving
25 interviews in relation to Bloody Sunday, to the media;
1 was that disclosed to the Tribunal?
2 A. I think there was, there was a disclosure that my name
3 was in the public domain, yes.
4 Q. Can I come to my straight question: did you disclose to
5 the Tribunal the detail of the programmes and other
6 writings which you had conducted?
7 A. Today I did, yes, I did, yes.
8 Q. Did you disclose this in July when you made your
9 application for anonymity?
10 A. I was not aware that I had to.
11 Q. Is the answer: no?
12 A. I, I remember a reference to my name being in the public
13 domain.
14 Q. So you were aware of the issue?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. OIRA 7. Did you disclose to the Tribunal when you were
17 aware of the issue what you must have realised were
18 material facts: that you had been involved with the
19 media, as you told us yesterday, for 15 years, operating
20 in your own name, providing interviews and papers; did
21 you disclose that fact, yes or no?
22 A. I cannot recall.
23 Q. You cannot recall?
24 A. If it, if it says I did, then I did, if it says I did
25 not, then I did not.
1 Q. Others probably know the answer to the question. It is
2 the position, is it, that you had provided material --
3 that is interviews and papers in your own name to
4 various aspects of the media, various companies and the
5 list that you have given the Tribunal today is a list of
6 some of those programmes to which you have contributed?
7 A. It is a list of my recollection, yes.
8 Q. And that will involve with it, will it, interviews or
9 perhaps papers written by you which you have supplied?
10 A. Yes, some of them, yes.
11 Q. May we go, please, to paragraph 24 of your current
12 statement. We find that at page 5 of your statement,
13 OIRA 7.5, paragraph 24. This is where you make
14 reference, you recall, to throwing stones yourself:
15 "I threw stones myself".
16 You have it in hard copy, it will be easier for you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you have the reference?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. "I threw stones myself and the photograph annexed to the
21 statement shows a person I believe to be me near the
22 front of the crowd. I do not know why I got so near the
23 front, but it was probably just a short burst of
24 over-enthusiasm."
25 And so on.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As we have discovered, of course, the photograph is not
3 annexed to your statement, but you had seen, by the time
4 you made this statement, undoubtedly a photograph of
5 yourself towards the front of the crowd?
6 A. A photograph of a person I believed to have been me,
7 yes.
8 Q. Of course. You were then quite distinctive in terms of
9 your height; were you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The note which has come from Eversheds who carried out
12 the interviews, which I think now everyone has, is that
13 you had a two-day interview, or an interview which
14 spanned two days; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You saw a Mr Jones and a Mr Holloway. Mr Holloway's
17 notes in respect of the photograph referred to this
18 paragraph, suggest this, the notes say:
19 "I have a picture of me in William Street which is
20 on a CD ROM which shows me at the front of the
21 confrontation with the soldiers at the barricade in
22 William Street. I will make this available to the
23 Inquiry."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So what photograph did you have?
1 A. Um, it is not a photograph, it is actually a piece of,
2 it is a piece of video archive and it is the same piece
3 of video archive that we viewed this morning.
4 Q. Very well, we will come to that. Just so we are clear
5 about it, was it a piece of video archive that you had
6 or you had seen before seeing Eversheds?
7 A. It is a piece of video archive off a CD ROM that I have.
8 Q. So you have the CD ROM?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You have had it for donkey's years, have you?
11 A. Yes, I think I have had it for about three years, yes.
12 Q. Over three years?
13 A. For about three years.
14 Q. The reason you had that CD ROM with the video on it was
15 because you knew that you were in it?
16 A. No, the reason why I had the CD ROM with the video on it
17 is because it was produced by the BBC and the Community
18 Relations Council and it was called "A Stage Apart" and
19 it was based on a programme done by the BBC over three
20 series. I found the programme to be fascinating, that
21 is the reason why I got the CD ROM.
22 Q. The programme was fascinating, you got the CD ROM and
23 you told Eversheds that you appeared in that video clip
24 on a CD ROM which you had in your possession?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So you did not have any serious doubt at that stage that
2 the person in the video was you?
3 A. At that point I had seen the video on a two-inch
4 multimedia screen, it is a very, very small screen, it
5 pops up in the computer.
6 Q. This fascinating BBC programme you had seen on
7 a two-inch television screen?
8 A. On a media player which is part of the main screen of a,
9 of a computer VDU.
10 Q. I follow, never seen it on a full screen, had you?
11 A. Never seen it in film, no.
12 Q. But you nonetheless told Eversheds that you had that and
13 it was you throwing stones at the front?
14 A. I believed it was me, yes.
15 Q. Let us move on, then, and look further on in your
16 statement to what you said about the video clip, please.
17 Go to paragraph 131 which is on OIRA 7.22,
18 paragraph 131, please. This paragraph begins with the
19 words:
20 "I have been shown video 3."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That is true no doubt, is it, you were shown video 3?
23 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
24 Q. You have not forgotten that; have you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You were shown it on a television screen?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What you said about it is:
4 "I think this may show me at the barrier 14 wearing
5 a light grey tweed jacket which I remember
6 I had: I remember the jacket because it was bought for
7 a religious retreat the previous year. I am shown
8 wearing dark trousers. I never wore jeans [which would
9 have been lighter presumably]. I am shown wearing dark
10 trousers, I also was wearing a light-coloured shirt.
11 I think this is me throwing stones. I confirm I did not
12 wear glasses then."
13 Because the individual in the video clip does not
14 have glasses on. So again --
15 A. Yes, I said that.
16 Q. Of course, you have seen that video again --
17 A. It is the same piece of video.
18 Q. -- this morning, have you not?
19 A. It is the same piece of video -- yes, it is the exact
20 same piece.
21 Q. Can we play it through at normal speed so that everyone
22 will know what it is we are referring to. I am asking
23 it be played through on the video, I think it is set up.
24 You can see yourself come forward, we can see the
25 clothing.
1 (Video Played)
2 Take it back three or four frames, please, you can
3 follow now the person who I suggest is you, now being
4 taken back in this video. Can we go back to the start
5 of it. Stop there. You can pick up the individual that
6 I am referring to now, can you not, to the right of the
7 screen. That is the person you have identified as
8 believing may be you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I want you to watch this video through, watch the light
11 on the sleeve, yesterday you referred possibly to an
12 armband, note the light on the back of the jacket as
13 that individual turns after throwing the stone. Perhaps
14 we will play it through from start to finish.
15 That is you, is it not?
16 A. It is the person I believed to have been me. I now have
17 doubts about whether it is or is not.
18 Q. What gives you the greater doubt today?
19 A. Because I have -- for the first time I have actually
20 watched that piece of video through about ten times in
21 a row on a very, very slow speed. Um, the guy looks
22 certainly heavier than I was, probably by a stone,
23 a stone and a half, by comparison to the photograph that
24 Mr Lawson showed me yesterday and I actually referred to
25 the photograph beside that as having been a guy whose
1 face was fatter than mines. The gait is something that
2 looks ungainly and I was fairly fit and fairly athletic
3 then.
4 Q. A stone or more heavier, an ungainly gait, what made you
5 pick yourself out on the two-inch video when you --
6 A. On the two-inch video, it was the tallest; the other
7 reason is that there do not appear to be enough people
8 around there to put me where I believe I was on
9 Bloody Sunday, there were more people, I remember there
10 being more people.
11 Q. More people. Looking at that photograph are you saying
12 to the Tribunal: it is not you?
13 A. I am also looking at that hair again and I am saying
14 that hair is definitely not me.
15 Q. It is not you now, is it, not a question of any belief
16 any more, it is not you, is that the position?
17 A. It is the first time I have seen that video played
18 through so slowly, you can almost get it a frame at
19 a time.
20 Q. How many times did you ask Eversheds to play it?
21 A. Um, I think the once just to clarify which piece of
22 video that I was talking about.
23 Q. So when they showed it to you and you were able to refer
24 to the light grey tweed jacket, bought for the religious
25 retreat, the dark trousers, the light-coloured shirt,
1 not wearing glasses, you picked all that up from the one
2 sighting of it; did you?
3 A. If you had asked me -- if I had not seen this and you
4 had asked me what I was wearing, I probably would have
5 told you I do not know what I was wearing.
6 Q. So you picked all that up, you say, do you, from one
7 viewing of it?
8 A. As I said, I had seen it previously; I was aware of
9 a light jacket. I mean, I had the thing myself; it had
10 also been something that had been on television, um.
11 I actually had my own brother look at photographs
12 something like this yesterday.
13 Q. Did you?
14 A. To try and identify me in it. He said "It looks like
15 you but that is definitely not you."
16 Q. Which photographs was your brother looking at, something
17 like this?
18 A. The photographs that the Inquiry supplied me with
19 yesterday because my brother is a year, a year and
20 a half older than me, would have been more familiar with
21 what I looked like than I was myself.
22 Q. Is the position, OIRA 7, that you realise -- and have
23 realised as time has gone on with this Inquiry the
24 difficulty of being at the barricade, as I suggest you
25 are on this video, at the time at which you must be
1 there: that is to say when there are not too many other
2 people around because that might cause problems for
3 you -- let me explain the position to you, because that
4 might cause problems for you in terms of the timescale
5 of getting to Columbcille Court in order to be with your
6 colleagues when, it is suggested, the shot was fired?
7 A. No, I in my statement to Eversheds I say there were --
8 I mean, I did not say there were 20 or 30 people in it.
9 Q. I move on, paragraph 66, AOIRA 7.13, please,
10 paragraph 66.
11 "Seeing photograph P428 has shocked me. I believe
12 that I can see myself in this photograph."
13 When was the first time you had seen this
14 photograph, at the Eversheds interview or had you seen
15 it before?
16 A. With Eversheds.
17 Q. You say you believe you were at the point of running.
18 You were shocked to see yourself in a photograph; is
19 that the position?
20 A. I was shocked to see, based on the identification that
21 I had made earlier, someone who looked markedly the same
22 who I had believed to be me. It was, it was shocking,
23 I mean, to actually put yourself in the position where
24 you are standing with, standing a few feet from someone,
25 and I believed, I believed then that that was me, um, to
1 put yourself in a position where you are standing eight
2 or ten feet from a young boy just after being shot.
3 Q. Put yourself within eight or ten feet of ... , I did not
4 quite catch the end of the answer.
5 A. Of a young boy being shot.
6 Q. Being shot?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You took P428 when you saw it, did you, as the moment
9 when Joe Mahon was shot?
10 A. That is I believed that photograph --
11 Q. That is how you interpreted at the time, rightly or
12 wrongly?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could we have P428 on the screen, please. Can we
15 enlarge the centre of that photograph, the three persons
16 in particular, one by the fence and the two in the
17 centre. It is a bit grainy perhaps on the screen but
18 certainly the hard copy -- no doubt you will have seen
19 it -- indicates that the jacket and the trousers and the
20 colour shirt --
21 A. Actually, I have not seen a hard copy.
22 Q. You have never seen a hard copy, have you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. I am sure that can be rectified, I am sure the Tribunal
25 have a good copy of that photograph. I will move on,
1 that can be brought, it can be checked. Mr Moss has
2 a copy. Thank you very much. (Handed)
3 It would seem to be the same religious retreat
4 jacket; would it not?
5 A. It would appear to be a jacket similar to the one in the
6 earlier frame, yes.
7 Q. The dark trousers and what seems to be the top of
8 a white or light-coloured shirt?
9 A. And on this it looks like long hair.
10 Q. You identified that as yourself to Eversheds?
11 A. As a person who I believed to be me and -- I have the
12 statement in front of me.
13 Q. Yes, as the person you believed to be you?
14 A. Yes, based on the earlier identification, yes.
15 Q. I do not quite understand what you mean by "based on the
16 earlier identification"?
17 A. I am trying to think of an analogy --
18 Q. Did you see the video first or was this video shown to
19 you first?
20 A. I saw the video first.
21 Q. Because the video is not referred to until much much
22 later in the statement, as we know?
23 A. I saw the video first.
24 Q. Having seen the video, you are then shown this
25 photograph and you say, "Gosh, that is amazing"?
1 A. There is an association because of the style of dress.
2 Q. When you looked at that photograph, being questioned by
3 Eversheds, did you say to yourself: well, that is rather
4 amazing, but it obviously cannot be me; one, because it
5 is going in the wrong direction and I have told you,
6 Eversheds, which way I was going, I was going from north
7 to south and, two, the person in that photograph is
8 obviously carrying something under a coat or something
9 of that kind and I did not have a coat and was not
10 carrying anything?
11 A. You see, I do not -- you know, I looked at that and
12 I was not aware that the person was carrying -- was
13 supposed to be carrying anything.
14 Q. Let us go back to the full photograph on the screen, and
15 you have the hard copy there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There is not any doubt, OIRA 7, is there, that the
18 individual in that photograph with the white jacket is
19 carrying something?
20 A. There is something in the photograph, yes.
21 Q. Yes?
22 A. You know, I mean, if you look further back here you are
23 going to see extended images of some of the people that
24 are by the wall as well. It could be somebody smaller
25 running in front.
1 Q. I am not going to take up time, Mr Toohey made the point
2 yesterday, what is in the photograph is there to be
3 seen. I will however give you this opportunity. Will
4 you care to tell the Tribunal two things, that is
5 I suggest you, and you know it, one, what were you
6 carrying?
7 A. Sorry, I was waiting for the question two. Um, when
8 I was in Glenfada Park I was not carrying anything after
9 the rifle was put in the boot of the car.
10 Q. That could not be you carrying the rifle, could it?
11 A. It could not because it is too late, um, the rifle at
12 that point is already in the boot of the car.
13 Q. Of course you have carried a rifle under a coat before;
14 have you not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And certainly that photograph of that individual --
17 I accept that he is in the distance to some extent --
18 but that photograph of that individual, it does look,
19 does it not, as though he may be -- he could be carrying
20 a rifle under a coat, could he not?
21 A. If that was me and I was carrying a rifle under a coat,
22 it would not be as obvious as that, it would be right
23 down beside me, you would not be able to see it.
24 Q. Not at all?
25 A. Not to distinguish it to that level, no.
1 Q. The second question for you, is this: the person behind
2 that which I suggest is you, who is that?
3 A. I do not know. I do not know.
4 Q. That individual in the photograph in the white coat,
5 I suggest is you. I also suggest it is more likely --
6 although I will be the first to accept, it may be open
7 to some different interpretation -- I suggest that
8 person may well have walked from the car that we see in
9 the corner, do you see, parked not appropriately, if you
10 like, in that corner?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is making his way, I suggest, towards the northwest
13 corner of Glenfada Park, that is to say not towards the
14 gap where we see the people still crowding through?
15 A. I do not know, you know, I am saying that to the best of
16 my knowledge that person is not me so I cannot say where
17 they are going, um, I am also -- this is the first time
18 I have actually seen a photograph with these two cars in
19 it as well, I have not seen this photograph before.
