1 Tuesday, 11th March 2003
2 (9.30 a.m)
3 INQ834, sworn
4 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
5 MS McGAHEY: Sir, before this witness starts his evidence,
6 I have been asked to say that INQ1351, who was scheduled
7 to give evidence tomorrow, will not in fact be here this
8 week, but will be rescheduled for later this term.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Very well.
10 If you could look across to your left, you can see
11 who is talking to you. I say this to all the
12 witnesses: I am the Chairman; the questions will come
13 from the barristers, the people in front of me. Could
14 you keep reasonably close to that microphone and then we
15 will all be able to hear what you have to say.
16 MS McGAHEY: Do you have with you, please, a copy of the
17 statement that you made to this Inquiry and signed on
18 24th February 2000?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to the best of
21 your knowledge and belief?
22 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
23 Q. Everybody here has had a chance to read your statement,
24 so I am going to ask you about certain parts of it.
25 Before I do that, I am sure I do not need to remind
1 you that not only you but many other soldiers here have
2 been granted anonymity. In the course of your answers,
3 please do not give the names of any soldiers, unless
4 they be of Colonel Wilford or other senior officers
5 whose names are known to us.
6 You will see the first page of your statement is on
7 the screen at the moment. Could we highlight
8 paragraph 3, please. You say in paragraph 3 that at the
9 time of Bloody Sunday your job in barracks was that of
10 arms storeman?
11 A. Yes, that is right.
12 Q. Was that arms storeman for HQ Company?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Which is the same as Command Company?
15 A. They were actually two separate companies, yes.
16 Q. Were you the storeman for HQ Company?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was Command Company?
19 A. It was elements of the HQ Company that were put into
20 a tactical role on occasion. It was to separate the
21 admin people from the people that could be called to
22 take a more active military role; that was all.
23 Q. Was it part of HQ Company, a subsection of HQ Company?
24 A. I would say so, yes.
25 Q. We have heard last week from a soldier known to us as
1 Soldier 203, who says that he was the arms storeman for
2 Command Company.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know his name?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I will send you his name. Do you remember him?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Would you have expected there to be an arms storeman for
9 Command Company and a separate one for the rest of HQ
10 Company?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were the storeman for the rest of HQ Company?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could we go on, please, in your statement, to
15 paragraph 4. In that paragraph you are speaking of a
16 march that you think was due to take place a couple of
17 weeks before Bloody Sunday --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- and was postponed. You say you think the march
20 organisers had heard that the Paras were going to be
21 there.
22 A. Yes, that is what I thought at the time.
23 Q. You continue:
24 "My belief is that the marchers wanted to do
25 whatever it was they were going to do without
1 a confrontation, so they postponed the march."
2 How did you come to have that belief?
3 A. I thought that was the reason it had been cancelled or
4 called off.
5 Q. Do you remember who told you that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Was it general talk within the barracks?
8 A. It was general talk within the barracks, yes.
9 Q. Could we go over the page, please, to paragraphs 6 and
10 7. In the first paragraph there you are talking of the
11 briefing that you received for the events of
12 Bloody Sunday. We know that the officer commanding
13 Guinness Force is an officer known to us as Captain 200;
14 do you know his name?
15 A. I cannot remember.
16 Q. I will send you that. (Pause). Do you remember him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was it he who gave the briefing?
19 A. I honestly do not recall.
20 Q. You say that you think you were told you were going to
21 Londonderry to disperse an illegal march and make
22 arrests if necessary.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In paragraph 7, you say:
25 "We had our procedures for dispersing riots. We
1 used the same procedures when dispersing marches
2 because, nine times out of ten, when we went in to
3 disperse a march, it became a riot. The idea was that
4 we would identify troublemakers and make arrests. We
5 had to be flexible, however, depending on the
6 circumstances. Sometimes we would charge rioters,
7 sometimes we would move in to split them down the
8 middle, and sometimes we would use rubber bullets."
9 You do go on to say that you in fact were very
10 rarely directly involved.
11 A. That is right, yes.
12 Q. Do you remember at this briefing being told how the
13 Paras were to disperse an illegal march?
14 A. No, no. I would have classed that as tactics, and
15 tactics were not discussed.
16 Q. Your recollection is you were simply told there was an
17 illegal march --
18 A. And we were going to disperse it, yes.
19 Q. Was there any discussion about whether this march was
20 expected to be a peaceful one?
21 A. No. No, I cannot recall it.
22 Q. Do you remember there being any discussion as to what
23 would happen if the march was entirely peaceful?
24 A. If it had been entirely peaceful, I do not know what
25 would have happened.
1 Q. You were told you were going to make arrests if
2 necessary. Were you going to take part in any arrest
3 operation?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Did you know at the stage of this briefing that you were
6 to be Colonel Wilford's escort?
7 A. Yes, I knew what my party was there for, yes.
8 Q. Could we go over the page, please, to paragraph 11. You
9 are speaking there of your arrival in Londonderry.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You say that you think you de-bussed somewhere near an
12 Army barrier and then spread out?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you think that Colonel Wilford led you off Great
15 James Street into the area you have marked on your map,
16 surrounding what you believe to be called the
17 Presbyterian Church?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then, in paragraph 12, you give further details of
20 the noise you could hear when you were standing in that
21 area.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would like to ask you to look at a photograph to see
24 if you can pinpoint where you were any more precisely.
25 Could we have P199, please. The Presbyterian Church is
1 in the middle of the photograph. The north is at the
2 bottom of the photograph, in this direction. You see
3 William Street running west to east. Do you have your
4 bearings?
5 A. No, I do not, actually.
6 Q. Perhaps it would be easier if we have more of the
7 photograph. The Rossville Flats are on the top
8 left-hand side of the picture. The Presbyterian Church,
9 you would have been looking in that direction, towards
10 the marchers. The march, we know, came west to east
11 along William Street.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Barrier 12, where you later were, was very roughly in
14 the area I have pointed out now.
15 A. I think at this point I was not facing -- I think
16 I might have been facing the other way.
17 Q. What, facing north?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. The Presbyterian Church is here.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you can see there is a courtyard with some open
22 space to the east of that church.
23 A. Yes, I think that is where I was.
24 Q. Somewhere in that area?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Were you at ground level all the time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please, at C834.3,
4 paragraph 12. You say that while you were standing
5 there, somewhere in that area, you remember somebody,
6 you do not remember quite who it was, tapping you on the
7 shoulder and saying "Look". And, as you looked to where
8 he was gesturing -- you have said where that was -- you
9 saw a bullet strike the brick of a building near to the
10 top of a drainpipe, and the building was a church. Is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you have marked on your map roughly where that was;
14 It was somewhere in the middle of the building.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You have described what you saw. You continue:
17 "I did not hear the sound of the shot, so I expect
18 it either came from a distance or perhaps the noise of
19 the crowd drowned it out."
20 Thinking back now, for how long had you been
21 standing near the Presbyterian Church when you heard
22 that shot?
23 A. I saw the shot, I should say.
24 Q. Sorry, saw the shot. At the time of the shot?
25 A. Not very long. I would -- five/fifteen minutes, five to
1 fifteen minutes; I am just not sure.
2 Q. Do you recall hearing any shots at about that time?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Does that mean you do not remember or you are certain
5 that you did not hear any?
6 A. I cannot remember.
7 Q. Do you remember, while you were in the area of the
8 Presbyterian Church, being told that any soldiers had
9 fired?
10 A. No.
11 Q. At the time that you were in the area of the church, did
12 you hear any explosions?
13 A. I cannot recall hearing any, no.
14 Q. At that time, were you familiar with the sound of a nail
15 bomb exploding?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Or a petrol bomb?
18 A. Not personally, no.
19 Q. In paragraph 13, which is on the screen, you say that
20 the bullet you saw strike the wall must have been the
21 second, because the man who had tapped you on the
22 shoulder was already trying to attract your attention to
23 something?
24 A. Yes, I presumed that.
25 Q. Did you ever ask him what it was he was trying to point
1 out?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. A soldier known to us as INQ1027 recalls commenting, he
4 thinks to Colonel Wilford, on a soldier who was lying
5 flat on a nearby roof firing rubber bullets. Do you
6 remember seeing a soldier doing that?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Or that being pointed out to you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Could we go on, please, to paragraph 16, which is over
11 the page. The sentence before we get to the top of the
12 page says that during this time Colonel Wilford had been
13 with one of the radio operators, and you think it was
14 INQ1152:
15 " ... getting updates over the radio."
16 Do you remember seeing Colonel Wilford?
17 A. Yes, I do. At some point I did, yes.
18 Q. His evidence, and that of 1152 -- this is their evidence
19 on paper; they have not yet given evidence to the
20 Inquiry orally -- is that at the time of the shot they
21 were in a building near the Presbyterian Church. Could
22 that be right?
23 A. It could be. I think I saw him in that area at that
24 time, but I am not sure exactly when.
25 Q. You then say:
1 "A little while after the bullet struck the wall,
2 Lieutenant Colonel Wilford came over, got us all
3 together and we moved down a hill on foot. I believe we
4 moved east down Great James Street."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then you arrived at barrier 12?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. It was there that Colonel Wilford left you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And told you to wait?
11 A. Yes. He left me behind, along with some others.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all my questions.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
15 LORD GIFFORD: In the middle here, INQ834. I am Anthony
16 Gifford and I appear for the family of James Wray.
17 I want to ask you about that moment when
18 Colonel Wilford left you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he say where he was going?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who went with him?
23 A. A radio operator, I believe.
24 Q. You were there effectively as his bodyguard?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. To protect him?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were there other bodyguards with you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember who they were?
6 A. I am not exactly sure. I know the names of a group of
7 people that I went out with in that role, but I cannot
8 recall exactly who was with me that day.
9 Q. I will not pursue it, but there was a group of you?
10 A. Yes.
11 LORD SAVILLE: I am sorry to interrupt. If this witness
12 knows the names, we perhaps could get them sent to
13 Ms McGahey and then get the ciphers.
14 Can you, if necessary with the assistance of
15 Mr Frankson, type on that little computer to your right
16 the names of anyone you remember?
17 A. From that day? Yes. (Pause). Are surnames enough?
18 LORD SAVILLE: As much of the name as you can remember. We
19 are doing it this way because, of course, they will
20 almost certainly have anonymity. But if you do this we
21 can find out what cipher we have given them; or we hope
22 we can. (Pause).
23 LORD GIFFORD: I think it would be sensible to clarify he is
24 writing the names of the ones he thinks were in the
25 escort party.
1 LORD SAVILLE: That is what I understood, yes.
2 MS McGAHEY: The first one named is INQ1152, who is already
3 identified in the witness's statement. The names
4 provided are the names of those individuals who appear
5 in paragraph 9 of the witness's statement: INQ1488;
6 INQ1152, and INQ1027.
7 LORD GIFFORD: Normally it would be your duty to stick
8 close-by your commanding officer at all times?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He would have to specifically order you not to come with
11 him?
