1 Tuesday, 20th November 2001
2 (9.40 am)
3 MR JOHN STEVENSON, sworn
4 Questioned by MR RAWAT
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Stevenson, you can see who
6 is talking to you. I am the Chairman of the Tribunal.
7 The questions will come from the barristers, the people
8 sitting in front of me. Could you try and remember to
9 keep close to that microphone in front of you. You can
10 pull the microphone towards you if you like and then we
11 can all hear what you have to say.
12 MR RAWAT: Mr Stevenson, do you have with you
13 a copy of your statement to this Inquiry which you
14 signed on 10th May?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. That was in 1999. Are the contents of that
17 statement true to the best of your knowledge and
18 belief?
19 A. Aye, they are.
20 Q. We have all had the chance to read your
21 statement and so I just want to ask you some
22 supplementary questions. We have the first page on the
23 screen and if we look and highlight, please, paragraphs
24 5 to 7, you confirm in your statement to this Inquiry
25 that you were in fact on the march?
1 A. I was, aye.
2 Q. Though, as you say, you told the
3 Widgery Tribunal that you had been in Mr Rogan's house?
4 A. Aye.
5 Q. And you say in these paragraphs we have up on
6 the screen that you made your way along Abbey Street
7 and there had a conversation with Gerard McKinney who
8 you had known at school?
9 A. Aye.
10 Q. Then you cut across Columbcille Court towards
11 the southwest corner of Glenfada Park North?
12 A. Aye.
13 Q. And in paragraph 7 you describe a large crowd
14 around the southwest corner of Glenfada Park trying to
15 get out to Lisfannon Park and you say:
16 "There were hundreds of people and there was
17 quite a crush."
18 A. Aye.
19 Q. And that made you decide to take a different
20 route home.
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. During your journey, though, along
23 Abbey Street and then across Columbcille Court towards
24 Glenfada Park North, had you been conscious of hearing
25 any shooting at all?
1 A. Aye, well, I heard a lot of banging, noise,
2 you know, but -- shooting or whatever, but (inaudible)
3 also they were throwing, you know they were.
4 Q. When you say "banging and noise", could you
5 hear the sounds of rioting?
6 A. Aye, I did, aye.
7 Q. Could you hear the sounds of rubber bullets
8 being fired?
9 A. Aye, I did, aye.
10 Q. On top of that you could also hear gunfire,
11 could you?
12 A. Aye, well, there was -- aye, there was guns
13 shooting all right.
14 Q. If we go over to the next page and highlight
15 the top, please, down to paragraph 10, you say there
16 that you, having decided to take a different route
17 home, you started walking back in the direction of
18 Little Diamond and you suddenly heard people shout
19 "they are coming in"?
20 A. Aye, that is right.
21 Q. And the shooting started and it was rifle
22 shots?
23 A. The shooting was going on all right, you
24 know, it was rifle shots all right and they were saying
25 "they are coming in" you know, so everybody started
1 panicking. Before they were walking, just pushing
2 their way through, trying to get about, but when the
3 army started coming in shooting, the people started
4 panicking, you now.
5 Q. When you heard people shout "they are coming
6 in", did you take that to mean that the army was coming
7 into the Bogside?
8 A. I did, aye.
9 Q. You did not think that they were actually
10 coming into Glenfada Park North?
11 A. No, I just assumed they were coming in at the
12 barricade at William Street and they were going to come
13 on into the Bogside, like, you know.
14 Q. Just so we can be clear, you describe hearing
15 rifle shots, but prior to hearing people shout "they
16 are coming in", had you heard some gunfire before you
17 heard people shout "they are coming in"?
18 A. No, it was more or less the usual riot thing,
19 you know, blast bombs or whatever, you know. I never
20 had any experience of firing blast bombs, so it was
21 rubber bullets and blast bombs, whatever it was,
22 whatever type of thing they were firing, you know,
23 sorta making an explosion.
24 Q. It was after hearing people shout "they are
25 coming in" --
1 A. Aye.
2 Q. -- that you actually heard rifle shots?
3 A. Aye.
4 Q. Those were the first rifle shots you had
5 heard that day?
6 A. Aye.
7 Q. You then saw, as you say in paragraph 9,
8 Raymond Rogan, who you knew from Mollins factory?
9 A. Aye.
10 Q. And he was coming out of his house?
11 A. Aye.
12 Q. And you asked to shelter in the house?
13 A. Aye, that is right.
14 Q. We know that is 10 Abbey Park. You describe
15 in paragraph 10, you say:
16 "I had not been there long, certainly for
17 less than 10 minutes, when Gerard Donaghy was carried
18 in by at least two people."
19 A. Aye, that is right, aye.
20 Q. You say you think he was brought from the
21 direction of Glenfada Park, but you cannot be sure --
22 A. I am not too sure I was in the house when he
23 came in, the door was open and they brought him in, you
24 know.
25 Q. You do say he was carried into the living
1 room?
2 A. I was in the living room, hiding back in case
3 the bullets would come in the window.
4 Q. I was asking you questions a few moments ago
5 about the rifle shots that you heard, but in the time
6 between going into Mr Rogan's house, into the living
7 room and Gerard Donaghy being carried in, did you hear
8 gunfire?
9 A. Aye, I heard a gun, Jesus, it was going mad,
10 they were going mad outside, the bullets, they were
11 shooting all round the place.
12 Q. And you say, if we could now, please,
13 highlight paragraphs 10 to 14, you tell us in paragraph
14 10 that Gerard Donaghy was brought in and laid on the
15 floor and a wee fellow came in with him and said "the
16 bastards" were standing on him --
17 A. They did not just say it, they were shouting
18 at it, hysterical. I said, "will you keep quiet, lad",
19 you know, settle him down, you know, he was going
20 hysterics, you know, he was not just saying it, you
21 know, he was squealing it out. He was obviously very
22 distressed, you know.
23 Q. He walked into the living room with Gerard
24 Donaghy?
25 A. Aye, he was in the living room. He must have
1 seen him do it you know, or whatever.
2 Q. When you say "wee fellow", do you mean
3 a youngster, a teenager?
4 A. Well, a boy about 12 to 14 maybe, he would
5 hardly have been 14, you know.
6 Q. You still do not know who this "wee fellow"
7 was?
8 A. No, I do not know, I do not even know who
9 Gerald Donaghy's relations are or where he lives, or
10 anything, no contact at all, you know.
11 Q. If we go on, what happened was, as you say in
12 paragraph 12, nobody knew who Gerard Donaghy was?
13 A. No, that is right.
14 Q. But there was a Dr Swords there?
15 A. Aye, as far as -- aye, it was Dr Swords,
16 I found that out when we were going to the
17 Widgery Tribunal at Coleraine, I found out it was
18 Swords you called him, you know.
19 Q. And you describe in paragraph 12 Dr Swords
20 searching Gerard Donaghy for identification?
21 A. Aye, for identification.
22 Q. And to see where the wound was. If we go on
23 to paragraph 13, you say that:
24 "Gerard Donaghy was wearing a short blue
25 denim coat and denim jeans. I specifically remember
1 that the jeans were tight fitting."
2 A. Aye, they were tight fitting on him.
3 Q. And you remember noticing at the time how
4 neat and tidy they looked?
5 A. At that time I wore jeans myself at work and
6 they were like a bag of rags compared to what he was
7 wearing.
8 Q. You also say about the jacket that the jacket
9 was loose?
10 A. Aye, it was lying open the way my coat is
11 lying. It was not zipped up, you know, or anything or
12 buttoned up.
13 Q. If we look at the first line of paragraph 14,
14 you say:
15 "The doctor undid his jacket and examined him
16 for a few minutes."
17 A. I probably -- he may have been looking to see
18 his inside pocket, he was looking to see -- we wanted
19 to know who he was, so we could pass on to his
20 relatives that he had been shot, you know.
21 Q. Your recollection is that when Gerard Donaghy
22 was brought in, his jacket was open?
23 A. Aye, it was.
24 Q. And the doctor examined him. So in examining
25 Gerard Donaghy, presumably the doctor had to pull up
1 his clothing to try and find the wound; do you remember
2 that?
3 A. I do not remember if he actually pulled up
4 his clothing now, you know, I do not. I had asked him,
5 "do you think is there any chance for him" you know,
6 and he says when you are hit low down like that there,
7 there is not much hope, you know.
8 Q. Were you able to see where Gerard Donaghy had
9 been hit, where the injury was?
10 A. I mean, who wants to look and examine a wound
11 when you can do nothing about it or nothing? I mean,
12 you need to be warped or something if you want to look
13 at people's wounds, you know.
14 Q. You do say in paragraph 14 that you are
15 certain that no one undid his trousers?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And they were still done up when he was
18 carried out of the house later on?
19 A. Aye.
20 Q. Are you very sure of that?
21 A. Aye, I am positive.
22 Q. The reason I ask is because yesterday we
23 heard evidence from Mrs Ursula Clifford, who was at the
24 time a theatre nurse at Altnagelvin. She was on the
25 march and she remembers assisting Dr Swords in
1 examining Gerard Donaghy?
2 A. I do not remember her, I do not remember any
3 woman being in the house at all.
4 Q. You do not remember a woman being in the
5 room?
6 A. No, I did not pay no heed, you know. There
7 was a wile lot of people in it, would have been, you
8 know.
9 Q. What you say is that you did not pay
10 particular attention to the pockets of Gerard Donaghy,
11 but you know the doctor went through them looking for
12 identification?
13 A. Aye.
14 Q. In 1972 when you made a statement to the
15 Widgery Tribunal?
16 A. Aye, that was a fucking joke that was.
17 Q. You actually went along to the
18 Widgery Tribunal to give evidence, did you not?
19 A. When I heard that the Lord Chief Justice was
20 coming I thought we will get a fair trial, but by
21 Christ, he was the "Lord Chief Injustice".
22 Q. What you were able to say in 1972 was that as
23 well as the doctor you remembered one other person
24 searching the pockets?
25 A. Aye, well, you know, I could not say, you
1 know, you were looking but like, when there is somebody
2 lying and somebody says to him, you do not want
3 everybody groping and pulling at them, you know. The
4 one person was sufficient to examine to see who it was,
5 you know.
6 Q. The reason I am asking is what you said in
7 1972, your memory was that as well as Dr Swords there
8 was one other person who searched Gerard Donaghy; do
9 you remember who that person was?
10 A. I cannot just say -- I cannot remember it, do
11 you know what I mean.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Stevenson, it is the
13 Chairman: do you actually remember somebody as well as
14 Dr Swords searching Gerald Donaghy's body? You did say
15 that in 1972, do you remember that now?
16 A. I do not -- I remember Leo Young being in the
17 house, you know, I knew Leo. I do not remember
18 anybody, you know, specific. I mean, I would be lying
19 if I says "aye" because I do not remember, you know.
20 LORD SAVILLE: That is perfectly fair, if you
21 have not got any recollection now, you must tell us.
22 A. No, that is fair enough.
23 LORD SAVILLE: The point Mr Rawat was making
24 was that in 1972, when you made your statement, you
25 said the doctor and one other person searched him. If
1 you said that in 1972, is it likely to have been true?
2 A. Oh, it was true enough. What would I want to
3 lie about, sure I have nothing to gain by lying. Look,
4 if I thought that Gerald Donaghy had a bomb in his
5 pocket, I would not be sitting here, I would say, well,
6 good luck to him. I am here because Gerald Donaghy had
7 not got anything in his pocket and that is why I am
8 here. If he had had anything in his pocket, I would
9 not be here, taking your time up, wasting my own time.
10 LORD SAVILLE: Do not understand me,
11 Mr Stevenson, what we wish to do is to get what your
12 recollection is today and to ask you whether you
13 remember things you said in 1972 --
14 A. Jesus, that is a while back for a man of 65
15 to remember.
16 LORD SAVILLE: It is indeed, that is why it
17 is so difficult for us. That is why we want people
18 like you to help us as best you can. What I understand
19 you to say is that you are quite sure what you said in
20 1972 in your statement was true?
21 A. Aye, anything that I says, I do not tell --
22 I do not tell lies, I mean, what is the sense?
23 LORD SAVILLE: I follow that.
24 A. Why would I lie?
25 LORD SAVILLE: As I understand it, your
1 recollection now, 30 years on, is that you cannot
2 really help as to whom this other person was?
3 A. No, I cannot.
4 LORD SAVILLE: That is all I wanted to know.
5 A. That is all right, then.
6 MR RAWAT: Thank you, sir.
7 Mr Stevenson, you have described, obviously,
8 that Dr Swords looked for identification. Is it your
9 recollection that Dr Swords checked all of Gerard
10 Donaghy's pockets?
11 A. Aye, he did, he did do it all. You see that
12 photo of the thing sticking in his pocket, that is, you
13 know what I mean, some monkey left that there. He left
14 Rogan's house with nothing in his pocket and between
15 there and Altnagelvin, whatever, that thing, that
16 suddenly appeared. Maybe it was a mushroom, it might a
17 grew in his pocket, you know.
18 Q. I am sorry to interrupt you, I wonder if you
19 could just pull the microphone a little bit closer. If
20 you could just speak a little slower, if you see the
21 lady to your right, she is taking a note.
22 The reason I asked is because you obviously
23 deal with Gerard Donaghy jeans in your statement --
24 A. Aye, that is right.
25 Q. -- which you described as "tight fitting".
1 But he was wearing a jacket?
2 A. Aye, look at the belt, for Christ's sake look
3 at the belt, will you? You see the belt is loose; how
4 can they be tight fitting when the belt is loosed?
5 There you are, the belt is loosed, look at it. Jesus
6 Christ, like, you are not stupid, you know.
7 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Stevenson --
8 A. The belt is twisted right round, for Christ's
9 sake.
10 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Stevenson, it is the
11 Chairman again. Just listen to what Mr Rawat is asking
12 you, we are trying to do our best. He was asking you
13 in fact not about the jeans, I think, but about the
14 jacket; is that right, Mr Rawat?
15 MR RAWAT: That was what I was wanting to go
16 on to.
17 LORD SAVILLE: You were asking about the
18 jacket --
19 A. You were asking about the jeans.
20 MR RAWAT: It is perhaps the way I phrased
21 the questions. Let us leave the jeans to one side.
22 You tell us that you remember that Gerard Donaghy was
23 wearing a jacket?
24 A. Aye, that is right.
25 Q. We know the jacket had pockets?
1 A. They were making out it was a blouse in the
2 Widgery thing, a blouse, a woman's blouse, aye.
3 Q. Let us stick to your evidence and not the
4 questions you were asked at the Widgery Tribunal.
5 A. Aye, yous are referring back to him, but --
6 Q. But your evidence is it was a jacket?
7 A. Aye, it was.
8 Q. We know the jacket had pockets?
9 A. Aye, denim jacket.
10 Q. Do you remember the doctor checking through
11 the jacket pockets?
12 A. I do, aye, because we wanted to know what he
13 was.
14 Q. You then describe that Gerard Donaghy was
15 then picked up and carried --
16 A. Aye.
17 Q. -- to a car. We know he was taken away in
18 Rogan's car?
19 A. That is right, aye.
20 Q. How much time did you spend with him until he
21 was moved to the car; how much time do you think he was
22 in the living room?
23 A. I could not, I could not honestly say.
24 I could not remember, you know.
25 Q. But in that time you would have stepped away
1 to allow the doctor to examine --
2 A. Aye, I was not -- it was pointless me
3 examining him or looking at him, because I could do
4 nothing for him, you know. It was the doctor, he was
5 doing all the, you know, searching and all that there.
6 I just wanted to know who he was, to inform his
7 relatives, or find out where he lived, you know.
8 Q. How many people were in that room whilst the
9 doctor was there with Gerard Donaghy?
10 A. I could not even tell you how many people is
11 in this room. I do not know how many was in the room,
12 you know.
13 Q. You remember Raymond Rogan being there?
14 A. Aye, Raymond and his wife was there.
15 Q. You have also mentioned Leo --
16 A. Leo Young came, aye.
17 Q. Were there a few other people as well?
18 A. There were a brave few. They were all in
19 sheltering out of the way of the gunfire.
20 Q. Did you yourself see anything at all in
21 Gerard Donaghy's pockets?
22 A. No, I did not see nothing and there was --
23 Q. Can I show you P1089, please. This is
24 a photograph which is not taken on Bloody Sunday, but
25 it shows a soldier holding a nail bomb. It is said
1 that on Gerard Donaghy four nail bombs were found and
2 they were all made up with four-inch nails?
3 A. Well, have a look at that --
4 Q. I am sorry to interrupt --
5 A. Have a look at that in his pocket and the one
6 the soldier is holding -- completely different things
7 altogether.
8 Q. Let me finish my questions: the nail bombs
9 said to have been found on Gerard Donaghy are said to
10 have been made up with four-inch nails. Is there any
11 possibility that you might have missed --
12 A. Aye, Jesus Christ.
13 Q. -- something like that on Gerard Donaghy?
14 A. Catch yourself on, will you, for Christ's
15 sake, look at that, sure look at the photo.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Stevenson, what we want you
17 to do is to try and help us. There is no point in
18 being --
19 A. Aye, I am trying to help yous, but you are
20 asking ridiculous questions. You are asking ridiculous
21 questions.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Do not worry about the
23 questions. Do not be rude to Mr Rawat. Just listen to
24 the question and answer it, because that is the only
25 way you are going to help us.
1 A. If you were to ask sensible questions -- now
2 that there, that there sticking in anybody's pocket,
3 how under Jesus could you not see that?
4 LORD SAVILLE: But there is no need to be
5 rude about it. What you say is "I did not see anything
6 like that in his pocket"?
7 A. You are asking me not to be rude about it;
8 the soldiers were not too friendly with the people they
9 were shooting, they were being very rude, more than
10 rude.
11 LORD SAVILLE: That has nothing to do with
12 it, Mr Stevenson. I must repeat, if you have come here
13 to help the Inquiry to find the truth --
14 A. I have come here to say that Gerard Donaghy
15 was completely innocent.
16 LORD SAVILLE: As I understand it you have
17 come here to help us to try and find the truth. The
18 best way you can do that is to listen to the question
19 and answer it, however silly you may think the question
20 is; would you do that, please?
21 A. Aye, I will try anyway.
22 MR RAWAT: I can move on anyway. I want to
23 show you now paragraphs 17 and 18 of your statement at
24 AS33.3. This is after Gerard Donaghy had been taken
25 out of the house and you say that:
1 "... things seemed to settle down" and you
2 decided to go home to your family?
3 A. Aye.
4 Q. At that time, it has been edited out, but you
5 were living in Lecky Road?
6 A. I was living at 254 Lecky Road or Bluebell
7 Terrace because my own house, I was getting a back
8 return built on my own house, at Element Street.
9 Q. What you did was to turn out of Mr Rogan's
10 house?
11 A. Aye.
12 Q. And then walk across the Old Bog Road to
13 Lisfannon Park?
14 A. Aye.
15 Q. You say in paragraph 18:
16 "... and I crossed the road. Ahead of me to
17 my left, on the car park along the north side of
18 Lisfannon Park, I could see a number of people who
19 I believed to be wounded or dead. They were lying on
20 the ground, with groups of people around them.
21 I remember being surprised and terrified at how many
22 people were lying there."
23 I want to try and pinpoint what you mean by
24 the car park along the north side of Lisfannon Park.
25 If I put up your map, would you be able to show us
1 where it is on the map?
2 A. Aye, it is right behind Raymond Rogan's
3 house.
4 Q. If I could have control. We know number 10
5 is just here, Raymond Rogan's house?
