1 Wednesday, 21st November 2001
2 (9.35 am)
3 MRS SADIE McGINLEY, sworn
4 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs McGinley, if you look to
6 your right you can see who is talking to you. I am the
7 Chairman of the Tribunal. I say this to all the
8 witnesses: the questions will come from the barristers,
9 the people in front of me. Could I ask you to try and
10 remember to keep pretty close to that microphone in
11 front of you. You can pull it towards you a bit if you
12 like, if it makes it more comfortable and then we will
13 all be able to hear what you have to say.
14 MR ROXBURGH: Mrs McGinley, do you have with
15 you a copy of the statement that you made to this
16 Inquiry on 24th November 1998?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
19 the best of your knowledge and belief?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. We have the first page of the statement on
22 the screen. If we look first at paragraphs 1 to 3, you
23 explain that on the day that became Bloody Sunday you
24 decided to go to Rossville Street with your daughter to
25 watch the march go past.
1 In paragraph 2 you tell us that when you
2 heard the soldiers were shooting you and your daughter
3 decided to cut through to Columbcille Court, heading
4 for your sister's flat which is marked on the plan
5 attached to your statement.
6 Then in paragraph 3 you say:
7 "As I ran into the communal staircase, where
8 the wash house was, on the ground floor, west of my
9 sister's flat, I looked south through the slats of the
10 wooden fence which formed one end of that area."
11 If we look at the plan that is attached to
12 your statement at AM242.4, and enlarge the
13 Columbcille Court area, we can see the hatched area
14 where I am pointing with a blue arrow representing your
15 sister's flat, and we can see the arrows showing the
16 route that you took round to the side of your sister's
17 flat where my second arrow is. (Marked with blue
18 arrows).
19 Is that where the slatted fence was that you
20 were looking out of?
21 A. Yes, to the right.
22 Q. To the right of, what?
23 A. The flat.
24 Q. To the right of the flat?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that to the right of the flat as you were
2 looking out. So you had the flat on your left?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I would like to show you a modern photograph
5 that has been taken. Can we look at virtual reality
6 spot 33, please. Mrs McGinley, this is a photograph
7 which we can move round. At the moment it is showing
8 the view down towards Abbey Park. If we come round
9 this way we can see part of Columbcille Court coming
10 into view. Stopping there, are you able to recognise
11 the slatted fence there that you were looking out of?
12 A. No -- oh, yes, that is, that is it there.
13 Q. We will go a little bit further round so you
14 can see the whole picture. That is part of
15 Columbcille Court there and now we are coming round
16 again so we are looking down towards Glenfada Park; do
17 you see where we are?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you were looking out through that
20 slatted fence, was your daughter with you at that time
21 as well?
22 A. Yes, she was.
23 Q. Was she also looking out through the slatted
24 fence?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So that we know who we are talking about, can
2 you tell us, please, your daughter's name?
3 A. Dominica.
4 Q. And her surname?
5 A. McGinley.
6 Q. Sometimes people change their surnames if
7 they get married or for other reasons; is she still
8 Dominica McGinley?
9 A. She is Dominica Mourne, she does not live
10 here any more.
11 Q. Can we go, please, to AM242.1, paragraphs 4
12 and 5. He tell us in paragraph 4 that you could hear
13 shooting.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you saw one particular fellow who was
16 running as hard as he could?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And his hands were pumping away and you say
19 that you think he was running from the alleyway which
20 is the alleyway connecting Glenfada Park and Abbey Park
21 and running in a northwesterly direction and you say:
22 "He seemed to be young, thin and tall ..."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "... had nothing in his hands" and you have
25 no idea precisely what age he was?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you even able to tell, for example,
3 whether he was a teenager or whether he was in his 20s
4 or his 30s or 40s, or what?
5 A. Well, I thought at that time he was about
6 over 20.
7 Q. Over 20?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In paragraph 5 you say that you heard a shot
10 and he seemed to jerk backwards and fell backwards?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you remember, were there other people
13 around him when he fell or was he on his own?
14 A. He was on his own.
15 Q. Do you remember how he landed; did he fall on
16 to his back or his side or his front, or what?
17 A. He went backwards and his hands -- his feet
18 was up like that and then they dropped down.
19 (Indicating).
20 Q. Paragraph 5 you refer to a photograph we will
21 come to in a moment. You say you thought to yourself
22 that this young man must have been shot?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you able to tell in which part of his
25 body he had been injured?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You did not see any soldiers, as you say in
3 this paragraph?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You say you think that the soldier who shot
6 him was behind the wall?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. To the west of the houses on the west side of
9 Glenfada Park North. We will have a look at that in
10 a moment to see where that was. Can we have a look
11 first at the photograph that is attached to your
12 statement at AM242.3. It is a little bit dark on the
13 screen, but we can make it lighter, I think. We can
14 see here the shallow flight of steps one running up
15 towards the block of houses in Abbey Park on the left
16 with St Eugene's cathedral in the background.
17 Is this right, that the figure here in the
18 dark clothing is in the position approximately where
19 you think this man fell? (Marked with blue arrow).
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So it was, as far as you remember, a bit
22 further on than the top of the steps, was it, or were
23 you not able to tell that precisely where he was?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Can we look again, please, at the virtual
1 reality, spot 33. There is the slatted fence. If we
2 move round now towards Abbey Park and Glenfada Park and
3 just stop there, does that show something like the view
4 that you would have had as you were looking out and
5 watching what happened to this man?
6 A. I cannot remember. It is something -- yes.
7 Q. Would this be fair, that he was quite
8 a distance away from you?
9 A. He was.
10 Q. It looks something like about 100 yards?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We can see on this photograph there is a view
13 into Glenfada Park; do you see the alleyway on the left
14 where the cars are parked?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember seeing anything happening in
17 Glenfada Park?
18 A. No.
19 Q. If we go back to your statement, paragraph 6
20 at AM242.1, you say that at some stage after you had
21 seen this you became aware of a man lying on the ground
22 to the west of Glenfada Park North at about point C.
23 You say that he was already lying there when you saw
24 him and a woman came down from one of the flats with
25 a blanket and some rosary beads.
1 Were you able to tell what sort of age this
2 man was?
3 A. No, I did not see him, I just seen him lying
4 down.
5 Q. Could you tell anything about what had
6 happened to him, whether he had been injured or the
7 nature of any injury?
8 A. No, I could not.
9 Q. You have told us that you only became aware
10 of this man after you had seen the other man fall. Is
11 it possible that the two men fell at much the same time
12 and you just did not notice the second one because you
13 had been concentrating on the first one?
14 A. As far as I was told the man that I seen
15 lying was shot before that, the man that I seen.
16 Q. The man who was waving his legs in the air,
17 do you mean, or --
18 A. The man that was lying at the left where the
19 lady came down with the rosary beads, he was shot
20 before that other man was shot.
21 Q. He was shot before?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That is something somebody told you, is it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Finally, Mrs McGinley, can I show you
1 a photograph, please, P693. There is a man, as you can
2 see, lying on the ground in that photograph. Does that
3 look at all familiar to you, that man or that scene?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs McGinley, those are
6 all my questions.
7 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
8 MR GLASGOW: Mrs McGinley, on your left. My
9 name is Glasgow and I represent many of the soldiers.
10 One matter for you: you very helpfully told the
11 Tribunal that you were told where this man had been
12 lying and the order in which you thought they had been
13 shot; was there quite a lot of conversation after
14 Bloody Sunday between people, trying to sort out
15 honestly among themselves what they thought had
16 happened and the order of events; was there quite a lot
17 of that kind of conversation?
18 A. Well, I did not stop, I went back to my
19 sister's.
20 Q. When you refer to being told by somebody, was
21 that a conversation just with you and somebody else, or
22 were there a group of people discussing it together?
23 A. It was afterwards.
24 Q. It was afterwards?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you remember how long afterwards?
2 A. A couple of days after.
3 Q. Were there meetings, little groups of people
4 discussing what had happened or was this just one
5 conversation you had with somebody else?
6 A. It was just the one conversation.
7 Q. Just the one?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you so much.
10 MR ROXBURGH: Sir, I have no further
11 questions.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs McGinley, if you look to
13 your right again. It is the Chairman again: thank you
14 very much indeed for coming here to assist us, thank
15 you.
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 MR JOSEPH THADDEUS MAHON, sworn
18 Questioned by MR CLARKE
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Mahon, I see you looking at
20 me. I say this to all the witnesses, I will say it to
21 you: I am the Chairman. The questions in the main will
22 come from the barristers, the people in front of me.
23 Could you try and remember to keep pretty close to that
24 microphone in front of you so we can all hear what you
25 have to say.
1 MR CLARKE: Mr Mahon, do you have with you
2 your statement to this Tribunal which you signed on
3 17th September 1999?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
6 the best of your knowledge and belief?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Because we have all had the opportunity of
9 reading it, I am going to ask you a number of
10 supplementary questions about some of it. You describe
11 at paragraph 6, which is at the bottom of the screen,
12 how after going to the Shiels' house you had been
13 standing around for a moment or two when you heard
14 people in the crowd around you shouting things like
15 "the Paras, they are coming in" and you describe over
16 the page, if we can go down from paragraphs 7 to 9, how
17 you walked south through Columbcille Court and into
18 Glenfada Park North.
19 If we look at paragraph 7 you describe how
20 people were often arrested in the Columbcille Court
21 area by snatch squads and that was the reason you
22 decided to move off and walk down to Glenfada Park.
23 You describe the rubble barricade across
24 Rossville Street as an invisible -- like an invisible
25 dividing line. Had you seen snatch squads come into
1 Columbcille Court before?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What about Rossville Street; had you seen
4 squads come down Rossville Street?
5 A. Just as far as the barricade.
6 Q. But you had seen them come as far as the
7 barricade, had you?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. What about Glenfada Park itself?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Never seen them there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. In paragraph 8 you describe walking through
14 Glenfada Park North, entering at the northwestern
15 corner and seeing a crowd of people gathered at the
16 south of the gable end of the eastern block and walking
17 through Glenfada Park and hearing the sound of live
18 bangs.
19 Apart from the people who were gathered at
20 the gable end, were you conscious of there being other
21 people in Glenfada Park North as you walked from the
22 northwest to the southeast?
23 A. There could have been, it was a gathering
24 point of people.
25 Q. Do you know what they were doing at this
1 stage?
2 A. Just watching, watching down Rossville
3 Street.
4 Q. You describe in paragraph 9 how as you walked
5 through the park you could hear the sound of live bangs
6 coming from the general direction of north
7 Rossville Street, but that it did not occur to you that
8 live rounds were being fired. May it be that what you
9 were hearing was rubber bullets or included rubber
10 bullets?
11 A. It could have been both.
12 Q. You describe how you reached the crowd of
13 people at the gable end wall, some of whom were still
14 thinking that rubber bullets were being fired, while
15 others thought the soldiers were firing live
16 ammunition.
17 How did you know that was what the crowd were
18 thinking; was there a discussion about what the sounds
19 were?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could we have on the screen paragraphs 10 to
22 the end. You describe in paragraph 10 standing among a
23 group of people at or close to the gable end and seeing
24 the rubble barricade where there were a few lads
25 standing to the south of it throwing stones at somebody
1 or something further north. You did not venture out to
2 get a look, but you could see some soldiers to the
3 north of Block 1, not shooting but apparently carrying
4 out an arrest operation.
5 If we look at your map at AM18.17, you have
6 circled the area where people were standing with a
7 circle at the bottom of the east block. Do
8 I understand you to be telling us that you had view
9 that enabled you to look up in that direction to where
10 you saw soldiers apparently arresting people but did
11 not come out as far as to enable you to look up
12 Rossville Street itself?
13 A. Yeah, that is right.
14 Q. Could we have on the screen photograph
15 EP27.6. This is a photograph that was taken on the day
16 from somewhere at or close to where you have put a
17 circle on your map. This is the gable end of
18 Glenfada Park North and this is the block of
19 Rossville Street that looks on to Rossville Street. We
20 can see there are a number of people, about 30 or 40 in
21 this photograph, immediately to the south of the rubble
22 barricade we can see in the photograph.
23 Does that scene look like something that you
24 saw?
25 A. Similar, yes.
1 Q. We can see from the angle at which this
2 photograph has been taken some army vehicles stationary
3 in Rossville Street. Do you recall seeing any army
4 vehicles?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You describe seeing soldiers to the north of
7 Block 1, apparently conducting an arrest operation.
8 Did you see anybody being arrested?
9 A. I could have, it was a glance, just.
10 Q. I did not quite hear?
11 A. It was at a glance.
12 Q. Could we have on the screen photograph
13 EP2.5. This is another photograph that was taken on
14 Bloody Sunday. This is Glenfada Park North; there is
15 the gable end and one can see the barricade below it.
16 This is a boy or young man who is in the course of
17 being arrested. We know from his evidence that he had
18 come from further down to the left of the photograph.
19 Of course, when you had a glance you would have been
20 looking in the opposite direction from that in which
21 the photograph is taken. Does that bring back any
22 recollection of anything that you saw?
23 A. It was more a melee of people running and
24 soldiers running together.
25 Q. Did you ever see any of the civilians who
1 were behind the barricade go out in front of the
2 barricade, that is to say on the north side, the
3 William Street side?
4 A. You mean go over the barricade, over the top
5 of the barricade?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I could have, yeah.
8 Q. Could we go back to AM18.2, paragraphs 11 and
9 12. You describe there how you must have looked away
10 from the rubble barricade for a few seconds and then
11 looked back and have a clear memory of looking back at
12 the rubble barricade and seeing everyone lying on the
13 ground and taking cover; somebody shouted out something
14 like "He's been shot, he's been shot" and the crowd at
15 the gable end all began panicking and there were cries
16 of "help them, help them", but others were shouting for
17 people to stay down and keep behind the wall.
18 Your immediate reaction was to stay amongst
19 the crowd for safety, but almost immediately after you
20 heard somebody had been shot you heard somebody else in
21 the crowd shouting out "Here come the Paras"; that is
22 the sequence of your recollection, is it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The Tribunal has received a lot of evidence
25 that probably the first person who fell was a man
1 called Michael Kelly. If we go back to EP27.6,
2 Michael Kelly is almost certainly the man who is
3 bending down on the right-hand side of this
4 photograph. (Indicating). Not long after this
5 photograph was taken -- could we have EP32.1 --
6 Michael Kelly fell; that is him in that photograph, and
7 there are a number of people on the ground but a number
8 of people still standing.
9 Could we have EP32.2. A few seconds later we
10 can see him on his back and the man walking through the
11 barricade and this boy who is in the previous
12 photograph has come a little further south down
13 Rossville Street and is turning round and looking at
14 Michael Kelly. (Indicating). Do you have any
15 recollection of seeing any scene like that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If we go to EP23.10, it is also apparent from
18 the photographs that Michael Kelly, who we have seen in
19 the previous pictures, was taken from the place where
20 he fell and was eventually laid down on the pavement
21 and is here surrounded by quite a large group of
22 people. Does that picture bring back any recollection
23 of a scene that you saw?
24 A. I know there was people in Glenfada Park, but
25 if you see from the photograph, there is people walking
1 to the left of Michael Kelly have not a clue what is
2 going on. I could have been one of them. So much was
3 happening at the one time in the square.
4 Q. You think you might have been one of the
5 people on the left or in that sort of position?
6 A. Well, I was on the square.
7 Q. You were on the square?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you say you were on the square, do you
10 mean by that you were some way away from the gable end
11 within the square?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could we have on the screen P642. We know
14 that shortly after this photograph was taken
15 Michael Kelly was carried across the square; this is
16 him being carried in this photograph. Did you see
17 anything of that kind occur?
18 A. No.
19 Q. May we come to AM18.2, paragraph 12, the
20 bottom of the page. You describe how, almost
21 immediately after you had heard somebody had been shot,
22 you heard someone shout "Here come the Paras" and you
23 then saw a group of about four or five Paras coming
24 into -- can we go to paragraph 14 -- Glenfada Park
25 North.
1 You saw the Paratroopers coming into
2 Glenfada Park North from the northeastern entrance.
3 The sequence you have told us about is of hearing that
4 somebody had been shot and then almost immediately
5 somebody shouting the Paras were coming in and then
6 seeing them. Do you think it is possible there may
7 have been more of an interval between learning that
8 somebody had been shot and somebody saying the
9 Paratroopers were coming in and your then seeing them?
10 A. What time spell are you talking about or what
11 do you mean?
12 Q. I can define it in this way: it looks pretty
13 clear from the photographs that Michael Kelly was
14 brought in from the barricade; laid on the ground below
15 the gable end; attended to for a while; then carried
16 across Glenfada Park and then the Paratroopers came
17 in.
18 So in a sense the timescale appears to be
19 sufficient for all that to happen. It is more than two
20 seconds or two or three seconds.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. A few minutes?
23 A. Possibly a few minutes.
24 Q. You describe how a soldier in a distinctive
25 jacket fired a number of shots from the hip in a sort
1 of fan and he came in first and was followed by at
2 least three or four others and you cannot say if they
3 also fired, this all happening at a time when you were
4 standing on the pathway just by the northeastern block
5 of Glenfada Park South.
6 Can we look at where you have marked your
7 position by going back to your map at AM18.17. You at
8 this stage were approximately there; is that right, at
9 D? (Indicating).
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And the Paratroopers who you see come through
12 the northeast entrance at E. Did you see this
13 Paratrooper in front firing shots in a sort of fan
14 before you ran away from the position that you were at
15 D?
16 A. While I was running.
17 Q. While you were running?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Whilst you were running and saw that the
20 Paratrooper was shooting, were there other people in
21 the body of the square?
22 A. Not that I recall, no.
23 Q. When you ran, did you run alone or were there
24 others running with you?
25 A. A group.
1 Q. A group. Can you recall how big the group
2 was?
3 A. There was about 15, 20 people or more.
4 Q. We will come to it in a moment, but we know
5 you were subsequently to see two bodies on the ground,
6 but whilst you were running from east to west did you
7 see anybody fall, apparently shot?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you see where the shots of the soldier
10 landed?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Or where they appeared to be directed to?
13 A. Just fired into the crowd.
14 Q. Could we have on the screen, please,
15 photograph AM18.9. This is a photograph taken on the
16 day, so we believe. It shows a number of people still
17 at the gable end and a number of people obviously
18 beginning to run from below the gable end to the
19 alleyway the other side of the square and a number of
20 people who have already got through the alleyway. Does
21 that represent something like the scene that you
22 remember?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You describe in your statement how you ran
25 along the south of Glenfada, banging on the fences to
1 see if anybody would open them. The fences to which
2 you are referring are the fences of the houses at the
3 south of the path; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. May we come back, please, to paragraphs 13 to
6 16 on AM18.3. You describe in paragraph 13 how you had
7 run perhaps 20 or 30 yards when something hit you and
8 you fell to the ground, sprawled on your stomach, at
9 first thinking you had been hit by a rubber bullet in
10 the right leg. You describe how you could then see,
11 after you had fallen, two bodies lying near to you.
12 Had you noticed those two people before you
13 saw them as bodies who had fallen on the ground?
14 A. No, not individually.
15 Q. May we look, please, at AM18.11, which is the
16 photograph that is attached to your statement. As
17 I understand it, but tell me if I am wrong, you believe
18 that the body closest to the fence in this photograph
19 is you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And James Wray to the right of the photograph
22 whose legs we can see and William McKinney in the
23 gutter below the pavement; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You did not know William McKinney at the
1 time, is that right?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How did you learn subsequently that the
4 person in the gutter to the right of you was William
5 McKinney?
6 A. I was told his name afterwards.
7 Q. I am sorry?
8 A. I was told his name afterwards.
9 Q. You were told his name; do you know who told
10 you his name?
11 A. (Witness shaking head). No.
12 Q. Or how soon afterwards you learnt it?
13 A. (Witness shaking head). No.
14 MR CLARKE: Would you like a break,
15 Mr Mahon?
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Mahon, it is the Chairman
17 again. We are more than happy to give you a break if
18 you like, all you have to do is ask?
19 A. No, go on.
20 MR CLARKE: When you ran across the park and
21 were shot, apart from people running towards the
22 alleyway, had anything else been going on in the park?
23 A. Like what?
24 Q. Had anything else been going on, had there
25 been any sort of confrontation with the soldiers?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Anybody with a rifle or a gun?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Or a fizzing object or a bomb?
5 A. No, there was no stones even threw.
6 Q. Could we have back on the screen the map,
7 AM18.17. You were running across in this direction.
8 As you looked and saw the Paratroopers to the north,
9 did you notice if there were any cars or vehicles on
10 the east side, the right side as you look at it, of
11 Glenfada Park North?
12 A. There was a van, a car, a van parked on the
13 corner.
14 Q. A car or a van?
15 A. Mmm.
16 Q. Did you see anything happening around that
17 car or van?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Could we come, please, to paragraphs 18 to 20
20 on AM18.4. You describe how after you had seen
21 Jim Wray, as you lay on your side, your face was
22 looking towards the north and you saw a Paratrooper
23 walking towards the body of Jim Wray who was the same
24 Paratrooper as you had seen shooting from the hip
25 before.
1 How could you be sure that he was the same
2 Paratrooper?
3 A. The colour of his jacket.
4 Q. You describe how the colour and the markings
5 seemed to stand out more on his jacket than those of
6 others. Was there any particular reason for that; was
7 it cleaner or was it different?
