1 Wednesday, 21st March 2001
2 (9.35 am)
3 MR ALEXANDER McLAUGHLIN, sworn
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McLaughlin, if you look to
6 your right, I am the Chairman of the Tribunal. The
7 questions will come from the barristers who sit in
8 front of me. If you could just remember to keep your
9 face fairly close to that microphone in front of you,
10 more or less where it is at the moment, then we can all
11 hear what you have to say.
12 MR CLARKE: Mr McLaughlin, do you have with
13 you your statement to this Tribunal, 18th May 1999?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
16 the best of your knowledge and belief?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Because we have all read it, there are only
19 a limited number of questions that I want to ask you
20 about what is contained in your statement. Could we
21 first look at AM317.2, paragraphs 8 and 9? You
22 describe in paragraph 8 seeing the barrier being moved
23 and becoming worried that you would be arrested and
24 therefore running south down Chamberlain Street and in
25 paragraph 9, you describe how the street was packed
1 with people and you were side-stepping around them as
2 you ran south and that when you reached a point which
3 you have marked as F on your map, you were standing in
4 the middle of the road and heard automatic fire,
5 different to the sound of the rubber bullets that you
6 had heard earlier; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Had you heard automatic fire prior to
9 Bloody Sunday?
10 A. Outside of Bloody Sunday?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Whereabouts had you heard that?
14 A. On various occasions, you know, through
15 different disturbances in town.
16 Q. Was the automatic fire you heard on
17 Bloody Sunday similar to the type of automatic fire you
18 had heard before, or different?
19 A. I would just say similar.
20 Q. You say you cannot say precisely how many
21 shots you heard, although there were a lot. Were you
22 conscious of a series of bursts or something different?
23 A. I would describe it as a series of bursts,
24 yeah.
25 Q. And you say that you do not know where the
1 shots were coming from. Had you any idea of where the
2 sound was?
3 A. I would say from behind.
4 Q. You then describe running into the car park
5 of the flats. Could we have a look at AM317.3,
6 paragraphs 11 to 15? You describe, if I can summarise
7 it, running south across the car park and turning when
8 you got to a point that you have marked G and seeing
9 soldiers in various positions. You describe in
10 paragraph 12 looking around at the same point and
11 seeing Jack Duddy fall on the ground. You actually saw
12 him fall, did you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And at the time when he fell, were there
15 others around him?
16 A. At that particular time there was quite
17 a crowd.
18 Q. You describe then in paragraph 13 turning
19 back and seeing another Saracen and in paragraph 14
20 walking round that Saracen and heading towards the
21 alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 when there were a lot
22 of people running towards it and then in the end hiding
23 behind a low wall which you refer to in paragraph 15,
24 behind which you saw Mickey Bradley, who had already
25 been shot.
1 Can you help me on this: throughout the time
2 you are talking about in these paragraphs, that is to
3 say from the time that you got to the point you have
4 marked G to the time when you jumped over the wall and
5 found Mickey Bradley, was there still a crowd of people
6 in the car park or did there come a time when it had
7 thinned out or was even empty at the north end of it?
8 A. At the time I had jumped over the wall, yeah,
9 the crowd in the car park had diminished some.
10 Q. At that time were there people still trying
11 to get through the two gaps between the blocks?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But to the north, that is to say in the
14 direction in which you had come, what was the position
15 at that stage?
16 A. I would say at Chamberlain Street wall, there
17 was people taking cover behind that wall.
18 Q. But in the middle of the car park, what was
19 the position at that stage?
20 A. I really cannot remember.
21 Q. If we could go to AM317.4, you describe in
22 paragraphs 16 and 17 carrying Mickey Bradley through
23 the alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 and in the end
24 carrying him to a house in Joseph Place and then
25 subsequently you describe in paragraph 17 going out to
1 the body of what you later discovered to be
2 Barney McGuigan.
3 Then if we may come to paragraph 18, you
4 describe how the three of you, that is you and the two
5 other people who had gone out to the body, ran towards
6 the same house in Joseph Place and in the fourth line
7 you describe looking back west towards Rossville Street
8 from the letterbox of the house to which you had
9 returned and seeing another body on the ground lying on
10 his right-hand side facing east towards you, with his
11 back towards Rossville Street and his head towards
12 Free Derry Corner; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I would like to show you, if I may,
15 a photograph. Could we have photograph P330? This is
16 a photograph taken I think some time after
17 Bloody Sunday. We can see in the photograph the
18 Joseph Place houses. Here is the north block and there
19 is the south block and there is Free Derry Corner.
20 (Indicating). Would you be able to indicate on that
21 photograph where approximately you saw the body to
22 which you are referring?
23 A. It actually would not be in that photograph,
24 um, it would be more at the corner of the Rossville
25 flat.
1 Q. Could we then have photograph P198? Would
2 you be able to indicate where on that photograph you
3 saw the body to which you are referring?
4 A. Here. (Marked with blue arrow - AM317.9).
5 Q. It is there, is it?
6 A. Yeah, that general area.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Could we preserve that
8 image as AM317.9? Let us leave that there on the
9 screen for the moment.
10 You say in your statement that you do not
11 know whether this was the third man that was running
12 with you, although you assumed that it was. Did you
13 know then or do you know now the identity of any of the
14 two people with whom you were running?
15 A. No, I do not.
16 Q. The spot that you have described as the place
17 where you saw the body on the ground does not look to
18 me, but correct me if I have misunderstood it, as if it
19 was in the direct route from where Barney McGuigan's
20 body was to Joseph Place. We know that Barney
21 McGuigan's body was somewhere where I am about to begin
22 an arrow and if you go to Joseph Place, you go in
23 roughly the direction that I am showing in the red
24 arrow that is now on the screen. (Indicating).
25 If the person that you saw there was the
1 person who had been one of your companions running with
2 you towards Joseph Place, do you know how he came to
3 fall in the spot that you have mentioned?
4 A. The house that I was in on Joseph Place, can
5 I indicate this on the screen?
6 Q. Yes, please, let me take the red arrow off.
7 A. It is this first house, and I agree with you
8 where Barney McGuigan's body was and we came from this
9 first house across and, you know, then we returned to
10 the house and returned to the house and looking through
11 the letterbox, there was definitely somebody lying in
12 this area. I am not suggesting that the person lying
13 in this area had actually been shot or even wounded,
14 you know, in all probability it could have been
15 somebody just taking cover. (Indicating).
16 MR CLARKE: Thank you. Those are the
17 questions that I have.
