1 Thursday, 6th September 2001
2 (9.40 am)
3 MR CLARKE: Before we resume the evidence,
4 there is something I should say that arises out of
5 yesterday's proceedings.
6 In the course of the evidence of Mr Rigney,
7 my learned friend Lord Gifford interrupted to say in
8 relation to a question of mine, by reference to
9 pictures of John Young, Jim Wray and William Nash,
10 which I described as pictures of them rioting, he
11 intervened to say that it was not right to say that we
12 have seen a picture of Jim Wray rioting, and in that he
13 was correct. The pictures that we have of Jim Wray at
14 barrier 14 -- we need not turn them up -- the
15 references are P675, which is a picture of him sitting
16 down, and P676, which is a picture of him with a
17 banner. I had momentarily confused the position, I had
18 in my mind photograph P386, which is a photograph of
19 people behind a barrier which appears to show
20 Michael Bridge, but not Jim Wray.
21 Whilst I am on that, at page 47 and 48 of
22 yesterday, Day 136, my learned friend is recorded as
23 saying:
24 "I do not think it is right to say that we
25 have seen a picture of Jim Wray rioting, we have seen
1 him at the barrier in one case sitting down and in the
2 one case with a barrier."
3 What I think my learned friend meant to say
4 was "and in the one case with a banner", but what has
5 been recorded is "and in the one case with a barrier",
6 which is not at all what I believe he meant to say, but
7 I am happy to confirm the photographs that we have of
8 Jim Wray are the ones that I mentioned, the one with
9 him sitting down and the one with him holding a banner.
10 LORD GIFFORD: I thank Mr Clarke for his
11 clarification.
12 MR CLARKE: I am sorry I made the mistake.
13 MR JACK NASH, sworn
14 Questioned by MR CLARKE
15 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Nash, I say this to all the
16 witnesses: the questions will come from the Counsel in
17 front of me. Just try and remember to keep your face
18 fairly close to that microphone so we can all hear what
19 you have to say.
20 MR CLARKE: Mr Nash, do you have with you
21 your statement to this Tribunal which you signed on
22 27th April last year?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If we could have on the screen AN17.2, in
25 paragraph 11, you refer to being with the group which
1 went forward to lift Michael Kelly.
2 The third sentence reads:
3 "We opened his coat and I can remember that
4 there was a small hole but no blood."
5 That is followed by a sentence:
6 "I was then in the group that helped to carry
7 him into the shelter of the gable end wall of
8 Glenfada Park North."
9 I understand those two sentences should be
10 reversed, that is to say to explain that you opened his
11 coat after he had been carried into the shelter of the
12 gable end wall; is that right?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Subject to that qualification, are the
15 contents of this, your statement, true to the best of
16 your knowledge and belief?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Because we have all had the opportunity of
19 reading it, I want, if I may, simply to pick up certain
20 parts of the statement. You describe in paragraph 6 at
21 the bottom of the first page the time when you reached
22 the rubble barricade in Rossville Street and heard
23 Saracens coming into Rossville Street, if we can go
24 over the top of the page down to the end of
25 paragraph 7, you heard Saracens coming in from the
1 north. You say you knew what a Saracen was and what
2 was happening and people who were in the melee moved
3 away and some people shouted "here they come".
4 Can I concentrate for a moment on the
5 position on the ground when you saw the Saracens coming
6 in, having reached the barricade. Firstly, do you
7 remember what sort of number of people there were at
8 the barricade at this stage, the same time as you?
9 A. Not actually on the street, around the
10 Glenfada Park area there were quite a number of people,
11 perhaps 40, 50, maybe 30.
12 Q. You have partly answered my next question.
13 You say "not actually on the street"; were there any
14 people between the rubble barricade in Rossville Street
15 and the north of Rossville Street on or around the
16 street itself?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you give us any idea what sort of numbers
19 of people were around at this stage when the Saracens
20 first came in?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When the Saracens came in, did the people
23 that you could see in Rossville Street disperse?
24 A. Not -- they did not move away from the area
25 around the barricade, they just stayed there.
1 Q. So the people at the barricade just stayed
2 there, what about the people who you had seen in
3 Rossville Street?
4 A. Sorry, which part of the barricade do you
5 remember to?
6 Q. As the Saracens come in, you are at the
7 barricade?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. There is quite a sizeable part of
10 Rossville Street between the barricade and the junction
11 with William Street where the Saracens came in.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I understood you to say, tell me if
14 I misunderstood, that you could see some people, not at
15 the barricade, but in Rossville Street itself?
16 A. I took you to mean between Glenfada Park and
17 the middle of the road.
18 Q. We may have been at crossed purposes. When
19 you were at the barricade and saw the Saracens come in
20 down Rossville Street, were there people in and around
21 Rossville Street, that is to say between the barricade
22 and the incoming Saracens at the time that the Saracens
23 came in?
24 A. No, very few if there were at all.
25 Q. Very few ...?
1 A. If there were at all.
2 Q. So when you describe in the second line the
3 fact that people who were in the melee moved away and
4 some people shouted "here they come", that is a
5 reference to people who were at the barricade?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you say that the Saracens did not come up
8 close and there was a vacant space between soldiers at
9 the north end of Rossville Street and those of you who
10 were at the barricade.
11 You describe lifting some stones from the
12 barricade and starting to chuck them. Do you know
13 approximately how many people were engaged in throwing
14 stones towards the soldiers?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You say that some of the soldiers were out by
17 the Saracens, some had moved over towards the flats at
18 Kells Walk and some were on the wasteground, and there
19 may have been some soldiers on a pram ramp at
20 Kells Walk who were firing.
21 What sort of firing did you hear at this
22 stage?
23 A. Rubber bullets.
24 Q. You say that there may have been some
25 soldiers on a pram ramp, should we understand from that
1 that you are not quite sure whether there were soldiers
2 on a pram ramp?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. May they possibly have been by the side of
5 the pram ramp at Kells Walk?
6 A. Well, I know there were soldiers beside the
7 ramp, on the ground.
8 Q. You describe how you could see soldiers
9 coming up against the wall and falling down to
10 Glenfada Park. When you say that you saw them coming
11 up against the wall, are you able to indicate what wall
12 you are talking about, either by reference to a map or
13 I could show you a photograph which might assist?
14 A. If you can show me the photograph.
15 Q. Could we have a look at EP21.2? This is an
16 aerial photograph taken somewhere nearer the time and
17 -- could I have control, please -- here is
18 Kells Walk. Here is the pram ramp which is below
19 Kells Walk, here is Glenfada Park North, here is the
20 rubble barricade where you were. When you describe
21 some of the soldiers as coming up against the wall and
22 falling down to Glenfada Park, which wall is it that
23 you are referring to?
24 A. Sorry, I was not referring to soldiers, I was
25 referring to rubber bullets.
1 Q. You could see the rubber bullets coming up
2 against the wall?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Which wall were you referring to?
5 A. This one here.
6 Q. We can set it up so you can identify the wall
7 in question. Could you point it out again?
8 A. (Marked with a red arrow) That is the wall
9 I am referring to.
10 Q. You mean the gable wall of --
11 A. It would have been the front of the houses.
12 Q. The east side of Glenfada Park North east
13 side at the southern end, just round the corner from
14 the gable wall.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 LORD SAVILLE: That is the side facing onto
18 Rossville Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR CLARKE: You have identified yourself as
21 one of the people on the barricade in an anorak. You
22 have the photograph as Appendix 1; can we have on the
23 screen EP23.4, which will be a better version of it.
24 You have identified yourself as being this
25 man on the right?
1 A. Yes, I said that looked like me.
2 Q. Do you know who any of the other people are?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What appears to be happening in this
5 photograph is that some people are going forward from
6 the barricade. Can you recall what was going on or
7 must have been going on at the time when this
8 photograph was taken?
9 A. No.
10 Q. We have a series of photographs, of which
11 this is one, which -- it is rather difficult to get the
12 sequence of, but I would invite your assistance if you
13 can give us any about what they show.
14 Could we have on the screen EP27.6? This is
15 a photograph which was taken from the pram ramp to the
16 north of Glenfada Park South. It shows exactly what
17 you describe in paragraph 6 of your statement, namely,
18 that the soldiers did not come up close and there was
19 indeed a vacant space between the rubble barricade and
20 the soldiers themselves. This photograph is
21 immediately followed in sequence, taken by the same
22 photographer, by EP27.7 where we can see that a number
23 of people appear to be cowering or beginning to crouch.
24 Do you recall there being that sort of number
25 of people around behind the barrier on the Glenfada
1 side at the time when you were there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If we go to EP27.8 -- is there anybody in
4 that photograph whom you recognise?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who, could you tell us?
7 A. The gentleman here (marked with a blue
8 arrow); the gentleman here (marked with a blue arrow);
9 and the gentleman here (marked with a blue arrow).
10 Q. Can we take all those arrows off for the
11 moment. The gentleman here on the right is?
12 A. Jim McCafferty.
13 Q. The gentleman in the middle is?
14 A. Terry O'Keefe.
15 Q. And the man there is?
16 A. Daniel Gorman.
17 Q. Could we preserve that as AN27.17?
18 Perhaps I should go back to the previous
19 photograph, EP27.6. Is there anybody you recognise in
20 that photograph whom you have not previously pointed
21 out?
22 A. No, apart from Danny Gorman, and Terry
23 O'Keefe is at back.
24 Q. Could we then look at EP27.8? This is the
25 third photograph in the sequence taken by the same
1 photographer. We can see a number of young men behind
2 the barricade in Rossville Street itself, with the army
3 vehicles behind. Is there anybody in that photograph
4 whom you recognise?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Then the next photograph is EP27.9. Again,
7 I presume there is nobody in that photograph who you
8 recognise?
9 A. It is much too blurred even.
10 Q. Sorry?
11 A. It is much too blurred even to hazard a
12 guess.
13 Q. May we go back to your statement at AN27.2,
14 paragraphs 8 to 10.
15 You describe how at this stage you were not
16 particularly concerned because you were well away from
17 the soldiers and you could see the rubber bullets that
18 were coming down, but then suddenly a youth fell behind
19 the barricade slightly in front of you as you faced
20 north and a little to your left with his back to you
21 looking north; is that right?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. You say that he had done nothing prior to
24 falling to attract your attention and that you have no
25 specific recollection of this particular youth throwing
1 stones.
2 Was he in a group of people, some of whom
3 were throwing stones?
4 A. He may well have been.
5 Q. You then saw him collapse and that youth, as
6 we now know, is Michael Kelly. If we go back to
7 photograph EP27.7, if we may, we know from your
8 evidence and that of many others that this is
9 Michael Kelly. At the time when --
10 A. Sorry, could I correct you there, I did not
11 say at any time that that was Michael Kelly.
12 Q. Sorry, I thought he was one of the people
13 whom you recognised?
14 A. No, he was not.
15 Q. I beg your pardon. Can you recognise that
16 person as being Michael Kelly?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Can you recognise that person as being the
19 youth who fell?
20 A. Yeah, afterwards. I did not know at the time
21 that that was Michael Kelly.
22 Q. Leave aside his name, can you recognise the
23 person in the photograph that I have marked with the
24 arrow as being the man who fell or not?
25 A. No.
1 LORD SAVILLE: The reason, Mr Nash, we are
2 asking these questions, if you look at paragraph 10 of
3 your statement, AN27.2, right in the middle of that
4 paragraph, it says:
5 "Appendices 2 and 3 to this statement show
6 this youth before he fell and I now know him to be
7 Michael Kelly."
8 I understand, Mr Clarke, this is no doubt why
9 you are asking questions. If one looks at appendices 2
10 and 3, this is the photograph you are showing. Can we
11 get this clear: are you able or not able to pick out
12 the person you saw shot from the photograph that
13 Mr Clarke has just shown you?
14 A. I am able to pick him out from lying
15 (inaudible) on the ground, standing in front of me.
16 I just saw the back of someone and that was the person
17 who fell. I did not know that he was Michael Kelly,
18 that is the point I am trying to make, sir.
19 LORD SAVILLE: I follow that, yes.
20 MR CLARKE: Looking at this photograph, are
21 you able from this photograph to tell where the person
22 whom you saw fall fell, the place where he fell?
23 A. Well, if you go on to the next photograph, or
24 the photograph, he is lying on the ground, it actually
25 shows where he fell.
1 Q. When you say "the next photograph", can we
2 have EP32.2; is that what you are referring to?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that the person whom you saw fall in the
5 place where you saw him fall?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We can see that that is just on the pavement,
8 the edge of which is where I am pointing on the west
9 side of Rossville Street to the east side of
10 Glenfada Park.
11 Would I be right in thinking, therefore, that
12 you had been, as it were, outside this photograph, but
13 somewhere in this direction (indicating)?
14 A. Sorry, I would have been slightly this
15 direction (indicating).
16 Q. As it were, to the bottom right-hand side of
17 the photograph, but off the photograph, obviously?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know what was happening so far as the
20 other people in this photograph are concerned? If we
21 look at it there are some people on the left, or a
22 person on the left who seems to be kneeling or
23 crouching on the ground; do you know what was happening
24 there?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Could we have a look, please, at EP32.1? The
2 photographer who took the photograph we were looking at
3 a moment ago also, I think, took this photograph. We
4 have heard evidence from the person who is shown in the
5 bottom right-hand corner that, after Michael Kelly had
6 fallen, he ran off.
7 Do you recall seeing that man?
8 A. No.
9 Q. We can see slightly more clearly in this
10 photograph what is going on on the left-hand side, with
11 at least two people on the ground. Again, you are not
12 able to help us as it why they were on the ground?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. May we then come, please, to
15 AN27.2, paragraph 11? You describe how you went
16 forward with others to lift Michael Kelly up, helped
17 carry him towards the gable end and then opened his
18 coat and saw a small hole but no blood.
19 During all this time, that is to say from the
20 time that you were at the barricade until you were in
21 Glenfada Park North with Michael Kelly's body, had you
22 seen anybody at the barricade with a weapon or a nail
23 bomb, or anything that looked like either of those?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Had anybody, so far as you were aware fired
1 anything, rifle, pistol, bomb, whatever?
2 A. No.
3 Q. From the barricade towards the soldiers?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Or done anything antagonistic other than
6 throw stones?
7 A. No.
8 MR TOOHEY: Mr Nash, would you look to your
9 right, please? Could you help me with this: you
10 described how you were coming down Rossville Street;
11 were you, as it were, on your way to the barricade or
12 did it happen that as you reached the barricade, you
13 saw the Saracens coming in and then you remained at the
14 barricade?
15 A. I was in that general area just around where
16 the large group of people are.
17 MR TOOHEY: As you were coming down
18 Rossville Street, were you bound for any particular
19 place, for instance where the meeting was to be held or
20 --
21 A. Yeah, I would have been on the Free Derry
22 Corner side of the barricade. I was not going down
23 Rossville Street, I was going back up Rossville Street
24 towards the Free Derry Corner.
25 MR TOOHEY: Sorry, we are probably using up
1 and down in different ways?
2 A. You would say north would be
3 Rossville Street/William Street, Free Derry Corner
4 would be south.
5 MR TOOHEY: You are coming south in
6 Rossville Street. My question was: were you intending
7 to go to the barricade or did it just happen that as
8 the Saracens came in, you were at the barricade and
9 remained there?
10 A. That is where I was.
11 MR TOOHEY: Yes, thank you.
12 MR CLARKE: Could we then come, please, to
13 paragraphs 12 to 14 on the following page? You
14 describe putting Michael Kelly down by the footpath and
15 you have identified yourself in the photographs which
16 are attached to your statement, the group huddled
17 around Michael Kelly's body.
18 Could we have a look at AN27.12? This is the
19 place where you have identified yourself, as there,
20 still with the anorak on?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you have identified this man here as Hugh
23 Murray?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Immediately behind Hugh Murray there is a man
1 on the ground; do you know anything about how he found
2 himself on the ground like that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If we look at the next photograph that is
5 attached to your statement, AN27.14, you have
6 identified Father Bradley and Christopher Doherty and
7 Father O'Keefe; do you know what was going on, as is
8 shown in this photograph?
9 A. No.
10 Q. May we then go back to paragraphs 13 and 14
11 on AM27.3? You describe turning around at some stage
12 and looking back towards the barricade and seeing other
13 people on the barricade, in particular three people
14 lying together: one with his right arm up in the air
15 you recognised as Alexander Nash and two others lying
16 close to him, one to the north and one to the south.
17 You say that you think that they were all lying on
18 their backs, one of them with his face towards
19 Glenfada Park North.
20 When you say that you think they were all
21 lying on their backs, is that a reference to the two
22 people other than Alexander Nash?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can we have on the screen photograph EP29.6?
25 If we could try and lighten that up a little. This is
1 a photograph that was taken from a circulating
2 helicopter on the day. On the top of the photograph
3 there is what we are calling block 1 of the
4 Rossville Flats, the block that looks out on to
5 Rossville Street. Here is Rossville Street. Here is
6 the gap in the barricade in Rossville Street; there is
7 the barricade; here is the corner of
8 Glenfada Park North; and there is the entrance into
9 Glenfada Park.
10 Would you be able at all to indicate, if we
11 give you control of this screen, where you think that
12 you saw Alexander Nash and the two people lying close
13 to him, one to the north and one to the south?
14 A. From what I was seeing, they were roughly
15 around this area (marked with a pink arrow).
16 Q. That is to say in Rossville Street, roughly
17 to the east of the gap in the barricade; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Perhaps we could preserve that as AN27.18.
20 Thereafter, as I understand it, you moved away and made
21 your way southwards through Glenfada Park South and
22 therefore did not see what happened to any of the
23 bodies that you had seen at the barricade; is that
24 right?
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. Those are my questions, thank you very much.
2 Questioned by MR MACDONALD
3 MR MACDONALD: Mr Nash, my name is MacDonald
4 and I represent the family of Michael Kelly.
5 Mr Nash, can I ask you to look at EP27.7?
6 Mr Nash, that is the last photograph that was taken of
7 Mr Kelly before he was hit. I would like you to look
8 at the next photograph that was taken of him so that
9 I can ask your assistance about the timescale that may
10 have been involved here.
11 The next photograph is EP32.1. Now, you can
12 see that Mr Kelly appears to be lying close to the
13 wooden cross on the barbed wire barricade there; is
14 that right, do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you look back again at EP27.7, you can see
17 where that wooden cross is just to the right of
18 Michael Kelly in that photograph?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Can you say where you were in relation to
21 Michael Kelly at the time -- point when EP27.7 was
22 taken, this current photograph that is on the screen?
23 A. I believed, and I am not quite sure, but the
24 person at the corner of the photograph was me, I am not
25 quite sure.
1 Q. At which corner?
2 A. Just beside Mr McCafferty, I am not quite
3 sure.
4 Q. Can you point that out on the screen?
5 A. (Marked with a blue arrow).
6 Q. Is that a figure wearing a hood?
7 A. It is an anorak with a hood up.
8 Q. An anorak with a hood up, you think that is
9 you, or may be you?
10 A. It may be me.
11 Q. Can you offer any estimate of how much time
12 had passed between the taking of that photograph,
13 EP27.7, and the taking of the next photograph showing
14 Michael Kelly on the ground; was it a matter of seconds
15 or more?
16 A. It could have been. It certainly was not a
17 few seconds, it would have been more than a few
18 seconds, if you would take where we are standing there
19 and where Mr Kelly fell was to the left of that again,
20 yeah, to the right of that again in the photograph. So
21 there would have been -- there would not have been a
22 few seconds, it may have been some seconds or it may
23 have been a few minutes, I am not quite sure.
24 Q. Would it have been more than a minute, do you
25 think? If you cannot say --
1 A. I cannot say, honestly I cannot say. It
2 certainly was not seconds.
3 Q. Do you recall that scene that is depicted in
4 EP27.7?
5 A. Vaguely, yeah, I mean, I am in that area and
6 I was standing behind Mr Kelly and to his -- to his
7 right, he was to my left and ahead of me.
8 Q. Do you recall what transpired between the
9 taking of this photograph and the taking of the next
10 photograph depicting Mr Kelly on the ground?
11 A. All that I was aware of was the gas and the
12 rubber bullets, that was all and everybody was, that
13 I could see, was facing towards the, the army.
14 Q. Finally, Mr Nash, can I on behalf of the
15 Kelly family thank you for the assistance that you
16 rendered to Michael Kelly that day?
17 A. Thank you.
18 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD
19 MR MANSFIELD: I represent the Nash family
20 and Alexander Nash in particular. I just have one
21 question: you were shown an aerial photograph a moment
22 ago by Mr Clarke who sits in front, do you remember,
23 and you were asked to place, if you could, on the
24 photograph where you thought you had seen Mr Nash on
25 that day.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What I want to do is in fact just ask you to
3 look at a still we have seen before, it is video 48, an
4 ABC video shot. The question I am wanting to ask when
5 you see the video is whether in fact Mr Nash could have
6 been further across towards Glenfada Park, in other
7 words on the Glenfada Park side of the gap that exists
8 within the barrier. It is segment 47 of this video.