12 A. He did.
13 Q. And he did?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But gave no explanation as to why?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Just one other matter, 834. Could we look at C834.5,
18 paragraph 24. You say you heard afterwards that:
19 "Colonel Wilford had not wanted to pull the men out
20 that day. He had wanted to leave the men in the Bogside
21 to hold the ground we had won. However, he was
22 overruled."
23 Was that something that you heard from
24 Colonel Wilford himself?
25 A. No, it was not. That was something that was rumour
1 control within the battalion.
2 Q. That was the general story going around in the company?
3 A. It was, yes.
4 Questioned by MR BRADLY
5 MR BRADLY: I just want to ask you about the briefing you
6 received before you went off on this operation. Was it
7 a briefing given to you and those in the escort party?
8 A. I think it was. It was very brief.
9 Q. So it was very brief?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And it was provided for those soldiers who were going to
12 be in the commanding officer's escort party for the day?
13 A. I think so. I am not sure.
14 Q. That is the small group of people you have been
15 referring to?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember who it was given by?
18 A. No, I cannot remember who gave it.
19 Q. Was it given by somebody in the escort party?
20 A. I am not sure.
21 Q. You are not sure.
22 Sir, I am grateful.
23 MS McGAHEY: I have no further questions, sir.
24 LORD SAVILLE: INQ834, if you look across again, thank you
25 very much indeed for coming here to help us, thank you.
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 LORD SAVILLE: Does the order remain as it was yesterday,
3 with INQ1951?
4 MR RAWAT: Yes, sir.
5 INQ1951, sworn
6 Questioned by MR RAWAT
7 LORD SAVILLE: If you look across to your left, you can see
8 who is talking to you. I am the Chairman. I say this
9 to all the witnesses: first of all, thank you very much
10 for coming back again today; I know you were here
11 yesterday. I am very sorry indeed to have
12 inconvenienced you. I hope you can understand it is
13 quite difficult for us sometimes to know how long
14 witnesses are likely to last. Anyway, we are grateful
15 to you for coming back today.
16 The questions will come from the barristers, the
17 people in front of me. Could I ask you to remember to
18 keep pretty close to that microphone in front of you.
19 You can pull it towards you a little bit, if you like,
20 to make it more comfortable, and then we will all be
21 able to hear what you have to say.
22 MR RAWAT: INQ1951, do you have with you a copy of the
23 statement that you have made to this Inquiry?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to the best of
1 your knowledge and belief?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can I explain one point before we continue: like you,
4 most soldiers who have given evidence to this Inquiry
5 have anonymity and are known by ciphers. During the
6 course of your evidence, please do not mention any
7 soldier by name. Where appropriate, we will give you
8 the cipher to use.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Additionally, everyone here has had the chance to read
11 your statement, so today I would just like to ask you
12 questions about some parts of it. We have the first
13 page of your statement on the screen in front of us. As
14 we can see, in paragraph 1 you say that on
15 30th January 1972, you were a gunner in 11 Battery of
16 22nd Light Air Defence Regiment.
17 If we go to the next page, please, and expand from
18 paragraph 9 down, on 30th January itself you were
19 manning a barrier that we know as barrier 12, which is
20 in Little James Street, with others from your section.
21 I want to look in more detail at what you say in
22 paragraphs 9 onwards in a moment.
23 Can I first show you, please, P360. I hope you were
24 shown this photograph before coming to give your
25 evidence, or yesterday.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you able to identify yourself in this photograph at
3 all?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Could we look at P242. In this photograph were you able
6 to identify yourself?
7 A. No.
8 Q. If we could put P242 on one side of the screen, please,
9 and C1951.2 on the other side, before we look at the
10 detail of what you say, I want to establish with you
11 your movements from one end of the barrier to another.
12 If I could summarise what you say from paragraph 9, you
13 tell us first of all that you were standing on the
14 right-hand side of the barrier, the eastern end, and
15 then there was a shot which hit the wooden support of
16 the barrier at the left-hand side, the western end of
17 the barrier. Following that shot, you were all told to
18 withdraw into a factory which was on the eastern side of
19 Little James Street.
20 Then you tell us -- although it is not on the page
21 we see on the screen -- that subsequently you and
22 INQ1794 were told to open the barrier, and you had to
23 flatten yourselves up against the wall as the Army
24 vehicles went past.
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. If we look at the photograph, am I correct in
2 understanding that, by reference to paragraph 9, you
3 started off at this end --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- of the photograph?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you started off on the right-hand side of P242, as we
8 look at it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The shot was obviously at the other end, but P242 also
11 shows us -- and correct me, please, if I am wrong -- the
12 factory where you sheltered --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- and which I have marked with the red arrow. And that
15 subsequently, after returning from sheltering in that
16 factory doorway, you and 1794 were again in the area of
17 the blue arrow when the Army vehicles went through?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, I do not know whether it would assist if we were to
20 save that photograph?
21 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I think it probably would.
22 MR RAWAT: If we could save that, please, as C1951.8. The
23 blue arrow shows the starting point of INQ1951, which
24 was on the right-hand side of the photograph as we look
25 at it. The red arrow shows the factory doorway where he
1 and other members of his section sheltered following
2 a shot directed at the barrier. And, following that,
3 INQ1951 and INQ1794 returned to the area of the blue
4 arrow, and that is where they were when the Army
5 vehicles went through.
6 Having established that, can we go back to C1951.2,
7 please. If we could have from paragraph 10 down. What
8 you tell us, INQ1951, is that the first thing that
9 happened whilst at the barrier is that a shot was fired,
10 and the bullet hit the wooden support of the barrier at
11 the left-hand side, the western side of the barrier:
12 "I do not remember how long we had been standing at
13 the barrier when this happened. I did not hear the shot
14 or see the bullet hit the barrier, but I heard the
15 soldier on the western end of the barrier, closest to
16 where the shot had hit, say 'They've splintered the
17 barrier, they're shooting at us'. Because the shot had
18 come from the south and had been aimed towards us, we
19 all assumed it was enemy fire, i.e. IRA fire. The shot
20 must have been fired from somebody at street level and
21 not from inside the Rossville Flats because the bullet
22 hit the barrier horizontally and towards the top of it,
23 which would have been about four feet from the ground".
24 When this incident occurred, you were at the other
25 end of the barrier; were you not?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. You say that you did not hear the shot or see the bullet
3 hit the barrier. Just to be clear: did you actually
4 hear the strike of the bullet on the barrier?
5 A. I do not remember.
6 Q. I wonder if you could pull the microphone a little
7 closer?
8 A. Sorry. I do not remember.
9 Q. Is your only recollection that of a fellow soldier
10 saying "They've splintered the barrier, they're shooting
11 at us"?
12 A. No. Actually when we was -- when we retired from the
13 barrier, with the permission of the officer, we went to
14 look at the actual barrier where the splinter was.
15 LORD SAVILLE: You actually saw where it had hit?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR RAWAT: Was this at the end of the day?
18 A. No, no, no. This was at the time we was -- at the time
19 that we were told to retire.
20 Q. To shelter in the factory?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which is what you tell us in paragraph 12. So on the
23 way into that factory doorway, you looked at the wooden
24 barrier?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you looked at it yourself, did you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what damage could you see?
4 A. What I have described: a splinter; what I did describe
5 as a splinter shot.
6 Q. Could we have P365 on the screen, please. This shows
7 the barrier on 30th January itself, and at a point where
8 there was some rioting occurring in front of the
9 barrier. Using this photograph and, if we give you
10 control, are you able to mark the approximate position
11 where you saw the splinter on the barrier?
12 A. No.
13 Q. But it is somewhere toward the left-hand side of P365 as
14 we look at it?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR TOOHEY: 1951, was the order to withdraw to the factory
17 building an order given to all those at the barrier, or
18 only to some?
19 A. All those at the barrier, except for -- all those with
20 shields at the barrier. So the actual people who were
21 slung with rubber bullets and gas grenades was moved to
22 the shelter of the factory.
23 MR TOOHEY: Are you saying, then, that some remained?
24 A. Some remained.
25 MR TOOHEY: Those with shields remained at the barrier?
1 A. No. The ones with shield -- shields went to the
2 factory.
3 MR TOOHEY: I beg your pardon. Then who were those who
4 remained at the barrier? I do not mean by name, but was
5 there some reason why some remained and some went back?
6 A. I have no idea. I assume the ones that stayed were the
7 ones in the photograph.
8 MR TOOHEY: You do not know why they rather than others?
9 A. I do not know why.
10 MR RAWAT: It is your clear recollection that an order was
11 actually given for you to withdraw?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The photographs we have looked at show the doorway to
14 the building you have identified as a factory which was
15 actually closed, or the shutters were down. Do you
16 recall the shutters being up and you and other members
17 of your section being able to actually get into the
18 factory?
19 A. I have thought about this, and in the photographs itself
20 it looks like the shutters are down, and that we was --
21 if you look at the photograph, you can actually see
22 a crowd of people, or a crowd of soldiers standing at
23 that -- in that area.
24 LORD SAVILLE: That is not this photograph, is it; or is it
25 another one?
1 A. It is another one.
2 LORD SAVILLE: One we showed you a little time ago?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR RAWAT: If we try P242 first. Is this the photograph you
5 were thinking of?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We can just see that there is a group of soldiers around
8 the lamppost just in front of the building you have
9 identified as the factory, and which is named as
10 "Brewsters". Is that the cluster of soldiers you were
11 thinking of?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall ever being able to get inside the factory?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. So at some point, to the best of your recollection, the
16 shutters must have been open?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Or a doorway must have been opened into the factory?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You have told us it was as you were ordered to retreat
21 back towards that factory that you inspected the wooden
22 barrier and saw the splinter. Are you clear in your own
23 recollection that this all happened before any marchers
24 or rioters had arrived at the barrier?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are you able to help us at all with how soon before any
2 marchers or rioters arrived this incident occurred?
3 A. Well, the reason we were moved back was because the
4 marchers had not arrived, and I cannot say how long
5 before we were moved out as the marchers arrived.
6 Q. To the best of your recollection, was this the only
7 incident of gunfire that you heard or were aware of
8 before the Paras went through that barrier?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could we have P235, please, on the screen. This,
11 INQ1951, is an aerial view of the area of
12 William Street, Rossville Street and Little James
13 Street.
14 LORD SAVILLE: This is not the march on the day, though, is
15 it?
16 MR RAWAT: No, it is not, sir.
17 LORD SAVILLE: So it was taken on another day.
18 MR RAWAT: The point I have marked with the blue arrow is
19 the approximate location of barrier 12, which you manned
20 on the day itself. Are you sufficiently orientated with
21 this photograph?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We know that a number of vehicles, manned by members of
24 the Parachute Regiment, did go through barrier 12 and
25 then moved down Rossville Street. We also know -- and
1 I do not think it is disputed -- that before that
2 happened, before the Paras drove through the barrier
3 where you were positioned, there were five shots fired
4 by two paratroopers who were positioned in this building
5 here, which would have been just to your west. They
6 fired those shots in approximately this direction.