18 Questioned by MR FINNEGAN
19 MR FINNEGAN: Mr McLaughlin, can you see me?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. My name is Kevin Finnegan, I am appearing for
22 some of the families of the deceased who were shot on
23 the day. I want to ask you about one area of your
24 evidence. The shots you initially heard in
25 Chamberlain Street, was it your impression that the
1 shooting was not actually in Chamberlain Street that
2 you were hearing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You came to the conclusion, or certainly when
5 you were making your statement, that that was automatic
6 fire?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was that because the shots were so close
9 together?
10 A. Yeah, there was quite a bit of shooting at
11 that time.
12 Q. And although you say that you were quite
13 satisfied that it was not rubber bullets, you knew it
14 was real gunfire?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could it be they were single shots from
17 different rifles, but close together?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. One other matter: then you heard further
20 shooting, after a lull, when you got out into the car
21 park; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the shooting you heard there, that again
24 was in rapid succession?
25 A. Yeah, but not necessarily from the same --
1 Q. You say in your statement:
2 "I cannot say whether I heard SLRs or
3 machine-guns."
4 In your mind when you were making the
5 statement, would machine-guns have been automatic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But even when you were out in Rossville
8 Street, you were not certain whether the shots that you
9 were hearing would have been single shots or automatic?
10 A. No.
11 MR FINNEGAN: Thank you.
12 MR LAWSON: Sir, we have no questions. May
13 I just mention a matter?
14 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, of course.
15 MR LAWSON: We had anticipated that this
16 witness was to be called solely to deal with one issue,
17 that was what we were told, and no oral evidence was to
18 be adduced from him, other than in relation to
19 paragraph 18. We were a little surprised that did not
20 transpire to be the position and perhaps it is a matter
21 that should be taken up administratively or with the
22 solicitor to the Inquiry because obviously one plans,
23 as you can appreciate, and one has to plan with some
24 care for these occasions and we were given to believe
25 that we would not be permitted to ask any questions
1 other than in relation to paragraph 18. As it happens
2 Mr Clarke has clarified that matter and we do not seek
3 to do so.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Does anyone else want to ask
5 any questions of Mr McLaughlin? Do you have any more
6 questions, Mr Clarke?
7 MR CLARKE: No, thank you.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you, Mr McLaughlin, very
9 much indeed for coming to help us.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 LORD SAVILLE: I think we have Mr Delpinto
12 next, is that right?
13 MR CLARKE: We do.
14 MR TONY DELPINTO, sworn
15 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Delpinto, if you look to
17 your right you will see that it is the Chairman
18 speaking to you. Questions will come from the
19 barristers who sit in front of me. Could you remember
20 to keep your face fairly close to the microphone, more
21 or less where it is now, and we can all hear what you
22 have to say.
23 MR ROXBURGH: Mr Delpinto, do you have with
24 you a copy of your statement to this Inquiry of 29th
25 June 1999?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That is at AD36.1. Could we have that on the
3 screen, please. Are the contents of that statement
4 true to the best of your knowledge and belief?
5 A. They are.
6 Q. You describe in paragraphs 2 to 4 of that
7 statement how you made your way with the march as far
8 as Free Derry Corner; is that right?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. When you were there you heard the sound of
11 armoured cars?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. And the sound of bullets?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. And you thought at first that they must be
16 rubber bullets?
17 A. (Witness nodding).
18 Q. Somebody shouted, "Get down, it is live
19 ammunition"?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And you looked round and you saw the armoured
22 vehicles coming south down Rossville Street?
23 A. In the distance.
24 Q. Are you clear in your own mind that you had
25 already heard the shooting at the time when you saw the
1 armoured vehicles, or is your recollection not as
2 precise as that?
3 A. Do you mean before I seen the vehicles or
4 after I seen the vehicles?
5 Q. I am asking you whether it was before or
6 after or whether you cannot remember?
7 A. Well, I remember, I remember somebody
8 shouting there was shooting. As I turned round I seen
9 armoured vehicles coming towards me.
10 Q. But somebody shouted that there was shooting,
11 did you hear the shooting yourself?
12 A. I heard cracks, what I assumed to be
13 shooting, I heard loud cracks.
14 Q. And you turned round and you saw armoured
15 vehicles coming down Rossville Street?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. At that stage. Did you have any means of
18 telling whether those were the first armoured vehicles
19 to come down Rossville Street or whether some might
20 have come down before the ones that you saw?
21 A. I honestly do not remember.
22 Q. In paragraph 5 of your statement you say that
23 you went in to the Rossville Flats?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. That was through the main entrance on
1 Rossville Street?
2 A. On Rossville Street.
3 Q. And you spent about ten minutes in there on
4 the first floor?
5 A. Could have been ten minutes, could have been
6 a bit longer.
7 Q. And after that you looked out from the
8 verandah and I think you saw the body of Bernard
9 McGuigan?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. During that period of ten minutes or perhaps
12 a bit more when you were inside block 1 of the
13 Rossville Flats, did you see anybody else who had been
14 injured?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can I come on now, please, to paragraph 11 of
17 your statement, where you refer to the statement that
18 you made apparently on the day itself? It is right, is
19 it, that you remember making that statement at the
20 time?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Is it right, in fact, that you made it on the
23 evening of Bloody Sunday itself?
24 A. That I am not too sure about. Um, I know
25 that after, after the events when we were just told to
1 go as soon as possible to make a statement to the
2 Widgery Tribunal. There were certain locations around
3 the town where people had to go to make their statement
4 and I remember it was in Saint Patrick's Primary
5 School, Pennyburn. But I honestly do not remember the
6 date.
7 Q. If we look at the statement itself at AD36.4,
8 we see at the top it gives your name. Then I think it
9 says "14/2" underneath. I think that is probably the
10 14 is your age and it may be that it was meant to say
11 14 and a half, because we have the original manuscript
12 of the statement and so I think that is not the date
13 14th February, that is your age at the time and so the
14 date underneath, 30th January 1972, may be the date on
15 which the statement was taken, or it may just be to
16 indicate that it was a statement about the events of
17 that day?
18 A. Uh-huh. I do not remember giving a statement
19 on the day.
20 Q. Do you remember who asked you to make
21 a statement?
22 A. No, I do not.
23 Q. If we look down at the foot of the page, it
24 is recorded that you signed the statement and the
25 witness appears to have been a lady called
1 Maruna McGirr, do you remember her?
2 A. No, I just remember there was somebody there
3 taking the statement at the time.
4 Q. Do you have, as it were, a mental picture of
5 the scene as you gave that statement?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Can you describe the scene for us, please?
