1 Thursday, 2nd October 2003
2 (9.40 am)
3 SOLDIER F, continued
4 MR TOOHEY: Excuse me, Mr Elias, sorry to interrupt you --
5 Mr Clarke, do we have that information regarding the
6 arrest document, to get that out of the way first?
7 MR CLARKE: Yes. Soldier F, Mr Toohey was asking you
8 yesterday whether or not there was a signed copy of the
9 statements you made to the military police. Can you be
10 handed a bundle of documents now. These are the arrest
11 forms. If you take the first one and turn to the third
12 page, do you see a statement with a signature in the
13 bottom left-hand corner?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Is that your signature?
16 A. It looks like it, it is quite blurred, so possibly.
17 Q. That is in relation to Bradley, I think. Will you take
18 the next set of three documents in relation to I think
19 McCallion. On the third page, again, do you see
20 a statement with a signature?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that yours too?
23 A. It looks like it, yes.
24 Q. Then there is a two-page document in relation to Norris.
25 A two-page set of documents. Is the second document
1 a statement with a signature?
2 A. I can see the signature, it is quite blurred, but it
3 looks, it looks like mine.
4 Q. In relation to the third set of documents, in relation
5 to O'Keefe, if you look at the third document, again do
6 we see a signature?
7 A. I see a signature, so it is more blurred, so -- it is
8 possible.
9 Q. Does it look like your signature?
10 A. The last, um, the surname is quite blurred, but it is
11 possible.
12 MR TOOHEY: Thank you, Mr Clarke.
13 Questioned by MR ELIAS
14 MR ELIAS: Soldier F, I act for a number of former soldiers
15 and also for a member of the Army legal team in 1972,
16 Lieutenant Colonel Overbury.
17 He told Lord Widgery's inquiry, as I think you were
18 reminded yesterday, that the trigger for remembering
19 that you had fired a shot behind Rossville Flats,
20 Block 2, and across Rossville Street, was that you had
21 seen an aerial photograph or aerial photographs; do you
22 remember being reminded of that yesterday?
23 A. I remember being reminded, yes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of telling Lord Widgery
25 that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you have any recollection now of being shown aerial
3 photographs in 1972?
4 A. No, I do not.
5 Q. Would you have a look, please, at Q7, a map or
6 a plan: I would ask, please, that the top line of this
7 plan, you have been shown a part of it yesterday by
8 Mr Clarke, if the top line can be enlarged a little,
9 just taking the top line, you can see, in the centre it
10 is dated, as revised, 18th February 1971. I suggest
11 that is an error for 1972, obviously.
12 This document that we are looking at would appear to
13 be a document produced by the Special Investigation
14 Branch of the RMP, the SIB; do you understand?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And purports to be a shot plan, if that date be right,
17 apparently revised on or by 18th February. If you look
18 to the left you see the scale, two inches to 25 metres,
19 approximately. Just to complete, at the top, the Army
20 barriers are shown.
21 If we go back to the whole plan for a moment, can we
22 highlight the central area where the shot plans have
23 been set out. Mr Clarke showed you yesterday, I just
24 remind you of it, if I may, Mr Clarke showed you
25 yesterday the shot that you, at a late stage, remembered
1 firing to the barricade; do you recall that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Finishing on that side of the road as opposed to the
4 other. I do not want to go back over that ground that
5 you went through yesterday, the shots fired from the
6 wall of Kells Walk, according to the shot plan; you
7 recall that; do you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you have any recollection of being present when such
10 a shot plan was completed?
11 A. No.
12 Q. If you have a look, please, at the shot which runs from
13 the corner of Glenfada Park behind Block 2 of the
14 Rossville Flats, now being highlighted for you, your
15 position in red at the end of that line in green, that,
16 as you can probably just make out, is designated a shot
17 fired by F, by you.
18 Do you have any recollection of this plan, or a plan
19 similar to this, being completed in your presence?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It was, as the Tribunal has seen, your final statement
22 before the Widgery Inquiry that you did fire a shot
23 behind Rossville Flats Block 2; you recall that now, do
24 you not?
25 A. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. And you fired, you said, at a pistol man close to
2 a brick wall?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Do you have any recollection of that now?
5 A. Not now, no.
6 Q. You cannot assist then, can you, looking at that
7 enlarged portion of this plan on the screen now, you
8 cannot assist, can you, as to whether you would have
9 identified the point at which your line, the shot
10 showing your line from the corner of Glenfada Park to
11 that point just beyond the "S" of "FLATS" you could not
12 now tell this Tribunal whether that is as a result of
13 what you pointed out to SIB investigators, or not, can
14 you?
15 A. No, I cannot.
16 Q. But you would accept, would you, if this document be as
17 it appears -- dated on 18th February -- that the
18 information that it contains about you, must have come
19 from you?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. You would accept that; would you?
22 A. Referring to my statement that I made at that time, the
23 shooting the gunman, the reference to the plan, as
24 I said, I do not remember seeing a plan or anything,
25 but --
1 Q. I am sorry, you were going to say something else?
2 A. No, no, no.
3 Questioned by MR TREACY
4 MR TREACY: Soldier F, my name is Seamus Treacy and
5 I represent a number of the families. If you could just
6 look over towards me and keep your voice towards the
7 microphone so that -- you know that there is a large
8 number of people here, you can see them around you, who
9 have come a long way to hear your evidence, so it is
10 important that they hear everything you say, do you
11 follow me?
12 A. Yes. Can you hear that?
13 Q. You had already been in the Parachute Regiment for some
14 time prior to Bloody Sunday?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And you remained in the Parachute Regiment for some time
17 thereafter?
18 A. Um, some time after, yes.
19 Q. How long did you remain in the Army for, after
20 Bloody Sunday?
21 A. 22 years.
22 Q. 22 years?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. So on a quick calculation, then, you were in the Army up
25 until 1994; is that right?
1 A. 1988.
2 Q. May we take it that at the time of Bloody Sunday you
3 were a lance corporal; is that right?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. May the Inquiry take it that from Bloody Sunday up until
6 you left the Army in 1988, that your career progressed
7 fairly smoothly?
8 A. It all depends what you mean, "fairly smoothly".
9 Q. You did not remain a lance corporal, did you?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. You were promoted from time to time.
12 A. I was.
13 Q. What was the rank that you left the Army with?
14 A. WO2.
15 Q. What is that?
16 A. Warrant Officer, class 2.
17 Q. Whatever you did on Bloody Sunday -- obviously I am
18 going to come to that in due course -- whatever you did
19 on Bloody Sunday, it clearly did not count against you
20 in terms of your career within the Army; is that right?
21 A. If you look at it in that perspective.
22 Q. Is there any other perspective that you would like us to
23 look at it?
24 A. I think you are saying that on the events I got promoted
25 on what was happening, that is --
1 Q. I am not saying that you got promoted on the events that
2 happened, that may or may not be the case, I am not
3 saying that for the moment, I am just saying whatever
4 you did on Bloody Sunday certainly did not count against
5 you in terms of your Army career?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. You were never disciplined or reprimanded for anything
8 that you did on Bloody Sunday?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Not even after the Widgery Report came out, in which
11 Lord Widgery indicated that those who had fired in
12 Glenfada Park, he described it as "bordering on the
13 reckless"?
14 A. No.
15 Q. No-one ever came to you and drew that report to your
16 attention and questioned you about that?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. It is clear, therefore, is it, that you yourself never
19 felt that you had done anything other than your duty on
20 Bloody Sunday?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. And you had done, on Bloody Sunday, what had been
23 expected of you?
24 A. I was doing my job as a soldier, yes.
25 Q. And you behaved loyally and you were rewarded for what
1 happened, in the sense that your career progressed
2 normally and you were promoted through the ranks in the
3 course of time?
4 A. Due to my career in the service, yes.
5 Q. As far as you were concerned and obviously as far as
6 your chain of command was concerned, they never
7 expressed any disapproval to you, at any stage, in
8 relation to your activities on Bloody Sunday?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. It would appear, therefore, that as far as the military
11 authorities were concerned and your chain of command,
12 they endorsed or condoned whatever it was you did on
13 Bloody Sunday?
14 A. No, I would not say that at all. I mean --
15 Q. They certainly did not criticise it?
16 A. As far as my career went on, it is on my merit that my
17 Army service had counted, not what I did previously.
18 Q. I think you have already made clear, they certainly did
19 not criticise you or disapprove of anything that you did
20 on Bloody Sunday?
21 A. If you put it in that context, no.
22 Q. So far as you were concerned and as far as the military
23 authorities were concerned, this was an operation well
24 done and no-one suggested otherwise?
25 A. I would not --
1 Q. Is that right?
2 A. I would not, I would not say that.
3 Q. Why not?
4 A. When you say "well done," I mean it was an operation,
5 like a lot of operations we had been involved in and
6 I think at the end of it we were very surprised that
7 none of us had been injured or killed during the
8 operation.
9 Q. It was an operation well done, at least in the sense
10 that no-one ever came to you and suggested that the
11 operation should have been done in any other way, other
12 than the way in which it was done?
13 A. I think it was well done to the fact that no soldiers
14 were injured or killed on that day.
15 Q. That is still your view, that is it was an operation
16 well done?
17 A. It was an operation like many operations we had done in
18 Northern Ireland, it was one of many that we had done.
19 Q. It is quite clear, is it not, from the evidence you have
20 given, as far as the military authorities were
21 concerned, they also shared your view that it was an
22 operation well done, because no-one ever came to you
23 afterwards and suggested otherwise?
24 A. That is correct, but I mean that is not for me to say
25 what they thought.
1 Q. You told the Tribunal yesterday that you have no
2 recollection of a briefing having taken place in
3 relation to Bloody Sunday?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. But you were then asked by Mr Clarke whether or not you
6 remembered at the briefing any discussion about "getting
7 some kills"; do you remember that?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. You denied to Mr Clarke that either you had heard such
10 a thing being said or that you yourself had expressly
11 approved, at such a briefing, something along those
12 lines?
13 A. I did not hear anything of what you said was mentioned.
14 Q. Does that mean, therefore, that you do have some
15 recollection of a briefing?
16 A. No. As I said yesterday, I do not remember a briefing.
17 Q. If you do not remember a briefing, you had no
18 recollection at all; that is your evidence; you had no
19 recollection whatsoever as to whether a briefing took
20 place?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. If that is the case, then, how do you know whether or
23 not somebody mentioned something along the lines about
24 getting a few "kills"?
25 A. That was not mentioned at all.
1 Q. How do you know that if you do not even remember whether
2 a briefing actually took place or not?
3 A. Because it was mentioned in one of my previous
4 statements.
5 Q. Sorry which statements do you have in mind?
6 A. It was one of the statements that I made to Eversheds in
7 2000, and it says, if I find it, did I hear of anything,
8 reference what you have just mentioned and I said: no.
9 Q. If it is in your Eversheds statement, it must be true;
10 is that what you are saying?
11 A. That is what I am saying, I did not hear of anything of
12 that -- of that concern.
13 Q. I am pointing out to you there is a logical
14 inconsistency between what you said in your Eversheds
15 statement and what you said in your evidence to this
16 Inquiry yesterday. You cannot on the one hand say: I do
17 not remember whether a briefing took place or not, and
18 then on the other hand say: as a matter of fact, I can
19 remember there was no discussion about getting a few
20 "kills"; do you follow me, you either remember it or you
21 do not?
22 A. Surely a briefing and a discussion are two different
23 things.
24 Q. Do you remember a discussion?
25 A. I do not.
1 (Laughing in the gallery)
2 LORD SAVILLE: I think I have to ask people to be quiet.
3 This is very important indeed.
4 MR TREACY: One thing is clear: whatever was discussed at
5 the briefing and whether you remember any discussion
6 about getting a few kills, the fact is that you did get
7 a few kills on Bloody Sunday; did you not?
8 A. I acted it as accordance with the rules and regulations
9 of the Yellow Card.
10 Q. You did get a few kills on Bloody Sunday, did you not?
11 A. As I repeat, I acted in accordance with the rules and
12 regulations of the Yellow Card, on that day.
13 Q. We will come to that in a moment, because I will
14 demonstrate to you later on, it is quite clear, even
15 from your contemporary statements, you certainly did not
16 act in accordance with the Yellow Card; do you follow
17 me?
18 A. I follow you.
19 Q. Now, would you answer my -- do you accept that you did
20 get a few kills on Bloody Sunday?
21 A. I accept that the people I shot were a threat to me,
22 myself and my fellow soldiers, as accordance to the
23 Yellow Card.
24 Q. Are you saying you remember that now?
25 A. No, I do not remember it, I am saying that is what
1 I followed as a guide.
2 Q. How many people did you kill on Bloody Sunday?
3 A. According to my statements --
4 Q. Forget about your statements, F. If you kill another
5 human being, it is not the kind of thing that you
6 forget: how many people did you kill on Bloody Sunday?
7 A. As I referred to my statements, okay, according to my
8 statements, it was one at the barricade, one in
9 Glenfada Park and one -- the gunman with the pistol.
10 Q. That is three?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And are you telling the Inquiry and all the people that
13 are present in this hall today that, as you sit there in
14 the witness box in 2003, you have no present
15 recollection of the circumstances in which you killed
16 three human beings; is that your evidence?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. We have heard evidence from a number of sources,
19 including a soldier who kept a journal of what was
20 happening at the time of Bloody Sunday; do you follow
21 me?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He was describing in his journal the reaction, not just
24 of the Parachute Regiment, but, indeed, the reaction of
25 other soldiers in Derry in the immediate aftermath of
1 the killings; do you follow me?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And he referred to the mood amongst the soldiers as
4 being one of elation. We have heard that not just from
5 him, but from a number of other sources. Do you recall
6 that that was the mood within the Parachute Regiment
7 about what had occurred on Bloody Sunday?
8 A. When you mention the word "elation", I think elation of
9 the fact, as I mentioned before, none of us was injured
10 or killed on that day.
11 Q. Do I take it from that answer that you do recall that
12 there was a spirit of elation within the
13 Parachute Regiment and within the Anti-Tank Platoon in
14 particular in the immediate aftermath of Bloody Sunday?
15 A. I would not say and particularly the Parachute Regiment,
16 I think perhaps a few people, yes.
17 Q. And you were one of them, were you not?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. So you were elated in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday?
20 A. I was relieved that I had come out of it unscathed, yes.
21 Q. Jubilant, in fact?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The journal kept by this officer, it was not just the
24 Parachute Regiment, he also referred to the fact the
25 RUC, as they then were, were very happy about the way
1 events developed that day; do you remember that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And a large number of Unionists at the time were very
4 happy about what happened on Bloody Sunday; do you
5 remember that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. That the Paras had become heroes in the eyes of the
8 Protestant people?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Because they had taken on the Bogsiders?
11 A. No.
12 Q. They had taught them a lesson?
13 A. No.
14 Q. They had given them a bloody nose?
15 A. No.
16 Q. They had, as the journal entry of the soldier concerned
17 referred to, they had cowed them?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You do not remember any of that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When you say: no, is that because you do not remember
22 it, or because you are saying it is not the case?
23 A. As I recollect, I do not remember it and I do not think
24 it was the case at that time.
25 Q. As I understand -- as far as you are concerned, do you
1 consider yourself a truthful person?
2 A. I do, yes.
3 Q. Are you here to tell the truth, pure and simple?
4 A. I have swore on the Bible, yes.
5 Q. There are lots of people who swear on the Bible, I am
6 afraid, who do not always tell the truth. Are you here
7 to tell this Inquiry the truth, pure and simple?
8 A. I am.
9 Q. Do you always tell the truth?
10 A. I hope so, yes.
11 Q. Do you ever tell lies?
12 A. Doesn't everybody?
13 Q. Do you ever tell lies?
14 A. Not to my recollection recently, no.
15 Q. Not even yesterday?
16 A. Not as far as I am concerned, no.
17 Q. Would you ever tell lies in your own self-interest?
18 A. Not that I am aware of.
19 Q. Did you ever tell lies about what happened on
20 Bloody Sunday?
21 A. I did not.
22 Q. Did you always tell the truth about what happened on
23 Bloody Sunday?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Is it your case that all the statements that you made,
1 for example, either on the day of Bloody Sunday or
2 subsequently, that you did not tell any lies in those
3 statements?
4 A. I did not. Similar statements may have errors in, which
5 we saw yesterday, but that was because of the situation,
6 of the events of the day.
7 Q. So we can be clear about this: apart from confusion and
8 errors that have crept in, is it your evidence that the
9 statements that you made about Bloody Sunday, either on
10 the day or prior to the Widgery Inquiry itself, is it
11 your evidence to this Inquiry that the contents of those
12 statements are true?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. I am going to return to that, but I am going to suggest
15 to you at the moment that there are various matters
16 contained within the statements that you made at the
17 time and before Widgery which are clearly lies; do you
18 follow me?
19 A. I follow you.
20 Q. And that, therefore, the answer that you have just given
21 is itself a lie?
22 A. No, it is not.
23 Q. You also told Eversheds in a statement you had made and
24 you repeatedly said to the Inquiry yesterday that you do
25 not really have any recollection at all about when,
1 where or why you fired?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Nor do you have any recollection of when, where or why
4 any of your colleagues fired?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. So what you are asking the Inquiry to believe is that,
7 as far as the events of Bloody Sunday are concerned, you
8 have total amnesia?
9 A. It was 20 -- sorry, 31 years ago and since then I have
10 been involved in quite a lot of experiences with these
11 situations.
12 Q. I take it the answer to my question is: that as far as
13 what you did on Bloody Sunday, the circumstances in
14 which you fired and the circumstances in which your
15 colleagues fired, you have total amnesia; is that right?
16 A. On that particular day, I do not remember the events
17 that happened, no.
18 Q. Do you have some difficulty with what I am putting to
19 you, because I am suggesting to you that a fair summary
20 of the effect of your Eversheds statement and the effect
21 of the evidence that you gave to the Inquiry yesterday
22 is that, insofar as what you yourself did on
23 Bloody Sunday, when, where and why you fired and when,
24 where and why your colleagues fired, you have total
25 amnesia; is that right?
1 A. I would not use that word --
2 Q. I know you would not. The reason you would not use it
3 is because you would realise how ridiculous is the
4 evidence you have given in your statement and to the
5 Inquiry yesterday.
6 A. I do not recollect the events of that day, only what
7 I have put down in the statements.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Treacy, could you go a little bit slower?
9 MR TREACY: I beg your pardon, sorry.
10 LORD SAVILLE: I can follow you, it is for the sake of our
11 LiveNote writer.
12 MR TREACY: You know that the Inquiry has also heard --
13 I take it you do know the Inquiry has also heard from
14 other soldiers?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Members of your platoon?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Other soldiers who fired rounds on Bloody Sunday?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And are you aware that they, too, have a mysterious
21 amnesia in relation to the events of that day?
22 A. No, I am not aware of that, no.
23 Q. You are not aware of that. So this collective amnesia
24 that the Inquiry has seen on an almost daily basis now,
25 that is just a coincidence; is it?
1 A. You could say that.
2 Q. Does it strike you as rather odd that we are now in
3 a situation where the people of Derry cannot forget what
4 happened that day and the paratroopers cannot remember;
5 is that the situation?
6 A. I can appreciate that, but a lot, a lot of time has gone
7 on since 31 years ago.
8 Q. It is a very curious paradox; is it not?
9 A. It certainly is, yes.
10 Q. That those who have most to account for appear to have
11 the most defective memories of them all; is that not
12 right?
13 A. If you say so.
14 Q. Well, do you not agree with that? As far as you are
15 concerned, that is the case?
16 A. Then okay.
17 Q. You have no explanation for that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. None at all?
20 A. None at all. As I said, it was 31 years ago and since
21 that event, I have been involved in a lot of
22 experiences, of similar cases.
23 Q. What, killing people?
24 A. Of similar cases.
25 Q. Are you saying that you have killed so many people that
1 you cannot remember the circumstances in which you
2 killed them; is that what you are saying?
3 A. No, I am not, I am saying, I am saying I have been
4 involved in a lot of experiences.
5 Q. You told the Inquiry yesterday that as far as your
6 experiences in Northern Ireland were concerned, that was
7 confined to a number of shooting incidents prior to
8 Bloody Sunday; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct, yes.
10 Q. So as far as Northern Ireland is concerned, the only
11 circumstances in which you admit to killing people was
12 on Bloody Sunday itself?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Notwithstanding that fact, you are asking this Tribunal
15 and all of the people, who have travelled a very long
16 way to find out what you have to say about this, the
17 best that you can do is to say that you cannot remember
18 anything at all about it, even though those are the only
19 human beings that you killed in Northern Ireland?
20 A. I was speaking the truth, to the best of my knowledge.
21 Q. You have the benefit of anonymity; is that not right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. And you also have the benefit and assurance from the
24 Attorney General -- you and a number of other
25 witnesses -- that any evidence that you give before this
1 Inquiry could not be used against you in a subsequent
2 trial; you do understand that, do you not?
3 A. I do, yes.
4 Q. Notwithstanding -- of course you have had the
5 opportunity to come to London and give your evidence,
6 rather than have to come to Derry and give it; is that
7 not right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. With all those combination of safeguards and given the
10 fact we are now in 2003, some 30 years or so after
11 Bloody Sunday, and all these people who have been
12 waiting for so long to find out exactly what happened on
13 Rossville Street and what happened in Glenfada Park and
14 what happened in Abbey Park and what happened at the
15 back of Block 2 of Rossville Flats, are you not now
16 prepared to tell us something about what you saw and
17 heard that day?
