1 Wednesday, 3rd October 2001
2 (9.35 am)
3 Mr James Patrick McNulty, sworn
4 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McNulty, if you look to
6 your right you can see who is talking to you. I am the
7 Chairman. The questions will come from the barristers
8 who are in front of me. I say this to all the
9 witnesses: could you remember to keep close to the
10 microphone so we can all hear what you have to say.
11 MS McGAHEY: Mr McNulty, do you have with
12 you, please, a copy of the statement you made to this
13 Inquiry and signed on 1st June 1999?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
16 the best of your knowledge and belief?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Everybody here has had the opportunity to
19 read your statement so I will only ask you about parts
20 of it. You will see the first page of it is now on the
21 screen. You tell us in those paragraphs that you were
22 on the march and that you took part in the rioting at
23 the Little James Street barricade we call barrier 12.
24 If we go over the page, you tell us that you were aware
25 of the risk of a snatch squad coming in?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You left the area and you ended up at the
3 point we have marked D. If we could have paragraphs 9
4 and 10 highlighted, please. The point you have marked
5 D on your map, that is the south gable end of the
6 eastern block of Glenfada Park North; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could we have paragraphs 9 and 10
9 highlighted, please, on the same page. In paragraph 9
10 you say that you were sheltering at point D with 30 or
11 40 other people. You knew one person there, who was
12 your wife's cousin, Georgie Roberts?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that Mr George Roberts who gave evidence
15 yesterday?
16 A. Yes, it was, aye.
17 Q. You say you remember hearing live bullets
18 being fired from further north in Rossville Street and
19 you knew the difference between live and rubber
20 bullets. Did you hear any rubber bullet fire mixed in
21 with the live fire?
22 A. I cannot remember now, like, you know.
23 Q. You go on to say:
24 "The shooting became heavier. There was no
25 pattern... it was single shots."
1 You knew it was not automatic fire:
2 "It sounded as if the soldiers doing the
3 shooting were picking targets."
4 What made you able to determine that?
5 A. Well, I knew it was live shooting because of
6 -- it must have been just the difference between
7 rubber bullets and what real bullets is, like, you
8 know, it must have been the crack or something, you
9 know, the difference in them.
10 Q. What made you think the soldiers were picking
11 targets?
12 A. Well, to me on that day, like, it seemed that
13 way, like. I do not know, I just do not know, I seemed
14 to know the difference just like, you know.
15 Q. Is that because you heard few shots spaced
16 out, spaced apart?
17 A. Aye, it seemed that way at the time, you
18 know.
19 Q. You then go on to say:
20 "It seemed like there was a lot of shooting
21 going on."
22 Your reaction was to get away from there and
23 you ran further into Glenfada Park North towards Abbey
24 Park. You say there were three men running in front of
25 you and they fell at the point you have marked E. We
1 have seen where you placed that on the map.
2 Dealing with those three men, where had they
3 come from?
4 A. I think it was beside me on the gable like,
5 you know, we were trying to get away from it, you know,
6 with the shooting and they just seemed to run, like
7 just, you know, to get away from it.
8 Q. So you recollect this: all three were with
9 you at the gable end?
10 A. Well, I am not sure if the three of them were
11 beside me or anything like that there, but when
12 I turned round I seen them running like, you know, when
13 I seen them getting shot, it had to be the gable they
14 were beside, I think.
15 Q. You tell us later in your statement that you
16 knew James Wray?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember him being with you at the
19 gable end?
20 A. He was there, round there somewhere like, you
21 know, I do not know exactly where, like, you know,
22 because at that time I just could not think or nothing
23 at that time.
24 Q. You tell us that later you discovered that
25 one of the men who fell was Joe Mahon. Did you know
1 Joe Mahon at the time?
2 A. No, not at the time, no.
3 Q. Do you remember there being any talk among
4 any people, while you were at the gable end, of a plan
5 to run across towards Abbey Park?
6 A. No, I think it was just an automatic reaction
7 because there was an opening up into what I call the
8 Stardust like, you know, at the time, you know, it was
9 the only way you could get away like, you know,
10 I thought, you know.
11 Q. Was it just chance, then, that the four of
12 you left roughly together?
13 A. I would say it was, aye, I would say, aye.
14 Q. And if you think of those three people in
15 front of you as they ran, do you remember one of those,
16 seeing one of those being Jim Wray?
17 A. Well, I knew Jim, you see, so I just thought
18 it was him anyway like, you know. I just know, you
19 know, at the time.
20 Q. We have seen photographs of James Wray. He
21 is quite distinctive in that he is tall, he was wearing
22 what seemed to be a knitted cap. Do you remember
23 seeing him running from that gable end in front of you?
24 A. Well, I think I did, aye, at the time, aye.
25 Q. You have attached to your statement a
1 photograph. Could we have a look at that, please, a
2 different version, P438. You have told us that the
3 position of the men as they fell was roughly as you
4 recall -- the photograph appears to show the positions
5 as you recall them. We can see there are two people on
6 the pavement along the south side of Glenfada Park, and
7 there is a further person that I have marked with a red
8 arrow closer to the alley into Abbey Park.
9 On your map you only marked the locations
10 being right in the middle. Do you remember seeing a
11 third person further over into Abbey Park?
12 A. I just remember the three of them running
13 together, like, you know, and the three of them, to me
14 it looked at the time, you know, they were just beside
15 each other like, you know, when they were shot, like.
16 Q. Your recollection is the three who were shot
17 down were closer together than we see on this
18 photograph?
19 A. The time they ran, like, I would say so, yes,
20 aye.
21 Q. Could we go back to your statement at
22 AM377.2, paragraphs 9 and 10. You say that:
23 "The three fell down separately but quite
24 quickly one after another and almost at the same time.
25 They fell quickly almost as if by the time someone had
1 pressed a trigger one fell and when they pressed it
2 again, the next fell."
3 Do you remember hearing any shots being fired
4 as those men fell?
5 A. Yes, I do, aye.
6 Q. Do you remember how many shots you heard?
7 A. No, I would not, I would not know now, like,
8 you know. It was just bedlam, like, at that time, you
9 know.
10 Q. Did you have any idea where those shots were
11 coming from?
12 A. Well, I took it it was to the, to the right
13 of me, you know, the start of Glenfada or that opening
14 somewhere, like, you know.
15 Q. You say it was to the right of you?
16 A. Mmm.
17 Q. Which way were you facing?
18 A. I was facing to where the fellas were shot.
19 Q. Towards Free Derry Corner?
20 A. Aye -- no, well, I was looking up into the
21 opening, if you know what I mean.
22 Q. Towards Abbey Park?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did the shots appear to come from inside
25 Glenfada Park?
1 A. To me they did anyway, like, you know, at the
2 time.
3 Q. Did you believe at the time those three men
4 fell that they had been shot?
5 A. I definitely did, I think, all right.
6 Q. Why did you think that rather than think they
7 had just dived to the ground, say, for cover?
8 A. Because they had never moved.
9 Q. If you go over the page, please, and
10 highlight paragraphs 11 and 12. You say that you
11 looked to your right and saw some soldiers coming in to
12 the northeast entrance to Glenfada Park?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You remember three or four of them?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you still at the gable end or had you
17 moved out from the gable end at that stage?
18 A. Well, I moved out from the gable end to try
19 and make a break myself, like, you know, because I knew
20 when they were coming in, you know, at that part, like,
21 you know.
22 Q. How far behind the three men who fell were
23 you when they fell?
24 A. Because of the shooting, like, you know,
25 maybe, I do not know, about, I do not know, 10, 15
1 yards maybe, I do not know.
2 Q. You say you recognised the soldiers as Paras,
3 one went down on one knee at the point you have
4 identified as point F on your map, just at the
5 northeastern corner inside Glenfada Park North. You
6 say the soldier who went down on one knee was pointing
7 a rifle towards -- you say "towards us"?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there somebody else with you standing out
10 in Glenfada Park?
11 A. Well, I suppose there was, like, you know,
12 I did not -- at that time, you know, I was just running
13 to make a break, like, so I did not really look behind
14 me, it was just to the right of me or something, you
15 know, at the time. So when he was down on his knees,
16 like, I knew when these three boys were shot, you know,
17 it could have been me next, I do not know, so I had to
18 turn back.
19 Q. You say you saw some soldiers coming into the
20 northeast entrance of Glenfada Park. Do you remember,
21 as you looked out, there being any soldiers already
22 there?
23 A. No, not at that particular time. It was just
24 when I was turning, turning kinda back, you know,
25 I seen more soldiers coming in, like, you know.
1 Q. Do you remember any of the soldiers
2 approaching any of the bodies on the ground?
3 A. When I was caught they were marching us, you
4 know, over the, what I call the coal sheds, you know,
5 at that time, you know.
6 Q. Before that happened, before you were
7 arrested, you told us that you saw soldiers coming in
8 to the northeast entrance of Glenfada Park. You then
9 went back behind the gable end. At that point
10 obviously you would not have been able to see the
11 soldiers if they had stayed at the entrance?
12 A. No, but --
13 Q. That is right, is it not?
14 A. When I was turning back, you see, you know,
15 I seemed to see more soldiers coming into that opening
16 at that time.
17 Q. Did you see any soldiers coming further into
18 Glenfada Park, closer towards you before you were
19 arrested?
20 A. No, by that time I was behind the gable then.
21 Q. In paragraph 12 you say that when you were at
22 point D, which is behind the gable end, you remember
23 bullets ricocheting off the south gable end wall of the
24 northeast block -- the statement says "Glenfada
25 Park South"; do you mean Glenfada Park North?
1 A. No, it was -- there was kinda an opening up
2 towards the Stardust and there was one facing me
3 leading into the other part of Glenfada, you know, at
4 that time. So I think that is what I was on about
5 there, you know, when I was trying to make a break
6 there, because of the shooting I had to turn back,
7 there seemed to be bullets or something flying against
8 the wall at that time, too.
9 Q. Could we have EP21.2 on the screen, please.
10 This is a photograph taken from the air of Glenfada
11 Park North and South. The gable end behind which you
12 were hiding is there, marked with the blue arrow;
13 Rossville Street goes in the direction marked with the
14 yellow arrow up towards William Street and the other
15 direction towards Free Derry Corner. You have told us
16 you saw soldiers coming in through the northeastern
17 entrance of Glenfada Park North.
18 So when you say that you saw bullets
19 ricocheting off a wall, can you tell us, looking at
20 that photograph, which wall you have in mind?
21 A. I think it was.
22 Q. If you could have control of the screen,
23 could you make a mark on the photograph?
24 A. This wall here (indicating).
25 Q. The point you have marked with an arrow is
1 a pram ramp?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Do you remember it being --
4 A. To me it was an opening at the time, you
5 know. It was a way out, you know, at the time, like.
6 Q. The mark you have made seems to be on the top
7 of the pram ramp. There is a wall, obviously, that you
8 would have been able to see on the right-hand side of
9 the pram ramp as we look at it. I have marked that
10 with a second green arrow. Is that the wall that you
11 could see being hit by --
12 A. I can only picture in my mind now, you know,
13 what it was like. It was just an opening. There were
14 bullets hitting the wall just is all I know, like, you
15 know, at that time.
16 Q. You think the opening that you saw hit by
17 bullets -- could somebody remove all the arrows,
18 please -- you think the wall of the opening that you
19 saw hit by bullets was somewhere in the opening that
20 I have marked now?
21 A. I think it was there somewhere, like, anyway,
22 aye.
23 Q. That is the southeast exit of
24 Glenfada Park North going into Glenfada Park South?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could we go back to your statement, please,
2 to paragraph 12 at AM377.3. When the bullets came off
3 that wall, do you remember was that before or after you
4 and the other three had tried to run across to Abbey
5 Park?
6 A. No, it had to be after, like, you know, when
7 I was trying to get away, like, you know.
8 Q. You say in your statement that you remember
9 bullets ricocheting off the wall and you remember then
10 looking over to Rossville Street and looking at the
11 rubble barricade?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You say that you looked over to the doors at
14 the south end of block 1 of the flats and you could see
15 a person who was crawling from the rubble barricade to
16 those doors?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it was obvious he had been shot?
19 A. Yes, that is right.
20 Q. You go on to say:
21 "That was obvious because he was crawling
22 slowly and his movements were slow."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Beyond the fact he was moving slowly, was
25 there anything else to tell you he had been shot rather
1 than was just moving carefully undercover?
2 A. No, well, not really, no. To me I thought he
3 was shot, like, you know.
4 Q. You cannot remember whether he was in the
5 north or the south side of the barricade when you saw
6 him?
7 A. Well, I think he was inside the barricade
8 heading towards the door of the flats or something.
9 Q. He had already got over the barricade, if
10 indeed he had ever been on the other side of it, by the
11 time you saw him?
12 A. When I seen him anyway he was at the other
13 side of the barricade, I think.
14 Q. You said when you saw him he was at the other
15 side of the barricade; do you mean he was on the Free
16 Derry Corner side or the William Street side?
17 A. No, it would be the Free Derry Corner side,
18 I think. He was heading towards the doors anyway,
19 like, you know.
20 Q. Do you believe that you saw that scene after
21 you and the others had tried to make a run for Abbey
22 Park?
23 A. I do not know now, like, it was before that
24 or after it like, you know, I am not sure now.
25 Q. Could you highlight paragraphs 13 and 14,
1 please. You say that you saw another three bodies who
2 were shot and were lying on the ground near the rubble
3 barricade after -- and you saw those bodies after they
4 had been shot?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You cannot remember whether they were on the
7 north or south side of the barricade, but you do
8 remember that one was on the side nearest to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The west side, the Glenfada Park side?
11 A. Yes, I think I do, aye.
12 Q. Do you remember seeing those bodies before or
13 after you saw the person trying to get to the doors of
14 block 1?
15 A. No, I could not say now for definite.
16 Q. Do you think you saw those bodies before or
17 after the three men fell in Glenfada Park?
18 A. I think it is before because once you seen
19 the shooting, you seen all this, whatever has happened
20 at the time, like, you know, I think that is when we
21 tried to make a break then or something, to try and get
22 away, I am not too sure.
23 Q. At paragraph 14 you say that you saw a
24 soldier shoot one of the three bodies which were lying
25 at the barricade to make sure that that person was
1 dead?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you now have a clear recollection of the
4 soldier going up to a body at that barricade?
5 A. I think at that time when we were getting,
6 when we were getting arrested, like, you know, and
7 getting marched away, I kinda turned round and that is
8 what I remember, like, you know.
9 Q. Do you remember seeing that scene at the
10 barricade?
11 A. Yes, I say, I think it was in Glenfada or
12 somewhere or the barricade, I am not too sure.
13 Q. You think it was -- could have been in
14 Glenfada Park?
15 A. I am not too sure now.
16 Q. Your recollection is that this occurred as
17 you were being arrested?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were arrested at the gable end. Were you
20 then taken up Glenfada Park -- inside Glenfada Park
21 into Columbcille Court?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thinking back now to seeing a soldier shoot
24 someone who was already on the ground, where were you
25 when you saw that happen?
1 A. I was getting marched away at the time, you
2 know, with the rest of the people that was lifted.
3 Q. You were being marched away at the time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Had you left the gable end?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you certain about that?
8 A. Well, that is what I remember, you know.
9 Q. If you had left the gable end and were being
10 marched up Glenfada Park, you could not have seen what
11 was going on at the rubble barricade, could you?
12 A. When you look round you can.
13 Q. You can. You would still have to be in the
14 area of the gable end, would you not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you think that is where you were when you
17 saw this scene?
18 A. As I was saying, I was getting marched away
19 at the time. When you turned round, like, you know,
20 I seen that happening, you know, that is what
21 I remember at the time.
22 Q. In paragraph 15 you say that:
23 "About 15 or so soldiers then came through
24 Glenfada Park North and arrested us"?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You then describe them. You then say:
2 "A Saracen also came up. I am nearly sure a
3 boy was shot again who was already dead."
4 Is that a separate incident?
5 A. Well, at that time I was not sure about
6 rubber bullets but, you know, when things come back to
7 you, you know, it must have been a different, maybe,
8 incident, I do not know.
9 Q. Do you think that you first saw a soldier
10 shoot one of the bodies either at the rubble barricade
11 or in Glenfada Park, and then later saw either another
12 or the same soldier shoot a different body?
13 A. No, I do not know if it was the same soldier.
14 Q. Do you think it was two different bodies?
15 A. I think it was, aye.
16 Q. You think you remember seeing this happen
17 twice?
18 A. Well, as I say, like, you know, I did --
19 I think it was a rubber bullet at the time, you know,
20 one of them and I just seen a soldier putting the rifle
21 to somebody else when I turned round, like, you know.
22 Q. You say you thought one person on the ground
23 was hit by a rubber bullet?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you say which of those ones it was?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you remember a Saracen being in the area
3 at the time?
4 A. Yes, they must have came up the barricade at
5 that time as we were caught, you know, we were getting
6 matched away at the time, we must have been up near the
7 rubble, you know, the barricade at that time, I do not
8 know.
9 Q. You said in your statement you do not
10 remember any of the bodies at the rubble barricade
11 being put into a Saracen. Do you have any recollection
12 of that now?
13 A. I think I do, yes, when things come back to
14 me, yes.
15 Q. When you saw a soldier fire a rubber bullet,
16 could it have been at about the time the bodies were
17 being placed in the Saracen?
18 A. I am not too sure now.
19 Q. Dealing with the first incident in which you
20 say that a soldier fired at someone on the ground, that
21 was as you were being taken away either at the rubble
22 barricade or in Glenfada Park; do you remember that?
23 A. Say that again, please.
24 Q. You have told us about the first time that
25 you saw a soldier fire at someone who was on the
1 ground. You have told us that was as you were being
2 marched away but you are not sure if it was on the
3 barricade or in Glenfada Park; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could that soldier have been firing a rubber
6 bullet?
7 A. No, you would know the difference in the
8 shots, like, you know.
9 Q. But the second time which you think might
10 have been when there was a Saracen in the area, you
11 think that whatever the soldier fired was a rubber
12 bullet?
13 A. Yes, that is what I remember.
14 Q. Do you have any recollection at all of where
15 that boy was who was shot again with the rubber bullet?
16 A. I do not know, I think it is round -- I am
17 not too sure now, no, I am not too sure now.
18 Q. In 1972 you made a written statement and also
19 appeared to have given a taped interview. Could I look
20 first at your written statement, which is at AM377.10.
21 You have told us that you cannot now recall making this
22 statement?
23 A. Actually I cannot, no.
24 Q. You cannot. Are the details like your
25 address at the time and your occupation correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You say there:
3 "I was in Rossville Street when the army
4 charged in Saracen armoured cars. I saw them coming
5 and I ran through an opening -- the maisonettes in the
6 direction of Free Derry Corner. I heard shots when
7 I was running. I reached a gable wall. I stopped to
8 look back towards William Street. I saw the army jump
9 out of the Saracens and spread out shooting while they
10 ran."
11 Do you now remember seeing that?
12 A. Yes, I do, aye.
13 Q. Where were you when you saw that happen?
14 A. Well, as I say, I was running, I must have
15 been behind the gable or something, I must have looked
16 around or whatever, you know, at the time.
17 Q. Then you say:
18 "I saw a young fellow drop and the people
19 still kept running and the army kept shooting. When
20 the people scattered the fellow was still lying there
21 in Rossville Street."
22 Do you remember seeing that?
23 A. Aye, I think -- I do not know he was wounded
24 or something, I do not know now, like, you know.
25 Q. You say you do not know and he was wounded or
1 something; is this the man you are talking about trying
2 to get to the entrance of the block 1 flats?
3 A. I cannot remember now, I think, yes, I think
4 so.
5 Q. In your 1972 statement you went on:
6 "I also saw a fellow coming along the front
7 of the High Flats when I heard more shots and he too
8 just lay there as if he was dead."
9 It does seem that in 1972 you could remember
10 seeing two separate individuals. Do you remember that
11 now?
12 A. No, not really. I remember inside the
13 barricade towards the doors of the flat, I remember
14 that there incident anyway for definite. I am not too
15 sure about the other one now.
16 Q. You then go on:
17 "There looked about four other people wounded
18 beside the telephone box."
19 Do you remember seeing that?
20 A. I seen people lying there, yes.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing four people who
22 appeared to have been wounded?
23 A. At that time, yes.
24 Q. They were all in the area of the telephone
25 box?
1 A. They were between the flat doors and the box,
2 round there somewhere, you know.
3 Q. Were there more than four people there
4 altogether when you looked across to the telephone box?
5 A. Aye, yes.
6 Q. What was it that made you think that four of
7 them were wounded?
8 A. I seen crawling or something, you know, at
9 the time.
10 Q. Can you actually remember seeing those four
11 people?
12 A. I remember the incident, yes.
13 Q. Taking the first one that you can think of
14 that you can remember in your mind, what made you think
15 that that person was wounded?
16 A. There is just something, I just knew it,
17 like, you know, I just knew it.
18 Q. Could we have another photograph, P442, on
19 the screen, please. Mr McNulty, this photograph is
20 taken on Bloody Sunday. It is taken from the
21 Glenfada Park side of Rossville Street looking across
22 to the telephone box. Do you recall seeing a scene
23 like that?
24 A. Well, at that time, like, there was -- there
25 were that many people, like, you know, running,
1 scattering, you know, and hiding like, whatever, you
2 know, at that time.
3 Q. Do you remember seeing anybody in that area
4 who was lying on the ground or bleeding or appeared to
5 have been injured in any way?
6 A. No, just, as I say, you know, when I looked
7 across I seen boys wounded or whatever was going on at
8 that time, like, you know, that is all I know.
9 Q. Do you remember seeing anybody in that area
10 who appeared to be dead and indeed -- or very, very
11 badly injured?
12 A. Not really, not now, like, you know. I just
13 cannot, I cannot remember that, you know.
14 Q. Do you remember seeing anybody lying
15 motionless on the ground?
16 A. Well, I do not know about motionless, like,
17 you know, but I seen boys maybe wounded or whatever,
18 any individual, like, you know, if he was there I might
19 not have seen it, that man or whoever it was at the
20 time.
21 Q. Could we go back to your statement at
22 AM377.10. Going on from where we stopped last time,
23 you say:
24 "I turned around to see if I could make a
25 break for it. There was about 30 of us sheltering
1 behind this gable. Three fellows made a break for it
2 towards the Stardust. I heard more shots and they all
3 fell one after another before they reached the opening
4 where they were heading for. We tried to reach them
5 but the shooting was too heavy. We could not reach the
6 bodies and everyone was frightened so we stood where we
7 were."
8 In that account you do not seem to be
9 suggesting that you were one of the people who ran out;
10 do you remember that in fact you did do that?
11 A. I did run out and at that time I turned back
12 because of the shooting.
13 Q. You then go on:
14 "About 10 minutes later the army came round
15 the back of the maisonettes and arrested the lot of
16 us. They were [I think it says] squalling and shouting
17 and they said 'move, you Irish bastards'. They marched
18 us single file with our hands on our heads through an
19 opening. As we reached the opening they shot a fellow
20 with a rubber bullet in the leg from about two yards."
21 You are there describing reaching on opening
22 and seeing the fellow shot in the leg with a rubber
23 bullet from about two yards; do you remember that?
24 A. I think it was when we were lifted, like, you
25 know, because he was putting up a struggle or something
1 that the man just hit him with the rubber bullet, you
2 know, shot him with the rubber bullet.
3 Q. You do not appear to be suggesting then that
4 this shot was fired at someone who was already dead?
5 A. No, no, not then.
6 Q. Do you think you might be wrong about that?
7 A. No, I do not think so because that is a
8 separate incident there, like. When I turned round,
9 when I turned round to look at Glenfada again as we
10 were marching away, that is when I, I am nearly certain
11 that is what the soldier done, anyway, to the fella or
12 whoever was lying there at the time.
13 Q. You made another statement in 1972 on tape,
14 and I believe you have had an opportunity now to listen
15 to that tape. Is that your voice on the tape?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember making the statement?
18 A. I cannot actually, no.
19 Q. A better transcript than the original has now
20 been prepared which we have at X2.32.30. Could we have
21 that on the screen, please. Could you highlight the
22 middle paragraph, please -- my fault, could I have the
23 top two paragraphs. You say:
24 "Well the troops -- the troops started
25 shooting gas and all. We ran in -- we ran over
1 Rossville Street area out of the road and the gas. We
2 got in behind a gable for cover because the troops
3 started shooting then. I seen seven young fellas
4 getting shot and I seen about four -- they were just
5 running out of the road, out of the gas, out of the
6 hail of bullets because the troops started shooting and
7 they are all looking for cover and three boys came
8 running over the top of the barricade and the next
9 thing I seen was the three of them fall."
10 Do you remember now seeing those boys fall
11 after they had run over the top of the barricade?
12 A. I must have at that time then, aye, when
13 I was, when I made the statement, like.
14 Q. Does it jog your memory now?
15 A. No, it is not 100 per cent now, like, you
16 know, but, you know, I kinda remember that, aye.
17 Q. Going on from that paragraph, you say:
18 "They lay there, just no movement or nothing
19 they were just dead, you know. And when we were in --
20 behind the gable three other boys made a run as the
21 troops were coming up... get out of the road and they
22 just opened fire from no range at all, no -- about 20
23 yards or something. Just -- the three of them just
24 fell, you know. They were dead too."
25 Is that the scene you told us about in
1 Glenfada Park?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You went on:
4 "I seen a couple of boys creeping up along
5 the sides of the big flats, trying to get in -- reach
6 the door to get in for cover and they were already
7 wounded on the leg or the arm or somewhere..."
8 Do you remember that?
9 A. I remember something like that, yes.
10 Q. You remember one trying to get into the
11 block 1 entrance, is that one you remember?
12 A. It must have been one of the fellas
13 I remember, aye.
14 Q. "And as they ran the troops took a shot and
15 shot another boy."
16 Do you now remember that happening?
17 A. Not at the moment, no, not now.
18 Q. "And one of the bullets went through the flat
19 door somewhere."
20 A. Yes, I remember that.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You remember seeing one of the bullets go
24 through the flat door?
25 A. Well, at that time, yes, I think I did, yes.
1 Q. Is that the entrance into block 1 from
2 Rossville Street?
3 A. One of the doors into the flats, yes.
4 Q. Do you remember seeing the soldier who fired
5 that shot?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember anybody being near the
8 entrance when that shot was fired?
9 A. It seemed as if everybody was there trying to
10 get in or something at the time.
11 Q. Going back to the first paragraph, you say
12 you saw seven young fellows getting shot and that seems
13 to be four just running out of the road, out of the
14 gas, out of the hail of bullets because the troops
15 started shooting; do you remember that?
16 A. I kinda remember them getting shot all right,
17 yes.
18 Q. Are those four the four boys who approached
19 the barricade, three of whom were shot?
20 A. Maybe it is, yes.
21 Q. Then you saw another three in Glenfada Park?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And one or two, you now remember, shot in
24 Rossville Street as they attempted to get into the
25 flats?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all the
3 questions I have.
4 Questioned by MR TREACY
5 MR TREACY: Mr McNulty, my name is Treacy and
6 I represent some of the families of the dead and
7 wounded.
8 If we could display on the screen paragraphs
9 9 and 10 of your statement, it is AM377.2. You see in
10 the last three or four lines of paragraph 9, you say
11 there the three men who were running in front of you,
12 and you then mark on the map the point where you
13 believed they fell. You say:
14 "There seemed to be just the four of us
15 running there; there may have been others, I am not
16 sure."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The Tribunal has received a number of
20 statements from a soldier known to us as E, we do not
21 know his name, but he is known by the letter E. He was
22 one of a group of soldiers who was present in
23 Glenfada Park North; do you follow me?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. He claimed in two of the statements, at least
1 two of the statements he made at the time -- and he was
2 one of the soldiers who discharged shots in
3 Glenfada Park North -- he claimed there was a
4 full-scale riot going on in Glenfada Park North when he
5 arrived there; what do you say to that suggestion?
6 A. He is lying.
7 Q. Sorry?
8 A. He is lying, there were no rioting then.
9 Q. He also claims that there were a number of
10 nail bombs which were exploded in Glenfada Park North
11 at this time; did you hear any nail bombs?
12 A. I heard nothing.
13 Q. Could nail bombs have exploded in
14 Glenfada Park North without you having heard them?
15 A. I do not think so.
16 Q. Did you see anybody with any weapons?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you see anybody in Glenfada Park who
19 posed any risk at all to the soldiers?
20 A. No.
21 Q. There is also one of the soldiers who was
22 present in Glenfada Park North, a soldier who is known
23 by the letter H. He claims he shot somebody who was in
24 possession of a nail bomb and that, after that person
25 had fallen to the ground, someone came out of one of
1 the alleyways, either the alleyway which leads into
2 Abbey Park or the alleyway directly opposite it where
3 you would have been positioned; do you follow me?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He claims a person came out of that alleyway
6 and retrieved the nail bomb from the person he had
7 shot; did you see anything like that?
8 A. I did not, no.
9 Q. Of course, it is clear from your statement
10 that you saw and were watching the bodies as they were
11 shot; is that not right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You would have been in a position to see
14 anything of that kind if it had happened?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
18 LORD GIFFORD: Mr McNulty, my name is Anthony
19 Gifford. I represent the family of James Wray. I also
20 want to take you back to the time you were sheltering
21 at the gable wall and, to help you remember, may we
22 look at photograph P209. Do you see the gable wall
23 where you were sheltering?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You see over to the left the alley leading
1 out of Glenfada Park North?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If we can imagine the scene: you are with
4 quite a number of people sheltering at the wall?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Heavy shooting has been going on?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You are very frightened?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You see that there is a possible way out
11 through that alleyway?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have some people made a dash for that
14 alleyway before the group that you were with?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. One by one or groups were making a dash from
17 the gable wall to the alley?