6 A. Aye.
7 Q. Fahan Street West, what is known as the Old
8 Bog Road. If we remove the arrows and give
9 Mr Stevenson control, would you be able, Mr Stevenson,
10 to mark where this car park is where you saw these
11 people?
12 A. Aye, there. (Indicating). Right round this,
13 you know, that is Rogan's house. I was to come round
14 this way here to come over Fahan Street, you know.
15 That is not, that is not Fahan Street there, that is --
16 I suppose yous call it Fahan Street, but we call it the
17 New Road.
18 Q. The Old Bog Road, is it not? If we could
19 remove the green arrow and then the two smaller arrows
20 and if I could have control and have a colour other
21 than red, please. The red arrow would mark the rough
22 direction that you were going in? (Marked with red
23 arrow - AS33.13).
24 A. Aye, that is right and all.
25 Q. And the blue arrow would mark the area or the
1 car park, the rough position of the car park where you
2 saw these people? (Marked with blue arrow - AS33.13).
3 A. Aye, that is right, aye, round there.
4 Q. You say that is just behind Raymond Rogan's
5 house?
6 A. That is Rogan's house that is there all
7 right.
8 Q. Could we save that, please, as AS33.13.
9 If we could go back to paragraph 18 of
10 Mr Stevenson's statement. You say you could see
11 a number of people "who I believed to be wounded or
12 dead"?
13 A. Aye.
14 Q. Can you tell us how many people there were?
15 A. Aye, for God's sake. I know a lot of
16 excitement was going on, you were not worried about
17 people or anybody else, you know, just groups of people
18 and I just had the one notion: get out of it as quickly
19 as possible.
20 Q. But your recollection is there were people on
21 the ground?
22 A. Aye, there were people.
23 Q. Did you see any ambulances around?
24 A. No, I do not recollect any ambulances now,
25 but then they could a came after, after I was away, you
1 know.
2 Q. As you were there, as you were walking past,
3 did you see, for example, anybody from the Knights of
4 Malta?
5 A. Well, there were Knights of Malta ones all
6 round the place, you know, sorta, I could not just say
7 exactly what part, you know, but there were Knights of
8 Malta ones about there, you know, during the day, like.
9 Q. Were any of these people who you believe were
10 wounded or dead, did you see any of them being carried
11 away or --
12 A. I never stayed to see anything, I wanted to
13 get home as quick as possible.
14 Q. Mr Stevenson, those are all my questions,
15 thank you.
16 A. Right, thank you.
17 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
18 MR CLARKE: Mr Clarke. Mr Stevenson, to your
19 left. My name is Clarke, I appear on behalf of
20 a number of the soldiers.
21 There is one matter I want to ask you about,
22 sir: that is your decision to give evidence to the
23 Widgery Inquiry?
24 A. Aye, to the Widgery Inquiry, aye.
25 Q. You told us just a few moments ago that you
1 went along because you heard he was the
2 Lord Chief Justice?
3 A. Aye, that is right, aye.
4 Q. You changed your mind after you had given
5 evidence?
6 A. Aye, I did. I thought: this is the Lord
7 Chief Justice, it will an honest, fair ... but I learnt
8 a lot since.
9 Q. I wanted to ask you just about that,
10 Mr Stevenson, if you could help us. Could you just
11 have a look at what you said when you made a statement
12 to this Inquiry?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Could you have a look at AS33.3, paragraph
15 21:
16 "I also gave evidence at the
17 Widgery Tribunal. I was very reluctant to do so as
18 I thought it was going to be a whitewash."
19 A. Aye, that is right.
20 Q. Which is it? You tell us --
21 A. Well, I thought it was going to be
22 a whitewash and then the church, the church that I go
23 to, they were advising people to go to it, you know,
24 they really believed it was going to be a, an inquiry,
25 you know. So that is why I went, because I thought
1 "well, if they say it is okay, well, it will be all
2 right, I will go", you know.
3 Q. Mr Stevenson, thank you, that is what
4 I wanted to finally ask you: you were persuaded by the
5 church that you should get in touch with Widgery?
6 A. No, I was not talking to anyone directly, any
7 priest directly. I am not going to say the church was
8 in any way -- they were advising people, "there is a
9 Tribunal on. You should go and see about it" you know,
10 it was not really any particular priest or anything, it
11 was just they thought that we would get, you know, some
12 good out of it, you know.
13 Q. You had your mind changed, your attitude
14 changed by, what, your local priest or the church
15 generally; do you remember which it was?
16 A. The church generally.
17 Q. But how, then, from the pulpit or on
18 television, or what?
19 A. It could have been from the pulpit, could
20 have been anything, you know.
21 Q. Can you remember, sir? Given --
22 A. Do you know, do you think it was a nice thing
23 that the priest was advising the people to go and get
24 the thing, you know, give evidence and try and get the
25 thing sorted out and in the interest of justice, you
1 know.
2 Q. There was no individual priest that you
3 remember?
4 A. No, there never -- nobody was coerced into
5 going to it, you know.
6 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN
7 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Mr Stevenson, my name is
8 Allan Green. I appear for a number of the soldiers.
9 I have a couple of questions to ask you, if I may.
10 Could we have on the screen, please, AS33.2 and
11 highlight paragraph 14. You have been asked about this
12 by Mr Rawat, Mr Stevenson, who questioned you first.
13 I want to return to it very briefly, if I may. It is
14 the third sentence there:
15 "I am certain that no one undid his trousers
16 and that they were still done up when he was carried
17 out of the house later on."
18 A. Aye.
19 Q. Mr Rawat has told you -- quite rightly, of
20 course -- that we heard from a lady called Ursula
21 Clifford yesterday?
22 A. Aye.
23 Q. She says that his trousers were definitely
24 undone so that the doctor could examine him and find
25 the wound in his abdomen?
1 A. Aye.
2 Q. So could you be wrong when you say that no
3 one undid his trousers?
4 A. Well, no one undid his trousers while I was
5 there, while I was standing in the room. I mean, you
6 were looking, everything was going on, you are not
7 going to stand looking at a corpse sorta as if you were
8 praying over it or anything like that there. It could
9 have been done after I turned away.
10 Q. Mr Stevenson, you were there throughout in
11 the room, were you not?
12 A. Aye, that is right, aye.
13 Q. You were there when he was brought in?
14 A. I was, aye and I was there when there were no
15 bombs in his pocket.
16 Q. And you were there when he was taken out
17 again?
18 A. Aye, there were no bombs in his pocket, write
19 that down.
20 Q. At any rate, I think you say that you could
21 be wrong and that his trousers could have been undone
22 while you were not looking?
23 A. Aye.
24 Q. Could you be wrong about some other matter?
25 A. I am right about the bombs, no bombs in his
1 pocket. I am right about no bombs in his pocket, that
2 is it. If yous were anxious to get that thing sorted
3 out, get all the guns that the soldiers was using, you
4 would get them all gathered up and examine the bullets.
5 Yous could tell who shot who if you wanted to, but yous
6 do not want to.
7 Q. Mr Stevenson, can we do a deal?
8 A. No, no, no deals, there are too many deals
9 going on in Northern Ireland.
10 Q. -- I will listen to your answers, is that
11 fair? Let me put the question.
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Could you be wrong when you say he was
14 searched for identification?
15 A. No, no, definitely not, because I personally
16 wanted to know who he was for my own satisfaction so
17 that at least the people would a knew that he was, dead
18 and, you know, like people -- you would be anxious to
19 know if any of your friends was killed or anything.
20 Q. But the most important thing was to get him
21 treated, was it not, for his wound; that was the most
22 important thing of all?
23 A. Aye.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR RAWAT: Sir, I have no further questions.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Stevenson, it is the
2 Chairman again over to your right: thank you very much
3 for coming here to assist the Inquiry, thank you.
4 A. Thank you, and I would like to thank yous for
5 at least it sounds like an Inquiry this one, the last
6 one, it was like a rabble.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 MR RAWAT: Our next witness will be
9 Mrs Mahon.
10 MRS EIBHLIN MAHON, sworn
11 Questioned by MR CLARKE
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Mahon, the Chairman. You
13 may well have heard me say this to the previous
14 witness. I say it to all the witnesses: I am the
15 Chairman of the Tribunal. Questions will come in the
16 main from the barristers, the people sitting in front
17 of me. Could I ask you to remember to keep close to
18 that microphone. You can pull it towards you a little
19 bit if you like so we can all hear what you have to
20 say.
21 MR CLARKE: Mrs Mahon, do you have with you
22 your statement to this Tribunal which you signed on
23 30th August 1999?
24 A. I have.
25 Q. I believe there are a few minor corrections
1 you would like to make to it. Could we have a look at
2 paragraph 6, which is presently on the screen. You are
3 there recorded as saying in the third line:
4 "We did not have a gas mask on that day."
5 I believe that should read:
6 "I did not have a gas mask on that day." Is
7 that right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. In the next sentence, which presently reads:
10 "When we did duty during the summer for the
11 riot we had gas masks then."
12 That should read:
13 "The men had gas masks then."
14 A. That is correct, yes.
15 Q. If we could lastly go to paragraph 36 which
16 is at AM17.5, you are dealing there with some material
17 we received from the Sunday Times. In the second line
18 you are recorded as saying:
19 "I remember that the soldier kneeling was
20 jumpy, but I would not say scared stiff."
21 You would prefer "jumpy" to read "agitated";
22 is that correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Apart from those three qualifications, are
25 the contents of this statement true to the best of your
1 knowledge and belief?
2 A. They are.
3 Q. Could we go back to AM17.1, paragraph 1. You
4 describe how both you and your father were in the
5 Knights of Malta at the time of Bloody Sunday and you
6 record how a lot of people at that time did not go to
7 Altnagelvin Hospital but went to a first aid centre set
8 up at the candy shop in the Lone Moor Road on the
9 corner with New Road.
10 Can I try and make sure we understand where
11 that is. Could we please, have on the screen map Q2:
12 we can see, if I point it out, that the Lone Moor Road
13 has its junction with Westland Street there.
14 (Indicating). The Lone Moor Road is a very long road,
15 going up to Creggan Street in the north and coming down
16 in the south, down as far as Elmwood Street. Can you
17 tell me whereabouts Candy Corner is on this; is it on
18 the road that is on the screen?
19 A. I do not really understand your map.
20 Q. When you refer to the New Road, where is it
21 that you are talking of?
22 A. The top of Westland Street.
23 Q. Here is Westland Street leading up from the
24 Lecky Road?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Do you follow?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Westland Street intersects with Lone Moor
4 Road where the green and blue arrows are shown there.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you have your bearings now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Let us take all these arrows off. If we give
9 you control of the screen, could you point out which is
10 Candy Corner?
11 A. The corner here, okay. (Indicating).
12 Q. Is that where the first aid centre was?
13 A. I want to point out, the first aid centre,
14 I do not recall it being opened on Bloody Sunday, the
15 first aid centre was during the riots, Candy Corner.
16 Q. Is that where it was during the riots?
17 A. Yes, the bottom of the New Road and the top
18 of Westland Street.
19 Q. Perhaps we could preserve that image as
20 AM17.20. You say that you do not recall that it was
21 open on Bloody Sunday. Do you recall what first aid
22 centres of the Knights of Malta were open on
23 Bloody Sunday?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Could we have on the screen AC1.31. Can
1 I tell you what this is. This is a portion of the
2 statement of Robert Cadman, who was a Knight of Malta
3 on Bloody Sunday to this Inquiry. In paragraph 33 of
4 the statement he describes on Bloody Sunday going at a
5 certain stage back to the Bogside in a Knight of Malta
6 ambulance. He then says in the third line:
7 "The ambulance stopped in Rossville Street to
8 pick up casualties from the first aid posts in the
9 area. I remember that, at the time, there were first
10 aid posts at Candy Corner, at the Bogside Inn, at
11 Madden's stores (just below the swimming baths) and in
12 the Creggan."
13 That, at least on one reading, suggests that
14 on Bloody Sunday itself there may have been first aid
15 posts at Candy Corner, at the Bogside Inn, at Madden's
16 stores and in the Creggan; do you have any recollection
17 of there being, at the time of Bloody Sunday, a first
18 aid post at the Bogside Inn of the Knights of Malta?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Or a post at Madden's stores?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Or in the Creggan?
23 A. No.
24 Q. May we come back, please, to AM17.1,
25 paragraph 1 of your statement. You tell us how, when
1 the Troubles started people would come to a first aid
2 centre such as the Candy Shop and if it was serious you
3 would get a doctor. What would happen then if they
4 needed further treatment that could not be provided at
5 the first aid post?
6 A. The doctor would deal with them and it would
7 be his decision then.
8 Q. If they had to be taken to hospital where
9 would they go?
10 A. That was the doctor's decision, Altnagelvin
11 Hospital.
12 Q. Were people who were hurt in riots who needed
13 hospital treatment taken to other hospitals to avoid
14 arrest or difficulty?
15 A. Well, there was some.
16 Q. What hospitals would those be?
17 A. I think, at the time, it was Letterkenny
18 Hospital.
19 Q. Any other hospital?
20 A. Not to my knowledge.
21 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 6 to 8 at
22 the bottom of the page. You tell us of your
23 recollection of there being CS gas around
24 William Street as you walked down it and you describe
25 how, when you got to the junction with
1 Rossville Street, you could feel the gas stinging your
2 eyes and throat and you have told us that, as
3 corrected, you yourself did not have a gas mask on that
4 day.
5 We have seen pictures of some Knights of
6 Malta who did have gas masks. Was there any reason why
7 some did and some did not?
8 A. None in particular.
9 Q. You then describe how the crowd was pushing
10 away to get away from the gas and people were moving
11 west and you moved back because of the gas and you
12 heard a noise that may have been a shot.
13 You say you do not know exactly where you
14 were when you heard that noise, but have you any rough
15 idea of approximately the position where you were when
16 you heard that noise?
17 A. It would have been around William Street and
18 the edge of Rossville Street, around that area.
19 Q. You describe hearing a noise. Is your
20 recollection now that you only heard one noise, what
21 may have been one shot, or may it have been more than
22 one?
23 A. I cannot say for definite.
24 Q. May we come, then, over the page, down to the
25 end of paragraph 10. You describe how you were making
1 your way back west up William Street, heard somebody
2 behind you shout "a fellow's been shot" and followed
3 the man who shouted and got to the man who was shot,
4 who you found out later was John Johnston, and there
5 were two first-aiders already with him, Leo Day and
6 your father, Sergeant John Lafferty.
7 When you say getting to the man who was shot,
8 was he out in the open at this stage?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Had you seen him fall?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You simply got to him when he was on the
13 ground; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall whereabouts he was?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You arrived on the scene to find two
18 first-aiders already there. Do you have any idea how
19 long they had been with him?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall how long after you had heard
22 what may have been a shot you reached the man who was
23 shot and who was being attended to?
24 A. Sorry?
25 Q. Do you recall how long after you heard what
1 may be a shot it was before you reached the man who had
2 been shot, the interval of time between the two?
3 A. No, I had no value of time.
4 Q. Could we have a look, please, at AM17.9.
5 This is, I believe, but I would invite you to confirm,
6 a statement that you made to the Knights of Malta
7 organisation in 1972; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The way in which you described it there was
10 this: you had been talking in the first paragraph about
11 having to move back because of the gas. Is this your
12 handwriting?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What you wrote, was this:
15 "After retreating, I was called to the scene
16 of two men who were shot with lead bullets, but on
17 arriving there I found that Mr Day and Mr Lafferty were
18 already there. After lending a hand with the patients
19 I left."
20 It looks, does it not, as if your
21 recollection at the time was of coming upon two people
22 who had been shot; is it possible that with the passage
23 of 30 years the fact that there were two of them has
24 simply passed from your memory?
25 A. It could have, but this was written at the
1 time.
2 Q. It is likely to be the most reliable record,
3 is it not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You then went on to say this:
6 "When I was walking across open ground
7 I heard shots which I thought was rubber bullets, but
8 I was not long in finding out the truth. I dived to
9 the ground for cover while the shots rang out. Before
10 long I was in a house taking cover and while there a
11 patient was brought to my side with a bullet in his
12 shoulder."
13 I think this is obviously a reference to what
14 we believe to be Joe Friel.
15 But looking back at that statement made at
16 the time, does that bring back any recollection of
17 walking across open ground and hearing shots and diving
18 to the ground for cover?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you have any idea where that was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraphs 10 to
23 14 on AM17.2. You describe in paragraph 10 how you
24 made your way south, walking down to the Bog Road, but
25 have no idea how you got there or why you went there
1 but you then, see paragraph 11, remember going into a
2 house which you think was at Lisfannon Park and whilst
3 you were there a man was brought in who you know now
4 was Joe Friel.
5 How do you now know that was him who was
6 brought in?
7 A. I did not know until 25 years after it.
8 Q. How did you learn that it was him?
9 A. He thanked me for saving his life.
10 Q. We know from his evidence and other evidence
11 that he was taken into a house in Lisfannon Park,
12 number 23, belonging to the Murrays. You describe him
13 as being shot in the shoulder. Can I have on the
14 screen photograph P752. This is a picture of Joe Friel
15 taken when he was in hospital. Do you remember that
16 face?
17 A. Not really.
18 Q. The reason that I am showing it to you is
19 that, as can partly be seen by this photograph and as
20 we know from the medical report, he was in fact shot or
21 Joe Friel was in fact shot by a bullet that passed
22 across his breast bone from left to right which is why
23 he has a heavy bandage right across the middle of his
24 chest.
25 But your recollection is of a wound in the
1 shoulder, is it?
2 A. Yes, there could have been blood about.
3 I was very inexperienced at that time for gunshot
4 wounds.
5 Q. You saw blood in the shoulder region; is that
6 what it comes to?
7 A. It was blood across the front of him, anyway.
8 Q. May we then go back to AM17.2, paragraphs 14
9 to 16. You describe in paragraph 14 how there was not
10 an ambulance there and he would have been put in a car
11 and taken away. You describe in paragraph 15 how you
12 remember people running and shouting "open up, open up,
13 they are using live rounds" and banging on doors of the
14 houses.
15 Is this along Lisfannon Park that you are
16 talking about, or are you talking about somewhere else?
17 A. Along Lisfannon Park.
18 Q. You then describe how, possibly because
19 somebody shouted that men had been shot in Abbey Park,
20 or possibly simply because you looked in that direction
21 you saw two bodies lying in the points you have marked
22 at A and B on the map attached to your statement in
23 Abbey Park and you ran across to Abbey Park still
24 wearing your white coat and carrying your medical bag.
25 Can we then come, please, to paragraphs 17
1 and 18 on the next page. You then describe how
2 shooting was going on as you ran past the front of the
3 Abbey Park houses and bullets were bouncing around
4 you. You were shouting "do not shoot, first aid", but
5 the shooting was continuous, shot after shot, and you
6 heard the ping of bullets. At around the point you
7 have marked C on your map, you felt a whoosh as one
8 bullet hit the side of your trousers. You grabbed your
9 leg and dived to the ground and when you got home later
10 that day, you found a singe mark in the trousers that
11 you borrowed from your sister that morning.
12 Before we get to the contents of the
13 paragraph, I wonder if you could help me identify on
14 the virtual reality image -- could we have virtual
15 reality spot 42 -- the position of the two bodies as
16 best you recall which you were running towards. Could
17 we have virtual reality hotspot 42.
18 So we can orientate ourselves: this is the
19 entry into the alleyway between Abbey Park on the right
20 as we look at the photograph and Glenfada Park South at
21 the left. It would be up this alleyway that you ran,
22 would it not?
23 A. I do not recognise that -- is there some
24 other form of picture?