18 A. I can only tell you what I remember and that is it.
19 Q. Which is nothing?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. That is not a very fruitful exercise as far as this
22 Inquiry is concerned; is it? To come here and tell us
23 nothing?
24 A. I can only say what I said. I come here to tell the
25 truth, and that is it.
1 Q. You see, the biggest lie of all, F, is your -- what you
2 said in your Eversheds statement, and you have said to
3 the Inquiry all day yesterday and you are going to
4 repeat today, because it is quite obvious, whatever
5 questions you are asked by me or by any of the other
6 barristers in this room, or by the Inquiry itself, every
7 question about the events of Bloody Sunday and what you
8 did and what your colleagues did is going to be met by
9 the answer: I cannot remember; is that not so?
10 A. I can only remember what I remember, that is it.
11 Q. Is that not so? That is what follows from that?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Is that not right?
14 A. I can only remember, as I repeat, I can only remember
15 what I remember. If I cannot remember anything,
16 I cannot remember. I can only tell the truth and what
17 I remember.
18 Q. I am suggesting, you see, that is a barefaced lie, when
19 you say you cannot remember anything at all; you are
20 telling us nothing, you are telling the Inquiry nothing
21 and you are telling the people here nothing; is that not
22 right?
23 A. If you say so.
24 Q. I am suggesting to you that the reason you are not
25 prepared to tell us anything at all is because you know
1 that what you did that day was unlawful?
2 A. That is not correct. I acted as in accordance with the
3 Yellow Card.
4 Q. You do appreciate, of course, the purpose for which you
5 are here; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Which is to assist the Inquiry?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Give them as much as information as you can about the
10 events of Bloody Sunday?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And you know that it is perjury to tell a lie; do you
13 not?
14 A. I do, yes.
15 Q. And you know it is a lie to say that you cannot remember
16 something when you can remember something; you
17 appreciate that?
18 A. I appreciate that.
19 Q. You have also told the Inquiry that you yourself did not
20 witness or participate in any ill-treatment; is that not
21 right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. At any stage?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. You are quite sure about that?
1 A. That is what I have put in my statement and I stand by
2 that.
3 Q. That is a very strange answer, to say: that is what
4 I put in my statement. You are either guilty of
5 ill-treatment or witnessed ill-treatment, or you were
6 not. You surely do not need to refer to your previous
7 statement to answer that question; do you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Then, why did you refer to your statement at all?
10 A. Because that is what I have put in the statement at the
11 time --
12 Q. Is that a stock answer, F, is that a stock answer,
13 because we have heard it time and time again, from
14 soldier after soldier who is asked a question and they
15 will frequently refer: if it is in my statement, it is
16 true, or they refer to their statement; have you been
17 schooled in some way to give that kind of answer?
18 A. Not at all.
19 Q. Are you sure?
20 A. I am positive.
21 Q. Have you been schooled to feign and to lie about saying
22 you do not have any recollection of events, when you do?
23 A. That is not true. I can only remember what I remember.
24 Q. Have you and your former colleagues got together and
25 between you agreed that this was the strategy that you
1 were going to take with the Inquiry: you were not going
2 to tell them anything at all about what you or your
3 colleagues actually did?
4 A. I have not seen my colleagues since that period of time.
5 Q. None of them?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So if this all happened, this collective amnesia we have
8 seen, that is just a pure coincidence?
9 A. It is not a coincidence, it is over a period of time, it
10 is 31 years ago.
11 Q. I know you keep saying that, but there are very few
12 people, I suggest to you, who could be involved, as you
13 yourself admit, in the killing of at least three people
14 and not be able to provide any assistance whatsoever to
15 the Inquiry about the circumstances in which you robbed
16 three people of their lives.
17 Tell me this, F: let us assume for the moment that
18 at the end of this Inquiry there is a report prepared,
19 as there must be, and in that report the Inquiry were to
20 conclude that it was satisfied that the killings in
21 which you were involved were unjustified; do you follow
22 me?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Let us assume that following that, a decision was taken
25 that you should be prosecuted for the murder of one or
1 some of the people who you killed; do you follow me?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Are you seriously telling the Inquiry and all the people
4 that are here, that if you were to stand trial for
5 murder, when you go into the witness box, if you go into
6 the witness box in the murder trial, that you will be
7 telling the judge and the jury: I do not actually
8 remember anything at all about the circumstances in
9 which I am alleged to have murdered this man; is that
10 your evidence?
11 A. I can only tell you what I know.
12 Q. Looking ahead, is that what one can anticipate in the
13 event that you were to stand trial for murder?
14 A. Who can say what we will see in the future.
15 Q. Would it be your amnesia would suddenly disappear and
16 you would then start to recall events?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So your amnesia is permanent then, is it?
19 A. Nothing is permanent, is it?
20 Q. You do not have any medical condition that explains your
21 total lack of recall, do you?
22 A. Not that I know of.
23 Q. You do remember being here yesterday; do you?
24 (Laughing in the gallery)
25 A. Yes, I do remember that, yes.
1 Q. I was asking you about whether or not you had witnessed
2 any brutality or whether or not you had participated in
3 any brutality and you have of course in your statement,
4 but I am going to suggest to you that of all of the
5 soldiers who were present on Bloody Sunday and who were
6 there at Fort George, you and your best mate, G, were
7 sadistic and casually brutal?
8 A. That is not correct.
9 Q. Could I ask you to look, please, at H21.94. This is
10 a statement from Father O'Keefe, as he then was. Do you
11 know who Father O'Keefe is?
12 A. I have seen the photograph, yes.
13 Q. Beyond that, you do not know who he is?
14 A. He is obviously a priest.
15 Q. He was then. He was also a lecturer in philosophy and
16 the dean of the School of Humanities; do you follow me?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. By any stretch of the imagination, a pillar of his local
19 community; do you follow me?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. And clearly someone in whom, in ordinary circumstances,
22 you could expect to repose a considerable degree of
23 trust; is that not right?
24 A. That is possible, yes.
25 Q. Not the kind of person one would expect to be telling
1 lies?
2 A. That is not for me to say.
3 Q. If you look at paragraph 34 of his statement, at the
4 third sentence in paragraph 34:
5 "I do not think, however, that they were ..."
6 He is referring, I should explain to you, this
7 portion of his statement, he is referring to what
8 transpired at Fort George, when the prisoners were being
9 ill-treated:
10 "I do not think, however that they were as sadistic
11 or as casually brutal as the paratrooper with blond
12 hair, or Lance Corporal F."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. I see, that yes.
15 Q. It looks as if the paratrooper with the blond hair is
16 probably G; is that right?
17 A. It is possible.
18 Q. You and he worked as a team?
19 A. We did, yes.
20 Q. I put it to you again: you were sadistic and casually
21 brutal on that day?
22 A. That is not correct.
23 Q. Are you saying, then, that Father O'Keefe when he made
24 that statement was telling lies?
25 A. I am not saying -- the statement you are making is not
1 correct.
2 Q. It is not the statement I am making, F, it is
3 a statement Father O'Keefe made. He also said the same
4 at the time. Of course, like so many other people, he
5 has made a statement to this Inquiry; do you follow me?
6 A. I follow you, yes.
7 Q. And he has given evidence?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. From what you say, Father O'Keefe must be telling lies?
10 A. I will say he is not correct in his statement.
11 Q. I see. Is it not the case, Soldier F, that you yourself
12 were party to one of the most -- I am leaving aside the
13 killings, which I am going to come to in due course --
14 putting that to one side for the moment, and in terms of
15 what happened after the killings, that you were
16 a participant in one of the most appalling brutalities
17 of the whole affair in Fort George, the torture of
18 innocent prisoners?
19 A. That is not correct.
20 Q. Are you sure about that?
21 A. That is not correct.
22 Q. Tell me this: if somebody had made that kind of
23 allegation about you, I presume you would have been
24 horrified?
25 A. I would not have been too happy, no.
1 Q. Can I ask you to look, please, at L193. The portion in
2 the left-hand column, the section entitled "Brutality."
3 In this copy you will see, where it says:
4 "Around 8.15 pm a group of Paras return to the
5 prisoners and the brutality went on."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I should explain to you, by the way, this is actually
9 a report in the Irish Independent, it was dated
10 1st March 1972. The next paragraph, it says:
11 "It was this group of paratroopers who were said to
12 include ..." and it then gives your name.
13 In the copy that is on the screen, your name has
14 been redacted; do you follow me?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. But your name appeared in the Irish Independent in this
17 copy; do you follow me?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. It then also gave the name of another individual who we
20 know as 229, but his name also appeared in this
21 newspaper account; do you follow me?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then it says:
24 "It was this group of paratroopers who were said to
25 include corporals [et cetera] that perpetrated one of
1 the most appalling brutalities in the whole affair."
2 It goes on to describe -- I do not need to read it
3 out, because the Inquiry is familiar with these
4 allegations, but you are named in that article as being
5 the person who was involved in what they describe as one
6 of the most, "appalling brutalities of the whole
7 affair"; do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell me this: you must have been pretty outraged when
10 this was being alleged against you in a public newspaper
11 at a time when you were serving in Northern Ireland,
12 that you were effectively involved in torturing
13 prisoners?
14 A. I had not seen that article at that time, no.
15 Q. What do you mean, you did not see it at that time?
16 A. At that time I had not seen that article.
17 Q. Are you seriously telling the Inquiry that when your
18 name appears in a Northern Ireland newspaper
19 in March 1972, alleging torture against you, alleging
20 one of the most "appalling brutalities" that took place
21 in Fort George, are you seriously telling the Inquiry
22 and everybody who is here that that was not drawn to
23 your attention at the time?
24 A. I did not see that article at that time.
25 Q. When did you see it?
1 A. I saw that a few weeks ago.
2 Q. How do you know you did not see it at the time?
3 A. Because I would have remembered it.
4 (Laughing in gallery)
5 I think if someone puts your name in the paper --
6 LORD SAVILLE: I really must make one final appeal to you to
7 remain quiet during the course of this evidence. We
8 must conduct this Inquiry in peace and quiet. If there
9 is another interruption of this kind, I shall have to
10 ask people to leave the hall. Anyone who feels he is
11 not able to remain quiet while this evidence is being
12 given, Mr Treacy is asking questions, I will ask to
13 leave now.
14 Yes, Mr Treacy.
15 MR TREACY: Are you seriously -- think very carefully, F --
16 suggesting you would not have had this article drawn to
17 your attention at the time?
18 A. I am not saying I would not have had it drawn to my
19 attention, but I have not seen that article until a few
20 weeks ago.
21 Q. None of your colleagues or senior officers came running
22 in and said: look what they are saying about you in the
23 paper here?
24 A. Not that I am aware of, no.
25 Q. Does it seem strange now that that did not occur?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Very, very strange?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Because if you had seen it at the time and it was not
5 true -- one thing is clear: you did not write in, and
6 nobody wrote in on your behalf to the newspaper to
7 complain about what had been written, these outrageous
8 lies that were being told about you?
9 A. I am sure if that had been the case that I would not
10 have been any position to write into the papers as
11 a serving soldier.
12 Q. You would not have been in a position. Presumably you
13 would have wanted somebody to put the record straight?
14 A. I presumed I would have went to the commanding officer
15 and it would have been taken from there.
16 Q. You did not do that, no?
17 A. No, because I did not see the article.
18 Q. So you say. You did not, for example, because of these
19 outrageous lies that had been published in a newspaper,
20 you did not sue for defamation; did you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You never ever said to anybody at the time that what was
23 being printed about you in the press was not true, you
24 say because it was not drawn to your attention?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Were any newspaper articles ever drawn to your attention
2 at any stage?
3 A. I think after the events, obviously there was a lot of
4 publicity, which was all the papers, but reference my
5 name, it was not included in that.
6 Q. Are you saying to the Inquiry that at no stage was any
7 article ever drawn to your attention in which your name
8 appeared?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Are you sure about that?
11 A. I am positive.
12 Q. Could I have on the screen, please, 167.034. If I could
13 highlight the first five lines. This is a statement
14 that you made on 15th February 1972 and this is
15 a statement that you made to the Royal Military Police
16 and it is about the alleged ill-treatment of people in
17 Fort George. Do you see what you said there in the
18 third line:
19 "I have been shown an article in the Sunday
20 Independent, dated 6th February 1972 [it is not the same
21 article as the one I showed you a moment ago] which
22 mentioned my name and makes allegations against me in
23 connection with my treatment ..."
24 It means the answer you just gave to me a few
25 moments ago was plainly incorrect; is that not so?
1 A. I put in the statement, it is obviously right at the
2 time, but I --
3 Q. The answer you gave to my question just a moment ago,
4 when you said you were never shown any article with your
5 name in it, was plainly untrue?
6 A. I have no recollection of this -- of what I said in the
7 statement.
8 Q. That is not what you said when I asked you a moment ago
9 about whether or not you had ever seen an article with
10 you name in it. Your answer was quite clear and
11 unequivocal and you said: no?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. You did not say: no, I cannot remember it, you said: no?
14 A. That is correct.
15 LORD SAVILLE: In fact he said, "I am positive".
16 MR TREACY: I am obliged. The answer you gave to that
17 question just a few moments ago was clearly untrue; was
18 it not, Soldier F?
19 A. If you put it in that context, it probably was, yes.
20 Q. I thought you told us at the start of your evidence that
21 you are a truthful person and you do not tell lies?
22 A. I am a truthful person. What I made on that day is what
23 I made. Since then, I have no recollection of the
24 events of that time.
25 Q. What you also said was if someone had put your name in
1 the paper, that you would have remembered it. You have
2 been shown a paper with your name in it; you would have
3 remembered it?
4 A. Obviously I forgot.
5 Q. Is it the case, F, is it one small example of you being
6 caught out in an obvious lie?
7 A. No, I would not say caught out.
8 Q. You knew very well in 1972 there were very serious
9 allegations made about you torturing prisoners and you
10 never did anything about it, and the reason you never
11 did anything about it was because you knew it was true?
12 A. That is not correct.
13 Q. That what Father O'Keefe said in his statement and what
14 he said in a letter to General Tuzo back in 1972 and in
15 his evidence to this Inquiry about one of those who were
16 sadistic and casually brutal was true?
17 A. That is not correct.
18 Q. You have also told the Inquiry that if you make
19 a statement, then the statement must be true?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. You did make -- and you were taken over these statements
22 yesterday -- four statements concerning the people whom
23 you were photographed with and whom you claimed to have
24 arrested for throwing stones; do you remember that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. We have seen the photographs of you with the arrested
2 persons. Could I take you to ARR32.3. You were being
3 asked about these statements yesterday and it was not
4 always clear whether or not you were simply saying you
5 could not recall arresting these individuals because it
6 was so long ago but you must have arrested them, or
7 whether you were accepting that you did not arrest them
8 and that the statements which bear your signature were
9 in fact false. Which is it?
10 A. I do not remember the actual events of that day. I am
11 just seeing what my cipher says on the bottom, so
12 obviously I presumed I must have made that statement.
13 Q. Is your evidence to this Inquiry that as far as you are
14 concerned, these statements from you, in which you
15 describe four named individuals rioting in the
16 circumstances that you have described in those
17 statements, is it your evidence to the Inquiry, because
18 it is contained in those statement, it must be true?
19 A. That is possible, yes.
20 Q. What do you mean, it is possible? It either is or it is
21 not. It is either true or it is false.
22 A. It is there in black and white and it is true, yes.
23 Q. You see here that you claim to -- this is in respect of
24 one of the people you arrested, a Michael McCallion, and
25 you claim to have arrested him at about 1915 hours, that
1 is quarter past 7, at William Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The paratroopers were not in William Street at quarter
4 past 7, they had left the area long before that; is that
5 not right?
6 A. I have no recollection of that, no.
7 Q. I am suggesting to you there is an abundance of evidence
8 that demonstrates that the paratroopers were nowhere
9 next nor near William Street at 7.15 that night?
10 Could I ask you to look, then, at the arrest form
11 for Father O'Keefe. ARR50.3, please. This is where you
12 claim to have arrested -- this is the same priest who
13 says that you were sadistic and casually brutal at
14 Fort George and you are claiming to have seen
15 Father O'Keefe throwing stones at your patrol in
16 William Street. Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That was just a tissue of lies, was it not, F?
19 A. I cannot recollect that at all.
20 Q. Could it be that the reason you do not recollect is
21 because it was simply false?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are you still insisting, then, that because it is
24 contained in your statement, then you must have seen
25 Father O'Keefe throwing stones at your patrol?
1 A. I do not recollect that at all.
2 Q. Does it follow logically from the evidence you are
3 giving to this Inquiry that because it is in your
4 statement, it must be true and, therefore, you are still
5 continuing to insist, by reference to your contemporary
6 statement, that Father O'Keefe must have thrown stones
7 at your patrol?
8 A. What it says in that statement, it indicates that, but
9 I have no recollection of this.
10 Q. That is because you would not lie in your statement?
11 A. I would not lie.
12 Q. That is the reason why you give that evidence?
13 A. As I have said, I am here to tell the truth.
14 Q. Can I ask you to look as well at one of the other
15 individuals that you arrested that day, a Mr Norris.
16 Could I ask you to look at ARR46.2. This is a man,
17 again, that you claim to have seen throwing stones in
18 William Street and that you had arrested him. There has
19 been evidence given by Mr Norris that he was arrested
20 from a taxi. That is another completely false statement
21 by you?
22 A. I have no recollection of this.
23 Q. Do you see just at the bottom of the page, here, at the
24 bottom of each of these statements, there is a solemn
25 declaration that you sign, and in that solemn
1 declaration you say:
2 "This statement signed by me is true to the best of
3 my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it
4 is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution
5 if I have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to
6 be false or do not believe to be true."
7 I am suggesting to you there are four statements,
8 I have only shown you three of them. In those four
9 statements you have signed your name to that solemn
10 declaration, even though you knew the contents of those
11 four statements were completely false; is that not
12 right?
13 A. If you say so.
14 Q. And that, therefore, when you tell the Tribunal that
15 something is in your statement it must be true, that is
16 absolute nonsense?
17 A. I have no recollection of these, as I repeated before.
18 Q. As far as Mr Norris is concerned, the situation is, from
19 your point of view, F, I suggest it is even worse,
20 because if we have on the screen ARR46.3 -- this is
21 a statement that you were not -- it was not opened to
22 you yesterday. It is very, very hard to read, but if
23 I can just -- this is a statement that you made, it was
24 taken by a Constable Hogg at Palace Barracks on
25 15th February 1972.
1 LORD SAVILLE: I think it is almost impossible. We could
2 provide the witness with a hard copy, I think,
3 Mr Treacy. Unless there is a particular passage you
4 wanted?
5 MR TREACY: There is, but it is so unclear in the screen.
6 Maybe if I can deal with it this way, if this is not
7 satisfactory, sir, someone can ...
8 This is a statement which was taken by Constable
9 Hogg at Palace Barracks. It was taken on
10 15th February 1972; do you follow me?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. About halfway down --
13 LORD SAVILLE: Just a moment. Mr Frankson, are those
14 reasonably legible?
15 MR FRANKSON: They are better than those on the screen.
16 LORD SAVILLE: The witness has the best we can offer,
17 Mr Treacy.
18 MR TREACY: Over halfway down this statement, you describe
19 a person who is wearing a blue jacket and grey trousers
20 and you then say -- by this stage, I should say, you are
21 in Rossville Street. You say:
22 "I watched this person for two to three minutes and
23 during this time I saw him throwing a number of stones."
24 Do you see that? You are claiming in this statement
25 to have seen him rioting in Rossville Street?
1 A. Is it the one where, "during this time I observed the
2 crowd," is that the one?
3 Q. You say:
4 "During this time I observed this crowd who were
5 throwing stones at us from the side of Glenfada Park
6 that bounds with Rossville Street. There were
7 approximately 10 to 15 persons in this crowd and
8 I observed a person, wearing a blue jacket and grey
9 trousers, who was thinly built, with shortish hair.
10 I watched this person for two to three minutes and
11 during this time I saw him throw a number of stones.
12 A short time after this, there was some gunfire and the
13 crowd ran away to my right."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. That is what I see, yes.
16 Q. That was completely untrue, was it not?
17 A. I have no recollection of this at all.
18 LORD SAVILLE: I think what we will do, Mr Treacy, as far as
19 this document is concerned, is to get it typed out again
20 and scanned into the servers and when that happens, any
21 references to it hereafter I think can be to the clearer
22 version.
23 MR GLASGOW: If it assists you and my learned friend, there
24 is in fact a clear copy at 167.063, which is in the
25 bundle. I think that is legible even on the screen. It
1 is certainly clearer than the one we had.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Not a lot better. It is better, but it is
3 not a lot better. I think we will have it typed out.
4 MR GLASGOW: So be it.
5 MR TREACY: Tell me, F, have you ever harmed a prisoner?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you ever hit him a slap?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Never?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How long did you serve in Belfast?
12 A. My first tour there was an emergency tour in 1969.
13 Q. Do not give me the details; how long were you serving in
14 Northern Ireland altogether, as a paratrooper?
15 A. Approximately just over two years.
16 Q. And during that whole course of time, you never lifted
17 your hand to anybody?
18 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
19 Q. Did you ever see any of your colleagues lift their hand
20 to anybody?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The paratroopers always behaved, in your experience,
23 with complete decorum?