18 A. It seemed like, I do not know, a couple at a
19 time or something because the shooting was that heavy,
20 like, you know, you did not know what to do, just.
21 Q. And the time comes when you decide to make a
22 dash for yourself?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what you told us: that you started to
25 make your dash but saw the men fall and you stopped?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Saw the soldiers and turned back again?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you be given control of the screen and
5 could you, with your finger, mark roughly where you got
6 to in the square before you turned back; can you help
7 us on that?
8 A. (Indicating) I got about round here, round
9 here somewhere, maybe, you know.
10 Q. I think if you touch the screen you will be
11 able to mark an arrow. Thank you. By the time you
12 turned, you had seen people falling towards the alley
13 ahead of you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you had seen the soldiers at the
16 northeast corner?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Perhaps that image could be preserved,
19 AM377.12. You looked to the soldiers and you say three
20 or four?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were some ahead, say two ahead of the other
23 two, something like that?
24 A. I know one was ahead of the rest of them,
25 I do not know.
1 Q. One was ahead of the rest?
2 A. Yes, and I think -- aye.
3 Q. If you can have control, can you help us as
4 to how far into the square the one had got?
5 A. He must have been around here somewhere
6 (indicating).
7 Q. And the others were in the entrance itself?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you had described the others as coming in
10 as you saw them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you form the view that the one whose
13 position you have marked by the pink arrow was the one
14 who had fired the shots?
15 A. When I was looking back it is only one that
16 I had actually seen at the time.
17 Q. Perhaps that image could be re-saved with the
18 pink arrow as well, with the same number.
19 You ran back to the shelter of the gable end?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If I understand it rightly, you kept well in
22 the shelter from then on until you were arrested?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Although I think there was quite a gap in
25 time, some minutes passed between the time you ran back
1 to the time when you were arrested?
2 A. I cannot remember now, like, you know.
3 Q. Can I tell you why I am suggesting that to
4 you. Would you look at AM377.8. About halfway down,
5 your statement at the time reads:
6 "I heard more shots and they all fell one
7 after another before they reached the opening where
8 they were heading for. We tried to reach them but the
9 shooting was too heavy. We could not reach the bodies
10 and everyone was frightened so we stood where we were.
11 About 10 minutes later the army came round the back of
12 the maisonettes and arrested the lot of us."
13 If that is the picture you are painting at
14 the time, that you had ran out, you had run back, you
15 could not get out again and some minutes passed?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That is probably right?
18 A. (Witness nodding). That is what I remember
19 back to, like.
20 Q. Thank you very much, Mr McNulty.
21 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
22 MR CLARKE: Mr McNulty, my name is Peter
23 Clarke. I appear on behalf of a large number of the
24 soldiers.
25 What today is your recollection as to how you
1 had got over the rubble barricade?
2 A. How I got over the rubble barricade?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I think I cut in through, at that time
5 Glenfada, the opening where the soldier came from,
6 I think that is what I done at that time.
7 Q. So your best recollection today is coming
8 through Glenfada Park?
9 A. Yes, I am not sure, but I think it was.
10 Q. To the gable end?
11 A. You see, I call all that there -- at the time
12 I call that all Rossville Street.
13 Q. You call it all Rossville Street?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What, even Glenfada Park car park?
16 A. That is the way I look at it, you know, it is
17 still Rossville Street, like, you know.
18 Q. If that is the case, Mr McNulty -- and I want
19 you to help us with the important evidence that you can
20 give -- if you would have a look again, please, with
21 us at AM377.10:
22 "I was in Rossville Street when the army
23 charged in Saracen armoured cars. I saw them coming
24 and I ran through an opening -- the maisonettes in the
25 direction of Free Derry Corner."
1 That sounds like Glenfada Park, does it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. "I heard shots when I was running. I reached
4 a gable wall. I stopped to look back towards
5 William Street."
6 That would be up the car park or up
7 Rossville Street?
8 A. Well, when I was looking back to
9 William Street, that is, to me is part of
10 Rossville Street too, so the end of Rossville Street,
11 that is William Street, like, you know.
12 Q. "I saw the army jump out of the Saracens and
13 spread out shooting while they ran. I saw a young
14 fellow drop and the people still kept running and the
15 army kept shooting ..."
16 The young fellow dropping, do you have an
17 image in your mind today of that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Not at all? When do you first remember
20 seeing Georgie Roberts on that day?
21 A. I think it was behind the gable when we were
22 all taking cover.
23 Q. You were not at the barricade together at
24 all?
25 A. No. The barricade, no.
1 Q. You see, I want you to look at an image we
2 have -- we will come back to this statement if we need
3 to -- could you look at E14.12. As you know, we heard
4 from Georgie yesterday. He has told us that that is
5 him crouching after somebody gets shot just next to
6 him.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember his appearance, seeing that
9 photograph?
10 A. No, I do not, no.
11 Q. You do not?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you at that barricade at any stage?
14 A. No, I was this side of the gable, I think, at
15 that time.
16 Q. Did you not set foot out towards the rubble
17 barricade at all?
18 A. If I did it was to look down, see what was
19 happening.
20 Q. What, stuck your head round the wall?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we could go back to AM377.10. You also
23 say that you remember:
24 "About four other people wounded beside the
25 telephone box."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where did you get that from, Mr McNulty,
3 "four other people wounded"?
4 A. Well, the telephone box to me would be part
5 of -- beside the flats or something, like, you know,
6 all around there there was people wounded, like, you
7 know.
8 Q. Do you remember how you arrived at the figure
9 four?
10 A. Well, at that time I must have knew, you
11 know, at the time, I must have seen it. It was about
12 four or something like that maybe, you know, that is
13 what I seen.
14 Q. This is a typed version, of course, we can
15 see that, it is plain. Do you remember making a
16 statement to someone from NICRA?
17 A. It is a long time, I suppose, and I --
18 Q. Do you remember where you made it?
19 A. No, not really, no.
20 Q. We have also what have been described as
21 Keville tapes, the transcript you were shown by
22 Ms McGahey just earlier, that is plainly different from
23 this NICRA statement. Do you remember making a
24 tape-recorded interview with a woman interviewing you
25 with an American accent?
1 A. No, I just cannot think back, no.
2 Q. Not at all?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If I may ask, which do you think is the most
5 reliable, as far as your general recollections are
6 concerned: today or the accounts you gave at the time?
7 A. I would say at the time.
8 Q. Analysing what you have told people on
9 occasions, do you really think it is reliable to say
10 that there were four other people wounded by the
11 telephone box?
12 A. That is what I seen at the time, like.
13 Q. What sort of discussion did you have with
14 Georgie about events before you made the statement,
15 Mr McNulty? I do not criticise the conversation with
16 Georgie?
17 A. I tell you now I do not see Georgie Roberts
18 from one day to the other.
19 Q. What, at that time?
20 A. I did not really talk to George.
21 Q. At that time, around Bloody Sunday, did you
22 not have a lot of conversation with him about what had
23 happened?
24 A. No, not really, no.
25 Q. Not at all?
1 A. I do not think so, no.
2 Q. Did you speak with anyone?
3 A. I must have spoke to a lot of people.
4 Q. There was a lot to talk about, was there not?
5 A. Course there was, yes.
6 Q. Do you remember whom you spoke with?
7 A. No, I do not, no.
8 Q. You have told us in your evidence, and you
9 confirmed that your recollection was that you made a
10 break for the far side of the car park behind the other
11 three people?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you remember saying that? Is that your
14 recollection today?
15 A. Yes, that is the way I see it, yes.
16 Q. On seeing those three people shot, you turned
17 back?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What today is your recollection as to how far
20 you got across the car park?
21 A. Well, I do not know exactly where, like, but
22 I marked it earlier on there.
23 Q. Can we have a look at P209 again.
24 Mr McNulty, how far did you get following the others;
25 did you make it past the white lines?
1 A. Round here somewhere (indicating). I could
2 not tell you the distance. Somewhere around there,
3 yes.
4 Q. You are right out in the open?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would that blue arrowhead be a rough
7 position?
8 A. Well, roughly, yes.
9 Q. When you turned back, were there people
10 bumping into you who were trying to do the same thing?
11 A. At that time, like, you know, I say there
12 could be all right, like, you know, I just cannot
13 remember that there, but I know this incident here.
14 Q. Do you remember -- in fact, do you have any
15 recollection as to what happened as you turned back?
16 A. I just turned back to get back to that gable
17 for cover.
18 Q. Any trouble doing that, any difficulty?
19 A. No, I do not think so, no, but I got back
20 anyway.
21 Q. Do you really remember, sir, at all, do you
22 have any independent recollection now of doing that?
23 A. Yes, that is what I remember, that is what is
24 in me mind.
25 Q. You are, if I may say so, vehement about your
1 comment about a soldier who says there was rioting
2 going on in the car park; you say that recollection
3 must be a lie?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was happening in the car park before the
6 three men made a dash for it?
7 A. They were all hiding behind that gable.
8 Q. There were a lot of people in the middle of
9 the car park, were there not?
10 A. They could have been scattered all over the
11 place, like, you know.
12 Q. There was a lot of activity at the gable
13 itself, was there not?
14 A. Aye, hiding for your life.
15 Q. Could I ask you, please, to just help us with
16 your views of this account. Can we have AQ11.22? Can
17 we highlight paragraph 19. This is an account by
18 Mr Quinn:
19 "I do not know how long I was in
20 Glenfada Park North, but I remember after some time
21 seeing two young fellows in the northeast corner at the
22 point marked [on the map] who were looking round the
23 corner of the flats into Rossville Street. They were
24 only young, about my age or a little bit older, and I
25 did not know them. I was concerned in case they did
1 anything. They were clearly nervous too, looking out
2 and back again. I recall one of them having a denim
3 jacket and dark hair and one with fair hair and a
4 quilted anorak. The boy with the fair hair and quilted
5 anorak had something which might have been a nail bomb
6 in his left side pocket. I had not seen one before and
7 did not know what it looked like, but I remember
8 something like a coke tin with grey tape and a piece of
9 material coming out of the top.
10 "Coupled with the fact that they were peering
11 out towards the army and seemed very nervous and were
12 keeping a look-out, I was very frightened by what
13 I saw. It was then I saw a man coming from the
14 northwest corner of Glenfada Park North walking in the
15 direction of the arrow I have marked on the map ...
16 I remember hearing him say words to the effect of 'Put
17 those away, you will only get people killed'. My only
18 recollection of seeing what I took to be a nail bomb in
19 a pocket, but my memory of these words suggest to me
20 that the boys may have had something in their hands
21 which I saw, but cannot now remember seeing. The
22 shooting in Rossville Street was going on at this time
23 and was reasonably intense and the boys did as they
24 were told and left by the northwest corner of
25 Glenfada Park with this man back the way he had come.
1 I did not recognise the man, or know whether he was an
2 IRA man but concluded later that the man probably was a
3 member of the IRA -- by virtue of the way the boys
4 unquestioningly did what he told them. The man was
5 older than we were and was wearing a long coat.
6 I would say he was in his mid 20s but I had never seen
7 him before or since."
8 The reason I have read the whole of that
9 passage out, that is Michael Quinn's account of what
10 happened in Glenfada Park before he gets shot in the
11 cheek with the bullet coming out through his nose.
12 What I suggest to you is that when you are at that
13 gable there is a lot more going on than you have told
14 us about?
15 A. Well, I never seen nothing anyway.
16 Q. Nothing like that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I suggest there were people coming across
19 Glenfada Park giving orders to people at the gable
20 wall; you missed that?
21 A. Well, if it happened I missed it, all right.
22 Q. There were people looking round the gable
23 wall to see if it was worth throwing what looked like
24 nail bombs at the army; you missed that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And there was, not so much a riot, but there
2 was a great crowd of people in the car park when that
3 soldier arrived; was there not?
4 A. There was people there, but I could not tell
5 you how many, like.
6 Q. And although I suggest that your description
7 of a riot may differ from the soldier's, to a soldier's
8 eye as he comes into Glenfada Park, there was a whole
9 crowd of people in the car park, was there not; not
10 just three people?
11 A. Most people got in behind that gable, that is
12 what I know anyway.
13 Q. Your order of events today is that you ran
14 behind the three people and then doubled back; yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you remember today for us: do you see the
17 bodies on the rubble barricade before or after you
18 double back?
19 A. I would say it was before, I am not sure.
20 Q. It could be either?
21 A. It could be anything, aye.
22 Q. But you have not seen them go out to the
23 rubble barricade, the bodies that you saw there; you
24 just saw the bodies on the barricade lying down?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What about the young man falling down that
4 you tell us about in your NICRA statement. Let us go
5 back to it, sir, it is not fair of me to just throw the
6 question at you. AM377.10:
7 "I saw a young fellow drop and the people
8 still kept running and the army kept shooting. When
9 the people scattered the fellow was still lying there
10 in Rossville Street."
11 What body is that, sir?
12 A. It must have been one of the wounded or
13 something, I do not know, I cannot remember now.
14 Q. You have no independent recollection now
15 whatsoever?
16 A. No, at that time there I seen what I seen
17 anyway, like, that day.
18 Q. What I must put to you is that the three men
19 that you say you saw shot in Glenfada Park were shot,
20 but they were not shot as they ran in a row ahead of
21 you; were they?
22 A. They were shot in front of me anyway, like,
23 you know, what positions -- to me it seemed as if they
24 just fell one beside each other at that time.
25 Q. May I put a matter to you for your comment:
1 the soldiers come into that car park and those three
2 men are shot amongst a large group of people who are
3 making for the southwest corner; are you with me as far
4 as the southwest corner is concerned?
5 A. That is the opening through?
6 Q. Yes. Can we have P209 again. That is the
7 southwest corner, and you remember where the gable was,
8 where you have described you were. Once the soldiers
9 come in, a very large number of people all round the
10 car park flee to the southwest corner, do they not?
11 A. Well, to me at that time I seen the three
12 fellas just, that is what I remember, I do not remember
13 a big crowd or nothing like that there. I think
14 everybody was in behind this gable at that time.
15 Q. Mr McNulty, is it not the case that you
16 concentrated on the three fellas because they were the
17 ones who ended up on the ground, and you concentrated
18 on those three once they had fallen down?
19 A. I had no choice, I seen it happening, like,
20 you know.
21 Q. Sir, I am not challenging the fact that you
22 saw three men go down. What I am suggesting is that
23 they were surrounded by many other people?
24 A. I do not see it that way, I just remember the
25 three fellas. If it was anybody at all they were down
1 behind this gable or round that area.
2 Q. Forgive me, I do not want to dismiss that
3 answer in any shape or form. You do not remember it in
4 that way, you just remember the three fellas. If it
5 was anybody at all they were down behind this gable?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That one there?
8 A. Around this area at that time.
9 Q. I hope I am not being unfair, sir; you have
10 them running from the gable across like that, all in
11 a row?
12 A. I do not know the exact same way, like, but
13 they seemed to be on the pad or something.
14 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN
15 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Mr McNulty, my name is
16 Allan Green and I appear for some of the soldiers.
17 I do not want to go over the ground Mr Clarke has just
18 covered with you, but just tell me this: your memory
19 today and when you made your Eversheds statement of
20 your following the three that fell in Glenfada Park is
21 a vivid one?
22 A. I suppose it is now, like, you know, but you
23 still remember what you remember, like, you know.
24 Q. You can remember today dashing out after the
25 other people?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then, because of the shooting, going back
3 again?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. May I ask you this: obviously one does not
6 necessarily cover everything in the statement, but in
7 your statements nearer the time -- one of them is at
8 377.8, which we can look at -- you mention the three
9 men who ran. Halfway down, just above halfway down:
10 "Three fellows made a break for it towards
11 the Stardust. I heard four shots and they all
12 fell ..."
13 You say nothing there about your running
14 after them, following them running; is there any
15 particular reason --
16 A. There was probably a lot of things that was
17 not put into that, you know, from what you remember.
18 Q. Then 377.11, we have that as well, it is the
19 lower passage there. Again you describe the three men
20 who are running across, and again you say nothing
21 there, I think, about your having run after them:
22 "Three other boys made a run as the troops
23 were coming up on them to get out of the road ..."
24 You describe how they just fell. Again you
25 say nothing there about your having followed them and
1 because of the shots turned back and returned to the
2 gable wall. Any particular reason, or none that you
3 can think of?
4 A. Not unless -- there are things, as I say, is
5 not in there, you know.
6 Q. I appreciate some things slip your mind,
7 obviously, but that was quite near the time.
8 Let me ask you about one other matter, that
9 is this: as far as these sequence of events is
10 concerned, the order in which things happened, it is
11 right, is it not, that today you are not clear about
12 the order in which things happened; for example, when
13 you were asked by Mr Clarke about when you saw the boys
14 on the rubble barricade, whether it was before or after
15 the three were shot in Glenfada Park, you were not sure
16 whether you had seen them before or after that; that is
17 fair, is it not?
18 A. Yes, that is right.
19 Q. It may well be that when you had returned
20 from the dash that you started to make across the
21 courtyard of Glenfada Park North, your attention after
22 that may well have been on what was happening in
23 Rossville Street and, indeed, on the shots that you saw
24 to the south, on the wall that you have indicated
25 earlier on; you may have been looking at those things
1 and, indeed, the man going along Rossville Street in
2 the southern direction, the man who was wounded; that
3 is right, is it not?
4 A. Yes, well, at that time I had no ...
5 Q. Your attention at that stage was on those
6 things rather than on Glenfada Park?
7 A. Well, as I say, I only seen what I could see
8 like, at that time, you know.
9 Q. We have your Eversheds statement and we see
10 the sequence of events there. Thank you, very much
11 Mr McNulty.
12 MS McGAHEY: I have no further questions.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McNulty, it is the Chairman
14 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
15 assist the Inquiry, thank you.
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 Mr Paul Coyle, sworn
18 Questioned by MR RAWAT
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Coyle, you can see who is
20 talking to you. I say this to all the witnesses: I am
21 the Chairman. The questions will come in the main from
22 the barristers in front of me. Just try and remember
23 to keep fairly close to that microphone so we can all
24 hear what you have to say.
25 MR RAWAT: Mr Coyle, do you have with you a
1 copy of your statement to this Inquiry?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. I understand there is one correction you
4 would like to make to it, it is to paragraph 2. We see
5 that at the end of the paragraph there is a sentence
6 which reads:
7 "I passed Littlewoods in the city centre and
8 this was the first occasion on which I encountered
9 Paratroopers."
10 I understand that should be inserted at the
11 top of the paragraph after the first sentence, after
12 the words "my friend Kevin Duffy." Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Subject to that correction, are the contents
15 of your statement true to the best of your knowledge
16 and belief?
17 A. There was another correction which was on the
18 map.
19 Q. Can we put your map up, please, it is
20 AC105.9. What is the correction you would like to
21 make?
22 A. The correction by my map was I had a mark C
23 and C should have been changed to -- can I point to it
24 on the map?
25 Q. Yes, if Mr Coyle could have control.
1 A. That wasteground there (indicating).
2 Q. C should be more north on that piece of
3 wasteground?
4 A. Yeah, in my original statement -- can I still
5 point to this, yeah -- I had stated it was here
6 (indicating).
7 Q. If I could have control, please. Point C
8 should be there where my blue arrow is?
9 A. That is originally where it was, but I want
10 to move it to the wasteground next to that, further
11 along William Street.
12 Q. We do not need to save that. For the
13 transcript, if we can record that the map needs to be
14 corrected so that point C is in the centre of what we
15 have been calling the laundry wasteground. This is the
16 wasteground which would be immediately opposite the
17 derelict house and Stevenson's Bakery on
18 William Street?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Subject to those two corrections, are the
21 contents of your statement true to the best of your
22 knowledge and belief?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr Coyle, everyone has had the chance to read
25 your statement and so I only want to ask you questions
1 about some parts of it.
2 If we could go back to the first page,
3 please, and highlight paragraph 2, you describe there
4 the beginning of the march. You say that at the
5 Creggan roundabout you met Kevin McElhinney and he was
6 a close neighbour and a friend of yours?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. You say you remember he was carrying a paint
9 bomb which was just a lemonade bottle with paint in
10 it. You go on to say it was not an explosive device,
11 but its purpose was to splash the clothes of soldiers
12 standing in the vicinity of where it landed. Did Kevin
13 McElhinney tell you what he was going to do with the
14 paint bomb?
15 A. My recollection, no, he did not.
16 Q. Could we have on the screen, please, L241.
17 This is the first page of a two-page article by
18 Brenda Power which was published in the Sunday press in
19 January 1992. That would be roughly to coincide with
20 the 20th anniversary of Bloody Sunday. You were
21 interviewed for this article. Do you recall being
22 interviewed by a journalist from the Sunday press?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. The rather blurred photograph in the middle
25 of the page is one of you. If we could go to the next
1 page, L242, the second column from the right of the
2 screen. Part of the article that deals with you starts
3 here and it reads -- it is quite a short section, but
4 it reads:
5 "Paul Coyle, who was 16 then, had gone to the
6 march with his friend Kevin McElhinney, who was 17.
7 Kevin had a paint bomb, 'He told me he wanted to make
8 his mark on a Saracen' but the pals got separated at
9 the march."
10 Do you now recall Mr McElhinney telling you
11 something like that?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. That was at the beginning of the march?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. You actually did not see Mr McElhinney much
16 after the beginning of the march, did you?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. If we can go back to AC105.1, you went on the
19 march and reach the junction of William Street and
20 Rossville Street and you could see, if we look at
21 paragraphs 3 to 5, you could see rioting further down
22 Rossville Street, but you were overcome by gas and so
23 you actually retreated up William Street to a point
24 near the old Stevenson's Bakery. You have marked that
25 point on your map as point A.
1 You say you could see people throwing stones
2 at the front of a derelict house and soldiers inside
3 the house, on the ground floor. If we could have P234,
4 please. To try and help you orientate yourself: you
5 have William Street running down here; we can see the
6 roof of the GPO here. If we could remove my arrows.
7 Looking at it and in comparison to your map, this would
8 be the wasteground where you saw people throwing
9 stones; does that agree with your recollection?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Just here is actually the side of the
12 derelict house where you saw the soldiers. How many
13 people were throwing stones at the soldiers?
14 A. I cannot remember, it was not very many.
15 Q. Did you see what the soldiers were doing in
16 response to that?
17 A. No, all I seen of the soldiers were they were
18 hid, crouched down inside the house, hid.
19 Q. Were there still marchers coming down
20 William Street?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You go on to say that you moved away and you
23 moved away through the wasteground we can see. That
24 would have been the wasteground opposite where you had
25 been standing. As you were moving away, you heard two
1 live rounds which were high velocity rounds and you
2 turned round to the north and saw somebody slip and
3 fall to the ground?
4 A. (Witness nodding).
5 Q. Then you ran towards Columbcille Court. You
6 go on later on in your statement to say that you
7 returned in the area. This is at paragraph 6. You saw
8 someone you found out was Damien Donaghy who you knew
9 from school, and also a Mr John Johnston being taken
10 into a house in Columbcille Court.
11 The only question I want to ask you is this,
12 if we could remove my arrows: the person you saw fall
13 on the wasteground -- it is the wasteground here -- was
14 that a young person or an older person?
15 A. That wasteground I have been trying to --
16 when I looked at my original statement the reason why
17 I moved -- was moving out of the road was to get out of
18 the firing of rubber bullets, and now I believe that
19 actually going into that wasteground there, that
20 I might not -- it might have been the wasteground
21 further down the street.
22 Q. That was going to be my next question,
23 because a lot of evidence we have heard tends to
24 suggest both Mr Donaghy and Mr Johnston were shot or
25 fell on or about the wasteground I have indicated with
1 my second arrow. You would not dispute that?
2 A. All I can say was that I was moving away from
3 rubber bullets and if I had have went through the
4 wasteground, the one north on William Street, it would
5 not have made sense, so it must have been the lower one
6 because I was getting the cover from those buildings.
7 Q. If we could move on, please, and highlight on
8 AC105.2, paragraphs 8 down to 10. You did go back to
9 the house in Columbcille Court, but on hearing the
10 sound of Saracens you ran off through Columbcille Court
11 and you ended up at a position you have marked as D on
12 your map, which is the gable end wall of
13 Glenfada Park North.
14 You say in paragraph 9 you looked north up
15 Rossville Street and you saw the left-hand side of a
16 Pig parked facing the northeast entrance of
17 Glenfada Park North at position E on the attached map:
18 "I could see soldiers around the vehicle, but
19 I cannot remember how many soldiers I saw."
20 You say you may also have seen a Ferret car
21 in this position:
22 "But I can no longer recall clearly."
23 If you can explain how this Pig was
24 positioned; was it side on to Rossville Street so that
25 the front faced the northeast entrance of
1 Glenfada Park North?
2 A. I am not actually sure if the front was
3 facing Glenfada Park, but I only looked round the
4 corner for a couple of seconds. My recollection was it
5 was actually faced sideways, facing up Rossville Street
6 sideways.
7 Q. You say that it was at the northeast entrance
8 of Glenfada Park North. Given the passage of time,
9 could it have been further than that, further back than
10 that, possibly around the area of Kells Walk?
11 A. It might have been all right.
12 Q. Can we go on to paragraph 10 and what you
13 could see as well from the gable end. You could see
14 between 6 and 12 boys on either side of the rubble
15 barricade stretching across Rossville Street. Was that
16 all the people you could see on the rubble barricade,
17 or were there others there?
18 A. No, my recollection at the time there was
19 very few people on the barricade and that is probably
20 correct.
21 Q. You describe them as hurling abuse at the
22 soldiers further north up Rossville Street. Did you
23 see anyone throwing stones in the direction of those
24 soldiers?
25 A. There is a possibility there was, all right.
1 Q. I am afraid, would you mind speaking up a
2 little? It might help if you pull the microphone a
3 little closer to you. I did not catch your last
4 answer?
5 A. I said there is a possibility there was
6 fellas throwing stones.
7 Q. You go on to say that you saw:
8 "... one of the boys standing either on or
9 behind the rubble barricade facing north with his arms
10 outstretched, gesticulating with his two fingers up,
11 presumably at the soldiers standing north of his
12 position."
13 You say he was making gestures; did he have
14 anything in his hands?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You say you do not remember who this person
17 was at the time. Then suddenly you heard a hail of SLR
18 bullets ring out, which you assumed had been fired from
19 the soldiers standing further north along
20 Rossville Street.
21 How soon after you arrived at the gable end
22 did you hear this hail of SLR bullets?
23 A. It is hard to say, within maybe a minute,
24 half a minute, two minutes, it was very hard to tell.
25 It would not be any longer than five minutes.
1 Q. Can I have, please, O5.23. Mr Coyle, also
2 attached to your statement is an extract from a
3 programme that was broadcast in 1992 and it was made by
4 a film company called Praxis. The programme was called
5 "Secret History: Bloody Sunday" and you appeared in
6 that programme. Do you recall appearing in that
7 programme?
8 A. I remember the programme, yes.
9 Q. What the Inquiry has also obtained is
10 a transcript of the filmed interview with you, so that
11 was a number of interviews made with you and also notes
12 made by someone from Praxis concerning the interview
13 with you. If we could go back to the page and if I
14 could draw an arrow. This paragraph here: what it is
15 recorded that you told someone from Praxis was that
16 you:
17 "... ran up through the flats and took cover
18 at the gable end, at end of Glenfada. Only 15 seconds
19 to there. Firing started, clear view of barricade.
20 People were still walking past, and few fellows went
21 out and began jeering at the soldiers who were firing
22 up Rossville Street."
23 Does that help you, firstly, in trying to
24 remember how long it was after you had got to the gable
25 end that you heard firing?
1 A. It does not, no.
2 Q. Do you recall people then going out and
3 jeering at the soldiers?
4 A. I recall people in, in the middle of the
5 street jeering and giving the fingers to the soldiers.
6 Q. But nobody moving out from
7 Glenfada Park North?
8 A. I cannot remember now.
9 Q. It says:
10 "People were still walking past."
11 That would suggest people were walking past
12 down Rossville Street towards Free Derry Corner; do you
13 have a recollection of that?
14 A. I do not think it means that at all, no,
15 I just happened to see people walking past.
16 Q. You just think it means?
17 A. It could have been one or two people.
18 Q. Walking past?
19 A. My position.
20 Q. At Glenfada Park North?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And down Rossville Street?
23 A. No, up Rossville Street.
24 Q. Up Rossville Street?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Towards the soldiers?
2 A. Sorry, no, towards Free Derry Corner.
3 Q. I am sorry?
4 A. Towards Free Derry Corner.
5 Q. That was my fault. Let us go back, then, to
6 AC105.2, paragraph 10. In 1972 were you able to
7 identify the sound of an SLR?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You had earlier described in your statement
10 hearing two high velocity shots. This hail of SLR
11 shots, were those the next set of shots you had heard?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. How many SLR shots did you actually hear?
14 A. It was intense.
15 Q. Intense?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Can you say how long it lasted for, the
18 firing?
19 A. Um, no.
20 Q. Did you see the strike of any bullets?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where were they?
23 A. On the barricade.
24 Q. You go on in paragraph 10 to say that you
25 remember seeing:
1 "The boy who had gestured at the soldiers
2 dive for cover or fall to the ground near the centre of
3 the rubble barricade. I cannot remember whether he
4 fell forwards or backwards or what position he lay in."
5 Did you actually see this boy hit with a
6 bullet?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is it possible he just jumped behind the
9 rubble barricade for cover?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. What you say is that you did not recognise
12 him at the time but you later learnt that this person
13 may have been William Nash:
14 "I knew William by his nickname 'Stiff'".