9 You will see it coming up in a moment. It is a shot
10 taken down Rossville Street towards the barrier with
11 Joseph Place in the background, Glenfada Park on the
12 right and I suggest to you that the man with his right
13 hand in the air is Alexander Nash and he is therefore
14 on the Glenfada Park side of the rubble barricade; do
15 you follow?
16 A. Yes.
17 LORD SAVILLE: We go a better representation
18 of this yesterday, did we not? I mean someone who does
19 not know this video, it is very difficult even to tell
20 it is a person being depicted. I do not know how we
21 managed to do that, but it was a very much better
22 still.
23 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, at some point it might be
24 convenient, I happen to have a photographic
25 reproduction of the still. It has not been produced
1 yet.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Of the better quality --
3 MR MANSFIELD: Of the better quality one.
4 LORD SAVILLE: I think it would be a good
5 idea if we could have that as a listed document.
6 MR MANSFIELD: It was certainly brought up
7 yesterday.
8 LORD SAVILLE: That is rather better anyway.
9 It might do for your purposes today.
10 MR MANSFIELD: Please understand, Mr Nash,
11 I am not in any way questioning what you saw, it is
12 only in fact whether he might have been further over on
13 the road towards Glenfada Park on the barrier; do you
14 think that may be right?
15 A. For my own recollection, I was away back in
16 Glenfada Park at that stage, I was looking out. He was
17 definitely lying on the rubble. I was taking it from
18 my perception he was further away.
19 Q. Sir, I will make sure there are copies of
20 this available, the video still. Thank you very much.
21 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
22 MR GLASGOW: Mr Nash, my name is Glasgow,
23 I represent many of the soldiers. While we have that
24 in front of us, could I ask you, you may not be able to
25 help about this, I shall just tell you why I am asking
1 it: we believe from looking at this video which is part
2 of the newsreel taken by ABC, that this particular part
3 of film is taken just after a Saracen has come down
4 Rossville Street, collected three bodies and gone back
5 up. I say that because the very next frames that we
6 see, admittedly after a break in the film, clearly show
7 a Saracen going north away from the barricade up
8 Rossville Street. Am I right in thinking that whenever
9 that happened, you were not around when that Saracen
10 came down and collected the bodies, you had left?
11 A. Yeah, I would not have seen it because
12 I actually would have been around the corner of
13 Glenfada Park.
14 Q. You cannot help the Tribunal at all as to
15 whether Mr Nash may have moved or as to where he was if
16 he was present when that took place?
17 A. Sorry, could you rephrase that, please?
18 Q. Yes, you did not see Mr Nash move at all at
19 any stage?
20 A. I just saw him lying on the ground.
21 Q. For confirmation -- I am not disputing it,
22 sir -- the best recollection you have is of seeing him
23 with other bodies more in the middle of the road?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Thank you very much. I will put a few
1 matters, please, earlier on in the statement to see if
2 you can help the Tribunal.
3 Could we go back to the first page, please,
4 AN27.1? In the first paragraph, Mr Nash, you refer to
5 the fact that you made a statement at Brigid Bond's
6 house. It is right we have heard of a number of people
7 who did. Do you have any idea what happened to that?
8 A. Absolutely none.
9 Q. Can you remember, was that part of a general
10 exercise; were there a number of people there making
11 statements, or was it just you making your own
12 statement to somebody there?
13 A. No, I was aware that a number of people --
14 anybody had been asked to come along and make
15 statements and I went along and made a statement.
16 Q. The Tribunal has also been told that those
17 statements were made and taken in a number of places,
18 quite a number of them in a school. Your recollection
19 is that you gave your statement in the Bond's house?
20 A. In a house, yes.
21 Q. The last matter on that: you say there was
22 another person with you, do you happen to remember who
23 that was?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Unless there is any embarrassment, may I ask
1 who that was?
2 A. I did not ask the person could I mention the
3 name, but I have no problem in asking the person is it
4 okay if I mention their name.
5 Q. I see.
6 A. It was a work colleague of mine who went
7 along with me.
8 Q. Do you happen to know, Mr Nash, whether he or
9 she has given a statement to this Inquiry to help?
10 A. I have absolutely no idea.
11 Q. No idea. If the Inquiry does need to know
12 your help on that, you would be willing to help them.
13 I do not take it further.
14 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Nash, did the person who
15 accompanied you also make a statement?
16 A. Not at the time I was there. An actual fact,
17 they were not at the rally at all on Bloody Sunday.
18 LORD SAVILLE: Just came along with you as a
19 friend and colleague?
20 A. Yes, he was a work colleague who came along
21 with me.
22 MR GLASGOW: I make it clear I do not take it
23 any further, thank you.
24 A. I am quite happy to ask that person to verify
25 that I made a statement.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Do you know whether that
2 person was on the march or in the area on that day?
3 A. No, he was not.
4 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure we need bother
5 you in that case, unless you have reason to believe he
6 might be able to help the Inquiry?
7 A. No, he went along with me as a colleague to
8 make a statement. He was not at the march.
9 LORD SAVILLE: We have quite a few witnesses,
10 so I think we can leave that one out for the time being
11 at least, thank you.
12 A. That is why I did not wish to implicate him
13 for simply being along with me.
14 MR GLASGOW: Forgive me for raising it,
15 I take it no further.
16 Could we go to the second page, we have it as
17 AN27.2, the top paragraph, the second half of
18 paragraph 6? You have told the Tribunal this morning
19 that your recollection of when you were at the rubble
20 barricade is of a very few people on the William Street
21 side in Rossville Street to the north of that
22 barricade; that is right?
23 A. That would be down where the Saracens were,
24 I take that.
25 Q. Between you and the army?
1 A. Between the group of people and the army
2 there were very few people in between I could see.
3 Q. Is your recollection, sir, there was ever a
4 time when there were a number of people to the north of
5 the barricade?
6 A. That is not my recollection.
7 Q. I ask you because I am acutely conscious that
8 perceptions, honest perceptions can be different and
9 that honest people can give different accounts of what
10 they recall, but one of the versions of events, I say
11 uncritically, that the Tribunal has been given, is of a
12 number of people fleeing south across that barricade
13 after shooting started, and indeed being shot in the
14 back while doing so.
15 Did you see anything at all that could
16 explain that perception, if it be the perception of
17 people, that that happened?
18 A. As you say, it is a perception for the people
19 who were there on the day, not for the people who are
20 asking them questions now. They can only give you the
21 best answer they possibly can --
22 Q. You did not see anything that could explain
23 that?
24 A. As I understand from the information
25 available and what I have read, the people shot in the
1 back were on the Rossville Street side, they were not
2 over at the side of the street I was on.
3 Q. You never saw an occasion when a number of
4 people, I mean a group of more than a few, were running
5 down Rossville Street over the barricade towards you?
6 A. No -- sorry, they would not have been running
7 towards me. They would have been running towards --
8 Q. Towards Free Derry Corner?
9 A. At my right.
10 Q. You never saw that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever see a time, reminding you of the
13 photograph that Mr Clarke showed you which appears --
14 it can be very misleading -- to show people going
15 forwards over the barricade; did you ever see that?
16 A. I am not sure about going forwards over it,
17 people were around it.
18 Q. It may be unfair if I do not show the
19 photograph, I am probably trying to save time
20 stupidly. Can we look again at EP23.4? I think the
21 suggestion helpfully and fairly made is that that may
22 show people in the process of going forward, in other
23 words towards the soldiers, and it shows you, I think
24 -- so far as you can say -- on the right-hand side?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember that kind of movement?
2 Again, to be fair to you, the reason why I am asking is
3 that if the Tribunal has evidence that there was a time
4 when a group of people went forwards, they must have
5 come back again and that that might explain the
6 perception of a group of people running southwards over
7 the barricade?
8 A. It might well do.
9 Q. But you have no recollection of it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. I think I should make plain that I am in no
12 way doubting your honesty, sir, or challenging it, but
13 perceptions do change and do differ and I want you to
14 help the Tribunal as best you can: you have candidly
15 said that you saw people throwing missiles, stones and
16 indeed threw some yourself?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Did you see anybody throw anything other than
19 a stone?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It is not always easy to see what people have
22 in their hands, is it?
23 A. No, that is the next question, obviously,
24 how could I tell what somebody was throwing.
25 Q. You will appreciate I have to put to you,
1 putting it at its lowest, that the perception, the
2 belief of some of the soldiers is that people did have
3 other things in their hands than stones?
4 A. Well, I can only say what I saw, others will
5 have to say what they say they saw.
6 Q. We have the photograph in front of us. If we
7 look at the man standing immediately to your left with
8 his arm in a bent position, in some kind of what
9 appears to be a round, circular object in his hand, did
10 you happen to see what that man -- if you were there
11 and if it is you beside him -- what that man had in his
12 hand?
13 A. No. From the photograph it would not be
14 possible because in the part of the photograph, I am
15 head of him.
16 Q. I do appreciate that, and I make the point,
17 if anything you are looking rather away from the man,
18 to the right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You have no personal recollection of this
21 scene at all?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Insofar as it does help, if it does, the
24 photograph speaks for itself, but you did not see
25 anybody carrying, what I hope I am fairly describing as
1 what appears to be a round cylindrical object like
2 that; you saw nothing like that yourself on the day at
3 all?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If that is a fair description of what we see
6 in the photograph?
7 A. Well, I can only take your word that that is
8 what you say that is, I have no idea what it is.
9 Q. The photograph speaks for itself, I will not
10 ask you to comment further. Thank you for bearing with
11 me.
12 Could I now ask you to help the Tribunal
13 about noise: I have already asked you about things
14 that other people may have seen. About noise, and
15 before I ask you that, is it right to say that during
16 some of the time at this barricade there was quite a
17 lot of noise?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There was quite a lot of shouting and there
20 were explosions in the sense that there were rubber
21 bullets being fired and live rounds?
22 A. Well, I could not say there were live rounds,
23 I heard gas canisters being --
24 Q. You believe that you heard gas canisters?
25 A. Yeah, and rubber bullets.
1 Q. Again, this is not a criticism, sir, but you
2 were a young man living in this city at that time
3 before you moved to Dublin where I think you now are?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You would have heard the sort of things that
6 were unhappily going on during the Troubles in this
7 city?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And would have heard rubber bullets, gas
10 canisters, and regrettably, live fire of various kinds?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it your recollection that gas canisters
13 were being fired, or just that there were explosive
14 noises of that kind that may have been gas canisters in
15 the area of the rubble barricade while this minor
16 stoning, on your recollection, was going on?
17 A. Well, there would have been rubber bullets
18 being fired and there was gas in the air.
19 Q. Forgive me being pedantic, when you say you
20 heard gas canisters being fired, is your recollection
21 that there were two different types of noise of that
22 kind, the rubber bullets with which you were familiar
23 and the noise of gas canisters, or some other explosive
24 noise like that?
25 A. Yeah, that kind of sound.
1 Q. Your recollection is quite clear that in
2 addition to rubber bullets there was the explosive
3 noise which you, at the time, believed were gas
4 canisters being fired?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. That is clear?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If it be the case that no gas was fired at
9 that barricade at that time, if that be the case, can
10 you think from your experience of hearing noises what
11 else might have made the explosive noise that did not
12 sound like rubber bullets?
13 A. Well, I -- there is nothing to say there was
14 no gas canisters being fired somewhere else.
15 Q. Sorry, I know it sounds rude, I have to put
16 the case and I did stress "if" and in doing so I am not
17 disputing with you at all. Will you accept from me, if
18 it be the case, I accept your reservation, if it be the
19 case that no gas canisters were fired in the region of
20 this rubble barricade, can you help the Tribunal as to
21 what might have made the noise that sounded like a gas
22 canister being fired, by which you are sure was not a
23 rubber bullet?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Very well, I will not push it.
1 The Tribunal has been given quite a lot of
2 evidence, sir, about a confrontation between two
3 soldiers who were separated and on their own just to
4 the north of the barricade, and you have this
5 photograph still in front of you, in other words off to
6 the left-hand side of this photograph and against the
7 wall by Kells Walk, that there were two soldiers there
8 and that they met with a confrontation with a number of
9 youths.
10 If that happened, did you see any of that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You did not?
13 A. No.
14 Q. The Tribunal has also heard the description
15 by one of the witnesses, one of the civilian witnesses
16 -- I am not going to go beyond civilian evidence --
17 one of the civilian witnesses describing the soldier
18 with the rubber bullet gun as "losing it", in other
19 words being overwhelmed, I think, by that
20 confrontation, despite firing rubber bullets as fast as
21 he could. Indeed that is admitted by the soldier in
22 question.
23 Do you recall such an incident?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Of rubber bullets being fired in really quick
1 succession in the course of a confrontation of that
2 kind?
3 A. No, I recall there were quite a few, but I
4 cannot recall --
5 Q. Where they were coming?
6 A. Rapid fire, quick succession.
7 Q. Very well. The evidence of the soldier, the
8 one occasion I will if I may refer, I know it is
9 contentious, the soldier who was with the man with the
10 rubber bullet gun we know as Soldier P has also
11 admitted that he -- and always has admitted -- that he
12 fired live rounds over the heads of the crowd whom he
13 believed to be confronting him.
14 Do you think it is possible that the missiles
15 that you heard hitting the gable wall which you told my
16 learned friend Mr Clarke about, do you think it is
17 possible that those were indeed live rounds that were
18 being fired because that might accord with that
19 soldier's recollection?
20 A. I did not say that the rubber bullets were
21 hitting the wall, I said I could see them against the
22 wall --
23 Q. I appreciate that, sir, that is why I was
24 asking you whether or not it is possible that in fact
25 among those rubber bullets you would also have heard
1 the live rounds which that soldier admits firing over
2 the heads of the crowd?
3 A. No.
4 Q. No. Did there ever come a time when you were
5 conscious that live rounds were being fired until you
6 actually saw the dreadful injury that had been caused
7 to Mr Kelly?
8 A. Sorry, I did not see any injury, it was only
9 when he was lying on the ground that people were
10 actually saying he had been shot.
11 Q. Your recollection is not of a lot of noise
12 and then suddenly live fire intervening as a different
13 kind of noise?
14 A. No, my recollection is there was a lot of
15 noise and what I took to be rubber bullets and probably
16 different sounds, but I was not standing in a position
17 where I was waiting to differentiate between the sounds
18 that I heard.
19 Q. I do appreciate that. Can you give the
20 Tribunal any idea of the level of noise? Was the level
21 of noise, of the various kinds you have described,
22 really very loud indeed?
23 A. Yeah, well, in a situation like that there
24 were a lot of people shouting, screaming and confusion.
25 Q. One of the reasons I ask you that, I want to
1 ask your recollection about machine-gun fire because
2 the account you have given, and I do not again
3 challenge its honesty, is you have no recollection of
4 hearing machine-gun fire at all?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Again it is right that I should tell you, a
7 number of witnesses have described -- some in writing
8 and some who have given evidence -- indeed one
9 journalist who would have been standing quite close to
10 you, used the word "inconceivable" obviously as a
11 personal perception, he told the Tribunal he found it
12 "inconceivable" that anyone in that area could have
13 missed the noise of machine-gun fire that he heard, but
14 you did not?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Another civilian statement that the Tribunal
17 has seen describes a man coming out from the gap
18 between the two Glenfada Parks, which I think on our
19 understanding must be a description of somewhere close
20 to this barricade and hearing a noise of what he
21 described as a Thompson; you heard no such noise?
22 A. No.
23 Q. May we look just once more at what you have
24 as your Appendix 4, a clearer copy of it, if we may,
25 Mr Nash, at what we call EP23.11, but take my word for
1 it, it is your Appendix 4. We see it on the screen in
2 a slightly clearer form.
3 My learned friend asked you questions about
4 whether you had any recollection of what appears to be
5 going on on the left of the photograph; do you
6 remember?
7 A. No.
8 Q. In that case, may I have control? I think my
9 learned friend Mr Clarke was drawing your attention to
10 that scene over there.
11 A. Sorry, I was looking to the right. I have no
12 recollection of that --
13 Q. And you do not believe you saw that at all?
14 A. I cannot recall that.
15 Q. Did there ever come a stage when you saw
16 anybody lying on the ground in Glenfada Park?
17 A. No, other than Mr Kelly.
18 Q. So sorry, of course, other than Mr Kelly.
19 Did you ever see anybody picking objects up in
20 Glenfada Park at all?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Not at all?
23 A. No.
24 Q. I will not take that further either. Thank
25 you for your patience with me.
1 Questioned by MR CLARKE
2 MR CLARKE: Just two matters: could we have
3 a look, please, at EP2.5? This is a picture that was
4 taken on the day. It shows a Paratrooper catching hold
5 of a youth who appears in the photograph who at some
6 stage, we know from other photographs, was somewhere
7 down here and was taken somewhere up here. This is
8 Glenfada Park North and that is where the barricade
9 was.
10 There are some witnesses who have suggested
11 in their evidence to the Tribunal that there came a
12 time when people at the barricade ran forward, that is
13 to say in a northerly direction away from the barricade
14 in an attempt to rescue or assist the boy who was being
15 ceased by one and eventually more Paratroopers.
16 Do you remember any incident like that, of a
17 boy running out and soldiers chasing him and people
18 attempting to go to his rescue?
19 A. I cannot recall that at the time. I have
20 seen a lot of photographs of it since, but whether
21 I would say that that is what I saw, or that is what
22 I saw afterwards, I could not possibly say.
23 Q. The last question I want to ask you, is this:
24 can we have AN27.16, which is the map attached to your
25 statement? We know from what you have told us and from
1 what others have told us, that people who were at the
2 barricade, some of them, were throwing stones in the
3 direction of the soldiers. Each of the squares in this
4 map is approximately 25 yards square. It looks from
5 the photographs as if when the army vehicles first
6 arrived and stopped in Rossville Street, they stopped
7 somewhere approximately where that arrowhead is and
8 soldiers got out and went either side and at the
9 beginning stages, soldiers may have gone as far as
10 approximately where that red arrow is. I am forgetting
11 for the moment soldiers who came into the
12 Rossville Flats.
13 From the rubble barricade to where the
14 soldiers in and around Rossville Street were appears
15 from the map to be not less than 50 yards away and
16 anything up to 75. When people were throwing stones,
17 were they throwing them from behind the rubble
18 barricade or were they going forward in front of the
19 barricade in order to throw stones at the soldiers and
20 then coming back behind the barricade?
21 A. Sorry, I am not quite sure where -- I know
22 I was behind it, there were other people around it.
23 Q. The point I am getting at, is that if you
24 were to have any attempt to hit a soldier from the
25 barricade, you would have to be a pretty good thrower
1 if you were going to have to throw anything from
2 50 yards and upwards. On those distances, on the
3 assumption that people were throwing from the
4 barricade, either they were throwing stones with no
5 reasonable prospect of them ever hitting anybody, or
6 they must have been going forwards up Rossville Street
7 in order to have some chance of hitting the soldiers
8 who were further up the street; do you see the point
9 I am asking about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall which it was?
12 A. I am not quite sure. I only know I was on
13 the other side, on the Free Derry Corner side.
14 Q. Dealing just with yourself, when you threw
15 stones what were you trying to achieve?
16 A. Just to vent my frustration.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Nash, thank you very much
18 indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry.
19 (Witness withdrew)
20 LORD SAVILLE: Who do we have next?
21 MS McGAHEY: Mr O'Mahoney, sir.
22 MR JIM O'MAHONEY, sworn
23 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
24 LORD SAVILLE: Mr O'Mahoney, if you look to
25 your right you will see who is talking to you. I am
1 the Chairman of the Tribunal. In the main the
2 questions will come from the barristers who sit in
3 front of me. Can you try and remember to keep your
4 face reasonably close to that microphone so that
5 everybody can hear what you have to say.
6 MS McGAHEY: Mr O'Mahoney, do you have with
7 you a copy of the statement you made to this Inquiry
8 and signed on 26th April last year?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I know there is one correction you would like
11 to make to it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you highlight paragraph 4 on the
14 screen, please? Halfway through paragraph 4, you say:
15 "When the march had come down from the
16 Creggan and while I had been standing at the junction
17 of William Street and Chamberlain Street I had been
18 with my friend, Donal Moran."
19 I think your recollection now is in fact you
20 met Mr Moran in Little James Street?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Is he also known as -- apart from that, are
23 the contents of the statement true to the best of your
24 knowledge and belief?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Dealing first of all with Mr Moran, is he
2 also known as Daniel Moran?
3 A. I would know him more as "Dodo", that is his
4 nickname. I would not know him as Daniel.
5 Q. Have you ever been known as Jim Moore?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I tell you why I ask that: we have a
8 statement from a Donal Moran who is also known as
9 Daniel Moran who gives evidence similar to yours, but
10 describes himself as being with Jim Moore rather than
11 Jim O'Mahoney, do you know at all why that may be?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Everybody here has had a chance to read your
14 statement, so I only plan to ask you about parts of it.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. In summary on the first page, you tell us you
17 were with Mr Moran, that you went to the barrier we
18 call barrier 14 in William Street, retreated from that,
19 but then took part in a smaller riot at barrier 12,
20 stone-throwing; is that right?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. The army came through the barriers and you
23 then ran down Rossville Street?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. We pick up your evidence at paragraph 8. You
1 describe the route that you took and then you say that
2 just after you got over the rubble barricade, you heard
3 the sound of an army shot and you were -- is it right
4 you were certain in your own mind that was a rifle shot
5 you were hearing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You thought that it came from the north, but
8 could you tell how close it was to you?
