1 Tuesday, 29th January 2002
2 (9.30 a.m)
3 MR ELIAS: Sir, may I take this opportunity, since we are to
4 adjourn now and move away from civilian evidence, to
5 spend three or four minutes raising three matters of
6 particular concern?
7 We raise them now because they are matters that, in
8 the ordinary course of events, we would have expected to
9 have been dealt with before moving on to evidence from
10 the Security Forces. The three matters are
11 these: intelligence material, outstanding civilian
12 witnesses, and the third, the limited extent of direct
13 evidence from the IRA.
14 I raise it now, sir, because we think it right to
15 express publicly the nature of our concerns and to seek
16 an update from the Tribunal, where that may be possible,
17 in relation to each of these matters.
18 Firstly intelligence material: we do not
19 underestimate, of course, the size of the task involved
20 and recognise the complications that arise in terms of
21 the procedure adopted to deal with intelligence material
22 once it has been produced and summarised by the
23 agencies.
24 However, it is a real concern that more than a year
25 has now passed since we discovered that intelligence
1 material relating to civilian witnesses have not been
2 sought by the Tribunal and of course we asked at that
3 stage that the matter be looked at with some urgency.
4 The interested parties have not received any
5 material, so far as we are aware, arising out of the
6 searches by the agencies nor any indication of how the
7 matter is proceeding.
8 The time estimate for production of relevant
9 information that was given by the intelligence agencies
10 during submissions in mid May last was six months,
11 although, as Counsel to the Tribunal Mr Clarke pointed
12 out, it might be less given that the summaries would
13 not, in the first instance, be disclosed to the
14 interested parties.
15 As the Tribunal will recall, it is not just
16 intelligence information on relevantly identified
17 witnesses that is covered by your ruling, but also
18 material obtained during the search of witness files
19 relevant to issues such as the use of field hospitals,
20 first aid posts, previous sniper positions that may have
21 been used and the use of crowds as cover for IRA gunmen.
22 We know, sir, that these matters are being pursued
23 by the Tribunal, but we do not know what stage the
24 process has reached. Therefore, in addition to our
25 simply making known our concern in this regard, we would
1 appreciate an update on the progress that has been made,
2 an indication of how many witnesses and potential
3 witnesses are involved and an indication of when we may
4 expect to receive any material on tactics of the IRA and
5 matters of that kind.
6 The second matter of concern, sir, involves civilian
7 witnesses still to be called. The Tribunal will be
8 aware there are a significant number of civilian
9 witnesses who have been listed but have not yet given
10 oral evidence. On our assessment, taking account the
11 witnesses called this week, the number of civilian
12 witnesses still to be called numbers just over 100.
13 The importance of the witnesses yet to be called is
14 demonstrated by the fact that they include on the one
15 hand at least seven witnesses who apparently have
16 relevant evidence about fire from civilian gunmen; on
17 the other hand, at least one outstanding witness who was
18 himself shot and wounded on Bloody Sunday.
19 We appreciate, of course, that in some cases the
20 absence of these witnesses arises out of illness or some
21 other genuine difficulties in finding convenient dates
22 and matters of that kind, but in addition, as we
23 understand it, a proportion of the witnesses who have
24 not been called may have been held back for other
25 reasons.
1 In a letter dated 22nd June last year, Mr Tate was
2 able to provide to Mr Lawton and copy to the rest of us
3 a breakdown of the various reasons why civilian
4 witnesses have not been called. Now that the Tribunal
5 is moving on to the evidence from the RUC, it would be
6 useful, we submit, if that list could be updated to
7 include all of the 100 or so outstanding civilian
8 witnesses.
9 I say this finally on this subject: whilst of course
10 we have no objection whatsoever to moving on to other
11 areas of evidence so that time is not wasted, we would
12 submit to the Tribunal that it is important to call the
13 remaining civilian witnesses as soon as possible.
14 In particular, insofar as there may be civilians who
15 are reticent about giving their evidence, they may, for
16 various reasons, be some of the more important witnesses
17 the Tribunal really ought to hear.
18 We submit there should be no question of the
19 outstanding civilian witnesses not being called or being
20 relegated in some way in importance because they are not
21 being heard now, merely because the Tribunal has by this
22 stage heard from a considerable number of witnesses.
23 Sir, our third concern relates to statements from
24 the two wings of the IRA. We raise this concern, of
25 course, against the background, firstly, that the
1 families have repeatedly and helpfully made clear their
2 wish that members of the IRA should come forward to give
3 evidence about what occurred on Bloody Sunday and,
4 secondly, that in opening Counsel for the Tribunal
5 stated the Tribunal had written to something in the
6 order of 40 people whom the Tribunal had reason to think
7 may have been members of or connected with the IRA, but
8 we were told that, with a few honourable exceptions,
9 they had not replied.
10 That list of 40 people must, we suspect, have been
11 expanded since Counsel's opening and as more information
12 has been forthcoming, both from witnesses to the Inquiry
13 and from recently published books and matters of that
14 kind.
15 Fourteen months on from the first day of oral
16 evidence to this Tribunal, the position for the soldier
17 teams is that we are in possession of a total of just
18 three statements from admitted members of the IRA,
19 namely Mr McGlinchey, Mr Tester and, of course, most
20 recently, Mr McGuinness.
21 There may be a limited number of Eversheds
22 statements from IRA members that are in the pipeline, as
23 it were. We would expect Eversheds statements to be
24 forthcoming from the clients of Mr Fee, but therefore at
25 this stage, as the Tribunal is about to move into the
1 evidence from the RUC, the very clear impression we have
2 is that while the number of honourable exceptions has
3 increased, it has done so only very marginally. In
4 particular, there is very little further evidence from
5 the Provisional wing of the IRA.
6 Whether there is a view in that organisation that
7 they do not need to give evidence because Mr McGuinness
8 is going to testify, of course we cannot say. If that
9 is the perception, we would expect the Tribunal would
10 find it no more acceptable than if the adjutant of the
11 1st Battalion of the Parachute Regiment proposed to give
12 evidence as to what the Battalion had done on
13 Bloody Sunday in place of evidence from individual
14 soldiers -- particularly, we submit, in the light of the
15 fact that Mr McGuinness indicates in his recently
16 disclosed statement that Provisional IRA members were on
17 the Bloody Sunday march.
18 If the evidence from the IRA remains as limited as
19 it does at present, then of course the Tribunal will
20 have to grapple in its final report with the question of
21 what inferences are to be properly drawn from the
22 paucity of direct evidence in this area of inquiry.
23 As the Tribunal will be aware and as we made clear
24 in opening, a number of the former soldiers who we
25 represent acknowledge there were shortcomings in the
1 Army's planning and execution of Operation Forecast and
2 that there may have been, in individual cases, some loss
3 of military discipline.
4 As we said in opening, reference opening statements
5 8.3 at paragraph 4 and 5:
6 "The question as to what extent, directly or
7 indirectly, any such shortcomings may have contributed
8 to the loss of life or injury to civilians on the
9 streets must await proper analysis, but so must
10 consideration of the impact of any such failings as
11 factors such as the existence or otherwise of non-army
12 fire, its intensity and timing."
13 That is what we said in opening, sir, those many
14 months ago. It is that last factor in particular at the
15 moment we suggest the Tribunal will find difficult to
16 assess in the face of so little direct evidence from the
17 IRA.
18 So that we may know what level of co-operation from
19 the IRA is presently forthcoming, we therefore would
20 appreciate an indication of the following: first, how
21 many people are now on the Tribunal's list of known or
22 suspected IRA members in 1972; secondly, how many have
23 been excluded from that list, for example because they
24 have since died; thirdly, how many on the list have been
25 traced and contacted; fourthly, how many have been
1 interviewed or have agreed to be interviewed by
2 Eversheds, and lastly, how many of the witnesses who may
3 have been contacted have declined to co-operate.
4 In making those requests, sir, of course we do not
5 ask for anything which might compromise further
6 applications for anonymity.
7 Sir, those are our concerns which we raise at this
8 stage. I am grateful for the opportunity to raise them
9 and no doubt in due course, we may hear some answers.
10 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much, Mr Elias.
11 Mr Clarke, you may not be able to give completely
12 specific answers, especially to the last rather detailed
13 questions. Are you able to help on any of these three
14 matters?
15 MR CLARKE: I can say something immediately, and it is
16 perhaps desirable that I do so before the questions fade
17 from memory, although, I fear, it will provide rather
18 limited comfort.
19 So far as the intelligence material is concerned, we
20 are making progress, but it is inevitably very slow.
21 The relevant agencies have provided summaries in
22 relation to the list of witnesses given to them by the
23 Inquiry and access to the underlying material of
24 relevance and a further update of our list is about to
25 be submitted to them.
1 The reason why progress on the issue is slow is
2 because it has to be carried out by my learned friends
3 Mr Roxburgh and Ms McGahey when the Tribunal is not
4 sitting and at a secure location.
5 They have been beavering away on Fridays and on
6 other days when the Tribunal is not sitting, but the
7 material is very intractable. Much of it is upon
8 microfiche and poorly preserved. Often the judgment
9 cannot be made on one item without reference to others,
10 which themselves generate potential further enquiries.
11 The labour involved is both time-consuming and
12 onerous. As to the numbers involved, all witnesses in
13 our database, including persons who may not yet have
14 been traced, are the subject of checks, although only
15 a small proportion have thrown up anything to be looked
16 at at all.
17 I do not think it right to give an indication of how
18 many witnesses are persons in respect of whom files are
19 being checked, because this may give rise to
20 a misleading impression since many of those who fall
21 prima facie within this category may turn out to be
22 persons in relation to whom no relevant material, or no
23 relevant material worth deploying, exists.
24 It will, I am afraid, probably be several months at
25 the earliest before any material is available. The
1 exercise of examining and assessing the material
2 internally as it were has to be completed and a decision
3 made as to what can usefully be deployed.
4 There will, or may then arise Public Interest
5 Immunity considerations and/or Article 2 considerations.
6 There are very real difficulties which may prove in some
7 respects insuperable in knowing how to deal with this
8 combination of problems, particularly if material
9 relating to witness X also impacts upon a number of
10 other named persons who may not even be on the database
11 and whose existence and whereabouts may be unknown or
12 unclear.
13 So far as outstanding witnesses is concerned, the
14 number of outstanding witnesses, in the sense of
15 civilian witnesses whose evidence is due to be called
16 but has not yet been called is, by our reckoning,
17 considerably less than the figure mentioned.
18 Many of those who have not yet been called are
19 witnesses who have been converted from witnesses to be
20 called into witnesses to be read.
21 A substantial number, including the one wounded
22 person who has not yet been called, are ill and
23 certified to be such.
24 In a limited number of cases the Inquiry has lost
25 touch with the witnesses.
1 Some, not that many, are persons in relation to whom
2 files are being examined. There are only about seven,
3 not falling within the previous categories, who have
4 simply refused to come.
5 I can certainly confirm, the fact that a witness is
6 outstanding does not mean that he is thereby relegated
7 in importance.
8 So far as the IRA is concerned, the Inquiry has
9 received the initial statements of the five members of
10 the Official IRA who sought and were granted anonymity
11 and they are, I hope, soon to be interviewed by
12 Eversheds. We already of course have and have
13 circulated, Mr Tester's statement.
14 So far as the Provisional IRA are concerned, the
15 Tribunal have and have distributed Mr McGuinness's
16 statement and a long time ago we heard the evidence of
17 Mr McGlinchey.
18 Apart from interviewing the latter two and taking
19 a statement from Mr X, whose anonymity application is
20 pending, Eversheds have, so far as I am aware,
21 interviewed no other declared IRA members.
22 I am going to consider further what my learned
23 friend has said on the question of numbers, but I should
24 say that there are difficulties inherent in giving
25 details of the numbers of people known or suspected to
1 be in either wing of the IRA.
2 The information available at the time of the opening
3 in relation to which, so far as I was then aware, no
4 Public Interest Immunity considerations arose, has grown
5 as a result of the Inquiry's actions in investigation,
6 but in its present state its quality is varied.
7 More importantly, much of the material is
8 potentially itself the subject of a Public Interest
9 Immunity application and specification of numbers may
10 give a misleading impression, both as to accuracy or
11 relevance.
12 I will give the matter further thought, but
13 I strongly suspect that any answer in this respect may
14 itself have to await the exercise that has been carried
15 out in relation to intelligence material itself.
16 MR ELIAS: Sir, I am very grateful for that measured
17 response. May I indicate in relation to witnesses
18 outstanding that we have a list. We believe we have
19 taken from it the witnesses who have been transferred,
20 as it were, to the read list. Perhaps we could provide
21 that to my learned friend and it could be checked
22 through. Certainly our figure, at the present time
23 anyway, comes to about 100.
24 MR CLARKE: Of course we will check through any list that is
25 provided.
1 MR JOHN HUTTON, sworn
2 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Hutton, if you look to your right you can
4 see that it is the Chairman speaking to you. Sorry to
5 keep you waiting there while we dealt with that matter.
6 I say this to all the witnesses: I am the Chairman. The
7 questions will come from the barristers, the people in
8 front of me. Could you please keep pretty close to that
9 microphone so we can all hear what you have to say.
10 Yes, Mr Roxburgh.
11 MR ROXBURGH: Mr Hutton, do you have with you a copy of the
12 statement that you made to this Inquiry on
13 12th February 2000.
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. Is it right that you also made a further statement on
16 25th January this year, which we have at page AH105.10?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If we take those two statements together and bearing in
19 mind the various qualifications that you make in the
20 second statement to what you said in the first, are the
21 contents of the two statements true to the best of your
22 knowledge and belief?
23 A. Could you go back there to 25th, what, January?
24 Q. Yes, we have it on the screen, a statement signed by you
25 on 25th January --
1 A. Yes, I have it, yes.
2 Q. If we take this statement together with the longer one
3 that you made on 12th February 2000, are the contents of
4 those two statements true to the best of your knowledge
5 and belief?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we go back to paragraphs 1 and 2 of your main
8 statement you tell us that on Bloody Sunday you went on
9 the civil rights march and in paragraph 1 you say that
10 when you arrived at the junction of William Street and
11 Rossville Street at about the point marked A on the map
12 attached, you could see soldiers at an Army barrier in
13 Little James Street at about point B.
14 In paragraph 2 you say that "lads were throwing
15 stones at the soldiers" at the barrier in
16 Little James Street and then you say this:
17 "The soldiers at the barrier at Little James Street
18 started firing gas cannisters and I recall my attention
19 being caught by a wee lad who was behind me at about
20 point C. I turned round and saw that he was holding his
21 hands to his face. There was a tear gas cannister on
22 the ground just near to him. He had been hit in the
23 face by the gas cannister and he was bleeding from the
24 nose. The cannister must have passed over my head.
25 A Knight of Malta took him around the corner on to the
1 wasteground and started treating him."
2 Can we then look at the plan attached to your
3 statement at AH105.7. We can see that what has been
4 marked on the plan is point B indicating where you
5 thought the barrier was; point A indicating where you
6 thought you were and point C where the young man who was
7 hit by the gas cannister was. We can see also that on
8 the map itself there has been marked an Army barrier
9 called barrier 12 just a bit further up
10 Little James Street. Do you think that may be the
11 barrier you were referring to?
12 A. It probably was, yes, it probably was.
13 Q. Let me show you a photograph. Can we look at P366,
14 please. Here is Little James Street running up there
15 and Rossville Street would be off the picture to the
16 left and do you see the barrier in the photograph just
17 where my second arrow is? (Indicating).
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Perhaps if we take the arrows off you will be able to
20 see more clearly. Does that look like the barrier that
21 you remember, Mr Hutton?
22 A. I just seen a barrier and that was it, you know, I did
23 not ...
24 Q. Could it have been that barrier?
25 A. It could have been, yes.
1 Q. Can we go back to the plan at AH105.7. You recall
2 standing somewhere around the corner of William Street
3 and Rossville Street; is that right?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. What were you doing as you stood there, were you just
6 standing and watching or --
7 A. Just standing and watching, yes.
8 Q. Were you looking, therefore, towards the barrier?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it right, your recollection is that the young lad who
11 was hit was behind you when he was hit by the gas
12 cannister?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In other words, he was further away from the barrier
15 than you were?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you turned round, do you actually remember seeing
18 the gas cannister on the ground near him?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know whether the young man who was hit had been
21 one of the people who had been throwing stones at the
22 barrier?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You say that after he had been hit a Knights of Malta
25 volunteer took him round the corner and began to treat
1 him?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember whether the Knights of Malta volunteer
4 was a man or a woman?
5 A. He was a man.
6 Q. Can we look, please, at another photograph, P783. Does
7 that scene appear at all familiar to you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You do not recognise anyone in the photograph?
10 A. Oh, I know people in the photograph, yes.
11 Q. Is it possible that the man in the centre of the
12 photograph is the man who was hit by the gas cannister
13 or can you not tell?
14 A. I cannot tell.
15 Q. Your previous answer was that you did know people in the
16 photograph; is that right?
17 A. Yes, I know them by seeing them, yes.
18 Q. Do you know the names of any of the people in the
19 photograph?
20 A. No, I am not quite sure, no.
21 Q. Do you have any idea of the names of anyone in the
22 photograph?
23 A. No, I just know them to see them, not to speak to. I do
24 not know their names.
25 Q. If we look at paragraph 16 of your statement at page
1 AH105.3, you said in that statement:
2 "I have made a statement previously, about a week or
3 two weeks after 30th January 1972, to a certain
4 solicitor who is no longer a solicitor. I do not know
5 what has happened to my statement and I do not think
6 I will be able to obtain it from the solicitor."
7 Can we look, then, please, at AH105.8, which is
8 a manuscript statement with your name at the top. If we
9 look on to the next page, 105.9, we can see at the foot
10 of the page that it is dated 25th February 1972. Is
11 that your signature at the bottom?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is this the statement to which you were referring when
14 you said there was a statement you made a week or two
15 after Bloody Sunday?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It says "witnessed by John L Doherty," is he the
18 solicitor to whom you were referring?