24 A. Acting in a professional manner as soldiers, yes.
25 Q. You were asked yesterday about an incident which
1 occurred after Bloody Sunday, within the week after
2 Bloody Sunday had occurred, in which a number of
3 innocent Catholics were beaten up -- two Catholics --
4 were beaten up by the Army in Divis flats; you know the
5 Divis flats area, do you not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At the bottom of the Falls Road in Belfast?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. They were coming from the Legion of Mary, which is
10 a voluntary organisation, they looked after homeless
11 people, alcoholics and disadvantaged people from both
12 sides of the community; do you follow me?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This is about 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock on a winter's
15 night. They were making their way from a hostel meeting
16 and they were stopped by the Army and they were beaten
17 up and the two of then were abducted and dropped outside
18 a public house on the Shankill Road; do you follow me?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You would appreciate that picking up a couple of
21 Catholics and dropping them off on the Shankill Road was
22 a pretty dangerous thing to do; was it not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In 1972 that might have meant almost certain death for
25 Catholics?
1 A. It is not for me to say.
2 Q. You served in Northern Ireland in 1972, you know as well
3 as the rest of the people in this room, in 1972 if you
4 dumped a couple of Catholics outside a Protestant bar on
5 the Shankill Road, you had a pretty good idea what was
6 likely to happen, especially if you happen to identify
7 them as Catholics or as IRA men before you drop them
8 off?
9 A. That is not for me to say.
10 Q. Can you not tell this Tribunal, as a result of your
11 experience, that was the likely consequence of dropping
12 a couple of Catholics off outside a bar in the
13 Shankill Road?
14 A. It is possible.
15 LORD SAVILLE: A little bit slower, please.
16 MR TREACY: Could I ask you to go to a document, AC146.16.
17 This is a document I have only recently seen and I do
18 not think it was in our possession at the time 027 was
19 giving evidence. Could I explain this to you: both of
20 the people who were abducted and dropped on the
21 Shankill Road then sued for damages; do you follow me?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you can see here at the top the names of the
24 individuals concerned; do you follow me? This is an
25 internal document and it is dated 8th July. It is an
1 internal Army document and it is dated 8th July 1974 and
2 in this letter advice is being passed on, presumably to
3 its litigation department, advice is being passed on
4 that these claims for damages should be settled out of
5 court; do you follow me?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What I want to draw your attention to is just about
8 halfway into paragraph 2. It is a sentence that begins:
9 "The Army account of the incident indicates that the
10 two men were taken away for screening by a mobile patrol
11 after cuttings of newspapers had been found on them
12 containing IRA literature. There is evidence that the
13 Security Forces used more force than was necessary,
14 including kicking and punching [the named individuals]
15 after they [that is the Security Forces] had been
16 provoked. Moreover, it is evident that they were dumped
17 in a hostile area with little regard to their future
18 safety."
19 At least the authors of this letter identified
20 something that you had difficulty accepting, that is the
21 obvious risk to the Catholics who were dumped on the
22 Shankill Road:
23 "The same evening [the named individual] was rescued
24 from a civilian mob by another mobile patrol."
25 They go on in the third paragraph to accept that it
1 is inescapable that the men received the injuries due to
2 the Army's action. In paragraph 4 you can see that
3 there was an MP, well-known at the time, who had
4 actually made representations about this case. What
5 I want to ask you about this: in order for that letter
6 to have been written and the reference to an Army
7 account, that implies that the military authorities were
8 able to work out who it was in the Army who was
9 responsible for the abduction and ill-treatment of these
10 individuals; do you follow me?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you one of the people -- this is the only document
13 we have, it is clear there must be other documents, the
14 Ministry of Defence must have other documents, they must
15 have a file about this case and that file, presumably,
16 must include the Army account that is referred to in
17 that document; do you follow me?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And those other documents will presumably indicate to
20 whom the Army spoke and they must have been able to
21 identify the soldiers who were involved in this
22 incident. I want to ask you this: do you remember being
23 spoken to about that incident?
24 A. I do not.
25 Q. Were you involved in that incident?
1 A. I was not.
2 Q. Were you a witness to it?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know anything at all about it?
5 A. I do not.
6 Q. You know 027; do you not?
7 A. I was not aware, I cannot remember him, no.
8 Q. You do not remember him? He seems to remember you
9 pretty well.
10 A. I do not remember him.
11 Q. Not even now?
12 A. No, no his name does not ring a bell at all.
13 Q. He puts you in the frame for this incident?
14 A. Referring back to this document, he says "a Saracen
15 armoured vehicle," we never used Saracen-armoured
16 vehicles.
17 Q. In any event, you know nothing about this incident?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. You were never questioned about it?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You are quite sure about that?
22 A. As far as -- to the best of my knowledge, yes.
23 Q. Your first RMP statement, 167.025, this is the first
24 statement that you made to the RMP and it was in the
25 early hours of 31st January; do you follow me?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were the contents of that statement true?
3 A. I made that statement at the time to the best of my
4 knowledge, yes.
5 Q. That is not the question I asked you: were the contents
6 of the statement true?
7 A. What I put down at the time was the truth as I saw it,
8 yes.
9 Q. The truth as you saw it? The truth is the truth. You
10 were making your statement when events were obviously
11 still very fresh in your mind?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. You were not one of these people who were confused or
14 tired when you were making this statement because, if
15 Father O'Keefe's evidence is right, whatever you had
16 been doing earlier on that day, you obviously had not
17 enough of it, because you were still engaged in the
18 ill-treatment of prisoners. One can see from the
19 photographs of the four people that you claim to have
20 arrested that you looked fairly calm and relaxed, if not
21 to say happy; is that not right?
22 A. A lot had happened that day, and we had been up for many
23 hours and you can say how I felt at the time.
24 Q. Whatever way you felt, it certainly did not stop you
25 from mistreating prisoners and whatever way you felt,
1 when one looks at the photographs of you with the four
2 individuals who you claim to have arrested, you seem
3 calm and relaxed, if not a little smug and happy?
4 A. No, that is not correct.
5 Q. It is clear from the first statement you made, the only
6 person that you claim to have shot in this first
7 statement was the person that you shot in Glenfada Park;
8 is that right?
9 A. If that is what the statement says, yes.
10 Q. Do you not know that?
11 A. Well, as we pointed out yesterday, there is a lot of
12 error and inconsistencies in the statements.
13 Q. Sorry?
14 A. There is a lot of errors and inconcurrents in the
15 statements.
16 Q. Yes, you are right, there are a lot of errors and
17 inconsistencies; there are also a lot of lies. You can
18 take it from me that in that statement the only person
19 that you admit to having shot was an individual in
20 Glenfada Park. Right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You did not admit or refer to the first person you had
23 shot and killed that day, Michael Kelly; is that right?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And you did not refer to the other person or persons
1 that you shot and killed at the south of Block 2 of
2 Rossville Flats; is that right?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Am I right -- correct me if I have this wrong -- is it
5 your evidence that when you made that statement, it
6 simply slipped your mind that you had killed a young
7 17-year old boy on the barricade; is that your evidence?
8 A. There was a lot happening out there.
9 Q. I know there was.
10 A. There was a lot of confusion.
11 Q. Is that your evidence, that it simply slipped your mind
12 when you made that first statement: that you had killed
13 a young 17-year old boy on the barricade; is that your
14 evidence?
15 A. My evidence is in black and white in the statements.
16 Q. Do I take it from that, therefore, that the answer to my
17 question is: yes, it did slip my mind?
18 A. I am saying my evidence is what I put in black and white
19 on the statements.
20 Q. Just answer my question, F, would you, please: does it
21 follow from what you are saying that it did just slip
22 your mind that you had killed a 17-year old boy when you
23 made that statement?
24 A. During the events of that day there was a lot of
25 confusion and it is possible, yes.
1 Q. The answer to my question is: yes, and it slipped your
2 mind?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it also the case that as far as the shootings which
5 you now admit took place at the south of Block 2 of the
6 Rossville Flats, that the killing or killings that took
7 place, that also just slipped your mind?
8 A. I made the statements after this and I actually put in
9 a relevant reference, what you are referring to.
10 Q. The other thing about this statement -- so I can be
11 clear about this: I take it, therefore, it follows from
12 what you have just said that in terms of the people, or
13 the person, or people that you killed at the back of the
14 Block 2 of Rossville Flats, that that also slipped your
15 mind?
16 A. You say the "persons" I killed, I did not kill persons.
17 Q. Person or persons?
18 A. Person.
19 Q. I am going to come to that, because you only admit
20 firing two rounds at the back of Rossville Flats; is
21 that not right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. We have only your evidence in relation to that. You may
24 have fired more rounds; may you not?
25 A. I did not.
1 Q. Are you sure about that?
2 A. According to my statements, I fired two rounds.
3 Q. I know you keep saying according to your statements, but
4 it is quite obvious that one cannot rely on anything at
5 all you say in your statements, F?
6 A. I can tell you what I can tell you; I can only tell you
7 what I remember.
8 Q. Let me come back to the point I was on: as far as this
9 first statement is concerned, Michael Kelly, who you
10 shot dead, he slipped your mind; whoever the person was
11 that you shot dead at the back of the Rossville Flats,
12 that also slipped your mind; is that not right?
13 A. I can only conclude what I have put in the statements.
14 Q. Just answer the question, F, we have been round this
15 course already, with Michael Kelly: it slipped your
16 mind; that is your evidence, is it not?
17 A. My evidence is not that it slipped my mind at all. You
18 are saying that, I am not saying that.
19 Q. You were the one who did not mention it in your
20 statement; is that not right?
21 A. There was a lot going on at the time --
22 Q. You keep saying that. Is that the reason it slipped
23 your mind?
24 A. It is possible, yes.
25 Q. Is there any other reason?
1 A. Due to the events of that day and what was going on,
2 a lot was happening that day.
3 Q. F, how could it possibly, truthfully, have slipped your
4 mind; how could it have gone out of your mind that you
5 had killed at least two other people that day, that you
6 did not make any mention of in your statement?
7 A. As I recently said: there was a lot of commotion going
8 on, there was confusions, there was explosions,
9 et cetera, et cetera, there was a lot going on and I was
10 trying to focus on what I was doing at that time,
11 et cetera.
12 Q. Yes. How would that have affected making your
13 statement?
14 A. (Pause).
15 Q. Mm-mm?
16 A. I was surely making the statements afterwards, I mean,
17 a lot was going on. The statements was not made
18 immediately.
19 Q. Was it not just you and the RMP?
20 A. I do not know who was there when the statements were
21 made out.
22 Q. In this statement as well you explain that you had
23 fired -- you admit to firing 13 shots in this statement,
24 but the first engagement that you refer to is an
25 engagement at Rossville Flats, when you say you fired
1 three rounds; do you follow me?
2 A. What part are you on?
3 Q. You can take it from me that in this statement the first
4 shooting that you admit to is firing three rounds in
5 Rossville Street, up at the flats before you go into
6 Glenfada Park; do you follow me?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You fired three rounds there and then you admit to
9 firing three rounds in Glenfada Park and then you admit
10 to firing two sets of four rounds after you come back
11 out on to Rossville Street and that makes a total of 13
12 rounds; do you follow me?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. That would mean that apart from the two rounds in
15 Glenfada Park, you accounted for the other 11 rounds by
16 reference to three separate engagements at
17 Rossville Flats, one involving three rounds at the
18 beginning and two involving eight rounds at the end; do
19 you follow me?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Then you make a series of statements after this and in
22 many of your subsequent statements you fail to make any
23 reference to the shooting on the barricade or the
24 shooting at the back of Rossville Flats; right?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Then, when you do come to admit for the first time, some
2 almost three weeks later, these events that had slipped
3 your mind -- not just when you made this first
4 statement, because you made a series of statements and
5 it did not just slip your mind when you were making your
6 first statement, these killings also apparently slipped
7 your mind when you were making your second statement and
8 your third statement and, indeed, your fourth statement,
9 although it has to be said that your fourth statement
10 was concerning arrests.
11 There are four statements. 31st January was the
12 first one; the second was 31st January; the third
13 supplementary statement was undated; and then your
14 fourth statement to the RMP was 15th February. There
15 are four statements, during the course of which you
16 never make any reference at all to the killings on
17 Rossville Street, or at the back of the flats; you have
18 no explanation for that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. They just, throughout that period of two or three weeks,
21 these killings just completely escaped your mind?
22 A. If that is what I have put in the statements, that is
23 what I have put in the statements.
24 Q. When you do come to admit it for the first time, that
25 was in the statement we have already seen, the statement
1 you made to Lieutenant Colonel Overbury, that was
2 a statement that you made on 19th February, that was
3 almost three weeks after the events; do you understand?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that is the very first time. So almost three weeks
6 later, that is the first time that you admit to having
7 killed somebody in Rossville Street and having killed
8 somebody at the back of Rossville Flats, right?
9 A. As I have put in the statement, yes.
10 Q. Interestingly enough, you still claim in that statement
11 to have discharged only 13 rounds?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Is that not right?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. But in order to explain this, whereas you had originally
16 said your first engagement involved the discharge of
17 three rounds at Rossville Flats, that drops out of the
18 equation completely. Whereas in your first statement
19 you said, "I fired 11 shots at Rossville Flats in three
20 engagements," by the time you come to make your
21 statement to Lieutenant Colonel Overbury, when you admit
22 to the killings on the barricade and at the back of the
23 Rossville Flats, you admit to only firing eight shots at
24 the Rossville Flats and the other three rounds you then
25 say are accounted for by the killings on the barricade
1 and at the back of Rossville Flats; is that not right?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. It is extraordinary; is it not? Is it not?
4 A. If you say so.
5 Q. Do you not think it is extraordinary?
6 A. Well, I fired 13 rounds total.
7 Q. That means when you made your first statement you claim
8 to have discharged three rounds at Rossville Flats at
9 a time when, according to your later statements, you
10 never discharged any rounds at all. In other words, in
11 your later statement you say, "I did not actually fire
12 three rounds at Rossville Flats before I went into
13 Glenfada Park"; is that not right? That drops out of
14 the equation completely?
15 A. It --
16 Q. Is that not right?
17 A. If you say so.
18 Q. F, you must have read these statements, I am sure, on
19 a number of occasions before you came to give evidence
20 to this Inquiry today?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you know as well as I do and as well as the other
23 people who are present here today, you know that in that
24 first statement, you claim to have fired three rounds in
25 Rossville Street up at the flats before you even went
1 into Glenfada Park; is that not right?
2 A. According to my statements, yes.
3 Q. Then, when three weeks later or almost three weeks later
4 you admit to the killing on the barricade and the
5 killing at the back of the Rossville Flats, you say that
6 that did not happen?
7 A. I cannot recollect that happening.
8 Q. No, but in your statement you say that it did not
9 happen?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that right?
12 A. (Witness nodding)
13 Q. That is how you then, by changing it round, by saying
14 you did not fire three shots up at the Rossville Flats
15 when you came -- when you were in Rossville Street,
16 before you moved into Glenfada Park, you are then able
17 to use those three rounds to deal with the killing of
18 Michael Kelly on the barricade and the killing at the
19 back of Rossville Flats?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is that right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You see the statement we have on the screen, you have
24 told us earlier on in your evidence, you had said you
25 were a scrupulous observer -- these are not your words,
1 I think the effect of what you said is that you were
2 a scrupulous observer of the Yellow Card; is that not
3 right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You always followed the Yellow Card?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. You are absolutely certain about that?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. In this statement here, do you see that sentence there:
10 "When we deployed and started to advance, I cocked
11 my weapon with one round in the breech."
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You then go on to describe how you advanced 30 yards or
15 so and I think it was only after you had advanced about
16 30 yards that you claim to have come under sniper fire,
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you telling the Inquiry that the account that you
20 gave there of deploying with your weapon already cocked
21 with one round in the breech prior to your ever having
22 been fired upon, that that was consistent with the
23 Yellow Card?
24 A. That was standard procedure in the Parachute Regiment,
25 to cock your weapon automatically.
1 Q. Before you were fired on?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. With one in the breech?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Are you sure about that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could we have on the screen, please, ED71.1. By the
8 way, this is the Yellow Card we have on the screen; you
9 recognise that?
10 A. I do not recognise it, but it is obviously the Yellow
11 Card.
12 Q. You can see at the bottom there, where I have put the
13 arrow, that it was enforced -- this is the revised
14 version from November 1971, so this was the version that
15 was operating at the time of Bloody Sunday?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "Your magazine/belt must always be loaded with live
18 ammunition and be fitted to the weapon. Unless you are
19 about to open fire, no live round is to be carried in
20 the breech."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Do you now accept that the description that you gave in
24 your first RMP statement about having your weapon cocked
25 with one round in the breech is inconsistent with the
1 Yellow Card as we see it on the screen?
2 A. The procedures that we used to follow --
3 Q. Just answer the question, please, and then you can give
4 your explanation afterwards: do you agree that what you
5 have described in your first RMP statement is a breach
6 of the yellow card as we see it on the screen?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Sorry, you were going to say something?
9 A. I was going to say the procedure we used to follow in
10 riot situations and where firing was -- had been heard,
11 or explosions, was to automatically place one round in
12 the breech, because if somebody was firing at you, you
13 did not have time. If you did have time to actually put
14 a round in the breech, then the gunman or whatever would
15 be --
16 Q. Yes, but no firing had been heard --
17 A. Firing had been heard.
18 Q. No, not according to your RMP statement. In this
19 statement that has just been looked at, the firing does
20 not occur until after you had advanced 30 yards and
21 prior to that point in time you had already got your
22 weapon cocked, with the round in the breech?
23 A. What about the firing initially, before we actually went
24 in?
25 Q. Do you make any reference to that in your RMP statement?
1 A. I do not, no.
2 Q. Is this another example, F, where you are caught
3 completely cold? There is all this rubbish about your
4 scrupulous adherence to the Yellow Card, where you can
5 see from your RMP statement, that is simply not true.
6 It is right to say that your statement does change,
7 and changes very significantly. Could I have on the
8 screen, please, 167.035. If we go to paragraph 2 of
9 your statement, just the sentence that begins:
10 "As soon as we left the vehicles the first thing
11 I heard was shots."
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That is not consistent with what you have said in your
15 first statement, because in your first statement you
16 indicated that you de-bussed and you had advanced
17 30 yards before you claim to have heard any fire; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. This statement is quite different, because you are now
21 claiming the first thing that happened to you after you
22 de-bussed was that you heard shots; is that not right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That is two completely different accounts; is it not?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. How do you explain that?
2 A. I cannot explain it.
3 Q. "As we left the vehicles, the first thing I heard was
4 shots coming from the direction of the Rossville Flats.
5 I then cocked my rifle ..."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. By the time you come to make this statement, you make it
9 Yellow Card, or it is made Yellow Card compliant, is it
10 not, because what is described in this statement would
11 be consistent with the Yellow Card?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. But not what was described in your first statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you explain that?
16 A. No, I cannot.
17 Q. You keep saying to the Inquiry, in question after
18 question, you resort to your statement. Which of the
19 statements is the Inquiry to resort to when it is trying
20 to determine -- when you resort to the statement, which
21 statement should the Inquiry resort to, because they
22 both cannot be true, sure they cannot?
23 A. It is what I made at the time.
24 Q. Is it right they both cannot be true?
25 A. I am not saying they are not true at all, it is not for
1 me to say.
2 Q. It is for you to say, because you are the author of the
3 statements?
4 A. Yes, it is in black and white.
5 Q. And they are two completely different statements.
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Which one is true?
8 A. As far as I wrote down at the time or it was made out at
9 the time, they were both true to the best of my
10 knowledge.
11 Q. They both cannot be true, can they?
12 A. That is not for me to say.
13 Q. If we go back to your evidence, 167.025. You see where
14 you refer to the 200 rioters and the nail bombs
15 exploding; do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we go over the page, please -- the top of the page is
18 where you are referring, for your own information and to
19 remind anyone if they need reminding, this is where you
20 admit to firing three rounds up at the Rossville Flats
21 before you go into Glenfada Park. You go on in the
22 third line to say:
23 "After these shots the sniper fire stopped and I saw
24 about 30 to 40 rioters leave the barricade."
25 Do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In the next sentence:
3 "On seeing this ['this' refers to the movement of
4 the 30 to 40 rioters] we moved position."
5 That is how you describe in that statement why you
6 made the move from Rossville Street into Glenfada Park;
7 do you follow me?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was that true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are you sure it was 30 to 40 rioters?
12 A. It could have been more, it could have been less. It is
13 just the assumption I made at the time, but to the
14 actual exact amount of rioters, I cannot, I could not
15 say, no. There was a group of people.
16 Q. F, there would be all the difference in the world
17 between, say, a handful of rioters on the one hand and
18 30 to 40 rioters on the other; would there not?
19 A. What I made at the time is what I heard and saw at the
20 time as a statement. I cannot recollect now how many
21 there were.
22 Q. Are you saying, therefore, what you said in that
23 statement is true?
24 A. If that is what I put in the statement it is true, yes.
25 Q. Of course, the only gunman in your first statement, as
1 far as Rossville Street and Glenfada Park is concerned,
2 you only ever refer to having seen the person that you
3 shot in Glenfada Park, who you say had an unexploded
4 nail bomb; is that not right?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. And you do not claim to have seen any gunmen on
7 Rossville Street before you went into Glenfada Park and
8 you do not claim in this statement to have seen any
9 gunmen in Glenfada Park; is that not right?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And the explanation you give for your movement from
12 Rossville Street to Glenfada Park is these 30 or 40
13 rioters who you pursued into Glenfada Park; is that
14 right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could I ask you then to go to your third statement.