25 Q. I am so sorry?
1 A. Is there some other form of picture?
2 Q. Do you not recognise it at all? This is
3 looking out on to the Old Bog Road and towards
4 Lisfannon Park? Let us have a look at the whole
5 picture, if we swing round 180 degrees, here is the
6 beginning of Abbey Park on the left.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Is that becoming clearer: that is number 6,
9 that is number 7, that is number 8 and there is the gap
10 between Glenfada Park North and South.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And you move up. Is that clearer?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This is looking in the direction in which you
15 were going.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you be able to plot on this image or
18 I have an image that will take you further up towards
19 William Street, where you saw the two bodies that you
20 were running towards?
21 A. The two -- one of the bodies was directly
22 opposite Mr Carr's house.
23 Q. We might be therefore better off with --
24 could we have hotspot 39. This has been taken a little
25 further up. That is Mr Carr's house.
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Which is number 8. That is looking back
3 towards where you had come from. Does the spot where
4 the first body was appear on the image as we look at it
5 now, or should we be looking somewhere else?
6 A. On the steps.
7 Q. On those steps?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So the first body that you saw -- how was it
10 lying on the steps, just outside the Carr's house?
11 A. Mr McKinney was lying on his back.
12 Q. Which way was his head facing?
13 A. Mr Carr's house.
14 Q. That is to say towards the left of the
15 photograph, towards the west?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And his feet towards the
18 Glenfada Park North/Glenfada Park South alleyway; is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I do not think we need mark that. That was
22 where the first body was. Where was the second?
23 A. Further on over. I did not really have much
24 dealings with the second body.
25 Q. Can you recall where approximately it was?
1 A. I could not really be certain now.
2 Q. But it was further to the west than Gerard
3 McKinney; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Mahon, the Chairman here,
6 over to your right: Mr Clarke asked you if it was
7 further to the west. That would be further to the
8 left?
9 A. Yes.
10 LORD SAVILLE: Of this photograph as we look
11 at it; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR CLARKE: Can you recall now where you were
14 when you felt a whoosh as a bullet hit the side of your
15 trousers?
16 A. Go back over. It was about halfway, halfway
17 across Abbey -- coming running this way. (Indicating).
18 Q. When you say "halfway across", do you mean
19 halfway across the Old Bog Road and the Carr's house or
20 do you mean halfway between Abbey Park and
21 Glenfada Park?
22 A. Halfway between the Old Bog Road and
23 Mr McKinney's body.
24 Q. We can see that the middle of the alley is
25 cobbles and steps. Can you say approximately where it
1 was in relation to the steps that we see in this
2 photograph?
3 A. I cannot.
4 Q. But it was halfway between the Old Bog Road
5 and Mr McKinney's body, is that the best we can
6 probably put it at?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The sounds that you heard and in particular
9 the whoosh of a bullet that hit the side of your
10 trousers, did that appear to be gunfire, rifle fire or
11 could some of the sound be rubber bullet fire?
12 A. No, gunfire.
13 Q. Did you see any soldiers at this stage?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Had you any idea where the fire was coming
16 from?
17 A. No, just in front of me.
18 Q. But you did not notice a soldier, either when
19 you were running up the alleyway or when you dived
20 down?
21 A. No.
22 Q. May we come back, please, to paragraphs 18 to
23 22 at AM17.3. You describe there in paragraph 18
24 diving to the ground. The way in which you have
25 expressed it is that you dived down beside the body
1 which was nearest to you, which you now believe was the
2 body of Gerard McKinney.
3 You told me a moment ago that the place where
4 you were when you felt the whoosh of the shot on your
5 trousers was about halfway between the Old Bog Road and
6 Gerard McKinney. Did you dive down at the spot where
7 you felt the whoosh in your trousers, or did you
8 continue to run forward and then dive down near where
9 Gerard McKinney was?
10 A. No, I dived down nearest where Gerard
11 McKinney was.
12 Q. So you moved a bit further forward from where
13 you felt the whoosh?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. You describe in paragraph 20 looking at
16 Gerard McKinney and how there was a bit of a lull in
17 the shooting and people came out and over to you, one
18 of whom was an elderly man who came over from the
19 direction of Abbey Park and told you to say the act of
20 contrition. Do you know who that man was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. As you had run from the Old Bog Road up
23 towards where Gerard McKinney was, were you at that
24 stage conscious of there being other people between
25 Abbey Park and Glenfada Park South?
1 A. Not until I reached Gerard McKinney.
2 Q. Do you mean that by the time you reached
3 Gerard McKinney you became aware that you had passed
4 people as you ran up Abbey Park or -- is that what you
5 mean?
6 A. Sorry, are you saying that there was people
7 on Abbey Park when I was running?
8 Q. I am asking you whether there were?
9 A. No.
10 Q. As you ran up Abbey Park towards Gerard
11 McKinney, were you conscious of there being any people
12 to the west, that is to the left-hand side as you were
13 running, of Glenfada Park North?
14 A. Only in the homes.
15 Q. Only, sorry?
16 A. Only at the window of houses.
17 Q. At the windows of houses, but not otherwise?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You describe how you came across Gerard
20 McKinney first. When you got to him, when you dived
21 down to him was there anybody around him at that stage?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You describe, if we may look at paragraph 23,
24 being aware that there was another man lying further
25 north and you have described him as being to the left
1 of Gerard McKinney who you think was lying on his
2 stomach. At the time when you got to Gerard McKinney
3 was anybody around or close to that man?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Can you give any description of that man?
6 A. I think he was lying on his stomach.
7 Q. Do you recall what he was wearing?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What age he was?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Could we go back to AM17.10. This is part of
12 your statement to the Knights of Malta at the time.
13 You referred in the first full paragraph that is on the
14 page to what you have been describing to us in these
15 terms:
16 "I dived to the ground for cover and tried to
17 attend my patient. Then within a few seconds I arose
18 again when a male nurse had come to the scene."
19 Do you think that was a reference to Robert
20 Cadman?
21 A. I could not be sure, but it probably was the
22 first-aider.
23 Q. "I ran to the other three men and began
24 shouting 'first aid' and the soldiers began shooting at
25 me again."
1 I think that is probably a reference to what
2 happened in Glenfada Park North; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. There does not seem to be any reference in
5 this statement to seeing the second person by Gerard
6 McKinney's side; is there any reason for that?
7 A. I did not go over near the second person. At
8 this stage people had came out.
9 Q. Could we please have on the screen AC1.1.
10 This is the statement that Robert Cadman gave at the
11 time to the Northern Ireland civil rights
12 organisation. I would like to show you a portion of
13 it. He describes running into a house in
14 Columbcille Court where Dr McClean, Captain Day,
15 Lieutenant McDaid and Sergeant Lafferty and a few other
16 Knights of Malta were present. That I think is a
17 reference to the house where John Johnston and Damien
18 Donaghy were taken.
19 But in the next paragraph, he says this:
20 "I saw that my services were not needed so
21 I made my way to the front of the house. I had just
22 lit a cigarette when two women shouted to me from a
23 house that there were two men lying in front of their
24 house. This was in front of the houses in
25 Glenfada Park. Myself and another member of the Order
1 ran to the two men. At the same time but from the
2 opposite direction woman volunteer Eibhlin Lafferty was
3 running towards the two men. I saw a rifle protruding
4 from a passageway between the houses in Glenfada Park.
5 I shouted at Eibhlin 'Do not move, stay where you
6 are'.
7 "I heard a ping and saw Eibhlin's hand go to
8 her leg. That was the last I saw of her until later in
9 the evening, as I went straight to the two men."
10 So what he appears to be describing is what
11 happened to you but looking from precisely the opposite
12 direction, because he was coming in one way and you
13 were coming the other.
14 What he refers to is seeing a rifle
15 protruding from the passageway between the houses in
16 Glenfada Park and shouting at you "do not move, stay
17 where you are"; do you have any recollection of that,
18 of him coming towards you and shouting "do not move,
19 stay where you are"?
20 A. No.
21 Q. May we then come, please, to AM17.4,
22 paragraphs 24 to 27. You describe in paragraph 24 how,
23 when you were at the spot where Gerard McKinney was,
24 you could see other bodies to your right lying in
25 Glenfada Park North who you think were the three bodies
1 lying in the area marked on the photograph attached,
2 the bodies lying around the footpath near the wooden
3 fence.
4 Can we look, please, now, at P687, which is
5 our best copy of the photograph attached. Can we
6 lighten that up, please. This photograph was taken by
7 Trevor McBride on Bloody Sunday. It is taken from the
8 northwest corner. You would have been looking through
9 the southwest corner; he is taking this from the same
10 side, but the north end, looking down to three bodies
11 which he has photographed in this shot. Allowing for
12 the fact that you would have been looking from a
13 different angle, do you think that those are the very
14 bodies whom you saw as you looked through the alleyway
15 on Bloody Sunday?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us who they are?
18 A. Now I can: Mr Joseph Mahon, Mr Jim Wray and
19 Mr Willie McKinney.
20 Q. Which one is which?
21 A. Um, Mr Joseph Mahon is against the fence on
22 the footpath.
23 Q. He is that one, is he? (Marked with green
24 arrow).
25 A. Yeah. Jim Wray is in the pavement in front
1 of him.
2 Q. And the other one is William McKinney?
3 A. And the other gentleman is William McKinney.
4 Q. Which of those three did you know on
5 Bloody Sunday, if any?
6 A. I did not know any of them at the time until
7 after I heard the names.
8 Q. May we come back to paragraphs 24 to 27 on
9 AM17.4. You describe in paragraph 24 in the fourth
10 line how, as you came out of the alleyway leading into
11 Glenfada Park towards the bodies, you saw a soldier
12 about halfway across Glenfada Park North, down on one
13 knee with three or four other soldiers standing at the
14 northeast entrance to Glenfada Park North, appearing to
15 be agitated and hyped up.
16 In paragraph 25 you describe the soldier who
17 was kneeling at point D as without a helmet, with his
18 rifle at his shoulder in the firing position, pointing
19 towards the south end of Glenfada Park North.
20 May we look at the map attached to your
21 statement at AM33.14 --
22 MR TOOHEY: Can I ask Mrs Mahon something:
23 you spoke of -- and you are being asked by Mr Clarke
24 about the soldier whom you marked at point D; is he the
25 first soldier you saw in that area of Abbey
1 Park/Glenfada Park North on that occasion?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 MR CLARKE: May we have AM17.19. Can we
4 highlight Glenfada Park North. You have identified to
5 us at point D, practically in the centre of
6 Glenfada Park North, where the soldier who was kneeling
7 with a rifle at his shoulder was. You describe him as
8 pointing his gun towards the south end of
9 Glenfada Park North.
10 Could you see anything specific that he was
11 apparently pointing at?
12 A. He was pointing at the bodies.
13 Q. At the bodies?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you able to give any description of him,
16 how tall or short he appeared to be?
17 A. No, at this stage he was on his knees.
18 Q. You say he was not wearing a helmet; did you
19 notice the colour of his hair?
20 A. I cannot recall.
21 Q. You describe the soldiers who were standing
22 at the northeast entrance as being agitated and hyped
23 up and how the soldiers were calling to each other.
24 Could you catch what they were saying?
25 A. No.
1 Q. When you say that there were soldiers at the
2 northeast corner, for the avoidance of doubt, is that
3 the corner that you mean? (Marked with yellow arrow).
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you at this stage, apart from the three
6 bodies whom you could see lying on the ground, see any
7 other civilians in Glenfada car park?
8 A. No.
9 Q. We know at some stage there were quite a few
10 civilians at the gable end on the east side; did you
11 see any there when you looked into Glenfada Park?
12 A. No, I did not take my eyes off the soldier.
13 Q. As you came in towards Glenfada Park and saw
14 the soldier kneeling down in the position that you have
15 described, do you recall how far you got into the park;
16 did you get out of the alleyway between Glenfada Park
17 North and South or did you only stay in the alleyway?
18 A. No, I stepped out into Glenfada Park North.
19 Q. We know that at the alleyway, as you come
20 through the alleyway there is the pavement that
21 surrounds the houses and then there is the tarmac of
22 the car park the other side of the pavement. Do you
23 recall whether you stepped off the pavement at this
24 stage?
25 A. I dare say I did.
1 Q. May we come, please, back to paragraphs 25 to
2 27: you say in paragraph 25, in the third line:
3 "As I went through the alleyway into the car
4 park he turned his gun straight towards me as if taking
5 aim and there was a shot."
6 Do I take it from the way in which that
7 sentence is expressed that you cannot say whether or
8 not the soldier whom you saw fired, the soldier on his
9 knee?
10 A. He did.
11 Q. How did you know that it was him?
12 A. Because he was the only one that was looking
13 at me.
14 Q. Did you see either a flash from his gun or
15 the recoil of the rifle?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you see where the shot went?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You describe how at that second somebody
20 pulled you back by the back of your neck and said "are
21 you looking to get killed"; did you ever discover who
22 that was?
23 A. I did not.
24 Q. You say that you told him not to be silly and
25 that they would not shoot a first-aider and you went
1 out again and walked towards the bodies. Did you think
2 that the man who had shot had in fact been shooting at
3 you?
4 A. Well, there was nobody else there.
5 Q. I wonder why, in those circumstances, if the
6 man had just been shooting at you, you told the person
7 who pulled you back not to be so silly because they
8 would not shoot at a first-aider?
9 A. Because I wanted to go out to the bodies
10 again.
11 Q. You then describe coming right through the
12 alleyway into Glenfada Park North with your hands held
13 right out at your sides at shoulder level, shouting "do
14 not shoot, do not shoot, first aid" and you think you
15 shouted "do you not know that we are first-aiders".
16 You then describe how you have always had the
17 firm impression that there was another soldier at the
18 northwest entrance to Glenfada Park North. Is that
19 because you have an image in your mind of a soldier
20 being there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall in your mind what he was doing,
23 whether it was kneeling, standing, stationary, moving?
24 A. I cannot say for sure.
25 Q. But a soldier shouted "your white coats are a
1 target, but your red heart is a better one"; is that
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The white coats that you wore actually have a
5 heart emblazoned on the pocket, do they?
6 A. On the left-hand pocket of the breast.
7 Q. You describe how on hearing this you threw
8 your first aid bag to the ground in anger and kept your
9 arms out, walking towards the bodies, looking at the
10 soldiers?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you describe the soldiers as backing out
13 of the courtyard. Is that something that they began to
14 do as you walked towards them, or had they already
15 started to do that?
16 A. They were just walking -- the soldiers in the
17 corner were walking out backwards, they were in
18 a group.
19 Q. Is that what they had been doing when you
20 first saw them?
21 A. No.
22 Q. That is what they were doing now?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And they had their guns up and the soldier
25 who had been on one knee was by now backing out,
1 holding his gun at waist height, pointing it and
2 swinging it from side to side; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You then describe how you shouted for someone
5 to get the bodies and people emerged and gathered round
6 them. At the time when you first walked through the
7 alleyway towards Glenfada Park and saw the three
8 bodies, were you at that stage, when you first began to
9 do that, conscious of there being people behind you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Obviously at some stage at least one man was
12 behind you because he pulled you back and said "are you
13 looking to get killed"; at that stage were you
14 conscious that other people had arrived behind you?
15 A. They were in the alleyway, they were not
16 directly behind me.
17 Q. So when you describe shouting for someone to
18 get the bodies and people emerging, people emerged from
19 the alleyway where, by now, they had gathered; is that
20 right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could we please have AM17.10. This, again,
23 is your statement to the Knights of Malta organisation
24 in 1972. There is a passage in it I would like your
25 help on. Having described Gerard McKinney you then
1 wrote the following:
2 "Then within a few seconds I arose again when
3 a male nurse had come to the scene. I ran to the other
4 three men and began shouting 'first aid', and the
5 soldiers began shooting at me again, but this time
6 I did not move. I stood shouting 'first aid' until the
7 three patients were undercover and as I went round the
8 corner I was shot at again."
9 Then you go on to deal with another topic.
10 As written that might be thought to suggest that you
11 were conscious of more than one soldier shooting. Were
12 you conscious of any more than one soldier shooting?
13 A. I cannot say for definite now, I cannot
14 remember.
15 Q. It does not contain a reference to your being
16 pulled back and then continuing on and it does contain
17 a reference, however, to going round a corner and being
18 shot at again. Do you have any idea what that may have
19 been a reference to?
20 A. It is probably me writing back to front.
21 Q. Sorry, what exactly do you mean by that?
22 A. I mean at the time it could have been that I,
23 I have wrote about going in, stepping in and getting
24 shot at and then just writing I went back in again and
25 the soldier opened up again.
1 Q. As I understand it, your present recollection
2 is of being shot at on one occasion, not two?
3 A. Being shot at coming across Abbey Park?
4 Q. Yes, but in Glenfada Park, being shot at on
5 one occasion, not two?
6 A. No, on one occasion.
7 Q. May we go back, please, to paragraph 27 on
8 AM17.4. You describe there in paragraph 27 how people
9 emerged and the bodies were lifted away and how you
10 were the first person there and Joseph Mahon was one of
11 those who was lying there.
12 Can you remember in which order bodies were
13 taken away?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Could we have on the screen photograph P688.
16 This is a photograph which has been identified to the
17 Tribunal as showing James Wray on the left-hand side
18 and William McKinney on the right-hand side being taken
19 from Glenfada Park, which is up there through the
20 alleyway which leads to Abbey Park. Would you have
21 been around at that stage; do you think you would have
22 witnessed this scene or something like it?
23 (Indicating).
24 A. I would have been standing until the bodies
25 were cleared from Glenfada Park.
1 Q. Standing in Glenfada Park?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Joseph Mahon, when you came across him, was
4 he lying still in the position that we see in the
5 photograph of the three bodies?
6 A. I did not go near any of the bodies, I stood
7 until all the bodies were lifted with the arms
8 outstretched.
9 Q. Was Joseph Mahon in particular trying to
10 crawl away, was he trying to crawl away?
11 A. I just kept facing the soldiers.
12 Q. Could we darken this a little more. Try
13 682. In this photograph we can actually see a figure
14 in Glenfada Park North, it is actually clearer in the
15 original in a white coat. (Marked with yellow arrow -
16 AM17.21). Do you think that might be you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I wonder if we could preserve that image as
19 AM17.21. So you stayed, as this photograph tends to
20 confirm, in Glenfada Park until the three bodies whom
21 you had seen had been removed from it; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know where they were taken to?
24 A. No.
25 Q. May we please go back to AM17.10. If we look
1 at your statement to the Knights of Malta it ends with
2 this paragraph:
3 "When I was called to the scene of another
4 accident I could not move the patient but gave his
5 friend a white bandage while I ran for a doctor. The
6 young boy was waving the hanky shouting 'Surrender',
7 but the soldiers shouted 'No' and at this I turned
8 round. The young boy shouted 'Go on, shoot me, you
9 have shot my best friend' and the soldier opened up and
10 shot him. I could not move for shock and at the
11 thought of the scene tears began running down my
12 cheeks."
13 As written, that is a very dramatic
14 incident. Do you have any recollection of what that is
15 about?
16 A. I cannot recall it, only about a white
17 bandage, I just cannot recall anything else.
18 Q. May we come then, please, to AM17.11. This
19 is a document on which you comment in your written
20 statement. We got it from the Sunday Times. It does
21 not purport to be a signed statement of yours. What it
22 appears to be are notes made by a Sunday Times
23 journalist of an interview with you. We think that may
24 have been Phillip Jacobson. Do you have any
25 recollection now of being interviewed by somebody from
1 the Sunday Times?