8 A. It was in, um, the assembly hall of a school
9 and there was, there was lots of different tables
10 around with, with a person taking statements at each
11 table.
12 Q. Can you say approximately how many people
13 were giving statements at the same time in that room?
14 A. Giving statements?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Dozens.
17 Q. So you sat down, did you, at a table with
18 this lady?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. What was the procedure for making the
21 statement?
22 A. Well, she just asked me to say as I seen what
23 happened and she took notes.
24 Q. Did she ask you particular questions as you
25 went along or did you just say what you had to say and
1 she wrote it down?
2 A. Um, a bit of both, I think.
3 Q. Then she wrote the statement out in longhand,
4 presumably?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Did she show you what she had written?
7 A. She did.
8 Q. Did she give you an opportunity to read
9 through it?
10 A. I cannot remember, but I remember signing it.
11 Q. Can you remember roughly how long it took to
12 take your statement?
13 A. Half an hour, maybe.
14 Q. If we go back to your statement to this
15 Inquiry at paragraph 11 on page AD36.2, you say at the
16 end of that paragraph:
17 "Of course I was only 14 at the time and
18 I remember the people taking the statements were trying
19 to hurry us along because they had so many people to
20 see, so I may have been confused."
21 Do you recall whether it was the lady who
22 actually took the statement who was trying to hurry you
23 along or somebody else?
24 A. I cannot remember.
25 Q. Do you recall whether at the time you felt
1 that as a result of being hurried along there was
2 either anything that had been left out of your
3 statement that you would have wished to put in it or
4 anything in it that you would have wished to change or
5 correct?
6 A. It is quite possible.
7 Q. It is possible, but you do not have any
8 specific recollection, is that what you are saying?
9 A. I do not.
10 Q. If I ask you whether at the time you signed
11 the statement you were happy with it, you are not in
12 a position to say?
13 A. No.
14 Q. In paragraphs 12 to 14 of your statement to
15 this Inquiry, you say a number of things about matters
16 of detail in the statement that you made at the time.
17 You explain how quite a bit of that detail is no longer
18 within your recollection?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Or at any rate it was not at the time that
21 you made your statement to this Inquiry. Since you
22 made your statement to this Inquiry, has any of the
23 detail in your original statement become any clearer in
24 your recollection, anything come back to you as you
25 have thought about it?
1 A. Not really, um, the part about, where I says
2 I was in someone's house, I do not ever remember being
3 in anybody's house.
4 Q. That is, as you say, in your statement to
5 this Inquiry?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. There is nothing else that you have thought
8 about that has prompted any recollection?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In that case, can I ask you about one part of
11 the statement that you made at the time. If we go to
12 AD36.4. If you look about roughly ten lines down,
13 there is a passage that says:
14 "Soldiers jumped out of the back of the
15 Saracens and they seemed to shoot straight into the
16 crowd. I think one of them used a machine-gun."
17 Before I ask you a question about that, can
18 we look back to see what you say about that in your
19 statement to this Inquiry at AD36.2, paragraph 12. If
20 I pick that up four lines down, you say:
21 "I do not remember the soldiers shooting
22 straight into the crowd."
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. "It may be that it did happen and that
25 I remembered it at the time, but I just do not remember
1 it now. I certainly do not recall a machine-gun, but
2 maybe it says that in the statement because I was just
3 describing a lot of cracks, rapid fire, but it
4 definitely was not a Tommy gun."
5 Can I ask you this first: at the time you
6 were 14 and a half years old?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Would you have known the difference between
9 a machine-gun and a lot of rapid single shots?
10 A. Probably not.
11 Q. Does that mean that you might have used the
12 terms interchangeably yourself?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. So it is possible, is it, that you would have
15 used the term "machine-gun" when what you were actually
16 seeking to describe --
17 A. Was rapid fire.
18 Q. Is it also possible, or are you not
19 suggesting this: that the person who took the statement
20 might have misunderstood what you were saying and
21 written down "machine-gun" when what you had actually
22 been describing was rapid single shots?
23 A. Yeah.
24 MR ROXBURGH: That is possible as well.
25 Thank you.
1 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
2 MR GLASGOW: Mr Delpinto, very few matters.
3 Could we look at your statement again, the one you made
4 in 1972 which we have as AD36.4. It is just the
5 section that my learned friend was just asking you
6 about. Can I ask you two questions: the Saracens or
7 the armoured cars that you were looking down on from
8 the flats, where were they?
9 A. No, I was not looking down on them from the
10 flats, no.
11 Q. I am sorry, in this statement, perhaps we can
12 clear it up, in this statement you said you had seen
13 everything from the flats, I think, had you not?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If you look at the first line -- it is not
16 a criticism, because I think a lot of people did not
17 want to say they had been on the march and I am not
18 criticising you for that?
19 A. No, I do not -- I was on the march, but
20 I ended up in the flats.
21 Q. Yes, if you look at the top line of this
22 sentence, it says:
23 "I was on the second floor of the
24 Rossville Flats. I was looking out ..."
25 I think the statement that you gave at the
1 time, for whatever reason -- I am not criticising --
2 gave the impression that everything you had seen you
3 had seen from the flats, but you did not mean that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. At least you are clear today that when you
6 saw the Saracens you were on the ground?
7 A. On the ground.
8 Q. Looking at the passage and the way you
9 describe them:
10 "I saw Saracens coming across
11 Rossville Street ... Soldiers jumped out of the back."
12 Where were they when the soldiers jumped out
13 of the back?
14 A. As I have already stated in the new
15 statement, I do not remember seeing soldiers jumping
16 out of the back of the Saracens but I remember Saracens
17 coming towards the crowd when we were standing between
18 Rossville Flats and Free Derry Corner, waiting for the
19 speeches to start.
20 Q. Did you see soldiers beside them or doing
21 anything with them at all, or simply see them going
22 along?
23 A. I just seen the armoured vehicles coming
24 along.
25 Q. You simply saw them coming along?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Did you see where they went as they come
3 along?
4 A. They come along Rossville Street, towards,
5 towards the crowd.
6 Q. Where did they go?
7 A. I do not remember, because I made my way in
8 to the Rossville Flats then, that is the part that says
9 I was looking out of the window, it was the wee
10 verandah linking the two blocks of flats, that is the
11 one I was referring to.
12 Q. When you were on the ground by Free Derry
13 Corner you see the Saracens coming along?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. You then go to the flats and the second
16 floor?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. You then look out and you see the Saracens
19 again?