19 A. (Witness nodding).
20 Q. You are nodding. Do you remember, Mr Hutton, what the
21 purpose was for which this statement was taken?
22 A. Why I made the statement?
23 Q. Yes?
24 A. Because I had seen Barney McGuigan shot dead.
25 Q. Did somebody come and ask you to take the statement or
1 did you decide?
2 A. No, voluntary.
3 Q. You just went to the solicitor, did you, and said you
4 would like to make a statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You have said in your most recent statement to this
7 Inquiry that with certain exceptions your 1972 statement
8 is more likely to be accurate than your first statement
9 to this Inquiry because it was made closer in time to
10 Bloody Sunday; is that right as a general comment?
11 A. Yes, aye.
12 Q. Let us look, then, if we may, at what you say at the
13 beginning of the statement you made at the time,
14 AH105.8, please. In the first few lines, you say this:
15 "On Sunday, 30th January 1972, I was along with
16 a large crowd of people which had been stopped at an
17 Army barrier in William Street. Gas was being fired by
18 the Army and I retreated along with a large part of the
19 crowd into Rossville Street. I stood looking over
20 Rossville Street towards William Street from the
21 wasteground between Eden Place and Pilot Row:
22 "I noticed a young man being brought over the
23 wasteground. He was bleeding from the mouth and I was
24 told that he had been hit with a CS gas cannister."
25 Pausing there, Mr Hutton, it sounds from that as
1 though when this incident happened you were on the
2 wasteground between Eden Place and Pilot Row and you saw
3 the young man who had been injured being brought over
4 the wasteground. Do you think that may be correct?
5 A. Yeah, near enough, yes.
6 Q. May it also be right, as it says here, that someone told
7 you that he had been hit with a gas cannister?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So, in other words, may the position be that when you
10 saw him he had been brought to the wasteground from
11 somewhere else, from wherever he had been when he was
12 hit?
13 A. No, he was hit --
14 Q. You think he was hit when he was standing right behind
15 you, do you?
16 A. Well, he was not behind, he was about, say, 15, 20 yards
17 behind me.
18 Q. You are quite sure, are you, you saw the gas cannister
19 at his feet as opposed to simply being told by somebody
20 that he had been hit by a gas cannister?
21 A. I seen the gas cannister.
22 Q. Let us move on to paragraph 3 of your statement to this
23 Inquiry, your first statement at AH 105.1, where you say
24 that you could see Army Saracens behind the barrier in
25 Little James Street and then you refer to your friend,
1 Sam Kelly, and you say that the two of you started
2 heading south down Rossville Street and across the
3 wasteground.
4 So far as you know, Mr Hutton, is Mr Kelly still
5 alive?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you still in contact with him?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know whether he is still living in Derry?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you be able to assist the Inquiry as to how to get
12 in touch with him if necessary?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. You say in this paragraph, in the third line:
15 "About four or five Saracens then started coming
16 into Rossville Street from Little James Street and on to
17 the wasteground. I was among a fairly dense crowd of
18 people and we were gradually being moved back by the
19 entry of the Saracens into the courtyard of the
20 Rossville Flats. I then saw two Saracens come south
21 down Chamberlain Street into the courtyard of the
22 Rossville Flats."
23 Mr Hutton, do you still have a memory of two
24 Saracens coming into the car park of the
25 Rossville Flats?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How far into the car park did they come?
3 A. Well, the last time that I looked back when I was
4 running, they were just on the edge of the flats.
5 Q. When you say "the edge of the flats"...
6 A. Yeah, the start of the flats on Rossville Street, on --
7 Q. What you said here is that you saw two Saracens come
8 south down Chamberlain Street into the courtyard of the
9 Rossville Flats; is that right?
10 A. They came out of Chamberlain Street. I could not see
11 down Chamberlain Street.
12 Q. So you recall two Saracens coming out of
13 Chamberlain Street just to the beginning of the car
14 park; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You are sure, are you, that they came down
17 Chamberlain Street as opposed to coming in from the
18 direction of the wasteground and Rossville Street?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You are not sure about that?
21 A. No, I seen them coming --
22 Q. You are sure. Can we look at P188, please. What
23 I would like to suggest to you is that in fact only one
24 Saracen came to the mouth of the car park, as we see in
25 this photograph, which shows the view out of the car
1 park towards the wasteground and none of them came down
2 Chamberlain Street. Do you think that might be the
3 position, or are you sure they came down
4 Chamberlain Street?
5 A. I seen them coming down Chamberlain Street.
6 Q. Do you remember, Mr Hutton, that in fact there was
7 a line of bollards across the end of Chamberlain Street
8 where it came into the car park of the Rossville Flats?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can we look, please, at P948. This is a view down
11 Chamberlain Street looking into the car park of the
12 Rossville Flats, a photograph taken on Bloody Sunday.
13 Can you see where my arrows are?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There were some bollards there. It would appear from
16 that that it was not possible for Saracens to come out
17 of Chamberlain Street into the car park; do you think in
18 the light of that you might be mistaken in your
19 recollection?
20 A. I could be.
21 Q. If we go to paragraphs 4 and 5 of your first statement
22 to this Inquiry at AH105.1, you describe running towards
23 the passage between blocks 1 and 2 of the
24 Rossville Flats and seeing a man and his wife becoming
25 caught up in the crush?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you made it through to the other side of the flats;
3 is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Up to this point, so far as you can remember, had you
6 heard any shooting? Please say if you cannot remember?
7 A. I cannot remember.
8 Q. In paragraph 5, dealing with what happened after you got
9 through to the other side, you say:
10 "I headed south towards the southern block of
11 Joseph Place. I hung around at point D on the map for
12 about five or ten minutes. I was still with my friend,
13 Sam Kelly. Suddenly I heard two shots ring out, 'bing,
14 bing'. Someone shouted 'they are shooting from the
15 wall,' so we all hit the deck. At this time I was at
16 about point E on the grass verge, close to the path
17 which runs along the front of Joseph Place."
18 Can we look, please, at the plan at AH105.7 to see
19 where you are talking about. You have referred to going
20 to point D which is right down the south end, the Free
21 Derry Corner end of Joseph Place?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then of hearing shots when you were at point E which
24 is at the other end of the southern block of
25 Joseph Place. Have I understood this correctly: your
1 recollection is that you went all the way down to
2 point D and waited around for five or 10 minutes and
3 then went back to point E where you heard the shots; is
4 that what you are saying?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Point D, as we can see, is quite close to Free Derry
7 Corner. Do you remember what was happening at Free
8 Derry Corner when you were at point D?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you recollect even whether there was a crowd of
11 people or not many people there at all, or can you
12 simply not remember?
13 A. I do not remember.
14 Q. Do you really think you stayed down at point D for as
15 long as five or 10 minutes, or may it not have been as
16 long as that?
17 A. I am not quite sure.
18 Q. Can you remember why you decided to go back towards the
19 Rossville Flats after you had been down at point D?
20 A. No, I just walked back down.
21 Q. Let us look again if we may at paragraph 5 at AH105.2
22 where you speak of these shots you heard. You say,
23 picking it up in the third line:
24 "The sound I heard was that of bullets passing close
25 by. Although someone said the shooting was coming from
1 the walls, I could not really see how the bullets could
2 have come from there because the line of sight was not
3 right. My impression was that the bullets were coming
4 south from Rossville Street. Although I had seen the
5 Army on the walls looking down at us from Nailor's Row,
6 I had only seen them looking and did not see them
7 shooting."
8 If we go back to the plan at AH105.7 and enlarge the
9 area of the Rossville Flats and the city walls, we can
10 see that you were standing somewhere around point E and
11 you remember seeing soldiers at Nailor's Row. We can
12 see Nailor's Row --
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. You did not see soldiers at Nailor's Row?
15 A. No, I seen the soldiers -- I did not make any comment,
16 I only seen the soldiers when I was standing at the
17 position of D, that is the only place that I could have
18 seen the soldiers, from the walls.
19 Q. So you were at D. Were the soldiers actually on the
20 walls or were they underneath the walls? We can see
21 that Nailor's Row is the name given to the path that
22 runs along immediately underneath the walls; do you
23 remember where the soldiers were?
24 A. They were just looking out through the portholes, you
25 know, of the walls, you know.
1 Q. They were actually up on the walls, not underneath the
2 walls?
3 A. No, they were up on the walls, where I have seen from D
4 where I was standing.
5 Q. Can we go back again to paragraphs 5 and 6 at AH105.2.
6 You say at the end of paragraph 5 that you stayed on the
7 ground at point E for a minute or so and then there was
8 a lull so you got up and started walking north again.
9 In paragraph 6 you say that as you got to point F or
10 about point F, you heard once again "bing bing." The
11 shots sounded the same and seemed to be coming from the
12 same direction as before. You flung yourselves to the
13 ground. Then you say:
14 "As we lay on the ground at point F, I heard
15 a fellow crying out 'I am dying, I am dying'. He was
16 lying on the grass about 10 feet away from me." At
17 about point G. You recognised him as Michael Bradley.
18 Was Mr Bradley somebody you knew personally at the
19 time?
20 A. No, I did not know him personally, I just, I knew him.
21 Q. But you knew his name?
22 A. I knew his name, yes.
23 Q. You say he was calling for people to get a priest
24 because --
25 A. That is when he was taken into the house.
1 Q. And you helped to lift him into one of the houses at
2 Joseph Place?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In this statement you have said that you got him into
5 the third or fourth house from the north end of
6 Joseph Place but I think you now accept that you are not
7 sure which house it was and it could have been the first
8 house?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The one closest to the Rossville Flats?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also say that:
15 "Someone said there was a priest in a house" in
16 Joseph Place and a priest arrived in a couple of minutes
17 and he was "a big sandy-haired fellow" who you did not
18 recognise.
19 Could we look at the plan at AH105.7 to see where
20 points F and G are, G representing the position of
21 Michael Bradley when you saw him. Is it your
22 recollection that when you saw Mr Bradley he was on the
23 ground or were there people helping him when you first
24 saw him?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember him lying on the ground or do you
2 remember him being carried?
3 A. I remember him being carried by three men.
4 Q. When it says in your statement that Mr Bradley was lying
5 on the grass, that is not your recollection now; he was
6 being carried?
7 A. He was being carried.
8 Q. Did you see where he had been carried from?
9 A. I am not really sure.
10 Q. Can we look then, please, at P732. This is a photograph
11 taken a little later when Mr Bradley was being brought
12 out of Joseph Place to an ambulance. We can see
13 Mr Bradley on the trolley and on the left of him on the
14 photograph see a man with a clerical collar. May that
15 have been the priest whom you saw attending to
16 Mr Bradley?
17 A. I am not quite sure.
18 Q. I would like to look again at a portion of the statement
19 you made at the time at AH105.8. If we enlarge the area
20 between the two punched holes, please. I am going to
21 pick this up at the point where you come out of the car
22 park of the Rossville Flats. What is written here, is
23 this:
24 "A girl seemed to have got herself jammed in the
25 alleyway. She was somewhat hysterical, so I helped to
1 get her through the alleyway and into Joseph Place.
2 I then walked towards the hexagonal-designed play court
3 at Joseph's Place. Just then I heard shooting. It was
4 a series of single shots which appeared from the sound
5 to be rifle shots. Eventually I decided to seek shelter
6 in a house at Joseph's place. As I was running towards
7 the house, I saw three men carrying a young man who was
8 shot. I later heard that his name was Michael Bradley.
9 I went over and helped the others to carry him into the
10 first house in Joseph's place."
11 From that account, Mr Hutton, it would appear that
12 when you came out of the car park of the Rossville Flats
13 instead of going right down to the far end of
14 Joseph Place and then coming back, you in fact heard
15 shooting as you were standing by what is described as
16 "the hexagonal play court of Joseph's place", which is
17 probably better known as the Threepenny Bits; do you
18 think that may be right, that you came out to the
19 Threepenny Bits and heard shooting when you were there?
20 A. I cannot, I just cannot remember now.
21 Q. It is possible, is it, given that that is what you said
22 in the statement that you made at the time?
23 A. (Pause).
24 Q. Do you think that is a possibility? We all recognise
25 the difficulties of recalling events 30 years later, but
1 I am simply seeking to establish whether you think that
2 is a possibility as to what in fact happened?
3 A. Yes, it is possible, yes.
4 Q. If we go to paragraph 7 of your statement to this
5 Inquiry at AH105.2, you describe coming out of the house
6 where you had taken Mr Bradley and seeing people all
7 over the place panicking and you say that you started
8 heading back north towards the Rossville Flats and when
9 you got to about point H on the map, level with the
10 second from the end house at the north of Joseph Place,
11 again you heard "bing bing"; did you have any idea where
12 those shots were coming from?
13 A. I have changed that statement. I was not in the second
14 or third house, I was in the first house, I was never in
15 the second and third house.
16 Q. Leaving aside the question of which house it was for the
17 moment, do you remember hearing shooting after you had
18 helped Mr Bradley into one of the houses in Joseph Place
19 and then come out again?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell where that shooting was coming from or
22 not?
23 A. Just seemed the bullets was flying past us, I am not
24 sure.
25 Q. Can you help us, Mr Hutton: do you now have
1 a recollection of being at different stages in two
2 different houses in Joseph Place or do you believe you
3 were only in fact in one house?
4 A. Just in one, the one house.
5 Q. Just one house?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you remember whether you came out of the house
8 and went back into it or did you just go in --
9 A. No, I came out.
10 Q. -- once?
11 A. Once the priest came in, I just walked out.
12 Q. When the priest came in you walked out?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you then go back into the same house a bit later on?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Again if we look at what you said at the time it may
17 help perhaps to clarify it, AH105.8. What you have said
18 in this statement, is this, beginning with my arrow:
19 "Shortly after I had taken the shot man [that is
20 Michael Bradley] into the house, the shooting began
21 again and I lay on the floor of the living room of the
22 house. These shots were the same sound as those I had
23 previously heard. Then the shooting stopped again.
24 I went to the door of the house and opened it and let
25 a friend, Samuel Kelly, into the house. Then the
1 shooting started again and we both went and lay on the
2 living room floor. The shooting stopped a few seconds
3 later and I went to the window of the living room and
4 looked out."
5 Pausing there, do you have a recollection of being
6 separated from Mr Kelly for a time and then him coming
7 to join you in the house in Joseph Place or do you not
8 remember that?
9 A. No, Sam was with me all the time.
10 Q. He was with you all the time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But whether you went out of the house and then back in
13 or whether you just went to the door to let Mr Kelly in,
14 the only house you were in, you now think was the one at
15 the north end of Joseph's Place?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we go to paragraphs 8 and 9 on AH105.2, you say that
18 after a while you crawled to the window in the living
19 room which looked northwest towards Glenfada Park and
20 the rubble barricade. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can we look at photograph P322 to see if we can identify
23 the window from which you were looking. This is the
24 photograph I showed you a little earlier, but it shows
25 the north end of Joseph's Place here and the
1 Rossville Flats are over to the left. So the house I am
2 pointing to would have been the northern-most house in
3 Joseph Place. (Indicating).
4 Are you able to identify the window that you were
5 looking out of?
6 A. Well, it is, it is the window of the house, the house
7 that I was in.
8 Q. Was it a ground floor window or a window on an upper
9 floor?
10 A. A ground floor.
11 Q. If we take my arrows off do you think it would have been
12 that window there? (Marked with blue arrow - AH105.11).
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can we save that, please, as AH105.10. When we have
15 done that, can we go back to paragraphs 8 and 9 on
16 AH105.2. You tell us here, Mr Hutton, that as you
17 looked out of that window your attention was caught by
18 a:
19 "... wee soldier sticking his head out around the
20 corner at the southwestern corner of the east block of
21 Glenfada Park North, marked point J" we will look at
22 that in a moment. You say that "he popped his head
23 around the corner, then withdrew."
24 In paragraph 9 you say:
25 "Suddenly this small soldier moved out from the
1 corner, about three feet, got down on to his right knee,
2 raised his rifle and fired a shot towards the gap
3 between Block 2 of the Rossville Flats and the northern
4 end of Joseph Place. He then withdrew."
5 Can we look at AH105.7, please. Here is the
6 northern-most house in Joseph's Place where you were and
7 there is point J, the corner round which you remember
8 the soldier appearing. First of all, you have referred
9 to this soldier as "a wee soldier"; do you have any idea
10 how tall he was?
11 A. (Pause). From where I was looking at, he looked small,
12 you know.
13 Q. But in terms of feet and inches is it too difficult to
14 remember or can you give us an idea of how tall he
15 actually was?
16 A. I could say he was five six, five seven, I am not quite
17 sure.
18 Q. You have described him looking round the corner and then
19 withdrawing and then coming back and shooting?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that right? Do you remember, did he just look round
22 the corner and withdraw once before he came out and
23 fired his first shot?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When he looked out that first time when you first saw
1 him, do you remember whether there were any civilians in
2 the area of the gable end where the soldier was?
3 A. There were civilians before he, before he was -- before
4 he put his head round, there was civilians arrested on
5 that gable end.
6 Q. Were the civilians who had been arrested still there
7 when he looked round the corner or had they been taken
8 away?
9 A. Taken away.
10 Q. When you looked out round that corner for the first
11 time, do you remember whether there were any other
12 soldiers anywhere near him?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you mean no, you do not remember or no, there were
15 not any other soldiers?
16 A. No, when he went out to shoot he was on his own.
17 Q. Completely on his own, was he?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did he appear to take aim before he fired the shot?