2 A. I have never given a statement to the Sunday
3 Times, never.
4 Q. Have you ever been interviewed by the Sunday
5 Times?
6 A. No, not to my knowledge.
7 Q. Is it possible that this interview, which
8 seems extremely detailed, took place but you simply and
9 understandably have forgotten about it?
10 A. No, there is a lot of discrepancies and words
11 that I certainly would never have used.
12 Q. Could we have a look at AM17.15. This is one
13 of the pages of the interview. The journalist has
14 noted this:
15 "She then saw three bodies lying in a perfect
16 triangle just through the passageway."
17 Then he describes your recognising William
18 McKinney, shouting to get these three men undercover,
19 people rushing out and pulling them round back through
20 the passageway to the far side and then returning to
21 the house where Friel had been and where you are
22 described as having left your sister.
23 I do not want so much to ask you about that
24 as to come to the paragraph that immediately follows,
25 in what appear to be these notes. What has been
1 written, is this:
2 "She then made her way back through the worst
3 part of the killing ground and crossed to the telephone
4 box area where McGuigan, who she also knew, was dead.
5 An ambulance had arrived to pick them up and it had
6 backed up with open doors when the firing began again
7 heavily. 'A man threw me down and dragged my medical
8 bag over as a cover'.
9 "She then noticed with horror that a small
10 boy, not over 14, was emerging across from her waving a
11 white hanky and shouting 'Surrender, surrender'.
12 Before she could shout to get back the firing started
13 and he dropped, but was not hit. Her brother was there
14 with McGuigan's shoes in hand and was going to carry
15 them to the ambulance, but she realised the army could
16 mistake them for a bomb/gun, so she took them at arm's
17 length.
18 "Having helped to get McGuigan and Gilmore
19 into the ambulance, she crossed back again to the
20 Glenfada side."
21 That appears to be an account of going over
22 to where Barry McGuigan was, which was to the south of
23 Block 1 of the Rossville Flats and, when there,
24 noticing a boy on the other side waving a white hanky
25 and shouting "surrender, surrender"; firing started, he
1 dropping to the ground, but was not hit. Looking at
2 that, does that bring back any recollection of the
3 incident, which looks rather similar to the incident
4 described in the last paragraph of your statement to
5 the Knights of Malta?
6 A. I really cannot remember.
7 Q. Do you recall going over to see where Barney
8 McGuigan was, near the telephone box below Block 1?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or of carrying his shoes to the ambulance?
11 A. Certainly not.
12 Q. Do you recall your brother being around on
13 Bloody Sunday?
14 A. I never met my brother on Bloody Sunday.
15 Q. May we go back to AM17.11 and could we
16 highlight the second half, from "we started off ..."
17 I am showing you this because the quotation
18 marks probably signify that this is intended to be
19 writing down words of yours. Can we look at the
20 passage. What the journalist has written, is this:
21 "'We started off at the very beginning back
22 in Bishop's Field. Mr Day decided to pair us off, so
23 I went with my friend Pauline Lynch. We stayed with
24 the march until it was about 30 yards from the
25 William Street barrier and there was no trouble up to
1 then, but there the CS was getting pretty bad and
2 people were running back towards us. So I got caught
3 in the crowd and lost Pauline and a man dragged me
4 along out of the way and I stood on the corner with
5 Rossville Street to get my breath back. I went back
6 the way I had come to try and find Pauline, but the
7 crowd was pushing me back and the gas was terrible,
8 worse than ever before.
9 "So I went back to Rossville Street and
10 crossed to the alley on your map. While I was there
11 I heard two sharp bangs which I thought were the usual
12 rubber bullets, they are part of life round here. Then
13 a man rushed up and shouted 'For God's sake come quick,
14 there is two men shot in a house here'. I said 'What,
15 with rubber bullets' and he said 'No, it is real guns
16 they are using.'"
17 The reference to the map looks pretty clearly
18 as if it is to the map -- may we have on the screen
19 AM17.17. It has a reference to your name at the top
20 and a date, Monday, 21st February. It appears to tie
21 in with what the journalist has written, because it
22 refers to your going up towards Chamberlain Street and
23 turning back, coming back to the junction with
24 Rossville Street then going back to look for your
25 friend -- those words read "went back to look for
1 friend" -- and coming back over Rossville Street
2 towards the alleyway to the north of Kells Walk and
3 then going, what the journalist has written here is "to
4 6A where two people wounded".
5 Does that, looking back at it, reflect what
6 happened at the beginning of the day on Bloody Sunday?
7 A. I have never made a statement to this Sunday
8 Times, so I cannot comment on something that I did not
9 comment about.
10 Q. Never mind whether you made the statement for
11 the moment.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is what it says accurate, in the sense that
14 you went down to William Street, came back because of
15 the gas, went back to look for your friend, came back
16 across Rossville Street and came to the alleyway to the
17 north of Kells Walk and were then summoned to a house
18 where two people were wounded; does that ring any
19 bells?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can we go over the page to AM17.12 what he
22 has recorded is this:
23 "When I arrived at the house, it was with
24 people called Shiels, I think [the journalist has
25 written to himself] (it was), there was a young man
1 [the journalist has written] (Doherty) [a
2 misunderstanding for Damien Donaghy] and an older man
3 (Johnston) and they both seemed to be hit in the leg.
4 My father and another Malta man, Tom McKinney, were
5 both there, so was Dr McClean and after putting a
6 dressing on Johnston I thought I should go out again ."
7 He seems to have got an account that you saw
8 Damien Donaghy and John Johnston at a house to which
9 they had been taken and put a dressing on John Johnston
10 there; did you go to a house at which either or both of
11 these people were?
12 A. No, and I would not have put a dressing on
13 Mr Johnston if there were senior members of the Malta,
14 Knights of Malta there.
15 Q. Was Tom McKinney a Knight of Malta man?
16 A. Tom McKinney was a doctor who helped out.
17 Q. He was a doctor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can we go to the next page, AM17.13. In this
20 passage of what purports to be an interview there is a
21 reference to Joseph Friel and his wound, described as a
22 shoulder bullet wound, plus a severely hysterical
23 woman; do you recall there being a severely hysterical
24 woman at the house where Joseph Friel was taken to?
25 A. No.
1 Q. There is what purports to be an account of
2 going to assist Gerard McKinney. What has been written
3 is this:
4 "The shooting was getting bad again and
5 I went to go out but a young chap in the house tried to
6 hold me back saying that I would surely be hurt."
7 Do you remember somebody at the house in
8 Lisfannon Park where you were trying to prevent you
9 going out, saying that you would be hurt?
10 A. No, and I do not remember saying some of the
11 words.
12 Q. It goes on to say this:
13 "She nonetheless went out and made her way
14 towards Glenfada Park. I could see a few people there
15 and then a man rushed up and said, 'For God's sake, get
16 over here fast, there's five men down here.'
17 "Two men were lying near the Abbey Park
18 triangle (see map) and she went to them first. She
19 just had time to see that one was still alive when a
20 burst of shooting forced her to dive down. I shouted
21 'Do not shoot, do not shoot, Red Cross', but they did
22 not stop firing."
23 I think you have told us you were not able to
24 tell whether either of the two people were still alive,
25 Gerard McKinney and Gerard Donaghy?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. Then it goes on to say:
3 "Robert Cadman, Malta man, came out to help
4 with the first two bodies and she moved towards the
5 passageway, towards Glenfada. Looking through she saw
6 five soldiers, two of whom were pointing rifles in her
7 direction. One of whom was firing continuously from
8 the kneeling position. She shouted 'Do not shoot, Red
9 Cross' and swears that one soldier shouted back 'Your
10 white coats are great targets, but your red hearts are
11 even better.'"
12 There is a map which seems to go with this,
13 it is the same map we looked at before. If we go back
14 to AM17.17, turn that round, what appears to have
15 happened here is that the journalist has taken up your
16 route coming back from the house where he understands
17 you to have been. He has written there what appears to
18 be "meets man and [something] to house" and then he has
19 shown you going to a house with -- that reads "with
20 Friel and hysterical woman" and coming back again, two
21 bodies here, which is roughly where you told us two
22 bodies were that you first saw. (Indicating). Then he
23 has written:
24 "Towards three bodies."
25 Then he has written:
1 "Three dead in triangle."
2 What he has then written, with five crosses
3 in the northeast corner of Glenfada Park, is:
4 "Five Paras firing."
5 That is in fact a very similar account to
6 that which you have given us, save that it refers to
7 a number of Paratroopers firing and them being up in
8 the northeast corner of Glenfada Park, as opposed to
9 one of them being practically in the centre.
10 You have a recollection, do you, that one of
11 those people whom you saw, one of the Paratroopers whom
12 you saw was a distance away from the others in the
13 centre of Glenfada Park as opposed to being with them
14 in the northeast corner?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you very much. The last matter
17 I wanted to ask you about, is this: could we have on
18 the screen AR10.1. This is a statement to this
19 Tribunal of a man called Edward Rigney. Could we
20 please go to AR10.6. Can we look at paragraphs 29 and
21 30. What he describes is how, in the course of the
22 day, he went at some stage west from Lisfannon Park and
23 then to Westland Street to try and find a medic or
24 a priest, but could not find anyone:
25 "We therefore came back east along
1 Fahan Street West (known to us as the Bog Road). We
2 then turned northeast into Abbey walk and then turned
3 into Glenfada Park North through the southwest
4 entrance. I reached approximately the point marked K
5 on the attached map."
6 I will show you that in a moment, but it is
7 at the southwest of Glenfada Park North. He goes on to
8 say this:
9 "30. From point K, I saw a man lying on his
10 back, his head to the west and his feet to the east.
11 He had a tight white jumper on and seemed to me to be
12 grey-haired and balding. I think he was in his 40s.
13 He was approximately at the point marked L on the
14 attached map. His hands were by his side and I do not
15 recall seeing gloves on them. He was being attended to
16 by a female medic. I think that there may have been
17 another medic, a man, but I am not sure. The female
18 medic was wearing a grey uniform with a white coat over
19 it and was kneeling on the man's left side, further
20 north from him, approximately at the point marked M on
21 the attached map. She was pumping his chest, obviously
22 trying to resuscitate him. I asked somebody what had
23 happened and was told that the man had had a heart
24 attack."
25 A little later on he says:
1 "Some time after Bloody Sunday I spoke to
2 someone who I believe may have been the female medic
3 I saw trying to resuscitate the man. She informed me
4 that the man being resuscitated had actually been shot
5 through the side but his jumper had contained the
6 wound ..."
7 If we could have on the screen AR10.12 to see
8 where he has been talking about. He has been
9 describing himself at point K, which is on the
10 southwest side of Glenfada Park North and the person
11 whom he saw apparently being resuscitated by a female
12 medic at L and the medic being at point M, that is at
13 the south of Glenfada Park North car park.
14 (Indicating).
15 Would I be right in thinking that you were
16 never engaged in resuscitating somebody, a male person,
17 in the Glenfada Park North car park?
18 A. I do not remember.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Those are my
20 questions.
21 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
22 LORD GIFFORD: Mrs Mahon, my name is Anthony
23 Gifford and I represent the family of James Wray.
24 I want to ask you to help us about the
25 question of the passage of time. You were in the house
1 in Lisfannon Park when the man you now know to be Joe
2 Friel was brought in.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you attended to him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. About how long did you spend with him before
7 you left to go to Abbey Park?
8 A. It would not have been very long because
9 I would not have been prepared to deal with a gunshot
10 wound, it would have been a matter of putting a padding
11 on him and telling him to go to hospital.
12 Q. So it is a few minutes?
13 A. Five.
14 Q. Five at the most?
15 A. Five, ten.
16 Q. It could be five or ten minutes?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Then you went to Abbey Park and you tended,
19 to some extent, to Gerard McKinney; about how long were
20 you with him?
21 A. I cannot honestly say. Time had no value to
22 me.
23 Q. Of course, that was a much more dramatic
24 occasion.
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Mrs Mahon, the only
2 other thing I would like to say on behalf of the
3 Wray family is to commend your great courage in going
4 out, insisting on seeing the bodies removed and
5 standing up to the soldiers as you did; thank you very
6 much.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
9 MR GLASGOW: Mrs Mahon, my name is Glasgow.
10 I represent many of the soldiers. I would like to echo
11 what my learned friend Lord Gifford has just said. The
12 Tribunal has a total, I think, of 13 statements from
13 witnesses, three of whom have already given evidence;
14 almost all of them pay tribute to your courage and
15 nothing that I ask you is intended to detract from that
16 in any way; I wholly accept -- my whole team does --
17 that you must have shown great courage on that day.
18 I would still like to ask you a few questions
19 about your recollection of some of the matters you have
20 put in your Eversheds statement and spoken about
21 today.
22 The first, Mrs Mahon, is right at the
23 beginning, the very first paragraph of your statement,
24 if we go back to AM17.1, you very helpfully and
25 candidly refer to the understandable position of people
1 not wishing to go to Altnagelvin Hospital and your own
2 belief that people sometimes went to Letterkenny.
3 Did you yourself, do you have any
4 recollection, ever take people to Letterkenny?
5 A. I do not recollect taking anybody, although
6 there was in a book by Dr McClean that I helped take
7 somebody to Letterkenny, but I do not recall it.
8 Q. You recall it simply -- I think we have all
9 read it in Dr McClean's book, that he refers to you
10 helping to take somebody to Letterkenny; you have no
11 recollection of that now?
12 A. No, I have not.
13 Q. Very well, I will not press it.
14 Can I take you forward, please, to AM17.3,
15 this is paragraph 17. Again you have already helped
16 the Tribunal about your recollection of this. You will
17 understand, I am sure, I am concerned that the Tribunal
18 should have the best evidence possible as to where the
19 soldier who may have fired a shot at you was?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could we look once more at Mr Cadman's
22 statement that he has given to this Tribunal because,
23 of course, you knew Robert Cadman and you were aware of
24 him joining you in that area, I think?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. He was a Knight of Malta with you. What he
2 has been able to tell this Tribunal is set out in his
3 statement at AC1 at page 37. While that comes up,
4 I can say he entirely agrees. He has drawn a plan
5 which shows you coming up from the Old Bog Road which
6 is where you recall coming from, is it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could we look together at paragraphs 22 and
9 23 to see if that helps. What he has told the Tribunal
10 is this:
11 "We came out of Columbcille Court and went
12 south down the alleyway between Abbey Park and
13 Glenfada Park North."
14 He then sees the two bodies. He does not
15 know precisely where they were. The last three lines:
16 "I then noticed Eibhlin Lafferty, who was
17 also a Knight of Malta, coming towards us in
18 a northerly direction, as shown by the arrow on the
19 map."
20 That precisely accords, agrees, with your
21 recollection, does it not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That is where you were. You are walking
24 towards one another?
25 A. No, I was running.
1 Q. You were running, but you were moving towards
2 one another; you from the south and he coming down from
3 the north?
4 A. Apparently.
5 Q. It is the next paragraph I wanted, to see
6 whether it helped you:
7 "I then noticed two soldiers in the
8 southwestern corner of Glenfada Park North."
9 He marks that position, but you do not need
10 to know where that is, do you?
11 A. I would prefer to see it.
12 Q. You would prefer?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We need to go to AC1.42, please. This, of
15 course, is his map that he has marked?
16 A. I have never read his statement.
17 Q. That is why I thought that perhaps having
18 seen what he said at the time you might like to see his
19 contemporary statement. If I may have control of that:
20 he has the arrow of you coming up referring to that.
21 The general area where the bodies were where you were
22 approaching is the circle, but he says he is not quite
23 sure where you were and the entrance to which he is
24 referring in the southwest corner is where the line
25 goes through is marked with a red arrow.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. There is nothing more that helps you on the
3 map; is there?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You have your bearings?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could we go back, please, to AM17.4. I am
8 sorry, I want Mr Cadman's statement, it is AC1.37.
9 Just to remind you, again, this is the account we were
10 looking at that Mr Cadman has given this Tribunal. We
11 were just on paragraph 23, if you remember, and we
12 showed you where the point was on the southwest corner:
13 "One of the soldiers was kneeling down and
14 was armed with a rifle, the other soldier was standing
15 behind him and was armed with a rubber bullet gun."
16 A little lower down:
17 "The soldier with the rubber bullet gun was
18 pointing his gun towards Eibhlin and so I shouted to
19 her 'Eibhlin, drop down, do not move.'"
20 You do not have any recollection today of him
21 saying that?
22 A. No, I could only focus on Mr McKinney,
23 although I did not know him at the time, I heard and
24 saw nothing else.
25 Q. Mr Cadman goes on:
1 "As I called towards her, I heard a ping and
2 saw her fall. She was clutching her leg. I presumed
3 that she had been hit and I cannot remember what
4 happened to her after that."
5 Does that help at all, do you recall there
6 being one distinct shot and that you were at least
7 conscious of the fact that it had passed very close to
8 your leg?
9 A. There was more than one shot.
10 Q. You think there was more than one?
11 A. I am definite there was more than one.
12 Q. We will leave it there. There is that
13 difference between you, I will not press it. Can we go
14 back to your statement, please, at AM17.4. I now
15 wanted to help you, if I may, Mrs Mahon, with the
16 account you recall at paragraph 26 of coming out into
17 Glenfada Park North.
18 There is one matter in particular that
19 I wanted you to know of that the Tribunal has been told
20 about. One of the numerous witnesses who bears
21 testimony to your courage, refers to the fact that you
22 took -- he believes you took your white coat off and
23 waved it as you went out. That is a Mr Noel Kelly;
24 does that ring a bell at all?
25 A. It does not ring a bell. I was waving my
1 white Knights of Malta medical bag.
2 Q. Mr Kelly has given evidence, he is one of
3 a number that has already given evidence, do you think
4 he may be confused about that or is it possible you did
5 take your coat off?
6 A. I cannot speak for Mr Kelly.
7 Q. Of course not, I am not asking you to, but
8 I am giving you the opportunity to comment on it
9 because it may be one or other of you is confused and
10 it seemed only fair and right to give you the
11 opportunity of telling you what he had said?
12 A. I do not think I took my coat off, but I am
13 not contradicting Mr Kelly.
14 Q. I do not want to put it wrongly, Mrs Mahon,
15 is it you have no recollection one way or the other?
16 A. No, I was swinging about my first aid bag,
17 but I had on my white coat at all times.
18 Q. Your recollection is that this extremely
19 offensive and obviously grossly improper remark (if
20 said) was shouted at you by a soldier not many yards
21 away?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Simply so you can deal with it, I have
24 already paid tribute to your courage and those who have
25 spoken about it, but the Tribunal does have statements
1 from eight people who refer to this incident, three of
2 whom have already given evidence, and not one of them
3 has referred, either in the statement or in the
4 evidence, to hearing any such remark; you are quite
5 sure it was made?
6 A. I am positive it was made. There was not a
7 being in the square when the soldier said it, only the
8 soldiers.
9 Q. Can you think of any reason why you would not
10 have referred to really a threatened attack upon the
11 uniform when you made your report a few days later to
12 the Knights of Malta?
13 A. Um, I was young.
14 Q. Yes, of course.
15 A. I was traumatised. I really did not
16 understand the depth of what I had experienced or what
17 I had gone through that day.
18 Q. Mrs Mahon, I am sure that is right, but very
19 fairly my learned friend Mr Clarke, who asked you
20 questions first, took you to the really very detailed
21 and quite colourful account that you gave, very, very
22 graphically, of the terrifying incident that you had
23 been through, including an account of actually seeing
24 somebody effectively shot while trying to surrender in
25 Glenfada Park. If you are right, within moments of
1 that the uniform of the institution to which you were
2 making this report had been referred to as a target?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you think it possible that you really
5 forgot that because of the state you were in when all
6 the other detail was so close to your mind?