20 Q. I am going to ask you about the cars, I am going to come
21 back to that in a moment. Could we have on the screen,
22 please, AOIRA 1.1. Can we have, please, the last two
23 paragraphs of that. This is a report, as you have been
24 told already, by Mr Barry of The Times, saying that this
25 is what OIRA 1 told him, do you follow, and the notes of
1 interview or interviews with OIRA 1; you are aware of
2 that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You see starting at the first line that appears here:
5 "There were five or six Stickies here around the car
6 [this is the car in Glenfada Park]. They could not get
7 the thing out in time. OIRA 1 said to abandon it, and
8 get the arms out of the boot ... they did. The arms
9 consisted [and we have had that read]. He toyed with
10 the idea of trying to make a fight of it and but
11 rejected the idea. The men were not in position, that
12 is what OIRA 1 is said to have said. He shouted to
13 everyone to retreat. All did except for one -- who ran
14 up to what OIRA 1 swears was the northwest corner of
15 Glenfada, that is the corner towards William Street and
16 furthest from the flats. OIRA 1 says he got up on
17 a balcony -- on the front of Columbcille Court, he said
18 the bloke told him later, and got in a couple of shots
19 with a .22 automatic."
20 Do you know anything at all about that?
21 A. You know, I have seen it here three or four times, about
22 the incident, about the alleged incident. No, I know
23 nothing about it at all.
24 Q. It was not you in that photograph making for the
25 northwest corner with a gun; was it?
1 A. It was not, no.
2 Q. You were in Glenfada Park, as you have told the
3 Tribunal, from a time before the troops came in and you
4 went back in it after the troops came in through the
5 barriers?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Having spent some time on Rossville Street?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see the movement of any cars in Glenfada Park?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Could we have the photograph back for a moment, please,
12 428, please. You are aware, are you, so that I can take
13 it shortly, the car is now going to be arrowed for you,
14 that just a few moments before the paratroopers came in
15 through the barricades at the Rossville Street/William
16 Street junction that car was not in that position but
17 was moved to that position in the minutes that followed?
18 A. I am not aware. This is the first photograph I have
19 seen of these two cars.
20 Q. The first car -- that is the car nearer the camera -- is
21 always in that position throughout all the relevant
22 period, but the car that is arrowed in blue was moved to
23 that position. You were not aware of that; were you?
24 A. No, I was not, no.
25 Q. Looking at it, was it an IRA car?
1 A. It does not look like a Cortina or an Avenger.
2 Q. That was all that was used, was it, Cortinas or
3 Avengers?
4 A. Yes, to my knowledge.
5 Q. Is the truth that there were two cars with IRA weapons
6 in Glenfada Park that day?
7 A. I am saying there was one car that I knew of that had
8 a weapon in it.
9 Q. Certainly when you got back to the car, as you say you
10 did with the other two, there was the intention then to
11 move the car and take it away?
12 A. I think -- there may have been a suggestion of it.
13 Q. But it was too late?
14 A. I would assume at that point there was a fairly large
15 march on, on Rossville Street.
16 Q. And so it was too late?
17 A. (Pause). Well, the car was not moved.
18 Q. Because it was too late, or was there some other reason?
19 A. I do not know why the car was not moved, you know.
20 Q. I move to a separate topic, please, AOIRA 7.19,
21 paragraph 105. Eversheds asked you about the Fianna?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. "This was made up of teenagers under 16. They were used
24 by the Officials to take messages and as look-outs but
25 not to throw nail bombs."
1 Do you want to look at your hard copy there?
2 A. I can see it on the screen there as well. I am trying
3 to figure out what page it is.
4 Q. Page 19 of your statement.
5 A. (Pause).
6 Q. "I have been asked about the Fianna. This was made up
7 of teenagers under 16. They were used by the Officials
8 to take messages and as look-outs but not to throw nail
9 bombs."
10 Used by the Officials to take messages and as
11 look-outs in what situations?
12 A. First of all as I said yesterday the word Fianna was
13 actually given to me by Eversheds, my preference would
14 have been to describe a group of young 14 or 16-year
15 olds who hung around wanting to do whatever they could
16 do.
17 Q. So youths of 14, 16, did whatever they could do?
18 A. Who hung around looking to do whatever they could do.
19 Q. Yes. In what situations?
20 A. They were more of a nuisance than anything else, um.
21 I mean, they wanted to have a ride round in a car. You
22 certainly would have had young people hanging around
23 trying to pick up whatever empty shell casings would
24 have been lying around so that they could take them home
25 and have them for souvenirs.
1 Q. Forgive me, time is limited, you see, do you mind coming
2 back to my question: to take messages and act as
3 look-outs; in what situations? Let us take the first,
4 to take messages, from whom and to whom?
5 A. To go messages (as heard) -- to go to the shop and get
6 cigarettes or milk or --
7 Q. To tell somebody --
8 A. It is a local term.
9 Q. To go and find out if somebody wanted their car washed
10 or something like that, is it?
11 A. Maybe not go and wash a car, but ...
12 Q. Is "look-outs" a local term as well that means something
13 innocent?
14 A. There are always young people who were standing on the
15 street corner trying to shout out when the Brits were
16 coming, yes.
17 Q. "I have been asked about the Fianna" is not right"?
18 A. I was asked about the Fianna.
19 Q. I see.
20 A. Eversheds used the word Fianna, I did not.
21 Q. What can you tell the Tribunal please about the Fianna?
22 A. I mean, I cannot tell the Tribunal anything about the
23 Fianna, the Fianna as an organisation or the Fianna
24 as -- in its existence on 30th January 1972.
25 Q. Are you saying you do not know whether it existed or
1 not?
2 A. I am saying, you know, I was not a member of the command
3 staff. I was a member of the Official IRA. My concern
4 was with my loyalty to the Official IRA.
5 Q. It does not answer my question, does it: did the Fianna
6 exist on Bloody Sunday, to your knowledge?
7 A. To my organisation -- or to my knowledge and
8 recollection the organisation, the Fianna, as described
9 by Eversheds and alluded to by you, did not exist.
10 Q. What do you mean "as described by Eversheds"?
11 A. When they talk about the Fianna?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. My assumption is they are talking about an organisation
14 called -- that its full title would have been Fianna
15 Eireann.
16 Q. What was Fianna Eireann?
17 A. Youth of Ireland.
18 Q. What was the organisation?
19 A. On 30th January 1972 I was unaware of the existence of
20 the Fianna, I did not know if the Fianna existed or it
21 did not.
22 Q. Is that the truth, OIRA 7?
23 A. That is what I am saying.
24 Q. Is that the truth. That is what you are saying, I am
25 asking was that the truth?
1 A. I have said in the opening of my statement, you know,
2 I intended to be truthful; I swore an oath saying that
3 I intended to be truthful. I am being truthful and when
4 I say that to the best of my knowledge that Fianna
5 Eireann did not exist on 30th January 1972.
6 Q. So there was no, was there, Official, whatever we may
7 call it, no Official youth IRA --
8 A. I would say that, yes.
9 Q. That is right, is it?
10 A. That is -- yes.
11 Q. You could not join the IRA until what age?
12 A. Actually I was not even aware that there was an age
13 limit. I think I was 17, 17 and a half.
14 Q. How old were you when you joined?
15 A. I think I was 17, 17 and a half.
16 Q. What year were you born in?
17 A. 52.
18 Q. 1952?
19 A. Yes, very late in 1952.
20 Q. You were not aware of any age limit at all for the IRA;
21 were you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. There were persons younger than you in it, were there?
24 A. I should think about the point where I would have joined
25 I probably would have been the youngest.
1 MR ELIAS: Thank you very much.
2 Questioned by MR O'DONOVAN
3 MR O'DONOVAN: Sir, may the witness be shown
4 photograph EP424.
5 MR CLARKE: Can somebody put on the screen EP4.24.
6 MR O'DONOVAN: Thank you very much. OIRA 7, you were given
7 overnight, were you not, a bundle of photographs to
8 consider?
9 A. I was, yes.
10 Q. Is this one of the photographs at which you looked?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As you have explained to the Tribunal, you were in
13 William Street; were you not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You have been shown a video earlier today and you
16 examined it again when you were questioned by my learned
17 friend Mr Elias; did you not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Looking at this photograph here and having -- do you
20 recall the number of people who were present on the
21 video?
22 A. Yes, there were not that many.
23 Q. To your recollection what is the picture as to the
24 number of people who were present in William Street when
25 you were there and stoning?
1 A. Maybe around 100.
2 Q. Comparing this photograph that is on screen to the
3 video, which represents more truly, do you think, the
4 crowd situation at the time you were present and
5 stoning?
6 A. This is certainly more, um, more of what I would recall
7 the situation as having been.
8 Q. Are you able to help this Tribunal, looking at this
9 photograph, if you can, where you were in fact
10 positioned, if you can say that, the approximate area?
11 A. I think on the right of the screen.
12 Q. Perhaps Mr Frankson could help you?
13 A. Yes, you want me to use the stylus? Maybe around
14 (indicating) over in that area.
15 Q. Do you see on the left-hand side of the screen there is
16 a soldier with a raised visor?
17 A. I do, yes.
18 Q. If you move up and across slightly to the right there
19 appears to be a tall young man with rather a lot of
20 hair; do you see that?
21 A. Yes, the hair I can see, yes.
22 Q. Is that by any chance you?
23 A. That is not me.
24 Q. Do you in fact know the identity of that person?
25 A. Um, the reason why it is not me is his face is too fat
1 and the hair is not me, um, no, I cannot put a name on,
2 on that face, no.
3 Q. Sir, it may assist the Tribunal if EP4.24.001 could be
4 put on the screen. Sir, the person who the witness says
5 is not him is in fact identified on that photograph.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Yes.
7 MR O'DONOVAN: Sir, I do not wish to ask any further
8 questions of the witness.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, I am told that we can set up the
10 audio machine to replay what was said yesterday
11 afternoon in a matter of a few minutes, so I do not know
12 what you think is the best course to take. We could
13 rise and then come back and deal with that.
14 MR CLARKE: Yes, as you wish.
15 LORD SAVILLE: I think we will do that.
16 (11.55~am)
17 (Short Break)
18 (12.00 pm)
19 MR CLARKE: Sir, I am told we can now play the relevant
20 portion. I think it might be helpful if we had on the
21 screen, yesterday, Day 398, page 97, so that we can see
22 the accuracy or otherwise of the transcript, when we
23 listen to what appears on the audio tape, could that be
24 done. Could we now play the transcript.
25 (Audio tape played)
1 That will do. It looks as if the transcript is
2 accurate and we have now heard the inflection in your
3 voice. Can you tell us what you meant to say in answer
4 to my question that appears on the transcript?
5 A. I think the best way to put it was, um, I recall hearing
6 shots and then the repeat of your question to myself
7 "pistol shots" and then the rest of the answer is
8 "I still considered that there was rifle fire which
9 appeared to be coming from Rossville Street, or to be in
10 Rossville Street".
11 It is an inflection and the mention of "pistol
12 shots" in there is a repeat of your question to me.
13 Q. I have just a few additional matters. Firstly, could we
14 have on the screen P350 and could we highlight the
15 bottom half of the photograph. You will recall that you
16 questioned what was the feature that we saw to the west
17 of the electricity substation, which I am pointing out
18 with a yellow arrow.
19 A. I see it, yes.
20 Q. I think we can supply the answer to that question.
21 Could we have on the screen P203, could you rotate
22 that, highlight the bottom half and lighten it.
23 If one looks from the air one can see that next to
24 the electricity substation, to the west, there is what
25 looks as if it is a wall before the next building to the
1 west, but which appears in fact to be a hoarding for an
2 advertisement.
3 If we have on the screen P495. Can we lighten that,
4 please. This is looking from the ground up towards the
5 electricity substation. There is Rossville Street; the
6 electricity substation, the face of it, at the south
7 that abuts on to William Street is the building that
8 I have pointed out in red and what you can see to the
9 left is a large advertising hoarding, advertising, as it
10 happens, Regal cigarettes, at the time.
11 I think that the feature one sees foreshortened in
12 the photograph at P350 is in fact the advertising
13 hoarding which one can see more clearly in this
14 photograph; do you follow?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The second matter that I wanted to deal with, is
17 this: could we have on the screen EP4.24 again. You
18 were asked to mark where you were on the day and you
19 marked an area approximately within the circle that
20 I circled; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I wonder whether we could save that image as AOIRA 7.36.
23 Could we have now back on the screen AOIRA 1.1. You
24 were asked -- and may we have highlighted -- about the
25 first paragraph, and you agreed that the description of
1 two sections of 16 men, both the sections being Creggan
2 ones, as referred to in this document was about right as
3 to the number of people in the Creggan; do you follow?
4 A. Yes, that is right, yes.
5 Q. The phrase "two sections of 16 men" is itself ambiguous.
6 It could mean two sections amounting to 16 men in all,
7 or two sections, each of which had 16 men, amounting to
8 32 in all. Which of the two were you accepting was the
9 approximate strength of the sections in the Creggan?
10 A. I would say -- you mean, for the Creggan -- these are
11 not my words, but for the Creggan I would have said, um,
12 anywhere between 16 and 20 men in total would have been
13 in the Creggan, yes.
14 Q. Could we have back on the screen P428. You were asked
15 a large number of questions about this photograph and
16 your attention was drawn to the car that I am pointing
17 out, which is parked parallel to the kerb on the
18 left-hand side of the photograph. You told Mr Elias
19 that there were not, so far as you were aware, two IRA
20 cars in the Creggan[sic].
21 Is it possible that you are mistaken in your
22 recollection as to where the one IRA car was, and that
23 the car that is parallel to the kerb in this photograph
24 was in fact in the position of the IRA car on the day?
25 MR ELIAS: Sir, I think my learned friend may have meant in
1 Glenfada Park, he said "in the Creggan".
2 MR CLARKE: I am sorry, in Glenfada Park. Do you follow my
3 question?
4 A. Yes, I do follow your question. No, that was not the
5 car and it certainly was not the position of the car.
6 Q. Lastly, may we have on the screen AO82.1, this is
7 a summary of an interview with a man named
8 Liam O'Comain. Did you know him?
9 A. Actually when I knew him his name was in English, it was
10 the anglicised version --
11 Q. Cummings?
12 A. Liam O'Comain, yes.
13 Q. Did you know him in 1972?
14 A. I believe I did, yes.
15 Q. Could we go to AO82.5. He is recorded as saying, in the
16 third paragraph on AO82.5:
17 "There is an interesting twist to Bloody Sunday.
18 There was an element within the Officials that
19 definitely made a decision to open up on Bloody Sunday,
20 and they did. It was nothing to do with Bishop Daly's
21 gunman. I was on the fringes then, but I tell you this,
22 there was an element there and the thought at the time
23 was that if we can have some form of death on
24 Bloody Sunday, it might pull the Officials back in line
25 again. They might be forced into a situation to place
1 a bit more hope in."
2 Two questions: firstly, was he on the fringes of the
3 OIRA at the time of Bloody Sunday?
4 A. I am not sure in the context of this if he is saying he
5 was on the fringes of the IRA or on the fringes of the
6 area where Bishop Daly's gunman was.
7 Q. Can you answer my question: was he either a member of,
8 or on the fringes of the OIRA on Bloody Sunday?
9 A. I do not know in what context I knew him. I did not
10 know him that well, but he was not a member of the IRA.
11 Q. Could he be described as "being on the fringes" of the
12 IRA?
13 A. I am trying to be as respectful as I can here, you know,
14 if that is where he wants to put himself, then that is
15 where he wants to put himself, I am not putting him
16 there.