17 This is at 167.031. This is your third statement to the
18 Royal Military Police. You refer to having come under
19 fire; do you follow? Then you say:
20 "I saw three men move from the barricade northwest
21 into the area of Glenfada Park flats. One of the men
22 was carrying what looked like a rifle."
23 First of all, the number of people that you claim to
24 have observed that precipitated your move into
25 Glenfada Park is significantly different from what you
1 described in your first statement; is that not so the?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. How do you explain that?
4 A. I cannot explain it.
5 Q. The reason you give as well is also quite different,
6 because you now claim for the first time to have seen
7 somebody with a rifle; is that not right?
8 A. As my statement indicates, yes.
9 Q. Why did you not mention that in your first statement?
10 A. I cannot explain that.
11 Q. Then, if you go further down the page, please, you refer
12 then to events inside Glenfada Park and you describe
13 your own activities, but you also describe what G did;
14 is that not right?
15 A. According to my statement, yes.
16 Q. And you claim to have seen G fire at another person
17 carrying what you thought was a rifle; is that right?
18 A. That is what my statement said, yes.
19 Q. In this statement, unlike your first statement, you now
20 have two gunmen who you never mentioned in your first
21 statement?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. The same gunman -- is it the same gunman, it is not
24 entirely clear -- a gunman, anyway -- you claim to have
25 seen in this statement a gunman in Rossville Street and
1 a gunman in Glenfada Park which you had never mentioned
2 before. Can you explain that?
3 A. I have no explanation for it, no.
4 Q. Again, which account is true; is it your first account
5 or your third account or do you just not know?
6 A. I do not know, it is a long time ago.
7 Q. Could I ask you to go to your second statement. This is
8 at 167.029. This is a statement where you refer to
9 having been shown what you described as a "collection of
10 photographs." Do you remember how many photographs you
11 were shown?
12 A. Could you repeat that question, please?
13 Q. In this statement you refer to having been shown
14 a collection of photographs on 31st January 1972 by
15 a corporal from the SIB; is that right?
16 A. That is what my statement said, yes.
17 Q. I was asking you, do you remember now how many
18 photographs you were shown?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You selected two of those photographs and you marked
21 Gerard Donaghy and you say:
22 "I was reasonably sure that I shot this man in
23 a full-scale riot in the Glenfada Flats on
24 30th January 1972."
25 It is quite clear Gerard Donaghy was shot in
1 Abbey Park and that he was shot by Soldier G, your best
2 mate; did you know that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You did not know that? The bullet was recovered from
5 him?
6 A. I was unaware of that.
7 Q. F, you described yourself yesterday as being "great
8 mates", was the term that you used?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. "Great mates" with Soldier G; is that not right?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And you continued to serve with him for a long, long
13 time after the events of Bloody Sunday; is that right?
14 A. A long, long time.
15 Q. Well, how long did you continue to serve with him for?
16 A. A couple of years.
17 Q. There will do. Are you seriously telling the Inquiry
18 that during that course of time, G, your "great mate",
19 never told you about the shots that he fired into
20 Abbey Park?
21 A. Not to my recollection, no.
22 Q. Could I ask you to look at AM18.4, please. I am about
23 to put on the screen here, this is a statement from one
24 of the wounded on Bloody Sunday, Joe Mahon, who was shot
25 in Glenfada Park; do you follow me?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you go to paragraph 22 and 23:
3 "After some time, I cannot say how long, the soldier
4 who had shot Jim Wray came back through the gap [he is
5 referring to the gap that leads from Glenfada Park North
6 into Abbey Park] and stood at the point which is marked
7 on the map. I saw him take his helmet off and wipe his
8 forehead with the back of his hand. His face was
9 blacked up and I could see that he had blond hair."
10 That must be a reference to G?
11 A. It is possible.
12 Q. There was no-one else there in Glenfada Park who was in
13 the Anti-Tank Platoon who had blond hair?
14 A. No, but there were some others in the platoon who were
15 blondish.
16 Q. We know, as I say, that G did fire into Abbey Park as
17 well:
18 "He then shouted out 'I have got another one'. From
19 the way he was looking, he was obviously shouting at
20 someone directly behind me, presumably a soldier who was
21 standing somewhere near the south gable end wall of the
22 eastern block of Glenfada Park North. I cannot say
23 whether he was referring to Jim Wray or another person
24 he could have shot when he had gone through the gap into
25 Abbey Park."
1 Do you remember your "great mate", G, shouting
2 something to the effect, "I got another one" or "I have
3 got another one"?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You do not remember anything like that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. In the days and weeks and months and years afterwards,
8 are you seriously telling everybody here that G never
9 told you about the ones that he had got in Abbey Park?
10 A. Not to my recollection.
11 Q. When you say not to your recollection, are you saying he
12 did or he did not?
13 A. He did not.
14 Q. It is not a question of you not remembering, you are
15 affirmatively asserting, as a fact, on evidence, on
16 oath, that G never told you about the ones he got in
17 Abbey Park?
18 A. Not to my knowledge.
19 Q. You change your language a bit, F. When you say not to
20 your knowledge, are you saying as a fact that G did not
21 tell you what he had done in Abbey Park or are you
22 saying you do not remember?
23 A. I am saying I do not remember at that particular time.
24 Q. Does it therefore follow from that that G may well have
25 told you what he did in Abbey Park, but you have simply
1 forgotten?
2 A. I have not forgotten, he just never mentioned it.
3 Q. So you do remember then?
4 A. I do not remember.
5 Q. F, are you here to play games with the Inquiry and with
6 the people who are here or are you here to tell the
7 truth?
8 A. I am here to tell the truth and to help the Inquiry as
9 much as I can.
10 Q. You have not helped us very far, have you? You have
11 told us nothing, absolutely nothing of substance at all
12 about what happened on Bloody Sunday, nothing?
13 A. I cannot tell you what I cannot remember.
14 Q. The position is, F, that you are simply unwilling to
15 tell this Inquiry what you did and what you saw on
16 Bloody Sunday?
17 A. No, that is not true.
18 Q. You know perfectly well that is the truth.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Treacy, I think you have actually put that
20 point more than once.
21 MR TREACY: If I could take you back then, witness F, to
22 167.029. In this statement you say you shot
23 Gerard Donaghy and you say:
24 "I shot this man in a full-scale riot in the
25 Glenfada Flats."
1 Do you see that? Was that true; was there
2 a full-scale riot in the Glenfada Flats?
3 A. If that is what I put in the statement, it was true to
4 the best of my knowledge, at that time.
5 Q. We have heard from one of the soldiers who was with you,
6 Mr Longstaff; do you remember him?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. He was there and he was in Glenfada Park; is that not
9 right?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. What was his role on the day?
12 A. I cannot remember exactly what his role was, but I knew
13 he would be with us.
14 Q. He would have been with you. Who else was with you in
15 Glenfada Park?
16 A. There was G and Mr Longstaff, from what I can remember.
17 Q. And you all went in through the same entrance?
18 A. I cannot say which entrance we went into, but we was in
19 the area, yes.
20 Q. You do not remember how you got into
21 Glenfada Park North, do you?
22 A. I was under the impression, which I put in my
23 statements, that I actually went in by foot.
24 Q. Sorry, you were referring to your entrance into
25 Rossville Flats. We know that you went into
1 Glenfada Park North on foot. Right. So I am talking
2 about Glenfada Park North; do you follow me?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You went in there with G and Longstaff, right, at least?
5 A. To the best of my knowledge anyway, yes.
6 Q. Longstaff's job, part of his job was to give you and G
7 cover; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the three of you would have went in together.
10 Whatever entrance you went in, the three of you would
11 have went in together?
12 A. It is possible we went in together.
13 Q. You say here that there was a full-scale riot.
14 Mr Longstaff has given evidence and he said there was no
15 full-scale riot going on?
16 A. Okay, I have no recollection, as I have said before now
17 of the events, but if I put that in my statement, that
18 is what happened.
19 Q. Could I take you to what you told Lord Widgery, this is
20 at B162, just below the letter B, you are being
21 questioned:
22 "Question: When you came in, you told my Lord there
23 were three men directly in front of you, but as you
24 later described, at the southern end of the courtyard?
25 "Answer: Yes.
1 "Question: Were there any other civilians in the
2 courtyard that you could see at that time?
3 "Answer: No.
4 "Question: Not a crowd of people?
5 "Answer: No."
6 You see there is a vast contradiction between your
7 assertion in your second RMP statement that there was
8 a full-scale riot going on in Glenfada Park North with
9 the evidence that you then came to give to Lord Widgery
10 when you say there was not a crowd of people and there
11 were three people directly in front of you at the
12 southern end of flats; do you see the vast difference
13 between those two accounts?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Completely different; are they not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is the explanation for that?
18 A. I have no explanation.
19 Q. Which one is true? Is it in your statement because your
20 statement was earlier?
21 A. I made my statement at the time, but I have no
22 explanation because of the inaccuracies of them, I have
23 no explanation at all.
24 Q. You have no explanation at all?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Is it just not only do you have a casual disregard for
2 life, F, but you also have a casual disregard for the
3 truth?
4 A. That is not correct.
5 Q. And you think you can come here and hoodwink everybody
6 and expect them to believe you, that you do not remember
7 any of this?
8 A. That is not correct.
9 Q. May I also ask you to look at your Overbury statement.
10 This is at 167.037. It is the last paragraph. What you
11 describe -- this portion of your statement is dealing
12 with the engagements which took place at Rossville Flats
13 after you have come out of Glenfada Park; do you follow
14 me?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you refer to a number of engagements there in which,
17 again, eight shots were involved; do you follow me?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You then say, in the very last three lines:
20 "On each occasion I saw [you are referring to the
21 shots that you discharged at the Rossville Flats and the
22 gunmen you claim to have seen] a man a rifle who had on
23 each occasion fired in our direction."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was that true?
2 A. I cannot recollect now if that is true. If that is what
3 I put in the statement, that is what it is.
4 Q. The problem for you, F -- and I am not going to go to
5 all the other statements, the Inquiry can read them for
6 themselves. That is the first time that you ever
7 claimed that on each occasion on which you discharged
8 shots up at Rossville Flats, that on each occasion you
9 had been fired upon by a gunman; did you know that?
10 A. Can you repeat that question, please?
11 Q. I will give you one example of it. If you go to
12 B167.027. This is your first statement and what you say
13 there -- again you are referring -- this is at the end
14 of your involvement in Rossville Flats and you say your
15 radio operator said there was a sniper up in the flats:
16 "I jumped out of the vehicle and took up a firing
17 position beside the vehicle. The operator told me where
18 he had seen the gunman and I saw something move in the
19 window. I fired approximately four aimed shots at this
20 window and I saw all four shots strike in the area of
21 the window."
22 There is no reference to you having been fired on;
23 is that right?
24 A. That is what my statement says, yes.
25 Q. How do you reconcile what was there with what was in
1 your statement to Lieutenant Colonel Overbury?
2 A. As I say, I do not recollect that, I have no explanation
3 at all.
4 Q. In that statement you do not even claim to have seen the
5 gunman, all you claim to have seen was something move in
6 the window; is that not right?
7 A. That is what the statement says, yes.
8 Q. Despite the fact that you only saw something move in the
9 window, you do not know whether it was a man, a woman,
10 a child or what it was, you still opened up with four
11 shots at it; is that right?
12 A. It says, "I do not know if I hit the gunman or not."
13 Q. What you say is, you were told by -- according to this,
14 you were told by the radio operator that he had seen a
15 gunman and you say, "I saw something move in the
16 window," so you did not know what you were shooting at;
17 is that not right?
18 A. If the radio operator at that time said he saw a gunman
19 in the window, then I would take his word for it.
20 Q. That means, therefore, when you fired those four shots,
21 you did not know what you were firing at?
22 A. I was firing in the window or the vicinity of the window
23 and the intention --
24 Q. How do you know you were firing at the window that he
25 had told you?
1 A. Because I would presume that he pointed the one out.
2 Q. In any event, you see, you do not claim, unlike your
3 later statement, to have been fired upon by that
4 particular gunman. Tell me, would you agree with me
5 that if you were just firing at something moving in the
6 window, when you could not see what you were firing at
7 that, that would be a clear breach of the Yellow Card?
8 A. It all depends which way you look at it.
9 Q. What do you mean by that?
10 A. Well, if I -- as it says in the statement, the radio
11 operator told me there was a gunman up there, so I would
12 have fired at the window, hoping to either -- to kill or
13 injure the gunman, to stop him returning the fire on
14 troops.
15 Q. Could I ask you, please, to look at L1, please. Before
16 I come to this, you had mentioned earlier on that there
17 were other people who had blondish hair, did you say, in
18 your platoon?
19 A. Blondish, fairish.
20 Q. Who were they?
21 A. I cannot remember. I mean, there was a few people.
22 Q. Why do you not remember?
23 A. It is 31 years ago.
24 Q. How do you remember what colour hair they had?
25 A. I remember vaguely. I mean, we all had hair in those
1 days.
2 Q. You see this is an article or letter that was being
3 reported upon which had been written to the News of the
4 World on 18th July 1971, do you follow me?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "Gutless cowards who bait our boys." This was a letter
7 that was written by 16 members of the
8 Parachute Regiment, apparently who were incensed by the
9 murder of a number of their colleagues the week before
10 the letter was written; do you follow me?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember that letter?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you one of the 16 soldiers who signed it?
15 A. No, I have no recollection of this.
16 Q. Might you have been one?
17 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
18 Q. In fact, in 1972 the Anti-Tank Platoon, it was one of
19 the most experienced platoons; is that right?
20 A. I think the whole battalion was experienced.
21 Q. The Anti-Tank Platoon was particularly experienced?
22 A. No, I do not think so.
23 Q. And you were one of the most experienced people within
24 that platoon?
25 A. No, I would not say that.
1 Q. In any event, if you go down to the -- here you see it
2 says:
3 "We have heard a lot in the press lately about
4 soldiers in Belfast. We'd like on behalf of our mates
5 to tell you how we, the Parachute soldiers, feel."
6 Further on down, towards the bottom of the left-hand
7 column, please. You see where it says there:
8 "We just want to get at them. But we want to do it
9 properly."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. I see that, yes.
12 Q. That was in July 1971. You see the title of the
13 article, the title of the article was, "Gutless cowwards
14 who bait our boys".
15 Was that a sentiment that you shared, F?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you sure about that?
18 A. I am sure, yes.
19 Q. You remember that?
20 A. What, this particular article?
21 Q. What you just said?
22 A. Are you referring to the article?
23 Q. No, I am referring now to the sentiment. I asked you:
24 was that a sentiment that you shared at the time and you
25 said: no, and I am saying: do you remember that?
1 A. No. You are saying I remembered saying it at the time
2 or --
3 Q. No, do you remember whether or not you shared that
4 sentiment at the time?
5 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
6 Q. If I could have on the screen, please, C1334.1. If we
7 could highlight paragraph 4. I do not think I need to
8 read the entirety of it to you. It is reference to an
9 article which had appeared in the Daily Mirror, entitled
10 "Beaten dogs," and this particular soldier, who was
11 a lance corporal in C Company of the Parachute Regiment
12 said that he felt very emotional about that headline
13 because the lads did not deserve it. He says:
14 "We were looking forward to a chance to put things
15 right."
16 Was that a sentiment that you shared?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you saying you remember that?
19 A. I do not remember this article at all, no.
20 Q. Again, I am asking you about how you felt at the
21 time: do you remember how you felt at the time?
22 A. At that particular time, no.
23 Q. So it is an actual recollection you have of how you
24 felt?
25 A. No, I mean I was there for two years, I mean, I cannot
1 tell you how I felt every day.
2 Q. I do not think this is a sentiment that is being
3 expressed about how an individual soldier felt on one
4 day. What those articles reveal is a mindset amongst
5 a large group of paratroopers over a period of time, who
6 were obviously very unhappy about the way things were
7 working out in Derry. Do you not remember any of that?
8 A. If that was what those people were thinking at the time,
9 that was what they were thinking, I am not to say
10 I thought that as well.
11 Q. That is what I am asking about. Are you saying that you
12 remember not thinking that or you do not have any
13 recollection at all?
14 A. I do not have any recollection at all.
15 Q. We know you shot and killed Michael Kelly because the
16 bullet that you fired was recovered from his body; you
17 know that, do you not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The overwhelming evidence in this case is that
20 Michael Kelly was completely and utterly innocent at the
21 time he was shot; do you follow me?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you did not make any reference to having shot him,
24 as we know, in your RMP statement, and the man who shot
25 Michael Kelly, who shot an unarmed 17-year old boy, do
1 you agree with me, that a person who would do such
2 a thing is a coward?
3 A. That is your sentiment, it is not for me to say.
4 Q. Do you not agree?
5 A. It is not for me to say a thing like that.
6 Q. You are the person who shot him?
7 A. I would not agree with that, no.
8 Q. Have you not even got the guts now, F, in 2003 -- you
9 know that not only did you kill this 17-year old boy,
10 but you broke a lot of hearts that day, including
11 Mrs Kelly, his mother -- to such an extent that from
12 time to time she could be found in the graveyard, on
13 a cold night, with blankets, to put them over the grave
14 of her son to keep him warm; did you know that?
15 A. I did not know that, no.
16 Q. Have you not got the guts now, F, to tell all of the
17 people who are here the circumstances in which you
18 killed Michael Kelly?
19 A. The circumstances which I was involved in in that day
20 was, I felt a threat to my life and the life of my
21 fellow soldiers were under threat and I acted in
22 accordance with the Yellow Card, apart from that point
23 you mentioned earlier, and I thought my life was in
24 danger.
25 Q. Can I also ask you to look at P7. This is
1 your trajectory photograph of the two shots you claim to
2 have fired in Glenfada Park, do you follow me, from the
3 northeast corner, over in a southwesterly direction, do
4 you see that?
5 A. Where your arrows are indicating?
6 Q. You see Glenfada Park North, I will arrow it for you
7 now. (Indicating)
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Those are the two shots that you admitted firing in
10 Glenfada Park North?
11 A. According to my statement, yes.
12 Q. Could I also ask you to look, please, at P194. You have
13 seen this photograph before?
14 A. I saw it yesterday, yes.
15 Q. Was that the first time you have seen it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you sure about that?
18 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
19 Q. We know that the man lying in the gutter is Willy
20 McKinney, and we know that the man lying behind him on
21 the footpath was the injured Joe Mahon, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Having regard to the trajectory photograph which I have
24 just shown to you, do you accept that you are probably
25 the person who shot Willy McKinney?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Why not?
3 A. Because I do not.
4 Q. Why are you so sure that you did not kill Willy
5 McKinney?
6 A. I am not sure.
7 Q. You said yesterday affirmatively, you did not say: I do
8 not recollect, you said affirmatively yesterday and
9 again today, that you did not kill Willy McKinney; do
10 you follow me?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Why are you so sure?
13 A. Because in my statements it says I went down further and
14 fired at the, um, the man with the pistol, there is
15 nothing -- reference to that.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Treacy, I shall leave it entirely to you,
17 but you might draw the witness's attention to 122, the
18 second page of the first RMP statement, describing the
19 two shots which, according to this statement, this
20 witness fired in Glenfada Park where he says in that
21 statement they hit the body and then perhaps show him or
22 tell him what wounds this man received, as we know from
23 autopsies and the like.
24 MR TREACY: The problem, F, in relation to your account, of
25 course, about what transpired in Glenfada Park, is that
1 you claim to have fired two shots, both of which you say
2 hit the same target, once in the arm and once in the
3 chest.
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. And the person that you describe having shot was someone
6 who was facing you with an unexploded nail bomb; is that
7 right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. I have to suggest to you that the evidence is that the
10 account that you gave and the circumstances that you
11 have described do not fit either the civilian evidence
12 or the forensic evidence that we know about the people
13 who were killed and injured in Glenfada Park, because
14 all of the injuries that were sustained by the people in
15 Glenfada Park were to the right side of their body and
16 they are consistent with them all having been running
17 across Glenfada Park North in order to escape out
18 through into Abbey Park?
19 LORD SAVILLE: Forgive me for interrupting, Mr Treacy, that
20 was not quite the point I had in mind. It is, according
21 to this first RMP statement, these shots were at this
22 individual -- forget for the moment what the statement
23 says the individual was doing -- and it describes where
24 he was hit, and we do actually know, but I will leave it
25 to your judgment as to whether you want to pick it up,
1 that Mr McKinney was in fact hit twice.
2 MR TREACY: Yes. You may be right, sir. I am not sure
3 whether it is just as black and white as that, but if it
4 be the case that, in addition to the factors I have
5 outlined to you, your trajectory photograph -- the
6 position of Willy McKinney in this photograph that is on
7 the screen and the fact that Willy McKinney may have
8 been hit twice, does that not suggest to you you might
9 have been the person who was responsible for killing
10 Willy McKinney.
11 A. If the ballistic tests were corresponding to my rifle --
12 Q. F, you know perfectly well that the ballistic tests only
13 tie you into the killing of Michael Kelly; do you not?
14 A. Well, I cannot confirm that I have shot these people
15 that you have arrowed.
16 Q. If I could have on the screen, please, E2.0042. We have
17 on the screen here a description of the injuries to
18 Willy McKinney and you see where it says, "Injury":
19 "There were two entry and two exit wounds, one
20 injury involving the body and one injury the left arm."
21 Does that assist you in determining whether or not
22 you might have been the person who was responsible for
23 killing Willy McKinney?
24 A. No, it does not, no.
25 Q. You see, your assertion yesterday and again today that
1 you are definitely not the person who killed Willy
2 McKinney, that is what you told us yesterday, and what
3 you have told us again today?