20 A. Aye, he looked that, as if he was, aye.
21 Q. Did you see at whom or at what he was aiming?
22 A. Well, where I was looking at, I thought he was shooting
23 at a young lad across from -- on block 1 of
24 Rossville Flats gable. I am not quite sure, you know.
25 I am not sure. It looked that way, but I am not, I am
1 definitely not sure.
2 Q. You have said something about that in the statement that
3 you made in 1972. Perhaps we will come to that in
4 a moment, but can I ask you this: do you now have
5 a recollection of there being somebody other than
6 Mr McGuigan who was shot in the area of the gable end of
7 block 1 of the Rossville Flats near the telephone kiosk?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You do not. But you have referred to a young lad across
10 from the Rossville Flats gable. Can you give any more
11 of a description of that person?
12 A. He was a young lad and he had denim jeans and coat on
13 him.
14 Q. Did you see whether the young lad with the denim jeans
15 and coat was actually shot or did you just think the
16 soldier was aiming at him?
17 A. I am not sure, I am not sure.
18 Q. Where was the young lad with denim jeans in relation to
19 the telephone kiosk? Perhaps if we look at a photograph
20 it might help. Can we look at P310, please. Mr Hutton
21 this is not a photograph taken on Bloody Sunday, so we
22 can ignore the soldiers standing against the gable wall,
23 but do you see that it shows the area of the telephone
24 kiosk and the gable end of block 1 of the flats?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And Threepenny Bits. Was the young lad in the denim
2 jeans standing somewhere that we can see in this
3 photograph?
4 A. No, he was more to the right of that arrow.
5 Q. More to the right. So that is --
6 A. Towards Rossville Street.
7 Q. Towards Rossville Street. Was he on the same side of
8 Rossville Street as the Rossville Flats or was he on the
9 Glenfada Park side?
10 A. He was on the Rossville Street.
11 Q. On the --
12 A. He was --
13 Q. On this side of Rossville Street or the other side of
14 Rossville Street?
15 A. I do not, I do not get you, could you explain?
16 Q. In this photograph we have block 1 of the
17 Rossville Flats there? (Indicating).
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Rossville Street runs like that up towards
20 William Street? (Indicating).
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What I am asking you is whether the young lad who you
23 saw in the denim jeans was somewhere in the area that we
24 see in this photograph or whether he was over on the
25 other side of Rossville Street, that is to say off the
1 picture to the left?
2 A. No, he was in that area there.
3 Q. Somewhere in this area?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Can you remember where he was in this area: was he out
6 in the open or up against the wall, or what?
7 A. He was out about a couple of feet from, from the gable
8 wall.
9 Q. A couple of feet from the gable wall?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you thought that the soldier, when he fired his
12 first shot, was aiming either at that young man or at
13 someone in his area; is that the position?
14 A. I am not quite sure.
15 Q. You are not sure?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Apart from that young man in the denim jeans --
18 MR TOOHEY: Mr Roxburgh, before you leave that
19 scene: Mr Hutton, could you look to your right, please.
20 Mr Roxburgh has been asking you about the young man and
21 his movements.
22 A. Yes.
23 MR TOOHEY: Just looking at your more recent statement to
24 the Inquiry, the one dated 25th January which is
25 AH105.10, can you just pick that up. You can see it on
1 the screen or in hard copy. Look at paragraph 4. You
2 say:
3 "Finally, in my 1972 statement I recall seeing, from
4 the window at the end house, a young man with fair hair
5 wearing blue denim jeans and a jacket, putting his hands
6 in the air. I have not referred to this in my Eversheds
7 statement, but having seen my 1972 statement, I can say
8 that I now recall seeing this young man. He fell to the
9 ground approximately where I have marked point K on the
10 map ..."
11 Is that the present state of your recollection, or
12 is it something else?
13 A. Yes, he fell to the ground. I seen him falling, when
14 the soldier shot. Whether he just dived for cover, I do
15 not know.
16 MR TOOHEY: I understand that, but you do have
17 a recollection, do you, that he fell to the ground?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 MR TOOHEY: At or about the time the shot was fired?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR TOOHEY: And that shot was fired by a soldier, in what
22 position?
23 A. From the Glenfada and down on his one knee. Whether he
24 was shooting at that lad, I do not know.
25 MR TOOHEY: That is the soldier who got down on one knee
1 whom you have referred to in your statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR ROXBURGH: If we go back to the photograph we had on the
4 screen, P310, please: at the time when that first shot
5 was fired, you have told us about the young man in the
6 denim jeans; do you remember whether there were a lot of
7 other people in the area that we see in this photograph.
8 A. No, I just seen the young lad, I did not see anybody
9 else when I was looking out that window.
10 Q. Does that mean there was nobody else there or does it
11 just mean that you only noticed --
12 A. He was the only one I have seen, yeah.
13 Q. Can you give any idea of the length of time for which
14 the soldier came out of his position of cover; he comes
15 out, fires the shot and then he goes back; how long did
16 that take?
17 A. From, from his first, from shooting his first bullet?
18 Q. Yes. Focus, if you would, on the point when the soldier
19 comes out from cover, fires his shot and then goes back.
20 How long did that process take from when he came out to
21 when he went back?
22 A. I would say about a minute or so, it was not, it was not
23 very long.
24 Q. Is it right that he fired only one shot on that
25 occasion? We will come to the shooting of Mr McGuigan
1 in a moment.
2 A. Yes, just the one.
3 Q. Just the one. I think we should look at what you said
4 in the statement that you made in 1972 at AH105.8. Can
5 we pick it up right at the foot of the page, please.
6 You speak here of noticing about 30 people huddling
7 against the gable wall at the entrance to the car park
8 at Glenfada Park. On the next page you say:
9 "Then three soldiers came round the corner of the
10 gable wall from the direction of the car park. They
11 motioned to the crowd of people to put their hands on
12 their heads and it appeared as if they were placing them
13 under arrest."
14 You have told us this morning that you remember
15 those people being arrested. Do you have a recollection
16 now of the number of soldiers who were involved in
17 arresting those people and taking them away?
18 A. There seemed to be about three, I would recollect.
19 Q. And then you go on to deal with the young man. What you
20 say, is this:
21 "As this crowd was being marched down
22 Rossville Street two soldiers came and took up position
23 at the car park end of the gable wall. I then noticed
24 a young man with fair hair and wearing blue denim jeans
25 and jacket put his hands in the air. He had
1 a handkerchief in his right hand and was waving it. He
2 walked out from near the telephone kiosk at the gable
3 wall of the western block of flats and went towards
4 Glenfada Park. He had only walked about four or five
5 paces when I noticed one of the two soldiers I have
6 mentioned get down on one knee, bring his rifle to the
7 aiming position at his shoulder and fire towards the
8 young man. The young man turned and fell on his back
9 with his head facing down Rossville Street towards
10 William Street."
11 The reference here is to two soldiers coming out and
12 taking up a position at the end of the gable wall. Do
13 you think that may be right, bearing in mind it is what
14 you said just about a month after Bloody Sunday, that
15 there were two soldiers rather than just one?
16 A. Yes, there was two soldiers there, but they went then
17 behind the wall and then the other soldier came out
18 then, on his own. The two soldiers was not standing
19 there when they were shooting, there was only the one.
20 There were two soldiers there at the time, but one of
21 them went behind the wall in the Glenfada car park.
22 Q. Is the position that it is the soldier who fired the
23 shot and one other soldier, or is it three soldiers in
24 all?
25 A. No, I seen two soldiers, but one -- the two soldiers
1 went behind the wall and then, about -- I do not know
2 how long it was, the other, the small soldier popped his
3 head round the corner then on his own.
4 Q. Let us get this straight. First of all you see two
5 soldiers?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Do both of them come out from behind the wall?
8 A. Yeah, and go back in again.
9 Q. Both go back behind the wall?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then one of them comes out?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the one who comes out is the small soldier?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And he fires a shot?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When he comes out to fire the shot, did you see the
18 other soldier at all?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Or was he out of your view?
21 A. I never seen him again.
22 Q. Never saw him again. In this part of the statement that
23 you made at the time you have described the young man
24 with fair hair and blue denim jeans and jacket as
25 walking out from the gable wall of the Rossville Flats
1 towards Glenfada Park. Is that your recollection, that
2 he was walking towards Glenfada Park?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you remember in which direction he was walking?
5 A. He was -- he only walked a few paces just and stopped.
6 Q. You were in Joseph Place; do you remember whether he was
7 walking towards you or away from you or sideways on to
8 you, or can you not recall?
9 A. He was, he walked a few paces out from the gable,
10 straight out from the gable.
11 Q. If he came straight out from the gable he would have
12 been walking very roughly towards you, at any rate more
13 towards you than away from you?
14 A. Yeah, yeah.
15 Q. What you have said here is that the young man turned and
16 fell on his back with his head facing down
17 Rossville Street towards William Street. Can you now
18 remember the way in which he fell?
19 A. I am not quite sure, it is that long ago.
20 Q. At the time did you think that this young man had been
21 hit by a bullet or did you think that he may just have
22 been diving to the ground to take cover?
23 A. That is what I think he was, you know, but I am not
24 sure. I think he was diving, diving for cover.
25 Q. You think he was diving for cover?
1 A. I am not quite sure.
2 Q. Did you see what happened to him after he fell to the
3 ground?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When you came to make your first statement to this
6 Inquiry on 12th February 2000 you did not say anything
7 about this young man in the denim jeans. Do you know
8 why that was; had it just slipped from your mind, or
9 what?
10 A. Yeah, I forgot all that, it just slipped from my mind.
11 Q. Can we move on to the shooting of Mr McGuigan, which you
12 deal with in paragraphs 10 and 11 of your statement at
13 AH105.3. You say in paragraph 10 that you continued to
14 look through the window and a minute or two later you
15 saw Mr McGuigan move out from cover by the telephone box
16 at the southern gable end. You say:
17 "He was hunching over, keeping his head down and
18 waving a white hanky with his right hand. He stepped
19 out in a southwest direction towards point K. He only
20 took two or three steps and I saw the same wee soldier
21 look out again, step out about three feet from the
22 corner of the eastern block of Glenfada Park North, go
23 down on his right knee and shoot his rifle."
24 You say that Mr McGuigan seemed to be hit on the
25 right side of the head "and the force of the bullet spun
1 him so that he was facing towards me" and he fell on to
2 his back. You say:
3 "He span anticlockwise through about 90 degrees and
4 fell with his head pointing towards where I was."
5 In paragraph 11 you tell us that you did not know
6 where Mr McGuigan was going or what he had intended to
7 do and the soldier then disappeared. Can we look,
8 please, at the plan first of all, at AH105.7.
9 You were still in the house in Joseph Place where my
10 blue arrow is. You have described Mr McGuigan as coming
11 out in the direction of point K. So he was coming in
12 roughly that direction; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He was therefore coming, broadly speaking, towards you
15 immediately before he was shot; he had not got very far,
16 but he was coming towards you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When he was shot and when he landed on the ground he
19 landed on his back?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And he landed on his back with his head pointing still
22 approximately towards you; is that right?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Can you help us, Mr Hutton, as to what you mean when you
25 say that "the bullet spun him through 90 degrees"; how
1 was it that he turned?
2 A. Well, my recollection was, when he came out crouching
3 and I am watching him and when he seen, when he looked
4 across -- he looked across and he seen the soldier, he
5 sorta straightened himself up and that is when the
6 soldier hit him. He was standing when he was hit; he
7 was not crouching, he was standing.
8 Q. So he looks round, sees the soldier, straightens himself
9 up?
10 A. Straightens himself up, yes.
11 Q. But is he still looking at the soldier when the shot is
12 fired or has he turned away from the soldier?
13 A. No, he is looking no, well he seems to be looking across
14 Glenfada.
15 Q. Can you remember whether he has turned his whole body
16 round to look at the soldier or whether he has just
17 turned his head and is looking over his shoulder?
18 A. Well, when he was walking out, he was facing the
19 soldier. He came out sideways, which was -- meant that
20 he was facing Glenfada Park.
21 Q. So he comes out sideways?
22 A. Yes, yes, with his hankerchief in his right hand,
23 crouching and then --
24 Q. He is literally walking sideways?
25 A. Sideways, yes.
1 Q. Does that mean that he in fact is watching the soldier
2 all the time as he comes out from the gable end?
3 A. It looked that way, yes.
4 Q. Can you describe how he moved when the bullet hit him?
5 A. He was standing at that time and the bullet hit him on
6 the right side and spun him round and he just fell back
7 on his back.
8 Q. Was it your impression that the bullet had hit the front
9 of his head or the back of his head or the side of his
10 head?
11 A. In the front right-hand side, I will never forget it.
12 Q. When he was hit by the bullet did he just fall straight
13 to the ground or did he stagger around a bit, or --
14 A. No, when he was hit by the bullet, he made a 90-degree,
15 he went round and then fell back. The bullet spun him
16 round, the force of the bullet hit him on the head,
17 turned him.
18 Q. Do you mean he turned round like a corkscrew?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Turning around the axis running through his body from
21 top to bottom, or turned in some other way?
22 A. No, it turned him, it turned him and he fell back, the
23 force of the bullet turned him.
24 Q. Do you understand what I mean when I describe him
25 twisting round like a corkscrew?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that a fair description of the way in which he
3 turned?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you absolutely sure, Mr Hutton, that it was the
6 soldier at that corner of Glenfada Park who shot
7 Mr McGuigan?
8 A. Yes, I will never forget it, it was him.
9 Q. Was there anyone else near the soldier when he fired?
10 A. No, he was on his own again.
11 Q. No other soldiers around?
12 A. Same, same soldier fired the two bullets.
13 Q. Did you see any other civilians or any civilians
14 anywhere near Glenfada Park at the time when this shot
15 was fired?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did the soldier appear to take aim before he fired or
18 not?
19 A. Yes, down on his one knee again, same as he done before.
20 Q. Did you see whether the soldier appeared to watch
21 Mr McGuigan for any period of time before he raised his
22 rifle and fired?
23 A. No, he did not, he did not take much time in lining him
24 up, as they say.
25 Q. Are you sure that it was the same soldier as had fired
1 a little earlier?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From the same position?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How were you able to be sure that it was the same
6 soldier and not another soldier firing from the same
7 place?
8 A. Well, he was the same height, the same physique.
9 Q. Had Mr McGuigan been doing anything before he was shot
10 that could have led that soldier to believe that
11 Mr McGuigan posed a threat to him?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. After Mr McGuigan had been shot, is this right, you and
14 Mr Kelly went out to where he lay and you saw some
15 people throw a blanket over him?
16 A. That was -- that just was not right away, it was
17 probably a little while afterwards, he lay there for
18 some time before they put the blanket on him.
19 Q. Can we look once again at the statement you made at the
20 time at AH105.9. I will pick it up just near the first
21 punched hole where my arrow is. You said this:
22 "I then noticed a middle-aged man, whom I recognised
23 as Bernard McGuigan, come out from behind the telephone
24 kiosk. He was wearing a blue anorak. He was in
25 a crouched position with his hands waving in the air.
1 There appeared to be a hankerchief or rag in his right
2 hand and he was waving this. He started walking towards
3 the body of the young man who had been shot. He was
4 about five or six yards from the body when the soldier
5 I had seen shoot earlier at the young man fired again
6 and Mr McGuigan twisted and fell with his head facing up
7 towards Free Derry Corner. The two soldiers stayed in
8 their positions at Glenfada Park for about five
9 minutes."
10 Do you remember now Mr McGuigan walking towards the
11 body of the young man in denim jeans?
12 A. No, I do not remember that, it is that long, I cannot.
13 Q. We can see that you have in fact described the young man
14 in denim jeans in this part of your 1972 statement as
15 a "young man who had been shot"; does that mean that it
16 was your impression at the time, at any rate, that that
17 young man had been hit by a bullet?
18 A. I was not sure.
19 Q. You were not sure?
20 A. No.
21 Q. On this account it would appear that the soldier who
22 shot Mr McGuigan was with another soldier because you
23 say at the end of the passage I have just read out:
24 "The two soldiers stayed in their positions at
25 Glenfada Park for about five minutes. Do you think that
1 may be the position, that there were in fact two
2 soldiers at or near the gable end of Glenfada Park at
3 the time when Mr McGuigan was shot?
4 A. No, the second soldier came out after Mr McGuigan was
5 shot, came out and the two of them stood there.
6 Q. What did he do when he came out?
7 A. They just stood and looked over just, the two of them.
8 Q. Do you remember now how long they stayed there?
9 A. I am not quite sure because I panicked, I had thought of
10 Barney getting shot dead.
11 Q. Do you remember whether there was any reaction from the
12 people who had been near the telephone kiosk to these
13 two soldiers as they stood there?
14 A. I would not a seen those people, I could not see those
15 people.
16 Q. Do you remember where the soldiers went in the end?
17 A. I am not quite sure. I had moved away then from the
18 window shortly after that.
19 Q. Let us look finally at the last part of this statement
20 beginning seven lines up from the end, where you say:
21 "Then a Saracen came up Rossville Street to the
22 barricade near Glenfada Park and remained there for some
23 five minutes. Then a Knights of Malta ambulance came to
24 the entrance of the High Flats in Rossville Street. The
25 Saracen turned at Glenfada Park and drove down
1 Rossville Street. Then the bodies were put into the
2 ambulance and taken away."
3 Do you remember seeing any of that happen?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You have no recollection of the Saracen arriving?
6 A. I am not quite sure, no.
7 Q. Or the Knights of Malta ambulance?
8 A. Well -- no, I am not quite sure.
9 Q. Do you know whether this is something that you would
10 have seen after you left Joseph Place or is that
11 something you may have seen as you looked out of the
12 window?
13 A. The Saracen and the Knights of Malta?
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. Well, it must have been -- I would have to be at the
16 window, you know.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr Hutton, those are my questions.