9 A. No, I am sorry, I could not, I could not.
10 Q. If we go over the page and highlight
11 paragraph 9, please, you say that as you turned round
12 to look, you saw a man fall. Then you describe that
13 man as being an older man than you, running with an old
14 man's gait and you tell us he fell forward onto his
15 face.
16 You did not see any wound or any blood. Did
17 you actually have any reason to think he had been shot?
18 A. No, I had no reason at all, I just seen a man
19 fall down.
20 Q. As you continued to run, in those immediate
21 few seconds afterwards, did you see what happened to
22 him?
23 A. Sorry, explain that again, I am not with
24 you?
25 Q. You saw him fall and you continued to run
1 yourself?
2 A. Yes, I ran into Glenfada North, yeah.
3 Q. I know that later you say that you looked
4 back and you saw that man, but at the time, as you were
5 running, did you see what happened to him immediately
6 after he had fallen?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You describe the hat he was wearing as a
9 light-coloured cloth-type hat?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. Can you give any description of the shape of
12 that hat, what sort of hat it was?
13 A. Just an ordinary old cloth peak cap, I would
14 describe it, that is the reason why I said it was an
15 older man, because only older people would have worn
16 those type of hats.
17 Q. If we go on to paragraphs 10 to 12, please,
18 you say that as soon as you saw the man fall, you saw
19 another man behind him, and that man was Jim Wray?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was Jim Wray running?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Southwards down towards Free Derry Corner?
24 A. That is correct, yes.
25 Q. Did you see where he went?
1 A. Well, um, no, honestly, as I come up to the
2 barricade, Jim Wray was coming over the barricade
3 behind me and I went into Glenfada North, so I assumed
4 he went into the same -- most of the people staying at
5 the barricade went into Glenfada.
6 Q. In paragraph 11 you tell us you sheltered in
7 Glenfada Park North. Were you in the courtyard itself?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. You have a vague recollection of seeing a
10 body in Glenfada Park North?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Do you have any further recollection, any
13 more detailed recollection?
14 A. No, I mean I could try, but I mean I just
15 recall a body lying. As I explained in my statement,
16 I was near a -- I think there was a fence nearby -- as
17 far as I can I cannot recall there was much more than
18 just a body. I think I recall the body being carried,
19 taken into a house, but I am not that positive, you
20 know.
21 Q. I would like to show you a photograph to see
22 whether it might jog your memory. Could we have P439
23 on the screen, please? This is a photograph of
24 Glenfada Park taken from the northwest entrance. If
25 I could have control of the screen, please, I will show
1 you the entrance to Glenfada Park North from
2 Rossville Street is over to the left marked on the
3 photograph.
4 Does that scene look at all familiar?
5 A. (Pause) I could not be sure, I could not
6 give you an answer to say yes, that is the scene
7 I remember.
8 Q. Did you spend any time at the gable end of
9 Glenfada Park North, around the corner from the
10 entrance to Rossville Street?
11 A. I spent some time there, coming into
12 Glenfada North, yes, I spent some time there, yes.
13 Q. When you were there did you look into
14 Rossville Street at all?
15 A. Um, yes, I could see towards the barricade,
16 the barricade I could see from there, that is about
17 all, yeah.
18 Q. When you were there at that point, what could
19 you see at the barricade?
20 A. For sure I can say, I can recall for honesty,
21 maybe two bodies and the bodies seemed that close,
22 I mean, you could have felt you could have touched
23 them, you know, that is my recollection at the time,
24 that is all I seen, two bodies, I think now, I am not
25 that positive, but I definitely could see a body, at
1 least one on the barricade, you know.
2 Q. Could you see any soldiers?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If I showed you a photograph of the
5 barricade; would you have any possibility of
6 pinpointing where the bodies were that you saw?
7 A. No, I can look and you can show me anyway,
8 I will try, but ...
9 Q. Could I have P410 on the screen, please?
10 This is an aerial view of the barricade taken by a
11 helicopter on the day. You can see that
12 Rossville Street runs from left to right across the
13 picture. Free Derry Corner would be on the right-hand
14 side off the screen, the Rossville Flats block 1 at the
15 top.
16 Looking at that photograph and thinking of
17 looking from the bottom right-hand corner of the
18 photograph, that shows the curb curving away into the
19 entrance to Glenfada Park?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. You say you think you saw two bodies?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. If we gave you control of the screen, could
24 you say where they were?
25 A. Well, one would have been -- will I just
1 point?
2 Q. Just point --
3 A. Listen, possibly one of the bodies would have
4 round this area here now, but I am not positive now,
5 I cannot be exact (marked with a blue arrow).
6 Q. Is that body the body of the older man you
7 had seen earlier, do you think, or was it a different
8 one?
9 A. It could have been the man with the hat, it
10 could have been, I am not positive, no, I cannot say
11 I am positive.
12 Q. What about the other body?
13 A. I just cannot remember.
14 Q. Could we save that image, please, as AO76.5?
15 Could we return to your statement, please,
16 AO76.2 and highlight paragraphs 12 to 14? You tell us
17 that while you were in Glenfada Park, the shooting
18 intensified.
19 Did you see any soldiers in Glenfada Park
20 itself?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you have any idea of the direction from
23 which these shots were being fired?
24 A. No.
25 Q. At paragraph 13, you say that you and Donal
1 decided to make your way to Glenfada Park South?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. What route did you take between Glenfada Park
4 North and South?
5 A. A sort of a -- there is like a passageway or
6 an alleyway took you straight it from Glenfada North
7 into South.
8 Q. On the Rossville Street side?
9 A. In Glenfada itself.
10 Q. Near the entrance to Rossville Street or on
11 the other side of Glenfada Park?
12 A. It would be near the Rossville Street
13 direction.
14 Q. And you then made your way to what you
15 described as a walkway and a low wall at the southern
16 end of Glenfada Park South?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. I would like to show you a picture of that
19 end: could we have virtual reality, please,
20 hotspot 47? This shows the southern end of
21 Glenfada Park South. It is a modern photograph,
22 obviously the Rossville Flats you would have seen
23 in 1972 are not there. You see facing into
24 Rossville Street a low wall in front of a piece of
25 grass; is that the wall you had in mind?
1 A. Could you repeat that again, sorry --
2 Q. Is that the wall behind which you sheltered?
3 A. No, it would be -- see the yellow marker
4 here, it was that wall there, that gable wall there, we
5 were sheltering.
6 Q. Were you on the Rossville Street side of that
7 wall?
8 A. I do not understand, sorry.
9 Q. You see where the yellow marker is?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you standing near that marker?
12 A. Yes, just near the corner of that wall
13 I would say, yes.
14 Q. From there, from that area, did you look out
15 to see the rubble barricade?
16 A. Yeah, we did at times look round the corner,
17 yeah.
18 Q. You have told us in your statement -- we need
19 not go back to it yet -- that you looked at the rubble
20 barricade and you saw still on the barricade the man in
21 the cloth cap you had seen earlier?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Your recollection is that you saw him through
24 the alleyway leading from Glenfada Park South into
25 Glenfada Park North?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Is that still right?
3 A. Yes, so far as I recall, yes.
4 Q. I would like to use another part of this
5 virtual reality, hotspot 14, please. This photograph
6 is taken from Glenfada Park North looking into
7 Glenfada Park South, so it is the other way from the
8 way you would have been looking. We do not have a
9 photograph that goes from your direction.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. If I move the screen you can see -- had you
12 been at the very bottom of that alleyway, roughly the
13 view one would have looking up the alleyway, that is in
14 Glenfada Park itself. If I stop there. You can see
15 there the wall of the alleyway leading into
16 Rossville Street and you can see a white car parked
17 along Rossville Street, that is roughly the position
18 where the rubble barricade would have been in 1972?
19 LORD SAVILLE: If you can put up the computer
20 panorama, you will probably see it.
21 MS McGAHEY: It is not terribly accurate,
22 sir. Could we have the computer panorama, please?
23 Sir, I was wrong, I was thinking of another
24 hotspot. Does that bring back any recollections of the
25 view that you could see looking through that alleyway?
1 A. It does not help me recall anything more, it
2 just -- I mean, I was around that vicinity, that area,
3 I could see the barricade and I could see maybe two
4 bodies on that barricade. As to what side they were
5 on, I do not know, but I mean it does not help me
6 recollect anything more, you know.
7 Q. From the view you had looking right the way
8 through this alleyway onto that barricade, could you
9 say that the man you saw there was the same man as the
10 one you had seen fall earlier?
11 A. I am not 100 per cent sure, but I am almost
12 positive it was the man, the so-called elderly man
13 I seen falling, I am almost sure it was him, but I am
14 not 100 per cent positive, you know.
15 Q. What was it made you think it was the same
16 man?
17 A. Because I seen the man, as I was coming over
18 the barricade, I seen that man go down. I just assumed
19 it was the man, the man with the hat, maybe it was his
20 hat, I do not recall, but, I did not see that man get
21 -- when I came over the barrier, when he fell on the
22 barricade, I did not see him rise again, so, I think it
23 is natural to assume it was the same man, you know.
24 Q. When you saw him through the alleyway, which
25 way was he facing?
1 A. I have no idea, I am sorry, I do not know.
2 Q. By the time you saw him he was on the south
3 side of the barricade?
4 A. I am saying I am not sure, he could have been
5 on the south side, I seen him fall. When I seen him
6 going down, I was coming down the barricade. He was
7 actually coming over the top of the barricade. He
8 could have went -- he could have fell on the south side
9 or the north, I am not sure, I cannot be positive.
10 I just knew he fell, he went down there. I am
11 definitely positive of that, the man went down with the
12 hat.
13 Q. You tell us that after that you left
14 Glenfada Park South and went on to Lisfannon Park?
15 A. Crossed over, yes, that is right.
16 Q. I would like to show you the statement made
17 in 1972 by Mr Moran on the assumption, it may be wrong,
18 that it was the same Mr Moran who was with you.
19 Could we have AM421.5 on the screen, please,
20 and could you highlight the second half of that,
21 please?
22 In 1972, Mr Moran recorded that he had seen
23 bodies on the rubble barricade:
24 "The body in the middle appeared to be
25 moving. Any attempt to reach these people did not
1 work" ... realised that gunfire was coming from the
2 walls, decided to move away:
3 "I then started to give first aid to
4 casualties."
5 Do you have any recollection of assisting in
6 giving first aid to casualties?
7 A. No.
8 Q. If we go back one page, AM421.4 and
9 paragraph 22, please, Mr Moran says:
10 "Jim and I had intended to go to
11 Blucher Street, but for some reason we only made it to
12 Lisfannon Park. The Knights of Malta were using the
13 Coyle's house in Lisfannon Park as a first aid post.
14 There were injured people in the house although nobody
15 was seriously injured. They mainly had cuts and
16 bruises. I remember that people in the house were
17 saying that the wounded should be taken to Letterkenny
18 Hospital and not Altnagelvin Hospital. It was
19 generally thought that if the wounded were taken to
20 Altnagelvin hospital, they would be arrested for
21 rioting."
22 Do you remember going into the Coyle's house
23 at Lisfannon Park?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know the Coyle's house?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you remember being in a house where there
3 were injured people?
4 A. No, I do not, no. No, sorry.
5 Q. Thank you very much, those are all the
6 questions I have.
7 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
8 LORD GIFFORD: My name is Anthony Gifford and
9 I represent the family of Jim Wray. I want to ask you
10 about when you crossed the rubble barricade, you say
11 Jim Wray was just behind you and you then took shelter
12 in Glenfada Park North?
13 A. That is correct, yes.
14 Q. Would you please look at a photograph of
15 Glenfada Park North, EP21.2? You see the courtyard of
16 Glenfada Park North in that photograph?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You see where the rubble barricade is?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where were you sheltering as far as you can
21 remember?
22 A. Can you point here?
23 Q. Yes, you can, you may be given control.
24 A. Sorry, when we first went into Glenfada
25 North, I mean we were actually running about a bit
1 confused, it could have been round the courtyard, plus
2 it basically -- it could have been a couple of places.
3 We had been here possibly and then over here
4 (indicating), I mean we were actually running about a
5 lot that day. I mean I could not pinpoint the exact
6 place because we were very confused, we were running
7 around that courtyard. I could have been a number of
8 places, I could not say I was at this place or that
9 place exactly.
10 Q. You were not in any garden or anything like
11 that?
12 A. No, I was in no garden, no.
13 Q. Just you were sheltering behind walls?
14 A. Yeah, that is correct, yeah.
15 Q. How long did you stay in there?
16 A. I do not know, could have been five minutes,
17 ten minutes, I could not put a time on it, you know.
18 Q. You did not see any soldiers come into
19 Glenfada Park?
20 A. No, I did not, no.
21 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
22 MR CLARKE: Mr O'Mahoney, just a few
23 questions. My name is Clarke and I appear on behalf of
24 a number of soldiers.
25 How long had you known Daniel Moran; had he
1 been a childhood friend?
2 A. No, I had known him since I worked with him,
3 maybe 30 years.
4 Q. Forgive me, in January 1972?
5 A. Sorry, I would have known him about three
6 years.
7 Q. Had you been school friends or?
8 A. No, just met him through work.
9 Q. And socialised quite a lot with him?
10 A. Yes, we went to football matches on weekends,
11 yes.
12 Q. Your recollection that you helped Ms McGahey
13 with when you began your evidence was that actually you
14 met up with him near Little James Street?
15 A. That is correct, yes.
16 Q. Do you remember who you had been on the
17 majority of the march with?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was that?
20 A. A friend of mine called Tony -- Anthony
21 McIntyre.
22 Q. When you met up with Daniel was he on his own
23 or was he still with his companions?
24 A. I recall him just on his own.
25 Q. Do you remember whether he told you whether
1 he was carrying anything?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You do not remember at all, or he did not
4 mention anything?
5 A. Did not mention anything.
6 Q. The only reason, sir, it is just in case you
7 can help. Of course he can speak for himself, and no
8 doubt he will, but could we have a look at AM421.1,
9 highlighting paragraphs 1 to 5. You see, he says he
10 was 24 at the time of the march, angry because of
11 Magilligan, paragraph 3, knew there would be soldiers
12 stationed along the route:
13 "... and I thought there was likely to be
14 trouble. I went to the march with a small snooker coup
15 hidden under my coat. My friends had also brought
16 clubs which they would conceal under their coats. We
17 would conceal the clubs under our coats because if the
18 clubs had been seen by the other people on the march,
19 we would have been lynched."
20 Sir, I am only putting it to you in case you
21 can assist us with the fears of some of your friends,
22 that they needed to have some form of weapon; is that
23 complete news to you?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. You had --
1 A. No idea.
2 Q. -- no idea whatsoever?
3 A. That is correct, yes.
4 Q. Do you remember by the time you met Donal,
5 looking at paragraph 5 near the bottom:
6 "I was with Danny [I think that is his
7 brother] and Michael McDaid [brothers] on the march.
8 Mickey worked as a barman in the Celtic bar"; did you
9 know Mickey McDaid?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You did not?
12 A. No.
13 Q. At all?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Or Danny?
16 A. Danny McDaid, his brother, yeah, I might have
17 known, not very well, but I probably would have known
18 him, yeah.
19 Q. By the time you met up with Donal Moran, was
20 he no longer with Mickey McDaid?
21 A. My recollection, I just met Donal on his own,
22 that is my recollection. Michael could have been
23 there, because I did not know him I would not have been
24 aware he was with Donal, so I mean Michael McDaid could
25 have been with Donal but I would not know him because
1 I did not know Michael McDaid.
2 Q. I will slow you down a little because there
3 are burning fingers behind you.
4 A. I am saying because I did not know Michael
5 McDaid, Michael McDaid could have been there with
6 Donal, but I would not have known him.
7 Q. Had you been on marches before?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. We all know -- and there has been an enormous
10 amount of evidence about stone-throwing, of course --
11 but were you aware of weapons being carried at any
12 stage on any march ever?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Secondly, and shortly, sir: when you were
15 running down towards the rubble barricade, your
16 distinct recollection is that the first shot casualty
17 that you were aware of falls beside you as you are
18 running down towards Free Derry Corner and you have not
19 reached the rubble barricade yet; is that fair?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Tell us --
22 A. My first -- I cannot recall, I remember
23 reaching the barricade, the shooting could have started
24 then. I remember going over, getting to the top of the
25 barricade and on my way down, I seen a person fall,
1 that is the best I can say.
2 Q. Thank you, my fault. So you are just coming
3 down the Free Derry Corner side of the rubble
4 barricade?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. When it happens?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. It may only be an impression, but did you
9 feel that you were one of the last people over the
10 barricade or were there a number of people behind you?
11 A. There could have been more behind me, I just
12 do not recall.
13 Q. No idea?
14 A. Probably was a lot more behind me, I just
15 cannot recall now seriously.
16 Q. No question of people turning round and
17 confronting the army for several minutes before the
18 first shot?
19 A. I do not recollect that, I do not recall
20 that.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN
23 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Mr O'Mahoney, just one or
24 two questions. My name is Allan Green and I represent
25 a number of the former soldiers.
1 As far as your view north towards
2 William Street was concerned, once you had passed the
3 rubble barricade, that appears to have been very
4 restricted, is that right?
5 A. I do not understand what you are saying.
6 Q. You did not see much of what was happening to
7 the north of the rubble barricade?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Once you had passed it yourself?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. We have heard from the last witness Mr Nash,
12 and indeed from others, that there was a certain amount
13 of stone-throwing from the barricade towards the
14 soldiers; did you see any of that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did not see any stones thrown at all?
17 A. At the barricade?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. No.
20 Q. The only other thing: you mentioned that
21 people would go if they were wounded, might be advised
22 to go to Letterkenny rather than Altnagelvin for
23 obvious reasons, because if they went to Altnagelvin
24 they might be questioned about rioting?
25 A. Right, go on.
1 Q. Did they go anywhere else apart from
2 Letterkenny?
3 A. I am not aware, I do not know.
4 MR TOOHEY: I do not think Mr O'Mahoney had
5 said that, had he? I thought that was something put to
6 Mr O'Mahoney in the statement of another witness?
7 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Yes. I am sorry, sir.
8 MR TOOHEY: It does not matter now, but
9 I rather thought you put it to Mr O'Mahoney as if he
10 had heard such a remark made or been present at such a
11 conversation?
12 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Yes.
13 MR TOOHEY: Yes, what?
14 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Sorry, sir, I did not
15 follow.
16 LORD SAVILLE: It was not something that this
17 witness said.
18 SIR ALLAN GREEN: It was something put to
19 him. Sir, I apologise, I am grateful.
20 MS McGAHEY: I have no further questions,
21 thank you, sir.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr O'Mahoney, thank you very
23 much for coming here to assist the Inquiry, thank you.
24 MR ROBERT WHITE, affirmed
25 Questioned by MR CLARKE
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mr White, the Chairman
2 speaking to you. You have probably heard me say this
3 to other witnesses: just remember to keep your face
4 fairly close to the microphone, thank you very much.
5 MR CLARKE: Mr White, do you have with you
6 your statement to this Tribunal which you signed on
7 1st June 1999?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I understand there are a few minor
10 corrections or additions that you would like to make to
11 the statement. In paragraph 2 you describe the
12 atmosphere on Bloody Sunday and the paragraph ends with
13 the words:
14 "There was no tension in the air and the
15 crowd of marchers were all in high spirits."
16 I believe you would like to add the words
17 "that does not mean they were not worried or
18 apprehensive"?
19 A. Yes, that is right.
20 Q. In paragraph 4 you deal with the missing
21 photographs. You describe, amongst others, number 9 as
22 being missing and number 22 as being missing, though
23 I believe you still have the negatives of those
24 photographs?
25 A. Yes, number 9 was a mistake. Number 9,
1 I have the negatives and the photograph.
2 Q. And number 22 as well?
3 A. I discovered the photograph lately there.
4 Q. In paragraph 24 at the top of page 11.5, you
5 describe a soldier taking cover against the gable end
6 of block 1. As written your statement reads:
7 "And I could only see his head and shoulders
8 as he looked around the corner"; that is wrong. What
9 you intend to say is that the soldier was standing
10 fully exposed at the corner; is that right?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. And you wish also to add that Mr McAteer came
13 down before you did; is that right?
14 A. I honestly do not know, but I think he did.
15 Q. If we come to paragraph 31, you describe
16 events towards the end of the afternoon when you were
17 walking up the Bog Road and shooting had died down and
18 was not as heavy as it had been before. The words that
19 follow in your statement are:
20 "I honestly cannot say if there was more
21 shooting ...", and I think your present recollection is
22 that there was more shooting; is that right?