4 A. I have no recollection of that at all.
5 Q. Do you know if it was somebody else who killed him?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. I ask you to look, E2.0045 -- this is really, sir, in
8 relation to the reservation I had.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Indeed, you are quite right. I was looking
10 at a summary I have and that summary contains -- it
11 summarises both wounds could have been caused by the
12 same bullet or, equally, by two bullets.
13 MR TREACY: I want to suggest to you that in relation to
14 Abbey Park you know perfectly well, Soldier F, you know
15 that it was your great mate G who shot Gerry McKinney
16 and Gerard Donaghy in Abbey Park; you know that.
17 A. I do not, I did not know what he was doing at the time.
18 Q. I also want to suggest to you that you may well -- there
19 were a number of people who were killed and wounded at
20 the back of Block 2 of Rossville Flats, including
21 a Mr Campbell and a Mr McGowan; do you follow me? You
22 only admit to having fired two shots at the back?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. I am asking you: could it be that you fired more than
25 two shots?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And are you the person who is responsible not only for
3 the deaths that occurred there, but also the woundings?
4 A. No, as I said in my statements, I fired the two rounds
5 at the man with the pistol.
6 Q. Taking you back to the beginning again, as far as young
7 Michael Kelly is concerned, we know from all the
8 evidence that you are the person who shot this young
9 innocent 17-year old dead. I want to suggest to you --
10 I want to accuse you on behalf of the family of
11 Michael Kelly, of having murdered that young boy.
12 A. I do not agree with that because --
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Questioned by MS McDERMOTT
15 MS McDERMOTT: Soldier F, I represent the family of the late
16 Patrick Doherty. He is the man that you shot dead over
17 by Joseph Place. Do you remember being shown
18 a photograph of his dead body yesterday?
19 A. There were some photographs I was shown of bodies, yes.
20 Q. Do you remember that one --
21 LORD SAVILLE: I think we will put it up, Ms McDermott,
22 please.
23 MS McDERMOTT: P714, please.
24 A. Yes, I remember that from yesterday.
25 Q. He is the person you shot dead over by Joseph Place. He
1 was a working man, aged 31; he had a good job; he was
2 a family man and he left a widow, aged 29, and six
3 children, who were aged between 11 years and seven
4 months old, and all of them are here today, along with
5 grandchildren of course he never saw, who never saw him,
6 because that is the human reality of what happened on
7 this day; is that not right?
8 A. If you say so.
9 Q. Do you not know that?
10 A. Well, on reference what you have just told me?
11 Q. He was unarmed, an innocent man and the Doherty family
12 would like to know how it came about that you shot him
13 dead. They are entitled to know that; do you agree?
14 A. They are.
15 Q. Are you aware that your own counsel has conceded that he
16 was not armed; do you know that?
17 MR GLASGOW: I am sorry, sir, I really must say again,
18 I have already done it three times now, I said exactly
19 what I said with the authority of those whom I represent
20 and it has been consistently misrepresented.
21 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, you have to be rather careful about
22 being precise with regard to what Mr Glasgow did say.
23 MS McDERMOTT: Yes, I have the transcript of his opening at
24 Day 51, page 21. It need not be put up unless anyone
25 requires it to be, where he says:
1 "We will not contend, unless of course some new
2 evidence that you produce alters the position, that
3 those individuals who have been identified were armed
4 with lethal weapons."
5 Were you aware that that had been said?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You are aware, no doubt, that Lord Widgery found that if
8 you thought that Mr Doherty was armed with a pistol,
9 then you were mistaken. You know that, do you not?
10 A. If that is what was in the statement, yes.
11 Q. No, not in the statement, in Lord Widgery's report, in
12 the findings that he made, having listened to the
13 evidence at his inquiry?
14 A. I have no recollection of that.
15 Q. You were not aware of that?
16 A. I have no recollection of that statement that you have
17 just mentioned.
18 Q. Is it the position, then, that during all the years that
19 you have spent in the Army post-1972, you were not aware
20 that Lord Widgery had found that you had probably shot
21 a man who, if you believed he was armed, you were
22 mistaken?
23 A. I have no recollection of that now.
24 Q. Why have you come here, Soldier F?
25 A. I was asked to come here to assist the Inquiry.
1 Q. Have you come because if you do not come you realise you
2 could end up going to prison?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And is that the real reason?
5 A. No, I am here -- the real reason I am here is to assist
6 the Inquiry and tell the truth.
7 Q. That is another lie, is it not?
8 A. I do not think so, no.
9 Q. You have been asked whether you have seen any of the
10 other witnesses who have given evidence or who will be
11 giving evidence and who were there on the day. You have
12 denied that. Have you spoken to any of them by
13 telephone or been in contact by any other means?
14 A. No.
15 Q. I want to suggest to you that you have lied about the
16 death of Mr Doherty at every opportunity, including
17 perjuring yourself at the Widgery Tribunal and here
18 yesterday and also today; do you follow?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I suggest that first of all in your first RMP statement
21 you lied by not telling the investigators that you had
22 shot Mr Doherty dead, although you knew perfectly well
23 that you had done so; do you understand?
24 A. I understand what you are saying, yes.
25 Q. You had some difficulty, when my learned friend
1 Mr Treacy was asking you questions a while ago, in
2 accepting his phrase that killings had slipped your
3 mind; do you remember being asked about that this
4 morning?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Might 167.047 be put on the screen, please. This is
7 a transcript, F, of the evidence that you gave at the
8 Widgery Tribunal. Just about the middle of the page,
9 above the letter D. At that stage you are being asked
10 questions by Mr Gibbens --
11 LORD SAVILLE: The arrow is in the wrong place, it is just
12 above D.
13 MS McDERMOTT: Do you see that, you are being asked about
14 the shooting to the south of Block 2 and you were asked:
15 "Question: Why did you not tell the SIB about
16 that?"
17 Your answer was:
18 "Answer: At the present time, sir, it slipped my
19 mind, what with the other events that happened.
20 "Question: What with the other events?
21 "Answer: Shooting the other two bombers."
22 That is an expression that you used yourself at that
23 time; is it not?
24 A. That is what is stated, yes.
25 Q. That is the evidence that you wished to give then and
1 that is the evidence that you wish to give now?
2 A. According to that statement, yes, but I have no
3 recollection of it.
4 Q. First of all, of course, you had not told the SIB about
5 the other two bombers, had you? You had told them only
6 about killing one person in your first statement. You
7 have been brought through that and I do not intend to go
8 over it again.
9 Do you remember earlier this morning you were asked
10 by Mr Treacy, do you remember being here yesterday and
11 there was some laughter --
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. -- in the chamber because it is ludicrous, is it not,
14 that a person would not remember being here yesterday?
15 A. I think, referring to 31 years ago and these statements,
16 I mean --
17 Q. I am not asking you about 31 years ago, F, I am asking
18 you about the early hours of the morning of
19 31st January, less than 12 hours after you had killed
20 a man -- you understand that I am asking you questions
21 just about the death of Mr Doherty? I realise you had
22 killed other people too, but you had killed Mr Doherty
23 less than 12 hours before and it had slipped your mind
24 that you had done so. That just defies belief; does it
25 not?
1 A. If you think so; I do not.
2 Q. Are you not treating the families and the Tribunal with
3 contempt by coming along and sticking to your evidence
4 that it slipped your mind to mention to the Royal
5 Military Police that you had shot him dead?
6 A. Not at all. I appreciate on that particular day there
7 was possibly innocent people killed, but the people that
8 I fired on and killed were the bombers or gunmen.
9 Q. And you forgot about it?
10 A. According to my statement.
11 Q. Whoever it was you killed or why ever it was you killed
12 them, you forgot about it?
13 A. There was a lot of events happening that day.
14 Q. And that is the way you want your evidence to remain,
15 because this is the last opportunity that you have to
16 help the Tribunal and to tell the truth?
17 A. It is not the way I want it, it is what is in the
18 statement. I cannot retract what is in the statement
19 and it was 31 years ago and I just cannot recollect it.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Ms McDermott, I think we are really retracing
21 points and ground that have been amply and properly
22 covered by Mr Treacy.
23 MS McDERMOTT: I will move on. Of course, I am
24 concentrating on the death of Mr Doherty.
25 LORD SAVILLE: I follow that entirely, but I think this
1 particular aspect of the matter has already been
2 thoroughly covered.
3 MS McDERMOTT: I respectfully accept that.
4 I want to suggest to you as well, F, that you lied
5 to Colonel Overbury on 19th February by inventing a man
6 with a pistol, when the reality was that you had shot at
7 Mr Doherty, an unarmed and completely innocent civilian?
8 A. That is not correct. I made that statement, to the best
9 of my ability, and truthfully at that particular time.
10 Q. Do you stick to the evidence that you gave before
11 Lord Widgery: that the thing that reminded you that you
12 had shot Mr Doherty was looking at aerial photographs?
13 A. If that is what I said in the statement.
14 Q. Do you want to stick to that?
15 A. If that is what I said in the statement.
16 Q. Then you want to stick to it?
17 A. If that is what I said in the statement, yes.
18 Q. The point has already been made to you, I make it
19 briefly in relation to this aspect of your
20 evidence: when you say you want to stick to a statement,
21 it really depends, in your case, which statement you
22 want to stick to, does it not, because many of them say
23 very different things?
24 A. That is right, there is a lot of inaccuracies amongst
25 them all. I have no explanation for that.
1 Q. It does not stand to reason either, I suggest to you,
2 that a person would be reminded that he killed a man by
3 being asked to look at an aerial photograph almost three
4 weeks later?
5 A. Surely that would be due to the ballistics from the
6 rounds, to indicate what person you shot.
7 Q. I am not asking you about that, F, I am asking you about
8 your memory and how your memory might be jogged, and
9 I am suggesting to you it is ludicrous to suggest that
10 you could kill a man and only remember about it because
11 you had been shown an aerial photograph? The reality of
12 the situation, I suggest to you, by the time you were
13 being interviewed by Colonel Overbury, it was clear
14 civilians had been shot in this particular area and that
15 you were a prime candidate for having shot them and for
16 having shot Mr Doherty in particular, and you invented
17 a man with a pistol in order to try to justify the
18 murder that you had committed?
19 A. That is not correct.
20 Q. When you say it is not correct, of course, the Tribunal
21 should bear in mind, should it not, that you have
22 absolutely no recollection and can only go by things,
23 the different things that you said to different people
24 at the time?
25 A. The statements that have been shown, yes.
1 Q. And no independent recollection?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. You were interviewed also by the Treasury Solicitor, and
4 although that is undated, it appears to be after you
5 were interviewed by Colonel Overbury. Are you aware
6 that in that statement, that is the first occasion on
7 which you mention that the man you shot was crouching or
8 in a crouched position. Do you know that?
9 A. Which statement are you referring to?
10 Q. This is the statement you made to the Treasury
11 Solicitor. It can be found at B137.
12 Do you recognise that statement?
13 A. Could you highlight it, please?
14 Q. If I might go to 138, please, and highlight the top half
15 of the page. You see there at paragraph 6, the
16 paragraph beginning:
17 "I then asked G to cover me as I heard pistol
18 shots ..."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. And further down the paragraph:
22 "I then shouted to G 'there is a gunman down here'.
23 I then took two aimed shots and he fell to the ground.
24 He was in a half-crouching position, moving to the right
25 as I shot him."
1 You may take it from me that that is the first
2 occasion on which you mention "a half-crouching
3 position." I want to ask you, was that because
4 Dr Carson, the pathologist's report was available to the
5 people who were interviewing you -- I suppose it is
6 pointless to ask you whether you have any recollection
7 of seeing that?
8 A. I am not aware of it, no.
9 Q. D0400, the bottom half of the page. This is part of the
10 opinion of Dr Carson on the autopsy findings of
11 Mr Doherty. Do you see there the sentence beginning:
12 "It is virtually impossible for the deceased ..."
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "It is virtually impossible for the deceased to have
15 sustained the wound whilst standing erect at ground
16 level. He must either have been standing at a height
17 when the bullet would have come from below, behind him
18 and to his right, or bending forwards, or lying at
19 ground level, when the bullet would have come from
20 behind and to his right, on a more or less horizontal
21 plane."
22 Do you have any recollection of that being put to
23 you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was that why, for the first time, you mentioned that he
1 was in a "half crouching position"?
2 A. What, because of this, this statement here?
3 Q. Yes?
4 A. No.
5 Q. The proper answer, F, is that you cannot remember; is
6 that not right?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. I suggest to you that you had to invent this convoluted
9 and ludicrous physical position which you say the man
10 with the pistol adopted in order to cover for the fact
11 that you had shot Mr Doherty in the way that you knew
12 you had shot him, in other words, from behind, in the
13 buttock?
14 Let me put to you what really happened. I am going
15 to ask you to look at the statement or the evidence
16 rather of a Mrs Donna Harken, Day 171, page 126 and 127.
17 She has described how Mr Doherty was the last in a line
18 of people who were trying to take shelter in
19 Joseph Place. At line 5:
20 "Answer: From lying flat on the ground he raised on
21 his knee as if to make a dive forward, but stayed down
22 low and, as he got up on his knee, that is when I seen
23 him being shot.
24 "Question: So as he raised himself on his knee, did
25 that have the effect of bringing him on to all fours?
1 "Answer: Yes, it would have been like someone
2 starting a race, you know, the way the runners bend down
3 to start, to go forward, except he would have been far
4 lower than that, you know.
5 "Question: At that moment you saw a bullet enter
6 the bottom of his right buttock and you say you saw the
7 entry wound?
8 "Answer: That is correct."
9 I suggest to you that that is the way in which
10 Mr Doherty was killed, and killed by you, while crawling
11 away and trying to reach a place of safety?
12 May I short-circuit matters by asking you whether
13 your answer to that is that you cannot remember?
14 A. I cannot remember exactly what he was saying there, but
15 I mean, as far as I was concerned, there was a person
16 with a pistol. I shot the person. Where the actual
17 bullet struck at that particular time, I do not know,
18 except what is in front of me here.
19 Q. I put it to you in this way: that the account that you
20 give does not begin to fit with the civilian and the
21 forensic evidence and further than that, I want to
22 suggest to you that shooting continued for
23 a considerable time, perhaps up to five minutes. If you
24 look for a moment at page 127, at the top half of the
25 page, Mrs Harken goes on to say -- and she is referring
1 to a Mr Patrick Walsh, who heroically came out of
2 Joseph Place to try to give assistance to Mr Doherty,
3 and referring to Mr Walsh, Mrs Harken says:
4 "Question: Crawling out on his stomach north from
5 the opening of the alleyway to the east of Joseph Place.
6 Although for about five minutes he tried to reach
7 Mr Doherty, he could not make it because of the
8 continuous shooting from Glenfada Park?"
9 Do you have any memory of that either?
10 A. I have no recollection of that, no.
11 Q. Mrs Harken was a 15-year-old girl at the time. She
12 ended her evidence by saying this -- I do not ask for it
13 to be put up. She said to his Lordship:
14 "Can I have one moment to say something very
15 briefly? Mr Doherty was murdered and there is a lot of
16 photographs showing Mr Doherty in his final moments and
17 I believe he was an innocent man that was murdered.
18 I hope the soldiers that have been given the bravery
19 awards after that, that when this investigation is over,
20 that those awards or those medals be returned, because
21 it was a coward that shot Mr Doherty, not even shooting
22 him in the back, they shot him as he was crawling away,
23 trying to save himself."
24 That was you, was it not?
25 A. I shot the gunman at that time, yes.
1 Q. He was not a gunman; nobody is now saying that he was
2 a gunman?
3 A. That is what those people are saying in those
4 statements, I can only say and refer to what I put in
5 the statement at that particular time.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Ms McDermott, I will leave it to you, I am
7 beginning to wonder about the utility of this.
8 MS McDERMOTT: I was going to move on, in any event, sir.
9 I suggest to you that you picked him off because you
10 could; there was nobody else about in this area when you
11 shot Mr Doherty in order to kill him; you say that
12 yourself, do you remember that?
13 A. As I said in my statement, I shouted there was a gunman
14 down there and that is when I went to the wall and fired
15 at a gunman.
16 Q. I do not ask for it to be put up, but in your statement
17 to Colonel Overbury, you say:
18 "He was the only person in the area from which the
19 gunfire had come."
20 Indeed, I suggest that you are half right about
21 that; he was certainly the only person in that area when
22 you shot him. You were not under any threat from him or
23 anybody else, I suggest to you. You shot him just
24 because you were able to do it?
25 A. That is not --
1 Q. In through the buttock, out through the heart, one shot,
2 he never moved again. You are an experienced rifleman
3 and gunman; are you not?
4 A. A gunman.
5 Q. You were then and certainly in all the years that you
6 spent in the Army since, you are very experienced at
7 shooting?
8 A. I had experience in many things.
9 Q. Is shooting one of them?
10 A. That is one of the --
11 Q. Sorry?
12 A. That is one of the points, yes.
13 Q. That was a cowardly shot; was it not?
14 A. I do not agree with that.
15 Q. You cannot remember anything about it?
16 A. I am just referring to your question.
17 Q. Do you know anything about hunting?
18 A. Hunting?
19 Q. Hunting animals?
20 A. Something about them, yes.
21 Q. Do you ever engage in that yourself?
22 A. What, now?
23 Q. At any time?
24 A. I used to, yes.
25 Q. It is a well-known hunting shot, is it not, the shot
1 that you used to shoot Mr Doherty dead?
2 A. Which shot are you referring to?
3 Q. A Texas heart shot; have you ever heard of that?
4 A. No, I have not heard of that one, no.
5 Q. The sort of shot that you take if you can get no other
6 kind of shot?
7 A. Normally --
8 Q. A cheap shot?
9 A. Normally on a hunting shot you shoot to kill the animal,
10 to cause less pain and less damage, to put the animal
11 out of its misery, you do not just shoot anywhere.
12 Q. That is the way you shot Mr Doherty, was it not, as if
13 you were hunting him down like an animal?
14 A. That is not correct.
15 Q. You were asked yesterday about whether you had spoken to
16 your mate, G, before you made your first statement to
17 the RMP, and you said that you had not been speaking to
18 him.
19 Did you know that G's first statement to the RMP was
20 made at 2.15 am on the same day as you, just 11 minutes
21 after yours was finished?
22 A. Not to my recollection, no.
23 Q. Do you know that you told the Widgery Tribunal that
24 everyone had been milling around in the barracks waiting
25 to make statements for about four hours before you were
1 called upon?
2 A. No.
3 Q. It is ridiculous, is it not, F, in those circumstances,
4 to imagine that you were not speaking to your mate, your
5 oppo, G, about what you had seen and done and about what
6 he had seen and done and about what you were going to
7 say to the Royal Military Police? That just defies
8 belief, does it not, that you did not discuss it with
9 each other?
10 A. It is possible, yes.
11 Q. It is possible that it defies belief. I will settle for
12 that.
13 You were clearly interviewed as a pair -- I do not
14 mean to suggest that you were interviewed together, but
15 you were interviewed and then he was interviewed,
16 because you had been together; do you agree?
17 A. I cannot recollect --
18 LORD SAVILLE: I do not know that this witness could
19 necessarily help. It seems to me that is a perfectly
20 good point, it may well be absolutely correct, but I am
21 not sure this witness can help, can he?
22 MS McDERMOTT: I want to ask him one more thing about it and
23 I suspect he will not be able to help us about that
24 either, if I might be allowed to ask him: are you aware
25 that G did not remember anything about you shooting to
1 the south of Block 2 on that occasion either?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And that the first time that he mentions it in any
4 statement is when he is interviewed by the Treasury
5 Solicitor just a few days before he gives evidence to
6 Lord Widgery's inquiry?
7 A. I have no recollection of that.
8 Q. That is another coincidence, as far as you are
9 concerned?
10 A. I have no recollection of that.
11 Q. I want to suggest to you on behalf of the Doherty family
12 that you murdered Mr Doherty and that as you sit there,
13 you have got away with murder and that you have no
14 intention of alleviating the suffering that they have
15 endured over all these years by even attempting to
16 explain to them your role and what went on?
17 A. That is not correct.
18 Q. Do you have anything to say to that?
19 A. I am just saying I fired at a person who had a pistol
20 and as I mention in my statement.
21 Q. Do you have anything to say to them?
22 A. I am very, very sorry for what happened on that day, but
23 I am here to help the Inquiry and to assist and tell the
24 truth as much as I can.
25 Q. What are you sorry about?
1 A. The circumstances that happened that day, there was
2 obviously innocent people killed, there was also gunmen
3 and bombers killed. So for their grief, for their
4 personal grief, I cannot do anything about that.
5 Q. I have no further questions.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke -- indeed, I am probably addressing
7 everybody -- are we able, from any other sources, like
8 the evidence some of the Widgery team gave us to find
9 a date or an approximate date when Soldier F's statement
10 was taken?
11 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, could I help on that?
12 LORD SAVILLE: If you can help, Mr Mansfield, yes please.
13 MR MANSFIELD: Because I have looked up the evidence of
14 Colonel Overbury and he said that the Widgery statement
15 would not have been started until 21st February. That
16 is the only evidence about when that may have been
17 taken. He said that on Day 243, it was 3rd October last
18 year, page 181.
19 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Heritage then was not able -- he
20 was able to date, time a number of statements --
21 MR MANSFIELD: But not this one.
22 LORD SAVILLE: -- but not this one. That is what I have in
23 mind, so we cannot do better than, what, on or after
24 21st February?