18 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD
19 MR MANSFIELD: Mr Hutton, I represent the McGuigan family.
20 I have only one small matter to ask you. If it is too
21 long ago and you cannot remember, then please say so.
22 It is to do with the description you give of Mr McGuigan
23 coming out from the wall near the telephone kiosk
24 sideways.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. He is facing towards Rossville Street as he does that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The question is this: we know from the evidence of those
4 who examined Mr McGuigan that in fact he was shot
5 through the left side of the head; do you follow, at the
6 back, just below the ear.
7 You mentioned this morning, and you demonstrated on
8 your head him being shot on the right side, do you
9 follow?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The question is this: as he came out from the wall --
12 which I accept in a crouching position -- can you
13 remember now that occasionally he looked back? I am
14 actually demonstrating, he was coming out from the wall
15 sideways and he looks back at where he has come from
16 periodically, do you remember anything like that; him
17 looking back as well as across the road?
18 A. I am not sure, I would not, it is too ...
19 Q. In other words, it is when he is looking back towards
20 where he has come from --
21 A. Actually when he was shot he stood up, he was actually
22 facing, he was like that there, the way I am.
23 (Indicating). Standing up, he was not like that or,
24 shot straight across, he was not crouched when he was
25 hit.
1 Q. But exactly which way he was looking at the point at
2 which he was shot?
3 A. At the soldier.
4 Q. I just --
5 A. At Glenfada.
6 Q. What I want to ask you is whether in fact you may be
7 mistaken, that he was actually looking at the soldier as
8 opposed to looking back to where he had come, do you
9 follow?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you think you may be mistaken about that and that is
12 why you thought he was shot on the right instead of the
13 left?
14 A. It could be, but I am not quite sure, but I know he
15 stood and looked at the soldier, you know.
16 Q. I am sorry to have to ask you the detail. Thank you.
17 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
18 MR GLASGOW: Mr Hutton, I am on your left. My name is
19 Glasgow. I have only one matter for you as well.
20 I represent a number of the soldiers. Could I ask you
21 about the statement that you made, two years ago it was
22 now, to the solicitors for this Tribunal. I make
23 absolutely plain, sir, I do not ask the question
24 critically of you, I am sure we all accept the care --
25 we have all noticed the care with which you read that
1 statement with my learned friend Mr Roxburgh and
2 answered the questions which have very properly been
3 asked of you.
4 When you made that statement we all have, the typed
5 statement we all have in front of us, was that
6 a statement made by you volunteering a story or were you
7 answering questions that were put to you in much the
8 same way as Mr Roxburgh did this morning; can you
9 remember how that statement was made?
10 A. The statement for -- that I made --
11 Q. Just two years ago, the typed one you are looking at in
12 front of you now. Do not let me put words in your
13 mouth. Can you remember -- this is not a criticism of
14 you at all, I want to know, can you remember how that
15 rather detailed account came to be given and signed by
16 you?
17 A. Myself.
18 Q. Yes. Do you remember how the statement was taken; was
19 it a process of you --
20 A. Yes, it was me, yes.
21 Q. Volunteering it?
22 A. I volunteered to go and see the Bloody Sunday Tribunal.
23 Q. Yes, and when you got there, were you able to give them
24 the account which they wrote down?
25 A. More or less, yes.
1 Q. Can you remember at all why it was that you forgot about
2 the first man whom you believed that you had seen shot,
3 or was it just you were not asked any questions about
4 him?
5 A. I just totally forgot about him, to be honest with you.
6 Q. Again, I repeat, I am not criticising you at all for
7 that. No questions were asked about that man?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And you forgot about him?
10 A. Yes, I forgot about him.
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Hutton, it is the Chairman speaking to
13 you. If we could go back to that statement at AH105.8,
14 that is the statement you made in 1972, and turn to the
15 next page. That is dated 25th February 1972, as you can
16 see, and it has been witnessed by what appears to be
17 somebody called John Doherty; do you know who he was?
18 A. He was the solicitor I went to make the statement with,
19 John L Doherty.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Do you remember the circumstances in which
21 you were asked to go and make that statement?
22 A. No, I voluntarily went myself, I went --
23 LORD SAVILLE: To Mr Doherty.
24 A. Yes, as a witness.
25 LORD SAVILLE: How did you know that he was the person to go
1 to?
2 A. He was a solicitor taking statements from different,
3 I think from different people.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Roxburgh, can you remind me of the
5 provenance of this document?
6 MR ROXBURGH: I think it may have been, but I am not
7 certain, a document we received from Madden & Finucane,
8 but I may -- someone on my left may be able to correct
9 me about that and I am not certain so we will have to
10 check it.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Harvey, I wonder if we could make
12 inquiries about this because I would like to know the
13 answer, if I may, by lunchtime or soon after; if this
14 statement was provided by Madden & Finucane, if so when
15 it came into their possession, when they provided it to
16 the Inquiry.
17 MR ARTHUR HARVEY: I will do that.
18 MR RICHARD HARVEY: Sir, perhaps I can help. I understand
19 from my instructing solicitor that Mr Doherty was an
20 apprentice solicitor with BW McCloskey, the firm who
21 represented the wounded at the Widgery Inquiry. That is
22 my understanding.
23 MR ROXBURGH: Sir, I have no further questions of this
24 witness.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Hutton, thank you very much indeed for
1 coming here to help us. Thank you.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Thomas McDaid next, is it?
4 MR THOMAS BERNARD McDAID, sworn
5 Questioned by MS McGAHEY
6 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McDaid, if you look to your right you can
7 see who is talking to you. I say this to all the
8 witnesses, I am going to say it to you. I am the
9 Chairman. The questions will in the main come from the
10 barristers. They are the people sitting in front of me.
11 Could I ask you to try and remember to keep yourself
12 pretty close to that microphone in front of you and we
13 will all be able to hear what you have to say.
14 MS McGAHEY: Mr McDaid, do you have with you a copy of the
15 statement that you made to this Inquiry and signed on
16 23rd August 1999?
17 A. Yes, I have.
18 Q. I understand there are two small corrections you would
19 like to make, both to paragraph 2?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That is being highlighted on the screen in front of you
22 at the moment.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You are talking about Mr McGuigan and you say:
25 "I think we may have talked about his decision to
1 stop smoking."
2 A. Correct, yes.
3 Q. The sentence should continue:
4 "He was not smoking at the time."
5 You then go on:
6 "I am not sure if he had a cigarette lighter with
7 him that day or whether he smoked a cigarette. I am not
8 sure what time Barney McGuigan left."
9 The next sentence should be:
10 "he left to visit my mother in the flat above."
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Subject to those two corrections, are the contents of
13 this statement true to the best of your knowledge and
14 belief?
15 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
16 Q. If we could go back to the whole of the first page, you
17 tell us that you lived, in 1972, at 11 Joseph Place,
18 which is the second from the northern-most house in
19 Joseph Place?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You were not on the march?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You were a cousin of Barney McGuigan. As you have told
24 us in paragraph 2, you saw him before he left?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. If we could go on, please, to paragraph 4 you are
2 describing there being in the house with your friend
3 George Devlin?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You tell us in the preceding paragraph that you heard
6 shouting and the noise of crackling and you and George
7 stood on a bed, looked out of a high small window
8 towards block 2 of the Rossville Flats and you saw about
9 ten people at the northwestern corner at the end of
10 block 2 at the point you have marked B.
11 I would like you to look at a photograph, if you
12 would. Could we have P320, please. This is not
13 a photograph taken on the day, but it shows the western
14 end of block 2. You can see Mrs Barr's shop in the
15 middle of the picture. Is this the area in front of
16 which you saw those people?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. From where you were could you see the telephone box that
19 was at the back of block 1?
20 A. Just the side of it, just the side.
21 Q. Could you see the gable end of block 1 and to the left
22 of that telephone box?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were there any people there?
25 A. One or two, I think, I am not sure just.
1 Q. Your recollection is the larger group was in the area
2 that we see in front of Mrs Barr's shop?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please, at
5 paragraph 4 at AM176.1. You say that some of the people
6 in the group were lying on the ground. Did you have any
7 impression that any of those people were injured?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you have any idea why they were lying on the ground?
10 A. On recollection, yes, but at the time, no.
11 Q. What is your recollection now?
12 A. Well, obviously there must have been some sort of
13 shooting or rubber bullets or whatever, but at that
14 point in time I was not aware.
15 Q. You say your attention was drawn to Mr McGuigan, who was
16 standing among that crowd. He was a tall man who stood
17 out. His right hand was raised and he seemed to be
18 holding something white in his hand and trying to get
19 attention.
20 Could you see from whom he was trying to get
21 attention?
22 A. No.
23 Q. At that point in which direction was he facing?
24 A. He seemed to be facing into -- towards Rossville Street,
25 to --
1 Q. You say into Rossville Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From block 2, if one looked straight across you would be
4 looking just about into the entrance of Glenfada Park?
5 A. That would be quite correct, yeah.
6 Q. If you were looking down it would be towards Free Derry
7 Corner?
8 A. No, it would be looking towards Glenfada Park.
9 Q. You then tell us:
10 "He was the only one from the group moving forward.
11 He took approximately 15 to 20 quick steps in
12 a northwest direction from point B" you have marked
13 "towards Rossville Street. He was bent forward and kept
14 his head low. I had no idea what he was doing."
15 Could you see anyone or anything in front of him
16 towards which he might have been walking?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You then tell us you could still hear the crackling
19 noise at that time:
20 "He did not get very far before he suddenly fell
21 forward, face down."
22 At the point again you have marked on a map:
23 "He fell forward in the direction he had been
24 moving."
25 Do you remember seeing him actually come into
1 contact with the ground?
2 A. No, no, I just saw him going down, you know, I am not --
3 no.
4 Q. Do you have an image in your mind of seeing him at any
5 time on the ground?
6 A. Afterwards, afterwards.
7 Q. You tell us later in your statement -- we will come to
8 it -- that he had been covered with a sheet?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you see him at any time before he had been covered
11 with the sheet on the ground?
12 A. I cannot remember, no, I cannot remember.
13 Q. At the time that he fell could you see any soldiers
14 anywhere?
15 A. I remember seeing soldiers, but I am not sure if it was
16 immediately, just one or two seconds afterwards. The
17 main recollection I have is a paratrooper, approximately
18 from maybe 30, 40-foot away, pointing his gun at the
19 window that we were looking out and we just fell to the
20 floor.
21 Q. Did that happen before or after Mr McGuigan fell?
22 A. After.
23 Q. Could we go on in your statement, please, to paragraph 5
24 on AM176.2. You describe here three soldiers running
25 south down Rossville Street and you say that it was very
1 shortly after Mr McGuigan had fallen?
2 A. (Witness nodding).
3 Q. Are those the only soldiers that you remember seeing?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. One soldier was in front. There were two soldiers
6 behind him, in a V shape formation. Then you describe
7 the uniform they were wearing. You say:
8 "The soldier at the head of the group seemed to run
9 southwest down Rossville Street."
10 Is that heading in the direction of Free Derry
11 Corner?
12 A. I think so. As I say, my main recollection is them
13 pointing the rifle towards the window.
14 Q. That is the one soldier, is it not, who turned towards
15 Joseph Place?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You saw two others, the one at the shed you describe
18 running southwest down Rossville Street. Did you see
19 what happened to him?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you see him at any time fire?
22 A. No.
23 Q. A weapon?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you see any soldier at any time fire a weapon?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You then say that the soldier to his right ran west in
3 the direction of Glenfada Park South. Did you see where
4 he went?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Then you describe the soldier on the left running south
7 in the direction of Joseph Place. You have told us you
8 have a recollection of him --
9 A. I have a strong recollection of that, yes.
10 Q. You say he was carrying his rifle across his chest and
11 was looking around. He looked up and saw you and George
12 looking out of the window. He lifted his rifle up to
13 his shoulder and pointed it at you. You got down out of
14 sight. Did you see what happened to him after that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thinking back now, can you give us any idea of how soon
17 it was after Mr McGuigan fell that you saw these
18 soldiers?
19 A. I am sorry, I do not know, I cannot remember.
20 Q. Do you remember seeing any Army vehicles at about that
21 time?
22 A. Later on I think I saw Land Rovers, but where they came
23 from, I do not know. This was much later, you know. As
24 I say, when we dropped down from the window, I did not
25 appear for quite a while after, you know, like, state of
1 shock.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all my questions.
3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McDaid, Mr Hoyt has a question for you.
4 MR HOYT: I wonder if you can help me; you live at 11
5 Joseph Place?
6 A. That is correct, yes.
7 MR HOYT: Can you recall who your neighbour to the north
8 was?
9 A. That would be number 10?
10 MR HOYT: Yes.
11 A. Mr McConnell, Michael.
12 MR HOYT: Mr McConnell.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR HOYT: And to the south?
15 A. Number 12, that would be Mr Brown.
16 MR HOYT: Brown. Thank you very much. That was --
17 A. On that particular day.
18 LORD SAVILLE: Day.
19 A. Yes.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McDaid, thank you very much for coming
21 here to help us, thank you.
22 (The witness withdrew)
23 MS McGAHEY: The next witness is Mrs Patterson, sir.
24 MRS MARGARET MAJELLA PATTERSON, sworn
25 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Patterson, if you look to your right you
2 can see who is talking to you. I am the Chairman and
3 I say this to all the witnesses. The questions will
4 come in the main from the barristers, they are the
5 people sitting in front of me. May I ask you to try and
6 keep pretty close to that microphone in front of you.
7 You can pull it towards you a little bit to make it
8 easier for you because then we will be able to hear what
9 you have to say.
10 MR ROXBURGH: Mrs Patterson, do you have with you a copy of
11 the statement that you made on 14th June 1999?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to the best of
14 your knowledge and belief?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In paragraphs 2 and 3 of your statement you describe
17 what happened at Magilligan the weekend before
18 Bloody Sunday. Can we have the whole of paragraph 3
19 highlighted, please. In the last sentence of
20 paragraph 3 you say:
21 "What I saw at Magilligan was horrific. I remember
22 in particular seeing Paras beating a young girl in the
23 sea."
24 Can you just describe for us, please, briefly what
25 happened in that particular incident of the paratroopers
1 beating the young girl in the sea?
2 A. Well, we were forced off the road at Magilligan down on
3 to the beach and when we got on to the beach the Paras
4 had the beach sealed off with wire, barbed wire fences,
5 right. So we had no other option other than to go right
6 or left, which was over the sand dunes or down towards
7 the water. When we did that, the Paras then attacked us
8 for getting through the barricade to get on to the sand
9 dunes or into the water.
10 Q. Is the position that the attack, as you describe it,
11 took place when the crowd or some of the crowd tried to
12 cross the fence that was running --
13 A. On the beach.
14 Q. Over the beach?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you remember that the tide was out, or at any
17 rate out far enough to mean that some people could walk
18 round the far end of the fence, at the seaward end?
19 A. Yes, yes, there was a space.
20 Q. Was the girl who was beaten --
21 A. Well, I says there a girl, but there was really more
22 than one girl, there was loads, there was loads of
23 people at that time on that part of the water, but there
24 was one girl in particular that he was really savage
25 with, yes.
1 Q. Do you have any detailed recollection of one specific
2 incident or do you just remember a lot of people getting
3 caught up in the violence?
4 A. A lot of people.
5 Q. If we come on, then, to the events of Bloody Sunday
6 itself. You tell us that you joined the march that day
7 after you had been to a funeral in the morning?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. In paragraph 7 you say that you walked with the crowd
10 along the route of the march down towards Westland
11 Street and when you reached Westland Street you remember
12 seeing some "Protectors" sitting on some walls. The
13 "Protectors" were not coming on the march, they were
14 supposed to stay behind and protect Free Derry from the
15 Army coming in. You say they did not have any weapons
16 with them when you saw them.
17 By "Protectors", do you mean members of the IRA?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What do you mean by "Protectors"?
20 A. Well, at that time, the 19 -- well, from 1960 right
21 through to that, 1972, well, when it became Free Derry
22 there was a habit of the British Army coming in on all
23 sides, you know, and there had been a lot of people shot
24 by the British Army, like Cusack and Beatty and all the
25 rest of it.
1 So there was a sort of setup on the estate that
2 (inaudible) and women like us, we used to travel, walk
3 round and night and when we seen the Army coming in
4 through the back roads we banged bin lids and these
5 young fellas would come out, that was probably manning
6 barricades or whatever they were doing and they would
7 sort of stone them or whatever was at hand and beat them
8 back into the fields again.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Patterson, the Chairman again. What
10 Mr Roxburgh asked you was: who were these "Protectors"?
11 A. Just young fellas that lived in the estate, young fellas
12 that lived in the estate in Creggan.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Were they known at the time as "Protectors"?
14 A. No, I just says that at the time, to the girl when
15 I gives my statement. She says was it the IRA and
16 I says, no, it was not the IRA it was just fellas out
17 protecting us at night.
18 LORD SAVILLE: My question is, were they known at the time
19 as "Protectors"?
20 A. No.
21 LORD SAVILLE: When did that word start to be used then?
22 A. I just used it myself.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Your own word?
24 A. My own word, yes, yes.
25 MR ROXBURGH: Mrs Patterson, I wonder if I could ask you to
1 speak a bit more slowly? I gather some people in the
2 room are finding it a little hard to keep up with you.
3 How many of these "Protectors" did you see in
4 Westland Street?
5 A. There were just three or four of them sitting on the
6 wall.
7 Q. Were they just sitting on the wall doing nothing in
8 particular, or --
9 A. Just sitting on the wall watching the march.
10 Q. Were they people who you knew personally?
11 A. I probably knew them then, 30 years ago, but they would
12 have been very young fellas.
13 Q. How did you know they were "Protectors," as you
14 described them?
