1 Friday, 23rd March 2001
2 (9.30 am)
3 MS AGNES McGUINNESS, sworn
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE
5 LORD SAVILLE: Ms McGuinness, if you look to
6 your right you will see who is talking to you. The
7 questions will be put by the barristers who sit in
8 front of me. I am the Chairman of the Tribunal. All
9 I would ask you to do at the moment, please, is try and
10 keep your face fairly close to that microphone in front
11 of you, more or less as it is at the moment, and then
12 everybody will be able to hear what you have to say.
13 MR CLARKE: Ms McGuinness, do you have with
14 you your statement to this Tribunal of 3rd July 1999?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
17 the best of your knowledge and belief?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I would like, if I may, to ask you a few
20 questions about it. In paragraph 4 you refer to the
21 statement which is attached to your statement to this
22 Tribunal and you say that you have no recollection of
23 making or signing the statement, but you recognise the
24 contents as roughly being "my experiences of the day".
25 Can we take it that although you have no
1 recollection of it, it is a statement that you made
2 very close to Bloody Sunday?
3 A. Yes, you can.
4 Q. May we come to paragraphs 5 to 7 on the same
5 page. You describe to us there how your first
6 recollection of the day is being on the oval grassed
7 area to the north of Free Derry Corner at a time when
8 the area was packed with people; is that right?
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. You then remember being at the position that
11 you have marked as A on your plan. Could we have
12 a look at that plan on the screen at AM276.11. We can
13 see it is just to the south of what we call block 1,
14 the block that looks on to Rossville Street; is that
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That is where you recall being?
18 A. Yes, that is right.
19 Q. Let us go back to the statement at AM276.1,
20 paragraph 7. You describe how you recall rubber
21 bullets being fired and having the impression that they
22 were being fired from the north end of Rossville Street
23 and when you heard them you ran the remainder of the
24 way to get into the entrance to the flats; is that
25 right?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. Do you have any recollection now of being
3 conscious at this stage, either of any soldiers being
4 in the Bogside or any army vehicles being in the
5 Bogside?
6 A. Not in my vision, not in my line of vision.
7 Q. But there was a crowd of you, as you
8 describe, who began to surge towards the alleyway
9 between the two blocks 1 and 2; is that right?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. You and Phyllis Brown, who you were with,
12 decided to go to her grandmother's, is that right?
13 A. Mrs Gill.
14 Q. If we go to AM276.6 and look at the first
15 three paragraphs of your 1972 statement, we can see in
16 the second paragraph in the third line, the second
17 sentence, that what you said then was this:
18 "My friend and I decided to go to my friend's
19 grandmother's, who lived on the eighth floor of the
20 Rossville Flats, the block above the shops."
21 So I think your recollection that the flat
22 was near to the top of the block is confirmed by what
23 you said in 1972; is that right?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. Can we just look at the previous paragraph
1 whilst we have it on the page. What you said was this:
2 "I was on the civil rights march which
3 proceeded to Southway, then to William Street. I was
4 unaware of any activity until the tear gas came from
5 the army located at the City Cinema in William Street,
6 plus rubber bullets from the Little James Street
7 direction. When they fired the tear gas, the crowd
8 scattered and went as far as I could see in the
9 direction of Rossville Flats."
10 That tends to suggest that you had got to
11 near the City Cinema at the east end of William Street
12 and as a result of tear gas being fired and a crowd
13 scattering, you then decided to go to your friend's
14 grandmother's. If that was the sequence it would not
15 bring you out to the oval grassed area above Free Derry
16 Corner.
17 Looking at what you wrote or what was written
18 for you in 1972, does that bring back any recollection
19 of your movements on that day before you went to
20 Mrs Gill's?
21 A. I do not remember if I came down
22 William Street or came down from the Southway
23 direction.
24 Q. But you have a recollection, do you, of being
25 to the south of block 2, to Free Derry Corner and the
1 grassed area there?
2 A. Very much so, yeah.
3 Q. May we then go to paragraphs 8 to 10 on the
4 next page, AM276.2. You describe there being in
5 Mrs Gill's flat and in paragraph 9 you refer to having
6 a clear memory of standing at a window looking north
7 into the car park and up Chamberlain Street and you say
8 that you think that all three of you were watching what
9 was going on in the car park; is that right?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. You refer in the next paragraph to a vivid
12 recollection of seeing one particular soldier. Before
13 we come to that, do you have any recollection now of
14 what appeared to be going on in the car park when you
15 looked at it from the window of the flat at the top of
16 the Rossville Flats?
17 A. Just a recollection that it was busy, there
18 was a lot of things going on, I do not remember
19 anything in particular with any clarity.
20 Q. Do you recollect there being any army vehicle
21 or vehicles?
22 A. Vaguely.
23 Q. Do you have a recollection of where they
24 were?
25 A. No, not really.
1 Q. You describe, and could we have on the screen
2 paragraphs 10 to 14, having a vivid recollection of
3 seeing one particular soldier standing right in the
4 middle of the car park who then stepped forward and
5 deliberately knelt down on one knee, apparently facing
6 the middle of block 2; is that right?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. You say in the middle of paragraph 11, that:
9 "He was armed with a rifle which he was
10 holding at chest height and with which he appeared to
11 be taking aim."
12 Do you recall how he was holding it?
13 A. I do not remember which hand he held it with,
14 or -- I just remember that he held it, um, deliberately
15 looking through the sight, it was aimed.
16 Q. Did he appear to have the butt to his
17 shoulder?
18 A. Yes, yeah.
19 Q. You describe in paragraph 12 how the soldier
20 appeared to make a deliberate aim in a particular
21 direction and in paragraph 14 how you heard a shot ring
22 out, which was the first live shot you had heard during
23 that day; is that right?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Had you heard the sound of rubber bullets
1 before then?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where were you when you had heard that?
4 A. I was at the entrance to the flats at -- or
5 approaching there, roughly that direction.
6 Q. You say in the second sentence of paragraph
7 14 that you do not recall seeing a kick-back from the
8 soldier's rifle, but you are sure that it was he who
9 fired. If you did not see the kick-back, what was it
10 that makes you sure that it was he who fired?
11 A. I do not know now, but I was sure at the
12 time.
13 Q. If we go over the page, at paragraphs 15 and
14 16, you describe there how you do not now have a very
15 clear recollection of anything else going on, but have
16 a vague recollection of people being in the car park
17 and there may also have been other soldiers, but you
18 cannot clearly remember; is that right?
19 A. That is right.
20 Q. But you have a vague recollection of army
21 vehicles on the waste ground on the east side of
22 Rossville Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could we go to your 1972 statement, AM276.6
25 and look at the fourth paragraph and remind ourselves
1 what you said there:
2 "My friend (Phyllis Brown), her grandmother
3 (Mrs Gill) and I were in the flat about five to ten
4 minutes when we seen the army coming from the
5 William Street area. They jumped out of the Saracens
6 and started grabbing people in the crowd."
7 Any recollection of that now?
8 A. Not now, no.
9 Q. "A soldier grabbed a man in the waste ground
10 near Chamberlain Street. He was running away from the
11 army. A soldier started to beat him over the head with
12 a rifle."
13 Do you have any recollection of that?
14 A. Not now, no.
15 Q. "The next thing I seen the man was on the
16 ground very still near the army Saracens. The army
17 then grabbed another man and pulled him into the
18 Saracens. We ran to the other side of the flat, but
19 just before we did so, we saw the army open fire,
20 shooting into the crowd. The crowd were running
21 towards Joseph Place. At this stage we saw out the
22 opposite way looking towards the car park behind the
23 flats, a man holding his leg as if he was in pain,
24 presumed shot."
25 Do you have any recollection of seeing a man
1 holding his leg as if he was in pain?
2 A. Not at this point in time, no.
3 Q. If we go back to AM276.3, paragraphs 17 to
4 20. You describe there how your next clear
5 recollection is looking from the other side of the flat
6 and you recall there was a low wall running parallel to
7 the eastern wall of Joseph Place, at the north end of
8 which there was a man lying on the ground?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can I make sure that we know which is the
13 wall to which you are referring? Could we have on the
14 screen photograph P323? Ignore the men in the
15 photograph. The feature that is shown is the wall of
16 the garden of the Joseph Place houses, the steps that
17 lead up to Fahan Street are there and these are the
18 stanchions that support the walkway that leads into
19 Joseph Place. We know that behind Joseph Place there
20 is an alleyway. In this picture this man is coming out
21 of it. (Indicating). Is the wall to which you are
22 referring on this photograph?
23 A. Could I have a picture that takes in a bit
24 more of the area?
25 Q. Yes --
1 A. Or that particular area.
2 Q. Could we have photograph P764? Ignore the
3 gentleman who appears in the photograph. That is
4 a contemporary photograph, taken a couple of years ago,
5 of the same scene. Does that help you?
6 A. No, could you zoom out another bit?
7 Q. I beg your pardon?
8 A. Could you zoom out another bit?
9 LORD SAVILLE: There is a photograph which
10 looks east which encompasses the whole block, it is
11 a much larger picture altogether.
12 MR CLARKE: Could we have P204?
13 A. You see, I think it was that part behind that
14 man, but I need to see more of Joseph Place, please.
15 I see, right. Okay, that is fine.
16 Q. Does that help you to identify where the wall
17 was that you are talking about?
18 A. I think it was just here.
19 Q. Can we set up the machine so that
20 Ms McGuinness can point.
21 A. It is so long ago. I think it was just in
22 front of this car park, behind, I think, although that
23 seems a bit far up, you know. (Marked with blue
24 arrow).
25 Q. Sorry, I did not hear what you said?
1 A. It seems a bit far up from the front. Yeah,
2 I think it was around there, no, let us see, maybe this
3 one around here. (Marked with pink arrow). I am not
4 really sure to look at that photograph, to be quite
5 honest. It was around this area anyway, there was
6 a wee -- when you are looking down at it, it is
7 different, this is not really looking from that angle,
8 you know, from where I was. Yeah, I think this was it,
9 okay. (Marked with red arrow).
10 Q. Where the red arrow is?
11 A. Where the red arrow is, around that area.
12 Q. For the transcript, that is around the area
13 close to the alleyway at the back of Joseph Place.
14 If we go back to AM276.3, paragraphs 17 to
15 20, you describe there how you recall that at the north
16 end of the wall there was a man lying on the ground
17 very close to the wall, lying very still with his face
18 closest to you, lying on his back, with his hands to
19 the side; is that right?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. Could we have on the screen a photograph
22 P717. This is a photograph taken on the day. It is
23 taken at ground level. What it is looking towards is
24 the gable end of Joseph Place, which is there; the wall
25 of the garden which is there; the entrance to the
1 alleyway which is on the left, and again the two sets
2 of stanchions in the middle of the photograph.
3 (Indicating).
4 We can see in this photograph a man lying on
5 his back with his hands at his side and he is
6 approximately in line with the entrance to the
7 alleyway.
8 Looking at that photograph, does that bring
9 back any memories?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. You think that may be the person?
12 A. I think that is the person, uh-huh.
13 Q. If we go back to AM276.3, paragraphs 20 and
14 21, you describe there how you could see a group of
15 people sheltering behind the low wall which runs
16 parallel to the east side of Joseph Place. That is the
17 low wall of the alleyway behind Joseph Place; is that
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You say that:
21 "They were looking towards the city walls to
22 the east and were waving white hankies at the wall."
23 A. Mmm.
24 Q. You saw them do that, did you?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. You say that you did not hear or see shooting
2 from the walls, but got the impression from what these
3 people were doing that there was some threat from that
4 direction; is that right?
5 A. I did, yes.
6 Q. You say that you also got the impression that
7 the people wanted to reach the man that you had seen,
8 but seemed scared to move any further?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You say:
11 "I am certain that one or more of this group
12 did eventually reach the body."
13 Do you have a recollection of seeing one of
14 the group go out?
15 A. Yeah, vaguely at this point in time, but I do
16 not remember, you know, exactly that somebody did reach
17 the person.
18 Q. You have that in your mind's eye, have you?
19 A. Yeah, yeah.
20 Q. You then say that you recall a group of three
21 or four men coming down the steps and there being
22 a priest in the group; is that right?
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. You say it could have been Father Bradley.
25 I think it probably was not, in the light of
1 Father Bradley's evidence, but you could not clearly
2 see who it was anyway?
3 A. No, I could not.
4 Q. If we go to paragraphs 22 and 23 on the next
5 page, you describe how the group who came down the
6 steps were all looking over their shoulders towards the
7 city walls and one or more of this group were waving
8 white hankies, is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You then say in paragraph 23 that you became
11 specifically aware of gunfire coming from the walls and
12 there seemed to be specific shots fired in sequence.
13 When you say that you became aware, can you
14 tell us how you became aware?
15 A. I think it was because of the actions of the
16 people in the alleyway, I became more focused then on
17 where the gunfire was coming from and then I knew it
18 was coming from the walls.
19 Q. Did you hear the gunfire?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. From sound alone were you able to tell where
22 it appeared to be coming from?
23 A. I am sure it was a mixture of people's
24 reactions and sound, although I usually could tell
25 where shots were coming from, having been caught in
1 gunfire at various times.
2 Q. And the actions of the people where what?
3 A. Their awareness of shots coming from the
4 direction of the walls, rather than anywhere else.
5 Q. Could we now go to AM276.6. May we look at
6 the last paragraph in that statement. Just look at
7 your recollection as expressed at the time. You said
8 this:
9 "Just after this [that is after you had seen
10 somebody presumed shot in the car park] we saw men
11 crawling along the wall in front of the shop at
12 Joseph Place. They were protecting themselves because
13 the army were firing from the army posts in the
14 walls."
15 Do you think that the reference to "crawling
16 along the small wall in front of the shop at
17 Joseph Place" is in fact a reference to the wall at the
18 back of the Joseph Place houses?