8 A. It was a different colour -- it was
9 a slightly different colour or pattern, I think.
10 Q. You describe how the soldier made no move to
11 search either William McKinney or you and effectively
12 walked in a direct line towards Jim Wray and saw
13 Jim Wray's shoulders move and therefore realised that
14 he was still alive.
15 Did you see his shoulders move, Jim Wray?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You then describe him pointing his rifle at
18 Jim Wray's back and firing two shots and seeing
19 Jim Wray's coat move twice.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You are sure, are you, that at this stage two
22 shots were fired?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. May we look, please, at AM18.12. That is
25 you, is it not, standing holding as it were a rifle in
1 the way in which you saw the soldier hold his?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. May we then come to paragraph 21 to 23 on
4 AM18.4. You describe seeing the soldier walk then into
5 the alleyway between Glenfada Park North and
6 Glenfada Park South and go into Abbey Park so that you
7 could no longer see him.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And you heard more shots, coming both from
10 Abbey Park and also ringing out behind you in the area
11 of Rossville Street. Do you have any idea how many
12 shots you heard?
13 A. Three or four.
14 Q. Did anyone go with the soldier into Abbey
15 Park?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Or follow him after he had gone?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You then describe how, after some time, the
20 soldier came back through the gap and took his helmet
21 off, wiped his forehead with the back of his hand and
22 you could therefore see that he had blond hair. Were
23 there any other features of him that you recall?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You say that you have recognised him in one
1 of the videos we have seen. I wonder if we could play
2 that video so we can be entirely sure which one it is
3 which one you think is the person. Could we have video
4 3 at the reference I was looking for this morning, on
5 the screen and can you tell us when you see the soldier
6 who you think is the one.
7 (Video 3 played)
8 A. There.
9 Q. Have you seen him?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Can we roll back slowly?
12 A. The one in the middle. (Indicating).
13 Q. The one in the middle?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. That one there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could we preserve that image. Can we go back
18 to that image and can we roll it back a little further,
19 the man we see with the blond hair. Thank you.
20 Can we preserve that image as AM18.26.
21 May we then go back to paragraphs 21 to 23 on
22 AM18.4: you describe in paragraph 23 on AM18.4 how the
23 soldier then shouted out "I've got another one" and you
24 say that from the way he was looking he was obviously
25 shouting at someone directly behind you. You presume a
1 soldier who was standing somewhere near the south gable
2 end wall of the eastern block.
3 Had you been able to see what had happened to
4 the soldiers who had come in behind the soldier we are
5 talking about?
6 A. No.
7 Q. If we go to the top of the page, may we take
8 it from paragraphs 24 to 27. You describe hearing
9 another voice shout from behind you "We're pulling out"
10 and then a Christian name has been obliterated. Can
11 you tell us what you heard?
12 A. "We are pulling out, Dave".
13 Q. Dave, and the blond soldier then walked off,
14 heading in the direction of the northeastern entrance
15 to Glenfada Park.
16 Can you give us any idea of the interval of
17 time that passed between the soldier shouting "I've got
18 another one" and somebody behind you shouting "We're
19 pulling out, Dave"?
20 A. No, I do not have a clue.
21 Q. At the time when you heard the words "We're
22 are pulling out, Dave," could you tell where the
23 soldier who had come out of the alley was?
24 A. He was still in front of me, standing beside
25 Jim Wray.
1 Q. He was still in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was there any way of telling whether this
4 remark, "We're pulling out, Dave," was addressed to the
5 soldier who was still in front of you or to some other
6 soldier in Glenfada Park?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You describe in paragraph 25 how for some
9 reason you turned to look towards the north entrance
10 and saw the same soldier standing there. Whereabouts
11 was he standing at this stage?
12 A. Diagonally across the park, towards the
13 northeastern entrance.
14 Q. When you say, "diagonally across the park"?
15 A. From Jim Wray's body.
16 Q. Was he at the northeast entrance?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You say he must have seen you move because he
19 got down on one knee and aimed his rifle at you and you
20 turned your head to look the other way and then
21 a woman's voice shouted out "Don't shoot -- first aid",
22 and you heard a shot.
23 Whose voice was that, do you know, who cried
24 out "Don't shoot -- first aid"?
25 A. At the time I did not know who it was.
1 Q. Did you discover who it was?
2 A. A first aid woman.
3 Q. Do you know which first aid woman?
4 A. Aye, Eibhlin Lafferty.
5 Q. Then you felt a hand on your shoulder and
6 heard a man's voice speaking to you, to your relief in
7 a Derry accent; do you know who that man was?
8 A. I think it was Daniel Porteous.
9 Q. Daniel Porteous?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Does he still live in Derry?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know where he lives?
14 A. In Donegal somewhere.
15 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 30 to 32.
16 You describe being carried into a house in Abbey Park
17 and you have seen a video showing you being carried.
18 I wonder, just to make sure that we have identification
19 correct, if we could have the relevant piece from video
20 19. Can you tell us if and when you see yourself in
21 this video shot.
22 (Video 19 played)
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That is you, is it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. We have heard from others that the house to
2 which you were taken was the McCourt house in 4 Abbey
3 Park. Do you happen to know why you were carried
4 there, as opposed to any other house?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You were later carried to an ambulance in
7 Glenfada Park North in the spot where James Wray had
8 been and taken to hospital; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I want, if I may, to ask you a few questions
11 about the Sunday Times notes with which I know you
12 disagree. Before I do that, can I ask you this: did
13 you ever give a statement to the Northern Ireland civil
14 rights people?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Or any statement, I mean apart from the
17 interview with the policeman who came to see you in
18 hospital; did you give any other statement?
19 A. I was shown one statement from -- there is no
20 name on it, but I have no recollection of making that
21 statement, it was taken in the hospital, in fact the
22 first time I seen it was about five weeks ago.
23 Q. If we look at AM18.25, is that the statement
24 you are referring to?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. We think -- indeed we know that is a part of
2 something written by Mr Grimaldi who conducted
3 interviews at the hospital, a portion of which has been
4 apparently recorded. I will come to that in a moment.
5 Apart from that, did you make any other
6 statement?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Could we then come, please, to AM18.14.
9 These appear to be notes made on 2nd March by Peter
10 Pringle and Phillip Jacobson of the Sunday Times team.
11 It must have been 2nd March 1972. 2nd March would have
12 been the day after you came out of hospital; would it
13 not?
14 A. Yes, about that time.
15 Q. You have a recollection of being interviewed
16 by some people from the Sunday Times in your parents'
17 house; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can we examine together what they say to see
20 what you disagree with and what may be correct. What
21 they have written, is this:
22 "I joined the march at the Bishop's Field and
23 when the procession turned up Westland Street, I cut
24 across through Abbey and Glenfada Park to meet up with
25 them again at William Street. I went down to the
1 barricade and then retraced my steps back up
2 William Street."
3 Is that correct, do you think?
4 A. No.
5 Q. It is not your route?
6 A. No. No, sorry, I was not down
7 William Street; I was not down as far as the barricade.
8 Q. Do you remember cutting through Abbey and
9 Glenfada Park to meet up with the march?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That bit is correct?
12 A. Mmm.
13 Q. Then they deal with the shot which hit
14 Mr Johnston which I do not think we need look at for
15 the moment. A bit further on they have recorded this:
16 "I then went across into Glenfada Park.
17 I went along the gable facing on to Rossville Street
18 and looked out on to the barricade. The boys were
19 arguing as in the Irish Times pic and saw that the
20 Saracens had come into Rossville Street."
21 Your recollection now, as I understand it, is
22 that you do not recall seeing any Saracens in
23 Rossville Street; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. "Then I went back into Glenfada [I am now
1 reading the manuscript] just off the pavement, when
2 I saw a soldier on the corner of the flats across
3 [I think one then goes to the rest of the manuscript]
4 across Rossville Street. Then shooting started and
5 everyone started running towards the alleyway."
6 I think one has to pick it up here:
7 "I walked along the south wall. As I was hit
8 I was walking along the wooden fencing. There were two
9 others hit in front of me. I fell to the ground and at
10 first I thought it was a rubber bullet."
11 All that seems very similar to what you have
12 been telling us?
13 A. I was not walking, I was running.
14 Q. "I assume the shot came from the soldier who
15 I had seen enter through the alley from
16 Rossville Street and come up behind a van parked on the
17 east side of the square. The soldier pointed a rifle
18 in my direction."
19 There is a reference to a van parked on the
20 east side of the square, but the account that has been
21 noted down simply refers to a soldier entering through
22 the alley and coming up behind the van and pointing a
23 rifle in your direction rather than walking into the
24 square, fanning with his rifle and firing at random?
25 A. As I say, that is not an accurate account.
1 Q. It is not the case that you caught sight of
2 him positioned behind the van pointing towards you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You say:
5 "After I had been shot and was lying face
6 down on the ground, I could see about six other
7 soldiers against the east wall."
8 Do you think that is the approximate number
9 of soldiers you saw in all in Glenfada Park?
10 A. Between five and six, approximately, yes.
11 Q. He has noted a description of the other two
12 bodies. Can we then come, please, to the second page,
13 AM18.15. What he has recorded, is this:
14 "The next thing I recall clearly was seeing a
15 single soldier on the opposite side of the court from
16 the others, looking towards the passageway and firing
17 two or three shots from under his arm and at the same
18 time shouting to the other soldiers 'I have got another
19 one of them [and then the Christian name has been
20 obliterated].
21 "The soldier then pulled back towards the
22 van. I think it could have been the first soldier
23 I saw pointing a rifle in my direction, but I am not
24 certain."
25 That account seems to suggest that you saw
1 a single soldier on the west side of Glenfada
2 Park North looking towards the passageway into Abbey
3 Park and firing two or three shots from under his arm;
4 may that be right?
5 A. The soldier walked towards the gap and fired
6 two shots into Jim Wray.
7 Q. And then went through the gap?
8 A. Went through the gap.
9 Q. Did you ever see the soldier firing two or
10 three shots from under his arm?
11 A. He fired into Jim Wray's back, under his --
12 the way -- I think it is in the photograph, the way he
13 was carrying the rifle, that is under his arm.
14 Q. Is it possible what is sought to be recorded
15 here is the shooting of Jim Wray?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Though the sequence of your recollection now
18 is that the soldier shot Jim Wray in the manner which
19 you have described, then went into the passageway and
20 passed out of your sight and came back and then said
21 "I've got another one"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. The account goes on as follows:
24 "The soldier then pulled back towards the
25 van. I think it could have been the first soldier
1 I saw pointing a rifle in my direction, but I am not
2 certain. I raised my head to look around and a woman
3 from the balcony of a flat diagonally across from me
4 shouted to me, 'Lie still, son, do not move, pretend
5 you are dead'. Then she shouted, "Don't kill him"?
6 A. That is wrong, that was not said at all. In
7 fact the woman shouted -- I did not know who it was,
8 I heard the voice before Jim Wray was shot, not
9 afterwards and, sorry, she never -- nobody shouted
10 "Don't kill him", I did not hear that at all.
11 Q. So the sequence is wrong and the words in
12 manuscript are wrong?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "When he lifted his head he saw the soldier
15 who had returned to the area of the van aim at him."
16 That is just what you have told us,
17 effectively?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "(It was at this time that the Knights of
20 Malta girl who he believes was Eibhlin Lafferty ran out
21 from the passageway towards him and got between him and
22 the soldiers.)"
23 That sequence is right as well, is it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then you must have described four men
1 coming and taking you into Abbey Park?
2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, before we leave
3 that page, is there a good reason to continue to delete
4 the name?
5 MR CLARKE: No.
6 LORD SAVILLE: On this page, if there is not,
7 what is it?
8 MR CLARKE: I am 89 per cent certain it is
9 Dave, but I am afraid I do not have the original in
10 front of me.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Perhaps you could tell us at
12 some later stage what it is?
13 MR CLARKE: Yes.
14 Can we have the bottom of the page. There is
15 a description of being taken into what has been written
16 down as "4 Lisfannon Park", but that must be an error,
17 must it not, you were taken into a house in Abbey Park?
18 A. Abbey Park.
19 Q. 4 Abbey Park looks on to Lisfannon Park, but
20 it is the other side of the road. He has recorded
21 this:
22 "I still thought that I had been hit by a
23 rubber bullet and so did the people in the house. A
24 nurse called Jackie Cassidy said that I had been hit by
25 a lead bullet."
1 Does that name ring a bell now?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. May we come, please, and lastly to AM18.25.
4 As I said a moment ago, this is an account given by
5 Fulvio Grimaldi of interviews in hospital and although
6 it says "boy about 16" and does not have a name, it
7 looks rather from the description as if it may be you.
8 There are some passages that I ought to ask you about.
9 Can I pick them up. There is a passage on the left
10 where he records:
11 "I walked up to the maisonettes, up towards
12 Glenfada ... Glenfada Park. And as I was standing
13 there, I saw these three boys lying shot at the
14 barricade ... and I went over, you know, to the row of
15 houses, at the corner."
16 Do you recall having seen three boys or
17 indeed any boys lying shot at the barricade?
18 A. No, I mind people lying, lying at the
19 barricade, but not shot.
20 Q. Then it goes on as follows:
21 "And the shooting was going on and I saw
22 these three boys lying there, and I turned and walked
23 away and saw this other boy ... at the corner ... the
24 corner of the flats ... and I kept walking and heard a
25 bang ... me leg gave way ... I was lying there."
1 Do you have any idea what the reference to
2 the other boy at the corner of the flats might be?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Then at the bottom of the column, I take it
5 up where it reads:
6 "After a while I thought it was a rubber
7 bullet. I could move me leg again ... I was going to
8 rise ... and this one, he let on he was dead, he let on
9 he was dead. They must have thought I was dead too,
10 because they walked past me. That was the only reason
11 that I was not arrested."
12 That appears to suggest that at the time when
13 this was said you thought that somebody in
14 Glenfada Park other than you was pretending to be dead;
15 do you know what that may be a reference to?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Is it possible that when you were in hospital
18 you were not aware that the person to your right in
19 Glenfada Park had in fact been killed?
20 A. Quite possibly, or the person, the person who
21 maybe spoke to me before -- while he was lying there.
22 Q. Do you have any recollection now of the
23 person who was closest to you, just to your right,
24 speaking?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you recall what he said?
2 A. He just said "I'm hit" twice, "I'm hit,
3 I'm hit".
4 Q. Then it goes on:
5 "And I saw shooting, you know, shooting and
6 they went through. They arrested these boys that were
7 trying to get back out of the house."
8 Do you know what that may be a reference to?
9 A. No.
10 Q. "I lay there watching with one of me eyes
11 open, watching. There was this woman coming on, and
12 the woman stopped and the boy kicked her twice in the
13 stomach with the butt of the rifle."
14 Do you have any idea --
15 A. I have not a clue of that statement at all,
16 I cannot mind even meeting that person or talking to
17 that person.
18 Q. Are you at all aware of a woman being stopped
19 and hit with a butt of the rifle in the stomach?
20 A. No.
21 Q. "And the Paras came running down after
22 a crowd of boys that were arrested."
23 Do you know what that may be a reference to?
24 A. No.
25 Q. We know there were a number of people at the
1 gable end who were in fact arrested by the Paratroopers
2 who had come into Glenfada Park; did you see that?
3 A. No, I heard, just heard the voices, did not
4 see nothing.
5 Q. You heard voices?
6 A. Did not see nothing.
7 Q. "I asked to be taken into the house. I was
8 safe for 10 minutes. They got a car to take me to the
9 hospital."
10 Thank you very much, those are my questions.
11 Questioned by Mr Treacy
12 MR TREACY: Mr Mahon, just a number of short
13 matters, if I might. You were discharged from the
14 hospital at or about the beginning of March?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. While you were in the hospital, we can see
17 from AM18.13 that you were spoken to by a Detective
18 Sergeant Cudmore?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. At one stage?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you ever asked by the police, either in
25 the hospital or at any other stage, were you ever asked
1 to hand over your clothing for forensic examination?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Were you ever yourself forensically examined?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you ever approached by the Treasury
6 Solicitors in order to make a statement about your own
7 injuries and about what you had seen in Glenfada
8 Park North?
9 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
10 Q. Were you ever asked to attend to give
11 evidence at Widgery?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. Sorry, I should have mentioned that I was,
15 according to my parents I was, one of the policemen who
16 visited me in the hospital advised my father to tell me
17 to say nothing for my own safety; that was a verbal
18 statement, just.
19 Q. Your father is still alive?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
23 LORD GIFFORD: Mr Mahon, my name is Anthony
24 Gifford, I represent the family of James Wray.
25 I want, before I ask you any more questions,
1 to ask you, with the Tribunal's leave, to look at two
2 photographs. We have photographs which are taken in
3 a family situation but which show the faces of two
4 soldiers who were in the square at the time and, since
5 you have been able to pick out a soldier on a video, it
6 may be -- it may not be, I do not know, that you could
7 pick out the soldier who you saw come across the square
8 from these photographs.
9 Would it be right, sir, if we had a short
10 break and go through the procedure with Mr Clarke for
11 him to look at the photograph at leisure rather than in
12 the spotlight, as it were.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, Lord Gifford. Has anyone
14 any objection to that course?
15 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Sir, I think I am
16 concerned, I have no objection at all. It is the
17 practice that was followed before.
18 LORD SAVILLE: We may as well follow the same
19 practice. We will rise for a minute and ask Mr Clarke
20 or one of my team to ask Mr Mahon to look at the
21 photograph.
22 LORD SAVILLE: We will rise for a few
23 moments, Mr Mahon, and then one of our Counsel will
24 show you a photograph and we will all come back in
25 again.
1 (10.45 am)
2 (A short adjournment)
3 (10.55 am)
4 MR CLARKE: I showed Mr Mahon the photograph
5 which is in front of you at the moment, in fact both
6 photographs, but firstly the photograph which shows
7 G and H in it. I showed it to him without comment. He
8 pointed to the man on the left in the photograph who is
9 Soldier G, adding that he was not 100 per cent certain,
10 but that was who he thought it was.
11 I can also say that what I thought to be
12 correct about the blanked out space in the Sunday Times
13 notes is in fact "Dave".
14 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you. Mr Mahon, it is
15 the Chairman here. For the record, what Mr Clarke has
16 told us is an accurate account of what happened when he
17 showed you the photographs?
18 A. Yes.
19 LORD GIFFORD: Mr Mahon, if I may continue.
20 I must briefly, if you do not mind, take you back to
21 that time when you were lying on the ground by the
22 fence. Were you absolutely terrified?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. From evidence we have heard, you must have
25 lain there for quite a few minutes?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I know time is impossible to estimate, but
3 quite a few minutes would be a fair way of describing
4 it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If we can look at P439 --
7 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Mahon, it is the Chairman
8 again. If you would like to stop, you have only got to
9 say?
10 A. No, go on.
11 LORD SAVILLE: We will give Mr Mahon a moment
12 or two?
13 A. Carry on.
14 LORD GIFFORD: During that few minutes you
15 stayed in the same position all the time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You tried to play dead?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The photograph seems to indicate that your
20 face was lying on the ground facing outwards?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You could see as far as the body of Jim Wray
23 in front of you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And part of the square?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But not the whole square?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you keep your eyes open or did you shut
5 them tight from time to time?
6 A. After the Paratrooper shot Jim Wray in the
7 back, I closed my eyes then, I closed my eyes.
8 Q. Up to the time Jim Wray was shot, you had
9 your eyes open?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If we can move to the photograph AM18.12, the
12 man on the left, is he standing more or less in the
13 position where the upper part of Jim Wray's body was?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. With his upper part on the pavement and his
16 legs on the tarmac?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What you have told us about the shooting of
19 Jim Wray, that is still clear in your mind?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It is something you remember, it is not
22 something you have been told, it is something you
23 remember?
24 A. I seen.
25 Q. You saw. You told us how the soldier went
1 out of view?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Some time passed, can you help us at all, a
4 quarter of a minute, half a minute?
5 A. I cannot.
6 Q. But then the soldier came back and can we
7 look, please, at the two versions that have been given
8 to us as to what was said between the soldiers.
9 Can we first look at the Sunday Times
10 interview at AM18.15. Can we look at the first half a
11 dozen lines. What the Sunday Times recorded you as
12 saying, that the soldier who had come back from the
13 alley used the words "I've got another one", then
14 "Dave", so the word "Dave" had come from the soldier
15 who had gone through and come back and taken his helmet
16 off?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Your recollection as you gave it to Eversheds
19 and indeed to the Tribunal is that someone behind you
20 used the word "Dave"?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. I am only asking you how sure you can be, it
23 may be relevant that there are certainly one and
24 probably two people called Dave who would have been
25 somewhere in the area of the gable end out of your
1 vision. There were two soldiers called Dave. Do you
2 think it may be that the soldier who came back from the
3 alley was calling to one of the Daves and used the word
4 "Dave"?
5 A. No, I heard, "We're pulling out, Dave". When
6 I heard the word "Dave", it was, "We're pulling out
7 Dave".
8 Q. It was coming from behind you. I see, but
9 you of course are not saying necessarily that Dave was
10 the soldier who came through the alley?
11 A. No, another soldier.
12 Q. It could have been he was shouting to
13 somebody else -- but definitely the words "I've got
14 another one" were used by the soldier who had gone
15 through the alleyway?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr Mahon, may I, on behalf of James Wray,
18 thank you very much for making such a full statement
19 and coming here to assist the Tribunal.