7 A. I think I blanked a lot out at that time.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN
10 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Mrs Mahon, my name is Allan
11 Green and I appear for some of the soldiers.
12 May I say straightaway that I associate
13 myself with what has been said about your bravery on
14 that day, but may I go on, I hope quite politely, to
15 suggest that you have blanked out the interview that
16 I suggest you did have with the journalist from the
17 Sunday Times?
18 A. No, I did not ever have an interview with the
19 Sunday Times.
20 Q. You see, I certainly do not want to take it
21 in any detail or take up a lot of time about it, but
22 let us just look at two passages, if we may, to make
23 the point.
24 The first one is AM17.4 and it is paragraph
25 26. It is the passage that Mr Edwin Glasgow, who sits
1 in front of me, was asking you about just a few minutes
2 ago, but I ask you about it in a slightly different
3 context.
4 You can see there what the soldier is said to
5 have shouted about your white coat and your red heart.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You see that there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can we also look, please, next, at 17.13.
10 Let us look at that quite briefly, because we find
11 towards the bottom of that page, the last five lines:
12 "'Do not shoot, Red Cross' and swears that
13 one soldier shouted back 'Your white coats are great
14 targets but your red hearts are even better.'"
15 You see, that detail of that very offensive
16 remark by the soldier finds its way into both accounts,
17 the Eversheds statement that you made and also the
18 documentation coming from the Sunday Times. Let me ask
19 you this: if they did not get it from you, where may
20 they have got it from?
21 A. It was common knowledge; it could have been
22 got from any other Knights of Malta person or anybody
23 in the street.
24 Q. You see, it was not -- as Mr Glasgow has
25 pointed out -- it was not in the report that you made,
1 in your handwritten report, there is no reference to it
2 there, so they certainly could not have got it from
3 there.
4 A. No.
5 Q. The other thing, and I take it quite shortly,
6 in both your Eversheds statement and the Sunday Times
7 documentation there is the account of the young man who
8 shouted out "I surrender".
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Again, is that something that you are
11 suggesting they could have got from elsewhere?
12 A. I have never -- I can only tell you I have
13 never made a statement to the Sunday Times, never and
14 I cannot comment on what I did not make.
15 Q. Mrs Mahon, you see, the suggestion I make is
16 this: that you did indeed give an interview and now
17 bitterly regret it and you are in denial about it?
18 A. I am sorry, I am in denial of nothing that
19 happened on Bloody Sunday.
20 Q. Mrs Mahon, thank you very much for answering
21 my questions.
22 A. You are welcome.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, do you have any
24 further questions?
25 Questioned by MR CLARKE
1 MR CLARKE: Just two matters, could you
2 remind me, what colour was your first aid bag on the
3 day?
4 A. White.
5 Q. I wonder if you could help us a little more:
6 you described finding a singe in the trousers you had
7 borrowed from your sister when you looked at them
8 later. Do you remember now, tell us if you do not,
9 where exactly the singe was?
10 A. On the right-hand side of the right leg, at
11 the knee.
12 Q. On the right-hand side of the right leg?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall at what level of the leg?
15 A. At the knee, at the side of the knee.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Mahon, it is the Chairman
17 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
18 assist this Inquiry. Thank you.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 MR CHARLES HASLETT, sworn
21 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Haslett, if you look to
23 your right you will be able to see who is talking to
24 you. I say this to all the witnesses: I am the
25 Chairman of the Tribunal. The questions will come in
1 the main from the barristers, the people in front of
2 me. Could you try and remember to keep close to that
3 microphone in front of you so we can all hear what you
4 have to say.
5 MR ROXBURGH: Mr Haslett, do you have with
6 you a copy of the statement that you made to this
7 Inquiry on 22nd September 1999?
8 A. I have.
9 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
10 the best of your knowledge and belief?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You explain in your statement that at the
13 time of Bloody Sunday you were a staff reporter in the
14 Derry office of the Belfast Telegraph?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. You were on the march, at least in its later
17 stages, with Mr Cassidy, the editor of the Derry
18 Journal?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. If we look at paragraph 2 you say, five lines
21 down, that:
22 "Most of the crowd turned immediately south
23 down Rossville Street to go to Free Derry Corner, apart
24 from the young people. The stewards at the corner of
25 William Street and Rossville Street tried to get
1 everyone to turn down Rossville Street, but there was
2 no stopping these young people and they just went
3 towards the barrier anyway."
4 Can you remember, Mr Haslett, what the
5 stewards were doing to try to make everyone turn down
6 Rossville Street?
7 A. My recollection was that they formed
8 something of a barrier, holding hand in hand, and waved
9 towards, in fact, Rossville Street.
10 Q. Did they try then physically to prevent the
11 young people going on down the street, or --
12 A. There was nothing physical, it was merely an
13 injunction that they should in fact follow the lorry
14 which was leading the parade into Rossville Street.
15 Q. But the young people just took no notice?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. In paragraph 3 you describe what was going on
18 at barrier 14. We do not need to go into that, but can
19 we go on to paragraph 4, please, where you say that
20 after watching the events at the barrier for a while,
21 you went back to Rossville Street and you say that
22 while you were talking to some people there you first
23 heard that there had been some shooting and that
24 whoever had been shot had been taken into
25 Glenfada Park.
1 Are you sure you were told that whoever had
2 been shot had been taken into Glenfada Park as opposed
3 to Columbcille Court?
4 A. Actually Glenfada Park was the area which was
5 mentioned to me, it is approached via
6 Columbcille Court.
7 Q. In any event, you decided to go to
8 Glenfada Park?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. By the time that you left Rossville Street,
11 do you remember whether any soldiers or army vehicles
12 had arrived in Rossville Street?
13 A. No, the army had not arrived at that stage.
14 Q. If we then go on to paragraphs 5 and 6 on the
15 next page, you have described going into
16 Glenfada Park North and three lines down in paragraph
17 6, you say that you were about three-quarters of the
18 way across the courtyard when you heard shooting which
19 seemed to be coming from Rossville Street.
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And you describe it a couple of lines further
22 on as sounding like fairly rapid fire and towards the
23 end of the paragraph you say that it sounded like rifle
24 fire?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Would you have been able to distinguish rifle
2 fire from rubber bullets?
3 A. I would have been, yes.
4 Q. If we go on to paragraph 7 you say that the
5 gunfire seemed to be very loud and close and so you lay
6 prone on the ground at point C, which has been marked
7 for us on the plan attached to your statement. You
8 describe, if I can summarise, how after a time the
9 shooting seemed to have stopped and you looked around
10 and you saw two people lying on the ground directly in
11 front of you at about point D on the map and you say
12 that both of them were male and you think they were
13 lying face down; you called out to them "are you all
14 right" and received no answer.
15 Then you describe trying to get up and move
16 towards them and a single shot ringing out. You lay
17 still again and after a couple of minutes tried to get
18 up again and again a shot rang out and again you lay
19 still. At the end of this paragraph you say that there
20 was no one else in the courtyard apart from you and the
21 two bodies and you could not hear any firing around you
22 at the time.
23 Are you really sure about that, Mr Haslett,
24 that there was no one else in the courtyard apart from
25 you and the two bodies?
1 A. There is a -- actually prior to that I, you
2 know, got myself sort of a little bit mixed up at the
3 time. I was actually called into a house in
4 Glenfada Park before I discovered the two bodies lying
5 in the area.
6 Q. I was going to ask you about that. Can we
7 look at the plan attached to your statement at M38.19,
8 because we can see on this plan where point C and
9 point D have been marked. They were the spots where,
10 no doubt doing the best you could when you made your
11 statement to the Inquiry, you thought you had been
12 lying on the ground at point C and where you thought
13 the bodies were at point D. It is now your
14 recollection, is it, that you had been into a house in
15 Glenfada Park before you saw those bodies?
16 A. That is correct, yes.
17 Q. Can I ask you this: how well at the time did
18 you know this area of Glenfada Park and Abbey Park?
19 A. Not particularly well, I had never been in
20 Glenfada Park before.
21 Q. Would you have known the difference between
22 Glenfada Park and Abbey Park if you were trying to
23 describe where you had been?
24 A. No, I would not.
25 Q. Can we look next, please, at paragraph 8 of
1 your statement at page M38.5. You describe hearing
2 a voice calling to you saying something to the effect
3 of, "what the hell do you think you are doing" and you
4 refer to a man standing at his door calling to you and
5 running into his house, which you describe as "an end
6 house", you believe at the southwestern side of
7 Glenfada Park North at point E on the map. If we go
8 over the page, M38.6, you say that you were fairly
9 shocked at the time and not taking in your surroundings
10 very well, but you believed there were several other
11 people in the house and a few wounded. You say:
12 "I have a vague notion that the house
13 belonged to a man called Rogan. I thought I recognised
14 him at the time, but whether it was his house or not
15 I do not know. I am told that Mr Rogan's house is
16 outside of Glenfada Park North and it is quite possible
17 that I went to another house than the one I remember.
18 As I have said, I have a feeling that I went to Rogan's
19 house, but I might be wrong about this and I might just
20 think it was his house because I know people were in
21 his house on the day."
22 Mr Haslett, what I would like to be clear
23 about, is this: you have referred very helpfully this
24 morning to going into a house before you saw the two
25 bodies; is it now your recollection that you went into
1 one house and then saw the bodies and then went into
2 the house that may have been Mr Rogan's house, or was
3 the house that you went into before you saw the bodies
4 the one that may have been Mr Rogan's house?
5 A. The house I went into before I saw the
6 bodies.
7 Q. Can we look again please at the plan at
8 M38.19. The spot that has been marked for you on this
9 plan as indicating what may be the location of the
10 house that you went into is spot E and you have said
11 that you think it was an end house, which fits in with
12 that.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We know in fact that Mr Rogan's house was not
15 at point E, but was over in Abbey Park and in fact it
16 was number 10 Abbey Park which is just where my arrow
17 is pointing now. (Marked with blue arrow). Are you
18 able to help from looking at the map at all as to
19 whether you went through into Abbey Park before you saw
20 these two bodies?
21 A. I was in a house at some particular location
22 before I saw the bodies. Whether it was the one which
23 is now marked as Abbey Park with the blue arrow was the
24 house I was in or not, I just cannot be sure.
25 Q. I would like to show you a photograph which
1 may or may not be what you saw. Please do not assume
2 that it is what you saw just because I am showing it to
3 you, it may not be. Can we look at P680, please. That
4 is a photograph of the courtyard of Glenfada Park North
5 looking from north to south. Does that scene look
6 anything like what you saw?
7 A. No, it does not.
8 Q. There is an alternative possibility which
9 I would like to consider with you in a moment. Can
10 I first show you a view from the virtual reality, spot
11 28. Mr Haslett, this is a modern view of the houses in
12 Abbey Park. If we move round from left to right it may
13 help you to see where we are. Over here on the left we
14 have the two blocks of Glenfada Park. The block on the
15 left is Glenfada Park North and the block on the right
16 is Glenfada Park South.
17 Then moving back to the right we can see what
18 is in fact the northeast facing block of Abbey Park
19 with Mr Rogan's house being the second house from the
20 right, it is actually the centre house in that block.
21 If we go further round we can see the Stardust Hall and
22 over in this direction Columbcille Court.
23 Does anything in this view assist you at all
24 in terms of helping you to identify the location of any
25 house that you went into or the location of the bodies
1 that you saw?
2 A. If you continue to swing to the left --
3 sorry, to the right. It could have been one of those
4 houses. Now which of them, I am not terribly sure.
5 I thought the house I entered was one on the extreme
6 right, but I just cannot be sure at this juncture.
7 Q. Can I put to you again a possibility for your
8 consideration, which is that you go into Glenfada Park
9 and you hear some shooting; a man invites you into his
10 house; you go into the house for a time and then you
11 come out and see the two bodies and after you have seen
12 the two bodies you go into what is in fact Mr Rogan's
13 house that we see in the centre of this picture?
14 A. No, my memory now is that it did not quite
15 happen like that: that I was called into what I thought
16 might have been Mr Rogan's house; there were some
17 wounded in the house. A short time later I left there
18 and went back out into the courtyard and it was then
19 I spotted the two bodies.
20 Q. You identify yourself in your statement in
21 a photograph which perhaps we can have on the screen,
22 M38.18. It is not a very good reproduction of the
23 photograph and it may be that the top of the photograph
24 has been slightly cut off. Is it right that you have
25 identified yourself as this gentleman on the right of
1 the picture?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. That, as we know and I think you know, is a
4 photograph of a group of people, including yourself,
5 gathered around the body of Gerard McKinney. Is that
6 one of the two bodies that you are referring to when
7 you speak of seeing two bodies?
8 A. Yes, yes, I believe it is.
9 Q. So if we can locate the position where this
10 photograph was taken, would you agree that that is
11 really the most accurate guide to the spot where you
12 saw these two bodies?
13 A. Yes, I would say so.
14 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Roxburgh, we have got to
15 12.10, so it might be a convenient moment to stop.
16 MR ROXBURGH: Certainly, yes.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Haslett, the Chairman
18 again, we will stop now for lunch, especially as the
19 lady to your right has been taking down every word
20 since 9.30. Can you come back about 10 to 1, please,
21 to finish your evidence. Can I ask you, like I ask all
22 witnesses in a similar position: please do not discuss
23 the evidence you are giving with anybody until you have
24 finished giving it. Thank you.
25 (12.10 pm)
1 (The luncheon adjournment)
2 (1.10 pm)
3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Haslett, the Chairman.
4 Forgive us for keeping you waiting, we had some rather
5 urgent Inquiry business to attend to.
6 A. That is quite all right, my Lord.
7 MR ROXBURGH: Can we have on the screen,
8 please, page M38.6 and can we highlight paragraphs 8
9 and 9?
10 Mr Haslett, in these paragraphs you are
11 describing the scene in the house that you believe was
12 the house that belonged to Mr Rogan. As we have seen
13 at the top of the page in paragraph 8, you say that you
14 believe there were several other people in the house
15 and a few wounded.
16 Then in paragraph 9 you describe the young
17 lad with a very bad stomach wound. Apart from him, can
18 you actually remember any other wounded people in this
19 house?
20 A. I remember this, in fact, young lad well.
21 I only got as far as the door of the room in which he
22 was lying and I saw him being carried out. There were
23 other people, as far as I can recall, apparently on the
24 floor in that same room, but I was unable to enter the
25 room properly to see.
1 Q. Were you, in fact, able to tell whether any
2 of those other people had been wounded or could they
3 just have been sitting or --
4 A. Well, I did not see wounds on any of them,
5 but they were lying on the floor.
6 Q. You explain in paragraph 9 that a doctor was
7 attending to the young man and opening his shirt and
8 saying that he should be taken to hospital.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You have what you describe at the end of the
11 paragraph as a vague recollection of people carrying
12 the young lad out of the door and a vague notion that
13 someone arrived with a car, and he was driven away.
14 A. Yes.
15 LORD SAVILLE: The Chairman again, to your
16 right: do you have a recollection of where this young
17 lad with the stomach wound was in the house? Was he in
18 a living room or elsewhere; do you have any
19 recollection of where he was?
20 A. He appeared to be in a sitting room, that was
21 the impression I had, and he was just immediately
22 inside the door of the sitting room.
23 Q. Not in a hallway or anything like that?
24 A. No, no, he was not in the hallway.
25 MR ROXBURGH: Do you recall whether anybody
1 searched his pockets while he was in the house?
2 A. No, I do not, no, I did not see that happen.
3 Q. Were you in a position to have an
4 uninterrupted view of his body, or were there people
5 crowding around him?
6 A. There were people crowding round. I did not
7 have a totally uninterrupted view.
8 Q. Did you get a closer view when he was carried
9 out of the house?
10 A. I did, yes.
11 Q. Did you, at any stage, notice any bulky
12 objects in the pockets, either of his coat or his
13 trousers?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. Is it possible, Mr Haslett, that this young
16 boy was in fact one of the two bodies that you saw to
17 whom you have referred?
18 A. Yes, there is that possibility, but I really
19 do not think so. It was after I left that house that
20 I found the two bodies in Glenfada Park.
21 Q. That is indeed what you have said to us this
22 morning. Can we have a look, please, at page M38.1,
23 which is a copy of the statement that you made for the
24 purposes of the Widgery Tribunal on 11th February
25 1972. Is it fair to say, Mr Haslett, that since this
1 is the statement that you made just a few days after
2 the events in question it is likely to contain the most
3 accurate recollection that you are able to give?
4 A. Oh, I would agree with that, yes.
5 Q. Perhaps we can just then go to page M38.2 and
6 have a look at what you say there. Can we highlight
7 the passage where one can see the first punched hole on
8 the left down to the foot of the page, please? If
9 I can pick it up on the third line we have on the
10 screen, you say this:
11 "As I made my way across Glenfada Park,
12 I heard the sound of shots -- I think high velocity --
13 and at that moment looking down an alleyway between the
14 flats I could see two or three soldiers running up
15 Rossville Street towards Free Derry Corner."
16 I think it is right because you have said in
17 your statement that today you have no recollection of
18 seeing those soldiers in Rossville Street; is that
19 right?
20 A. No, no, no, at one stage I had totally
21 forgotten that I had seen them, but that has since been
22 revised in my mind. I did see a number of soldiers
23 running up Rossville Street.
24 Q. Can you remember where you were when you saw
25 those soldiers?
1 A. No, unfortunately I cannot, but I viewed them
2 through one of the little alleyways which led onto
3 Rossville Street.
4 Q. Then you say:
5 "There was general confusion among the people
6 in Glenfada Park (perhaps 30 in all) and they scattered
7 in all directions."
8 You have told us in your statement to this
9 Inquiry that your present recollection is that there
10 were many more than 30 people?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You go on:
13 "A man standing at his front door called me
14 over and brought me into his house -- the end house of
15 a row -- with about 15 others."
16 I think you now say you do not remember as
17 many as 15 people being in that house?
18 A. Oh, there could have been in fact 15. I did
19 not search the house, I just went into the hall, to the
20 doorway of the room where the young lad was being
21 examined, I did not go any further into the house than
22 that.
23 Q. Let us go on and see how your statement
24 continues, because you refer to going into this house
25 at the invitation of this man. In the next sentence,
1 you say:
2 "After about five minutes I left the house by
3 the rear door and at the rear garden gate met a young
4 man, very distraught, calling for an ambulance."
5 Do you have any recollection now of meeting a
6 young man, calling for an ambulance?
7 A. As a matter of fact I do not.
8 Q. Then you say:
9 "I came back round the house into
10 Glenfada Park where I saw two men lying motionless on
11 the ground. One in his late teens, the other in his
12 mid thirties. With others who came out of the houses
13 we walked towards the two men. More shots were fired.
14 I could not see who fired or whether they were aimed at
15 us -- we simply threw ourselves flat."
16 That seems to fit in with what you have told
17 us today, that you saw these two bodies after you had
18 been into the first house?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. If we go on you say:
21 "Two Knights of Malta ambulance attendants
22 appeared from my right. More shots rang out and the
23 attendants -- one a young girl -- also had to throw
24 themselves flat beside the injured men."