19 A. I am sorry?
20 Q. There is a reference in your statement we are
21 just looking at, to seeing men crawling along the small
22 wall in front of the shop at Joseph Place?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you think that that may have been intended
25 as a reference to the small wall at the alleyway behind
1 the Joseph Place flats?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. "They were protecting themselves because the
4 army were firing from the army posts in the walls. We
5 then saw a few men dragging a body along at the same
6 place."
7 Do you have any recollection now of men
8 dragging a body?
9 A. No, not at this point in time, no.
10 Q. "We looked down on the ground directly below
11 in front of the shops and we saw another body lying on
12 the ground very white and very still. One of the men
13 using the small wall as protection came back and tried
14 to reach the man lying in front of the shops."
15 You have a recollection of something like
16 that happening?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "He tried several times to reach him but was
19 forced back because of the shots coming from the
20 walls."
21 Do you have any recollection now of more than
22 one attempt being made and the man being forced back?
23 A. It is very mixed up, you know, details are
24 mixed up, it is ...
25 Q. "He finally reached the lying man and took
1 his pulse and examined him. At this stage two or three
2 people came over also. They were waving
3 handkerchiefs. The firing paused at this stage and
4 about 15 minutes the ambulance arrived."
5 You have a recollection now of people waving
6 handkerchiefs?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But not, I think, of the person who came to
9 the man taking his pulse?
10 A. No.
11 MR CLARKE: Thank you very much.
12 Questioned by MR LAWSON
13 MR LAWSON: Ms McGuinness, my name is Lawson,
14 I represent quite a lot of the soldiers. I have some
15 questions for you, please, and would seek your
16 assistance.
17 In your statement -- we need not look at it
18 for this purpose -- you referred to going with your
19 friend Phyllis Brown to the march, right?
20 A. Yes, that is right.
21 Q. That is Phyllis McClaren as now is, is it
22 not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You observed the events from the flat out of
25 the window with her?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I will come back to that, if I may, a little
3 later. Do you recall, I wonder, before going into
4 Mrs Gill's flat, meeting up with John Young?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And indeed introducing Mrs McClaren to him?
7 A. No, no, I do not remember that.
8 Q. No memory of that at all?
9 A. It is possible that it happened.
10 Q. But no memory?
11 A. But no memory.
12 Q. It is an awful long while ago, of course.
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. Can you go to what you describe in your
15 statement about what you saw from the flat and look at
16 AM276.2, please? Could we perhaps highlight paragraph
17 9 first? There you say, do you not, at the end of that
18 paragraph, that:
19 "All three of us [that is you, Mrs Gill and
20 your friend Phyllis] were watching what was going on in
21 the car park."
22 A. To the best of my recollection, yeah.
23 Q. Just to remind you, I think you have a hard
24 copy in front of you anyway, because I do not in any
25 way wish to disadvantage you. For the rest of this
1 page of your statement, you are describing your vivid
2 recollection of seeing a particular soldier in the car
3 park?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that right?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. And it appears to be the position,
8 Mrs McGuinness, is it, that that is the only event in
9 the car park of which you have a clear recollection?
10 A. It is the only one that stands out vividly,
11 everything else is a sort of a jumble. There is
12 nothing that I can particularly remember except that,
13 aye.
14 Q. So you have only the vaguest recollection of
15 army vehicles being in the vicinity?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Do you have any recollection of seeing
18 soldiers jumping out of a Saracen, a Pig?
19 A. No.
20 Q. None at all?
21 A. (Witness shaking head).
22 Q. Do you have any recollection of a soldier or
23 soldiers in the car park chasing after and catching
24 a man?
25 A. Vaguely.
1 Q. That you do recall vaguely?
2 A. Very, very vague. I would not even call it
3 a memory.
4 Q. Because it was one of the topics, was it not,
5 that you referred to in your 1972 statement?
6 A. Mmm.
7 Q. But of which now you only have the vaguest of
8 recollection, is that right?
9 A. I would not even call it a recollection.
10 Q. Mrs McGuinness, do understand that I am not
11 in any way suggesting that you are doing anything other
12 than doing your very best to tell us the truth?
13 A. Yes, I understand that.
14 Q. I owe you an apology, I have been addressing
15 you as Mrs, it is Miss, is it?
16 A. That is irrelevant.
17 Q. The only matter of which you now have a vivid
18 or clear recollection within the car park, that is of
19 a soldier on his knee, aiming not at the crowd
20 apparently, but aiming at the centre of block 2; that
21 is your recollection.
22 A. Yes, because I could not see, I could just
23 see him aiming at the centre of block 2, I could not
24 see from where I was if there was a particular person
25 or a crowd that he was aiming at.
1 Q. But he did not appear, at least in your
2 mind's eye, the picture you can see now, he did not
3 appear to be aiming at the people who were trying to
4 get out through blocks 1 and 2 exit?
5 A. I could not see the people.
6 Q. You could not see it?
7 A. From my point I could see a soldier, and that
8 is an isolated image.
9 Q. Apparently aiming at the centre of the block?
10 A. Yes, apparently.
11 Q. You have been reminded, Ms McGuinness,
12 forgive me if I do so again, of your 1972 account.
13 I know you do not remember making it, but I think you
14 accept this was an account you gave. Can we have it on
15 the screen again, AM276.6, please. Can we highlight
16 the fourth paragraph. Just remind yourself of what is
17 there, because this is the only passage in your 1972
18 statement that is dealing specifically with events in
19 the car park, right. This includes the account, does
20 it not, of soldiers grabbing people, having jumped out
21 of a Saracen?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Of which you have only a vague recollection
24 now?
25 A. Yes, that is right.
1 Q. And of one of the soldiers beating somebody,
2 grabbing another man, as we see, and then the reference
3 to firing is, as you can see, towards the end of that
4 passage:
5 "We ran to the other side of the flat, but
6 just before we did so, we saw the army open fire,
7 shooting into the crowd."
8 A. Yeah, I do not recollect any of that at this
9 point in time.
10 Q. What seems, in 1972, Ms McGuinness, to be the
11 position, is that you did not at that stage, did you,
12 have a clear or indeed any recollection of this single
13 soldier in a kneeling position firing into the middle
14 of block 2?
15 A. Oh, that is a very vivid memory, yeah.
16 Q. It is a very vivid memory to you now, but it
17 does not appear it was, does it, at the time you made
18 the statement a few days later. I assume it was a few
19 days later?
20 A. No, it does not appear that way, but, um, it
21 is now. I have probably since remembered it.
22 Q. As you have such a vivid recollection of it
23 now, I appreciate.
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Do you not think in the light of what you
1 said plainly in 1972 that in fact your vivid
2 recollection may be wrong?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You are quite convinced it is right?
5 A. Oh, yes, aye. I even remember feeling, or
6 thinking, you know, that is -- that they were using
7 live ammunition rather than rubber bullets. I remember
8 thinking this is a real gun they are using, it is not
9 rubber bullets.
10 Q. It is probably asking you far too much, it is
11 so long ago: did you mention this at the time to
12 Phyllis, did you say anything to her about it?
13 A. I have not actually spoken to Phyllis about
14 it. I did speak to her and say that I had, um, come to
15 make a statement and that her name was mentioned should
16 they approach her, but I did not have any great contact
17 with anybody about this.
18 Q. I wondered if you said anything at the time
19 to her?
20 A. I do not remember.
21 Q. You probably do not remember?
22 A. Possibly, I think I may have remarked, I do
23 not know.
24 Q. I wonder if you could help the Tribunal in
25 this way, because Mrs McClaren has indeed made
1 a statement to the Inquiry and, like you, made one in
2 1972. Her evidence is going to be read, or has been
3 read by the Inquiry and the interested parties. It
4 might be helpful just to see if any of this rings any
5 bells with you, if I show you a part of her statement,
6 do you mind?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Could we have on the screen AM313.4.
9 At the bottom of that page -- certainly if
10 anyone wishes to refer to any other passage, of course
11 I will. At the bottom of that page she starts to
12 describe what she saw from the bedroom of the flat,
13 that is overlooking the courtyard, is it not, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Previously she had been describing -- so I am
16 not hiding anything -- she had been describing what she
17 had seen from the other side of the flat. She refers
18 to, as you see in paragraph 20, to the:
19 "... abiding memory of the area looking like
20 a war zone, dusty, a lot of rubble lying around and
21 people were running through the courtyard."
22 Whether you would use those exact words, it
23 was certainly very busy out there, as you recall?
24 A. I recall busyness, yes.
25 Q. Then she refers to about three Saracens
1 travelling south into the waste ground from the east
2 side of Rossville Street north of the courtyard. They
3 seem to have veered off Rossville Street and appeared
4 to be chasing the crowd. That I think you have no
5 actual recollection of?
6 A. (Witness shaking head).
7 Q. Is that right?
8 A. No actual recollection, no.
9 Q. She describes one coming into the courtyard
10 and then says:
11 "Some soldiers burst out of the Saracens
12 I could see on the waste ground and in the courtyard
13 ... wore uniforms, carried rifles. I cannot go into
14 any more details. I was concentrating on a group of
15 about four. One of them ran into the courtyard chasing
16 the fleeing crowd and in particular a man in his early
17 20s. Two of them got down on one knee and aimed their
18 rifles at the fleeing crowd."
19 How does that accord with your own
20 recollection?
21 A. It is possible, it is just, you know, in my
22 mind I can only see what this one soldier did, but ...
23 Q. She then goes on to describe in the next two
24 paragraphs, I do not need to read it out, what happened
25 with the man being chased and being hit by the soldier
1 and the second soldier coming along and pulling him
2 back and that, I think you agree, may well be right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Because it was similar but not identical to
5 it, one would not expect it to be, to what you said in
6 1972, is it not?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Then she was looking at, she says a group of
9 people who were huddled at what she describes at
10 point H, which was over on the other side of the
11 courtyard and to hearing some shooting, although she
12 was not sure where the shooting was coming from. But
13 she does not, as you see there, and I hope I have
14 accurately represented and summarised it, she does not
15 appear herself to have any recollection of any
16 individual soldier actually firing in the courtyard.
17 I wonder if that causes you to doubt whether your vivid
18 recollection is in fact correct?
19 A. No, it does not, no.
20 Q. It does not?
21 A. No, it is possible our memories and the
22 emotional circumstances at the time contributed to
23 whatever memories we have.
24 Q. I should for completeness say that in
25 relation to Mrs McClaren, as she now is, I said she had
1 made a 1972 statement, so that you can see it, it is
2 AM313.8. It is a very short statement, in the first
3 substantial paragraph of which she is referring to what
4 she could see looking out of the front window, so to
5 speak, and in the second, the first of looking out of
6 the back window and seeing a man running being chased
7 by a number of soldiers who hit him and dragged him
8 back to the Saracen. Nothing about any shooting
9 there. I presume that you still adhere to your vivid
10 recollection?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Could I just ask you, please, about one other
13 aspect of your evidence which concerns the body that
14 you saw when you looked out of the front of the flat.
15 If you would like to be reminded, AM276.3, paragraph 17
16 to 19 inclusive, please. You were asked, were you not,
17 to look at a photograph, P717?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Which you told us could have been the man,
20 the body you saw?
21 A. Yeah, I believe that.
22 Q. Yes?
23 A. I believe that is the body.
24 Q. It might help you to look at P719, which is
25 a slightly better photograph, it is a slightly clearer
1 picture?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Does that show the approximate position in
4 which the body you saw was?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If we could go back to your statement at
7 AM276.3, paragraphs 17 to 19, you indicate in paragraph
8 18, do you not, that you have a vivid memory of the man
9 that you saw, and that is the position, is it not?
10 A. I have a vivid memory of seeing a man in that
11 position, yes.
12 Q. You return to that a little later on in your
13 statement, you need not look at it, where you refer to
14 very distinct memories not only of the soldier in the
15 car park but the body to the north of Joseph Place;
16 that is the position, is it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If we look at your description in paragraph
19 18, you believed or thought the man was wearing a suit,
20 but in any event, whether he was wearing a suit or not,
21 he was smartly dressed?
22 A. Well, at the more recent taking -- the more
23 recent statement I felt pressed to try and remember
24 details where I had an overall, you know, a view of the
25 person and, um, I still cannot be too sure about that,
1 that is an impression.
2 Q. The impression you had further, was this just
3 impression or is this part of your vivid recollection,
4 because looking at paragraph 18:
5 "The man was middle-aged."
6 A. That was my impression at the time.
7 Q. You have a recollection, do you, or
8 impression, that he had grey to white hair and was
9 balding?
10 A. Balding, aye, at least, aye.
11 Q. That is clear in your mind?
12 A. It was an impression I had, anyway, at the
13 time.
14 Q. The other recollection you apparently have
15 from paragraph 19, where you say you cannot remember in
16 which direction the man was lying, "but his face was
17 closest to me," is that something you can see in your
18 mind's eye?
19 A. Aye.
20 MR LAWSON: If we go back to P719 for
21 a moment and lighten it up again, the man that is there
22 shown has his feet pointing towards the
23 Rossville Flats.
24 LORD SAVILLE: It is not entirely clear on
25 this photograph, Ms McGuinness, that is in fact
1 a photograph of two people: there is a body lying with
2 his feet facing the photographer and there is a man
3 facing the camera; they are two different people.
4 A. Yes, I can see that.
5 MR LAWSON: This is a man who in fact crawled
6 out to the body. But the body in question, I think
7 fairly plainly, as you perhaps recognise, has his head
8 towards the back of Joseph Place and his feet towards
9 the flats. That is not the picture you have in your
10 mind's eye?
11 A. No, no.
12 MR LAWSON: Ms McGuinness, I am very
13 grateful, thank you very much.