7 We also know that a member of the Official IRA fired
8 a shot approximately in this direction.
9 Aside from the incident that you have described to
10 us, do you have any recollection of hearing any gunfire
11 before Para vehicles went through that barrier?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Today, do you have any recollection of hearing gunfire
14 after the Paras had gone through the barrier which you
15 were manning?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Could we remove the arrows, please. Aside from the
18 barrier you were manning, which I have marked again with
19 the yellow arrow, we know there was a barrier in
20 Sackville Street, which was manned by, again, members of
21 11 Battery.
22 One of those members is known as Soldier Z. I am
23 going to send you the name of Soldier Z. Please do not
24 say the name, but if you look to the screen on your
25 right, is that name familiar to you at all?
1 A. (Pause). Yes.
2 Q. Soldier Z was deployed at barrier 13, which we have
3 marked with the red arrow. He made a statement to the
4 RMP in 1972. In his RMP statement he said that at 4.55
5 on 30th January he came under fire from a gunman
6 positioned in a derelict factory in Abbey Street -- the
7 approximate position of that gunman would be just about
8 here -- and that the gunman fired a shot at him which
9 hit the wall above Soldier Z's head, and that Soldier Z
10 then fired one round of return fire.
11 That incident would have occurred after the Paras
12 had gone through your barrier, but it would have
13 occurred while barriers 12 and 13 were still manned by
14 members of your battery. Do you have any recollection
15 of a shot being fired in the direction of barrier 13?
16 A. Can I just say that, if you opened the barriers and the
17 Paras went through, okay, it was only one person on that
18 barrier then, and that was me, okay, and I was withdrawn
19 after they had gone through, minutes after they had gone
20 through probably. So I would not -- I would not have
21 heard this anyway.
22 LORD SAVILLE: I follow that. Do you remember you were
23 withdrawn to -- where?
24 A. The end --
25 LORD SAVILLE: The end of that street.
1 A. James Street, yes.
2 MR RAWAT: You say that you would not have heard that shot,
3 but do you recall learning afterwards that Soldier Z had
4 had to fire a shot?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you, those are my questions.
7 Questioned by MR ARTHUR HARVEY
8 MR HARVEY: My name is Arthur Harvey and I appear on behalf
9 of a number of the families of the deceased and injured.
10 If you go to your statement at 1,951.2, again at
11 paragraph 10, what you say there was:
12 "The first thing that happened whilst at the barrier
13 was that a shot was fired."
14 You neither saw nor heard the shot, but simply heard
15 the report of a shot from a colleague at the opposite
16 side of the barrier?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also link the hearing of this shot with a report
19 over the radio by a senior officer, as a result of which
20 you and a number of your colleagues were ordered to
21 withdraw; is that right?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. Those things are clearly linked in your mind?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, could it be that what you have done is, with the
1 passage of 30 years, actually put two separate
2 incidents -- something that did not happen on
3 Bloody Sunday -- together with an incident that may have
4 occurred at a different time during your service in
5 Derry?
6 A. At that time, the -- the use of barriers for a riot was
7 not normal. We used to use Pigs for normal riots. This
8 was a sort of a one-off, if you like, to be at a barrier
9 to prevent the riots from moving forward.
10 Q. The difficulty that perhaps I have, and perhaps you
11 could help resolve it for me, is that there is no log of
12 any report of any such shot, either on the battalion net
13 or the brigade net.
14 A. Right. This is my evidence; this is --
15 Q. I appreciate that entirely, and I appreciate that you
16 are doing your best. I mean, it is 30 years ago, and
17 I appreciate that. The thing is, you link the shot with
18 the report by the officer, with brigade or some senior
19 person within brigade telling the officer that you have
20 to withdraw; is that right?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. Again, if we go back to the photograph 242 --
23 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, can I make sure
24 I understand: what did you understand at the time where
25 the order to withdraw had come from?
1 A. From the battery, from the HQ battery.
2 LORD SAVILLE: In other words, over the radio to an officer
3 who was at the barrier?
4 A. Yes.
5 LORD SAVILLE: That was your understanding of it?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR HARVEY: On this particular photograph it is apparent
8 that the shutters of the factory of Brewsters are down.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Therefore you could not have gone immediately inside
11 that factory on that day without someone really breaking
12 into those shutters?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Is that right?
15 A. That is right. By the looks of it, we are gathered in
16 the vicinity of the ...
17 Q. Do you recognise any of the persons in this photograph,
18 242? Without giving their names, but can you identify
19 any of them?
20 A. I recognise all of them.
21 Q. All of them?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Do you recognise the officer in the centre of the
24 photograph wearing the beret?
25 A. The officer, I recognise the officer.
1 Q. If we go, perhaps, to photograph 360.1, the officer here
2 is INQ1326. He was the major in charge, and he remained
3 at this barrier. He has already given evidence and he
4 has not referred to any incident of a shooting before
5 the crowd arrived which necessitated a report either
6 back to his own battalion headquarters or to brigade, or
7 receiving any instruction to withdraw.
8 A. I can only say what I experienced on the day.
9 Q. Again, you said when you were giving evidence that not
10 all of the soldiers were instructed to withdraw.
11 A. The -- the ones who had shields, the ones who were at
12 the front of the barrier -- the front-line after the
13 barrier, was the ones who was told to withdraw.
14 Q. Again, if you look back at photograph 360, it was
15 obviously taken before the marchers had arrived.
16 Photograph 365 is taken after the marchers have passed
17 and a riot has begun. Is it not the case in fact that
18 the soldiers would not arm themselves with the shields
19 until it was necessary to do so?
20 A. We were put in position as the marchers came through, as
21 the march started or arrived. We were put in position
22 then, with the shields.
23 Q. In fact -- is this not the case~-- you have become
24 confused by photograph 242, which shows a group of
25 persons who have, if not withdrawn, not been deployed
1 forward of the area of Brewsters garage, which can be
2 seen in this photograph? Could we remove that arrow?
3 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure I follow your question,
4 Mr Harvey.
5 MR HARVEY: Perhaps if we go back to your photograph 242.
6 What you believe is that there was a group who were
7 ordered to withdraw into the vicinity or actually into
8 the building of Brewsters garage. You can see a group
9 in fact congregated around outside, is that right?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. You believe those are the soldiers who were ordered to
12 withdraw after the shot, and those without shields were
13 ordered to remain; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In other words, is that an interpretation of events that
16 you have taken from your observations of this photograph
17 rather than any general recollection that you yourself
18 have?
19 A. When I first gave my evidence, I did not see any
20 photographs at all.
21 Q. And I appreciate that it is very difficult to do so
22 without photographs.
23 A. Right. So I gave my evidence without seeing the
24 photographs. Then, at the end of my evidence, I was
25 shown the photographs.
1 Q. So your belief now is, interpreting the photographs with
2 your previous evidence, that after the shot was fired,
3 those with shields were ordered to withdraw, and that is
4 why we have this photograph of those without shields
5 lined up behind the barrier; is that right?
6 A. That is right.
7 Q. Also you have a recollection that after the paratroopers
8 went through, you were the sole soldier left at this
9 barrier?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where did the others go?
12 A. They must have gone to the back of the street.
13 Q. That is back towards Great James Street?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As soon as the paratroopers went through, where did you
16 go?
17 A. Well, at the time I was trapped at the back of the
18 barrier.
19 Q. But after they went through and you were no longer
20 trapped, what did you do?
21 A. I pushed the barrier forward and went to the back.
22 Q. You see, again there is a radio log entry on 22nd Light
23 Air Defence Regiment log showing that this barrier was
24 not closed, in the sense of being removed, until some
25 time after 1631. That is, again, approximately some 20
1 or so minutes after the paratroopers went through.
2 But your recollection today is that, as soon as the
3 paratroopers went through, this barrier was abandoned;
4 is that right?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. Again what I want to suggest to you is, 1951, that
7 perhaps, because of the difficulties and because of the
8 fact you did not make a statement at the time, you have
9 confused perhaps a number of incidents which occurred
10 during the course of your service, rather than an
11 isolated and specific memory of what occurred on
12 Bloody Sunday. Could that be possible?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You now say that in fact you inspected the barrier.
15 These are roughly hewn wooden barriers; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did the bullet pass through the wood?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was it lodged in the wood?
20 A. No. Although, it -- further inspection I might have
21 seen it had been lodged in the wood, but as far as I was
22 concerned all I saw was the splinters.
23 Q. These barriers can be splintered from damage just during
24 the transportation or during the course of manufacture.
25 How were you able to distinguish it as a bullet mark?
1 A. Because I was directed by the person or persons who were
2 there at the time.
3 Q. Did the officer inspect it?
4 A. I do not know.
5 Q. Had a bullet struck that barrier which necessitated the
6 withdrawal not of all of the men, but simply some of
7 them, and an officer was present -- and you can see him
8 just very close to the vicinity of where this
9 happened -- would you not have expected him to inspect
10 it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. After this particular incident occurred, with the shot
13 having occurred, what reaction did it have among the
14 persons present at the barrier? Did they take any
15 defensive action such as, for example, calling up
16 vehicles?
17 A. No. No, the action we took was to move -- was the
18 officer retired us to the back.
19 Q. But not all of you, only some of you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There is a vehicle that you can quite clearly see just
22 behind the soldiers on the right hand pavement as one
23 looks at the photograph. Nothing was done by way of
24 trying to bring that forward?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And yet a number of officers without shields and without
2 any obvious protection, according to you, were left on
3 the barrier. Do you have any idea why the officer only
4 ordered a partial withdrawal of the troops?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 LORD SAVILLE: Do we have any other questions for this
8 witness?
9 MR RAWAT: No, sir, thank you.
10 LORD SAVILLE: 1951, the Chairman again. Thank you very
11 much indeed for coming here, and again our apologies for
12 bringing you back for a second day.
13 We will rise now for the next witness, who I think
14 has either only just arrived or is not yet here.
15 (10.25 a.m)
16 (A short break)
17 (10.55 a.m)
18 INQ579, sworn
19 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
20 LORD SAVILLE: Could you look across to your left and you
21 can see who is talking to you. I am the Chairman.
22 I say this to all the witnesses: the questions will come
23 from the barristers, they are the people in front of me.
24 May I ask you to keep reasonably close to that
25 microphone in front of you -- you can pull it towards
1 you if you like -- and then we will all be able to hear
2 what you have to say.
3 MR ROXBURGH: May we have on the screen, please, page
4 C579.1.
5 INQ579, do you have with you a copy of the statement
6 that you made to this Inquiry on 7th April 2000, of
7 which the first page is on the screen in front of you?
