1 Tuesday, 11th December 2001
2 (9.40 am)
3 MR LIAM McCLOSKEY, sworn
4 Questioned by MR RAWAT
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCloskey, if you look over
6 to your right you can see who is talking to you. I am
7 the Chairman. I say this to everyone. The questions
8 will come from the barristers in front of me. Could
9 you please remember to keep close to that microphone in
10 front of you so we can all hear what you have to say.
11 MR RAWAT: Mr McCloskey, do you have with you
12 a copy of your statement to this Inquiry?
13 A. I have.
14 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
15 the best of your knowledge and belief?
16 A. They are.
17 Q. We have all had the opportunity to read your
18 statement and today I want to ask you questions about
19 some parts of it.
20 If we could start off, please, by putting the
21 map attached to your statement up on the screen, it is
22 at AM117.8.
23 In the first part of your statement you
24 describe being on the march from the beginning and
25 going down to the eastern end of William Street where
1 there was a riot and you describe CS gas being used at
2 that point, but you then subsequently left at what must
3 have been quite an early stage and made your way up to
4 the Creggan?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. But you later came back down into the Bogside
7 with friends that you had met outside St Joseph school,
8 the Creggan Heights and the reason was because you
9 thought live rounds were being fired?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What you did was to come down and make your
12 way into Glenfada Park South and that is where you met
13 someone you name as John Kerry, who told you then that
14 people had been shot and one of the names he told you
15 was Hugh Gilmore, who was a friend of yours?
16 A. Mickey Bridge.
17 Q. Picking it up from that point, I want to keep
18 the map up on the screen, but to assist you,
19 Mr McCloskey, I am taking it from paragraph 24 of your
20 statement now because in that paragraph you describe
21 moving towards the northeast corner of Glenfada Park
22 South and underneath the pram-way or pram ramp you have
23 marked with the number 7 on this map.
24 It was there, when you were positioned at
25 that pram-way, that you looked across and you saw two
1 bodies lying to the south of Block 2 of the
2 Rossville Flats and they were in the approximate
3 positions you have marked with 8 and 9 on the map.
4 When you looked across towards those bodies,
5 were you aware of people sheltering by this gable end
6 of Block 1 of the flats?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What you saw were the two bodies out in the
9 open and alone?
10 A. That is all I seen.
11 Q. Again, if we keep the map on, but we are now
12 on to paragraph 25 and in that paragraph you describe
13 deciding with your friends to come out from the pram
14 ramp and out into the open and that was with the
15 intention to try and get to those two bodies?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. You say that you all stood up and you made
18 your way out in single file with your hands up in the
19 air. You were the first one to go out, were you not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You have marked, as we can see, with a line
22 of dots, the route that you took. You say that when
23 you got to number 10 on the map you looked across and
24 you saw a soldier at number 1, which is near the north
25 end of Block 1 of the Rossville Flats. That is the
1 route you have marked there coming out. (Indicating).
2 How many of you came out from the pram ramp
3 out into the open?
4 A. Three.
5 Q. Three of you?
6 A. (Witness nodding).
7 Q. And all of you had your hands up in the air?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did any of you shout out at all when you saw
10 the soldier?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could we go, please, to paragraphs 25 and 26
13 on AM117.5. We have dealt with paragraph 25 but in
14 paragraph 26 you describe what you recall of the
15 soldier. You say that you remember the soldier quite
16 distinctly. What you say there is that:
17 "He was not wearing a beret but I do remember
18 that his combat clothing had the same sandy-coloured
19 appearance which was characteristic of paratrooper
20 combat clothes. He had a green army scarf tied around
21 his neck. He had short, fair hair."
22 When you say he was not wearing a beret, was
23 he wearing anything on his head?
24 A. No, he was wearing nothing on his head.
25 Q. You would estimate he was about five-foot
1 seven, not very well built but certainly appeared to be
2 very fit, did not have a moustache, but may have been
3 wearing some camouflage paint. He was armed with an
4 SLR rifle, but he was not holding it in a firing
5 position.
6 In the second half of this paragraph you
7 explain that you have seen a video film taken by ITN
8 from Bloody Sunday and that shows soldiers marching
9 civilians east around the northern gable end of
10 Kells Walk and then south under the stairwell at
11 Kells Walk and whilst you cannot be sure that it is the
12 same soldier, there is a soldier with his back facing
13 towards the camera standing in that alleyway who has
14 the same build as the soldier you saw standing at
15 position 11.
16 Am I right to say that you have seen that
17 video again this morning?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. It is video 3. You were able to identify
20 again the soldier you think has the similar build to
21 the one you saw at position 11?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. Can we put up video 3 at nine minutes. Can
24 we have it as a still, please, if that is possible.
25 For the transcript: it is video 3 and it is
1 at nine minutes on the video. We can see in the frame
2 of nine minutes there are three soldiers. There is one
3 in the middle, though, who has a visor on his helmet
4 and the visor is tilted right back and is very
5 visible. That is the soldier you think has the same
6 build as the one you saw?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much. We do not need to mark
9 or save that, it is on the transcript.
10 Can I take you, please, to EP21.1. Here we
11 have Block 2 of the Rossville Flats. Here is the pram
12 ramp that you came out from into the open. When you
13 were there at the pram ramp and emerging out into
14 Rossville Street, could you see any ambulances in
15 Rossville Street at all?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Could you see any people around in
18 Rossville Street?
19 A. Not that I can remember.
20 Q. When you came out and walked out towards the
21 two bodies, were you conscious of any noise at all;
22 could you hear anything?
23 A. I cannot remember.
24 Q. If at that time there had been the firing of
25 rubber bullets, would you have heard that?
1 A. I would have, yes.
2 Q. Do you recall hearing rubber bullets at the
3 time you came out from under the pram ramp?
4 A. When I came out something -- it was not --
5 something hit the wall behind me.
6 Q. I think you deal with that in paragraph 27.
7 We will come to that, I was thinking of the time
8 before. What you describe at paragraph 27 is hearing
9 the sound of a rubber bullet and then some live shots,
10 but I want to take you back slightly to when you first
11 emerged out with the idea of going to those two
12 bodies. Are we to take it that at that time you could
13 not hear any live fire?
14 A. I just -- I could not remember now, at the
15 present moment.
16 Q. If there had been the noise of rubber bullets
17 or live gunfire in the area, do you think you would
18 have --
19 A. I would have heard them, yes.
20 Q. Would you have still decided to go out to go
21 to those bodies?
22 A. That particular time, when I moved out along
23 with two friends, there was, as we came past the wall
24 or where the pram ramp was, as we got out more or less
25 into the open, there was a plastic bullet or something
1 hit the wall behind us and as we turn to move back in
2 again, there was three live rounds.
3 Q. We will come back to that in a moment, but
4 sticking to the photograph we have on the screen: we
5 can see the north end of Block 1 of the flats there.
6 Could you see, when you came out into Rossville Street,
7 could you see any army vehicles clustered around the
8 corner of the north end of Block 1?
9 A. The red arrow?
10 Q. Yes, in the area -- in fact, I can make it
11 more specific. Let us remove the red arrow. You see
12 where the point of the now green arrow. (Marked with
13 green arrow). In that area, did you see any army
14 vehicles at all?
15 A. I think it was a Saracen, was there, or a
16 Ferret car.
17 Q. A Ferret car. Do you recall more than one
18 vehicle or just the one vehicle?
19 A. Just the one.
20 Q. Which could have been a Saracen or a Ferret
21 car?
22 A. Could have been.
23 Q. Aside from the soldier that you have
24 described, could you see any other soldiers?
25 A. No.
1 Q. This soldier, was he up close to the corner
2 of Block 1?
3 A. He was standing right at the corner.
4 Q. Right at the corner?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Up against the wall, effectively?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Of the block. Can I take you back to your
9 statement, AM117.5. If we can look at paragraphs 27 to
10 30, please. What you say in paragraph 27 -- this is as
11 you and your two friends were coming out:
12 "Suddenly, I heard the sound of a rubber
13 bullet being fired and, along with the others, turned
14 around to face the way we had come to run for cover.
15 As we did so, I heard the sound of three live shots
16 being fired. I did not know where the shots had come
17 from, but the bullets hit the northern gable end of the
18 eastern block of Glenfada Park South. For some reason,
19 instead of going back to Glenfada Park South, I turned
20 northwest and ran into the car park of Glenfada Park
21 North as shown by the arrows on the attached map."
22 You have marked your route back on the map.
23 Just to look at paragraph 27: you go out and suddenly
24 you hear the sound of a rubber bullet being fired and
25 then these three shots. Are we to take it that before
1 that, as you were going out, you had not heard any
2 gunfire of any kind?
3 A. I had not at that -- when we left that area,
4 the safety of that area and moved into the open, there
5 was no gunfire at that particular time, but as we moved
6 out, that is --
7 Q. Nor had you heard rubber bullets?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You did not actually see the bullets strike
10 the wall, did you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And you did not see, for example, any
13 brickwork or plaster come off the wall?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Let us go to hotspot 65. Mr McCloskey, this
16 is a programme developed for the Inquiry. It shows
17 various panoramas, the Bogside as it was when these
18 photographs were taken, which I think was 1998. There
19 is also a computer-generated representation of the
20 Bogside as it was in 1972.
21 If we go to the artist's panorama, this is
22 the part of the programme that marries those two
23 together. So if I swing round, what you have here is
24 a graphic representation of Block 1 of the
25 Rossville Flats, because obviously they have been
1 knocked down since Bloody Sunday. But as we move
2 round, here is Glenfada Park North, coming round now,
3 we can see the pram ramp under which you were
4 sheltering and out of which you came. Is that the wall
5 that you say was struck by the bullets?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is it that makes you think that the
8 bullets hit that wall?
9 A. They were very close to where we were
10 standing, you know, and what I can remember is just
11 there was three thuds and as far as I knew they were
12 hitting the wall, you know.
13 Q. You heard the sound of three shots and that
14 was the sound of shots hitting masonry, was it?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And it sounded close-by?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can we go, please, to AM117.7. This is
19 a photograph you have marked as showing the car under
20 which you sheltered. It is a photograph we know was
21 taken on Bloody Sunday, taken at an earlier stage than
22 when you were in Glenfada Park North, but you have
23 marked with a circle the car that you took shelter
24 under and you think, as you say in paragraph 28 of your
25 statement, that it may have been a Morris Minor. Do
1 you remember whether the car was up on blocks at all?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Is that no, you do not remember or --
4 A. I do not remember if it was on blocks.
5 Q. And when you went into Glenfada Park North,
6 you can see this gable end here, could you see anybody
7 still standing by or sheltering by that gable end?
8 A. Not that I can remember.
9 Q. Did you see anybody else sheltering in
10 Glenfada Park North?
11 A. No.
12 Q. We can see, for example, that there is some
13 fenced gardens just behind where you would have been
14 sheltering; were you aware of people sheltering in
15 those yards? (Indicating).
16 A. No.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCloskey, it is the
18 Chairman: when you turned into Glenfada Park North,
19 were you on your own? What happened to your friends?
20 A. They went through the exit where the pram
21 ramp was, into Glenfada South.
22 LORD SAVILLE: So you were on your own?
23 A. I was on my own.
24 LORD SAVILLE: I know it is difficult to
25 remember, but was there anybody else around at all at
1 this entrance to Glenfada Park?
2 A. Not that I can remember.
3 LORD SAVILLE: When you say not that you can
4 remember, I am not quite sure what you mean by that,
5 you either mean you simply cannot remember?
6 A. I cannot remember.
7 LORD SAVILLE: Or you have no idea, there
8 could have been people there?
9 A. There could have been people there in that
10 end, entrance to the pram ramp and there could have
11 been people against the gable wall, but I was more or
12 less in a panic, you know, to get in.
13 LORD SAVILLE: What about people behind the
14 cars?
15 A. I cannot remember.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Did you get the feeling you
17 were on your own or -- if you cannot remember, do tell
18 us, we cannot put things in your mouth?
19 A. I cannot remember.
20 MR RAWAT: You may not be able to help with
21 my next question: at any time when you recall
22 sheltering in Glenfada Park North under that car, were
23 you conscious of soldiers being around in Glenfada
24 Park North?
25 A. No.
1 Q. That is no, I was not conscious?
2 A. No, I was not conscious.
3 Q. You have described hearing three shots and it
4 was just after you had got out into the open and just
5 after hearing that rubber bullet fired. Those shots
6 caused you to run back and run into Glenfada Park
7 North. Did firing continue after those three shots, or
8 was that it?
9 A. I cannot remember.
10 Q. Can we go, please, to AM117.5. Looking at
11 paragraph 29 -- let us look at paragraph 28. You
12 describe there the car that you lay under and that you
13 lay parallel with the kerb stone along the front of the
14 car. But in paragraph 29 you say that you lay in that
15 position underneath the car until the shooting had
16 stopped:
17 "... but I cannot say how long this was. It
18 was terrifying. When the shooting stopped and there
19 seemed to be a lull, I got up and went back south to
20 find cover in Glenfada Park South" and you marked the
21 route that you took.
22 Looking at the first two lines of paragraph
23 29, what you say there is that there was shooting when
24 you were under the car. Are we take to it from your
25 answers a moment ago that you cannot really recall
1 shooting any more?
2 A. No, I cannot really recall.
3 Q. The one vivid memory you have is those three
4 shots?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What you also say in paragraph 30 -- and this
7 is in relation to getting back into Glenfada Park South
8 -- where you say:
9 "I talked to other people taking shelter
10 there, trying to discuss how we might be able to
11 escape. As I believed that shots were being fired from
12 the city walls and south down Rossville Street and
13 thought that we would be exposed on the Bog Road,
14 I stayed in Glenfada Park South for about 20 or 30
15 minutes, trying to think of a safe way out."
16 What was it that made you believe that shots
17 were being fired from the city walls?
18 A. From people, people just telling me, you
19 know.
20 Q. Can we go over to the next page, the top of
21 the page down to --
22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCloskey, when you went
23 back into Glenfada Park South, do you remember where
24 you went to, was it back to the pram ramp?
25 A. No, it was inside the square itself.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Do you remember roughly how
2 many other people there were there when you got back
3 into Glenfada Park South?
4 A. I could not actually say not a number, but
5 there was a lot of people in the square, you know,
6 itself.
7 LORD SAVILLE: You have a recollection of
8 a fair number of people in that square?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR RAWAT: Picking up your answers just now
11 to the Chairman, were all of these people just standing
12 in the square in the middle of Glenfada Park South?
13 A. They were mainly sheltering, yes, in the
14 square.
15 Q. Looking at what you say now in this part of
16 your statement: you eventually decided to get out of
17 Glenfada Park South and you went into Abbey Park
18 through the alleyway at the northwest corner of
19 Glenfada Park South and you continued then into Abbey
20 Park. You say:
21 "Immediately in front of me, I saw a crowd of
22 people standing around a man who was lying on the floor
23 in the approximate position marked 12 on the attached
24 plan. He was a heavy man who was older than me,
25 perhaps 30 or 35, but I could not see very much of him
1 because of the people crowded around him. I would
2 estimate that there were about 12 people in the group
3 standing around him. I walked around the group and
4 stood in the position marked 13, looking south towards
5 the group. I remember a priest said a few prayers to
6 the dying man."
7 If we go on to paragraph 31, you say:
8 "All of a sudden three or four shots were
9 fired in my direction, or so it seemed. I could not be
10 sure of the direction from which they came, but as
11 I turned to run away, somebody near me shouted,
12 'They're coming over Abbey Street'. I glanced north
13 and saw some figures coming south along Abbey Street.
14 I believe them to be soldiers. They were in the
15 approximate position marked 14 on the attached map.