14 Questioned by MR MOSS
15 MR MOSS: My name is Moss, I appear for some
16 of the soldiers as well. Could we have a look on the
17 screen, please, paragraph 23 of your statement at
18 AM276.4. If you look at the last sentence in that
19 paragraph, you say there:
20 "I do not remember seeing anyone on the
21 walls who could have been firing the shots."
22 Ms McGuinness, did you actually look up to
23 the walls to see if you could see any soldiers there?
24 A. I do not know, I do not remember if I did or
25 not.
1 Q. Could I ask you, please, to look with me at
2 a couple of photographs. Could we have first on the
3 screen P475. This we understand is a photograph taken
4 from the walls. You will see it is looking towards
5 block 2. Your recollection, as I understand it, is you
6 were at the top of block 2 of the flats on one of the
7 top two floors, is that right?
8 A. As far as I remember that is where Phyllis's
9 granny lived.
10 Q. If we could look also at P473, again this is
11 a photograph that, as you can see, it is taken from the
12 walls. The block you see there is obviously block 3 of
13 the Rossville Flats rather than block 2, but you can
14 see, as in the previous photograph, that from the top
15 of the flats you would have a reasonable view towards
16 the top of the walls; is that right?
17 A. I do not know, I do not think so.
18 Q. I think what the photographs, I suggest, show
19 is that the top floor is at least on a level with, if
20 not slightly above, the top of the city walls?
21 A. That is a different side of the flats.
22 Q. Yes, if you want to look at the previous
23 photograph I showed you, that was P475, you can imagine
24 here the photographer standing on the city walls. You
25 can see as you look towards the top you are looking
1 slightly up?
2 A. Yeah, you probably could have.
3 Q. You were in a flat at the top of the walls
4 and you heard fire that you thought was from the
5 walls. If you had looked towards the walls, it is
6 likely that had a soldier been there firing over the
7 walls, you probably would have seen that soldier, would
8 you not?
9 A. Possibly, possibly.
10 Q. You said also that you had heard gunfire
11 before. Could I just ask you this: on Bloody Sunday,
12 of course, you were in your friend's grandmother's
13 flat, you have told us that, Mrs Gill's flat. Had you
14 been in that flat before when you heard gunfire?
15 A. I had not been in that flat before when
16 I heard gunfire.
17 Q. Could we have on the screen, please,
18 AM313.3. If we could highlight, please, paragraph 18
19 which appears again, as with my learned friend
20 Mr Lawson, I am just showing you an extract from the
21 statement of your friend Phyllis Brown at paragraph
22 18. I want to direct your attention to four lines
23 down, where she said that her impression of firing from
24 the city walls was simply an instinctive conclusion
25 based upon what she could see.
1 Does that apply for you as well, it was
2 really an instinctive --
3 A. Instinctive, yeah.
4 MR MOSS: Thank you very much.
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, do you have any
6 further questions?
7 MR CLARKE: No, thank you.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Ms McGuinness, thank you very
9 much indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry,
10 thank you.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 LORD SAVILLE: I think we now have
13 Mrs Stewart.
14 MR CLARKE: Yes.
15 MRS ROISIN STEWART, sworn
16 Questioned by MR CLARKE
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Stewart, I am the Chairman
18 of the Tribunal. The questions will be asked by the
19 barristers who sit in front of me. Could I ask you to
20 try and remember to keep your mouth fairly close to
21 that microphone, more or less as it is at the moment,
22 so that everybody is able to hear what you have to say.
23 MR CLARKE: Mrs Stewart, do you have with you
24 your statement to this Tribunal of 1st February 1999?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. I believe there are some small corrections
2 that you would like to make in paragraphs 20 and 21
3 which are at AS34.4. The sentence that begins:
4 "The shots sounded different to the previous
5 bangs that I had heard ..."
6 I understand that you would like to take out
7 the words that follow and the sentence beginning:
8 "... these shots made a very sharp crack,"
9 and substitute the words:
10 "... because they were hitting metal
11 railings"; is that right?
12 A. That is correct, yes.
13 Q. In paragraph 21, as drafted it says:
14 "Willie Meenan began dragging me backwards
15 along the balcony towards the safety of the stairwell.
16 By the time he had pulled me into the stairwell, the
17 shooting had stopped."
18 I understand you would like that to read:
19 "The shooting at the balcony had stopped"; is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I understand that you would like to add to
23 paragraph 21, the words:
24 "I could still hear shooting when I was in
25 the stairwell."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "It made a sharp cracking sound." Is that
3 right?
4 A. There was, there were some shots with a sharp
5 cracking sound.
6 Q. With those qualifications, is this, your
7 statement, true to the best of your knowledge and
8 belief?
9 A. It is.
10 Q. I would like to ask you, if I may, a number
11 of supplementary questions that arise out of it. If we
12 could have a look at AS34.1, paragraph 4, you describe
13 there how you and Eugene McGillan were walking east
14 along the south side of William Street and how, when
15 you paused at the junction with Rossville Street, you
16 noticed some army Jeeps, possibly two or three of them,
17 in the Prince Arthur Street, Little James Street area
18 at a point that you have marked on the map, which is in
19 fact the intersection between Little James Street and
20 Prince Arthur Street.
21 Do you think you could be wrong about the
22 position of the Jeeps at this stage?
23 A. What I can say is that, um, army presence on
24 the street or RUC presence in the street was a daily
25 occurrence, regardless of what march you went to.
1 Helicopters in the air would have been background music
2 and we were busy chatting, we were not -- we did not
3 see anything unusual, it was not called to my attention
4 for any reason. They were there and whatever march or
5 whatever we had been on, they would have been there, so
6 I really did not take an awful lot of notice of them.
7 Q. I was specifically focusing on the place
8 where you had put the Jeeps as being. Let me show you
9 a photograph. Can we look at photograph P350. This is
10 a photograph taken on the day. You can see the march
11 coming down William Street?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This is the junction with Rossville Street.
14 We can see in the photograph Little James Street here
15 and the junction with Prince Arthur Street is,
16 I believe, where I am indicating on the plan.
17 (Indicating). There are other photographs of a similar
18 nature which I can show you, if you would like. There
19 does not seem to be any army vehicles at the spot to
20 which you are referring, that is why I wondered whether
21 you might be mistaken about that?
22 A. They may be further over, I am not sure.
23 Q. We know there was a barrier further up in
24 Little James Street off the photograph, behind which
25 there were two army vehicles. It may be that it is
1 that that you saw?
2 A. That is possible.
3 Q. May I come then to paragraphs 5 and 6. You
4 describe in paragraph 5 how most of the younger people,
5 including yourself, proceeded eastwards across the
6 junction out of curiosity to see a riot and you got
7 very close to the army barricade at barrier 14,
8 standing in the doorway of Kerr's fruit shop. May we
9 have a look at photograph P600. This is a photograph
10 that was taken on the day, as you can see, before the
11 arrival at the barrier of the march. The time on the
12 Guildhall clock puts it at half past three. Is Kerr's
13 fruit shop just shown on the picture there, or is it
14 somewhere else?
15 A. Um, I think it -- I am not sure if it is that
16 building or the building next to it. It may be further
17 up.
18 Q. The building nearer to the barrier?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. It is either that building on the far left or
21 the building next to it?
22 A. I think the name above the shop may have been
23 Devine's fruit shop. The reason I would have called it
24 Kerr's fruit shop was that they were actually cousins
25 and Kerr's worked in it, it was a local thing that you
1 would refer to.
2 Q. You describe in your statement how at the
3 time that you were there there was not a large crowd?
4 A. No.
5 Q. About 30 or 20 young people, of whom about
6 half a dozen were throwing stones at the army?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. How far down the march had you been,
9 whereabouts were you in the march?
10 A. Um, there was quite a crowd in front of us,
11 but the, um, I know when I was on Westland Street, the
12 -- I could see the front of the march at the top of
13 the street and when I got to the top of Westland
14 Street, the people were still coming round the bottom
15 of Lecky Road. So maybe a third of the way back, or
16 less.
17 Q. We have seen a number of pictures of people
18 at this barrier. Can we have a look for instance at
19 373, showing a sizeable crowd in William Street. If we
20 look at 375, that is a picture taken a little further
21 back, showing a great press of people. The number was
22 much less than that when you got there, was it?
23 A. It was, yes.
24 Q. May we then turn over the page to paragraphs
25 7 and 8 on AS34.2. You describe in paragraph 8 how you
1 were aware of a lot of activity behind the soldiers and
2 how Eugene said to you that he thought there was
3 something strange going on and thought that the "duck
4 squad" would be doing a snatch operation. Did you
5 understand why he was calling it a "duck squad"?
6 A. Yes, I did. It was just a word they used.
7 The -- I suppose because they move very quietly and one
8 thing and the other, it used to -- in riot situations
9 they would have swept in on foot to try and catch any
10 of the rioters.
11 Q. Anyway, he feared that you would be caught in
12 the middle between soldiers at barrier 14 and the
13 soldiers in Little James Street?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you decided to retreat?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You say that you had noticed the army's water
18 cannon vehicle?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Being brought forward?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Along William Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you were at the barrier, was it apparent
25 that the water cannon had already been used; was there
1 water around that you could see?
2 A. I would not be sure on that, I am not sure.
3 Q. But you have a recollection of seeing the
4 army water cannon vehicle being brought forward?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You then retreat back along William Street
7 and CS gas was fired and you went into the alleyway
8 that leads to the waste ground and stopped at the rear
9 of a chemist's shop?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. To recover, is that right?
12 A. Yeah, it was about the chemist, it was the
13 back of the shop, I do not remember, but it was roughly
14 around where the chemist's shop would have been.
15 Q. May we then look at paragraphs 9 to 12 on the
16 screen. You describe there stopping behind the shop
17 and hearing the sound of what you assumed to be rubber
18 bullets and rounds of CS gas coming from the area of
19 barrier 14; is that right?
20 A. Is barrier 14 William Street?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Sorry, is that up at Sackville Street end?
23 Q. No. Let us have a look --
24 A. Because I could not see the barrier 14 -- no,
25 I could not see any barrier when I was behind the, the
1 shops, I could see gas being fired into
2 Rossville Street direction from William Street.
3 Q. You say in paragraph 9, fourth line down:
4 "At the time I assumed that the rubber
5 bullets and rounds of CS gas were being fired by the
6 army."
7 Then two sentences on, you say:
8 "I could not exactly pinpoint the direction
9 from which the bangs were coming. However, I had the
10 impression that some bangs were coming from the area of
11 barrier 14 on William Street."
12 That is the barrier at the end of
13 William Street. Do you remember having that impression
14 whilst you were behind the chemist's?
15 A. Are you talking about the barrier down
16 towards Guildhall Square, is that barrier 14?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Sorry, I am slightly confused here. It was
19 not visible, no, and there was a lot of, there was
20 a lot of, um, noise all around. I was disorientated at
21 this stage, CS gas is very chokey and it does bring
22 a lot of tears to your eyes, so I -- the bangs that
23 I heard and what I seen at that point as I looked up
24 would have been gas cannisters coming into
25 Rossville Street.
1 MR TOOHEY: Mrs Stewart, just looking to your
2 right, you are not saying in that sentence that you saw
3 barrier 14 at the time that you heard these bangs, you
4 are really just speaking of an impression?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR TOOHEY: Bearing that in mind, was it your
7 impression that there was noise that you describe as
8 bangs coming from the barrier 14 and other bangs coming
9 from near Rossville and William Street?
10 A. Yes, I had just left, as he calls it, barrier
11 14 and there was stone throwing going on there too, so,
12 um -- and the occasional rubber bullet being fired, um,
13 so there was a lot of noise all round. When people
14 started shouting about "they're coming in" and I lifted
15 my eyes, I seen gas cannisters bouncing into
16 Rossville Street, just as the Saracen was coming in.
17 Q. You describe in paragraph 10 how a family
18 friend, Willie Meenan, came up to you and put his coat
19 around your head to try to help you regain your breath?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could we have on the screen EP24.4? Somebody
22 has suggested that the man who appears on the right of
23 this photograph is Willie Meenan?
24 A. No.
25 Q. That is not him?
1 A. No.
2 Q. May we then go back to AS34.2, paragraphs 10
3 to the end. You describe there somebody shouting
4 "they're coming" and noticing a large crowd running
5 south down Rossville Street and wondering where they
6 had come from, because there had been relatively few
7 people in William Street when you were there; is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes, um, when I was in William Street I was
10 unaware of anything happening at the junction of
11 William Street and Rossville Street and when I crossed
12 out of William Street -- when I came out of
13 William Street, I did not come up past that junction,
14 so I was unaware that that group of people were
15 actually there.
16 Q. "The crowd was being pursued by a Saracen
17 moving south down Rossville Street, which passed
18 through the crowd and overtook the people."
19 Is that right?
20 A. Yes, at this stage I was running.
21 Q. You describe in paragraph 12 that you ran
22 south across the waste ground and saw the Saracen swing
23 east off Rossville Street in a semi-circle and continue
24 to move across the waste ground towards you and the
25 people who were running with you towards the flats; is
1 that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You describe how, as the Saracen came towards
4 you, you could see a soldier walking alongside it. You
5 put to the left, east of the Saracen at point F. Could
6 we just have a look at your map at AS34.7. The arrows
7 describe, do they, the route of the Saracen?
8 A. More or less, yes, yes more or less.
9 Q. You were coming down from point D?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As you went in that direction and it came
12 towards you, you saw a soldier at point F walking by
13 the Saracen; is that right?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. May we come then to paragraphs 14 to 17 at
16 34.3. You describe a soldier as having a rifle in his
17 hands which he was holding at waist level, with the
18 barrel pointing towards you and the other people who
19 were running towards him and you say that he pointed
20 his rifle directly at you, but you did not see him
21 shoot.
22 When you say that he pointed his rifle
23 directly at you, how was he holding it at that stage?
24 A. He was holding it at waist level.
25 Q. You ran towards block 1 with Willie Meenan
1 and he had another girl on his left-hand side; is that
2 right?