17 Q. My second question: if he is accurately reported, what
18 is he is saying is that there was an element of the
19 Officials, that if there could be some form of death on
20 Bloody Sunday it might pull them back in line. Were you
21 aware that there was an element in the Officials that
22 thought that some form of death on Bloody Sunday would
23 pull them back in line or assist their cause?
24 A. I find that both outrageous and insulting.
25 Q. Thank you. Those are my questions.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Lawson, did you want to ask any other
2 questions now we have heard the audio of what was said
3 yesterday?
4 MR LAWSON: No, thank you.
5 LORD SAVILLE: OIRA 7, it is the Chairman speaking. Thank
6 you for coming forward to this Inquiry, thank you.
7 MR CLARKE: Sir, I should say that we will raise the
8 questions that arise in relation to the list outside the
9 margins of the oral hearing.
10 A. Mr Chairman.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Did you want to say something?
12 A. I just do not know if it is appropriate or not,
13 but...(Pause). I would see most of these people for
14 over 30 years. Most of the victims of the families, or
15 the families of the victims and the families of the
16 wounded, I have not seen for over 30 years, most of them
17 I do not even know and I just personally would like to
18 take this opportunity of expressing my deepest sympathy.
19 Thank you.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you again. We will come back to the
21 hearing at 1 o'clock, please.
22 (12.15 pm)
23 (The Short Adjournment)
24 (1.00 pm)
25 MR EDWARD DOBBINS, sworn
1 Questioned by MS McGAHEY
2 LORD SAVILLE: I see Mr Frankson pointing you in my
3 direction. I will say to you what I say to all the
4 witnesses: I am the Chairman, the questions in the main
5 will come from the people in front of me. Could I ask
6 you to keep pretty close to that microphone on your desk
7 so that we can all hear what you have to say.
8 MS McGAHEY: Mr Dobbins, do you have with you, please,
9 a copy of the statement that you made to this Inquiry
10 and signed on 16th October this year?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I understand there is one addition that needs to be
13 made. Could we have on the screen, please, the first
14 page, AD195.1. At the moment in paragraph 1 there is
15 a blank where your date of birth used to be. Is it
16 right your date of birth is 23 July 1951?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. With that addition, are the contents of this statement
19 true to the best of your knowledge and belief?
20 A. Yes, they are.
21 Q. I would like to ask you first simply in general terms
22 about the structure of the Provisional IRA in Derry at
23 about January 1972. I should tell you in advance, I am
24 not going to ask you at this stage to give any names of
25 any individual, but in paragraph 1 you see you say that
1 on 30th January 1972, you were a volunteer in the
2 Provisional IRA Active Service Unit based in the
3 Creggan.
4 Were units known as active service units at that
5 time?
6 A. Maybe not, maybe not.
7 Q. Can you remember what title was given to the unit?
8 A. Sections.
9 Q. Section. You say that there were four of you in the
10 unit, which we should read "section", including the
11 section leader. Then you say:
12 "The Creggan unit was the second battalion."
13 Was there more than one section making up the
14 Creggan unit?
15 A. Yes, there was.
16 Q. Do you remember roughly how many sections there were in
17 a unit?
18 A. Four at the most.
19 Q. You have said that the first battalion was the Bogside
20 one. As I am sure you are aware, Mr Martin McGuinness
21 has not only given written evidence to the Tribunal, but
22 has also given oral evidence. In his evidence he said
23 that at about January 1972 there were four battalions,
24 the first covering the Bogside and the Brandywell; the
25 second the Creggan; the third, Shantallow and the
1 fourth, Waterside?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Does that accord with your recollection?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Those four together made up the Derry brigade?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr McGuinness in his evidence to the Inquiry has said
8 that he was the adjutant of the Derry brigade
9 in January 1972. Does that accord with what you
10 remember?
11 A. It does.
12 Q. He has also said that at January 1972 there were about
13 40 to 50 volunteers in the Derry brigade. Does that
14 sound about right to you?
15 A. That would be the top end, yes.
16 Q. What he did say was that not all of the volunteers were
17 active service volunteers. Could you say roughly how
18 many people were active service volunteers?
19 A. I can only speak for the second battalion.
20 Q. How many active service volunteers were there in the
21 second battalion?
22 A. About 12.
23 Q. Were there other volunteers attached to the second
24 battalion who were not engaged in active service?
25 A. Yes, there would have been volunteers that had just come
1 into the Army that had not been on active service yet.
2 Q. How many of those would there be at any one time?
3 A. Half a dozen.
4 Q. Would those each be attached to a section?
5 A. Yes, to a unit, yes.
6 Q. Would they then receive training within that section or
7 unit?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr McGuinness was asked whether he was not only adjutant
10 of the Derry brigade but also OC of the Bogside section,
11 which might mean the Bogside battalion. He said he was
12 not. Do you know whether Mr McGuinness was,
13 in January 1972, the OC of the Bogside battalion?
14 A. I cannot see him playing a double role. If he was
15 adjutant on the brigade staff, he would not be OC of the
16 battalion.
17 Q. Again, I am not asking you for any names, but do you
18 know who was the OC of the Bogside battalion?
19 A. Not in the Bogside, no.
20 Q. Do you know whether in January 1972 the Derry brigade
21 had an explosives officer at brigade level?
22 A. Yes, they had.
23 Q. Do you know the name of that individual?
24 A. Not really, no, I could not say for sure. I would have
25 an idea, but I could not say for sure.
1 Q. Do you know a man called Paddy Ward?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He has suggested that the explosives officer at the time
4 of Bloody Sunday was a man called Colm Keenan; do you
5 know whether he is right or not?
6 A. I do not, so ...
7 Q. Does that mean you do not know the name of the person
8 who was?
9 A. No, I know Colm Keenan, but I do not know whether
10 Paddy Ward is right or not.
11 Q. Do you know whether the Derry brigade had an engineering
12 officer?
13 A. Yes, they would.
14 Q. Is that the same as an explosives officer or is it
15 a different role?
16 A. No, that would be the same.
17 Q. It would be the same. Was there an engineering officer
18 at battalion level as well as brigade level?
19 A. Yes, there would.
20 Q. Do you know whether Colm Keenan held the post of
21 explosives officer at any level within the Derry
22 Provisional IRA?
23 A. The only knowledge I have that is through this Tribunal
24 and Colm Keenan's statement, he said --
25 Q. Do you mean Sean Keenan's statement?
1 A. Sorry, Sean Keenan's statement, he said he was, that is
2 my only knowledge of it.
3 Q. He said he was and he said that his younger brother Colm
4 was not. I am asking you whether you have any knowledge
5 of whether Colm Keenan ever held the post of engineering
6 or explosives officer?
7 A. Personal knowledge, no, I would not, no.
8 Q. Lastly, before we turn to more specific matters,
9 I wanted to ask you about another organisation, which is
10 the Fianna?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. There has been some evidence that there was both
13 a Fianna aligned with the Provisional IRA and one
14 aligned with the Official IRA. Do you know whether
15 there were in fact two Fiannas?
16 A. I would not know about the Official IRA, but I know
17 there was one aligned to the Provisional IRA, but
18 officially -- I could not speak for the Official IRA.
19 Q. In and about January 1972 did you have anything to do
20 with the Provisional Fianna?
21 A. In what circumstances do you mean, have anything to do
22 with them?
23 Q. Anything at all. Did you, for example, give them
24 training?
25 A. Me personally, I did not give them training, no, but
1 they would have received training.
2 Q. Do you know what sort of training they received?
3 A. History lessons on the troubles in Ireland and getting
4 inducted into the Republican movement.
5 Q. How do you know that?
6 A. Because I have seen it happening.
7 Q. Were you at one time a member of the Fianna yourself?
8 A. Never, no.
9 Q. How did you see this training happen?
10 A. Because the Fianna were affiliated to our battalion.
11 Q. Did you see other members of your battalion giving
12 training to the Fianna?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Did you ever see any of the Fianna receiving weapons
15 training?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know whether such training ever took place?
18 A. Not to my knowledge.
19 Q. Do you know whether the Fianna ever went on camps to
20 Donegal?
21 A. Not to my knowledge.
22 Q. You said the Fianna were affiliated to your battalion;
23 does that mean the Creggan battalion?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Does that mean that the whole Provisional Fianna in
1 Derry was linked with the Creggan battalion, or was the
2 Fianna itself split up?
3 A. The Fianna itself was linked to individual battalions,
4 people from Creggan would be in Creggan; people from the
5 Bog would be in Bog.
6 Q. In January 1972 how many members of the Fianna were
7 there associated with your battalion?
8 A. At the most, six.
9 Q. You say that they received history lessons?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What else did they do?
12 A. They learnt about the trouble in Ireland and the history
13 of the Republican movement.
14 Q. How old were these members?
15 A. 14, 13, they started at, all the way up to 17.
16 Q. And they were all boys; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did this group of 14- to 17-year-old boys really do
19 nothing else other than receive lessons in the history
20 of the troubles?
21 A. No, sometimes they would be used to scout the area
22 before an operation to make sure that, um, the getaway
23 area was clear; they would check out for British
24 soldiers and the like.
25 Q. Did the Fianna members ever take part in riots so far as
1 you know?
2 A. I would certainly say they would, yes.
3 Q. Were they ever directed by --
4 A. You did not have to direct anybody to take part in
5 riots, everybody wanted to take parts in riots, so ...
6 Q. Were they ever directed to take a specific role in any
7 particular riot.
8 A. No, not to my knowledge.
9 Q. Were Fianna members ever told to go and clear a path for
10 a gunman in a riot so that he could get a good shot?
11 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
12 Q. Did Fianna members ever handle nail bombs?
13 A. Not to my knowledge, they, they would not be privy to
14 that kind of weaponry, they would be too young.
15 Q. Did they ever handle explosives of any sort?
16 A. To say they did not handle them would be a lie, but they
17 might have transported them from A to B at times, you
18 know, helped out.
19 Q. Were Fianna members used to transport explosives, say,
20 from one dump to another?
21 A. Yes, to scout the way for us to transport them, you
22 know.
23 Q. Might that involve handling the explosives themselves?
24 A. No, we would have the explosives, they would not have
25 the explosives.
1 Q. Did they ever help in the transport of weapons from one
2 area to the other?
3 A. They would have scouted the area for us, yes, to make
4 sure there was no British Army about.
5 Q. Did they ever carry those weapons themselves?
6 A. We never gave them weapons, no.
7 Q. I am sure you know that one of those who died on
8 Bloody Sunday was a young man called Gerard Donaghy.
9 Did you know him?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Did you ever learn anything about his activities with
12 any branch of the Fianna?
13 A. All I know about him is what I have heard in this
14 chamber.
15 Q. The next topic to which I would like to come is the
16 orders that you received for the day, but before I do
17 I would like to ask you about the orders, if any, that
18 the Fianna received. Do you know whether the members of
19 the Fianna associated with your battalion were given any
20 orders for the day?
21 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
22 Q. Was there any one individual within your battalion who
23 was responsible for the Fianna?
24 A. The OC.
25 Q. The OC of your battalion?
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. And if there were any orders to be given to the Fianna,
3 would he give them?
4 A. (Witness nodding). Possibly, yes.
5 Q. Did the Fianna members themselves have a command
6 structure within the Fianna?
7 A. Yes, they would have had their own command structure,
8 yes.
9 Q. So among the six lads who were associated with your
10 battalion, would there be an OC?
11 A. There would be an OC, yes, and a section leader, yes.
12 Q. Again I am not asking you for any names, but do you now
13 remember the name of the OC and section leader of the
14 Fianna?
15 A. I remember the name of the OC, but not the section
16 leader.
17 Q. The Fianna OC?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was he a lad of 17 or younger?
20 A. 16, I would say.
21 Q. Is he still in Derry, do you know?
22 A. Yes, he is.
23 Q. Would you be willing to approach him and ask him to come
24 forward to assist the Tribunal?
25 A. I would be willing to approach him, yes, sure.
1 Q. Do you know whether he has in fact come forward to the
2 Inquiry?
3 A. Not that I know of.
4 Q. Do you know what he did on 30th January 1972?
5 A. The OC? I presume he went to the march.
6 Q. I would like to turn now to the orders that the
7 Provisional IRA were given for 30th January. Could we
8 look, please, at your statement and paragraph 2. You
9 say there that you had been planning to go on the march.
10 It had been known to you that two or three days prior to
11 the march that there were to be no military operations
12 by the Provisional IRA during the march. You say:
13 "This information had been passed to you by the OC
14 of the Creggan battalion, who would have obtained his
15 orders from the brigade command and would either tell
16 his volunteers himself or make sure that his section
17 leaders did that."
18 You say:
19 "On this occasion it had been made clear the week
20 before that there would be no operations on Sunday."
21 I would like to ask you three things about these
22 orders. Firstly, about the orders themselves; secondly,
23 a little more about the time and the date at which you
24 received them; and thirdly, about the way in which you
25 received them.
1 Dealing firstly with the orders themselves,
2 Mr McGuinness, when he gave evidence, said that the
3 orders were that the Provisional IRA were not to engage
4 the British Army in military activity during the march,
5 but he said that after the march had dispersed,
6 Provisional IRA members would have been free again to
7 take on British forces. Was that your understanding of
8 the orders?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you told that there was any particular time after
11 which you would again be free to take on the British
12 Army?
13 A. There would have been no specific time, the march was
14 over and the crowd had dispersed.
15 Q. Was there any particular plan for what should be done
16 when the march was over?
17 A. No plan as such, no.
18 Q. So you say in the statement that you had been planning
19 to go on the march?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Had you been told, "Well, you must do absolutely nothing
22 during the march, but when it is over, you must go and
23 report for duty"?
24 A. Yes, we would have reported for duty, yes, after the
25 march.
1 Q. Had you been ordered to do that?
2 A. No, we were not ordered to do it, but we would have done
3 that.
4 Q. You would have done it anyway?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what would that have involved; what would you have
7 done?
8 A. We would have went to the headquarters at Creggan and
9 waited for any orders that was given to us.
10 Q. Why would you have done that?
11 A. Because we done it all the time, it was the norm.
12 Q. Would you do that every day?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was there a particular time of day at which you would go
15 to headquarters and seek orders?
16 A. From we got out of our bed, whatever time we got out of
17 bed at, we were patrolling the night before and we would
18 lie on in the morning and whatever time we got out of
19 bed at, we would report back.
20 Q. Was there any agreement or order from the OC of your
21 battalion that after the march was finished you would
22 all report back and decide what to do next?
23 A. There was no agreement. It was the norm, that is what
24 we would have done, that is what we would have done
25 months beforehand, you know, so it was the norm.
1 Q. So the headquarters was the place where you would expect
2 to find the OC after the march?
3 A. You would find the OC and other volunteers there, yes.
4 Q. Did you have any idea what orders you might be given
5 after the march?
6 A. Not really. After the march you would go and you would
7 patrol the area and make sure the Brits do not come into
8 it, that is --
9 Q. Was there any plan to conduct an attack on the British
10 Army after the march was over?
11 A. No plans, no.
12 Q. I would like to ask you next about the timing of these
13 orders. Your evidence suggests that for two or three
14 days before the march you knew that the IRA were not to
15 attack the British Army during the march.
16 Mr McGuinness's evidence suggests that it was not until
17 the Saturday immediately before the march, the day
18 before, that the volunteers knew what the orders were to
19 be.
20 Do you still think you are right in your
21 recollection?