25 MR MANSFIELD: His wording was, "it was not started until
1 the 21st."
2 MS McDERMOTT: Sir, if it is of any assistance I will find
3 the exact reference over lunchtime, but when G was
4 giving his evidence to the Widgery Tribunal, Mr Reed,
5 I think it was, said to him: when you were making
6 a statement to the Treasury Solicitor just a few days
7 ago, so that appears to be the sort of time when G was
8 making --
9 LORD SAVILLE: That may help. I do not think you need
10 necessarily bring it up this afternoon, but it is
11 something I would be interested in if we could get any
12 further information on the dating of F's statement to
13 the Treasury Solicitor.
14 Who else wishes to ask questions of this witness?
15 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I do --
16 LORD SAVILLE: I would have thought you did, Lord Gifford,
17 presumably also? We will stop now, it is 12.15, and we
18 will start again at 1 o'clock.
19 (12.15 pm)
20 (The Short Adjournment)
21 (1.00 pm)
22 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD
23 MR MANSFIELD: Soldier F, I represent three families and the
24 first I want to mention to you is the Nash family and
25 their father, who appeared at the time to all observers
1 as an elderly man, went across to the barricade to try
2 and assist his son, Willie Nash, who had already been
3 shot dead by a paratrooper. He then got shot in the arm
4 himself and I suppose you cannot help about any of that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I represent a second family, Gillespie. He is still
7 alive to tell the tale, Danny Gillespie, he was in
8 Glenfada Park, his head shaved by a bullet, as you heard
9 yesterday; and I suppose you cannot help about that
10 either?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. I also represent the family of a man called
13 Barney McGuigan, shot dead at the end of Block 1 of the
14 Rossville Flats. So you appreciate what I am going to
15 do, I am going to focus on that one because, I suggest,
16 that is certainly one that you can help about; do you
17 follow?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If it is possible I would like on the screen a passage
20 of your evidence from yesterday, unless you remember it
21 in regard to this; do you happen to remember what you
22 said about the victim called Barney McGuigan, whose
23 photograph you were shown yesterday?
24 A. No, if you could put it on the screen.
25 Q. You do not remember what you said yesterday?
1 A. Word for word, no.
2 Q. Do you remember any of it?
3 A. Vaguely.
4 Q. What did you say yesterday, do you think?
5 A. I am not sure.
6 Q. You are not sure?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It is page 119, what Mr Clarke, who sits in front of me,
9 was doing with you was establishing that you were the
10 only soldier, as far as you were aware, in 1972, who was
11 on the corner of Glenfada Park North, firing towards the
12 south of the Rossville Flats; do you follow?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You will see at line 11:
15 "Question: Were you aware of that in 1972?
16 "Answer: No.
17 "Question: Were there other soldiers who fired from
18 the corner of Glenfada Park from which you fired?
19 "Answer: Not to my knowledge."
20 May we have on the screen -- I am not asking for it
21 to come up for the moment, let us read what you said,
22 the photograph P728.
23 "Question: ... the man who was shot at the base of
24 Block 1 of the Rossville Flats is shown in this
25 photograph, and he is the man in the foreground of the
1 photograph, Bernard McGuigan. Do you recognise that
2 scene?"
3 You said "no".
4 Then this question:
5 "Question: Did you shoot that man?
6 "Answer: I said in my statement I did, but I do not
7 remember it."
8 I am pausing there: you, up until now -- and
9 I suggest you have every reason to say that you did --
10 you thought you had admitted to shooting at this
11 particular man in a photograph I am now going to show
12 you; do you appreciate that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. P728, please. The man in the foreground is only too
15 obvious, unfortunately. That is who you were being
16 asked about and that is who you were saying to Mr Clarke
17 only yesterday that you thought you had admitted
18 shooting in your statement. Of course you do not
19 remember it, I appreciate. I am not going to rely on
20 your memory at all. That is what you thought you have
21 admitted to; all right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can we go back to the statement, you now having seen
24 that photograph, at 119 on to page 120, just a few more
25 questions and answers.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Do you mean the transcript?
2 MR MANSFIELD: The transcript, I am sorry, the transcript,
3 119, where I broke off. Then Mr Clarke points out to
4 you:
5 "Question: You did not say in your statement that
6 you shot Bernard McGuigan, you said that you shot at
7 a man with a pistol at the far end of the
8 Rossville Flats along the east side; do you follow?
9 "Answer: Yes.
10 "Question: Are you saying that you shot this man
11 [meaning Barney McGuigan]?"
12 You said:
13 "Answer: I am not sure."
14 The position is, I would like clarification from you
15 now: you did shoot Barney McGuigan; did you not?
16 A. The person I shot was the, the man with the pistol.
17 Q. No, please concentrate. Of course I appreciate,
18 Barney McGuigan was not the man with the pistol, no-one
19 suggests he was. You were being asked about the man in
20 the photograph. We have just been through the
21 transcript "I said I did in my statement" and you were
22 saying you were not sure yesterday, in other words, you
23 might have shot Barney McGuigan; is that the truth?
24 A. No, it was not. I was under the impression the
25 photograph I was shown was the man I had shot with the
1 pistol.
2 Q. That is not quite how it was put to you. I do not want
3 to go back over it too many times. The question was
4 a very clear one, having established you were the only
5 one to fire from Glenfada Park North corner towards the
6 south of those blocks, you just went straight to the
7 photograph; do you follow; no-one said "This is the man
8 with the pistol"; do you follow?
9 A. I do, yes.
10 Q. Is it that the truth, just for a mere glimpse, popped
11 out yesterday: that in fact when you were shown that
12 photograph that has just been shown to you, you realised
13 that was one of the people that you shot?
14 A. No, I was under the impression that was the person
15 I shot at that had the pistol.
16 Q. How were you under that impression?
17 A. I presumed it was.
18 Q. I am so sorry?
19 A. I presumed it was.
20 Q. Why did you presume it was?
21 A. Because I was shown the picture and I presumed it was --
22 Q. I am so sorry to press you about this, but you
23 realise -- it has already been said many times --
24 I mention, the McGuigan family are here, and they are
25 very interested obviously in your answers; do you follow
1 that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Why did you presume in their presence yesterday that you
4 might have shot him effectively; why did you presume he
5 was the man with the pistol? Or is that the way you
6 operated on the day?
7 A. I did not operate on the day any way. I was under the
8 impression that photograph I was shown was the person
9 who had the pistol; that was the impression I was under.
10 Q. All right. I will ask it one more time only: from where
11 did you get that impression?
12 A. That is what, the impression I got was what I had formed
13 in my mind, was that was the person who I had shot with
14 the pistol.
15 Q. I am so sorry, I said I would not ask it again, I think
16 you have not understood the question: where did you get
17 the impression that he, the man in the photograph, was
18 the man with the pistol?
19 A. I assume when it was explained to me where the people
20 were with the arrows, et cetera.
21 Q. The man with the pistol was at the far end near a wall,
22 according to you. This man is at the end of Block 1.
23 There is no confusion there, you see, is there? Do you
24 follow?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. No confusion, is there?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What I want to do -- I am afraid it will take a few
4 minutes to do it -- I want to carefully take you through
5 why you are the person who shot him, not because of
6 anything you began to remember yesterday, but because
7 you were seen doing it. Did you know that?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 Q. You have never been told that other people saw you do
10 it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Does that concern you?
13 A. The thing is -- as far as I am concerned, in the
14 statement I made on that day, I shot a person with
15 a pistol and that is it.
16 Q. You did not make a statement on that day saying --
17 A. All right, on the few days afterwards or whatever.
18 Q. A few days afterwards, yes, quite a long time ...
19 A. Whenever it was mentioned.
20 Q. Yes, whenever it was. Well, we will have to come to
21 that, I am afraid. I am going to do it carefully, so
22 there can be no misunderstanding. Do you appreciate
23 I will not be asking you to remember anything much,
24 because you do not?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. -- except scenes, possible places. Before I do can
2 I establish this: you realise, perhaps now, that so far
3 as we can tell you are the only soldier who has admitted
4 firing from the corner of Glenfada Park North?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. All right. Could we have on the screen, please, first
7 of all photograph 429. This is not a photograph taken
8 on the day, but it is just to get your bearings again
9 because your memory is so bad.
10 This is Glenfada Park North and you will see the
11 corner where there is a lamppost and the entry goes out
12 on to Rossville Street with Block 1 in the distance; all
13 right, is that fair enough?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could we have another photograph, please, 431. Again,
16 this time there are people there, the same corner, a bit
17 closer, the same lamppost. Again you can see Block 1 in
18 the distance and Block 2 beyond that, all right, you can
19 see the general layout if you look at the photograph.
20 Never mind the people for the moment, just getting the
21 feel of it, and finally, 433.
22 This is looking back into the mouth of
23 Glenfada Park North, taken on the day with the lamppost
24 there on the right-hand side; do you see?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It is that corner, near that lamppost where you were in
2 a kneeling position; is that right?
3 A. No, I do not think so.
4 Q. You tell us where you think you were, then?
5 A. According to my statement, I was over on this side
6 (indicating).
7 Q. Just point on the screen where you say you were?
8 A. Just there (indicating).
9 Q. So you put yourself on the other side or mouth of the
10 entry to Glenfada Park; do you?
11 A. According to the, um, documents I was shown yesterday
12 that indicate where I was actually positioned.
13 Q. Was anybody else in a kneeling position in the mouth to
14 Glenfada Park, so far as you know. That is not exactly
15 the corner of Glenfada Park?
16 A. I do not recollect.
17 Q. You do not recollect. No-one else has admitted being in
18 a kneeling position there; do you follow?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I want you to pause for a minute to see whether in fact
21 you are attempting to change where you were because it
22 has all been marked up at some point?
23 A. I am not, it is just perhaps the photograph is
24 misleading me. If you could put the sketch up of the
25 area again, then, I can indicate where I was.
1 Q. Certainly. Could we have Q7, please. You have been
2 shown this once today -- I am going to come back to it
3 later on -- I am concentrating on the trajectory, the
4 shot across the south of the Rossville Flats, and
5 Mr Elias who sits to my left asked you questions about
6 this earlier on, and you see where you have been
7 positioned, on the corner of Glenfada Park North, F,
8 with a shot that goes across the south of the
9 Rossville Flats?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. So it is not where you have just indicated on the
12 photograph, is it?
13 A. No, I thought it was, there.
14 Q. Where did you think it was?
15 A. Where the -- oops. There (indicating).
16 Q. I see. It may be that the photographs, or that last
17 photograph misled you. Could we go back to that last
18 photograph again, 433, because it was taken on the day.
19 The lamppost at the corner of Glenfada Park North where
20 you have indicated or where it is indicated on the plan
21 is near that lamppost; do you see?
22 A. Okay, yes.
23 Q. Right. So that is where you were, in a kneeling
24 position.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. According to you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In that position you were seen by a number of soldiers;
4 did you realise that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Up on the walls, that is beyond the Rossville Flats,
7 there were observation points; did you know that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And those observation points were manned, not by
10 paratroopers, but in the main by members of the Light
11 Air Defence Regiment. You did not know that, obviously?
12 A. I did not.
13 Q. I am not going to go through them all, there are
14 a number of them, but one in particular gives a graphic
15 description of what I suggest is you firing because you
16 are the only one on that corner in a kneeling position,
17 so it has to be you; do you follow?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. This is an officer; he is known as 227, in the Light Air
20 Defence Regiment. Before I tell you what he says, you
21 better as it were be shown the view that he says he has
22 of the corner and so on. Could we have 2204.033. This
23 is roughly the view, nothing can replicate it precisely,
24 that he had from the walls, where you can see the end of
25 Block 1. You can see Block 2 and you can see the corner
1 of Glenfada Park that we have just been talking about,
2 with the lamppost. Can you see it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That is roughly the view: 2204.034 is a photograph
5 closer; this time there is an armoured personnel carrier
6 which is there, which I appreciate was not there when
7 you were there. In the distance is that same lamppost
8 with two people standing by it; all right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In the foreground is the same body that you have been
11 shown before, of Barney McGuigan. Again, he has
12 identified these photographs. Finally, 2204.035. This
13 is a photograph and I would like -- I am sorry to put
14 figures to you -- you to bear in mind this figure is
15 also known as EP25.17, and I have to come back to that,
16 but this photograph he, 227, also identified. That is
17 the general scenario.
18 I take it, therefore, that you had never been shown
19 what he said about these incidents at the time.
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. He said it many times and he repeated it here last week.
22 He is an officer. He was in charge of the observation
23 post. Could we have 2189, please, paragraph 8. I am
24 going to read it to you because it may be you have not
25 seen it before:
1 "I then heard two or three rapid pistol shots from
2 the area of the Rossville Flats. The kneeling soldier
3 [that is, I suggest, you because he has already
4 described that] fired two deliberate shots towards my
5 right and downwards [he is up on the walls] aimed I
6 believe in the direction of the near end of Block 1. As
7 he did this I saw a man falling. He was a few paces out
8 from the end of Block 1 where a small group of people
9 were gathered. I have seen EP25/17 [that is the
10 photograph I have just shown you, all right] and EP25/18
11 [that is another one in the same series] and identify
12 the foreground figure as the man I saw fall. I should
13 add that the Pig appearing in the photographs was not
14 there when the Paratrooper fired. I saw nothing in the
15 hands of the man who fell."
16 That is a very clear description; is it not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. By someone, of officer rank, whose job it was to observe
19 that day and nothing else much; do you follow?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. And he is not alone. This is not just civilians, but
22 other soldiers who saw the kneeling paratrooper fire in
23 this way. So bear that in mind. He gave evidence at
24 Widgery, just so there is no doubt at all, can we have
25 one passage, 2196, please. This is what he told
1 Lord Widgery at letter A onwards, please:
2 "Question: When he fired [he is talking about you
3 again] how many shots did he fire?
4 "Answer: Two shots, sir.
5 "Question: When he fired those two shots, did you
6 see any man who may have been his target?
7 "Answer: Yes, sir, I did.
8 "Question: Where was that man?
9 "Answer: By the bottom end of Block 1.
10 "Question: Was that near the telephone kiosk?
11 "Answer: Yes.
12 "Question: What did you see?
13 "Answer: I saw a man fall, sir.
14 "Question: Did a small group of people gather?
15 "Answer: They stood away there as soon as he was
16 hit.
17 "Question: Would you look at EP25."
18 Then I will not trouble you to the rest because he
19 goes on to the same photographs again and he identifies
20 the man in the photograph, in the foreground,
21 Barney McGuigan, as being shot by the kneeling soldier,
22 whose name he obviously did not know, but it was you. I
23 am not for the moment going to trouble you with other
24 soldiers who saw a very similar scene, I want to switch,
25 if I may, to the civilians, for this purpose a series of
1 photographs, please.
2 Could we have on the screen 813, please. Photograph
3 813, it is given a different number, but it is the same
4 photograph you have already seen before, only now what
5 we have in this sequence are photographs taken in
6 sequence by this one photographer. 813 is EP25.17 with
7 Mr McGuigan there in the foreground, which he
8 identified, and you will see behind there is a group of
9 civilians by a telephone kiosk and the corner where the
10 lamppost was and you were just off the picture, of
11 course, in the mouth of Glenfada Park; do you follow?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could we have 814, a very similar picture, again the
14 civilians; you see more of them this time. 815 is the
15 other photograph shown during the Widgery hearings to
16 this soldier, and in his statement, it was EP25.18.
17 Again, he identified the man he saw you shooting as
18 Barney McGuigan. You will see again the same people in
19 the background.
20 816, please, the same people in the background.
21 817, a shot taken along the wall of Block 1, the gable
22 end, towards the telephone kiosk. This Tribunal has
23 heard from witnesses who were there on the receiving
24 end; do you follow?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. 818, I suggest you can see there in the faces of these
2 unarmed civilians the terror being inflicted, I suggest,
3 by you; you can see it; can you not?
4 A. I see the picture, yes.
5 Q. You can see the terror, can you not?
6 A. I can see the picture.
7 Q. Come on, I am only asking for a very obvious comment,
8 the woman on the right-hand side there. Fear, terror,
9 upset, anguish; it is all there; is it not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You could say that in the first place and we would save
12 a lot of time. 819, please, the same sort of scene,
13 I do not go further. They are all in sequence.
14 One of those -- I am only going to deal with one --
15 but there are several who have given evidence from the
16 gable end. One of them, her name is Geraldine McBride,
17 only she was not known by that name then, she was not
18 married, Geraldine Richmond, provided a statement to the
19 Inquiry of what she saw because she knew
20 Barney McGuigan. Could we have AM45.5, please. She is
21 one of the ones in the photograph, I will not trouble
22 you with which one, just two paragraphs, 25 and 26.
23 I presume you have never seen this before either?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. I am going to read it with you, if I will, except for
1 the second paragraph, which I am going to ask you to
2 read to yourself:
3 Paragraph 25:
4 "Barney McGuigan, one of the men huddled at the wall
5 with me was a community man and was generally looked up
6 to. After a short time (although I do not know how
7 long) Mr McGuigan said that he could not stand the sound
8 of the man calling any longer and that if he went out
9 waving a white hanky, they would not shoot at him. We
10 tried to dissuade him from going out. We told him they
11 would shoot him. However, he was brave and he stepped
12 away from us holding the white hanky in his hand.
13 Although I cannot be certain I think he held it in his
14 left-hand. He walked out slowly sideways in an arc
15 towards where we thought the sound was coming from. He
16 stepped out about 10 to 12 feet away from us. All the
17 time he was walking I could see the left-hand side of
18 his face. We were calling to him all the time to come
19 back. He kept looking back towards us. I could see
20 bullets going past us and Mr McGuigan from all
21 directions although I did not hear automatic fire. The
22 bullets sounded the same as those I had heard when I had
23 been running down Rossville Street earlier."
24 I do not wish to read the next paragraph out in
25 public, it is there for you to see; would you read that
1 to yourself, please. (Pause).
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You will accept, I think, that the injury suffered by
4 this man who had no more than a handkerchief in his
5 hand, was truly horrific; was it not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I want, in this context, for you to see two photographs,
8 and there is a reason for showing them to you, but I do
9 not ask that they are put on the public screen, I want
10 you to see them, however. Could we have P180. That is
11 the entry wound at the back of the head towards the left
12 ear; do you see?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Shot, I suggest, by you when his head was facing, at
15 least at an angle away from you; you follow?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could we have the next photograph, 181, and that is the
18 result of what you did. I am going to ask you because,
19 as you fully recognise and have been informed many
20 times, it is virtually the last occasion this family can
21 expect from you, at least a recognition of what you have
22 done; are you prepared to make that recognition?
23 A. As I have said in my previous statements, the person
24 I shot from that corner had a pistol in his hand; that
25 was it.
1 Q. If you have noticed, I have not relied on a memory that
2 does not exist; you do not have a memory, do you; do
3 you?
4 A. If you say so.
5 Q. No, you have said so.
6 A. At that particular time I have no recollection of it,
7 that is correct.
8 Q. If you have no recollection, there is no way that you
9 can stand here today and suggest you did not shoot this
10 man, Mr McGuigan, is there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Would you, for the benefit of his wife, who is here, and
13 his six children, finally accept and recognise -- we
14 will come to whether you meant to do it in a moment, but
15 that is what you did; are you happy to or are you
16 prepared to at least accept that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I want to take you through what must have happened.
19 When you came to make your very first statement where
20 you do not mention this at all, I am going to suggest
21 clearly, but there are some reasons I want to develop,
22 where you had left it out. You left it out, I suggest,
23 not because you had forgotten, but because you
24 recognised that what you had done in killing the man
25 with no pistol, but only a handkerchief really could not
1 be justified; that is why it was left out, all right,
2 was it not?
3 A. Not in my opinion, no.
4 Q. Not in your opinion. I want to just demonstrate to you
5 why I suggest you did not forget it.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Just wait one moment, Mr Mansfield.
7 (People crying, leaving gallery)
8 LORD SAVILLE: Continue.
9 MR MANSFIELD: Perhaps you would bear with me as I narrate
10 it to you: if I am wrong about any facts, it is just a
11 bit quicker to do it this way; the statement or
12 statements you made on the 31st were finished by the
13 afternoon of 31st, do you follow?
14 In the evening of the 31st there was a pathology
15 report made, so the Army knew by the evening of 31st
16 that Barney McGuigan, at 8.45 pm, had been shot by
17 a high velocity bullet through the back of the head,
18 they knew that on the evening.
19 In the ensuing days, they also knew from 227, that
20 a paratrooper, kneeling at the corner of Glenfada Park,
21 had been shooting to the south of Block 1 of the
22 Rossville Flats; do you follow, they knew that from 227?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Again I am not going to take time, but in addition to
25 227, in the ensuing days, a number of other soldiers
1 also gave varying descriptions: they were not all
2 identical, but they were certainly similar, indicating
3 a paratrooper firing to the south of Block 1. They
4 were, just for the record, besides 227: a sergeant in
5 the same regiment, situated in Magazine Street on
6 2nd February, 040; a gunner in the 22nd Light Air
7 Defence Regiment, 134; and another gunner called 025.
8 They all made statements 2nd, 3rd and 4th February. So
9 the Army knew: here was somebody dead by a high velocity
10 bullet from behind, almost certainly from
11 Glenfada Park North because that was the evidence that
12 they were getting in.