8 A. I do, sir.
9 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to the best of
10 your knowledge and belief?
11 A. To the best of my knowledge, they are.
12 Q. You tell us in your statement that in January 1972 you
13 were a corporal and section commander in C Company of
14 the 1st Battalion of the Parachute Regiment. In
15 paragraph 3 on the screen you say that the battalion was
16 based in Palace Barracks:
17 "We were the emergency reserve battalion for the
18 province, and mainly operated in Belfast."
19 Strictly speaking, is it not the case that 1 Para
20 was the reserve battalion for 39 Brigade in Belfast,
21 rather than the province reserve?
22 A. I believe that may be correct.
23 Q. In paragraph 4 you refer to the briefing that you
24 received before the operation on 30th January 1972, of
25 which you say you have only a vague memory. Do you
1 remember whether, in the course of any briefing that you
2 received, you were warned about any particular dangers
3 that you might have to face that day?
4 A. To the best of my knowledge, I cannot remember any
5 specific details.
6 Q. May we move on to the next page of your statement and to
7 paragraph 11, please. This is a part of your statement
8 in which you describe the situation just before you went
9 through the barrier on 30th January. You say that the
10 platoon sergeant came to the back of the vehicle where
11 you were and told you that you had to go in. Then you
12 say:
13 "To the best of my recollection, we formed up
14 a snatch squad. I would have ordered one of the section
15 to leave his SLR weapon in the Pig and to carry a baton
16 to enable us to carry out a snatch squad role in
17 accordance with normal procedure."
18 Approximately how many men would have been in your
19 section?
20 A. I think the number at that particular time was eight,
21 including myself.
22 Q. Are you sure that only one member of the section would
23 have been required to leave his rifle behind and carry
24 a baton?
25 A. No, indeed, if I had a formed a snatch squad, there
1 would have been a couple of individuals armed with
2 batons and they would have left their -- my armament,
3 the rifle, behind, secure in the Pig.
4 Q. Under normal procedure, what was the role of the men
5 with the batons, and what was the role of the other
6 members of the snatch squad?
7 A. The role of the particular individuals that had the
8 batons would have been told either by myself -- more
9 than likely myself, or perhaps the platoon sergeant --
10 to actually particularly take someone that was seen to
11 be a trouble-maker or a problem to the situation, to
12 actually go for them along with a couple of
13 close-protection soldiers, who would -- who would have
14 been nominated at the same time as part of the snatch
15 squad.
16 Q. Do you mean by that that either you or the platoon
17 sergeant would have pointed out a particular individual
18 and said "Go and get him"?
19 A. In that particular case it would probably have been
20 myself as being the closest person on the ground with
21 the authority to send someone to snatch someone.
22 Q. Please do not mention the name of any soldier, but do
23 you happen to recall which members of your section were
24 carrying batons that day?
25 A. I cannot, no.
1 Q. May we go on to paragraphs 12 and 13, where you describe
2 going through the barrier and branching off down
3 a street on the left, which you think is likely to have
4 been Chamberlain Street, although you are not quite sure
5 about that. Then, in paragraph 13, you say:
6 "As we walked south down Chamberlain Street, my
7 section stood side by side as we advanced, and we
8 covered the whole width of the street. I remember that
9 I was in the middle."
10 Were you walking down Chamberlain Street, or were
11 you running?
12 A. To the best of my knowledge, I had split the section up
13 into two halves. One-half was on one side of the
14 street, the other half on the other side of the street,
15 and we were progressing down the street -- not running,
16 but certainly not strolling. We were attentive and were
17 aware of what was actually going on. So we were -- we
18 would have been covering each other from door to door
19 and progressing steadily -- not rapidly, but steadily --
20 down the street towards the crowd at the time.
21 Q. You say that:
22 "There was a crowd of about 30 civilians who had
23 retreated to the southern end of Chamberlain Street,
24 close to the flats."
25 Did you see that crowd retreating down the street,
1 or were they already at the far end of the street by the
2 time you arrived in Chamberlain Street?
3 A. To the best of my recollection they were actually
4 already in the street, and they were actually
5 consolidated at the end, in a crowd that were actually
6 just stood at the end of the street.
7 Q. Apart from that crowd of about 30 people, do you
8 remember whether there were any other civilians in
9 Chamberlain Street?
10 A. To the best of my knowledge, no, there was no-one else,
11 apart from ourselves.
12 Q. May we look, please, at page C 579.11. This is the plan
13 that is attached to your statement. Unfortunately it
14 has been copied rather badly; the paper has been folded
15 over. So we will look at another copy of the plan, if
16 we may, at Q9.
17 We can see Chamberlain Street, here, running down
18 towards the Rossville Flats. Perhaps it would be
19 helpful if we can enlarge that area of the plan.
20 We can also see that there were two streets, still
21 are two streets that run off Chamberlain Street on what
22 would have been your left as you came down the street,
23 namely High Street and Harvey Street.
24 Do you remember whether you saw any civilians
25 gathered in either of those two streets as you came
1 down?
2 A. To the best of my recollection, no.
3 Q. May we go back, please, to paragraph 13 of your
4 statement at C579.3. At the top of the page you say:
5 "There were no problems as we entered Chamberlain
6 Street, but I could hear gunfire to my right (west).
7 These were the first shots I remember hearing that day.
8 I could not tell from what direction the shots were
9 being fired, and I could not make out whether the shots
10 were fired from SLR weapons or from any other type of
11 weapon. As shots were not being fired in Chamberlain
12 Street itself, and the surrounding houses gave us
13 protection, I did not feel any immediate threat."
14 Do you remember whether you could hear that gunfire
15 as soon as you arrived in Chamberlain Street, or was
16 there a delay before you heard the gunfire?
17 A. To the best of my knowledge it is as per the statement.
18 I could not actually remember gunfire whilst we were
19 actually progressing towards Chamberlain Street. I know
20 that when we moved into Chamberlain Street, perhaps it
21 is because of seeing the crowd there, my senses were
22 heightened and I realised there was a lot of gunfire
23 going on.
24 Q. But once you had arrived in Chamberlain Street, did you
25 become aware of the gunfire immediately or were you in
1 Chamberlain Street for a time before you heard gunfire?
2 A. I honestly could not tell you.
3 Q. Is it possible that the gunfire that you are describing
4 here was the sound of baton guns, or was it definitely
5 live gunfire of some kind?
6 A. As you have mentioned baton rounds now, yes, baton
7 rounds. I could hear the distinct, very high report
8 from the baton guns and, now that I think about it,
9 probably I could hear those whilst we were actually
10 progressing towards Chamberlain Street. But as for high
11 velocity shots, reports, I really cannot remember where
12 I first heard those.
13 Q. You think you may have been able to hear baton rounds as
14 you were progressing towards Chamberlain Street?
15 A. (Witness nodding).
16 Q. Is that right?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Once you were in Chamberlain Street, can you remember
19 whether you heard shooting that you were able to
20 identify as either baton rounds or live gunfire?
21 A. I definitely heard high velocity shots whilst I was in
22 Chamberlain Street.
23 Q. Are you referring there just to the two shots that you
24 describe in more detail later in your statement, or did
25 you hear a quantity of live shots?
1 A. I heard a quantity of live rounds being fired. There is
2 a distinct difference between the -- the high explosion
3 from a baton gun and from the sharp retort from high
4 velocity weapons.
5 Q. Can you remember whether you heard the sound of baton
6 guns mixed in with the sound of live fire, or did you
7 just hear live fire, or can you not remember?
8 A. I cannot remember, to be honest with you.
9 Q. In paragraphs 15 and 16 you go on to deal with two
10 particular shots that you heard. You say this:
11 "We had advanced halfway down Chamberlain Street and
12 reached point A on the attached map when I heard a shot
13 ring out. I heard loud crack and thump sounds and,
14 through my training and experience, I knew that the
15 crack was the sound of a bullet passing close to me.
16 I had been shot at before and we were trained to
17 determine the direction of a shot and distance from
18 which it was fired. I thought at the time that the
19 bullet was fired from a position which was less than
20 100 yards away and, as it passed me, my immediate
21 reaction was that it was aimed at me. My distinct
22 impression is that it came from directly in front of me
23 from the Rossville Flats area. I had no indication of
24 what weapon was being used, other than that it was
25 a high velocity weapon."
1 In paragraph 16 you say that you took cover in
2 a doorway and soon after doing so you heard a second
3 shot which was also fired in your direction and which
4 you believed came from the same direction as before.
5 Could you tell what kind of weapon had fired that
6 second shot?
7 A. As far as I was concerned it was the same -- the same
8 weapon, and it was firing a second shot.
9 Q. When you say that you were trained to determine the
10 direction of a shot and the distance from which it was
11 fired, what was the nature of the training that you had
12 received that enabled you to determine those things?
13 A. From the very beginning, as a recruit, all soldiers are
14 trained to locate the enemy once the infantry soldier
15 has been fired upon. And there are certain methods used
16 to -- to help train and show recruits that. It is an
17 ongoing training. It is helped by the fact that, when
18 you are on live firing ranges, when you are putting up
19 the targets for your colleagues to aim at, you are
20 getting, obviously, the loud crack and thump reports
21 from the weapons and the bullets passing overhead. It
22 comes automatically.
23 Q. Is it fair to say that in a built-up area it can be very
24 difficult to identify accurately the direction from
25 which a single shot has been fired?
1 A. Very difficult.
2 Q. How confident are you these two shots were fired from
3 the direction of the Rossville Flats?
4 A. The first thing when a round passes you is it breaks the
5 air and it makes a crack. It is then followed by the
6 actual discharge. The way you are taught, and with the
7 training and with the experience, you begin to realise
8 where the direction has come from, from the actual --
9 the crack going over your head, or close to you, and the
10 direction of the sound of the initial discharge.
11 It is something that is -- you are -- I will not say
12 "shown"; you are actually taught that, and the
13 experience comes after a while, and you can pick it up.
14 In this particular case it was very quick and very
15 sharp and it was very definitely from the front.
16 Q. Did you notice any sign of either bullet having hit
17 anything anywhere near your position?
18 A. At that particular stage, no. It was only later, when
19 we go on further in the statement, when I entered the
20 house in Chamberlain Street, that we saw a wounded lady
21 lying on a settee being comforted by a number of people,
22 including the priest, that I thought perhaps she might
23 have been actually hit by one of those rounds.
24 Q. Did you have any particular reason to believe that it
25 was one of those rounds that had hit that lady, or was
1 it simply that you had heard two shots and then seen
2 a wounded lady and thought maybe the one fitted in with
3 the other?