22 A. It could have been the Saturday or the Friday. I would
23 have got the order from the OC who I personally hung out
24 with, so I would have been privy to the orders as soon
25 as they were give.
1 Q. Is that the OC of --
2 A. Creggan battalion.
3 Q. -- your battalion?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you also have received the same order through your
6 section leader?
7 A. Yes, if we had a meeting, yes, I would have got it
8 twice, I would have had it first from the OC and then
9 the section leader was there, or the OC would have come
10 back and visited the sections and given the orders.
11 Q. Before we return to the question of the timing, can
12 I ask you: is the OC of the Creggan battalion still
13 alive?
14 A. Yes, he is.
15 Q. Do you know whether he has come forward to the Inquiry?
16 A. I do not think he has.
17 Q. Would you be willing to ask him if he will do that?
18 A. Yes, I would.
19 Q. Would you do that, please?
20 A. Yes, I would.
21 Q. Is the section leader still alive, your section leader?
22 A. Yes, he is.
23 Q. Has he come forward to the Inquiry?
24 A. I do not know.
25 Q. Would you be willing to ask him, please, whether he will
1 come forward?
2 A. If I can find him.
3 Q. Are you in contact with him?
4 A. No, I have not seen him in a long time.
5 Q. Are you still in contact with the OC of your battalion?
6 A. I could find him.
7 Q. Are you still in contact with the OC of the Fianna?
8 A. I could find him.
9 Q. You have said that you think that you received your
10 orders through the OC of the battalion, maybe the
11 section leader. In his evidence Mr McGuinness thought
12 he had spoken to all active service volunteers, and what
13 he said when he gave oral evidence was that he sent for
14 the volunteers and most of them came to see him,
15 although he thought he might also have travelled to one
16 or two areas to give the orders.
17 Do you have any recollection of receiving the orders
18 directly from Mr McGuinness?
19 A. No, I have not. I got the orders directly from the OC.
20 Q. I would now like to ask you about the second set of
21 orders that you received. The first was there should be
22 no military action on the march and then the second was
23 specific to you and your section?
24 A. (Witness nodding)
25 Q. Mr McGuinness said in evidence that it was he who gave
1 the orders that there were to be two units, one
2 patrolling the Creggan and one patrolling the
3 Brandywell, and you have said that you were in the
4 Creggan unit.
5 Later in your statement -- it is at paragraph 7,
6 though we need not turn to it -- you say there was
7 another Active Service Unit, presumably another section,
8 based in the Brandywell?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know to which battalion that section belonged?
11 A. The first battalion, the Bogside battalion.
12 Q. Do you say that because you think it was based in the
13 Brandywell, it must have come from that battalion?
14 A. That is the logical thing, yes.
15 Q. Or do you actually know that it came from the Bogside
16 battalion?
17 A. I know some of the people that was there, was from the
18 Bogside battalion.
19 Q. You know some of the people who were in that section,
20 who were in that car?
21 A. Yes. I did not know on the day, but I found out later.
22 Q. Are you still in touch with any of those people?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. With how many of those people are you --
25 A. I would know two of them.
1 Q. You know two of them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have either of those two come forward?
4 A. I think one of them has come forward.
5 Q. Would you be willing to contact the other and invite him
6 to do the same?
7 A. If I could find him.
8 Q. Thank you very much. Indeed, even with the first one,
9 the one you think has come forward, if you are not sure,
10 would you contact him, please, and ask him?
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. Could we go on in your statement to deal with these
13 orders. In paragraph 4 you say that on the day of the
14 march at about 9.00 or 9.30, you were contacted by
15 either the OC or your section leader and told that you
16 could not go on the march as you would be needed on
17 active service. You were to meet your colleagues behind
18 the Creggan shops at 1 o'clock and would then receive
19 your orders.
20 Mr McGuinness said that he gave these orders to the
21 leaders of the units responsible for the cars. Do you
22 know anything at all about how the orders came to those
23 leaders?
24 A. It would have come through the OC.
25 Q. And you do not know how he received them, or from whom?
1 A. I would say it was word of mouth.
2 Q. Did you receive any orders directly from Mr McGuinness
3 about the events of the day?
4 A. None, no.
5 Q. Before we turn to the events of the day itself, I would
6 like to ask you about the weapons that you had and that
7 were available to the Provisional IRA on the day. Do
8 you know, even roughly, how many weapons were available
9 to the Derry brigade of the Provisional IRA?
10 A. 10, 15, at the most.
11 Q. Is that to the whole of the Derry brigade or to your
12 battalion?
13 A. That would be the whole of the Derry brigade.
14 Q. How do you know that?
15 A. Because they were at a premium, they were always short
16 of weapons and they always needed weapons and they were
17 divided up equally among the battalions.
18 Q. Were weapons ever shared, if the Creggan battalion
19 needed another M1 carbine for a particular job, could
20 that be borrowed from the Bogside battalion?
21 A. Yes, it could.
22 Q. If they were split up, is it your evidence that there
23 were perhaps, what, three or four weapons allocated to
24 each battalion?
25 A. Yes, we had, we had no more than six in our battalion.
1 Q. What were those six, can you remember, in January 1972?
2 A. There would have been three rifles, four rifles,
3 a couple of handguns.
4 Q. Did you have any machine-guns?
5 A. We had one Thompson sub-machine-gun.
6 Q. Does that mean you reckon you had at least seven?
7 A. Six, seven, yes.
8 Q. Four rifles --
9 A. Possibly one of them rifles could have been on loan from
10 the Bog, if you understand me, you know.
11 Q. Four rifles, two handguns?
12 A. A machine-gun.
13 Q. A Thompson sub-machine-gun. Anything else?
14 A. That is about it.
15 Q. Among the rifles, are you including an M1 carbine?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many of those did you have?
18 A. I cannot say for sure, one, possibly two.
19 Q. Do you know what the other weapons were?
20 A. The weapons we had on the day, I do not remember, but at
21 our disposal we had a Garand rifle; we had a M1 carbine;
22 we had a couple -- we had an old rusty rifle that was no
23 good to nobody, but the other calibres, I am not sure
24 of.
25 I do not know whether we had Armalites at
1 Bloody Sunday or not, I think they came later, after
2 Bloody Sunday.
3 Q. Mr McGuinness said, as you have done, that the IRA had
4 few weapons. He also said that those that the
5 Provisional IRA did possess were usually held by
6 patrolling IRA units?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Is that how weapons were held in the Creggan?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Would your weapons be held in a car?
11 A. No, they would be taken out to a dump and put in a car
12 for patrolling.
13 Q. Otherwise were they stored in a dump?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr McGuinness also said that on the morning
16 30th January 1972 weapons were moved to a closed dump in
17 a building in the Bogside and later in his evidence he
18 indicated that that dump was probably not in the central
19 area of the Bogside, but on its fringes.
20 Do you know anything at all about that being done?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. Do you know anything at all about any weapons belonging
23 to your battalion being moved anywhere?
24 A. The only thing I know about weapons on Bloody Sunday in
25 our battalion was when we received the car with four
1 weapons in it.
2 Q. That was just the four weapons, one for each of you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what happened to any of the other weapons
5 that belonged to your battalion?
6 A. I presumed they were in a dump.
7 Q. Do you know?
8 A. No, I could not swear on that.
9 Q. Was there a battalion quartermaster who was responsible
10 for these weapons?
11 A. Yes, there was.
12 Q. Do you remember his name?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Is he still alive?
15 A. I am not sure.
16 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any weapons being moved to
17 the Creggan immediately before the march?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Or on the day or two before the march?
20 A. No.
21 Q. There has been some evidence of weapons being moved at
22 about 2 o'clock in the morning, that is the morning
23 immediately before Sunday morning, the Saturday night
24 into Sunday morning, the weapons being moved out of the
25 Bogside and taken up in cars to the Creggan; do you know
1 anything about that?
2 A. I know nothing about it, no, but it would not be
3 unusual.
4 Q. It would not be unusual for weapons to be moved around
5 in the middle of the night?
6 A. No, it would not.
7 Q. Mr McGuinness thought it possible that weapons were
8 moved to the Creggan and then moved on to a closed dump
9 in the Bogside. Do you know anything about that
10 happening?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could we go on now to the events of the day itself,
13 could we have paragraphs 5 to 6 of your statement,
14 please. You describe going to the meeting you had been
15 ordered to attend and being told you would be on active
16 service and being told what your duties were to be.
17 You then describe in paragraph 6 being in the car,
18 the four of you, with what you now have said are four
19 weapons. You go on in your statement to say that you
20 patrolled the Creggan and did not know what was going on
21 in the Bogside --
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. -- that afternoon. Mr McGuinness in his evidence said
24 that people were sent up to the Creggan periodically
25 throughout the afternoon to check with the volunteers
1 there that everything was quiet and the Army had not
2 moved in. Do you remember that happening?
3 A. No, I do not.
4 Q. Could we go on in your statement, please, over the page
5 to paragraph 10. You say there:
6 "We did not hear any nail bombs on the day nor any
7 explosions and I am sure there were no nail bombs about.
8 As far as I am concerned no nail bombs were thrown or
9 used during the day regardless of what anybody else may
10 tell the Inquiry."
11 You were up in the Creggan for the vast majority of
12 the afternoon; were you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How do you know that there were not any nail bombs
15 about?
16 A. We would have heard them.
17 Q. Even -- you did not hear gunfire, did you?
18 A. No, you would hear explosions because Derry is in
19 a valley and the water would carry the explosion, it
20 carries along the River Foyle. You hear an explosion in
21 Derry for miles.
22 Q. You did not hear any gunfire at all, did you?
23 A. None whatsoever.
24 Q. It is known that the Parachute Regiment fired more than
25 100 live SLR rounds, a number of rubber bullets were
1 fired, indeed the Royal Anglians also fired about 17 or
2 18 live rounds as well. If you did not hear those, can
3 you really be sure that you would have heard nail bombs?
4 A. A rifle shot and a nail bomb is completely different.
5 A nail bomb would be 10, 20 times louder than a rifle
6 shot.
7 Q. So you think even with the windows wound up and perhaps
8 being right at the back of the Creggan near the fields,
9 you would still have heard a nail bomb exploding?
10 A. Yes, because it carries along the River Foyle, so any
11 explosion would carry along the River Foyle and we were
12 not too far from the River Foyle.
13 Q. Do you have any other information that leads you to say
14 you are sure there were no nail bombs about?
15 A. Just in talk after Bloody Sunday, talking to other
16 volunteers, there was no nail bombs thrown.
17 Q. Could we go on in your statement, please, to
18 paragraphs 11 and 12. You are talking there about
19 events after news was beginning to filter through that
20 something has gone wrong. You say there that news began
21 to come in that people -- that paratroops were killing
22 people in the Bogside. You say:
23 "We decided that we must go and check out what was
24 going on."
25 Did anybody order you to go down into the Bogside?
1 A. No.
2 Q. In going, were you not, then, breaking the orders you
3 had been given to stay in the Creggan?
4 A. Technically, you could say that, yes.
5 Q. Why did you do that?
6 A. Because, as I said, we wanted to find out what was going
7 on.
8 Q. Did you also, having heard that soldiers had killed
9 people, want to take the British Army on?
10 A. Oh, yes.
11 Q. Is that why you went?
12 A. To find out -- to see what was happening and then take
13 it from there.
14 Q. You describe in your statement the route that you took,
15 if I could have paragraphs 12 and 13. You say you drove
16 down Southway, over the Brandywell, stopped in
17 Lecky Road just before the Bogside Inn. In paragraph 13
18 you refer to a map on which you have marked the point at
19 which you stopped, the Bogside Inn, McKeowns Lane and
20 O'Brien's pub. Unfortunately, as you know, the map
21 seems to have gone astray. What I would like to ask you
22 to do is to look at a map that may well be a completely
23 different one from the one you were shown and also
24 a photograph to see whether you can help to mark those
25 places for us.
1 Could we have first of all Q3, which is a map.
2 Could we have the bottom half. Do you have your
3 bearings on this map? I can help a little. You can
4 see, at the very bottom left-hand corner Southway is
5 marked. Then the Lecky Road runs in a northeasterly
6 direction and you can see the Rossville Flats towards
7 the top?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does that help?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If you are right, you came down from wherever you were
12 in the Creggan along Southway; would you then have gone
13 along the Lone Moor Road?
14 A. Along Lone Moor Road down into --
15 Q. Right into Brandywell Road?
16 A. Down into the Brandywell Road.
17 Q. And then left into --
18 A. Across Lecky Road.
19 Q. -- Lecky Road, arriving somewhere near the Bogside Inn,
20 which is there. I do not think we need save that map.
21 Could I ask you now to look at a photograph, so that
22 we can see the area at which you arrived in a bit more
23 detail. Could we have on the screen, please, P224.
24 Could we have the bottom half from the Rossville Flats
25 downwards, please. To help you get your bearings on
1 this: the Rossville Flats you can see in the top
2 right-hand corner; Rossville Street running north/south
3 down to Free Derry Corner and then you have the
4 Bogside Inn on the left-hand side. Is it right that
5 McKeowns Lane --
6 A. It is directly --
7 Q. You can see --
8 A. Yes, that is it.
9 Q. -- it is just to the south of the Bogside Inn, running
10 across Columb's Wells?
11 A. That is it, yeah.
12 Q. If you have control of the screen, can you mark on this
13 photograph first of all the position at which your car
14 stopped?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Could you do that, please?
17 A. Sure. (Marked with blue arrow - AD195.10) At the end,
18 yes, the top end of the arrow.
19 Q. Did you stop just south of McKeowns Lane, in the
20 Lecky Road?
21 A. Yes, just before McKeowns Lane.
22 Q. Where is O'Brien's pub?
23 A. On the other side of McKeowns Lane.
24 Q. Is it the --
25 A. It is on McKeowns Lane itself.
1 Q. May I have control, please. Is it the building I have
2 marked in green? (Marked with green arrow - AD195.10)
3 A. Yes, that is it.
4 Q. Could that image be saved, please, with the uppermost
5 blue arrow representing the point at which the car
6 stopped and the green arrow showing the location of
7 O'Brien's pub. Could that be saved, please, as
8 AD195.10.
9 Are you absolutely certain that you did not drive
10 down Westland Street?
11 A. Absolutely certain.
12 Q. Because you took what was really a very long way round
13 to get to the south of the Bogside?
14 A. Yes, we did.
15 Q. You have said in your statement you did not want to take
16 the risk of being recognised by the Army?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was that the reason for taking such a round about route?
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
21 paragraphs 12 to 14, sorry, AD195.2. You say in
22 paragraph 12 you stopped just before the Bogside Inn.
23 Then paragraph 14, you say:
24 "After sitting in the car for a short while and
25 talking to people who came up to us, our section leader
1 decided that he needed to investigate further and got
2 out of the vehicle."
3 You say:
4 "He had an M1 carbine concealed inside his coat and
5 walked past O'Brien's bar at the bottom of McKeowns Lane
6 while the other three of us sat in the car and waited.
7 He was out of the car for only a matter of minutes. He
8 did not go out of sight."
9 Was he walking up the Lecky Road towards the
10 Bogside Inn?
11 A. He was walking up the Lecky Road towards
12 Free Derry Corner.
13 Q. Did he go past the Bogside Inn?
14 A. He did, yes.
15 Q. You say that he chatted to different people:
16 "... and some of those he spoke to would have known
17 who he was."