20 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
21 MR GLASGOW: Mr Mahon, I am on your left, as
22 you can see. My name is Glasgow. I represent many of
23 the soldiers, but I should tell you not the soldier you
24 have identified this morning, who we know to be G.
25 Despite that, I should make plain to you
1 publicly that I have never suggested, and I will not
2 suggest, that you personally were armed in any way;
3 I hope that is plain to you and everybody else to hear.
4 Mr Mahon, what I do suggest to you and what
5 I want you to help the Tribunal with is as to whether
6 anything else was going on in Glenfada Park that you
7 may have seen, but which again, I stress, you were not
8 a part of. Those are the purposes of my question; is
9 that clear?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could we go back, right at the beginning,
12 please. I will take it as shortly as I can. You told
13 my learned friend Mr Clarke who asked you questions
14 first, that Glenfada Park was something of a gathering
15 place for people?
16 A. Safe area.
17 Q. A safe area. Mr Mahon, somebody else told
18 the Tribunal this week that it was an area where people
19 went at times of trouble for refuge because it was
20 known to be safe?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. It was not overlooked?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it is a place you knew you could not be
25 seen and you were reasonably safe, could not be seen by
1 the soldiers?
2 A. No, that is, it is not that you could not be
3 seen. They never came that far before.
4 Q. Two reasons perhaps, Mr Mahon. One, they
5 never came that far south, that you had seen before.
6 The second reason that was given, please tell us if you
7 do not agree, was it was not overlooked, so far as
8 people could see, or at least the northeast corner, the
9 corner where the soldiers came from, was not overlooked
10 by any of the observation points?
11 A. I did not know that.
12 Q. You were not aware of that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All you knew is it was a refuge and a safe
15 place to go in times of trouble?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. While you were in that square, to begin with
18 there was no immediate danger?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Although what happened afterwards must have
21 been absolutely terrifying for anyone, let alone
22 a 16-year-old. When you walked through the square
23 originally, there were quite a lot of people there and
24 it was before any shooting had started that you were
25 aware of; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As you walked through the square, before any
3 trouble started, were you aware of any vehicles, any
4 cars or vans at that stage, or did you only notice them
5 later?
6 A. I did not pay any heed to them (inaudible).
7 Q. There was no reason why you should. I would
8 like to help you with some photographs. I hope they
9 will not be distressing at all, I will take them very
10 shortly, of the scene that might have occurred around
11 you while you were at the south end of the gable wall
12 from which you were able to look out into
13 Rossville Street, do I make that clear?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could we first look at photograph 433. If
16 I can help you with this and what we know already,
17 Mr Mahon. This is the scene you have been told about
18 when Mr Kelly's body had been taken from the barricade
19 and had been put down on the ground and people were
20 looking after him.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You did not see anything like that that you
23 can remember?
24 A. I cannot remember.
25 Q. You just cannot remember?
1 A. I cannot remember that scene.
2 Q. So the position is: it may have happened but
3 if it did, you did not see it?
4 A. As I says before, on the left of the screen
5 there is people walking about have not a clue what is
6 going on. I was probably one of them ones.
7 Q. Do you remember any scene in the square when
8 there were people around and a rather larger group of
9 people, if I may have control, in this area generally,
10 whatever they were doing?
11 A. There was crowds of people in Glenfada Park,
12 yes.
13 Q. You do. You remember a time when there were
14 some people walking around in the square and others
15 collected together in a rather larger group by the
16 gable wall on the right of this photograph?
17 A. There was not that many walking about, the
18 most of them were gathered behind the gable.
19 Q. What I now want to show you, so you know what
20 is coming, is the possibility that that situation
21 changed and the people who were walking around took
22 fright at something and started running.
23 Could we look at photograph 434, please.
24 Again if I can help, Mr Mahon, what we think this is, a
25 very slightly later stage, slightly on from the last
1 photograph. The number of people around the body of
2 Michael Kelly has reduced slightly. There is still a
3 group of people around the wall, but the people in the
4 square appear to be beginning to run, some of them in
5 a crouched position as we see over on the left-hand
6 side here.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does that remind you again of something that
9 might have taken place before you realised that you
10 were in any immediate danger?
11 A. Yes, could have.
12 Q. It does?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It makes sense?
15 A. It makes sense.
16 Q. One small detail, please tell us if you can
17 help or cannot: were you aware, at any stage, of a man
18 lying on the ground in the position that I have put my
19 red arrow? (Indicating).
20 A. No.
21 Q. You never saw that so you cannot help one way
22 or the other?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Finally, could we look at photograph 432.
25 While this comes up, we also know (I think with some
1 certainty, Mr Mahon) that there came a time when
2 Mr Kelly's body was picked up from the position which
3 we saw it in the photograph where I put the blue arrow
4 and as carried initially in a northerly direction up
5 the eastern side of Glenfada Park North and we can
6 actually see, I think we can all agree it is him,
7 because we see his hand among those carrying him just
8 round the lamppost; did you see anything like that?
9 A. I cannot remember seeing it, but probably it
10 happened and I cannot remember seeing it.
11 Q. We have a photograph, but that is evidence
12 something like that happened, I think, Mr Mahon. On
13 the timing it looks as if this must have happened
14 before you started on your journey from the south of
15 the gable wall across towards the camera; but you were
16 not aware of that at all?
17 A. No. There was that much going on in the park
18 just, people --
19 Q. In fairness to you, there was a time when you
20 would have been on the far side of this group we are
21 looking at because there was a time when you were
22 looking round the corner up Rossville Street in the
23 direction where I put the yellow arrow? (Indicating).
24 A. (Inaudible) it was at the far end.
25 Q. The rubble barricade is just on the far side?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Of course I accept that you may well have
3 been that corner while this was going on. That is
4 a possibility, is it not?
5 A. It is a possibility, yes.
6 Q. It may help you if we look at P428, please.
7 This indeed shows the wall at a slightly later stage.
8 You would have at some stage have had to come out
9 somewhere to the right-hand side of this wall in order
10 to see across the barricade and up Rossville Street
11 there?
12 A. No, I was standing here, this area, the other
13 side.
14 Q. Your recollection is that you were --
15 A. On the left-hand side of the screen.
16 Q. Could I have control of the screen again.
17 You would have been somewhere in that area?
18 (Indicating).
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And it enabled you to see round the corner
21 which Mr Clarke helped you with, to have a limited view
22 up in the direction of the red arrow?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. There is nothing else on any of the
25 photographs I have shown you that you would like to
1 draw attention to? Please tell me if there is.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let us leave them and go back to your
4 statement, if we may at AM18.2, please. Paragraph 10,
5 if we can look at that, Mr Mahon: you do remember
6 seeing other people, not yourself, throwing stones at
7 somebody or something from the rubble barricade?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Did that go on for a few minutes?
10 A. I cannot remember, I mind just --
11 Q. You just remember some stoning going on?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I have to put this to you because there is a
14 difference in people's evidence and perhaps in
15 recollection. Some people say they saw people with
16 stones in their hands, but no stoning; other people say
17 there was stoning and, indeed, some people recall
18 people running over the barricade towards the
19 soldiers.
20 Out of those three alternatives, rather
21 crudely summarised, you are in the middle, are you
22 not? Your recollection is stoning but no crossing of
23 the rubble barricade to the north?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You are quite sure you could not see what was
1 being stoned?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Either whether it was a vehicle or one
4 soldier or two soldiers or more?
5 A. I could not see.
6 Q. Did you see any other activity of any kind at
7 the rubble barricade; shooting in either direction or
8 explosions or noises of any kind?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You did not hear rubber bullet guns going
11 off?
12 A. Oh, there were rubber bullet guns going off.
13 Q. You did hear them?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was there a lot of noise in your recollection
16 or just when you were there was it odd individual
17 bangs?
18 A. There were shots, there were rubber bullet
19 guns and there were shots. That is it.
20 Q. The next matter I think I ought to put to you
21 -- I apologise because it is a photograph that you
22 produced which is exhibited to your -- it is your own
23 statement, but it is clearer in P428. Might we go back
24 to this, it is the one point I wanted your help with,
25 P428. Do you have a recollection at all, Mr Mahon, of
1 seeing anybody apparently with their coat off, carrying
2 their coat in the way in which it is demonstrated in
3 that photograph?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You do not remember that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember it was a very cold day, was
8 it not?
9 A. I would not pay heed. That thing would not
10 come into your mind at all, a person carrying a coat.
11 Q. That does not bring back any memory at all of
12 somebody moving in a sort of crouched position,
13 carrying something on their left-hand side, no
14 recollection?
15 A. I seen nobody carrying nothing.
16 Q. Back to your statement, please, AM18.3, which
17 is the next matter. The only matter I now want you to
18 help the Tribunal with, if you can -- it is paragraph
19 12 of your statement, Mr Mahon -- is the way in which
20 you remember -- please put out of your mind what other
21 people may have told you or told us -- what do you
22 remember about leaving the protection of the gable wall
23 and moving across in the area where you were shot?
24 A. I was not at the gable wall, I was on the
25 same side.
1 Q. Sorry, behind the protection of the gable
2 wall. When you moved out from the protection of the
3 gable wall across the south side. So there is no
4 trickery of any kind, or trap for you, I make it plain
5 some people recall you as being in the group that was
6 really close to the gable wall, running out with just
7 three of you, with one person being pulled back and the
8 general group saying "Don't go, don't go" or words to
9 that effect. That is not your recollection, you
10 believe you were well clear of the wall to the south?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And --
13 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Mahon, it is the Chairman:
14 I understand where you say you were according to the
15 statement and you have said the same in your evidence:
16 you were standing on the pathway just at the entrance
17 to Glenfada Park South?
18 A. Yes.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 LORD SAVILLE: We have a photograph or two
22 that shows some cars in that corner. Do you remember
23 any cars in that corner?
24 A. Could have been, I cannot mind.
25 LORD SAVILLE: You cannot remember, there
1 could have been?
2 A. There could have been.
3 MR GLASGOW: Would you like the photograph,
4 sir?
5 LORD SAVILLE: No.
6 MR GLASGOW: As the Chairman has just pointed
7 out to you -- we were looking together at your
8 statement. In your statement you refer to running, you
9 say "I ran from there towards the gap"; what I wanted
10 you to have a chance of looking at were two of the
11 earlier statements which may or may not be rightly
12 recorded -- again so there is no trap -- which appear
13 to record you as recording that you walked initially
14 and then started running. Can I show them to you so it
15 gives you the chance of dealing with it. The first in
16 time would have been AM18.25 which is the note,
17 apparently derived from what may have been said by you
18 in hospital. Do you remember a rather excitable
19 Italian journalist?
20 A. I cannot remember that person or that
21 statement being taken.
22 Q. I might it quite plain that I will be the
23 last person to accuse Mr Grimaldi of objective
24 accuracy. If we look at what he has actually recorded
25 -- tell us if it is wrong -- he has you down as saying
1 in the bottom left-hand corner:
2 "I kept walking and heard a bang ..."
3 Do you have any recollection of saying that
4 at the time?
5 A. No.
6 Q. None at all?
7 A. That statement, as I say, the first time
8 I seen that statement was five weeks ago.
9 Q. I have made plain already, I do to you,
10 I would be the last person who would be entitled to
11 rely on its accuracy, I thought I should show it to
12 you.
13 The other is a passage we have from the
14 Sunday Times, which is a slightly different version
15 from what was shown to you. We have it at AM18.20,
16 Mr Mahon. Again, the same phrase at the top of the
17 page. This would have been the Sunday Times people.
18 Again I show it to you simply because it is in
19 quotation marks, for what that is worth. It starts at
20 the top there:
21 "'I was walking towards the alleyway into
22 Glenfada Park to get away from the shooting when I saw
23 a soldier ...'"
24 I put it to you in context:
25 "'... then shooting started and everyone
1 started running.'"
2 It is in quotation marks and I wanted you to
3 deal with it. Do you think you may have said that?
4 LORD SAVILLE: The next sentence goes on to
5 say:
6 "I was running along the wooden fencing on
7 the south side."
8 MR GLASGOW: Absolutely.
9 So the suggestion would be that you had
10 started walking and then something happened and
11 everybody starting running and as the Chairman has
12 helpfully pointed out, you yourself say "I was running
13 along the wooden fence on the side"?
14 A. We were walking in Glenfada Park, we were not
15 standing still, we were walking about, moving about
16 Glenfada Park.
17 Q. I appreciate that, I am sure we all do,
18 Mr Mahon, but I did not want to get it out of
19 sequence. There is a difference between you all
20 walking around and then running from the position where
21 you believe you were all the way across the south side
22 or starting to walk and then running; do you remember
23 a stage at which everyone started running when you were
24 walking?
25 A. There was people running back and forward all
1 the time. There was people running before; other
2 people running.
3 Q. And your recollection, Mr Mahon, still is
4 that when you made your journey, running as you recall,
5 there were about 15 or 20 people in the group with you?
6 A. About that.
7 Q. I have to ask you this: the Tribunal has
8 received some, at the moment unconfirmed evidence, from
9 at least one member of the Official IRA who refers to a
10 number of guns that would have been taken from a
11 vehicle, at least one of which (on his account) seems
12 to have been carried out of Glenfada Park North at
13 about the same time, perhaps immediately in front of
14 Mr Wray.
15 Did you see anybody carrying any kind of
16 weapon running in the same direction as you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. If there were as many as 15 or 20 people
19 running with you, I do not suppose you could pretend to
20 be able to help the Tribunal with what all of them were
21 carrying, if anything; you could not have seen what
22 they all had in their hands?
23 A. They were not all in a big tight bunch, there
24 was a group running.
25 Q. Were there a number of people to your right,
1 do you remember, you refer to the fence; were you quite
2 close to the fence?
3 A. On the footpath.
4 Q. Right on the footpath and some of the people
5 who were running were on your right between you and the
6 soldiers?
7 A. Very few.
8 Q. Quite a few?
9 A. Very few.
10 Q. But you recall some people between you and
11 where the soldiers were coming from and ultimately
12 firing from?
13 A. There was more people behind me to the right
14 than there was to my right.
15 LORD SAVILLE: Again, it is the Chairman: do
16 you recall as you were running along there anyone
17 between you and the soldiers that you saw?
18 A. The only person that could have been was the
19 person fell beside me, that is the only person I would
20 have seen.
21 MR GLASGOW: To be sure about that: the
22 person who was also shot?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you saw nobody else shot or injured?
25 A. I did not see him shot, I just -- I was on
1 the ground, I turned and he was beside me.
2 Q. Mr Mahon, one of the reasons I ask is the
3 Tribunal has also heard from a man who was almost in
4 the middle of the square -- do you remember the row of
5 trees?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Fairly close to one of those trees, right in
8 the middle of the square, who was also shot.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were not aware of that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You saw no one shot to your right at all?
13 A. No.
14 Q. At the time when you were running with the
15 other people, was everybody, to your recollection,
16 running in the same direction or were some people
17 running out of other exits?
18 A. I cannot tell behind me, I just seen the
19 people in front of me.
20 Q. You cannot tell at all. The last matters.
21 I will not show you the photograph, but you have given
22 the Tribunal your description of Mr Wray being shot and
23 your recollection of actually seeing two shots strike
24 him.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At that time, Mr Mahon, we have been told
2 that he was lying on his face?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That is what you recall?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And most of the evidence appears to suggest
7 that he had his left-hand side on the pavement and his
8 right-hand side on the road, lying right across the
9 kerb. Does that help you?
10 A. I seen his legs, he was waist down on the
11 road, waist down.
12 Q. Do you think he was completely on the road?
13 A. No, no, half and half.
14 Q. You agree with that, that his left-hand side
15 would have been up on the kerb and his right-hand side
16 lying down?
17 LORD SAVILLE: I think what Mr Mahon said is
18 that his recollection is that Mr Wray's legs were --
19 A. From the waist.
20 LORD SAVILLE: And the top of his body was on
21 the pavement; is that right, Mr Mahon?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR GLASGOW: Was it both his shoulders on the
24 kerb or only the left one; do you remember him being
25 tipped up?
1 A. No, not tipped up.
2 Q. You remember him being completely flat?
3 A. Well, his upper body was on the footpath,
4 yes.
5 Q. But his shoulders being horizontal and flat
6 to the ground?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Apart from that horrific scene which you said
9 you recall, you did not see any contact between the
10 soldier at all; you did not see the soldier kick
11 Mr Wray or roll him over in any way at all?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Again, to be fair to you, you had your eyes
14 shut some of the time, that may have happened --
15 A. After he fired into Jim Wray lying on the
16 ground, I closed my eyes then.
17 Q. Do you remember when it was, Mr Mahon, that
18 you first gave that account of seeing Mr Wray shot in
19 that way?
20 A. Yeah -- official account?
21 Q. Well, to anybody?
22 A. No, my parents knew about it.
23 Q. Your parents knew about it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You did not tell the Sunday Times reporters
1 about it?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I think I have to ask: why was that, why did
4 you not --
5 A. I was feared for my life, feared for my life.
6 Q. Fearing for your life?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Mahon.
9 Questioned by MR ELIAS
10 MR ELIAS: Mr Mahon, may I take you back for
11 a moment to Glenfada Park North and the car or the van,
12 the vehicle that you saw on the eastern side.
13 Can I first of all ask you this: where were
14 you when you saw that vehicle, when you noticed it; do
15 you remember now?
16 A. In the part I was going through, the first --
17 I was.
18 Q. When the soldiers came through. Can I show
19 you a photograph not taken on the day, P204, please.
20 If we could highlight the bottom half of that
21 photograph. Would you be able to indicate on that
22 photograph, you see Glenfada Park North obviously to
23 the left of those two courts you see in the centre of
24 the photograph. Would you be able to indicate where
25 you were and where you think the vehicle was, whether
1 it was a car or a van, from that photograph?
2 A. The van was about here. (Marked with blue
3 arrow - AM18.27). Somewhere in there.
4 Q. The van was at the point of that arrow?
5 A. Some point there, somewhere there.
6 Q. When you saw it, you were where?
7 A. I did not really pay any heed until the
8 Paratroopers came through the gap.
9 Q. Where would you have been at that time?
10 A. Over here. (Marked with pink arrow -
11 AM18.27). Around there.
12 Q. Pink where you were, blue where the vehicle
13 was parked.
14 Can you assist about this, I will ask that
15 this be saved in a moment, can you assist about this,
16 the vehicle, was it facing the direction of the arrow
17 as you have drawn it?
18 A. Oh, I cannot mind that.
19 Q. You cannot remember?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can you help about this, you see the parking
22 bays that are marked out in white lines, was it
23 a vehicle parked across the bays or parked as it would
24 have been if it had been parked properly within the
25 bay?
1 A. I think it was across the bays.
2 Q. Across them, but you cannot remember whether
3 it was bonnet or boot towards you?
4 A. I do not mind.
5 Q. Before we remove that photograph, your
6 recollection would be, would it, that either the bottom
7 or the bonnet of the car would have been somewhere
8 alongside or nearer the corner than what I will call
9 the first brick block we can see in that photograph?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Glenfada Park North, eastern side?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can that, please, be saved, I think as
14 AM18.27.
15 Would you look now at another photograph you
16 have looked at before, P428. I want you to look at the
17 two cars that are in that photograph, Mr Mahon. The
18 car nearer to us had already been described, I think to
19 this Tribunal, as being a car put up on bricks or
20 blocks. Do you have any recollection of that at all?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Perhaps it does not matter. But the car
23 beyond, the second car, which again is parked not in
24 the bays, but across the bays, do you see?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you see that car moved into that position
2 while you were in Glenfada Park?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are you saying that it was not or that you do
5 not know?
6 A. I do not remember.
7 Q. You do not remember, do you, seeing any car
8 moved around Glenfada Park while you were there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Driven partly around the square?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And parked ultimately in that position?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Apart from the car you have described in the
15 northeast corner, do you remember any other vehicles on
16 the east or northeastern side of Glenfada Park?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Moving away from that to two other short
19 matters: you had spent some time before getting to
20 Glenfada Park outside the Shiels' house, had you not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you aware of any disturbance there or
23 any suggestion there was a gunman around being
24 disarmed?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Finally this: you said in paragraph 2 of your
2 statement to Eversheds that it was commonly accepted
3 that the IRA were not going to be present on the march?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. To be clear about what you meant when you
6 said that: did you mean that IRA personnel would not be
7 present on the march or that they would not be present
8 with guns; what was your understanding?
9 A. There would be no bother at the march.
10 Q. There would be?
11 A. No bother.
12 Q. Was it your understanding that IRA personnel
13 might well be on the march but that they would not have
14 guns if they were, or that they would not be on the
15 march at all?
16 A. I would not know who was on the march. It
17 was going around Creggan at the time, it was common
18 knowledge, Creggan is a small place.
19 Q. Common knowledge there would not be bother?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But not more than that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN
24 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Mr Mahon, my name is Allan
25 Green. I appear for some of the soldiers, but again
1 I do not represent Soldier G who you think may have
2 featured on the photograph that you were shown earlier
3 today, I make that plain.
4 Can I ask you a few questions, if I may,
5 about your interview with the Sunday Times. That
6 happened, I think, on 2nd March, which was the day
7 immediately following the day you discharged yourself
8 from hospital; is that right?
9 A. Around that time, yes.
10 Q. Do you remember how many journalists were
11 present when they were asking you questions and you
12 were giving your account; were there two of them?