15 A. Because, as I say, when we banged the bin lids they came
16 out with stones and bottles and that was it.
17 Q. Do you know who organised the "Protectors" or whether
18 anyone organised the "Protectors" into their various
19 activities?
20 A. As I say to you, as -- the estate was like under siege
21 at the time. That is the way we felt anyway.
22 Q. You have said that you would not have called them
23 "Protectors" at the time. How would you have described
24 them at the time?
25 A. Just young fellas that lived in the estate.
1 Q. In the following paragraphs of your statement you
2 describe the soldiers that you saw in William Street and
3 events at barrier 14 and you describe the route that you
4 took into Chamberlain Street and across the wasteground
5 and Rossville Street to the gable end at the southeast
6 corner of Glenfada Park North.
7 Can we look at the plan attached to your statement
8 at AP2.6, please. Because I would like to pick up your
9 account at the point where you reach this gable end.
10 That is point D, where you have marked the position that
11 you reached.
12 Is that where you were when you heard somebody shout
13 that the Army was coming in?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you remember at that stage what sort of number of
16 people there were at that gable end?
17 A. There was, I do not know, 30, 40, standing around
18 smoking and talking.
19 Q. If we look at page AP2.3 and paragraphs 15 to 17 of your
20 statement, you describe what you saw as you looked north
21 up Rossville Street and you explain where you saw the
22 Army vehicles.
23 In paragraph 16 you say that it was at this stage
24 that you first heard shooting. You go on to say this:
25 "I assumed that the shots were rubber bullets.
1 I knew the difference in sound between rubber bullets
2 and live bullets but at the time it did not occur to me
3 that they could be live bullets. I do remember the
4 crack sound of the bullets, which was not like the low
5 thud of a rubber bullet. The shooting I heard was not
6 single shots, but nor did it sound like it was coming
7 from a machine-gun. It was quite heavy and more than
8 just short bursts."
9 If the shooting was not like the sound of rubber
10 bullets and it was not single shots and it did not sound
11 like it was coming from a machine-gun, do you know what
12 sort of shooting it was?
13 A. Well, when we were standing at that wall talking and
14 smoking and generally trying to figure out what was
15 going to happen or what was going to happen and them
16 jeeps came flying in, or tanks whatever they were, the
17 Pigs came in, I sorta stepped out and looked down
18 Rossville Street and I could hear the shooting. But for
19 the life of me I cannot tell you why I did not
20 realise -- it was probably because I could not believe
21 that they were shooting in --
22 Q. You have told us that at the time you assumed that it
23 was rubber bullets?
24 A. I really did, aye.
25 Q. But you also remember, looking back on it, that the
1 bullets had a crack sound, as you have described it?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Is the position that, thinking about it and remembering
4 the crack sound, you now believe that what you heard was
5 not rubber bullets?
6 A. No, no, I know it was not rubber bullets.
7 Q. You know it was not rubber bullets. You have also said
8 it was not single shots?
9 A. No. It was not a single shot.
10 Q. It was not a single shot?
11 A. Mmm.
12 Q. It may have been a large number of single shots?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you have any idea, Mrs Patterson, how soon after the
15 arrival of the Army vehicles in Rossville Street this
16 shooting began? Please say if you cannot remember, I do
17 not want you to guess.
18 A. Well, I would not really be guessing, but it must have
19 been very quick after they did come in. I would not say
20 there was much time or space between them coming in and
21 opening fire.
22 Q. If we go on to paragraphs 18 and 19 at AP2.3, you have
23 told the Tribunal that when you heard the shooting you
24 decided to make a dash for cover and you ran across
25 Rossville Street, your husband ran after you and caught
1 up with you and then when you had got across the street
2 you turned to run towards the entrance to block 1 of the
3 Rossville Flats?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. As you ran across Rossville Street, did you see anyone
6 lying either injured or dead anywhere near the rubble
7 barricade?
8 A. No, whenever I crossed the barricade, the shooting had
9 just started and I had made a dash right across. There
10 was young fellas standing on the barricade, but, no,
11 nobody shot at when I ran, nobody that I seen anyway.
12 Q. What were the young fellows standing on the barricade
13 doing?
14 A. I really cannot remember. Probably stoning, I do not
15 know.
16 Q. Do you remember what sort of number of young fellows
17 were standing on the barricade?
18 A. Ten, 20, something like that, it might not even have
19 been that.
20 Q. Ten or 20 you think?
21 A. It might not have been that.
22 Q. At the time when you left the gable end of Glenfada Park
23 to run across the street, had you seen anybody who had
24 been injured?
25 A. (Witness shaking head). No.
1 Q. In paragraph 19 you say that when you came close to
2 point J on the map you noticed that a young man was
3 running near you?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. There is no need to have it on the screen, if we look at
6 the map, point J is very close to the main entrance to
7 block 1?
8 A. At the door -- aye.
9 Q. That is where you were when you noticed the young man
10 running near you; is that right?
11 A. Yes, or just before that (inaudible) just before the
12 door.
13 Q. Just before the door?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Then you say this:
16 "I think he was also coming south from the direction
17 of the rubble barricade, but it is possible that he
18 might have been running west to east across
19 Rossville Street. He was level with the southwest
20 corner of block 1, just slightly past the door. He was
21 to my right and was a bit further out into
22 Rossville Street than I was. I got the impression that
23 he had caught us up and was just about to overtake us.
24 I then saw him spin round and start to fall to the
25 ground, but I did not see him actually hit the ground.
1 I think he fell forwards."
2 Then you describe what you saw coming out of him and
3 you say that you knew he had been shot by the way he
4 fell, but did not see anything actually hit him and you
5 say what he was wearing and that you remember that he
6 was young and not particularly tall.
7 You have described the young man as spinning round
8 and then falling. At the time when you saw him spin
9 round did you believe that that was the moment at which
10 he had been shot, or is it possible that he had already
11 been shot when you first saw him and ran as far as he
12 could and then collapsed?
13 A. I suppose that is possible too, yes.
14 Q. So you would not be sure one way or the other whether he
15 had already been hit when you first saw him or whether
16 he was hit when he was in your view and then collapsed?
17 A. Well, he was running alongside me like this.
18 (Indicating).
19 Q. When he was running alongside you, though, had you
20 noticed anything unusual about the way that he was
21 running?
22 A. I was not paying much attention to what, I just --
23 Q. Did you notice any sign that he was having difficulty
24 running?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you see in which part of his body he was injured?
2 A. It seemed to have been here. (Indicating).
3 Q. Can you just describe in words which part of the body,
4 because I did not see where you were pointing?
5 A. Round here, here, his chest part.
6 Q. Would you mind standing up for a moment, Mrs Patterson
7 so we can all see where you are pointing?
8 A. Here. (Indicating).
9 Q. The centre of the chest. At the time when he span round
10 and fell, were you aware of the position of any soldiers
11 in Rossville Street?
12 A. (Witness shaking head). No, I had me back, I was
13 running by that time. All I knew is that they were in
14 Rossville Street, at the bottom of it and at the end of
15 the high flats.
16 Q. If we look on to paragraph 20 at the top of the next
17 page you say that you now know that the person in
18 question was Hugh Gilmore?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Then you say:
21 "I do not recognise him from the photograph which is
22 attached to this statement, but the person in the
23 photograph on the ground looks to be in the position
24 where he was when I saw him falling."
25 In fact for some reason there is no photograph
1 attached to your statement?
2 A. There was none, yeah.
3 Q. Let me show you a photograph, P667. This, as you can
4 I am sure see, is a photograph taken from somewhere in
5 the area between the Rossville Flats and Joseph Place,
6 it is looking towards Rossville Street. We can see the
7 gable end of Glenfada Park where you started off and we
8 can see part of the rubble barricade running across
9 Rossville Street and we can see the gable wall of
10 block 1 of the flats and the entrance door that opens on
11 to Rossville Street.
12 If my arrows could be taken off, please. We can
13 also see the body of a young man lying close to the
14 corner where the main door to block 1 was situated. Is
15 that approximately the position in which you remember
16 this young man falling?
17 A. No, it was more here. (Indicating).
18 Q. If we give you control of the screen, can you indicate
19 where you mean by drawing an arrow on the screen.
20 Mrs Patterson, if you put your finger a bit away
21 from where you want to point and then draw an arrow
22 towards where you are indicating.
23 Are you able to describe in words where it was that
24 you saw him fall?
25 A. You see the pole at the end of the flats, the flat door,
1 this pole here, just around this vicinity, slightly past
2 the pole.
3 Q. There is the pole?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Slightly past the pole, you say, so?
6 A. To the right.
7 Q. Slightly to the right of the pole as we look at it in
8 this photograph? (Marked with blue arrow - AP2.7).
9 A. Mmm.
10 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Patterson, the Chairman again: from the
11 point of view of this photographer, would it be just out
12 of sight or can you see the position in this photograph?
13 A. Oh, I can see it.
14 LORD SAVILLE: You can see the position?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 LORD SAVILLE: It is just to the right of the pole; is that
17 right, as we look at the picture it is on the right?
18 A. To the left of the pole looking at it from here.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Is the blue arrow in about the right place?
20 A. Yes, slightly off, aye.
21 MR ROXBURGH: If the blue arrow is in about the right place,
22 then we could save that image as AP2.7.
23 Do you remember, Mrs Patterson, whether the
24 photograph you were shown when you made your statement
25 was this photograph or a different photograph?
1 A. I was not shown this photograph.
2 Q. You were not shown this one?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can we look, please, at P662. Have you seen this
5 photograph before?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recognise anyone in the photograph?
8 A. No.
9 Q. We know that the young man I am pointing to is in fact
10 Hugh Gilmore and he appears to be running towards the
11 door of block 1 of the Rossville Flats. Is that
12 consistent with your recollection of where he was and
13 where he was running?
14 A. Well, we obviously must have been behind him.
15 Q. In paragraphs 21 to 24 of your statement at AP2.4 you
16 explain the path that you took to the area of the
17 telephone kiosk at the south end of block 1 and then
18 along the line of shops on the south side of block 2 of
19 the Rossville Flats and across to the back of
20 Joseph Place and eventually along to St Columb's Wells.
21 One question about that: at the beginning of
22 paragraph 22 you say:
23 "As I was standing near the telephone box, I became
24 aware that shooting was coming towards us from somewhere
25 southeast of us, as well as from the area of
1 Rossville Street, although I am not sure how I became
2 aware of this."
3 Can you remember whether you yourself located
4 shooting that you heard as being somewhere to the
5 southeast or may this just be something that somebody
6 else told you?
7 A. You mean when we were standing at the telephone box?
8 Q. Yes, what I am asking is whether you remember hearing
9 shooting and thinking to yourself "that is coming from
10 somewhere over" -- you probably would not have thought
11 to the southeast, but somewhere over to the direction of
12 Joseph Place or the city walls or whether somebody may
13 just have said to you "that shooting is coming from
14 somewhere over there".
15 A. No, I think I was aware of it myself, that there was
16 shooting coming from somewhere else.
17 Q. If we go then to paragraph 25 you say that when you
18 reached St Columb's Wells you found your father who was
19 concerned about your mother because he did not know
20 where she was?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. You later discovered that your mother had taken Patrick
23 Campbell to hospital?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. So that we know who you are talking about, can you tell
1 us, Mrs Patterson, what your mother's name is or was?
2 A. Kathleen Doherty.
3 Q. Can we have on the screen, please, ED27.6. Is your
4 mother in fact still alive, Mrs Patterson, or not?
5 A. No, no, she is dead.
6 Q. We have here a statement of Kathleen V Doherty, you will
7 see the address at the top of the page; is that your
8 mother?
9 A. Yes, that is her.
10 Q. If we look at it very briefly, she said in this
11 statement, which was made on Bloody Sunday itself, to
12 the RUC, that about 4.15 pm she was standing on the
13 Lecky Road with a group of people and:
14 "Everybody started to shout that the soldiers were
15 shooting. I ran up McKeown's Lane into
16 St Columb's Wells. I could hear gunfire coming from
17 Rossville Street. When I got into St Columb's Wells
18 I heard someone shout that there was a man shot. A man
19 shouted it was Paddy Campbell from 4 Carrickreagh
20 Gardens. A postman who was standing beside me said that
21 as I knew him would I go in the car with him to
22 hospital. I got into the car along with Paddy and the
23 driver, who I know to be Barney McMonagle. We stopped
24 with the Army in Ferguson's Lane and told them what had
25 happened. They brought us to the Army compound at
1 Foyle Road."
2 Is that more or less what your mother told you at
3 the time had happened?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember anything else that your mother told you
6 at any stage about what had happened on that journey
7 with Mr Campbell, apart from what is recorded in this
8 statement?
9 A. No, just that they were taken to the Army barracks under
10 the bridge.
11 Q. Thank you, Mrs Patterson. Those are my questions.
12 Questioned by MS McDERMOTT
13 MS McDERMOTT: Mrs Patterson, I represent the family of
14 Paddy Doherty and I have two things to ask you about,
15 briefly.
16 The first is, you recall, do you not, meeting
17 Paddy Doherty at Magilligan the week before
18 Bloody Sunday?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He was a friend of your husband's, is that not right,
21 although you knew him?
22 A. I knew him, aye.
23 Q. Do you remember speaking to him at Magilligan?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Do you remember what he said to you about what he was
1 doing there, or one of the reasons for his being there?
2 A. Well, his brother was in the Army, I think he was in the
3 Paras and he was there to see if he was going to be
4 there to talk him out of --
5 Q. To talk him --
6 A. To talk him out of the Army, probably.
7 Q. After you heard the shooting you began to dash for
8 cover, is that not right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you went to various locations in an attempt to get
11 cover?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were at one stage at the shops at block 2 of the
14 Rossville Flats?
15 A. Aye, Molly Barr's shop.
16 Q. Sorry?
17 A. Aye, Molly Barr's shop -- shops, aye.
18 Q. Do you remember there being quite a number of people
19 there?
20 A. Yes, lying along the wall, yes.
21 Q. Could you say approximately how many people you think
22 were there?
23 A. I cannot remember, there was just -- we just seemed to
24 be one, you know, like a snake, one in front of the
25 other.
1 Q. And you had thought at one time, had you, that you would
2 get cover there, that that would be a safer place to be
3 than where you were?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And once you were there you eventually ran across to the
6 alleyway behind Joseph Place?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why did you do that?
9 A. Because there was shooting, there was bullets flying up
10 and down the space between the flat -- the shops and the
11 gable walls in the lane at Joseph's Place.
12 Q. Did it become apparent to you you were not safe at the
13 shops?
14 A. Oh, very much so, yes, yes.
15 Q. At block 2?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you see men in the alleyway in Joseph Place?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Signalling people to come over?
20 A. They were, yes, aye.
21 Q. When they thought it was safe?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that what you did then, you made a dash for it?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Across to there. Thank you.
1 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD
2 MR MANSFIELD: I represent some of the families, I just want
3 a few questions about the events before Bloody Sunday.
4 Could you look at paragraph 4, please, in your
5 statement. It is AP2.1, paragraph 4. You will see
6 there you indicate you had been on hundreds of marches
7 before Magilligan and you specify one in October 1968.
8 The hundreds of marches you had been on before, how
9 many of those, approximately, had been in Derry, a large
10 number? I do not want precise figures, but ...
11 A. Most of them.
12 Q. Most of them?
13 A. There was marches being called every day in the week
14 then.
15 Q. On those marches then in Derry you had been on before,
16 had any of the marches you had been on ever been used by
17 the IRA as a cover for shooting at soldiers?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I want to ask you about the previous paragraph,
20 paragraph 3. Today you indicated it was not just in
21 particular the young girl but there were, I think you
22 used the phrase "loads of you" on the beach?
23 A. Aye.
24 Q. And you also used the term that you were "attacked"?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. Could you just describe what the nature of the attack
2 was as you remember it? In other words, what did they
3 do?
4 A. Well, when we got off the buses at Magilligan, we
5 thought we were going to walk on the roads to the camp
6 to protest. As we got off the buses, Ivan Cooper and
7 all, John Hume, they told us that the roads had been
8 closed off and this was only one way to get to the camp
9 was through the beach. So we headed on to the beach and
10 when we got down to the beach we discovered they had
11 that closed off too, it was sealed off by -- so the
12 there was only one way we could get back up into the
13 roads and onto the buses again at Magilligan and that
14 was to either walk over the dunes, and the Army was all
15 up there, or go down towards the sea and they were all
16 down there. So to get past them --
17 Q. What did the soldiers do in the form of attack on you;
18 what did they use; were they shooting weapons at you,
19 were they using batons?
20 A. No, they were not shooting, they were using batons.
21 Q. Batons?
22 A. Batons, yes.
23 Q. By this stage did you know what soldiers they were who
24 were using batons?
25 A. Yes, they were Paras.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
3 MR GLASGOW: Mrs Patterson, my name is Glasgow and
4 I represent many of the soldiers.
5 Just this, you helped my learned friend Mr Mansfield
6 with your experience of previous marches?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. You had known them to finish up with riots, but nothing
9 more serious than that. Had you any experience, either
10 in what you had seen or what you had heard, of any more
11 serious violence than just rioting?
12 A. At marches?
13 Q. Not on marches, any other experience, had you seen or
14 heard shots being exchanged in confrontations with the
15 Army at all, or?
16 A. (Witness shaking head).
17 Q. None at all?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You lived in the Creggan?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you describe that, doubtless accurately, as being
22 almost in a state of siege at the time?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. It was a no-go area?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you describe the young men who you call
2 "Protectors". I make quite plain I am not suggesting
3 they were necessarily in the IRA, they were young men
4 who would come out and protect the no-go areas when you
5 banged the dustbin lids if it looked like the Army or
6 RUC were coming in?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you ever see violence on those occasions when these
9 young men came out and tried to defend the area?