16 When I saw them, I did not stop, therefore I did not
17 notice what they were wearing or carrying."
18 Going back to the man that you saw at the
19 approximate position you have marked as 12, can I show
20 you P700, please.
21 This photograph, Mr McCloskey, taken on
22 Bloody Sunday, was taken in Abbey Park. We can see the
23 houses of Abbey Park in the background there, 6, 7 and
24 8 and here are the cobblestones and these steps would
25 lead you up to what I think one witness has called
1 Rogan's Row. I think it is 9, 10 and 11 of Abbey Park.
2 Is this reminiscent of the scene you saw when
3 you came to Abbey Park?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you first came on to that scene, and let
6 us take this up with your map, AM117.8, please,
7 focusing on numbers 12, 13 and 14, when you first came
8 on that scene of a group gathered around the body of
9 this man, were you conscious at all of soldiers being
10 in that area?
11 A. When I came across the man himself?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was anyone in the crowd or the people
15 gathered around this man, was anybody talking about
16 soldiers?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you aware of any other bodies in the
19 area of Abbey Park?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In the time you were standing at 13, were you
22 aware of bodies being carried out from Glenfada Park
23 North?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You have described in paragraph 31 that all
1 of a sudden three or four shots were fired and it
2 seemed they were fired in your direction. Did that
3 cause the crowd to scatter?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where did they go?
6 A. I do not know, I was, I got out of the area
7 as quick as I could.
8 Q. What you say is that you saw some figures
9 coming south along Abbey Street. But looking at what
10 you said in your statement, would it be right to say
11 that you cannot be sure that those people were
12 soldiers?
13 A. Oh, they were soldiers, I am nearly certain
14 they were soldiers, you know.
15 Q. What was it about them that makes you say
16 they were soldiers?
17 A. Well, when I looked over towards the area as
18 far as I could see, I could see the two figures coming
19 and I believed them to be soldiers, you know. I did
20 not wait around.
21 Q. So you saw two figures?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But you did not see what they were wearing,
24 did you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And you did not see whether they were
2 carrying any weapons?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What you did hear was somebody nearby
5 shouting "They're coming over Abbey Street"?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it possible you associated that shout with
8 those figures and so assumed that those two figures
9 were soldiers?
10 A. Well, they could have been okay, you know.
11 Whenever we were standing there and the shots were
12 fired and the person shouted there were soldiers,
13 I looked that way and when I looked that way, more or
14 less there were soldiers, took it that they were
15 soldiers and I cleared then.
16 Q. But it was a matter of tying the words you
17 heard shouted to figures in Abbey Street?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were those figures running towards you or
20 were they stationary?
21 A. Just walking, as far as I remember.
22 Q. Walking in your direction?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were they walking out in the open?
25 A. I cannot remember.
1 Q. Mr McCloskey, those are all my questions.
2 Thank you.
3 Questioned by MR PETER CLARKE
4 MR CLARKE: Mr McCloskey, my name is Clarke.
5 I appear on behalf of a number of soldiers.
6 Two matters, sir, if you would: could you go
7 back to the map, AM117.8, which you marked. Is it
8 possible to rotate it clockwise, 90 degrees. I ask for
9 that, Mr McCloskey, because you put the numbers on that
10 way. Can we highlight the top middle, please. You
11 lived in Waterloo Street at the time?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you indicated on the map that when you
14 were playing football in the morning you noticed some
15 soldiers near your number one?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it right that there was normally a barrier
18 in these sort of circumstances, approximately there
19 where I am putting the blue line? (Indicating).
20 A. I cannot remember.
21 Q. You do not remember?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I hope it does not cause any embarrassment --
24 if it does, do not tell us -- whereabouts in
25 Waterloo Street did you live at that time?
1 A. 16 Waterloo Street.
2 Q. If we activate your screen, sir, could you
3 indicate where you were? If you put your finger on the
4 screen, not where you want to point, and take it to
5 where you want to indicate and then take it off, it
6 actually shows an arrow, sir. Could you show us
7 roughly where you lived, where your house was?
8 A. (Marked with red arrow).
9 Q. So just by the 2 on your map, where you had
10 been playing soccer in the morning?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR TOOHEY: You used the expression "in these
13 circumstances"; do you mean whenever there was a march
14 or did you mean something else?
15 MR CLARKE: Sir, I was going to suggest that
16 when there were barricades put round that area, that
17 was one of the positions in which a barricade was
18 erected.
19 Can I on that topic, sir, I hope it helps,
20 ask that we have a look at EP4.4, just to see if it
21 jogs Mr McCloskey's mind.
22 MR TOOHEY: But it was more your reference to
23 "in these circumstances", I am wondering what you had
24 in mind by that?
25 MR CLARKE: I was going to suggest,
1 Mr McCloskey, does that scene bring back any
2 recollections?
3 A. No.
4 Q. None at all?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you recognise the road at all?
7 A. Waterloo Street.
8 Q. It is Waterloo Street going down towards
9 Waterloo Place?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. We can see the side of the city walls. That,
12 I suggest -- not on many occasions, but when there were
13 barricades around the Bogside at the time of marches --
14 that was one of the places that was barricaded; you
15 have no recurring recollection of that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What I wanted to explore with you is two
18 things: firstly, you left barrier 14 and went down
19 Chamberlain Street and then fled to the Creggan to
20 start with?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can I ask: why did you not go home, why did
23 you not go up High Street?
24 A. Usually, usually -- well, you would probably
25 have had the army in Waterloo Street itself, you see.
1 Q. Right.
2 A. So that is why we headed, you know.
3 Q. Your recollection that morning was of some
4 soldiers appearing to show other soldiers around this
5 area, around Waterloo Street?
6 A. Yes, that is right.
7 Q. And there was in fact, you helpfully tell us
8 in your statement -- we can go to it if necessary --
9 there were actually white lines painted in certain
10 areas of the Bogside for the soldiers' assistance?
11 A. As far as I can remember.
12 Q. Do you happen to remember where they were,
13 the sort of no-go area?
14 A. It was usually the top of Harvey Street and
15 the top of High Street.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, Mr Clarke,
17 sorry to keep interrupting you: can you help me with
18 this photograph, which way are we looking?
19 MR CLARKE: Sir, what we are doing, as
20 I understand it -- could you, Mr McCloskey, it is you
21 giving the evidence, of course, we are looking down the
22 hill towards Waterloo Place, are we not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If I could ask you to bear that image in mind
25 and if we can go to the map, I think I can show you,
1 sir, AM117.8. The photographer is effectively taking
2 the photograph in that direction and, as I understand
3 it, the city wall we can see is approximately there?
4 (Indicating).
5 LORD SAVILLE: It is puzzling me slightly,
6 because we seem to be looking down the hill at a wall.
7 MR CLARKE: Sir, yes, you will recall it is
8 very steep going down in the direction of the arrow.
9 The gate, Butcher's Gate is actually quite high, it is
10 at the top, at the peak of a slope.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Have you marked the wall that
12 the photographer --
13 MR CLARKE: Sir, can I try again.
14 Mr McCloskey, you are the expert, but can you
15 tell me if I am getting this wrong: is the city wall we
16 see in that photograph approximately at the tip of that
17 pink arrow? (Indicating). Do you want to go back to
18 the photograph, because you can help us more than
19 anyone?
20 A. Can you take it back to the photo?
21 Q. Have a look at EP4.4 again. There is the
22 wall on the left-hand side of the photograph and
23 plainly Waterloo Street is curving round to our left as
24 we look at the image; do you remember that hill from
25 your childhood?
1 A. I remember the hill from my childhood, it is
2 just some of the buildings, it is over 30 years ago,
3 some of the buildings seem to be getting a lot of work
4 done to them, you know, so you would not see that wall
5 now.
6 Q. You would not see it now, there is no point
7 going back and having a look?
8 A. No, because there is a JobMart and the bank
9 et cetera, you know.
10 LORD SAVILLE: I think that is what is
11 puzzling me, wandering around the city, because
12 I cannot picture this view in my mind, but that is only
13 in recent times. You reckon we would not be able to
14 see it like this now?
15 A. No, you would not be able to see it now.
16 LORD SAVILLE: I think we can move on,
17 Mr Clarke. It is just, as I say, I was not able to
18 attach this picture to anything that I have seen in the
19 city.
20 MR CLARKE: Mr McCloskey, I think it is in
21 part, is it not, because the hoarding, and I think it
22 looks a bit like corrugated iron and a doorway, is
23 covering up a lot of shop fronts, is it not?
24 A. Yes, that is right.
25 Q. And they are now active shops and the whole
1 area does look different?
2 A. It is all built-up now, yes.
3 LORD SAVILLE: As I say, we can move on.
4 MR CLARKE: On that particular, the only
5 other matter in relation to that topic, if we could go
6 back to the map, AM117.8.
7 Mr McCloskey, I am not asking for exact
8 recollections of course, but do you remember roughly
9 where the white lines were, do you remember, that
10 delineated the safe area?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you be so kind, if we could give you
13 a line rather than an arrow on your screen, could you
14 draw approximately where you remember them being?
15 A. (Marked with blue line - AM117.9).
16 Q. It was the top of Harvey Street, top of
17 High Street?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was there one on Waterloo Street as well or
20 --
21 A. I think there was one in William Street as
22 well.
23 Q. Those were white lines, as far as you
24 understood as a young man, that were to indicate to
25 soldiers not familiar with the area that beyond those
1 white lines was positively dangerous?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. To put it bluntly, if they went over those
4 lines on their own, they were likely to be killed?
5 A. There was a possibility, yes.
6 Q. It was as simple as that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Might we save that as AM117.9.
9 Before Bloody Sunday, that was the state of
10 affairs, was it not? A single, solitary soldier over
11 those lines ran a high risk, to put it bluntly, of
12 being murdered?
13 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
14 Q. Not necessarily by paramilitaries; there was
15 a danger he would get stoned to death, if he got
16 caught?
17 A. Well, as far as I would think anyway, you
18 know, as far as I would think in them days, you know.
19 Q. The second matter, sir, could you help with
20 your recollection of the appearance of the soldier at
21 the corner of Block 1? You understand I am jumping,
22 a completely different topic, sir?
23 Do you remember, when you went out into
24 Rossville Street, you looked north and you saw
25 a soldier at the corner of Block 1?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was he actually hiding at the corner of
3 Block 1 or was he out in the open?
4 A. Sort of half/half.
5 Q. You did not actually see his whole body?
6 A. I would not have seen his whole body, no.
7 Q. Is it fair to say that the soldier you point
8 out in the video, what you are really identifying is
9 the type of build of the soldier?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. That is all one can say, because not least he
12 has a helmet with a visor on it in the video?
13 A. He has the same build as that soldier.
14 Q. But that is all?
15 A. That is all.
16 Questioned by MR RAWAT
17 MR RAWAT: Mr McCloskey, in the time before
18 Bloody Sunday, before 30th January 1972, were you aware
19 in your personal knowledge of a soldier being stoned to
20 death by people in the Bogside?
21 A. No, no, I would not have been, no.
22 Q. Were you aware of a single solitary soldier
23 coming into the Bogside and being injured by stones
24 being thrown by people in the Bogside?
25 A. I cannot remember.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCloskey, it is the
3 Chairman again. Thank you very much indeed for coming
4 here to help us, thank you.
5 (The witness withdrew)
6 MR COYLE: There was one matter perhaps
7 before the witness leaves.
8 Those who instruct me inform me, pertaining
9 to the issue canvassed by Mr Clarke, that the white
10 line that was painted on the streets leading down from
11 Waterloo Street was not to signify danger, it was to be
12 painted on at an earlier juncture to signify a no-go
13 area, by agreement with the military, but not to
14 signify danger as such, but an area beyond which only
15 the Royal Military Police would patrol.
16 Perhaps this witness, if his memory were
17 canvassed on that issue, might be able to assist? We
18 understand that Mr Clarke's -- the view he was pressing
19 upon the witness is perhaps misconceived.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, perhaps you could
21 ask Mr McCloskey, while he is still here, whether he
22 could help at all
23 Questioned by MR COYLE
24 MR COYLE: Mr McCloskey, my name is Coyle,
25 I appear for the family of Bernard McGuigan.
1 You will recall from growing up in the
2 Waterloo Street area that the street of Harvey Street
3 and so forth, leading down to Chamberlain Street, that
4 at a certain point a white line was painted across the
5 top of these streets?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Am I right in suggesting to you that that
8 happened in or about 1969 when the no-go area became
9 a reality, as it were?
10 A. At that time I would say so, you know. But
11 I can remember anyhow, you know, that I can remember.
12 Q. Do you remember the Royal Military Police
13 patrolling only in the Bogside area after the army came
14 in?
15 A. I remember the Military Police, yes, there
16 used to be Air Force and Army police, yes.
17 Q. I am not sure I can advance it any further
18 than that, sir, but it seemed to be --
19 LORD SAVILLE: Again my thanks to you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR RAWAT: Our next witness is Mr Melarkey.
22 MR DAVID MELARKEY, sworn
23 Questioned by MS McGAHEY
24 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Melarkey, I see you looking
25 across to me already, I am the Chairman, the questions
1 will come from the barristers in front of me. It is
2 important, if you would, to remember to keep pretty
3 close to that microphone in front of you. You can pull
4 it towards you a bit so you can remain comfortable, but
5 please speak into that microphone and then we will all
6 be able to hear what you have to say.
7 MS McGAHEY: Mr Melarkey, do you have with
8 you a copy of the statement you made to this Inquiry
9 and signed on 9th May 1999?
10 A. I did not bring it with me, but I got a copy
11 down the stairs.
12 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
13 the best of your knowledge and belief?
14 A. Yes, absolutely.
15 Q. You can see the first page of the statement
16 is on the screen in front of you. You may find it
17 easier to read it from there.
18 Could we highlight first, please,
19 paragraph 5. You tell us in your statement that you
20 were on the march with your brother Noel?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. At paragraph 5 you were hanging on to a sign;
23 is that the traffic sign?
24 A. It is a one-way sign.
25 Q. Between two bookmakers'?
1 A. No, no, that is wrong there about
2 bookmaker's, because the bookmaker's was on the other
3 side of the street.
4 Q. They were on the other side of the street.
5 You have annexed to your statement a photograph. Can
6 we have AM395.5, please?
7 A. It was actually a television shop, Porter's.
8 Q. We can see on this photograph the sign?
9 A. Yeah, that is right, that sign, the arrow
10 pointing, I was on that sign there. (Indicating).
11 Q. And the bookmaker's were on the other side?
12 A. The other side.
13 Q. If we go back to your statement, please, at
14 AM395.1, back to paragraph 5, you say that you could
15 see the army was going to come in from behind the
16 barricade and you also say:
17 "They had already fired over tear gas ..."
18 Do you recall now there being tear gas in the
19 air?
20 A. Yes, there was, aye, but before they did that
21 there was a, a water cannon came in before that. That
22 is when I got down off the sign, that is -- road sign
23 and ran across the street to the, where the bookies
24 side was, because there was a bend in the road,
25 a dogleg, a bend in the road, on William Street and the
1 water cannon could not shoot round the corner at us,
2 that is why I was on the other side of the street then.
3 Q. Staying for a moment with the gas: do you
4 actually remember seeing soldiers fire gas cannisters
5 or just there being gas in the air?
6 A. No, just gas in the air.
7 Q. In 1972 you made a statement. We need not
8 turn to it. What you say is that a gas grenade landed
9 in front of you. Do you remember that happening now?
10 A. Well, there was gas grenades landing
11 everywhere, like, there, so I am not too sure about
12 actually landing in front of me, you know, but there or
13 thereabouts like, you know.
14 Q. Could some of those have been thrown from
15 within the crowd?