25 Is it right you do not now remember the
1 Knights of Malta attendants?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. You do?
4 A. Oh, I do, yes.
5 Q. It is just in your statement to this Inquiry
6 you seem to say that you did not remember them, but you
7 now do remember them --
8 A. Oh, yes, yes.
9 Q. -- these Knights of Malta attendants. Is the
10 description given there in accordance with your present
11 recollection, that the Knights of Malta attendants
12 appeared from your right and threw themselves flat when
13 some more shots rang out?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The next thing you say here is:
16 "There was then a slight lull and the younger
17 man was pulled clear of the area by people on hands and
18 knees and then lifted into one of the houses. The man
19 carried into the house had a stomach wound (he was
20 unconscious) and was taken away by car -- I helped to
21 carry him out to the car."
22 Does that suggest, Mr Haslett, that the young
23 man with the stomach wound who was taken away in a car
24 after he had been removed to one of the houses was, in
25 fact, one of the bodies that you had seen lying on the
1 ground?
2 A. It would appear to suggest so, but you know
3 quite honestly at the present time I have -- I just
4 cannot say.
5 Q. Do you think it may be possible that you did
6 actually help to carry him out to the car, as it says
7 here?
8 A. It is possible. I was standing at the
9 doorway and if there was an attempt to bring him past
10 me, I might have, say, caught his arm, something like
11 that.
12 Q. If we go on over the page and highlight the
13 first two paragraphs, please, you say:
14 "During the time I was in the area I did not
15 hear a bomb blast of any sort nor did I see any
16 civilian armed with a gun. I had heard no shots before
17 the soldiers appeared in Rossville Street. I am quite
18 sure that the man carried into the house had no weapons
19 or bombs."
20 Pausing there, can you help as to how you
21 were able to be sure he did not have any weapons or
22 bombs?
23 A. Well, I would have to revise that slightly
24 just: I did not see him with any weapons or bombs, nor
25 did I see anything either in his hand or, or in his
1 jacket pocket, so obviously I just cannot be absolutely
2 certain.
3 Q. Then you continue:
4 " ... nor do I believe that the other man had
5 any. I was close to him before the Knights of Malta
6 arrived and I stood over him, watching the Knights of
7 Malta working on him for about five minutes immediately
8 after the first injured man had been taken away by
9 car. If there had been any weapon there I would have
10 seen it."
11 Does that appear to be a description of you
12 standing by the man we now know to be
13 Mr Gerard McKinney as seen in the photograph we looked
14 at a little earlier?
15 A. It appears to do that, yes.
16 Q. Can we go, please, to page M38.6, paragraphs
17 10 and 11 of your statement to this Inquiry where you
18 describe being taken to another house where you
19 recognised Mr William McKinney, and he appeared to be
20 dead?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. In paragraph 11 you say that:
23 "In the two houses, [that is to say the house
24 where you saw the boy with the stomach wound and the
25 house where you saw Mr McKinney] I was conscious of
1 having seen four or five bodies lying around on the
2 floors. There was the boy in the first house who I had
3 seen removed and taken away somewhere, I presume to
4 hospital; there was Willie McKinney's body and another
5 lying close to him on the floor of the second house,
6 and one or two others in the second house", and you say
7 you cannot remember anything about these bodies other
8 than what you have described?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Are you really sure, Mr Haslett, that you saw
11 two or three bodies in addition to Mr McKinney in that
12 second house?
13 A. As far as I possibly can, yes, that is, that
14 is in fact my recollection.
15 Q. Is it your recollection that those other
16 bodies were people who were either dead or seriously
17 injured, or could they have been people with more minor
18 injuries?
19 A. Oh, they could have been in fact people with
20 minor injuries.
21 Q. Are you clear that you only went into these
22 houses that you described, the house where you saw the
23 boy with the stomach wound and the house where you saw
24 Mr McKinney, or is it possible that you went into yet
25 another house?
1 A. I have no recollection of being in any other
2 house.
3 Q. The next matter is paragraph 12, please, on
4 the same page, where you explain that you decided to
5 make your way back to the City Hotel and you met your
6 friend Mr PK Doherty. You say that, although there are
7 certain blanks in your memory, you found yourselves
8 standing somewhere with your backs to a red brick wall?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Which may have been at the point marked "F"
11 on the map, but you are really not sure?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. You say at the foot of the page:
14 "We were looking towards Rossville Street at
15 the time, but we were very conscious that it was not
16 safe to be anywhere near Rossville Street."
17 A. That is correct, yes.
18 Q. Over the page, if we can look at
19 paragraph 13, the top of M38.7, you describe two shots
20 ringing out and hitting that wall above your head and
21 above Mr Doherty's head.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you refer also to the opinion of the
24 American ballistics expert.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can we, with that in mind, look, please, at
2 the plan, M38.19, just to see where you have marked
3 point "F" as being a possible location for where this
4 happened, and accepting that you say you are not sure
5 about it. It is just that southern corner of
6 Glenfada Park South.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. To see whether it helps you I would like to
9 look at the virtual reality view, spot 47, please.
10 What will come up on the screen is a fairly modern
11 photograph of that corner of Glenfada Park South. As
12 you will doubtless know, the buildings on the other
13 side of Rossville Street have changed since 1972, but
14 we are looking now towards where the Rossville Flats
15 would have stood with Rossville Street in the centre of
16 the screen leading up --
17 LORD SAVILLE: Just use the artist's
18 panorama --
19 MR ROXBURGH: We can try the artist's
20 panorama, sir. This is now a combination, Mr Haslett,
21 of computer graphics and modern photographs. You can
22 see now the position of the Rossville Flats, then
23 coming round to the left we can see the corner of
24 Glenfada Park South with two gable walls and a
25 staircase built of brick in between them, and then up
1 in this direction we have Fahan Street West as it
2 appears in the map, but more often known as the Old Bog
3 Road. If we go round there we would be looking down
4 towards Free Derry Corner. There we can see
5 Joseph Place and the Walker Monument and the walls.
6 Does any of that help you one way or the
7 other in saying whether there was the spot where these
8 shots were fired and where you were standing with
9 Mr Doherty, or whether it was not that location?
10 A. I just cannot be absolutely certain. It
11 certainly looks as though it could have been.
12 Q. If we go back to the plan at M38.19, please,
13 we still have the arrow indicating the spot at which we
14 have just been looking. The American ballistics expert
15 to whom you refer in your statement was in fact
16 commenting on some bullet damage, or apparent bullet
17 damage, to this gable wall at the corner of
18 Glenfada Park North where it opens out onto
19 Rossville Street.
20 Is that a location in which you might have
21 been or is that too close to Rossville Street?
22 A. It could very well have been the location.
23 It looks as though it could be right. It was somewhere
24 anyway where the wall was at a bit of an angle to the
25 line of Rossville Street. I could not see down
1 Rossville Street from where I was standing.
2 Q. Finally, Mr Haslett, you tell us in your
3 statement -- we do not need to look at it on the screen
4 because I would like to keep the map on the screen, but
5 it is paragraph 14 -- that you made your way back to
6 the City Hotel and you speak of going up the Bogside to
7 avoid Rossville Street and of another shot being fired
8 as you went.
9 When you say that you went up the Bogside, do
10 you mean that you went up the Old Bog Road or
11 Fahan Street West as it appears on this plan, up here?
12 A. That is right, yes.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Haslett, those are
14 all my questions.
15 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
16 MR GLASGOW: Mr Haslett, I am on your left.
17 My name is Glasgow. I represent many of the soldiers.
18 There are a very few points, if I may.
19 Could I ask you about the situation when you
20 left the rioting that was taking place in
21 William Street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You deal with that, sir, at the fourth
24 paragraph of your statement at M38.4. Could we look at
25 that together, paragraph 4 at the bottom? What you
1 told the Tribunal -- you have confirmed this morning --
2 that the time when you went back up William Street what
3 you call the "tail end" of the official march had
4 already got to Free Derry Corner; do you remember that
5 point?
6 A. Yes, yes, it was not within my view anyway at
7 that stage.
8 Q. Your understanding was that the official
9 march, indeed the very tail end of it, had already gone
10 down Rossville Street?
11 A. Yes, I think so, that is my recollection.
12 Q. If one had been waiting for a time when there
13 was a clear separation between the civil rights
14 marchers and those who wanted to riot, that time had
15 certainly arrived?
16 A. Oh, yes, it had.
17 Q. The only other matter, Mr Haslett: you have
18 just been helping my learned friend with the questions
19 he asked about your belief that possibly some of the
20 shooting had come from the city walls. Am I right in
21 thinking, sir, it was really only when you heard the
22 views that were being expressed by the American expert
23 that it first occurred to you that any of the shooting
24 might have come from the walls?
25 A. No, I was conscious that shots were fired,
1 I believe, from the city walls as I was making my way
2 up Fahan Street.
3 Q. When did you first think that might be the
4 case?
5 A. Oh, actually on the day.
6 Q. On the day?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was that a relatively small number of shots?
9 A. Three in total.
10 Q. Three in total you thought may have come from
11 the walls?
12 A. From the wall, that is correct.
13 Q. If it helps, sir, I suggest you might well be
14 right.
15 The last matter, Mr Haslett, is this: by
16 Bloody Sunday you, sadly, as a local journalist had
17 quite a lot of experience of riots and trouble of one
18 kind or another, sadly, had you not?
19 A. I had indeed, yes.
20 Q. There were two matters you were asked about
21 in the Widgery Inquiry which I wanted you to help the
22 Tribunal with, if you could.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. From your own experience, I think you knew
25 and were able to tell Lord Widgery that it was quite
1 common for weapons of any kind that were left lying
2 around after trouble to be collected up and cleared
3 away?
4 A. What I told the Tribunal on that occasion was
5 that -- it had been put to me in fact was not I aware
6 that this happened. I said that at the time I,
7 personally, had no experience of this happening,
8 although it was in fact --
9 Q. In fairness to you, I do not mean any
10 rudeness to the man who asked it who was very
11 distinguished, the question may not have been the
12 clearest. Perhaps you ought to clear it up for this
13 Tribunal. We have a transcript of it at M38.17, the
14 fault certainly was not yours. At the very top five
15 lines, the question that was actually asked of you was:
16 "Question: Also you know that one of the
17 features of the disturbance is that when people who
18 have either nail bombs or weapons of some kind are hit
19 by the troops, the first thing they are told to do is
20 to take their weapons away from them?", and you said
21 "yes"?
22 A. Yes, that was, you know, generally
23 understood.
24 Q. In your own words, without putting it to you
25 in that way or the other, what were you intending to
1 say; what did you understand was the general pattern?
2 A. The general pattern, it was put to me was not
3 I aware that this in fact was the case and my reply,
4 I think, what I intended to convey actually to the
5 Tribunal on that occasion was that this was generally
6 said and it was generally believed, but that I had
7 personally no experience of it myself.
8 Q. You personally had not seen it; your
9 experience was just of hearing it said by other people?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. While we are on the page, the very last
12 matter, sir, where we have it there, if we can go down
13 to below C and D, you were asked about your experience
14 as a local newspaper man of the risks you believed were
15 associated with the march, and your answer was you
16 personally thought there was a certain element of
17 danger in the march as such; that was your personal
18 position, was it?
19 A. Yes. My personal position was that, as with
20 other marches, inevitably a young group would join it
21 and that they would possibly stone the soldiers or
22 something like that.
23 Q. What you had in mind was the danger of
24 rioting of the kind that you saw?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. And you had heard nothing as an experienced,
2 local newspaper man living and working here, you had
3 heard nothing unusual one way or the other about the
4 march on Bloody Sunday that led you to believe that it
5 would be any more violent or less violent than other
6 marches you had covered?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MR ROXBURGH: Sir, I have no further
10 questions.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Haslett, it is the Chairman
12 again: thank you very much indeed for coming here to
13 assist this Inquiry.
14 A. Thank you, sir.
15 (The witness withdrew)
16 MR SEAMUS DOHERTY, sworn
17 Questioned by MR RAWAT
18 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Doherty, I can see you
19 looking at me. I do say this to all the witnesses, so
20 I will say it to you: I am the Chairman. The questions
21 come from the barristers in front of me. Do remember,
22 please, keep close to that microphone so we can all
23 hear what you have to say.
24 MR RAWAT: Mr Doherty, do you have with you a
25 copy of your statement to this Inquiry?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
3 the best of your knowledge and belief?
4 A. Yes, they are.
5 Q. We have all had the chance to read your
6 statement and I just want to ask you questions about
7 some parts of it. If we could, first of all, put up
8 your map which is at AD102.4, just to summarise the
9 first part of your statement.
10 You describe in the statement you have made
11 standing at point "A" and that was when you first
12 heard shooting, and you say that by that time the march
13 had already ended and you could see people walking home
14 up Little Diamond. What you did then was to make your
15 way south reaching the point "D" in Lisfannon Park and
16 then you took the route that you have marked with the
17 line on the map to a point which you have marked with
18 the letter "F", that is between the two western blocks
19 of Glenfada Park North and Glenfada Park South.
20 You say also in your statement that on the
21 way you came upon the body of Gerard McKinney and you
22 have marked the position of Mr McKinney's body with the
23 letter "E", and you also mention seeing Joe Mahon on
24 the ground and you have put the position at the
25 letter "G".
1 We will come back to that in a moment, but
2 I want to ask you, first of all, questions in relation
3 to the route you took from Lisfannon Park to point "F"
4 because, as we can see, you walked up the walk or
5 parade that runs between Abbey Park and Glenfada Park.
6 As you took that route, did you see any soldiers at
7 all?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You walked up that walk towards point "F",
10 were there people in Abbey Park?
11 A. What do you mean Abbey Park? That is behind
12 --
13 Q. Do you see the blue arrow I have marked?
14 Along that line, it is a walk: could you see people
15 standing around?
16 A. At point "F" there was people standing
17 around, aye.
18 Q. Were any standing along the line of the blue
19 arrow?
20 A. Oh, aye, in that, there was, aye.
21 Q. In that general area?
22 A. Aye.
23 Q. As you walked along towards point "F" were
24 you conscious of hearing rubber bullets, for example?
25 A. No, not really. All I could hear was
1 shooting.
2 Q. So as you were walking along you could hear
3 gunfire?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. And could you say where it was coming from?
6 A. No, I mean, you would just take it was coming
7 from Glenfada Park.
8 Q. Can we now go, please, to AD102.2 and
9 highlight paragraphs 7 and 8? You say in paragraph 7
10 that you did not see anything in particular when you
11 ran across to Glenfada Park South:
12 "I was tucked in behind the gable end wall at
13 point F."
14 What you go on in paragraph 8 to deal with is
15 this:
16 "On my route over to point F, I saw the body
17 of Gerard McKinney lying at point 'E' which was on the
18 east side of Abbey Park and to my left as I went round
19 to point F."
20 You go on to say in that paragraph that you
21 remember there were some people giving Gerard McKinney
22 heart massage, they must have thought he had had a
23 heart attack. You cannot remember how many people were
24 standing around him or what they looked like, nor,
25 indeed, what Mr McKinney was wearing, but you do
1 remember that he was lying flat on his back on the
2 ground and he was lying on paving stones, and you
3 vaguely remember some steps near him.
4 You cannot remember which direction his head
5 was facing in relation to you; is that still the case,
6 you cannot remember?
7 A. That is still the case, aye.
8 Q. What you can say with certainty about
9 Gerard McKinney was that people were giving him heart
10 massage.
11 Did you know Gerard McKinney before
12 Bloody Sunday?
13 A. No.
14 Q. When did you find out that the man you saw
15 was Gerard McKinney?
16 A. I found out in press reports afterwards.
17 Q. So very shortly after Bloody Sunday?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Could we, please, put up hotspot 39: this is
20 a virtual reality programme that shows the Bogside.
21 What we have at the moment is the Bogside as it is, at
22 least in 1998. We are looking down now towards
23 Fahan Street West, so this would have been the route
24 you would have taken to come up to Glenfada Park.
25 This is the area between the two blocks of
1 Glenfada Park, so we have the western block of
2 Glenfada Park North on the left as you are looking at
3 it, and that would have been roughly where point "F"
4 was. I will try in a moment to pinpoint exactly where
5 you were standing, but looking there you can see
6 cobblestones and then some steps. Would that be
7 roughly where you saw Gerard McKinney?
8 A. Roughly round there, yeah.
9 Q. As you were walking -- you walked past his
10 body and turned in towards point F, is that right, or
11 you did not come over and look at --
12 A. No, I did not get near his body --
13 Q. I may have confused you with my question: did
14 you actually go over to the body of Gerard McKinney?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. Were you aware of any other bodies near to
17 where he was lying?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What we can see are these low walls in front
20 of the two blocks of Glenfada Park. If we swing a
21 little bit more you can see this low wall which runs
22 the length of the western block of Glenfada Park South.
23 As you were walking up towards point "F",
24 were you aware of people sheltering behind those low
25 walls?
1 A. Not really.
2 Q. Could I now have, please, hotspot 25? What
3 I would like to do is try and pinpoint exactly where
4 you were standing in the alleyway. To try and help
5 you, we are looking at Abbey Park and you can see the
6 Stardust Hall in the background, and those two low
7 walls I pointed out to you a moment ago. If I swing to
8 the left what you have here is an entrance that would
9 lead you into Glenfada Park South.
10 Here we are looking at the entrance that
11 would take us into Glenfada Park North, to the car
12 park. You say you were tucked in behind the gable end
13 wall at point "F"; can we see the wall?
14 A. You see, I was in that general area here, so
15 I could have been standing against that wall for
16 a while to the right-hand side where "Brads" is marked
17 there.
18 Q. Are you saying you are not sure on which side
19 --
20 A. No, I mean I was moving about, you know what
21 I mean, everybody was milling about there, you know,
22 they were not just standing in one position all the
23 time.
24 Q. You could see clearly into the car park?
25 A. That is, from that point I could, aye.
1 Q. If we remember where you put Joe Mahon, you
2 must have been presumably standing at a point where you
3 could see quite far into the car park?
4 A. You see, when he was shot he was brought out
5 of that area.
6 Q. He was brought out of the area?
7 A. That is where I seen him, aye.
8 Q. Let us go on to that in a moment, then. What
9 you cannot say is exactly against which wall you were
10 standing?
11 A. No, no, just --
12 Q. Just in this general area?
13 A. That is it, general area.
14 Q. As you were sheltering in this general area,
15 could you still hear gunfire?
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. Did you have any idea of where it was coming
18 from?
19 A. No, I just heard gunfire. It was taken for
20 granted it was coming from somewhere in Glenfada Park.
21 Q. How much gunfire was there?
22 A. I would say it would be coming to the tail
23 end of the shooting, so very little.
24 Q. Just the odd shot?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were there a lot of other people sheltering
2 in this area with you as well?
3 A. Yeah, there were people round there, yes.
4 Q. Did people speak of soldiers being in the car
5 park of Glenfada Park North?
6 A. No, I never spoke to anybody, to be honest.
7 Q. Did anybody warn you not to go further out?
8 A. No, I just knew not to go out there because
9 there was something seriously happening.
10 Q. Can we now, please, put up AD102.2,
11 paragraphs 9 to 10: you say in paragraph 9 that when
12 you were standing at point "F" you:
13 "... took a look diagonally across
14 Glenfada Park North and saw Joe Mahon lying at
15 point 'G' which was east of where I was standing."
16 I showed you at the beginning your map where
17 you could see you have marked point "G". If you want
18 to look at it again, please ask. You say:
19 "When I first saw Joe Mahon he was at
20 point 'G', but I cannot remember whether he had
21 crawled there or not. I do not remember seeing anyone
22 else who was lying on the ground in
23 Glenfada Park North ... I knew that it was Joe because
24 I knew him well."
25 When you saw Joe Mahon he was in
1 Glenfada Park North?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. How was he lying on the ground?
4 A. I cannot remember was he lying or was he
5 sitting up, you know.
6 Q. But you are quite clear -- the one vivid
7 memory you have is that it was Joe Mahon you saw?