18 By that, do you mean they would have known he was
19 a member of the Provisional IRA?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were some of the people to whom he spoke also members of
22 the Provisional IRA?
23 A. Not to my knowledge.
24 Q. How would they have known that he was?
25 A. Because he was known to be in the IRA.
1 Q. Mr McGuinness in his evidence said that after shooting
2 had broken out he went to a known safe house, it was
3 about 200 yards from the Bogside Inn because he knew
4 that if he went there, volunteers would know where to
5 find him.
6 Do you know whether your section leader went to that
7 safe house?
8 A. Later on in the afternoon I would say he went to that
9 house, yes.
10 Q. Is that when he went back down from the Creggan to get
11 orders?
12 A. To get more orders, yes.
13 Q. Did he go there at this time when you were all waiting
14 for him in the car?
15 A. Oh, no, no.
16 Q. Did any of the other people from the car, including you,
17 go to look for Mr McGuinness?
18 A. No, we did not get out of the car.
19 Q. Were you aware of any garages in the area of the
20 Bogside Inn being used by the Provisional IRA?
21 A. I was aware of garages, but I was not aware of them
22 being used. I would not be privy to that information,
23 not being from the Bog.
24 Q. While you were waiting in the car, did you see
25 Mr McGuinness?
1 A. When we were in the car?
2 Q. Yes?
3 A. No, we did not.
4 Q. While you were in the Bogside area -- this is after you
5 had come down to the car, as you have sat there, as you
6 waited for your section leader to come back and before
7 you left -- did you see any other member of the
8 Provisional IRA?
9 A. Not to my knowledge.
10 Q. Or of the Official IRA?
11 A. Not to my knowledge.
12 Q. Apart from your section leader, did you see anybody with
13 a weapon?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Could we go over the page in your statement, please, to
16 paragraph 16. You say that after your section leader
17 had received information from a number of different
18 people he decided that you should all go back to the
19 Creggan. Did you all go back to the Creggan, all four
20 of you?
21 A. Yes, we did.
22 Q. Was any order given to the section leader to go back, do
23 you know?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was this just his decision?
1 A. It was his decision, yes.
2 Q. You say that at no time were any shots fired by your
3 section during the day. Are you sure about that?
4 A. Yes, I am.
5 Q. Could your section leader have fired?
6 A. No, he could not.
7 Q. Why not?
8 A. I would have seen him.
9 Q. Did you see any shots being fired by anyone?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Did you hear any shots being fired while you were in the
12 car in the Bogside area?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Could we go on in your statement, please, to
15 paragraph 18. You say there that you went back to the
16 Creggan shops and there you met the battalion OC. Did
17 you in fact go back to a location that was the Creggan
18 command centre, headquarters?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That was somewhere in the Creggan shops?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There you met the battalion OC:
23 " ... who decided he needed to take further
24 instructions from the brigade staff in the Bogside. He
25 knew where to find the brigade OC and was gone about
1 half an hour to an hour."
2 Pausing there, when you say you met the battalion
3 OC, was that the first time that you had seen him that
4 afternoon?
5 A. From this morning, yes. The first time I seen him was
6 when he give us the guns and that was the next time
7 I seen him then.
8 Q. Why did you not go and find him before setting off for
9 the Bogside in the first place?
10 A. Because he would have been at the march.
11 Q. Did you know that that is where he was?
12 A. That is where he said he was going.
13 Q. You say you went back to the shops to get further
14 orders. Did you just guess that the OC would make his
15 way back there because of what had happened?
16 A. Something so dramatic happening, yes, that is where he
17 would go to.
18 Q. Did you have any other reason at all to think that the
19 OC would be there?
20 A. It was headquarters, where else would he be?
21 Q. On the march?
22 A. Yes, but the march was over at this time.
23 Q. You say in the statement that:
24 "He knew where to find the brigade OC."
25 Do you know whether he did in fact find the brigade
1 OC?
2 A. He must have, he came back with orders that nothing was
3 to happen. He had talked to somebody higher than him.
4 Q. Do you know whether, for example, he talked to
5 Mr McGuinness?
6 A. He never came back and said he talked to Mr McGuinness,
7 he just came back with the order.
8 Q. Did you ever find out from whom the order had come?
9 A. I assumed it came from the brigade OC.
10 Q. Did you see the brigade OC at any time during that day?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. Did you know who he was?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. You say he came back and relayed to you the order, as
15 you have said, that all operations were off?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. Your statement says:
18 "He came back he said that all operations were off."
19 Did you have the impression from him that that was
20 an order given at a higher level?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. You said:
23 "We gave up the car and the weapons to him and were
24 told to go to the wakes and the funerals."
25 Do you know roughly what time of day it was when you
1 gave up the car?
2 A. It was dark, I would say after 6 o'clock.
3 Q. For how long had you been back at the Creggan shops when
4 you gave up the car?
5 A. As soon as he came back from the Bog we gave up the car.
6 Q. As soon as he came back from the Bog?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How long had you been back from the Bog?
9 A. Before we gave up the car?
10 Q. Yes. When did you leave the Bog?
11 A. We were in the Bog for approximately five minutes.
12 Q. What time of day was that?
13 A. Times, I am not sure on. It had to be after the
14 shooting was over, because we heard no shots. Now,
15 whatever time the shooting finished, it was after that
16 and we were there for five minutes and headed straight
17 to Creggan.
18 Q. Do you know what happened to the car after you had given
19 it up?
20 A. The OC took it away.
21 Q. Do you know what he did with it?
22 A. I do not, no.
23 Q. Were the weapons still in it?
24 A. Yes, he took the car and the weapons to dump the
25 weapons.
1 Q. And do you know whether in fact he did dump the weapons?
2 A. I assumed he did.
3 Q. There is something I should have asked you a few moments
4 ago when I was asking you about events in the
5 Bogside: while you were in the Bogside, in the car, did
6 you see anyone who appeared to be injured?
7 A. No, I did not, no.
8 Q. Or dead?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Did you see any ambulances?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. Any soldiers?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You have said there were people around who were giving
15 you all sorts of information?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you now remember anything more about the scene that
18 you saw?
19 A. It was total chaos, pandemonium, people were shouting
20 there is 10 dead, 20 dead, 30 dead, there was all kinds
21 of stories coming from all kinds of people. People were
22 shocked, stunned, could not believe what had just
23 happened.
24 Q. Going back to what happened afterwards, Mr McGuinness
25 has said that there was a debriefing session at the
1 Provisional IRA command centre after the events of the
2 day and that that was attended by the man in charge of
3 your unit and he was asked whether you were present. He
4 said he did not recall you being present.
5 Do you know anything at all about that debriefing
6 session?
7 A. I was not present, no.
8 Q. Did you see Mr McGuinness at all on the evening of
9 Bloody Sunday?
10 A. I seen him in the Bog later that day, he was walking
11 around the Bog, but I had no conversation with him.
12 Q. What time of day was it when you saw him?
13 A. It was late on in the evening, it would be nine, ten at
14 night.
15 Q. What was he doing?
16 A. He was chatting to people.
17 Q. That was the first time you had seen him all day?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I would like now to move on to the subject of civilian
20 gunmen present on the day. You have been shown the
21 evidence of a large number of people and asked to
22 comment on it, and I am not going to go through all of
23 those comments again. I would like to ask you to look
24 again, please, at the written evidence of a man called
25 Leslie Bedell, who gave evidence to the Widgery Inquiry.
1 Could we have on the screen, please, AB28.4 and from
2 paragraph 13 downwards, please. This is a statement
3 that Mr Bedell gave in 1972 to the Widgery Inquiry.
4 I know you have seen it before. I am not going to ask
5 you to repeat all the comments that you made on it, but
6 he says that he went into Westland Street, saw some old
7 cars coming down from the direction of the Creggan
8 estate and about two dozen men piled out of the cars.
9 In his oral evidence to Lord Widgery and in another
10 document he said that these cars came down the hill so,
11 it does seem that they came down Westland Street. You
12 have said it was not your car?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know of any cars with armed men in them that came
15 down Westland Street?
16 A. If they came down Westland Street they were very foolish
17 because you were in full view of Murderers' Corner, the
18 observation post and all the cars that the Provisional
19 IRA would be using would be known to the soldiers and
20 Special Branch. Only a madman would drive down Westland
21 Street in an IRA car, you would need to be crazy,
22 I would never do it.
23 Q. Could hijacked cars be used?
24 A. Hijacked cars used by who?
25 Q. Could hijacked cars that were not known to the Army and
1 Special Branch be used?
2 A. All -- most cars were all new -- were known to the Army,
3 the minute they were hijacked there was a report given
4 to the police and they would know that this car is
5 hijacked in Creggan, so there would be a red flag on
6 that car to keep an eye for it; so, total suicide to go
7 down Westland Street in a hijacked car.
8 Q. Assuming that is right, still do you know of any car
9 with armed men in it that did go down Westland Street
10 that day?
11 A. No, I do not.
12 Q. In paragraph 14, after saying that the men got out of
13 the cars and that they were armed, you said:
14 "These men dispersed into the flats. I could see
15 them take up positions and start firing at the troops.
16 There were still a lot of people standing around."
17 You have said that your section did not fire and
18 that you did not see any civilian with a gun, you did
19 not hear shots, but do you know anything at all about
20 anyone firing in the area around Westland Street?
21 A. Nobody from the Provisional IRA.
22 Q. Did you hear of anyone from the Official IRA firing?
23 A. Well, I have heard in this chamber about people from the
24 Official IRA firing.
25 Q. Before that, had you heard anything about the Official
1 IRA firing?
2 A. We had heard rumours, yes.
3 Q. What were the rumours that you had heard?
4 A. That they fired on the Army on the day.
5 Q. Did you know from where they had fired?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Or at what time they had fired?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Or at what stage in the afternoon they had fired?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You have said that nobody from the Provisional IRA fired
12 in answer to my question, in the area around Westland
13 Street.
14 Did you know about anyone from the Provisional IRA
15 firing anywhere at any time on Bloody Sunday?
16 A. Not on Bloody Sunday, but I heard after it.
17 Q. What did you hear?
18 A. That there were shots fired at the walls, after the
19 march was over.
20 Q. What did you hear about that?
21 A. That a volunteer had fired shots at the Army sangar on
22 the walls.
23 Q. Do you know who that volunteer was?
24 A. I have no idea, no.
25 Q. Was he a member of your battalion?
1 A. He would not have been a member of our battalion because
2 we were not stationed in the Bog, we were in Creggan.
3 Q. Mr McGuinness told the Inquiry that a member of the
4 Provisional IRA fired what he described as symbolic
5 shots from an area near the Bogside Inn at a place he
6 and you have described as Murderers' Corner which he
7 said was a pill box or an observation post on the walls,
8 at the end of the day.
9 Can you provide any more details at all about that?
10 A. Well, this was, this was commonplace. That pill box was
11 fired at regularly, on a daily basis, you know, so there
12 was nothing out of the ordinary of this happening, that
13 was the norm, you know.
14 Q. Do you know anything at all about when those shots were
15 fired on the afternoon of 30th January?
16 A. No, I knew nothing on the day, I did not hear until
17 after it.
18 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at a draft of a newspaper
19 article. Could we have ED24.9, please. Could we have
20 the last two paragraphs and the right-hand column,
21 beginning with the words, "The section leader ..." it is
22 very difficult to read.
23 This is a galley proof and a first draft of an
24 article that was going to appear in the Observer
25 newspaper on 5th February 1972 because the
1 Widgery Tribunal was announced before, then the contempt
2 laws prevented this being published, so it never was.
3 This is what the article was going to say:
4 "The section leader of the Provisional IRA covering
5 the Bogside says: 'Our volunteers were under the
6 strictest orders not to take any weapons into the area.
7 It could have been far too dangerous for the community.
8 We took all our weapons out to the Creggan estate where
9 members of the Provisional guarded them.'"
10 Stopping there, does that bring back any memories at
11 all of a member of the Provisionals guarding weapons in
12 the Creggan?
13 A. None whatsoever.
14 Q. "Most of our members, at least 50, took part in the
15 march unarmed."
16 Do you know whether that is right or not?
17 A. It is definitely wrong, because we had not got 50
18 members.
19 Q. "After the shooting some of our members went out to
20 Creggan to get weapons. Feelings were running very
21 high -- known Provisional marksmen were allocated ..."
22 We might need to get the hard copy of this to read
23 it properly, I am afraid. Give me one moment. (Pause).
24 What it says is:
25 "After the shooting some of our members went off to
1 Creggan to get weapons."
2 Pausing there, do you know anything about that?
3 A. Who, who are these people going up into Creggan to get
4 the weapons?
5 Q. All we know from this draft article is that the person
6 speaking is supposed to be the section leader of the
7 Provisional IRA covering the Bogside?
8 A. Why would he go to Creggan for weapons?
9 Q. I am afraid I can only ask you whether you know anything
10 about it?
11 A. No, I am sorry, I do not.
12 Q. "Feelings were running very high -- known Provisional
13 marksmen were attacked by women in the streets after the
14 shooting, hysterically asking where the IRA was and why
15 we were not defending them."
16 Your recollection, according to your statement, is
17 that some people did come up to the car in the Creggan
18 to encourage you to get guns out?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. Do you have any knowledge of known Provisional marksmen
21 being attacked by women in the streets?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The speaker is quoted as having gone on to say:
24 "Some members came down with guns in a car and it
25 was difficult to restrain them. We got their weapons
1 away and took them out of the area."
2 We know that you and your colleagues came down with
3 guns in a car. Was it difficult to restrain you?
4 A. Who was restraining us?
5 Q. It is not said, presumably from that it means that other
6 members of the Provisional IRA found it difficult to
7 restrain the occupants of the car from taking action?
8 A. None whatsoever, no.
9 Q. When you were in the car that was parked just south of
10 the Bogside Inn, did you want to take action?
11 A. If given the order to take action, we would have took
12 action.
13 Q. Who was going to give you the order?
14 A. The section leader.
15 Q. And you would have obeyed his orders to open fire?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If it had been given, if the order had been given?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did the section leader have authority to give that
20 order?
21 A. Yes, he had.
22 Q. Was there any debate among the four of you as to whether
23 you should open fire?
24 A. There was a debate, yes, what should we do. He decided
25 we should go back to Creggan and wait for further
1 orders.
2 Q. Did anybody other than the section leader get out of
3 that car?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Of course, as you have said, there were two cars and
6 they were from the Brandywell. It is not possible to
7 tell from this article which car is being referred to,
8 if indeed it is either of them, but the speaker goes on:
9 "We got their weapons away and took them out of the
10 area."
11 Do you know anything at all about weapons being
12 taken away from any members of the Provisional IRA?
13 A. No, I do not.
14 Q. It goes on:
15 "Three shots from a sub-machine-gun were fired by
16 one volunteer in the Bogside Inn (Meenan Park) area.
17 These were the only shots fired."
18 A. Unless that is the shots that Martin McGuinness is
19 talking about, I do not know.
20 Q. I would like to ask you, please, about one further
21 topic, it is on the final page of your statement,
22 AD195.9, paragraph 25. You are talking there about the
23 treatment of people injured. You say:
24 "No-one from the Provisionals was injured on the day
25 as far as I know. I can confirm, however, that
1 civilians were often taken across the border when
2 injured in order to avoid the police, who were regularly
3 at Altnagelvin Hospital."