16 A. Definitely not. Who would have gas
17 cannisters in the crowd like, you know?
18 Q. We have heard other evidence that there were
19 gas cannisters in the possession of some of the
20 marchers?
21 A. No, not in my -- not where I was.
22 Q. You did not see anybody throw it?
23 A. Never, never.
24 Q. You tell us in your statement that you left
25 the area when the water cannon came up and you ran to
1 Rossville Street and stood north of the rubble
2 barricade?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Could we pick up your statement, please,
5 again at paragraph 9, AM395.2. You tell us that you
6 were standing on one of the bollards that ran along the
7 side of Block 1 of the Rossville Flats?
8 A. That is right.
9 Q. You say you think it was when you were on
10 this bollard that you heard the first shot come from
11 a northerly direction:
12 "Two Pigs had come down Rossville Street when
13 I was up on the bollard. They came in a southerly
14 direction down Rossville Street."
15 When you first saw them the first Pig was
16 only about 20 feet away and the second one behind it.
17 You have marked where they were on your map.
18 Could we have that map on the screen, please,
19 at AM395.9. We can see right in the middle of the
20 picture you have identified the two Pigs with markings
21 Y and Z. We have heard other evidence, including
22 evidence taken by film from a helicopter, that suggests
23 that when the first two Pigs came into Rossville Street
24 one did stop briefly at roughly the position you have
25 marked as Z, before turning and moving in that
1 direction where I have marked towards Pilot Row, that
2 I have marked with the arrow, and that another Saracen
3 came down Rossville Street and headed towards the mouth
4 of the car park as I have marked it now.
5 Do you think it is possible that there was
6 only one Pig marked up or stopped for a short time in
7 Rossville Street?
8 A. No, there was two.
9 Q. There were definitely two?
10 A. Definitely two.
11 Q. If we stay with your mark, what you say is
12 that soldiers were jumping out of the back of the first
13 one, that is the one you have marked as Y, and you
14 recall they were shooting as they came out, but their
15 rifles were pointing up in the air?
16 A. That is correct, aye.
17 Q. There were at least six of the soldiers
18 walking behind the Pigs. One soldier positioned
19 himself to the west of the Pig that you have marked Y;
20 in fact, that is the soldier you have marked in
21 position P and the other position Q on the east.
22 You say Soldier P was firing with his rifle
23 pointing upwards, as if he was shooting up to the top
24 of Block 1 of the flats. You were concentrating more
25 on Q, who was shooting in the direction of the rubble
1 barricade?
2 A. That is right, aye.
3 Q. Is it possible that the first shots that you
4 heard fired as the soldiers got out of the Pigs were
5 rubber bullets?
6 A. No, definitely not.
7 Q. Could you tell the difference between rubber
8 bullet and SLR fire, rubber bullet and live rifle fire?
9 A. Certainly I could, aye, certainly.
10 Q. Thinking back now, is it not possible that at
11 least some of the fire that you heard was rubber
12 bullets?
13 A. No, because rubber bullets, whenever they are
14 fired, they left a big smokescreen behind them, like,
15 you know, like a crowd of smoke where live rounds did
16 not leave that, you know.
17 Q. Do you remember there being any smoke?
18 A. Not whenever they came into Rossville Street,
19 no, no way. They were just firing live bullets all the
20 time.
21 Q. You say that Soldier P was firing as if
22 shooting up to the top of Block 1 of the flats. Could
23 you see anybody at the windows of the flats that he
24 might have been aiming at?
25 A. No, I was not looking that way.
1 Q. Q, the man at Q was shooting in the direction
2 of the rubble barricade. At whom or at what was that
3 soldier shooting, who was there?
4 A. No, the impression that I got, they were
5 firing over the heads of people, like, just to scare
6 them like, you know.
7 Q. He was firing towards the rubble barricade
8 but over their heads?
9 A. Do not forget, we are all lying on the ground
10 at this time whenever the shooting started, like, you
11 know.
12 Q. If we go back to your statement, please, at
13 paragraphs 10 and 11 you say that when you had seen the
14 Pigs come in and you were standing on the bollard, you
15 heard the first shot you had heard that day?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told us earlier in your statement that
18 was from a northerly direction?
19 A. I am not too sure about these norths and
20 souths and west and all.
21 Q. North is up towards William Street?
22 A. Right, okay.
23 Q. Is that where the sound had come from?
24 A. That is where they came from, aye.
25 Q. Did you think the sound came from the area of
1 the Saracens that had just arrived or was it further
2 away?
3 A. No, no, right beside me, less than 20 yards
4 away.
5 Q. So the first shot, in your recollection, that
6 you heard that day was fired very close to you?
7 A. Right beside me, almost.
8 Q. Could you see the soldier who fired it?
9 A. Well, the first soldier that came up to the
10 rubble barricade and he put his hand to it and he says
11 "everybody up, everybody up", he was less than six
12 feet away from me.
13 Q. Did you see him fire?
14 A. Oh, aye, he was down on his knees firing as
15 soon as he got out of the out of the Pig.
16 Q. Which soldier was he; was he P or Q?
17 A. I am not too sure. He was in the middle of
18 Rossville Street, down on one knee, firing.
19 Q. If we go back to your map --
20 A. The boy that was leaning on the side of the
21 Pig firing out the window, I do not know whether it was
22 P or Q, that is your terminology, I do not know myself
23 like, you know.
24 Q. If you look at the map on the screen now, you
25 tell us you were concentrating particularly on two
1 soldiers. P you said was firing up towards the top of
2 the Rossville Flats?
3 A. It must have been Q then, the boy that was
4 down on his knees.
5 Q. Then you describe another you say was
6 kneeling and you have told us you thought he was firing
7 shots above the heads of the people at the rubble
8 barricade to scare them away?
9 A. That is the impression I got at the time.
10 Q. When you heard the first shot, the very first
11 shot you had heard, where did it come from?
12 A. It came from the back of a Pig, jumping out
13 of the Pig.
14 Q. I would like to ask you to look at
15 a photograph, please. Could we have P412. This
16 photograph is taken from the corner of the entrance of
17 Glenfada Park North and it is looking up towards
18 Rossville Street. You can see on the left-hand side of
19 the picture two Pigs coming into the Bogside. You can
20 see, obviously, a large number of people around the
21 area of the rubble barricade. Do you remember seeing
22 a scene like this?
23 A. Yeah, but there is something wrong with that
24 photograph there, because the two Pigs were on the
25 other side of the street from the flats.
1 Q. They were on the Kells Walk side, the
2 Glenfada Park North side?
3 A. Is that photograph not back to front?
4 Q. No, the photograph shows the rubble barricade
5 running across Rossville Street?
6 A. No, the two Pigs and the soldier that was
7 firing up towards the flats was, you see where them two
8 jeeps are now, the Pig and the jeep?
9 Q. Yes?
10 A. Well, they were on the other side of the
11 street.
12 Q. I am wrong, it is not two Pigs, it is two
13 army vehicles.
14 A. That is right, there is a Pig and a jeep, Pig
15 and a jeep, right, they were on the other side of the
16 street.
17 Q. This is Block 1 of the Rossville Flats on the
18 right-hand side. (Indicating). Although it is not
19 very clear, we can see here a number of bollards and
20 you describe being somewhere in that area?
21 A. Yeah, that is right, I was standing on the
22 one almost where Pilot's Row is now, the bollard.
23 Q. William Street is up in the direction where
24 you can see these two army vehicles?
25 A. Aye.
1 Q. So as you stood on that bollard and you
2 watched the army vehicles come in?
3 A. No, I did not watch them come in, I was
4 surprised to see them whenever I stood up, because that
5 must be a later photograph there, because there was
6 hundreds of people on that corner there and I was not
7 able to see over their heads, so I stood up on the
8 bollard to see what was happening and I found that two
9 jeeps had already been up almost to the barricade.
10 Q. As the army vehicles, whatever they were --
11 A. But they were on the Kells Walk side. Now,
12 that photograph is wrong, there.
13 Q. We can see one of the vehicles that is marked
14 with a green arrow does appear to be on the Kells Walk
15 side, does it not? (Indicating).
16 A. No, not really, no, because the Kells Walk
17 side is the other, you see that bollard or whatever,
18 you know, where you come out, like a veranda there?
19 Q. Balcony, yes?
20 A. Balcony, right, that is actually where the
21 two jeeps were.
22 Q. Obviously this photograph only shows a split
23 second in time. People and vehicles moved before and
24 after it was taken. I am not suggesting that this is
25 exactly the scene as you saw it when you first looked
1 up and saw these vehicles?
2 A. Well, nobody in their right mind would be
3 standing like that there whenever bullets is flying,
4 for a start.
5 Q. My question was: when you were standing on
6 the bollard, the army vehicles were coming in, do you
7 remember seeing this number of people at the rubble
8 barricade?
9 A. Oh, there was far more than that there.
10 Q. Far more than that?
11 A. Far more than that.
12 Q. Did you see any of those people throwing
13 stones or other missiles towards the soldiers?
14 A. Not at the barricade. Maybe at the bottom of
15 William Street, yeah, but not there. There was people
16 just mingling about, just passing the time.
17 Q. Did you see anybody, any civilian going over
18 the barricade towards William Street and towards those
19 army vehicles?
20 A. No, not really. I was in the, I was in the
21 William Street side of the barricade myself.
22 Q. Did you see anybody else come over that
23 barricade towards the soldiers?
24 A. Not really. I seen a fella getting carted --
25 his face was bust, his face was busted with a rubber
1 bullet or something, like, you know. The people
2 carried him into the flats, that was all.
3 MR TOOHEY: Ms McGahey, there may be some
4 risk of confusion here. Mr Melarkey answered
5 a question by saying there were far more than shown in
6 the photograph. I am not sure he necessarily means far
7 more at the barricade or far more in the area, because
8 he has spoken of people being in Rossville Street.
9 Could you perhaps clarify that for us?
10 MS McGAHEY: Yes. I asked you whether you
11 remembered seeing this number of people at the
12 barricade and you said no, far more. Is it far more
13 people you remember seeing at the barricade itself?
14 A. Oh there was far, there was at least 1,000
15 people round the front of the flats.
16 Q. Round the front of the flats?
17 A. How many would you see there, 40, 50?
18 Q. Something like that. But at the barricade
19 itself, around the area of the barricade itself, were
20 there more people than you see in this picture?
21 A. Far more.
22 Q. Were there more people between the barricade
23 and the place on the picture where we see the army
24 vehicles?
25 A. There was, aye. There was people running for
1 cover and things like that, that was, you know,
2 scattered more or less, you know.
3 Q. You have told us a moment ago you saw
4 somebody being helped away, having been hit in the
5 face?
6 A. That is right.
7 Q. With a rubber bullet, you thought?
8 A. Mmm.
9 Q. Where was that person?
10 A. He was just carried in with about five or six
11 people into the flats.
12 Q. Where was he when you saw him?
13 A. Whenever he came across Rossville Street. He
14 must have been hit in William Street or something, you
15 know.
16 Q. If we look on this picture, you can see
17 Rossville Street between the army vehicles and the
18 rubble barricade and behind that the wasteground that
19 used to be Eden Place and Pilot Row?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Was it in Rossville Street between the
22 barricade and the vehicles that you saw that man who
23 had been hit?
24 A. No. If you see the blue arrow there, right,
25 they went round to get into the flat, you had to go
1 round the side of the flats. (Indicating).
2 Q. They went round over the barricade?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. To get into the flats?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. Where had he come from?
7 A. Well, I had presumed from William Street,
8 I think myself, I am not too sure. But I know the
9 blood was flying out of his mouth and all, he was hit
10 in his face, anyway.
11 Q. Did you see anybody being arrested in the
12 area of the wasteground or Rossville Street?
13 A. Never, no. I seen people, whenever they were
14 told to get up off the ground with hands on their head
15 and all. That is when I went to the alleyway, like,
16 you know.
17 Q. Before that point, as you were standing on
18 the bollard or just afterwards, did you see anybody
19 being arrested in the wasteground area or between the
20 barricade and those army vehicles?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
23 at paragraphs 11 to 12. You tell us that you cannot
24 recall how many shots these soldiers fired but you seem
25 to recall seeing the one at P, that is the one on the
1 Kells Walk side, firing at least three shots up in the
2 direction of Block 1. Do you remember actually seeing
3 that rifle being fired?
4 A. I did, yes, yeah, oh aye.
5 Q. How do you know it had been fired, rather
6 than just being held in an aimed position?
7 A. You can see it jerking like, you know.
8 Q. You recall someone in command shouting out
9 "Do not shoot until you can identify a target"?
10 A. Identified targets only, aye.
11 Q. Could you hear where that command had come
12 from?
13 A. From the Kells Walk side on the -- I presume
14 he was a commander or whatever he was. He was walking
15 up and down and he was agitated that he could not get
16 his soldiers under control.
17 Q. You tell us you were lying flat and when you
18 looked up recalled seeing a soldier, if we go over the
19 page. You do not know whether it was a soldier who had
20 been at P or Q, waving and gesturing with his hands to
21 tell the people in front of you on the barricade to get
22 up?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. You told us you were lying flat. Were you
25 now lying flat on the Free Derry Corner side of the
1 barricade?
2 A. I was on the front of the barricade at this
3 time.
4 Q. Is the front the side that faces
5 William Street or the side that faces Free Derry
6 Corner?
7 A. No, the side that faces William Street.
8 Q. William Street?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. When the soldier came up gesturing with his
11 hands to tell people on the barricade to get up, you
12 were still on the William Street side of that
13 barricade?
14 A. That is right, aye.
15 Q. So many people did that, with their hands on
16 their heads. You were within touching distance of the
17 barricade but there were quite a few people in front of
18 you. Does that mean there were more people in front of
19 the barricade, between the barricade and William
20 Street?
21 A. Yeah, there was, aye.
22 Q. And when they got up, as they were motioned
23 to do by the soldier, you saw a chance to escape?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. Under the cover of the people who were
1 standing, you ran as fast as you could towards Free
2 Derry Corner?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. Does that mean you had to climb over the
5 barricade to do that?
6 A. No, I went round the side -- the footpath was
7 clear, you see. The barricade was only on the actual
8 road itself, whereas you could walk in between the
9 barricade and Rossville -- the flats itself and it was
10 clear, it was just an ordinary footpath.
11 Q. Do you remember roughly how many other people
12 there were lying at the barricade who were told to get
13 up by these soldiers?
14 A. There was at least a couple of hundred people
15 anyway, at least a couple of hundred. That is why that
16 photograph is wrong there. That photograph must have
17 been taken maybe after the shooting was all done, or
18 something, I do not know.
19 Q. Your recollection is of a couple of hundred
20 people; all lying on the William Street side of the
21 barricade or on both sides?
22 A. On both sides of the barricade, both sides.
23 Q. And one soldier came down and made them all
24 get up?
25 A. With his rifle in one hand he done that,
1 everybody up, done that. That is when, if you ever see
2 old footage, you will see people walking with their
3 hands on their head and all, over towards Kells Walk.
4 Whenever they were doing that, I was going the other
5 way, getting off-side.
6 Q. The Inquiry has heard a lot of other evidence
7 that suggests that a number of people were arrested and
8 taken away from the gable end to Glenfada Park North?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. If we could have P428, please. You can see
11 on the right-hand side of this picture, the bottom
12 right, the edge of the rubble barricade. You can see
13 a crowd of people at that gable end. There is evidence
14 that some time after this picture was taken soldiers
15 came from the Glenfada Park side, possibly from the
16 Rossville Street side, certainly from the Glenfada Park
17 side, and arrested a number of people there. Do you
18 think it might have been that that you saw?