15 Before Bloody Sunday you knew William Nash?
16 A. Yeah, I lived on the same street as him in
17 Creggan, yeah, but we had left years prior to that.
18 Q. When you say you later learnt this person may
19 have been William Nash, that was some time after
20 Bloody Sunday?
21 A. I cannot remember.
22 Q. Can we look at AC105.11, please. This is the
23 extract from the broadcast produced by Praxis which we
24 mentioned a few moments ago. What it says is:
25 "People were panicking everywhere. You could
1 hear women squealing, you know. There was a barricade
2 just here, say from the corner of that wall or that
3 lamppost, and also over there which is a way now, was
4 the Rossville Street Flats which are stood here across
5 the street. The shooting started to get very intense.
6 You could actually see the dust as the bullets hit the
7 ground. I seen the fellow William Nash run out.
8 I think that he went to the assistance of somebody.
9 I could not think of any other reason why he ran out in
10 the middle of the shooting because it was sort of like
11 a suicide attempt. He ran out and he had not got three
12 or four stops and he just plumped down like a stone he
13 did."
14 You go on to say in response to a question
15 that William Nash did not have anything in his hands.
16 What that document suggests is that
17 William Nash ran out from the gable end of
18 Glenfada Park North to the barricade, which does not
19 coincide with what you have put in your statement to
20 this Inquiry.
21 Does reading this again, does that trigger a
22 recollection of where you saw William Nash?
23 A. It does not, no.
24 Q. So you cannot remember seeing William Nash
25 run out from the gable end of Glenfada Park North?
1 A. No, I remember the programme; I cannot
2 remember the statement, but I mind he was actually on
3 the barricade.
4 Q. Can we go back now to O5.5. This is part of
5 the full interview that Praxis conducted with you.
6 Obviously what they then did was edited it and
7 broadcast part of it. We need to start on the page
8 before, O5.4. What you say is that just as you arrived
9 shooting started. You saw people run out. You go on
10 to say:
11 "The shooting started to get very intense.
12 There were already people on the barricade."
13 If you go on to the next page, please:
14 "Some people were on the ground when I got
15 here. Some of them were moving, some were not. I seen
16 guys crawling along the ground, as if to go over and
17 give assistance to the other fellas. The bullets, it
18 was just -- it was incredible, like the bullets were
19 just coming off the barricade, actually see the dust,
20 as the bullets hit the barricade. At the time I could
21 not see actually what they were shooting at, because
22 anybody there was on the ground. There was nobody
23 standing up at the time."
24 What that extract I have just read out
25 suggests: when you were standing at the gable end you
1 saw other people on the ground behind the rubble
2 barricade and people moving out to them; does that
3 accord with your recollection now?
4 A. My recollection -- I had missed the point you
5 are getting at. My recollection was when I got to the
6 barricade, there were people standing on the barricade
7 and then the shooting started slightly after that.
8 Q. What this seems to suggest you also saw were
9 people moving out from the gable end, crawling out to
10 the rubble barricade; do you have a recollection of
11 that?
12 A. That is possible all right, yeah.
13 Q. Can we go on to AC105.3 and highlight
14 paragraphs 11 to 13. You say in paragraph 11 that
15 after seeing the boy who may have been William Nash
16 fall to the ground, you pulled in tight to the wall for
17 cover and you could not see any more of the rubble
18 barricade. You looked across to the east towards the
19 Rossville Flats and you could see a man crawling
20 towards the door to block 1. You say:
21 "He was not carrying anything in his hands;
22 if he had been carrying a gun or a rifle, I would have
23 seen it whilst he was crawling. Then I saw that he had
24 stopped moving. I cannot say for sure that this person
25 had been shot because I did not see what happened to
1 him before he stopped crawling nor did I see any blood;
2 I just saw this individual lying still. I later
3 learned that this may have been Kevin McElhinney."
4 When did you learn that?
5 A. That was only, it was -- I do not know
6 exactly, it was about five years ago.
7 Q. Was it very shortly after Bloody Sunday?
8 A. No, it was about five years ago.
9 Q. At the time that you looked across and saw
10 this man crawling, was the shooting still going on?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. How close did he get to the doors of block 1?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. We have had some evidence that Kevin
15 McElhinney actually ran and others actually ran from
16 the barricade to the door into block 1 in a crouched
17 position. Do you recall seeing anybody running to the
18 door of block 1 like that?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. Can I have O5.16, please. What you said
21 there in the interview conducted with you by Praxis
22 when they asked:
23 "Question: Did you see anybody else shot on
24 the barricade?", what you go on to say is:
25 "There was two fellas actually on the
1 pavement, the far side of the street, just below the
2 flats. One of them was crawling, the other guy was not
3 moving at all. My mind at the time -- I was thinking
4 to myself that the fella was dead, you know. The guy
5 who was crawling was trying to get out -- actually get
6 away from the shooting, and he was crawling towards the
7 main doors of the High Flats. The only problem we had
8 there was that the closer he got to the doors he was
9 actually losing the cover from the barricade. But
10 later on I found that the fella who was lying limp was
11 a friend of mine, it was Kevin McElhinney."
12 What this portion of that interview suggests
13 is that you saw more than one person on the other side
14 towards the pavement near the Rossville Flats. Do you
15 have any recollection of that?
16 A. I have a slight recollection of two people
17 being somewhere near the door of the Rossville Street
18 Flats. You have to imagine the time this was happening
19 there was intense gunfire, there was panic and I just
20 was not concentrating on the one point at that moment,
21 so I mean, I mean, this is not as if I was
22 concentrating on two people on the far side of the
23 street. I just happened to glance across, seen two
24 people on the ground, one was crawling, one was not.
25 Q. Let us go back to AC105.3, paragraph 12.
1 Here you say you saw a man emerge from amongst the
2 people standing near point D and walk east towards
3 Rossville Street. You heard somebody shouting "do not
4 go out there, they will shoot you", and you recognised
5 it was Alex Nash. You say:
6 "On reaching Rossville Street, Alex Nash
7 walked to the barricade waving a white hanky with his
8 arms in the air. He was shot and fell to the ground.
9 I cannot recall the exact location, but he had only
10 taken a few steps and he was certainly south of the
11 rubble barricade when he went down. I remember that
12 after he was shot, he began to crawl towards the rubble
13 barricade."
14 Did you, at the time when you heard people
15 trying to persuade Mr Nash not to go out there, did you
16 know why he wanted to go out to the rubble barricade?
17 A. I just thought he wanted to go to help
18 somebody.
19 Q. You describe him walking out. As he was
20 walking out, could you still hear shooting?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. You told us earlier that you were tight up
23 against the gable wall so you could not see the rubble
24 barricade. Did you watch Alex Nash go out?
25 A. Yeah, I did, all right, yeah.
1 Q. As you did so, could you see any bodies on
2 the rubble barricade?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. How many bodies could you see?
5 A. Um, well, bodies would be -- I saw people
6 lying at the barricade, I cannot remember, half a
7 dozen, more.
8 Q. These could have been people who were just
9 taking cover behind the barricade?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. You say "he was shot and fell to the ground";
12 do you recall where the shot came from?
13 A. I could not say, no, I just knew it was a
14 high velocity round.
15 Q. In the time that you were at the gable wall,
16 do you recall any bodies being carried into
17 Glenfada Park North?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What you say at the tail end of paragraph 13
20 is that:
21 "A number of fellas ran in a westerly
22 direction towards the southwestern exit", and you
23 decided to go and you ran with them.
24 If we could have paragraphs 13 down to 15,
25 the bottom of the page. You say in paragraph 14 that
1 as you were running you looked to your right and you
2 saw two Paras coming into Glenfada Park North. You
3 say:
4 "There were two or three people in front of
5 me running in the same direction at the time and there
6 could have been some people behind me."
7 What you had an impression of was that you
8 were running as part of a group of four men?
9 A. Yes, well, four or more.
10 Q. The Paras that you noticed entering
11 Glenfada Park North from the northeast entrance, you
12 describe them as carrying SLR rifles and say you only
13 glanced at them, but you remember that two soldiers
14 stood side by side and began firing their weapons "at
15 us from the hip". You put your head down and ran as
16 fast as you could to the southwestern exit.
17 How far had you gone from the gable end
18 before the firing started?
19 A. It may have only been -- it was not very far.
20 Q. Did you hear these soldiers shout any warning
21 at all?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You say you have a vague recollection of
24 jumping over somebody "in front of me who had fallen to
25 the ground. I do not know what made this man fall and
1 I cannot describe him."
2 Is that still your recollection, you cannot
3 help at all with a description of this man?
4 A. No, I just know that somebody had fall or
5 tripped to my side or to my front. It panicked me
6 because I knew if I had have tripped on him, the
7 likelihood was I was going to get shot.
8 Q. Are you able to help us as to where this man
9 fell in Glenfada Park North?
10 A. It was probably about halfways across, I am
11 not sure, I think about halfways across.
12 Q. You say the soldiers were shooting. How
13 would you describe the shooting that was going on as
14 you ran across Glenfada Park North?
15 A. It was rapid.
16 Q. You were certainly conscious of two or three
17 people in front of you. Did anybody in the group have
18 anything on them that could have been mistaken for a
19 weapon?
20 A. No, absolutely not.
21 Q. Were any of them waving their hands in the
22 air?
23 A. No, I just -- they were like myself, they
24 were running to save their lives.
25 Q. Do you recall anyone signalling to a soldier?
1 A. No.
2 Q. If we could have P428, please. This is a
3 photograph taken from the Rossville Flats on
4 Bloody Sunday. It shows the gable end of
5 Glenfada Park North. You have the gable end wall here
6 and in the distance the southwestern exit that would
7 take you through into Abbey Park.
8 If we could remove my arrows. As you were
9 running, that is the exit you were running towards,
10 were you aware of people gathered in the alleyway that
11 leads into Abbey Park?
12 A. At the time, no, only when I reach the far
13 side, I realised there was people there.
14 Q. At that part of the alley, the entrance into
15 Glenfada Park from Abbey Park, in the area here
16 (indicating), were you aware of anybody who looked as
17 if they were getting ready to throw something at the
18 army, at the soldiers?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In the time that you were in
21 Glenfada Park North, were you aware of anyone who
22 looked as if they were getting ready to engage with the
23 army?
24 A. Absolutely not.
25 Q. Were you aware of anybody carrying anything
1 that might have looked like a weapon?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You say in paragraph 14 that you met Evelyn
4 Lafferty wearing a white coat. You presumably knew her
5 at the time?
6 A. No, I did not know who she was until
7 afterwards.
8 Q. But you were aware of a woman wearing a white
9 coat?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And she was running in the opposite direction
12 into the courtyard?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So you had got through into the alleyway.
15 You had passed Evelyn Lafferty?
16 A. On the way out, yeah.
17 Q. Did you hear any further shots from
18 Glenfada Park North after you got through?
19 A. I know that when I had got to the other side
20 they were still shooting, because I was amazed the fact
21 that she was running out in the middle of it. But once
22 I have gotten through I have no recollection of hearing
23 any more shots. There may have been, I cannot
24 remember.
25 Q. Can we go back to paragraph 15 in AC105.3,
1 the bottom. What you saw when you got into Abbey Park
2 was:
3 "A man being supported by two others with a
4 dark hole in the centre of his chest which looked to me
5 like a gunshot."
6 He was a tall man in his 20s with long hair
7 and he was being propped up with two men walking
8 towards you in a northerly direction.
9 Did you ever learn the name of this man?
10 A. I do not think so, no.
11 MR TOOHEY: Mr Rawat, the term "Abbey Park"
12 has been used fairly loosely during the currency of the
13 hearing, sometimes to describe Abbey Park strictly
14 so-called, and quite often to describe the area between
15 the park and Glenfada Park North. It probably does not
16 matter where positions are marked but, because of that
17 possible ambiguity, it may be useful to ask Mr Coyle if
18 he can identify where the two persons who he saw were.
19 MR RAWAT: If you give me one moment, sir.
20 (Pause). Firstly, Mr Coyle, did you see these two men
21 after you had gone through the exit into Abbey Park
22 itself?
23 A. What two men are you talking about?
24 Q. Let us go to paragraph 15. In paragraph 15
25 you describe a man with a dark hole in the centre of
1 his chest. If we go over to the next page -- this is
2 the first man -- you then say that you continued south
3 along the alleyway:
4 "Where I saw another man walking in
5 a northerly direction. This man was holding something
6 to his face which was red with blood. He was walking
7 and I was unable to see his face."
8 If I could have 210.1 on the screen. We can
9 see on this image, first of all the gable end where you
10 were sheltering initially; the southwestern exit from
11 Glenfada Park North that would take you into Abbey
12 Park; the houses that we see here are the houses that
13 comprise Abbey Park.
14 If we could remove my arrows, please. What
15 Mr Toohey was seeking assistance on was: where you saw
16 these two men, firstly the one with the dark hole in
17 his chest, and secondly the one holding something red
18 with blood to his face. Does that help you to be able
19 to pinpoint where you saw them?
20 A. You want me to do that now?
21 Q. Yes, please.
22 A. The fella with the dark hair and the khaki
23 jacket would have been round here somewhere, in that
24 area (indicating).
25 MR TOOHEY: Mr Coyle, that would seem to put
1 that man just the other side of the exit from
2 Glenfada Park North; is that right or not?
3 A. It was in that area, yes.
4 MR RAWAT: We could probably do better, sir,
5 if we try hotspot 27. Could we swing round to the
6 right, please. What we can see on the left of the
7 screen is the western block of Glenfada Park North, and
8 on the right of the screen would be the western block
9 of Glenfada Park South, and in the middle is the area
10 where you would have emerged from Glenfada Park North.
11 Before we save that, would you be able to mark where
12 you saw the fellow with the long hair and khaki top on
13 this image?
14 A. No, it was within that area. I had just come
15 through Glenfada Park and I think by the time I got to
16 there I was pretty traumatised. I remember seeing
17 somebody, I could not pinpoint where exactly it was,
18 but it was within that area.
19 Q. Within the area between the two western
20 blocks of Glenfada Park North and Glenfada Park South?
21 A. No, within the area in the picture.
22 Q. What about the other chap, holding --
23 LORD SAVILLE: Before we get to the other
24 chap. Mr Coyle, the Chairman speaking: you said in
25 your statement that this man was walking towards you in
1 a northerly direction. Are you sure you recollect the
2 direction he was walking?
3 A. I come through Glenfada Park and I do not
4 know how far through I was, but I recollect a man who
5 was actually coming towards me.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Coming towards you?
7 A. Yeah.
8 LORD SAVILLE: You do recollect him coming
9 towards you?
10 A. Yeah, he was actually facing me.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Do you remember which way you
12 were going? I mean, you say in your statement you
13 eventually went south down towards the Old Bog Road,
14 I think?
15 A. Yeah.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Do you remember whether you
17 turned to go south or were you still coming out of the
18 alleyway?
19 A. I was still coming out of the alleyway.
20 LORD SAVILLE: You were still coming out of
21 the alleyway?
22 A. I think so, yes.
23 MR RAWAT: Did it look to you as if this man
24 was walking back towards Glenfada Park North to go back
25 into --
1 A. Well, I do not know, I cannot recollect how
2 far I was actually out of Glenfada Park at that stage,
3 all I know was a man was coming towards me.
4 Q. Let us try and pinpoint the position of the
5 second man. You say in your statement that you
6 continued south along the alleyway "when I saw another
7 man walking in a northerly direction".
8 Again this man was walking towards you, this
9 second man?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And "this man was holding something to his
12 face which was red with blood."
13 Are you able to say, looking at the picture
14 we have on the screen, where this second man was?
15 A. It would not have been within that area
16 there, no.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Swing round to the right.
18 MR RAWAT: If we swing round slowly, please.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Do you see where you are,
20 Mr Coyle?
21 A. Yes.
22 LORD SAVILLE: That leads down to the Old Bog
23 Road?
24 A. Yes. It may have been along there somewhere,
25 I am not 100 per cent sure.
1 MR RAWAT: Let us save the view and if you
2 could try and mark it, mark the approximate area where
3 you saw the man holding something to his face which was
4 red with blood.
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Coyle, do not mark it
6 unless you are sure. If all your recollection is that
7 you think it may well have been down that way towards
8 the Old Bog Road, but you do not really know exactly
9 where, and all you can say is you think it was
10 somewhere in that area, then tell us that; if that is
11 your recollection, tell us that, there is not much
12 point marking the screen.
13 A. Yeah, I will go along with that.
14 LORD SAVILLE: Is that your best
15 recollection?
16 A. Yeah, it was somewhere in that area.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Somewhere in that area?
18 A. (Witness nodding).
19 MR RAWAT: Can I show you two photographs,
20 first of all P572. It is again in relation to the two
21 men you saw. You see this man has an injury to the
22 chest; does that look like the first man that you saw?
23 A. I would not have a clue.
24 Q. Let us try P779. This is a man who has an
25 injury to the face; does he look like the second man
1 that you saw?
2 A. The second man I saw was walking with his
3 hand up to his face, he had a handkerchief or something
4 to his face which was soaked in blood; I could not tell
5 you.
6 Q. Thank you, those are all my questions.
7 Questioned by MR TREACY
8 MR TREACY: Mr Coyle, my name is Treacy and
9 I appear on behalf of some of the families of the dead
10 and wounded. There is one matter arising out of
11 paragraph 14 of your statement, if that could be put on
12 the screen, please, AC105.3. In the third line of that
13 statement you describe how you were running into
14 Glenfada Park North and you looked to your right and
15 you noticed two Paratroopers entering
16 Glenfada Park North from the northeast entrance. You
17 then mention that there were two or three people in
18 front of you running in the same direction as yourself,
19 and that there could have been some people behind you.
20 If I could put on the screen EP21.2. This is
21 not a photograph that was taken at the time. You see
22 the remains of the rubble barricade there just in front
23 of the Glenfada Park North flats?
24 A. I do, yes.
25 Q. Would it be just slightly to the left of that
1 was the gable end of those flats. Do you see the
2 entrance from Glenfada Park North into Abbey Park; do
3 you see that?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Would it be possible for you, if you had
6 control of the screen, to mark approximately the route
7 that you took as you made your way across
8 Glenfada Park North into the alleyway which led into
9 Abbey Park; would it be possible for you to do that?
10 A. Aye, do you want me to do it on the screen
11 now?
12 Q. Yes, please.
13 A. I can only imagine it was be a bee-line, it
14 would have been across, it was a straight run across.
15 Q. As you made your way across, the people you
16 have referred to in your statement, you say there were
17 two or three people who were in front of you, along the
18 line you have marked; is that right?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. And there could have been some people behind
21 you, also along the line you have marked?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. As you made your way across that courtyard
24 you also looked to your right and you saw a number of
25 soldiers. In your statement you describe it as two
1 soldiers who were standing side by side firing their
2 weapons from the hip?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Would it be possible for you to mark
5 approximately on that photograph where those soldiers
6 were?
7 A. Yeah, they were just here (indicating).
8 Q. As you were making your way across
9 Glenfada Park North, you looked to your right and you
10 were conscious of those two soldiers?
11 A. Yes. I knew the soldiers were there even
12 before I had moved.
13 Q. But the only people you were conscious of
14 were the people in front of you, or you think there may
15 have been some people behind you, along the line you
16 have marked in the photograph?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Can we be clear about this: you have no
19 recollection whatsoever of there being any people to
20 your right as you looked towards the soldiers?
21 A. Nobody.
22 Q. There is a soldier who is known to this
23 Tribunal as E who has said in two statements that he
24 made at the time -- he was one of the soldiers who came
25 into Glenfada Park North -- he has said in his
1 statements there was a full-scale riot going on in
2 Glenfada Park at this time; what do you say about that?
3 A. Absolutely not.
4 Q. Although the position has been somewhat
5 refined today by Mr Clarke, who appears on behalf of
6 the soldiers, and he says it may not have been so much
7 as a riot but a great crowd or a whole crowd, as he
8 described it. Is that consistent with your
9 recollection?
10 A. There was absolutely nobody in Glenfada Park
11 when I ran across it, bar the people who were with me.
12 Q. Would you know the difference between a crowd
13 and a full-scale riot?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. I take it you would also have expected a
16 soldier in Derry at that time to have also known the
17 difference?
18 A. You would think so, yes.
19 Q. If we keep the direction you went in. You
20 obviously went through the alleyway and out into Abbey
21 Park; is that right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. You have no recollection of having any
24 difficulty whatsoever in making your way through the
25 alleyway and into Abbey Park?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You did not have to push past people or
3 anything like that, in order to get out of Abbey Park?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If that image could then be saved. I am not
6 sure what the reference for that would be.
7 MR RAWAT: AC105.13.
8 MR TREACY: AC105.13, I am much obliged.
9 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
10 LORD GIFFORD: My name is Anthony Gifford,
11 I represent the family of James Wray. In the notes
12 made by the people who interviewed you for the film in
13 O5.23, it is noted that you were very affected by it
14 all; it marked you for life?
15 A. It did, yes.
16 Q. You were 16 at the time of Bloody Sunday?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. We have heard -- we will hear from a number
19 of people of that sort of age. You did not make any
20 statement at the time?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The first time you recorded any account was
23 for the TV film?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Then again you had to recollect it for the
1 interview with Eversheds for this Inquiry?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you find that the images and details of
4 the day came back to you easily?
5 A. They did not, no.
6 Q. When you say you were marked, very affected
7 by it, what do you mean by that?
8 A. I probably think at the time I was quite
9 traumatised by it.
10 Q. Going briefly to the scene in Glenfada Park:
11 I will not repeat the questions you have already been
12 asked, but the two or three who were running ahead of
13 you, were they running more in a line or more a bunch?
14 A. We were more a bunch.
15 Q. You have given your account of the sighting
16 you had of the two soldiers, you have marked the
17 position shooting from the hip. With your leave, sir,
18 could you stand up and demonstrate the position in
19 which those soldiers were holding their guns?
20 A. (Indicating) yeah.
21 Q. Thank you very much. In your Praxis
22 interview you described the effect on the youth who
23 fell as being as if somebody had taken the legs off
24 him?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. That is what you remember?
2 A. (Witness nodding).
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
5 MR CLARKE: Mr Coyle, my name is Clarke,
6 I appear for a number of the soldiers.
7 Did you see the paint bomb or were you just
8 told about it by Kevin?
9 A. No, I seen it.
10 Q. Do you remember where he showed it to you?
11 A. Yeah, it was in Creggan, at the roundabout in
12 Creggan.
13 Q. Did you see any other things that other
14 youths were taking with them on the march?
15 A. Like what?
16 Q. Anything?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Nothing at all, so no cut-off billiard cues,
19 for example?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You actually saw the paint in the bottle?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Is that something that was new to you as
24 something to do on a civil rights march; had you come
25 across that before?
1 A. I had seen people with them before, yes.
2 Q. Going on marches or --
3 A. Not necessarily marches.
4 Q. Or going on a matinee riot?
5 A. Yeah, going on a riot, yeah.
6 Q. When there was a riot, would acid sometimes
7 be put in lemonade bottles?
8 A. I had never seen it.
9 Q. Never seen it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. But you would know, would you, whether it was
12 paint or acid in a bottle?
13 A. Yeah, well, I could imagine that paint would
14 be coloured and acid would be clear.
15 Q. Can I move on. Have you actually seen
16 photographs of the group of people at the gable end in
17 Glenfada Park on that day; were you shown photographs
18 when you made a statement?
19 A. I cannot remember.
20 Q. Could I ask you, sir, briefly to look at some
21 images that we are familiar with and you may not be.
22 Could you look at P433 first, please. Take your time,
23 sir, of course, just to get your bearings. We are at
24 the entrance to the car park with the gable behind
25 which people have been sheltering on the right and the
1 main body of the car park straight ahead of us; do you
2 have your bearings?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We are looking from Rossville Street?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The group in the centre of that photograph
7 are clustered -- it is common ground -- around the body
8 of Michael Kelly; do you follow that?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Can I show you the sequence of events. Could
11 we go to the next photograph, 434. You will see the
12 two young men on the right of the image are pointing
13 towards the rubble barricade, or in that direction; and
14 a person of whom we have heard much, Mr Liddy, in the
15 light coat and the hat who is kneeling down, is looking
16 over his left shoulder in a similar direction; do you
17 see that?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. The third one in the sequence, 435, the
20 cameraman has panned round about 10 degrees. You can
21 see on the left of your screen Mr Liddy about to
22 strongly counsel the woman to get in to the safety of
23 the gable wall, plainly; and on the right-hand side,
24 certainly at least one of the young men paying, it
25 seems, considerable attention to what is happening in
1 Rossville Street; yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Your recollection, as I understand it, of
4 events at the rubble barricade is that you first
5 remember "Stiff" Nash being shot; is that right?
6 A. Yeah, well, I do not know if he was shot or
7 not, all I seen was him falling -- I seen people on the
8 barricade fall, whether they were shot or diving for
9 cover.
10 Q. It was just the falling you remember?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. But at the time that you saw those persons
13 fall, obviously I am not asking for exact numbers, but
14 how densely populated was the barricade; were there
15 just two or three people around or were there scores?
16 A. Actually on the barricade, there was only a
17 couple on the barricade. There may have been anything
18 from half a dozen to...
19 Q. Half a dozen or so?
20 A. Yeah, maybe more.
21 Q. Are you satisfied in your own mind that it is
22 William Nash who is falling?
23 A. I did not know at the time it was William
24 Nash, that person was William Nash.
25 Q. How did you put a name to him, then?
1 A. I have a recollection of the father going out
2 and when he was shot, actually crawling towards that
3 person.
4 Q. Again, this is something we certainly do not
5 dispute: Alex Nash, father, goes out from the gable
6 wall?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. To a person lying by the barricade and goes
9 to him?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Your recollection, on one occasion at least,
12 was that the father was shot before he got to his son?
13 A. Yeah, he had only taken a few steps out and
14 he was shot.
15 Q. And collapsed?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. That is the image you have in your mind?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. What I suggest to you is that he made the
20 walk to his son and actually took his son in his arms?
21 A. No, it is not my recollection.
22 Q. And then started waving at the soldiers?
23 A. I cannot remember that, no.
24 Q. Trying to get help for his son?
25 A. No, I cannot remember --
1 Q. That is not your image at all, is it?
2 A. No, it is not, no.
3 Q. Indeed, what you remember is, on one
4 occasion, can I take you -- you have looked at it
5 before -- to O5.23. I accept entirely this is
6 someone's version of your account. Could we have the
7 bottom half of the page:
8 "Ran up through flats and took cover at gable
9 and at end of Glenfada. Only 15 seconds to there.
10 Fire started, clear view of barricade. People were
11 still walking past, and few fellows went out and began
12 jeering at the soldiers who were firing up
13 Rossville Street. I would not have done it."
14 A. Well, I cannot remember that statement.
15 I cannot remember actually saying -- I know for a fact
16 that when I got to the barricade there was no
17 shooting. I put my head round the corner to look down
18 William Street at Glenfada Park, at the gable end
19 because I looked down, actually looked round the corner
20 and if it had have been shooting I would not have
21 looked round the corner.
22 Q. You looked round the corner along
23 Rossville Street, up towards William Street?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. No shooting going on?
1 A. At that time, no.
2 Q. And other people on the barricade?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Obviously since this has all occurred,
5 Mr Coyle, you have seen programmes about Bloody Sunday;
6 you have read books about it?
7 A. I have seen programmes, I have not read a big
8 lot about it, no.
9 Q. You know in general terms where different
10 young men were shot?
11 A. Probably all right, yeah.
12 Q. I am not seeking to criticise you, obviously:
13 do you know where and when Michael Kelly was shot?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You have no idea?
16 A. No.
17 Q. The reason I ask is because of something that
18 was said at the opening of this Inquiry. You remember
19 the three photographs I showed you. I told you -- you
20 obviously did not know that it is Michael Kelly being
21 tended to by, amongst others, Barry Liddy in the light
22 coat. Can I take you to a further photograph. It is
23 later in time, though it is an earlier number, P432.
24 This is from the other side; do you follow?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. We are looking east now. We can see Mr Liddy
2 there from the other side, all right. Down here was
3 roughly where Michael Kelly had been tended to,
4 roughly. In fact he is almost certainly in this
5 photograph being carried there by, amongst others,
6 Jim Wray. What was said at the opening of this Inquiry
7 by Counsel representing him was that that is William
8 "Stiff" Nash, still alive and still standing with his
9 back to the wall. It does not mean it is necessarily
10 the case because it is obviously not a terribly good
11 image, but if Mr Nash is still standing with his back
12 to the wall, just as far as the chronology is
13 concerned, sir, it means he has not yet gone out to the
14 rubble barricade, plainly; yes?
15 A. That is --
16 Q. I am trying to ascertain when you must have
17 joined this group, because an awful lot has gone on at
18 the rubble barricade and around this area that you have
19 missed. Sir, I do not mean that critically, what I am
20 trying to ascertain is when you joined these people.
21 You say you cannot remember anyone up in the
22 north part of the car park, when Lord Gifford asked you
23 "was anyone up to the north of the car park or was it
24 just soldiers?", you said with conviction: there was
25 nobody. What I have to suggest is: these people here,
1 carrying a body across the car park, just before
2 shooting breaks out. You understand the assertion I am
3 putting to you?
4 A. I know where you are going, yeah.
5 Q. Can you help us, because we have heard lots
6 of witnesses saying "we were carrying Michael Kelly
7 across the car park. The soldiers came in and we
8 dropped him". They were not down by the corner of the
9 exit, they were in the middle of the car park. Did you
10 miss them?
11 A. I know. My recollection was that the firing
12 was that intense that most -- anybody that was there
13 was up against the gable end wall of Glenfada Park.