4 Do you know whether anybody was taken over the
5 border for treatment after the march on 30th January?
6 A. To my knowledge, nobody.
7 Q. In general terms, in early 1972, if somebody needed
8 treatment and was taken across the border, where would
9 that person be taken?
10 A. Well, on one occasion a volunteer was shot and we took
11 him across the border, we took him to Bundoran to get
12 treatment.
13 Q. Is this the incident in 1971?
14 A. This is way after 1971.
15 Q. After 1971?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This is before or after Bloody Sunday?
18 A. After Bloody Sunday.
19 Q. Do you know where else a person might go to get
20 treatment over the border?
21 A. The nearest doctor.
22 Q. Were there doctors close to the border who were known to
23 be willing to help?
24 A. Well, Bundoran was the closest we had.
25 Q. Do you know of anywhere else other than Bundoran where
1 one could go for help?
2 A. Not personally, I would say there could have been, but I
3 do not know personally.
4 Questioned by MR McCARTNEY
5 MR McCARTNEY: My name is McCartney and I appear for
6 a number of families at this Inquiry. I want to ask you
7 about one matter: the Tribunal has received evidence to
8 the effect -- from some of the soldiers -- that
9 a Kalashnikov was in use that day. Can you confirm from
10 your knowledge of the rifles possessed by the
11 Provisionals during that period whether in fact
12 a Kalashnikov would have been numbered among them?
13 A. We had not got no Kalashnikovs.
14 Questioned by MR JENNINGS
15 MR JENNINGS: My name is Jennings, I ask questions on behalf
16 of Patrick Ward. Can I begin by asking you this: how
17 did it come about that you approached the Tribunal to
18 give them a statement?
19 A. The Tribunal approached me in 1999.
20 Q. When did you make your statement?
21 A. I made a statement in 1999 to a firm of solicitors.
22 Q. To Eversheds?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know the name?
25 A. To Madden & Finucane.
1 Q. And then you made a statement to this Tribunal on
2 16th October; is that right?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. You know Martin McGuinness; do you not?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. When did you last speak to him?
7 A. I said "hello" to him about four weeks ago.
8 Q. You, what?
9 A. I said "hello" to him about four weeks ago.
10 Q. Anything to do with this Tribunal?
11 A. I have never mentioned this Tribunal to
12 Martin McGuinness.
13 Q. So it is purely a personal matter?
14 A. I said "hello" to him, that is as far as it went.
15 Q. Does it relate to the Tribunal or his evidence?
16 A. Saying hello? Saying hello?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I just said, "Hello, how are you doing?" and walked on.
19 Q. And before that?
20 A. Having a conversation with him, it could be years.
21 Q. Has Mr McGuinness ever personally encouraged you to come
22 forward and give evidence?
23 A. Not personally encouraged me, no, but I read his
24 statement in the press urging volunteers to come
25 forward.
1 Q. And you did?
2 A. I came forward in 1999.
3 Q. Yes. I want to ask you about the Bogside Inn?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were shown the aerial photograph of the Bogside Inn
6 in which you conceded there is an area at the back of
7 the Bogside Inn that has some lockups or garages. Were
8 you aware of that area?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. Had that area anything to do with the IRA?
11 A. Not specifically to the IRA.
12 Q. Were you aware of any, even rumours, that weapons or
13 ammunition or explosives were stored somewhere at the
14 back of the Bogside Inn; had you ever heard that?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. That there was ever any IRA activity in the back of the
17 Bogside Inn?
18 A. There was IRA activity in the back of the Bogside Inn,
19 when there was marches they used to gather in the back
20 of the Bogside Inn for the colour party to assemble.
21 Q. What weapons did your unit have on the day?
22 A. I remember having an M1 carbine, but the rest of the
23 weapons, I am not sure of.
24 Q. Obviously you cannot remember the specific make and
25 model, but were they handguns --
1 A. No, no, they were rifles.
2 Q. They were four rifles?
3 A. Yes, they were.
4 Q. Where were the rifles concealed in the car?
5 A. There was two in the back seat and two down the middle
6 of the car.
7 Q. Your section leader got out of the car?
8 A. Yes, he did.
9 Q. When you stopped near to the Bogside Inn?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he took with him the M1 carbine?
12 A. Yes he did.
13 Q. How did he remove the M1 carbine from the car?
14 A. He slid it up his coat, under the crook of his arm.
15 Q. He did that when he got out of the car?
16 A. He done that getting out of the car.
17 Q. As he gets out of the car, he inserts the M1 carbine
18 inside his coat?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And conceals it in the coat?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then walks about in the street with the M1 carbine
23 effectively up his sleeve?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And that area of the Bogside Inn was particularly
1 potentially dangerous for any volunteer to engage in
2 activity; was it not?
3 A. No, it was not.
4 Q. No?
5 A. No, it was not. You were covered.
6 Q. Could you be seen from the walls?
7 A. No, you could not.
8 Q. From the walls, could you see into the back of the
9 Bogside inn, not specifically into the garages, could
10 you see that area from the walls?
11 A. No, you could see the Bogside Inn from the walls, but
12 you could not see in behind them.
13 Q. And the two weapons in the car, was one of those the M1?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the other two were in the boot?
16 A. There was no weapons in the boot of the car.
17 Q. Back seat?
18 A. Back seat.
19 Q. Covered?
20 A. Covered with a blanket.
21 Q. As far as you were aware, where was the Derry commander
22 on the day of the march, the OC of the Derry brigade,
23 the overall man in charge?
24 A. I have no idea where he was.
25 Q. Did you understand him to be on the march?
1 A. It is quite possible he could have been on the march,
2 yes.
3 Q. Because you say in your statement to the Tribunal that
4 the plan was to go back to the Creggan and await orders
5 from the commanders?
6 A. Yes -- from our commander?
7 Q. Yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. As you have said, the order came back later in the day
10 that there were to be no military operations until after
11 the funeral; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Mr McGuinness, did he, as far as you are aware, ever
14 learn that you were one of the volunteers in the car?
15 A. I do not know.
16 Q. He certainly never handed out any instructions to you
17 that day; did he?
18 A. No, he did not.
19 Q. Or any weapons?
20 A. No, he did not.
21 Q. That was the battalion commander?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Who arrived with a car?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And the weapons and the ammunition?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Was he on his own?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. And certainly Mr McGuinness never met up with your
5 section later in that day, after the shootings, to
6 discuss what had happened?
7 A. He might have met up with members of the section, but he
8 never met up with me.
9 Q. Did you know any arms dumps in Derry?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Or know of them?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Was there one of them that was in an outhouse, an
14 outbuilding where entry was gained by putting your hand
15 over the top of the wooden door and unhooking the latch
16 at the back?
17 A. I am not prepared to answer that question.
18 Q. There must be many, many such buildings in Derry,
19 Mr Dobbins, it is difficult to see how that could reveal
20 any confidences?
21 A. (Indistinguishable) difficult, I am not answering that
22 question.
23 Q. Sir, I would invite the Tribunal to instruct Mr Dobbins
24 to answer the question.
25 LORD SAVILLE: What is the relevance of the question?
1 MR JENNINGS: It relates to Mr Ward's evidence, he described
2 such a dump, and therefore it is relevant to see if
3 there was such a dump and, therefore, where did Mr Ward
4 get the information from.
5 LORD SAVILLE: I think on the whole, Mr Dobbins, that is
6 probably a fair question. Can you answer it for us?
7 A. No, I cannot.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Can you give us a reason why you are not
9 prepared to answer it?
10 A. Because I am not prepared to tell this Tribunal -- I am
11 not prepared to tell this Tribunal about IRA arms dumps.
12 LORD SAVILLE: We are trying to find out as much as we can
13 about the whole events of the day of Bloody Sunday.
14 There are suggestions, of course, that the Provisional
15 IRA opened up on the troops; those are denied. You will
16 appreciate, it is our duty to try and find out about
17 everything, whether or not that took place; what the
18 Provisionals were doing; what the Officials were doing;
19 what the soldiers were doing; what the civilians were
20 doing. That is our job, and at the moment I cannot
21 really see that you would be disclosing any confidence
22 or letting anybody down or anything like that, if you
23 could answer that question.
24 A. Well, the people that kept these guns for us do not want
25 their names or their addresses bandied about.
1 MR JENNINGS: Mr Dobbins, can I make it clear: I am not
2 going to ask you for names, addresses or even the area
3 in Derry where the house was, I am simply asking about
4 an outbuilding where entry was gained by the manner
5 I have described.
6 A. I am simply not aware of a dump like that, no.
7 Q. You are not?
8 A. Now I am not.
9 Q. What was the problem, then, of answering the question?
10 A. I am not prepared to tell you any arms dumps belonging
11 to the Provisional IRA.
12 Q. When did you discover that there was another unit that
13 were armed that day?
14 A. It was after Bloody Sunday.
15 Q. What was your understanding as to what sort of arms they
16 had?
17 A. I have absolutely no idea what arms they had.
18 Q. You say that the Fianna in January 1972 had an OC; is
19 that correct?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And you knew who that OC was?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. So it was not a question that there was no such title,
24 there was a Fianna OC, and you know him?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that Mr O'Hara, Gerry O'Hara?
2 A. I am not prepared to say. Mr O'Hara can speak for
3 himself.
4 Q. He will speak for himself?
5 A. You will get your information from Mr O'Hara, then.
6 Q. I would like to have it from you as well, you see?
7 A. I am sorry, you are not getting it.
8 MR JENNINGS: Sir, once again, I would say that in view of
9 the fact Mr O'Hara has made a statement in which he
10 describes his role, there can be no Article 2 position
11 in respect of this question.
12 LORD SAVILLE: In that statement does he suggest that he was
13 the OC?
14 MR JENNINGS: Yes.
15 LORD SAVILLE: We have a statement from Mr O'Hara and he
16 says he was --
17 A. Well, I have no reason to disbelieve him.
18 LORD SAVILLE: You have no reason to disbelieve him.
19 A. No.
20 LORD SAVILLE: I think we can probably take it at that,
21 Mr Jennings.
22 MR JENNINGS: Forgive me, sir, Mr Dobbins, there is
23 a difference between, "I have no reason to disbelieve
24 him," and, "I know whether he is telling the truth or
25 not, I know who the OC was"; was he the OC?
1 A. I am not telling you.
2 LORD SAVILLE: I think in fact, if you examine the questions
3 and answers, you have probably got the answer you want,
4 Mr Jennings, so can we move on.
5 MR JENNINGS: Thank you, sir.
6 Once again, Mr Dobbins, were you aware that there
7 were training camps for the Fianna?
8 A. No, I was not.
9 Q. Never aware of that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you know a young man in Derry in 1971 called James
12 O'Hagan?
13 A. I am not sure. I know of a James O'Hagan.
14 Q. Who was killed?
15 A. No, I did not know him, no.
16 Q. You did not know him?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Were you a volunteer in the IRA in August 1971?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. Let me ask you about the age a person would join the
21 IRA. What is the youngest a person could join the IRA?
22 A. My understanding was 18, but I know people had joined
23 before they were 18.
24 Q. Derry was, and still is, a very close-knit community,
25 particularly the Bogside; do you agree?
1 A. The Bogside is not my field of operation.
2 Q. But it would be very easy to find out someone's age in
3 Derry; would it not?
4 A. I suppose you could find anybody's age out, if you
5 wanted.
6 Q. Was it your understanding that volunteers for the IRA
7 were asked how old they were?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 Q. They were?
10 A. (Witness nodding)
11 Q. And would simple checks be made in relation to that, in
12 case a 15-year-old lad says he is 18 and lies?
13 A. I do not know, possibly.
14 Q. I would like you to have a look at a document that is
15 M111.108, please, I think we may, Mr Dobbins, have the
16 original book here, but this is a book that lists
17 members of the IRA and the Fianna who have been killed,
18 and you will see the reference, "James O'Hagan".
19 Could you just read what is there about him and see
20 whether that rings any bells as to whether you knew this
21 young man.
22 A. (Pause) This person comes from the Waterside. I would
23 have no idea about anybody from the Waterside area of
24 Derry.
25 Q. You know nothing about this young man?
1 A. I have never met him, I have never spoke to him, no.
2 Q. Nail bombs, Mr Dobbins. You have seen nail bombs, yes?
3 A. Yes, I have.
4 Q. You have seen them being made?
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. Have you ever seen them being made with any type of tin
7 can, for example, a Harp tin can?
8 A. No, I have not.
9 Q. This covers the period 1971, 1972?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You saw them then?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. You have never seen them in tins?
14 A. No, I have not.
15 Q. You indicated to the Tribunal that your Fianna was
16 attached to your battalion, yes?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. And it was your understanding that there was a Fianna
19 attached to each battalion?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And that they were organised into sections?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Colm and Sean Keenan, junior, first of all Colm Keenan;
24 he is dead now, is he not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was he, as far as you were aware, an engineer or
2 explosives officer in the IRA?
3 A. I was not aware of it. He was not in my battalion.
4 Q. He was not --
5 A. He was not in my battalion.
6 Q. Right. Also his brother, Sean, who was older than him;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was he, as far as you were aware, in January 1972, an
10 engineer/explosives officer?
11 A. Again, he was not in my battalion.
12 Q. That is not what I am asking, Mr Dobbins, I am asking
13 whether you were aware --
14 A. It is the same answer as the last time, I have no idea.
15 Q. You have no idea?
16 A. No idea.
17 Q. When you were asked about explosives in the Fianna by
18 Counsel for the Tribunal, you said, this:
19 "To say they did not handle them would be a lie."
20 What did you mean by that?
21 A. Sometimes the Fianna would a got you a dump and they
22 might a knew a dump, it might have been their dump,
23 different people got us different dumps.
24 Q. Might have been whose dump?
25 A. The battalion dump.
1 Q. You said "it might have been their dump"?
2 A. I do not say "their", do not put words into my mouth.
3 Q. What would they be doing at a dump potentially dealing
4 with explosives?
5 A. If the member of the Fianna got us a dump and the dump
6 was in someone's house, then that member of the Fianna
7 would go to the dump to get the stuff for us so that --
8 Q. To get what stuff, Mr Dobbins?
9 A. To get whatever was in the dump.
10 Q. Whether it be explosives or guns or ammunition?
11 A. And bring it out and give it to us.
12 Q. So they used to go and get guns and ammunition and
13 explosives and transport them?
14 A. They did not transport them, we transported them.
15 Q. They brought them to you?
16 A. We were there with them.
17 Q. They were sent into the dump to pick it up?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If it is someone's house they would go and get them and
20 bring them out to you, perhaps you are sitting in a car?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you know this to have happened?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Has it ever happened while you were present?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know the members of the Fianna who were involved?
2 A. Not offhand.
3 Q. How many occasions did a member of the Fianna become
4 involved in going to a dump and picking up something in
5 there?
6 A. I have no idea. Numerous occasions.
7 Q. Numerous occasions?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Can we go to your statement at AD195.8, please,
10 paragraph 21.2:
11 "The Fianna had no guns or bombs and would not know
12 where the dumps were."
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. That is not true, is it?
15 A. No, as I say, that is true. The only way they would
16 a knew where dumps was, if they got the dump.