23 A. Yes, there definitely was more shooting.
24 Q. Subject to those qualifications, are the
25 contents of this statement true to the best of your
1 knowledge and belief?
2 A. It is, yes.
3 Q. We have all had the opportunity to read it
4 and to look at the very helpful photographs that are
5 attached to it. Therefore what I am going to do is to
6 ask you a number of particular questions in relation
7 only to parts of the statement.
8 Could we have a look at paragraph 5? You
9 describe in that paragraph the photographs that you
10 took and the sequence in which you took them. You
11 describe in the previous paragraph that these were all
12 taken with a Pentax SLR load, as we can see, with a
13 black and white film. I think you still have the very
14 Pentax with which you took the photographs; you have it
15 with you today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You describe, about halfway down this
18 paragraph, photograph 8 as having been taken as the
19 march was on Westland Street and just about to come on
20 to Laburnum Terrace and you say the lorry leading the
21 march is clearly visible, and it can be seen that two
22 of the young men on the lorry are making what you
23 decorously describe --
24 A. I did not say that, somebody made a mistake
25 there.
1 Q. I had never heard that expression before:
2 "Two of the young men on the lorry are
3 making 'V' signs to somebody to their right ... they
4 must have seen soldiers and it is the soldiers that
5 they are gesturing to."
6 If we look at that photograph which we can
7 find at AW11.11, and perhaps we could turn it round and
8 lighten it a little, we can see the young men on the
9 lorry you are referring to and this is coming up, as
10 you say, Westland Street which then turns into
11 Lone Moor Road, does it not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I wonder whether you can possibly be right
14 that the people we see here are gesturing at soldiers.
15 I do not think that -- correct me if I am wrong --
16 there is likely to have been any soldiers in Lone Moor
17 Road they could have been gesturing at?
18 A. I would imagine it was over towards the
19 cathedral.
20 Q. Over towards St Eugene's cathedral?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we go to the next photograph which is
23 AW11.2, in sequence, that is your photograph 10. So we
24 have not got attached to your statement photograph 9,
25 although, as you have just told us you have a negative
1 of that?
2 A. Number 9 would be another photograph at the
3 top of Westland Street, the same photograph, only there
4 were no "V" signs in this one.
5 Q. Can we then come to AW11.2, paragraphs 7
6 to 9? You describe in paragraph 7 how, as the march
7 moved down William Street, you believe that you saw
8 more soldiers inside an old building on the north side
9 of William Street called Stevenson's bakery, in the
10 area which has been circled on the map that is
11 attached.
12 If we look at AW11.31, which is your map, the
13 area that you have circled we can see lies just below
14 Great James Street. Did you mean to circle that
15 position? Here is the march coming down
16 William Street; is Stevenson's bakery not approximately
17 there?
18 A. I do not honestly know about that one because
19 I have very little recollection of that particular
20 area, coming down that area.
21 Q. You recollect seeing soldiers as you marched
22 down William Street?
23 A. I think I did, yes.
24 Q. In the building on the north side?
25 A. Somewhere along there.
1 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 9 to 11 on
2 AW11.2: you are describing here what happened when you
3 got to a point just short of what we are calling
4 barrier 14, and you describe in paragraph 9 how the
5 people in the crowd close to the barrier were throwing
6 stones and placards at the soldiers and how after this
7 had gone on for a short time, the army responded with
8 rubber bullets and CS gas, which was nothing out of the
9 ordinary.
10 Did you actually see any soldier discharge
11 CS gas, or were you simply aware of it floating in the
12 air?
13 A. You would be very aware of CS gas.
14 Q. Yes, quite. Is your recollection simply that
15 there was CS gas there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You describe, and your photographs show, the
18 use of a water cannon. You describe how photographs 16
19 and 17 show the use of the water cannon and you say in
20 the last sentence but one of paragraph 10, that you
21 remember that television crew were deliberately
22 targeted by the water cannon and you say that we can
23 see them in photograph 16.
24 If we look at photograph 16, it is at
25 AW11.16. If you turn that round and lighten it up,
1 I am not sure that I can see the television crew in
2 that photograph, can you see them?
3 A. That is where they were.
4 Q. That is where they were?
5 A. That looks like one there, it looks like a
6 television camera of some sort.
7 Q. Perhaps if we could give you control of the
8 screen, you could point out what you are referring to?
9 A. No, over a bit to the right here (marked with
10 a blue arrow) around there somewhere, over to the right
11 of that arrow.
12 Q. Somewhere over to the left of the photograph?
13 A. To the right of the arrow.
14 Q. To the right of the arrow, but to the left of
15 the photograph you think there was a camera crew?
16 A. Camera crew, not one, but there were several
17 camera crews lined along that side.
18 Q. But when you say you think the television
19 crew were deliberately targeted by the water cannon, is
20 that based on anything else other than it started to
21 spew out water to the left-hand side of this
22 photograph?
23 A. No, that is how it appeared to me just.
24 Q. Sorry?
25 A. That is how it appeared to me.
1 Q. There are a number of photographs which, as
2 we can see, pretty substantially cleared the street of
3 people, as a result of which, together with the CS gas,
4 you walked back west up William Street.
5 Were you aware of whether the water cannon
6 was used more than once?
7 A. No, I would not know.
8 Q. You retired when it was first used, did you?
9 A. No, I was well back -- I was not well back,
10 but I was back from it, I was out of range of it.
11 Q. Sorry?
12 A. I was out of range of the water cannon, but
13 I do not remember if it was used once or twice or
14 whatever, they probably used it until they emptied.
15 Q. If we look at AW11.20, this is the
16 penultimate photograph in the series showing the use of
17 the water cannon?
18 A. That would not be water, that would be CS
19 gas.
20 Q. If we look at AW19, that is your last
21 photograph we have showing the use of water cannon. At
22 AW11.20 we can see, as you have just pointed out,
23 people fleeing when there is gas around. At that
24 stage, as I understand it, you then made your way west
25 up William Street to the junction; is that right?
1 A. Yes, that is correct. Could I point out that
2 I think there is three camera crews there in that
3 area. That is where they were all standing, on the
4 left-hand side there.
5 Q. The next photograph we have is at AW11.21;
6 that is photograph 24. You tell us that photograph 23
7 was one of the photographs that you were asked to
8 destroy because it showed people rioting.
9 Do you recall what photograph 22 was?
10 A. I have 22.
11 Q. Do you have it there?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. What is it a photograph of?
14 A. It is a photograph of William Street.
15 Can I --
16 Q. May I have a look and see what it is?
17 (Shown) I see, it is a photograph of people in
18 William Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What negatives do you still have, may I ask?
21 A. I have most. Number 14 and 15, 19 and 23 are
22 missing.
23 Q. You have all the other negatives?
24 A. I have all the others. The Saville Tribunal
25 had all the negatives several times.
1 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraph 17 on
2 AW11.3, paragraphs 17 and 18? You describe here being
3 at a point just south of the junction between
4 William Street and Rossville Street and hearing the
5 sound of army Saracens revving their engines, and
6 deciding to take cover and running into a gap from
7 which you took the photographs which are attached to
8 your statement, and which show the approach of the
9 first two Saracens down Rossville Street.
10 You express the view that you probably took
11 those photographs from a point that you have marked on
12 your map as E2. If we look at E2 at AW11.31, the place
13 that you have marked is just below Kells Walk. I am
14 going to suggest to you that you may be slightly wrong
15 about where these photographs were taken from --
16 A. Well, I said at the time it could possibly be
17 at E or E2. In fact one may have been taken at E and
18 the other at E2.
19 Q. I am going to suggest to you that they may
20 actually have been taken somewhere else because what
21 I am going to suggest is that at least three of them
22 were taken here. Let me tell you why I suggest that.
23 Could we have a look, please, at AW11.24?
24 This is your photograph which shows the second of the
25 Pigs coming down Rossville Street. We can see some
1 brickwork in the immediate left of the photograph. The
2 next photograph in the sequence is at AW11.25. We can
3 see the same brickwork, which is on the left-hand
4 side. If we look at AW11.26, we can see the third
5 photograph in this series. We can see it with the same
6 brickwork, but also with these two bollards there
7 (indicating), and we can see that here is the run of
8 the Chamberlain Street houses.
9 Keeping, if we may, those bollards in our
10 mind, could we have on the screen the virtual reality
11 hotspot 10. What I suggest we have just seen on the
12 photograph are those very bollards which we can now see
13 on hotspot 10 which stands at the gap between
14 Columbcille Court and Glenfada Park North. If we look
15 at this image on the screen, we can see a walkway on
16 the left and a descending wall on the right. If we go
17 back to your map at AW11.31, I think we will find that
18 the walkway on the left is what I am pointing out to
19 you there and the descending ramp on the right is
20 there, and that these bollards which appear in your
21 photograph are almost exactly there.
22 Does that seem moderately convincing?
23 A. Yes, it does, yes. The very first photograph
24 of the Saracens coming in, could we have it up on the
25 screen again?
1 Q. Just so. But I think, using those bollards
2 as a marker, in fact the angle of the photographs fits
3 in with them having been taken from exactly where those
4 bollards are.
5 May we then come, please, to paragraphs 19
6 to 20 on AW11.14? You describe in paragraph 19 having
7 taken the photographs of the two army Saracens coming
8 in, you decided to get close to the rubble barricade
9 and you ran into Glenfada Park North and saw the pram
10 ramps on the north end of Glenfada Park South and went
11 halfway up the pram ramp as a good vantage point for
12 you to take photographs from.
13 If we look at your map at AW11.31, you have
14 marked, helpfully, the position that you took as being
15 at point "F". If you had taken the previous
16 photographs in the gap between Glenfada Park North and
17 Columbcille Court, it would be likely, would it not,
18 that you simply ran through Glenfada Park North and
19 ended up at point "F"?
20 A. Yes, that is correct, but I believe the first
21 photograph of the Saracens coming in, I took it from a
22 different point. You might be correct about the last
23 three, but I believe the first one was taken from a
24 different point.
25 Q. Yes, you may well be right. If we could go
1 back to AW11.4 at paragraphs 19 to 21, you describe in
2 the last two sentences of paragraph 19 how, as you came
3 past the gable end of Glenfada Park North, you could
4 see a small crowd of men standing to the south of the
5 barricade that had been built across Rossville Street,
6 although you only gave them a quick glance before
7 heading towards the pram ramp.
8 If we could have on the screen EP27.6: this
9 is a photograph that was taken by another photographer
10 on the day. In fact from the pram ramp on to which you
11 went. Do you remember there being another photographer
12 there at the time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Whether there was or was not --
15 A. I would say that was taken before I reached
16 there.
17 Q. So when you reached there, do you recollect
18 there being that sort of number of people around, or
19 less?
20 A. No, there would be less.
21 Q. Less, thank you. If we go back to AW11.14,
22 you describe in paragraph 20, if we can have that
23 and 21, the fact that there were about six or seven
24 other people around and one of those who was standing
25 next to you on the ramp was called McAteer.
1 Do you remember what his first name was?
2 A. I think it was Hugh. I did not know him at
3 the time, I just know him by McAteer, but I found out
4 later it was Hugh.
5 Q. You describe taking photographs of two or
6 three bodies on the ground just south of the rubble
7 barricade who, at the time, you thought had been hit by
8 rubber bullets and did not imagine for a moment that
9 there were people who had been shot by live fire; is
10 that right?
11 A. It was just instinctive rather than
12 deliberate. I took the photograph -- this is something
13 happening there, I just took the photograph.
14 Q. The photographs you took are at AW11.27,
15 which we have seen. We know that the man who is lying
16 on the ground where my arrow is pointing is
17 Michael Kelly who was shot. Had you seen him before
18 you saw him on the ground?
19 A. No.
20 Q. We know that there are two people on the
21 left-hand side who are also on the ground. You took
22 this photograph and then you took the next one, if we
23 look at it, AW11.28.
24 Do you recollect now what was going on or
25 what was happening to the people on the left-hand side
1 of the photograph?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know whether they moved, whether they
4 got up?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You do not know?
7 A. No.
8 Q. If we go back to paragraph 22 to 24 on
9 AW11.4, you describe how, as you put it, just at that
10 moment when you had taken the second of the photographs
11 we have looked at, you became aware of a young man
12 running south on the pavement to the west of block 1
13 and saw the now well-known photograph of yours,
14 AW11.29, of what we now know to be Hugh Gilmore running
15 towards the entrance to block 1.
16 Can you give us an idea of the time that had
17 elapsed between your taking the photograph previous to
18 this one, the second photograph of people, including
19 Michael Kelly, and this photograph of Hugh Gilmore on
20 the other side of the road?
21 A. It would have been a very short time now,
22 I could not say how long.
23 Q. When you say "a short time", are we talking
24 about 10 or 20 seconds, something like that?
25 A. Or a minute even, something like that, even
1 less, I do not know, I honestly do not know.
2 Q. You then describe, if we can go to AW11.4,
3 how, in paragraph 24, immediately after you had taken
4 this photograph you looked back north to look for the
5 soldier who had fired, as you thought, a rubber bullet
6 at the man we now know to be Hugh Gilmore and saw a
7 soldier standing just behind the north gable end of
8 block 1.
9 I assume, correct me if I am wrong, you mean
10 literally immediately, do you?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. You describe how he was taking cover but, as
13 you have corrected in your statement this morning, you
14 saw the whole of him as he looked around the corner; is
15 that right?
16 A. No, he was standing with (inaudible) like his
17 shoulder to the corner.
18 Q. It is not a question of him coming round or
19 peering round, he was standing?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You describe how you and Mr McAteer dropped
22 down below the wall that you were on and you describe
23 how, as soon as you had done that, you heard the whine
24 of a bullet as it passed straight above you.
25 Are you able to say the direction in which
1 the bullet was going other than simply passed you?
2 A. Well, I saw the soldier, he had the gun -- he
3 was standing, he had the gun pointed down and he
4 brought it up and it seemed an eternity to come up, but
5 I knew it was coming towards me, and I got down right
6 away.
7 Q. Did you hear the strike of a bullet anywhere?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Then you describe in your statement how you
10 made your way in the end slowly off the ramp down to
11 the bottom of it. You describe in paragraph 26 how,
12 when you reached the bottom, there was a little clear
13 area of ground and five or six people were crouching
14 down out of sight of the soldiers and it was from there
15 that you took the photograph that appears as AW11.30,
16 if we can remind ourselves of that. You took a
17 photograph of the people on the other side of the
18 street, including some of those who were tending to
19 Hugh Gilmore.
20 If we look at your map at AW11.31, is it
21 possible to identify where exactly you took that
22 photograph from. Here is the pram ramp down which you
23 had now come.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us where you took the photograph
1 --
2 A. At the bottom of the pram ramp, there was a
3 space.
4 Q. Do you mean the space which is simply part of
5 the pavement?
6 A. No, it would be back, it would be back from
7 the pavement. There was the wall of a pram ramp --
8 Q. Do you mean in there, as it were?
9 A. Yes, in closer.
10 Q. At the junction between the pram ramp and the
11 northeast side of Glenfada Park South, where my arrow
12 shows?
13 A. On back, yes, on back.
14 Q. Subsequently you describe how, when you were
15 crouching there, somebody said "watch yourself, they
16 are shooting from the walls"; is that right?
17 A. Yes, after I had taken the photograph,
18 somebody said "watch yourself, they are shooting from
19 the walls".
20 Q. Apart from the fact somebody said that, were
21 you conscious in any way of shooting that might be
22 coming from the walls?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You then describe how you went into
25 Glenfada Park South?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And eventually got to the Old Bog Road?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And walked up that. Thank you very much.
5 One minor matter: could I look at AW11.6,
6 paragraph 38? You say that four of your photographs
7 were used by the Widgery Tribunal and they are in the
8 EP32 series. Do you know why only four of your
9 photographs were used?
10 A. At the time they were looking for evidence
11 and I took my photographs to Michael Canavan of the
12 SDLP, he was collecting the evidence at the time, and
13 all they were interested in was those four
14 photographs. Now I was never called to give evidence
15 nor never made a statement.
16 MR CLARKE: Thank you.
17 Questioned by MR MACDONALD
18 MR MACDONALD: Mr White, over here.
19 Mr White, my name is MacDonald, and I represent the
20 family of Michael Kelly.
21 Could I ask you to refer first of all to
22 paragraphs 16 and 17 of your statement at AW11.3? You
23 refer there to taking your photograph number 25 from
24 point "D" on the map; do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Then the next paragraph, 17, you moved to a
2 different position, point "E" and took more
3 photographs?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. We know it is not actually at point "E" you
6 took those photographs, it was perhaps another point at
7 Glenfada Park North. The photographs you then took
8 were additional to the photographs you had previously
9 taken?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The first photograph you refer to is
12 photograph 25 as the photograph of what you believe to
13 be the first Saracen. Can we take it that is a
14 misprint and you are referring to photograph 26?
15 A. 25.
16 Q. I say that because you took photograph 25
17 from point "D"?
18 A. Or thereabouts. Could I have the first
19 photograph you are talking about on?
20 Q. Yes, photograph 26 appears to be at AW11.23?
21 A. Yes, that would be the first Saracen, yes.
22 Q. That is the first photograph you took and
23 that shows the first Saracen?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then you took a series of photographs:
1 27, 28 and 29. They were all taken in fairly quick
2 succession?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I take it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In fact if you look at each of those
7 photographs in turn, that is AW11.24; can you see the
8 Guildhall clock?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It is not very clear on that copy on your
11 screen, but do you know that that shows --
12 A. Ten past four.
13 Q. The time to be ten past four?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then on AW11.25, there is the clock showing
16 the same time?
17 A. I think so, yes.
18 Q. And AW11.26, the hand does not seem to have
19 moved there at all?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So those photographs were probably shot
22 literally within a matter of a few seconds?
23 A. It would be, yes.
24 Q. If I could ask you to look at paragraph 19 of
25 your statement, that is AW11.4: you appear to have ran
1 from the position where you took those photographs into
2 Glenfada Park North and up to the pram ramp where you
3 took the further photographs?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That seemed to be a distance of about perhaps
6 60 yards or thereabouts, would that be right?
7 A. Would it be that far?
8 Q. If that.
9 A. Would it be that far? I do not think it
10 would be.
11 Q. Do you remember how long it took you to get
12 from --
13 A. No, not very long because I remember I ran.
14 It was not because I was scared or anything like that,
15 it was because I was afraid of missing something.
16 Q. Exactly, so can we take it, again, it is a
17 matter of seconds that would have elapsed between
18 taking the last photograph I showed you, photograph 29,
19 and the next photograph that you took from the pram
20 ramp?
21 A. It would be longer because I remember
22 standing on the pram ramp before I took any photographs
23 at all.
24 Q. Do you remember how long you stood there for?
25 A. No, because I remember talking to somebody
1 about it because there was shooting and it was obvious
2 there was different kinds of fire. There was the dull
3 thud of rubber bullets or CS gas guns and then there
4 was the sharper sound of rifle fire, and I remember
5 saying to somebody at the time, just standing there,
6 "this must be a new tactic firing in the air with live
7 rounds and rubber bullets to scare people".
8 Q. It took you a very short time indeed to run
9 from the position where you took photograph 29 to the
10 position where you took photograph 30?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But some time elapsed between arriving at
13 that pram ramp when you took photograph 30; can you put
14 any time on that?
15 A. I would say a couple of minutes at least.
16 Q. A couple of minutes at least?
17 A. I think anyway, from the 29 to 30.
18 Q. So, while you were standing there, were you
19 watching proceedings?
20 A. Um --
21 Q. At the rubble barricade?
22 A. I must have been. No, I would not be
23 standing that long. I would not be standing, it would
24 be a matter of maybe 10 seconds or something like that,
25 I would imagine like, you know, to make that comment
1 and then take that photograph.
2 Q. That is what I was wondering, if you were
3 there. If you were running in order to get into that
4 position in order not to miss anything with your
5 camera, it would seem logical you would be taking
6 photographs almost immediately after you arrived at the
7 pram ramp?
8 A. The problem was I went to that pram ramp to
9 take photographs. I took riot photographs before and
10 I always tried to get people with their backs to the
11 photograph so I would not take any faces. But in this
12 case, as you can see from the photographs, there was no
13 rioting, everybody was running, although people had
14 stones in their hands, they were not rioting, they were
15 on their own, the rioting was over.
16 Q. What is your best estimate of how long you
17 were standing there watching proceedings without taking
18 any photographs?
19 A. It would be seconds, I think.
20 Q. Seconds?
21 A. Less than a minute anyway.
22 Q. During those periods of seconds, did you see
23 anyone at the rubble barricade throwing nail bombs?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you see anyone at the rubble barricade
1 with a rifle or a pistol?
2 A. No.
3 Q. After that period of seconds you took
4 photograph number 30?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Which is at AW11.27; that is the photograph
7 that shows Mr Kelly on the ground?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You refer to perhaps two or three bodies
10 being on the ground and you can see people there on the
11 ground. Could it be that the people, apart from
12 Mr Kelly, that you saw on the ground were simply lying
13 on the ground?