13 A. I think two.
14 Q. Roughly how long were you with them, very,
15 very roughly?
16 A. I have not, I cannot mind at all, I cannot.
17 Q. An hour or two, something of that sort?
18 A. No, at the time I was being introduced I was
19 in bed at home, I was being attended by a nurse and
20 I cannot -- I was on medication at the time and
21 I cannot mind how long.
22 Q. Tell me this: were they tape-recording
23 anything of what you said or making notes of it?
24 A. I cannot mind.
25 Q. At any rate, there we are. Let me ask you
1 this, if I may: you have told us earlier on that you
2 did not tell them about the killing of Jim Wray, the
3 two shots that were fired into Jim Wray.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You have said you were frightened to say
6 that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So you did not tell them about that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would it be right to say that apart from
11 that, keeping that away from them, the rest of the
12 things you had told them were true to the best of your
13 recollection?
14 A. Well, there are some paragraphs or events of
15 other paragraphs -- the woman that says "lie still"
16 told me that -- called to me before the Paratrooper
17 shot Jim Wray, not afterwards.
18 Q. What I am driving at and seek your help
19 about, is this -- of course there is room for
20 misunderstanding when someone is giving an account and
21 other people are listening to it and perhaps making
22 notes of it, of course there is room for
23 misunderstanding.
24 What I am really asking you, is this: were
25 you trying to, apart from the Jim Wray incident which
1 you concealed from them for the reasons you have given,
2 were you trying at that stage to give an accurate
3 account, a truthful account of what happened apart from
4 that, or were you trying to mislead them; what was it?
5 A. What do you mean mislead them?
6 Q. I am sorry?
7 A. What do you mean mislead them?
8 Q. Tell them something you knew was not true,
9 tell them an account that was wrong?
10 A. What is wrong with the statement? Jim Wray
11 was shot, he was shot in the back while lying on the
12 ground, I seen it, right.
13 I was shot in Glenfada Park. William
14 McKinney was shot in Glenfada Park. There was no lies
15 in it.
16 Q. Mr Mahon, forgive me, please?
17 A. You are as much as calling me a liar sitting
18 here.
19 Q. No.
20 A. Yes, you are.
21 Q. No, I am not. Did I make plain the question
22 I am putting to you?
23 A. Make it plainer, please.
24 Q. I make it plain, I am not calling you a liar
25 at all. Indeed, what I am asking you is whether you
1 were telling the Sunday Times people the truth as you
2 remembered it?
3 A. Am I telling lies?
4 Q. Sir, I will leave it there.
5 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
6 LORD GIFFORD: There are two more matters
7 I should have explored a moment ago.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Let us see what they are,
9 Lord Gifford.
10 LORD GIFFORD: The first one, Mr Mahon, may
11 I take you back to photograph P439. I am going to be
12 exploring tomorrow with the person who took this
13 photograph whether the round object which is seen in
14 that blue arrow may be the head or helmet of a
15 soldier. So far as you are concerned, in relation to
16 that, I want your assistance over one thing: when the
17 soldier who had shot Jim Wray came back, did he stay
18 for a while in that corner by the alley?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For what could have been a minute or two?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As it were guarding that entrance or what is
23 he doing so far as you remember?
24 A. He seemed to be resting.
25 Q. Resting, staying in that position, with his
1 helmet on for some of the time and then off?
2 A. He took the helmet off, yes.
3 Q. Off?
4 A. He took his helmet off.
5 Q. While he was standing there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That is one matter, sir.
8 The other matter, is this: the bullet that
9 struck you, there is a reference at 18.16 to your
10 having given the bullet to the police?
11 A. No, I did not give the bullet to the police,
12 the hospital gave the bullet to the police.
13 Q. The hospital gave the bullet to the police?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How do you know that?
16 A. Seen it in the file.
17 Q. You saw it in the file?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But you have never seen it yourself since
20 then?
21 A. No, I asked for it and they could not give
22 it.
23 Q. You asked for it from who?
24 A. I asked from the police themselves.
25 Q. From the police. How long after was that?
1 A. A couple of years maybe.
2 Q. A couple of?
3 A. Years.
4 Q. What answer were you given?
5 A. No answer.
6 Q. You asked by letter or did you --
7 A. I think it was a letter.
8 Q. Thank you very much. Just one other matter
9 about the helmet of the man who had come through the
10 alley, did he keep it off or did he put it back on
11 again?
12 A. He kept it off.
13 Q. He kept it off so far as you could see?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR CLARKE: Could you help me on one final
16 matter: why was it that you were, as you describe,
17 fearful for your life if you told the Sunday Times what
18 had happened to Jim Wray?
19 A. Sorry?
20 Q. You told us a little earlier that you did not
21 tell the Sunday Times about Jim Wray being shot twice
22 in the back because you were fearful of your life?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Why were you fearful of your life if you were
25 to tell the Sunday Times about that?
1 A. Well, who was I going to tell. If I had made
2 a statement to the police about it, they are the
3 Security Forces and who killed Jim Wray, who did I see
4 killing Jim Wray while he lay on the ground. It was
5 the Security Forces.
6 Q. Could we go back to AM18.15, which is the
7 Sunday Times account. When I was asking you questions
8 a little earlier we were looking at the top of this
9 page, where what they have recorded is this:
10 "The next thing I recall clearly was seeing a
11 single soldier on the opposite side of the court from
12 the others, looking towards the passageway and firing
13 two or three shots from under his arm and at the same
14 time shouting to the other soldiers 'I've got another
15 one of them'."
16 I had understood you to say it was possible
17 that what was being recorded was some sort of an
18 account of the shooting of Jim Wray, but that is wrong,
19 is it?
20 A. No, the, the paragraph should be -- after he
21 fired two shots from under his arm, it was then he
22 walked into Abbey Park and when he came back out again
23 from Abbey Park, he shouted "I've got another one", but
24 the single soldier that fired the two shots from under
25 his arm is right.
1 Q. Can I understand this correctly: if they took
2 down from you that a single soldier fired two or three
3 shots from under his arm, was that you talking about
4 Jim Wray or was it something else, or can you not tell?
5 A. Well, it is after I was shot and the only
6 person other that day I was shot I seen getting shot
7 was Jim Wray.
8 Q. I was only trying to discover what you may
9 have been referring to, if you are accurately reported
10 in this?
11 A. The only shots I -- apart from the one that
12 I heard when the first-aider came in was one I seen
13 near me, I seen that soldier shooting Jim Wray.
14 Q. Perhaps we cannot take it any further than
15 that.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Mahon, it is the Chairman
17 again, over to your right. Thank you very much indeed
18 for coming here to assist this Inquiry. Thank you.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 MR JOHN JAMES KELLY, sworn
21 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Kelly, I expect you have
23 heard me say this to other witnesses, but I will say it
24 to you. I am the Chairman, the questions come from the
25 barristers in front of me; could you try and remember
1 to keep close to the microphone, please.
2 MR ROXBURGH: Mr Kelly, do you have with you
3 a copy of the statement that you made to this Inquiry
4 on 29th June 1999?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
7 the best of your knowledge and belief?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. You describe in your statement how you went
10 on the march on Bloody Sunday and you describe the
11 progress of the march to William Street. I wonder if
12 we can pick it up, please, in paragraph 5. Six lines
13 down in paragraph 5 you say:
14 "I went past the junction with
15 Chamberlain Street on my right. From a point just
16 after that junction, facing towards the barrier
17 (barrier 14), I watched what I would describe as a
18 small riot. There were people throwing stones at the
19 soldiers behind the barricade and the soldiers were
20 firing a water cannon and CS gas. It was no bigger
21 than any other riot which was part of the scene in
22 those days. It was no big deal. After a few minutes
23 the riot was diminishing and was no longer
24 interesting. My friend Jim Lynch and I walked back to
25 the junction with Chamberlain Street and decided to go
1 over to Free Derry Corner to listen to the speeches."
2 Was your friend Jim Lynch the James Lynch
3 whose family used to live at 32 West Way in the
4 Creggan?
5 A. No, no, not as far as I know. Jim Lynch was
6 a guy I worked with in Mollins at the time and the two
7 of us went together on the march that day, along with a
8 few other people.
9 Q. Was either your friend or you taking any part
10 in the riot that was going on?
11 A. During the period of the riot we stood and
12 watched what was going on. In those days, like, I was
13 just a married man, I had two children at the time and,
14 and I did not take part in riots at that time. So
15 myself and Jim just watched what was going on. As
16 I said in my statement there, it became uninteresting
17 after a period of time.
18 Q. If we go on to the next page we can see in
19 the last part of paragraph 5 and paragraph 6 that you
20 describe the route you took down Chamberlain Street and
21 into the car park of the Rossville Flats where you
22 heard somebody shouting that the Paras were coming and
23 then you went through to the other side of the
24 Rossville Flats and you took cover by the Threepenny
25 Bits.
1 You say that as you hid behind the Threepenny
2 Bits you heard gunshots for the first time which were
3 definitely high velocity shots from an SLR army rifle.
4 Can you remember whether you heard rubber
5 bullets as well as the high velocity shots?
6 A. Not at that time. As I say, according to the
7 statement, when the Paras moved into the courtyard,
8 I was more or less in the middle of it and there was no
9 shooting at that time. I heard absolutely nothing, but
10 once I went through Blocks 2 and 3 and got round to the
11 Threepenny Bits, the shooting started more or less
12 straightaway.
13 Now, even in that short distance, maybe about
14 30 or 40 seconds, I do not know, there was a period of
15 time when the Paras moved in that they actually opened
16 up and all I heard was the high velocity shooting at
17 the time.
18 Q. So you were not aware of any other kind of
19 shooting mixed in with the high velocity fire?
20 A. Certainly not, all I heard that day was SLR,
21 high velocity shots.
22 Q. If we go on to paragraph 7, please, you tell
23 us that you crossed over to Lisfannon Park where you
24 met your brother-in-law Mr Cooley and you described the
25 firing of two shots that hit the ground immediately in
1 front of you. Was there anybody else around you and
2 Mr Cooley when those shots were fired, or was it just
3 the two of you?
4 A. There is a possibility there was other people
5 there, but at this -- 30 years on it is very hard to
6 remember that. All I remember is that the two of us
7 decided to cross over into Abbey Park because we --
8 before there was the scene of a crowd gathered for some
9 reason or another and possibly through maybe nosiness
10 or whatever, we decided to cross over and as we stepped
11 out, both of us, the two bullets rang out and the
12 bullets hit in front of us.
13 Q. Were you aware of anybody in that area who
14 was doing anything that might have caused a soldier to
15 fire those shots?
16 A. Certainly not. As a matter of fact, everyone
17 who was around that area was trying to take cover
18 because of the amount of shooting that was going on at
19 that present time.
20 Q. You say you looked up and saw the soldiers on
21 the city wall and you describe it as a split second
22 look. Do you have any recollection of roughly how many
23 soldiers you could see up on the walls?
24 A. In my mind's eye now at the moment I can only
25 say, that minute, two, three. That is all I can say,
1 because at that time, it was a split-second look and,
2 as far as I was concerned, the bullets came from that
3 direction because, by looking across the street, there
4 was no soldiers in front of us; by looking to the left
5 there was no soldiers to our left and to our right on
6 the ground, so there was only one direction those
7 bullets could have came from was from the walls and
8 those were the only soldiers I seen, on the walls.
9 Q. Can we go, please, to AK13.3 and highlight
10 paragraphs 8 and 9. You describe moving over into
11 Abbey Park and seeing what you later learnt to be the
12 body of Mr McKinney, Mr Gerard McKinney. Did you see
13 any soldiers anywhere in that area?
14 A. No. At that time, as I said earlier on
15 there, when we tried to cross the first time and the
16 bullets hit in front of us, we moved back in again and
17 stood for another while. Eventually when we did get
18 across, the only people we seen were civilians around
19 the body of Gerard McKinney.
20 Q. You give a very detailed account of seeing
21 your other brother-in-law, Mr Downey, and then moving
22 your brother Michael with Mr Downey into an ambulance
23 and going to the hospital, obviously a very shocking
24 and distressing experience and I do not need to ask you
25 any more questions about that.
1 Just a small point in paragraph 9. There is
2 a reference in the fourth line to George Clooney,
3 should that be George Cooley?
4 A. Cooley. I did not know George Clooney.
5 Q. The last matter, perhaps 10, if we may, you
6 tell us here about what you saw when you were sitting
7 in Mr Carlin's car outside the Altnagelvin Hospital.
8 You say in the fourth line:
9 "As we were sitting in the car an army Pig
10 arrived and some Paras dragged three bodies into the
11 hospital, presumably to have them pronounced dead."
12 You have used the word "dragged", can you
13 just describe for us the manner in which the soldiers
14 moved those bodies from the army vehicle into the
15 hospital?
16 A. The only way I can describe it was that, it
17 was like they were dragging dead, dead animals out of
18 the back of the Saracens. They had no respect
19 whatsoever for the bodies. They pulled them out one at
20 a time and dragged them along the ground and took them
21 into the, the casualty area of the hospital and was it
22 was a very, very distressing scene to witness. They
23 had no respect whatsoever for those people.
24 Q. How were they holding them, which part of the
25 bodies --
1 A. As far as I remember they were holding them
2 by the arms and the legs at the time and they just
3 dragged them along, as if it did not really matter.
4 Q. In the next sentence you say:
5 "After a few minutes they came out of the
6 hospital and brought the bodies back out and took them
7 to the morgue."
8 Are you clear that it was soldiers and not
9 hospital staff who brought the bodies back out and took
10 them to the morgue?
11 A. Not as far as I remember. I remember the
12 Saracens still being there and the bodies being brought
13 out and thrown back into the Saracen again and taken to
14 the morgue. In my memory that is the way it sits.
15 Q. But thrown back by whom?
16 A. By the soldiers.
17 Q. When they brought the bodies back out, how
18 were they holding and moving the bodies?
19 A. More or less the same way.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr Kelly, those are all my
21 questions.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Do you have any further
23 questions?
24 Mr Kelly, thank you very much.
25 A. Could I say something, please, in relation to
1 the fact that my mother was to give evidence to this
2 Inquiry, my mother was there on Bloody Sunday. She was
3 in Kells Walk -- flat at Kells Walk and she witnessed
4 some of the things that happened in Rossville Street on
5 the day itself.
6 What I can say to you is that 30 years on my
7 mother still prays that the truth and justice will come
8 out of this Inquiry and she has great faith in this
9 Inquiry.
10 What I can say to you from her is that
11 hopefully that you will not allow the interference of
12 English courts in relation to -- especially what is
13 going on now at the present time, the venue and in the
14 past, anonymity, distract from what your job -- I am
15 talking about the Tribunal here -- is here to do.
16 Hopefully -- and we see it as an opportunity
17 for the truth of what happened on Bloody Sunday to come
18 out of this Inquiry.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you. This was actually
20 one question I wanted to ask you: it is about the
21 paragraph we have on the screen, paragraph 10. You
22 say, "I think the Pig arrived at the hospital
23 approximately 5.50"; can you help as to how you think
24 it was that time?
25 A. Well, the only thing I can think on is due to
1 the period of time we spent at the hospital and the
2 morgue. We reckon it was over an hour, an hour and
3 a half of that time we spent there, taking Michael and
4 the rest to the hospital, waiting for my father to come
5 over to the hospital and then eventually going to the
6 morgue and then sitting outside waiting for my father.
7 As I say, it is an approximate estimate, nothing else.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I follow?
9 A. Therefore 5.50, it could be 10 past 6, or
10 whatever. To be truthful, I am not 100 per cent sure
11 on the exact time.
12 LORD SAVILLE: On behalf of the Tribunal,
13 thank you very much for coming here to help this
14 Inquiry.
15 Mr Roxburgh, I think our next witness is
16 Mr Norris; is that right?
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 MR ROXBURGH: Yes, that is right, sir, and he
19 is not here at the moment. It may be I can help on the
20 question of the timing. For what it is worth, if we
21 can have on the screen ED4.6, please, this is a
22 statement of PC Hugh McCormack. It reads:
23 "I am a Scenes of Crime Officer attached to
24 RUC station Victoria, Londonderry. On Sunday,
25 30th January 1972, I was at Altnagelvin Hospital at
1 about 5.30 pm when I saw an army Armoured Personnel
2 Carrier with three dead bodies in it outside the
3 Casualty Department."
4 I think that is probably the best
5 contemporaneous indication we have of the time.
6 MR TOOHEY: Mr Roxburgh, do the hospital
7 records themselves not throw any light on this?
8 MR ROXBURGH: They may do. We have the
9 mortuary register. If we could have on the screen,
10 please, page D500.20. This is a slightly difficult
11 document to interpret. It is the mortuary register,
12 the right-hand part of it is on the next page but the
13 material part is on this page.
14 We can see that the admission time given in
15 respect of the body of Michael McDaid is 21.30 and the
16 names of John Young and William Nash appear further up
17 in the register, but with no time against them. But on
18 the face of it, rather unhelpfully, it would be some
19 time between 5.00 and five to 9.00. So one does not
20 get much from that. That is the time of arrival at the
21 mortuary, as opposed to the time of arrival at the
22 casualty department.
23 I am not sure we have documents that take it
24 further than that.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much,
1 Mr Roxburgh. We will stop now and start again at
2 12.50, please.
3 (12.00 pm)
4 (The luncheon adjournment)
5 (12.50 pm)
6 MR PATRICK JOSEPH NORRIS, sworn
7 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
8 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Norris, to your right.
9 I say this to all the witnesses: I am the Chairman.
10 The questions in the main come from the barristers in
11 front of me. Could you remember to keep close to that
12 microphone in front of you -- you can pull it towards
13 you, if you like -- so we can all hear what you have to
14 say.
15 MS McGAHEY: Mr Norris, do you have with you
16 a copy of the statement that you made to this Inquiry
17 and signed on 15th December 1998?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
20 the best of your knowledge and belief?
21 A. Yes, they are.
22 Q. You tell us on the first page which we have
23 on the screen in front of us at the moment that you
24 were on the march on 30th January 1972, and if we go
25 over the page to paragraph 8, please, you tell us that
1 the crowd was drifting south down Rossville Street and
2 you did the same.
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. You tell us in that paragraph that you met a
5 friend of yours called Billy Jones and you heard him
6 saying that a man had been shot in William Street.
7 That was the first you had heard of that and you had
8 heard no shots fired. You were alarmed to hear the
9 news and decided to move away and to head towards
10 Free Derry Corner.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As you walked down Rossville Street and past
13 the rubble barricade, you met a young lad that you
14 knew, Michael Kelly, and stopped to chat to him?
15 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.
16 Q. Did you know Michael Kelly well enough to be
17 certain that he was the person to whom you were talking
18 with?
19 A. Yes, absolutely certain.
20 Q. When you saw him that first time, did he have
21 any sort of weapon on him?
22 A. None whatsoever.
23 Q. Was he carrying a stone or any other sort of
24 missile?
25 A. Nothing.
1 Q. You have referred to a photograph showing the
2 gable end where Michael Kelly was standing. We will
3 come to that in a moment.
4 Could we go over the page, please, to the top
5 and paragraphs 10 and 11: You tell us at the top that
6 you chatted about various things such as girls and
7 dances?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you talk at all about the march?
10 A. No, not really, no, no. We spent our time
11 talking about exactly as what I said in the statement.
12 Q. You tell us that after 10 minutes or so
13 Michael Kelly said "here they come". You say you did
14 not see who he was looking at and did not see anyone
15 coming yourself; you heard no noise of gunshots or
16 engines, you just heard Michael Kelly say that?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. You say he must have seen the army coming
19 down Rossville Street. He did not sound shocked or
20 surprised by this, but when he said 'Here they come',
21 he could possibly have been giving a warning shout.
22 Was it a warning that people should get ready
23 to take on the army?
24 A. No, I would not say so, I think it was just a
25 simple "here they come" so the people knew that the
1 army were coming and they were going to come into the
2 Bogside.
3 Q. When he shouted that, did you look up to see
4 who or what was coming?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You then say:
7 "Almost immediately after he said those
8 words, he reached down to pick up a stone from the
9 ground at his side."
10 Was it obvious to you that he was going to
11 stand his ground and stand up against the army as they
12 came in?
13 A. Um, I think it is possible, yes, but I could
14 not say for certain what he was going to do or was not
15 going to do.
16 Q. When he did that where was he?
17 A. I am sorry, I do not understand what you
18 mean, where was he.
19 Q. You have told us that he was on a gable end
20 in the photograph you have marked "A". If we could
21 have AN24.9 on the screen, please. You tell us in your
22 statement that when you spoke to him you think he was
23 somewhere in the region of the cobblestones we can see
24 between the gable end and the end of the wall, although
25 you do not remember the stones being there?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. When he bent down to pick up a stone, was he
3 there in that area?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I would like to ask you to look at some
6 further photographs. Could we have EP27.6, please:
7 this is a photograph taken on Bloody Sunday from the
8 entrance to Glenfada Park. In fact if you look on the
9 left-hand side you can just see at the bottom the
10 cobblestones we have seen in the previous photograph.
11 The photograph, as you can see, is taken looking up
12 Rossville Street towards William Street.
13 Although he has his back to us, we believe
14 that the person we can see bending over slightly on the
15 right-hand side that I have pointed out with the blue
16 arrow is Michael Kelly. Would you recognise
17 Michael Kelly from that photograph?
18 A. Not really, I mean, there were lots of people
19 who had curly hair. Michael had curly hair, so it does
20 not really tell anything from that photograph.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing him as far out on the
22 pavement as he appears to be there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you remember seeing this number of people
25 around him immediately before he was shot?