13 Of course you did not know of that; did you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What I suggest was happening is: that the net was
16 closing in effectively on you, because you were the only
17 one -- I do not know whether you realised this -- of the
18 people we can identify going into Glenfada Park North,
19 that is the platoon sergeant from whom we do not have
20 a statement; I do not know whether you knew that, 1694;
21 we do not have a statement from him, so I have no idea
22 what he would say or could have said. We have 119, the
23 platoon commander. He made a statement. One of the
24 only two soldiers he identified in Glenfada Park North
25 was you.
1 E, H, and G did not put themselves at the gable end
2 of the Glenfada Park North where arrests were taking
3 place. The only soldier who put himself in that
4 position was you, all right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you put that in your first statement. So what they
7 knew is: the only soldier we have in a position to have
8 done this is you. So what I suggest must have happened
9 is that you were approached -- I cannot suggest how it
10 was done -- but the inference is that you must have been
11 approached before the 19th when you first came up with
12 the pistol man and the shots at the south, all right,
13 that is the first time, 19th February, you must have
14 been approached. I know you do not have a memory and it
15 is the first time I have asked you to really think back;
16 can you recall whether you were approached before
17 19th February, that is the day on which you make
18 a statement and for the first time describe the pistol
19 man, all right, are you approached before the 19th?
20 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
21 Q. Not to your knowledge. On 16th February, that is three
22 days before you make that statement, two of the soldiers
23 I have mentioned to you: that is 040 and 134, were
24 re-approached by Colonel Overbury, the very person who
25 takes your statement on the 19th, and the concern was to
1 find out from these observing soldiers whether they
2 could be a little more precise about what they saw,
3 obviously you do. You did not know that either; did
4 you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Then there comes a stage -- and you have been shown it
7 today twice -- on 18th February, the day before you make
8 your statement, a trajectory map. Can we have it back
9 on the screen, Q7, please. This is the map where you
10 were shown by Mr Elias who sits to my left again,
11 earlier on today, that at the top of this map, there is
12 a date, it has "revised, 18th February," it is in small
13 print, I do not ask for it to be enlarged. It has 1971,
14 but it is an obvious mistake, as has been pointed out.
15 This is the map on which your position is marked at
16 the corner of Glenfada Park North and the shots to the
17 Rossville Flats are marked; do you follow?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Kindly explain, if you can, how the Army were able to
20 mark up a trajectory map with your position and shots
21 before you had said anything?
22 A. I have got no explanation for that.
23 Q. You do see the problem; do you not?
24 A. Yes, like I say, I repeat, I do not know the explanation
25 for this.
1 Q. There is one, I suggest, obvious explanation: that
2 before you saw Colonel Overbury on the 19th, somebody
3 had spoken to you. So you knew when you went in on the
4 19th the job you had to do. That was, putting it
5 simply: you had to redistribute the 13 shots that you
6 claimed you had fired in order to incorporate two to the
7 south of the Rossville block; that is the simple point,
8 is it not? That is what you had to do?
9 A. No, I did not have to do that.
10 Q. That is what in fact you did, you reorganised the shots.
11 It has been gone through so I really do not want to go
12 through it again. I hoped you got that point.
13 Thirteen shots, redistributed to allow for two shots
14 to the south?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right, do you follow that point?
17 A. Yes, yes, yes.
18 Q. All I am putting to you is: that was the job you had to
19 do to begin telling the truth, only begin, on the 19th,
20 which you had omitted up to then, but you had been
21 caught out because of the process I have just been
22 through: the Army had worked out that it had to have
23 been you and you had better come up with an explanation;
24 am I making myself clear?
25 A. Yes, you are.
1 Q. I suggest, if we need more indication of that -- I just
2 want to go back, hopefully for the last time in this
3 context, to the statement you made on the 19th. It is
4 page 135, please. The chair before lunch was asking
5 carefully when statements were made. As far as we can
6 ascertain the one that you made for Widgery was made
7 after this. So this is the first one in which you talk
8 about the pistol man, but I am not going to go through
9 that account, it is the first paragraph I want you to
10 look at.
11 "I have now read my previous statements and looked
12 at maps and photographs of the area."
13 According to Colonel Overbury you did that on the
14 19th, so it is unlikely that the Army will have
15 anticipated this unless you had said something before;
16 do you follow?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. " ... and realise that I have mistaken [see what you
19 have written] the sequence of events."
20 Well, that is just not true, is it?
21 A. What I put in that statement is what I put in.
22 Q. I am sorry, it is a matter of logic, I do not want to
23 take up too much time: it is not a sequence that you
24 have mistaken because, as has been pointed out, you have
25 added things you have never mentioned before and
1 subtracted things you have mentioned before. So in fact
2 it is not a sequence, it is an amendment, an alteration
3 and a different version; do you follow?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Why did you say you had mistaken the sequence, or did
6 someone suggest that as a way of getting round the
7 problem?
8 A. Not to my knowledge.
9 Q. How did it come about that you merely said that you had
10 mistaken the sequence?
11 A. I have got no explanation for that.
12 Q. You were more recently making a statement for this
13 Inquiry. You were asked about this particular
14 statement; do you remember being asked about this?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In relation to that, could we have just one paragraph,
17 page 167.008, paragraph 47.
18 "On 19th February I gave a statement to Lieutenant
19 Colonel Overbury, a copy of which is attached and
20 numbered 6. I refer to this statement. Despite the
21 fact that it was unusual for a lance corporal to give
22 a statement to a lieutenant colonel, I do not recall
23 giving this statement. The statement re-orders the
24 sequence ..."
25 That is nonsense, is it not, it does not re-order
1 any sequence, does it; does it?
2 A. That is what is put at the time.
3 Q. You put it in your statement, dated 2nd March 2000, you
4 are perpetrating the same excuse and it is just not
5 true, is it, it is not a re-ordering of the sequence, is
6 it?
7 A. No, if you put it in that context, no.
8 Q. Are you suggesting that someone else put this in your
9 statement?
10 A. I have got no recollection of that.
11 Q. I appreciate the question about recollection. However,
12 just going on, it then says in clear terms:
13 " ... but does not raise any new issues."
14 Your statement of the 19th, again complete nonsense,
15 is it not; is it not?
16 A. I can only put what I put at the time, you know --
17 Q. I am sorry, you were asked a few years ago now, not so
18 many, the year 2000, all right, to comment on your
19 statement of the 19th and all you do is regurgitate,
20 repeat the original line that it was just re-ordering,
21 I have dealt with that and then you go on to say it does
22 not raise any new issues. Well, either you are not
23 bothering or you do not care or you do not understand?
24 A. I am trying to be as helpful as I can.
25 Q. Do you now understand that it does raise new issues;
1 does it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Once again even in the year 2000, you were not prepared
4 to face them; were you, but you are today?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I say on behalf of the family they are grateful that you
7 have done that, but you do recognise that if you shoot
8 an unarmed man in the back, that is murder; is it not?
9 A. As far as I was concerned, as I say in my statement, the
10 man had a pistol.
11 Q. But not this man, you see, no-one suggested this man had
12 a pistol. If you shoot a man who is unarmed only with
13 a handkerchief in the back of the head, it is murder; is
14 it not?
15 A. I said I fired on a person who had a pistol.
16 Q. I dare say you say that, but if you end up as you have
17 agreed you must have done, shooting this man, unless you
18 want to say, of course, it was a mistake and he got in
19 the way of something; are you saying that?
20 A. I am just saying what I have put in the statement.
21 Q. All right. There is another matter quite separate from
22 this I want to ask you about. You do not have a memory,
23 and I have tried not to rely on anything that you may or
24 may not remember, but I have to ask you one thing: do
25 you have any recollection of ever, as it were, sitting
1 in the back of a Pig with Major Loden and a torch and
2 a map in which he got you to work out on the day what
3 you had fired at?
4 A. No.
5 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
6 LORD GIFFORD: I represent the family of James Wray, who was
7 one of the two young men murdered in Glenfada Park by
8 soldiers. Part of his body appears in photograph P439
9 which I would like you to look at again. James Wray is
10 the body of which only the legs are visible. He is the
11 furthest towards the alley which leads into Abbey Park;
12 do you understand?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I suggest to you -- I shall suggest it briefly but
15 firmly so you know what I am saying: that you do
16 remember how those bodies came to be lying there?
17 A. That is not correct.
18 Q. I suggest that you know today that they came to be lying
19 there because you and G and H, in a joint attack,
20 murdered three young men, unarmed and fleeing across the
21 south side of the square, murdering two, attempting, but
22 not succeeding, in murdering the third?
23 A. That is not correct.
24 Q. James Wray was shot twice in the back. I would like you
25 to see photograph P125.
1 LORD SAVILLE: We have taken this off the public screens,
2 Lord Gifford.
3 LORD GIFFORD: We have no objection.
4 LORD SAVILLE: We have taken this off the public screens.
5 LORD GIFFORD: I am in your hands, sir. The two wounds on
6 the right side of the back are entry wounds; do you
7 understand?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The two wounds to the left are exit wounds so that both
10 bullets entered the right side of the back and,
11 according to the forensic experts, that could have been
12 either as Jim Wray was running -- bending forward or
13 when he was on the ground, the probability as to the --
14 that bullet being that he was on the ground when he
15 received it; do you understand me?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does anything in your account of what you did explain
18 how that young man received two bullets to his back?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Does anything in what you have ever said that G did
21 account for that young man having two bullets in the
22 back?
23 A. No.
24 Q. There is, however, something which I want you to look at
25 on page B129. This is the RMP statement in which you
1 talk about the actions of G in Glenfada Park; you
2 understand?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. After, in the bottom of the page, you deal with G and
5 yourself, each hitting a man. You say, this:
6 "The third man ran off but I believe he was engaged
7 by another soldier. I did not see this."
8 If you were saying, on 31st January, in the early
9 hours, that a third man about whom there is no
10 suggestion that he was armed, ran off but was engaged by
11 another soldier but you did not see it, you must have
12 heard that from other soldiers?
13 A. No, that is not correct.
14 Q. How could you believe that the third man was engaged by
15 another soldier if you did not see it?
16 A. What I have put in the statement this time is what
17 I have put in.
18 Q. But tell us: you must have been receiving information
19 which you believed to be true, but did not see it
20 yourself; that is what you are saying, is it not?
21 A. I am saying that I did not see what was happening to
22 the, to the other people.
23 Q. But someone had told you that he was engaged by another
24 soldier; that must be right, must it not?
25 A. He is saying the third man ran off, but I believe, well
1 nobody has told me.
2 Q. What, you believe it by hunch, instinct, how?
3 A. I cannot recollect that, but I did not see it.
4 Q. The only other soldier who accepts that he fired into
5 the southwest corner of Glenfada Park is Soldier H. Was
6 it Soldier H to whom you were referring?
7 A. I do not recollect that.
8 Q. Do you remember Soldier H?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember him being part of your group on
11 30th January?
12 A. No.
13 Q. He has given a statement and is due to give evidence, in
14 which he talks about you and G and E and himself being
15 a brick; is that an expression that is familiar to you?
16 A. That is an expression I have heard, yes.
17 Q. What do you take it to mean?
18 A. I imagine it is a unit of men or a section of men.
19 Q. Acting together in two pairs; two leading, two following
20 and covering each other?
21 A. It all depends, it could be that way, it could be acting
22 as a pair or four or whatever.
23 Q. A brick is a four, is it not?
24 A. I am not sure.
25 Q. You were in the Parachute Regiment.
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Have you heard that expression?
3 A. I have heard that expression.
4 Q. And you have been part of bricks before?
5 A. But we never used that brick as common as other units
6 did.
7 Q. Is the truth that you knew, either from what you had
8 been told or from what you saw, that Soldier H had
9 engaged, that is to say, shot a man lying on the ground?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Something deplorable, even by your standards?
12 A. No, I did not hear this.
13 Q. You, F, were a soldier who, it seems, on a number of
14 occasions fired from a kneeling position. Was it your
15 habit to go into a kneeling position if you wished to
16 fire at a target?
17 A. I think it was one of the positions that we used.
18 Q. You certainly used it on that day. You have already
19 been referred by Mr Mansfield to the position in which
20 you were when you were firing at the south of Block 2.
21 You said yourself you fired in a kneeling position; did
22 you not?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. When you described your firing in Glenfada Park, you
25 also said that you went into a kneeling position; is
1 that right?
2 A. That is correct, yes.
3 Q. There is one other occasion I would like to refer you to
4 when you fired when the evidence does not come from you.
5 Could we have page B1565.014.4.
6 This, as you have already been informed, is
7 a typing-up of an account given by Soldier 027. You see
8 that he says, when he is describing the scene at the
9 Kells Walk wall, he says:
10 " ... approximately 100 yards short of the crowd,
11 Lance Corporal F went into the kneeling position and
12 fired at the centre of the crowd from behind a low wall
13 some two feet high which ran around the garden."
14 He is likely to be right, is he not, that when you
15 fired towards the crowd at the barricade, you fired from
16 a kneeling position?
17 A. It is possible, yes.
18 Q. I want you to look at an account of the firing in
19 Glenfada Park of a kneeling soldier and I am going to
20 suggest that it is you. Can we look at AD124.4. Can we
21 highlight paragraphs 15 to 18. This is part of the
22 statement of Joseph Donnelly, a witness who had been in
23 the British Navy and saw things first of all from the
24 gable end and then in Glenfada Park. He was one of
25 those who picked up Michael Kelly, the man that you had
1 shot; you understand?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You saw photographs yesterday of Michael Kelly's body
4 being carried through Glenfada Park; did you not?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. He is one of those who was carrying him. In
7 paragraph 17 he says, this:
8 "As we made our way west across Glenfada Park North,
9 three paratroopers entered Glenfada Park North from the
10 northeast entrance and I have marked their location with
11 the letter D [that is in the northeast corner]. The
12 crowd carrying Michael Kelly almost dropped him in panic
13 at the sight of the soldiers and he slipped down in
14 between their arms. I took him in my arms and carried
15 him on my own. He did not seem heavy."
16 Had you pursued the people who were carrying the
17 body of the man that you had shot?
18 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
19 Q. "Michael Kelly was still alive and my sole concern was
20 to get him to safety. As I got hold of him, I noticed
21 that one of the soldiers was taking up a firing
22 position. He was kneeling on the ground with his rifle
23 at his shoulder and was aiming towards us. The other
24 two soldiers had their rifles at waist height. All
25 three soldiers fired shots at the crowd.
1 "The third soldier who knelt down, I was scared of
2 him."
3 Was your first shot into the group that was carrying
4 the body into the corner?
5 A. No.
6 Q. A man from a kneeling position?
7 A. Not that I am aware of, no.
8 Q. Is one of the reasons why you get into a kneeling
9 position, so that you can take more accurate aim?
10 A. That is one of the reasons, yes.
11 Q. I am going to ask you to look at the account of a couple
12 of the many witnesses who saw those three bodies fall.
13 Could we have on the screen H21.48. This is a part of
14 the statement of a witness who you have already been
15 told about, Terence O'Keefe, then a priest and
16 a lecturer. Can we look at paragraph 18, please.
17 I want to go from about halfway down. He was at the
18 gable end. You understand what I mean by the gable end,
19 the south end of Glenfada Park North?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He talks about some of the lads wanting to run, one was
22 restrained. He continues:
23 "However, the other three made a run for it. They
24 had only taken a few steps into the Glenfada Park North
25 courtyard when a further and recognisably separate burst
1 of gunfire rang out. I assumed that this gunfire came
2 from some soldiers who had veered off to the right when
3 the Saracens first entered the area and had entered the
4 Glenfada Park North courtyard from the north. The three
5 boys fell to the ground in a row. I think that the
6 first and third boys fell on the pavement and that the
7 middle boy fell slumped at an angle across the pavement,
8 partly on the pavement and partly on the courtyard. It
9 was shocking to see them fall in that way."
10 That was how those bodies came to be on the
11 pavement, on the south side of Glenfada Park; was it
12 not?
13 A. Not to my recollection.
14 Q. You do not know, of course, do you?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. You also said to Mr Mansfield, if you had been part of
17 a group who had fired at fleeing, unarmed young men, you
18 would have lied about it subsequently; would you not?
19 A. I would not.
20 Q. You do not know because you cannot remember?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. If it were true that you could not remember, then one
23 reason why you cannot remember may be that what you did
24 was so inexcusable and wicked that you have blanked it
25 out of your memory?
1 A. That is not correct.
2 Q. You do not know that, do you, F; you do not know that,
3 do you?
4 A. That is not correct.
5 Q. How do you know whether or not you were one of the three
6 who shot unarmed civilians, because you do not remember?
7 A. I can only refer to my statements.
8 Q. Which may be true and which may be a lie; is that not
9 right?
10 A. I can just refer to my statements.
11 Q. Which may be true and may be a lie; you do not know
12 which, do you?
13 A. That is not for me to comment on.
14 Q. I think it is. Because if you had been that shooter,
15 firing in that way you would have to have lied about it
16 to save your skin; would you not?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. May I have AM41.5. This is a statement of a young
19 student, Eamon McAteer, 17 at the time. He is saying,
20 just before -- the page before -- that young men were
21 frightened and running to get away. I will just read
22 paragraph 28, please:
23 "I heard three shots, bang, bang, bang and two just
24 dropped, one after the other. I do not know what
25 happened to the third one. In the movies people seem to
1 go down dramatically, but these men just dropped to the
2 ground. It was very frightening. It was like a grouse
3 or turkey shoot; the men were running at speed but still
4 got shot."
5 As an experienced soldier, as you were already in
6 1972, if you were shooting at about 50 yards range at
7 a young man running, you could hardly miss; could you?
8 A. It is possible, yes.
9 Q. Finally, just one contemporary account: AM334.6, the
10 bottom five lines, please. This is an extract from a
11 full note taken by a journalist in February 1972 from
12 a man called John McLaughlin, a building contractor. He
13 also was at the gable end. Fourth line from the end:
14 "They suddenly began shouting, pointing towards us
15 and saying that the soldiers were behind us. Almost
16 simultaneously, three of the group made a dash for the
17 entrance of the small flats opposite us. I now know
18 that Gerry McKinney was one of them. Just as they
19 reached the pavement on the other side, they all fell
20 down shot; it was as if they had been hit by a single
21 bullet, they all just went down and never moved. I just
22 could not believe I had seen three unarmed men shot down
23 before my eyes. No-one of them was carrying anything in
24 his hands."
25 It was a concerted effort by, I suggest, three of
1 you; was it not?
2 A. That is not correct.
3 Q. I suggest there was also, in that square, at least one
4 of the soldiers firing from the hip. Did you ever fire
5 from the hip on an operation of this kind?
6 A. Not that I am aware of, no.
7 Q. Is it something which is proper for soldiers to do?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No. It would be a breach of discipline to fire from the
10 hip towards a target; would it not?
11 A. Possibly, yes.
12 Q. And you were a disciplined soldier?
13 A. I was.
14 LORD SAVILLE: It would also, I think, be a breach of the
15 Yellow Card because you could not fire an aimed shot.
16 LORD GIFFORD: Thank you, sir.
17 Was H a disciplined soldier at that time?
18 A. At that particular time I presume he was, yes.
19 Q. You presume, you remember him, do you not?
20 A. I remember him but I do not...
21 Q. Did you consider him to be a disciplined soldier, tell
22 us?
23 A. He was a soldier I knew not all that well.
24 Q. But he was a private in a platoon of which you were an
25 NCO?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Tell us about him, was he any good?
3 A. He was average.
4 Q. He was average. May I ask you to look at the statement
5 of AM18.2, another extract from the statement of
6 Mr Joe Mahon.
7 LORD SAVILLE: Paragraph?
8 LORD GIFFORD: The very bottom of the page, paragraph 12.
9 He again is at the gable end at this point:
10 "However, almost immediately after I had heard that
11 someone had been shot [he is referring to someone at the
12 barricade] I heard someone else in the crowd shout out
13 'here come the Paras'. I then saw a group of four or
14 five Paras coming into Glenfada Park North from the
15 northeastern entrance. A soldier in a distinctive
16 jacket fired a number of shots from the hip. I would
17 describe the way he fired the shots as in a 'fan'. They
18 were not aimed shots. He came in first and he was
19 followed by at least three or four others. However it
20 was he who fired."
21 Did Soldier H fire from the hip?
22 A. Not to my knowledge.
23 Q. Or Soldier G?
24 A. Not to my knowledge.
25 Q. You see, it is not just Mr Mahon who speaks about it.
1 Soldier 027 also, let us see what he says, 1565.014.5,
2 middle of the page. I think this has been read to you:
3 "A group of some 40 civilians were there running in
4 an effort to get away. H fired from the hip at a range
5 of 20 yards. The bullet passed through one man and into
6 another ..."
7 Are you really tell us you do not know Soldier 027?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 Q. For how long did you remain in the Anti-Tank Platoon,
10 please?
11 A. I was in there approximately four years.
12 Q. From 1972?
13 A. No, from 1969 to 1972.
14 Q. To 197...
15 A. 1972.
16 Q. What month in 1972, please?
17 A. What month did I, what?
18 Q. Did you leave the Anti-Tank Platoon?
19 A. Shortly around probably March.
20 Q. And you left 1 Para all together?
21 A. I left 1 Para, yes.
22 Q. 027 would have been a private in your platoon for about
23 a year. You know who he is now; do you not?
24 A. No, I do not.
25 Q. You know he is a man who, as was pointed out to you
1 yesterday, has made grave allegations against you
2 personally?
3 A. I, I realise that, but I do not know who he is as
4 a person.
5 Q. You do not know who he is as a person.
6 A. He may have been one of the people attached to the
7 platoon at the time.