14 A. It is possible because, as I had said before,
15 it was more instinctive than deliberate. I saw there
16 was something happened there, take a photograph, just
17 as simple as that.
18 Q. We see people kneeling on the ground,
19 apparently taking cover. Could it be that other people
20 were lying on the ground and taking cover?
21 A. I do not honestly know.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
24 MR GLASGOW: Could we have AW11.27 back while
25 your mind is on it, please? While that comes up, my
1 name is Glasgow and I represent many of the soldiers.
2 While it is fresh in your mind and ours, may I ask you
3 about that because the perfectly proper suggestion has
4 been put to you that the other people lying there may
5 just be taking cover and lying on the ground.
6 When you looked at that scene, the one that
7 you photographed, did you see anybody either get up and
8 walk away or being taken away from that scene?
9 A. No.
10 Q. No?
11 A. No, I took the photograph and that is it as
12 far, as I was concerned.
13 Q. Perhaps you have a slightly fuller picture
14 than was perhaps put to you, Mr Roberts has given a
15 statement; do you know a George Roberts?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You do. He has, if I may have control of the
18 screen, please, identified himself as this gentleman
19 here; does that accord with your --
20 A. I do not think it would have been the
21 George Roberts I know.
22 Q. Can I tell you, so that you can hear the
23 other side of the story. He says, that George
24 Roberts -- if anybody wants it, his reference is
25 AR13 -- he says he was leaning over that body and that
1 it was a man in an aran sweater with blood gushing out
2 of a wound under his eye. You know nothing of that at
3 all?
4 A. No, no, I did not see any blood at all.
5 Q. If that gentleman is -- sorry, I think
6 I interrupted you?
7 A. I only discovered the next day what I had
8 taken, I did not realise at the time what I was taking.
9 Q. If what I have just put to you as a quotation
10 from that gentleman's statement is right and that this
11 is obviously a seriously wounded man in an aran
12 sweater; you saw nothing of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know anybody else in the photograph we
15 are looking at?
16 A. I know this man here.
17 Q. Perhaps if you can be given control of the
18 screen, you could point out?
19 A. I know this man (indicating).
20 Q. His name?
21 A. Danny Craig.
22 Q. Did you see him doing anything at all?
23 A. No, I did not even know -- I knew him,
24 I worked with him, and I did not know I had taken his
25 photograph.
1 Q. Anybody else in the photograph you recognise?
2 A. No.
3 Q. May I have control again, please? You do not
4 by any chance know that gentleman?
5 A. No, I am told -- I believe that is
6 Don Mullan. It was Don Mullan himself told me it was
7 him.
8 Q. Doubtless, as I am sure we will accept his
9 word for that, the gentleman therefore bending behind
10 Michael Kelly as we see on the photograph and looking
11 in the direction, peering in the direction of whatever
12 it is to the left of the photograph you believe to be
13 Don Mullan?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That is only because of what he told you or
16 did you recognise him at the time?
17 A. I did not know him. I only met him about a
18 year ago, two years ago.
19 Q. In the light of those questions I have just
20 put to you and referred you to the statement, can you
21 help the Tribunal at all as to whether, from what you
22 saw or indeed from what you have been told, any of the
23 people lying on the ground were actually taking cover,
24 as has been suggested to you?
25 A. I do not honestly know.
1 Q. You just do not know?
2 A. I do not know.
3 Q. Very well, back to your evidence, then.
4 Could we go to the beginning of your
5 statement, please, sir, AW11.1? Paragraphs 1 and 2,
6 you very helpfully corrected the misunderstanding over
7 the slight apprehension and worry there was amongst
8 those going on the march, as you have said?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In fairness to you, you had already said in
11 your own paragraph 1 that there was always an element
12 of danger on these kind of marches and you yourself
13 were apprehensive?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It may seem silly, but would you tell the
16 Tribunal in your own words what it was, what was the
17 sort of danger you were apprehensive about personally
18 and the reason why you would not take other people with
19 you?
20 A. Well, I took -- I went out and took
21 photographs for my own enjoyment of riots. I had taken
22 riots photographs before and I went on my own because
23 there was an element of danger.
24 Q. In a nutshell is it that riots were normally
25 associated with marches?
1 A. No, no, no.
2 Q. Why do you mention riots then if you were
3 saying the danger you were apprehended on a civil
4 rights march?
5 A. Oh, that one, no, it was because of the
6 Paratroopers. I had seen the Paratroopers on
7 television the week before.
8 Q. So you were particularly concerned about the
9 possible danger on this riot?
10 A. No, it was not about riots. It was just on
11 this particular march, it was just about the
12 Paratroopers.
13 Q. You deal with that when you turn the page at
14 AW11.2, at the top, paragraph 6. I am sure everybody
15 appreciates your feelings about these matters. I will
16 not quarrel with you about them.
17 Is your recollection, sir, that you saw
18 Paratroopers manning barriers?
19 A. No.
20 Q. No?
21 A. I think I might -- I may have seen them in
22 the Lower Road, I am not sure now, but I may have seen
23 them there.
24 Q. There was an a misunderstanding yesterday for
25 which you are certainly not responsible and I probably
1 am as to what I was putting, and I put to a number of
2 people that Paratroopers would never have been at
3 barriers in the sense of manning barriers?
4 A. I honestly do not know.
5 Q. You do not know?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But during the course of the march your
8 recollection is that you saw soldiers whom you
9 recognised as Paratroopers?
10 A. No, no, no.
11 Q. No, I see. I did just wonder, I do not go
12 back on what I said that I would not quarrel with you a
13 moment ago, when you refer to what you regarded as
14 "murdering thugs" who you saw, was that not intended
15 to be a description specifically of Paratroopers?
16 A. It was, yes. No, I saw them on television
17 the week before.
18 Q. Just to clear the matter --
19 A. In my statement I said at the time I saw --
20 well, I thought there were a group of thugs, that was
21 my opinion of them after seeing them on television, but
22 --
23 Q. That is an opinion that you formed as
24 a result of what you had seen on television?
25 A. Yes, the week before at Magilligan.
1 Q. I will leave it there.
2 May we go over to AW11.3, please,
3 paragraph 14. Again I emphasise, I am not criticising
4 you at all, sir, I wholly understand why you did what
5 you did, but who was it who asked you to destroy your
6 film?
7 A. I wish I knew. At the time there was many
8 people coming to my house and there was photographers,
9 other photographers, relatives, now only a few
10 relatives of the people concerned, the people who had
11 been killed, there was reporters and somebody, somebody
12 came -- now I do not recall who it was -- somebody came
13 and asked me to destroy two negatives. Now there is
14 four -- I destroyed four because there was people
15 rioting. You could see the faces and they had stones
16 in their hands.
17 Q. I take it very shortly, sir, I am sure we all
18 appreciate that, that you did not wish your evidence to
19 be used against people who might be accused of rioting
20 on a day when very much more serious things had
21 happened?
22 A. At the time it was an automatic sentence of
23 six months for rioting.
24 Q. I just wanted you, it is as simple as this,
25 to help the Tribunal if you could: do you know the
1 names of any of the people who asked you to do that?
2 A. No, no, I cannot recall them. Somebody asked
3 me at the time, but at the time I was, I was terrified
4 that anybody would get jail -- could I finish --
5 Q. As a result of your photographs?
6 A. -- it was obvious at the time that soldiers
7 were going to get off with murder and in my case,
8 I thought attempted murder and I was, I was not going
9 to be responsible for that.
10 Q. Some of the photographs that, very
11 understandably, you did destroy when asked to were of
12 what was going on in William Street at barrier 14?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. My only question is this: do you know the
15 identities or the names of any of the individuals who
16 were shown in those photographs which you were
17 particularly asked to destroy?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You have been allowed or permitted by whoever
20 it was who saw those photographs to produce and keep
21 the negatives of a number of photographs which show
22 rioting in that street?
23 A. I took it that it was a friend or relation of
24 whoever it was.
25 Q. And you do not know --
1 A. No, no. At that time I was in a terrible
2 state. Like, on Bloody Sunday it did not affect me at
3 all, it was only afterwards when I discovered what
4 I had taken. I was in a terrible state then.
5 Q. While we are on that topic, I am sorry to
6 jump about, you refer at the end of your statement --
7 and we can look at it if necessary -- to the fact that
8 your photographs were reproduced, you believe, without
9 your permission?
10 A. Yes, they definitely were.
11 Q. You did, yourself, have a meeting, did you
12 not, quite shortly after Bloody Sunday with Philip
13 Jacobson of the Sunday Times; do you remember?
14 A. Yes. Was it not Peter Pringle of the Sunday
15 Times?
16 Q. If it helps you, I can show it to you very
17 quickly. Perhaps you will take it from me to save
18 time. We have a copy of Mr Jacobson's diary in which
19 there is an entry to a meeting with you on a Monday?
20 A. No, I never met Mr -- I spoke to
21 Philip Jacobson there a few years ago, a couple of
22 years ago or a year ago, but I have never met him.
23 I met Peter Pringle, but not Philip Jacobson.
24 Q. The fault is much more likely to be mine. It
25 is a mistake that is easily made, but we do have, the
1 reference for those who will want to check whether
2 I have made another mistake, it is M68.41. We need not
3 look at it, the document refers to a 2 pm Monday
4 meeting, and I am reminded this is, you are absolutely
5 right, Mr Pringle's diary, it was my mistake.
6 That does accord with your recollection?
7 A. I remember meeting him, sir.
8 Q. You had a meeting with him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you think it is possible, a small point,
11 that you handed the photographs over to the
12 Sunday Times team?
13 A. Yes, I think the one with Michael McDaid in
14 it, I believe.
15 Q. It may be that is where the source of the
16 photographs comes from, there is no greater mischief
17 than that?
18 A. Which ones are you talking about?
19 Q. The photographs that were published --
20 A. No, no, no, they came from a different
21 source.
22 Q. Could we next, please, look at the series of
23 photographs, I think just two of them, that you took
24 when you were in Rossville Street? To take that very
25 shortly, I was going to respectfully put to you
1 precisely what Mr Clarke has put to you, so you will
2 understand I am adopting his suggestion that you were
3 actually standing just to the north of Glenfada
4 Glenfada Park North when you took these photographs, so
5 you understand the basis on which I ask them.
6 The first one is AW11.23, if you look at that
7 first. This is the photograph that you have as 26. If
8 we lighten that, do you remember that that is a
9 photograph of the first Saracen, as you have called
10 them, the first armoured vehicle that you saw coming
11 down Rossville Street?
12 A. I believe it is, yes.
13 Q. And a very short time later, if we move on to
14 AW11.24, that is the second vehicle?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For the avoidance of doubt, so we know what
17 we are talking about, that vehicle is what we have been
18 describing -- this is for other people's benefit, I am
19 afraid rather than your benefit -- as Sergeant O's
20 Pig. I can help you about this, we know that because
21 it has girders bolted to the front which the previous
22 vehicle, which was Lieutenant N's Pig, did not have, if
23 it helps you to know there was an idea they were going
24 to push through a wall, that is the vehicle that was
25 going to do it.
1 It was the second vehicle, the one we see on
2 this photograph, sir, your photograph 27, the second
3 vehicle is the one that drew attention rightly to the
4 fact that there are soldiers behind it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you had the impression, and it is your
7 recollection that those soldiers had run from as that
8 Pig came along the road, they were running behind it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. A small correction, if I may. Please
11 disagree with me if you think I am wrong: the evidence
12 the Tribunal has from the soldiers concerned is that
13 the second Pig, the vehicle that we are looking at in
14 AW11.24, stopped just to the left of the position in
15 which you see in that photograph and that probably four
16 soldiers got out of it when it stopped and ran across
17 the road as we see them, I suggest in this photograph.
18 Does that jog any memory in your mind?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. What I am putting to you, sir, without
21 criticism, is that they are not soldiers who ran in
22 behind it, but soldiers who got out when it stopped and
23 what you see in this photograph is not what you
24 understandably, but wrongly describe as clearly showing
25 soldiers running behind it, but in fact soldiers
1 running across the road, admittedly at an angle, but
2 away from Columbcille Court, towards the wasteground as
3 the Pig restarts its journey south down
4 Rossville Street; can you help?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You cannot. If it helps anybody's note, our
7 understanding is that they would be probably P, R, U
8 and O17, or three of those four. Forgive me for
9 putting that in, it saves time later.
10 I wonder if I could stop one moment, sir,
11 I think we have a slight problem with our wonderful
12 transcript --
13 LORD SAVILLE: How much longer are you likely
14 to be, Mr Glasgow?
15 MR GLASGOW: Not more than five or ten
16 minutes. I think it has not moved for some time,
17 although our transcriber is working as ever.
18 LORD SAVILLE: It is most unlikely to be lost
19 forever.
20 MR GLASGOW: I appreciate that. Would you
21 like me to carry on and try to finish?
22 LORD SAVILLE: I do not know. Mr Elias,
23 Sir Allan, do you have any questions?
24 MR ELIAS: Only one or two, yes.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr White, we will stop for
1 lunch now and we will start again at about five to one,
2 if you could come back, I would be very grateful.
3 I would be grateful if you would refrain from
4 discussing the evidence you are giving until you have
5 finished giving it.
6 (12.50 pm)
7 (Luncheon adjournment)
8 (1.00 pm)
9 MR GLASGOW: Mr White, I just want to bring
10 you back -- leaving the photographs, you will be glad
11 to here -- bring you back to what you yourself saw at
12 the barricade. Most of it, if not all, is on AW11.4,
13 which is the fourth page of your statement. You will
14 remember that you helped answer Mr Toohey on the
15 Tribunal questions about going back to the barricade
16 and stopping there on your way down to Free Derry
17 Corner; do you remember, the Tribunal asked you whether
18 you were on your way down, effectively fortuitously
19 stopped at the barricade on your way down to Free Derry
20 Corner because you had been going to the meeting?
21 A. I do not understand that.
22 Q. In that case, perhaps I should ask it
23 neutrally: why did you stop at the barricade?
24 A. Which barricade?
25 Q. The rubble barricade.
1 A. I did not stop at the rubble barricade.
2 Q. The place where you took the photographs
3 from, close to that rubble barricade. I think it is
4 common ground that you had been on your way to the
5 meeting at Free Derry Corner?
6 A. No, I was not going to the meeting at all.
7 Q. You were not?
8 A. No.
9 LORD SAVILLE: I do not think he ever said
10 that.
11 MR TOOHEY: I think it was the previous
12 witness.
13 MR GLASGOW: In that case, sir, I am
14 confused, I apologise. I begin again. I am very
15 sorry. It is my fault.
16 Paragraph 19, when you went to the rubble
17 barricade, you did so because you thought there was
18 going to be a confrontation and you might get some good
19 photographs?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What do you mean by "confrontation"?
22 A. A riot.
23 Q. A riot?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Is that what happened?
1 A. No.
2 Q. While you were at the rubble barricade --
3 I am using the term very generally -- in the area of
4 the rubble barricade, you heard rubber bullets being
5 fired?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you hear any other firing, or explosive
8 noise of any kind until you heard the shot which you
9 believed had been fired at you by the soldier on the
10 corner of Glenfada Park?
11 A. No, I heard shots before that.
12 Q. You heard shots before?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you see any rioting, what you would
15 describe as rioting at all?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you see anybody --
18 A. Not at the barricade -- now, I saw it at
19 barricade 14, but this is the rubble barricade, no.
20 Q. Just talking about the rubble barricade. Did
21 you see any objects thrown, of any kind?
22 A. No.
23 Q. While you were on that pram ramp,
24 Glenfada Park South, looking at the scene that we see
25 in your photographs, you did not see a single stone
1 thrown?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You heard a lot of rubber bullets fired?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you heard some other noises which you
6 took to be live ammunition?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you saw Mr Gilmore, the gentleman you
9 subsequently learnt was Mr Gilmore, running south on
10 the pavement and photographed him, you initially
11 believed that he must have been hit by a rubber bullet?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that because at that stage you had not
14 heard any firing other than what you believed to be
15 rubber bullets?
16 A. No, I had heard shooting before that, other
17 than rubber bullets, yes.
18 Q. Why had you reached the conclusion, why had
19 you supposed that Mr Gilmore had only been hit by
20 a rubber bullet?
21 A. Because I heard -- as I said in my statement,
22 I thought this was a new tactic, firing rifle fire in
23 the air and shooting rubber bullets at the same time,
24 to scare the life out of people.
25 Q. Forgive me, I think you came to that
1 conclusion after --
2 A. No, before that, before that. I was,
3 because, as I said, the solicitor for Mr Kelly, I think
4 it was, before I took the photograph, I said to
5 somebody "this must be a new tactic".
6 Q. Yes, if it helps you, could we go over the
7 page to AW11.5? I thought -- again it may be my
8 mistake -- the top paragraph, which is the end of 24,
9 that you spoke about that in your statement and in your
10 evidence as a conclusion you came to and something you
11 said after you believed that you yourself had been
12 fired at?
13 A. No, it was before it.
14 Q. Before?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When we see the account in paragraph 24 of
17 the firing above your head?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you remember saying to somebody -- not to
20 Mr McAteer, who I think was Hugh McAteer, with whom you
21 worked?
22 A. Yeah. No, I did not work with him. Did you
23 say with whom I worked?
24 Q. With whom you were?
25 A. Were, sorry.
1 Q. You said you were with a Mr McAteer --
2 A. No, I was not with him, he was just standing
3 beside me.
4 Q. You met him?
5 A. No, I did not know him, he was just standing
6 beside me.
7 Q. I am right in saying that you believe of all
8 the McAteers we have heard about, this was the
9 gentleman called Hugh?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. For the avoidance of doubt, the priest or the
12 man who subsequently became --
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. Still looking at paragraph 24, if we may,
15 this is a description of a shot you believe was fired
16 either at you or over your head. You say in the final
17 four lines:
18 "I remember saying to someone else (not
19 McAteer) who was standing on the pram ramp when I heard
20 the rifle fire that this must be new tactics that the
21 Army were using."
22 I understand in that paragraph that that was
23 a paragraph you had come to and it was something you
24 said, as described in that paragraph, after you
25 believed you had been shot at?
1 A. No, I said it before I was shot. In fact
2 I said it before I took any photographs at all on the
3 ramp.
4 Q. You looked towards the soldier who was
5 standing by the corner of block 1, as we have called
6 it, of the Rossville Flats -- does that make sense to
7 you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You looked at that soldier because you
10 believed he might have been the soldier who fired
11 a rubber bullet, as you thought, at Mr Gilmore?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was there any reason why you supposed, if
14 that is the right word to use, that that particular
15 soldier might be the soldier who had fired or was he
16 just the only soldier you could see?
17 A. He was only the soldier I could see and
18 I always took it he was the man who shot Hugh Gilmore,
19 I took it for granted he was the man who did.
20 Q. Had you seen other soldiers in --
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. You did not?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you aware -- again I can put this to you
25 as common ground between almost all the witnesses, that
1 by that stage there were soldiers behind the low wall
2 which is at the bottom of the pram ramp to
3 Columbcille Court and Kells Walk?
4 A. That is a ramp further on down?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I did not see -- I did not look in that
7 direction, all I seen was the rifle coming up towards
8 me and that is all I saw.
9 Q. You looked at that soldier because he was the
10 only one?
11 A. Yes, he was the only one I saw, he was the
12 only one I was looking at.
13 Q. He was the only one you were conscious of?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When we look at your statement, you said that
16 he was taking cover against the gable end and you could
17 only see his head and shoulders?
18 A. That is not true. When I think back on it,
19 I saw -- he was standing sort of with his shoulder
20 against the corner.
21 Q. I wondered if you could help the Tribunal:
22 why is it two years after you made that statement and
23 signed it, after your discussion with Eversheds, that
24 you change your mind as to whether that soldier was
25 taking cover or standing out in the open; what is it
1 that refreshes your recollection?
2 A. Because the more I think about it, the more
3 I realise he was out. He was not in the open, but he
4 was just standing at the corner.
5 Q. When that shot was fired in your direction,
6 did you believe at the time that it was fired over your
7 head to scare you, or at you?
8 A. I believe he was firing at me.
9 Q. So the final sentence that we have on this
10 page, back to where we started, remembering what you
11 said to somebody, that has no place in this paragraph
12 at all because, by the time you got to this stage, you
13 believe that the shot was fired at you and not over
14 your head?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you watch that soldier all the time that
17 he raised, I think you said very slowly raised his
18 rifle?
19 A. Well, it seemed to me very slowly because he
20 had it pointed down and he brought it up and I think we
21 saw each other at the same time. That is the way
22 I always think about it, we saw each other at the same
23 time.
24 Q. You watched as he raised -- your word this
25 morning was "an eternity" -- you watched all the time
1 as he slowly raised his --
2 A. Well, it seemed slowly at the time, it
3 probably was not.
4 Q. You watched all that time?
5 A. Yes, I will never forget that.
6 Q. You say you would never forget it, the
7 account you give of the soldier standing out in the
8 open, it is not the same account as you gave in
9 a carefully considered statement to solicitors two
10 years ago?