1 A. No, there was no-one.
2 Q. There was no-one?
3 A. There was no-one.
4 Q. You have told us you were at the gable end;
5 are you saying there was nobody else there either?
6 A. Yeah, no-one.
7 Q. Just you and Michael Kelly?
8 A. Just myself and Michael standing talking.
9 Q. So you do not recall seeing any scene like
10 this at all?
11 A. No.
12 MR TOOHEY: I was not clear as to exactly
13 where the two men were standing at the time that
14 Mr Norris is now speaking of, that is I am not clear in
15 relation to, say, the southeast corner of the eastern
16 block of Glenfada Park North. Could you just clarify
17 that for us?
18 MS McGAHEY: Certainly, sir.
19 Staying with this photograph for the moment,
20 Mr Norris, you obviously told us there were no other
21 people around, but were you in an area that we can see
22 on this photograph?
23 A. Yes, just at the right-hand corner against
24 the wall.
25 Q. Do you mean the left-hand corner as we look
1 at the photograph?
2 A. My apologies, left-hand corner.
3 Q. If we look at the bottom left-hand corner we
4 can see a lady in a scarf and a man with dark hair, and
5 an overcoat immediately in front of her. Were you in
6 the area of the man in the overcoat?
7 A. Do you mean prior to Michael being shot?
8 Q. Yes?
9 A. Prior to Michael being shot we were standing
10 against the wall, we were leaning against the wall.
11 Q. We can see the wall on the left-hand side.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were leaning against that?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Were you leaning against the part that we can
16 see, the part nearest to Rossville Street?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. From where you were could you see north into
19 Rossville Street?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Could Michael?
22 A. Only when he moved slightly out and looked.
23 MR TOOHEY: Mr Norris, to your right: I am
24 trying to understand the sequence of events.
25 I understand what you have said about where you and
1 Michael Kelly were standing talking?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 MR TOOHEY: At the point where he picked up
4 the stone, was he still in that position or had he
5 moved to another position?
6 A. No, he moved out just slightly from the wall
7 to pick up a stone to his right.
8 MR TOOHEY: Do you have any idea of the
9 distance that he moved out from the wall?
10 A. Only about half a metre or a metre.
11 MR TOOHEY: You were conscious of the rubble
12 barricade being there, were you?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR TOOHEY: Can you say whether or not he had
15 reached the rubble barricade?
16 A. No, he had not.
17 MR TOOHEY: That is when he picked up the
18 stone?
19 A. No, he had not gone that far.
20 LORD SAVILLE: If we gave you control of the
21 screen, on this particular photograph do you think you
22 would be able to point where you think Michael Kelly
23 was when he crouched down to pick up a stone?
24 A. Yes, I could.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Could we give the witness
1 control of the screen, then?
2 A. (Indicating) the other way round.
3 LORD SAVILLE: You draw your finger towards
4 the point?
5 A. Up towards -- my apologies. About there
6 (indicating).
7 LORD SAVILLE: Do you want to save that?
8 I think it might be an idea to do so.
9 MS McGAHEY: Perhaps I could clarify with
10 Mr Norris: that arrow suggests that you must have been
11 parallel to the wall?
12 A. (Witness nodding).
13 Q. This is where Michael Kelly was coming
14 parallel to the wall and looking out?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Where were you at that time?
17 A. I would have been on his -- if he was looking
18 north, I would have been on his left-hand side.
19 Q. I think you still have control of the screen;
20 could you mark for us on this picture where you were?
21 A. About there (indicating).
22 Q. Should we be looking at the base of the
23 arrow, you see where the lady is with the scarf, or are
24 you right up next to the wall?
25 A. Right up next to the wall is where we stood
1 the whole time we were talking.
2 Q. Could we save that, please, as AN24.16, the
3 green arrow showing the location of the witness; the
4 red arrow the position of Michael Kelly when he bent to
5 pick up a stone; the blue arrow on the right, simply my
6 indication of the position of Michael Kelly, possibly
7 at a different time?
8 MR TOOHEY: That is the matter I was going to
9 ask Mr Norris about, Ms McGahey: Mr Norris, you were
10 shown in this photograph a person bending forward and
11 at the moment he is identified by a blue arrow?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR TOOHEY: You said you could not say for
14 sure whether that was Michael Kelly, but would you
15 positively exclude it as Michael Kelly or you just do
16 not know, or you cannot recognise from the photograph?
17 A. Um, I think, I could not exclude it being
18 Michael Kelly previous to him, to the incident where he
19 was shot, but certainly after that it is not
20 Michael Kelly.
21 MR TOOHEY: I am not really focusing on what
22 the person was doing at the time, but just as a person
23 in a photograph?
24 A. Oh, no, I could not say for certain if that
25 is Michael Kelly and I could not exclude it either
1 being Michael.
2 MS McGAHEY: You have told us, Mr Norris,
3 that you met Michael Kelly at the gable end; was he at
4 the gable end already when you arrived?
5 A. I cannot really remember, I am sorry, I just
6 cannot remember.
7 Q. At the moment you arrived at that gable end,
8 do you remember there being anything like the number of
9 people that we see here at the barricade?
10 A. I cannot remember at the moment I arrived,
11 but certainly when I was there with Michael, it was
12 only myself and him at that end.
13 Q. Could we go back to your statement, then, at
14 AN24.3, paragraphs 10 to 11: you say in paragraph 10
15 Michael bent to pick up a stone from the ground at his
16 side:
17 "As he stood up again, he pulled his arm back
18 and bent his body as if to throw the stone northwards
19 up Rossville Street. It was then that he was shot.
20 I did not hear the shot that killed him.
21 "11. He did not throw the stone that he had
22 picked up and he was shot before he had even begun to
23 throw it. It was only a matter of seconds between him
24 shouting 'here they come' and being shot. He fell
25 backwards almost at my feet."
1 Did you see any soldiers or anyone, or
2 anything at whom he was throwing that stone?
3 A. No, I did not, no.
4 Q. Could you have seen north into
5 Rossville Street at the moment he was throwing?
6 A. Not from where I was standing, no.
7 Q. I would like to show you another photograph;
8 the best copy we have of it is E14.16. This photograph
9 is again taken on the day and from the entrance way
10 into Glenfada Park from Rossville Street. You can see
11 the rubble barricade in the background; William Street
12 would be off to the left; Free Derry Corner to the
13 right. In the middle of the photograph we can see,
14 lying on the ground, a body that we believe to be the
15 body of Michael Kelly.
16 Does that fit with your recollection of where
17 he fell?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Do you recognise yourself in that picture?
20 A. (Witness shaking head) No, not until I am
21 the figure crouching down at the other side, but I did
22 not -- I certainly do not see myself there.
23 Q. When you say the figure crouching down at the
24 other side, we see a figure in dark clothing whose face
25 we cannot see?
1 A. Not in the dark clothing, no, with the
2 lighter --
3 LORD SAVILLE: The one on the left of the
4 photograph?
5 A. Yes, the one on the left of the photograph,
6 yes.
7 MS McGAHEY: The one kneeling down with what
8 appears to be an anorak or something like that and dark
9 trousers?
10 A. Yes, that is possibly me, possibly.
11 Q. Do you remember, looking at this photograph,
12 seeing anybody else falling at the same time as
13 Michael Kelly?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Are you still convinced, even looking at
16 this, that there was nobody else around when he fell?
17 A. Nobody else who had fallen?
18 Q. Firstly, was there anybody else at the
19 barricade?
20 A. Standing or --
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Standing at the barricade?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Other people had come out. After Michael had
25 fallen and I called for help, and other people came out
1 to, obviously to help.
2 Q. At the moment he fell at your feet, was there
3 anybody standing at the rubble barricade?
4 A. I do not remember, I am sorry.
5 Q. Did you see anybody fall?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I will try one more photograph to see whether
8 it does jog any memories. Could we have E14.12, the
9 photograph showing a similar scene and in the middle,
10 although we cannot see his face in this picture, again
11 we believe the body of Michael Kelly; does that bring
12 back any recollections of seeing anyone else falling
13 with him?
14 Could we go back to your statement, please,
15 at AN24.3 and paragraph 13? You say that you shouted
16 for help, something like "this fella's been shot", and
17 a group of six or seven men came to help you carry
18 Michael to safety. He was taken to the gable wall and
19 you stood around him. It was quite clear, you say,
20 that he was dead, and you refer to two photographs
21 which show the crowd behind the gable end with
22 Michael Kelly and you have identified yourself in both
23 of them.
24 I would like to ask you to look at those
25 again, please. Could we have P433: you have
1 identified yourself in the photograph as the man I am
2 pointing out now, with blond long hair (marked with a
3 blue arrow)?
4 A. Red.
5 Q. Is there anybody else in that photograph that
6 you recognise?
7 A. No, I am sorry. No.
8 Q. You have referred to being with John Kelly;
9 can you see him in the picture?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. The next one, P434, please: again you have
12 identified yourself as the one of the men on the
13 right-hand side of the picture?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recognise anybody else there?
16 A. No, I am sure I knew these people, but, you
17 know what I mean, it is, it is a long, long ago.
18 Q. We can see on the left-hand side of the
19 picture that in addition to the body we believe to be
20 Michael Kelly who is in the foreground, there is
21 somebody else lying in the car park. Do you remember
22 seeing anyone else lying there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
25 at AN24.3 and paragraphs 14 to 15: at paragraph 14 you
1 say that Michael Kelly was eventually carried away into
2 a house by others. You do not know where he was taken,
3 and you remember that a couple of men who were part of
4 the group that carried Michael from where he had been
5 shot were people you knew: one was John Kelly and
6 another his brother-in-law. You go on to say that a
7 good friend of yours, John Young, was in this area.
8 Is it your recollection that John Young
9 helped to carry Michael Kelly's body?
10 A. No, I am sorry, I cannot remember.
11 Q. You then say:
12 "There was also another young man around
13 there and I am pretty certain that this was Michael
14 McDaid who I knew."
15 Do you now have a recollection at this stage,
16 as Michael Kelly was being carried away, of Michael
17 McDaid being in Glenfada Park?
18 A. I really could not say for certain, I am
19 sorry.
20 Q. Do you have a firmer recollection of
21 John Young being in Glenfada Park?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You have told us that Michael Kelly was
24 carried around the gable end. Do you recall anybody
25 else being carried around the gable into Glenfada Park?
1 A. No, no-one.
2 Q. You say at the bottom of that paragraph you
3 are fairly sure that Michael McDaid was amongst the
4 people who were behind that gable end wall. Do you
5 have any recollection of seeing him there now?
6 A. Not -- I could not say for certain, I just
7 could not say for certain.
8 MR TOOHEY: Mr Norris, could you look to your
9 right again, please, in this direction: you have told
10 us that Michael Kelly was placed on the ground, where
11 you have shown on the photograph. Do you recall him
12 being picked up after that? I am not asking you where
13 he was taken for the moment, just do you remember him
14 being picked up?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR TOOHEY: And by roughly how many persons?
17 A. There must have been 6, 7 people.
18 MR TOOHEY: You were not one of them,
19 I gather, or were you?
20 A. Yes, I moved out to help as well.
21 MR TOOHEY: Are we talking about the same
22 thing; I am talking about the point at which his body
23 had been carried in from Rossville Street and placed on
24 the ground?
25 A. Yeah.
1 MR TOOHEY: Do you say you were one of those
2 who then helped to lift his body up from that position?
3 A. From Rossville Street back into behind the
4 gable wall, yes.
5 MR TOOHEY: I understand that, but at the
6 point where he is lying on the ground in
7 Glenfada Park North?
8 A. Oh, no.
9 MR TOOHEY: Did you play any role in his body
10 being taken from there?
11 A. No, no.
12 MR TOOHEY: Do you recall his body being
13 lifted from that position in Glenfada Park North?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR TOOHEY: Do you have any recollection of
16 where the body or the direction in which it was taken
17 immediately?
18 A. Yes, it was taken round the corner to the
19 south and to -- I am not too sure where, but I know
20 they took it round to the right.
21 MR TOOHEY: I will not pursue that,
22 Ms McGahey, probably a photograph would be the best way
23 of confirming where the body was taken. Mr Norris says
24 around the corner, it is presumably shown in that
25 photograph which shows a group on the western side of
1 Glenfada Park, that is the eastern block of
2 Glenfada Park North.
3 MS McGAHEY: Could we have P642 on the
4 screen, please; I do not know if that was the
5 photograph you had in mind?
6 MR TOOHEY: No, just around the corner.
7 MS McGAHEY: P641, please; does that?
8 MR TOOHEY: Does that show what you meant,
9 Mr Norris, by Michael Kelly's body being taken round
10 the corner?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR TOOHEY: Do you appear in that photograph?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MR TOOHEY: Could you point to yourself?
15 A. (Marked with a blue arrow - AN24.17) I am
16 going the right way this time.
17 MR TOOHEY: Do you have any recollection of
18 the body being taken from that position that is shown
19 in the photograph?
20 A. No, I do not know where it went to after
21 that.
22 MS McGAHEY: Could we save that image,
23 please, as AN24.17?
24 Mr Norris, does this photograph bring back
25 any recollection of seeing a number of people in the
1 area immediately before Michael Kelly was shot?
2 A. (Witness shaking head) No, not at the
3 Rossville Street side of the gable wall. There may
4 have been people in the Glenfada Park area of that,
5 where that picture is, as they are now, but I cannot
6 recollect, when I was talking to Michael, anyone else
7 being there or being at the rubble barricade or around
8 the rubble barricade.
9 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
10 AN24 -- before we do that, in your statement at AN24.3
11 at paragraph 5 -- can we leave this photograph for the
12 moment -- you tell us that the mood of the people
13 behind the wall very quickly turned to anger.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember seeing the number of people
16 behind the wall that we see in this photograph now?
17 A. At that particular time, after Michael had
18 been carried in, yes, yes, there was quite a lot of
19 people then about.
20 Q. And you tell us, if we go back to your
21 statement, please, at AN24.4, the top of the page down
22 to paragraph 18, please.
23 At the top of the page you say:
24 "I am quite sure that if we had had a gun and
25 had known how to use it, we would have done so."
1 Did you see, at any time on that afternoon,
2 any civilian with a gun?
3 A. No-one.
4 Q. Or any other sort of weapon?
5 A. No, no-one.
6 Q. No-one even with a stone in his hand?
7 A. No, no, no-one.
8 Q. As people stood behind the gable wall saying
9 "there is nothing we can do to defend ourselves", did
10 anybody suggest that a gun could be obtained?
11 A. (Witness shaking head) Not that I can
12 recollect.
13 Q. Did anybody suggest that the IRA should be
14 fetched?
15 A. (Laughing) No.
16 Q. Was there anybody at that gable end who gave
17 the impression that he could obtain a gun or would know
18 what to do if he had one?
19 A. No-one.
20 Q. If we go on to paragraph 16, you say:
21 "Just then, there was a much more
22 concentrated burst of shooting. The fire was much more
23 rapid. The sounds were of many, many shots being fired
24 repetitively and close together ... it seemed to be
25 coming from the direction of William Street and I could
1 see bullets hitting the ground almost non-stop."
2 Where were they hitting the ground?
3 A. In front of the barricade, on the barricade.
4 Q. Is that on the William Street side of the
5 barricade?
6 A. On both sides -- I was just coming to that --
7 behind the barricade, against the gable wall, in front
8 of us, everywhere.
9 Q. You say "against the gable wall"?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were shots hitting the flat end of the gable
12 itself?
13 LORD SAVILLE: We are talking about a
14 different gable.
15 MS McGAHEY: It may be, sir, as we go on,
16 Mr Norris goes on to talk about Block 1.
17 Are we talking about the gable behind which
18 you were sheltering?
19 A. No, the gable opposite.
20 Q. The gable opposite?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That is the gable of Block 1?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You tell us later in your statement that you
25 saw bullets hitting the north gable end of Block 1, so
1 as you looked from the gable end behind which you were
2 sheltering you could look up north towards
3 William Street, and the north gable end of Block 1
4 would be to the right; is that the gable you have in
5 mind?
6 A. Sorry, you have me a bit confused here. The
7 gable wall I was at, I could not see William Street.
8 I was looking down into the Bogside from that gable
9 wall.
10 Q. Were you looking down towards Free Derry
11 Corner?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Forgive me one moment, I will show you a
14 photograph; could we have P310 on the screen, please?
15 When you refer to bullets hitting a gable end
16 of Block 1, is this the gable end you have in mind?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Your statement says "the north gable end of
19 Block 1"; that would be up there where I have marked in
20 blue with the arrow. You would not have been able to
21 see that north gable end of Block 1 from where you
22 were, would you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Which part of Block 1 do you think was hit by
25 bullets?
1 A. There is a bit of confusion here. I was
2 behind the gable wall in Glenfada Park and if you look
3 from where I would have been standing against the wall,
4 there is another block of -- not flats on the
5 right-hand side of Rossville Street, on the left-hand
6 side, looking south.
7 Q. Glenfada Park South?
8 A. Yes. There is another block there and there
9 is a gable block there.
10 Q. And it was that gable wall of
11 Glenfada Park South?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. That you believe you could see being hit by
14 bullets?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
17 at AN24.4 and to paragraphs 17 and 18: you say that
18 you remember feeling you had to get away from the area
19 and you talked about this with John Young. You wanted
20 to make a run for it, to get out of the Bogside and
21 escape back home. Do you now remember talking about
22 this with John Young?
23 A. I can remember talking about it to two
24 friends, but I cannot get a picture of John Young or
25 Michael McDaid in my head. I just cannot get a picture
1 of their face and that confuses me, but I did believe
2 it was John Young, but I just cannot get this picture
3 in my head.
4 Q. Do you think you could bring the microphone a
5 little closer to you? What makes you think it was
6 John Young?
7 A. I met quite a lot of friends on that day and
8 I know I met John. I knew John quite well and I had a
9 feeling it was John I was talking to.
10 Q. You go on in paragraph 17 that you wanted to
11 make a run for it, get out of the Bogside. Do you
12 remember what he wanted to do?
13 A. The same as everyone, he wanted to get away
14 from that gable wall.
15 Q. You say you believe it was at that time you
16 heard this continuous shooting; at the time that
17 you heard this continuous shooting you also saw people
18 running down Rossville Street and getting over the
19 barricade. You cannot remember the timing with any
20 accuracy, but it could have been as little as
21 10 seconds or as much as 10 minutes after Michael Kelly
22 was shot:
23 "There was not a large crowd of people trying
24 to get over the barricade and I am not now clear
25 whether they jumped over the barricade, threw
1 themselves over it, or even toppled over it."
2 Are you certain that this occurred after
3 Michael Kelly was shot?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What makes you so certain about that?
6 A. Because people -- when Michael was shot there
7 were still people milling about as if they were not in
8 danger.
9 Q. You have said that when Michael was shot
10 there were people milling around; where were they
11 milling about?
12 A. In Glenfada Park, behind that gable wall, and
13 then some of them just out at the barricade.
14 Q. Now you think about it today, before Michael
15 was shot you do remember there being other people?
16 A. No, not before, I said after.
17 Q. I think what you said was:
18 "When Michael was shot there were still
19 people milling about as if they were not in danger"; do
20 you mean immediately after he was shot?
21 A. Immediately after he was shot, even though he
22 had been shot people came out to help and some of them
23 stayed there milling about.
24 Q. Then you remember people running down
25 Rossville Street and getting over the barricade and
1 this all happened after Michael had been shot, after
2 people had been milling about?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did it happen after his body had been taken
5 away from the barricade?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You say there was not a large crowd; can you
8 give us any idea of the numbers of people?
9 A. Who ran towards the barricade and over it?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. More than -- I would not think it would have
12 been any more than 10 or 20.
13 Q. Were they running from the William Street
14 direction?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you looking at them from the gable end?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you see any soldiers in Rossville Street
19 as you watched these people run?
20 A. No (Witness shaking head).
21 Q. Did you see anybody running in the other
22 direction, towards William Street?
23 A. No, no-one.
24 Q. You go on in your statement, that you do
25 remember seeing people lying on the ground on the road
1 south of the barricade and quite close to it. At that
2 stage, as you were looking out seeing these people
3 lying in the road, do you have any idea how many people
4 there were lying on the road?
5 A. Not a lot, again maybe only about 5 or 6.
6 Q. At that time did you have any reason to
7 believe that any of them were injured?
8 A. Not immediately, no.
9 Q. Did there come a time in which you did think
10 they had been hurt?
11 A. Yes, because they did not move.
12 Q. Did you see any injuries on any of them?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is it 5 or 6 people you say who did not move?
15 A. No, no, no, I would say there was only about
16 2 or 3.
17 Q. You go on:
18 "I remember bullets were hitting the Rubble
19 Barricade and also flying over it. Some were hitting
20 the north gable end of Block 1 of the Rossville Flats";
21 that should be the north gable end of the east block of
22 Glenfada Park South?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Can you give us any idea of the number of
25 bullets that were fired?
1 A. Well, I just could not -- it would be a
2 guess, an estimate, you know, certainly more than 50,
3 maybe 100.
4 Q. Did you actually see the bullets hitting the
5 barricade?