19 A. No, no. I have never seen this photograph
20 before and I will be quite honest with you: whenever
21 anybody was getting arrested, I was away, because I was
22 not going to get picked up myself, like, you know.
23 Q. Could we go back to your statement at
24 AM395.3, paragraphs 13 and 14. You tell us that you
25 can remember that when other people stood up there were
1 some two bodies that did not get up, but you do not
2 know whether those people had been shot or whether they
3 were too frightened to get up and wanted to stay under
4 cover?
5 A. That is right, aye.
6 Q. Were those people on the William Street side
7 of the barricade or the Free Derry Corner side?
8 A. No, they were on the Free Derry Corner side.
9 Q. Did you see any injuries on either of them?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Could you describe either of them?
12 A. No, I could not, no.
13 Q. Were they both men?
14 A. Oh, they were men, aye, because I do not
15 think there was any women around the barricade at the
16 time, like, you know.
17 Q. Were they young or old?
18 A. No, I could not honestly say, like, you know.
19 Q. You then tell us that you ran towards
20 a working men's hut you had spotted somewhere in the
21 area of Free Derry Corner?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. You went into it with two young lads and when
24 you were in you closed the doors and you could hear
25 bullets striking in the area of Free Derry Corner?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. And people squealing and shouting. What
3 exactly could you hear that made you think it was
4 bullets striking the area of Free Derry Corner?
5 A. Well, you could hear the smack and the
6 whining, you know, things like that, you know.
7 Q. Could we go on, please, to paragraph 16. You
8 tell us that you left the hut and had to make a sweep
9 round the Bogside to get back to your home, but you
10 tell us that you turned west, went up Francis Street
11 and back in an easterly direction, that is, in other
12 words, towards barrier 14, towards Great James Street?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. You did not speak to anyone. You do not
15 think there was any shooting at this time, save for the
16 occasional bang that might have been an isolated
17 sniper's shot?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. You tell us about an old distillery. We will
20 come to that in a moment. Apart from that, did you
21 hear shots come from anywhere else?
22 A. Yes, there were shots came from around Watts
23 distillery, when I was making my way up half built
24 houses.
25 Q. Is that from the half built houses in the
1 Lisfannon Park area?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. There were shots from there?
4 A. No, from Watts distillery.
5 Q. The distillery?
6 A. The distillery, aye.
7 Q. Apart from the distillery, were there shots
8 from anywhere else?
9 A. You could hear firing from all directions,
10 but where they were coming from, I do not know.
11 Q. What you said in your statement, you heard
12 the occasional bang that might have been an isolated
13 sniper's shot?
14 A. Mmm.
15 Q. Leaving aside the distillery, did you hear
16 a shot or shots from anywhere else that you can recall,
17 an isolated shot from anywhere else?
18 A. You see, this all happened within about 10,
19 maybe 12 minutes, you know, within a period of time
20 where the heavy shooting was going and the shooting
21 stopped and then I made my way out of the tin hut,
22 working man's, where they had their tea breaks, me and
23 the two young fellas and we made our way up through the
24 half built houses and it was only just sporadic, an odd
25 shot here and then at that time, but the heavy shooting
1 had gone then.
2 Q. Concentrating on those sporadic shots, where
3 were you when you heard the first of those shots?
4 A. I was making my way up through half built
5 houses.
6 Q. You were somewhere in the Lisfannon Park
7 area?
8 A. Yeah, and I know for a fact because I was
9 heading in that direction and the shots was coming --
10 you could hear them, you know, you were pretty close to
11 them, because you were heading, I was heading in that
12 direction up towards Frederick Street and where the
13 Credit Union is in Derry now at the present minute.
14 Q. Could you tell the direction from which those
15 shots were coming?
16 A. Oh, they came over my head anyway. I do not
17 know about the young fella's, like, you know.
18 Q. Could you tell whether they were coming from
19 the walls or the direction of William Street, the
20 direction of Free Derry Corner?
21 A. No, they were coming from the Watts
22 distillery.
23 Q. Could you tell what type of fire it was?
24 A. It was just the same as it was in
25 Rossville Street, there was high velocity shots.
1 Q. Is it possible it could have been low
2 velocity fire?
3 A. No, no, it was not, no, it was high, high
4 velocity shots.
5 Q. You have told us about the old distillery
6 next to the Credit Union building and you recall
7 hearing shooting coming from that distillery during the
8 course of the day?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You have told us you heard that shooting
11 while you were in the Lisfannon Park area?
12 A. There was two shots fired anyway, when I was
13 making my way up there.
14 Q. Was that the only time you heard shooting
15 from there?
16 A. From that, from that part there, yeah.
17 Q. And you say, as you walked past it, up
18 towards Abbey Street, you heard soldiers speaking
19 inside?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Could you see any soldiers?
22 A. No, but I could hear them.
23 Q. It would not have been possible, would it, to
24 tell whether they were soldiers or other people inside?
25 A. No, they were making a racket as if they were
1 at a football match, cheering and shouting, you know,
2 nothing really like in a sentence, or nothing like
3 that, it was just if you were at a football match,
4 shouting and roaring, like, you know.
5 Q. How could you tell that was soldiers making
6 that noise rather than local people?
7 A. I think I know an English voice well enough.
8 Q. And you remember hearing English voices?
9 A. Oh, yes, aye.
10 Q. There is one further question I wanted to
11 ask. Could we go over the page, please, to paragraph
12 21. This is later on. You are describing being in the
13 area of Brewster's bakery?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you say that there was someone in
16 apparent command of soldiers in that area who told
17 soldiers to withdraw their snipers; do you still
18 recollect hearing that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then you describe a scuffle between
21 a number of soldiers and you say at this point a shot
22 rang out very close to you. Do you have any idea from
23 where that shot was fired?
24 A. It was fired inside Brewster's bakery.
25 Q. From inside Brewster's bakery?
1 A. It was a lot louder than a normal shot,
2 because it was like an echo, actually, you know. If
3 you fired a shot inside here, it would sound louder
4 than out in the street, you know what I mean.
5 Q. Was that live fire or rubber bullet fire?
6 A. Well, I would say it was a live round,
7 because things were getting out of hand, I think maybe
8 the officer pulled his gun and fired a shot to quieten
9 the soldiers down, like, you know.
10 Q. But you did not see anybody fire?
11 A. That is my opinion, like.
12 Q. Did you see anybody fire?
13 A. I never seen anybody firing but a shot was
14 fired there.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all my
16 questions.
17 Questioned by MR MALLON
18 MR MALLON: Mr Melarkey, my name is Mallon
19 and I represent the interests of the Nash family before
20 the Tribunal.
21 I wonder if you could give me some assistance
22 in relation to a single issue. If we could have on the
23 screen AM395.9, please. This is the map attached to
24 your statement. On the map you have identified the
25 location of two soldiers on Rossville Street whom you
1 say you observed firing?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. And you identified those as P and Q?
4 A. Okay, aye.
5 Q. If I could have on the screen AM395.2, and if
6 I could highlight paragraphs 9 and 10.
7 In those two paragraphs, Ms McGahey has
8 already taken you through them, you indicated, the
9 bottom of paragraph 9:
10 "My attention focused on the soldier I have
11 marked with Q who was shooting in the direction of the
12 rubble barricade."
13 Do you see that in your statement?
14 A. I see it there, aye.
15 Q. Again, in paragraph 10, what you say in
16 relation to this particular soldier:
17 "The soldier at point Q was firing aimed
18 shots from a kneeled position."
19 A. That is right.
20 Q. You have indicated to Ms McGahey in response
21 to a question as to what it was the soldier you have
22 referred to as P did that gave you the impression he
23 was shooting, firing live rounds. What was it about Q
24 that gave you the impression he was firing aimed shots?
25 A. Well, he was pointing -- now, the boy that
1 was, he was leaning on the mud-guard, what I call
2 a mud-guard of the Pig, pointing up at the flats. Now,
3 he was definitely firing live rounds and so was your
4 man in his kneeling, in a kneeling position. You do
5 not get down on your knee and do this here and the gun
6 going like that there unless you are firing, firing
7 live rounds. (Indicating). Do not forget bullets were
8 -- this is at the very, very start of the heavy
9 gunfire that came into action that day and there was
10 bullets flying then everywhere. It did not cease for
11 10 minutes, at least 10 minutes.
12 Q. When you made your statement in May 1999, you
13 had no doubt but that the soldier was in a kneeling
14 position?
15 A. No, I did not make this statement in 1999,
16 I made this statement in 1972.
17 Q. You made your Eversheds statement in May
18 1999. As recorded in paragraphs 9 and 10, you have no
19 doubt but that the soldier was in a kneeling position?
20 A. Yeah, oh, he was.
21 Q. If I could have on the screen, please,
22 EP27.9. I am uncertain whether or not you have seen
23 this photograph before and if we could have control of
24 the screen, please, and if the area in or about the
25 front of the two vehicles could be highlighted.
1 If you look at that photograph, does that
2 photograph bring back any memories to you, Mr Melarkey?
3 A. Not that particular spot, because I had to
4 stand up on a bollard to see over people's heads to see
5 what was going on and the two Pigs were on the
6 Kells Walk side, right up beside the flats, up almost
7 -- they were only 20 feet away from the barricade and
8 that last photograph that I looked at, if you noticed
9 that last photograph, they were on the flat side, but
10 these two Pigs were definitely on the Kells Walk side,
11 20 feet away from a fucking barricade. Sorry for ...
12 Q. If one looks at the two vehicles, you can see
13 an individual soldier who clearly appears to be in
14 a kneeling position?
15 A. I see it there now, aye. No, that was, no,
16 these ones were -- I can see the old,
17 what-do-you-call-it -- that appears to be
18 Little James Street there in the background, yes, Hogg
19 & Mitchell's old factory, right.
20 Q. There is some considerable foreshortening in
21 the photograph. What I want you to concentrate your
22 mind on -- one can see in that photograph a soldier who
23 is clearly kneeling. The photograph is not
24 sufficiently clear to say whether or not he has a rifle
25 in an aimed position, but it does appear to show
1 a soldier who is kneeling?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. What I want to ask you, in an effort to
4 assist the Inquiry: does the position of that soldier
5 accord with the position that you recall observing your
6 Soldier Q in?
7 A. No, no. The soldiers that came right up to
8 the barricade -- that there is almost on William Street
9 there, is it not, I would say so, that photograph?
10 Q. Perhaps if I show you another photograph,
11 Mr Melarkey, because of the foreshortening. If I could
12 have on the screen E15.009. You can see in this
13 photograph the same two vehicles. The photograph is
14 taken at a different time because there is no soldier
15 kneeling at the right-hand side of the right-hand
16 vehicle in the photograph; do you see that?
17 A. Yeah, I see that, aye.
18 Q. Does that photograph serve to assist you in
19 relation to the positioning of the vehicles at all?
20 You can see Little James Street in the background;
21 William Street is some considerable distance back
22 because of the number of other vehicles in the convoy?
23 A. That was a convoy come in, but there was two,
24 there was two Pigs before that came right up to the
25 barricade before that crowd there came in, because they
1 came in then, a half a dozen or maybe a dozen of jeeps
2 and Pigs and all, but there was two came in on their
3 own at the start.
4 Q. Finally, Mr Melarkey: you have indicated to
5 the Tribunal that in your mind you are quite certain
6 that the soldier who you refer to as Soldier Q was
7 firing live rounds?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. If I could have on the screen Q7, please.
10 This is what is described as a trajectory map,
11 Mr Melarkey. It is a scale map of the area and it has
12 superimposed on it various -- you can see the lines,
13 which are to represent the position from which members
14 of the Parachute Regiment have stated they had fired
15 live rounds from.
16 You will observe from that map that no
17 soldier accepts firing live rounds from the position
18 that you say you saw or observed this soldier referred
19 to as Q firing from; do you understand that?
20 A. I understand what you are saying, aye.
21 Q. In observing that map, do you have any doubt
22 whatsoever but that the soldier at point Q or the
23 soldier referred to as Q did in fact fire live rounds?
24 A. The both of them were firing live rounds
25 because the simple reason is: when I went back the next
1 day, to check there was five or six bullet holes in one
2 of the flat windows, which I thought he was firing up
3 at the top of the flats, that is only -- I thought that
4 myself, but whenever I went back the next day there was
5 five or six bullet holes in one of the windows on the
6 flats themselves and I -- you know, I surmised then
7 that that is what he was firing at, he was firing in
8 through that win -- and that is why I have to differ
9 with the photographs that you showed me, because he had
10 to be near the rubble barricade to actually hit them
11 windows, you know the windows in the flats.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 Questioned by MR ELIAS
14 MR ELIAS: One matter, if I may.
15 Mr Melarkey, to your left.
16 Could we have a look at AM395.8, the
17 statement that you made in 1972. This is a typed copy
18 of a statement that you made, you say in your Eversheds
19 statement, to a volunteer. Do you remember the person
20 to whom you made it, was it a man or a woman?
21 A. It was, I think it was a man and I think he
22 was a school teacher now, I am not too sure.
23 Q. If you look at the last paragraph in that
24 statement, including the signatures at the bottom,
25 please. It looks as though it is a Neil McFarren,
1 although there is some question mark put against it.
2 You do not know that man, do you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you remember: did you tell him what to
5 write down or did he ask you questions?
6 A. Well, as far as I can remember he was taking
7 a general, a general, like, consensus of the situation
8 on that day. He did not ask for details nor nothing,
9 he just, you know -- there was hundreds of people
10 queued up, you know, and there were only so many people
11 taking statements.
12 Q. I understand, but when you told him what you
13 had seen, were they your words or were they his words?
14 A. Oh, no, they were my words.
15 Q. Your words?
16 A. My words.
17 Q. Can you help about this, this paragraph that
18 has been highlighted on the screen:
19 "I can definitely state that in all the time
20 covered by this statement, I never heard a nail bomb."
21 That is true, is it?
22 A. Yes, 100 per cent.
23 Q. Nor a Thompson machine-gun?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. I wonder why you mentioned a Thompson
1 machine-gun?
2 A. Because you would hear them regular around
3 Derry at that time, like.
4 Q. You would have had heard them fired by the
5 IRA, would you, regularly?
6 A. Well, I did, aye.
7 Q. Sorry?
8 A. I did, aye.
9 Q. That is why you mentioned it on this
10 occasion, was it?
11 A. Well, you see, people were saying at that
12 time that the British Army were fired upon.
13 Q. I follow.
14 A. And there are used a few old Thompson
15 machine-guns I think there, but on that day there was
16 no gunfire from the other side.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MS McGAHEY: I have no further questions,
19 sir.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Melarkey, it is the
21 Chairman again, over to your right: thank you very much
22 indeed for coming here to help us. Thank you.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 MS McGAHEY: The next witness is Mr Kearney,
25 sir.
1 MR COYLE: Sir, might it be possible to
2 assist in respect of one matter that arose from
3 a photograph this morning.
4 This photograph is EP4.4, it was shown to
5 Mr McCloskey. It is the photograph looking down
6 Waterloo Street, sir. If it could be put on the
7 screen, it may shorten matters.
8 Sir, it is the location of this wall. It is
9 the wall that appears behind General Ford and the point
10 was canvassed by Mr Clarke whether that was the city
11 walls.
12 Those who instruct me, sir, indicate that if
13 Mr McCloskey's map, that is AM117.8, could be shown it
14 may resolve that issue: perhaps the area around
15 Waterloo Street could be highlighted.
16 Sir, it appears to us that the photograph
17 that is taken looking down Waterloo Street in this
18 direction and that the wall that perhaps has caused
19 some confusion is the wall at the apex or the final
20 point of the arrow. It had been a demolished site at
21 the material time. The city walls run at a different
22 angle.