3 A. Yes, she was on his left.
4 Q. Do you know who she was?
5 A. I did not know her at the time, I knew her to
6 see, she was not a friend or anything.
7 Q. Do you know who she is now?
8 A. I think it was Alana Burke.
9 Q. You describe how, as you approached the
10 Saracen, Willie pulled you to the west and at some
11 stage you became aware that the girl on his left-hand
12 side had fallen and you stopped to see what had
13 happened to her. Did you see what had happened to her?
14 A. Um, basically she disappear, I did not know
15 whether she was under the Saracen or had got to the
16 other side of the Saracen, um, she had basically
17 disappeared from my view and when I turned back and
18 Willie Meenan just said, "she is dead, leave her," so
19 I presumed she had been hit by the Saracen.
20 Q. Whereabouts were you at that stage?
21 A. We were still on the waste ground.
22 Q. Do you know where on the waste ground?
23 A. Um --
24 Q. If we look at your map at AG34.7 -- or I can
25 show you a photograph, if that would be more helpful.
1 Do you know where this incident occurred?
2 A. I would not be sure. It was obviously
3 between Eden Place and Pilot's Row. It would not have
4 been any further than that.
5 Q. No further than that?
6 A. I do not think so.
7 Q. Were you conscious not only of a Saracen
8 describing approximately the route that is shown on the
9 map, but of another Saracen going in towards the mouth
10 of the car park?
11 A. Personally I was not aware of that at that
12 stage. I think I was in shock at that stage.
13 Q. You and Willie Meenan made it to the entrance
14 to the block that we can see marked with an H; is that
15 right?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. You got inside the block and ran up the
18 stairs to the first of the balconies; is that right?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. May we go back to AS34.3, paragraphs 17 and
21 18? You describe there how you noticed an open door
22 which was at the entrance to either the second or the
23 third flat along to the north and Willie Meenan, who
24 was behind you, told you to run for the door; is that
25 right?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Just at that moment, you describe, you saw
3 a boy run out of the open door and throw an empty milk
4 bottle over the balcony into the car park, shouting as
5 he threw, "murdering bastards"; is that right?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. How clear are you that it was empty?
8 A. Very clear.
9 Q. There is evidence that from approximately
10 that spot, from one of the balconies, somebody threw
11 a bottle which contained acid or an acidic substance in
12 it; did you see anything of that kind happen?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You describe the boy in that paragraph and
15 the look of anger on his face. If we go to paragraphs
16 19 to 21 on AS34.4, you describe how a split second
17 after the bottle had been thrown a number of shots rang
18 out from the direction of the car park, giving you the
19 immediate impression that the shots were aimed at the
20 balcony where you were; is that right?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. You were pushed to the ground by Willie
23 Meenan?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And the boy threw himself back inside the
1 doorway that he had come out of; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You say that the shots sounded different
4 because they were hitting the metal railings?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you could see the dust lifting around you
7 as you lay on the balcony floor where Willie Meenan had
8 pushed you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And could see some bullets striking the
11 railings of the balcony. Could we have a look at
12 photograph P301? This is a photograph not taken on the
13 day, but it shows the block of the flats. I think we
14 can lighten it a little more. The balcony on which you
15 were on, as I have understood it, is that one there; is
16 that right? (Marked with yellow arrow).
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. We can see the doors into the flats behind
19 and we can also see that there are railings and
20 a handrail on top of the railings set into the concrete
21 of the balcony. (Marked with red arrows).
22 Where was it that you saw bullets strike
23 exactly?
24 A. There was bullets striking the rail.
25 Q. Those upright railings embedded in the
1 concrete which support the --
2 A. No, the handrail.
3 Q. You refer to dust lifting around you on the
4 balcony floor. Where did the dust appear to come from?
5 A. Well, I mean, at the time I was not really
6 taking note where the dust was, I was busy keeping my
7 head down, but I would imagine that some of the bullets
8 actually struck the concrete, um, beneath me where the
9 railings are secured on to.
10 Q. May we go back to AS34.4, paragraphs 21 to
11 23. You describe there how Willie Meenan dragged you
12 backwards along the balcony towards the safety of the
13 stairwell and once you had got there, you sat down and
14 remained very still and noticed that Barman Duffy was
15 one of those sheltering in the stairwell and a pregnant
16 lady, is that right?
17 A. Yes, we actually moved a few stairs up before
18 we settled.
19 Q. In the addition that you made to your
20 statement this morning, you recall shooting when you
21 were actually sheltering in the stairwell?
22 A. There was, yes.
23 Q. You then describe in paragraph 23 hearing
24 a man with a very cultured, well spoken English accent,
25 shout through a loud-hailer, "if any of those bastards
1 up there move, shoot them"; you could tell that it was
2 a loud-hailer, could you?
3 A. I could, yes.
4 Q. You say that you think he must have been very
5 near to the car park entrance to block 1 of the flats.
6 If we go forward to paragraph 36 on AS34.6, you
7 described how on the evening of Bloody Sunday you
8 watched the ITV news and heard as part of a broadcast
9 on army officer's voice shouting out, "do not fire
10 until you have identified a positive target," and you
11 say that you immediately recognised that voice as being
12 the same one as you had heard through the loud-hailer
13 earlier in the day; is that right?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. You have a memory of doing that, do you?
16 A. I was horrified when I heard those words,
17 because they were not the words that I expected to
18 hear.
19 Q. But what you describe in paragraph 36 is
20 identifying the speaker of those words with the man
21 who, in the news broadcast, shouts out, "do not fire
22 until you have identified a positive target," you have
23 a recollection of doing that, do you?
24 A. Yes, it was the same man.
25 Q. You say that you were certain it was the same
1 voice, that on the same news broadcast an officer was
2 interviewed and his name was given as Colonel Wilford,
3 whose voice sounded similar to the voice that you heard
4 earlier on the TV news broadcast.
5 Is the position that the voice that you
6 clearly identified was the voice that said "do not fire
7 until you have identified a positive target" and
8 Colonel Wilford sounded similar to that voice?
9 A. Yes, well, when Colonel Wilford gave his
10 interview on television, he was not speaking through
11 a loud-hailer. When I heard the words that were
12 spoken, he was using a loud-hailer and I would
13 positively identify that voice as his.
14 Q. I need to be clear about what you are
15 positively identifying. There are two things that you
16 heard on the ITV news, one was an army officer saying
17 "do not fire until you have identified a positive
18 target," and later on in the same news broadcast, you
19 saw, and we have seen ourselves, an interview with what
20 was unquestionably Colonel Wilford?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you heard the unidentified army officer
23 on the news saying "do not fire until you have
24 identified a positive target" that you describe, as
25 I understand it, as the voice that you immediately
1 recognised?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. As the one that you had heard earlier in the
4 day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You then saw in the same broadcast an officer
7 identified as Colonel Wilford, who seemed to have
8 a similar voice?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. So you thought that the person who could be
11 heard saying "do not fire until you have identified
12 a positive target" and Colonel Wilford were one and the
13 same?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. May we come back to AS34.4, paragraphs 24 and
16 25. You describe there how the shooting started up
17 again. Barman Duffy, looking from his position close
18 to the wooden slats of the stairwell, said, "I do not
19 think we will get out of here alive," and the pregnant
20 lady became hysterical; is that right?
21 A. Yes, she was very upset.
22 Q. If we look over the page at paragraph 26, you
23 describe how, by the time you had finished your
24 prayers, all the shooting had stopped and Barman Duffy
25 looked out of the wooden slats and told you that
1 a Saracen and some soldiers were positioned immediately
2 below you and said that he could see bodies being
3 thrown into the back of the Saracen; is that right?
4 A. Yes. Barman Duffy was actually whispering.
5 I overheard the conversation, he was whispering to
6 Willie Meenan. He did not want to upset us or distress
7 the pregnant woman any further.
8 Q. If we look at AS34.7, we can see the position
9 where the stairwell was, we looked at it before, marked
10 H?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you say that Barman Duffy was saying that
13 some soldiers were positioned immediately below you at
14 the point I, which we can see is just to the north of
15 the northwest corner of block 1. Did he actually
16 identify at the time where the soldiers were?
17 A. I would actually say it was much much closer
18 to the flat because, um, he was looking down directly;
19 he had his back, um, against the wall and was looking
20 directly down. It was not a solid wall, it was slats,
21 it used to be glass and they had been broken and they
22 put in wooden slats and there was quite a gap between
23 the slats.
24 Q. If we look at photograph P302, we can see
25 what you are talking about?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The wooden slats we can see on the photograph
3 in the stairwell and we can also see that you can look
4 through them. Do you know whether he was looking
5 through the slats at the north end here or at the west
6 face there? (Indicating).
7 A. If you mean by the west, facing
8 Rossville Street?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Yes, it was Rossville Street he was looking
11 on to.
12 Q. In that case I wonder whether what he may
13 have been seeing was bodies put into a Saracen, which
14 we know at some stage was at the rubble barricade,
15 which is down in that direction?
16 A. Well, he did not, he did not clarify.
17 Q. He did not clarify. If we then go back to
18 paragraph 27 at AS34.5, you describe staying in the
19 stairwell for a while and how there came a time when
20 you looked out through the slats and could see about 15
21 to 20 men being marched out of Columbcille Court at the
22 northern end of Kells Walk with their hands on their
23 heads and being lined up against a wall in order to
24 spreadeagle them.
25 If we look at your map at AS34.7, when you
1 say that they were marched out of Columbcille Court to
2 the northern end of Kells Walk, do you mean by that
3 that they came out of there, that little alley that is
4 to the north of Kells Walk?
5 A. I think so. I think that was it.
6 Q. If we look at photograph P496, we believe
7 this to be a photograph taken of people against the
8 wall at the junction of Rossville Street and
9 William Street. William Street is there and
10 Rossville Street is here. (Indicating). Do you
11 recollect seeing a scene something like that?
12 A. Yes, yes, I do. Looking through the slats my
13 vision was very limited, it was extremely limited at
14 this stage.
15 Q. If we go to AS34.5, paragraphs 28 to 32, you
16 describe in paragraph 28 seeing another group of men
17 being marched by some soldiers in a southerly direction
18 down Rossville Street and the group passed out of your
19 line of vision. How far had they got to when they
20 passed out of your line of vision?
21 A. Well, possibly no further than that wall and
22 slightly ...
23 Q. Possibly no further than the wall we were
24 looking at in the photograph a moment ago?
25 A. Yeah, yeah.
1 Q. You then describe how, in the end, you came
2 down the stairs and went out of the car park entrance
3 to block 1. In paragraph 32 you describe a memory of
4 passing the barricade, climbing over it and seeing
5 a patch of blood on the barricade, larger than the size
6 of a dinner plate. If we look at your map at AS34.7,
7 we can see the barricade. You have marked, I think, at
8 point K; is that right, the spot where you saw the
9 blood?
10 A. Well, I, I would not be very sure at this
11 stage. At this stage, I mean, even walking up
12 Rossville Street, I do not remember an awful lot about
13 it. I was in shock. There were quite a few people,
14 um, starting to come out from wherever they were at
15 that stage and, um, there were a lot of people milling
16 about.
17 Q. Does it come to this: that your recollection
18 is of seeing a patch of blood somewhere on the
19 barricade itself?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. But where exactly is not clear?
22 A. Yes, at this stage any memory that I would
23 have from this stage on was basically like flashbacks,
24 um, there are large gaps. I do not, I do not remember
25 an awful lot about my journey home that day. There are
1 definitely large gaps in that.
2 Q. Lastly, if we go to paragraph 33 on AS34.5,
3 you describe walking in a southerly direction and
4 standing in silence looking at a body lying on the
5 ground near the south gable end of block 1 with
6 a light-coloured coat over the head and upper part and
7 you confirm that that was Barney McGuigan's body from
8 the photograph that is attached to your statement.
9 Could we have a look at photograph P608? Is
10 that something like what you saw?
11 A. Well, I, I did not go over near the body,
12 I stood quite a distance away and there was people
13 milling -- as I say, a lot of people milling around,
14 but there was a body there and it was, it was covered.
15 Q. You are conscious it was covered with a coat?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 MR CLARKE: Thank you very much.
18 Questioned by MR LAWSON
19 MR LAWSON: Mrs Stewart, my name is Lawson.
20 I represent quite a lot of soldiers and I have some
21 questions I want to ask you, please.
22 In your statement made to this Inquiry, which
23 I think is the first and only statement you have made
24 about these events, is it not?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. You referred to meeting up with someone you
2 knew called Eugene McGillan?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Was he a friend of yours?
5 A. He was.
6 Q. Did you know him well?
7 A. Not really, um, I had known him, he palled
8 around with some boys in the street and I had met him
9 through them.
10 Q. You referred in your statement -- we can look
11 at it if need be, I know you have a hard copy in front
12 of you -- to being with him in William Street?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And being with him at or near to barrier 14?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you remain with him after that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Where was he the last time you saw him that
19 day?
20 A. He was at barrier 14, just before I moved
21 away, he came over and he said to me that there was
22 something strange going on behind the barricade and
23 that, um, he thought it would be safer if I moved away.
24 Q. He unfortunately died soon after
25 Bloody Sunday, did he not?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. In the middle of March?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He was shot dead?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Did you know he was a member of the IRA?
7 A. To this day I still do not know if he was
8 a member of the IRA.
9 Q. Did you go to his funeral?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. An IRA military funeral?
12 A. There were two funerals that morning, one --
13 of the two men that were shot dead that day, the first
14 funeral was an IRA funeral with IRA trappings.
15 Eugene's funeral did not have IRA trappings.
16 Q. Did it not?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you surprised to see his name on the IRA
19 roll of honour?
20 A. At that stage, yeah, yeah.
21 Q. His name was published on the roll of honour
22 published by the IRA, was it not?