20 A. No, no. When I refer to seeing them, that
21 was when they come towards the crowd. It was then
22 I moved myself into the flats. Once you are in the
23 flats it is a wee enclosed verandah with three wee
24 small windows. You could not see anything there,
25 except what you are seeing through the slit.
1 Q. Did you see anything when you got into the
2 flats?
3 A. No, apart from the body of Barney McGuigan
4 when I look down the ways.
5 Q. The sentence, the phrase you have in this
6 statement we are looking at on the screen, "I think one
7 of them used a machine-gun"?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Were you there describing simply a noise that
10 you had heard?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Or something you had seen?
13 A. No, something I had heard.
14 Q. Just the noise?
15 A. Yeah.
16 MR GLASGOW: Thank you very much.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Roxburgh, do you have any
18 further questions?
19 MR ROXBURGH: No further questions, thank
20 you.
21 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Delpinto, thank you very
22 much indeed for coming to help us.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 LORD SAVILLE: Our next witness I think is
25 Ms Coyle. I believe she has only just arrived and
1 perhaps she wants a few moments to be given our tuition
2 downstairs, to work the machine and so on. We will
3 rise for a few minutes.
4 (10.05 am)
5 (A short adjournment)
6 (10.15 am)
7 MS ANTOINETTE COYLE, sworn
8 Questioned by MR CLARKE
9 LORD SAVILLE: Ms Coyle, I do not know
10 whether you have been here before to hear what I say,
11 it is simply to say that the questions will be asked by
12 the barristers who sit in front of me and if you could
13 just remember to keep your face reasonably close to
14 that microphone in front of you, more or less as you
15 have it now, then we will be able to hear what you have
16 to say.
17 MR CLARKE: Do you have with you your
18 statement to this Tribunal of 29th April 1999?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
21 the best of your knowledge and belief?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. I would like to ask, if I may, a few
24 supplementary questions about it. Could we have a look
25 at paragraph 3 on the screen? You describe there how
1 the Knights of Malta set up a first aid post in the New
2 Road in about 1968 or 1969 to treat people who were
3 being hurt in the rioting. Was that first aid post
4 a permanent post, or was it simply a building that was
5 used when there was rioting?
6 A. Um, it was a building that we had used the
7 room of, the ground room of -- no, I think it was there
8 permanently during the summer. I do not know if it
9 went on after the summer, I cannot remember that.
10 Q. Was it in use in 1970 and 1971 and 1972?
11 A. Um, I cannot remember, I do not remember.
12 Q. Do you remember whether it was in use on
13 Bloody Sunday?
14 A. No, it was not.
15 Q. It was not?
16 A. No, it was not.
17 Q. Were you aware of first aid posts anywhere
18 else that were in use on Bloody Sunday?
19 A. No, not that I remember, no.
20 Q. Sorry, did you want to add something?
21 A. I am just saying not that I remember, there
22 was not, no.
23 Q. May we go to the bottom of the page,
24 paragraph 6? You there record that Captain Day, the
25 head of the Derry unit of the Knights of Malta,
1 notified the RUC that the Knights of Malta were going
2 to attend the march. You say:
3 "I do not know why we all wore our white
4 uniform that day, unless it was on advice from the RUC
5 communicated through Captain Day, as we would not
6 normally wear white on such occasions."
7 What would you normally wear on occasions
8 such as a march like this?
9 A. We had a uniform, a grey uniform, a skirt and
10 a tunic and hat and we carried a white first aid bag.
11 Q. But on this occasion you wore --
12 A. I was wearing a white tunic, a white
13 overall-type thing.
14 Q. You do not recall why you were told to wear
15 white on that occasion?
16 A. No, I do not remember why, I just know I was
17 wearing it that day.
18 Q. You describe in the next paragraph meeting
19 the other Knights of Malta at the shops on the Creggan
20 Estate and being divided by Captain Day into pairs. Do
21 you recall whereabouts that meeting took place?
22 A. It would have been up at the Creggan shops,
23 in that area.
24 Q. About when did it take place on the day?
25 A. Oh, just before the march itself.
1 Q. If we go to paragraph 10, you describe how:
2 "The march was fairly quiet when we set
3 off."
4 When the march set off, where did you
5 understand that the march would be going to?
6 A. The Rossville Street, there was to be
7 a meeting there.
8 Q. Where did you think the meeting was to be?
9 A. In Rossville Street.
10 Q. Whereabouts --
11 A. Sorry, over at the Free Derry Corner, sorry,
12 at Free Derry Corner.
13 Q. How had you understood this meeting was going
14 to be over at Free Derry Corner?
15 A. There was a march there -- I know we were to
16 march from the Creggan to that area.
17 Q. How did you know where the meeting was to
18 take place, had somebody told you?
19 A. No, no, I am sorry, it was to be at the
20 Guildhall and then when they got down, they could not
21 get down to the Guildhall, so they moved over to
22 Free Derry Corner, I am sorry.
23 Q. You describe the route that the march took
24 and in the third line in this paragraph, you describe
25 how it went east along William Street and how you moved
1 east along William Street rather than turning right,
2 south down Rossville Street. When you moved east along
3 William Street, whereabouts were you in the march, were
4 you in the front, the middle or the back?
5 A. I think I was fairly near the front, I think.
6 Q. Had you become aware that some of the march
7 had turned down Rossville Street?
8 A. The march had split, that is because
9 I remember trying to decide what way to go and we went
10 down William Street.
11 Q. Why did you decide that you would go down
12 William Street?
13 A. We were going down just -- we just decided to
14 go that way, I cannot remember actually why, you know.
15 Q. You were with Sophie Marley at this stage?
16 A. I was, it was -- whoever my other partner
17 was, I think it was Sophie Marley, I cannot say for
18 definite it was Sophie Marley.
19 Q. I want to come on, if I may, in your
20 statement to paragraphs 17 to 19 on AC85.5. You
21 describe in earlier paragraphs having been in a house
22 in Chamberlain Street and then having been let out in
23 to the backyard.
24 In paragraph 17 you describe walking along
25 Eden Place and seeing a young man hurt in the leg at
1 a position that you have indicated on your map and
2 telling him that you should go to the Rossville Flats
3 and somebody would get you some water to wash out the
4 wound; is that right?
5 A. Um, I remember that we wanted to go to the
6 Rossville Flats because we wanted water.
7 Q. That was because there was a young man who
8 had got a laceration on his leg?
9 A. There was some -- there was a man who was
10 injured, yes.
11 Q. In paragraph 18 you describe how you began
12 walking south across the waste ground and seeing then
13 a large crowd of people running south and two Saracens
14 which seemed to be travelling at great speed; is that
15 right?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. And although you told the man that he should
18 stay calm and stay with you, he ran away and you and
19 the person you were with started to run with the crowd?