6 A. Yes, you could see, you could see the, the
7 pieces of brick flying up off the road, off the
8 barricade.
9 Q. You say they were flying over it; how could
10 you tell a bullet in the air was flying over the
11 barricade?
12 A. You could see it hit the road again on the
13 other side of the barricade. You could see the dust
14 was flying up and ...
15 Q. Could you tell the direction from which these
16 bullets were being fired?
17 A. Well, I thought -- again, it is only my guess
18 -- that they were coming from Rossville Street.
19 Q. You go on that you could see a man, who you
20 now know to be Mr Nash, making his way up
21 Rossville Street to the rubble barricade:
22 "He was crouched on the ground with one hand
23 held up in front of him and was shouting 'son, son,
24 son'. I had a very good view of him since I was
25 standing perhaps only two paces back from the edge of
1 the gable wall where I was standing when Michael Kelly
2 got shot."
3 You believe he was then shot, but cannot say
4 from where. He fell face down on to the ground. Was
5 it the fact that he fell that made you think he had
6 been shot?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You say your impression was that the shooting
9 had come from the barricade. You say you had not seen
10 Mr Nash's son fall, but could you see a person to whom
11 he was heading?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where was that person?
14 A. At the barricade.
15 Q. On which side of the barricade, the
16 William Street side or the Free Derry Corner side?
17 A. Free Derry Corner side.
18 Q. Was he nearest to you at the gable end or
19 nearest to the Rossville Flats on the other side, or in
20 the middle?
21 A. I would say probably round about in the
22 middle of the barricade.
23 Q. At this time, as you saw the man continuing
24 to crawl forward towards the barricade, could you see
25 whether there were any other people lying still at the
1 barricade?
2 A. Yes, there were.
3 Q. How many were there?
4 A. As I said, I think there must have been about
5 three people lying there.
6 Q. You say a couple of other bodies lying at the
7 barricade who were not moving and you assumed they had
8 been shot.
9 What had happened, then, to the 2 or 3 people
10 you had seen lying still earlier on?
11 A. I am not sure, perhaps they had managed to
12 run and get on further away. I do not know, I honestly
13 cannot remember.
14 Q. If we go back to a photograph you have seen
15 earlier, to P428, please: you tell us that when you
16 saw the man we will call for the moment Mr Nash Senior
17 fall, you were behind the gable end?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you see on this picture the area in which
20 you saw that man fall?
21 A. No, I think he would have been out closer to
22 the, out further into the road.
23 Q. He was further into the road?
24 A. Yes, I would say he was probably further into
25 the road.
1 Q. What makes you think it was Mr Nash?
2 A. Only because I know so afterwards. I did not
3 know him as Mr Nash then, I just -- it was just a man.
4 Q. Could you describe his clothes?
5 A. No, I think he wore -- I think he had a suit
6 on, a dark suit, but I really cannot remember.
7 Q. Do you remember whether he was wearing a hat
8 of any sort?
9 A. No, I do not think he was.
10 Q. Do you have any idea of his age?
11 A. No, not really.
12 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
13 and AN24.4, paragraphs 19 to 20: you say it was also
14 at this time that you saw another man shot. You could
15 see a man crawling at the far side of Rossville Street
16 towards Block 1 of the Rossville Flats on his belly.
17 He was south of the barricade.
18 Was he crawling in the direction towards
19 Free Derry Corner?
20 A. Yeah, towards -- yes, towards Free Derry
21 Corner, towards the door of the flats.
22 Q. Between the rubble barricade and the door of
23 the flats?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. "I did not hear the particular shot that hit
1 him, but saw his body jump off the ground a little. He
2 fell back on his side and rolled back onto his belly
3 again. When he was shot, he had almost reached the
4 door of Block 1, and some brave people came out and
5 dragged his body into the doorway.
6 Can you describe in any way the man that you
7 saw crawling?
8 A. No, the only thing I remember was that he had
9 a white shirt on and that is all I can remember, I am
10 sorry.
11 Q. Do you have any idea of his age?
12 A. Well, he was not that old. I would say he
13 must have been about, around 30, something like that,
14 mid 20s.
15 Q. The colour of his hair?
16 A. Dark.
17 Q. Was there anybody near him in
18 Rossville Street when, as you thought, he was shot?
19 A. Sorry, what do you mean by "near him"?
20 Q. Was there anybody with him?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. Anybody else on the barricade?
23 A. Standing at the barricade, do you mean?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. No, no-one.
1 Q. Anyone else taking cover behind the
2 barricade?
3 A. I cannot remember at this time those people
4 had been shot or this was afterwards, I really cannot
5 place it in time or in sequence. All I remember was he
6 crawled along and was hit.
7 Q. When you say you cannot remember if this was
8 the time those people had been shot, are you referring
9 to Michael Kelly?
10 A. No, I am referring to those who -- Mr Nash's
11 son, William, I think it was you called him, those
12 people who were behind the barricade, who were shot at
13 the barricade, I cannot remember if it was previous to
14 or afterwards.
15 Q. Apart from Mr Nash Senior (if it was him you
16 saw), you did not see anybody else shot at the
17 barricade, did you?
18 A. Shot as such, no.
19 Q. Other than Michael Kelly and Mr Nash Senior?
20 A. No.
21 Q. If we go on to paragraph 20 you say you were
22 in fear of your life, certain you had to get away from
23 the area as quickly as you could. Two boys with you
24 felt the same. Your recollection is that those two
25 boys were John Young and Michael McDaid. You believe
1 that your best escape route was to run through
2 Glenfada Park South and you decided you would head to
3 the eastern entrance into Glenfada Park South, cross it
4 and leave by the western entrance.
5 From the evidence you have given today, is it
6 right you are no longer sure that it was John Young and
7 Michael McDaid who were with you?
8 A. Yeah, as I say, I just cannot get a picture
9 of the face in my mind, I just cannot remember it.
10 Q. If I showed you photographs of those two
11 taken on the day, might it help you?
12 A. I do not know because I, I knew John well,
13 you know, so I have a picture of John in my mind of
14 when he worked in Burtons, but I cannot get a picture
15 of him on that day, I am sorry, I just cannot.
16 Q. I will show you a photograph that shows us
17 the clothes he was wearing on the day. Could we have
18 P658, please: this photograph is taken much earlier on
19 in the day. The barrier in William Street we have
20 called barrier 14. Can you recognise John Young from
21 among the people there?
22 A. (Pause) No, sorry, I cannot, no.
23 Q. The person we believe to be John Young is the
24 man I am pointing out now, wearing a hat (marked with a
25 blue arrow); does he look at all familiar?
1 A. Yeah, he looks familiar, but I mean, really
2 in that picture that could be anyone.
3 Q. Michael McDaid -- could we have E14.16,
4 please -- do you recognise him from this photograph?
5 A. Yeah, that is Michael. Should I arrow it?
6 Q. I can do it (marked with a blue arrow). Is
7 it the man at the top left?
8 A. Yes, that is Michael.
9 Q. Looking at those two and looking at the
10 clothes they were wearing on the day, does that help
11 you to remember whether you were in fact with either
12 one or both of those two at the gable end?
13 A. No, I am sorry, it does not help. I just
14 cannot remember. I have tried and tried -- I just
15 cannot remember.
16 Q. Do you remember seeing Michael McDaid at the
17 rubble barricade?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You do, so when did you see him at the rubble
20 barricade?
21 A. (Witness shaking head) I just could not
22 place it, I am sorry, I cannot.
23 Q. Could you say whether it was before or after
24 Michael Kelly was shot?
25 A. Oh, I would say probably afterwards.
1 Q. Afterwards; can you remember what he was
2 doing?
3 A. No, I think just milling about like everyone
4 else.
5 Q. Do you remember seeing John Young at the
6 barricade?
7 A. (Witness shaking head) No, I am sorry,
8 I cannot.
9 Q. You say later in your statement -- we will
10 come to it -- that while you are fairly sure that
11 John Young was one of the two people with you at the
12 gable end, the other might have been Jim Wray, not
13 Michael McDaid. Did you know Jim Wray?
14 A. Slightly, not that well, but I knew Jim,
15 yeah.
16 Q. Again, I would like to show you a photograph
17 of him. If we have P679: do you recognise Jim Wray as
18 one of the people in this photograph?
19 A. Yes, that is -- yes.
20 Q. He is, we believe, the man I am pointing at
21 now on the right-hand side (marked with a blue arrow)?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you now have any recollection of being
24 with him at the gable end?
25 A. No. No, I am sorry, I just do not.
1 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
2 at AN24.5 and paragraph 20: you tell us that you
3 decided to run to Glenfada Park South very quickly.
4 There was not a lot of logic about it due to your
5 terror at the time. The other two ran towards this
6 entrance and as you remember, they ran in a more
7 westerly direction than they would have needed to to
8 get into the eastern entrance of Glenfada Park South.
9 You have marked on your map the route that they took.
10 Could we have AN24.14, please: you have
11 marked in the middle with an arrow the route they took
12 from the gable end and the arrow suggests that had they
13 continued, they would have missed the entrance to
14 Glenfada Park South and would have run along a pavement
15 that in fact we know to have run in front of the fence
16 at the south of Glenfada Park North.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Is that your recollection of what they did?
19 A. No, my recollection was coming through the --
20 can I --
21 Q. Yes, if you have control of the screen.
22 A. (Indicating) That is my recollection of the
23 way they were trying to run and did run.
24 Q. You think they were trying to run directly
25 into Glenfada Park South?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. You tell us in your statement that they ran
3 in a more westerly direction than they would have
4 needed to?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You have marked that with the arrow. Could
7 I have control, please? The arrow you have marked they
8 ran-- you have tried to overlay your black arrow -- in
9 that direction. If that is right, they would not have
10 been heading into Glenfada Park South, would they?
11 A. It could be confusing by them as to what way
12 they were going to round, but they certainly turned to
13 go the other way. They were trying to run in the
14 direction I have pointed.
15 Q. They were trying to run directly into
16 Glenfada Park South?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR TOOHEY: Mr Norris, at the moment you are
19 speaking of two young men who intended to run, and did
20 run, you think, down through the eastern entrance into
21 Glenfada Park South, but are you in fact speaking of
22 two men whom you can identify clearly or in particular
23 as John Young or Michael McDaid, or are you just
24 speaking of two men?
25 A. No, I am sorry, this is total confusion this
1 part now, recollection. I mean, I just cannot put a
2 face -- I believe it was John Young and Michael McDaid,
3 but I just could not be absolutely certain, I am sorry.
4 MR TOOHEY: I understand that. Whoever it
5 was you have in mind, two persons who ran into the
6 northeast entrance to Glenfada Park South.
7 A. Yes.
8 MS McGAHEY: If we stay with your map for the
9 moment: you say you were going to set off with them,
10 but somebody, you do not know who, grabbed you by the
11 scruff of your neck and dragged you back. At that
12 instant the other two who had run were shot. They had
13 only run 15 yards or so when they were shot, and they
14 both collapsed down dead. The person who had pulled
15 you back by the scruff of your neck had saved your life
16 and both young and McDaid (if they were the two) fell
17 together simultaneously.
18 Is it your recollection that they fell
19 somewhere in the entrance way to Glenfada Park North?
20 A. Yes, just at the entrance way.
21 Q. Could we go back, please, to photograph P428
22 again? If you have control of the screen could you
23 mark on that picture the places where they fell; did
24 they both fall close together?
25 A. (Marked with a blue arrow - AN24.18) Pretty
1 much so.
2 Q. Could we save that as AN24.18?
3 Thinking back now to those two men, first
4 running across and then falling at that point, can you
5 describe the clothes that either of them was wearing?
6 A. No, I am sorry, I could not.
7 Q. Casual clothes or formal clothes?
8 A. (Witness shaking head). Sorry, I have no
9 recollection. I just cannot remember, I am sorry.
10 Q. Or the rough age of either of them?
11 A. Both of them? Well, I knew Michael fairly
12 well. I knew his brother, so Michael was only about,
13 I think 18, 19 and John was round about my age, about
14 21, 22.
15 Q. Are you sure the two you saw were
16 Michael McDaid and John Young?
17 A. No, again, I have told you I just cannot be
18 certain.
19 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
20 at paragraph 23, which is AN24.5: you say that at that
21 point you were in a real state of shock and perhaps
22 hysterical. You understand Father Bradley has said he
23 had to comfort a young man who was hysterical, that
24 might have been you. You were unable to say where the
25 shots came from that hit John Young, Michael McDaid or
1 the man who was shot on Rossville Street.
2 Is the man who was shot on Rossville Street
3 Mr Nash Senior, or the man who was crawling?
4 A. The man who was crawling.
5 Q. Young and McDaid cannot have been shot from
6 Rossville Street; why is that?
7 A. (Pause) Well, I suppose because I did not
8 see any soldiers on Rossville Street and they ran in
9 a direction where there would have been really pretty
10 much shelter.
11 Q. Did you see any soldiers in Glenfada Park
12 before the time you were arrested, which we will come
13 to?
14 A. No.
15 Q. The Tribunal has heard a substantial amount
16 of evidence but suggests that John Young and
17 Michael McDaid were closer to the rubble barricade than
18 you have placed them when they were shot. There is,
19 though, further evidence that three people: Jim Wray,
20 William McKinney and Joseph Mahon were shot in
21 Glenfada Park North, although not where you have placed
22 them but further along to the west at the south end of
23 Glenfada Park North.
24 You have told us you knew Jim Wray, but not
25 very well. Did you know William McKinney?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember seeing him on that day?
3 A. No, I did not see William on that day.
4 Q. Did you know Joseph Mahon?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. With the exception of the two that you have
7 said were shot as they tried to get into
8 Glenfada Park South, did you see anybody else fall in
9 Glenfada Park North?
10 A. No-one, no.
11 Q. It appears, Mr Norris, that in 1972 you gave
12 a statement. We have a tape-recording that bears your
13 name and your address. I understand you have had a
14 chance to listen to that today?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. And you do not believe it is your voice on
17 the tape?
18 A. Well, I do not recollect making that
19 statement and, no, I do not believe that is my voice.
20 Q. I would like to ask you to look at the
21 transcript of that, please; could we have X2.32.27?
22 I understand from the Inquiry staff that you were
23 fairly certain this was not your voice, but I would
24 like to ask you, if you would, just to listen to the
25 tape one more time, at least to part of it.
1 Could we, please, play Mr Norris's tape?
2 (Tape played)
3 Q. Listening to that again, Mr Norris, do you
4 think that could be your voice on the tape?
5 A. I just have no idea, I mean, I cannot
6 recollect making that tape.
7 Q. The address is right?
8 A. The address is correct, yes.
9 Q. And the age?
10 A. Yes, the age is correct.
11 Q. If we look at the text that is on the screen,
12 you say that you had moved up Rossville Street and you
13 were caught among rifle fire; your present recollection
14 is that you were behind the gable end when there was
15 rifle fire down Rossville Street, is that right?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. You say you hid behind the side of a house
18 just facing the flats with about eight or nine other
19 people and a priest; that is right too, is it not?
20 A. Yes, that is right.
21 Q. "I you sat there and some blokes, some young
22 people were out on the road and I watched as a hail of
23 bullets came and cut at least six of them down, at
24 least six people were cut down in a hail of bullets."
25 You have told us today what your recollection
1 is of shots being fired over the barricade and that
2 people lying, some of them lying still; do you have a
3 recollection of now six people cut down by the bullets?
4 A. No, I could not be that definite about it at
5 all. I could not recollect that, sorry.
6 Q. You say:
7 "I sat on unable to do anything because if
8 I had have even looked round I would have been shot.
9 I watched the young bloke crawl around the side of the
10 Rossville Street Flats. A bullet passed, just went
11 past him and into a door. The next bullet hit him and
12 I think he died."
13 Does that accord with your recollection today
14 of seeing the young man at the Rossville Flats?
15 A. Yes, yes, that is pretty similar to what
16 I have given in my statement.
17 Q. You do not refer in this interview, if indeed
18 it was you who gave this interview, to seeing
19 Michael Kelly being shot; can you think of any reason
20 for that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You also do not refer to the two boys being
23 shot as they attempted to get into Glenfada Park South;
24 do you think there could be any reason for that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
2 to this Inquiry AN24.5, paragraphs 21 and 22? Looking
3 at paragraph 21, you say:
4 "There was a priest among the small crowd of
5 people who were sheltering behind the gable wall. His
6 name was Father Bradley."
7 You were terrified and suggested to the
8 priest that you should pray. Did this happen after you
9 had seen the two boys that you think to be John Young
10 and Michael McDaid shot?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In fact that paragraph should appear later on
13 in your statement. Then if we go on, please, to
14 paragraph 24, you tell us that the next thing that you
15 can remember is a soldier appearing around the corner
16 of the gable end, covering the crowd of people who were
17 standing there with you with his rifle and he shouted
18 at you "right, you are dead you Fenian bastards":
19 "These may not have been his exact words, but
20 that was the gist of it."
21 You all stepped away. You go on:
22 "We were all absolutely terrified and
23 believed that we were going to be shot."
24 Did you really have the impression from this
25 soldier that he was going to shoot all the people who
1 were behind the wall?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was it that gave you that impression?
4 A. I think the events of the day, the fact of
5 what he said, his manner, his stance, just about
6 everything.
7 Q. Did he look taken aback to see all these
8 people behind the wall when he got there?
9 A. No, he did not.
10 Q. Did he show any surprise at all about seeing
11 this group?
12 A. None whatsoever.
13 Q. You say he had come round the gable end,
14 round the corner; from the Rossville Street side or
15 from the Glenfada Park side?
16 A. Glenfada Park side.
17 Q. You say you cannot remember him, but you
18 believe he was quite a tall and slender soldier. He
19 had no facial hair, he looked to be quite a young man;
20 was he wearing a helmet or a beret?
21 A. As far as I can remember, it was a beret.
22 Q. Any idea of the colour of his hair?
23 A. Of his hair?
24 Q. Mmm?
25 A. No, sorry, no.
1 Q. Then you say:
2 "At that moment, another soldier came round
3 the gable end and knocked the first soldier's rifle up
4 in the air. He shouted at the first soldier 'Do you
5 not see there is a fucking priest there?'".
6 Did that soldier come from the
7 Rossville Street side or the Glenfada Park North side?
8 A. No, he came from the -- in the Glenfada Park
9 side as well, the same area.
10 Q. "He had an English voice and the tone of his
11 voice was commanding. He was smaller than the first
12 soldier and had a moustache."
13 Can you give us any idea of his hair colour?
14 A. His hair colour, as far as I can remember,
15 probably was dark, but that is as much as I could give
16 you, I mean, that describes a lot of people.
17 Q. You say you believe you saw him in
18 a television documentary that was on 10 or 15 years
19 ago -- could we go over the page, please -- and it was
20 a programme that was made about the training that Paras
21 went through.
22 Do you have any idea now of the name of that
23 programme?
24 A. No, I am sorry, this was so long ago, you
25 know, but, yes, I can remember that well.
1 Q. Or even the channel on which it was shown?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Anything at all that would help us to
4 identify that programme?
5 A. No, I am sorry, I just cannot.
6 Q. You tell us that you were arrested, and you
7 have given details of your arrest.
8 Could we go on, please, to paragraph 29 on
9 AN24.6: you say that you and others were loaded into
10 Saracens, you were punched and kicked with rifles,
11 loaded up so that you were kneeling on top of each
12 other. You say that:
13 "At least two soldiers sat in the back of
14 the Saracen alongside us... The soldiers were not Paras
15 since they were wearing the same dark green or black
16 berets that I remember seeing earlier."
17 The soldiers you told us you had seen earlier
18 wearing black or dark green berets were in
19 William Street?
20 A. That is right, up in the buildings.
21 Q. Do you have any idea at all of the regiment
22 to which these soldiers belonged?
23 A. Is it the Green Jackets or something you
24 called them, I cannot remember. I think the
25 Green Jackets or something you called them.
1 Q. What was it made you think that these were
2 Green Jackets?
3 A. I do not know, perhaps someone told me.
4 I really cannot recollect, I am sorry, I mean it is ...
5 Q. Over the page, please, could we have
6 paragraph 31. You say once you got inside the compound
7 you met some people you knew. You remember meeting
8 Fergal McAteer; could that be Fergus McAteer?
9 A. Could have been. I did not know him that
10 well, but I knew him simply through his father and the
11 fact that he lived just not that far from me. I would
12 have known him by sight rather than as a friend.
13 Q. Michael McCallion?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you may have met Jim Donaghy. Was
16 Jim Donaghy a friend of yours?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What makes you think that you saw him at
19 Fort George?
20 A. If he was there, then I probably saw him.
21 Q. What makes you think now, as you give your
22 evidence to this Inquiry, that you saw him there?
23 A. I think I just said that I may have met him,
24 you know, someone probably said to me when I was giving
25 my evidence, was Jim Donaghy there. I may have said,
1 well, if he was I may have met him, and that went in.
2 Q. How did you know Jim Donaghy?
3 A. I do not know Jim Donaghy.
4 Q. You do not know Jim Donaghy?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You do not know anyone called Jim Donaghy?
7 A. Not that I can recollect. I mean, 30 years
8 ago I knew a lot of people and I have forgotten a lot
9 of people, we all do.
10 Q. You believe the only reason this is in your
11 statement is that somebody from Eversheds when taking
12 the statement must have said: did you see Jim Donaghy
13 there?