23 A. I do not know who publishes what, but I have
24 seen his name, yes.
25 Q. On the so-called roll of honour?
1 A. Yes, by whoever published it.
2 Q. I am sorry?
3 A. By whoever published it. I do not know who.
4 Q. You were not at any stage with him, were you,
5 at Kells Walk?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Let me move on. Can we go, please, to the
10 point of your history where you went into block 1.
11 I do not want to ask you about anything before that.
12 You went into block 1, is this correct, before there
13 was shooting of which you were aware, other than rubber
14 bullets that had been fired up by the barriers?
15 A. I was not identifying shooting at that stage,
16 there was rubber bullets, there was gas, there was
17 screaming. I was not identifying, but it does not mean
18 that there was not shooting, I personally was not
19 identifying it.
20 Q. I want to get the overall time scale for
21 a moment. You were not aware at least of there being
22 live rounds being fired at the time you went into
23 block 1; is that right?
24 A. I was not aware of it.
25 Q. Having gone into block 1, you were, for
1 a brief period -- I will not ask how long, because I do
2 not imagine you can say -- for a brief period you were
3 up on the balcony?
4 A. Yes, a very brief period.
5 Q. You then retreated back the way you had come
6 in?
7 A. No, we actually moved further up onto the
8 flat.
9 Q. Did you come out the same stairwell you had
10 gone in?
11 A. Yes, the same stairwell.
12 Q. After a short time on the balcony, during the
13 course of which the bottle thrown and there were some
14 shots fired -- I am taking it very briefly --
15 A. Very briefly, yes.
16 Q. -- But tell me if I am misrepresenting it.
17 Apart from that very short period, you then return to
18 the same stairwell at the top end of block 1, yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where you saw Barman Duffy?
21 A. He was on the stairwell, yes.
22 Q. Who had not been there when you came in; is
23 that right?
24 A. I had not noticed him, when I came in there
25 were a lot of people.
1 Q. You remained there with him and others, that
2 is Barman Duffy and others?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Until the soldiers withdrew?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And, as you have said, there were a lot of
9 people down there on the stairwell, were there not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you see Barman Duffy at any stage being
12 attacked by a soldier?
13 A. No.
14 Q. No?
15 A. No. I remained on the stairwell, but whether
16 Barman Duffy remained on the stairwell, I cannot say.
17 Q. He remained on the stairwell until the
18 Saracens withdrew, did he not?
19 A. I had no vision of where the army were or
20 where the Saracens were, I just took it for granted
21 that we stayed there until they withdrew. I know when
22 I, when I came down there were no soldiers.
23 Q. But Barman Duffy was still there. If we look
24 at your statement, AS34.5, paragraph 30. I hope I am
25 not taking it out of context, this is towards the end
1 of your account of being in the stairwell, where you
2 said:
3 "Barman Duffy looked out of the wooden slats
4 and told us that the Saracens had gone."
5 That was true, was it?
6 A. Well --
7 Q. That is what he said?
8 A. He said, yeah.
9 Q. And he was there?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And you made a number of references to
12 Barman Duffy, have you not, in the account you have
13 given us, about him leading the prayers, him seeing and
14 reporting on seeing soldiers outside; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Again, did you at any stage see Barman Duffy
17 being assaulted by a soldier in or near to that
18 stairwell?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Your statement makes no suggestion that
21 Barman Duffy was in any way injured, does it?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did he appear to be in any way injured?
24 A. When I was on the stairway, um, what I can
25 say is that we came off the balcony and back on to the
1 stairwell and started moving. We stopped very abruptly
2 with the words from someone, saying, "if any of those
3 bastards up there move, shoot them". They were -- we
4 did not move after that, I certainly did not move after
5 that. We looked at each other in disbelief, we did not
6 know whether they were talking about us or not, but we
7 took it it was us he was addressing.
8 Q. That was you in the stairwell?
9 A. We were in the stairwell and at that stage
10 Barman Duffy -- when Barman Duffy said to me or said to
11 the company, "I do not think we might get out of this
12 alive," he was actually on the turn of the stair while
13 I was -- had my back to the bottom of the stair.
14 Q. But you did not see that he apparently had
15 any injury to his leg?
16 A. He, he was stopped, he was sitting. I do not
17 know whether he had an injury to his leg or not.
18 Q. He did not say anything to you about having
19 been kicked in the testicles and having been shot at
20 point blank range with a baton gun?
21 A. No, at this stage we were praying for a happy
22 death.
23 Q. You did not notice anything like that?
24 A. I was not looking.
25 Q. You say you were looking at each other when
1 you heard these words to the effect, "shoot the
2 bastards," or, "if they move shoot them"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who was looking at each other?
5 A. Well, um, what, Willie Meenan was directly
6 above me, I am sure it was him I was looking at and the
7 other woman, the pregnant woman was sobbing, I looked
8 at her. We were in disbelief. Barman Duffy was
9 slightly above that again.
10 Q. There was a lot of other people about there,
11 was there not?
12 A. That was all was in my view. They were very
13 small stairways, they were very -- there may only have
14 been a half a dozen or more steps to a stairway. There
15 was no-one else in my view.
16 Q. I thought you agreed before there was a lot
17 of people in and around the stairwell?
18 A. We could hear people.
19 Q. Sorry?
20 A. We could hear people, we could hear people
21 below us.
22 Q. What, further down the stairs?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You would agree there must have been a lot of
25 people altogether in that area?
1 A. I would imagine there was quite a few.
2 Q. And you tell us that you heard someone
3 through a loud-hailer, you are sure about that, you
4 said?
5 A. Positive.
6 Q. Quite positive?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. No doubt about that whatsoever?
9 A. None whatsoever.
10 Q. Using the words you have told us, about
11 shooting people if they moved?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. You had no difficulty hearing that?
14 A. None.
15 Q. Mr Meenan must have heard it?
16 A. Yes, it stopped us in our tracks, we froze at
17 that stage, we did not move because of those words.
18 Q. But Mr Meenan, you tell us, does not want to
19 co-operate with this Inquiry?
20 A. Well, whether Mr Meenan wants to co-operate
21 or not, it is really not for me to say. I have spoken
22 to him afterwards. We have never discussed
23 Bloody Sunday in any detail at all, never discussed
24 what happened. Mr Meenan is quite traumatised by the
25 whole thing.
1 Q. You have told him you were going to give a
2 statement to this Inquiry and he said he was not going
3 to participate?
4 A. I thought it was only fair as I was going to
5 tell the truth and use his name.
6 Q. It must have been the position, if what you
7 say was shouted through a loud-hailer, if that
8 occurred, it must have been the position, in common
9 sense, Mrs Stewart, that a lot of other people would
10 have been bound to have heard that?
11 A. They may have, they may have not. I do not
12 know what position other people were in.
13 Q. Many other people who were in and around you
14 on the stairwell, they must have heard it, if it
15 happened?
16 A. Well, those that I was directly in contact
17 with would have.
18 Q. If this happened, as you have described, it
19 is right then, is it, the first time you have given a
20 written account of that was when you made a statement
21 to this Inquiry?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said you connected the voice to the voice
24 you had heard giving the cease fire order on the
25 television the same night?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. You thought it might be Colonel Wilford?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Do you accept it would be very difficult for
5 you to tell whether the voices you heard on the day
6 were the same as those you heard on the television?
7 A. Those voices have haunted me for 30 years,
8 I do not think I am making a mistake.
9 Q. The voice that you heard the first time, you
10 claimed -- "if any of those bastards up there move,
11 shoot them," that voice was through a megaphone?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. There is absolutely no doubt about that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you hear any other voices through
16 a megaphone?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Could you hear the megaphone being used on
19 the lorry that led the march?
20 A. No, do you mean at this stage?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. At this stage, no.
23 Q. You see I am bound to suggest to you that
24 there was not a megaphone in use by army officers on or
25 near to the waste ground or by block 1; do you follow
1 the suggestion?
2 A. I follow your suggestion, yes.
3 Q. So I am inviting you to consider whether you
4 may have been wrong, firstly about saying there was
5 a megaphone?
6 A. No, I am not wrong.
7 Q. You are not?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was the voice that you heard on the
10 television giving the cease fire order, if I can call
11 it that, you know what I mean, was that distorted by
12 a megaphone?
13 A. I think so, yes.
14 Q. You think a megaphone was used there too?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You see, they were not in fact the same
17 voices, were they, Mrs Stewart?
18 A. I do not follow you at all here.
19 Q. I am suggesting to you that you are wrong in
20 purporting to identify the same person as having said,
21 if anyone did say it, "if any of those bastards up
22 there move, shoot them," and identifying that also as
23 being the man whose voice you heard on the television,
24 saying, "do not fire until you identify a positive
25 target"; do you understand the suggestion I am making
1 to you?
2 A. You are saying they were different people.
3 Q. I am saying if what you say was said through
4 a megaphone or at all outside block 1, if it was, it
5 was not said by the man whose voice you later heard on
6 the television giving the cease fire order; do you
7 follow my suggestion?
8 A. I follow the suggestion.
9 Q. Do you think that might be correct?
10 A. No, I do not, I believe them to be the same
11 person.
12 Q. But you also think that Colonel Wilford is
13 likely to be one and the same?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If it was not Colonel Wilford who gave the
16 cease fire order, you would accept you are wrong about
17 that?
18 A. Are you telling me that Colonel Wilford did
19 not give the cease fire?
20 Q. I am indicating to you that that is what
21 I anticipate the evidence will show in due course?
22 A. No, no, I believe that they were the one man.
23 Q. You have heard my suggestions about that and
24 you have dealt with them, I will not pursue it
25 further.
1 Just one other matter, please, I need not go
2 to your statement for this purpose, but dealing with
3 the period when you were on the balcony, that brief
4 period, you saw the bottle thrown. Do you remember
5 Mr Clarke told you about some other evidence we have
6 heard about acid being thrown from that area. How can
7 you possibly say that there was not a clear liquid in
8 that bottle?
9 A. Because when the boy came out with the bottle
10 in his hand it was down to his side. If there had been
11 liquid in it, it would have spilled out.
12 Q. Even if it was clear liquid?
13 A. It would have spilled out.
14 Q. It was tipped over, was it?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. He came out, threw the bottle over the ledge
17 and went straight back in again?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. You saw him for a fleeting second?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And you assure us there was no possibility
22 there was anything in that bottle?
23 A. I do not believe there was anything in the
24 bottle.
25 Q. In the same context that, you say, provoked
1 firing, or apparently provoked firing in the direction
2 of the bottle-thrower, yes?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Mr Clarke asked you about this, I fear I did
5 not understand: you said to the Inquiry that you could
6 see the dust lifting around you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Meaning to suggest what, that the bullets
9 were hitting the floor?
10 A. Yes, either hitting the floor or they may
11 have hit the wall behind me. My head was down, I was
12 not --
13 Q. The bullets would be unlikely to hit the
14 floor if they were being fired, if you are right, from
15 below you?
16 A. Sorry?
17 Q. Bullets were being fired from below you, were
18 they, from someone in the courtyard?
19 A. From someone in the courtyard, yes.
20 MR LAWSON: Thank you.
21 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, do you have any
22 further questions?
23 MR CLARKE: No, thank you.
24 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Stewart, I think Mr Hoyt
25 has a question for you.
1 MR HOYT: Mrs Stewart, do you recall any
2 soldiers being in the stairwell whilst you were there?
3 A. I had heard screaming from down below at one
4 stage that indicated that there were soldiers coming
5 in, but I never seen them, that is why we kept moving
6 up, we had the impression that they were --
7 MR HOYT: And Barman Duffy was with you while
8 you were in the stairwell?
9 A. Barman Duffy was on the stairwell when I came
10 back from the balcony.
11 MR HOYT: And he remained there until he said
12 that the Saracens had left?
13 A. I understood that they had left, yes.
14 MR HOYT: But he remained with you all the
15 time until he said that the Saracens had left?
16 A. I remember, I think Willie Meenan left the
17 stairwell at one stage. I am not sure whether
18 Barman Duffy was with him or not, but I --
19 MR HOYT: In any event, if he had left he
20 would have come back and announced --
21 A. Yes, he may have gone further up or
22 something.
23 MR HOYT: In any event he came back and
24 announced to you that the Saracens had left?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Questioned by MR CLARKE
2 MR CLARKE: Could I ask one further question:
3 you say that you heard screaming from down below at one
4 stage that indicated that there were soldiers coming
5 in. At what stage was it that you heard that?
6 A. When we were, I think when we came back from
7 the balcony we attempted to move further up because at
8 that stage there was something going on below and down
9 was not an option.
10 Q. That is the stage which you think you heard
11 it?
12 A. I think so, yes.
13 Q. Got the impression that soldiers were coming
14 in?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR CLARKE: That is all that I want to ask.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Stewart, thank you very
18 much for coming here to assist the Inquiry.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 MR CLARKE: Sir, I wonder before we have next
21 witness, my learned friend Mr Lawson was indicating or
22 suggesting to this witness that there were no soldiers
23 with megaphones around in that area. There is
24 a passage on a video, video 48, which does I think tend
25 to suggest that there were soldiers with megaphones.
1 It is set up at the moment so as to display it.
2 I wonder, before the point vanishes, if it might be
3 helpful to look at it.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, certainly.
5 (Video 48 played)
6 MR CLARKE: That is it.
7 LORD SAVILLE: You can see the soldier
8 running across.
9 MR CLARKE: With the white megaphone.
10 LORD SAVILLE: With the white megaphone, yes.
11 MR LAWSON: Sir, not that it is perhaps
12 necessary, but I of course acknowledge that the film
13 shows what it does. I was reflecting what I understood
14 our instructions to be.
15 LORD SAVILLE: I am bound to say, Mr Lawson,
16 when we looked at this before, I was not looking for
17 a megaphone.