20 A. (Witness nodding). Yes.
21 Q. And then suddenly the Saracens veered left
22 and moved on to the waste ground. You describe in
23 paragraph 19 how they came to an abrupt stop in the
24 area you have marked E on your plan, and you refer to
25 both Saracens coming in together and stopping close
1 together as well. If we look at your plan, we will
2 find it at AC85.32, and the spot that you have marked
3 at E is just above the north end of block 1 of the
4 Rossville Flats below Pilot Row. That is where you
5 recall the two Saracens as stopping, is it?
6 A. About there, yes.
7 Q. I would like to show you, if I may, a couple
8 of photographs to see whether this brings back any
9 recollection of the scene. Firstly could we have
10 a look at photograph P593. That is a photograph which
11 shows an Armoured Personnel Carrier coming down
12 Rossville Street, somewhere, in fact, quite close to
13 the point that you have marked as D on your map,
14 because where Eden Place used to be is approximately
15 there. (Indicating). Do you remember a scene rather
16 like that? You, of course, would have seen it from the
17 other side.
18 A. I think I was -- I do not remember the
19 soldiers behind, I remember the Saracen, I do not
20 remember soldiers.
21 Q. In fact that is probably the second of the
22 two Pigs that came down. If we look at the immediately
23 preceding photograph, P592, that we believe to have
24 been the first one that came down Rossville Street. Do
25 you remember seeing something like that?
1 A. Yes, it would be familiar.
2 Q. If we go to EP28.4A, again could we lighten
3 it up a little. We believe in this photograph, though
4 we are not quite sure, that the first Saracen that came
5 down can just be seen crossing towards the back of the
6 Chamberlain Street houses with a series of people
7 fleeing away down into the car park of the flats. Did
8 you see something like that happening?
9 A. That would be my memory.
10 LORD SAVILLE: I wonder, Mr Clarke, there is
11 a person in the foreground to the left with a white
12 coat, whether that could possibly be you, Ms Coyle, do
13 you see where I am looking, down towards the bottom of
14 the photograph. Mr Clarke has put a red arrow against
15 it. If it is, it is probably very difficult for you to
16 tell now.
17 A. I do not know if it was me or not, I do not
18 think it was. I do not know.
19 LORD SAVILLE: It is worth trying, because
20 you were wearing a white coat, of course?
21 A. Uh-huh, it was a white nylon coat I was
22 wearing.
23 MR CLARKE: If we look at what we think is
24 the next photograph in the series, EP28.5, what we
25 believe to have happened by this stage is that the army
1 vehicle which we saw there in the previous photograph,
2 we think has gone off up in that direction and there
3 appears to be the nose of another army vehicle coming
4 round the corner and there are various army vehicles
5 along or coming up Rossville Street.
6 Do you remember being conscious of a number
7 of army vehicles in line along Rossville Street?
8 A. No, this is not familiar to me.
9 Q. This is not familiar to you?
10 A. (Witness shaking head).
11 Q. The reason I am showing you these photographs
12 is that the spot that you have marked as E on your map
13 is somewhere approximately where I am pointing my red
14 arrow at the moment and the pictures we have seen tend
15 to suggest that, at the beginning stages at any rate,
16 a Saracen did come to rest but not at the point I have
17 marked with a red arrow and the point that appears at E
18 on your map, but further into the car park in the place
19 shown in photograph P188, where we can see a Saracen in
20 between the block of the Rossville Flats on the
21 left-hand side and Chamberlain Street on the right with
22 a series of vehicles by now in line in Rossville Street
23 behind.
24 Is that image familiar to you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. If we go to AC85.5, paragraph 19, you
2 describe in the last line but one, how you remember
3 seeing a soldier jump out of one of the Saracens and
4 immediately collide with a young man and how both the
5 soldier and the man fell to the ground and the man
6 jumped up and ran off. You then say this:
7 "The soldier was slower at getting to his
8 feet, but as he did he grabbed his rifle and went to
9 the first person who was running past and tried to hit
10 them. This was a young girl. The soldier held the
11 barrel of the gun with his hands and swung his rifle
12 like a club. He hit the young girl with the butt of
13 the rifle in the middle of the back. He had aimed for
14 her head, but she ducked at the last moment and he hit
15 her back instead."
16 Do you have that recollection in your mind's
17 eye now of a soldier holding the barrel of the gun?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. When you say that "he swung it like a club",
20 you mean that literally, do you?
21 A. He did, he lifted the gun up and swung it to
22 hit her, yes. (Indicating).
23 Q. As you have just demonstrated?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. You say that he had aimed for her head. Are
1 you sure that that was so?
2 A. He was hitting out at her. I would say only
3 as he came down she ducked, he could have hit the head,
4 yes. But she was running as well at the same time.
5 Q. What sort of age was this girl?
6 A. She was a young girl -- when I say young,
7 about my age, maybe a year younger, year older.
8 Q. You do not know who she was?
9 A. No, I do not.
10 Q. As you say, she staggered but continued
11 running?
12 A. Uh-huh, she did not fall.
13 Q. May we then come to paragraphs 21 to 23. You
14 describe there how you and Sophie grabbed the girl and
15 ran over to the entrance of block 2, made your way up
16 some steps which took you to the entrance at the
17 northeast corner of block 2 and went up to the first
18 floor and were let into a house by the man of the
19 house; is that right?
20 A. We did not go into the house, the door opened
21 and the girl went in.
22 Q. But you were on the balcony?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Looking onto the car park. Could we have
25 a look at the photograph that is attached to your
1 statement at AC85.29? You, as I understand it, went
2 over in that direction; is that right? (Indicating).
3 A. That is right, yes.
4 Q. And you went up the steps which we know are
5 at a stairwell at this side of the block, is that
6 right?
7 A. That is right, aye.
8 Q. The balcony that you got to, was it in fact
9 the first balcony that we see? We know there are three
10 balconies, that is one, that is another and that is the
11 third. (Indicating). You describe in your statement
12 going up to the first floor, I wonder whether you can
13 recall which of the balconies it was, the middle, the
14 top or the bottom?
15 A. I cannot remember now. I mean, I think it
16 was the middle, but I cannot remember and I do not know
17 why I would have gone up to the middle one.