4 A. It is just I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that when the
5 crowd dispersed -- as I say, at the time they had given
6 us no trouble as we were progressing up Chamberlain
7 Street -- that when the shots were fired, they
8 automatically done the same as the guys on the ground
9 did: they took cover and they dispersed. And I do not
10 know whether or not anyone was carried from the crowd
11 into the house; it was just that when I got to the
12 house, having seen all the people that had gone in
13 there, I went in to investigate, and that is when I saw
14 the lady.
15 It was only after coming out and perhaps, you know,
16 when all the excitement had died down a bit, when
17 I actually sort of realised maybe she was hit then, with
18 one of those rounds.
19 Q. Is it right that you did not notice at any stage the
20 strike of any bullet on any building?
21 A. No.
22 Q. May we look at the plan at Q9, please. This is not the
23 copy of the plan that you marked, but the position of
24 point A that you marked on the plan was just about there
25 in Chamberlain Street. Could we enlarge the area of
1 Chamberlain Street, please? My arrow is not quite in
2 the right place. Your point A is just by that house
3 there on the corner of Chamberlain Street and
4 Harvey Street. Doing the best you can, that is the
5 point where you believe you were, approximately, when
6 you heard these shots; is that right?
7 A. I was actually in the middle of the road there, and the
8 section were on either side of the street. Now if, as
9 I have been informed by people when I was making my
10 initial statement, that my platoon had actually come
11 down -- or my section had actually come down
12 Harvey Street and turned left into the street, then that
13 would be about the approximate location.
14 If we had come down High Street, it would be at
15 a building similarly on the entrance into Harvey Street.
16 Q. I do not want you to go by anything that anyone said to
17 you when you were making your statement. Do you
18 actually remember whether your platoon came down
19 High Street or Harvey Street?
20 A. As I said at the time of the initial statement, that
21 I thought, on leaving the barriers, that my particular
22 section had turned left twice. Into what street, I do
23 not know, but I have been told that, by the evidence and
24 by information that was given to me, that it was indeed
25 Chamberlain Street that we had walked along. And the
1 evidence seems to be backed up by the fact of the crowd
2 at the top of Chamberlain Street, and the injured woman
3 found with the priest and other people inside the house
4 at the top left-hand side of Chamberlain Street.
5 So I assume that that is -- that is correct.
6 LORD SAVILLE: It sounds very likely that is correct, but
7 I think the question is where you came from to get into
8 Chamberlain Street in the first place.
9 A. That is correct. I cannot actually remember. As I have
10 said, initially I thought, from leaving the -- from the
11 initial barricade where we had de-bussed, that as we had
12 moved down that particular street, whichever it was,
13 that we had turned left twice. It may have been we did
14 not turn left until we actually got to Chamberlain
15 Street, and only turned left once.
16 MR ROXBURGH: There is a substantial amount of evidence that
17 soldiers of C Company came through barrier 14 on
18 William Street, and that some of them, at any rate,
19 turned left into Chamberlain Street, just making the one
20 left turn. Is it possible that your memory is playing
21 tricks with you when you recall two left turns to get
22 into Chamberlain Street, and that in fact you came in by
23 the route I have indicated with my blue arrows?
24 A. I think it is right we only turned -- now that all the
25 evidence has been given to me, and all the information
1 that has been passed on, that it is only one left turn
2 and it was from barrier 14.
3 Q. Yes. We can see from the plan that from the junction of
4 Chamberlain Street and Harvey Street there was a small
5 alleyway that led out into the wasteground where my red
6 arrow is. Do you remember being able to look down that
7 alleyway? And, if so, do you remember whether you saw
8 anything happening on the wasteground?
9 A. No. Quite simply, no. To the best of my knowledge we
10 were progressing up Chamberlain Street, as we were
11 instructed to do, and I was concentrating on the section
12 and what was ahead of us.
13 Q. Do you think there is any possibility that the two shots
14 that you heard could have been fired from somewhere on
15 the wasteground close to the entrance to that alleyway,
16 really in the opposite direction to my red arrow, so
17 coming in that direction, past you?
18 A. Well, looking at the configuration of the streets and
19 the buildings there, no, I would say it is highly
20 unlikely. As I say, I personally thought that it came
21 from directly in front, and my immediate instinct is
22 that it was fired from the flats right ahead of us.
23 Q. Were you able to tell whether the shots that you heard
24 passed over your head, or whether they went past at
25 a lower level?
1 A. I really cannot remember now. I just remember the
2 actual crack and thump of the weapon and discharge.
3 Q. You have said that many of the people who were in the
4 crowd at the far end of Chamberlain Street went into
5 a house after these shots were fired. Did you observe
6 any immediate reaction on the part of those civilians to
7 the shots when they were fired?
8 A. Yes, they all went into the house. Everybody
9 disappeared off the street and went into the house. But
10 if they did not actually go into the house, they may
11 have gone round the back of the building. But as far as
12 we could see, everybody just made a beeline for the
13 house.
14 Q. May we go back to what you say about that in your
15 statement at C579.3, paragraphs 17 and 18. You say that
16 as you reached the house yourself you ordered your
17 section to stay in position and stay alert. You told
18 the soldier closest to the house to cover you as you
19 went in. Why did you go into the house?
20 A. Everybody had dispersed into the house. I just wanted
21 to go in and check myself; make sure that, first of all,
22 there were no problem individuals there, no-one that had
23 been causing trouble or whatever. I just went in to
24 make sure that everything was okay and above board.
25 Q. You had not seen anyone in the crowd doing anything
1 wrong; is that right?
2 A. To the best of my knowledge they were just bystanders,
3 onlookers.
4 Q. So did you have any reason to believe that there might
5 be anybody in the house who had been doing anything
6 illegal?
7 A. Well, the two shots had come from the direction of the
8 crowd, so it was beholden to me just to check, to make
9 sure that the gunman was not actually in the crowd.
10 Q. Before you went into the house, you did not know that
11 there was anyone injured inside, did you?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. In paragraph 18 you say that you went in the house and
14 opened a door on your right and found a number of
15 people, including a priest who was comforting the
16 wounded woman. Are you sure that it was a priest?
17 A. All I can say is that he was dressed as a priest,
18 a Catholic priest. He was in dark clothing and he had
19 his dog collar on.
20 Q. And you say that you went to take a closer look at the
21 woman and make sure that she was not concealing
22 a weapon?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you satisfy yourself that this middle-aged woman was
25 not concealing a weapon?
1 A. Not 100 per cent, when I think back on it now. But at
2 the time I was quite satisfied that she was indeed
3 wounded, and I was happy enough with that particular
4 situation, in the sense that she was not hiding
5 a weapon.
6 Q. You told the priest to get her outside and into an
7 ambulance, is that right?
8 A. Yes, I did, yes.
9 Q. Had an ambulance been called at that stage, do you
10 remember?
11 A. Not my me. Whether -- there must have been ambulances
12 in the area at the time. I just automatically assumed
13 that, if she was injured, that she needed to be taken to
14 hospital to be treated. And my advice to him was to try
15 and get her outside as quickly as possible so that
16 decent aid could be given to her.
17 Q. By this stage, can you remember, had any other soldiers
18 entered the house?
19 A. Before me nobody from my section had gone into the
20 house.
21 Q. Had anyone followed in behind you from your section?
22 A. Perhaps the individual that was told to cover me as
23 I went in.
24 Q. Do you happen to remember who that was? Not by name,
25 but --
1 A. I cannot.
2 Q. If we go to the next page and paragraphs 19 to 20, you
3 describe opening the kitchen door and seeing the
4 courtyard behind the kitchen full of young middle-aged
5 men. You say that they gave you no trouble, that
6 everyone was calm and not threatening; is that right?
7 A. That is correct, yes.
8 Q. Did you see any other injured person at the back of the
9 house?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Then you say:
12 "Whilst I was standing in the doorway I was told by
13 a soldier behind me that we had to pull back
14 immediately. I did not get an opportunity to search the
15 men in the courtyard; they had not offered any
16 resistance and I did not arrest any of them."
17 Do you know why you were required to pull back
18 immediately?
19 A. At that particular stage, no.
20 Q. Again, without mentioning any name, do you know who had
21 given the order that you were to pull back immediately?
22 A. No. We only assumed it was the guy that had come in to
23 give me close protection and who had been told from
24 someone else.
25 Q. You say that you did not get an opportunity to search
1 the men in the courtyard, but did you have any reason to
2 search the men?
3 A. If I had had time I would have followed through, I would
4 have called in a couple of more soldiers to give me more
5 protection and, yes, I would have searched them.
6 I would have searched to make sure that there were no
7 concealed weapons.
8 Q. In the event, you just left the house, is that right,
9 and reported to the platoon sergeant outside?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. Then you withdrew, you say, up Chamberlain Street?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Did the whole of your section withdraw together up
14 Chamberlain Street?
15 A. Well, to the best of my knowledge, yes, they did.
16 Q. What did the platoon sergeant do when you moved back up
17 Chamberlain Street?
18 A. He first of all confirmed the instructions that we were
19 to move back, and he then went back to his particular
20 position within the platoon, which was further down
21 Chamberlain Street.
22 Q. You say that when you reported to the platoon sergeant,
23 he was standing near a Pig. Do you remember whether
24 that Pig was right outside the house where you were, or
25 was it further up the street?
1 A. To the best of my recollection it was a few yards away
2 from the end of the street, a few yards down. In actual
3 fact, if I remember right, the platoon sergeant was
4 virtually outside the door of the house I had just come
5 out of.
6 Q. When you withdrew up Chamberlain Street, did the Pig
7 where the platoon sergeant was standing stay where it
8 was, or did it come back up the street, or what?
9 A. Again to the best of my knowledge, I think it just
10 reversed back down the street, down to the junction, and
11 went from whence it came.
12 Q. Do you know where the rest of your platoon was at this
13 stage?
14 A. The section, yes. They were close in the area around
15 me. But the remainder of the platoon, I was not too
16 sure, to be honest.
17 Q. May we go on to paragraphs 21 and 22. You here describe
18 being, you think, at the junction of Chamberlain Street
19 and either Harvey Street or High Street, and seeing
20 a priest walking north up the street waving a white
21 handkerchief with some people behind him carrying an
22 injured person. At the end of paragraph 21 you make the
23 observation:
24 "It occurs to me now that the priest could only have
25 been waving his white handkerchief to prevent people
1 firing from behind him, as there was no shooting from my
2 direction."
3 Would you accept that the priest would not have been
4 in a position to know whether anyone was about to open
5 fire from any direction?
6 A. You could phrase it that way. It is just that I felt at
7 the time that he was waving a white handkerchief to show
8 that he is indicating that he is coming with a wounded
9 person, and he was actually in amongst members of the
10 Parachute Regiment. If there had been no firing going
11 on, I cannot see the reason for him waving the white
12 handkerchief. Perhaps he could have been doing
13 something a bit more constructive: helping the
14 individuals carry the wounded person or asking for
15 a doctor or medic or something.
16 At that moment in time he was actually within
17 a large number of Parachute soldiers.