14 A. Yeah, I think that is quite possible.
15 Q. Could we go on to paragraph 32: you describe
16 the events at Fort George and say you believe you were
17 each spoken to by a soldier and a policeman, but your
18 memory of who dealt with you is poor.
19 Do you remember having your name and address
20 written down?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And your photograph taken?
23 A. Yeah, I know I had my photograph taken, but
24 I have not got a great memory of it, to be honest. You
25 know, I do not remember the events leading up to the
1 taking of the photograph or the actual taking of it.
2 Q. I would like to show you a photograph so you
3 can tell us whether this is you. Could we have
4 ARR45.1, please: is that you on the right-hand side?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We can see a soldier who has been given the
7 name Soldier G for the purposes of this Inquiry on the
8 left; does he look like either of the soldiers who came
9 round the gable end to arrest you?
10 A. No, I do not think so, no.
11 Q. Do you remember seeing him at any time?
12 A. No, I do not.
13 Q. On Bloody Sunday?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Could we have ARR4 5.2, please: this is a
16 document filled in, we believe, at the time of your
17 detention at Fort George which gives the reason for
18 your arrest. It says:
19 "Throwing stones and shouting abuse at the
20 Security Forces in Glenfada Park."
21 Did you at any time throw stones at the
22 Security Forces?
23 A. No, I did not, no.
24 Q. Or shout abuse at them?
25 A. No, no, I did not.
1 Q. We have more details of that in a further
2 document which we have at ARR45.5, which is a statement
3 by Soldier G. It is difficult to read on the screen,
4 Mr Norris, but what it says is:
5 "I am a private of the 1st Parachute Regiment
6 at present serving in Northern Ireland. On Sunday,
7 30th January 1972 I was on duty in Londonderry with my
8 Company. At about 4.15 pm I entered Rossville Street
9 as a member of a snatch squad. A barricade had been
10 erected across the street at the top end of
11 Glenfada Park. A crowd of persons were behind the
12 barricade and were hurling bricks and stones at us.
13 I made my way into Glenfada Park to get to the rear of
14 the barricade. As I approached the barricade from
15 Glenfada Park, a group of about 30 persons came out
16 from behind it and started to hurl bricks and bottles
17 at us. At this stage I was about 15 to 20 yards away
18 from this group. I noticed three persons in
19 particular, one especially who had a beard wearing a
20 combat jacket and had ginger hair."
21 Were you wearing a combat jacket?
22 A. Yes, a Parka.
23 Q. "I saw this person throw several missiles at
24 us."
25 Did you --
1 A. No, I did not, no.
2 Q. Did you see a group of about 30 persons
3 coming from behind the barricade at Glenfada Park and
4 hurling bricks and bottles?
5 A. No, I did not, no.
6 Q. The soldier goes on:
7 "I charged towards him and arrested him.
8 During the time he stoned us until I caught up with and
9 arrested him, I never let him out of my view."
10 Do you have any recollection of a soldier
11 charging towards you and arresting you?
12 A. No, none.
13 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
14 at AN24.7 and paragraphs 33 to 34? You say:
15 "I was kept in the compound all evening and
16 finally released just after midnight ... After I left
17 Fort George, there was a car there that had come to
18 pick up another man and they gave me a lift home.
19 "34. The car stopped at St. Mary's School
20 where some of the injured were being attended to.
21 I remember a girl with red hair who wanted to attend to
22 my bruises, but I just wanted to get home."
23 Why did the car stop at St Mary's School?
24 A. I have no idea. To be honest, I have no
25 idea.
1 Q. Is this the St. Mary's School in the Creggan?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall whether the other man who had
4 been picked up with you had been injured?
5 A. No, I do not recall and I cannot recall if he
6 stopped there either.
7 Q. You say you remember a girl with red hair who
8 wanted to attend to your bruises. Presumably, you went
9 into the school?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Do you remember just roughly, how many
12 injured people were there receiving treatment?
13 A. No, I cannot remember if there was anyone
14 there at that time.
15 Q. You say you stopped at St. Mary's School
16 where some of the injured were being attended to; does
17 that suggest that there were injured people there when
18 you arrived?
19 A. No, I could have just been stating the fact
20 that people who had been injured went there and when
21 I went there, whether there was anyone else there or
22 not, I cannot remember.
23 Q. Do you remember seeing any doctors there?
24 A. No, I do not.
25 Q. Or nurses?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Or Knights of Malta?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You talked about the girl with red hair; do
5 you know whether she was a doctor or a nurse?
6 A. I am sorry, I just cannot remember.
7 Q. How did you know that St. Mary's School was
8 used as a place to treat people who had been injured?
9 A. How did I know?
10 Q. How did you find out that if people had been
11 injured they could go to St Mary's School for
12 treatment?
13 A. I do not know, I assume, if I can remember
14 correctly, probably the people in the car left me off
15 there.
16 Q. So before you went there, you did not know
17 you could obtain treatment there?
18 A. No, no, I did not, no.
19 Q. Thank you very much, those are all my
20 questions.
21 Questioned by MR MACDONALD
22 MR MACDONALD: Mr Norris, my name is
23 McDonald. I represent some of the families, including
24 the family of Michael Kelly.
25 Mr Norris, it would appear from your
1 statement that when Michael Kelly was shot you were
2 standing behind the gable wall that features in these
3 photographs and that Michael Kelly was about an arm's
4 length away from you?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. He had been in that position for about -- and
7 you had been in your position behind the gable wall for
8 about 10 minutes or so?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Immediately prior to him being shot?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Indeed what you say is that he fell almost at
13 your feet?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could I ask you to look again at some of
16 these photographs, first of all photograph P635: this
17 is a photograph that we believe to have been taken
18 perhaps a minute or so, or even less, before
19 Michael Kelly was shot. You can see that he is on the
20 extreme right-hand side of that photograph. Do you see
21 the person bending down?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That is believed to be Michael Kelly.
24 Clearly he is not standing anywhere near where you say
25 he was standing when he was chatting to you; is that
1 right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you anywhere to be seen on that
4 photograph?
5 A. No, I do not think so.
6 Q. It is fairly obvious you are not in that
7 photograph at all because you were wearing a fairly
8 short anorak, were you not?
9 A. Yes, that is right.
10 Q. There is no-one there wearing an anorak or
11 wearing hair of the length you were wearing your hair
12 at that time; is that right?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. So it would seem that when this photograph
15 was taken you were certainly not talking to
16 Michael Kelly or beside Michael Kelly?
17 A. No, that is correct.
18 Q. If this photograph was taken a minute or so
19 before he was shot, do you accept now that in fact you
20 are wrong in your belief and suggestion that you were
21 talking to Michael Kelly for about 10 minutes at the
22 gable wall before he was shot?
23 A. No, no, I am sorry, no.
24 Q. Then if this photograph was taken about a
25 minute or so before he was shot, how do you explain
1 that you are not anywhere to be seen in it and that
2 Mr Kelly is not standing where you thought he was
3 standing?
4 A. Well, who said this was taken a minute or so
5 before it happened?
6 Q. It is a combination of factors, including the
7 evidence of a photographer called Mr Robert White who
8 took a subsequent photograph. It is taking into
9 account the position of the army vehicles that are seen
10 in the background of the photograph?
11 A. Well, I am sorry, all I can do is give you my
12 evidence of what I remember, and I remember standing
13 talking to Michael. I can remember practically what we
14 said, what we talked about.
15 Q. You said in your statement that you tried for
16 30 years nearly to block out all memories of what
17 happened that day?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. Could it be that in now beginning to recall
20 what happened you have got everything completely mixed
21 up?
22 A. Not as regards Michael, I do not think so,
23 no.
24 Q. When you say you do not think so, does that
25 mean that could be the case, that your recollection
1 could be just completely wrong?
2 A. I do not think so, but I mean, who knows what
3 can happen with the human mind.
4 Q. Looking at photograph P635A, do you see
5 Mr Kelly there towards the right -- the person we
6 believe to be Mr Kelly -- with the long curly hair and
7 the suit standing more or less in the same position as
8 in last photograph?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you see yourself anywhere in that
11 photograph?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Again, you accept that Mr Kelly is nowhere
14 near the point that you said he was at?
15 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Norris, it is the Chairman
16 again. Do you see or understand the figure that
17 Mr MacDonald is suggesting to you is Mr Kelly?
18 A. Yes, I can see that figure, yes.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Does it look like Mr Kelly to
20 you from what you remember of him?
21 A. Well, it is quite possible, but I mean that
22 is from the back, so I do not know.
23 LORD SAVILLE: I think we have to be a little
24 bit careful, Mr MacDonald. I know there is some
25 evidence that this figure is in fact Mr Kelly, but I do
1 not think it is entirely fair to Mr Norris to suggest
2 to him point blank that he is wrong. He could well be
3 wrong if indeed that is Mr Kelly, but your recollection
4 is as you have told us; is that right?
5 A. Yes, that is right.
6 MR MACDONALD: All the evidence we have to
7 date suggests this is Michael Kelly. Are you
8 suggesting, Mr Norris, this might not be Michael Kelly?
9 A. I am not suggesting anything. I am only
10 giving the evidence as I can remember it, that is all
11 I can do.
12 Q. Does the appearance of this person in terms
13 of his hair, his height, his size, his build, what he
14 is wearing, correspond with your understanding of what
15 Mr Kelly looked like on the day?
16 A. Yes, it could quite well be Michael. I mean,
17 yes, it could be, yes.
18 Q. The question is: do all those things
19 correspond with your recollection of what Mr Kelly
20 looked like on the day?
21 A. Yes, I suppose so, yes. I mean, I cannot say
22 any more than that, but it is from the back, it is a
23 picture of someone with dark clothing and longish hair.
24 Q. Putting it another way: is there anyone in
25 that photograph who looks more like Michael Kelly than
1 that person?
2 A. No.
3 Q. If you go back to P635, is there anyone near
4 the gable wall that looks more like Michael Kelly than
5 the person that we believe to be Michael Kelly?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Can you think of any explanation why, if
8 these photographs were taken a minute or so or less
9 before Michael Kelly was shot --
10 LORD SAVILLE: Sorry, Mr MacDonald, could we
11 look at the other photograph?
12 MR MACDONALD: Is that 635, my Lord?
13 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, yes. It is just, looking
14 at those two photographs very quickly, the other one
15 appears to give this person a lighter coat, but it may
16 well be the photographic reproduction. If we could
17 switch back again to the other one or put both on the
18 screen together, yes.
19 MR TOOHEY: Mr MacDonald, in the end it is a
20 matter of evidence, is it not? If the Tribunal has
21 evidence which it accepts that this is Michael Kelly,
22 then some explanation has to be found for the evidence
23 that Mr Norris has been giving and various explanations
24 may come to mind; he may be confused; he may have
25 forgotten or he may be right and there may be a time
1 interval involved, but I am not sure it is very helpful
2 to put questions to him based on hypothesis.
3 MR MACDONALD: I am not sure the questions
4 are based on hypotheses, sir. They are based on the
5 other evidence, sir, that has been heard by the
6 Tribunal.
7 If I could go to the next photograph and ask
8 a question which is not based on a hypothesis of any
9 kind, if you could turn to P637. When you were shown
10 that photograph you said that that fits with your
11 recollection of where Michael Kelly was shot.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Do you remember saying that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Do you see that that is close to the kerb?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The kerb we have seen in the previous
18 photographs. If you want to refresh your memory about
19 that, if you would look again at 635. Do you see where
20 the kerb is there on the right-hand side of the
21 photograph?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, that kerb is nowhere near the point that
24 you suggest Mr Kelly fell at; is it?
25 A. No, it is not, no.
1 Q. How do you explain that?
2 A. I cannot.
3 Q. The only explanation is that your
4 recollection is completely wrong about that; is it not?
5 A. Well, I can -- again, all I can give you is
6 what I can remember and I can remember what I gave in
7 my statement is what I remember.
8 Q. I am not suggesting you are being dishonest
9 about this, Mr Norris. All I am suggesting is that
10 your recollection is completely wrong, for whatever
11 reason; are you prepared to accept that?
12 A. I do not think so, to be honest.
13 Q. You are not prepared to accept that?
14 A. No, I can remember Michael Kelly stepping out
15 to pick up a stone and he was only about a metre out
16 from the edge of the wall.
17 Q. If your recollection is that he fell at your
18 feet at the gable wall, and there is a photograph
19 showing where he fell?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. It must follow -- this is the last time
22 I will ask you this -- that your recollection about
23 this incident is completely wrong?
24 A. You mean my recollection of the whole
25 incident, everything?
1 Q. I am suggesting your recollection about the
2 whole incident is completely wrong, but in relation to
3 this particular point, where Michael Kelly was at the
4 time he was shot, you are completely wrong?
5 A. (Witness shaking head) No, I am sorry --
6 well, if you can prove me wrong, great, I mean I can
7 only give you what I recollect. I am sorry, that is
8 all I can give, that is what I came here to do.
9 Q. You do not accept that this photograph proves
10 you wrong?
11 LORD SAVILLE: I think, really, Mr Norris is
12 undoubtedly doing his best.
13 What is being suggested, Mr Norris, if you
14 look at the photograph on the right of our screen, that
15 shows a body, we believe from quite a lot of evidence,
16 to be Michael Kelly. He has actually got a scarf; do
17 you remember that on him on that day or not?
18 A. No, not really, no.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Anyway, what Mr MacDonald is
20 saying: if you look at that you can see that he is
21 substantially further out from the gable wall than you
22 remember?
23 A. Yes.
24 LORD SAVILLE: What is being suggested is
25 that, in those circumstances, just taking that, your
1 memory of where he was could be at fault because, on
2 the face of it, he looks as though he has fallen
3 substantially further out into the street; that is what
4 is being suggested. What would your answer be to that
5 suggestion? It is just you still have this picture in
6 your mind of him being closer to the wall?
7 A. Yes, simple as that, I cannot --
8 LORD SAVILLE: I do not think we can take
9 that further, Mr MacDonald. As I repeat, Mr Norris,
10 nobody is suggesting you are being in any sense
11 dishonest. It is a long time ago. We do have the
12 advantage of these photographs, of course, and on the
13 face of it, it does look as though he was further out
14 than you recollect him to be?
15 A. Yeah.
16 LORD SAVILLE: There we are. Yes,
17 Mr MacDonald.
18 MR MACDONALD: Mr Norris, you then go on to
19 say that as he stood beside you he reached down to pick
20 up a stone and, as he stood up again, he pulled his arm
21 back and bent his body as if to throw the stone
22 northwards up Rossville Street. The impression you are
23 creating there is that he pulled his arm back, his body
24 was bent backwards and he would presumably have been
25 sideways-on to some extent to the soldiers at the time
1 he was shot; would that be fair?
2 A. I really -- I mean, he just went to throw a
3 stone and then he fell, that is my recollection.
4 I mean, I cannot remember every action and every move
5 that he took.
6 Q. Well, in your statement at paragraph 10 at
7 AN24.3 you do purport to remember every action. What
8 you say -- you can change this if you are not sure
9 about this -- do you see the second last sentence:
10 "As he stood up again, he pulled his arm back
11 and bent his body as if to throw the stone northwards
12 up Rossville Street."
13 A. Yeah, that is exactly what it says, he just,
14 you know -- you bend your body when you are going to
15 throw a stone.
16 Q. You have just demonstrated for the record,
17 you bent your back?
18 A. Slightly, yes.
19 Q. Backwards?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And turned slightly in order to throw the
22 stone?
23 A. Well, yes.
24 Q. You see, the track of the bullet that killed
25 Mr Kelly is consistent with him bending forward -- to
1 some extent this appears in the photographs -- and that
2 he was more or less facing the direction in which the
3 bullet was travelling or came from; could you explain
4 that?
5 A. Now, I am not a forensic expert. All I can
6 say is that Michael bent down to pick up a stone, went
7 to throw it and fell over, that is as much as I can
8 say.
9 Q. Well, the bullet -- you can take it from me,
10 Mr Norris -- travelled approximately 30 degrees in
11 a downwards direction, which is consistent with him
12 bending forward at the time he sustained this injury,
13 not bending backwards.
14 Could it be, in the light of that objective
15 evidence that you would accept that your recollection
16 about him picking up a stone and throwing, or appearing
17 to throw a stone, is wrong?
18 A. No.
19 Q. No. There has also been evidence called from
20 witnesses including Mr Ronnie Wood, Mr Hugh O'Boyle,
21 that Mr Kelly was not throwing stones at the time he
22 was shot; are you prepared to accept that other people
23 may be right and you are wrong?
24 A. I am prepared to give you what I recall, and
25 what I recall is what is in my statement and what I am
1 saying now.
2 Q. You also say in your statement that you
3 helped carry Michael Kelly. In fact, looking at
4 paragraphs 12 and 13 of the same page that is on the
5 screen, do you see there you say that you had no
6 immediate fear for your own safety in paragraph 12.
7 Then in paragraph 13:
8 "A group of six or seven men came to help me
9 to carry Michael Kelly to safety."
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. If I could refer you to the Keville
12 transcript at X2.32.27: do you see in the bottom half
13 of the page there, the paragraph starting with the
14 words "from the troops ..."
15 A. Yeah, yeah.
16 Q. This is a paragraph that has been read to you
17 and you have heard the tape of it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Apart from the fact that you were suggesting,
20 apparently, according to this transcript, that you saw
21 at least six people cut down in a hail of bullets, what
22 you say there apparently is:
23 "I sat on unable to do anything because if
24 I had have even looked round I would have been shot."
25 Do you accept that is completely inconsistent
1 with the suggestion that you now make, that you
2 actually did quite a lot, in particular you helped to
3 carry Michael Kelly?
4 A. As I say I do not get your point. You mean
5 that --
6 Q. It appears that in 1972 you were saying to
7 Kathleen Keville, the American civil rights worker,
8 that you were unable to do anything because if you had
9 even looked round the corner, you would have been shot,
10 whereas now you are saying that you actually went out
11 from behind the shelter of the gable wall to
12 Michael Kelly's body and carried it back to the shelter
13 of the gable wall?
14 A. Yeah, quite a few of us did that, yes.
15 Q. All I am asking is whether you accept that
16 your current recollection is completely at odds with
17 this 1972 transcript?
18 A. I cannot remember making this 1972 transcript
19 and I think, as you can see too by this transcript, it
20 is very rushed or hurried, I mean, that is not a
21 complete statement if, if I made it.
22 Q. Have you ever been interviewed by an American
23 civil rights worker?
24 A. No, I cannot remember being interviewed by an
25 American civil rights worker.
1 Q. Do you remember seeing the written statement
2 that appears AN24.15; you have seen that before, have
3 you not?
4 A. Can I just have a look at it for a moment and
5 then I will let you know? (Pause) No, I do not
6 remember seeing that before.
7 LORD SAVILLE: Is this one of the statements
8 that might have been prepared from the Keville tape?
9 MR MACDONALD: Yes, sir.
10 LORD SAVILLE: So, Mr Norris, to help you: we
11 believe this is something that was typed out from that
12 tape that we had been showing you.
13 A. I have listened to, yes. No, I do not
14 remember seeing that before.
15 MR MACDONALD: When you heard the tape being
16 played earlier this afternoon, did you not feel that
17 although you may not believe that is your voice, that
18 it actually sounds like you very much, does it not?
19 A. I am not too sure, there are some words used
20 there that I felt would not have been me at that time,
21 you know, "bloke" and a few other words used. I did
22 not think it was me when I listened to it.
23 Q. In any event, the account given in 1972
24 cannot be reconciled with the account given now, is
25 that not right --
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mr MacDonald, I am not sure
2 that is entirely fair because Mr Norris's evidence is,
3 certainly with regard to the barricade, if I understand
4 him correctly, that there were two incidents of
5 shooting at the barricade: one when Michael Kelly was
6 shot, and then a later occasion when there were other
7 shots coming down on the barricade. So it is not,
8 I think, entirely right to say that it is completely
9 inconsistent.
10 What you can say, of course, is that the tape
11 does not seem to contain anything relating to what
12 Mr Norris now says he remembers about Michael Kelly
13 being shot with him beside him, and helping to carry
14 him round the corner. I follow that. I am not sure
15 you can say it is completely inconsistent because it
16 may be an omission rather than saying something which
17 simply cannot fit with this witness's present account.
18 MR MACDONALD: As far as you made the
19 suggestion in 1972 that you were unable to do anything
20 because if you had even looked round, you would have
21 been shot. That cannot be reconciled with the
22 suggestion you are now making, that you did actually do
23 something and went out and carried the body of
24 Michael Kelly back.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr MacDonald, I think the same
1 point applies. I am not sure how far we can take
2 this. As I think Mr Toohey said a few minutes ago,
3 quite a lot of these in the end are forensic points.
4 It is quite right for you to show Mr Norris this
5 material to see whether, in those circumstances having
6 looked at it, his recollection, he agrees, must be at
7 fault or may well be at fault. I think you have
8 probably already done that.
9 MR MACDONALD: I will not pursue the matter
10 sir.
11 The final matter I want to ask you about,
12 Mr Norris, is this: in paragraph 14 of your statement
13 at AN24.3, you say that you remember a couple of men
14 who were part of the group that carried Michael from
15 where he had been shot, and that one of them was
16 Mr Kelly.
17 Mr Kelly has given evidence to this Inquiry,
18 today in fact. What he says is that he was not
19 involved in carrying his brother from the scene of the
20 shooting at the rubble barricade, and that he did not
21 come across his brother until he saw him in Abbey Park
22 being carried out of a house in Abbey Park.