18 Q. But you think it was the middle one?
19 A. I cannot remember now.
20 Q. You describe in paragraph 26, could we have
21 that on the screen at AC85.7, running along the balcony
22 in an attempt to get to the stairs at the north end of
23 block 2 and as you ran along the balcony being
24 conscious of chips of concrete flying out of the
25 concrete ledge by your feet. Is that the concrete
1 ledge into which the railings of the balcony are
2 embedded?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. Were you able to see where the fire appeared
5 to be coming from?
6 A. I did not look, to be truthful. I was
7 running along the balcony and I was looking straight
8 ahead and the man called out to me and that is when
9 I looked down and seen the chips.
10 Q. Would you be able to tell what type of bullet
11 had caused that chipping?
12 A. No, I would not.
13 Q. You say, however, that you saw three or four
14 pieces of concrete being chipped away in quick
15 succession?
16 A. They splintered in all directions, I remember
17 being aware of the concrete splitting and chipping in
18 all directions, yes.
19 Q. You say the chips seemed to follow you as you
20 went along the balcony. Were you conscious of the
21 chips coming out from more than one place, or is it
22 a series of chips from firing at the same place, or
23 could you not tell?
24 A. I think it was -- I cannot remember, I think
25 it was -- I am very conscious of one chip -- the chips
1 coming out of one place and splitting, going in all
2 directions.
3 Q. And then you describe how a man grabbed you
4 by your shoulders from behind one of the concrete
5 pillars and pulled you in behind it?
6 A. That is right.
7 Q. Then if we may come to paragraphs 27 and 28.
8 You describe staying in that spot at a time when people
9 were taking cover behind each of the pillars along the
10 balcony. You say that you are sure that you did not
11 see anyone on the balcony with a weapon or missile of
12 any description?
13 A. There was definitely nobody like that, no.
14 Q. Were you conscious of anything that sounded
15 like fire being directed from one of the balconies?
16 A. No, there was a lot of noises going on at the
17 time, um, there was just a lot of -- it was all noise
18 to me.
19 Q. You then describe how, although the man that
20 you were sheltering with told you to stay where you
21 were, you had to get down to the injured man in the car
22 park and came out from behind the pillar and ran along
23 the balcony to the north end of block 2 -- if we could
24 have a look at paragraph 29 -- then went down the
25 stairs to the ground level and tried to get into the
1 car park at the position marked I on your plan, but
2 could not open the door. Instead you got to the
3 position that you have marked at J.
4 Could we go back to your photograph at
5 AC85.29? As I understand it, you ran along the balcony
6 in that direction; is that right?
7 A. That is right, yes.
8 Q. I think you must have crossed over, must you
9 not, the walkway that leads to block 1?
10 A. Aye, must have, because I think the stairway
11 is on the other side.
12 Q. Just so. And the doorway that is locked
13 would I think have been there? (Indicating).
14 A. Yes, exactly, down at the bottom.
15 Q. The doorway that leads out into the car park
16 from block 1?
17 A. It was not locked, I could not get it opened.
18 Q. Do you know why you could not open it?
19 A. I could not work the bars on it.
20 Q. Did you therefore go out of the entrance to
21 block 1 of the flats that looks on to Rossville Street?
22 A. Sorry, could you ask that question again?
23 Q. Yes. Did you in the end go out of the
24 entrance of the Rossville Flats that looks on to
25 Rossville Street?
1 A. I was able to get out this way on to the
2 front bit where Free Derry Corner is.
3 Q. But you did not manage to get out of the
4 doorway that leads into the car park?
5 A. Oh, no, this car park here that we are
6 looking at?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. No, I could not get the door opened, so
9 I tried to go out the other door to run around that
10 long bit of the building there. I was thinking if
11 I got into Rossville Street and ran round the front
12 I could get into the car park that way.
13 Q. If we then go back to AC85.7, paragraph 30
14 and 31, you describe there how when you had got out of
15 that doorway into Rossville Street, you suddenly saw
16 somebody, about 19 or 20 years old, lying on his back
17 saying that he had been shot and you walked him over to
18 a house at Joseph Place where the man with some
19 embarrassment said he felt all right and that he had
20 not -- in fact you discovered he had not been shot at
21 all, is that right?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. Do you know what it was that had caused him
24 to fall and to think that he had been shot in the head?
25 A. I have no idea. All I know is there was
1 a lot of noises going on and the next thing he fell
2 down, saying he had been shot.
3 Q. Did he have any injury at all?
4 A. I could not find any injury.
5 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraphs 32 to
6 34 of AC85.8? You describe in paragraph 32 how, as you
7 led the man who turned out not to have been injured to
8 the house, you saw somebody lying at the position that
9 you have marked as N and Paul McLaughlin, another
10 Knight of Malta, was kneeling by his side. Have
11 I understood this right: is this the man whom you
12 subsequently discovered to be Bernard McGuigan?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. You get into the house in Joseph Place and
15 you see the girl you later discovered to be Alana
16 Burke, who you thought might have broken her back and
17 in consequence you went to go and get an ambulance; is
18 that right?
19 A. That is right.
20 Q. Can you tell us approximately how long you
21 think you were in the house in Joseph Place where Alana
22 Burke was, before going out to try and find an
23 ambulance?
24 A. I have no idea how long I was actually in the
25 house.
1 Q. You cannot even tell us whether it was
2 a matter of minutes or longer than that?
3 A. I would be guessing, I have no idea.
4 Q. You then describe how you came back out of
5 the house to fetch the ambulance and ran towards Paul
6 McLaughlin and a group of other people hiding in the
7 gap between block 1 and 2 and he shouted to you to get
8 in and take cover as there was shooting from the
9 Derry City walls; is that right?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. Could we have paragraphs 35 to 37 on the
12 screen. You describe running over to where Paul was.
13 As you did that, were you conscious of any particular
14 shooting or any shooting at all?
15 A. There was no shooting at that stage, it was
16 quiet at that stage.
17 Q. When you got to where Paul was, he showed you
18 somebody lying in the open at about a position that you
19 have marked with an O on your map lying on his front
20 with his head facing the direction of Fahan Street East
21 and his legs facing towards Glenfada Park.
22 Do you know who that person was?
23 A. At the time I did not.
24 Q. Did you discover subsequently?
25 A. I think it was a fella called Doherty, I am
1 still not quite sure.
2 Q. If we look at your map at AC85.32, we can see
3 where you have put the letter O, which is approximately
4 halfway between the front of block 2 and the gable end
5 of Joseph Place. May we have on the screen photograph
6 P717. This is a photograph of Patrick Doherty taken on
7 the day. He is not lying on his face, but he is lying
8 on his back and he is not far from the position that
9 you have marked with an O. We can trace exactly where
10 he is by noticing that this is the gable end of
11 Joseph Place. That is the wall of the garden of
12 Joseph Place and that is the beginning of the alleyway
13 that leads behind Joseph Place. (Indicating). At the
14 time when you saw him, was he in something like that
15 position but lying on his face, or was he in some other
16 position?