11 A. That is true.
12 Q. What do you mean when you say you will never
13 forget?
14 A. I was more interested in the rifle than
15 anything else.
16 Q. I fully appreciate the evidence you have
17 given, Mr White. I have to put to you, because in all
18 probability I act for that soldier -- the soldier we
19 are talking about on that corner is likely to be a
20 client of mine. If he is, I have to suggest to you
21 that neither he or any other soldier on that corner
22 deliberately fired in your direction?
23 A. I would contest that.
24 Q. I also suggest to you that whoever that
25 soldier was, all soldiers on that corner, as the
1 Tribunal has seen in both videos and photographs, were
2 at all times taking cover, very obviously, right round
3 that corner and peering round and only their heads and
4 shoulders showing and that your original statement was
5 correct. But you stand by the correction you have made
6 today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The last matter is this, I briefly take you
9 back to your destruction of your photographs: did you
10 yourself, when you printed the photographs and saw what
11 the negatives had displayed when they were printed as
12 positives, did you decide that some of those showed
13 individuals who might be in trouble as a result of your
14 photographs?
15 A. Oh I realised that, yes.
16 Q. You did?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And quite independently of what was said to
19 you by somebody else, did you take the decision that if
20 your photographs showed a face of somebody who might be
21 identified as a rioter, that you ought properly to
22 destroy that?
23 A. Yes, I would have. I did it before with
24 other photographs.
25 Q. If that is right, why did you not destroy the
1 photograph which so graphically shows Mr -- sorry,
2 I have momentarily forgotten his name, if we go to your
3 photograph -- Danny Craig --
4 A. That had already been published.
5 Q. Sorry?
6 A. That had already been published.
7 Q. You had already published --
8 A. No, I had not published it.
9 Q. I did not mean you personally. It had
10 already been published, the photograph we have at
11 AW11.27?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That photograph had already been published?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Before you took the decision that you should
16 destroy photographs that showed people's identifies?
17 A. Yes. If it had not been published, I would
18 probably have destroyed it too.
19 Q. You do not know the identity of those people
20 in William Street whose images were destroyed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Or the identity of those who asked you to
23 destroy them?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you, sir.
1 Questioned by MR ELIAS
2 MR ELIAS: Just on that point, Mr White: you
3 developed the photographs that evening, you have told
4 us in the statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. A short time later you gave them to a friend?
7 A. Yes -- no, I gave the negatives to a friend.
8 Q. You gave the negatives to a friend?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As I understand your evidence, by inference
11 from your statement you are saying that it must have
12 been through that route that some of these photographs
13 were published?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you have given, have you, the name of
16 your friend to the Tribunal?
17 A. No.
18 Q. But you would, would you, if you were asked?
19 A. Oh, yes.
20 Q. So, did you give all the negatives to that
21 individual?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Because by this time no question of
24 destroying them had arisen?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did he return them to you?
2 A. Yes, he did the next day.
3 Q. Did you know whether he had copied them?
4 A. I discovered later that he had.
5 Q. Were some of them missing when he returned
6 the batch to you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So to send to the press, they must have been
9 copied?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The photograph that you have told us at the
12 beginning of your statement in paragraph 4 -- I do not
13 think it needs to be put up, photograph 22, you have
14 actually brought here today, it is not missing?
15 A. No.
16 Q. That shows rioting at the barrier?
17 A. On William Street, yes.
18 Q. Barrier 14?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you have the original of that? I think it
21 has not been satisfactorily scanned in.
22 MR CLARKE: It has now. Could I help? If we
23 put up on the screen AW11.32, we will get a rather poor
24 copy. We will get a better copy in due course. If we
25 put that on the screen, you can see what it will show.
1 MR ELIAS: If you would have the hard copy,
2 Mr White, in your hand, do you have that?
3 A. Yes, I have it here.
4 Q. We can possibly make it out. If I arrow.
5 (Indicating). Where there is a yellow mark now, above
6 an individual just below and to the left of that yellow
7 block, do you follow, that man would appear to have
8 a masked face, would he not?
9 A. Yes, he would, yes.
10 Q. Centre right, just below the yellow mark
11 I have made, a man with dark glasses and a white
12 handkerchief covering most of his face, is that right?
13 A. No, he has not got glasses, it just appears
14 like glasses on that one. In the original here, no
15 glasses.
16 Q. No glasses?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Finally, could I ask you to confirm that the
19 man to the left of that yellow block would appear to
20 have in perhaps his right hand, it does not matter
21 which, a stick or a pool cue or something of that kind?
22 A. Yes.
23 Questioned by MR CLARKE
24 MR CLARKE: Two matters, if I may. You told
25 Mr Glasgow that your observing to Mr McAteer that the
1 Army must be using new tactics --
2 A. It was not Mr --
3 Q. Somebody else?
4 A. Somebody else, yes.
5 Q. Is something that occurred before you took
6 the photographs?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Of Michael Kelly and others?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the new tactics that you meant by that
11 was of firing rifles above people's heads?
12 A. I thought they were firing in the air because
13 there was no reason to be firing rifles at all.
14 Q. Before you made that remark, had you heard
15 what seemed to you to be rifle fire into the air?
16 A. That is why I made the statement.
17 Q. The second matter I wanted to deal with, is
18 this: to ask you if you can identify yourself in any
19 photographs. Could we have on the screen photograph
20 433? Over in the left-hand corner of this photograph
21 there is a man looking at a camera. Do you know
22 whether that is you?
23 A. No, I do not think so.
24 Q. You do not think it is?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Could we have EP5.24.001? Somebody has
2 suggested that that might be you?
3 A. I do not think so because -- it is possible,
4 now, but I was wearing glasses at the time, does he
5 appear to be wearing glasses?
6 Q. He does not seem to be.
7 A. No, I would have been wearing glasses at the
8 time.
9 Q. Lastly, can we have photograph P349? Is that
10 you?
11 A. Definitely not.
12 Q. Thank you. That is all I wanted to ask.
13 LORD SAVILLE: The photographs, Mr White, the
14 negatives that you said you destroyed, 14, 15, 19 and
15 23, what did they depict?
16 A. Just rioting on William Street.
17 LORD SAVILLE: All of them taken in
18 William Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 LORD SAVILLE: When you say "just rioting",
21 what sort of scenes were they?
22 A. People throwing stones.
23 LORD SAVILLE: People throwing stones?
24 A. Yes.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much indeed for
1 coming here to help the Inquiry.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 MR PAUL McGREADY, sworn
4 Questioned by MS McGAHEY
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McGready, I hope I have
6 your name right. I say this to all the witnesses:
7 questions will come from the barristers in front of
8 me. Will you try and remember to keep fairly close to
9 that microphone so we can hear what you have to say.
10 MS McGAHEY: Mr McGready, do you have with
11 you a copy of the statement you made to this Inquiry
12 and signed on 7th May 1999?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
15 the best of your knowledge and belief?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Everybody here has had a chance to read your
18 statement, so I only intend to ask you questions about
19 part of it. In summary, on the first page you tell us
20 that you were with Gavan Duffy on the march. In fact
21 Mr Duffy, as you may know, gave evidence before the
22 summer break to the Inquiry.
23 You walked along William Street to the
24 junction with Rossville Street and over the page at
25 paragraph 9, reached the rubble barricade or somewhere
1 in that area, heard a rumour that somebody had been
2 shot; went back up William Street to the wasteground
3 near the old laundry?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Saw nothing at all and returned to
6 Rossville Street via the route that you have shown us
7 on your map, going down inside Columbcille Court,
8 inside Glenfada Park North?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If we turn to paragraph 14, AM219.3, you tell
11 us that as you walked -- in fact it is along the inside
12 of Columbcille Court -- you looked out and saw the Army
13 Pigs coming in?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If we go on to paragraphs 16 and 17, you tell
16 us there that as you stood in Rossville Street at the
17 point that you have marked for us, which is south of
18 the rubble barricade, you looked up and saw six
19 soldiers behind a low wall at the south end of
20 Kells Walk and six more soldiers behind the wall at the
21 southernmost end of the pram ramp. You have marked
22 those already for us on a map.
23 I would like you to look at a photograph.
24 Could we have P257 on the screen, please? This
25 photograph, as you can see, is taken from an upstairs
1 window in the Rossville Flats. It looks out on to
2 Glenfada Park North, which is to the left of the
3 photograph and Kells Walk on the right. You can see
4 the pram ramps and the walls, I think, that you have
5 referred to. I am marking the southern end of the
6 Kells Walk building at the moment; is that the low wall
7 behind which you saw six soldiers? (Indicating).
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I am now marking the pram ramp at the
10 southern end. (Indicating). Is that the area that you
11 had in mind for the other soldiers?
12 A. Approximately.
13 Q. Sorry?
14 A. Approximately.
15 Q. Approximately?
16 A. Mmm.
17 Q. There is no need to save that, we can see it
18 is at the bottom end of the pram ramp leading up to
19 Kells Walk.
20 You tell us in your statement that you were
21 at or behind the barricade looking upwards. Were you
22 with or near to Gavan Duffy at that time?
23 A. Probably within 10 metres.
24 Q. When he gave evidence, he thought he
25 recognised himself from a photograph. I would like to
1 show you that photograph. Could we have EP35.3,
2 please? It is obviously very difficult to recognise
3 people, they all have their backs to the camera.
4 Mr Duffy believed he was the man I am highlighting in
5 the middle, wearing a short jacket and what appears to
6 be a white shirt underneath. Can you recognise
7 yourself in that photograph?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Or indeed anybody else?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Going back to your statement, please,
12 AM219.3, paragraphs 17 to 19, you tell us that some of
13 the lads who were standing to the south of the rubble
14 barricade were throwing stones at both groups of
15 Paras.
16 How many boys roughly were involved in this?
17 A. Maybe a dozen.
18 Q. A dozen. Were there other people around in
19 the area at the time?
20 A. There was plenty of people around, but they
21 were just standing, observing, yeah.
22 Q. Were there people coming down
23 Rossville Street towards you?
24 A. No, because the Army were, were in
25 Rossville Street.
1 Q. You have told us that rubber bullets were
2 being fired by the soldiers and that they were
3 virtually spent by the time they reached the
4 barricade. We have heard from other people that rubber
5 bullets were souvenirs and could be collected.
6 Did anybody that you saw go forward from the
7 rubble barricade to collect any?
8 A. No, I did not see any.
9 Q. At that time, before the man you saw was
10 arrested and people did move forward -- we will come to
11 that in a moment -- at that time was there anybody in
12 front of the rubble barricade on the side of the
13 soldiers?
14 A. I do not think so.
15 Q. You have told us in paragraph 17 that at this
16 stage none of the soldiers was aiming his rifle at the
17 people at the barricade. But were rubber bullets being
18 aimed at those on the barricade?
19 A. (Witness nodding).
20 Q. Going on to paragraph 19, you tell us that
21 you saw a young lad stumbling as he came across the
22 rubble from the wasteground, attempting to reach the
23 rubble barricade. If we go over the page, you give us
24 a description of him at the top of that page.
25 If I showed you a photograph of a boy, might
1 you recognise him as the boy being arrested?
2 A. Maybe.
3 Q. Could we have on the screen, please,
4 EP24.5A? Does the appearance of that boy look
5 familiar?
6 A. Looks similar.
7 Q. I am going to show you another photograph, if
8 we could have P503.7, does this look like the face of
9 the boy that you saw?
10 A. It could be, you know, but most people in
11 those days kind of dressed the same, looked the same,
12 um ...
13 Q. If we go back to your statement at paragraphs
14 20 to 21, AM219.4, you tell us in paragraph 20 that
15 there were three or four fellows immediately south of
16 the rubble barricade who decided they would go and
17 rescue this boy and paragraph 21, that one of the boys
18 in the rescue group moved forward to do that.
19 Mr Duffy, when he gave evidence, told us that
20 when the people behind the rubble barricade saw the
21 arrest going on, about 80 people surged from behind the
22 barricade towards it. Does that accord with anything
23 you remember?
24 A. I do not recall 80 people, no, not as many as
25 that.
1 Q. What sort of numbers, if any, do you think
2 surged up towards the barricade from the Free Derry
3 Corner side?
4 A. Probably about maybe several dozen.
5 Q. His recollection also was that about 20 to 30
6 people went over the barricade, north of it towards the
7 soldiers. Do you remember anything like that
8 happening?
9 A. Um, I do not recall that, no.
10 Q. How many people in your recollection went
11 over the barricade?
12 A. I would say maybe between 6 to 12 people.
13 Q. The boy you have described in paragraph 21 as
14 moving forward and climbing over the barricade, was he
15 the first one to go over?
16 A. He was one of the first I saw, yeah.
17 Q. I would like to ask you to have a look at
18 another photograph, please. This is a photograph that,
19 for the record, exists in several places. One
20 reference is AM486, but an effort has been made to
21 enhance it and its reference is INQ1.6.
22 This photograph is taken from the wasteground
23 on Eden Place. You can see in the background the
24 Kells Walk pram ramp, Glenfada Park North and that is
25 a large picture of a soldier arresting the same boy as
1 the one you saw earlier.
2 On the left-hand side of the photograph you
3 will see we have made an effort to enhance the quality
4 of the picture. It seems possible that the picture
5 shows one man running forward there, another there,
6 there may be one or more people there and another
7 there. (Indicating).
8 The line I have marked as yellow is the
9 rubble barricade. The photograph is not of good
10 quality, as you can see. But looking at the numbers of
11 people we think you may be able to see there, does that
12 accord with your recollection of what you saw?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Returning to your statement at paragraphs 21
15 and 22, 21 you tell us that you cannot recall whether
16 the boy had a stone in one of his hands. Had you
17 noticed him at all before he went to climb over the
18 barricade?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You say he certainly was not carrying a gun,
21 nail bomb or petrol bomb. Did you see anybody at the
22 barricade carrying any of those things?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you hear or see any nail bombs or petrol
25 bombs exploding?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see any weapons at all in that area,
3 whether in the hand of a civilian or not?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Obviously as we have seen from your
6 description, you saw the back view of the boy. Did you
7 at any time see his face?
8 A. No.
9 Q. If I showed you a back view of a boy, might
10 you recognise him?
11 A. Again, as I say, from a back, from that
12 previous photograph everybody looks similar, you know
13 hairwise, Wrangler jackets, jeans, but I could look.
14 Q. Could we have P413 on the screen, please.
15 This photograph may or may not contain in it a picture
16 of the boy that you saw. The one with whom I am
17 particularly interested at the moment is the man
18 there. (Indicating). We know him to be a man called
19 Michael Kelly. Does that look at all like the boy you
20 saw?
21 A. No, I think that the fella I saw was more to
22 the right.
23 Q. Leaving aside the location of the person,
24 because obviously people could move quite a distance in
25 a short space of time, does that person have the
1 appearance of the one you saw going over the barricade?
2 A. Similar, yes.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Could we go back to
4 your statement at AM219.4? Could we highlight
5 paragraph 22, please? You tell us there that at that
6 point you heard gunfire and realised that it was live
7 bullets that were being fired. Were you familiar with
8 the sound of live firing?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You say that the fire came from a northerly
11 direction, but you are not really sure, it could have
12 been coming from elsewhere. Can you give us any
13 indication of how close the firing was to you?
14 A. By sound or by --
15 Q. By sound?
16 A. As an area it is quite, it is quite enclosed,
17 so it sounded very close, it could have been very
18 close, you know, maybe 100 -- within 100 yards.
19 Q. Did you see any of the soldiers firing at
20 that stage?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You tell us, though, that you saw lumps of
23 masonry fall off a wall on the side of Glenfada Park.
24 I would like to show you another photograph. Could we
25 have P428, please? This photograph shows the entrance
1 into Glenfada Park from Rossville Street with the gable
2 of Glenfada Park on the right-hand side. The
3 photograph may not be large enough, but can you see on
4 that photograph the area you thought was struck by
5 bullets?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If you are given control, could you mark that
8 on the screen for us, please. You can use either your
9 finger or a stylus, if there is one there?
10 A. (Marked with blue arrow - AD219.8).
11 Q. Could you give us any idea of the number of
12 shots that hit that wall?
13 A. A couple.
14 Q. Sorry, a couple?
15 A. A couple, yeah.
16 Q. Could we save that image, please, as
17 AD219.8?
18 Returning to your statement, then, at
19 AM219.5, you tell us that you ran into
20 Glenfada Park South and then in paragraph 26, after you
21 had left Glenfada Park South, you saw people milling
22 about in the Bog Road that you also know as
23 Fahan Street West and saw two Knights of Malta carrying
24 a young boy.
25 Were they male or female Knights of Malta?
1 A. Male.
2 Q. Are you in fact sure that they were members
3 of that Order?
4 A. Well, they were wearing the grey uniforms and
5 the peak caps.
6 Q. They were wearing the grey uniforms and caps?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. You saw them carrying a boy who appeared to
9 be bleeding from the mouth. If I showed you
10 a photograph of the boy, might you recognise him?
11 A. I do not think so, no.
12 Q. Thank you very much, those are all the
13 questions I have.
14 Questioned by MR MACDONALD
15 MR MACDONALD: Mr McGeady, my name is
16 MacDonald and I represent the family of Michael Kelly.
17 May I ask you to look first of all at
18 paragraph 21 of your statement, AM219.4? You see there
19 you say that:
20 "One of the young lads in the rescue group
21 moved forward and was climbing over the barricade to go
22 to the lad on the ground. I recall that this boy was
23 casually dressed and had dark shoulder-length hair."
24 When you say "casually dressed", did you mean
25 in the sort of clothes that you referred to just a few
1 moments ago?
2 A. Not necessarily, no.
3 Q. What did you mean?
4 A. Um, just jacket, trousers, whatever, you
5 know, I do not mean -- he was not wearing a sort of
6 Wrangler jacket or things like that.
7 Q. Say that again?
8 A. As I say, I do not believe he was wearing
9 a Wrangler jacket.
10 Q. He was not wearing a Wrangler jacket?
11 A. No, it was a jacket and pants, jacket and
12 trousers.
13 Q. Could I ask you to look at EP27.7? You see
14 the person there to whom your attention was drawn
15 earlier, towards the right-hand side, the person with
16 what appears to be a suit on?
17 A. Yes.
18 LORD SAVILLE: We could probably enlarge that
19 part of the photograph, Mr MacDonald, if it is helpful.
20 MR MACDONALD: I have not control of my
21 screen. Could you mark on the screen the person you
22 were referring to?
23 A. (Marked with blue arrow).
24 Q. Yes, that person is Michael Kelly.
25 A. Right.
1 Q. We know that he was wearing a suit, and he
2 appears in the photograph to be wearing a suit.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Would you describe a person wearing a suit as
5 casually dressed?
6 A. It depends. I mean, it was a Sunday for one
7 thing, so people tend to dress, dress up more for
8 a Sunday. So for a Sunday, I would consider that
9 normal attire.
10 Q. Would it not be fair to say that that person
11 in the photograph is actually smartly dressed?
12 A. He was smartly dressed, yes, but for
13 a Sunday, I mean, maybe some other day of the week it
14 might not be as relevant, you know.
15 LORD SAVILLE: The point of the question,
16 Mr McGeady, looking at this picture -- perhaps we could
17 expand this side of the picture, please, so we get a
18 slightly bigger, better view -- is really whether you
19 think that person depicted in that picture, does he
20 look dressed like the person that you saw shot?
21 A. It could be, yes.
22 LORD SAVILLE: It could be?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR MACDONALD: You see, we know that
25 Michael Kelly, that person in the photograph, was shot
1 by a person known as Soldier F and Soldier F says that
2 he shot that person when he was behind the barricade,
3 attempting to throw what looked like a bomb. Can we
4 take it that you did not see that person attempting to
5 throw what looked like a bomb?
6 A. No. The person that I saw shot was trying to
7 get this person back that had been apprehended by the
8 Para, paratrooper.
9 Q. In relation to the point where these people
10 were apparently trying to cross over the barricade, if
11 I can ask you to look at the photograph that was put up
12 on the screen as INQ1.6, your attention was drawn to
13 what appears to be people on the far left-hand side, if
14 that could be highlighted.
15 Those people appear to be, insofar as one can
16 tell, quite close to the wall of Glenfada Park North,
17 do they not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. They are not in the middle of the road?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Does that correspond with what you saw?
22 A. Well, I -- my belief was that the person
23 I saw was more towards the, the right-hand side of the
24 barricade.
25 Q. Right-hand side of the barricade?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That is on this side of the road?
3 A. Yes, more towards the Rossville Flats.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Questioned by MR CLARKE
6 MR CLARKE: Mr McGeady, my name is Clarke,
7 I appear on behalf of a number of the soldiers. Could
8 you have a look on that last point at a photograph we
9 have P419, please? You have seen that image before,
10 sir?
11 A. Yes, I have, yes.
12 Q. It is one of the images that is frequently
13 reproduced. It shows Mr Kelly on the ground being
14 tended to very soon after he has been hit by a bullet.