8 A. He was shot, yeah.
9 Q. Can I show you P428, please: this is a
10 photograph taken on Bloody Sunday, but probably taken
11 at an earlier time. What we can see there is the
12 southwest entrance and exit from Glenfada Park North.
13 If one walked through that, you would get to
14 Abbey Park. So that is the area where you would have
15 been standing sheltering?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. You can see the pavement running along here.
18 That is the side of Glenfada Park North where you say
19 you saw Joe Mahon. We can also see the fencing around
20 the gardens of the houses on this side of
21 Glenfada Park North. Looking at that photograph can
22 you remember whether Joe Mahon was on the pavement or
23 on the tarmac of the car park?
24 A. I would not be definite.
25 Q. So you are not sure and you do not feel sure
1 or able to say?
2 A. I am not able to say.
3 Q. Do you have any idea whether he was close to
4 the fencing that we can see?
5 A. I would not be able to say.
6 Q. Let us go back again to paragraphs 9 and 10:
7 you obviously knew Joe Mahon and you say you knew him
8 we will. When you saw him, was he moving at all, can
9 you remember?
10 A. Oh, he was moving, yeah, there were people
11 helping him.
12 Q. There were people helping him?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. How many people were helping him?
15 A. I could not say, I would not be definite,
16 either one or two.
17 Q. So at that time when you first saw Joe Mahon
18 there were people actually in Glenfada Park --
19 A. No, no, no, I seen him getting helped at the
20 entrance into Glenfada Park, that is where I ...
21 Q. What were these people doing with Joe Mahon?
22 A. They were helping him out, out of the danger
23 area.
24 Q. Carrying him towards you?
25 A. Carrying him that direction, aye.
1 Q. And is it the case that you saw him when he
2 was very close to you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was it only at that time that you recognised
5 it was Joe Mahon?
6 A. That is right, aye, that is the only time
7 I recognised him.
8 Q. Presumably, he would have been carried into
9 the alleyway?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. Very close to where you were sheltering?
12 A. Very close.
13 Q. Can I show you now P439: this is a
14 photograph, again taken on Bloody Sunday. It is taken
15 through the northwest entrance into
16 Glenfada Park North, so the area where you would have
17 been sheltering would have been around here. What we
18 can see are the bodies of three men: one who is on the
19 pavement and one who appears to be at least half on the
20 pavement and half on the tarmac, and then the third
21 person with his legs there.
22 The person whose legs we can see would have
23 been very close to the alleyway where you were
24 sheltering, but when you were sheltering in that
25 alleyway, you have no recollection of looking out and
1 seeing any bodies?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any recollection of the time that
4 you saw Joe Mahon being carried, of others being
5 carried through that alleyway?
6 A. No, I did not see anybody else.
7 Q. At any time when you were looking out into
8 the alleyway, did you see a soldier or soldiers come
9 anywhere near the alleyway where you were sheltering?
10 A. No, I never seen any.
11 Q. Again, if we go back now to paragraph 10, you
12 go on after you deal in your statement with seeing
13 Joe Mahon, and you say that when you were at point "F"
14 Eibhlin Lafferty had been standing in front of you.
15 Did you know Eibhlin Lafferty at the time?
16 A. Yeah, I knew her to see.
17 Q. Was she there when you arrived at point "F"
18 or did she come into the alleyway after you had got
19 there?
20 A. I just take it she was there before
21 I arrived.
22 Q. Is it your recollection that you saw her
23 after you had seen Joe Mahon?
24 A. She -- when we were standing at that entrance
25 there was a lot of people milling about, so I was not
1 taking details of who was there or what really was
2 happening, it was a total chaos, so I do not know
3 whether she was there before he was shot or afterwards.
4 Q. I appreciate what you are saying, but I would
5 very much like your help just to try and get the
6 sequence, and particularly the sequence of what is your
7 recollection.
8 What you have told us is that you see
9 Joe Mahon?
10 A. That is right, I remember him getting shot,
11 yeah.
12 Q. Then in paragraph 10 you say you see
13 Eibhlin Lafferty?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. Do you think, thinking about it, that you saw
16 Joe Mahon before seeing Eibhlin Lafferty or afterwards?
17 A. I cannot say.
18 Q. Can we put your map up, please, AD102.4:
19 what we have is you are standing at point "F" and your
20 present recollection is that the first time you saw
21 Joe Mahon, he was being carried towards you and was
22 very close to where you were standing at point "F"?
23 A. That is right, yeah.
24 Q. What you say in paragraph 10 is
25 Eibhlin Lafferty ran out from point "F" in the
1 direction of Abbey Park:
2 "I remember thinking she was trying to go and
3 try to help Joe Mahon."
4 Are you sure in your recollection she ran
5 towards Abbey Park?
6 A. No, no, she went out into the area of
7 Glenfada Park. Now, she did not run out into the park
8 itself, she just moved slightly forward of point "F".
9 Q. In towards Glenfada Park North?
10 A. She did not run out into the -- you know what
11 I mean.
12 Q. The reason I ask, reading the statement you
13 have given it would seem to suggest what you were
14 saying was that Eibhlin Lafferty had gone in that
15 direction?
16 A. No, no, no.
17 Q. As I understand what you are saying today, is
18 she moved in this direction?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Let us go back, please, to paragraphs 10 down
21 to 11. We go on to see what you say about
22 Eibhlin Lafferty: she ran out, but you say you do not
23 think now or it is unclear whether she did run out. Do
24 you have a memory of her running out into
25 Glenfada Park North?
1 A. She, she did not run out into Glenfada Park
2 into the middle of the road or into the park, as you
3 are calling it. She mighta went round the corner
4 slightly to see if anybody needed help.
5 Q. She did not get very far from where you were
6 standing?
7 A. No, nobody was going to go out that far
8 because there was still shooting.
9 Q. Do you recall if anyone tried to stop her
10 from moving out?
11 A. There could have been. You see, there were a
12 lot of people there, you know, it was probably a safe
13 area to be in at the time.
14 Q. Can you remember if anybody else moved out
15 with her?
16 A. I cannot remember, no.
17 Q. We can see in paragraph 11 you say that you
18 saw one Paratrooper and you marked him at point "H",
19 that is the corner of Glenfada Park North diagonally
20 opposite to where you were. When Eibhlin Lafferty
21 moved out, would you have had that corner in view?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What you go on to say -- it is going back to
24 paragraph 10 -- as she moved out, she shouted something
25 like "stop that", which I understood meant for the
1 soldiers to stop shooting?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. At the time your recollection is there was
4 still shooting going on?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Again, was it still the odd shot?
7 A. Odd shot (inaudible).
8 Q. You go on to say:
9 "I remember that she was dressed as a Knight
10 of Malta, but I do not remember anything else about
11 what she looked like."
12 Do you recall whether she was carrying
13 anything?
14 A. No, not really.
15 Q. Then you say:
16 "I then heard possibly one or two shots fired
17 and she ran back into where I was."
18 Is that a clear memory for you?
19 A. Yeah, it is, aye.
20 Q. It was either one or two shots?
21 A. One or two, yeah.
22 Q. Did you have any idea where those shots had
23 come from?
24 A. No, that is what I said earlier, it looked
25 like it was coming from the other end of Glenfada Park.
1 Q. Did you see them strike at all?
2 A. No, I never seen any.
3 Q. When Eibhlin Lafferty went out you say she
4 shouted something like "stop that". Did you hear any
5 voices shout anything back in response; did you hear
6 any soldiers shout back at her?
7 A. Never heard nothing.
8 Q. So you did not hear any, if you like,
9 non-Northern Irish voices?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Eibhlin Lafferty, or Eibhlin Mahon as she now
12 is, gave evidence this morning to the Inquiry. Her
13 evidence is that she did go out from the alleyway and
14 she was pulled back by someone, and then she went out
15 again, and the purpose of her going out was to go out
16 to the three bodies that I showed you in that earlier
17 photograph.
18 That would suggest that you must have seen
19 her before seeing Joe Mahon; would you accept that?
20 A. More than likely, yeah.
21 Q. If we go on now to paragraph 11, you say:
22 "After I had been standing at point 'F' for
23 I think about five minutes, I saw one Paratrooper at
24 point 'H' ... from where I was standing I could only
25 really see over to that corner. He was the only
1 soldier I saw while I was standing at point F."
2 I wonder if you could help us with timing:
3 do you think you saw this Paratrooper after you had
4 seen Eibhlin Lafferty and Joe Mahon?
5 A. Aye, it was after the shooting died down.
6 Q. You go on to say you remember the Paratrooper
7 was wearing a combat jacket, but you do not remember
8 anything else about what he looked like:
9 "He just looked like a soldier to me. He had
10 his back to me and seemed to be going out of the exit
11 of Glenfada Park North which was near to him"; that
12 would be the exit you marked at point "H"?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. When you saw that soldier he had his back to
15 you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us anything else about him; was
18 he standing when you saw him?
19 A. He was standing.
20 Q. And he was walking away?
21 A. Walking out, aye.
22 Q. Could you tell how tall or short he was?
23 A. He was tall enough, he must have been six
24 foot maybe.
25 Q. Do you have any idea of whether he had
1 anything on his head?
2 A. A helmet, probably just a normal ...
3 Q. Did you see him with a weapon?
4 A. Never noticed. Sure, if he had his back to
5 me he probably had his weapon in front of him, you
6 know.
7 Q. Mr Doherty, those are my questions.
8 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
9 MR CLARKE: Mr Doherty, my name is Clarke and
10 I appear on behalf of a number of the soldiers.
11 As you were standing at that gap, do you
12 remember anyone shouting out to anyone standing near
13 you for a white coat to put on to go out there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember who I mean when I mention
16 Leo Day, the Knight of Malta?
17 A. Do I know him?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. No.
20 Q. You did not know who the man was at that
21 time?
22 A. I do not remember him.
23 Q. Do you remember hearing what any of the
24 soldiers said in the car park while this was all
25 happening?
1 A. Anything the soldiers said?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I would not'a heard the soldiers saying
4 anything.
5 Q. You would not have heard it, were they too
6 far away?
7 A. The part I was in, part "F", there were walls
8 there, you would not have heard them.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Rawat, do you have any
10 further questions?
11 MR RAWAT: I have no further questions, sir.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Doherty, thank you very
13 much indeed for coming here to help the Inquiry, thank
14 you.
15 (The witness withdrew)
16 MR LEO REDMOND GALLAGHER, sworn.
17 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
18 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Gallagher, if you look to
19 your right you can see who is talking to you. I say
20 this to all the witnesses: I am the Chairman. The
21 questions will come from the barristers in front of
22 me. Could you, please, keep in front of that
23 microphone so we can hear what you have to say?
24 MS McGAHEY: Mr Gallagher, do you have with
25 you a copy of the statement you made to this Inquiry
1 and signed on 24th May 1999?
2 A. I have.
3 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
4 the best of your knowledge and belief?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Everybody here has had a chance to read your
7 statement, so I will only ask you about parts of it.
8 I would like to turn first, please, to
9 paragraph 3 which is on the screen in front of you at
10 the moment. You tell us in that paragraph that while
11 you were at Creggan field preparing for the march to
12 set off, somebody organising the march gave you an
13 armband and elected you as one of the stewards.
14 Do you know who it was who chose you as a
15 steward?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember what instructions you were
18 given?
19 A. I cannot remember, no.
20 Q. Do you remember whether other people were
21 chosen as stewards at the same time?
22 A. Yeah, there were other people chosen.
23 Q. Do you remember being told what the route was
24 the march was going to follow?
25 A. No, I do not remember.
1 Q. Could we go on, please, to paragraph 6: you
2 describe there the situation when the march reached the
3 junction with Rossville Street, some of the crowd
4 continued to the eastern part of William Street towards
5 barrier 14. The stewards were instructed to go down to
6 the eastern part of William Street as well. You say
7 you cannot remember how the message was passed to you,
8 whether by megaphone or word of mouth.
9 Do you remember, though, what you were
10 instructed to do at the east end of William Street?
11 A. I cannot recall being given any specific
12 instructions, but I presumed that we were to go there
13 to try and restrain the young people that were
14 gathering down there.
15 Q. Could we go over the page, please, to
16 paragraphs 8 to 10? In paragraph 8 you say:
17 "The organisers wanted to avoid confrontation
18 so the stewards were instructed to join arms to hold
19 the crowd back from the barrier. It may have been a
20 head steward who shouted that we should join arms ...".
21 Did you know who that head steward was?
22 A. No, I cannot remember.
23 Q. Going on at paragraph 10 you say:
24 "The stewards in the line were facing away
25 from the crowd, towards the barrier as it is easier to
1 hold a line if you can push with your back."
2 The photographs we have and the film footage
3 we have seen seem to suggest that the stewards are in
4 fact facing the crowd, linking arms and facing away
5 from the barrier; do you think you might be wrong in
6 your recollection?
7 A. I think, initially, we did face the crowd,
8 but as the crowd got bigger and started to push
9 forward, we turned around and we were pushing back
10 against the crowd.
11 Q. Did you, at any time as a steward tell, the
12 marchers to hold their ground and not to back off from
13 barrier 14?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you hear any other steward give that
16 instruction?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Could we go on, please, to paragraphs 12
19 to 13: you tell us that after the water cannon came out
20 you decided you would not stay, and you took off your
21 armband and went down Chamberlain Street.
22 In paragraph 12, you cut down Eden Place to
23 the wasteground to the west of Chamberlain Street;
24 nothing out of the ordinary on the wasteground and not
25 many people there.
1 At paragraph 13 you say that you think there
2 were soldiers on the wasteground at the point
3 marked "A". The point marked "A" is the area north of
4 the junction between William Street and
5 Rossville Street.
6 Could we have a look at your map, please, on
7 AG25.7? If your evidence has been correctly recorded
8 you are telling us that you were somewhere in the
9 region of Eden Place, which I have marked with the blue
10 arrow?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you see soldiers at the area marked "A",
13 near Prince Arthur Street; is that right?
14 A. Yes, but it was probably further along
15 Eden Place, nearer Kells Walk.
16 Q. By this stage you had moved out into
17 Rossville Street?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So that you could see up towards
20 Prince Arthur Street and the wasteground there.
21 Do you remember how many soldiers there were?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you remember seeing them behind a barrier
24 or simply deployed in that area?
25 A. I cannot recall. I do not think there was a
1 lot of soldiers in that area.
2 Q. You have told us that there was
3 stone-throwing from William Street towards them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it your recollection that there was a
6 number of people throwing missiles at soldiers who were
7 out in the open on that wasteground?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I would like to show you a picture to see if
10 it brings back any further recollections of this; could
11 we have photograph P352, please? This photograph is
12 taken from the northeast looking at William Street
13 which runs in the direction of my arrow, running up
14 towards St Eugene's cathedral, Rossville Street is then
15 to the left, Little James Street to the right and
16 Prince Arthur Street in the area I have marked with the
17 green arrow.
18 Looking at that wasteground now and that
19 picture, is it your recollection that there were
20 soldiers there and people in the crowd throwing
21 missiles at them?
22 A. No, not at that stage, no.
23 Q. So where do you think the soldiers were?
24 A. Well, they were in the vicinity, in this
25 area, I believe.
1 Q. If the arrows I have marked could be taken
2 away, please, and Mr Gallagher given control. If you
3 touch the screen an arrow should appear?
4 A. (Indicating) yes, I think it is in that area.
5 Q. That is roughly the area you have marked with
6 an "A" on the map?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were those soldiers armed with anything?
9 A. They were armed, but certainly I cannot
10 remember what with, whether they were with batons and
11 shields or with firearms, I cannot recall.
12 Q. Do you remember them firing rubber bullets?
13 A. No, I cannot remember them firing.
14 Q. Did they take any action at all against the
15 people who were throwing stones at them?
16 A. Not that I could see.
17 Q. Could we go back to your map, please, at
18 AG25.7? You tell us in your statement that while you
19 were in the Eden Place area, moving across to
20 Kells Walk, you had been told somebody had been shot in
21 the Columbcille Court area and you therefore went to
22 the point marked "B" on the map. There was a crowd
23 there. Nothing happened. There was no panic and from
24 then you decided to go to Free Derry Corner and you
25 took a route that you cannot quite remember -- it is
1 one of the two marked on the map -- to reach
2 point "C", that is the southwest corner of
3 Glenfada Park North where it meets Abbey Park and
4 Glenfada Park South.
5 You tell us that when you reached that point
6 you heard shooting. You did not know at the time that
7 it was live fire, but you knew it was a sharp sound,
8 different from rubber bullets and CS gas guns. You
9 heard three or four shots in quick succession, like
10 automatic fire, and had the impression that shots were
11 coming from the city walls.
12 Could you see the walls from where you were?
13 A. No, but on reflection actually, I think I was
14 further -- on the other side of Glenfada Park South
15 after looking at some photographs, I had actually come
16 through there.
17 Q. When you say you were on the far side, does
18 that mean you were at the point marked as "D"?
19 A. Yes, in that area, yes.
20 Q. You have gone right the way through to the
21 corner?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And from there, it is right you would have
24 been able to see the walls, would you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When you heard that firing, what was it that
2 made you think it was coming from the walls?
3 A. Just a general impression.
4 Q. Could you tell the difference at that time
5 between high velocity rifle fire and other types of
6 live gunfire?
7 A. Not really, no.
8 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
9 to paragraph 16, which is on AG23.3: this is the
10 passage I have just been quoting to you. You went on
11 in that paragraph:
12 "My first thought was that the IRA had opened
13 fire which I thought was a silly thing to do with so
14 many people about. I thought it was the IRA because at
15 that time when rioting took place at Lower Road or the
16 junction of Little James Street and Sackville Street,
17 the IRA would sometimes take a shot at the army.
18 Somebody said 'The army are shooting'."
19 Did you have any reason, any particular
20 reason to think that the IRA might open fire that
21 afternoon?
22 A. No, I had no particular reason to think that.
23 Q. Had you been present when the IRA had opened
24 fire on the Security Forces?
25 A. No, not personally, no, but I had a brother
1 who was involved when the army were shot at by the IRA;
2 he was behind the army and was wounded in the leg at
3 that time.
4 Q. He was behind the army?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So he was not taking part in --
7 A. Oh, no.
8 Q. Was he wounded in the leg by a civilian
9 gunshot?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Had that shot been fired in the course of a
12 riot?
13 A. It had, yes.
14 Q. Do you know any more about the circumstances
15 in which that happened?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you aware of gunmen using the crowd in
18 a riot as cover?
19 A. I was aware that that was a tactic at the
20 time, yes, that ...
21 Q. Were you aware of crowds colluding with
22 gunmen, taking instructions from them to separate so
23 that a shot could be fired?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Which of your brothers was it who was
1 involved in the shot?
2 A. It was my, my younger brother. Do you want
3 his name?
4 Q. When your brother Eamonn gave evidence some
5 time ago --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- he named all the brothers in the family.
8 The very youngest is Jackie, I believe?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was it Jackie?
11 A. It was Jackie, but he is not the youngest.
12 Q. But he is not the youngest?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Had Jackie been injured before Bloody Sunday?
15 A. I cannot recall, I cannot recall whether that
16 was before or after.
17 Q. So when you say in your statement that you
18 thought the IRA must have opened fire because they had
19 done so in the past, can you now recollect any specific
20 incident before Bloody Sunday in which this had
21 happened?
22 A. I cannot recollect any, no.
23 Q. When your brother Eamonn gave evidence he
24 said he thought that Jackie was probably too young on
25 Bloody Sunday to have taken part in the march; does
1 that help you to remember whether the incident when he
2 was shot was before or after Bloody Sunday?