23 LORD SAVILLE: That is what was confusing
24 me. You may well be right, yes.
25 MR COYLE: I do not want to give evidence
1 from the bar with my local experience, but those who
2 instruct me confirm that is perhaps both the correct
3 line of the photograph and the wall that appeared is
4 not that of the city walls, but of a gable left exposed
5 from a former disturbance.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Well, rightly or wrongly, that
7 is certainly removes some confusion from my mind.
8 Thank you very much.
9 MR HUGH KEARNEY, sworn
10 QUESTIONED BY MS McGAHEY
11 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Kearney, I see you looking
12 at me and I will introduce myself, as I do to all the
13 witnesses. I am the Chairman. The questions will come
14 from the barristers in front of me. Can you try and
15 remember to keep close to the microphone in front of
16 you, so we can all hear what you have to say.
17 MS McGAHEY: Mr Kearney, do you have a copy
18 of the statement that you to the Inquiry and signed on
19 29th June 1999?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
22 the best of your knowledge and belief?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. I would like to ask you first questions about
25 paragraph 7, which appears on the screen in front of
1 you. You tell is in the first page of your statement
2 that you were on the march and you reached the position
3 B that you have identified for us on your map?
4 A. Mm-hm.
5 Q. You looked over to your left, saw some
6 soldiers across the road on the flat roof of the GPO
7 sorting office; you had not seen any soldiers before
8 you got to that position, there was nothing unusual
9 about them. You cannot remember whether they were
10 armed or not, you just remember seeing one or two of
11 them on the roof.
12 Were there any civilians in the area of these
13 soldiers?
14 A. I could not see any, no.
15 Q. Were there civilians just walking down
16 Rossville Street and William Street?
17 A. The march, yes.
18 Q. Were they still in the area?
19 A. Sorry?
20 Q. When you saw the soldiers, were marchers
21 walking past and down William Street?
22 A. Mm-hm.
23 Q. Did you see anybody throwing anything at the
24 soldiers on the roof?
25 A. I cannot mind.
1 Q. Or at soldiers in any other building in the
2 area?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You tell us then you did hear a few shots
5 being fired but you thought they sounded like rubber
6 bullets being fired and did not pay much attention to
7 them?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Did the sound of those shots come from the
10 GPO area?
11 A. I could not say now.
12 Q. Do you have any idea of the direction from
13 which they came?
14 A. Not really, no.
15 Q. Were they close to you?
16 A. Well, they would have been if I heard them,
17 yes.
18 Q. Could you at that time readily tell the
19 difference between rubber bullet fire and live fire?
20 A. I could, yeah.
21 Q. And you are certain the shots that you heard
22 at this stage were rubber bullet fire?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Did you hear any other shots that sounded
25 different?
1 A. At that time?
2 Q. Yes, or soon afterwards?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If we go on in your statement, you tell us
5 that you walked on to the barrier we have called
6 barrier 14. Were you with John Friel at the time?
7 A. Sorry, where are we up to now?
8 Q. We can look at paragraphs 9 to 10, I just
9 wanted to ask you generally, rather than about a
10 specific paragraph.
11 You moved on to the barrier we have called
12 barrier 14?
13 A. Yeah. You are asking me was I with John
14 Friel?
15 Q. Do you remember being with John Friel at that
16 time, around the barrier?
17 A. He would have been in that area at the time,
18 yeah. I might not have been with him, I was with
19 several people at that time.
20 Q. I want to show you some photographs and see
21 whether you recognise yourself or anyone else in them.
22 Could we have EP5.4, please.
23 Do you recognise anyone in that picture?
24 A. Yeah, I am there.
25 Q. Are you the person I am pointing out on the
1 left-hand side? (Indicating).
2 A. Yeah, that looks like me, yeah.
3 Q. We need not save that image. In fact
4 Mr Friel identified you as well when he gave evidence.
5 We can see you are the first person on the right-hand
6 side of the corrugated iron shutter on that picture.
7 EP4.11, please. Do you recognise anybody
8 there?
9 A. Yeah, I am there too.
10 Q. Are you that person? (Indicating).
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. It seems from that picture that you have
13 something in your hand?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Do you know what that was?
16 A. It was a stone, probably.
17 Q. It seems rather longer than a stone?
18 A. Well, it could have been a bottle, it looks
19 like a bottle maybe. It could be a brick, you know.
20 Q. Did you throw a brick or a bottle?
21 A. Oh, yes, I did, yeah.
22 Q. Again, we need not save this image, but
23 again, for the transcript, we can see you are the
24 person immediately in front of the lane we call
25 Macari's Lane in between Quinn's shop and the
1 Central Cafe and you appear to have an object of some
2 sort in your hand.
3 Could we go back to your statement, please,
4 to paragraphs 10 to 12. You tell us there that the gas
5 made you feel sick and so you moved through the
6 alleyway by Quinn's, is that Macari's Lane?
7 A. Yes, that would be it, yeah.
8 Q. About a dozen or so people sheltering in the
9 south end of that alleyway. You went through the
10 alleyway on to Eden Place?
11 A. Correct, yeah.
12 Q. You became aware of army movement and so
13 sought to escape by going through the alleyway that
14 joins Eden Place to Chamberlain Street?
15 A. Correct, yeah.
16 Q. In paragraph 12 you say that as you made your
17 way towards Chamberlain Street you paused at a position
18 you have marked for us on your map, looked north to the
19 top of Chamberlain Street and saw soldiers in
20 William Street facing south down into
21 Chamberlain Street and those soldiers had rifles?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. You remember one soldier standing at the
24 north end of Chamberlain Street and you have marked his
25 position, pointing his gun south down Chamberlain
1 Street. You then started to run down Chamberlain
2 Street.
3 If we go on to paragraph 13, please, you say
4 that as you ran you could hear the crack of rifle fire
5 and you were aware that live rounds were being fired
6 and the sound was different from the shots you had
7 heard earlier up in William Street.
8 You say that you could not tell exactly where
9 the shots were coming from but you assumed they were
10 from the soldier at F, that is at the top end of
11 Chamberlain Street.
12 The Tribunal has heard evidence that
13 a soldier fired from the alleyway that joins Eden Place
14 to Chamberlain Street, the alleyway that you had run
15 along, and fired into Chamberlain Street and hit the
16 building on the corner, the house on the corner of
17 Harvey Street and Chamberlain Street. Is it possible
18 that the sound you heard came from there?
19 A. Could have been, could have been.
20 Q. Do you remember John Friel being with you at
21 that time, as you ran down Chamberlain Street?
22 A. When I ran down Chamberlain Street? No,
23 I could not say.
24 Q. John Friel has told us he was aware of a
25 soldier being in that area, first seeing a soldier with
1 a rubber bullet gun, then picking up a half brick or
2 a stone to throw at the soldier, should he reappear,
3 and then seeing a soldier there with a rifle.
4 Do you have any recollection of seeing John
5 Friel there with a brick to attack any soldier?
6 A. Well, I was running. I might have been in
7 front of him, he could have been behind me at the time,
8 you know. He was with me most of the time, whether he
9 was behind me with a brick --
10 Q. Do you remember seeing him?
11 A. With a brick, no.
12 Q. As he ran, do you have any recollection of
13 hearing shots that could have been machine-gun fire?
14 A. I have some recollection of a whole lot of
15 shots together, whether that is machine-gun fire,
16 I would not a knew then as such, you know, but they
17 were closer together, they were not single, you know.
18 It would have been rapid fire.
19 Q. Do you have any idea of the direction from
20 which this rapid fire was coming?
21 A. I would assume it was from behind me, at the
22 time.
23 Q. Could you actually tell it was behind you?
24 A. Where else would it be from, there was only
25 one way I was running. It was like an alleyway,
1 Chamberlain Street just runs up the one way. I assumed
2 that because the shot I heard before I assumed was from
3 behind me, not to the side; this way, not that way.
4 Q. Could the shots have come from one side or
5 the other of you?
6 A. I cannot see how, no.
7 Q. Could you get a little closer to the
8 microphone?
9 A. Sorry, I have cold on me. I do not see how.
10 Q. Thinking back to what you heard -- not to the
11 position in which you had seen soldiers or where you
12 think they must have been, but just think of running
13 down Chamberlain Street and hearing that rapid fire;
14 could you actually tell the direction from which it was
15 coming?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You tell us then that you ran into the
18 Rossville Flats car park from Chamberlain Street?
19 A. Yes, that area.
20 Q. If we go over the page to paragraph 15 you
21 tell us that you vaguely remember running past someone
22 who was face down on the ground; that person was either
23 lying down or had been shot. Did you see any injury on
24 that person?
25 A. At that time I was running, no. Running in
1 the car park, you say?
2 Q. Could you tell whether the person was a man
3 or a woman?
4 A. I would say it was a man, probably, you
5 know. It was mostly men was running with me at that
6 time.
7 Q. Could you tell whether the person was young
8 or middle-aged or old?
9 A. I could not, no.
10 Q. I would like to ask you to look at
11 a photograph. Could we have P205.
12 This, you can tell, is an aerial view of the
13 Rossville Flats taken from the north, from the
14 Chamberlain Street end. It is not taken on the day but
15 we can see from the map, from the photograph, the route
16 you would have taken to get into the Rossville Flats
17 car park.
18 Looking at that picture, if you have control
19 of the screen, could you mark on it where it was you
20 saw the person who was lying on the ground?
21 A. There were several people that fell, so --
22 Q. You have told us there were several people --
23 A. They were running and fell at the time --
24 Q. Did you see those people get up again?
25 A. No, I did not, I was in too much of a hurry
1 to get out of there, you know.
2 Q. How many people did you see fall?
3 A. About two or three.
4 Q. Looking at this picture, do you have any idea
5 where they were?
6 A. They were in this area here -- I am sorry,
7 about there.
8 Q. They were in the area, the north end of the
9 Rossville Flats towards the east gable end of the
10 Chamberlain Street houses?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Did you see any
13 apparent injury on any of those people?
14 A. Not at the time, no, I did not have time.
15 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
16 at AK1.9 and to paragraph 18. You tell us there that
17 you were hiding behind the low wall which runs in front
18 of Block 2 of the flats. You looked over the wall to
19 see what was happening and saw soldiers behind the wire
20 fence -- that is the wire fence in the wasteground just
21 north of the car park -- and also at the gable end of
22 the west side of Chamberlain Street.
23 You say you distinctly remember seeing one
24 particular soldier at the end of Chamberlain Street and
25 you have marked his position on your map. He was
1 standing with his rifle to his right shoulder and
2 aiming towards Block 2 of the flats, wearing
3 a camouflage combat-style uniform and a steel helmet.
4 I would like to ask you to look at another
5 photograph. Could we have EP28.3A.
6 This photograph was taken on Bloody Sunday
7 from Block 2 of the flats. We can see both the east
8 and west gable ends of Chamberlain Street now looking
9 up Chamberlain Street.
10 If you have control of the screen, could you
11 point us to the area in which you saw this particular
12 soldier?
13 A. Just about here. (Marked with blue arrow).
14 Q. You describe there being other soldiers; were
15 there other soldiers at the gable end with him?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember there being any civilians in
18 the area?
19 A. No.
20 Q. None at all?
21 A. None at all at that area, no.
22 Q. As you looked back across from the low wall
23 you remember this one soldier, was there anyone else in
24 the car park?
25 A. Yeah, Father Daly was over here as I had
1 found out later, over at this corner here. (Marked
2 with blue arrow).
3 Q. Over to the left of the picture. Looking to
4 the west gable end, you can see first the gable end of
5 the house itself and then the wall that marks the
6 garden, the boundary of the garden in Chamberlain
7 Street. Do you remember seeing any people in that
8 area?
9 A. No. I vaguely mind there was a wire fence
10 about here and there were soldiers running round this
11 area, in that area, a couple of them there. (Marked
12 with blue arrow).
13 Q. The Tribunal has heard evidence of there
14 being a civilian gunman in the area of this wall that
15 I have marked with the yellow arrow. (Indicating). We
16 need not save the image of this photograph, but we can
17 say for the transcript that you recollect seeing
18 a soldier on the east side of the west gable end of
19 Chamberlain Street on the corner of Chamberlain Street
20 itself.
21 Can we go to another photograph. Can we have
22 P560.
23 This photograph is a still taken from
24 a film. It is not easy to decipher. You can see in
25 the middle of the picture a man who appears to be
1 moving towards, certainly looking towards the left-hand
2 side of that wall and a soldier or soldiers around the
3 corner. Does that bring back any recollection at all?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Could we go on in your statement, please, at
6 AK1.9, to paragraph 19 and 20. You tell us in
7 paragraph 19 that you recall seeing Father Daly
8 crouched over a person who was lying on the ground and
9 you have just described for us where he was in the car
10 park.
11 Was the person on the ground one of those
12 whom you had seen fall earlier or somebody else?
13 A. No, he was not.
14 Q. He was not someone you had seen earlier?
15 A. No.
16 Q. In paragraph 20 you say:
17 "The next thing I remember seeing was one of
18 the 20 people (who were behind the wall) getting up
19 from behind the low wall where I was hiding, with his
20 hands up in the air, stepping over the low wall and
21 shouting 'For God's sake, shoot me'. He had nothing in
22 his hands, was just waving them straight up in the
23 air."
24 You did not know the man but you found out
25 later it was Mickey Bridge. You saw him hit and
1 stumble. He was still standing but appeared to have
2 been shot in the leg?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. What is it that makes you think the man you
5 saw was Mickey Bridge?
6 A. What makes me think that? I found out later
7 that it was.
8 Q. The Tribunal has heard a substantial amount
9 of evidence that suggests that Mickey Bridge did not
10 come from the low wall, certainly immediately before he
11 was shot. I will show you another picture. Could we
12 have P518.
13 We believe this photograph shows
14 Michael Bridge on the left-hand side. It is taken
15 shortly before he was shot. Does the man you can see
16 in this picture look anything like the man you saw?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Coming from?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. The low wall?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. You tell us that he stayed standing?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Did you actually know that he had been hit?
25 A. Well, we heard the crack.
1 Q. You heard the crack?
2 A. Yeah, of the rifle.
3 Q. Did you know where he had been injured?
4 A. Well, he sorta put his hand down, sorta, as
5 if he was ready to stumble, you know.
6 Q. Could you pull the microphone a little closer
7 to you, please?
8 A. He put his hand down towards his leg as he
9 started -- ready to stumble.
10 Q. Is it your recollection that he came straight
11 from the wall and was shot?
12 A. As far as I remember, he came from the wall,
13 over towards Father Daly.
14 Q. How close to you was he when he was shot?
15 A. He would have been a good 20 feet away,
16 I would say, from the wall.
17 Q. Was he, in your recollection, in something
18 like the position we see here?
19 A. No, he seemed to be turned round a different
20 direction.
21 Q. Was he in this area?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. We do know that another man did come out from
24 the low wall, a man called Michael Bradley, and was
25 shot in both arms. Do you remember seeing that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you remember John Friel being with you as
3 you were behind the wall?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Do you remember pulling him back as he tried
6 to go over the wall as well?
7 A. Vaguely, yes.
8 Q. You tell us then that you went through the
9 gap between Blocks 1 and 2, if we go back to your
10 statement at AK1.10 and paragraphs 23 to 25. Had you
11 lost John Friel at that point?
12 A. Yeah, I did, yeah.
13 Q. You saw the body of a man there and found
14 later that this was Bernard McGuigan?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Do you recall at that stage seeing a girl who
17 was hysterical?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. I would like to show you a picture. Could we
20 have P467, please.
21 This is a picture of a girl called Geraldine
22 Richmond who did become hysterical and she is being
23 carried away. It has been suggested you might be the
24 person in the background of that picture; do you think
25 you are?