10 A. Stones and bottles, yes.
11 Q. Just stones and bottles?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Had you ever seen any more serious violence on either
14 side; have you ever witnessed or heard exchanges of
15 gunfire on those occasions?
16 A. Probably I did, yes.
17 Q. You probably had?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Again, I do not say this critically at all,
20 Mrs Patterson, I just ask you for the Tribunal: you
21 looked to those young men for protection of the area in
22 which you believed you were living under siege?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you would say that to the best of their ability they
25 did protect your area?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you would not have dreamt of giving evidence against
3 them or identifying them even if asked by the
4 authorities to do so?
5 A. No.
6 Q. No, of course not. On Bloody Sunday when you got to
7 Rossville Street you again very candidly said that you
8 saw about 20 young men standing on the rubble barricade
9 or around the rubble barricade?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Again very candidly you said they were probably stoning?
12 A. Well, I think there is pictures around somewhere that
13 proved they were stoning.
14 Q. I am not criticising; insofar as it is proper for me to
15 say so, I commend your candour. But you believe they
16 were probably stoning because that is what you would
17 have expected, without any criticism, because they were
18 protecting the area?
19 A. (Witness nodding).
20 Q. Doing precisely what they did in the Creggan -- I do not
21 say the same men.
22 A. No, no, no.
23 Q. But they were standing on a barricade at a no-go area,
24 doing their best to protect it?
25 A. Probably, yes.
1 Q. Did you actually see what was being thrown or what they
2 were doing or when you say to the Tribunal honestly
3 "they were probably stoning," is that just because you
4 imagine, perfectly sensibly, that is probably what they
5 were doing?
6 A. No. I was standing at the wall at Glenfada Park.
7 Q. Yes?
8 A. With a number of other people.
9 Q. Yes?
10 A. And you think that I would have been standing -- I had
11 a child three weeks before Bloody Sunday and do you
12 think I would have been standing on a barricade with
13 people throwing nail bombs or anything else?
14 Q. My own question was --
15 A. These young fellas were standing and when the Army came
16 in they were throwing stones.
17 Q. When you say they were probably stoning, all I wanted to
18 know was whether you actually saw them throwing stones
19 or you just sensibly assumed that was --
20 A. No, they were throwing stones. There were some of them
21 throwing -- there were some of them in front of the
22 barricade and some of them at the back of it and they
23 were throwing stones.
24 Q. My last question is this: if in fact you had seen any
25 more sinister activity, if you had seen anything other
1 than stones thrown or if you had seen weapons, you would
2 not have spoken about that any more than you would have
3 spoken about it in the Creggan when the defenders were
4 defending your area, would you?
5 A. Do you mean if I had a seen somebody standing at the
6 barricade shooting?
7 Q. Yes?
8 A. Well, I took an oath, I am telling you the truth, yes,
9 I would.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 Questioned by MR ELIAS
12 MR ELIAS: Could we look at AP2.1, paragraph 7, the
13 paragraph you have been asked some more questions about:
14 "When I got to Westland Street, I remember seeing
15 some 'Protectors' sitting on some walls."
16 That would seem to imply, the "Protectors" sitting
17 on some walls, there were more than three or four of
18 them, would it not, as you were describing here?
19 A. No, that would have been it.
20 Q. That would have been it, would it?
21 A. There was literally hundreds sitting on the wall, but --
22 Q. You say this:
23 "The 'Protectors' were not coming on the march, they
24 were supposed to stay behind and protect Free Derry."
25 That suggests, does it not, someone was giving them
1 that instruction, that was what they were supposed to
2 do?
3 A. It was common knowledge on Bloody Sunday.
4 Q. I understand that. Who was giving the instruction,
5 Mrs Patterson?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. How were they supposed to protect Free Derry? What were
8 they supposed to do? Did you know that, was that common
9 knowledge?
10 A. Well, they would have stayed in the estate and if the
11 Army or the police had a come in, they stoned them.
12 That was it.
13 Q. You say they did not have any weapons with them when you
14 saw them; does that mean you had seen the "Protectors",
15 as you call them, with weapons on previous occasions?
16 A. No, when I made my statement I was asked had they
17 weapons and I says they had no weapons.
18 Q. Had you seen them with weapons on previous occasions?
19 A. Never.
20 Q. May I ask you, if you look, please, quickly at Q3,
21 another plan of the area, if we could enlarge the bottom
22 right-hand quarter, perhaps slightly larger than
23 a quarter, bottom right-hand side. Can you see now,
24 running down almost from the centre of that part of the
25 plan, we see Westland Street running down, Lecky Road
1 and then Rossville Street up to the north; do you see
2 it, with the arrow now just at the bottom end of
3 Westland Street, do you see that?
4 A. Mmm.
5 Q. Are you able to indicate, if we gave you control of the
6 screen, where in Westland Street it was that you saw
7 "Protectors" on the wall?
8 If so, I ask that that arrow be taken away and if
9 you draw your hand from one point towards another, it
10 will draw an arrow, do you see. Could you indicate to
11 us where the "Protectors" were in Westland Street?
12 A. Not Westland Street, the Lone Moor Road, the top of
13 Westland Street.
14 Q. I am just looking at your statement, paragraph 7:
15 "I walked with a crowd along the route of the march
16 down towards Westland Street. When I got to Westland
17 Street, I remember seeing some 'Protectors' sitting on
18 some walls."
19 Was it in Westland Street?
20 A. The top of Westland Street.
21 Q. The top of Westland Street is there for you, is it not,
22 now in the centre of this extract of the plan, do you
23 see? Would you be able to indicate where in Westland
24 Street the "Protectors" were?
25 A. Up here. (Indicating).
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Patterson, it is the Chairman again.
2 A. The bottom of, we call it New Road East Way.
3 MR ELIAS: Somewhere near the junction of Lone Moor Road --
4 A. And East Way.
5 Q. And East Way?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That is where you saw the three or four, was it?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. I do not know with that description, sir, whether the --
10 LORD SAVILLE: I think it makes sense.
11 Mrs Patterson, I understand you to say it was
12 somewhere in the area of really the junction between
13 Lone Moor Road, Westland Street and East Way. These
14 three streets come together, if you look.
15 A. Yes.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Am I right in thinking that, somewhere in
17 that area?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR ELIAS: With that description, I do not think it needs to
20 be saved.
21 LORD SAVILLE: I think not.
22 MR ROXBURGH: Sir, I have no further questions, thank you.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Patterson, the Chairman again. Thank you
24 very much indeed for coming here to give evidence to
25 this Inquiry.
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 MR ROXBURGH: Before the Tribunal rises, can I deal with the
3 matter of Mr Hutton's 1972 statement. We have made some
4 enquiries and the position appears to be as
5 follows: Mr Hutton made his first statement to this
6 Inquiry on 12th February 2000. At that stage the 1972
7 statement was not put to him. It appears that the 1972
8 statement was obtained by the Inquiry, not from Madden &
9 Finucane but from the Public Record Office of
10 Northern Ireland, where it may perhaps, I am not sure,
11 have been deposited by Mr Doherty, who took it, or by
12 Mr Napier.
13 The 1972 statement was then placed in bundle A on
14 19th July 2000, but under reference AH96, in other
15 words, not under the same reference as Mr Hutton's
16 Eversheds statement.
17 In September 2000 it was realised that the two
18 statements related to the same witness and the document
19 with reference AH96 was removed and subsequently
20 reinserted with the correct reference and in December of
21 2001, Mr Hutton was re-interviewed so that he could be
22 asked about the 1972 statement, and that is what led to
23 the making of his supplementary statement to this
24 Inquiry on 25th January this year.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you. Anything you wanted to add to
1 that, Mr Harvey?
2 MR ARTHUR HARVEY: Other than that entirely accords with the
3 enquiry I have made. In fact it would also appear that
4 notice of this statement is contained in some of the
5 original documents with the Saville pin numbers, so it
6 would appear, it is just a matter of failure to classify
7 according to the name of the individual.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you for making the enquiries. We will
9 rise and start again at quarter to 1. Before we do, can
10 I lay out the procedures for next week when we move into
11 screened witnesses: we would ask the lawyers, by which
12 I mean only qualified barristers and solicitors, to be
13 in this hall, please, by 9.15 am.
14 The witness will then be brought into his screened
15 position, after which the public and the families can
16 take their seats. When the witness is finished the
17 public and the family galleries will be cleared and the
18 witness will then leave the witness box. We envisage
19 dealing in this way with every witness. It will mean
20 that between witnesses there will be a gap of some
21 minutes while we reorganise ourselves.
22 Does everyone understand what I have said?
23 MR RICHARD HARVEY: Sir, I am sorry, you asked does everyone
24 understand; my understanding is that it is only one
25 witness who is seeking screening?
1 LORD SAVILLE: Is that the position for Monday?
2 MR ROXBURGH: Yes, it is the position for Monday.
3 LORD SAVILLE: I thought, mistakenly, there might be more
4 than one.
5 MR ROXBURGH: Not on Monday.
6 LORD SAVILLE: I think there will still be likely to be
7 a gap after the screened witness simply so we can
8 reorganise the hall.
9 MR ROXBURGH: There is just the one screened witness in the
10 two weeks of police witnesses coming up. There may be
11 others at a later stage.
12 LORD SAVILLE: I had no particular knowledge to make me
13 think otherwise, I just assumed there was more than one.
14 That is how we deal with what we hope will be the first
15 witness on Monday morning.
16 (12.10 pm)
17 (The luncheon adjournment)
18 (12.50 pm)
19 LORD SAVILLE: Before we start again, I want to say a a word
20 about timetable. We are discussing this at the moment
21 and it is an ongoing discussion, I thought I better give
22 advance warning that there is a prospect, I put it no
23 higher than that, a prospect we stop on Thursday,
24 14th March and restart on Monday, 15th April. That is
25 not definite, but I thought I would let everybody know
1 as soon as possible because it looks at the moment as
2 though that might be a better way, more efficiently, to
3 deal with witnesses than our existing programme.
4 As I said last week, as soon as we have any further
5 specific news I will give it to you all, but please
6 regard that only as a prospect and certainly not
7 a certainty at the moment. I would hope some time
8 during next week we will be able to go firm on dates and
9 I will come back to the matter then.
10 MR TONY WILLIAM QUIGLEY, sworn
11 Questioned by MR RAWAT
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Quigley, if you look across, I can see you
13 already doing so, you can see that it is me, the
14 Chairman, talking to you. I say this to all the
15 witnesses: the questions will come in the main from the
16 barristers, who are the people sitting in front of me.
17 Could I ask you to try and remember to keep pretty close
18 to that microphone in front of you so that we are all
19 able to hear what you have to say. You can move the
20 microphone towards you, if you like, to make it more
21 comfortable.
22 MR RAWAT: Mr Quigley, do you have with you a copy of your
23 statement to this Inquiry, which you signed on
24 10th March 1999?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are the contents of your statement true to the best of
2 your knowledge and belief?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We have all had the chance to read your statement. What
5 I would like to do today is just to ask you some
6 additional questions. If we could please highlight
7 paragraphs 5 and 6 on this page.
8 In these paragraphs you are describing the initial
9 stage of your recollection of being on the march. You
10 say in the first line of paragraph 5 that you were at
11 the rear of the march.
12 If we look at paragraph 6, what you describe there
13 is reaching a point that you have marked as point "B" on
14 your map, and that is roughly a point just opposite the
15 junction of William Street and Abbey Street, and you
16 heard two shots which you believed were fired from the
17 derelict buildings next to where Richardson's factory
18 had once stood. You assumed that they were rubber
19 bullets, but you then heard a commotion on land that was
20 to your south and you crossed over, having heard two
21 boys had been shot. As we see in the second half of
22 this paragraph, you say you took a brief look at them:
23 "They were wearing ordinary dark clothes and
24 appeared to be about 18 to 20 years of age."
25 You cannot remember their build or any details about
1 their clothing, and you did not see their wounds. The
2 paragraph continues that because there was already
3 a large crowd of people gathered around them, you moved
4 on.
5 You have marked, if we could look at your map,
6 please, AQ7.5, the position of these two boys just at
7 "C" and "D" here on a piece of wasteground. Can I show
8 you a photograph now, P201, please? This shows us
9 William Street, we are heading down towards the junction
10 of Rossville Street here and you have the wasteground
11 here where Richardson's factory stood. You can see
12 a derelict building there. You would have been roughly
13 about here when you heard the shots.
14 You told us you were at the back of the crowd. When
15 you heard those shots, was there still a good portion of
16 the march moving down William Street ahead of you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you aware at all of any kind of rioting going on in
19 the area of this wasteground where Richie's factory once
20 stood --
21 A. No.
22 Q. -- the wasteground you marked on your map as where you
23 saw the two lads is this wasteground we have been
24 calling the Abbey Street wasteground? Are you sure in
25 your recollection that the two boys you came across were
1 on that piece of wasteground?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were they somewhere in the middle of the wasteground?
4 A. More near the front of the wasteground.
5 Q. So closer to William Street?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But you did not actually see any injuries on these two
8 young men, did you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. We know that Damien Donaghy, who was 16 at the time of
11 Bloody Sunday, and John Johnston, who was 52, were both
12 shot and injured on Bloody Sunday and in the area that
13 we see in the photograph. In fact the bulk of the
14 evidence tends to suggest that these two men were shot
15 or injured on this piece of wasteground, so closer to
16 the junction with Rossville Street on a piece of
17 wasteground we have been calling the laundry
18 wasteground. Is there any possibility you could be
19 mistaken about the ages of the two men you came across?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You said they were 18 to 20?
22 A. I just had a quick look.
23 Q. Is there any possibility that you might have been
24 mistaken as to which wasteground they were on?
25 A. Yes, the two of them are more like the same as on the
1 map.
2 Q. If we could remove the arrows. So that I am clear as to
3 your last answer, your recollection is still very much
4 that they were on this piece of wasteground?
5 A. The two of them looked the same to me and it could be
6 any one of the two of them, but looking at it where the
7 wasteground is, I would say it was -- could have been
8 any of the two of them, probably the second one.
9 LORD SAVILLE: It is the Chairman speaking, I wonder could
10 Mr Quigley help us by pointing on this map, if you are
11 able to, to the derelict building from which you think
12 these shots were fired. Do you think you would be able
13 to do that? If you are in difficulty tell us, but ...
14 A. I think this building here, the shots came from.
15 LORD SAVILLE: The one with the nine windows.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR RAWAT: If you are given a different colour, if you could
18 mark now which wasteground you think you saw these two
19 men on.
20 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure, if I understand Mr Quigley
21 correctly, he can necessarily do that. If I have
22 understood you correctly, Mr Quigley, tell me if I have
23 not, you think it was quite possible it was the other
24 wasteground, the one nearer to Rossville Street because
25 they look alike, you could not really say which one it
1 was; is that a fair summary of your evidence?
2 A. It is, yes.
3 MR RAWAT: We do not need to save this image. For the
4 transcript, if I could record that the derelict building
5 from which Mr Quigley thought shots came is the
6 nine-windowed building we can see on P201.
7 If we move on, please, to your map, AQ7.5. In your
8 statement, Mr Quigley, you describe that you reached
9 down William Street, but then you ran through a laneway
10 here onto the wasteground and then south. You describe
11 bumping into Father Daly, but then you continued on and
12 you made your way through the gap that we see between
13 blocks 1 and 2?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If you want to refer to it, we are looking now at
16 paragraphs 14 to 16, which is on AQ7.3, but if we keep
17 the map on for a moment. What you describe reaching
18 after you got through the gap was a low wall, which you
19 have marked as running parallel to block 2; is that
20 right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You describe that there were people crouching behind
23 that wall?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I want to show you a photograph; can I have P209,
1 please? We can see there is the gap between blocks 1
2 and 2 of the Rossville Flats and just slightly off, just
3 here is Joseph Place. This does not show a low wall?
4 A. It was not over that far. As I came through the gap
5 there was a wall just as you come through the gap.
6 Q. Was it in the area of Blocks 1 and 2?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This low wall?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can I have P204, please? Does that help you to pinpoint
11 where this wall was?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If you are given control, could you draw an arrow,
14 please?
15 A. Roughly about there. Excuse me, it could be down about
16 here, just as I come through, just about there.
17 Q. Perhaps I could help you with another photograph, P310.
18 This was not taken on Bloody Sunday itself, but we can
19 see the gap that lies between blocks 1 and 2 of the
20 flats and leads back into the car park. Can you mark
21 where the wall was on that?
22 A. It was further up from the telephone box.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Quigley, the Chairman over here to your
24 right -- I know my voice seems to come from elsewhere --
25 but if we look at this photograph on the screen, on the
1 right-hand side of the photograph you can see two people
2 standing with their back to what in fact is a shop.
3 There were a row of shops down there; do you remember?
4 A. Yes.
5 LORD SAVILLE: Where was this wall in relation to those?
6 A. It was just facing the shops.
7 LORD SAVILLE: How low a wall was it?
8 A. It is about two, maybe three-foot high.
9 MR RAWAT: Let us try another couple of photographs. If we
10 can first of all try P320; that is the parade of shops
11 that are at the base of block 2. Does that help you as
12 to where this low wall was?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can I show you then 323, please? Does that look
15 anything like the low wall?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If we go back to 310, then. Looking at that, would you
18 be able to mark there the position of the low wall or is
19 it off the picture?
20 A. It seemed like this part of it, but it was further on up
21 on that part, that wee wall there, further on up.
22 Q. What you are looking at is part of the Threepenny Bits?
23 LORD SAVILLE: You will remember the Threepenny Bits, do
24 you, Mr Quigley?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR RAWAT: Can I show you EP28.6? This photograph was taken
2 on Bloody Sunday, Mr Quigley. It was taken from block 2
3 of the flats, obviously looking across towards
4 Glenfada Park. It shows the Threepenny Bits in their
5 entirety. Does that help you as to where you were
6 sheltering?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you think you might have been sheltering behind the
9 Threepenny Bits?
10 A. I was behind a wall about two, three-foot high, but that
11 does not help me, but I was behind a small wall.