18 MR LAWSON: It is plainly right.
19 MR JOHN NASH, sworn
20 Questioned by MR CLARKE
21 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Nash, I think you may have
22 been here before, so you will probably have heard what
23 I am about to you said to a number of witnesses. The
24 questions will be asked by the barristers in front of
25 me. It is important to try and keep your face
1 reasonably close to that microphone so we can all hear
2 what you have to say.
3 MR CLARKE: Mr Nash, do you have with you
4 your statement to this Tribunal of 15th June 1999?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. I believe there are some alterations that you
7 would like to make to the statement. If we look at
8 paragraph 6, in the third line it reads:
9 "When the march got to William Street, the
10 break off point, the main body went down
11 Rossville Street to Free Derry Corner, but a small
12 group went to harass the army at barricade 14 on the
13 map attached."
14 I understand you would like the sentence to
15 read:
16 "But a crowd went down William Street."
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. If we go to paragraph 9 on AN6.2, as drafted
19 it reads:
20 "There was a crowd heading towards the gap
21 between block 1 and block 2. I was behind them. When
22 I was making my way across the car park I heard the
23 roar."
24 I understand you would like to amend that so
25 as to read:
1 "Before I got to the car park I heard the
2 roar of the army engines."
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Then in paragraph 10 as drafted, it reads:
5 "They drove in at an angle, two initially,
6 one further up than the other, marked B and C."
7 As I understand it, you would seek to place
8 the position of those two Saracens further up towards
9 Eden Place?
10 A. That is correct, but could I add, Mr Clarke,
11 that that is actually in relation to research that
12 I have actually carried out, um, the only thing that
13 I can remember is the one Saracen, but on a quick look
14 over my right shoulder, I noticed that there was
15 a Saracen further down on the waste ground.
16 Q. When you say "further down on the waste
17 ground", you mean further in which direction?
18 A. Further to the north.
19 Q. In the same paragraph, you have a sentence
20 which reads:
21 "I turned around as they came in. As the
22 soldiers de-bussed they came out firing a large volley
23 of shots."
24 I think you would prefer that to read:
25 "They came out firing a volley of shots?
1 A. Can I say whilst making the statement at this
2 particular point I myself became rather excited and
3 I think the girl who was actually writing down what
4 I was saying, the fact that I became excited, I was
5 speaking very quickly and I think, no fault of the
6 girl's, that she had great difficulty in understanding
7 what I was trying to say. At that time as well I can
8 quite clearly remember that we had a tea or coffee
9 break and the paragraphs from 9 to 11 are basically the
10 same conversation that I was having, so we have, you
11 know, more or less, in a full conversation, that
12 conversation is broken down by -- into paragraphs,
13 which is not really in any sense a true reflection of
14 what I was trying to say. But as I say, no fault of
15 the girl, it was probably, and I would accept that that
16 was my fault.
17 Q. Let us make the corrections that you would
18 like to make in the draft as it exists. I think I will
19 ask you in a moment to perhaps express it in your own
20 words, but am I right in thinking that you would like
21 to take out "large" in paragraph 10?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. In paragraph 12, you say that:
24 "I can tell the difference between rubber
25 bullet shots and rifle shots. The soldiers had SLRs.
1 They were shooting from the hip. I saw the recoil and
2 puffs of smoke."
3 I think you would prefer that to read "a puff
4 of smoke"?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. In paragraph 13 you are recorded as saying as
7 drafted:
8 "As I was pushed through the other side of
9 the flats by the force of the crowd, I saw a man fall.
10 I later found out that it was Bernard or Barney
11 McGuigan."
12 I think your present recollection is that
13 this is not in fact Barney McGuigan that you are
14 referring to in this paragraph?
15 A. That is correct. The only memory that I have
16 is actually of hearing a warning and someone shout,
17 basically, "hit the deck" and I seen a person fall.
18 Q. With those qualifications, are the contents
19 of this statement true to the best of your knowledge
20 and belief?
21 A. They are.
22 Q. I want, if I may, to ask you just a few
23 supplementary questions about the statement. Could we
24 come, please, to paragraphs 8 to 12 at AN6.2. In this
25 passage of your statement you describe meeting up with
1 your father at the corner of Chamberlain Street and him
2 saying that your brother Alan was back from England and
3 that you should go down to the High Flats and meet him;
4 is that right?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. You walked down towards the flats, down
7 Chamberlain Street, and noticed that there was a crowd
8 heading through the gap between block 1 and block 2 of
9 the flats. As you went down Chamberlain Street, were
10 there others doing the same or were you on your own as
11 it were?
12 A. No, not all the detail is contained within
13 the statement of what actually happened, you know. The
14 impression given is that after my father had directed
15 me in that direction that I went immediately to the
16 Rossville Flats. That is not in fact the case.
17 Basically what I done was, I crossed the street,
18 entered Chamberlain Street and held on there for a few
19 minutes. I then proceeded to go further on and at that
20 time I was in conversation with a few people in
21 relation to the wedding the previous day and this
22 continued for possibly, you know, 10 minutes or so
23 whilst I was going along and at the same time I was,
24 um, looking for my brother, Alan.
25 Q. Is this all happening in Chamberlain Street,
1 that which you have been describing?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. You went down Chamberlain Street and into the
4 car park as you got to the bottom of Chamberlain
5 Street, what was happening in the car park, if
6 anything?
7 A. Whilst I was moving down Chamberlain Street
8 there was other people doing exactly the same as
9 I was. They were heading in the direction of
10 Free Derry Corner. There was also people coming in the
11 opposite direction who were basically going down to see
12 what was happening on William Street.
13 Q. You get into the car park. You describe, or
14 paragraph 9 describes how:
15 "There was a crowd heading through the gap
16 between blocks 1 and block 2 ..."
17 But when you got to the car park, did you
18 find a crowd running away from something or was it
19 simply that there were some people in the car park who
20 were going through the gap between the two blocks?
21 A. My memory tells me that prior to entering the
22 car park -- there is a photograph there that would
23 actually describe the scene that I seen.
24 Q. Let us see whether I can guess which
25 photograph you are talking about. Can we have a look
1 at EP28.5? Is that the photograph you are referring
2 to?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have I got this right: when you get to the
5 bottom of Chamberlain Street, there is a scene
6 something like this going on in the car park; is there?
7 A. Just prior to that, a few minutes prior to
8 that, I actually noticed the whining of Saracens. At
9 that stage I did not panic, I basically entered into
10 the complex of the High Flats. I turned round,
11 I turned to my, to my right. There was a Saracen
12 entering the car park and I took off with the rest of
13 the crowd. Some of the crowd -- most of the crowd, as
14 I thought, were heading in the direction of blocks 1
15 and 2. There was also people who were actually at that
16 particular time still going back down Chamberlain
17 Street. I decided to sprint to the corner between
18 block 1 and 2.
19 Q. Tell us in your own words what you remember
20 seeing about army vehicles?
21 A. Well, when I actually got very close to the
22 corner of blocks 1 and 2, I looked over my left
23 shoulder; I seen a Saracen enter the car park area;
24 I was also aware of something happening further back on
25 the waste ground. I moved forward. I looked back
1 again. The Saracen had actually come to a stop, there
2 were soldiers jumped out of the Saracen and I could
3 identify, at that particular time, at least four to six
4 shots being fired. In amongst the volley of four to
5 six shots I seen, I was paying particular attention to
6 one, it could have been all four, but my memory tells
7 me one. I seen a recoil or jerk and at the same time
8 I seen a puff of smoke.
9 Q. Can you say where the soldier was in relation
10 to whom you identified a recoil or jerk and saw a puff
11 of smoke?
12 A. He would have got out of the Saracen, the
13 back of the Saracen and he would have been closest to
14 me. As I say, all four, in my opinion at least four
15 de-bussed from the vehicle at that time. It would have
16 been the one that would have been closest to meself,
17 which would have obviously have been on the left-hand
18 side of the Saracen as I seen it.
19 Q. That is to say closest to block 1?
20 A. That is correct, yeah -- not necessarily
21 closest to block 1. I have seen photographs of the
22 Saracen in a position where I cannot argue about the
23 position of that Saracen, but my memory tells me that
24 that Saracen was in advance of that position and
25 pointed in the direction of block 3 of the
1 Rossville Flats.
2 Q. Let us have a look at the photograph we are
3 all talking about, P188: that shows what I think must
4 be the Saracen to which you are referring. The soldier
5 whose rifle you saw recoil, just let us get this quite
6 clear, which side of the Saracen was he on?
7 A. He would have been on the left-hand side.
8 Q. As we look at this photograph?
9 A. As we look at this photograph.
10 Q. Can you recall how far away he was from the
11 Saracen?
12 A. It happened almost immediately, but, as
13 I say, the position that the Saracen is in in this
14 photograph is not what I have in my mind.
15 Q. You see this recoil of a rifle and a puff of
16 smoke; what happens next?
17 A. Basically what I done was I just threw meself
18 into the crowd, there was other people behind me and,
19 um, I was pressed in the crowd and basically carried
20 through. I do not think me feet actually touched the
21 ground.
22 Q. You have described a volley of shots and
23 seeing the recoil of a weapon. After you had seen that
24 and pushed yourself into the crowd, did you see any
25 other firing?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you hear any other firing?
3 A. At that particular time I think I was aware
4 of constant gunfire.
5 Q. May we come to paragraph 13 of your statement
6 at AN6.2. You describe there being pushed through to
7 the other side of the Rossville Flats by the force of
8 the crowd and seeing a man fall. When you were in the
9 car park, that is to say before you were pushed through
10 to the other side, were you conscious of anybody
11 falling or having fallen in that area?
12 A. No. As I say, the first time -- the second
13 time I looked over my shoulder I was aware that there
14 was something happening further back beyond the Saracen
15 that I had in view, but my total concentration was on
16 that particular Saracen, but I was basically just aware
17 of something happening further back.
18 Q. You are then pushed through, as you have
19 described, to the other side of the crowd and see
20 somebody fall. You say in the next sentence but one:
21 "I cannot say which way he was facing or from
22 where he was shot."
23 Can you say that he was shot?
24 A. I cannot.
25 Q. Did you see what happened to him?
1 A. I did not. There again, um, I was in a state
2 of total shock and panic and there again it was just
3 a glance again. Obviously through conversations that
4 I had had, probably later on, someone had mentioned to
5 me that this -- you know, Barney McGuigan was shot at
6 or around that particular point and I automatically
7 assumed -- can I say as well, Mr Clarke, I have done
8 extensive research, I have been researching many, many
9 years into Bloody Sunday and basically what I have done
10 here is try and leave out any of the research material
11 that I have done. What I have done here is basically
12 try to give to this Inquiry a true and as accurate
13 account of the memories that I have.
14 Could I say as well that I have also
15 contacted many, many witnesses in order that they come
16 and give statements to this Inquiry and in contacting
17 those witnesses, I have also had to listen to their
18 memories of what they seen that particular day. So
19 basically what I have -- what I am actually trying to
20 say is, in giving this statement, although there may be
21 inaccuracies within this statement, you know, I could
22 have given a statement of 20 or 30 pages that could
23 possibly have been accurate in every way, shape and
24 form, but I wanted to give to this Inquiry the memories
25 that I have, not the memories that other people have.
1 Q. Thank you very much. They are the most
2 helpful contribution, people's actual memories of what
3 they actually saw and heard.
4 You describe saying that someone then
5 shouted, "hit the deck, they are firing from the
6 walls," is that someone who was in the crowd that was
7 forcing its way through the gap, or did the voice
8 appear to be coming from somewhere else?
9 A. I thought about it long and hard and, and
10 I now have a memory of that particular person probably
11 being the person who shouted the warning. He acted as
12 he himself gave the warning. I think maybe he became
13 aware that, for some apparent reason, that we were
14 under fire from the Derry Walls.
15 Q. Sorry, do you mean the person who shouted the
16 warning was the man who fell?
17 A. I think so, yeah, yeah.
18 Q. You then say that at this stage you kept low
19 and tried to get in close to Joseph Place. I am not
20 quite sure that I followed the route you took, could
21 you describe it to me in your own words?
22 A. Well, the instinctive reaction after
23 receiving the warning was to get as low as I possibly
24 could if, as I say, if I and the people in that area
25 were under fire from the Derry Walls. So I basically
1 ducked down low, tucked me head under me shoulders and
2 headed towards Joseph Place.
3 Q. Running along the south of the middle block,
4 where the shops are?
5 A. No, that would be along Joseph Place itself.
6 Q. I see, you went in front of Joseph Place?
7 A. That is correct, yeah. In order to shelter
8 meself from the Derry Walls.
9 Q. If we look at AN6.5, I should have spotted
10 that there is an arrow on the plan which I think shows
11 your route, is that what the arrow is intended to show?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Apart from the man who fell as you were going
14 between the gap, were you conscious at this stage of
15 any other body on the ground, either below block 1 or
16 below block 2?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You sprinted across, down in the end to
19 McGowan Lane, which we can see at AN6.5. If we could
20 maximize the map, you went down --
21 A. It should read McKeown's Lane.
22 Q. Could you maximize the bit round Free Derry
23 Corner. You went round the back of the Bogside Inn and
24 by some route or other went back home; is that right?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Did you stay around the area of Meenan
2 Square?
3 A. I possibly stayed there for possibly a few
4 minutes because there was other people in the area and
5 there was just a general feeling of being stunned,
6 being shocked and I had just a total sense of
7 bewilderment.
8 MR CLARKE: Thank you, those are the
9 questions that I wanted to ask.
10 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD
11 MR MANSFIELD: I just would like, if you
12 could help the Inquiry, since you have studied all the
13 photographs with regard to your family, to help
14 identify certain members of them. Can we first of all
15 have on the screen, please, EP27.11.001. I think this
16 is a photograph you have seen before. This one has
17 been marked up. I think you were able, is this right,
18 to identify your brother William Nash in that
19 photograph, with his back against the gable end wall
20 and labelled as he is?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR MANSFIELD: Bearing that in mind, I just
23 wanted your help about some other photographs --
24 LORD SAVILLE: At the moment, Mr Mansfield,
25 I have lost my bearings. This photograph is taken,
1 looking which way?