18 Q. In paragraph 22 you say:
19 "As the priest rounded the corner the scene was
20 caught on film, and I have since seen this news clip
21 many times. I am the corporal standing behind the
22 priest as he turns the corner with the injured party."
23 You then refer to a number of photographs. May we
24 look at one of those photographs, please, C579.10. Do
25 you appear in this photograph, can you see?
1 A. No, not to the best of my knowledge, I do not see, no.
2 Q. Without mentioning any name, do you recognise the
3 soldier carrying the rifle just to the right of the
4 lamppost?
5 A. No, no. It is too blurred. I could not, no.
6 Q. Are you able to see, in this photograph, the vehicle by
7 which your platoon sergeant had been standing?
8 A. That -- that does resemble -- well, it is a Pig,
9 obviously. It may have been the Pig that I was
10 referring to earlier.
11 Q. There does appear perhaps to be another vehicle beyond
12 it.
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Do you remember whether there was more than one Pig in
15 Chamberlain Street at the time?
16 A. No, I cannot remember.
17 Q. I am now going to ask for you to be shown a portion of
18 a video which contains the film of soldiers in
19 Chamberlain Street, and also the film of the priest with
20 the wounded person being carried behind him. I would
21 like you to tell me, please, if you recognise any of the
22 soldiers in the film. If you do, please do not mention
23 their names, but just say that you recognise someone and
24 then we will stop the film. May we have video 1,
25 please, just from the point when the soldiers enter
1 Chamberlain Street.
2 (Video Played)
3 There is a little bit of a lead into this. We can
4 see soldiers going through the barrier. Chamberlain
5 Street is on the left at the moment, and now we see some
6 soldiers going into Chamberlain Street. That is the
7 junction of Chamberlain Street and Harvey Street. We
8 are just about to see the party with the priest and the
9 wounded man approaching.
10 In that sequence, did you recognise any soldiers?
11 A. I have to be honest now, sir: I could not recognise
12 anyone specifically at all.
13 Q. Did you even see yourself in it?
14 A. I could not, no --
15 Q. Perhaps we could play it one more time, the same
16 sequence, and I will ask you to concentrate on whether
17 you see yourself anywhere there.
18 (Video Played)
19 You do not recognise either of those two?
20 A. Yes, the corporal coming into the picture there. That
21 is me on the right moving up towards the second -- or
22 the soldier in the doorway.
23 Q. Is it possible to save that image as a still? No. Can
24 we play back a bit, please. It is the sequence in the
25 video after we have seen soldiers going into Chamberlain
1 Street, and we have seen a soldier on the corner of
2 William Street and Chamberlain Street, and then a view
3 into the wasteground, and then we see a soldier on the
4 corner, the southwest corner of the junction of
5 Chamberlain Street and Eden Place, who is joined by
6 a second soldier. And the witness is indicating that he
7 was the second soldier who joined the soldier on the
8 corner.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Could we go back to a few frames before then,
10 before the two soldiers on the corner of Eden Row?
11 MR ROXBURGH: Could we go back, please.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Take the film back.
13 TECHNICIAN: We have now found the film on the digital. We
14 have just saved that still.
15 MR ROXBURGH: Can we keep going back, please.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Can you come forward frame by frame. Stop.
17 You are not one of those two we can see in that frame?
18 The reason I ask the question is: when you identify
19 yourself, you seem to be coming from that direction.
20 If we can now go forward another couple of frames,
21 just carry on going forward as slowly as you can.
22 Do you recognise yourself or anyone else in those
23 two --
24 A. I do not think that is me in the front, if that is what
25 you are implying.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Then we have one on the corner. Just watch
2 very carefully. You can see why I am asking you this,
3 because you seem to be coming up from, roughly speaking,
4 the position where those two who you did not recognise
5 were. Do you see what I am getting at?
6 A. Yes.
7 LORD SAVILLE: I think, as we look at the picture now, you
8 are the person on the right, is that right?
9 A. I believe to be, yes.
10 MR TOOHEY: 579, you say you think you are the person on the
11 right. According to your statement you were carrying
12 both an SLR and a baton gun.
13 A. I thought I had a baton gun going into the house. It
14 may have been that the soldier on the -- actually, at
15 that point of the house may have had the baton gun.
16 I am sure I took a baton gun into the house with me.
17 MR TOOHEY: But in terms of the photograph, not being able
18 to identify yourself as one or other person.
19 A. Yes, I appreciate what you are saying. It is obvious
20 there that I did not actually carry the baton gun in
21 that particular instance. But when I went actually into
22 the house I am certain I had a baton gun. And
23 initially, when I made my first statement, I spoke about
24 leaving my SLR outside with the individual. But then,
25 on thinking about it again, I thought: no, I would not
1 have done that, I would have slung it over my shoulder
2 and used the baton gun from one of the other individuals
3 that were outside. I thought it my personal duty, as
4 the section commander, to enter the house as opposed to
5 sending in one of my soldiers.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Can I ask you, looking at this picture now,
7 how sure are you that you are the person on the right?
8 A. If we go a little bit further forward, I think it shows
9 my chevrons and as I was the only NCO there, it is
10 obviously me. It looks like my stature. In that
11 particular picture there, I think facially I recognise
12 myself there and the individual is pointing things out
13 to me, and as you can see the chevrons there, as I was
14 the only NCO, it would have been me; it is my stature,
15 my build.
16 MR ROXBURGH: I think what we had on the screen a moment
17 earlier was the saved image. May we save that, please,
18 as page C579.12. The witness has identified himself as
19 the soldier on the right.
20 Having done that, may we then just play the
21 remainder of that clip at normal speed just to see
22 whether, on a second viewing, you recognise anyone else.
23 Can we pause there, please? Can we go back for three or
24 four seconds and then play forward, please. I was
25 looking to see whether there are in fact some chevrons
1 on the soldier carrying the rifle. May we go forward
2 from there, please. Stop there, please, and just back
3 a little bit so that we can see the soldier standing on
4 the corner. Do you see the soldier standing on the
5 corner?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recognise him?
8 A. Again, that could possibly be myself, but I cannot
9 remember being in that actual position there. As far as
10 I remember I was actually in the doorway on the opposite
11 corner.
12 Q. You do say in your statement that you are the corporal
13 standing behind the priest as he turns the corner with
14 the injured party, which would fit in with that being
15 you, would it not?
16 A. Yes, but in the actual news clips that I was referring
17 to, there is more of a head-on picture that shows the
18 priest and the people carrying the injured party there
19 looking towards the opposite corner, with a soldier
20 actually in the doorway. And that is the one; that is
21 what I was referring to.
22 These particular pictures were all new to me until
23 shown to me by my solicitor some months ago.
24 Q. Could we go back about 10 seconds from here and play it
25 forward one last time, please.
1 A. Stop it there. I believed, from the news clips that
2 I saw, that I was actually positioned in the doorway
3 where that soldier actually is now.
4 LORD SAVILLE: You mean on the right-hand side as we look?
5 A. On the right-hand side of the road, as opposed to the
6 left-hand side. And I believe, if I was that soldier,
7 then we must have changed position some time as events
8 transpired.
9 MR ROXBURGH: Looking at this film, are you able to
10 recognise whether you are either one of the soldiers on
11 the right or one of the soldiers on the left?
12 A. I cannot confirm for definite, no.
13 Q. Do the chevrons on the soldier standing on the corner on
14 the left help at all?
15 A. Only to the extent that I was an NCO and I wore similar
16 dress to that. It may well have been me, but I am
17 convinced that over the years every time I have seen the
18 news clip, which is slightly different to what we have
19 here, I have always been convinced I have been the
20 soldier, the NCO, that is actually in the doorway.
21 Q. Can we play forward from here, please.
22 (Video Played)
23 I think that is probably all we can get from that.
24 To move on to another matter: did you, at any stage
25 after you had left the house at the far end of
1 Chamberlain Street, see any other soldiers going into
2 that house?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Without mentioning his name, do you recall the identity
5 of the soldier who was your platoon sergeant that day?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you be kind enough to type his surname into the
8 keyboard on your right and, when you have done that,
9 press the red enter key. He is a soldier who is known
10 in this Inquiry as INQ2000. I am going to send you the
11 names of two more soldiers to see whether you remember
12 them. The first is a soldier known to us as
13 Corporal 007. Do you remember him?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Was he a member of your platoon?
16 A. I think he was actually, yes.
17 Q. Do you remember whether he was in your section?
18 A. No, he most definitely was not in my section.
19 Q. Do you remember whether he was in Chamberlain Street on
20 that day?
21 A. I would not know.
22 Q. The second soldier is a soldier known to us as Private
23 INQ12. I will send you his name. Do you remember him?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was he a member of your platoon?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was he in your section?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. Was he in Chamberlain Street that day, as far as you
5 remember?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Does it surprise you to hear that those three
8 soldiers -- namely the platoon sergeant, the corporal
9 and the Private between them -- appear to have arrested
10 no fewer than 13 people in the house in Chamberlain
11 Street where you saw the wounded woman?
12 A. Gobsmacked.
13 Q. Your evidence is that you were either the only soldier
14 who went into the house, or possibly that one soldier
15 came in behind you who had been giving you cover; is
16 that right?
17 A. Can I just go back again: the second soldier, the
18 Private, I am not convinced, as I speak now, that he was
19 in my section, and he may well have been in the NCO's
20 section, and that would be the only way that they could
21 have arrested those people, that they could have gone in
22 after I had left and withdrawn down the road and they
23 could have, under the instructions of the Platoon
24 Commander, platoon sergeant, whatever, gone in and
25 arrested those people. But as far as I am concerned
1 nobody from my section went in there.
2 Q. You are quite clear that nobody was arrested while you
3 were in the house?
4 A. Absolutely not.
5 Q. And that you had seen nobody in the house doing anything
6 wrong?
7 A. We did not have time to see whether they were doing
8 anything wrong. As soon as I went into the house, and
9 I was the first into the house, as soon as I spent
10 literally seconds checking out the woman and speaking to
11 the priest, I then went to the back door, to the
12 kitchen, and I saw, in the courtyard, the number of
13 people that were there.
14 It was at that stage then that I was shouted to from
15 the front that we had to pull back and withdraw. And
16 that was it: I came out. I did not have time to check
17 anything further.
18 Q. Did it ever come to your attention that a complaint had
19 been made to the police that soldiers, in making arrests
20 in that house, had used abusive and threatening language
21 and violent behaviour towards those whom they arrested?
22 A. No. I did not even know anybody had been arrested, so
23 I would not know about any complaint being made.
24 Q. Thank you very much, those are all my questions.
25 Questioned by MR ELIAS
1 MR ELIAS: INQ579, over to your right. My name is Elias.
2 I represent a number of former soldiers.
3 Could I ask that we look at paragraphs 10 to 12 in
4 your statement at C579.2. You say in paragraph 10, the
5 last two lines, that you were expecting to be deployed
6 on foot, and that the vehicle -- the Pig -- would
7 follow. That was standard practice. That was how
8 things operated in Belfast, was it?