8 Q. Can we look, please, at page 1565.114.1, the second
9 paragraph. This is information that was given before
10 this Tribunal and confirmed in evidence about an attack
11 made on Soldier 027 and the man who was his landlord in
12 about 1998, January, by people who beat up his landlord
13 and dragged him into a car and said:
14 "That is your one chance, give it your best shot
15 because afterwards we are going to kill you." They
16 mentioned Bloody Sunday, blood money, the SAS, that
17 friends of theirs had been killed and people who dealt
18 with the media.
19 Were you party to threats and attacks being made on
20 a man who had dared to speak out against you and your
21 mates?
22 A. No, I was not.
23 Q. There seemed to be a group of you who had been in the
24 Anti-Tank Platoon for a number of years by January 1972.
25 You had been in it for about four years?
1 A. Nearly four years, yes.
2 Q. G had been there the same length of time or more?
3 A. No, he had been there a lesser time than myself.
4 Q. A lesser time, but some years?
5 A. A couple of years.
6 Q. E?
7 A. E had been there a shorter time.
8 Q. But some years?
9 A. Probably a year.
10 Q. J?
11 A. J I cannot recollect -- oh, J, maybe two years, yes,
12 sir.
13 Q. J himself has told us that all of you were people who
14 had been on operations together and knew each other very
15 well; would that be right?
16 A. That is correct, yes.
17 Q. Was there anyone else in the platoon? What about the
18 sergeant, had he been with you all that time?
19 A. Um, I think he joined us, um, probably 1971, I am not
20 sure.
21 Q. And had been out on many expeditions with you?
22 A. Yes. You mean operations?
23 Q. Operations. You had a strong sense of loyalty towards
24 each other?
25 A. Yes, we relied on each other, yes.
1 Q. You relied on each other and you would, I suggest, lie
2 for each other?
3 A. No.
4 Q. A soldier who speaks out about another soldier's
5 wrong-doing becomes very unpopular in a unit like that;
6 does he not?
7 A. It is possible, yes.
8 Q. I repeat, you would certainly cover up for each other;
9 would you not?
10 A. No, I would not say that.
11 Q. Pausing on the sergeant, can I ask you about a piece of
12 evidence which has been given at AM 332.3, paragraph 15.
13 This is a statement made by one Gerry McLaughlin, then
14 a teenager of 16 years and he also was at the gable end.
15 He said:
16 "Before I made a move a soldier appeared in the gap
17 that I had just come through myself, on the northeast
18 side of Glenfada Park North. The position is marked D
19 on the map. [That again is the northeast corner]. As
20 he appeared he looked over his shoulder in the direction
21 of Rossville Street to the east and yelled, 'Here the
22 bastards are, sarge'."
23 Do you remember the sergeant being with you as you
24 went into Glenfada Park?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I am suggesting it is probably you who called out "Here
2 the bastards are, sarge"?
3 A. Not to my recollection.
4 Q. Let us see the description:
5 "He was small, real small in height, but he was
6 built like a bull dog. He was wearing a round hat with
7 no visor. He had a chubby, baby face, but it was
8 distorted by his expression. His teeth were gritted and
9 he looked like someone who had lost it. His attitude
10 and tone of voice went with the expression on his face.
11 He was carrying a Sterling sub-machine-gun ..."
12 Were any of your platoon carrying Sterling
13 sub-machine-guns?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Let us assume that may be wrong. You were a short man;
16 were you not?
17 A. I still am.
18 Q. Shorter than G?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Shorter than E?
21 A. Probably the same height.
22 Q. And considerably shorter than H?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We can see the heights of you, F (sic) and E on the
25 arrest photographs. I shall look at one of your arrest
1 photographs, ARR50.1.
2 Were you stockily built?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I suggest that that description is a description which
5 fits you: baby face, but distorted by your expression;
6 could that be you?
7 A. No, that is --
8 Q. Was there any other member of your group --
9 A. That is a picture of me, yes --
10 Q. No, the picture painted by Mr McLaughlin "real small in
11 height, but built like a bull dog"?
12 A. There was other small people as well in the company
13 besides myself.
14 Q. But not in the little group that went into
15 Glenfada Park?
16 A. Apart from E.
17 Q. Can we put that photograph on one side and put ARR27.1
18 on the other. He is a taller man; is he not, certainly
19 not a baby face?
20 A. Yes, sir, he is.
21 Q. You were one of the first, you accept that, do you not,
22 first or second to go into Glenfada Park?
23 A. I was one of the group that went in, yes.
24 Q. One other question about the personnel in that group.
25 Your name -- it is in the public domain and your counsel
1 has accepted it -- is Dave; is it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can we look, please, at AM18.15, the top of the page.
4 This is part of a near contemporary interview with
5 Mr Mahon. He says:
6 "The next thing I recall clearly was seeing a single
7 soldier on the opposite side of the court from the
8 others, looking towards the passageway [that is the
9 alley leading into Abbey Park, you understand]."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "And at the same time shouting to the other soldiers
12 'I have got another one, then, Dave'."
13 The word Dave has been redacted, but that is what
14 was in the notes of the interview.
15 Would you have been called "Dave" by G?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you have been called Dave by all the soldiers or
18 only by your close friends?
19 A. By all the soldiers.
20 Q. We know one other David which is David Longstaff; was he
21 a Dave?
22 A. He was.
23 Q. He was. Big D he told us, was that what he was called,
24 Big D?
25 A. He was called Big D.
1 Q. If you and he were in the same platoon, you would be the
2 Dave and he would be the big D?
3 A. He could also be the Dave as well.
4 Q. He could be, yes, but I suggest he is not. Did G, right
5 on the plot, right on the very scene when he had killed
6 one or two men in Abbey Park, come back to you and say
7 "I have got another one, Dave" --
8 A. Not to my knowledge.
9 MR GLASGOW: Before that question is answered, I am sorry,
10 I thought my friend was aware of this: this matter of
11 course was put to him by my learned friend, to Mr Mahon,
12 in evidence and corrected by him and he has always said
13 that he did not say this and this is not an accurate
14 account. If my learned friend needs the reference to
15 it, it is Day 167, page 48 and it was my learned friend
16 who put it and he said three times in all that what
17 Mr Mahon had in fact heard was "I have got another one
18 and then Dave," so the word "Dave" came from the soldier
19 who had gone through and come back to take his helmet
20 off. But not in relation to "I have got another one but
21 we are pulling out, Dave."
22 It really is a rather important difference and my
23 learned friend having put it to Mr Mahon and having that
24 answer, it is regrettable that it should be put in
25 a different form to this witness.
1 LORD SAVILLE: It may be regrettable if everything Mr Mahon
2 said is not put but I think we better look at what he
3 said when he came to give evidence to us. But I do not
4 think one can assume that what he said to us is
5 necessarily correct or, indeed, assume that what he said
6 at the time is necessarily correct. But I think it
7 would be proper to make sure that everybody concerned,
8 including the Tribunal, has in front of it, on this line
9 of questioning, everything that Mr Mahon has said at the
10 time or to us.
11 LORD GIFFORD: I was going to come immediately to AM18.4,
12 which was how Mr Mahon put it in his statement,
13 paragraph 23:
14 "He then shouted out 'I have got another one'. From
15 the way he was looking he was obviously shouting at
16 someone directly behind me, presumably a soldier who was
17 standing somewhere near the south gable end wall of the
18 eastern block of Glenfada Park North. I cannot say
19 whether he was referring to Jim Wray or another person
20 he could have shot when he had gone through the gap into
21 Abbey Park."
22 You were, of course, somewhere near the south gable
23 end, as we have seen?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Going over the page:
1 "I then heard another voice shout from behind me 'We
2 are pulling out Dave [the word Dave is redacted] and the
3 blond soldier who had shot Jim Wray walked off, heading
4 in the direction of the northeastern entrance to
5 Glenfada Park North."
6 That is what he said in his statement and I think
7 Mr Glasgow has said he said it in evidence.
8 Did you hear an order to pull out?
9 A. I did not.
10 Q. Before I come to my final questions, can I ask you,
11 this: you told us that you had fired three times in
12 Northern Ireland before this?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. The first time you fired, were you firing at a target?
15 A. I was.
16 Q. Did you hit it?
17 A. I was not sure.
18 Q. The second time you fired, were you firing at a target?
19 A. I cannot remember.
20 Q. The third time you fired, were you firing at a target?
21 A. I said I fired a few times, I did not say it was three
22 times.
23 Q. I think you said three.
24 A. I said a few, a few.
25 Q. You remember the first one very well?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You Remember Bloody Sunday very well too; do you not?
3 A. Only on -- according to my statements and the
4 photographs I have seen.
5 Q. The last area I want to cover is what you, in the
6 Anti-Tank Platoon, were sent there to do. You have said
7 in your statement that Support Company was a company
8 which it was something of an honour to get into; is that
9 right?
10 A. It was a company where you had more experienced soldiers
11 because then, as I said in my statement, you joined the
12 Rifle Company and then you transferred to
13 Support Company.
14 Q. The Anti-Tank Platoon was a particularly seasoned
15 platoon; was it not?
16 A. It was the same -- it would be the same as the
17 Machine-Gun Platoon or the Mortar Platoon.
18 Q. Anti-Tank Platoon had special training in Anti-Tank
19 weapons?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And training in Anti-Tank weapons and tactics requires
22 skill and involves frequent danger; does it not?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Of course, on that occasion you were acting as a rifle
25 platoon. You, we have seen, and I am going to ask you
1 if you remember it: your platoon had moved from being in
2 the rear of the convoy after you de-bussed to overtake
3 the Guinness Force who had been in lorries ahead of you.
4 You leap-frogged them and went to the front; do you
5 recall that?
6 A. I do not recall that, no.
7 Q. What was your platoon tasked to do on that occasion?
8 A. The task I think was, um, was to arrest rioters.
9 Q. It was to go into the no-go areas; was it not?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. It was also to get some kills?
12 A. No.
13 Q. No?
14 A. I do not agree, no.
15 Q. I suggest that you personally relished the prospect of
16 going into the no-go areas and getting to grips with the
17 people of the Bogside?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I suggest that you were sent in like a school of
20 piranha fish into a public swimming pool to create
21 mayhem?
22 A. I do not agree.
23 Q. And you drew blood wherever you went?
24 A. I do not agree.
25 LORD GIFFORD: Those are my questions.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Glasgow, you have no questions?
2 MR GLASGOW: No, thank you, sir.
3 Questioned by MR CLARKE
4 MR CLARKE: Just a few matters. Could we have, please, on
5 the screen that portion of Video 3 that shows the people
6 being arrested and being taken to the north of
7 Kells Walk. What is going to appear on the screen, F,
8 is some footage of people who have been arrested in
9 Glenfada Park being brought -- here they are -- to the
10 north of the Kells Walk building.
11 (Video Played)
12 Do you see that soldier in the middle of those
13 three?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recognise who that is?
16 A. He is -- he looks very familiar as myself.
17 Q. He looks as if he is you; is that what you are saying?
18 A. It is possible.
19 Q. Can we go back?
20 LORD SAVILLE: Frame by frame?
21 MR CLARKE: Yes. Can we go back to the spot when the
22 soldiers arrive. Perhaps we could take it forward frame
23 by frame.
24 (Video Played)
25 Pausing there, do you know who this soldier whom we
1 first see is?
2 A. Could we come forward more, please.
3 Q. Sorry, I cannot hear?
4 A. Could you advance it?
5 Q. Yes.
6 (Video Played)
7 A. Yes, that is Mr Longstaff.
8 Q. Yes, several people have recognised him. Keep rolling
9 it forward, please. There is a soldier accompanying
10 a woman with a visor. Do you recognise either of those
11 soldiers?
12 A. No, it is too blurred.
13 Q. Right. Then there is a soldier turning with blond hair,
14 looking backwards.
15 A. No, I do not.
16 Q. You do not recognise who that is?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Can we go back to the beginning and play it at normal
19 speed and please tell us if seeing it at normal speed,
20 you recognise who any of the soldiers, other than
21 Longstaff, are.
22 (Video played)
23 A. I think the person in the centre, it could possibly be
24 me, but I am not sure. Could we get a close-up of the
25 face?
1 Q. Can we go backwards.
2 A. Yes, it looks like me, yes.
3 Q. It looks like you?
4 A. Yes, I think so.
5 Q. Keep rolling. You think that soldier with blond hair is
6 you, is it?
7 A. With blond hair?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Not with blond hair, no.
10 Q. Look at that, do you see?
11 A. No, it was not me if it was blond hair, no.
12 Q. Could that be G, who did have blond hair?
13 A. It is possible.
14 Q. Do you recognise anybody else?
15 A. No.
16 Q. A lot of people have recognised Longstaff among these
17 soldiers so he at least from the Anti-Tank Platoon was
18 involved in escorting these people at the north end of
19 Kells Walk. Some of the evidence that has been given to
20 the Tribunal or to Lord Widgery, was that the people who
21 had been arrested in Glenfada Park had been handed over
22 to other soldiers, that is to say soldiers not in the
23 Anti-Tank Platoon when they were taken out of
24 Glenfada Park and before they reached the position that
25 we see in this shot.
1 Do you think it possible that some, at any rate, of
2 the soldiers who were in Anti-Tank Platoon escorted the
3 people all the way to the north of Kells Walk where we
4 see them in this photograph?
5 A. It is possible.
6 Q. The next matter that I wanted to deal with, is
7 this: could we have on the screen arrest bundle 46.3.
8 This was the illegible document. Thanks to Mr Choi we
9 have had that copy typed. May we have on the screen
10 arrest bundle 46.5, or what is to become 46.5. That is
11 a typescript of what you were being shown earlier, which
12 is the statement in which you gave evidence of
13 identifying a crowd throwing stones and identifying
14 Mr Norris.
15 May we have on the screen arrest bundle 46.4. This
16 is another illegible statement relating to Mr Norris.
17 We have also had typed up, may we have what will become
18 arrest bundle 46.6, a typed version of that, which is
19 a statement that must have been made following an
20 allegation, which we have seen in a statement from
21 Mr Norris himself, that some of his property had been
22 stolen whilst he was at Fort George and it is to deal
23 with that allegation that you must have made this
24 statement because what you said in it was:
25 "I did not arrest him and have no idea who did. At
1 no time did I remove or handle any of this man's
2 property."
3 Do you have a recollection of making that statement
4 or that allegation?
5 A. No, I do not.
6 Q. May we now have on the screen P194. This is a photograph
7 you have shown before. What I want to take up with you
8 is the facts that may indicate that you killed
9 William McKinney, who is the man in the gutter and
10 wounded Joe Mahon, who is the man behind him.
11 The first matter that I need to draw to your
12 attention, is this: if we can have P194 on the left-hand
13 side of the screen and P7 on the other, can we highlight
14 the Glenfada Park section of P7. We can see, can we
15 not, that the area identified on your trajectory
16 photograph as the place to which your two shots in
17 Glenfada Park were directed, is a very similar position
18 to the place where we see the two bodies on photograph
19 P194. Do you agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your evidence in your statements to the RMP and to
22 Lord Widgery, was that you fired two bullets and saw two
23 of them strike your target. You are now aware, are you
24 not, that William McKinney, the man highlighted with
25 a yellow arrow in the left-hand photograph, was struck
1 by two bullets?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. May we then come, please, to B122.
4 LORD SAVILLE: I think to be totally accurate, I think he
5 may well have been struck by two bullets.
6 MR CLARKE: Yes, may well have been struck by two bullets.
7 In your first statement to the Royal Military
8 Police, you said:
9 "The first I saw strike him in the shoulder and the
10 second strike him in the stomach."
11 William McKinney was struck in the left forearm,
12 which is obviously not the same as the shoulder and he
13 was also hit in the right back, exiting the left-hand
14 side of the chest.
15 In a subsequent statement, may we have B127, you
16 corrected the reference to him being shot in the stomach
17 to him being shot in the chest. May we have, please,
18 B137, the last paragraph, please, in which what you said
19 in your statement to Lord Widgery was:
20 "The first shot seemed to hit the man with the bomb
21 in the shoulder, the second in the chest."
22 Do you follow?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So the area in which William McKinney was shot is the
25 area in which he would have been shot by you if you had
1 aimed at him, as you said, but if contrary to what you
2 said, he was facing away from you and not towards you
3 when you fired; do you follow?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I am putting those matters to you because they may cause
6 the Tribunal to conclude that the shot that you fired in
7 Glenfada Park was fired, not at somebody who was facing
8 you with a nail bomb, but from somebody who was running
9 away from you and was shot in the back and that that
10 person was William McKinney; do you follow?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Is there any comment or observation you want to make
13 about that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Could we have back on the screen P194. As I have said
16 before, the body immediately behind him on the screen is
17 the body of Joe Mahon. May we have on the screen F7.1.
18 Joe Mahon was shot by a bullet that entered the right
19 side of his pelvis and the approximate place where it
20 entered can be gauged by reason of the fact that the
21 clothes that he wore on that day have survived and the
22 holes in the side of his shirt indicate approximately
23 where the bullet entered his body; do you follow?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. May we have on the screen, please, E10.009. The
1 evidence that the Tribunal has received about his
2 wounds, may we have the bottom half of the page, was
3 that:
4 "There was a gunshot entry wound above the right
5 side of the pelvis that had penetrated into the abdomen,
6 causing multiple perforations of the bowel and that
7 a bullet was recovered from the left anterior superior
8 iliac region," in other words in the front left side of
9 the pelvis, in the subcutaneous tissues and it was
10 described as a badly damaged 7.62 calibre rifle bullet.
11 The experts has given evidence to the Inquiry to
12 confirm that in 1999 they examined the clothing and
13 noted that there were multiple defects in the right side
14 of the shirt, consistent with the passage of a bullet
15 through clothing that had been folded and tucked into
16 the trousers. Then they added this comment:
17 "The damage to the bullet is unlikely to have been
18 caused during its passage through the clothing or the
19 body. It is most likely that this bullet has struck an
20 intermediate object prior to hitting Joseph Mahon."
21 Do you follow that, in the light of that evidence
22 and the position of the bodies of William McKinney and
23 Joseph Mahon in close proximity to each other as shown
24 in the photograph, that the Tribunal may conclude that
25 you were responsible not only for the killing of
1 William McKinney, but also for the wounding of
2 Joe Mahon?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. By a shot that passed through the body of
5 William McKinney into that of Joe Mahon?
6 A. It is possible, yes.
7 Q. Before your evidence concludes, I think I ought to
8 summarise for you the accusations and allegations that
9 have been raised and which the Tribunal will have to
10 consider and determine.
11 The allegations are, firstly, that you killed up to
12 four people, possibly even more. Firstly Michael Kelly,
13 and we know, do we not, that you killed him because of
14 the forensic evidence that a bullet from your gun was
15 found in his body?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Secondly, you have accepted, in answering questions from
18 Mr Mansfield behind me, that you shot Barry McGuigan,
19 whose photograph, in a pool of blood, you have seen; do
20 you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you also accept that you shot Patrick Doherty on
23 whose behalf you were asked questions this afternoon by
24 Ms McDermott?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. As I have put to you, there is evidence that might lead
2 to the conclusion that you shot William McKinney in
3 Glenfada Park; do you follow?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What is alleged in relation to each of those four people
6 is that you shot them without justification, that is to
7 say, that you murdered them; do you follow?
8 A. I follow, it is not correct, but I follow, yes.
9 Q. And you say that it is not correct, because?
10 A. Because, as I refer to my statements, the people I shot
11 were either petrol bombers or a person who had
12 a weapon.
13 Q. I also put to you that you may have wounded Joe Mahon,
14 the boy whose body is on the ground behind
15 William McKinney's in Glenfada Park. The suggestion is
16 also that you may have wounded the two others who were
17 wounded below the Rossville Flats; do you follow?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is there anything that you can say about that or would
20 wish to say about that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Next, I am sure you understand, in case you do not,
23 I wish to make it plain: that the suggestion is that the
24 evidence you have given to the Royal Military Police to
25 Colonel Overbury, to Lord Widgery and to this Tribunal
1 is false, both as to what you have said and as to what
2 you have not revealed; do you follow?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that, in the case of the evidence that you gave to
5 Lord Widgery and to this Tribunal, evidence being given
6 upon oath, is evidence that constitutes perjury; do you
7 follow?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. The suggestion is that the reason why that evidence is
10 false is because you have needed to conceal unlawful
11 activities on your part and on the part of your
12 colleagues; do you follow?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Is there anything more that you would wish the Tribunal
15 to take into account or to hear from you in relation to
16 those matters?
17 A. No, I have nothing further to add.
18 Q. Do you follow also that what is alleged against you is
19 that you were guilty of brutality in the treatment of
20 prisoners at Fort George; do you follow that?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And that you identified people as rioters when you in
23 fact had not seen them rioting and were in no position
24 to do so; do you follow that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is there anything more that you would like to say to the
2 Tribunal in relation to that or, indeed, any other
3 matter --
4 A. No.
5 Q. -- about which you have been asked to give evidence?
6 A. No.
7 MR CLARKE: Thank you.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you, Soldier F.
9 We will come back to this at 9.30, please, on Monday
10 morning.
11 (2.55 pm)
12 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on Monday,
13 6th October 2003)
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22
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1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 SOLDIER F, continued ......................... 1
4 Questioned by MR ELIAS ....................... 2
5 Questioned by MR TREACY ...................... 6
6 Questioned by MS McDERMOTT ................... 93
7 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD ................... 113
8 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD ................... 142
9 Questioned by MR CLARKE ...................... 167
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25