14 Q. Can I show you another image. You
15 understand, Mr Coyle, I am not seeking to do this to
16 confound you, but just to show you what else we have
17 heard. P436. This is taken seconds later, probably
18 after the previous photograph I have shown you. The
19 group are carrying Michael Kelly's body across the car
20 park; do you follow?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. We are approaching the centre of it, but we
23 have not even got to the central reservation. A number
24 of those good people have told us that they are
25 carrying Kelly and the soldiers come in and they flee
1 and, in fact, he is probably put over one of their
2 shoulders and taken to the southwestern corner. That
3 is happening due north of you, I suggest; did you see
4 them at all?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You have no recollection whatsoever of
7 Michael Kelly being moved round the car park, have you?
8 A. I have no recollection of it, no.
9 Q. On top of that, if it was right -- can we go
10 back now, the 20 seconds to P432. We know from those
11 witnesses, and they are plainly correct, that they
12 dropped Michael Kelly when the soldiers came in because
13 they fear for their lives. So we have the soldiers
14 coming in at the top of the car park around that time,
15 all right; are you with me just for the moment?
16 A. (Witness nodding).
17 Q. Seconds before Michael Kelly is being
18 carried, as I have shown you here, and William Nash is
19 still at the gable end, all right, in time. You
20 understand I am dealing with chronology?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. He has got, and I am sorry to put it this
23 way, to get out on to the barricade and be shot at the
24 same time as the soldiers are coming into the car
25 park. How could that be, on your recollection? It is
1 not possible, is it, because you have to run across the
2 car park?
3 A. Yeah. All I can tell you is what I saw was
4 I was standing at that corner and there was intense
5 gunfire. When I left the corner to run across
6 Glenfada Park, there was nobody. Those people there
7 were not there, there was nobody there.
8 Q. The only reason I put the image to you is so
9 that you can refresh your memory as to what is --
10 A. Yeah, I mean, I think most people at that
11 gable, the assumption was, if the army was in
12 Rossville Street they were in Glenfada Park.
13 Q. They were not --
14 A. They were in Glenfada Park. So nobody was
15 going out there. I mean, the fact that I ran out
16 there, the only reason I ran out there, because
17 I thought they were firing from the walls so I had to
18 get away. When I left that gable and looked to my
19 right there was nobody in Glenfada Park except two
20 soldiers stepped into an alleyway and started firing
21 from the hip.
22 Q. Your account is that before you start your
23 flight across the car park, you know the soldiers are
24 there?
25 A. Fair idea they are there, yes.
1 Q. That is right, is it? You have decided
2 "gosh, the soldiers are here, I have got to get out of
3 it"?
4 A. I am going to die at this corner so what do
5 I do, and they are firing from the walls, so what do
6 I do? Do I stay there or do I attempt to save myself?
7 So I run.
8 Q. An awful dilemma.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. It would seem that an awful lot of people are
11 making the same decision. Your recollection is just
12 three or four or five of you?
13 A. Yeah, there were three or four fellas
14 standing beside me who actually were talking about
15 going across Glenfada Park. One of them stated they
16 are firing from the walls. At that they ran. I never
17 thought about it, I ran with them.
18 Q. The previous witness has told us how he makes
19 that flight as well and he decides "goodness, these
20 soldiers are firing, I am going back". Did you find
21 that there were people or even a person who turned and
22 ran straight into you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Because the image you have in your mind is
25 quite a narrow file of people making their escape
1 across the south side of the car park?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Not 10 abreast?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Almost in Indian file?
6 A. No, no, might have been more in a bunch, you
7 know.
8 Q. More in a bunch?
9 A. Yeah. My biggest fear was tripping the
10 person in front of me.
11 Q. Do you remember colliding with people coming
12 southwards having dropped Michael Kelly's body?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Not at all, nothing?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can I move to the other side of the rubble
17 barricade briefly, sir. Could we go, please, to O5.16,
18 the central section:
19 "There was two fellas actually on the
20 pavement, the far side of the street, just below the
21 flats. One of them was crawling, the other guy was not
22 moving at all. My mind at the time -- I was thinking
23 to myself that the fella was dead, you know. The guy
24 who was crawling was trying to get out -- actually get
25 away from the shooting and he was crawling towards the
1 main doors of the High Flats. The only problem we had
2 there was that the closer he got to the doors he was
3 actually losing the cover from the barricade. But
4 later on I found that the fella who was lying limp was
5 a friend of mine, it was Kevin McElhinney."
6 You remember two crawlers, do you?
7 A. I have a recollection of two people on the
8 far side of the street, yeah.
9 Q. Quite close to one another at the time you
10 first set eyes on them?
11 A. No, there was a distance between them, there
12 was a distance between them.
13 Q. Can I examine that just a bit further: a
14 long way or did it appear that Kevin McElhinney had
15 been left behind, as it were, or could you not tell?
16 A. Yeah, I mean, I did not know it was
17 Kevin McElhinney, all I knew was that I was told that
18 Kevin McElhinney was shot at the front of the flats.
19 Q. Thank you, that is very fair. You actually
20 do not know that was necessarily him on the ground?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. We have heard evidence, you understand, of
23 him bursting through the doors of block 1 into people's
24 arms. The person you saw did not look as though they
25 were capable or likely to get up in the future and make
1 it to the door?
2 A. No.
3 Q. The extra matter: your evaluation of the
4 person who was still crawling was that they were losing
5 their cover of the rubble barricade?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And actually making themselves more
8 vulnerable in their eagerness to get down --
9 A. Get away.
10 Q. -- to the door. Could you actually see
11 beyond that crawling person? In other words, could you
12 see whether he, I assume it was he, had anything in his
13 left hand that he was pulling along the ground?
14 A. No, nothing.
15 Q. Could not see?
16 A. If he had have had something there I would
17 have seen it, I probably would have seen it all right,
18 yeah.
19 Q. Why?
20 A. Because he was crawling, I have a
21 recollection of his hands out in front of him.
22 Q. What, both hands?
23 A. I think so, yeah.
24 Q. Do you still have an image of that or is that
25 slightly wishful thinking, sir?
1 A. No, it would not be wishful thinking. I know
2 for a fact there was no weapons fired. From where
3 I was, I did not see or hear anybody return fire.
4 Q. Did you hear, at any stage, any person come
5 across to the gable in Glenfada Park and give some
6 orders to two of the young men who were at that gable
7 "out of it, come on"?
8 A. No. This is when the shooting was going on?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. No.
11 Q. With them lurking at the edge of the gable by
12 Rossville Street, looking as if they wanted to join the
13 action on Rossville Street?
14 A. No, I do not think so.
15 Q. Thank you. One matter, Mr Coyle, I must
16 formally put is that when the soldiers came in, they
17 may have had their guns ready at the hip, but you did
18 not see a discharge of that, either of those rifles at
19 the hip, did you?
20 A. I did not see anything leave the muzzle of
21 the weapon. All I know is I looked to my right, two
22 soldiers stepped into the alleyway and started firing
23 at me.
24 Questioned by MR ELIAS
25 MR ELIAS: Mr Coyle, could I take you back
1 for a moment to Mrs Shiels' house where you had seen
2 Bubbles Donaghy and Mr Johnston, as we now know, taken
3 into that house. You had sat on a wall outside?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. For about how long were you on that wall?
6 A. I could not say, seconds to minutes, you
7 know.
8 Q. Were there quite a lot of people around in
9 that area?
10 A. There was, yeah.
11 Q. Did you hear any sound of firing when you
12 were in that area?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you see anyone involved in an argument?
15 A. There was quite an argument with a camera
16 crew.
17 Q. Apart from the camera crew you have talked
18 about in your statement?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You were not aware of anyone carrying a gun,
21 or any argument with a man carrying a gun?
22 A. I did not see anything, no, or hear anything.
23 LORD GIFFORD: May I, with your leave, ask
24 one further question which I omitted to ask before.
25 Mr Coyle, you said to Mr Treacy there and
1 again to Mr Clarke, that before you moved out from the
2 gable wall you had a fair idea that there were soldiers
3 in Glenfada Park. May I ask you: what was it that gave
4 you that fair idea?
5 A. I do not know, I think it was just I thought
6 to myself that if -- my impression was that day they
7 were actually going to move into the Bogside and
8 dismantle the whole area, so to me they would have come
9 in in more than one direction. I had seen the Saracen
10 pull up against that walkway to Glenfada Park, so
11 I just assumed that they were actually in Glenfada Park
12 somewhere about the entrance.
13 Q. Was anyone saying that they were in?
14 A. No, nobody says.
15 Q. It was just something you assumed from the
16 way you read the situation?
17 A. Yeah.
18 MR RAWAT: Can I just deal very quickly with
19 one matter. It is going back to the last man you saw
20 holding something to his face, which was red with
21 blood. If I could show you P782. Does that look at
22 all like the man that you saw?
23 A. I would not recognise the man, the man's face
24 was covered.
25 Q. There is one matter I need to correct. It is
1 an error I made. I gave Mr Treacy the wrong reference
2 for the image he wished to save. That image should
3 actually be AC105.12.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Coyle, thank you very much
5 indeed for coming here to assist this Tribunal.
6 A. Thank you.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 LORD SAVILLE: We will stop now until
9 1 o'clock.
10 (12.10 pm)
11 (The luncheon adjournment)
12 (1.05 pm)
13 MR OLIVER GREEN, sworn
14 Questioned by MR RAWAT
15 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Green, if you look to your
16 right you will see it is the Chairman speaking to you.
17 I say this to all the witnesses: questions will come
18 from the barristers in front of me. Could you try and
19 remember to keep close to that microphone in front of
20 you so we can all hear what you have to say?
21 MR RAWAT: Mr Green, do you have a copy of
22 your statement to this Inquiry with you?
23 A. Yes, I have, yes.
24 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
25 the best of your knowledge and belief?
1 A. Yes, I believe so.
2 Q. We have all had the chance of reading your
3 statement, so I only want to ask you questions about
4 some parts of it. Can we go to AG52.3 and highlight
5 paragraphs 14 through to 18?
6 On Bloody Sunday you were just 8 years old.
7 You had gone with some friends to see the march. When
8 the Saracens came in, in particular when you heard live
9 shots you and a friend, Gary English, ran for the
10 safety of your aunt's home which was in
11 Glenfada Park South. As we can see from paragraph 14
12 you did not actually get to Glenfada Park South, you
13 cut through the northeast entrance of
14 Glenfada Park North and ran across the courtyard of
15 Glenfada Park North.
16 At paragraph 15 you say that on the south
17 side of the courtyard there was an old lady at the gate
18 of one of the yards and she told you to come in and you
19 and some other people ran into the yard and they went
20 into the house, but you did not want to.
21 Did you ever find out the name of that old
22 lady?
23 A. I have no idea.
24 Q. You say at the beginning of paragraph 16 that
25 you and your friend Gary English ended up alongside two
1 bins in that old lady's yard and you were then looking
2 back out onto the courtyard of Glenfada Park North.
3 Can we see where you have marked that yard as
4 being; if we could have AG52.5. You have circled on
5 Glenfada Park North where your aunt's flat was. We can
6 see there is a black square with an arrow on the south
7 block of Glenfada Park North. That is where you and
8 Gary English ended up.
9 If we could remove the arrow, we can see that
10 there are in fact three yards in front of that block in
11 Glenfada Park North. It looks as if you were in the
12 middle yard; is that right?
13 A. No, I think that is -- I am correct -- to the
14 best of my recollection I think it was towards the end
15 yard, along there, two up.
16 Q. Let us go to EP21.2. Can we expand the area
17 around the southern block of Glenfada Park North? What
18 we can see are the three yards in front of that block;
19 which one do you think you were in?
20 A. On the third, the one nearest the alleyway.
21 Q. If we could remove the first two arrows. You
22 were in the yard marked now with this arrow?
23 A. Well, I think so, I mean I am not
24 100 per cent sure. I think it was either the middle
25 one or that one, it was the backyard there.
1 Q. It comes down to this: you and your friend
2 were either in the middle yard or in the yard that is
3 closest to the southwest exit that leads to Abbey Park?
4 A. And I would be, on recollection, I think it
5 was the top one, the one nearest to the alleyway.
6 Q. We do not need to save that. If we could go
7 back to your statement and again paragraphs 14 to 18,
8 please. You say in paragraph 16 that you could hear
9 roaring, shouting and screaming and shots being fired:
10 "The shots seem to echo around the
11 courtyard."
12 You go on to say that people were running
13 into the backyards to take cover and after a while the
14 noise quietened down, but you could still hear
15 shooting, a lot of shooting, then a lull and then more
16 shots.
17 Whereabouts was the shooting coming from?
18 A. I could not say for sure. What I recall is,
19 I mean, I am taking it as read that I was coming from
20 round the William Street area maybe or
21 Rossville Street/William Street area.
22 Q. We can see in paragraph 18 that you describe
23 seeing three or four soldiers. Paragraph 16 seems to
24 be at a point in time before you saw the soldiers. At
25 that time you were hearing shooting before the soldiers
1 arrived; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that would be --
3 Q. Did it seem to you as if the shooting was in
4 Glenfada Park North itself or somewhere outside
5 Glenfada Park North?
6 A. I mean, my best recollection is that it was
7 in that vicinity. Whether it was within the park or
8 just outside the park, I could not tell you.
9 Q. Could I show you P428: this is a photograph
10 taken from the Rossville Street Flats. It was taken on
11 Bloody Sunday and it shows clearly the middle yard
12 there and then the yard closest to the exit to
13 Abbey Park which, as you say, is the yard you now think
14 you were more likely to be in. We can clearly see in
15 the photograph that the fencing that borders these
16 yards which is quite high, presumably you were looking
17 through the slats in the fence, were you?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Let us go back to AG52.3, paragraph 18, down
20 to the bottom of the page. You say the next I think
21 you recall was soldiers coming through into
22 Glenfada Park North. You say there were three or four
23 soldiers.
24 You say:
25 "They ran into, but stopped before they came
1 out of the northeastern alleyway."
2 So your recollection is that the soldiers
3 just paused in the alleyway on the edge of
4 Glenfada Park North?
5 A. Yeah, I mean, what I would say is that I was
6 taken -- I was sneaked from jumping up and down behind
7 a bin and looking through the holes in the fence and
8 going back to where we were. That is what it appeared
9 to be.
10 Q. You described these soldiers as being on the
11 rampage and pent up; what do you mean by that?
12 A. You could clearly hear shouting with accents
13 which were -- basically it was English accents which
14 would not have been familiar in our street. You could
15 hear shouting and roaring going about, so that was
16 giving you the impression of that.
17 Q. Can you remember what they were shouting?
18 A. Not very clearly.
19 Q. Did all these soldiers have rifles as far as
20 you could see?
21 A. To be honest, I never looked. When I seen
22 them I never looked that closely, but I imagine they
23 would have.
24 Q. Your memory does not -- when you think back,
25 you do not get an image of soldiers actually holding
1 weapons?
2 A. I did not stare too long.
3 Q. You did not actually see any of these
4 soldiers shoot into the courtyard of
5 Glenfada Park North, did you?
6 A. I never seen, no.
7 Q. You say at the end of paragraph 19 that you
8 do not recall the soldiers being at the northeast
9 entrance for very long:
10 "After that I think they were milling about,
11 perhaps looking inside the yards in
12 Glenfada Park North."
13 When you say you think they were "milling
14 about", did you actually see the soldiers move into
15 Glenfada Park North itself?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If we go back to P209 and if we could expand
18 the area encompassing Glenfada Park North, please.
19 This is the entrance where you would have seen the
20 soldiers. There is the middle yard, the fencing that
21 borders the middle yard, and the fencing that borders
22 the final yard that is just before the southwest exit
23 to Abbey Park. If we could remove my arrows, please.
24 You have told us you think now you were more
25 likely in that last yard. Looking at this, whereabouts
1 would you have been in the yard; would you have been in
2 one side or in the middle, the left-hand, can you
3 recall?
4 A. Yeah, there was two, basically there was two
5 bins underneath the -- I imagine it must have been the
6 kitchen window and we were crouched up behind them,
7 which was maybe 4 or 5, 6 foot away from the actual
8 fence.
9 Q. And the kitchen windows in these flats would
10 have been on the left-hand side of each flat, but from
11 where you were, were you conscious of people, of
12 civilians at the gable end of Glenfada Park North where
13 I have just put an arrow?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can we go back, please, to paragraph 20, but
16 on the part of the paragraph on AG52.4, if we could
17 highlight the top down to paragraph 24.
18 You describe in the second half of
19 paragraph 20 -- you start the paragraph with a
20 recollection of a man shouting to someone to get down,
21 but you continue:
22 "At this time the shots in our area seemed to
23 be getting fewer in number, although I could still hear
24 some shooting further away."
25 When you say "shots in our area", are you
1 referring to shots fired in Glenfada Park North itself?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In 1972 were you able to tell the difference
4 between a high velocity and a low velocity shot?
5 A. At the time I would have guessed, I could,
6 yes.
7 Q. Would you have been able to say when the army
8 was firing or when the IRA were firing?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You go on in paragraph 21 to say that you
11 could hear English voices shouting. Then you say:
12 "I think I also heard a woman saying that
13 someone had been hit."
14 Were you aware of anybody running past across
15 your line of vision in the direction of Abbey Park?
16 A. At different times from where we were
17 crouched down you could hear people shouting and when
18 you took, when you put your head up to look out at
19 different times you seen different things. I did see a
20 few people at different times running past the
21 backyard. I was aware of some voices from the other
22 side of the wall of the backyard and also there was
23 people in the doorway of the house at different times.
24 Q. Could we have P680, please? This photograph
25 was taken on Bloody Sunday. The photographer is
1 standing on the other side of the northwest entry into
2 Glenfada Park North and looking across, so he would be
3 looking across to the fence behind which you would have
4 been hiding. What we can see there are three bodies on
5 the other side of the fence: one just here, one lying
6 on the pavement and the legs of the third body here.
7 At any time when you were sheltering behind
8 this fence were you aware of people on the ground on
9 the other side of the fence?
10 A. No.
11 Q. If we go back again to AG52.4, paragraphs 22
12 to 25. You say in paragraph 22:
13 "I then heard three shots which sounded very
14 close to us. These shots sounded slightly different
15 from the shots I had heard previously. The previous
16 shots had hit masonry and had a certain ring to them.
17 These three shots had no ring to them. I thought that
18 the impact was a couple of yards to our right, i.e.
19 further east, towards the southeast entrance of
20 Glenfada Park North."
21 You say:
22 "I think that the three shots were spaced and
23 occurred within, perhaps, a 10-second interval. We
24 then knew that people were getting shot. I had not,
25 though, seen either the shots being fired or anyone
1 being hit."
2 Is that a memory you still have with you, of
3 hearing three shots to the right of you?
4 A. Fairly clearly. There seemed to be quiet for
5 a wee while and then in between you could hear -- at
6 that time you could still hear people shouting from
7 different yards and from different houses and even from
8 the balconies, and then there was another three --
9 I can remember it very clearly -- there was another
10 three shots which, like some of the previous shots,
11 I think they had been fired into that area, you could
12 hear a kind of ring with them or I imagined, I suppose,
13 that they were maybe hitting walls and things around.
14 But then there was three that sounded fairly close --
15 and they were very close together, but they sounded
16 very -- both closer and more muffled, if you know what
17 I mean.
18 Q. After these three shots, did you hear anyone
19 calling out, did you hear people calling out something
20 like "someone has been hit"?
21 A. There were people shouting, I mean, it was
22 not total silence, there was people shouting and you
23 could hear different comments at different stages
24 there, getting shouted and all kind of phrases.
25 Q. Could we have AM86.10, please: this is a
1 photograph which is appended to the statement of a
2 witness called William McCartney who has not yet been
3 called to give evidence to the Tribunal.
4 Mr McCartney's parents actually lived in the middle
5 flat of Glenfada Park North, the flat that you
6 originally thought you might have been sheltering in
7 the yard of.
8 What this photograph shows are the three
9 windows to that flat that face onto the yard. To the
10 left off the screen would be the door. What we have in
11 the middle is the bathroom with a frosted window. The
12 bedroom here and here the kitchen. We can tell it is
13 the kitchen because you can just see the tap here.
14 There is a better photograph of the kitchen window, but
15 I will not put it up. (For the transcript it is at
16 AM86.12.)
17 The reason I have shown you this photograph
18 is that one of the soldiers who was in
19 Glenfada Park North was called Soldier H and says he
20 fired a large number of shots in Glenfada Park North.
21 Can we have P1.12, please -- if we just try P12. This
22 is a trajectory photograph showing the bullets that
23 Soldier H says he fired.
24 Can you see the line which carries the
25 number 19?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Soldier H says he fired 19 bullets in the
3 direction of what would be the McCartneys' flat, so it
4 would be in the direction of the yard where you
5 originally thought you were sheltering and very close
6 to where you now think you were sheltering.
7 What Soldier H says in his evidence -- what
8 he has told in his evidence to the Widgery Tribunal is
9 that he heard a shot, looked to where he had heard it
10 and then saw a rifle muzzle sticking out of a frosted
11 window on the ground floor of the south of
12 Glenfada Park; that would seem to be the bathroom
13 window. He said the muzzle was protruding through the
14 open top pane of the window and he then fired 19 shots
15 at a silhouette that he could see behind the window.
16 Those shots would have been fired in the direction that
17 you were sheltering.
18 What Soldier H says in his evidence to this
19 Inquiry is that he estimates he would have been able to
20 fire the 19 shots within about 30 seconds.
21 Were you, at any time you were sheltering in
22 that yard, aware of a gun muzzle sticking out of a
23 ground floor window?
24 A. I never seen nothing like that.
25 Q. If Soldier H is right in what he told
1 Lord Widgery a shot would have been fired from a window
2 to your right in the direction of the soldiers that you
3 saw. Do you have a recollection of hearing a shot
4 fired close-by to your right?
5 A. I have no recollection of shots coming from
6 anywhere, if you like, behind me or the buildings
7 around me. I would have only a recollection of shots
8 being in the area, but not -- I could not give a clear
9 definition of where any of them came from.
10 Q. Did you at any time hear glass smashing?
11 A. I cannot recall.
12 Q. At any time that you were sheltering in this
13 yard, did you hear any explosions in
14 Glenfada Park North itself?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let us go back to AG52.4, paragraphs 22 down
17 to 25 again. In paragraph 23 you say that you and Gary
18 decided to run straight home and as you ran out of the
19 yard, you recall seeing the four soldiers still at the
20 northeastern entrance to Glenfada Park North:
21 "They were keeping themselves hidden,
22 although I could see their heads as we ran."
23 As you ran off, was there still any shooting
24 in Glenfada Park North itself?
25 A. I cannot recall. It was a heads down and
1 running as quick as you could, I never paid much more
2 attention than that.
3 Q. Did you think you would have tried to run
4 home if there had been shooting nearby?
5 A. My best recollection is that we thought there
6 was a good time to make a run for it, which is what we
7 did. I do not know if that means that the shooting had
8 stopped or there was a lull or it was over, but we
9 just, at the time, thought it was time to get out of
10 there and run.
11 Q. Can we look at your map AG52.6: you mark
12 there the route that you took, which is out of the yard
13 and then to the left and cutting through
14 Glenfada Park South.
15 When you came out of that yard, do you
16 remember seeing any bodies on the ground near the
17 southwest exit?
18 A. I do not recall any.
19 Q. The last matter I want to ask you about is
20 paragraph 25 where you talk about what happened after
21 Bloody Sunday. You say that you went down to
22 William Street the day after Bloody Sunday, despite
23 your parents telling you not to go out, and you
24 remember going into what was then a shoe shop called
25 McLaughlins. It had a wooden porch on the wall of
1 which was written in big black marker "ha ha ha, hee
2 hee hee, we have got 13 more than you. 1 Para." That
3 is a very clear memory in your mind, is it?
4 A. Very, very, very distinct.
5 Q. Can we have P250 again, another photograph
6 taken on Bloody Sunday? Is this the shoe shop you are
7 referring to?
8 A. Yeah, I think so.
9 Q. When you say "porch", what do you mean?
10 A. There was like a -- just a step in, it would
11 not have been a flat door onto the front street, there
12 was like a step in, like a small front porch of a
13 house, only it was a shop, it was actually leading into
14 the front of a shop.
15 Q. It does not look as if there is a porch on
16 that photograph, does it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is it possible that this message was written
19 somewhere on another part of the shop?
20 A. It was in, it was on the left-hand side of
21 one of them buildings along that part of William Street
22 in the porch, whichever one takes a steps in there.
23 I took it to be McLaughlins, but I may have -- because
24 that is McLaughlins is always a shop that I would
25 associate with being in that area of William Street.
1 It was in one of the porches just along there.
2 Q. You can also see in that photograph a
3 chemist's there. On that day, the day after
4 Bloody Sunday, would you have gone wandering along
5 William Street?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We can see the chemist's there. If I can
8 show you P553: this is a photograph that was taken,
9 and it was taken by a Mr Porter who had a shop,
10 I think, next door to the chemist's. This was written
11 on the shutter of the chemist's shop and says:
12 "Paras were here and they fucking hammered
13 fuck out of you"; do you recall seeing anything like
14 that the day after Bloody Sunday?
15 A. Yes, I recall seeing something like that, but
16 in my mind it was not that, but it was of a very
17 similar sort of nature, it was wrote on, like a wooden
18 sorta part of the inner porch, if I can recall rightly,
19 or that is what it appeared to be at the time.
20 Q. Thank you, those are all my questions.
21 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
22 LORD GIFFORD: My name is Anthony Gifford and
23 I represent the family of James Wray. In fairness to
24 you, I only want to clarify one matter arising from
25 your statement and your map about the yard you were
1 in. Could we look at AG52.3, paragraph 15: this is
2 you speaking to Eversheds and recalling what you could
3 recall from your young age at the time.
4 You said:
5 "We ran into the yard. The yard is hatched
6 on the attached map (grid reference H14)."
7 That we have seen is indeed the house nearest
8 the alleyway. So you were saying to Eversheds that you
9 ran into the most westerly of the three houses?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Three yards?
12 A. I believe so, yes.
13 Q. I am not quite sure because it is not
14 explained by your statement. If we look at AG52.5: do
15 you see the upper arrow with the circle which
16 illustrates the house of your relative?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Can you help us as to why that second arrow
19 in Glenfada Park is marked in that place?
20 A. No, I think it is quite simply, it is too far
21 down, it should be up a bit.
22 Q. Whoever marked it, it is a mistake, it is not
23 marked in the right place?
24 A. Mmm.
25 Q. Staying on that photograph, we see that the
1 yard runs the length of the house. Can you remember
2 were you more towards the west wall or the east wall as
3 we look at it; if you cannot remember, please say so?
4 A. Sorry -- I know we were not actually that far
5 from the house, we were certainly a lot closer to the
6 house than we were to the fence.
7 Q. It looks as if the entry to the yard is on
8 the west side, the side towards the alley?
9 A. Yeah, possibly.
10 Q. So you were somewhere in that area?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
14 MR GLASGOW: Mr Green, two matters, please,
15 if I may. My name is Glasgow and I represent some of
16 the soldiers. Could we look again at the last page of
17 your statement, AG52.4. Just the last paragraph, the
18 message which you remember. That, although you were 8
19 when you saw it, really stuck firmly in your young
20 mind, did it?
21 A. It was very clear, the message that was wrote
22 on the wall.
23 Q. At that age and as you began to grow up, did
24 you make any sense of it; did it mean anything to you,
25 as an 8-year-old, those words?
1 A. It was an insult.
2 Q. You thought they were insulting, and that
3 struck you even as an 8-year-old?
4 A. It certainly did.
5 Q. Let me just ask you two questions about it:
6 two things, and they may sound very obvious and forgive
7 me if they sound rude: First of all, whoever wrote
8 those words on the wall had to have been in
9 William Street at the time when they wrote them, did
10 they not? That would have been obvious even to an
11 8-year-old. The person who wrote them must have been
12 standing in the position where you saw the message?
13 A. At some stage, yes.
14 Q. Well, he had to be there --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- when he wrote the message. The message
17 was not on a board that was loose, it was fixed to a
18 building?
19 A. Quite, yes.
20 Q. And whoever wrote those words must have known
21 that 13 people had been shot at the time when he wrote
22 them, must he not?
23 A. I would have imagined so.
24 Q. Did that strike you, even as an 8-year-old?
25 Whoever it was who wrote that on the wall must have
1 known there were 13 people killed and he must have
2 known it at the time when he was still in
3 William Street; did that logic strike you as an
4 8-year-old?
5 A. I would say, no, not as an 8-year-old, it
6 probably did not.
7 Q. The last matter: can we look at the
8 photograph, please, Mr Green, at AG52.5 and can we
9 enlarge the central part of Glenfada Park North? You
10 have told us you think the black marking is in the
11 wrong position: did you intend only one part of
12 whatever courtyard you were in to be marked; did you
13 intend it to be just a little square like that or were
14 you trying to tell Eversheds this was the courtyard
15 that you were standing in behind the fence; can you
16 remember?
17 A. No, I was -- I had indicated that I was in
18 a backyard along that row.
19 Q. The point that is being made with you, so you
20 can deal with it, Mr Green: you have been shown very
21 fairly and accurately that there are three backyards?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And as marked about one-third of the area of
24 one of them is blacked out. You have told us it is in
25 the wrong place. I am sure we all agree with that.
1 Can you explain why it is that only one-third
2 of the area of the courtyard that is marked is blacked
3 out?
4 A. No idea.
5 Q. You did not do the marking yourself, or did
6 you -- I am sorry, I should not have led you on that,
7 I should have asked you: did you mark it yourself?
8 A. I do not recall.
9 Q. You do not recall one way or the other?
10 A. No, it was two years ago now, I cannot
11 remember.