3 A. Well, he was very young when he was shot, he
4 was at school, a young schoolboy. I cannot recall.
5 Q. Would you have been able to identify the
6 sound of IRA gunfire?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Could we go on, please, to paragraphs 18
9 to 19: you tell us that after hearing the shooting you
10 quickened your pace. The shooting intensified. There
11 were quite a lot of shots. You continued to walk to
12 point "D". In fact now you think you had probably
13 already reached there by the time you heard the
14 shooting.
15 You cannot recall large numbers of people,
16 but maybe a dozen or more, and the first shot sounded
17 like one person firing:
18 "... but by the time I reached point 'D' the
19 shots sounded like lots of people firing. The sound
20 was the same but there was more of it."
21 Did all the shots appear to come from the
22 same direction?
23 A. I got that impression, yes.
24 Q. At paragraph 19 you say at the bottom of that
25 paragraph:
1 "I did not know where the shooting was coming
2 from, but I presumed at first from the city walls."
3 What made you presume it was from the walls?
4 A. It was coming from behind me. I was walking
5 towards, or I was running towards some of the houses in
6 Lisfannon Park, so it was coming from behind me and,
7 but it could have been -- yeah, I got the impression it
8 was coming from a high level.
9 Q. Did you see any activity up on the walls?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you look up towards the walls?
12 A. I did, yes.
13 Q. You have told us that at this point you were
14 with your brother Eamonn?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You stayed with him all the time until this
17 point?
18 A. Yes, as far as I can recall, yes.
19 Q. There was a lull in the shooting that allowed
20 you to cross to Lisfannon Park and you tell us that you
21 crossed the road and went into a house.
22 Could we go over the page, please, to
23 paragraphs 22 to 23: you describe in paragraph 22 a
24 man with a cine camera leaning against the wall of the
25 building at point "E". We can see on your map where
1 point "E" is, between two blocks of houses in
2 Lisfannon Park?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He had a cine camera pointing round the
5 corner towards the Derry Walls. You cannot describe
6 him except to say he was in his mid 30s or 40s and you
7 told him he was in danger because a soldier might take
8 it for a gun and shoot at him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were there any shots fired in your direction
11 as you were in that area?
12 A. No.
13 Q. In paragraph 23 you say that one person said
14 that someone had been shot to the northeast of
15 Glenfada Park. You decided to cross Fahan Street West
16 again to see what was going on and at that point you
17 became separated from Eamonn.
18 When Eamonn gave evidence he said that at
19 some point during the afternoon he saw one of his
20 brothers, he thought either you or Roy, with a man with
21 a camera.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the man with the camera was
24 William McKinney; did you know William McKinney?
25 A. I had known him to see, yes, he worked with
1 my brother.
2 Q. Were you, at any stage, with William
3 McKinney?
4 A. Not that I recall, no.
5 Q. Eamonn's recollection was of seeing
6 William McKinney with either you or Roy at the rubble
7 barricade?
8 A. It probably would have been my older brother,
9 they worked together.
10 Q. Do you remember being anywhere near the
11 rubble barricade at any time?
12 A. No, I was not.
13 Q. In paragraph 24 you tell us that you crossed
14 over Fahan Street West with your hands up. Did you
15 have any reason to think there would be shooting along
16 Fahan Street West?
17 A. Yes, because I had presumed that the
18 shooting, or some of it at least, had come from the
19 city walls and by crossing that street, I was in full
20 view.
21 Q. Could we go on, please, to paragraphs 26
22 to 28: you tell us that you hid at the corner of
23 Glenfada Park South and, after a number of minutes,
24 some people, including a nurse, crossed over and you
25 followed the nurse and saw her working on someone who
1 was lying on the ground.
2 In paragraph 27 you say that you are not
3 quite sure where the person on the ground was. Before
4 we get to him, did you recognise the nurse?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know a lady called Eibhlin Lafferty,
7 now Eibhlin Mahon?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I would like to ask you to look at some
10 photographs to see if it will help you to locate the
11 person that you believe you saw, the person you saw on
12 the ground. Could we have virtual reality hotspot 39,
13 please: this is taken from the north end of
14 Abbey Park. We are looking straight across at the
15 moment to the western block of Glenfada Park North. If
16 I scroll round you see there the alleyway into
17 Glenfada Park North. This is now the western block of
18 Glenfada Park South. If I continue, you can see at the
19 bottom of the picture Fahan Street West, the Old Bog
20 Road, Lisfannon Park beyond it and then the eastern
21 block of Abbey Park itself.
22 Looking at that, if I continue to scroll
23 round so you see the whole picture, we can see the
24 Stardust Ballroom and that brings you back full circle:
25 does that give you any help at all in locating the
1 place where you saw the man on the ground?
2 A. Not really. I get the impression there was,
3 in an alleyway between the blocks, and there was either
4 concrete steps or stairs in the vicinity.
5 Q. When you say he was in an alleyway between
6 the blocks, do you mean an alleyway of the sort we are
7 seeing here, which is the one into Glenfada Park North
8 or --
9 A. No.
10 Q. A wider one. We have, for example, this
11 area, which I think has been described as the parade;
12 it seems rather wide for an alleyway?
13 A. No, it certainly was not here.
14 Q. It was not in this area at all?
15 A. No. If you stop there, I think at the far
16 end round that corner, I get ...
17 Q. Could this image be saved, please, that will
18 allow you then, Mr Gallagher, to mark the picture? If
19 you now mark the screen to show us where you think that
20 man was lying, an arrow should appear on the screen.
21 A. I think it was around this corner round here
22 (marked with a purple arrow).
23 Q. That is the northwest corner of
24 Glenfada Park North and you can see Columbcille Court
25 behind the arrow?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that where you think the person was?
3 A. (Pause) I believe it was, looking at the
4 map, the Glenfada Park North, it was -- I can show you
5 if you bring that one up -- I can possibly point it out
6 to you on the map.
7 Q. Could we have AG25.7, please?
8 A. Can I point on this map?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. In and around this area here (marked with
11 blue arrows).
12 Q. Close to the area you have marked "J"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You believe, looking at that, he was there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I would like to show you one other photograph
17 to see whether that will help; could we have EP21.2,
18 please? The route you took is the one I am marking now
19 with a blue arrow, and you believe you saw a man lying
20 somewhere in the area I have put the yellow arrow; is
21 that right?
22 A. Yeah, but it could have been further on. Can
23 you expand across, no?
24 Q. When you say "further on", do you mean to the
25 right of this picture?
1 A. To the right of the picture, yes.
2 Q. I do not know how much more of the right of
3 the picture exists. Could we have any more of the
4 picture that does exist?
5 A. I think it was in that area, as far as I can
6 recall.
7 Q. Could we save that image as AG25.12, please?
8 When that has been done could we go back to your
9 statement, please, at AG25.4, paragraph 28? You
10 describe the man on the ground as lying on his back
11 wearing a heavy overcoat buttoned up:
12 "His head was to the northwest, his feet to
13 the southeast, wearing a shirt and tie and a scarf. He
14 was a middle-aged man who was quite well-dressed. He
15 was he looked quite calm. I think he was lying on
16 concrete paving slabs on a flat paved area. His hands
17 were by his side."
18 Could we go over the page, please, paragraphs
19 29 to 31: you say there was a nurse and a first aid
20 worker with him. In paragraph 30 the nurse was female,
21 wearing a white uniform. At the bottom you say:
22 "She could have been a member of the
23 Saint John's Ambulance Corps, which I think was
24 different to the Knights of Malta."
25 What was it made you think she was a member
1 of St John's Ambulance?
2 A. I think because she appeared to have a white
3 uniform; that is an impression I get, I could be wrong.
4 Q. It was for that reason you thought she was a
5 Saint John's Ambulance worker?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that because you expected the Knights of
8 Malta to wear a different colour?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What colour would you expect them to wear?
11 A. A blue.
12 Q. You describe her as being in her late teens
13 and early 20s, about five feet tall and slim. Any idea
14 of the colour of her hair?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Or the style of her hair?
17 A. No.
18 Q. "The other first aid person was male, about
19 five feet five, in his late teens/early 20s. He also
20 seemed to be a member of St John's Ambulance."
21 Again, what was it about him that made you
22 think he was a member of St John's Ambulance?
23 A. I do not know.
24 Q. Could we go on in your statement, please,
25 paragraph 32: you tell us that you believe the man you
1 saw was Gerard McKinney as his daughter showed you
2 photographs of her father, and you recognised him. You
3 say then you have been shown a photograph of
4 Gerard McKinney attached to your statement and you do
5 not recognise him.
6 When you saw the photographs shown by
7 Mr McKinney's daughter, were you certain that was the
8 man you had seen on the ground?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Attachment 3 does not appear to have survived
11 in the copies we have. I would like to show you one
12 other photograph, could we have P693, please: does
13 that bring back any recollections at all of the man you
14 saw on the ground?
15 A. Yes, it looks like him, yes.
16 Q. What is it about him that you recognise?
17 A. I think his age, he seemed to be quite
18 well-dressed.
19 Q. You have told us in your statement that you
20 do not recognise the very distinctive pullover that
21 Mr McKinney is wearing; that is correct today?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could we go back to your statement to the
24 Inquiry at AG25.5, paragraph 33: you say that you
25 moved away and saw somebody else being taken out of a
1 house in Abbey Park in the area that you have marked
2 as "L". We have seen where that is on your map:
3 "He was male, in his late teens and was being
4 carried by around four men in a chair fashion under his
5 legs and arms. He was about 10 yards away from me. He
6 seemed to be wearing a light-coloured scruffy suit.
7 The jacket was more of a casual jacket than a suit
8 jacket."
9 I would like to show you now a cine film clip
10 to see whether you recognise from that either of the
11 people that you saw, either the man on the ground or
12 the man being carried. You may or may not see them and
13 they may or may not be in positions that you saw them.
14 Could we have video 19, please, Mr Roger's
15 cine film?
16 (Film played)
17 Could you stop the film and go back a little,
18 please; does that person look at all familiar?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Is there anybody in the sequence that you
21 recognised?
22 A. Well, I recognised the, the elderly man lying
23 on the ground.
24 Q. Could we stop the film, please, and go back
25 to the first few seconds. We can see the man lying on
1 the ground being given mouth to mouth?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Is he the man you recognise?
4 A. Yes, I believe that is the man I seen, yes.
5 Q. He is the man you saw on the ground?
6 A. Yes, I believe so.
7 Q. Being attended by the first aid workers?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could we stop the video, please?
10 Finally, Mr Gallagher, I would like to ask
11 you about the statement you made in 1972. Could we
12 have AG25.11, please: you tell us in your statement to
13 this Inquiry that you recall making this statement but
14 you have made a number of corrections to it, or a
15 number of things you no longer recall.
16 We have all seen the comments you have made
17 upon it. I would like to ask you still about some of
18 it. You say there:
19 "... instructions were given that everyone
20 should move in the direction of Free Derry Corner.
21 I proceeded in the direction at a leisurely pace. When
22 I reached the burnout workman's hut at the bottom of
23 the Bogside, I met my brother."
24 I assume that must be Eamonn?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. "I saw a large number of people moving
2 towards Free Derry Corner and continued to follow the
3 crowd. I had hardly taken a step when I heard a shot
4 ring out."
5 Are you describing there the situation as you
6 walked down the west side of Glenfada Park North, down
7 towards the bottom end of Glenfada Park South?
8 A. Well, I believe I was actually further than
9 I had said in my statement and that I had actually been
10 on the other side of the Old Bog Road.
11 Q. You had actually reached Lisfannon Park?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you heard a shot?
14 A. When this happened, yeah, it appeared so.
15 Q. "The people who were moving in the direction
16 of Free Derry Corner started to run so I ran into an
17 alleyway in Lisfannon Park."
18 That perhaps suggests that you heard the shot
19 before you crossed to Lisfannon Park?
20 A. (Pause) No, I think I would have started
21 running when I heard the shooting.
22 Q. You go on:
23 "As I entered the alleyway, a fusillade of
24 shots rang out and this continued for about four
25 minutes. When the shooting stopped I looked out in the
1 direction of the High Flats and saw a body lying on the
2 ground at the corner of the main entrance."
3 Do you have any recollection at all of seeing
4 a body there?
5 A. No, I do not recall that, no.
6 Q. "At this time an hysterical woman came out of
7 the back door of a house into the alleyway and told us
8 there were two bodies lying opposite her house on the
9 other side of the road. I followed her through the
10 house and saw one body lying on steps in
11 Glenfada Park."
12 Do you have any recollection of seeing a body
13 in Glenfada Park itself?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know who it is that you think you are
16 referring to?
17 A. Well, the only body I seen was, I believe,
18 Gerard McKinney.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all the
20 questions I have.
21 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
22 MR CLARKE: Mr Gallagher, my name is
23 Peter Clarke. I appear on behalf of a number of the
24 soldiers. Just one issue, sir, if we could help by
25 perhaps dating it: you were born in 1949?
1 A. Correct, yes.
2 Q. And Jackie, do you remember his birth year?
3 A. I cannot recall, no.
4 Q. I never remember my younger brother's; do you
5 remember how much younger than you he is, then, if we
6 can try another way?
7 A. He is about 15 years younger than me.
8 Q. 15 years younger?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. So we are talking '64, 1964?
11 A. Yes, possibly.
12 Q. The next question, leading on, do you
13 remember at all what school he was at or what he was
14 doing at school at the time he was injured by soldiers?
15 A. He was at St Peter's School.
16 Q. Which would make him?
17 A. He would have been at secondary school. My
18 other brother taught in the school and they were
19 actually together when that incident happened.
20 Q. If he was in secondary school that would
21 actually put it after Bloody Sunday, would it not?
22 A. Probably, yes.
23 Q. But notwithstanding that, your fear about the
24 IRA firing first was based on experience you had prior
25 to Bloody Sunday, it must have been?
1 A. Yes. My parents lived in Francis Street,
2 which is quite close to an area at the top of
3 William Street. It had seen quite a lot of rioting and
4 I had observed ...
5 Q. You were asked whether the rioters were
6 orchestrated; one of the things that tended to happen,
7 did it not, was that someone would shout -- it did not
8 matter who it was -- that there was a gunman and the
9 crowd would get out of the way, would they not?
10 A. Yes, that appeared to be --
11 Q. It was not really orchestrated, it was
12 actually self-preservation as much as anything, was it
13 not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Of course, when the gunmen had gone, the
16 crowd would just move back again because it was safe?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that fair, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so it would look, of course, to the
21 soldier at the other end of this incident as if the
22 crowd was orchestrated, but it was merely the crowd
23 parting because they did not really want to get shot?
24 A. Yes, that is quite possible, yes.
25 Q. Could I take you to your map, sir, that you
1 marked for us, it is AG25.7? If we could have the top
2 half of the map. You mentioned two places where there
3 tended to be riots which might be accompanied by
4 shooting: one was the Lower Road, which I put a line
5 by; is that the Lower Road you mean?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the other was the
8 Little James/Sackville Street area; is that right?
9 A. Yes, although I would -- I do not have much
10 experience of Little James Street.
11 Q. Sorry, sir?
12 A. I do not have any experience of rioting in
13 Little James Street.
14 Q. What you said, if we could -- we will go to
15 it if we need to:
16 "I thought it was the IRA because at that
17 time when rioting took place at Lower Road or the
18 junction of Little James Street and Sackville Street,
19 the IRA would sometimes take a shot at the army"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Please, obviously you can go back on that if
22 it is not exactly correct, but that is what you said in
23 your Eversheds statement.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it really Lower Road that it happened?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Not really Sackville Street?
3 A. Well, I, rioting occurred a lot in that area,
4 but I was not familiar with the rioting in that area
5 because I would be visiting my parents in
6 Francis Street, I was more familiar with rioting that
7 went on in that particular area.
8 Q. Just to help us, Francis Street of course is
9 the next door street?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. If rioting was a commonplace, you were nearby
12 it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Certainly with it being a commonplace next
15 door, what, because there was often a barricade in
16 Lower Road, was there not?
17 A. Um, not that I am aware of, no.
18 Q. Was that one of the places where there would
19 be a barricade if there was a march going along
20 William Street?
21 A. Yes, yes, there would have been a barrier
22 across Francis Street, Lower Road, yes.
23 Q. There were barricades up there, were there
24 not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When that happened, sir, you actually
2 witnessed or just heard of shooting?
3 A. Just heard of.
4 Q. Did you know whether there were favoured
5 places for IRA snipers to go?
6 A. No, I was not aware of it.
7 Q. Was it not known in the locality of your
8 street that there were particular lines of fire to
9 avoid?
10 A. Well, I presume Francis Street would have
11 been one because of the -- the rioting would have been
12 occurring in that area from along Little Diamond and
13 Francis Street is where my brother was shot.
14 Q. Your brother was actually shot as a schoolboy
15 in Francis Street?
16 A. Correct, yes.
17 Q. It sounded as if he was taking sides, which
18 he plainly was not. He was behind the soldiers at the
19 barricade when he was hit by a bullet, what, coming
20 back from school?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have any idea of the obvious direction
23 that that firing had come from?
24 A. It would have been from the Little Diamond
25 area.
1 Q. That sort of area?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let me remind us, I do not want to place too
4 much stress on it, we could be talking as late as
5 1974, 1975?
6 A. Yes, quite possibly.
7 Q. Apart from that, then, did you actually
8 witness any shooting during riots?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you for your help.
11 Questioned by MR ELIAS
12 MR ELIAS: Mr Gallagher, the statement that
13 you made in 1972 does not refer to you being a steward
14 or, indeed, going to barrier 14 and stewarding there;
15 was there some reason for that?
16 A. Probably because I did -- the march was
17 illegal and I did not want to be involved.
18 Q. I understand that. So you did not want to
19 give that information?
20 A. Correct, yes.
21 Q. I fully appreciate and understand that. Can
22 we also understand this: did you give that information
23 and were you told that it should not go down in
24 a statement, or did you yourself withhold it from
25 whoever you were making the statement to?
1 A. I cannot honestly recall.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS McGAHEY: Sir, I have no further
4 questions.
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Gallagher, it is the
6 Chairman again. Thank you very much indeed for coming
7 here to help this Inquiry. Thank you.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 LORD SAVILLE: I have been sent a list of
10 witnesses for tomorrow. Has everybody else got the
11 same list, as far as you know?
12 MS McGAHEY: Everybody has the same list of
13 witnesses, sir, but not the order, which has changed
14 slightly.
15 The first witness tomorrow, sir, will be
16 Mrs Sadie McGinley, AM342; the second Mr Joseph Mahon,
17 AM18; the third Mr John Kelly, AK13; and the fourth
18 Mr Patrick Norris, AN24.
19 LORD SAVILLE: 9.30 tomorrow morning,
20 please.
21 (2.50 pm)
22 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on
23 Wednesday, 21st November 2001)
24 MR JOHN STEVENSON, sworn
25 Questioned by MR RAWAT............................... 1
1 Questioned by MR P CLARKE........................... 22
2 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN....................... 25
3 MRS EIBHLIN MAHON, sworn
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 28
5 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD.......................... 72
6 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 74
7 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN....................... 82
8 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 84
9 MR CHARLES HASLETT, sworn
10 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH........................... 85
11 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 109
12 MR SEAMUS DOHERTY, sworn
13 Questioned by MR RAWAT............................. 114
14 Questioned by MR P CLARKE.......................... 133
15 MR LEO REDMOND GALLAGHER, sworn
16 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY........................... 134
17 Questioned by MR P CLARKE.......................... 158
18 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 164