9 A. Most of the time, yes.
10 Q. And on this day you are clear that you were expecting to
11 deploy on foot, are you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You have said in paragraph 11, and you have told the
14 Tribunal today, that to the best of your recollection
15 you formed up a snatch squad. Then in paragraph 12, you
16 say this, about five lines down:
17 "As we went through the barrier the crowd started to
18 break up and run in different directions. Our task was
19 to ensure that the crowd which ran down the side street
20 kept moving away from the area where the barriers were
21 erected."
22 Do you mean by that that, when you went in, as far
23 as you were concerned the task of you and your unit was
24 to disperse the crowd, in the sense of sending them
25 away, south?
1 A. Yes. The whole object was to remove them from the area
2 of the barriers, and to disperse them back down, down
3 the streets.
4 Q. It is 30 years plus now ago. I want to ask you how
5 confident you are about that recollection. Before you
6 answer, may I just put this to you: before you went in,
7 were you made aware, on this occasion, of some different
8 mode of operating than that which you would have carried
9 out in Belfast, that is to say at least an element of
10 trying to get behind the crowd and pen them in so that
11 they might be arrested?
12 A. No, no specific instructions. No, I cannot recollect at
13 all. And most of my statement, as I made quite clear to
14 the people when I was first making the statement, is
15 based on bits that I can remember positively, for
16 example, the injured woman and the priest, things that
17 stand out in my mind.
18 Other things are basically Army training, such as
19 the briefings. I know we would have had a briefing, you
20 know; it goes without saying. And then we would have
21 had a pre-briefing just before going in. It goes
22 without saying.
23 Q. I think that is understood. Part of your evidence will
24 be simply recounting what the practice was at the
25 time --
1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. -- as a matter of form. Do you have any recollection at
3 all, on this occasion in Londonderry, of being given
4 some different instruction which involved your platoon
5 or your unit encircling rioters?
6 A. Hand on my heart, I cannot specifically remember
7 anything specific.
8 Questioned by MR MACDONALD
9 MR MACDONALD: INQ579, my name is MacDonald and I represent
10 some of the families.
11 Could I take you first of all to paragraph 13 of
12 your statement, at the top of C579.3. In that paragraph
13 you say that you heard gunfire to your right, that is to
14 the west, as you entered Chamberlain Street. If you
15 look at the map, Q9 I think is the map that was being
16 used because your map was not clear. If we could
17 highlight the area of Eden Place, Pilot Row and
18 Chamberlain Street. You see where you would have been
19 walking, down Chamberlain Street. Do you see the
20 wasteground to your right as you would have been
21 walking?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In particular, do you see Eden Place?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. I am not sure if we have control of this screen, but
1 I wanted to point out to you a location. Do you see
2 that red arrow?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The tip of that red arrow points out the location of an
5 officer known to us as Lieutenant N. He was an officer
6 in Support Company. He was in the first Pig that went
7 into the wasteground. After he de-bussed he went to
8 that corner and fired three high velocity shots up that
9 street towards Harvey Street.
10 What I want to ask you is whether or not the shots
11 that you heard could have been shots fired from that
12 location.
13 LORD SAVILLE: I think, with respect, Mr MacDonald, he has
14 already been asked that question, and his answer was
15 that he thought it was unlikely.
16 MR MACDONALD: I do not think he was asked that question.
17 What he was asked was whether or not the shots that he
18 referred to in paragraphs 15 and 16 of his statement
19 were fired from that location, or could have been fired
20 from that location.
21 LORD SAVILLE: You are quite right. I am sorry, yes. I was
22 assuming we were talking about those.
23 MR MACDONALD: It is my fault for not making it clear.
24 The gunfire you heard to your right, referred to in
25 paragraph 13, is the gunfire I am asking you about. You
1 were not able to specify what type of weapon would have
2 fired those shots, but these were the first shots you
3 heard.
4 The reason I am asking you this question is that the
5 first shots that were heard by Lieutenant N himself were
6 the shots that he fired from this location. I am simply
7 wondering whether or not those could have been the shots
8 that you heard first?
9 A. They may well have been. As I said, coming down, before
10 we actually entered Chamberlain Street, I was not
11 conscious of any high velocity rounds, or indeed any
12 particular firing. It was only when I was in
13 Chamberlain Street, as I say, I saw the crowd at the end
14 of the street. And, whether it was my senses were
15 heightened or what, but I did hear a lot of gunfire and
16 a number of high velocity shots.
17 Q. You did not hear automatic fire or nail bombs?
18 A. I cannot be specific. Certainly I cannot remember
19 differentiating between the loud thump of the baton
20 rounds or nail bombs, and I could not differentiate
21 between shots being fired rapidly or automatic gunfire.
22 Q. If I could ask you about the shots that you refer to in
23 paragraphs 15 and 16, these were the two shots that you
24 thought were fired down Chamberlain Street from the
25 Rossville Flats direction.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Your Platoon Commander was Lieutenant 26, is that right?
3 Sorry, you may not know what that means. If the name
4 could be sent to you, Lieutenant 26. Do you recognise
5 that name?
6 A. Yes, I do. I was on the impression it was someone else,
7 but it may be right, it may well be right.
8 Q. You were in 8 Platoon; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Lieutenant 26 has made a statement saying he was the
11 commander of 8 Platoon.
12 A. Then I would take it as being read, yes.
13 If I could just clarify my lack of being specific
14 about this. It is because, up until a month or so
15 before, I was involved with another platoon, completely
16 separate to C Company and completely different
17 altogether, different things.
18 Q. You do not need to explain or justify why you may not
19 remember his name. Nobody is criticising you for that.
20 A. Fine.
21 Q. What I want to do is show you a small portion of the
22 statement that your Platoon Commander made in 1972. It
23 is at B1541. If we could highlight the third paragraph:
24 "About 1615 hours ... my entire platoon of 22 men
25 [that is including you] all moved down Chamberlain
1 Street towards Rossville Flats. We had one APC carrying
2 some of the platoon while some of us were on foot. Our
3 object was to secure our left flank and to consolidate
4 at the end of Chamberlain Street.
5 "As we moved down Chamberlain Street a crowd of
6 about 80 persons were confronting us. They moved
7 backwards as we approached and shouted abuse at us.
8 They remained 50 yards ahead of us all the time.
9 Nothing was thrown at us. When we reached the end of
10 Chamberlain Street, the crowd disappeared into the
11 Rossville Flats complex. The APC moved into a position
12 [at a grid reference] and the platoon deployed around
13 it."
14 He goes on to say:
15 "At this time I heard the sound of two distinct
16 weapons firing between 20 to 30 rounds ..."
17 The point is -- according to your Platoon
18 Commander's recollection, given on 4th February 1972,
19 just a few days after this event -- that there would
20 appear to have been no shooting down Chamberlain Street
21 from Rossville Flats; or, indeed, anywhere else.
22 Indeed, the shooting he talks about subsequently is
23 shooting that crossed his front, not went down
24 Chamberlain Street. Could it be that you have
25 a mistaken recollection about this?
1 A. After 30 years, I am sure it is more than likely on some
2 points that I have.
3 Q. Would you be prepared to agree that Lieutenant 26 may
4 have got it right, that there was in fact no shooting
5 down that street?
6 A. At some stage, whilst I was progressing down Chamberlain
7 Street, I know shots were fired from the Rossville Flats
8 area directly down and, to the best of my knowledge, in
9 my direction.
10 Q. You remember Corporal 007 as well, do you not? He was
11 also in 8 Platoon, although he was not in your section.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I do not think I need to take you to it, but he has made
14 a similar statement, at the same time, in 1972. Again
15 it does not appear that he was aware of any shooting
16 down Chamberlain Street?
17 A. Fine, I will accept what you are saying, taking it at
18 that. All that I know is that, at some stage whilst
19 moving down Chamberlain Street, that shots were fired.
20 Q. Could it be that you heard shots fired in the same way
21 that perhaps other soldiers heard shots fired across the
22 top of Chamberlain Street when you had arrived at the
23 end of Chamberlain Street, that is the Rossville Flats
24 end of Chamberlain Street?
25 A. Distinct possibility, I am not going to deny that;
1 although my recollection of the time was that there were
2 definitely shots fired down -- down Chamberlain Street,
3 and at that point, that is when the crowd dispersed into
4 the house.
5 Q. I think, in fairness to you, what you have said in your
6 statement at paragraph 15 was that your impression was
7 that it came directly in front of you from the
8 Rossville Flats area. In fact it could have been coming
9 from that forecourt area, the car park area, and not
10 being fired down Chamberlain Street at all; is that
11 right? Do you want to look at map Q9 again to see what
12 I am talking about?
13 A. Please.
14 Q. If we could highlight the area of the Rossville Flats
15 car park. I want to point out to you the location of
16 a Pig that parked in the mouth of that car park. It was
17 closer towards Block 2 than that. Shots were fired from
18 the occupants of that Pig across that car park, and
19 would have crossed the opening into Chamberlain Street.
20 Could it be that the shots you heard were shots that
21 were fired across there?
22 A. From what I feel, and what I feel now, and what I felt
23 at the time, that I was under the distinct impression
24 that shots were fired from my front down Chamberlain
25 Street. Now, I cannot remember the exact location.
1 I just felt, on recollection, that it was very soon
2 after we moved into Chamberlain Street, which would have
3 put us at the -- looking at the picture here, it would
4 have put us to the northeast of Chamberlain Street;
5 northeast of Chamberlain Street.
6 That is on recollection after 30 years. It could
7 have happened at any stage at that point and, depending
8 on where I actually was, it could have come from, as you
9 are trying to suggest, a number of places. But my time
10 there in -- at that particular time and to the best of
11 my knowledge now, there were shots fired down
12 Chamberlain Street at some stage when I was in
13 Chamberlain Street. Whether that was when I was in --
14 at the beginning, when we entered as a section, or
15 whether it was at the top end. And I believe it to be
16 not long after we had turned into Chamberlain Street,
17 because the significant thing to me was the crowd
18 disappearing into the house exactly at the same time as
19 the shots being fired.
20 Q. You have already accepted that there were no strikes --
21 LORD SAVILLE: I am sorry to interrupt you. Can you give me
22 an idea of how much longer you are likely to be?
23 MR MACDONALD: Five/ten minutes, perhaps.
24 LORD SAVILLE: If you keep to that, we may as well finish.
25 Who else wanted to ask questions?
1 MR BRADLY: Sir, I may do. For a couple of minutes only,
2 I may do.
3 LORD SAVILLE: I think we will continue for the time being.
4 MR MACDONALD: You have accepted there were no strikes that
5 you were aware of on any of the buildings?