1 A. Yeah, it looks like me, yeah.
2 Q. Could we have another picture, P867, please.
3 This photograph is taken, you can see, behind Block 1.
4 You can see the telephone box in the background. Does
5 this picture show you and John Friel?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Do you remember when this was taken; you
8 appear to have met each other again?
9 A. We met each other again and it is when John
10 was looking at the body of Bernard McGuigan and he got
11 a bit upset and I sort of was trying to bring him round
12 at the time, that is when we met up again.
13 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
14 to paragraphs 25 and 26 on AK1.10: you have described
15 a couple of girls who were in hysterics and the man
16 crouching?
17 A. There was a few.
18 Q. You said "I then heard shots begin again" and
19 you waited at the position you have marked on the map.
20 You assumed the shooting was coming from the walls?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. You did not see the shots but they sounded as
23 though they were coming from that direction. Could
24 they in fact have come from another direction?
25 A. I do not think so, no.
1 Q. Do you have a distinct recollection now of
2 hearing those shots coming from that direction?
3 A. I do, yeah.
4 Q. Was it live fire?
5 A. It was, yes.
6 Q. You then say that you decided to make your
7 way to Joseph Place?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And you made your way to the position you
10 have marked as M on a map. That is near to the steps
11 that go up to Fahan Street?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Is that right?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. You distinctly remember hearing the pinging
16 sound of bullets hitting the wall above your head and
17 you remember seeing dirt and concrete chipping away.
18 You were sitting down with your back to the
19 wall, facing the back of the houses at Joseph Place and
20 could see dirt flying over your head and you heard five
21 or six shots?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. I would like to ask you look at another
24 photograph. Could we have P721, please.
25 I would like to ask you for the moment to
1 concentrate on the background of this picture. Does
2 that show the wall against which you were sitting?
3 A. No, that is not the wall I was talking
4 about. The wall I was talking about was a wall behind
5 the houses at Joseph's Place.
6 Q. The gable wall itself?
7 A. No, there is a wall that runs along the back
8 of Joseph's Place.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Would it be the continuation
10 of the wall we can see on this photograph?
11 A. Yes, that would go on --
12 LORD SAVILLE: Going off to the right of the
13 photograph?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 LORD SAVILLE: You were further over to the
16 right. Were you actually behind the houses of
17 Joseph Place when you were there?
18 A. Yeah, I was.
19 LORD SAVILLE: The bullets were hitting that
20 wall?
21 A. No, the top, above us.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Would that have been above the
23 houses in Joseph Place? I am wondering how they
24 managed to hit that wall?
25 A. No, there is an alleyway that goes to the
1 back of Joseph's Place which slopes up, which looks up
2 on to the walls.
3 LORD SAVILLE: I think we could probably find
4 you a photograph that shows that alleyway, taken from
5 walls, I think, that one.
6 MR ELIAS: Does P204 help?
7 MS McGAHEY: We can see on this picture,
8 Mr Kearney, Fahan Street steps here. An alleyway runs
9 behind the houses of Joseph Place.
10 I wonder if I could try another photograph
11 which might show the alleyway more easily. Could we
12 have P207.
13 The wall I showed you a moment ago,
14 Mr Kearney, is there. (Indicating). The alleyway runs
15 behind the houses of Joseph Place, under the stanchions
16 and along in this direction?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Were you in the alleyway itself?
19 A. Yeah, I was.
20 Q. You tell us that there were bullets hitting
21 the wall above your head?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. From which direction were they hitting it?
24 A. I assumed they were coming from there,
25 because they were coming this, this way here.
1 Q. They were hitting the wall that faced the
2 city walls?
3 A. No, no, they were hitting the wall above us,
4 which was just here.
5 MR TOOHEY: I wonder, could you pursue this
6 a little further with Mr Kearney, because the position
7 he places himself on the map rather puts him with his
8 back against the wall that is the continuation of the
9 wall that emerges between Blocks 2 and 3, but
10 I understood him a moment ago to say he was actually
11 sitting in the alleyway, which would put him very close
12 indeed to the back of the houses.
13 MS McGAHEY: Could we have P764, please.
14 Mr Kearney, you can see on the left-hand side
15 of the picture the Fahan Street steps that run up on
16 the left-hand side and the continuation of the wall
17 that I showed you in the first photograph that we can
18 see runs along the back. The map that you marked
19 suggests you were sitting somewhere along that wall;
20 your evidence now suggests you were in fact in the
21 alleyway that we can see?
22 A. That is the wall I was talking about in the
23 statement.
24 Q. Is that the wall at the back or the wall of
25 the alleyway?
1 A. This wall in the alleyway goes on, it goes on
2 up, there is a concrete wall which goes into a slope
3 then, which is directly behind the houses.
4 Q. When you are in the alleyway, if you were
5 looking towards Free Derry Corner, you imagine standing
6 in the alleyway and looking down towards the south,
7 towards the Walker Monument?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You would have a wall on the left-hand side
10 and the fences of gardens on the right-hand side?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. The back of Joseph Place?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Was it those garden walls that were being hit
15 by bullets or the wall on the other side, the wall
16 between you and the car park?
17 A. The wall between us and the car park.
18 Q. Was it your opinion that the shots were
19 coming from the city walls?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. So if the bullets were hitting that wall, you
22 would not have been able to see that, would you?
23 A. We did not see the bullets hit, we did not
24 see the bullets hit. There was concrete and dust above
25 our heads.
1 Q. You have told us there was dirt and concrete
2 chipping away?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Was that from the top of the wall?
5 A. Top of the wall, yeah.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 If we go back to your statement at AK1.10 and
8 paragraphs 26 to 29, you tell us that you remember
9 hearing five or six shots above your head. Did they
10 all appear to come from the same direction?
11 A. As I said, yes.
12 Q. You then tell us that you left this area and
13 in paragraph 29, when you were in the St Columb's Wells
14 area, you looked over to Free Derry Corner and could
15 see a Red Cross car?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Was this a civilian car or an army car?
18 A. This was a civilian car.
19 Q. Was it an ambulance?
20 A. No, I do not think it was, I think it was --
21 as far as I can remember, it was a car just with a Red
22 Cross which was helping out the Knights of Malta.
23 Q. Was it, as far as you knew, an official
24 Knights of Malta vehicle?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you know anything about that car?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You have told us that in 1972 you made two
4 other statements. I would like to ask you to turn to
5 the first one that you recall making, AK1.12. You have
6 told us that you do not remember the circumstances in
7 which you made this?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. What you tell us in that statement is that
10 you were standing in William Street; you moved back
11 over the Back Lane with the crowd, then to
12 Rossville Street and then you say:
13 "Five Paratroopers were in empty house and
14 were calling 'Fenian bastards'. They started shooting
15 at this time. A man was shot, also a youth, so we got
16 out of the way."
17 Do you have any recollection now of the
18 incident you were describing?
19 A. No, I cannot mind making that statement
20 either, I specified that.
21 Q. By the time you got to Chamberlain Street the
22 Paratroopers had moved in from William Street to the
23 flats:
24 "A man was dragged and kicked around William
25 Street by soldiers."
1 You have told us when you made your statement
2 you have no recollection of that either, is that still
3 the case?
4 A. It is, yes.
5 Q. You also appear to have made another
6 statement. I understand you have had an opportunity
7 this morning to listen to a tape --
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. -- that was played to you. We have the
10 transcript of that tape at AK1.15. Do you now have any
11 recollection of giving a taped interview?
12 A. It has been a long time, but it sounds like
13 me, it really does sound like me at that time.
14 Q. Do you recall giving the interview?
15 A. No, I do not recall it, no.
16 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by an
17 American lady?
18 A. I do not.
19 Q. In this statement you describe the gas and
20 the water cannon. You say:
21 "That pushed us back into the lane and we
22 were in the laneway, we moved around the lane. We seen
23 the Paratroopers coming in and between the gas you
24 could hear the shots and we went round a lane into
25 Chamberlain Street and we seen men getting pulled round
1 the lane and kicked."
2 Does that bring back any recollections at
3 all?
4 A. It does a wee bit. The bit about the men
5 getting kicked and that, which I said in my first
6 statement I could not mind, but when I was getting
7 -- I heard the tape already, it really sounded like
8 me.
9 Q. What do you remember happening?
10 A. Vaguely I do not mind the men getting -- now
11 at this stage in time I do not mind the men getting
12 pulled round the lane and getting kicked, but
13 everything else is near enough.
14 Q. You then describe Father Daly going out to
15 gave a man the last rites:
16 "We were stuck in the corner. We could not
17 move."
18 Were you in fact referring to the area behind
19 the low wall?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. "They were at the corner of Chamberlain
22 Street, still shooting. A man ran out to help the
23 priest and held his hands up and while he is holding
24 his hands up a burst of automatic fire hit him in the
25 hip."
1 Do you now recall hearing automatic fire?
2 A. Several shots, yeah.
3 Q. Is that in the car park itself?
4 A. Sorry?
5 Q. Is that while you were in the car park?
6 A. Yeah, correct, yeah.
7 Q. Do you have any idea of the direction from
8 which that automatic fire came?
9 A. I assumed they came from the direction of the
10 Chamberlain Street and where the fence was, in that
11 area where the soldiers was.
12 Q. Could you actually tell the direction from
13 which it was coming?
14 A. I could not tell the direction, but there was
15 flats behind me and they could not have been coming
16 from there.
17 Q. Why could the three shots not have been
18 coming from there?
19 A. Why should they be? The man was standing up.
20 Q. I am asking you only to tell us what you can
21 remember. If you think back to hiding behind that low
22 wall, thinking of hearing that rapid fire?
23 A. Why I thought they were coming from there,
24 because the soldier at the corner of Chamberlain Street
25 was in a firing position.
1 Q. That was the only reason?
2 A. Well, you know, the priest was giving the
3 last rites to the man, I cannot see anybody going to be
4 shooting in that direction. Mr Bridge was near them at
5 the time.
6 Q. You go on then to say that that man was
7 dragged away. You crawled along a wall, a small wall,
8 to get out of the road:
9 "... and while we were crawling I could just
10 see a piece of us, they kept shooting and there was
11 a car there that they took target practice at."
12 Do you remember now there being a car in the
13 car park of the Rossville Flats?
14 A. I think there was an old car up near the
15 playing area. They were -- seemed to be hitting that,
16 you know.
17 Q. Near to the playing area?
18 A. Yeah, towards the wall, at the far end of the
19 wall.
20 Q. Towards the entrance between Blocks 2 and 3?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Could you describe that car at all?
23 A. Not really, not at this stage in time, no.
24 Q. Did you see anybody around it or near it?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You go on:
2 "We moved on round until the shops and we
3 seen four bodies lying. We thought they were lying for
4 cover."
5 Then you go on, you describe a man who was
6 obviously Mr McGuigan.
7 Do you have any recollection now of seeing
8 any more people than Mr McGuigan?
9 A. I can mind now, when I seen the photograph of
10 Mr McGuigan, a lot of people -- all I can mind is
11 looking at Mr McGuigan. That is something that will
12 always stick out in my mind and that is about it.
13 Q. Do you remember, as you were in the alleyway
14 of Joseph Place, seeing anybody there lying on the
15 ground who appeared to be injured?
16 A. I cannot mind that, no.
17 Q. Thank you very much, those are all my
18 questions.
19 Questioned by MR PETER CLARKE
20 MR CLARKE: Mr Kearney, to your left. My
21 name is Clarke, I appear on behalf of a number of the
22 soldiers.
23 Two matters, sir: did you know most of
24 John Friel's family?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Do you remember whether there was an uncle or
2 any relative of his called Patsy Friel?
3 A. No, I cannot, no.
4 Q. Do you remember Patsy or a Patrick Friel?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What I want to show you, if I may, just in
7 case you can help us, is a photograph -- I will show
8 you where it is first, could we have P205?
9 It is the corner of Blocks 2 and 3. What we
10 are about to look at, Mr Kearney, is in this direction,
11 a photograph taken looking at that wall, all right?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. I am not suggesting you were there -- indeed,
14 you did not go through that gap at all, did you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. That is actually the rough direction of the
17 car that you felt they were using as target practice
18 was, it was in that corner, was it not?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. If you just bear in mind we are going to be
21 looking at that wall. Could we go to P711, please.
22 You will see three people. Could we enlarge
23 the person on the right. Is that person a person you
24 recognise at all?
25 A. No.
1 Q. It could be someone called Patrick Friel, but
2 not necessarily; it means nothing at all?
3 A. It means nothing at all, no.
4 Q. Sir, the only other matter is, if we look at
5 EP4.11 again, you are not sure, but you feel it could
6 be a bottle in your hand; it certainly has the
7 dimensions of a bottle?
8 A. Yeah, and of a brick, too.
9 Q. That is quite a narrow brick; are you not
10 holding the neck of something?
11 A. Sorry?
12 Q. Are you not holding the neck of something?
13 A. Could be, yes. I have two hands, sure.
14 Q. The only reason I am asking is, I do not want
15 to go through every riot you may have been on, but was
16 this not unusual, that you would be approaching
17 a barricade with something to throw?
18 A. Well, if you are rioting, yeah, it would not
19 be unusual, no.
20 Q. It was perfectly common at that stage?
21 A. Uh-huh, uh-huh.
22 Q. If it were a bottle, is that something you
23 would have taken with you on the march?
24 A. I would not think so, no.
25 Q. Were bottles available near the junction of
1 William Street and Rossville Street to throw at the
2 barricades?
3 A. Not necessarily. You just lifted whatever
4 was lying there.
5 Q. I accept that entirely, that there were items
6 that could be had there, but unbroken bottles, were
7 they freely available?
8 A. I would not really know, you know. It was
9 lying there, yeah, there could have been a bottle lying
10 there. There was stones, there was rubble.
11 Q. The reason I ask is: do you know, because you
12 may, how is a soldier behind a barricade to know
13 whether that bottle has not got acid or petrol in it
14 when it is being carried by a rioter? Is there any
15 obvious way that you remember, that there was some code
16 or some behaviour that would reassure soldiers that
17 they were not about to have petrol thrown at them?
18 A. I would not think so, no.
19 Q. If you are approaching the barricade with
20 a bottle, it really could be an acid bomb or a petrol
21 bomb, could it not?
22 A. If it was an acid bomb or if it was a petrol
23 bomb, if you say I am holding it by the neck, it would
24 be kinda silly to hold it like that, would it not.
25 Looking at it now, it does look like a
1 mineral bottle or something.
2 Q. It does look like a bottle though, does it
3 not?
4 A. Yeah, it does.
5 Q. Thank you, sir.
6 A. You are welcome.
7 MS McGAHEY: I have no further questions,
8 sir.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Kearney, thank you very
10 much indeed for coming here to help us, thank you.
11 We will stop now, because I think the person
12 who was supposed to come this morning, Mr McGilloway,
13 has not in fact turned up. We will start again after
14 lunch with Mr Bradley, but he is not due to arrive at
15 the hall until 12.30. We will start at quarter to 1.00
16 again.
17 (11.55 am)
18 (The luncheon adjournment)
19 (12.50 pm)
20 LORD SAVILLE: Despite some great efforts by
21 Madden & Finucane and other solicitors, we were unable
22 to gather together any witnesses for Thursday. I thank
23 them for their efforts. We may be able to slot those
24 witnesses in at a later stage, but at the moment it
25 seems we will finish taking evidence this side of
1 Christmas tomorrow.
2 MR MARTIN BRADLEY, sworn
3 Questioned by MR RAWAT
4 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Bradley, if you look to
5 your right you can see who is talking to you. I say
6 this to all the witnesses, I am going to say it to you:
7 I am the Chairman. The questions will come from the
8 barristers in front of me. Could you remember to keep
9 fairly close to that microphone in front of you and
10 then we will all be able to hear what you have to say?