12 MR TOOHEY: Mr Quigley, would you mind looking to your
13 right, please? What I am about to put to you may be
14 quite a long shot, but we know that as you approached
15 the gap between blocks 1 and 2 before you actually enter
16 the gap on your eastern side there is a low wall in
17 front of block 2, and we have been told that a number of
18 people were sheltering behind that wall. To go up
19 behind that wall, it would have been before you actually
20 passed through the gap. Is it possible that is the wall
21 that you were behind?
22 A. No, I came through the gap and went behind the wall.
23 LORD SAVILLE: There are two low walls in the area; one is
24 Glenfada Park South. Is there not another low wall in
25 front of Joseph Place?
1 MR RAWAT: That is what I was coming on to: is your
2 recollection that it was a straight wall?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can we have P330, please? We are looking towards Free
5 Derry Corner here. You can see, if I could draw an
6 arrow for you, these are the Joseph Place Flats. You
7 can see there are low walls bounding the front gardens
8 of the Joseph Place Flats. If we look at that wall
9 there that I marked with the yellow arrow, that would be
10 parallel to the block 2 flats. Is it possible you were
11 sheltering behind that low wall?
12 A. Possible, yes.
13 Q. I can tell you that from the photographs that would seem
14 to be the only low wall we can see that lies in parallel
15 with block 2 of the flats and is straight. Do you think
16 that is the most likely place where you were sheltering?
17 A. I am not sure.
18 Q. So the best we can put it is that it is possible that
19 you were --
20 A. Possible, yes.
21 Q. -- in the front garden of what would be 11 Joseph Place?
22 LORD SAVILLE: One last try, Mr Quigley, it is the Chairman
23 again, over to your right: as you looked over that low
24 wall, could you see the shops in front of you?
25 A. The shops were behind me.
1 MR RAWAT: The shops were behind you. What we will do,
2 then, if we go back to P204 and give Mr Quigley control,
3 if you could have your map open in front of you,
4 Mr Quigley, AQ7.5. You are quite clear in your
5 recollection that this low wall ran parallel to blocks 1
6 and 2 as you have shown on the map?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you were sheltering behind the low wall and looking
9 back towards blocks 1 and 2, were you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So the shops we showed you earlier in a photograph would
12 have been to your right, according to the map?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Perhaps if we use this photograph: of all the
15 photographs you have seen, is this the one you could
16 best use to mark where this low wall was?
17 A. This photograph I could see is -- can I point?
18 Q. Yes, if you are given control.
19 A. I come through the gap here and seemed to lie up against
20 a wee wall somewhere around here (marked with a blue
21 arrow - AQ7.10).
22 Q. Is the arrow where you want it to be?
23 A. Roughly.
24 LORD SAVILLE: How close were you to the flats themselves?
25 A. I seemed to be very close to the flats.
1 LORD SAVILLE: What sort of distance?
2 A. Oh, a matter of 10 feet, 12 feet.
3 MR RAWAT: The wall was closer to block 2 than to block 1?
4 A. It seemed, like, to run parallel with the two of them,
5 like, it -- as block 1 is that wee bit further, but it
6 seemed, like, more or less run close to the two of them.
7 Q. Perhaps we will save that image and save it as AQ7.10;
8 the blue arrow marks the approximate position of the low
9 wall where Mr Quigley was sheltering, a low wall that
10 ran parallel to blocks 1 and 2.
11 Could I then take you to your statement and to
12 paragraphs 14 to 16, please, on AQ7.3? In paragraph 14
13 you describe the position of the wall and you have
14 marked it on the map. We have been looking at the
15 photographs in relation to its position. What you say
16 in paragraph 15 is that people behind the wall included
17 your brother Brendan and a friend of his Phil
18 McGuinness. You describe at the time that there was
19 shooting going on all the time.
20 If we go on to paragraph 16, you say your view of
21 Rossville Street was restricted by the southern end of
22 block 1 of the Rossville Flats, although you could see
23 the rubble barricade and you could see a boy lying
24 across the middle of the rubble barricade at a position
25 you have marked as "J" on the map?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You say that he appeared to be shot and you remembered
3 that he was young, but you cannot remember what he was
4 wearing, or indeed how he was lying. Can you remember
5 which way this boy's head was pointing?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All you can really remember is that he was lying in the
8 middle of the rubble barricade?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you see any other bodies on the rubble barricade?
11 A. There probably was, but he was the one that stood out
12 from whatever else was going on. Somehow I could see
13 him more than I could see anybody else.
14 Q. Did you see anybody else who was uninjured and at the
15 rubble barricade, anybody else hiding behind the rubble
16 barricade, for example?
17 A. No, it is just that he stood out from the rest or
18 whoever was there, just he stood out in my mind at the
19 time.
20 Q. If we could go to your map, AQ7.5: you describe seeing
21 a group of people sheltering at a point you have marked
22 with the letter "I" just by the gable end of block 1,
23 and you saw Barney McGuigan, who you knew from work,
24 emerge from that group; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When you were looking northwards towards the gable end
2 and the rubble barricade, did you notice any other
3 bodies near the gable end?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did you see at the gable end?
6 A. I seen a body lying at the gable end with a crowd of
7 people round it.
8 Q. Can we have P191 then? The point where you were
9 sheltering would have been off this picture. What we
10 can see is the gable end of block 1 of the flats there
11 and the telephone that stands in front of it.
12 You said a moment ago that you could see a body with
13 people around it; does this remind you of the scene you
14 saw?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were there as many people there when you reached the
17 point where you were sheltering?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were there still that amount of people when you saw
20 Barney McGuigan emerge from the crowd?
21 A. There seemed to be less people there when Barney
22 McGuigan moved out from that crowd.
23 Q. Can you see anybody that you recognise in this
24 photograph?
25 A. I could see the back of Barney McGuigan.
1 Q. If Mr Quigley could be given control, please?
2 A. (Indicating)
3 Q. Could we go back to AQ7.3 and look at paragraph 16
4 again?
5 A. Actually, I am not 100 per cent, but it does look like
6 the back of Barney McGuigan.
7 Q. Other witnesses have confirmed that that is indeed
8 Mr McGuigan. If we deal with what you say about Barney
9 McGuigan: when you first saw him he was standing
10 slightly south of the people sheltering at point "I",
11 that is the gable end of block 1 of the flats. He was
12 walking in a westerly direction as if heading towards
13 the rubble barricade with his hands up.
14 So when you caught sight of Mr McGuigan, he was
15 already moving towards the barricade, was he?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You say that Mr McGuigan had his arms raised; did he
18 have anything in his hands at all that you could see?
19 A. At the time, it happened so quick, with Barney moving
20 out. I did not notice anything in his hands, but he had
21 his hands in the air.
22 Q. You say that you believe that Mr McGuigan knew that the
23 boy at the barricade was shot and was going to tend to
24 him. Were people calling out or shouting out about the
25 young boy at the rubble barricade?
1 A. There was a lot of people shouting at the time and where
2 I was I could not exactly hear what they were saying.
3 Q. Can you remember anybody crying out for help?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What you say is that Mr McGuigan took three steps in the
6 direction of the barricade before he was shot at
7 a position you have marked as "K" on the attached map.
8 You say you do not know where the shot came from. You
9 saw Barney fall, but you cannot remember how he fell or
10 in which position he lay after being shot, and you
11 believe that he fell with his head pointing towards
12 block 1 of the Rossville Flats and his feet pointing
13 towards Free Derry Corner.
14 The belief as to which way Mr McGuigan's head was
15 pointing is not something that is clear in your mind, is
16 it?
17 A. I would say he was -- his head was pointing more towards
18 block 2 and his feet were kinda pointing towards
19 somewhere facing Free Derry Corner.
20 Q. Have you seen photographs of Mr McGuigan after he had
21 been shot?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What is clear in your recollection and in your mind is
24 that Mr McGuigan was moving towards the rubble barricade
25 when he was shot?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At the time Mr McGuigan was shot -- I will do this with
3 a photograph -- can we have P209, please? Could you see
4 any civilians in the area of the gable end here of
5 Glenfada Park North?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Can you see any soldiers nearby?
8 A. No.
9 Q. If we could move onto the next page on your statement,
10 AQ7.4, please. From the top down and including
11 paragraph 18, please. You explain, Mr Quigley, that
12 after you had seen Mr McGuigan shot you crawled away on
13 your hands and knees, and you eventually reached the
14 Bogside Inn. (You have marked that on your map.) You
15 say in paragraph 18 that when you got to the Bogside Inn
16 there were about 300 people standing around fearful the
17 Army was going to come further into the Bogside. You
18 remember seeing a man walking south down Westland Street
19 towards the Bogside Inn carrying a rifle and the man
20 said he was going to take on the British Army. You
21 describe him as tall, fairly muscular with fair hair,
22 aged between 25 to 30, and dressed in ordinary clothes.
23 People standing near the Bogside Inn protested and
24 told you to go, and they were telling him that he would
25 make matters worse if he fired at the Army and that this
1 was exactly what the Army wanted him to do, and
2 eventually the man melted away into the crowd.
3 The rifle this man was carrying, was he carrying it
4 openly or was he trying to conceal it?
5 A. He was carrying it openly.
6 Q. Did you see anyone else in the area of the Bogside Inn
7 with a weapon?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you at any time see a car come down Westland Street
10 towards the Bogside Inn with men inside who might have
11 had rifles?
12 A. No.
13 Q. He was the only civilian person you saw on that day with
14 a weapon; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know his name at the time of Bloody Sunday?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever learn his name?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you ever seen this man since Bloody Sunday?
21 A. No.
22 Q. One final matter, Mr Quigley, if I may: could you
23 confirm, please, that on 30th September 1977 you were
24 convicted of one count of possessing explosives with
25 intent to endanger life or property, for which you were
1 sentenced to seven years' imprisonment?
2 A. I refuse to answer that question as it happened four
3 years after Bloody Sunday -- five years after
4 Bloody Sunday.
5 Q. Is it right or is it wrong that you were convicted of
6 that offence?
7 A. I was convicted, yeah.
8 Q. It is right. At the same time you were convicted of
9 a second count of possessing explosives under suspicious
10 circumstances, for which you were imprisoned for five
11 years?
12 A. I refuse to discuss that as it does not relate to
13 Bloody Sunday.
14 Q. I am not necessarily wanting to discuss the details of
15 those two offences, I would like you to confirm that
16 those facts are correct.
17 A. They are correct.
18 Q. Can I ask you this: at the time that you were convicted
19 of those offences, which was September 1977, were you
20 a member of the Provisional IRA?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The offences are said to have happened
23 in September 1976; at that time were you a member of the
24 Provisional IRA?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Were you a member of the Provisional IRA at the time of
2 Bloody Sunday, in 1972?
3 A. No.
4 Q. In 1972, at the time of Bloody Sunday, were you involved
5 in the Republican movement at all?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you know or come to know who the senior commanders
8 of the Derry Brigade of the Provisional IRA were at the
9 time of Bloody Sunday?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you, those are all my questions.
12 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
13 MR GLASGOW: Mr Quigley, just one matter: you deal at the
14 end of your statement, at paragraph 18, with a man who
15 you saw after the shooting carrying a firearm; do you
16 know who he was?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you subsequently come to know who he was?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Mr Quigley, if what you say is right about what he did,
21 there is absolutely no reason why he should not come
22 forward and help this Tribunal and tell us that himself,
23 is there?
24 A. It is up to him, I do not know. It is up to that man
25 himself.
1 Questioned by MR ELIAS
2 MR ELIAS: Perhaps I should indicate this question is not
3 connected with anything you have been asked in case
4 people are putting two and two together and getting the
5 wrong answer: do you know, or did you know at the time
6 of Bloody Sunday, a man by the name of Michael Joseph
7 Quigley, who would have been about 19 on Bloody Sunday?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Not a relative of yours?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And not someone that you know, as far as you remember?
12 A. No.
13 MR RAWAT: I have no additional questions, sir.
14 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Quigley, the Chairman again, over to your
15 right, thank you very much for coming here to give
16 evidence.
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 MR RAWAT: If I may say one thing at this point: we would
19 have had Mr McGlinchey, we are actually going to take
20 Mr McGilloway next.
21 MR MARTIN ANTHONY MCGILLOWAY, sworn
22 Questioned by MR RAWAT
23 LORD SAVILLE: If you look across to your right you will see
24 who is talking to you. I am the Chairman, I say this to
25 all the witnesses, Mr McGilloway: the questions will
1 come from the barristers, the people in front of me.
2 Could I ask you to sit closer to that microphone in
3 front of you, and then we will all be able to hear what
4 you have to say?
5 MR RAWAT: Mr McGilloway, do you have with you a copy of
6 your statement that you made to this Inquiry and which
7 you signed on 8th June 1999?
8 A. I have, yes.
9 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to the best of
10 your knowledge and belief?
11 A. They are indeed.
12 Q. We have all had the chance to read your statement, so
13 what I would like to do today is to ask you some
14 additional questions.
15 Could we, please, put up your map, first of all, at
16 263.4? In the statement you made to this Inquiry you
17 describe going down William Street towards barrier 14
18 where there was a riot going on and you frankly say that
19 you wanted to go down there to riot, but when you
20 realised you were not going to be able to riot you and
21 your friends made your way to point "B". That is where
22 you were when people started running down
23 Rossville Street towards Free Derry Corner and Saracens
24 came down Rossville Street.
25 What you say you did was to run south into the car
1 park of the Rossville Flats, as you have marked on the
2 map, and you say in your statement that as you were
3 running the Saracen overtook you and you continued on
4 into the car park of the Rossville Flats.
5 Whilst you were in the car park, that was where you
6 heard live shots for the first time. You say in your
7 statement that they seemed to be single shots as opposed
8 to a machine-gun, although you cannot be sure, and they
9 seemed to be coming from further north up
10 Rossville Street.
11 You have told us that as you were running towards
12 the car park, the Saracen overtook you. Could we remove
13 my arrows, please? Can you recall where the Saracens
14 went when they passed you?
15 A. They came as far as there (indicating).
16 Q. You have marked that the Saracen came as far as the pram
17 ramp that leads into Kells Walk, but can you recall as
18 you ran into the car park of the flats running past
19 a Saracen parked there?
20 A. Well, it was not actually parked. It came past -- as we
21 were running it came past and stopped as we run on
22 through in the back of the flats.
23 Q. But you do not recall seeing a Saracen parked, if
24 I could have control, roughly in the position I am
25 marking with a red arrow?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was it after the Saracen overtook you that you first
3 heard live shots?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In 1972 were you able to identify Army fire?
6 A. Well, as I said in my statement, there was a loud crack,
7 more than a rifle shot, and a thud of a rubber bullet.
8 Q. What you can say is that you could tell the difference
9 between a live shot and a rubber bullet?
10 A. Well, it was more of a crack of a live shot.
11 Q. You have told us the live shot seemed to be coming from
12 further north up Rossville Street; was that where you
13 were hearing the sound of rubber bullets as well?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. If you think about it, did you hear rubber bullets
16 before you heard the live shots, or at the same time?
17 A. Before it.
18 Q. Can we go back to your statement, please, AM236.2,
19 paragraphs 9 to 11? You say in these paragraphs that
20 you made your way through the alleyway between blocks 1
21 and 2 and then went round the corner, and you were
22 standing at a position you have marked as "C", which was
23 just on the corner of block 1 of the Rossville Flats and
24 which allowed you to look onto the rubble barricade, and
25 you saw there Michael McDaid talking to the people
1 around him and on one knee at the rubble barricade.
2 In the time that you saw Michael McDaid, did he move
3 from his position at the barricade at all?
4 A. Not while I seen him, no.
5 Q. At the time when you came upon the rubble barricade, did
6 you see anybody there who appeared to be injured or on
7 the ground?
8 A. Not at that stage, no.
9 Q. If we look at paragraph 10, you say that the people
10 stood around the barricade were a mixture of ages, "but
11 I cannot remember anything else about them."
12 You also say:
13 "People seemed to be gathering stones and preparing
14 to riot in case the Army approached the rubble
15 barricade."
16 Was that people of all ages picking up stones?
17 A. Not people of all ages, no, younger ages. They were
18 about myself.
19 Q. You were 17 at the time?
20 A. 17.
21 Q. You have pointed out on your map a few moments ago that
22 the Saracens you had seen had stopped in the area of
23 Kells Walk. When you were looking onto the rubble
24 barricade, could you still see Army vehicles further
25 north up Rossville Street?
1 A. Not really, as the crowd in front of me was standing on
2 the barrier too and I could not see over it really.
3 I was too far behind it.
4 Q. Apart from stones, did you see anyone in the crowd
5 holding any other kind of weapons?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you see anybody holding sticks of wood?
8 A. No.
9 Q. If we look at paragraph 11, you say that:
10 "Had there not been shooting, I would have rioted at
11 the rubble barricade. However, the shooting started up
12 again."
13 If we get it right, when you arrived and looked on
14 the rubble barricade there was no longer any shooting
15 going on?
16 A. It stopped for a few minutes.
17 Q. When the shooting, as you say in paragraph 11, started
18 up again, you describe that there was panic.
19 When that shooting started up again, where did it
20 seem to be coming from?
21 A. Rossville Street, north of Rossville Street.
22 Q. Closer up towards the junction with William Street?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Could you tell in which direction the shooting was
25 going?
1 A. I could not tell, but obviously it was in towards
2 Rossville Street.
3 Q. Did you see the strike of bullets on the rubble
4 barricade?