2 MR MANSFIELD: The photograph is from
3 Glenfada Park looking across towards the
4 Rossville Flats and in the background that is --
5 LORD SAVILLE: That is Joseph Place, then?
6 MR MANSFIELD: No, no, that is the gable --
7 his back is up against the gable end of Glenfada Park,
8 of the eastern block. Beyond him is Rossville Street
9 and then Rossville Flats in the distance.
10 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much.
11 MR MANSFIELD: Could we just look at --
12 following on from that photograph in a sense, I am not
13 suggesting they are in sequence, but -- EP27.6.001,
14 which in fact may be a photograph taken a little
15 earlier. You will see again the gable end wall of
16 Glenfada Park North on the left. This is a photograph
17 where you see Rossville Street and the APC --
18 LORD SAVILLE: On this one I know where I am
19 actually, it was the previous one took me a moment or
20 two to.
21 MR MANSFIELD: The wall we were looking at,
22 the gable end wall, we see that on the left-hand side
23 of this photograph; do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is there someone there who you think is
1 William Nash?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I do not know whether you can do it by
4 handling the screen yourself, or we can do it. Could
5 Mr Nash perhaps have control of the screen and could
6 you with either your finger or pen just put an arrow to
7 the person who you think is William Nash, please?
8 A. (Marked with blue arrow - AM6.6). I think
9 the arrowhead is actually covering his head.
10 MR MANSFIELD: I wonder if that could be
11 saved, please.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Of course, AM6.6.
13 A. Could I say, you know, that I think on this
14 particular photograph, I am not actually 100 per cent
15 sure, but it certainly looks like William.
16 MR MANSFIELD: We know from your statement --
17 I am not going to go through it in detail -- he was
18 still in fact wearing the clothes that day that he had
19 worn to the wedding the day before?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Could we move -- in fact it is a photograph,
22 again it is all part and parcel, as it were,
23 EP27.7.001. This has been marked up. I want to turn
24 on this one to -- I am not suggesting you marked it,
25 but there is a marking there, on the right-hand side
1 indicating, and there is a question mark "Alex Nash",
2 do you see that?
3 A. That is correct, yeah.
4 Q. As far as you are concerned, is that your
5 father?
6 A. No. We actually as a family spent many, many
7 hours with Donny Scott. We have seen this photograph
8 before and we, as family members, have never pointed
9 that particular individual out as being my father.
10 Q. Just for comparison purposes, as far as you
11 are concerned that is not him, could we have
12 EP26.7.001? There is another labelling of a man with
13 a cloth cap. Is this near where you met up with your
14 father on the day?
15 A. It -- that would have been across the Street.
16 Q. Across the street from where this photograph
17 is?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is this your father?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Just one more, please, EP26.21.001. This is
22 a photograph taken looking across Rossville Street
23 again, again with the wall at the Glenfada Park North
24 gable end is in the distance and your father has been
25 pointed out, or a figure purporting to be your father,
1 Alex Nash; is that your father in the photograph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Just summarising the position: on that day,
4 therefore, the only time you saw your father during the
5 course of events, that is starting off the beginning of
6 the march, all the way through, was just on the corner
7 that we have just looked at?
8 A. That is correct.
9 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.
10 Questioned by MR LAWSON
11 MR LAWSON: I represent a lot of the
12 soldiers, Mr Nash. Only one topic I want to ask you
13 about which relates to your recollection of what
14 happened after the Saracens came into or near to the
15 car park, that is all.
16 You have indicated to us in answer to
17 Mr Clarke that you have personally undertaken extensive
18 research into what happened on Bloody Sunday.
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And you have been in contact and in
21 discussion with a lot of witnesses?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it in any way difficult to separate out in
1 your own mind what you have heard since Bloody Sunday
2 from what in fact you personally saw? It must be
3 a little?
4 A. I thought about it very, very carefully
5 before I actually came in myself and gave a statement
6 to Eversheds. I thought about the statement which
7 I was to give and I think, as I have said, that this is
8 a true reflection of what I remember happened that day.
9 Q. I do not doubt, and I do not for a moment
10 suggest the contrary. I do not doubt that you are
11 doing your best and did do your best to put down what
12 you actually remember, do you follow that, so I am not
13 attacking you, I am trying to understand the basis for
14 you giving this evidence.
15 In the course of your extensive research,
16 Mr Nash, you will have appreciated that quite a number
17 of people, as this Inquiry has heard and will further
18 hear, speak of soldiers arriving in the courtyard and
19 conducting an arrest operation, chasing after people,
20 beating them up, snatching them, carrying them back to
21 Saracens; you are aware of these stories, are you not?
22 A. I am not aware of that actually happening.
23 Q. No, no, but you have heard that, those
24 accounts surely in your extensive research?
25 A. I have not heard accounts of anybody being
1 arrested or snatched in the back of the High Flats.
2 Q. Have you not?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you heard any accounts in your extensive
5 research about soldiers chasing after people in the
6 courtyard of the Rossville Flats?
7 A. Not chasing after people in the back of the
8 Rossville Flats.
9 Q. You presumably have heard in your extensive
10 research some people who have spoken, as you do now, of
11 soldiers immediately firing on de-bussing?
12 A. That is my memory.
13 Q. You have heard that from one or two other
14 people too, have you not?
15 A. I probably have, yeah, yeah.
16 Q. I do not wish either to exaggerate it or to
17 minimise the impact of your evidence; in essence, your
18 evidence and recollection, is this correct, two Pigs
19 arrive?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Soldiers get out of both of them?
22 A. I am not aware of what happened on the Pig
23 that was further on. I was not aware.
24 Q. But soldiers certainly out of the first one?
25 A. Out of the one that landed into the back of
1 the High Flats, yes.
2 Q. It came further in that was shown on the
3 photograph?
4 A. My memory tells me it did, yeah.
5 Q. And some or all of them immediately firing,
6 and firing from the hip?
7 A. My memory is of a volley of four shots.
8 I was automatically attracted to one soldier. I seen
9 a recoil or jerk and at the same time a puff of smoke.
10 I could have been observing all four, but my memory at
11 this particular moment tells me one.
12 Q. Were you aware, sir, of any baton rounds
13 being fired by soldiers on their de-bussing from one or
14 other of the Saracens?
15 A. That could have been. As I say, you know
16 what I mean, the puff of smoke could have been from --
17 Q. The baton guns?
18 A. The baton gun.
19 MR LAWSON: That is very fair.
20 Thank you, Mr Nash.
21 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, do you have any
22 further questions?
23 MR CLARKE: No, I do not, thank you very
24 much.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Nash, thank you very much
1 indeed for coming here to assist this Inquiry. We will
2 stop. We have Mr Higgins after lunch and we will start
3 again at ten to one, please.
4 (The witness withdrew)
5 (12.00 pm)
6 (The luncheon adjournment)
7 (12.50 pm)
8 MR DESMOND HIGGINS, affirmed
9 Questioned by MR CLARKE
10 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Higgins, if you look to
11 your right, you will see who is talking to you. I am
12 the Chairman of the Tribunal. The questions will be
13 asked by the barristers who sit in front of me. All
14 I would ask you to do, please, is to try and remember
15 to keep your face more or less where it is now in
16 relation to that microphone in front of you so that
17 everybody is able to hear what you have to say.
18 MR CLARKE: Mr Higgins, do you have with you
19 your statement to this Tribunal of 19th June 1999?
20 A. Yes, I have, yeah.
21 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
22 the best of your knowledge and belief?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. I want to come, if I may, in paragraph 6 of
25 your statement to the point at which you remember
1 standing at the position that you have marked with a
2 "B" at the back of the houses or shops to the south of
3 William Street, facing in a southerly direction with
4 your back facing in a southerly direction and your face
5 pressed against the wall of the building to shelter
6 from the gas.
7 You describe, if we go to the top of the next
8 page, how you were in that position for about five to
9 ten minutes when you suddenly heard the sound of
10 Saracens revving their engines, spun round and saw one
11 of the Saracens and thought that it was a snatch squad
12 carrying out an arrest operation; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that is it.
14 Q. When you first saw the Saracen, where was it?
15 A. It was just driving in towards the back of
16 the flats, just into the courtyard.
17 Q. Was it in Rossville Street itself?
18 A. Well, it was making its way from
19 Rossville Street across the rough ground in towards
20 the, in towards the courtyard just.
21 Q. You describe in paragraphs 7 and 8 how you
22 began to run across the waste ground with the people
23 who had been standing around you and how the Saracen
24 came to an abrupt halt at the position that you have
25 marked as "C", which is at AH71.10, if we look at
1 that. The position that you have marked is just to the
2 south of a line that goes to the southwest corner of
3 the buildings on Chamberlain Street.
4 When you saw that Saracen moving to that
5 point, had you seen any soldiers apart from the
6 Saracen?
7 A. None at all, no.
8 Q. Is that the only Saracen that you recall
9 seeing?
10 A. Well, I believe I seen one just parked at
11 the, it is, um, just at -- before you come to the
12 entrance, to the back of the courtyard, more there out
13 on the road on Rossville Street itself.
14 Q. On Rossville Street?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. We have seen from the pictures that there was
17 a Saracen which ended up at the mouth of the car park
18 of the flats, but also one Saracen that turned off
19 approximately in the position of Pilot Row and ended up
20 facing the building that I am pointing to at the corner
21 of Eden Place.
22 Were you conscious of the movement of that
23 Saracen?
24 A. I cannot remember it, no.
25 Q. May we come to AH71.2, paragraphs 8 to 11?
1 You describe how you continued running
2 towards the exit between blocks 1 and 2, although the
3 Saracen had stopped in front of you and you describe
4 how, as you were running past the Saracen, a soldier
5 got out of the left-hand side of the vehicle and
6 immediately began firing live rounds from the hip,
7 shooting with one hand; is that what you saw?
8 A. Yes, that is it.
9 Q. In which direction was he firing?
10 A. He was firing towards the gap between two
11 blocks of flats, the one in Joseph Place and
12 Rossville Street.
13 Q. Approximately how many rounds did he fire?
14 A. I cannot remember at all.
15 Q. Did you see anybody fall in consequence?
16 A. Not at that particular time, no.
17 Q. And how do you know they were live rounds?
18 A. Well, from -- I suppose from living here
19 just, knowing the different sounds, either guns or
20 plastic bullet guns or whatever.
21 Q. Are you sure he was shooting -- how many
22 rounds did he fire?
23 A. I cannot say, no.
24 Q. You are quite sure that your memory is not at
25 fault in relation to this? The manoeuvre that you
1 describe of firing a number of live rounds, holding a
2 rifle with one hand would, I think, be pretty
3 difficult; are you quite sure that you saw that?
4 A. 100 per cent, yeah.
5 Q. You describe running past the soldier and as
6 you ran, looking over your shoulder and seeing him
7 firing from the waist towards the crowd; is that right?
8 A. That is right, yeah.
9 Q. When you say "in a southwesterly direction",
10 does that mean in the direction in which you were
11 going, that is to say between blocks 1 and 2?
12 A. Yes, in that general direction, yes.
13 Q. So if I have understood you correctly, you
14 were running into the direction in which he was firing?
15 A. That is -- you know, running towards that
16 direction, yeah.
17 Q. Did you not fear you might be shot by
18 somebody who was firing live rounds from the hip in
19 that direction?
20 A. Well, it seemed to be the only way out.
21 Q. What about --
22 A. The only, the only exit that --
23 Q. What about the other exit on the other side
24 between blocks 2 and 3?
25 A. Well, that seemed to be the nearest, the
1 nearest exit.
2 Q. You describe, in paragraph 10, how you were
3 already about five yards past the soldier when he began
4 shooting. Are you referring there to the second time
5 when he began shooting?
6 A. No, I would say it is probably the time, the
7 same time just. It already says it was immediately,
8 immediately began firing, but that was ...
9 Q. You say in paragraph 9 that as you were
10 running past the Saracen the soldier got out and began
11 to fire live rounds from the hip; in paragraph 10, that
12 you ran past him and as you ran, you looked over your
13 shoulder and saw the soldier firing from his waist
14 towards the crowd.
15 Are those two different firings, or is this
16 all described in the same incident?
17 A. Just the same incident, because the five
18 yards or so maybe taken a second or two to cover just.
19 Q. You then get through the exit at block 1 and
20 block 2 and felt a great sense of relief. Were there a
21 sizable number of people who were doing the same thing?
22 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
23 Q. You say in paragraph 12, if we may look at
24 that, that you stayed in and around the gap for about
25 five minutes, thinking that you were safe. You say
1 then:
2 "I never heard the shots, but I saw
3 Mickey Bradley go down, I saw him keel forward, about
4 ten yards from where I was standing, just through the
5 gap in the flats near the corner of block 2."
6 If we look at your map at AH71.10, you, as
7 I understand it, have by this stage got to somewhere
8 between block 1 and block 2; is that right?
9 A. Yes, that is right, yes.
10 Q. You are looking through that gap into the car
11 park; is that right?
12 A. That is it, yeah.
13 Q. When you saw Mickey Bradley go down, what way
14 was he facing?
15 A. I think he was facing towards the opening
16 itself there just.
17 Q. Can somebody take this arrow off the screen;
18 I do not quite know how it has got there.
19 You think that he was facing towards the
20 opening, in other words, facing towards you?
21 A. I cannot really remember exactly, no.
22 Q. I wonder if we could have on the screen
23 P205: we can see on this photograph the gap between
24 blocks 1 and 2.
25 Are you able, by reference to this
1 photograph, to indicate where Michael Bradley was when
2 you saw him fall?