15 You see where the rubble barricade is?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you see the relative distance between,
18 not the rubble barricade behind him because of course
19 he would have been behind the piece of the rubble
20 barricade to the left of this image, would he not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was he thrown, was the person who you
23 remember being hit thrown that far back?
24 A. What, from the rubble barricade on the
25 left-hand side?
1 Q. Yes, when they were hit by a bullet, because
2 that is quite a long way, is it not, we are a good six,
3 seven yards, I would suggest?
4 A. Well, you see -- as I say, the person, they
5 would not have been thrown back from across the street.
6 Q. No, when this person was --
7 A. Knocked back from the rubble barricade.
8 Q. Knocked back from the rubble barricade?
9 A. A matter of a few yards.
10 Q. A few yards? When you say a few yards, that
11 could be up to ten feet?
12 A. No, no, say within six feet.
13 Q. The reason I just, if I may, through you,
14 I would like to make something clear and make it clear
15 to you: my learned friend Mr MacDonald put to you
16 a couple of minutes ago that Soldier F, and he is
17 absolutely right in this, fired a shot which eventually
18 lodged in Michael Kelly's body. But it is also
19 perfectly clear, and indeed was put to a witness this
20 week, that the bullet as it entered Michael Kelly was
21 virtually sideways, because it made a wound over an
22 inch wide, do you follow?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The expert evidence available to this
25 Tribunal tends to show that, therefore, was not
1 a direct shot, do you follow, in other words the bullet
2 was revolving because it had struck something before it
3 struck Michael Kelly, you follow? Just so you
4 understand the state of the evidence that the Tribunal
5 will be hearing and which has been opened by Counsel to
6 the Inquiry. That is why I want you to help us as to
7 whether when this person is thrown back, do you
8 remember whether anyone else collapsed, either seeming
9 through fear or because they appeared to have been hit
10 by anything?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is your specific recollection of just one
13 person being thrown back, or were you so concentrating
14 on that that you were not aware of anything else?
15 A. I would say I was probably concentrating on
16 that because I did not understand it, why this person
17 was thrown back.
18 Q. It was a mysterious event?
19 A. It was mysterious to me.
20 Q. There was not, at that time, a shot that you
21 heard that you associated with it?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Which is why, sir, as we have seen in
24 photographs, sometimes when people are on the ground,
25 having been hit by bullets, those next to them do not
1 realise that it has happened; indeed the predecessor to
2 this photograph, it is quite obvious.
3 Can I ask you two other matters: you were not
4 an enthusiastic attender at riots, were you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Gavan Duffy was a bit keener than you were?
7 A. Possibly was, yes.
8 Q. He was sort of taking you on one of your
9 first outings, or not?
10 A. No, I worked with Gavan, it is just, the
11 march was so big, whoever you met up with, you just
12 tagged along, because you try and find other friends,
13 it was impossible really, because you just, whatever
14 person you met, you just tagged along with them. On
15 that day Gavan was not, there was no rioting.
16 Q. Gavan was not rioting?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you stay with him as he stood by the
19 rubble barricade, or did you melt away?
20 A. When I realised that -- when we both realised
21 that it was live round, we -- well, I made my break for
22 it. I do not know where he went.
23 Q. Do you not remember seeing that arrest in the
24 middle of the wasteground and the effect it had on
25 people?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have an image of it in your mind now,
3 independent of the photographs you have seen?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The young men at the barricade hated the
6 soldiers, did they not, absolutely hated them?
7 A. No, I would not say hated, no.
8 Q. Were there not chants of "Hey, hey, IRA" at
9 the barricade?
10 A. Not that I was aware of, no.
11 Q. You did not hear that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. There was a lot of shouting, was there not?
14 A. There is always shouting.
15 Q. There was always shouting?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But it was directed at the soldiers?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. There was fury when one of those soldiers was
20 arresting one of the lads?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So much so that, I suggest, there was
23 a palpable surge forward of a lot of people; not just
24 a dozen, it was more than that?
25 A. From where I was standing, I was not aware
1 what was coming from, from behind or from the sides,
2 I could just sort of see what was in front.
3 Q. Were you actually near the front?
4 A. I must have been quite near it.
5 Q. At that stage?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS McGAHEY: Just one matter. Could we have
9 photograph P423 on the screen, please?
10 Mr McGeady, this photograph was taken on the
11 day. It is taken, as you can see, from the bottom end
12 of the Rossville Flats looking up towards
13 William Street. That shows the rubble barricade as it
14 was on the day?
15 A. (Witness nodding).
16 Q. Looking at that photograph, can you give us
17 any idea of where the young man you saw, you thought
18 shot, fell, could you mark the screen?
19 A. Right, I believed that it was round about
20 here. (Marked with blue arrow - AM219.9).
21 Q. On the side of the Rossville Flats?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could we save that, please, as AM219.9?
24 Thank you very much, those are all the questions
25 I have.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McGeady, the Chairman
2 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
3 assist the Inquiry.
4 (The witness withdrew)
5 MR THOMAS CARLIN, sworn
6 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
7 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Carlin, I am the Chairman
8 of the Tribunal. You have probably heard me say this
9 to other witnesses, I say it to you all. The questions
10 will come from in front of me. Can you try and
11 remember to keep fairly close to the microphone in
12 front of you so we can hear what you have to say.
13 MR ROXBURGH: Mr Carlin, do you have with you
14 a copy of the statement that you made to this Inquiry
15 on 21st July last year, the first page of which is now
16 on the screen as AC144.1?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
19 the best of your knowledge and belief?
20 A. Yes, they are.
21 Q. You tell us that you went on the march with
22 a number of people from work?
23 A. (Witness nodding).
24 Q. In paragraph 3 you say that you knew that the
25 planned destination of the march was the Guildhall
1 Square?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you remember how you knew that?
4 A. Well, it is just that, in the week before the
5 march there was quite a lot of discussion in work and
6 other places about the march itself and anything I had
7 read was that the march was -- the intention was to go
8 to the centre, which I suppose assumed was the
9 Guildhall Square.
10 Q. Did you have any idea that the march might
11 not be allowed to go through to the Guildhall Square?
12 A. Yes, there was plenty of talk on that as
13 well, that the march was of course declared illegal and
14 that, it happened before, that sorta, the attitude at
15 the time was that marches were not really allowed into
16 the city centre. Then before that it was clear there
17 would be a protest march against it by the DUP and that
18 could prevent the march going there at that particular
19 time.
20 Q. That was something you knew at the time when
21 you set out on the march, was it?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. In paragraph 4 you say that you went into the
24 wasteground near Eden Place and Pilot's Row?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. As you were walking across the wasteground
2 you heard a volley of about six or seven bangs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you thought they were rubber bullets?
5 A. That is correct, yes.
6 Q. And you say people around you were shouting
7 that live rounds were being fired, but you thought that
8 was preposterous?
9 A. There is one person in particular who was
10 quite close to me, as I said, he had an English
11 accent. He was saying they were live rounds. I simply
12 did not believe that at the time.
13 Q. Some people also said that two people had
14 been shot in William Street?
15 A. We had heard that rumour on the march earlier
16 on the way down. Again, when these things happened in
17 the city there were always a certain amount of rumours
18 and speculation about what had happened. The people
19 I was with at the time certainly did not take any sort
20 of credence there were people shot by live rounds at
21 the time. Probably my own opinion, I would assume they
22 were probably hit by plastic bullets or rubber bullets
23 at the time, rather than live rounds.
24 Q. Do you in fact now know that there were
25 indeed two people who had been shot in William Street?
1 A. Yes, I do know, yes.
2 Q. You are aware of that?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. When you heard people on the day saying that
5 live rounds were being fired, was it apparent to you
6 that they were referring to the six or seven bangs that
7 you heard or could they have been referring to
8 something else?
9 A. It was not apparent to me that they were
10 talking about the six or seven rounds, that was not
11 what I assumed, no.
12 Q. Is it possible that what you heard, the bangs
13 that you heard were indeed rubber bullets, as you
14 thought at the time and that the people shouting about
15 live rounds were referring to the shooting in
16 William Street that you had not heard?
17 A. No, I do not think so. The talk about the
18 shooting in William Street was, as I said, we were
19 approaching down William Street itself and before
20 I made my way into the wasteground, the talk about
21 firing live rounds that you are referring to was simply
22 as we came through that and people began to run towards
23 the flats. I assumed they were talking about live
24 rounds at the time, but to me the noise I heard was not
25 associated with live rounds. I was not familiar with
1 them.
2 Q. Thank you. In this same paragraph you go on
3 to say that you heard more bangs and an English
4 gentleman dropped down behind a small wall?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At the approximate point marked B. I take it
7 you do not know who that English gentleman was?
8 A. No, I have no idea, no.
9 Q. Was there anything to indicate that he was
10 a journalist or a cameraman?
11 A. He, he did have a notebook in his pocket
12 which he was not at that particular time -- I just
13 assumed he was a journalist afterwards, but I had no
14 real evidence other than I saw a notebook in his pocket
15 as he was there.
16 Q. Can we look at a map at AC144.7, just to see
17 where you have indicated that he dropped down behind
18 this wall? You have marked, or there has been marked
19 for you point B there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Which is just round about the mouth of the
22 entrance into the car park.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. From the wasteground?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. Is that right, do you think?
2 A. It is around that point. I am not completely
3 sure of the exact spot. There was a sort of low wall
4 that seemed to me had some sort of metal apparatus with
5 it as well, as if it had been part of a children's
6 swing or seesaw or something originally, what had been
7 demolished. It was just the edge of the -- there was
8 an earthen sort of area in the wasteground and then
9 became tarmac, it was just around the border of the two
10 sections.
11 Q. Let us have a look at a photograph, if we
12 may, P209.
13 Can you see, Mr Carlin, on this photograph
14 that we have the wasteground here?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then round about the entrance to the car park
17 there is a -- can you make out a fence running along
18 there?
19 A. There was a fence running along, yes, I have
20 seen that in the photograph as well.
21 Q. Do you think that was the position where the
22 man dropped down, or was it somewhere else?
23 A. It was just a little -- if I can just --
24 Q. If we give you control of the screen you can
25 point?
1 A. (Marked with yellow arrow - AC144.9). A
2 little shorter than that, to about there.
3 Q. Can we take off all the arrows except the
4 last one that Mr Carlin put on, please? There does not
5 appear to be a wall actually visible on the photograph,
6 but you are satisfied, are you, it was somewhere in
7 that vicinity?
8 A. It was quite low, about four or five bricks
9 in height that had been broken.
10 Q. Can we preserve that image as AC144.9? I am
11 going to show you one more photograph after that, which
12 is P205. As you can see, this is an aerial photograph
13 of the car park itself.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. One can see there are a number of low walls
16 in the car park in various different places. You are
17 satisfied, are you, it was not one of those walls that
18 the man was taking cover behind?
19 A. No, it was, to my memory, it was just on the
20 edge of that earthen area, just before you came to the
21 fence, just the extreme bottom of the picture, this
22 one.
23 Q. At any rate, this Englishman shouted that
24 live rounds were being fired?
25 A. That is right, yes.
1 Q. You still thought these were rubber bullets;
2 is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had you at this stage seen any soldiers enter
5 the Bogside?
6 A. No, I had not, no.
7 Q. Had not seen any Army vehicles?
8 A. I could hear them, but I had been running
9 with my back towards them, I had not seen any at that
10 particular point.
11 Q. Can you recollect at all how long you spent
12 behind the wall with the Englishman?
13 A. It is difficult to remember exactly how
14 long. Um, it did not seem too long a time after I had
15 paused after the noise of the shooting stopped or the
16 rubber bullets stopped, then he raised his head up and
17 looked round again. He decided to run. As he ran
18 forward, I ran with him at that particular time. The
19 actual time, it is difficult for me to define at the
20 moment.
21 Q. Would it have been a matter of a few seconds?
22 A. No, more like a minute, that sort of time,
23 a minute or two minutes.
24 Q. Can we go back to AC144.1, please, paragraph
25 5? You say that you ran south across the car park of
1 the Rossville Flats.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You clearly remember Father Daly to your
4 left?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then you heard another six or seven shots.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which again you took to be rubber bullets?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Are you clear, Mr Carlin, that this happened
11 after you had taken shelter behind the wall, or could
12 it have been before?
13 A. I am quite certain it was after that.
14 Q. Can you give any idea, very roughly if
15 necessary, of the sort of number of people who were
16 running through the car park when you and Father Daly
17 were there, was it hundreds or --
18 A. No, it was not, no, it was not hundreds at
19 that point. There was quite a larger crowd of people
20 already over at the -- where the doorway was at the
21 corner of the flats had already been there, but I was
22 aware there were quite a lot more people behind me at
23 that point.
24 Q. If we look at a photograph, please, EP28.5,
25 when you were running through the car park, were there
1 more people than seen here, fewer people or about the
2 same?
3 A. No, there were fewer people than that.
4 Q. Then, after you had run through the car park
5 you went to Free Derry Corner; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we look at paragraph 6 on page AC144.1,
8 you say that when you arrived at Free Derry Corner,
9 Lord Brockway and Bernadette Devlin were both on the
10 platform?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. There were about 100 people listening to the
13 speeches?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Are you saying the speeches were actually in
16 progress when you arrived?
17 A. No, they were on the platform, they were
18 sorta organising people to come round the platform;
19 they were appealing for people already on
20 Rossville Street that were coming towards it, to come
21 towards Free Derry Corner, towards the platform.
22 Obviously there was signs of trouble or rioting in the
23 background and I think they were encouraging people to
24 come away from that towards the platform itself. But
25 actual speeches they had planned were not being -- it
1 was not happening at the time.
2 Q. Are you sure, Mr Carlin, that this was after
3 you had seen Father Daly in the car park?
4 A. Yes, it was, yeah.
5 Q. Father Daly is a very well-known figure, is
6 he not?
7 A. Yes, he is, yeah.
8 Q. Would you have known who he was at the time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Of course, it became very well-known after
11 Bloody Sunday that Father Daly was in the car park at
12 the time when Jack Duddy was shot?
13 A. Yes, it is, yeah.
14 Q. You know that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You did not witness the shooting of Jack
17 Duddy; is that right?
18 A. No, I did not, no.
19 Q. Do you think it is possible at all,
20 Mr Carlin, that you may not in fact have seen
21 Father Daly on that day, but that you imagine you have
22 seen him because you know that he must have been there
23 round about the time when you were there?
24 A. No, he was a very familiar figure in the
25 city, I was quite certain that was him.
1 Q. At any rate you say that when you reached
2 Free Derry Corner Lord Brockway and Bernadette Devlin
3 were calling for calm?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you take that as an indication that they
6 perceived that there was some danger already?
7 A. No, I think what they were intent on doing
8 was to take people away from the riot situation at the
9 northern end of Rossville Street and bring more people
10 towards the platform, to where the speeches were going
11 to be from the platform itself.
12 Q. Do you know whether at that stage they
13 believed that live rounds were being fired?
14 A. No, they obviously did not because, um, then
15 people came saying there were people shot, there were
16 live rounds. I am not sure, someone on the platform
17 said to calm down, "it is only rubber bullets" and that
18 was the sort of attitude they had initially when I got
19 there.
20 Q. You say, moving on to paragraph 7, that while
21 you were listening to the speeches at Free Derry
22 Corner, you heard some more bangs?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And they had a heavier sound?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Which I think you interpreted as shooting,
2 but not as automatic fire; is that right?
3 A. Yes, that is right, yes.
4 Q. At this stage when you heard that shooting,
5 were the speeches in progress by that stage?
6 A. I think Lord Brockway had just begun to speak
7 at that particular time.
8 Q. Did you see whether there were still people
9 in Rossville Street when you heard that shooting?
10 A. There was, there were still quite a number of
11 people at Rossville Street itself.
12 Q. Can you say whether that was 10s of people or
13 100s of people or more or less?
14 A. The same, 10s of people.
15 Q. Could you see specifically what was happening
16 in the area of the rubble barricade when that shooting
17 took place?
18 A. No, no, I was in the crowd just in front of
19 the platform and on looking back and hearing the sound,
20 the sound seemed to come from that direction and
21 looking back I could see people in Rossville Street,
22 but not as far over as the barricade.
23 Q. You tell us in this paragraph that you
24 believed the shooting was coming from Rossville Street
25 and so you lay down by the point marked C on the map?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you say that you could see a sangar on
3 the walls with blue smoke billowing out of the roof?
4 A. Yes, there was -- on that side of Free Derry
5 Corner at the time there was a partly completed roadway
6 and the kerb had been laid with no tarmac, so the kerb
7 was quite high at that point as unfinished roadway, so
8 to me that seemed as some sort of shelter and that is
9 where I lay down. I was lying there facing what would
10 be east and I was looking directly up at the walls at
11 that point.
12 Q. Can I show you a photograph, P471, please?
13 Can I look, before we come to that, at P470?
14 Can you see on this photograph, Mr Carlin,
15 approximately where you were when you were taking
16 cover, just to help you get your bearings --
17 A. I cannot see Free Derry Corner on that
18 photograph.
19 Q. Free Derry Corner, I was going to say would
20 be just off the picture down here?
21 A. If I can draw an arrow, more this way.
22 (Indicating).
23 Q. That corresponds with the position you have
24 indicated on your map?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you indicate roughly where the sangar was
2 that you saw?
3 A. (Marked with red arrow - AC144.10).
4 Q. If we could take off the first two arrows,
5 please, and preserve that image as AC144.10, with the
6 red arrow indicating the position of the sangar.
7 Could we then look at P471, please? Is that
8 the sort of structure, if not the actual structure,
9 that you are talking about when you say that you saw
10 a sangar on the walls?
11 A. Yes, all I could see from the outside of the
12 walls was obviously sandbags and that roof that is
13 there.
14 Q. When you say that smoke was billowing out of
15 the roof, do you actually mean that you saw it coming
16 out of the roof of the sangar or just that you saw
17 smoke in that general area?
18 A. There was smoke actually billowing out as if
19 there was a fire, come out from on the roof and
20 (inaudible) smell.
21 Q. You say you saw a soldier on the right of the
22 sangar looking through binoculars?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it possible he was looking through
25 a periscope such as we see in this photograph?
1 A. It is possible, at the distance I was at you
2 would not be sure. He certainly had his hands up as if
3 he was using some sort of aid at that time.
4 Q. In any event, if he was using either
5 binoculars or a periscope, then that particular soldier
6 cannot have been shooting at the time when you saw him?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You did not see any other soldier fire
9 a weapon from the walls, did you?
10 A. No, the smoke was quite heavy coming out of
11 the sangar so I really could just see shadows of people
12 in it.
13 Q. Did you hear any shooting at the time when
14 you saw this smoke?
15 A. Yes, there was quite a lot of sound of
16 shooting at that point.
17 Q. Did you locate any of that shooting as coming
18 from the walls?
19 A. I just assumed that it was as I was would
20 look in that direction and I could see the smoke coming
21 from it. I could not say it was one direction or the
22 other from the sound at the time.
23 Q. Can we go back, please, to AC144.2,
24 paragraph 8? You say that when you reached the area of
25 the Bogside Inn there were a lot of people milling
1 around and people were saying that people had been shot
2 and asking where the IRA were when they were needed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you yourself either see or hear any sort
5 of paramilitary activity when you were in the area of
6 the Bogside Inn?
7 A. No, in fact people were complaining about the
8 lack of it, they were saying, "Where are the IRA?"
9 There were quite a lot of people about immediately
10 behind the Bogside Inn and I felt sort of there that
11 I was sheltered from any sort of fire from the walls.
12 There was these whole rumours then of two or
13 three people shot at the door of the flats and shot at
14 different places, um, people had said they had seen
15 three people shot dead, others were complaining, "Where
16 are the IRA, what is wrong with them?"
17 Q. You did not see anything at all suspicious or
18 unusual when you were there?
19 A. Certainly not, no.
20 Q. In paragraph 9 you say that you made your way
21 to the Long Tower Church and saw a car coming south
22 from the direction of Rossville Street up Hollywell
23 Street?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. ^ to here I would like to look at that on a
1 map, if I may. Can we have Q3, please? On this map,
2 Mr Carlin, we have the long -- Long Tower Street is
3 marked here and saint Columb's Roman Catholic Church is
4 what is known as the Long Tower Church and
5 Rossville Street is up here just going off the screen
6 at the top and here is Hollywell Street.
7 If the technicians could remove my arrows and
8 then give Mr Carlin control of the screen, would it be
9 possible for you to indicate by drawing two arrows
10 approximately where you were and approximately where
11 this car was when you first saw it?
12 A. Okay, I will draw first where I was. This
13 corner here. (Indicating).
14 Q. Your arrow is just at the corner of Stanley's
15 Walk and Lecky Road?
16 A. It just extends a little bit, so I was on the
17 Lecky Road itself.
18 Q. On Lecky Road near the corner of Stanley's
19 Walk?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Perhaps if you could draw another arrow to
22 indicate where the car was, please?
23 A. Well, the car came along Lecky Road in this
24 direction (indicating) and then turned into here.
25 Q. Did it disappear up Hollywell Street?
1 A. It disappeared up Hollywell Street.
2 Q. You lost sight of it when it went up
3 Hollywell Street?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I do not think we need to preserve that,
6 because we have described your position.