6 A. I was not looking for strikes and I certainly did not
7 see any.
8 Q. You made no report of this, did you, on the radio?
9 A. No. I did not have a radio with me, anyway.
10 Q. Of course, no soldier was hit; is that right?
11 A. That is quite right.
12 Q. Even though, according to your account, they were spread
13 across the street and presented an easy target?
14 A. I did not say they were spread across the street. What
15 I did say is that they were up the street and that they
16 were half on one side of the street and half on the
17 other side of the street. The actual description, of
18 the way it is written down, perhaps gives the wrong
19 impression.
20 Q. The impression that you give, looking at C579.2, that is
21 at the bottom of the page, page 2 of your statement,
22 paragraph 13, is that your section:
23 "... stood side by side as we advanced, and we
24 covered the whole width of the street. I remember that
25 I was in the middle."
1 Is that not being spread across the street?
2 A. I was in the middle of the road, and the rest of my
3 section, half on one side of the street and half on the
4 other side of the street, advancing up the street, using
5 the cover of the doorways.
6 Q. You have said in paragraph 16 that you must have
7 presented an easy target. Do you want to withdraw that?
8 A. I was walking up the middle of the street. I probably
9 was presenting an easy target.
10 Q. In fact, although there were so many of you walking up
11 that street, facing the Rossville Flats, not one of you
12 saw a gunman?
13 A. I certainly never saw a gunman.
14 Q. Nobody had, because that is what you tell us in your
15 statement.
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. You had asked whether or not anybody had seen a gunman?
18 A. If anybody had seen a target, they would engage the
19 target. So, as no-one engaged any target, they could
20 not have obviously seen a target to engage.
21 Q. You say you all took cover, but it does not appear
22 Lieutenant 26, the Platoon Commander, or Corporal 007
23 took cover?
24 A. With all due respect to what they did or did not do,
25 I had no interest, because they were not in my section.
1 I was only interested in myself and my own section.
2 Q. Do all these things not suggest to you that maybe you
3 are just wrong about this and it did not happen?
4 LORD SAVILLE: Could I interrupt a moment?
5 As you went down Chamberlain Street, were there any
6 soldiers in front of your section, or were you the first
7 going down there?
8 A. We were the first going down James Street -- sorry,
9 Chamberlain Street.
10 MR MACDONALD: I was trying to ask whether or not, in the
11 light of all those circumstances, nobody saw this
12 gunman. Lieutenant N was not aware of any firing down
13 the street; Corporal 007 is the same. They did not take
14 cover. And the various other matters I have drawn to
15 your attention, whether you are prepared to accept, in
16 fairness, this may very well not have happened at all.
17 A. I will accept, in fairness, that it may not have
18 happened at all, as long as you accept in fairness that
19 it may well have happened.
20 Q. You did not make in any reference in your statement to
21 hearing about 100 shots being fired from SLRs in the
22 wasteground beside you, near or in the area near to
23 where you were?
24 A. I think I have made a statement to say that I heard
25 shots and firing coming from the area to my right.
1 Q. Did you hear 100 or more shots fired by soldiers, or
2 not?
3 A. At that particular time, going down Chamberlain Street,
4 I was more concerned with my own section and my own
5 responsibilities. And, yes, I could hear firing coming
6 from my right, but exactly what it was and to what
7 extent, I have to admit that I could not -- I did not
8 have time to stop and count.
9 Q. You say in paragraph 18 of your statement, C579.3, that
10 you went into this house at the end of Chamberlain
11 Street and saw a woman who did not appear to be in any
12 great pain and, on closer inspection, you could see that
13 she had been shot in the buttocks. Did you actually
14 inspect the wound that had been sustained by this woman?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. You did not?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Then why did you say on closer inspection you could see
19 where she had been shot?
20 A. I think I said that on inspection that I could see she
21 had been shot in the buttocks.
22 Q. What is that supposed to mean, "on closer inspection"?
23 A. On closer inspection, is that my first reaction, when
24 I went in and saw this lady lying on the settee, the
25 priest informed me that she had been wounded, shot and
1 wounded.
2 But the actual woman herself gave me the impression
3 that she really was stoical, she was not showing any
4 great pain or stress, or appeared to me that she was
5 showing pain and stress. And I just asked could I see,
6 and then I could see, obviously, that it did not need
7 a brain surgeon to actually just check her backside to
8 see that there was a lot of blood and she was obviously
9 in great pain and discomfort. And that is when I said
10 to the priest that I think he should move her outside so
11 that she could get medical attention.
12 Q. Do you realise you have just said the complete opposite
13 to what you have said in your statement, about her being
14 in great pain?
15 A. What I am saying at the time, and what I have said in
16 the statement, to the best of my knowledge, when I first
17 looked at the woman, when I first looked at the woman
18 she did not seem to be in pain or under stress. She was
19 very calm and did not appear in pain.
20 So that is why I assumed then that -- that it was
21 not such a -- at that moment in time, she did not appear
22 to be in pain. That is why I asked if I could see. And
23 one of the reasons I was checking was not so much to see
24 if she was wounded, but if she was lying on top of
25 a rifle or any other weapon. That is what I was more
1 concerned about.
2 But the minute that I asked her to move and she
3 moved, I could see that she was wounded, and it is then
4 that I said to the priest that -- words to the effect
5 of, "Take her outside to get medical attention, seek an
6 ambulance", or words to that effect. What I said
7 specifically at that time, I cannot remember, obviously.
8 Q. You had no reason to believe that she was concealing
9 a weapon, did you?
10 A. If someone had said to me that she is shot and she is
11 wounded, I would have expected her to have been in, you
12 know, a lot of pain, and to show a lot of pain. She was
13 not; she was lying on the settee. And that was the
14 first thing that I thought of, that she may be lying
15 there concealing a weapon.
16 Q. When you ascertained that she in fact had suffered
17 a very extensive injury to her thigh, and that she was
18 in grave pain, as you have now said, you did not in fact
19 take any steps to arrange for an ambulance, did you?
20 A. I did not take any steps to arrange an ambulance.
21 I gave may advice to the priest sitting there.
22 Q. There was no priest sitting there, was there?
23 A. To the best of my knowledge, there was a priest sitting
24 there. If it was not a priest, then it was someone in,
25 I assume, clerical garb.
1 Q. That would have been a constructive thing to do, to
2 arrange for an ambulance?
3 A. Yes, in reflection, yes.
4 Q. You did not take any steps to arrange for an ambulance
5 or medical treatment for Jackie Duddy, the boy that was
6 carried out behind Father Daly?
7 A. No. I would have assumed, because I had other
8 responsibilities, that someone else would have been
9 doing those kind of things.
10 Q. Like who?
11 A. Could have been anybody. It could have been the Platoon
12 Commander; it could have been anyone. It could have
13 been any other senior NCO or officer that was in the
14 area.
15 Q. You did not really care less whether medical treatment
16 was arranged promptly for either the woman in the
17 house -- that is Peggy Deery -- or for Jackie Duddy.
18 A. I resent that remark.
19 Q. Could you answer the question?
20 A. I resent the remark --
21 Q. Did you do anything that would indicate that you cared
22 at all for the medical treatment of these two
23 individuals, yes or no?
24 A. I did not call for an ambulance. I gave my advice to
25 the cleric or whoever it may have been that was with the
1 woman, comforting the woman, and said -- well, I just
2 gave them the advice to take her outside so she could
3 get treatment.
4 Q. As for the people in the house in Chamberlain Street,
5 you knew they had done absolutely nothing wrong; is that
6 right?
7 A. To the best of my knowledge, they had not given me any
8 grief, and they had --
9 Q. Not just that. You said no-one in the house had been
10 causing trouble; they were just bystanders. Is that
11 what you said?
12 A. Exactly.
13 Q. You were in as good a position as any in your platoon to
14 see whether or not any of these people had been rioting
15 at the barrier?
16 A. I would not know whether they had been at the barrier or
17 not, all I know is that there was a crowd that had moved
18 back down to the end of Chamberlain Street and had
19 formed up at the end of Chamberlain Street.
20 Q. There were no grounds for you to arrest any of the
21 people in that house, were there?
22 A. If I had not been called back, there may have been
23 grounds. If I had gone in and taken someone in with me
24 to search the individuals, then maybe I would have found
25 grounds to have arrested them. But, as I was called
1 back out, there was no need for me to go any further.
2 Q. I am saying that there was no ground for you to arrest
3 these individuals in the house on the basis of anything
4 you had seen before they moved into that house; is that
5 right?
6 A. Before they moved into the house, yes.
7 Q. The same applied to the rest of your platoon; is that
8 right?
9 A. I would not be able to answer for the others.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 Questioned by MR BRADLY
12 MR BRADLY: Could we have Q9 on the screen, please. INQ579,
13 my name is Bradly and I represent a large number of the
14 soldiers appearing before this Inquiry.
15 Could we highlight Chamberlain Street, please. I am
16 using this map, 579, because, as you saw earlier, the
17 map exhibited to your own statement has got folded over
18 in the copying; you remember that.
19 On your map you put a letter A in about that
20 position there; do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That position A represented the position you had reached
25 going down Chamberlain Street at the time you heard the
1 shots which you described as coming from the south; do
2 you understand?
3 A. That is correct, yes.
4 Q. In answer to a question from the Chairman, you have said
5 that your section was the first section to be going down
6 the street; that is right?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. Were you towards the front of the section as the section
9 proceeded down the street?
10 A. I was to the rear of the section, controlling --
11 Q. You were to the rear of the section?
12 A. Yes, in the middle of the street, half on either side.
13 Q. So the other two sections of the platoon would have been
14 somewhere to your rear?
15 A. I assume that is -- yes.
16 Q. And platoon headquarters, containing the Platoon
17 Commander, would also have been somewhere to your rear,
18 would they?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember where they were in the street?
21 A. No, I cannot.
22 Q. Were they with you? Was the Platoon Commander with you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So he was somewhere to your rear in amongst the other
25 sections?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you do not know where that was?
3 A. No.
4 MR ROXBURGH: Sir, I have no further questions.
5 LORD SAVILLE: INQ579, the Chairman again. Thank you very
6 much indeed for coming here to help us, thank you.
7 I fear today is another day where we have run out of
8 witnesses and we shall have to reassemble then tomorrow
9 at 9.30.
10 (12.20 pm)
11 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 a.m on
12 Wednesday, 12th March 2003)
13
14
15 INQ834, sworn ................................ 2
16 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY ..................... 2
17 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD ................... 12
18 Questioned by MR BRADLY ...................... 15
19 INQ1951, sworn ............................... 16
20 Questioned by MR RAWAT ....................... 16
21 Questioned by MR ARTHUR HARVEY ............... 28
22 INQ579, sworn ................................ 36
23 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH .................... 36
24 Questioned by MR ELIAS ....................... 67
25 Questioned by MR BRADLY ...................... 86