17 A. I cannot remember. I do not remember if he
18 was lying on his face, to tell you the truth now.
19 Q. You do not have any particular memory of
20 that?
21 A. I do not, no.
22 Q. What you have described as your recollection
23 is that his head was facing the direction of
24 Fahan Street East and his legs were facing towards
25 Glenfada Park North. Is that a recollection which you
1 now have in your mind's eye?
2 A. No, I have only a memory of a person lying on
3 the ground.
4 Q. Essentially your memory is of somebody lying
5 in that area?
6 A. In that area.
7 Q. And quite how he was lying?
8 A. I cannot remember.
9 Q. May we go back to AC85.8, paragraph 37. You
10 then describe how Paul McLaughlin also showed you
11 another man who seemed to have been shot at about
12 position P, whom you have subsequently found to be
13 Hugh Gilmore; is that right?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. And you describe how you and a group of other
16 people were huddled and taking shelter at the wall; is
17 that right?
18 A. That is right, in the corner.
19 Q. If we go over the page to paragraphs 38 and
20 39, at AC85.9, you describe hiding behind the kiosk for
21 what seemed like a long time, it was probably only
22 about ten minutes. And you say that you remember
23 hearing the sound of shots and realising that people
24 who had gathered at Free Derry Corner were being shot
25 at, they were running and falling to the ground.
1 Did you actually see that?
2 A. I did. My impression was of looking over
3 towards Free Derry Corner, people standing and then
4 there were shots and them falling to the ground.
5 Q. When you say "at Free Derry Corner," you mean
6 right at the corner itself, do you?
7 A. In front of it, around that area.
8 Q. Can you give us any idea of the number of
9 people who you remember having been gathered at
10 Free Derry Corner at that stage?
11 A. No, I do not. My memory would be of not
12 a big group of people, but I do not know, I really do
13 not know.
14 Q. You say that it seemed to you that the shots
15 were coming from the Derry walls; why did that seem to
16 you to be the position?
17 A. Because of the way the people fell and ran.
18 Q. What way did they fall that gave you that
19 impression?
20 A. Well, they sort of, they got down on their
21 hunkers and that and they kinda, fell this way, away
22 from the walls. They were sorta going away from the
23 walls.
24 Q. You then describe in paragraph 39 seeing the
25 bonnet of a Saracen parallel to the south end of
1 block 1 and also a young girl hiding in the corner
2 being hysterical. I will come, if I may, to the young
3 girl in a moment. You describe how the Saracen seemed
4 to stop and then reverse and you describe how it came
5 past the rubble barricade and then reversed back. Do
6 I understand by that that it would have driven through
7 the rubble barricade, stopped and then reversed back?
8 A. All I can say is that it came to the end of
9 the High Flats and the bonnet of it came out beyond it
10 and then it reversed back. I do not know anything
11 about the rubble barricade or anything like that.
12 Q. I want to show you some photographs of the
13 scene to see whether they accord with your
14 recollection. Could we have a look at photograph
15 P815. Do you recognise yourself in that photograph?
16 A. I think that is me in it, yes.
17 Q. I think that is you, is it not? (Marked with
18 yellow arrow).
19 A. There.
20 Q. Facing the camera?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We can see the body of Barney McGuigan and of
23 Hugh Gilmore. We can also see in the photograph
24 a Saracen approaching. You would have seen it, would
25 you, as you came beyond the line of the south end of
1 block 1?
2 A. As it came beyond that line and then reversed
3 back again.
4 Q. Do you know who any of the other people are?
5 I think we can see Paul McLaughlin, it looks rather
6 like him. (Indicating).
7 A. That is Paul McLaughlin, yes.
8 Q. From his hat?
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. Do you recollect who any of the others were?
11 A. No, I did not know any of the others.
12 Q. If we look at 818 that is another photograph
13 in the same series, I think that is Paul McLaughlin in
14 the man's Knight of Malta uniform; is that right?
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. I think you on the far right?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. Do you know who the two people are whose
19 faces appears?
20 A. No, I do not know them at all.
21 Q. If we look at 822, I think that is you and
22 Paul McLaughlin in the right-hand corner?
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. We can see here the two men whose faces we
25 saw in the preceding photograph, carrying somebody
1 away. Do you know who that is they are carrying away?
2 A. I do not know.
3 Q. Do you know whether or not that is the girl
4 who had been hysterical?
5 A. I, I do not know.
6 Q. If we look at photograph P466, I think again
7 we can see you in the far right-hand corner, Paul
8 McLaughlin in the middle and I think the girl who had
9 been hysterical also shown in the photograph. Do you
10 remember Paul McLaughlin trying to help her?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 MR CLARKE: Would you like to have a break
13 for a moment?
14 LORD SAVILLE: Are you all right or would you
15 like to have a little five-minute break?
16 A. Please.
17 LORD SAVILLE: You would like a little
18 break. Why not. We will rise for a few moments and
19 then come back in.
20 (10.55 am)
21 (A short adjournment)
22 (11.10 am)
23 MR CLARKE: Could we have AC85.9, paragraphs
24 39 to 40, back on the screen, please. You describe
25 there how someone in the group of people who you were
1 with got out a white hanky and decided to go and attend
2 to the man at position P, that is Hugh Gilmore. You
3 say:
4 "The shooting appeared to have ceased at that
5 point."
6 You say that another group of people went
7 over to the person at position O. I wonder if we could
8 have on the screen photograph P833. This is
9 a photograph of a series of people around Patrick
10 Doherty. Do you recognise who the Knight of Malta is?
11 A. I think it is Mr Day.
12 Q. That is Captain Day, is it?
13 A. Yes, that is right.
14 Q. I want then, if I may, to come to paragraphs
15 42 and 43 on AC85.9. This is the passage in your
16 statement in which you describe your attempts to find
17 an ambulance, having walked across the car park towards
18 the south end of Chamberlain Street. You say that you
19 saw a group of soldiers at the south end of
20 Chamberlain Street and one Saracen. Can you tell us
21 where the Saracen was; was it in Chamberlain Street or
22 was it in the car park?
23 A. Um, I think it was in Chamberlain Street.
24 Q. You describe telling them that you needed an
25 ambulance and being made to stand against a wall and
1 searched. You describe how Alice Long told the
2 soldiers that there were three people injured on the
3 other side of the flats who needed an ambulance and
4 they just laughed and jeered; is that right?