11 MR RAWAT: Mr Bradley, do you have with you a
12 copy of your statement to this Inquiry?
13 A. I have, yes.
14 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
15 the best of your knowledge and belief?
16 A. They are.
17 Q. We have all had the opportunity to read your
18 statement and I want to ask you some supplementary
19 questions today. Can we start off by putting your map
20 on the screen, it is at AB64.6: before I ask you some
21 questions, I want to summarise some of your evidence.
22 If you want we will keep the map on the screen, but if
23 you want to follow with your statement, Mr Bradley.
24 I am picking it up at paragraph 5.
25 When the march took place on 30th January you
1 came down William Street, and you say in paragraph 5
2 that you think you saw soldiers in a building you have
3 marked with the letter "A".
4 In paragraph 7 you say that by the time you
5 reached the derelict building you believe that a shot
6 had been fired in the area, although you did not hear
7 it, but you remember people having to run across the
8 open section, or the section of William Street in front
9 of the opening to the wasteground. I think you have
10 marked that with the arrow on the map.
11 But subsequently, as you say in paragraph 9
12 which is on the next page, you describe being in an
13 area of wasteground you have marked "B" on the map and
14 hearing talk of two people being shot and being told
15 that they had been taken to the Shiels' house. You
16 have marked that with the letter "C". I think you were
17 around the area of the Shiels' house for some time, but
18 then you subsequently went to the point you have marked
19 "D", which is just on the corner of Rossville Street
20 and William Street.
21 To stay with the map, thereafter you moved
22 back to point "E", which is behind Kells Walk; that is
23 where you met and spoke to Eibhlin Lafferty?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Staying with the map again, when you were in
1 the area of the derelict building and moving up to that
2 derelict building, were there still a lot of marchers
3 in William Street?
4 A. To my memory, yes, I do not know exactly what
5 you mean by "a lot", you know, because the march was
6 fairly well spread out. There were still people
7 around, I think at that time.
8 Q. To your recollection was William Street
9 packed with people?
10 A. Do you mean before or after we reached that
11 point?
12 Q. I am talking about the time when you were
13 reaching point "A".
14 A. Point "A".
15 Q. That is the derelict building. You are
16 walking down William Street. You are having to run
17 across that gap. In that time from point "A" to
18 getting to point "B", do you recall that
19 William Street was crowded with people?
20 A. To my memory, yes.
21 Q. Can I now show you AB64.7, please. It is a
22 little difficult to read, but can we highlight from the
23 top down to the third paragraph? This is a statement
24 that you made in 1972. The address has been redacted
25 for the purposes of display on the screen, but it
1 describes your occupation then as "laboratory
2 technician" and gives an address in Creggan Broadway.
3 Do you recognise this statement?
4 A. Uh-huh. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Do you recall making a statement?
6 A. I recall making a statement, yes.
7 Q. We believe that you would have made it to the
8 Civil Rights Association who, we know in the days
9 following Bloody Sunday, tried to collect statements
10 from members of the local population.
11 Do you remember where you made the statement?
12 A. I cannot really remember the exact location.
13 I remember making the statement, but I cannot remember
14 the exact location, no.
15 Q. You went along somewhere, sat down and told
16 someone what you could remember?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And they wrote it down?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If we look at it what it says is:
21 "I was at Porter's Shop when the marchers
22 started."
23 A. Could I stop you there? I read that as:
24 "I was at Porter's Shop when the marchers
25 stopped."
1 Q. "I was at Porter's Shop when the marchers
2 stopped. I saw the spray of the water wagon (dye).
3 Gas was fired and the crowd moved back. I moved too
4 onto the wasteground facing Porter's. One shouted
5 'Charge the army barricade' and a number moved towards
6 Little James Street but were repulsed. Gas was fired
7 again and also a blue smoke cannister which seemed to
8 fall short of the crowd."
9 Do you recall getting as far as Porter's
10 Shop, which is beyond the junction of William Street
11 and Rossville Street? It is on the other side of that
12 junction; do you recall getting as far as that?
13 A. I do not actually.
14 Q. If we carry on: what you describe in parts
15 I have read is seeing the rioting and the crowd moving
16 towards Little James Street where we know there was an
17 army barrier, and you have given a similar account in
18 your statement to this Inquiry, but if we go on to the
19 second paragraph, if I read that out:
20 "Then the gas was drifting up William Street
21 and everybody moved away -- the vast majority over
22 Rossville Street and the rest up William Street.
23 I moved up William Street and passing the first
24 wasteground on the right-hand side, more rubber bullets
25 were fired from there. I moved to the gap on the
1 left-hand side with the rest of the crowd. I was
2 standing beside Kells Walk and met Jim McDaid. We
3 stayed for a few minutes recovering from the gas."
4 Do you remember meeting Jim McDaid?
5 A. Reading this now, I probably do, you know.
6 I could not say for definite that I do, but -- no, this
7 Jim McDaid is a Jim McDaid that I worked with at that
8 time in DuPont.
9 Q. Was it the same Jim McDaid who was a member
10 of the Knights of Malta?
11 A. No, it was not, no.
12 Q. He was just dressed in civilian clothes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But do you actually recall meeting him today?
15 A. Well, I can say, yes. When I read this now,
16 I mean it is familiar. He was a personal friend of
17 mine at the time, I worked with him.
18 Q. The primary reason I wanted to show you this
19 statement from 1972 was the next paragraph because, as
20 best as we can place you, you would have been at this
21 time beside Kells Walk.
22 What you say in that next paragraph is:
23 "Four shots rang out -- the report was a lot
24 sharper than rubber bullets. Someone shouted that
25 there was a young lad shot and I saw him being carried
1 into a house in ...", and it has been overtyped, but we
2 can see, it is off the screen, if one looks at the page
3 there has been the addition of the words "Columbcille",
4 so it would read:
5 "... in Columbcille Court. The crowd surged
6 round the door. We stayed around the house. I heard
7 another shot ricochet off the wall. Everybody vacated
8 the area and we entered the courtyard behind
9 Columbcille Court where I met Sean O'Gallagher and his
10 wife Jean. I met a Knights of Malta worker --
11 Eibhlin Lafferty -- and asked how the young boy was
12 (whom I had seen carried into Shiels')."
13 That ties in, to some extent, with what you
14 have told the Inquiry in your statement. You mention
15 in your statement to this Inquiry meeting
16 Sean O'Gallagher and his wife and meeting
17 Eibhlin Lafferty, and you mention being in the area of
18 the Shiels' house.
19 The question I wanted to ask you was: do you
20 remember four shots ringing out?
21 A. Now I do not.
22 Q. Or hearing another shot ricochet off a wall?
23 A. (Witness shaking head). No, I do not think
24 so, no.
25 Q. Can I take you back, please, to your more
1 recent statement, AB64.2, paragraphs 10 and 11? This
2 is picking it up after you had reached point "B" on
3 your map, so that wasteground which you have marked on
4 the map with the letter "B" -- it will be easier if we
5 have paragraphs 9 to 11 -- you have a memory of
6 scrambling over rubble and ending up in an area of
7 wasteground marked "B":
8 "I stood around there for a short time.
9 There was a crowd of people milling around taking cover
10 close to the wall of the laundry at the southeast
11 corner of the wasteground. I did not hear any shooting
12 at that time."
13 You describe in paragraph 10 hearing of
14 someone being shot and wounded and the air of
15 expectation in the crowd:
16 "I remember hearing from the people around,
17 but I do not know exactly who, that they were waiting
18 for someone with a handgun to appear, who was going to
19 fire back on the army. I do not remember seeing anyone
20 coming with a gun."
21 Picking up that last sentence I have read,
22 was this in the crowd who were sheltering close to the
23 wall of the laundry in the southeast corner?
24 A. Sorry, could you explain that again; was what
25 in the crowd?
1 Q. You say you heard from the people around,
2 "but I do not know exactly who, that they were waiting
3 for someone with a handgun to appear"?
4 A. Are you asking me were they waiting for the
5 person to come from the crowd?
6 Q. No, were these people the same crowd who you
7 say were milling close to the wall of the laundry in
8 the southeast corner of the wasteground?
9 A. I think they must have been, yes.
10 Q. Did they say where this person was going to
11 come from?
12 A. No.
13 Q. This would presumably have been someone from
14 the IRA; did they say whether it was the Provisional
15 wing or the Official wing of the IRA?
16 A. No, but the -- my memory is that it was just
17 someone or somebody, no names, no organisations
18 mentioned.
19 Q. Were people advising each other to get out of
20 the way?
21 A. No. You mean leave that area?
22 Q. If someone was going to open fire on the army
23 with a handgun, that would obviously be rather
24 dangerous; were people giving advice to get out of the
25 way and leave the area?
1 A. Not to my knowledge, no, I cannot remember
2 that.
3 Q. What you do say in paragraph 11, you remember
4 someone in the crowd pointing out a bullet hole in the
5 drainpipe above you:
6 "I think it would have been the drainpipe
7 down the side of the laundry. The bullet hole was well
8 above head height. I was told that the bullet had been
9 fired by the soldiers who were on the other side of
10 William Street."
11 Could I show you, please, P201: that is the
12 wasteground that you came through. The Shiels' house
13 would be about here. So the southeast corner, about
14 here. That is where you remember a crowd gathering
15 close to that wall in the southeast corner of the
16 wasteground.
17 I think the laundry you are referring to is
18 the Castle Laundry, which is this building here; do you
19 remember that?
20 A. Um, vaguely.
21 Q. Would I be right, in your recollection of
22 pointing out that building as the Castle Laundry?
23 A. Yes, I think it was.
24 Q. That is the building on the east side of the
25 piece of wasteground we have been describing as the
1 laundry wasteground. It is a little unclear on the
2 screen, but just to make sure you orientate yourself
3 because I put the arrow in the slightly wrong position,
4 can you see this sort of box there? That is in fact a
5 burnt-out lorry, so the wall would be about here where
6 the drainpipe would be.
7 What I would like you to try and help us with
8 is whereabouts the drainpipe was. You may not be able,
9 certainly from the view of this camera taking this
10 picture, we cannot see the wall, but would it have been
11 a wall running on the eastern side of the laundry waste
12 ground, so running in that direction?
13 A. My memory is that it would have been a wall
14 running, yes, that direction.
15 Q. Would the drainpipe have been closer to
16 William Street or closer to Columbcille Court?
17 A. It would have been closer to
18 Columbcille Court.
19 Q. Could you try and mark the approximate
20 position where one would -- if you cannot do it, say
21 so?
22 A. It would be practically impossible for me,
23 you know, from this angle and from the memory and
24 I would not like to mislead anybody.
25 Q. You have told us there was a crowd in the
1 southeast corner, that is around where the drainpipe
2 would be?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can we move on, please, to AB64.3, paragraphs
5 14 to 17? This is now, for your own reference, you are
6 now at point "E", it is just behind Kells Walk on your
7 map and that is where you met Sean Gallagher and his
8 wife and Eibhlin Lafferty.
9 If we look at paragraph 15 you say:
10 "I was simply standing around chatting to
11 people for between 15 to 20 minutes before we heard a
12 shout 'They are coming in'. I thought to myself that
13 it was a snatch squad which I was used to. About a
14 dozen of us moved towards a nearby house on the east
15 side of Columbcille Court."
16 In paragraph 16 you say:
17 "When we were at the doorway, or just on our
18 way in, there was what I can only describe as an
19 'Explosion' of high velocity shots. I remember
20 thinking that the shots were so loud they must have
21 been very close."
22 Going back again to paragraph 15, you are
23 standing behind Kells Walk. Let us do it by reference
24 to your map. Could we put AB64.6 back on the screen?
25 That is where you were standing, the approximate area
1 you were standing talking to Sean Gallagher, his wife
2 and Eibhlin Lafferty, but when you heard shouts were
3 there a lot of people standing around in that area at
4 the time?
5 A. There were a number of people. It was not
6 packed, for example, you know, there could have been.
7 There were dozens of people, let us say, because by
8 that time I think the march had moved over towards
9 Free Derry Corner, people were simply, at that point,
10 standing talking and chatting.
11 Q. You say, "we heard a shout 'They are coming
12 in'"; did that cause people to start running?
13 A. It did, yes.
14 Q. And you say you thought it would be a snatch
15 squad. After you had heard the shouts of "they are
16 coming in", did you hear the sound of army vehicles at
17 all?
18 A. I have no memory of that.
19 Q. The memory you have, as you describe it in
20 paragraph 16, is hearing this explosion of high
21 velocity shots and then getting into the house. Do you
22 recall hearing the sound of army vehicles after you had
23 heard that explosion of high velocity shots?
24 A. I have no memory.
25 Q. You sheltered in that house in
1 Columbcille Court, and you have marked it with the
2 letter "F", and in the course of sheltering there you
3 saw a long line of arrestees being brought past the
4 house. You describe that in paragraph 19.
5 Subsequently, as you say in paragraph 20,
6 during a lull in the shooting you decided to make a
7 move and there was a small boy in the house, who was
8 aged about 10 or 11, and you took him by the hand and
9 said "I will get you out" and you walked out, as you
10 say in paragraph 20 "with my heart in my mouth". You
11 walked out and made your way out of Columbcille Court.
12 You say in paragraph 22 that you cannot
13 remember your exact route, but you think you may have
14 been at one point in front of Abbey Park, but
15 subsequently you reached the bottom of Westland Street
16 at a point you have marked as "G" on the map. We
17 cannot see it there because it is expanded. It is a
18 rather poor map, but there is "G" at the bottom of
19 Westland Street. That would be just about a point
20 opposite the Bogside Inn, would it not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could we now put up, please, paragraphs 24
23 and 25 on AB64.4? In paragraph 24 you say that around
24 the point marked G on the map:
25 "... with people milling around in a state
1 of shock, I remember talking to two people in
2 particular. I did not know them."
3 One, you say, had a gouged wound in his
4 head. He was able to stand and talk.
5 At that time when you were at the bottom of
6 Westland Street, were there quite a few people in the
7 area?
8 A. Yes, there would have been.
9 Q. Can you give us an idea of how many?
10 A. Again, it could have been dozens, 20s, you
11 know. I would not say there was a huge crowd.
12 Q. Certainly more than a handful?
13 A. I think so, yes.
14 Q. At this time could you hear any shooting at
15 all or was it all quiet?
16 A. I think it was all quiet at that time.
17 Q. Looking at paragraph 25 you say:
18 "At that point, two cars arrived, either on
19 Westland Street or down the Lecky Road from the
20 direction of the Creggan. I am not sure but they may
21 have been yellow or cream in colour. I remember that
22 both cars were full of people. The people got out;
23 they had a certain presence about them. I knew them to
24 be members of the IRA. I could not honestly say
25 whether they were armed at the time. They asked people
1 what had happened and just walked around trying to take
2 it in, not really believing what they saw."
3 The two cars you have described as being
4 packed full of people, do you remember what make of car
5 they were?
6 A. I think I remember it may have been either
7 something like an Avenger or possibly a Ford Cortina,
8 but, I mean, again, I am not 100 per cent sure.
9 Q. This may show my complete ignorance of makes
10 of cars; do you remember whether they had four doors?
11 A. Yes, they would have had four doors.
12 Q. Do you recall whether these cars had number
13 plates or tax discs?
14 A. I was not that close to see whether they had
15 tax discs. I do not imagine they would have had, being
16 the situation that it was.
17 Q. You say you knew them to be members of the
18 IRA, the people who got out; how many people got out?
19 A. Well, if, if you imagine say, five to a car,
20 let us say.