12 Q. While you have it there in front of you --
13 you will have control of it and when you touch the
14 screen you will be able to mark an arrow for us --
15 could you mark on that photograph where it was that you
16 believe the three shots that you particularly remember
17 landed; would that be possible or would it not be
18 possible?
19 A. Well, I mean I am telling you I heard the
20 sounds that I felt were coming from, which would have
21 been my right-hand side.
22 Q. Could you give any help to the Tribunal as to
23 where you believe on that photograph the three shots
24 landed?
25 A. I mean you are asking me to guess, and I --
1 Q. I was not that, I am sorry if it sounded like
2 that, Mr Green. Again I am not challenging your
3 honesty at all, I meant what I said: can you help the
4 Tribunal by marking on that photograph where you
5 believe the three shots landed; if you cannot, I will
6 not press it?
7 A. I am afraid I cannot.
8 Q. You cannot. In that case, may we look again
9 at AG52.4, and could we enlarge paragraph 22? What has
10 been written for you to sign is:
11 "I thought that the impact was a couple of
12 yards to our right, i.e. further east, towards the
13 southeast entrance of Glenfada Park North."
14 Did you intend to convey to this Tribunal
15 with that degree of precision where you thought the
16 three impacts were or has that just been written for
17 you?
18 A. No, I intended to convey that whilst
19 crouching in the yard there, that after it going fairly
20 quiet for a while, that three shots that sounded fairly
21 close to me -- when I say "close", I mean, I had the
22 impression that they were to my right-hand side.
23 Q. You had the impression that they were to your
24 right-hand side?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you know, for example, how many yards
2 away they were or in which --
3 A. Well, I mean, I guessed that fairly close
4 would have been within -- I mean, on writing it at the
5 time, I have a memory of them being fairly close. To
6 actually put that and to describe that, "fairly close"
7 would probably mean within a few yards.
8 Q. What I am asking you, I hope not unfairly and
9 I certainly do not mean to be rude, is why when I show
10 you a photograph and ask you if you can help, you
11 cannot, without guessing, put a mark anywhere on that
12 photograph at all, but when you are asked questions in
13 this interviewing process, you appeared to have been
14 able to identify a location with quite extraordinary
15 precision.
16 Do you want to comment on that at all?
17 A. Well, if you ask me to put a mark on a
18 photograph again, using my best recollections I will
19 use the same as I have written there, I will guess
20 several yards to the right to where I believe I was.
21 Q. You will guess several yards to the right.
22 Do you know what is meant by the term
23 "cognitive interviewing"?
24 A. Not very clearly, no.
25 Q. Nor do I. Perhaps we are better off that
1 way, sir.
2 MR RAWAT: Can we keep paragraph 22 on the
3 screen, please? The best you can do about how close
4 these shots were was to say within a few yards, an
5 answer you gave to my learned friend Mr Glasgow a few
6 moments ago. Can we look at paragraph 22 and what you
7 actually say about the three shots:
8 "I then heard three shots which sounded very
9 close to us. These shots sounded slightly different
10 from the shots I had heard previously."
11 Is it still your recollection that the three
12 shots sounded different to the shots you had heard
13 previously?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. "The previous shots had hit masonry and had a
16 certain ring to them."
17 It is your recollection that previous shots
18 had hit masonry. You remember the sound of shots
19 hitting masonry; is that right?
20 A. I believe they were hitting masonry, it
21 sounded like there was a ring off them.
22 Q. You go on to say:
23 "These three shots had no ring to them."
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. My learned friend Mr Glasgow asks you to try
1 and help the Tribunal by indicating where the shots
2 landed. What you say is:
3 "I think that the three shots were spaced and
4 occurred within, perhaps, a 10-second interval. We
5 then knew that people were getting shot."
6 Did you actually hear the shots land?
7 A. There was a -- I mean, my best recollection
8 of it is that where you were listening to a shot then a
9 ping, there was three shots fairly close to each other
10 and there was no ping off them as such, it sounded more
11 like a, like a thud than a ping.
12 Q. Would it be fair to summarise this bit of
13 your evidence by saying that these three shots did not
14 sound like shots that had struck masonry?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you, I have no further questions.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Green, thank you very much
18 indeed for coming here to assist this Tribunal?
19 A. Thank you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR JOHN MICHAEL MCCOURT, sworn
22 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCourt, I see you looking
24 at me. You probably know exactly what I am going to
25 say, I say it to all the witnesses: I am the Chairman
1 and the questions will come from the barristers in
2 front of me. Do try and remember to keep fairly close
3 to that microphone so we can all hear what you have to
4 say.
5 MS McGAHEY: Mr McCourt, do you have in front
6 of you, please, a copy of the statement that you made
7 to this Inquiry and signed on 26th April 1999?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
10 the best of your knowledge and belief?
11 A. They are, yes.
12 Q. Everybody here has had the chance to read
13 your statement, so I will only ask you about parts of
14 it. The first page you will see is on the screen in
15 front of you at the moment. You tell us in outline
16 that you joined the march after attending a family
17 funeral?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And you sent your family on to your wife's
20 grandmother's house, which was in Glenfada Park North.
21 You went on yourself to barrier 14. You did not take
22 part in the rioting?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But walked down Rossville Street towards your
25 wife's grandmother's house to join the family. If we
1 could pick up your statement at paragraphs 6 to 7,
2 please: you say that you made your way southwards down
3 Rossville Street to join the family. You had just
4 reached the alleyway in the northeastern corner of
5 Glenfada Park. You have marked that position "A" on
6 your map, when you heard armoured cars and the sounds
7 of hundreds of people running down Rossville Street.
8 In paragraph 7 you saw a soldier on
9 Rossville Street, about 50 feet north of your position
10 in the alleyway, aiming in your direction with a rubber
11 bullet gun.
12 Were you actually inside the alleyway when
13 this happened?
14 A. I was.
15 Q. You would not have been able to say very far
16 north up Rossville Street?
17 A. No, just directly across from it.
18 Q. You are looking across Rossville Street?
19 A. Slightly to the left down towards the bottom
20 of Rossville Street.
21 Q. And onto the wasteground we have called the
22 Eden Place and Pilot Row wasteground?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was the soldier that you saw in
25 Rossville Street itself?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. Did you see any other soldiers around him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. He fired a rubber bullet, you say, at you?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. Did you have a stone in your hand?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Any other weapon?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you moving towards the soldier?
11 A. No, standing looking at him, just.
12 Q. Did you do anything to justify the shot being
13 fired at you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was there anybody between you and the
16 soldier?
17 A. Not that I seen, no.
18 Q. In fact how widely could you see?
19 A. There could have been people there, but I was
20 too busy watching him.
21 Q. Could we go over the page, please, paragraphs
22 8 to 9: you say that you ran into Glenfada Park North
23 and headed towards your wife's grandmother's house?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And there was pandemonium and people were
1 running, trying to run through the alleyway in the
2 southwestern corner, which is the alleyway that leads
3 into Abbey Park?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. You could hear shots which seemed to be
6 coming from all directions. Were you aware of shooting
7 within the courtyard of Glenfada Park?
8 A. No, I could not say for sure that the shots
9 came from actually inside it. I heard shots, but I had
10 my back to where the shots were coming from, so I did
11 not actually see anybody firing the shots.
12 Q. So did the shots appear to be coming from the
13 north of you?
14 A. From behind me as I was running towards --
15 Q. You said that you were certain that the shots
16 were aimed shots?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Was that because there were significant
19 intervals between each shot?
20 A. Yeah, single shots with a gap between them.
21 Q. You tell us that you are familiar with guns
22 and had held a firearms certificate for a number of
23 years?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But you could not tell whether the shots were
1 rubber bullets or live ammunition?
2 A. Oh, they were live ammunition, it was not
3 rubber bullets. A rubber bullet makes a different
4 sound.
5 Q. If you look at the middle of that paragraph,
6 you say in the sentence I am highlighting:
7 "I could not however at this stage say
8 whether they were rubber bullets or live ammunition."
9 A. I did say that at the time, yes, but on
10 reflection it was a sharp crack, not a dull thud which
11 is a rubber bullet gun.
12 Q. You then describe in paragraph 9 your wife's
13 grandmother's house and you think it was either the
14 second or the third from the south end of the row?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I would like to show you a photograph and see
17 whether you can identify the house from that
18 photograph. Could we have EP21.2, please: this is an
19 aerial shot as you can see taken from the east looking
20 into Glenfada Park North. We know later in your
21 statement you tell us that you go into the yard of the
22 house to which you are heading. We can see on the
23 picture wooden fences that surround the yards.
24 Looking at that photograph, does that help
25 you to know into which yard it was?
1 A. The second house in from the left-hand side,
2 this one here (marked with a yellow arrow - AM144.7).
3 Q. So is that the yard, the one to which I am
4 pointing now?
5 A. Yeah, number 21.
6 Q. Could that image be saved, please, as AM144.7
7 and could we go back to your statement at AM144.2,
8 please, and highlight paragraphs 10 to 12? You say in
9 paragraph 10 that the panic continued as you made your
10 way to your grandmother's house and you heard people
11 shouting "do not shoot. Lie down" and "get out of my
12 way".
13 Did you know then why people were shouting
14 "do not shoot"?
15 A. Yeah, they were being fired on.
16 Q. Could you see soldiers firing on them?
17 A. Not actually in the square at that time
18 because I was running away from them, but I assumed it
19 was the fella that fired at me that had come into the
20 square after us. But I did not see the soldiers
21 shooting, no.
22 Q. You say you noticed a young boy whom you
23 pulled into the yard with you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In paragraph 11 you say you called out to the
1 people who you could see outside, told them to lie
2 there and keep still and not move.
3 Do you remember now where those people were?
4 A. There was some actually lying outside the
5 fencing and I could see some lying actually in the
6 square and there was some down to my right, maybe down
7 towards that alleyway.
8 Q. I would like to return, please, to the
9 photograph I have shown you, it has been saved as
10 AM144.6. If you have control of the screen could you
11 mark for us in a different colour where the people were
12 to whom you were speaking?
13 A. Some people were lying here; some were here
14 and some were actually lying beside the fence (marked
15 with a blue and purple arrows - AM144.7).
16 Q. I think a mark was not made on the second one
17 to which you pointed, there are people ...
18 A. Just around that square here. Just over a
19 bit, round there.
20 Q. The first time you made the mark, you made
21 the mark slightly closer to the car park markings that
22 we can see; is that where the arrow should be or are
23 you happy with it where it is?
24 A. No, it should be a wee bit more over, here.
25 Q. Take the first two purple arrows off. Do the
1 two blue arrows and the purple arrow now mark the areas
2 where you saw people lying?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you speaking to the people closest to
5 you, where the blue arrow?
6 A. Only in so much as I was calling out to "lie
7 down, do not move", that is all.
8 Q. Could we save that again under the same
9 reference as AM144.7? When that is done could we
10 return to your statement, please, at AM144.2?
11 In paragraph 11 you say:
12 "Jim Wray, who was killed that day, would
13 have been among the group of people that I was calling
14 to."
15 How do you know that?
16 A. Well, simply because I had known Jim Wray,
17 not as a personal friend or anything like that, but
18 I knew him to see. He had been on the right-hand side
19 down at the entrance way when I -- after the shooting
20 had finished when I come back out, that is where he
21 was.
22 Q. You say he had been on the right-hand side
23 down at the entrance way when you came back out?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. When you came back out from where?
1 A. From 21 Glenfada. I was in the backyard
2 lying.
3 Q. Do you mean you saw him dead afterwards?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Did you see him before he was shot?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You have told us that from where you were you
8 could see a number of people lying in Glenfada Park.
9 Did you have a wider view of what was going
10 on in the courtyard itself?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I would like to show you a few photographs
13 and see whether any of these accord with your
14 recollection of what you saw.
15 Could we have P434, please. This photograph
16 is taken from the southeast entrance into Glenfada Park
17 looking in. You have identified that as being the yard
18 from which you were looking?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That is the middle of the three sets of
21 fences we can see in this picture. Do you remember,
22 obviously looking from that direction, seeing a scene
23 like this?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We can see in the foreground of the picture a
1 group kneeling around the body of the man we believe
2 there to be Michael Kelly; do you remember seeing a
3 group around a body in this area?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. A further person appears to be on the ground
6 in the background that I have pointed out with a red
7 arrow; do you remember seeing anybody there?
8 A. No, I do not recall that. The only other
9 body I recall was lying over in the entrance way.
10 Q. You say another body lying over in the
11 entrance way?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. If you have control of the screen and my
14 arrows could be taken off, can you indicate where it
15 was that you saw another body?
16 A. Yes, over here -- well, you actually cannot
17 see the entrance way on this map, but it is on the very
18 left-hand corner, top of the picture.
19 Q. The entrance way into Abbey Park?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If we show you another photograph, P439. You
22 can see two people, one lying on the pavement and one
23 either half on or half off, just on the edge of the
24 pavement in the middle of the southern row of
25 Glenfada Park North.
1 A. Right.
2 Q. We can see the legs of a further person on
3 the right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is taken from the northwest corner of
6 Glenfada Park and it is looking down, in fact, the row
7 from which you would have been looking?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Do you remember seeing people in those
10 positions?
11 A. Just the one, this one here with the legs
12 showing out.
13 Q. The one with the blue arrow?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You do not recall at the time seeing the two
16 marked out with the purple arrow, the two in the middle
17 of the picture?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When did you see the person I have marked
20 with the blue, the person on the right?
21 A. After all the commotion had died down, the
22 shooting, I went back outside because I was concerned,
23 I had a nephew running about that area at the time.
24 And I walked over and this fella, Wray, was lying on
25 his back on the pad, so they must have turned him over
1 to see whether he was alive or dead, I do not know, but
2 he was on his back.
3 Q. At the time you saw him everything was over?
4 A. Oh, it was all over, yeah.
5 Q. When you looked out while the events, the
6 shooting was still going on, do you remember people
7 lying down in the area that we see now marked with the
8 purple arrows?
9 A. Yes, but I did not know at the time whether
10 they were wounded or simply lying there or dead or
11 what.
12 Q. Could we have another photograph, please:
13 P436? Do you recognise anyone in that picture?
14 A. No.
15 Q. The person I am indicating on the right we
16 know to be James Wray, known as Jim Wray. Do you
17 recognise him now?
18 A. No, not from that photograph, no.
19 Q. This photograph is taken at the opposite side
20 of Glenfada Park from the one in which you were. Do
21 you remember seeing a group of people carrying a body
22 across Glenfada Park?
23 A. No, I think at that stage I was actually
24 inside number 21 Glenfada and after that incident had
25 happened I had come back out again.
1 Q. You say it was after that incident that you
2 had come back out again?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you just guessing?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What makes you think it was after that
7 incident?
8 A. Because all the soldiers had left the area;
9 there was no shooting, no rioting, nothing going on.
10 Q. But at the time you were lying behind the
11 fence calling to people to lie down and stay still;
12 what else was going on in that courtyard that you could
13 see?
14 A. Just a lot of squealing, people running
15 about, people trying to get away.
16 Q. And you do not remember anybody being carried
17 across?
18 A. No.
19 Q. It seems that in 1972 you made a statement on
20 tape. I understand you no longer recall doing that?
21 A. Well, this is what I pointed out earlier on.
22 This is under a Joe McCourt. I have a cousin called
23 Joe McCourt; whether he made it and used my address,
24 I just do not know, no. I never made that statement.
25 Q. If we have a look at the transcript. I know
1 you have had an opportunity to look at this yourself.
2 Could we have X2.35.17? This is a transcript taken
3 from the tape. You have listened to the tape, have you
4 not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you think it is your voice on it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Are you sure about that?
9 A. Not 99 per cent sure, no. I do not recall
10 ever making this statement to anybody at that time.
11 Q. When the tape is played, is it actually clear
12 whether the name given is Joe McCourt or John McCourt?
13 A. No, it is not clear.
14 Q. So this might be a transcription error and it
15 might be John?
16 A. Possible, I am not sure. I can only say that
17 the majority of the statement seems to be corresponding
18 with what I says, but the top part, I did not actually
19 see anybody killed.
20 Q. I will go through it with you now. Although
21 we do not have it actually marked on this transcript,
22 it does appear an address was given on the tape; and
23 that was your address, was it not?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. If we look at the bottom of the transcript
1 you say, or whoever gives the interview, said:
2 "At this time I was standing in my wife's
3 granny's kitchen."
4 It does sound as if it was likely to have
5 been you who made the statement, is it not?
6 A. I just do not recall it. I am being honest,
7 I just do not remember. It is very similar to the
8 statement I have said, but I did not see anybody
9 killed. They are already dead when I seen them.
10 Q. It is that I would like to ask you about
11 because at the top of this statement you say:
12 "I was in Glenfada Park on Sunday when I seen
13 five British soldiers run into the park."
14 Do you remember seeing five soldiers?
15 A. No, only three.
16 Q. The first soldier you saw was the one who
17 fired the rubber bullet gun at you?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Where are the other two?
20 A. They were at the other end of Glenfada, they
21 had some people up against the wall.
22 Q. When they were arresting people?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. You then go on:
25 "They fired on four fellas carrying a wounded
1 civilian. They fired at the wounded civilian and hit
2 him on the head."
3 Do you have any recollection of that
4 happening?
5 A. No.
6 Q. "These four blokes run with the civilian and
7 had to drop him at the far side of Glenfada Park."
8 Do you have any recollection of that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. "These five soldiers then went to the corner
11 where there was about 30 civilians standing. They
12 ordered the civilians round the corner and one of the
13 soldiers hit a fella in the mouth with his rifle."
14 Do you now remember soldiers carrying out
15 arrests?
16 A. Yeah, I remember, yes. I also saw one of
17 them hitting a woman, but I did not see them hitting a
18 fella.
19 Q. Your recollection is now that you only saw a
20 few people being arrested at the gable --
21 A. Well, I do not know how many was in that
22 group.
23 Q. You then say that the soldiers:
24 "... kicked another fella, attacked a woman,
25 began to kick and hit her. Three fellas then broke away
1 from the crowd and ran. The soldier lifted his rifle
2 and fired at them."
3 Do you remember anything of that?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. "I was unable to see whether he hit them
6 because they were then out of sight. This soldier then
7 ran over into the corner of Glenfada Park."
8 Do you remember any soldier running across
9 into the corner of Glenfada Park?
10 A. No.
11 Q. "At this time I was standing in my wife's
12 granny's kitchen. I looked out the window and seen two
13 fellas lying dead."
14 Do you remember seeing that?
15 A. No, I did not know they were dead until
16 I actually came outside into the square.
17 Q. Do you think the people you are referring to
18 are the people in Glenfada Park?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. "A first aid girl came over and showed the
21 Red Cross, the Red Cross on her sleeve, but the soldier
22 ignored it and fired at her. If the girl had not of
23 threw herself on top of one of the dead fellas, this
24 soldier would have killed her."
25 Do you remember anything of that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. "The soldier then ran away."
3 Your wife has also given a statement to this
4 Inquiry. I would like you to look at that, if you
5 would, please. Could we have AM142.1 on the screen,
6 please, and could you highlight paragraph 9, please?
7 Your wife earlier in this statement has said that she
8 was looking out of her grandmother's house onto the
9 Abbey Park side. She says as she was watching:
10 "A wee nurse ran past the window running
11 (north) in the direction of the Columbcille Court. She
12 was wearing a navy coat with a white nurse's overcoat.
13 She had black hair tied in a pony tail and was waving a
14 white hanky. I cannot recall whether she was saying or
15 shouting anything."
16 Over the page she says:
17 "I looked to my right and I could see two
18 soldiers."
19 She says she has marked their position with a
20 "C". In fact the "C" does not appear, but it is clear
21 from her map that what she is saying is that the
22 soldiers are at the north end of the western block of
23 Glenfada Park on the Abbey Park side so that as she
24 looked up, up the block of Glenfada Park, she could see
25 them at the top:
1 "By this time, I had opened the window and
2 was looking out to my right up the alley. I cannot
3 describe the soldiers in detail. They were standing
4 side by side. Both were carrying weapons but I cannot
5 describe these. I particularly noticed the soldier on
6 the left-hand side as I looked at them. He was holding
7 his gun at about chest height, pointing approximately
8 in the direction of the nurse. I particularly
9 concentrated on him. I cannot recall how the other
10 soldier was holding his weapon but I am sure he had
11 one. The soldier on the left seemed to be about 5 feet
12 10 tall and was bigger than the other."
13 Paragraph 11 and 12, please, she goes on:
14 "I was worried that the soldiers were going
15 to shoot the nurse and I turned back into the flat and
16 shouted to my husband John 'I think they are going to
17 shoot the girl'. John tried to get out of the window,
18 but I held tight to his legs and stopped him from
19 getting out."
20 Do you have any recollection at all?
21 A. Of that?
22 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You do. Do you recollect seeing the
25 soldiers --
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- the nurse?
3 A. No, I did not see the soldier, I was standing
4 on the right-hand side of the window, she was on the
5 left-hand side and she could see up the street. I was
6 looking this way. All I could see was where
7 Mr McKinney was lying dead.
8 Q. You have said that you were on the right-hand
9 side of the window?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that as you look out the window from
12 outside?
13 A. No, from inside.
14 Q. From inside?
15 A. From the living room.
16 Q. If you were looking out towards Abbey Park
17 and your wife was next to you and you could see the
18 body of Mr McKinney, you would be looking down to the
19 left, would you not?
20 A. Towards the left.
21 Q. Left. So was your wife on your right?
22 A. She was on the left-hand side of the window
23 looking to the right.
24 Q. She was looking up towards the right?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. I see; you were looking diagonally across?
2 A. Both ways, cross-cutting.
3 Q. Do you remember trying to get out of the
4 window?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Why were you trying to do that?
7 A. Because I seen people hurt, I was wanting to
8 help them.
9 Q. If we go back it your statement at
10 paragraph 15, AM144.3, you there describe going in and
11 speaking to your wife. You say:
12 "She was in the living room of the house, the
13 window of which looks out onto Abbey Park. She said
14 that there was a boy lying dead outside, in Abbey Park,
15 and that he had been shot by the army."
16 Did you then go and look?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. You saw the body you believed to have been
19 that of Mr McKinney?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How do you know, incidentally, it was
22 Mr McKinney?
23 A. How do I know?
24 Q. Yes?
25 A. Because I worked with him.
1 Q. Did you recognise him?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From where you were?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Were there people around him when you saw
6 him?
7 A. There was a lot of people milling about,
8 yeah.
9 Q. From where you were you could still recognise
10 his face?
11 A. Yes, Mr McKinney was lying facing us. There
12 was a set of steps there, he was lying with his legs
13 pointed down towards the bottom of the steps so I could
14 see him.
15 Q. Did you see any soldiers at all?
16 A. No.
17 Q. -- that direction. You go on:
18 "She said the army had also been shooting at
19 the first aid boys who attended to him."
20 Do you remember that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. "She also said that she had seen a man", you
23 said "being carried out of a house in Abbey Park."
24 In fact, her statement suggests she had seen
25 a man carried into a house in Abbey Park; do you
1 remember that?
2 A. No, I did not see that, no.
3 Q. Do you remember anybody being carried into
4 Abbey Park?
5 A. No, I seen somebody being carried out, this
6 was after the commotion had died down and the ambulance
7 had arrived in the park, aye.
8 Q. You looked out of the window and saw to your
9 left a lad on the ground with people huddled around him
10 (you have marked that as "C"), but in fact your
11 recollection is that he was on the steps?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Just north of Abbey Park?
14 A. Just to the left of the window we were
15 looking out of, yes.
16 Q. Although you just described him there as a
17 lad on the ground you are certain that was
18 Gerard McKinney?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Those are all my questions.
21 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
22 LORD GIFFORD: My name is Anthony Gifford and
23 I represent the family of James Wray. There is a
24 passage in your statement, you were not referred to
25 it. Can I go to it, please, on AM144.2, paragraphs 11
1 to 14.
2 You are describing in this passage things
3 that you recall hearing and seeing while you were in
4 the yard of your wife's grandmother's house?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. If I can take you back to that period; I want
7 to try to get an idea of the passage of time. About
8 how long did you spend in the yard before going up to
9 the house itself?
10 A. Oh, roughly around 10 minutes, maybe less.
11 Q. 10 minutes?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you were in the yard behind the fence for
14 some little time. In that 10 minutes, within that
15 period of, say, 10 minutes how long was it before
16 shooting broke out in the square?
17 A. Well, the shooting had actually started
18 before I had actually got into the yard. When I had
19 got into the yard I had pulled this young lad along
20 with me and I made him lie down on the ground, and
21 there was a couple of dustbins there so I pulled them
22 in front of us to give us some sort of protection, but
23 I could still see out through the dustbins to my left
24 and straight over to my right.
25 Q. There is a point that you say in your
1 statement at paragraph 12:
2 "At the same instant I heard the sound of
3 two, perhaps three shots, which I instinctively knew
4 had been fired in the square."
5 A. This was just as we had got into the
6 backyard.
7 Q. Do I understand that although you had heard
8 shooting before, this was the first time that you had
9 heard shooting coming close to you in the square?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. Was that very soon after you got into the
12 yard or had there been a little interval?
13 A. Matter of seconds just.
14 Q. Seconds. And then during the remaining
15 minutes that you were in the square, describe what sort
16 of shooting was going on?
17 A. Just individual shots, individual cracks,
18 maybe 5, 10 seconds interval between them.
19 Q. There was shooting through most of the period
20 that you were in the yard?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. But individual shooting rather than volleys
23 of shots?
24 A. It was not indiscriminate, it was individual
25 shots.
1 Q. Individual shots. Thank you. You just
2 indicated to me that you only had a limited view out
3 into the square?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. If we go to P209, which has quite a good view
6 of the square, you might be able to help us. Can we
7 highlight the middle of the picture, the square? Using
8 that photograph to remind you, what areas of the square
9 were you able to see from your position behind the
10 bins?
11 A. Well, I was here and was able to see over to
12 the right-hand corner or left-hand corner, and over to
13 this right-hand corner. I could see all that square,
14 but I could not see this corner.
15 Q. Perhaps you could be given control again and
16 just mark a line with an arrow as to the direction of
17 your view.
18 A. (Indicating).
19 Q. And the other viewpoint?
20 A. (Indicating).
21 Q. There were parts of the centre of the square
22 which would have been out of your sight?
23 A. Well, to my left and to my right, yes.
24 Q. Between the blue arrow and the yellow arrow
25 you were able to see, is that what you are saying?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Outside that you could not?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can we save that image as AM144.8? Are we to
5 picture you behind the bins looking out through the
6 slats of the yard?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. So that your view was not a very clear one?
9 A. There was certain areas you would have had to
10 move your head to look between the gaps of the fencing.
11 Q. Were you right up against the slats?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you could see close between them?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The images which you recall are, first of
16 all, a soldier in the northeast corner in a kneeling
17 position pointing his gun towards the southeast; you
18 mean that?
19 A. This corner here (indicating).
20 Q. Down towards the opposite corner from you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Then you have another image, paragraph 14 --
23 perhaps we better go back to AM144.2, another image of
24 soldiers at the southeast corner and people with their
25 hands up against the wall.
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. It is after that that you go inside the
3 house?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Clearly the two images which you described in
6 paragraphs 13 and 14 are just images at different times
7 within those 10 minutes or so?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 Q. Maybe because you were not able to look out
10 clearly, but at times were you looking away and
11 cringing for cover?
12 A. Yeah, looking in between times, try to keep
13 the young lad --
14 Q. You had the young lad with you?
15 A. Yes, he was there in the yard along with me.
16 Q. You had pulled him in, I think, from the
17 park; you were trying to calm him down?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So that your attention was sometimes diverted
20 away from whatever was happening out in the
21 Glenfada Park, that would be fair?
22 A. (Witness nodding).
23 Q. Just one matter of correction in your
24 statement: could we go to 144.3, paragraph 16? You
25 say there:
1 "I knew Jim Wray because we had both work at
2 BSR, an engineering firm"; is that correct?
3 A. No, that is wrong.
4 Q. Who are you referring to as the person who
5 worked with you?
6 A. Mr McKinney.
7 Q. Is that Gerard McKinney?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. One other matter on the tape-recording that
10 was referred to under the name of Joe McCourt: was
11 there any relative of yours called Joe McCourt?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is he to you?
14 A. Cousin.
15 Q. Do you know if he was in Derry on
16 Bloody Sunday?
17 A. No, I did not see him at that time. I just
18 do not know where he was.
19 Q. You do not know where he was?
20 A. I know now he lives in Australia, but I do
21 not know whether he was in Derry at that time or not.
22 Q. Could we look, please, at AM144.4. You have
23 marked the yard in which you were in and you have
24 marked something which looks like a cross, which
25 I think is the --
1 A. Clothes line.
2 Q. There is a head sticking over the fence at
3 that point; do you know whether that would be you?
4 A. No, it is not me.
5 Q. It is not you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You say that, for what reason?
8 A. It just does not look like me.
9 Q. It does not look like you. Were there other
10 people in that yard besides you?
11 A. Yes, some of the family then had come out
12 into the yard after the shooting had finished. So it
13 could have been one of them. It could have been the
14 brother-in-law, he was there, Michael Kevlin, it could
15 have been him.
16 Q. While the shooting was going on, it was you
17 and the young lad and other people there?
18 A. No, there was nobody else in the yard at the
19 time of the shooting, just myself and the young fella.
20 Everybody else came out after the shooting had
21 finished.
22 Q. I am asking you that because it may well be
23 this photograph was taken before the shooting -- not
24 the general shooting, but the shooting inside
25 Glenfada Park had happened. Would you be able to help
1 us as to --
2 A. No, I do not think so. That looks to me as
3 if it was after.
4 Q. At any rate, you are fairly clear that is not
5 you?