17 Q. You are saying here, are you not, Mr Dobbins, quite
18 clearly, that the Fianna have no access, no contact with
19 weapons or explosives; are you not; is that not the
20 thrust of what is in this statement?
21 A. I am saying that the Fianna, if they got a dump and it
22 was their dump, they knew where it was, for the simple
23 reason, they got it.
24 Q. I will ask the question again, Mr Dobbins: do you agree
25 that the thrust of your statement to the Tribunal is
1 that the Fianna had no involvement with guns or
2 explosives?
3 A. Yes, operational, yes.
4 Q. It does not say that, does it?
5 A. I am saying it now.
6 Q. You are saying something different now, Mr Dobbins?
7 A. No, I am not.
8 Q. Why did you not tell the Tribunal, when they were asking
9 you about the Fianna and their role, that the
10 Fianna were involved in the movement of arms or
11 explosives?
12 A. They were not involved in the movement of arms and
13 explosives.
14 Q. Mr Dobbins, what do you call carrying them from a safe
15 house out to an Active Service Unit?
16 A. Yes, they had took them from the house and given them to
17 us, that was it.
18 Q. They were involved --
19 A. You are trying to say that they were using explosives
20 and using weapons, they were not and they never did.
21 Q. They did not and never did, according to you, Mr Dobbins
22 --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- because they had no access to them, they did not even
25 know where the dumps were?
1 A. If a member of the Fianna got a dump he would a known
2 where it was because he had got the dump.
3 Q. Mr Dobbins, why did you not tell Eversheds what you are
4 telling me now?
5 A. I was never asked.
6 Q. You were not asked?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You were asked about whether the Fianna had involvement
9 with arms --
10 A. I was asked whether the Fianna had dumps of their own
11 and had their own explosives and their own weapons, and
12 I said: no, categorically no.
13 Q. They did have their own dumps?
14 A. They got us dumps, it was not their dump. I am sorry,
15 they got us dumps, it was not their dump.
16 Q. Forgive me, Mr Dobbins, you used the ex-pression "their
17 dump" on several occasions?
18 A. Yes, it was not their dump.
19 Q. When you say it is "their" dump, it was not their dump?
20 A. It was our dump, yes.
21 Q. I will ask for the last time, Mr Dobbins: you were
22 seeking, were you not, to exclude the Fianna from any
23 contact with arms and explosives in the statement you
24 made?
25 A. No, I was not.
1 Q. You were not?
2 A. No, I was not.
3 Q. But you accept that on numerous occasions they did have
4 contact with arms and explosives?
5 A. Not for operational reasons.
6 Q. On numerous occasions they had contact with arms and
7 explosives?
8 A. Yes, but not for operational reasons.
9 Q. They were going to be used for operational reasons?
10 A. They were not going to use them.
11 Q. Just one thing about Mr McGuinness and your knowledge of
12 him: he knows Paddy Ward; does he not?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. Have you ever heard that name mentioned by him?
15 A. He has never mentioned Paddy Ward to me, no.
16 Q. Are you aware of them ever having met?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Tell me this: within your knowledge, did Paddy Ward ever
19 become a member of the IRA?
20 A. Never.
21 Q. Was he ever a member of the Fianna?
22 A. Never.
23 Q. Never a member of the Fianna?
24 A. He was never a member of the Fianna, never a member of
25 the IRA.
1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Dobbins.
2 Questioned by Mr McGRORY
3 MR McGRORY: I have two short questions for Mr Dobbins, sir.
4 Mr Dobbins, just one matter of clarification: you
5 said earlier in your evidence, when being asked about
6 a possible IRA activity in the area of the Bogside Inn,
7 that on the occasions of marches where there might have
8 been a colour party, there would have been activity.
9 Could you explain, would they be in the situations of
10 Easter commemorations and so forth?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Not civil rights marches?
13 A. It would be Republican marches, yes.
14 Q. One other matter, Mr Dobbins, this has not arisen in
15 your evidence, because I think it only arose between us
16 yesterday. This is in the context of Mr Ward's
17 allegation, or suggestion rather, that he fired a shot
18 at a helicopter from the back of McGilloway's; you are
19 aware of that?
20 A. I am aware of him saying that, yes.
21 Q. Can you offer the Tribunal any insight into that,
22 because I believe you are familiar with the location,
23 are you not?
24 A. Yes, he said that he came through McGilloway's house and
25 into the back lane and fired the shot from a back lane.
1 Q. Yes, are you familiar with the area?
2 A. My back garden is where he says he fired the shot on the
3 lane, the two back gardens run together and if he had
4 have fired a shot from the bottom of my back garden,
5 I would have heard about it.
6 Q. Can you explain the layout of the back gardens; would
7 there have been high walls or low walls?
8 A. There was no walls whatsoever, there was a chain-link
9 fence, a small chain-link fence about two feet high.
10 Q. Would it be the case that if you were standing in one
11 back garden in the area that you could have seen a lot
12 of back gardens?
13 A. Yeah, the house that Paddy Ward says he came out of,
14 their back garden -- their back window and our back
15 window look into each other.
16 Q. Could I repeat the question, if there was anyone, say,
17 standing at your back kitchen window, would they have
18 seen McGilloway's back garden?
19 A. Yes, they are right beside it, they are ten feet apart.
20 Q. Would it have been the case that other people in the
21 street who were looking out of their back windows would
22 have seen McGilloway's back garden?
23 A. Anybody in that area would have seen it, yes, there is
24 no barriers between the back gardens, except a small
25 fence, two feet high.
1 Q. Have you ever heard of such an event occurring, not just
2 on Bloody Sunday, but at any other time, from the rear
3 of anyone's back garden in the street?
4 A. Yes, I have heard of shots being fired from the
5 backyard, yes, but never on Bloody Sunday.
6 Q. Never on Bloody Sunday?
7 A. Never on Bloody Sunday, and I would a heard about it,
8 because my family was home, most of them were home that
9 day.
10 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
11 MR GLASGOW: Mr Dobbins, you can see me, my name is Glasgow,
12 I represent many of the soldiers. Before I say anything
13 else, you may know that I have been, and I am, critical
14 of members of the IRA who have not come forward. When
15 I made those criticisms and when I repeated them, I was
16 unaware of the fact that you had come forward, and
17 I expressly disassociate you from those remarks.
18 Perhaps there are other people as well?
19 A. You have also told an untruth about me in this forum.
20 Q. Let me come to that, if I may. Believe me, Mr Dobbins,
21 I will, of course, give you the opportunity of saying
22 anything you like about me and I do not know if you are
23 represented, but if I do not cover the ground, I promise
24 I will give you time to say anything, but I wanted to
25 make that plain from the outset.
1 Do you happen to know, are there any other of your
2 colleagues who came forward at the same sort of time,
3 whether or not we are going to hear from them, or were
4 you on your own?
5 A. I never asked -- anybody could have come forward,
6 I never spoke to anybody about coming forward, I came
7 forward on my own.
8 Q. You came forward on your own?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. That was in 1999?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You made, at that stage, a full statement with a view to
13 assisting this Tribunal?
14 A. I made it to Madden & Finucane, yes.
15 Q. The intention, sir, of making it, was to assist this
16 Tribunal?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. I am not asking you if I may see it, because there may
19 be good reasons why I should not. You were presumably
20 provided with a copy of that statement, were you, after
21 you made it?
22 A. No, I was not, no.
23 Q. So far as you are aware --
24 A. It was in the hands of the solicitors.
25 Q. It is just in the hands of your own solicitors. Very
1 well. I do not want to take you out of your course,
2 sir, but if at some stage, I do not know whether we
3 might be provided with a copy of that, unless there is
4 any objection to it --
5 A. I have a piece of paper here, signed in 1999.
6 Q. If you have it with you -- unless there is any objection
7 from your solicitors --
8 A. A form of authority.
9 Q. I must not take this further. I wonder whether I should
10 leave your counsel to deal with it; before I ask any
11 more questions, I am very concerned that I should not
12 say anything improper.
13 MR McGRORY: I have had some conversations with Ms McGahey
14 about this issue and it would be proposed that the
15 Tribunal be asked that I be allowed to consult with
16 Mr Dobbins, if he does not finish today, about this
17 matter.
18 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Dobbins's present solicitors, they are not
19 Madden & Finucane, are they?
20 MR McGRORY: No, it is I, sir.
21 A. The Tribunal would not let me have Madden & Finucane,
22 they said it was a conflict of interest. The Tribunal
23 would not let me have Madden & Finucane, you wrote to me
24 and said I could not have Madden & Finucane because it
25 will be a conflict of interest.
1 LORD SAVILLE: I think we will have to look into this, I was
2 not aware of that, if in fact that was the case.
3 I do not think Mr Glasgow has any intention, I am
4 quite sure he has not any intention of breaking any
5 legal professional privilege that might exist, but
6 subject to that, I would be grateful if you would make
7 some inquiries because, subject to any questions of
8 legal professional privilege, it seems to me to be
9 a fair question on Mr Glasgow's part, and so for that
10 purpose you can consult with Mr Dobbins to see if you
11 can ascertain what the position is for us.
12 MR McGRORY: Much obliged.
13 MR GLASGOW: Would you like me to carry on as best I can,
14 sir, and --
15 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, please, Mr Glasgow.
16 MR GLASGOW: So that you know where I am going, Mr Dobbins,
17 is there anything else that you wanted to say about that
18 matter at the moment, or would you like to talk to your
19 counsel before you say anything further?
20 A. I want to talk to my counsel.
21 Q. I want to ask you a little more, if I may, about the
22 instructions that you got before the march. It is right
23 to say, is it, that whatever else anybody else may have
24 known, you knew in the week before Bloody Sunday that
25 there were to be no operations on the Sunday?
1 A. I knew a day or two before Bloody Sunday. As soon as
2 the order was given I would a knew it, because I hung
3 about with the OC. If the order was given a day before,
4 or two days, I heard the order when it was given.
5 Q. The words -- perhaps you would like to look at it, you
6 have the statement in front of you, it is AD195.1, the
7 top of the page, we have the paragraph 2, the second
8 half of that paragraph I wanted to ask you about, your
9 own words were:
10 "On this occasion it had been known during the week
11 before that there would be no operations on Sunday."
12 Tell me if I am unfair, but it did not sound from
13 that as if your own recollection had been that it was on
14 the day before; the phrase you used in the statement
15 that you made before anybody else gave evidence about
16 this was: "during the week before"; is that right?
17 A. Yeah, It was some time during the week, the exact time
18 I do not know.
19 Q. Do you now remember a specific occasion when somebody
20 came to you and told you what you would be doing on the
21 day of the march? We all appreciate how long ago it is.
22 A. I only found out when the OC came and told me I would be
23 on active service what I was doing.
24 Q. Your recollection is that was on the day itself, on the
25 morning?
1 A. I think that could have been the day before or the
2 morning. It is one of the two, I am not too sure.
3 Q. Were you then given any instruction or order about what
4 was to happen at the end of the march, in terms of
5 whether you were to go to a meeting or the usual
6 procedures would follow, or anything like that?
7 A. The only instructions I was given was to report to the
8 Creggan shops, to receive further orders.
9 Q. After the march?
10 A. No, no, no. No, this is before the march.
11 Q. When the march was over?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Had you been given an order as to what you were to do
14 and where you were to go?
15 A. No, we were to go to the back of the shops, where we
16 always went.
17 Q. After the march was over?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And after your patrolling --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- had finished?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you help the Tribunal a little more with the
24 patrolling: your job was really to guard the Creggan as
25 best you could?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. And you, at your level, had no details of the number of
3 arms generally that had been brought into the Creggan
4 for that purpose, but you knew that there were two units
5 doing that job?
6 A. No, I did not. I only knew there was one unit. At this
7 stage I only knew there was one unit.
8 LORD SAVILLE: I thought you had told me, just you and three
9 others in one car?
10 A. Yeah.
11 LORD SAVILLE: And that you only discovered later that there
12 was a similar unit down in the Brandywell.
13 A. That is correct.
14 MR GLASGOW: Two cars in all, covering the Brandywell --
15 A. But I was not told there was two cars, I was only told
16 there was us.
17 Q. So far as you knew --
18 A. There was us.
19 Q. -- you were on your own?
20 A. You see, the Bogside and Creggan are two different
21 battalions so they would not be privy to what we were
22 doing --
23 Q. You have told us that.
24 A. -- and we would not be privy to what they were doing, we
25 would be just given orders for what we had to do, not
1 what they were doing.
2 Q. Those orders, as you understand, were given to you
3 because it was recognised or believed that there was
4 a serious risk that the Army might use the occasion of
5 a big march when everybody was out of the area to come
6 into the Creggan?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. I do not mean it to sound at all facetious --
9 A. It probably will then.
10 Q. -- did it not strike you as a bit odd that four men in
11 one car with arms might be asked to protect the whole of
12 that area against an anticipated assault by the British
13 Army?
14 A. Yes, I thought there was too many of us, too.
15 Q. Was there any reason why all available weapons, in that
16 case, would not have been made available to units if it
17 was thought that there was a serious risk that the
18 British Army would try to enter the Creggan?
19 A. The reason for one unit is that it would be easier
20 patrolled. One unit would be easier controlled.
21 Q. Easier to control, in what sense, sir?
22 A. It would know where we are. If there was more units
23 out, nobody would know where anybody was.
24 Q. Once you had been set off to patrol the area, who would
25 need to know?
1 A. The OC.
2 Q. If anybody had needed to contact you in your unit during
3 the day, they would have known where to go?
4 A. They would have found us, yes.
5 Q. I thought you said the whole point of there only being
6 one car was that the man responsible for commanding the
7 operation would know where to find it?
8 A. Yes, he would know, he would find us, yes.
9 Q. Did you have radios?
10 A. No, we did not.
11 Q. Physically, do you know where the commanding officer
12 was?
13 A. The headquarters, there would be somebody at
14 headquarters.
15 Q. I am sorry to repeat the question if it sounds silly,
16 but how would he know where to find you if you were just
17 patrolling the Creggan in the car?
18 A. Well, the Creggan is not that big, he would not be long
19 finding us and the Creggan that day was empty, there was
20 no-one in Creggan, they were all at the march, the
21 streets were deserted.
22 Q. Were you ever aware during the afternoon that anyone on
23 the command staff was concerned to know where you were
24 and whether you were doing what you had been ordered to
25 do?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did it ever come to your attention that one or more
3 people had been sent up to the Creggan to find out
4 whether you had done what you were ordered to do?
5 A. No-one came to us.
6 Q. No-one?
7 A. No-one.
8 Q. You are quite sure of that?
9 A. I am quite sure of that, yes.
10 Q. No-one approached you at all?
11 A. No-one approached us.
12 Q. And your decision to go down to see what was going on in
13 the Bogside was your own?
14 A. It was not my decision, it was the section leader's.
15 Q. I am sorry, I apologise, I was not making you
16 responsible for it?
17 A. You said "my decision".
18 Q. Yours in the plural, the unit's decision?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That was the unit or the section commander's decision?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. After the events of the day, did anybody question you or
23 any of your immediate team as to why you had done that?