7 Can you remember, Mr Carlin, what sort of car
8 it was?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or what colour it was?
11 A. No, I have thought of it. To me it was
12 a dark car, but I cannot remember exactly what colour
13 it was at all.
14 Q. Or even whether it was a big car or a small
15 car, estate car, saloon car?
16 A. No, a saloon car. I have no recollection of
17 an estate car, it seemed like an ordinary saloon car to
18 me.
19 Q. Could it have been a Ford Cortina?
20 A. It could have been. I say, I have no exact
21 recollection of what the car was at all.
22 Q. You say that the driver was sounding his
23 horn?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the hazard lights were on?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And a man was holding a white flag out of the
3 back?
4 A. Some sort of white flag or sheet or something
5 at that time, at the back door.
6 Q. Could it have been a handkerchief?
7 A. It seemed to me to be larger than that.
8 Q. There were at least three people in the car,
9 the driver, the front seat passenger --
10 A. -- and someone in the back, yes.
11 Q. And the man in the back with the flag. Let
12 us go on to paragraph 10 at AC144.2. You say that
13 about five or six minutes later you came to the top of
14 Barrack Street?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At about the point marked 1 on the map
17 attached as attachment 2.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You say that the car had been stopped by
20 soldiers and you have marked the position of the car as
21 point 2.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can we look, please, at that map, at
24 AC144.8? We have Barrack Street running down the
25 centre of the screen. Here is point 1 to indicate
1 where you were and there is point 2 to indicate where
2 the car was? (Indicating).
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you see any other cars stopped in the
5 vicinity of the car that we have been talking about?
6 A. No, there was not.
7 Q. Did you see any Army barrier across
8 Barrack Street, either near the car or closer to you?
9 A. Well, I was aware there would have been one
10 there, but my complete memory of what I saw at that
11 time was simply about the car with its doors open at
12 that point.
13 Q. Is it possible there was in fact an Army
14 barrier between you and the car?
15 A. Not that I was aware of, no.
16 Q. Or that the car was stopped in fact rather
17 nearer the junction of Barrack Street and Pitt Street,
18 close to an Army barrier?
19 A. Sorry, I cannot see --
20 Q. Pitt Street is here. (Indicating). It is
21 the little street going off to what would have been
22 your left as you looked up Barrack Street?
23 A. I come up Joyce Street and turned round into
24 Charlotte Place and disappeared round the corner. That
25 was quite steep there, from that part up towards
1 barrack itself. To me standing there, I would probably
2 have been visible to them just from about waist high up
3 and looking forward I could see the car up on the
4 left. To me it is the position 2 where I marked, it
5 seemed to be nearer to the junction of Bishop Street.
6 Q. Mr Carlin, the evidence is that there was
7 a barrier across Barrack Street just close to the
8 junction of Pitt Street there. If you were where you
9 say you were and the car was where you say it was, then
10 it would seem that that barrier was between you and the
11 car; does that help you at all to --
12 A. No, I have no recollection of a barrier being
13 there. The image I have simply is a car at the end of
14 the street.
15 Q. Let us go back, then, to paragraph 10, if we
16 may, at AC144.2. You say in that paragraph about the
17 soldiers round the car:
18 "They did not look like the soldiers I was
19 used to seeing on the streets of Derry, or like the
20 Royal Anglian soldier who lived next door to me at the
21 time. They were wearing battle dress, including coarse
22 type netting around their necks. I did not know the
23 regiment of the soldiers, but they looked like the
24 soldiers I had seen on the television who had been at
25 Magilligan Beach the week previously."
1 A. They were wearing the same sort of clothes,
2 except for one of them who was, had seemed the normal
3 sort of uniform they wore around the streets at that
4 time.
5 Q. Are you able to describe what it was that was
6 different about the clothes that they were wearing from
7 the clothes that soldiers you had seen previously had
8 been wearing?
9 A. It seemed to be more of battle dress, sort of
10 camouflage rather than the normal khaki or overalls
11 they wore at that time. They had this very tight
12 collar of a sort of netted material, to me it looked at
13 that point.
14 Q. You say at the end of this paragraph that one
15 of the soldiers was armed with a pistol?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in paragraph 11 that the soldier with the
18 pistol pulled a man with dark hair out of the rear
19 passenger door?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you remember which side of the car the
22 door was that this man was pulled out of?
23 A. It was on the side at the footpath, on the
24 nearer side of the car.
25 Q. On the near side?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And are you sure it was the rear door and not
3 the front door?
4 A. I cannot be sure of that, no.
5 Q. Could you tell whether the man who was pulled
6 out of the car was the same man as had been waving the
7 flag or the sheet or whatever it was earlier on?
8 A. No, I could not.
9 Q. You could not tell either way?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And you say that the soldier held his pistol
12 to the man's head?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And fired two shots?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then you say this at the end of paragraph 11:
17 "It looked to me like an execution?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "But I do not think the shots were fired at
20 the man's head, because I did not see the head move,
21 although I would have expected a movement or some other
22 sign that he had been shot."
23 A. The way it is written there in the statement
24 is slightly different from what I think I said at the
25 actual time.
1 Q. Would you like to describe it in your own
2 words now?
3 A. To me at the time, I thought he had been shot
4 in the head, simple as that to me at the time. But on
5 experience afterwards, obviously it was not, because
6 there would have been more of a reaction of the person
7 who I thought was shot at the time. So it must have
8 been that he was fired not into the head but beside the
9 head or near to the head. But at the time and a long
10 time afterwards, I was quite convinced that he had been
11 shot in the head.
12 Q. Is it possible that the soldier was firing
13 a rubber bullet gun and not a pistol?
14 A. Absolutely not, no. The one image I have on
15 Bloody Sunday is of that particular scene and --
16 Q. Thinking of it now in your mind, can you give
17 us an estimate as to how far away you were when you
18 observed this event?
19 A. About 25 to 30 yards away.
20 Q. 25 to 30 yards?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We can see on the map that Barrack Street is
23 getting on for 100 yards long?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So, could it have been further away than 25
1 to 30 yards?
2 A. To me the car was at the end of the street,
3 I was -- come up a little bit, up the hill towards it.
4 To me it was quite visible from where I was when it
5 happened.
6 Q. Had the man at whom the soldier fired done
7 anything that you could see --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- that might have caused the soldier to
10 fire?
11 A. He was prone -- the soldier was holding him
12 (indicating) if I can put my hand sorta the back of
13 the head like that and he was holding his head up, the
14 body was lying prone out of the back of the car. He
15 had one hand on his head and his right hand had the
16 pistol.
17 Q. As you are describing it you are holding your
18 hand to the back of your head?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. To indicate how he was holding the man?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Had the man attempted to slam the car door
23 into the soldier's face?
24 A. No.
25 Q. He had been trying to escape?
1 A. He did not seem to move to me at all.
2 Q. Did you at any stage see a wounded man in the
3 car?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you see what happened to the man who was
6 pulled out of the car?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. Or to any of the men in the car?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or to the car itself?
11 A. No, as you can see almost at that point
12 I stood there in shock really and then -- the other
13 soldier who was there, he called out, said "There's
14 another yobbo", he says and I looked behind, there was
15 no-one else there, so I assumed he was talking to me
16 and I turned and began to run back down Joyce Street
17 and then I heard two shots -- two pistol shots, the
18 shots were the same noise as the pistol had been used
19 earlier.
20 Q. Can I stop you there, because you describe
21 this in paragraph 12, perhaps we can look at that. It
22 is AC144.3:
23 "One of the other soldiers then called
24 'There's another yobbo'", you assume he is talking
25 about you. Then you say you heard the soldier with a
1 pistol shout "stop, stop"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you tell when you heard that whether he
4 was talking to you or somebody else?
5 A. No, I had my back turned to him by that time.
6 Q. So you could not be sure whether he was
7 talking to you or to somebody else?
8 A. No, I cannot be sure of that, no.
9 Q. He could have been talking to one of the men
10 who had been in the car, for example?
11 A. Well, as I say, I had already been turned and
12 was beginning to make my way back down to
13 Joyce Street. At the time I was not sure. I assumed
14 as the soldiers had said, "There's another yobbo" and
15 I looked around. There was no-one else with me, so it
16 was me he was talking about and I decided to make my
17 way out of the area, having seen what I did see at the
18 time.
19 Q. In any event, you ran off and you heard two
20 more shots as you ran?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You say that you assumed they were fired by
23 the officer because they had the same sound as the
24 sound of the pistol shots?
25 A. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. How confident are you of your ability to
2 distinguish between pistol shots and rifle shots?
3 A. Well, I had just heard two shots of a pistol
4 and then the noise I heard immediately after was
5 exactly the same.
6 Q. Apart from the soldiers, did you see anybody
7 else with a gun when you were in this part of the town?
8 A. No.
9 Q. In paragraph 13 you refer to seeing some
10 soldiers at the Star factory on the Foyle Road?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I would like to identify with you on the
13 photographs where that was. Could we look, please, at
14 P219. That is, as you no doubt recognise, the city
15 side of the Craigavon Bridge and the Foyle Road running
16 across the foreground of the picture. Is the Star
17 factory in that photograph?
18 A. No, it is not.
19 Q. In which direction is it?
20 A. To the left from, further along the
21 Foyle Road.
22 Q. Can we try P218, please?
23 A. No, it is even further to the left of that.
24 Q. Or P217. Do you see the Star factory there?
25 A. No.
1 Q. It may be we do not have a photograph that
2 shows it well. I will leave that. You say in that
3 paragraph of your statement that you recognised the
4 Royal Anglian insignia on the berets of these soldiers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you describe what that insignia consisted
7 of?
8 A. Not at the moment, it is --
9 Q. Did you know at the time?
10 A. Yes, where I lived at the time there were
11 soldiers staying in an apartment or beside us, I was
12 quite friendly with them, I knew them, they were Royal
13 Anglians. Often they came -- immediately after patrol
14 they came to that area and the sort of khaki hat they
15 wore and the badge was quite familiar to me at the
16 time.
17 Q. Finally, Mr Carlin, can we go to paragraph 14
18 at AC144.3? You say that in the evening you saw some
19 soldiers on Craigavon Bridge?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who were calling out abuse and throwing beer
22 cans and you assumed that they were paratroopers
23 because they seemed to be celebrating?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And they were dressed like soldiers you had
1 seen on the television reports of the events at
2 Magilligan?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you agree that, despite that,
5 Mr Carlin, you are not in a position to be sure that
6 those soldiers were paratroopers?
7 A. Well, they were -- none of them had any
8 berets on, I just assumed that as they were celebrating
9 and the type of vehicle they were in was a little
10 unusual in Derry at the time, they were not in Pigs,
11 they were in the squatter, wider Saracens and, um, they
12 were obviously in a celebratory mood. I just assumed
13 what they wore or what they were wearing at the time,
14 what I had seen earlier in the day, that they were from
15 the Parachute Regiment.
16 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
17 Questioned by MR CLARKE
18 MR CLARKE: Mr Carlin, I appear on behalf of
19 a number of the soldiers. My name is Peter Clarke.
20 Three headings, please: firstly, as far as
21 you remember, in your best recollection, you are
22 running across the Rossville car park when firing is
23 taking place?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Father Daly, as he then was, is alongside
1 you?
2 A. He was to my left.
3 Q. You go through which gap, the block 1/2 gap
4 or the block 2/3 gap, if you understand my description?
5 A. No, I do not. I could point it out exactly
6 where.
7 Q. Very well, yes. Would you prefer
8 a photograph or a map, sir?
9 A. A map.
10 Q. If we could have the map at the end of your
11 statement, that would do well, it is AC144.7. Take
12 a moment, Mr Carlin, dead centre of the map, you see
13 the three blocks?
14 A. Yes, I just come through here. (Marked with
15 blue arrow).
16 Q. The block between 1 and 2.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Crowded, that gap?
19 A. It was, there were quite a number of people
20 in the, in between the two blocks itself.
21 Q. When you get through, your firm recollection
22 is that Bernadette Devlin and Lord Fenner Brockway are
23 still addressing the gathering?
24 A. When I got to Free Derry Corner, they were on
25 the platform, yes.
1 Q. And still speaking through the public address
2 system or megaphone?
3 A. As I said, they were encouraging people to
4 come towards Free Derry Corner and come away from what
5 appeared to be the riot behind them.
6 Q. People were complying with that request?
7 A. Quite a number were, yes.
8 Q. And moving south.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At a measured pace?
11 A. Some people were running, others were
12 walking. Once I got through into this area of
13 Joseph Place and quite near to Free Derry Corner, I had
14 slowed down and began to walk towards it because there
15 were people milling about there, facing the platform at
16 the time.
17 Q. You say "some running". Can I infer from
18 that that some were just walking?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Quite calmly?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr Carlin, you are sure you are not, as it
23 were, standing this part of events on their head
24 a bit. Was Bernadette Devlin not addressing people and
25 Lord Brockway getting to his feet before any shooting
1 started?
2 A. That is just what I have said. I went there,
3 Bernadette was encouraging people to come towards the
4 platform. Lord Brockway had not begun any speech at
5 the time. They were encouraging more people to come to
6 that. It was just as they started to speak really that
7 there was -- people began to run, shout and panic that
8 there was shooting.
9 Q. You had already been running through the car
10 park, had you not, escaping?
11 A. That was quite a lot further north and I had
12 noticed the riot had begun there in William Street and
13 had come through the gap in the buildings and I had
14 come through there. I was intent on getting away from
15 a riot situation, that was why I was running.
16 Q. It is my responsibility, Mr Carlin, entirely,
17 I am asking questions, but could you ensure that the
18 stenographer can hear you as well as I am hearing you?
19 A. That is fine.
20 Q. If you could move a little closer to the
21 microphone? I am sorry to interrupt you.
22 A. As I say, the reason I was running through
23 the square immediately was to get away from any riot
24 situation, I was not wanting to be involved in that.
25 It was not any particular danger perceived by me at
1 that time.
2 Q. I am not going to dwell on that. The second
3 matter I want your assistance with, please: you do not
4 remember the model of car flying the white flag from
5 the rear window?
6 A. No, I have tried to remember. To me it had
7 a dark appearance.
8 Q. Dark appearance?
9 A. And it was a saloon car, it was not in any
10 way, in my recollection, that it seemed to be an estate
11 car.
12 Q. With hazard lights?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In -- I am not suggesting no cars had hazard
15 lights, but in 1972, a mid 60s model car, do you
16 remember --
17 A. I do not remember what model it was.
18 Q. You actually remember hazard lights on?
19 A. I was standing looking, the car was blowing
20 the horn, they had hazard lights flashing, yes.
21 Q. The reason I am asking, sir, what I have to
22 put to you is that no pistol was fired at barrier 20 at
23 all?
24 A. As I said already, the enduring memory I have
25 of Bloody Sunday is of that particular scene.
1 Q. And there were -- sorry to interrupt, go
2 ahead?
3 A. I am absolutely certain there were shots
4 fired in that manner at that time. I was certain there
5 were shots fired in that manner at that time.
6 Q. Pistol shots within inches of a man's head?
7 A. To me, yes. I assumed immediately that he
8 had been shot in the head.
9 Q. Because there came a time when you realised
10 it could not have been, because this has not been
11 reported and I must have been mistaken about the
12 execution?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When did that occur to you?
15 A. Quite a long time afterwards. As I said,
16 I have no experience of the shooting or people being
17 shot. I assumed seeing what I saw that he had been
18 shot in the head. Afterwards what I saw and heard,
19 other things happening, somebody shot in the head at
20 that range there would have been a reaction in the
21 body, that did not happen at the time.
22 Q. You have obviously become aware also,
23 I suggest, that nobody else in the whole of this city
24 --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- has any recollection of that occurring?
2 A. That is true. As I say, I worked with quite
3 a number of people, and worked after Bloody Sunday,
4 worked with people who were at the incident itself.
5 No-one else I spoke to was in -- had seen that
6 particular incidence or heard of it.
7 Q. In addition to that, I suggest that on all
8 the information available to the Tribunal, as we have
9 heard?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There were three cars at that barrier. There
12 was a Humber and two Cortinas, does that jog your
13 memory?
14 A. No, not in any way different, no.
15 Q. There was an incident with soldiers and the
16 occupants of the vehicles and certainly it would seem
17 a rubber bullet gun was fired and later Army rifles
18 were fired because there was an incident involving
19 snipers, but that was a bit later?
20 A. As I said, as soon as I saw what I believe
21 happened at the time and heard the shout they made and
22 a gesture towards me, I ran back down Joyce Street at
23 the time. To me, my recollection, I can still only
24 remember one car being there at the time.
25 Q. Your assumption?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Because of course you had your back turned as
3 you were running away?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that the soldier with the pistol fires
6 after you?
7 A. Yes, it was -- there were two shouts of
8 "stop, stop" and, um, what I call a cultured English
9 accent. That normally would have been associated with
10 officers here. When I heard "stop, stop", I assumed it
11 was the officer who I had seen fire the pistol was
12 shouting to me and when I heard two shots my assumption
13 was he was firing at me.
14 Q. No-one else in sight who could be being
15 required to stop, it had to be you?
16 A. It had to be me, yes.
17 Q. Thirdly, can I just ask you about the Saracen
18 with the beer-swilling soldiers?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What I have to put to you is: by the time of
21 evening that you are talking of, all Parachute Regiment
22 soldiers were back at barracks in some shape or form in
23 this city?
24 A. As I said, my parents had been at the march.
25 I was concerned about them, they lived across the
1 Bridge on the Waterside. I had been in the house.
2 There were news reports at 6 o'clock of a number of
3 people being killed. We listened for further news
4 bulletins. We then decided, as neither my parents nor
5 myself had telephones, we decided to check if they were
6 safe and well. We made our way across the Bridge.
7 That would have been around about quarter to 8,
8 8 o'clock at the time.
9 Q. Mr Carlin, I have a duty to suggest to you
10 that those three events that you have described to us
11 may have been incidents at which various people were
12 present, but they did not happen with the detail that
13 you have described at all?
14 A. As I said to the -- the image I have in my
15 mind of what happened that day was about the shooting
16 in Barrack Street and it stayed with me and has stayed
17 with me ever since that time.
18 Q. Thank you, sir.
19 MR ROXBURGH: Sir, I have no further
20 questions.
21 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Carlin, it is the Chairman
22 speaking to you, thank you very much indeed for coming
23 to assist the Inquiry.
24 (The witness withdrew)
25 LORD SAVILLE: We have got to 2.40. Our next
1 witness is Mr Greene, but my estimate would be that he
2 would take substantially longer than 20 minutes.
3 MR ROXBURGH: I think that is fair.
4 LORD SAVILLE: We have to rise at 3.00. I am
5 aware of the fact that he is, I think, going away on
6 Sunday for a couple of weeks. I think on the whole the
7 best thing to do is to put it over to another day.
8 I do not know whether the situation has been explained
9 to Mr Greene, I hope it has?
10 MR ROXBURGH: I think it is in the course of
11 being explained to him, or will be explained to him.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Give him our apologies, but
13 tell him, as is the case, that we do our best to get
14 the estimates of time right, but it is a very difficult
15 job.
16 You are there yourself, Mr Greene. If you
17 look here, you can see who is speaking to you. I am
18 the Chairman of the Tribunal. I was just saying, we
19 have got to 2.40, we have to stop at 3.00. I think we
20 are going to have to put your evidence off for another
21 day. I know you are going away, so we will try and fit
22 another time in at your convenience.
23 I am very sorry indeed you have been kept
24 hanging around today. You will appreciate we try to do
25 our best with estimating how long witnesses will take.
1 It is a very difficult job to get it right. If we
2 could fit in another day at your convenience when you
3 get back, we would be very grateful. Thank you very
4 much indeed. Again, my apologies for keeping you
5 waiting today.
6 MR ROXBURGH: Sir, perhaps I could read out
7 the list of witnesses for Monday -- it has been
8 distributed, perhaps there is no need to read it out.
9 LORD SAVILLE: There is no change?
10 MR ROXBURGH: And there is no change.
11 LORD SAVILLE: We will come back to this at
12 9.30 on Monday morning.
13 (2.43 pm)
14 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am
15 on Monday, 9th September 2001)
16 MR JACK NASH, sworn.................................. 2
17 Questioned by MR CLARKE.............................. 2
18 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD.......................... 22
19 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 24
20 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 40
21 MR JIM O'MAHONEY, sworn............................. 43
22 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY............................ 43
23 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD.......................... 58
24 Questioned by MR P CLARKE........................... 59
25 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN....................... 64
1 MR ROBERT WHITE, affirmed........................... 66
2 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 66
3 Questioned by MR MACDONALD.......................... 85
4 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 91
5 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 117
6 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................ 119
7 MR PAUL McGREADY, sworn............................ 122
8 Questioned by MS McGAHEY........................... 122
9 Questioned by MR MACDONALD......................... 133
10 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................ 137
11 MR THOMAS CARLIN, sworn............................ 143
12 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH.......................... 143
13 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................ 173