6 A. No, it was not me.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
9 MR GLASGOW: Mr McCourt, I am on your left.
10 My name is Glasgow and I represent many of the
11 soldiers. I would like you to help the Tribunal a
12 little more, if you would. Could you look first of
13 all, please, at paragraph 7 of your statement on page 1
14 at AM144.1.
15 So that you can get your bearings, sir,
16 I want you to help the Tribunal a little more with the
17 rubber bullet that was fired down Rossville Street.
18 You were about to go into the entrance to
19 Glenfada Park North?
20 A. Yes, I was actually in the entrance.
21 Q. You were actually already in it?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And you were aware that other people were
24 generally in the area, but you were not aware of
25 anybody immediately around you?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You were struck by a rubber bullet?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Which you very fairly said had obviously
5 ricocheted off something?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. I am not in any way suggesting you did
8 anything improper on this or any other day, but had you
9 been around and seen rubber bullets fired before?
10 A. Only in Rossville Street just --
11 Q. Only on that day?
12 A. Yes. I did not know what they were.
13 Q. Had you seen any rubber bullets actually
14 fired other than one fired from behind you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Had you watched a soldier shoot with the
17 rubber bullet?
18 A. Just on that day, that incident, yes.
19 Q. What almost all of the soldiers have said,
20 indeed I think there is no serious dispute in the vast
21 majority of cases, that rubber bullets were fired as
22 they were intended and instructed to be fired, either
23 fired into the ground or bounced off something as
24 distinct from fired straight at people. All you can
25 say is that what happened to you is consistent with
1 that, it agrees with that, it would appear --
2 A. I can only say that he fired at me. If you
3 look at the map there is a low wall shown on the map,
4 and it bounced off that and hit me.
5 Q. It must have bounced off something before it
6 hit you?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. You have never pretended that you know why
9 that rubber bullet was fired because you did not see
10 what anybody around you was doing?
11 A. No, I did not know what his intentions was.
12 Q. You obviously cannot say?
13 A. Wrong place, wrong time.
14 Q. You cannot say what his intentions were
15 because at whoever the rubber bullet was aimed, it was
16 clearly -- it actually hit something else before it hit
17 you and, so far as you are aware, that is probably what
18 was intended?
19 A. Well, he might have been a bad shot.
20 Q. Forgive me, the reason why I asked you is
21 because, for some extraordinary reason, Counsel to the
22 Tribunal, from whom you accepted, put to you as fact
23 that you had said that the rubber bullet was fired at
24 you and then asked a series of questions clearly
25 designed to give the impression that you believed that
1 it had been fired at you --
2 A. Well, it was pointed at me, but there could
3 have been other people behind me, maybe he had picked
4 out them as the target, but for my opinion it was
5 pointed at me.
6 Q. As we see from your statement, when we read
7 it carefully -- as I am sure the Tribunal would want us
8 to because it is very important to be fair to
9 everybody -- what you actually had written down was
10 that it was aimed in your direction?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. That is what you meant?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. You never intended to say that it was aimed
15 to hit you or, indeed, that it did hit you but that it
16 ricocheted?
17 A. I could not say the soldier's intentions.
18 I can only tell you that it was pointed in my direction
19 and its bullets hit me.
20 Q. Thank you for clearing that up for us, I am
21 sorry it was necessary.
22 Could we go over the page, please, to
23 AM144.2, Mr McCourt? Before doing so, I think it is
24 fair to show you -- you can see the page that I want to
25 ask you some questions to help the Tribunal again
1 about -- what happened in Glenfada Park.
2 Could we look once more, please, before we do
3 that at a statement which somebody made, which we have
4 as AM144.6. Forgive me, if I may, asking you the
5 question that I know you have already addressed. It is
6 written in this statement that whoever it was who made
7 it was standing in their wife's granny's kitchen?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Is there anybody else who you know or knew
10 of, Mr McCourt, to whom that description could apply?
11 A. No.
12 Q. There is nobody else you know in the family?
13 A. I do not know where the statement came from.
14 It certainly did not come from me.
15 Q. It is possible you have simply completely
16 forgotten making it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You do not think that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Mr McCourt, I have to put it to you: if that
21 is not the explanation, then somebody else is
22 pretending to be you, or is there any other --
23 A. That is a possibility in this town, people
24 like to exaggerate and brag about their exploits.
25 Maybe somebody used my name, somebody used my address.
1 It certainly was not me. If I saw somebody killing
2 somebody I would tell you.
3 Q. You are quite certain?
4 A. I did not see anybody killing anybody.
5 I seen somebody dead after the occasion.
6 Q. I appreciate that is what you are saying,
7 sir, but it is a very long time ago and a number of us
8 have already expressly accepted that people have been
9 honestly but seriously mistaken about what they now
10 remember from 30 years ago?
11 A. Possibly, yes.
12 Q. That is why I thought it right, I hope in
13 that same spirit, to give you the opportunity of
14 saying: is it possible that you have simply forgotten
15 making this statement in which somebody described
16 themselves as being in their wife's granny's kitchen?
17 A. No, it is not me.
18 Q. You are quite certain?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. It really does boil down to this, does it
21 not: somebody made up a statement in your name because
22 there is no other explanation that you can think of?
23 A. It is possible.
24 Q. Despite that answer, can I ask you to help
25 with this: in the third line there is a reference to
1 soldiers firing at a wounded civilian and hitting him
2 in the head. It is going to be suggested to the
3 Tribunal when the evidence has properly been given, if
4 it is, that a civilian who was shot in the head was
5 probably carried across Glenfada Park North and that
6 there has been a conspiracy of silence about him.
7 Everybody has pretended that that did not happen.
8 I have to put that to you so that you can consider it
9 because somebody in this statement appears to have
10 spoken words which we can hear, I am sure when the
11 opportunity is given to us, on a tape in which they
12 have described a wounded civilian shot in the head.
13 Is it possible that what you saw and may
14 indeed have blanked out of your mind, was a civilian
15 being carried across the square who had been shot in
16 the head?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you think that is a possibility, sir?
19 A. No, I did not see that.
20 Q. You are sure?
21 A. Yeah, positive.
22 Q. Do you think that it is possible that a great
23 deal more went on in Glenfada Park than you now
24 remember and that you have blocked it out of your mind?
25 A. No, I have not blocked nothing.
1 Q. You are quite sure?
2 A. I remember everything quite clearly.
3 Q. The Tribunal has had statements from some
4 people who have been prepared confidentially to mention
5 things that went on in Glenfada Park, but which they
6 have not been prepared to put openly in statements or
7 give evidence about.
8 Do you, as a local resident, know about that;
9 do you know people have done that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Can I show you one example, sir?
12 A. Certainly.
13 Q. We have heard something about it today. If
14 we look, if we may, and see what Mr Quinn was prepared
15 to tell the newspapers but nobody else. If we go to
16 AQ11.12, we see a record of what one man in
17 Glenfada Park has apparently -- I choose my words
18 carefully -- prepared to say to newspaper reporters.
19 You see his name at the top, if I may have control, his
20 name is just mentioned at the top as"Quinn". I wanted
21 to refer you to the notes to see if you can help at
22 all. If this note be right, what is written is:
23 "Under guaranty of total anonymity, Quinn
24 told us the following:
25 "1. There were two 'IRA cars' parked in
1 Glenfada Park. He knows there were IRA men, known in
2 the district. Two were in one, unknown in the other.
3 He saw no guns."
4 Now, you were into Glenfada Park on the day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you know anything about two IRA cars?
7 A. No.
8 Q. In the --
9 A. Nothing.
10 Q. Nothing at all?
11 A. No. I do not even recall seeing cars.
12 Q. He went on to say, and in fairness to him it
13 is right that he did put this in his statement to
14 Eversheds, or words to this effect:
15 "2. While standing between the fences on the
16 south side of Glenfada Park ..."
17 That, sir -- I break off -- would be to your
18 right of course, would it not?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. To your right. Where, in fairness to you,
21 you could not see because, as you helped Lord Gifford,
22 your yellow arrow was the cut-off point to your
23 visibility to the right; do you remember?
24 A. That is right. Yeah.
25 Q. What this man says is that he saw two youths
1 carrying nail bombs in their hand, one long fair hair,
2 one wearing a blue denim jacket; the other had very
3 black hair, shortish, was wearing a fawn jacket. The
4 bombs were cylindrical shape with a black fuse
5 projecting from the top and they were about 6 inches
6 long, he estimates. At no time did he see the bombs
7 lit, but he is adamant that he saw them.
8 Did you see any of that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I will not bore you with anyone else's
11 documents unless you ask me to, in which case I will.
12 In the statement he made to Eversheds, the solicitors
13 to this Tribunal, he describes how they were persuaded
14 by IRA men to disappear with him, ushered out in the
15 northwest corner.
16 If that be right, I think it must follow that
17 if you had been looking, they would have crossed your
18 field of vision from right to left. If they did, did
19 you see it?
20 A. That is a possibility, but I did not see
21 anything because my earlier statement says that I was
22 hiding, trying to pacify others, so things could have
23 been going on that I did not see. I just do not know.
24 I cannot give you an answer on it.
25 Q. Yes. You were not looking out all the time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. There could have been cars moving or people
3 handling things that you simply did not see?
4 A. That is possible, I did not see it.
5 Q. I wanted your help -- I am not being
6 hypocritical, I mean that -- I wanted your help with
7 the first few lines: do you know that there are people
8 in this city who were only prepared to talk about what
9 went on in Glenfada Park if they were granted total
10 anonymity?
11 A. Being honest, it is the first time I have
12 ever heard of it.
13 Q. If we go back to your own statement, unless
14 there is anything else that I should have put to you,
15 I think not. Go back to your statement at AM144.2,
16 please. You can see it simply so that the context is
17 before you, sir. I do not want to pick up anything in
18 particular: you have no recollection of seeing the
19 soldiers in the top left-hand corner, using ordinary
20 language, away from you in that distance up in the top
21 left-hand corner firing in your general direction?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The only firing that you saw, you are quite
24 clear about this and helped my learned friend
25 Lord Gifford already, was firing across from left to
1 right?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. You are quite sure about that?
4 A. Yeah, soldier on the left-hand side, but
5 I did not actually see him squeeze the trigger; I heard
6 the shot.
7 Q. You heard the shot?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Again, bearing in mind that you do not
10 pretend to have seen everything, you neither heard nor
11 saw anything that indicated shooting in your general
12 direction?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Towards the corner of the square from which
15 you were looking?
16 A. No.
17 Q. The photograph that you have just been
18 shown -- I wonder if my learned friend could tell me
19 which of the precise photographs you were looking at
20 just a moment ago?
21 LORD GIFFORD: 209; it would have been marked
22 as a "SNAP".
23 MR GLASGOW: I am very sorry, it is the
24 photograph actually put by my learned friend Ms McGahey
25 as the last photograph.
1 LORD GIFFORD: 144.4.
2 MR GLASGOW: I am very grateful, could we try
3 144.4? I want to help you with this because it would
4 be unfair of people to comment on it when you had gone
5 when you did not have the opportunity of dealing with
6 it, Mr McCourt.
7 I think I can put to you really with almost
8 certainty, I can put to you with confidence that this
9 photograph must have been taken before the shooting
10 that you have just told us about happened, before any
11 soldiers fired from the northwest corner of
12 Glenfada Park which, on this photograph, would have
13 been up off on the right-hand side?
14 A. No, I did not see soldiers shooting at that
15 particular time there. I only heard the shots on the
16 left-hand side, so I cannot verify that at all.
17 Q. But this is a scene that brings back no
18 recollection --
19 A. This is what I saw after the shooting, not
20 before it.
21 Q. Before the shooting happened you do not
22 remember looking out on a scene anything like this?
23 A. When I looked out everybody was lying on the
24 ground, there was nobody actually standing up that
25 I seen.
1 Q. In fairness to you, is what you told the
2 Tribunal you remember people lying in three places;
3 indeed one of the places where you believe you saw
4 somebody lying would have been, if I may have control,
5 approximately where this gentleman is lying?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Forgive me if it sounds rude: if we are all
8 right about this photograph and that it is taken in the
9 very early stages of this incident, you would have been
10 the only person -- the only adult behind that fence,
11 would you not?
12 A. No. I am quite convinced that this
13 photograph was after --
14 Q. I know you are, sir, therefore --
15 A. That is not me.
16 Q. That is why I prefaced it by saying I know it
17 sounds rude and it is not meant to. Forgive me, if you
18 are wrong about that and if this photograph is taken
19 shortly after the very first live round of the day has
20 been fired, there was not anybody behind that fence,
21 any adult behind that fence other than you?
22 A. No, there was somebody else there. I told
23 you earlier on when I had gone into the house after the
24 shooting had stopped, so other people had come out
25 after me and were standing in that yard. So that could
1 be my brother-in-law.
2 Q. All you can say is -- again look at the
3 photograph, please, as carefully as you can because
4 I do not want to make a false point, it could be
5 important: when you look out and simply saw people
6 lying on the ground, not moving?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. One of them was lying in approximately the
9 position where that blue arrow is?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr McCourt.
12 MS McGAHEY: I have no further questions.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCourt, the Chairman
14 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
15 assist the Inquiry.
16 A. Thank you.
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 MR PETER MULLAN, affirmed
19 Questioned by MR CLARKE
20 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Mullan, you may have heard
21 me say this to other witnesses, I say it to them all:
22 I am the Chairman and the questions will come from the
23 barristers in front of me. Please try and remember it
24 keep fairly close to that microphone so we are all able
25 to hear what you have to say.
1 MR CLARKE: Mr Mullan, do you have with you
2 your statement to this Tribunal which you signed on
3 11th December of last year?
4 A. I do, yes.
5 Q. I think there is one correction you would
6 like to make to it. If we could have on the screen
7 AM450.59: you are describing in paragraph 26 a mound
8 of earth or a pile of rubble just before
9 Fahan Street West becomes Little Diamond. As written,
10 that is described as being about "waist high". I think
11 the position is that it was about five feet high; is
12 that right?
13 A. That is right, yes.
14 Q. With that minor correction, are the contents
15 of this statement true to the best of your knowledge
16 and belief?
17 A. Um, yes, it is possible that I had some idea
18 of the identity of one of the people that I saw
19 restraining a would-be gunman.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. But since, perhaps it was omitted because
22 I did point out that I would have been seeing them from
23 behind, so perhaps I could not be absolutely sure.
24 Q. With that qualification, you think that you
25 identified one of the persons who was restraining the
1 gunman?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can we come to that when we get to that
4 passage in your statement, but thank you for telling me
5 in advance.
6 Can we have on the screen AM450.5, paragraphs
7 1 and 2: you describe in those paragraphs how you were
8 a teacher at St Columb's and a member of the Derry
9 Labour Party, and had been closely involved in previous
10 marches.
11 Were you anything other than a member of the
12 Party; were you an officer or anything of the kind?
13 A. Of the Party?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I think at one stage I did hold minor
16 offices, but ...
17 Q. You say in the last three sentences:
18 "I was quite well-known as a speaker within
19 the Derry Labour Party. The marches had become less
20 well organised through 1970 and 1971. Our organised
21 and idealistic approach had given way to more violent
22 activity."
23 Could you just explain to me what you meant
24 by that sentence and who is the "our" to who you were
25 referring?
1 A. I suppose by "our" I meant those who would
2 have been involved, whether -- particularly, of course,
3 those that I knew best in the Derry Labour Party, but
4 others in associated organisations like Derry Housing
5 Association and whatever and NICRA who, from the
6 beginning, had attempted a non-violent approach. But
7 obviously, as time had gone on, violence had become
8 more and more frequent and those who were seeing --
9 looking to a continued political non-violent approach
10 were increasingly being, if not pushed to the side,
11 certainly losing control or losing influence,
12 I suppose. It was diminishing, it certainly had not
13 been lost, but it was diminishing.
14 Q. When you said that the organised and
15 idealistic approach had given way to more violent
16 activity, were you meaning by that there had come to be
17 more violent activity on marches, or were you saying
18 something different?
19 A. I suppose I was thinking particularly of the
20 amount of violence which was occurring in general, and
21 the way that the atmosphere was becoming much more
22 violent and extreme. But it is true, of course, that
23 on marches stone-throwing and, to a lesser extent but
24 still there, petrol bombs had become more frequent,
25 yeah, but I was thinking of the general increase in
1 violence throughout society.
2 Q. Had you ever known marches being used by
3 either branch of the IRA as a cover for paramilitary
4 activity or for shooting at the Security Forces, for
5 instance?
6 A. I had no personal experience of that.
7 I heard people talk about gunmen using civilian
8 protests and so on as cover. I do not remember ever
9 having any personal experience of that, no.
10 Q. In paragraph 2 you deal with the march on
11 30th January 1972. You make the point that, unlike
12 other marches, this march just involved the Catholic
13 area in Derry.
14 That would only be so, would it not, on the
15 supposition that it did not get to the Guildhall?
16 A. Yes, but I think that supposition was fairly
17 common. I do not think many people expected to get
18 beyond the bottom of William Street.
19 Q. You say that there was no expectation of any
20 major problems, but you thought that a minority might
21 try to cause some trouble. What sort of trouble --
22 A. Oh, the usual stone-throwing, there would be
23 a small number of primarily teenagers that took it for
24 granted that would occur, yes.
25 Q. You say you had no direct knowledge of the
1 IRA's intentions and did not know any Official IRA
2 members directly, but knew of a few people who you
3 suspected were involved in the organisation, but did
4 not believe that they or the Provisional IRA would see
5 it in their interests to get involved on that day, and
6 therefore they would not be there?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Why was it that you did not believe that the
9 people you suspected might have Official IRA
10 involvement would not get involved on this day?
11 A. Well, the, the general scuttle-buttle round
12 the town was that this would be the case, that they
13 would not be involved, and logically it seemed that
14 there was no, there was no political reward to come to
15 them from using this. Given the way that all levels of
16 society, of the community were urging them not to get
17 involved, I should have thought it would have been
18 politically foolish of them to get involved.
19 Q. Had you ever discussed with any of the people
20 who you suspected were involved with the Official IRA
21 what line they were going to take towards the march?
22 A. I think possibly because of the way I express
23 it there, that rather exaggerates these people whom
24 I cannot now remember as being possibly involved with
25 IRA. I do not remember having any discussions with any
1 of them. I think I was just making a general point of
2 my impression, but I certainly do not recall any
3 conversation with anybody that I would have seen as
4 being likely to be involved.
5 Q. Do you recall any discussion with anybody who
6 might have been involved with the Officials after the
7 march about what role they had or had not taken on the
8 day?
9 A. No, no, not at all.
10 Q. Does the same go for the Provisionals?
11 A. I would have had even less awareness of
12 Provisionals, I think.
13 Q. Can we come, please, to paragraphs 6 to 8 on
14 the following page? You describe in this part of your
15 statement walking east along William Street, going past
16 a number of soldiers, getting quite close to the
17 junction and seeing ahead of you the crowd surging at
18 the eastern end of William Street, then getting a whiff
19 of tear gas and moving off William Street to the south
20 and stumbling into some derelict buildings.
21 In the last four lines of paragraph 7, you
22 describe stumbling a few yards through those buildings
23 and ending up next to an open space, which was a bit
24 like a road, at a point you have marked as "B" on your
25 photograph and then hearing a crack of a rifle shot and
1 seeing a youth immediately ahead of you and to your
2 right fall about 10 or 12 feet away from you.
3 Can we have on the screen photograph P199 and
4 can we highlight the middle bit: you describe going
5 through some derelict buildings to the south off
6 William Street. I wonder, but do not let me put words
7 into your mouth, whether the route you would have taken
8 is to come off Rossville Street? There is in fact, as
9 we can see in this photograph, a gap between some
10 buildings which leads out to here and to some
11 wasteground to the south of William Street, which
12 appears approximately where your "B" is on your map.
13 Do you think that may have been the route
14 that you took?
15 A. That looks to be too far from
16 William Street. I am sure where I saw the young fella
17 fall was really only a very short distance, a few feet
18 in from William Street.
19 Q. If we look at the map which is attached to
20 your statement at AM450.12, we can in fact see that the
21 place where you ended up is described, at any rate on
22 this map, as "B"; do you follow that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It is a little way off William Street?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could we, whilst we are looking at that, have
2 on the screen AM450.13: this is some notes of an
3 interview with a journalist at the Sunday Times, which
4 I think you recall having an interview and accept that
5 the account is broadly accurate.
6 Could we see how you saw it at the time:
7 I wonder if we could maximize it, beginning there?
8 What you are recorded as saying is this:
9 "I only saw a few people throwing stones on
10 the Aggro Corner -- but not many because the gas was
11 too intense."
12 A little lower down you say:
13 "Then there was another absolute burst of
14 tear gas, really intense from the barricade
15 direction ..."; you describe it as the worst that you
16 had experienced:
17 "... and I started to hurry across,
18 retreating across Rossville Street until somebody said
19 'It is stupid going across here, the tear gas is still
20 landing in front of us'."
21 Then you describe a little later swinging
22 round and going back against the crowd up
23 William Street and working up to the derelict house by
24 City Cabs, fighting your way out of Rossville Street,
25 going over the rubble through the broken wall,
1 stumbling through an actual hole in the wall in the
2 derelict house, coming out and round the back into the
3 alleyway at the back of Kells Walk.
4 If we could have on the screen AM450.4. This
5 is a map we have obtained from the Sunday Times which
6 was attached to your interview. It shows the position
7 of the City Radio Cabs and at a later stage what is
8 described as your route.
9 If we go back to the photograph that I showed
10 you a little before at P199, the City Cabs office to
11 which you refer is there; do you recall that?
12 A. I do not now recall the City Cabs office.
13 Q. If one links in the reference to going to
14 City Cabs and then going through a derelict house,
15 I wonder whether it looks more likely as if you may
16 have gone through there and come out to this
17 wasteground there?
18 A. No, my memory would be of coming out
19 either -- can I indicate here?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Of coming out either there and Donaghy
22 falling there, or at most of his falling at that point,
23 but... I was coming through all of those buildings.
24 I stumbled through several buildings, there were holes
25 in walls and so on.
1 Q. That is several buildings to the south of
2 William Street?
3 A. Yes. I had not gone more than a few yards
4 into Rossville Street before I had to turn, so really
5 I probably had not even got beyond the gable of those
6 buildings.
7 Q. Could we have a look at another photograph,
8 which is P201. This is a photograph taken showing
9 William Street coming down the photograph from top to
10 bottom. City Cabs we were looking at a little earlier
11 is there; the GPO is there and the Presbyterian Church
12 is off to the right.
13 Can you follow your bearings on that?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. If we take your map, the position where you
16 describe the boys as having fallen is in fact at that
17 corner there; would that be right?
18 A. That is right, yes.
19 Q. That does fit in with your recollection?
20 A. On that photograph it is much more clearly
21 the case, yes.
22 Q. Can we go to AM450.6, paragraph 8: you
23 describe in paragraph 8 hearing the crack of a rifle
24 shot and seeing a youth fall ahead of you and to your
25 right and after hearing the crack of the rifle, you
1 describe how the young man was facing in a northerly
2 direction so that you could see his right side profile
3 and he fell backwards with his right leg giving way
4 first and you saw there was nothing in his hands as he
5 was falling, though you assumed he had been throwing
6 stones?
7 A. Well, I, I did note and this did bring it
8 back to me, in the interview with the Sunday Times
9 I commented on the fact that his hand was up, cupped
10 virtually in the way he was falling, his hands were
11 virtually cupped at his mouth. I remember that being
12 very clear, that being very vivid.
13 Q. Your assumption was right because we know
14 this boy was almost certainly Damien Donaghy and he has
15 told us that he had been throwing stones.
16 If we can have the photograph back on the
17 screen, P201: can you help us as to how many other
18 people there were around at this time? You have
19 described seeing him fall at the corner that we were
20 looking at a moment ago; was there anybody close to him
21 or around him?
22 A. There were some few feet, I think, between
23 him and the others who were sheltered along that wall,
24 or at least -- rather were moving, retreating,
25 I presumed along that wall. Nobody in the middle of
1 the open area and then there were people like myself
2 who were coming out on this side.
3 Q. That is to say, on the eastern side?
4 A. On the eastern side, yes.
5 Q. The side closest to the junction. So the
6 picture immediately before he falls is of people who
7 were moving away from the corner?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I think you describe how they turned -- some
10 of them at any rate came back to him after he had been
11 shot?
12 A. I, I started forward to assist him but they
13 were both -- well, closer to him and certainly also
14 sheltered by the wall, so ...
15 Q. Can you recall what the position was in
16 William Street itself at this stage?
17 A. I did not pay much attention to it. There
18 were people there, yes, but it was not the solid mass
19 of people that had been when the march was actually
20 coming down.
21 Q. Was there still part of a march there or were
22 there just people there?
23 A. I do not really recall that. My impression
24 -- I do not really recall all that many, a few
25 scattered people, that was all.
1 Q. A few scattered people. Thank you very
2 much.
3 Can you tell us what the noise level was at
4 this stage; was there a lot of noise going on and if
5 so, of what?
6 A. The noise, I -- my only impression of noise
7 was of some shouting, say from the stone-throwers and
8 so on down at the bottom of William Street and of the
9 occasional tear gas grenade going off. I do not
10 remember anything else, no.
11 Q. Had you heard anything in this area, either
12 to the south of Rossville Street where the boy fell or
13 to the north of Rossville Street in the wasteground,
14 which sounded like an explosion of some kind?
15 A. No, I am not aware of that at all.
16 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraph 11 at
17 AM450.7: you describe in that paragraph how, at a time
18 after you had started to move towards the young man but
19 saw that other people had got to him first and
20 therefore remained where you were, after a short while,
21 maybe a few minutes, you were aware of a second rifle
22 shot and swung round to your right, that is to say to
23 the north, and saw an elderly man on the ground who --
24 A. I think I am probably mistaken there.
25 Q. You think you are probably mistaken?
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. What is the mistake?
3 A. I would fully accept my Sunday Times
4 interview in that respect. I certainly saw an elderly
5 man -- rather, out of the corner of my eye as I was
6 looking towards Donaghy, I was aware that just a very
7 short distance from me was an elderly man, and I think
8 when I saw the elderly man being carried and briefly
9 assisted in carrying him a short time later myself,
10 I presume I just made the connection this was -- he was
11 starting towards Donaghy at the same time that I was.
12 I drew back, I presume that he did not, I do not know.
13 No, I would take back that about actually seeing him on
14 the ground.
15 Q. Can we remind yourself what your Sunday Times
16 account is; can we have on the screen AM450.14, the
17 first half, please? You describe in that account
18 seeing others along the wall who had their backs to the
19 boy, turning and beginning to move towards him. You
20 then describe the matter in these terms:
21 "I continued along, and circled round the
22 back of Columbcille Court, through the archway and into
23 the courtyard. There was a small crowd milling there,
24 upset. And I heard the news that a second man had been
25 shot. I did not hear the shot."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Shall we take that to be the more accurate
3 account?
4 A. I am sure that is the more correct
5 interpretation, yes.
6 Q. You say:
7 "I suspect it was the man I had seen move
8 towards Donaghy, because an oldish man was among the
9 first I had seen move towards him."
10 Should we take it from that that you had seen
11 on the same side as Damien Donaghy, as you have just
12 described to us, people move towards him?
13 A. Yes, they turned -- they would have been
14 fleeing -- they turned and moved towards him, yes.
15 Q. When you heard that a second man had been
16 shot, you suspected that it was one of the people you
17 had seen move towards --
18 A. Oh, no, no, it was somebody on the same side
19 of the wasteground as myself on my right.
20 Q. I see.
21 A. Yes, I presume he had also come out of the
22 houses along with -- or just in front of me.
23 Q. Did you subsequently see the older man who
24 had been shot?
25 A. Well, I could not be sure it was exactly the
1 same man, but I presumed it was. I certainly saw an
2 elderly man being carried into the court and through
3 the court. As I say, I briefly supported him myself,
4 but there were already six, seven people carrying him
5 so ...
6 Q. You presumed that it was the man who had been
7 on your side of the courtyard who had moved towards
8 him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But without being able positively to identify
11 him?
12 A. Yes, there were very few people of that age
13 in the area, so I presumed it was the same man, yes.
14 LORD SAVILLE: We have got to between 3.05
15 and 3.10.
16 Mr Mullan, we usually break at this time to
17 give the lady to your right a 10-minute break, and
18 indeed all of us as well. Could you come back in ten
19 minutes' time and could I ask you not to discuss your
20 evidence with anybody at all until you have finished
21 giving it?
22 A. Thank you.
23 (3.10 pm)
24 (A short adjournment)
25 (3.30 pm)
1 MR CLARKE: Could we have back on the screen
2 AM450.14? I got to the passage in your account as
3 given to the Sunday Times where you were describing
4 circling around the back of Columbcille Court, through
5 the archway and into the courtyard.
6 If we could have now on screen AM450.4: it
7 looks from the map we have from the Sunday Times
8 archive that the description they noted down of your
9 route is that you went round the back, that is to say
10 to the south side of Columbcille Court, which is here
11 and that the bodies of Damien Donaghy and
12 John Johnston, as we now know them to be, went round to
13 the north side which is consistent with a great body of
14 evidence the Tribunal has heard that those two people
15 were in fact taken to 8 Columbcille Court, which in
16 terms of this map is roughly there.
17 It rather looks from the squiggle as if that
18 is the same at the bottom; does that accord with your
19 recollection?
20 A. No, I am fairly sure that the Sunday Times
21 reporter got it wrong there. My memory would be of
22 coming this other direction, the same direction as the
23 bodies; in other words, that is, I remember, those
24 buildings as being on my left-hand side as I moved
25 rather than on my right.
1 Q. You remember which buildings being on your
2 left-hand side?