23 Are you prepared to accept your recollection
24 about that is wrong?
25 A. Well, it must be, yes. If that is the case,
1 I am surprised, it must be.
2 Q. You are surprised?
3 A. Yeah.
4 MR HOYT: Mr MacDonald, what really happened
5 was that there was a man by the name of John Kelly that
6 said that, there may be more than one.
7 MR MACDONALD: I do not think so, sir,
8 because he says "one of them was John Kelly who I knew
9 quite well and another was his brother-in-law".
10 We know that John Kelly and Michael Kelly's
11 brother-in-law were two of the people who carried or
12 accompanied Michael Kelly's body from the house at
13 Abbey Park to the ambulance?
14 A. I could be wrong, certainly, but my memory
15 was that John and his brother-in-law, George, were two
16 of the people that helped carry Michael into the house.
17 MR MACDONALD: Thank you very much,
18 Mr Norris.
19 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
20 LORD GIFFORD: My name is Anthony Gifford and
21 I represent the family of James Wray. I only want to
22 ask you one or two questions about the scene at the
23 gable end after the two young men, whoever they were,
24 ran out and fell and you had been pulled back. You
25 were, you have told us, really quite hysterical at that
1 time from what you had seen?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did the priest help to calm you down, comfort
4 you?
5 A. I think everyone was hysterical at that time
6 and I do not remember -- well, yeah, I think he did try
7 to comfort me, but whether he succeeded or not is
8 a different matter.
9 Q. You say one of the things that happened was
10 that a prayer was said?
11 A. Yes, that is right.
12 Q. That was your idea?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was it a group of you who gathered round and
15 said a little prayer?
16 A. If I can remember correctly, we knelt down.
17 Q. Sorry?
18 A. We knelt down, I think, if I can remember.
19 Q. You knelt down and prayed?
20 A. Yes, if I can remember correctly.
21 Q. I know you said in your statement that you
22 really cannot put a time between the two men falling in
23 Glenfada and the time the soldier came round, but it
24 seems from what you say there was time enough to pray,
25 at least?
1 A. (Witness nodding).
2 Q. The prayer took place in that time?
3 A. For a brief prayer, yes.
4 Q. It would have been a couple of minutes?
5 A. Yes, probably.
6 Q. I will not press you further than that on
7 it. During which -- I do not know whether you remember
8 now -- shooting was going on close to you?
9 A. At that time while we were praying,
10 I honestly cannot remember if the shooting had stopped
11 or it was still continuing, I just cannot remember.
12 Q. You described the actions of two soldiers who
13 did come round the corner. You have said that one of
14 them you think you have seen in a video, one with a
15 moustache?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. We do have a soldier who is on a video
18 talking, who was one of the soldiers who came round the
19 corner. I would like you to see that video. It may
20 not be the same video you saw. What is more
21 significant, perhaps, is whether it is the same soldier
22 you saw. Could we have video 22, please?
23 (Video played)
24 Was that the soldier who you saw on a video?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can you say one way or the other whether that
2 was either of the soldiers who came round the corner?
3 A. No, not that I can recollect, they were not
4 the soldiers.
5 Q. I emphasised that that video was taken about
6 1994, but it certainly does not correspond with the --
7 A. No, I saw that video too, I think, if I can
8 remember.
9 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
10 MR CLARKE: It is definitely not the soldier,
11 definitely not the soldier, as far as you are --
12 A. No.
13 Q. My name is Clarke and I appear on behalf of a
14 number of the soldiers, sir. One matter, and it is
15 based on page AN24.4 of your statement. It will come
16 up, Mr Norris. It is to do with Mr Nash, the older man
17 going to the barricade, do you remember?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Could we enlarge paragraph 18? Right in the
20 centre, do you see:
21 "I could see a man who I now know to be
22 Mr Nash making his way up Rossville Street ..."; do you
23 see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All I want to explore with you is what you
1 did and what one goes through having witnessed what you
2 did, talking about it afterwards. Do you remember, for
3 example, using this as an exercise; do you remember how
4 you would have found out that his name was Nash?
5 A. Probably having read about it or talked about
6 it later.
7 Q. Do you remember who you would have talked
8 with, for example?
9 A. Oh, I do not know, it might have been
10 friends. It could have been anyone, it could have been
11 just people saying "oh, and this happened" and "that
12 happened" and "this person" ...
13 Q. Did you see television programmes about it?
14 A. I tried to avoid everything possible about
15 Bloody Sunday.
16 Q. What, in order not to revive the memory?
17 A. To not revive the memory, yes.
18 Q. Notwithstanding that, in the month or so, or
19 maybe even the year or so following it, obviously there
20 was little else spoken of as far as any conflict with
21 British troops was concerned?
22 A. Well, not for me, I left in May to go and
23 live and work in England, so I only had actually, what,
24 two months of Bloody Sunday being spoken about and in
25 the news, et cetera, discussed.
1 Q. Do you remember the main source of
2 information about names of people around that time?
3 A. The main source of information would have
4 come probably from my statement to Eversheds.
5 Q. So not until -- we are talking 1990 --
6 LORD SAVILLE: I think that may have been a
7 misunderstanding between you, Mr Clarke.
8 MR CLARKE: There may well be -- between
9 Bloody Sunday and when you made the statement to
10 Eversheds.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember if you gave a full account to
13 anyone at all, to your own recollection?
14 A. No, to no-one.
15 Q. You understand it is suggested you made that
16 tape, but that apart, did you ever discuss with anyone
17 what you saw and said "do you know what his name was"?
18 A. No, I spoke about parts of what I had seen
19 only very occasionally to my wife, maybe occasionally
20 to a member of my family, but it would only be a part
21 of it and not all of my story. I can never remember
22 having repeated my full story until the Eversheds
23 interview.
24 Q. How did they bring it back to mind for you?
25 A. Through photographs, through trying to jog my
1 memory as to did I know this person, that person,
2 et cetera, et cetera.
3 Q. Were you asked if you knew McDaid, for
4 example, Michael McDaid?
5 A. I really cannot remember whether they gave
6 specific names, or whether they just gave me
7 photographs and asked whether I recognised this person
8 in the photograph or that person.
9 Again, I really have tried my best, keep this
10 in the back of my mind, even after giving my interview
11 to Eversheds, I did not look or read about it very much
12 at all.
13 Q. When you were trying to piece together the
14 different parts were there any or many names that were
15 suggested to you that meant absolutely nothing?
16 Jim Wray is an example that I wanted you to help us
17 about. Do you remember if Jim Wray was mentioned to
18 you?
19 A. Possibly. Again, I mean, it could be I have
20 read it in a book or a newspaper, or something, and
21 seen the name, I mean --
22 Q. Again, I do not criticise it for a moment.
23 You have presumably read books about Bloody Sunday
24 because you were an eyewitness?
25 A. Well, I was given the books as presents, but
1 I am afraid I could not read very much. I just looked
2 briefly at it. It is somewhere at home now, I do not
3 know where.
4 Q. Of course, and then put it aside?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr Norris, thank you very much.
7 MS McGAHEY: One matter, sir. Could we have
8 P428 on the screen again, please. Mr Norris, you have
9 been asked several times now about the area in which
10 Michael Kelly fell. If you have control of the screen
11 could you mark on this photograph the location, as
12 accurately as you can, in which you believe he fell?
13 A. Where he fell, yes: round about there (marked
14 with a red arrow - AN24.19).
15 Q. Do you think he fell where the head of your
16 arrow is?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Where were you when that happened?
19 A. (Marked with a blue arrow - AN24.19).
20 Q. Thank you very much. Could that be saved as
21 AN24.19, with the head of the red arrow showing the
22 location of Michael Kelly and the blue arrow showing
23 the location of Mr Norris. Those are all my
24 questions. Thank you, sir.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Norris, the Chairman
1 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
2 assist this Inquiry. Thank you.
3 A. Thank you very much.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Ms McGahey, I understand that
5 the order for the witnesses tomorrow is in fact as
6 published?
7 MS McGAHEY: Yes, I believe so, sir.
8 LORD SAVILLE: We will come back to the
9 evidence tomorrow. About 3 o'clock this afternoon the
10 Tribunal will be reassembling here because we have
11 asked Mr Keenan, the solicitor, to attend because we
12 are rather concerned with some delays that have
13 occurred in the presentation of signed statements.
14 Counsel are under no obligation whatsoever to attend,
15 but the proceedings will be in public.
16 (2.45 pm)
17 (A short adjournment)
18 (3.10 pm)
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Keenan, we have asked for
20 you to come here this afternoon because we have become
21 very concerned with what appear to be very substantial
22 and, on the face of it, difficult to excuse delays in
23 getting back to us the signed statements of, in
24 particular, Kathleen Keville and Mr Grant.
25 According to our information here, you must
1 tell us if we have it wrong, that as far as
2 Kathleen Keville is concerned your firm was sent a copy
3 of a statement by Eversheds here in a letter dated
4 8th May for you, of course, to take to or discuss with
5 Kathy Keville to get it signed or changed as
6 appropriate and sent back. That was 8th May. What
7 happened?
8 MR KEENAN: Mr Chairman, the statement was
9 sent to Kathy Keville at the beginning of June and,
10 indeed, in addition to me sending it, Eversheds also
11 faxed her a copy of it, which is also referred in the
12 letter of 8th May, that they had faxed her a copy to
13 Boston as well.
14 I have discussed the matter with her on a
15 couple of occasions by telephone and she had promised
16 that she would get back to me. I think it might be
17 helpful if I explained some of the difficulties that
18 occurred to Ms Keville, or that might be attended on
19 Ms Keville.
20 LORD SAVILLE: We can in a moment, but the
21 difficulty, Mr Keenan, is this: according to the
22 information which we have -- and you can of course
23 correct us if we have it wrong -- Kathleen Keville was
24 interviewed on 3rd May; on 8th May the draft statement
25 was despatched to you and the witness; on 17th July
1 Eversheds wrote asking whether you had had the
2 opportunity to review the draft statement.
3 On 9th August a fax was sent to you
4 requesting the signed statement by return; on
5 28th August, Eversheds inquired of your office what the
6 position was; on 30th August a further chaser was done
7 by telephone through Eversheds.
8 On 4th September Eversheds sent a fax to your
9 office asking for the statement; on 1st October a
10 further Inquiry was made of your office by Eversheds;
11 on 9th November a further inquiry was made and it was
12 not until 15th November that there was any response.
13 Now why were those requests not answered?
14 MR KEENAN: The requests to me?
15 LORD SAVILLE: Yes.
16 MR KEENAN: Well, I was hoping that as I was
17 responding to each request from Eversheds, I was hoping
18 not to give negative information but to give positive
19 information, and I was attending on attempting to
20 contact Ms Keville by telephone stressing the urgency
21 of contacting me.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Would it not have been
23 sensible, at least to have telephoned Eversheds or got
24 in touch with them otherwise to say something. As it
25 is, we have in fact a complete silence from you from
1 May to November; now, what is the reason for that?
2 MR KEENAN: In retrospect, I apologise
3 entirely for that.
4 LORD SAVILLE: You must appreciate as
5 a result of your complete silence it would seem, from
6 our side at least, that you simply failed to get on
7 with the job; you understand that, do you not, you
8 understand why we have asked for you to come this
9 afternoon?
10 MR KEENAN: I totally understand why you have
11 asked me to come this afternoon. Could I explain the
12 difficulties in contacting Ms Keville, which I think
13 are somewhat unique?
14 She is not only a sole practitioner in her
15 office, which she is, but she has no secretaries. So
16 it means if she is not in the office it is impossible
17 to contact her.
18 Secondly, she does a lot of guardian ad litem
19 which requires her to visit clients in areas which are
20 a long way away from her office and, consequently, she
21 is in the office (on her own admission) very few hours,
22 if at all, in a day.
23 Indeed, my first verbal contact with her for
24 quite a period of time was two nights ago when she said
25 that I would be the last person she would be speaking
1 to prior to leaving to go to Thanksgiving and she
2 promised me she would address all the issues concerned
3 in the statement and in the letter by the week
4 following the end of Thanksgiving.
5 LORD SAVILLE: On how much occasions between
6 8th May, when you received the draft of Kathy Keville's
7 statement, and 15th November did you attempt to get in
8 touch with Kathleen Keville?
9 MR KEENAN: Unfortunately, I have not the
10 bundle of documents which I was taking with me today,
11 but unfortunately due to an accident at the office
12 I cannot take them with me.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Can you tell me roughly on how
14 many occasions you attempted --
15 MR KEENAN: Approximately 10.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Would that be recorded in file
17 notes in your office?
18 MR KEENAN: Some of them are, some of them
19 are not.
20 LORD SAVILLE: What form did these attempted
21 to communications take?
22 MR KEENAN: All telephone calls.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Of that number of occasions,
24 on how many occasions were you able actually to speak
25 to Kathleen?
1 MR KEENAN: On none of those occasions.
2 LORD SAVILLE: It is very unfortunate,
3 Mr Keenan, that for some reason you have yet to explain
4 you did not keep us informed of your difficulties,
5 despite repeated reminders from Eversheds, and indeed
6 from my own Inquiry staff, as to what the position
7 was. That is really quite unacceptable, is it not?
8 MR KEENAN: I accept that it is unacceptable,
9 but I was hoping to convey good news as opposed to no
10 news, and that is my reason for not replying.
11 LORD SAVILLE: There is something else we
12 ought to mention. If you have this bundle of
13 correspondence -- tell us again -- just one moment,
14 Mr Keenan -- according to an attendance note we have
15 from Kathy Jones of Eversheds, you told her on
16 15th November that you were still waiting to receive
17 the draft statements of Kathleen Keville and
18 Larry Grant, but you had received them, had you not,
19 months before?
20 MR KEENAN: That is correct. If that was
21 what she has recorded, it is a misunderstanding of what
22 I said.
23 LORD SAVILLE: What do you recall saying to
24 her?
25 MR KEENAN: What I recalled saying to her was
1 that I had sent -- I did not say I had sent the
2 originals, but what I said was could she send me fresh
3 copies.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Why did you make that
5 request?
6 MR KEENAN: Because I had sent the originals
7 to both Mr Grant and Ms Keville without taking copies.
8 LORD SAVILLE: What about Mr Grant, then?
9 MR KEENAN: Mr Grant is in a somewhat
10 different position, but he is difficult to contact due
11 to the fact that he is an adjudicator in the
12 Immigration Appeals Tribunal and he is in court most
13 days, and it is only on a very odd occasion that I can
14 contact him by telephone.
15 Again, I have spoken to him and again, he has
16 promised me that he will have the signed statement with
17 me by the end of, not this week, but next week.
18 LORD SAVILLE: When did you speak to him,
19 Mr Keenan?
20 MR KEENAN: I spoke to him two nights ago.
21 LORD SAVILLE: I can go through it again,
22 perhaps I had better for your benefit, but you get the
23 draft statement sent to you by Eversheds on 20th July.
24 Reminders are then sent to your office on 8th August,
25 28th August, 30th August, 4th September, 1st October
1 and 9th November to which no reply is sent.
2 MR KEENAN: Again I repeat, I was hoping to
3 contact Mr Grant personally to see what was the problem
4 in relation to the statement, because my reading of the
5 statement it should not have presented any difficulty
6 to him in relation to the matter.
7 I was aware that Ms Keville had some
8 difficulties in relation to her statement.
9 LORD SAVILLE: I repeat, Mr Keenan, tell me
10 if I am wrong, but this seems to us to be quite
11 unacceptable behaviour because you know enough about
12 this Inquiry to appreciate the amount of work that has
13 been done and continues to be done by Eversheds and by
14 the Inquiry staff, who then have to waste their time
15 writing to you repeated requests for information on the
16 position and getting no reply; it is a waste of time
17 and, what is more, it is seriously impeding the course
18 of this Inquiry.
19 Now, do you have any good reason for taking
20 the course of action that you appear to have taken?
21 MR KEENAN: It was a misguided attempt on my
22 part to shield the witnesses from scrutiny, is the only
23 answer that I can give you.
24 LORD SAVILLE: I am sorry, I do not
25 understand that answer.
1 MR KEENAN: Well, I did not want to
2 continually state to Eversheds that, (a), I had been
3 unable to contact Ms Keville or I had been unable to
4 contact Mr Grant.
5 MR TOOHEY: Why did you not, under those
6 circumstances, write a letter, send a fax, send an
7 e-mail or something to make clear the urgency of the
8 matter? I just do not understand that, Mr Keenan.
9 MR KEENAN: I was dealing with a person whom
10 I am told is the equivalent of a judge and I was not
11 going to upbraid him personally for not responding to
12 me, given his case load or his workload in the
13 circumstances.
14 MR TOOHEY: No-one is suggesting you upbraid
15 him or her, for that matter. You would ask,
16 presumably, whether there was a problem so you could
17 report to Eversheds that either there was a problem or
18 there was not.
19 MR KEENAN: Well, again, I am dealing with
20 the equivalent of a judge in London, a solicitor in
21 America, and those are the only two witnesses that I
22 have had any difficulty with in getting their
23 statements back to the Tribunal on time.
24 LORD SAVILLE: When did you send Mr Grant his
25 draft statement?
1 MR KEENAN: Mr Grant was sent his draft
2 statement to Taylor House on, I think it was on
3 31st July 2001.
4 MR HOYT: You are quite certain of that, are
5 you? We understand that Mr Grant has not received that
6 statement yet.
7 MR KEENAN: That is what he has told me and
8 that was why I requested Eversheds to fax me a second
9 copy, which was then faxed to him either the same day
10 or the following day, and that was even before the
11 Tribunal started, as I understand it, to contact
12 Mr Grant direct.
13 MR HOYT: Another potential witness,
14 Mr Keenan, by the name of Tony Smyth that apparently
15 has not been contacted either; is that correct?
16 MR KEENAN: Yes, Mr Smyth unfortunately was
17 not able to be interviewed at the original time when
18 Mr Grant was being interviewed because of an illness,
19 or very serious illness to his partner, which was
20 regarded as terminal at the time and, again, I left a
21 considerable period of time without contacting him.
22 I have attempted to contact him again by
23 telephone on a number of occasions within the past
24 14 days, but there is no answer to my number that
25 I have in relation to that and no later than this
1 morning before I attended, I again attempted to contact
2 him by telephone.
3 MR TOOHEY: There is another similar
4 situation in regard to a man called Bond.
5 MR KEENAN: Well, the situation in relation
6 to Mr Bond is that was linked. Mr Jones had suggested
7 that we would conduct the telephone interview on the
8 same day that we would interview Mr Smyth in London.
9 MR TOOHEY: Is Mr Bond aware of that
10 arrangement?
11 MR KEENAN: Mr Bond is aware of that
12 arrangement, I mean, I was speaking to his father this
13 morning prior to coming to the Tribunal.
14 MR HOYT: There has been nothing arranged
15 with Mr Smyth?
16 MR KEENAN: Nothing has been arranged about
17 Mr Smyth because I have been unable to contact him.
18 LORD SAVILLE: Can we go back to Mr Grant,
19 Mr Keenan, because Mr Grant has told us that you told
20 him you had not received a draft statement from
21 Eversheds?
22 MR KEENAN: That is a misunderstanding --
23 LORD SAVILLE: That is another
24 misunderstanding, is it?
25 MR KEENAN: It is.
1 LORD SAVILLE: We have two
2 misunderstandings: one from your client, Mr Grant, and
3 one from the lady from Eversheds?
4 MR KEENAN: That is correct.
5 LORD SAVILLE: Both of whom say you told them
6 you had not received the draft statements either of
7 Mr Grant or Ms Keville.
8 MR KEENAN: No, because in actual fact I have
9 enclosed the copy statement to Mr Grant, so I would
10 have no reason for saying to him that I had not
11 received it.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Yes. Mr Keenan, you are of
13 course entitled to say anything more you would like to
14 say. I am bound to say at the moment the unanimous
15 view of the Tribunal is that they find your conduct of
16 these matters over the previous months quite
17 unacceptable and your explanations of what have been
18 put to you quite unconvincing.
19 MR KEENAN: I regret that very much, sir.
20 LORD SAVILLE: I am bound to say also that we
21 did consider on reading this file whether the matter
22 was so serious that it should be referred to your
23 professional organisation. We have decided not to take
24 that step, at least at present, but we do require from
25 you now publicly, please, your assurance that you will
1 properly co-operate with the Inquiry and do your very
2 best to obtain statements from your clients, which we
3 have been seeking now for many months.
4 MR KEENAN: I have no hesitating in giving
5 you that undertaking.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Very well, thank you.
7 9.30 tomorrow morning, please.
8 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on Thursday,
9 22nd November 2001)
10 MRS SADIE McGINLEY, sworn
11 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH............................ 1
12 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................. 9
13 MR JOSEPH THADDEUS MAHON, sworn
14 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 10
15 Questioned by Mr Treacy............................. 42
16 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD.......................... 43
17 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 49
18 Questioned by MR ELIAS.............................. 69
19 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN........................73
20 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD.......................... 77
21 MR JOHN JAMES KELLY, sworn
22 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH........................... 81
23 MR PATRICK JOSEPH NORRIS, sworn
24 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY............................ 92
25 Questioned by MR MACDONALD......................... 147
1 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD......................... 165
2 Questioned by MR P CLARKE.......................... 168