24 A. Yes, we were asked why we went to the Bog.
25 Q. By whom?
1 A. By the OC of the Creggan battalion.
2 Q. By the OC of the Creggan?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you explained?
5 A. We went down and done a recce, to see what was going on.
6 Q. You just went down the once?
7 A. Just the once.
8 Q. And came back, gave the car and the weapons back to him?
9 A. Came back, waited for more instructions and then gave
10 the car and the weapons back.
11 Q. What did you personally then do?
12 A. After we give the car back?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I walked around the Creggan and I visited people's homes
15 to find out what happened, people were shot, I knew some
16 of the people were shot, I walked about the Creggan,
17 walked about the Bogside.
18 Q. Did you go back to the Bogside?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. At what sort of time would that have been?
21 A. Late at night, it would be nine o'clock, something like
22 that.
23 Q. After all was over and every activity --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Throughout the time that you were in the Bogside, during
1 the trip that you had made down to find out what was
2 going on, you heard no shooting of any kind?
3 A. None whatsoever.
4 Q. No Army fire?
5 A. No Army fire.
6 Q. No fire from the walls or to the walls?
7 A. None.
8 Q. And none that you heard from people around you in the
9 Bogside Inn area?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Taking matters as shortly as I can, Mr Dobbins, because
12 you have been good enough to go, I think, right through
13 the schedule of the civilian evidence that there has
14 been -- we are leaving on one side all police and
15 soldiers' evidence -- in your statement I think you have
16 been taken through the various statements and evidence
17 that civilians have given and you have dealt with them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Without going through them in detail, because we have
20 all read -- we can read again -- what you have said, is
21 it fair to say that your reaction overall to that is
22 that if people say they saw armed activity of civilian
23 gunmen, they are either completely mistaken or it simply
24 could not have been you; is that a fair summary?
25 A. I do not know what the Official IRA was up to. I did
1 not know on the day, so they could have been talking
2 about them 'uns. Now, I did not know about the other
3 car either, so I cannot speak about that. I can only
4 speak about our car, where we went and what we done on
5 the day.
6 Q. After Bloody Sunday was over and you had been questioned
7 about what you had done and why and you learnt about
8 what your colleagues had done, was there talk generally
9 in the Creggan about what the Officials had done or
10 might have done?
11 A. There was talk about the Officials opening fire, yes.
12 Q. Putting it bluntly: was there concern that the Officials
13 might have been less disciplined than you believed or
14 the Provisionals had been?
15 A. No, we had no time for the Officials, we never had no
16 time, no dealings with them.
17 Q. I was not seeking to go into it further than this,
18 Mr Dobbins, in what was said among your group in the
19 Creggan, concerns were expressed that the Officials
20 might, perhaps not surprisingly, have behaved
21 irresponsibly on the day, that sort of thing was being
22 said?
23 A. That would be a fair statement.
24 Q. Did it surprise you or was there a feeling as we read in
25 some people's statements, which may not be true, that
1 the Officials needed to show that they were also hard
2 men and they could pull off something spectacular, was
3 that within your knowledge or did you just leave them to
4 get on with what they wanted to do?
5 A. Just let them get on with what they wanted to do, we had
6 no dealings with them, I had no dealings with them
7 personally, I do not know.
8 Q. Did you know them as individuals?
9 A. I knew some of them, yes.
10 Q. Some of them. Can you help the Tribunal, who is trying
11 to discover what everybody did, including my clients,
12 can you help them as to what your attitude was as to the
13 discipline that there was within the Officials?
14 A. I cannot speak for the Official IRA. I had no dealings
15 with them. I never spoke to them. I never talked to
16 them.
17 Q. All you know is that there were concerns expressed that
18 they might have behaved in a less disciplined way than
19 you did?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that there might have been some shootings?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. My last question on this, I promise you and everybody
24 else, do you know how many shootings it was being said
25 the Officials might have got involved in?
1 A. No, I do not.
2 Q. Just that it was more than one?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I am not asking for the details, but of the weapons that
5 were available to you, the M1 carbine was the only one
6 that was semi-automatic, would that be right, apart from
7 the Thompson?
8 A. Semi-automatic? It was an automatic weapon, yes.
9 Q. I am so sorry, I missed that?
10 A. The carbine was an automatic weapon, yes.
11 Q. It was an automatic. I did not mean to mislead you over
12 the Thompson, but I think you are in doubt as to whether
13 or not there was a Thompson in the car?
14 A. Yes, I do not think there was a Thompson in the car,
15 because the Thompson would not be used for the operation
16 we were on.
17 Q. You do not dispute that there was one or more Thompsons
18 available to the Creggan units?
19 A. Yes, there was.
20 Q. We are right about that?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Do you happen to know how many?
23 A. No more than one.
24 Q. We have heard from a number of people, a very
25 distinctive weapon that those who have heard it
1 certainly would not mistake it for anything else, it did
2 have a very distinctive noise; did it not?
3 A. Yes, they did.
4 Q. There is no trick to the question, I simply ask it
5 because a number of civilians as well as soldiers and
6 policemen have talked of hearing a Thompson on the day;
7 if they did it, was not a Provisionals' weapon --
8 A. To my knowledge, it was not, no.
9 Q. Sorry, I should have been more careful: if a Thompson
10 was used and heard on the day, to your knowledge it was
11 not one of the Creggan unit's, or the Creggan battalion
12 of the Provisionals?
13 A. It definitely was not one of the Creggan units, yes.
14 Q. And you do not believe that there was even a Thompson in
15 your car?
16 A. I am -- yes, I could nearly specifically say there was
17 not.
18 Q. The M1 carbine that you had was the fully automatic
19 version?
20 A. Yes, it was automatic, yes.
21 Q. That is the high velocity weapon?
22 A. Medium velocity.
23 Q. You are sure of that?
24 A. It would have been medium, my recollection is medium.
25 Q. Your recollection?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you aware there were high velocity M1 carbines?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Not aware or believe there were not?
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Dobbins, could I interrupt: medium
6 velocity, it is, as I understand it, it still means it
7 is a supersonic bullet?
8 A. Yes, sure.
9 LORD SAVILLE: You will get a crack as it goes over your
10 head.
11 A. Yes, sure.
12 LORD SAVILLE: It just does not fire a shot as fast as an
13 SLR, for example.
14 A. That is correct, yes.
15 MR GLASGOW: Nothing like the noise of a Thompson, even on
16 single shot.
17 A. No.
18 Q. We are talking about a totally different kind of noise
19 and one that really, tragically, nobody who lived in the
20 Bogside would have much doubt about, the difference?
21 A. I would say so.
22 Q. And certainly a Thompson on automatic has a highly
23 distinctive noise that really could not be mistaken?
24 A. Yes, anybody that knew guns, yes.
25 Q. It is on the page, I wonder if we can go down one more
1 paragraph so you can see your words, sir, paragraph 5,
2 the last line. You talk about your unit being the first
3 line of defence. Was there any other defence that you
4 understood in place on the day, a second or a third
5 line?
6 A. No, we were the only defence in Creggan on the day.
7 Q. Again, I am not being rude, does that sentence mean
8 anything, "we were the first line of defence"?
9 A. Yes, if the British Army had a tried to invade the no-go
10 area of the Creggan, we were the first line of defence
11 to try and stop it and get word to other people about
12 what they were doing.
13 Q. I now want to ask you about nail bombs, if I may, the
14 one sentence that you repeated to Ms McGahey when she
15 asked you over the page, or you have it there at
16 paragraph 10, that there were no nail bombs about; do
17 you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I am not challenging your evidence that you did not hear
20 nail bombs used, but when you say, "There were no nail
21 bombs about," do you mean to say that so far as you are
22 aware, from the Creggan battalion, no nail bombs were
23 handed out or being carried by anybody?
24 A. Well, they were not handed out to us.
25 Q. Very well. Just so the Tribunal can be certain: you are
1 not pretending that you are in a position to say, for
2 example, that none of the Stickies had nail bombs or
3 that nobody in the Bogside --
4 A. I know nothing about them, yes. Yes, I am not in
5 a position to say.
6 Q. You have not dealt with it -- I do not criticise you for
7 not dealing with it -- did you happen to see in the
8 schedule of civilian evidence that you were taken
9 through, the evidence about young people handling nail
10 bombs, particularly in Glenfada Park?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You saw that?
13 A. I saw it at this Tribunal, yes.
14 Q. And the position for you, Mr Dobbins, is you simply
15 cannot help the Tribunal one way or another as to
16 whether they were being handled, all you can say is you
17 heard none explode?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Are you able, first of all, to tell the Tribunal --
20 subject to advice from your lawyer -- as to where the
21 house was that you were going to meet after the activity
22 of the day was over?
23 A. It was not a house, it was a headquarters in Creggan.
24 Q. A place?
25 A. Yes, behind the Creggan shops.
1 Q. I am not asking you for it, but could you tell the
2 Tribunal where those premises were?
3 A. Yes, it was a derelict shop.
4 Q. Could you actually point it out --
5 A. It is knocked down now, it is gone.
6 Q. There is no secret about it now --
7 A. Everybody knew where the headquarters were, civilians as
8 well.
9 Q. Can you give us an address, so that we can check it on
10 the map?
11 A. Central Drive in Creggan.
12 Q. The Central Drive?
13 A. Central Drive shops in Creggan, yes.
14 Q. When you are talking -- subject of course to the
15 permission of the Tribunal -- to your own counsel about
16 whether or not the statement can be seen, at least by
17 the Tribunal, would you mind looking at a map -- Q8 will
18 be the easiest for you, I think -- to see if you can
19 identify where those premises would have been?
20 A. Sure.
21 Q. Thank you very much, I will not take up your time to do
22 it now.
23 How long after Bloody Sunday did you learn that
24 there had also been a unit doing the same sort of thing
25 as you were doing in the Brandywell?
1 A. Possibly the next day or the day after.
2 Q. Whatever they did is only known to you second-hand; you
3 had no knowledge on the day at all of what they were
4 doing?
5 A. Still do not know what they were doing.
6 Q. You still do not know?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Again I do not say critically of you or anyone else, but
9 is it possible that the Brandywell unit did come down to
10 the Bogside at or about the same time as you did, or do
11 you simply not know?
12 A. If they -- they came down at the same time as us, we
13 would have seen them. I did not see them.
14 Q. You did not see them, I am not challenging that,
15 Mr Dobbins, but it does not automatically follow they
16 were not there. They could have been round the corner
17 or somewhere else?
18 A. Yes, they could have been.
19 Q. I am trying to ask you to make sense for the Tribunal,
20 if you can, of what I think you accept is quite a lot of
21 civilian evidence about a car, or cars with guns them.
22 I ask you again, are you in a position, even from
23 what you have been told, to help the Tribunal as to
24 whether or not the Brandywell unit might have come down
25 to somewhere near the Bogside Inn?
1 A. I have no idea where they went on the day.
2 Q. No idea one way or the other?
3 A. No way.
4 Q. Can you help at least to this extent, Mr Dobbins: do you
5 now know who any of the people in that car were, your
6 colleagues from your battalion?
7 A. One, yes, I would know one, possibly two.
8 Q. Again, would you be prepared to help the Tribunal by at
9 least speaking to that man or, alternatively, giving his
10 name to the Tribunal so that the Tribunal can ask --
11 A. I am not giving no names to the Tribunal, I am sorry,
12 but I will speak to him.
13 Q. You will?
14 A. If I can find him.
15 Q. May I ask, Mr Dobbins, when you made this statement and
16 you referred to various people by rank and position,
17 were you not asked whether or not you could help the
18 solicitors by naming them or were those matters just
19 left on one side?
20 A. I told Eversheds I was not naming no-one.
21 Q. From the outset of the statement you made your position
22 plain?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It was not necessary to repeat it at every stage?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But as a result of the questions asked by my learned
2 friend Ms McGahey who asked you questions first, you
3 will now reconsider the position and assist the
4 Tribunal?
5 A. No, I will ask people if they are prepared to come
6 forward, is what I will do.
7 Q. Yes?
8 A. And if they are, they are, if they are not, they are
9 not.
10 Q. The last question from me on this, Mr Dobbins, if you
11 cannot trace them or they do not want to talk to you or
12 help you?
13 A. Then I cannot help you.
14 Q. Would you not be prepared, knowing that they would be
15 given anonymity if they need it, to tell the Tribunal
16 who they are?
17 A. Under no circumstances.
18 Q. I will leave that to the Tribunal, but I thought it
19 right to ask you.
20 When you got down to the area near the Bogside Inn
21 and parked and your section leader got out with the
22 weapon, did you see where he went?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. All the time, or did he disappear from your view for
25 some of the time?
1 A. All the time.
2 Q. He remained within your sight?
3 A. Yes, he did, because he told us to cover him.
4 Q. If you were covering him from the car, did you not even
5 have a hand on a weapon --
6 A. I had a weapon at my side.
7 Q. You actually had your hand on it?
8 A. No, sitting at my side.
9 Q. Just sitting beside you?
10 A. (Witness nodding)
11 Q. I do not doubt your recollection on this, but even if
12 you think those weapons were all concealed, do you not
13 think it is at least possible that some of the people
14 who must have realised what the car was and what you
15 were doing would have put two and two together and
16 assumed, at least, that there were weapons in the car
17 for the way in which you were behaving?
18 A. Yes, they could have assumed that surely, yes.
19 Q. Your belief is they would not --
20 A. They were not visible to the naked eye.
21 Q. They were not. The position that you were parked in,
22 you believe, offered you, I say obviously, sensibly,
23 protection from the city walls?
24 A. They could not see us from the city walls.
25 Q. When you came up from the Lecky Road, you would have
1 consciously pulled on to the off-side of the road to
2 make sure you were in the lee of the houses that formed
3 the corner at McKeowns Lane?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you see any other cars leaving that area while you
6 were there? So that I do not take you by surprise, what
7 I am asking you to consider is some evidence the
8 Tribunal has of a car leaving at some speed from
9 McKeowns Lane itself, and also a car leaving from the
10 area behind the Bogside Inn, possibly having taken
11 somebody who had been wounded away?
12 A. I seen no car leaving at speed and we did not leave at
13 speed, we took our time leaving.
14 Q. You saw no car leaving at speed?
15 A. At speed, no.
16 Q. Did you see any car leaving the Bogside Inn?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. If that happened and if --
19 A. It happened when we were not there.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Glasgow, we have got to 3.00 I am afraid
21 we have to rise very smartly indeed.
22 Mr Dobbins, I understand you are able to come back
23 on Monday, I am very grateful for you doing that.
24 Leaving aside the matter on which you are going to
25 discuss things with your counsel, as I say to all
1 witnesses whose evidence goes over a break, please do
2 not discuss the evidence you are giving with anybody.
3 A. Okay.
4 LORD SAVILLE: 9.30 Monday morning, please.
5 (3.00 pm)
6 (Proceedings adjourned until
7 9.30 am on Monday, 24th November 2003)
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1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 OIRA 7 (continued) ........................... 4
4 Questioned by MR LAWSON (continued) .......... 5
5 Questioned by MR ELIAS ....................... 39
6 Questioned by MR O'DONOVAN ................... 71
7 MR EDWARD DOBBINS, sworn ..................... 79
8 Questioned by MS McGAHEY ..................... 80
9 Questioned by MR McCARTNEY ................... 128
10 Questioned by MR JENNINGS .................... 128
11 Questioned by Mr McGRORY ..................... 147
12 Questioned by MR GLASGOW ..................... 149
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