3 A. These, where the --
4 Q. As you came towards them?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could we have on the screen P200: this shows
7 in photographic form what we have just been looking
8 at. Here is where Damien Donaghy, on your evidence,
9 fell and you were somewhere over on that side.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do I understand you correctly to say that
12 your recollection is that you went towards this
13 building?
14 A. Yes, that is right.
15 Q. Which is Columbcille Court, having it on your
16 left side?
17 A. That is right, yes.
18 Q. Before we get to what happened there: you
19 describe the fracas which we know took place between a
20 BBC camera team and people at the building. I do not
21 want to go into that in any detail, but there is an
22 account in your Sunday Times interview of either a
23 couple of punches or a fist fight breaking out on two
24 occasions.
25 Have I understood that is actually a punch-up
1 between two different groups of civilians?
2 A. My memory of it is that those who were
3 hostile to the media attempted to punch them, but
4 others, including myself, got in between and then there
5 were a few fairly harmless attempted blows between
6 those who were arguing, yes.
7 Q. Can I then come, please, to your account to
8 this Tribunal of the appearance of a man with a rifle
9 and various people attempting to restrain him: you say
10 in your statement -- we need not have it back on the
11 screen -- how your next recollection is looking out
12 into an open area close to the house to which we had
13 taken Mr Johnston and of seeing a civilian with a rifle
14 moving towards the derelict buildings in the area where
15 you had been, and where the young man and John Johnston
16 had been shot?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In your statement you say you cannot remember
19 exactly where this was and a recent walk around the
20 Bogside has not helped because the area has changed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Looking at this photograph, and in the light
23 of what you have just told me about the direction that
24 you think you went, are you any clearer as to where you
25 saw a civilian with a rifle moving towards the area
1 where the young man and Mr Johnston had been shot?
2 A. I certainly would not like to be too
3 definite. I was aware he was on my left moving away
4 from me towards William Street. Possibly that
5 direction, but, you know, by that stage I may have
6 moved somewhat there, I am not too sure. My memory
7 would be somewhere in that region, yes.
8 Q. Moving in a northerly direction across
9 Kells Walk.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If he was moving in the direction you have
12 described on the photograph, he would not in fact have
13 been moving to exactly where Damien Donaghy had been
14 shot?
15 A. No, it had indeed then quite possible that
16 I had moved, that I had moved further in that direction
17 and that I then saw him there. As I say, I know that
18 I saw him -- that I saw him round to my left and he was
19 moving away from me towards William Street, towards
20 that general area, but -- so it is indeed quite
21 possible that I had moved further down there by that
22 stage, but I would not like to swear to any of it.
23 Q. Does it come to this: you have a recollection
24 of being in Kells Walk, the street, which is what I am
25 showing there?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And of the man appearing on your left and
3 moving in a northerly direction?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But precisely where he was going you would
6 not like to say; is that a fair way of summarising it?
7 A. That is, yes.
8 Q. Could we then go to paragraphs 16 and 17 on
9 AM450.7: you describe how your attention was drawn to
10 the young man with a rifle having an angry argument
11 with two or three other men and being restrained by
12 those men as he was moving towards the area near where
13 Donaghy and Johnson had been shot.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was your attention drawn by the fact that you
16 could hear an angry argument going on, or for some
17 other reason?
18 A. My memory was of just generally, just
19 generally hearing noise in that area, but when I then
20 re-read my Sunday Times interview, I am sure that was
21 -- that does come back quite clearly. I did hear
22 somebody saying something like "clear out, somebody is
23 going to have a go" or something like that.
24 MR TOOHEY: Mr Mullan, to your right, please:
25 is it clear in your mind that the young man whom you
1 describe and the civilian whom you had earlier seen are
2 different persons or could they be the same, or what?
3 A. The young man and what civilians?
4 MR TOOHEY: You have spoken of a civilian
5 moving across the wasteground or towards the
6 wasteground carrying a rifle or with a rifle, then you
7 speak of a young man with a rifle being restrained?
8 A. It is the same person that I am referring to,
9 yes, yes, thank you, sir.
10 MR CLARKE: The two or three other men, do
11 you have any idea how old they were?
12 A. Oh, yes. They were certainly, at least two
13 of them were significantly older than himself. There
14 were -- first two then another one joined in with them
15 and then I think a number of other people were moving
16 to support them as well, but I did not pay particular
17 attention to them, they were older, yes.
18 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement you
19 describe the man as holding the rifle in his left hand
20 by the barrel, which was pointing upwards, and you
21 could see it clearly under his coat.
22 Can you illustrate how exactly he had it;
23 I am finding it a little difficult to follow?
24 A. Down like that (indicating). I did notice,
25 by the way, that I had it on the right side in the
1 Sunday Times thing, but in either case it was down
2 being grasped by a hand down to the side with the flap
3 of the coat covering it, except for the top which quite
4 clearly to be seen and, as his coat opened, as he
5 turned, it was very clear, I could see the gun very
6 clearly, but I could not see all of it at this stage.
7 Q. Which way up was it?
8 A. Oh, pointing towards the sky.
9 Q. The barrel was up towards the sky and the
10 butt was down towards the ground; is that right?
11 A. That is right, yes. I would not swear to it,
12 but that is certainly my memory, yes.
13 Q. You say in paragraph 16 that he was holding
14 it by the barrel; that is right, is it?
15 A. I suppose I really meant that he was holding
16 it by the stock, by the butt, yeah.
17 Q. But the butt, that is the opposite end?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. The description you give in paragraph 17 of
20 what was going on was to the effect that the people who
21 were trying to catch him were saying:
22 "'No, you could not do that. Hand it over.
23 You know there are orders. No guns today'."
24 He was saying:
25 "I do not care a fuck. I am not going to
1 stand here and let those bastards shoot unarmed
2 people", and the others were saying:
3 "No, no firing, no guns, hand it over."
4 This may be an impossible question, if it is,
5 say so: did you get any impression as to whether these
6 were members of the same group, one of whom was trying
7 to be persuaded off by other members of the same group
8 or that they were members of two different groups?
9 A. They were two different groups. That was my
10 impression. I only knew -- I only recognised the
11 gunman and, and one of the restrainers, but as
12 I pointed out at the beginning of this, the gunman was
13 the only one whose face I saw full face because he
14 turned round several times, the others were -- their
15 backs were to me, but I thought I recognised one of
16 them, yes.
17 Q. I will come on to identities in a moment.
18 Could we go over the page to paragraphs 18 and 19. You
19 say:
20 "In the end, there was not much of a
21 struggle. I saw one of the other men get his hands on
22 the rifle which the man was still holding in his left
23 hand. It was some kind of light rifle ...
24 "Just as the gun appeared to be taken off
25 him, my attention was diverted by lots of shouting and
1 running around somewhere to the south of where
2 I was ...".
3 Should we understand from that that you did
4 not actually see him disarmed?
5 A. No, I did not, no.
6 Q. Should we also understand that from the
7 language that you heard and the actions that you saw
8 that they appeared to be trying to prevent him shooting
9 in the future rather than disarm him after he had
10 already done something?
11 A. Oh, it was my strong impression -- I did not
12 hear the whole conversation, but certainly my strong
13 impression was that they were preventing him from
14 starting to shoot and attempting to take the gun from
15 him, but certainly making sure he did not shoot. I did
16 not have any impression that he had, that he had shot
17 already.
18 Q. Could we have on the screen paragraph 22; can
19 I take this quite slowly and carefully? Paragraph 22
20 as it appears on the screen, says this:
21 "I knew who the man with the rifle was. His
22 name was ...", we have inserted a cipher, the cipher is
23 OIRA1, "who I suspected had connections with the
24 Official IRA".
25 As I am sure you appreciate, you know what
1 name was originally there and we have put in the cipher
2 because this is a person who has been granted anonymity
3 by the Tribunal. Let us not deal with his name as
4 opposed to his cipher. Can I ask you some questions
5 about this: how confident are you that this was the man
6 whom you saw?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. How far away was he from you?
9 A. Um, 20 feet possibly, something like that.
10 Q. How well did you know him?
11 A. I did not, I did not -- I was not a personal
12 friend of any sort. I knew him to nod to, say hello
13 to. The thing there, "I once saw him give a hiding to
14 someone twice his size", I remember some months before
15 we had been at a party together quite close-by, so
16 I had seen him around and I had seen him involved in
17 sort of political activity, but I did not, I was not
18 close, no.
19 Q. As you say, you had seen him involved in
20 political activity?
21 A. I knew him very well. I would not have
22 mistaken him, that is, like.
23 Q. Is there any possibility of mistake?
24 A. None whatsoever.
25 Q. Do you recall when you had last seen him
1 before?
2 A. I am sure the last time I had seen him was
3 the last time when I had seen him beating up --
4 Q. Punch at a party?
5 A. Yes, that is right.
6 Q. Do you remember how soon before Bloody Sunday
7 that was?
8 A. I do not really, some time the previous year,
9 I should think.
10 Q. I think it may follow from what I have been
11 asking you, but I should ask you this: was this a name
12 that you were able to volunteer to Eversheds when they
13 were taking your statement, or did your recollection
14 have to be prompted by anything?
15 A. It was -- I was reluctant to reveal the name
16 since I had not spoken. I was prompted by seeing his
17 statement and I agreed, yes, that was the person.
18 Q. I quite understand a reluctance about giving
19 any name; did you need any prompting --
20 A. None whatsoever. I knew perfectly well who
21 it was; I had always known perfectly well who it was.
22 Q. You told me a little earlier you think you
23 may have recognised one of the other persons?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I wonder if you could be provided with a
1 piece of paper? The reason for doing it this way is
2 that he may be somebody who, if your identification is
3 correct, may himself have a claim for anonymity. Could
4 you write down the person who you think you
5 recognised. Could you be so kind as to add your
6 signature and today's date, which is 3rd October?
7 (Handed).
8 The person whose name you have written down,
9 did you know who he was?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. He was somebody with whose identity you were
12 familiar?
13 A. I knew him very well.
14 Q. Knew him very well?
15 A. We were not close, but I certainly knew him
16 very well, yes.
17 Q. Would I be right to think that he was
18 somebody who was on the Provisional wing?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could we then go back to the Sunday Times
21 account at AM450.14 and could we have the second half
22 of the page? The way in which it is expressed there is
23 this:
24 "At this point, someone approached from the
25 back of the court saying 'Get clear, there is someone
1 here wants to get into action.' He was I think
2 middle-aged. I moved out into the back courtyard. As
3 I did so, someone came out -- I do not know where from
4 -- he was striding forward and he was obviously very
5 heated, in a big temper. I did not know him. He was
6 wearing a sort of car coat, three-quarter,
7 non-descript, brownish. He was very flushed and
8 speaking very fast. He was saying 'Those bastards
9 cannot get away with that. He held out his hand
10 towards where the two were lying ...".
11 A. The two were not of course lying, I meant he
12 pointed in the direction of where the two had been
13 shot.
14 Q. I follow. Pausing there, this account
15 continues consistently with the map as referring to him
16 moving out into the back courtyard, that is to say to
17 the south side of Columbcille Court and, as
18 I understand your evidence, you think that is just an
19 error?
20 A. Yeah, I am not -- I was not familiar with any
21 of that area, that was the first time I had ever been
22 in that area in my life and there were people milling
23 about, so I am just not terribly sure.
24 Q. As I understand your recollection now, you
25 think this all happened in the north side of
1 Columbcille Court, the side that we were looking at a
2 moment ago?
3 A. If I knew exactly where I was standing,
4 I would be fairly clear of where it was, but I cannot.
5 I do not know where I had moved exactly at that point,
6 so I can only know where he was in relation to me, but
7 exactly where I was standing I am not absolutely sure,
8 at that point.
9 Q. Let me show you how it goes on in the
10 account:
11 "He was striding down the back of
12 Columbcille Court in the direction of
13 Rossville Street."
14 The journalist has put "(Down A)"?
15 A. That is a mistake; it certainly should not be
16 in the direction of Rossville Street, it should be in
17 the direction of William Street.
18 Q. The journalist had written "I moved out to
19 B". If we go back to the map at AM450.4 that is
20 attached: assuming for the moment that my
21 interpretation of it is correct, what he appears to
22 have recorded, is this: the man with the gun was, as he
23 put it:
24 "Striding down the back of Columbcille Court
25 in the direction of Rossville Street (down A)".
1 Now "A" is there, so he appears to have made
2 a note that the gunman was going in that direction
3 where his arrow is. He has recorded you as saying:
4 "I moved out to 'B'", which is there because
5 -- it is a bit difficult to see on the screen, but
6 that is in fact pretty clearly a "B". So he has
7 recorded you as witnessing all this happening at, as he
8 describes it, the back of Columbcille Court.
9 If we go back to the photograph, P200,
10 I cannot give you, I think, a much better photograph
11 for the present purposes than this, but he has recorded
12 it as all happening behind here as opposed to in front
13 here (indicating)?
14 A. Yes, that would appear to be more probable,
15 but I am not swearing to any of this. But that, if
16 only because my memory was of not derelict buildings,
17 but of more complete modern buildings or whatever.
18 That is -- it is only again, only an impression.
19 Q. Your impression is that it is more probable
20 that this happened at the back of Columbcille Court,
21 that is to say to the south of the building?
22 A. Yes, based only on that, based only on the
23 impression of a building behind him as I looked in his
24 direction.
25 Q. If we go back to AM450.14: in the
1 description that you gave at the time to the Sunday
2 Times you said "I did not know him"; that was,
3 I assume, incorrect?
4 A. I did, yes.
5 Q. Were you apprehensive about naming him?
6 A. Well, the way it comes out in the
7 Sunday Times report that seems to be the main motive.
8 Certainly that was there, I would have been foolish not
9 to. I would say an even stronger motivation was: why
10 should I name this bloke and have him charged and so on
11 when the people who were doing the actual shooting were
12 going to get away Scot-free, so --
13 Q. The description that has been taken down of
14 what he was wearing was "a sort of car coat,
15 three-quarter, non-descript, brownish"; the expression
16 that you give in your statement to this Tribunal is "a
17 darkish winter coat, possibly with a hood"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you recollect whether it had a hood or
20 not?
21 A. Um, no, not really, no, no.
22 Q. Could we then come, please, to AM450.8,
23 paragraphs 23 and 24: you describe in paragraph 23 how
24 you told the Insight team you did not know who he was,
25 but you did know him and did not wish to name him for
1 the reasons you have just given.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The way in which this is drafted looks rather
4 odd, but it is in order to preserve anonymity. It
5 reads:
6 "I did not know who the men were who were
7 arguing with [it is the cipher for the man with the
8 rifle O IRA 1]. I thought they were older than [O IRA
9 1]. The man on [O IRA 1]'s left got his hands on the
10 weapon."
11 It records you have been asked whether you
12 recognised any of the three men who disarmed him and
13 particularly whether any of them were, and then the
14 three ciphers have been put in your statement of the
15 three mentioned in an interview with the Sunday Times
16 which we will come to in a moment. You say:
17 "I did not recognise any of them but did not
18 see them clearly."
19 You have told us this afternoon that you
20 think in fact you recognised one of them?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that something that you have recently
23 remembered, or what; what is the position exactly?
24 A. I suspect that again there at the time I was,
25 as with O IRA 1, I was being coy again about the name,
1 but I am not sure. I know that I certainly did not
2 recognise two of the three, I did not know them at
3 all. But I do believe that I recognised the third.
4 Again, I would stress that while I could see them in
5 part profile, they had primarily their backs to me
6 whereas he was frequently turning his face in my
7 direction.
8 Q. When did you first reckon that you could
9 recognise one of the people who were trying to prevent
10 the rifleman from acting?
11 A. That is, I think I have always believed that
12 I knew who the -- who one of them was.
13 Q. I think I should point out that in the next
14 sentence we have:
15 "I would not have known the other persons
16 named, but would have recognised [blank]"?
17 A. Yes, that is the one --
18 Q. That is the one you have just written?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. One reading of that is "I would not have
21 known the other persons named, but would have
22 recognised [blank] but I did not in fact on that day"?
23 A. Actually as you speak, I am sure John Ward
24 must have mentioned, was it the person I have named and
25 I avoided -- I evaded his question. I am sure that was
1 the nature of my reply.
2 Q. Can we now have on the screen AOIRA 1.1:
3 this is a document which has been obtained from the
4 Sunday Times archive and which purports to be an
5 account by O IRA 1 given to the Sunday Times some time
6 in the months following Bloody Sunday of what happened
7 on that date. There is an issue as to -- or at least
8 I understand there is an issue -- whether or not
9 O IRA 1 spoke to the Sunday Times, or spoke to the
10 Sunday Times in these terms, and whether or not this is
11 accurate, about which I am not able to be more precise
12 until O IRA 1 produces his statement. It is right
13 I should give that summary of what I understand to be
14 the status of this document before I ask you some
15 questions about it.
16 Taking it for the moment at face value, what
17 it says so far as presently relevant, picking it up at
18 this paragraph:
19 "He and O IRA 2 had already organised a
20 possible counter-sniping position against the two by
21 the Church [that is by the two soldiers by the
22 church]. It was in Columbcille Court, in one of the
23 areas outside the back door of each flat set aside for
24 washing lines et cetera. The area is fronted by white
25 wooden planks giving a slatted effect. The two men had
1 arranged with a woman, the occupant of one of the
2 flats, that she would leave open the gate to her
3 washing area. He and O IRA 2 went into the area,
4 having got a .303 from the bottom of the car. O IRA 1
5 went down and took aim -- he says at the blokes on the
6 left-hand side of the church: 'One of them was putting
7 his head up very cautiously from time to time. I knew
8 he was the one who had shot the two lads' [the
9 journalist has written to himself (O IRA 1 was of
10 course wrong)]. Twice the man put his head up and O
11 IRA 1 did not fire. The third time the man put his
12 head up, O IRA 1 fired. O IRA 2 told him he had hit...
13 "O IRA 1 says he was then tackled, on the
14 stairwell or at the entrance of the washing place to
15 it, by three Provos: PIRA 1, PIRA 2 and PIRA 3. PIRA 2
16 -- the oldest of the group -- took the lead, said 'you
17 cunt' etc. PIRA 1 tried to grab the gun. OIRA 1 stuck
18 it in his stomach and said he 'I'll fucking shoot you',
19 et cetera. PIRA 2 backtracked, said 'there is no need
20 for all of this' et cetera. Agreed that O IRA 1 would
21 not fire again, and he was allowed to depart in
22 peace."
23 Leaving aside the details of this, this is an
24 account of O IRA 1 having shot at soldiers and having
25 shot at soldiers from an area fronted by white-slatted
1 planks in Columbcille Court -- I can show you where
2 that probably is in a moment -- and after he has fired
3 being tackled either on the stairwell or at the
4 entrance of the washing place to it by three
5 Provisionals and, after the exchange of some
6 obscenities, it is all agreed that he will not fire
7 again.
8 As I understand it, you are not conscious of
9 O IRA 1 shooting or any shot occurring after you had
10 seen the incident you have described?
11 A. I was not aware of that at all, no.
12 Q. This account is plainly an account of
13 stopping any further shooting after shooting has
14 already taken place?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And your understanding of what you saw is, as
17 you just confirmed to me, preventing an incident from
18 taking place; is that right?
19 A. That was certainly my impression, yes.
20 Q. Looking at that account, is there anything in
21 it that you recall something similar happening in
22 relation to what you saw other than the fact, of
23 course, that both are accounts of attempting to
24 restrain a man with a rifle from using it?
25 A. All I can say about that is, I take it now
1 that a shot was fired and I, I can just assume that at
2 the time that shot was fired, I was fully involved in
3 the attempted attack on the BBC cameramen and all my
4 attention was given to that because it was -- it did
5 not last long, but it was a bit of a struggle and blows
6 were thrown and so on.
7 Q. There are a number of possibilities, on the
8 assumption that this account has any accuracy at all:
9 one, as you have just described, that a shot was fired
10 when the fracas with the cameraman was going on and
11 what you witnessed happened after that. But your
12 recollection, as I understand it, is that the man with
13 the rifle was being told not to do something in the
14 future?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How confident are you in that recollection?
17 A. Well, my strongest recollection is that --
18 I am confident that words to the effect of orders have
19 been given, there is to be no firing on the day, that
20 that was certainly there. And certainly I had the very
21 strong impression that they were attempting to take the
22 gun from him, but anything outside that, I would not
23 have been aware of.
24 Q. May we then come back to your statement to
25 this Tribunal to paragraphs 26 to 28 that appear at
1 AM450.9? You have described on the previous page how
2 you moved south off along Abbey Street and stopped in
3 the doorway of the Stardust Ballroom. In paragraph 26
4 you describe moving off along Frederick Street towards
5 the Little Diamond?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you describe how, at the roadway just
8 before Fahan Street West becomes Little Diamond, there
9 was a mound of earth or a pile of rubble with people
10 ahead of you going through a gap.
11 So that I can get my bearings, can we have
12 AM450.12 on the screen: you have marked helpfully with
13 an "F" where the mound was and "G" is the place where a
14 bullet struck.
15 Could we have on the screen photograph P225?
16 A. Could I just interrupt there: my impression
17 of that was that the rubble was not across where the
18 "G" is, but across the opening to Frederick Street.
19 Q. It is where the "F" is?
20 A. Yes, exactly.
21 Q. I think, but I would like your confirmation,
22 that we can locate where you are talking about and
23 indeed find the rubble. Here is the Stardust Hall --
24 what was the Stardust Hall; here is, I think,
25 Frederick Street. It looks to me, but tell me if I am
1 right, that there is the rubble; does that seem right
2 to you? Would you like it slightly bigger?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can we restore it and maximize not such a
5 small area. You see where we are?
6 A. I am trying to orientate myself to --
7 Q. Columbcille Court is here. Here is Abbey
8 Street which you went down; here is Frederick Street
9 you turned into.
10 A. This is the Stardust Ballroom here.
11 Q. That is the Stardust there and where
12 Frederick Street meets, the Little Diamond is there?
13 A. I would have moved up to there and the rubble
14 would have been -- it may well have been there, yes.
15 I would point out that by this time all hell was
16 breaking loose in this area so that my attention was
17 down here, rather than looking specifically at exactly
18 where I was, so ...
19 Q. Can we take those arrows off? Why was the
20 rubble there; was it a barricade of sorts?
21 A. No, no, my impression was it was just part of
22 the reconstruction that was going on, uh-huh.
23 Q. In order to get into the Little Diamond you
24 had actually to go through quite a high bit of rubble,
25 did you?
1 A. No, there was a narrow opening on the side
2 furthest away from Frederick Street up, I do not know,
3 2, 3 feet and we went in single file through that.
4 Q. But you had to do that?
5 A. Yes, yes. The rubble did block off the
6 opening or block off the entrance to the street apart
7 from that, yes.
8 Q. Could we have back on the screen paragraph 28
9 at AM450.9: you describe there how as other people
10 made their way through the gap, you moved to do the
11 same but paused at the opening, continuing to look
12 south towards Free Derry Corner?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then moved and seconds later some bullets hit
15 the structure beside you where you had been standing?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Hitting the wall immediately behind where
18 your head had been?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. At the house that you have marked as "G" on
21 the plan?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You fell to the floor with others and more
1 bullets struck the mound of earth or rubble where you
2 had been?
3 A. Yeah, by that time I was on the other side of
4 the pile of rubble, on the Little Diamond side.
5 Q. When you say the bullets hit the wall and
6 bullets struck the mound, what sort of bullets are you
7 talking about?
8 A. Oh, I was pretty sure they were, they were
9 live rounds, yes, by the splinters and earth that was
10 thrown up.
11 Q. You say that you did not look to see where
12 the danger was coming from, but you thought it was
13 probably from the Glenfada Park?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Rossville area. Could we have P225 back on
16 the screen? We can see that in order for a shot to
17 land here, it could have come from the Glenfada Park
18 area, which is here; it could have come from the bottom
19 of Rossville Street?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It could have come from over towards the
22 east. Did you get any impression of the angle at which
23 the shots were travelling?
24 A. Um, level or upwards, apart from that, I do
25 not -- but I mean even that I would not swear to.
1 Q. Can I have on the screen, please, H15.12 and
2 could we highlight paragraph 4: this is a portion of
3 the late Father Mulvey's statement to Lord Widgery's
4 Tribunal, where he appears to be recounting the same
5 incident. What he says is this:
6 "I began to walk towards the Little Diamond
7 intending to watch if possible from a safe distance
8 whatever action took place. I had reached the
9 barricade at the Little Diamond, near the junction with
10 Frederick Street, a distance of two hundred yards or
11 less, when I heard rifle fire and then a distinct
12 whistle or whine of a passing bullet. Everyone there
13 fell flat to the ground. The sound/shooting
14 continued. There were many shots [and when he was
15 giving evidence to Lord Widgery he said that he meant
16 12 or so] and at least one burst of automatic fire for
17 the space of two or three seconds. All the firing that
18 I heard seemed to be in the area of Rossville Street
19 near William Street."
20 Do you recall what sounded like a burst of
21 automatic fire?
22 A. Yes, that was my impression, that there were
23 numerous shots, yes and, and, yes, that, that would fit
24 with my own recollection, there were, um, -- there was
25 a lot of fire and certainly several bullets seemed to
1 strike the earth, the earth and mound behind which we
2 were crouching.
3 Q. I do not want to put Father Mulvey's words
4 into your mouth. He refers to at least one burst of
5 automatic fire.
6 Do you have any recollection of anything that
7 sounded like automatic fire?
8 A. Well, there was so much going on everywhere
9 by that stage. I mean there was gunfire from -- to be
10 heard echoing round the whole of the sort of
11 Glenfada/Rossville Street area that, so it all merged
12 into one more or less continued series of bursts of
13 fire.
14 Q. Series of bursts?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. His statement goes on to say:
17 "All the firing that I heard seemed to be in
18 the area of Rossville Street near William Street."
19 Your statement to us tells us you thought it
20 was probably from the Glenfada Park/Rossville Street
21 area?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Glenfada Park is at one end of
24 Rossville Street and William Street is at the other in
25 a sense. Could you tell from what part of
1 Rossville Street the fire appeared to be coming?
2 A. My impression again would have been of coming
3 from the Rossville Street/William Street junction area,
4 that general area.
5 Q. That general area?
6 A. Which, from where I was, Glenfada Park would
7 have been roughly in that area too and somewhat to my
8 left.
9 Q. He then goes on to say:
10 "I stood behind a gate pillar at the entrance
11 to the former sorting office yard in the Little Diamond
12 and looked towards Rossville Street and the apparent
13 location of the shooting."
14 Could we have on the screen P202.2, I would
15 like your help in identifying a feature. Can I get
16 your bearings for you: this is an aerial photograph;
17 there is William Street; there is the Stardust Hall;
18 there is Frederick Street.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The mound must have been there.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is this, at the bottom of the photograph, the
23 yard that Father Mulvey is probably talking about, do
24 you suppose; do you know what that feature is?
25 A. No -- that of course must have been where he
1 refers to himself standing. I did not -- I was not
2 paying any attention to that at that time, and I was
3 not aware of him being there.
4 Q. Did you know what that place is?
5 A. It had been a sorting office or something,
6 yes.
7 Q. Thank you very much, those are my questions.
8 Questioned by MR A HARVEY
9 MR HARVEY: My name is Arthur Harvey and
10 I appear on behalf of the relatives and a number of the
11 deceased.
12 In relation to the person that you saw with
13 the gun, it would appear that is in an open area behind
14 Columbcille Court?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The statement that has been shown partially
17 to you, the statement of AOIRA 1.1, also indicates that
18 the person whom you recognised had a constant companion
19 and was in the company of another person when a
20 confrontation took place?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recollect whether or not there was
23 another person?
24 A. I was not aware of anybody else, no.
25 Q. Dealing with the person whose identity you
1 now are able to give and supply to the Tribunal: is
2 that a person who is different from PIRA 1, 2 or 3?
3 A. Oh, yes, I am quite clear about O IRA 1 and
4 I believe about -- I am most clear about O IRA 1 and
5 I am reasonably confident about PIRA 1; I presume that
6 is the name that I have given.
7 Q. I am sorry, I added confusion where there
8 might otherwise have been clarity: in your statement
9 you mention the fact that the persons taking your
10 statement mentioned the names of three persons?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who had been abstracted from OIRA 1's
13 statement as being three members of the
14 Provisional IRA.
15 Is it that you did not recognise any of those
16 three, but there is in fact an additional fourth person
17 there that you identified as a member of the
18 Provisional IRA?
19 A. No, it is, it is entirely possible that I was
20 shown three names and that I then realised that the
21 person that I mentioned was there or thereabouts, but
22 was not one of those three.
23 Q. Was not one of those three. What you saw was
24 apparently a confrontation between at least four people
25 or possibly three to four people --
1 A. Initially three and then others joining them.
2 Q. Others joining them. There has been a
3 suggestion from one statement that has been provided,
4 Tony Morton, that in fact Father Bradley may have been
5 somewhere in that vicinity. Mr Bradley, as he is
6 today, denies that, denies he was anywhere in that
7 vicinity.
8 Firstly, would you have recognised
9 Father Bradley on Bloody Sunday?
10 A. I would have known him, but only slightly.
11 I have grown to know him very well since. At that
12 time, while I would have recognised him, he would not
13 have been somebody I was particularly familiar with,
14 no.