21 Q. Did they all get out of the cars?
22 A. My memory is that they did.
23 Q. And you could not see any weapons on any of
24 them?
25 A. (Witness shaking head) No.
1 Q. What was it that made makes you say you knew
2 they were members of the IRA?
3 A. It would have been the cars.
4 Q. Did you know any of these people?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you know which wing of the IRA they were
7 from?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Can I take you, please, to paragraph 27:
10 "Before the march, there had been general
11 talk about the IRA keeping away from the area."
12 Do you mean by that, "general talk" within
13 the local community?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you say, "the IRA keeping away from the
16 area", does that refer to a particular wing of the IRA?
17 A. Not really, I do not think, no. There was no
18 impression that it was any particular wing. I mean the
19 IRA, it just meant the IRA.
20 Q. You continue:
21 "The talk was that, with so many on the
22 march, the army may use it as an opportunity to invade
23 the Creggan. We were told that the IRA would mount
24 guard in the Creggan. I had not seen any members of
25 the IRA that I knew on the march during the day."
1 Am I to take it from that last sentence that
2 you did not recognise anybody on the march who you knew
3 to be a member of the IRA?
4 A. No, I think that what I mean by that is, what
5 I do mean by it is that there were no obvious IRA men
6 on the march, you know, there was nobody armed or in
7 any sort of uniform or masks or ...
8 Q. Had you been on marches prior to
9 Bloody Sunday?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Had you seen members of the IRA on those
12 marches?
13 A. No.
14 Q. It does not mean there were people that you
15 actually knew by name, that is not what you mean by
16 that sentence?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I take it you did not actually know any
19 members of the IRA by name?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr Bradley. Those are all my
22 questions.
23 Questioned by MR BRADLY
24 MR BRADLY: Mr Bradley, I represent some of
25 the soldiers. I want to ask you a little more about
1 the two cars you saw. When you were asked how you knew
2 the people in the cars to have been members of the IRA
3 your answer was, "it was just the cars"; what was it
4 about the cars that gave you the knowledge that these
5 people were members of the IRA?
6 A. Well, at that time a lot of hijacked cars
7 were used by the IRA in the Creggan, the no-go areas
8 and they, they would have been that type of car, you
9 know, I am sure there were not that many cars about at
10 that time. A lot of them were hijacked cars with, say,
11 Belfast registrations, you know, they just had a look.
12 It is hard to explain really, but -- I mean, it is
13 really hard to explain, it is just the look of the car,
14 you just knew the car was, say, a hijacked car, or
15 whatever.
16 Q. You knew it was a hijacked car?
17 A. I would not say I knew they were hijacked
18 cars, but that was the type of car that would have been
19 used.
20 Q. Would you look again with me, please, at
21 paragraph 25 of your statement on AB64.4, just the last
22 line of the paragraph, Mr Bradley:
23 "I knew them to be members of the IRA"; are
24 you sure you are not saying in that statement that you
25 recognised these people who got out of the cars as
1 members of the IRA?
2 A. No, because I did not recognise them.
3 Q. Your paragraph 12, please, on AB64.2,
4 Mr Bradley, four lines up from the bottom of that
5 paragraph:
6 "I saw a BBC reporter walk out of the house";
7 this is the Shiels' house in Columbcille Court, you
8 will remember:
9 "It may have been Peter Taylor, but I am not
10 sure."
11 Mr Bradley, why do you think it may have been
12 Peter Taylor?
13 A. I have seen Peter Taylor since and I have a
14 memory of a person, of a BBC reporter -- I assumed BBC
15 -- coming out of that house at that time and later on
16 when I saw Peter Taylor I made a connection between the
17 two. You know, I think it may have been him, they had
18 the same sort of appearance.
19 Q. Sir, I am very grateful.
20 MR RAWAT: Sir, I have no additional
21 questions.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Bradley, thank you very
23 much indeed for coming here to help us.
24 A. Thank you.
25 (The witness withdrew)
1 LORD SAVILLE: While we are waiting,
2 Ms McGahey, do we have a list for tomorrow?
3 MS McGAHEY: Yes, we have, sir. There is one
4 alteration from the published list: Mr Melarkey, who
5 was to give evidence tomorrow, has of course given
6 evidence this morning. The list tomorrow will be:
7 James Ferry, AF13; James McCafferty, AM60; James Quinn,
8 AQ10; and Anthony McCallion AM65.
9 MR GABRIEL CAMPBELL, affirmed
10 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
11 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Campbell, I can see you
12 looking at me. I say this to all the witnesses: I am
13 the Chairman, the questions will come from the
14 barristers, the people in front of me. Could you get a
15 bit closer to that microphone? You can pull it towards
16 you, if you like. Remain fairly close to it so we can
17 hear what you have to say.
18 MS McGAHEY: Mr Campbell, do you have with
19 you a copy of the statement that you made to this
20 Inquiry and signed on 4th June 1999?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. I understand there is one correction you
23 would like to make. Could we have on the screen,
24 please, AC11.3, paragraph 18? You say in that
25 paragraph:
1 "I walked around behind Kells Walk and into
2 the general area of Columbcille Court. Somewhere
3 around grid reference J11, I believe I saw about three
4 bodies lying on the ground in different locations."
5 In fact I understand you would like to make
6 it clear you walked around quite a large area in
7 Columbcille Court, Glenfada Park, Rossville Street and
8 William Street, and your recollection now is that the
9 bodies could have been anywhere in that area?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Subject to that correction, are the contents
12 of this statement true to the best of your knowledge
13 and belief?
14 A. Yes, they are.
15 Q. I would like to go back, please, to the first
16 page of your statement and to paragraph 4. You tell us
17 that you did not go on the march, in fact you came back
18 into Derry at about quarter to 5. You saw an army
19 officer and a police officer standing talking on the
20 corner of Strand Road and Great James Street?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. If we go over the page to paragraph 8,
23 please, you tell us that there was another man there, a
24 civilian whom you knew by name. He was a Protestant
25 who lived in the Waterside and later became involved in
1 politics. He was then in his mid-twenties and you do
2 not wish to identify him.
3 I understand it is still the position today
4 that you do not wish to identify him publicly?
5 A. That is still the position, yes.
6 Q. Would you be willing to write his name down
7 on a piece of paper for us?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Can you tell us why that is?
10 A. Not particularly, no reason why, just I do
11 not think it is any significant value releasing the
12 man's name.
13 Q. It may be if he is still alive, but the
14 Inquiry would wish to contact him and see whether he
15 has any evidence that would be of value to this
16 Inquiry.
17 A. If I write down his name, possibly he does
18 not want to be known or he could deny it.
19 LORD SAVILLE: If you look to your right,
20 Mr Campbell, you will see me, the Chairman again. What
21 we are asking you to do is to write his name down. We
22 would then probably try and contact him. If he had
23 reasonable fears about his personal safety he could
24 apply to us to give his evidence anonymously, as has
25 happened with a number of people.
1 You do understand, the reason we are asking
2 you these questions is because we are here to find the
3 whole of the truth about Bloody Sunday and so we want
4 to talk to anybody who we believe may be able to help
5 us, that is what would happen.
6 If you gave us his name, we would try and get
7 in touch with him. If he had a case for being
8 anonymous and indeed he could help us, then we would
9 treat him anonymously. He may of course, if we contact
10 him not be able to help us, in which case that would be
11 the end of it. We do ask people to give us this sort
12 of information so we can make as wide a ranging search
13 into the events of that day as we possibly can.
14 A. If I could explain it in terms that from the
15 time that I seen that gentleman until the next time
16 I seen him, there was a lapse of time, 15 years
17 roughly. So it might not be 100 per cent it is him,
18 say it is 80 or 90 per cent; is that acceptable to
19 write down his name in those circumstances?
20 LORD SAVILLE: Indeed it would and if you
21 have got the name wrong, no doubt we will discover that
22 in due course?
23 A. That is okay. I will write the name down.
24 (Pause).
25 (Handed).
1 MS McGAHEY: Thank you, Mr Campbell.
2 A. You are welcome.
3 Q. I would like to ask you now about one other
4 aspect of your statement. Could we go over the page,
5 please, to AC11.3 and back to paragraph 18? You have
6 already made a correction to this paragraph, so it is
7 no longer the case that you believe these bodies to
8 have been in the area of Kells Walk and
9 Columbcille Court, or not necessarily. You say that
10 you saw about three bodies lying on the ground in
11 different locations; does that mean that you saw one
12 each on three entirely separate occasions?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember whether any one of those was
15 close to another or whether they were all completely
16 separate?
17 A. Completely separate.
18 Q. I would like to ask you to look at a
19 photograph; could we have P199 on the screen, please?
20 This photograph, as you can see, is an aerial view
21 taken from the north, taken looking down towards Free
22 Derry Corner. You can see Rossville Street has been
23 marked, running up towards William Street; you can see
24 the Rossville Flats on the left-hand side and Free
25 Derry Corner at the top of the picture; Kells Walk is
1 the building I have marked with the yellow arrow; and
2 you can see Columbcille Court to the west of that;
3 Glenfada Park North and Glenfada Park South towards the
4 top of the picture.
5 Looking at that picture, does it give you any
6 help at all in telling us where any one of the bodies
7 was that you saw?
8 A. No help because I walked about, back and
9 forwards, and I do not want to use guesswork, I just --
10 there were bodies in different positions, but I could
11 not say exactly where.
12 Q. You were born in the Bogside, were you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you lived there for a number of years?
15 A. No, I moved from the Bogside before those
16 flats were built.
17 Q. Did you know, for example,
18 Glenfada Park North, Glenfada Park South?
19 A. Yeah, I knew the general area.
20 Q. Did you know Columbcille Court?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You tell us in your statement -- we will stay
23 with the picture for the moment -- that you walked
24 around behind Kells Walk and into the general area of
25 Columbcille Court; do you remember doing that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you might have walked through the north
3 end of Kells Walk?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Is that what you did; that is the entrance
6 way that is closest to William Street?
7 A. I may have walked there first or I may have
8 gone over in the other entrance, I could not say which
9 entrance I went in first.
10 Q. Do you remember being in the
11 Columbcille Court area?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. While you were there do you remember seeing a
14 body lying on the ground?
15 A. As I say, I was talking to groups of people
16 and whether the bodies were there or somewhere else and
17 they were talking about them, it would be speculation.
18 Q. Were all the bodies that you saw of people
19 who were dead?
20 A. I did not actually see the bodies.
21 Q. You did not --
22 A. I saw bodies covered up.
23 Q. Did you see anybody you thought was injured?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I will try one more photograph; could we have
1 P210.1, please? This photograph is taken from the
2 south looking northwards towards William Street. We
3 see William Street is running from west to east, in the
4 direction of the blue arrow. You can see the
5 Rossville Flats on the right-hand side and
6 Glenfada Park South at the bottom.
7 Looking at this picture, does that bring back
8 any recollection at all of the place in which you saw
9 any of these bodies?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were there groups of people around all of
12 these bodies?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember there being any Knights of
15 Malta or other first-aiders?
16 A. Yes, there were.
17 Q. Were those people trying to give attention to
18 those bodies?
19 A. The general impression that I got, any people
20 I had seen or people telling me about were actually
21 dead, but there was noises of ambulances but I did not
22 actually see them, so there were obviously other people
23 getting moved, whether they were dead or wounded,
24 I could not say.
25 Q. Do you have any recollection now of seeing,
1 say, the first body you saw; do you remember seeing
2 that?
3 A. Not particularly, no.
4 Q. Do you have any picture in your mind of a
5 group of people around a body?
6 A. As I say, I could point to different parts of
7 the map, but because I was just moving around talking
8 to people, trying to find out what happened, I would
9 say because the way the situation was I felt a bit numb
10 and could not understand it, very hard to comprehend
11 it, so that that is why I could not say exactly where
12 I was talking to groups of people. There were just
13 groups of people in every corner, just more or less
14 consoling each other about what happened on the day.
15 Q. Did you meet anybody that you knew?
16 A. I met people I knew, but I could not give you
17 names now at the minute because, just people I knew in
18 general.
19 Q. Thinking back to seeing any one of those
20 three bodies, do you remember seeing anybody that you
21 knew with any one of those?
22 A. No, not at the time, no.
23 Q. Thank you very much, those are all my
24 questions.
25 MR ELIAS: Sir, I have no question, but may
1 I assume that the name that has been given is not a
2 name known to the Tribunal in the sense that any
3 statement exists. If there were, of course we might
4 wish to consider that before finally disposing of this
5 witness in terms of questions.
6 MS McGAHEY: I do not believe so, but I would
7 be grateful for one moment to check.
8 (Pause).
9 Sir, following a quick check in the bundles,
10 I believe there is no statement in the bundle from that
11 individual. I am not aware of a statement having been
12 taken for this Inquiry.
13 LORD SAVILLE: We will check a bit further,
14 Mr Elias, but it sounds as though we do not have a
15 statement.
16 Mr Campbell, thank you very much indeed for
17 coming to assist us.
18 A. Welcome, sir, thank you.
19 (Witness withdrew)
20 LORD SAVILLE: That in fact exhausts our
21 witnesses for today, does it not?
22 MS McGAHEY: Yes.
23 LORD SAVILLE: We will meet again tomorrow at
24 9.30. As I say, we expect the Tribunal to finish
25 tomorrow evening.
1 MR CLARKE: Can I mention in relation it a
2 matter that arose this morning when I was asking
3 questions about barricade 15? Sir, I have to say I was
4 basing the question largely on my own assumption that
5 that was not an innovation. Can I say immediately I am
6 having that looked into at this moment. I would hope
7 to be able to give the Tribunal a firm piece of
8 information about whether that barricade had ever been
9 there before or not by tomorrow. I have to confess
10 I had assumed that it was not the first time, but
11 I think that assumption may be unfounded.
12 LORD SAVILLE: I have on my working map a
13 barrier 15 marked with a question mark in that
14 position. I think that is, at the moment, the state of
15 my knowledge, there may well have been a barrier,
16 barrier 15 at or about the position shown in that
17 photograph. What puzzled me this morning was that the
18 city wall did not look in the right place in relation
19 to Waterloo Street. I think the explanation that has
20 been given is certainly the most convincing one so far.
21 MR CLARKE: There was the one additional
22 matter which Mr Toohey mentioned, as to whether that
23 barrier had ever been there on a previous occasion.
24 That, we have a paucity of information available to us
25 immediately, but I am having inquiries made at the
1 moment.
2 MR COYLE: There is one point I could again,
3 on the same theme, assist the Tribunal with. In
4 the book "Paddy Bogside", "a dye test of the white line
5 issues" found at page 175 and following and equally a
6 photograph showing a civilian painting the white line
7 also appears within the book and hopefully that will
8 resolve the issue for you.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Very well, 9.30 tomorrow
10 morning, please.
11 (1.45 pm)
12 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on
13 Wednesday, 12th December 2001)
14 MR LIAM McCLOSKEY, sworn............................. 1
15 Questioned by MR RAWAT............................... 1
16 Questioned by MR PETER CLARKE....................... 21
17 Questioned by MR RAWAT.............................. 29
18 Questioned by MR COYLE.............................. 30
19 MR DAVID MELARKEY, sworn............................ 31
20 Questioned by MS McGAHEY............................ 31
21 Questioned by MR MALLON............................. 57
22 Questioned by MR ELIAS.............................. 63
23 MR HUGH KEARNEY, sworn.............................. 67
24 Questioned by MR PETER CLARKE....................... 96
25 MR MARTIN BRADLEY, sworn........................... 101
1 Questioned by MR RAWAT............................. 101
2 Questioned by MR BRADLY............................ 118
3 MR GABRIEL CAMPBELL, affirmed...................... 121
4 Questioned by MS McGAHEY........................... 121