3 A. I think he was about (marked with a blue
4 arrow).
5 Q. About there?
6 A. Maybe over, no. Could you remove it just
7 again?
8 Q. Yes. Do you mean where the blue arrow
9 presently now is on the photograph?
10 A. More towards where the lorry is there just.
11 Q. More towards, what, sorry?
12 A. More towards up there (marked with a blue
13 arrow). It is away again.
14 Q. Let me try for you. Do you mean about there?
15 A. Round about, yeah, round about that district,
16 that area, yeah.
17 Q. That sort of area?
18 LORD SAVILLE: I thought you said a little
19 nearer, I may have misheard you, that lorry we can see
20 on the photograph?
21 A. It was actually more near the lorry, yeah.
22 It was in that general area, yeah.
23 MR CLARKE: Do you mean it to be a little
24 nearer the lorry?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Let us then change it. About there?
2 A. More in that direction, yeah.
3 Q. Let us preserve that as AH71.11.
4 If we go back to AH71.2, paragraph 12, you
5 say there that you saw him keel forward, about ten
6 yards from where you were standing and saw bloodstains
7 on his stomach; is that right?
8 A. Yeah, that is right, yeah.
9 Q. You say that he was lying on his back and
10 seemed to be leaning on his left elbow?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. You did actually see him fall, did you, and
13 then adopt that position?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. You then describe how two men went over to
16 him and took him to a house at the north end of
17 Joseph Place.
18 Which route did they take to get there; how
19 did they get to the house?
20 A. In through the -- I believe it was in through
21 the gap in the -- in between the two flats.
22 Q. So passing right by you, is that the
23 position?
24 A. Well, I cannot remember them actually passing
25 by me, but it was outside when they did actually carry
1 him through in.
2 Q. May we come over the page to AH71.3 and take
3 it down to the end of paragraph 16? You describe in
4 paragraph 11 how, at the same time you also heard
5 Bernadette Devlin speaking from the lorry, shouting
6 over a megaphone to tell people to get down.
7 When you say "at the same time", was this
8 before you saw Michael Bradley fall, or after you saw
9 him fall or literally at the same time?
10 A. I believe it was after it.
11 Q. You think it was after?
12 A. I think it was, yeah.
13 Q. Apart from the shots from the soldier which
14 you saw when you were running to the gap between
15 block 1 and 2, had you heard any other shots?
16 A. I cannot recall any shots, no.
17 Q. In paragraph 14 you say that there were still
18 a large number of people in the area south of block 2
19 and more of them coming through the alleyway and people
20 were going in and buying sweets from Molly Barr's sweet
21 shop?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Are these people who had come through the
24 alleyway?
25 A. They were just people just milling around,
1 milling around the outside of the shops just.
2 Q. These are a series of people who have been
3 fleeing through the alleyway after shots have been
4 fired; were they then going to buy sweets?
5 A. Well, it was, it could have been to buy
6 cigarettes or whatever, but there was a sweet shop
7 just.
8 Q. You describe staying with the crowd which was
9 milling around. Whereabouts did you stay; where did
10 you remain?
11 A. Just out round where the shop was there, just
12 at the Barr's shop, just underneath, I think there was
13 a canopy. There was a canopy just over the top of them
14 shops.
15 Q. You describe how about ten minutes after
16 Michael Bradley was shot, you noticed a man on the
17 ground about two yards from the telephone box who had
18 been shot and who you were later told was
19 Barney McGuigan.
20 Had you seen him before you saw his body on
21 the ground?
22 A. No, I cannot remember seeing him, no,
23 I cannot.
24 Q. We know that at the south of block 1 two
25 people fell: one is Barney McGuigan and the other is a
1 boy called Hugh Gilmore whose body was at the corner of
2 the gable end of block 1. Did you see him at any
3 stage?
4 A. I did not, no.
5 Q. If we go to your map, if we may, at AH71.10,
6 you are somewhere around the gap between block 1 and
7 block 2 and then underneath the canopy?
8 A. Yeah, that is right.
9 Q. Did you ever see, or look to see what was
10 going on towards the east, towards Fahan Street steps?
11 A. I cannot recall noticing anything at all, no.
12 Q. Not aware of any activity?
13 A. Just people moving around, trying to get out
14 of the area just.
15 Q. After seeing Bernard McGuigan's body, you
16 went, did you, along the little alleyway that leads --
17 A. Behind Joseph Place, yeah.
18 Q. Along the back of Joseph Place. When you did
19 so, were there other people doing the same?
20 A. There was a total line just.
21 Q. I did not quite hear?
22 A. A total line of people just.
23 Q. And you crawled to the bottom of the alleyway
24 and probably went across Fahan Street?
25 A. Fahan Street, yes.
1 Q. In the direction of the Wells; is that right?
2 A. That is it.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 Could we turn, please, to AH71.9? This is a
5 typed copy of your statement made at the time. Do you
6 remember making that statement?
7 A. I remember making it now, yeah.
8 Q. Do you know where you made it?
9 A. Um, Holy Child School, I believe it was.
10 Q. Do you know when you made it?
11 A. I believe it was maybe a day or two after
12 Bloody Sunday, I cannot remember exactly.
13 Q. Let us look briefly at what you are recorded
14 as having said:
15 "On Sunday 30th January I was standing on the
16 waste ground at the corner of Rossville Street behind
17 the McLaughlins or the chemist shop in William Street.
18 I had my face against the wall to protect myself from
19 the gas. I heard someone shouting to run which
20 suggested to me that the army were coming in. I turned
21 and ran towards the wire around the Rossville Street.
22 I then ran into the car park of the flats."
23 That is all consistent, I think with your
24 present recollection?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. "At this stage I did not know whether the
2 army were in or not. I ran with the crowd. I was
3 going through the car park when a Saracen drew into the
4 Market and knocked somebody down."
5 Do you have any recollection of the Saracen
6 knocking somebody down?
7 A. I do not recollect it now, but I believe when
8 I made this statement I believe it was a true statement
9 at the time.
10 Q. "Then one of the soldiers jumped out of the
11 Saracen and began hitting the person who had been
12 knocked down."
13 Do you have any recollection of that?
14 A. I do not recall, I do not know if -- I cannot
15 understand how I cannot recall that, but ...
16 Q. "I ran on and just as I arrived at the wall
17 [of the] childrens playground I heard shooting behind
18 me so I ran into the nearest garden."
19 That reference to "arriving at the wall of
20 the childrens playground", would suggest, would it not,
21 that instead of going to the alleyway of blocks
22 1 and 2, you went to the alleyway between blocks
23 2 and 3, which is where the children's playground is?
24 A. Right, I must 'a came down the side of the
25 wall or something then -- I definitely came through
1 blocks 1 and 2, there was a -- the bottom exit.
2 Q. You have a clear recollection of that, have
3 you?
4 A. I definitely came through the bottom exit,
5 yeah.
6 Q. If one looks back at the sentence, it
7 describes you as arriving at the wall of the children's
8 playground, hearing shooting behind you, "so I ran into
9 the nearest garden".
10 The nearest garden would be Joseph Place,
11 would it not?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. I wonder whether your memory has played you
14 tricks, because you then say in this statement:
15 "I saw the body of somebody called Bradley
16 and another body being carried into a house".
17 We know that Michael Bradley was carried into
18 a house in Joseph Place. Are you still sure that you
19 were at the block 1 and 2 gap?
20 A. I am positive I was at 1 and 2, yeah.
21 Q. "The bodies seemed to be coming from the area
22 of the car park at Rossville Flats. The houses where
23 the bodies were being taken to are on the left-hand
24 side of Rossville Street when coming from
25 William Street. There was still shooting going on.
1 Then there was a lull in the shooting -- I got out of
2 the garden, and ran behind the houses along the wall at
3 the back of the houses."
4 That, too, suggests, does it not, that you
5 were in the garden in Joseph Place and ran round the
6 back of the Joseph Place wall to the alley at the back?
7 A. Right, yeah.
8 Q. But you think that you came from, having been
9 standing underneath the canopy of the shops, in the
10 middle block?
11 A. Well, the shops and the garden would only be
12 15, 20 yards -- you would be milling back and forward
13 just in that general area.
14 Q. What there is not any reference to in this
15 statement is of some soldier firing with one hand from
16 the hip.
17 A. I cannot understand how I have -- when I went
18 to make me second statement now, if, um, -- I never
19 bothered reading my original statement, which I had it
20 and all and I thought that whenever I made my second
21 statement, it would have been a carbon copy of the
22 first one. I cannot understand how I have made a
23 difference in the two statements.
24 Q. It does seem rather surprising if what you
25 really saw was somebody firing from the hip in the
1 manner that you have described, that it does not appear
2 in your contemporaneous statement?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Is it possible that is something where your
5 memory has played you tricks?
6 A. Possible, I would say, yeah.
7 Q. There is not also any reference in your
8 contemporary statement to having seen Bernard McGuigan;
9 do you know why that is?
10 A. I cannot understand either, but my first
11 statement was taken justa sorta very early after the
12 event and, um, it is the time taken to take that first
13 statement was probably five to ten minutes was spent
14 taking my first statement, whereas the second statement
15 was the detailed statement over two hours or so. I do
16 not know if it would make any difference to it.
17 Q. I want to put to you one possibility to
18 consider: a possible reason for the absence of any
19 reference in your statement in 1972 to seeing
20 Bernard McGuigan might lie in the fact that according
21 to this statement, you appear to have been in the
22 garden of Joseph Place towards the east, which is some
23 way away from where Bernard McGuigan was at the bottom
24 of block 1?
25 A. I would say I would be about 25, 30 yards
1 away from it.
2 Q. You have a recollection --
3 A. Sorry, no, carry on.
4 Q. Do not let me interrupt you.
5 A. I was in the general area of where
6 Barry McGuigan was shot and the corner house on
7 Joseph Place would have been 25-yard radius of --
8 Q. You have a recollection of having seen him on
9 the day as opposed to seeing photographs of him
10 subsequently?
11 A. 100 per cent, yes, 100 per cent.
12 Q. Thank you, those are my questions.
13 Questioned by MR KENNEDY
14 MR KENNEDY: Very briefly, Mr Higgins, my
15 name is Kennedy and I represent Mr Bradley. I want to
16 suggest to you you are slightly confused about the way
17 Mr Bradley was taken away from the car park. I would
18 suggest to you in fact he was taken between blocks 2
19 and 3?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. That could be possible?
22 A. It could be possible. It was just whenever
23 he was getting taken away, it was from the right, you
24 know, out in the front of the block, the block on
25 Fahan Street, the block on Joseph Place there and he
1 was just getting carried past at the time.
2 Q. I think, in fairness, you say today you do
3 not really remember them passing you?
4 A. I do not -- well, I remember him passing --
5 getting carried past, like, I could just sorta -- there
6 was two people carrying him and his body was actually
7 sorta (indicating) bent in the middle just, you know,
8 he was getting carried by the feet and under his arms.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
11 MR CLARKE: Sir, only one matter. My name is
12 Peter Clarke and I appear on behalf of a number of
13 troops.
14 Sir, can I make it clear, I do not want to
15 duplicate the examination of Mr Clarke and the points
16 he makes about the firing in the car park.
17 Mr Higgins, can I make one matter clear: you
18 have a recollection in the Rossville car park that you
19 say may be possibly faulty, about firing from the hip?
20 A. No, I am 100 per cent certain of that point.
21 I am certain of, certain of it.
22 Q. Then in your NICRA -- in your statement of
23 1972, you mention seeing no shots at all?
24 A. I cannot understand the discrepancy.
25 Q. Is that a recollection of the shooting that
1 you found has become more clear as time went by?
2 A. I cannot understand why -- the discrepancy
3 is, it is, just cannot understand it.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Questioned by MR MOSS
6 MR MOSS: My name is Moss and I appear on
7 behalf of some of the soldiers as well, Mr Higgins.
8 Can I ask you to look at one document; the
9 reference is W111?
10 Could we highlight, please, the very last
11 entry on that page? Mr Higgins, could I make clear
12 there is absolutely no reason why you should have seen
13 this document before. This is a transcript of army
14 communications on the day made by Mr Porter.
15 I would like you to look with me at serial
16 number 79. Ignore for the moment the army jargon that
17 appears at the beginning, but after that comes:
18 "Number 18 Demesne Avenue seems" -- and if
19 we could have the next page and highlight the top
20 -- "to be some sort of medical centre. Five nurses
21 have just left it."
22 You, at the time, lived in Demesne Gardens
23 which, as I understand it, was just round the corner
24 from Demesne Avenue?
25 A. Right, there is no number 18 Demesne Avenue,
1 it is all odd numbers.
2 Q. Were you aware of a house in a road just
3 around the corner from you being used as a medical
4 centre on the day of Bloody Sunday at all?
5 A. No, I was not, no.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Higgins, thank you very
7 much indeed for coming to give evidence to the
8 Inquiry. Thank you.
9 I think that in fact exhausts our witnesses
10 for the day. We have not had a bad week all things
11 said and done. We will return to the matter on Monday
12 at 9.30 and I understand that a list of next week's
13 witnesses has already been published.
14 MR CLARKE: Yes.
15 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much.
16 (1.20 pm)
17 (Proceedings adjourned until Monday, 26th
18 March 2001 at 9.30 am)
19 MS AGNES McGUINNESS, sworn
20 Questioned by MR CLARKE.............................. 1
21 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................. 17
22 Questioned by MR MOSS............................... 30
23 MRS ROISIN STEWART, sworn
24 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 33
25 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................. 57
1 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 74
2 MR JOHN NASH, sworn
3 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 75
4 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD.......................... 89
5 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................. 93
6 MR DESMOND HIGGINS, affirmed
7 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 97
8 Questioned by MR KENNEDY........................... 114
9 Questioned by MR P CLARKE.......................... 115
10 Questioned by MR MOSS.............................. 116