15 Q. Did you see Father Bradley anywhere in that
16 scene?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
19 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
20 LORD GIFFORD: I am Anthony Gifford and
21 I represent the family of James Wray. I want to ask
22 you one thing about your experience of the bullets
23 which struck a wall near the pile of rubble where you
24 had been. You have described in rather general terms
25 that at that time, I think in your words, "all hell was
1 breaking loose"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In other words by the time you had the
4 experience of being shot at, as you thought, there had
5 already been shooting erupted in the area of
6 Rossville Street?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And that shooting continued after you had
9 that experience?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I want to try to locate an approximate
12 timescale for the occurrence of that shooting and
13 I would have seen that in the statement of
14 Father Mulvey which was shown to you he puts a time
15 when shots came in that direction as being around 4.15,
16 which is about five minutes after the incident, the
17 army came in.
18 Would you agree with that or would you be
19 able to locate it in the sequence of events?
20 A. I could not myself have given a time, but
21 that would seem to be -- yes, that would certainly be
22 my own strong impression.
23 Q. At a fairly early stage therefore in the
24 general shooting which you did not see but which you
25 heard?
1 A. Yes, my most vivid memory of that, apart from
2 being shot at naturally, my most vivid memory of that
3 was the turmoil that was going on down at Free Derry
4 Corner, of people throwing themselves on the platform,
5 scrambling for safety, hiding and so on and my
6 attention was on that, so --
7 Q. That occurred before you were shot at?
8 A. Just immediately before. Just immediately
9 before. I saw that. Looked at it for some very short
10 while and then started to move through the gap and at
11 that stage there was first the one shots which struck
12 the wall behind my head, or where my head had been, and
13 then, just as I had got to the other side of the
14 rubble, then several other shots striking the earth
15 rubble.
16 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
17 MR GLASGOW: Mr Mullan, my name is Glasgow
18 and I represent many of the soldiers. Could we start
19 at the first page, please, AM450.5? I would like you
20 to help the Tribunal, if you would, with a little more
21 of the background.
22 You have told my learned friend Mr Clarke for
23 the Tribunal that you personally had had no experience
24 of crowd co-operation with gunmen on civil rights
25 marches?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Before this day?
3 A. (Pause) I do not think I had ever experienced
4 that before that day. I do remember one incident, but
5 that was, I think, I am pretty sure 2 or 3 years
6 afterwards.
7 Q. I do not doubt that for one moment, indeed
8 I accept if it is helpful to others that it would have
9 been more prevalent afterwards, but I want your help --
10 A. Not before that day, no, I had no personal
11 experience of it, no.
12 Q. You are not saying, are you, as has been put
13 to some people, that there was no question of IRA
14 gunmen ever getting involved?
15 A. Oh, no.
16 Q. In civil rights marches?
17 A. Oh, no, I am not saying that, no.
18 Q. Indeed, even on this very day you heard a
19 call for a line of fire to be cleared for an IRA
20 gunman?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when you heard that you did not say to
23 yourself "my goodness me, I never heard of civilians
24 clearing a line of fire for a gunman before, this is
25 supposed to be a civil rights march", did you?
1 A. No, no, it was --
2 Q. Indeed, it would not surprise you if other
3 people on this march on hearing shooting had assumed
4 that the IRA were taking advantage of a civil rights
5 march, would it?
6 A. It was much more hurried than that to allow
7 that sort of thing.
8 Q. It would not have surprised you, sir, if
9 people on this march on hearing shooting had assumed
10 that the IRA were taking advantage of the civil rights
11 march?
12 A. That would require speculation as to what
13 I might have thought at the time. I was not aware that
14 I did not -- I had no time for any such thoughts. I do
15 not know, I just do not know.
16 Q. I give you one example. Perhaps you should
17 see it because the Tribunal has a lot of statements
18 from people who may not give evidence themselves.
19 I would like to see whether you could helpfully comment
20 on it for them. One of those statements is from a man
21 called Leo Gallagher; I do not suppose that rings any
22 bells, does it? We have his statement at AM25.3. If
23 we look at paragraph 16 -- I put this because so many
24 astonished and indignant questions have been asked
25 about this -- he says, about hearing shooting in the
1 last three lines:
2 "I thought it was the IRA because at that
3 time, when rioting took place at Lower Road or the
4 junction of Little James Street and Sackville Street,
5 the IRA would sometimes take a shot at the army.
6 Somebody said 'The army are shooting'."
7 Is that the sort of view that you had heard
8 expressed, even on civil rights marches, which is what
9 this gentleman is referring to?
10 A. That certainly would not have been my
11 impression at that time, as opposed to later.
12 Q. Back to your own statement, AM450.5: can
13 I invite you to reconsider your statement at
14 paragraph 2, just three lines up from the bottom? Your
15 description then of the IRA as being "just a few old
16 men with some weapons"; is that, on reflection, really
17 what the IRA in this city consisted of in 1972?
18 A. Oh, no, I said --
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Glasgow, if you look at the
20 sentence Mr Mullan is not suggesting that is the case.
21 I have read the sentence as being referable to the late
22 1960s; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR GLASGOW: I think you are right. You are,
25 therefore drawing attention to a change. I put the
1 question wrongly. When you say "however the IRA were
2 still very small in comparison to what they became
3 after Bloody Sunday"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At the time of Bloody Sunday you would not
6 have been describing it as just "a few old men"?
7 A. Oh, certainly not.
8 Q. I am very sorry, in that case I put the
9 question badly, thank you.
10 On this day, on Bloody Sunday, your
11 recollection is that you did hear for a line of fire to
12 be cleared?
13 A. Um, well, there would not have been any call
14 for that because there was not anybody to clear from a
15 line of fire. I mean, the person who spoke to me was
16 on my left. Immediately in front of me some feet was
17 the gunman and there were not, there were not people to
18 clear out of his way. I mean, where he was headed,
19 there just were not people in his way to get out of the
20 way.
21 Q. There were a few people around in the area,
22 were there not?
23 A. Yes, but they would have been, there would
24 have been no difficulty, my impression of -- that he
25 could, if he wished, fired without, without civilians
1 being in his way.
2 Q. Could I show you the passage that brought it
3 to my mind and you can correct it or correct my
4 misinterpretation if I have got it wrong again; it is
5 in your Sunday Times statement at AM450.14, the last
6 paragraph:
7 "At this point someone approached from the
8 back of the court saying 'Get clear, there is someone
9 here wants to get into action.'".
10 Was that just a question of somebody saying
11 "get out of the way" as distinct from "everybody get
12 out of the way"?
13 A. Um, my impression -- and again this is a long
14 time ago -- but my impression was it was a warning to
15 be, to beware because there was going to be trouble or
16 something, that, you know --
17 Q. A warning to anybody who might be around?
18 A. Yes, yeah.
19 Q. The last matter on your first page, if we go
20 back to your statement to this Tribunal at AM450.5, the
21 last general matter, paragraph 2: you helpfully
22 volunteer and remind us that unlike other marches which
23 had gone through Protestant and loyalist areas, this
24 civil rights march just involved the Catholic area in
25 Derry?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Indeed it may have been the Chairman who
3 reminded you: if it had got to this area, where we are
4 standing, there would have been many witnesses to it
5 who were unsympathetic to it, apart from those in
6 uniform, if it had got to the Guildhall?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But, as it was, are you right in your
9 recollection; please help us because some of us do not
10 know the area even now as well as we perhaps should,
11 there would have been no civilian participants or
12 witnesses to this march and what it encountered other
13 than those who were involved in it or sympathetic with
14 it?
15 A. Yes, that was, as I said to Mr Clarke, I did
16 not, I personally did not expect to get beyond
17 William Street and I did not think the march would and
18 had -- by that stage, I would have expected that there
19 probably would not have been a loyalist demonstration.
20 It is significantly far from a major loyalist area.
21 Q. It did not in the event pass within any area?
22 A. Nowhere near it.
23 Q. Where there would have been civilians who
24 would have been unsympathetic to it?
25 A. Nowhere near it.
1 Q. One matter over the page, your second page,
2 450.6, please: it is just the question of noise, sir.
3 You helped the Tribunal in answering Mr Clarke's
4 questions about this. Just to remind you where we
5 are: we are back in the area where you saw the young
6 man shot and were told that Mr Johnston had been shot.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you with me?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. One matter of noise in that area: did you
11 hear, among other things, rubber bullets being fired in
12 that area?
13 A. I am not presently aware of that.
14 I certainly did hear those towards the bottom of
15 William Street --
16 Q. Behind you?
17 A. Behind me, yes.
18 Q. Over your right shoulder so to speak?
19 A. No, I was not aware of rubber bullets and
20 that being shot in that area.
21 Q. You were aware of soldiers in the area before
22 the shot was fired that you heard?
23 A. Yes, on the opposite side of the street,
24 opposite side of William Street, yes.
25 Q. Did you not hear any rubber bullets being
1 fired by those soldiers or by anybody in that area?
2 A. No, but I had been struggling through the
3 ruined buildings prior to that and if there was any
4 noise to me it would have been just people running,
5 hurrying, whatever. I certainly was not aware of any.
6 Q. Over the page, please, the third page of your
7 statement, AM450.7. It is now the area where I would
8 like you to give a little more help about the
9 individual who you heard being confronted by other
10 people in this area.
11 Paragraph 12, first of all: you describe
12 yourself standing outside the house for a few minutes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That is the house to which the two injured
15 people had been taken?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In Columbcille Court?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you go into the house or just close
20 enough to see and take a peace-keeping role in the
21 fracas?
22 A. I was just, just to the door and partly into
23 the porch way, that was all and it was at that point
24 that the fracas took place.
25 Q. And remained there for some time?
1 A. Only during the argument over the cameramen.
2 Q. If this helps: were you still there when
3 eventually the camera team did leave, despite some
4 people attempting to persuade them to return?
5 A. No, I think my attention was at that time
6 turned towards the gunman, so I did not see them
7 leave. My impression was that they were going to film
8 the two shot people, but without showing their faces,
9 but I, I certainly did not see that take place, nor see
10 them leave.
11 Q. You believed that yours and others'
12 peace-keeping attempts had succeeded and that the
13 filming in a limited way was going to go ahead?
14 A. That was my impression.
15 Q. You do not now have any recollection of being
16 in Kells Walk, the street, while the camera crew almost
17 literally fled?
18 A. No, I certainly did not see them fleeing at
19 all, no.
20 Q. One matter that might jog your memory, sir,
21 if you were there at that time, as you thought when you
22 answered Mr Clarke's questions, that you remained in
23 that street, you may remember, that as that crew were
24 leaving, two of them have given evidence or have made
25 statements referring to a shot being fired in their
1 direction, in other words, a shot which would have come
2 from the area from which you had seen Mr Donaghy shot,
3 that general area, striking a wall on the south side of
4 Kells Walk, the street; you heard and saw nothing of
5 that?
6 A. No, I did not see that at all, no.
7 Q. Could we look at P200 together, please: were
8 you or do you now recall, sir, that the area which I am
9 pointing to on the left-hand side, those three white
10 areas at the eastern end of Columbcille Court were
11 white-slatted, wooden-slatted fronts to that building;
12 does that ring any bells with you?
13 A. I do not remember at all.
14 Q. The Tribunal has been given some accounts of
15 shooting specifically from that area. If that took
16 place, you did not see it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I would like, if I may, to summarise some
19 matters for you. May I explain why, in order to save
20 what would otherwise take a great deal of time which
21 I appreciate we have not got: the Tribunal has been
22 given and has very helpfully distributed to us a great
23 deal of documentation, pieces of paper, both statements
24 and reports to journalists about IRA men/man shooting
25 or being prevented from shooting in this area
1 generally.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But very few people have given evidence about
4 it. Therefore I wanted to put, if I may I hope fairly
5 collectively, the summaries of all of them to see if
6 you can help: some of those witnesses in their pieces
7 of paper and statements that they have made actually
8 refer to hearing shooting coming from the upper floors
9 of the house into which those injured had been taken?
10 A. I cannot really dispute it. It strikes me as
11 strange given I was so close to it that I would not
12 have heard shots from just above my head.
13 Q. You were standing immediately outside it,
14 were you not?
15 A. That is right, yes.
16 Q. Just so that others can keep track on it --
17 I will not dig them all out -- one of them is a man
18 called Joe Carlin who said there was a shot from that
19 house "immediately afterwards", referring to the taking
20 in of the injured people, from an upstairs window?
21 A. You mean when the BBC cameramen were just
22 arriving?
23 Q. Yes. His words are "immediately
24 afterwards", as recorded by the person who took that
25 statement; you do not recall that at all?
1 A. I certainly do not, no.
2 Q. Is it possible that there was then sufficient
3 noise and confusion, and anger and shouting that even a
4 live round being fired might have been concealed?
5 A. It is possible, but, as I say, well a rifle
6 shot is, is very loud and if it were within what would
7 have been 10 feet of me, it strikes me as odd that
8 I would not have heard it, you know.
9 Q. You can understand why I want, if possible,
10 since you are the live witness we have got to comment
11 upon people whose evidence we have not been able to
12 test.
13 Doctor McClean, who is the doctor who treated
14 -- and I think you would have known?
15 A. I know Raymond, yes.
16 Q. He in his statement refers to hearing bursts
17 of gunfire while he was inside treating his patients.
18 They would surely had been audible to you outside?
19 A. Surely, if he was treating his patients,
20 would that not have been some time after I would have
21 left?
22 Q. I do not know, sir, you help us: did you see
23 him arrive?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You did not?
1 A. No, and I certainly would have recognised and
2 I would have known -- I would have remembered if
3 Raymond McClean arrived when I was there.
4 Q. In other words, you can help in his case: it
5 is quite possible, if not likely, that any bursts of
6 fire that he heard would have been after you had left?
7 A. Yes that must have been.
8 Q. Summarising, if I may, to distinguish between
9 those witnesses who in their statements refer to
10 somebody being restrained from firing or confronted
11 after they had fired, you are in no doubt, as you have
12 told the Tribunal, my learned friend's very fair
13 questions, that although you knew of accounts of
14 firing, people who had said somebody had fired in that
15 area, you believe that the man you saw could not have
16 fired either before you saw him or immediately
17 afterwards?
18 A. Well, when you say I heard accounts, I really
19 only heard accounts since --
20 Q. Subsequently?
21 A. Oh, yes. Since that time and at the time,
22 you know, I could not be so positive as to say that he
23 definitely could not have fired. All I could say is
24 that I certainly could not hear it.
25 Q. Correct it if it is wrong, sir, but in the
1 way in which your statement was recorded as AM450.8,
2 which is the fourth page of your statement if you
3 prefer the original and paragraph 24, what I had
4 understood from that was that the use of the word
5 "disarmed" and it may be it was not your word, and you
6 did not intend to say that?
7 A. "Attempted disarming". I noted that when it
8 was shown earlier, yes. That really should be
9 "attempted disarming". As I indicated to Mr Clarke,
10 I certainly did not see the weapon being handed over.
11 I saw the hand of one of the PIRA men on the weapon and
12 attempting to take it from him, but I certainly did not
13 see it being removed from him, no. My attention was
14 turned away at that stage.
15 Q. Those witnesses who describe the gun being
16 removed from that man and actually either dismantled or
17 broken you think, if they are referring to the incident
18 that you saw, they must be wrong?
19 A. Oh, no. As I say, it was still going on.
20 The dispute between himself and the 3, 4, 5 men which
21 it was by that stage, was still going on at the time
22 that the sudden increased noise from the
23 Rossville Street area took my attention totally away
24 from it and I moved off. So I am not disputing what
25 they say, no.
1 Q. Did you see Vinny Coyle who was a very
2 well-known character around; was he around?
3 A. I do not remember seeing Vinny, no.
4 Q. I would be grateful -- I will be as selective
5 as I can -- at least look at the account he gave to the
6 Sunday Times, I think I am right in saying, at about
7 the same time you gave yours. We have it at AC109.2.
8 Taking it from the time when he believes he did hear a
9 shot:
10 "It came from the second storey of Kells
11 Court. Coyle is less than fully frank about what
12 happened. But I take it he met up with the Provo Sean
13 coming over the wasteground. Anyway, Coyle was the
14 bloke who had a furious row with the bloke who fired.
15 And says he seized the gun and broke the butt against
16 the man's chest. Says the chap was not an Official but
17 a freelance."
18 That does not begin to square with your
19 recollection of the confrontation at all?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Vinny Coyle was quite a character, was he
22 not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If he had been making his presence felt in
25 that sort of way in that incident, everybody in the
1 area would have known about it?
2 A. I would think so, yes, he is an extremely big
3 man.
4 Q. You cannot help with that at all, that does
5 not bring back any recollection?
6 A. No. I am not saying that he definitely did
7 not, but I certainly saw nobody break, break the gun
8 and I did not recognise him. But as I indicated
9 earlier, most of those who were approaching the gunmen
10 had their backs to me, but I mean his is an extremely
11 big, broad back.
12 Q. So there is no secrecy and no suspicion that
13 I am just wasting your time or trying to confuse. Can
14 I tell you why: obviously we are very concerned and
15 I am sure the Tribunal is very concerned to know
16 whether there is one or more gunmen in this area?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. One of the other witnesses who does talk
19 about disarming and dismantling is a gentleman called
20 Eamonn Gallagher. He has given evidence. I do not
21 know; does that ring a bell to you?
22 A. I know an Eamonn Gallagher, but it is a
23 common name.
24 Q. The reason why I wanted you to consider one
25 version of the account which he is said to have given,
1 but which in fairness to him he disputes which leaves
2 us in a very difficult position when we are putting
3 things, is a physical description of the man.
4 I will show you the statement if it would
5 help, but otherwise at this hour I would be grateful if
6 you take it from me. What he says, for those who want
7 to check it, it is AG8.7:
8 "He was wearing one of light whitish rain
9 coats, it might have been a three-quarter, and the
10 barrel of his rifle was pointing down from the hem on
11 the right-hand side."
12 On two grounds, firstly, the man you recall
13 it was a dark coat?
14 A. Well, I did say "brownish".
15 Q. But not whitish?
16 A. No, it would not have been my impression.
17 Again, it is --
18 Q. Again you do have a specific recollection,
19 even though I put that to you of the barrel pointing
20 down, which may have been --
21 A. It struck me when Mr Clarke was asking me
22 that I was not absolutely sure whether it was pointing
23 up or down.
24 Q. I think he was being very careful not to lead
25 you in that --
1 A. My memory was it was pointing up, but I would
2 not absolutely swear to that.
3 Q. Is it still, even though I put to you that
4 description of a man wearing at least darkish clothing,
5 not what you would have described as a whitish
6 raincoat?
7 A. I certainly would not have described it as
8 "whitish". My memory of it now is of a sort of a
9 khaki colour really than a yellow, greenish/brownish,
10 that type of thing. Again it is only an impression.
11 Q. The last account I was going to trouble you
12 with, if I may, is a statement by a Gerard Kemp,
13 another reporter, but this time with the
14 Sunday Telegraph who wrote a report that probably came
15 to your attention afterwards, giving an account of what
16 he had been told by various IRA men; do you recall?
17 A. I do not remember, it is quite possible.
18 Q. Does the name ring a bell?
19 A. I remember the name.
20 Q. We should look at his statement, if we may,
21 at M47.1: if I may take it from "Identity secret" can
22 we look at that together to see whether this looks like
23 the same incident and whether there are bits you
24 disagree with:
25 "Last week [this is before he published his
1 article] in the Bogside part of the barricaded 'no-go'
2 area which Roman Catholics call Free Derry I found and
3 interviewed the sniper referred to in the Widgery
4 Report. He is in the Official IRA and he talked on
5 condition his name and rank were not given.
6 "He admitted firing the single high-velocity
7 round but said he did so after he had heard two shots
8 and seen the crowd dragging away the two wounded
9 (Johnson and Donaghy):
10 "The sniper, in his early 20s ...". I pause;
11 would that fit with your description?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. It does.
14 "Said he had shot and killed three British
15 soldiers [that is later] ... he told me 'I did not go
16 on the march. I left my car in Glenfada Park and
17 walked over to Columbcille Court waiting for the
18 marchers to come down. A bit of stoning was going on
19 and then I heard two shots'."
20 If we go over the page, the first half,
21 please, down to people diving, his account is:
22 "I saw the crowd dragging someone back and
23 knew someone had been hit. It was on old fellow and a
24 young boy." Then we come to "rifle in car":
25 "'I went back to my car and got my rifle out
1 of the boot. It is a .303.'"
2 This of course looks like the account you
3 were shown of Official 1?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know enough about weapons to be able
6 to make any comment? You laugh?
7 A. I laugh because I kept insistently thinking
8 to myself, it is a carbine. I would not recognise a
9 carbine from a hole in the hedge.
10 Q. "I walked back to the court and went up the
11 stairs on the way to the upper storey of the
12 maisonettes. I was behind some vertical white planking
13 and over by the Presbyterian Church I could see two
14 soldiers crouching down behind a small wall.
15 "One kept getting up", and then we see the
16 account of the actual shooting:
17 "After I fired that one shot I went back to
18 my car and put the rifle in the boot. 10 to 15 minutes
19 later ...", et cetera.
20 On that view, admittedly it may be a very
21 carefully edited one, I mean by the speaker, somebody
22 goes and takes a shot, but there is no confrontation of
23 any kind.
24 Do you think that may have been possible,
25 that this particular man went and took a shot and went
1 away and what you saw was somebody else coming after
2 him?
3 A. I -- everything up until that last bit is
4 fully consonant with what my memory until the thing
5 about his putting the rifle away and so on, no
6 confrontation. If that is true, then it is not the
7 same person, I do not know.
8 Q. Will you bear with me one second, sir?
9 I will not put anything else unless it has to be, just
10 to make sure there is not anything I ought to have
11 shown to you.
12 Could we go to the fifth page of your
13 statement, 450.9, one more question, if I may, about
14 the shooting that you heard and which you agree seems
15 to have been the same as Father Mulvey was describing?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If there was automatic fire as part of that
18 shooting, did that take place, in your recollection,
19 while there was still a lot of general shooting going
20 on or was it just an isolated incident of automatic
21 fire after most of the shooting had stopped; have
22 I confused you?
23 A. No, no, I am just trying to recall.
24 Q. As long as I have not confused you with the
25 question?
1 A. No, no. My impression was that it was just a
2 continuation, but I mean there were pauses between the
3 bursts of fire. Certainly there could not have been
4 very much time between that and the much more general
5 fire, I will put it that way. We are talking here in
6 terms of minute or seconds or whatever, that type, you
7 know.
8 Q. Whether -- and I am not sure how confident
9 you are about this -- Father Mulvey's description,
10 whether it was even intended to be technically accurate
11 of automatic fire, you at least recall hearing two
12 different types of fire at about that time?
13 A. I do not know about "different types". I am
14 aware of hearing the single shots, the one that was
15 certainly, I take it it was certainly aimed at myself
16 and then after that a continuous fire. Again, as
17 I say, I have no familiarity with weapons, I would not
18 have recognised them as being different, you know.
19 Questioned by MR ELIAS
20 MR ELIAS: Mr Mullan, may I take you back to
21 Columbcille Court for a moment and the gunman that you
22 saw? Could we look again at AM450.4, the Sunday Times
23 plan which is marked? I appreciate what you have
24 said. I do not want to go back over what you have
25 said, but the route drawn here as your route would take
1 you, on the face of it, to what we have been calling,
2 I think, the back of Columbcille Court?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You note it because you were reminded by
5 Mr Clarke earlier, points "A" and "B" on that plan.
6 You say this is --
7 A. Well, "A" and "B" would be my impression of
8 the house into which the two wounded people were taken,
9 but, as I say, I was busy at that stage with helping to
10 carry Mr Johnston and I did not know the area, so
11 I just do not know.
12 Q. I understand that. Can I take you to the
13 narrative that goes with it, the Sunday Times note,
14 AM450.14, and then ask you to look at a photograph with
15 me and the second full paragraph, the top of the page:
16 "I continued along, and circled round [if you
17 would note the word] the back of Columbcille Court,
18 through the archway and into the courtyard. There was
19 a small crowd milling there, upset and I heard the news
20 that a second man had been shot ...
21 "In the courtyard I met an ex-student ... we
22 started to chat. The young boy was carried by a number
23 of men into a house almost by the archway where I was
24 standing. Immediately afterwards a middle-aged man ...
25 [if you come down to the foot of the page, the last
1 paragraph] at this point ... [this is after you have
2 been in the area and 'milling around' as you say,
3 dealing with the victim, the wounded person, then you
4 say] At this point, someone approached from the back of
5 the court saying 'Get clear, there is someone here
6 wants it get into the action'", and so on.
7 You describe what that man was doing and
8 where he was going, the bottom two lines about that man
9 you are describing as the gunman:
10 "He was striding down the back of
11 Columbcille Court in the direction of
12 Rossville Street. (Down A)", which is the point we
13 looked at on that plan.
14 "I moved out to B", again which is the point
15 we saw on that plan.
16 Can I ask you, bearing that in mind, to look
17 at photograph P200? I am going to point out to you
18 what you can probably see, Mr Mullan, yourself. In the
19 area where the Sunday Times shows an arrow, there is
20 indeed an archway?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And an archway at the other end of the
23 building now being shown to you, which is where the
24 Sunday Times plan actually shows you coming round; do
25 you follow; there is an archway at both ends?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The red arrow would be the archway which
3 would represent the arrow on the Sunday Times plan?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As to your route -- and the yellow arrow
6 would represent an archway where this Tribunal has
7 already been told -- within that archway there is the
8 doorway through which the injured people were taken
9 into the flat?
10 A. It is the yellow archway certainly, yes.
11 Q. Could it be, looking at that and having
12 regard to what was drawn on the Sunday Times plan and
13 your account to the Sunday Times, that it was indeed at
14 the back of that building that you saw the gunman to
15 whom you are referring?
16 A. Um, yeah. Well, as I indicated earlier, my
17 impression was that I moved round there and somewhere
18 in this region of the house and that really only
19 because of the impression of more modern building
20 behind the gunman, that it probably then was there,
21 but, as I say, in a way I have confused myself with
22 back to front and so on.
23 Q. Given what you were saying to the
24 Sunday Times, given the fact the archways are there as
25 we can see them in the photograph, it is at least a
1 possibility, is it, if not a probability that actually
2 you saw your gunman, behind, at the back of
3 Columbcille Court, in the courtyard as you have
4 described it --
5 A. Do you mean there?
6 Q. Yes, where the blue arrow is?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much indeed. Can I ask you
9 this also --
10 LORD SAVILLE: Did you want to save that
11 because there is a reference to the blue arrow?
12 MR ELIAS: I would be very grateful, sir.
13 MR CLARKE: AM450.16.
14 MR ELIAS: Thank you very much indeed.
15 Did you at any time, either at the back or
16 front of that building, in the vicinity of that
17 building see any civilian with a pistol?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You heard no pistol fire?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR CLARKE: Could we have AM450.16 back. For
23 the sake of the transcript: the blue arrow, which is
24 showing the back, is where you think you probably saw
25 the gunman?
1 A. It can only be probable, that is all.
2 Q. Sorry?
3 A. It can only be probable.
4 Q. Quite. It my not matter too much, but as to
5 the route that you took to get there, where are we now
6 as to how you think you got to the back of
7 Columbcille Court, do you still think you went in
8 a sense in the direction shown by the yellow arrow,
9 that is to say from the wasteland to the front of
10 Columbcille Court and then round the back, or do you
11 think you went in the direction which is shown by the
12 red arrow?
13 A. Definitely not the red arrow.
14 Q. Definitely not the red arrow. Although that
15 is what the Sunday Times appears --
16 A. The Sunday Times account is mistaken there,
17 yes.
18 Q. Before we go there is something I think
19 I ought to say in relation to what appears on
20 Mr Mullan's statement. Could we have back on the
21 screen AM450.8 and could we have paragraph 24
22 highlighted? The statement as recorded in the second
23 line says:
24 "I have been asked whether I recognised any
25 of the three men who disarmed [O IRA 1] and
1 particularly whether any of them were [PIRA 3, PIRA 2
2 or PIRA 1]"; those are the ciphers contained in the
3 Sunday Times document.
4 In the next sentence but one it reads:
5 "I would not have known the other persons
6 named but would have recognised", and there is then a
7 blank.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr Mullan may have been in some difficulty in
10 answering some of the questions because the words in
11 the blank, which are the same words, as those that he
12 has written on the piece of paper that he signed this
13 afternoon contain a name and a description, which may
14 or may not be the same person as PIRA 3. The Inquiry
15 does not know for certain to which person bearing that
16 name O IRA 1 was referring in the interview with the
17 Sunday Times, assuming for the moment that document is
18 genuine.
19 Mr Mullan's unredacted statement and his note
20 assigned today refer to the person who has both the
21 name and the description which is in the blank.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you, Mr Clarke.
23 Mr Mullan, the Chairman again. Thank you
24 very much indeed for coming here to assist this
25 Inquiry, thank you.
1 A. Thank you, sir.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 LORD SAVILLE: Do we have the same list for
4 tomorrow?
5 MR CLARKE: Yes, the same as before.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Very well, 9.30, please.
7 (5.00 pm)
8 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am
9 on Thursday, 4th October 2001)
10 Mr James Patrick McNulty, sworn
11 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY............................. 1
12 Questioned by MR TREACY............................. 30
13 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD.......................... 32
14 Questioned by MR P CLARKE........................... 36
15 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN....................... 50
16 Mr Paul Coyle, sworn
17 Questioned by MR RAWAT.............................. 53
18 Questioned by MR TREACY............................. 84
19 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD.......................... 88
20 Questioned by MR P CLARKE........................... 90
21 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 105
22 MR OLIVER GREEN, sworn
23 Questioned by MR RAWAT............................. 108
24 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD......................... 124
25 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 126
1 MR JOHN MICHAEL MCCOURT, sworn
2 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY........................... 133
3 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD......................... 156
4 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 164
5 MR PETER MULLAN, affirmed
6 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................ 178
7 Questioned by MR A HARVEY.......................... 224
8 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD......................... 226
9 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 228
10 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 250