5 A. No.
6 Q. When you say "there was panic", what happened to the
7 people on the rubble barricade?
8 A. They all -- everybody started to scatter in different
9 directions, obviously looking for shelter.
10 Q. As you say, you moved away and went back along the front
11 of the Rossville Flats?
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. Just before you moved and when the shooting started
14 again, were you aware of soldiers; could you see any
15 soldiers at all?
16 A. I could not see soldiers because of the sheer volume of
17 people in front of me.
18 Q. Could we go on, please, to the next page, paragraph 13?
19 Before we look at paragraph 13, could we look at your
20 map, please, 236.4? You have marked on the map where
21 you went from the rubble barricade. You moved back
22 down, along block 2 to a point you have marked as "D" on
23 the map.
24 If we look at paragraph 13, you wanted to get into
25 the gap between Blocks 2 and 3, and you ran into the
1 alleyway and ran up the first flight of steps to the
2 position you have marked "D" on the map and huddled
3 there with other people. You say you could hear running
4 and shooting:
5 "The shooting was now stop and start. It did not
6 seem to be close and I did not get the impression that
7 it was coming from the car park."
8 When you got into the alleyway and before you got
9 into that staircase, flight of steps, were there people
10 sheltering in the alleyway itself?
11 A. There were people streaming through the alleyway as well
12 at the same time.
13 Q. Were these people streaming out of the alleyway in the
14 direction of Joseph Place?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. There was nobody running back into the car park?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you got into the alleyway and before you got up the
19 flight of steps, did you see anybody in the alleyway
20 with anything that might have looked like a weapon?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You tell us, if we could now have the whole page,
23 please, you stayed in the stairwell until the shooting
24 was over and you could hear the sound of ambulance
25 sirens, and you then came out. As you say in
1 paragraph 15, you could not actually recall seeing
2 anyone injured. Could we have paragraph 18, please?
3 What you said was that you did not see anyone shot
4 and did not see any bodies:
5 "I did not see any civilian with a gun or any kind
6 of bomb. I did not see any paramilitary and had heard
7 no rumours that the IRA were in the Bogside, although
8 there were Republicans on the march."
9 Can you tell us who are you referring to when you
10 say "Republicans"?
11 A. People that I knew to be Republicans, but did not know
12 if they were actually a member of Sinn Fein or IRA.
13 Q. People who you knew were in the Republican movement?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all my questions.
16 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
17 MR GLASGOW: Mr McGilloway, I am on your left. My name is
18 Glasgow. I represent many of the soldiers. There is
19 one other matter I would ask you to help the Tribunal
20 with. Perhaps you would like look at your map, which we
21 have at AM236.4. When you were running into the car
22 park across the waste ground, Mr McGilloway, you
23 remember being overtaken by --
24 A. Passed --
25 Q. Passed by, a Saracen or more than one?
1 A. One.
2 Q. Just one?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. When you got into the car park you do not recall there
5 being a Saracen or any soldiers there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I can put it to you because we know from lots of people,
8 there is no dispute, if it helps we have a photograph of
9 the position in which one of those Saracens certainly
10 finished up. Perhaps you would look at it, it is P188,
11 having just refreshed your memory of the route you took
12 on your map.
13 That shows, looking in the opposite direction, that
14 you would have been running towards the camera very
15 roughly from the centre of the photograph; do you have
16 your bearings?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. If I could have control. You would have started off
19 coming down Rossville Street here, which is roughly
20 where you were passed, do you remember, by a Saracen and
21 you continued running down here?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Have I got that right?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. You are quite sure that as you came into the car park,
1 wherever the Saracen had gone, it had not got to the
2 position where we see it here?
3 A. I do not recall that.
4 Q. You are sure?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. It was as you were running along that route that we see
7 on this photograph that you heard live fire?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. You are quite sure of that?
10 A. To me it sounded like live fire.
11 Q. The last matter, if we could go back to your statement
12 at AM236.2. Following on from that, doing the best you
13 can to help, could we look at paragraph 8? You describe
14 the fire in paragraph 8 by saying:
15 "They seemed to be single shots as opposed to those
16 fired by a machine-gun, but I am not certain of this as
17 I could hear more than one shot being fired at once."
18 The last witness -- I do not suppose you know
19 Mr Quigley, who you passed coming out?
20 A. No.
21 Q. His description in his statement to the Tribunal that he
22 confirmed this afternoon was there may have been
23 automatic fire, but you could not tell because the
24 firing was so intense; would you agree with that?
25 A. More or less, yes.
1 Q. You would. Thank you very much.
2 MR RAWAT: Can I deal with one additional matter? Could we
3 have P412 on the screen? Mr McGilloway, this is
4 a photograph taken on Bloody Sunday, but taken from the
5 other side of Rossville Street from where you would have
6 been standing from just the pram ramp that leads into
7 Glenfada Park South. We can see the rubble barricade
8 there and people standing around there. I know it is
9 a moment in time, but does that look like the scene that
10 you saw when you --
11 A. Similar, similar.
12 Q. Obviously, it is probably one side of the street --
13 A. (Inaudible) to the opposite side of the street.
14 Q. I will show you another photograph in a moment, but in
15 terms of the numbers of people there is that similar to
16 the numbers of people that you recollect?
17 A. Similar.
18 Q. When you say "similar", would that be all the people
19 that you saw standing at the rubble barricade?
20 A. Sorry, could you explain that again?
21 LORD SAVILLE: I did not understand that either.
22 MR RAWAT: I will try and put it in a better way.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McGilloway, it is the Chairman speaking to
24 you, if you look to your right. If you have this
25 photograph, it is only actually showing half that
1 barricade, is it not?
2 A. That is right.
3 LORD SAVILLE: I think you were over on the other side?
4 A. I was on the other side, yes.
5 LORD SAVILLE: The question I would like you to deal with
6 is: we can see a number of people here. Is your
7 recollection the same sort of number of people extended
8 over to the other side of the barricade?
9 A. (Inaudible) a lot more than that on the other side, yes.
10 LORD SAVILLE: If we had a full picture right across with
11 a similar number of people, that would fit with your
12 recollection?
13 A. That is right.
14 LORD SAVILLE: You were standing rather behind them, if
15 I recollect what you said?
16 MR RAWAT: Can I show you one more photograph, 414? Again,
17 it is taken from a different angle, but it is taken on
18 the day. We can see people there standing around the
19 barricade and looking towards soldiers. There are also
20 some people who seem to be standing either in front or
21 on the rubble barricade. Do you remember people in
22 those sort of positions, in front of the barricade?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was everyone, as far as you recall, were standing behind
25 the rubble barricade?
1 A. Mostly, yes.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McGilloway, could you really see that,
3 because I think you said it was very crowded?
4 A. Sorry?
5 LORD SAVILLE: Could you actually see whether there were
6 people on the William Street side of the barricade?
7 A. Not from where I was, no.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Because of the crowd?
9 A. Because of the crowd.
10 MR RAWAT: I have no further questions.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McGilloway, the Chairman once again.
12 Thank you very much indeed for coming here to help this
13 Inquiry.
14 (Witness withdrew)
15 As I understand it, we have run into a problem with
16 any more witnesses today.
17 MR CLARKE: Yes, an event has arisen in relation to which
18 Mr McGlinchey wishes to take some legal advice.
19 LORD SAVILLE: In that case we will have to stop. We will
20 start at 9.30 on Monday. I would repeat my request,
21 please, for the legal representatives, as I have defined
22 them, to be in their seats by 9.15.
23 MR MANSFIELD: May I raise a procedural matter before next
24 Monday? Sir, as you are aware, we begin a new phase
25 probably, that is the calling of witnesses relating to
1 the RUC. It is a matter I raised on an earlier
2 occasion, namely that, sir, your view is about notices
3 that have to be served in relation to individual
4 witnesses where they may be faced with allegations.
5 I raised it originally on day 142. We have looked
6 up the reference. It is day 142, page 32. Essentially,
7 that was in relation to a witness that I did not
8 represent but my instructing solicitor did and
9 allegations that were put to that witness. On that
10 occasion you indicated that one had to be, I think your
11 words were "fairly practical", about how to approach the
12 matter.
13 In relation to RUC witnesses it may already be
14 clear, certainly to those parties here, the RUC are not
15 always here, that so far as the families I represent are
16 concerned certain suggestions made by some RUC witnesses
17 are not accepted.
18 I give one example, which is likely to arise next
19 Monday with the very first witness to be screened, who
20 is JH13, on page 3. There are one or two examples on
21 his statement relating to his observations about nail
22 bombs and a Thompson sub-machine gun.
23 Well, certainly those two aspects of his evidence
24 are not accepted by the families that I represent and it
25 may be necessary -- I do not know what answers he is
1 going to give -- but, for example, if he says "I have
2 made no mistake whatsoever, I know the difference
3 between a nail bomb and anything else that may be
4 confused with it, and I am saying that there were and
5 then they have ceased", and so on, clearly any questions
6 I would ask -- I cannot speak for others of this
7 witness -- are likely to entail the implication of the
8 direct allegation that he is not telling the truth about
9 that aspect of his evidence.
10 That is an example -- we are quite happy to provide
11 notices in relation to all the witnesses over the
12 ensuing weeks that may fall into that category if you
13 think it desirable. It is just we are not entirely
14 clear whether a general allegation of that kind has to
15 be given when it is clear over the many months that that
16 has been the position with other witnesses.
17 LORD SAVILLE: I follow, Mr Mansfield. I think the starting
18 point has to be the formal ruling we made on the
19 question of allegations, I think in October 1999,
20 requiring three weeks' notice and the rest of it, but
21 the way I think to approach it, with that ruling in
22 mind, to ask oneself the question: would it be unfair to
23 the witness to put something to the witness without
24 giving that witness advance notice so that the witness
25 can prepare to deal with the allegation.
1 The ruling, of course, is intended primarily to deal
2 with allegations of misconduct rather than allegations
3 of not telling the truth or the whole truth in front of
4 this Inquiry.
5 However, as far as the latter is concerned, it
6 really depends on the circumstances. If there is
7 material that it is sought to put to the witness to try
8 and trip the witness up, or to demonstrate that the
9 witness is lying to the Tribunal, then I would have
10 thought in most circumstances that would fall on the
11 side of the line requiring advance notice to the witness
12 so he has a proper opportunity to deal with it.
13 The other side of the line would be those cases
14 where you could question the witness, and indeed suggest
15 to the witness, but it can be no more than a suggestion
16 of course, because you will not have any material or
17 direct material that he is not telling the truth or the
18 whole truth.
19 I think it was in that context we had the discussion
20 on day 142, I think it was. I cannot remember what
21 month of the year it was, Mr Mansfield. That is where
22 there simply is a grey area. Because you do not agree
23 with a witness and because you simply put to the witness
24 that he cannot be right and so on cannot possibly, put
25 at its simplest, always in every circumstance require
1 advanced notice to be given. We are already going to be
2 here for a long time, we would be here forever, there
3 would be no point because it is not necessarily unfair
4 to say to a witness "look, are you sure about this
5 answer? I suggest you are wrong and you are really
6 making this up because you have a particular point of
7 view".
8 I do not think any of my colleagues, or I would have
9 thought a suggestion like that would necessarily need
10 advanced notice, but if a bigger case than that is being
11 built by way of producing facts that are said to
12 contradict what the witness says or to trip him up in
13 that way, then one has to think very carefully whether
14 it is or is not fair to give the witness advanced notice
15 of that.
16 We are not in the business of this Inquiry of trying
17 to trip up witnesses on the hoof so to speak. It is
18 a cards-on-the-table approach, as I hope we have made
19 clear from the outset. All I can say to Counsel
20 is: when you are preparing your questioning of a witness
21 ask yourself the question "is it fair that this can be
22 put to the witness without advanced notice?", because
23 that is the reason for the advanced notice in the first
24 place.
25 I know that does not answer specific cases and I do
1 not think I can be more specific than that. The
2 particular example you gave to me, if you are going to
3 suggest that he is wrong about this and that his memory
4 is at fault, or indeed if you are going to simply say
5 "I suggest to you you are misleading the Tribunal", then
6 I would have thought that that fell on the side of the
7 line that did not really require advanced notice.
8 If more serious than that and if you are going to
9 put materials to the witness to say "look, for example
10 you say this now, but look at what you said at some
11 other occasion", then I think it ought to be advanced
12 notice.
13 If you have any doubt about it, I would suggest in
14 the first instance -- I am addressing myself to
15 absolutely everybody at the moment -- you have a word
16 with Counsel to the Inquiry and, if necessary, Counsel
17 to the Inquiry can come and talk to the Tribunal.
18 I hope that is slightly helpful. I think, as I said
19 last time, it is impossible to lay down strict rules for
20 every possibility. At the end of the day we want to be
21 fair; we want a cards-on-the-table approach and if there
22 is any line of questioning that we regard as unfair, we
23 will of course stop it, which can only lead to delay on
24 what is already a hugely long Inquiry. I do not know if
25 that is of any assistance?
1 MR MANSFIELD: May I say we are grateful for that.
2 LORD SAVILLE: I hope it is of some little assistance. I am
3 sure this will not happen.
4 Mr Glasgow, did you want to say something along the
5 same lines? I am moving on to a slightly different
6 topic.
7 MR GLASGOW: I was just agreeing, we are grateful as well,
8 and that is the line we have taken. There is a slightly
9 different, and perhaps I should allow my learned friend
10 to finish before I raise it.
11 LORD SAVILLE: I think you had finished, Mr Mansfield.
12 Before you do, Mr Glasgow, one other point: I am
13 sure everyone has in mind what I said many weeks ago,
14 about the dangers of repetitive questioning on the same
15 subject matter. I am bound to say I thought Mr Glasgow,
16 and Mr Elias, that we came slightly close to that this
17 morning, but I did not intervene because the questioning
18 did not last very long. Great care must be taken. We
19 are not assisted by same questioning on the same subject
20 matter and where the interests of parties are common,
21 they ought to have a word with each other beforehand to
22 ensure that it does not happen.
23 MR GLASGOW: Sir, we hear that and we will try even harder.
24 Could I mention one very similar topic? It is
25 simply being given notice of any information that is
1 uncovered by this very time-consuming process that my
2 learned friend Mr Clarke so helpfully explained in
3 answer to Mr Elias' question this morning. Where there
4 is information that the Tribunal thinks, in fairness,
5 ought to be disclosed about antecedent material, unless
6 there is any objection, which I failed to spot, I wonder
7 would it be possible for the material to be made
8 available with a little bit more notice because it does
9 enable those who are preparing cross-examination to
10 consider the really very serious question of whether it
11 is necessary to raise these matters at all.
12 LORD SAVILLE: I do understand, Mr Glasgow, but there are
13 difficulties -- Mr Clarke mentioned some of them this
14 morning -- for example Ms McGahey or Mr Roxburgh may
15 find material which then names other people or leads to
16 other lines of Inquiry which in turn may lead, as
17 Mr Clarke told us, to Article 2 considerations; there is
18 then PII, and so on.
19 I can assure you because I know personally that
20 Mr Roxburgh and Ms McGahey have been working very, very
21 hard indeed on this matter. I can also assure you, and
22 indeed everybody else, that the moment we are in
23 a position to produce material which we think is
24 relevant to the hearing of witnesses, or indeed any
25 other aspect of the Inquiry, we shall disclose it.
1 MR GLASGOW: I hope, sir, what I said may be plain that I,
2 as far as it is right, commend the efforts that are
3 being made, and I certainly was not complaining.
4 The sort of example I had in mind -- again I may be
5 completely wrong -- was if there was a certificate of
6 conviction simply of an individual witness which seems
7 to have been served on the Inquiry in March of last
8 year, whether it is possible to be given that, and again
9 there may be very good reason why we are not given it
10 until the day the witness is called, but if it is
11 possible to be given it slightly earlier, it does enable
12 those of us, I am sure on all sides, to consider the
13 really quite serious question: is it necessary, from our
14 point of view, to refer to it at all? That is all,
15 thank you.
16 LORD SAVILLE: I bear in mind what you say. I repeat, there
17 are these problems and it is going to be some time yet,
18 I am afraid, until all the security material has been
19 considered. Convictions may stand on a slightly
20 different footing. Again we have to look at those, the
21 Tribunal itself, to make up its mind whether or not they
22 regard them as being any way relevant, on the
23 credibility side at least, and that again takes time for
24 the system to work through. We will do our best,
25 Mr Glasgow, and continue to try ...
1 MR GLASGOW: I accept all that, sir, and so will we.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, is there anything else you wanted
3 to raise this afternoon?
4 MR CLARKE: No, I do not think so.
5 LORD SAVILLE: We will start again at 9.30 again on Monday
6 morning, please.
7 (2.00 pm)
8 (Proceedings adjourned until
9 Monday, 4th February 2002 at 9.30 am)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 MR JOHN HUTTON, sworn ........................ 14
4 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH .................... 14
5 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD ................... 55
6 Questioned by MR GLASGOW ..................... 57
7 MR THOMAS BERNARD McDAID, sworn .............. 61
8 Questioned by MS McGAHEY ..................... 61
9 MRS MARGARET MAJELLA PATTERSON, sworn ........ 69
10 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH .................... 69
11 Questioned by MS McDERMOTT ................... 87
12 Questioned by MR GLASGOW ..................... 92
13 Questioned by MR ELIAS ....................... 96
14 MR TONY WILLIAM QUIGLEY, sworn ............... 103
15 Questioned by MR RAWAT ....................... 103
16 Questioned by MR GLASGOW ..................... 122
17 Questioned by MR ELIAS ....................... 123
18 MR MARTIN ANTHONY MCGILLOWAY, sworn .......... 123
19 Questioned by MR RAWAT ....................... 123
20 Questioned by MR GLASGOW ..................... 131
21
22
23
24
25