5 A. That is right, they actually did not search
6 us, now, they were going to search us, put us up
7 against the wall to say they were searching us, but
8 they did not actually do it.
9 Q. You say that Alice said, "For Christ's sake,
10 there is three people dead," and they said "hip hip
11 hooray," and said, "There will be more before tonight"?
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. Could you distinguish what rank these
14 soldiers had?
15 A. No, I am sorry, I would not know that.
16 Q. Or as to whether any of them were officers?
17 A. I would not know that either.
18 Q. If we go over to paragraph 44 on AC85.10, you
19 describe there an incident where you saw an ambulance,
20 asked the soldiers where the drivers were, were told
21 that they were at the north end of Chamberlain Street,
22 went your way up there and when you got to about
23 High Street were told that there were no ambulance men
24 there. So when you got back to the position where the
25 ambulance was, you found that the ambulance men were
1 standing in the hallway of a house adjacent to where
2 the ambulance was parked?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. Did you ever discover why you had been
5 directed to the other end of Chamberlain Street?
6 A. No, I never did, we just assumed it was fun
7 and games with the soldiers.
8 Q. You tried to get a lift in the back of the
9 ambulance but were told by the ambulance man that you
10 could not; is that right?
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. And you say about four lines up from the
13 bottom that:
14 "Alice Long spoke to the soldiers very
15 politely and was doing everything very slowly as she
16 did not want to antagonise them and asked the soldier
17 who seemed to be in charge if we could go back to the
18 other side of the flats."
19 You say:
20 "The soldier said that we could, but that
21 the white coats made great targets."
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. What did you understand by that?
24 A. We could be shot on the way across.
25 Q. By whom?
1 A. The soldiers.
2 Q. Then I think you made your way over the car
3 park and back through the exit between blocks 1 and 2,
4 by which time ambulances had arrived; is that right?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. Could we have lastly on the screen EP4.48?
7 This is a picture which shows two members of the
8 Knights of Malta running from the alleyway which leads
9 into Chamberlain Street by the 720 Bar. Can you tell
10 who those two Knights of Malta people are?
11 A. Um, the girl I think is Majella Cassidy and
12 the fella may be Jim Norris. I am not sure, I cannot
13 remember his name.
14 Q. You think it might be Jim Norris?
15 A. No, I cannot remember his name, I would need
16 to think about it.
17 Q. It is somebody else, is it?
18 A. Um, I might have the name wrong, I will leave
19 it, I will leave that. It is Majella Cassidy, anyway.
20 MR CLARKE: Thank you, those are my
21 questions.
22 Questioned by MS DOHERTY
23 MS DOHERTY: I have one question, Ms Coyle.
24 My name is Fiona Doherty and I appear on behalf of the
25 some of the families of the deceased and the wounded.
1 If we could have that photograph that was
2 just on the screen back again, EP4.48, please.
3 Ms Coyle, you see the two figures to the
4 right of that photograph, one in the white tunic?
5 A. The two I was looking at there now?
6 Q. Yes, that is right: do you recognise the
7 person on the right, the man?
8 A. I do recognise him, but I cannot remember his
9 name at the minute, no. He was a Knights of Malta
10 member.
11 Q. Could it be Charles McGonigal?
12 A. I think it was Charles McMonagill all right.
13 Questioned by MR TOPOLSKI
14 MR TOPOLSKI: My name is Topolski,
15 I represent the family of Patrick Doherty. I want to
16 see if I can clarify with you how he was lying when you
17 first saw him. Can I remind you what you said in your
18 statement to this Tribunal first of all. Could we have
19 AC85.8 up on the screen and can we highlight paragraph
20 35. Ms Coyle, this is where you are dealing with
21 coming back out of the house in Joseph Place and Paul
22 McLaughlin points out another man to you?
23 A. (Witness nodding).
24 Q. "He was in position O. He was lying on his
25 front with his head facing the direction of
1 Fahan Street East and his legs facing towards
2 Glenfada Park North. I did not feel it was safe enough
3 to go out to him."
4 That is a pretty precise description,
5 Ms Coyle; do you agree?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. I am going to suggest to you you are right
8 about it, and I ask you the questions because in
9 answering my learned friend Mr Clarke you were saying
10 to us a few moments ago that you now were not sure
11 whether he was lying face up or face down and the
12 position he was in.
13 Can I show you a photograph at P822, you were
14 shown that before. Can we lighten it a bit. You see
15 yourself and Paul McLaughlin against that wall?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Would it be about there that you were when
18 Paul McLaughlin was pointing out to you the body of the
19 man we now believe to be Patrick Doherty?
20 A. Um, probably because I was, um, in that
21 corner, yes.
22 Q. That being so, let me just show you as best
23 I can from another photograph the sort of distance you
24 would be looking at him from. Could we have P198 on
25 the screen, please. Can you lighten that up slightly.
1 You can orientate yourself, I am sure, Ms Coyle, can
2 you? You can see where the telephone box will be, can
3 you, between --
4 A. No.
5 Q. Sorry, was that yes or no?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You see the three blocks of the
8 Rossville Flats?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. The first block one sees facing on to
11 Rossville Street itself, block 1?
12 A. I see now where I am, right, sorry.
13 MR TOPOLSKI: It is difficult to get your
14 mind round these things, I know. In the gap between 1
15 and 2, you will see, if you look carefully, the
16 telephone box.
17 LORD SAVILLE: We can probably expand this
18 photograph a bit for that corner.
19 MR TOPOLSKI: Thank you, sir, I am grateful.
20 LORD SAVILLE: I think you can just see the
21 telephone box now, Ms Coyle, if you look carefully.
22 MR TOPOLSKI: In the light of the photograph
23 I showed you about with yourself and Paul McLaughlin,
24 he was pointing, it would have been to your left, along
25 under the canopy there that runs alongside block 2.
1 Can you show us on this screen, and you can
2 touch it, Ms Coyle, approximately where you think the
3 body of the man we now know to be Patrick Doherty was
4 when Mr McLaughlin first pointed him out to you?
5 A. (Pause). I am sorry, I, my memories of him
6 would be further up, but I do not know if I am getting
7 confused. It would have been up, but I could be
8 getting confused now.
9 Q. Is that you touching the screen?
10 A. That is me, sir. I am getting -- can we
11 remove this wee blot?
12 Q. Yes, we can start it again, if you like.
13 A. Right, my memory would be up here, but again
14 I am not, I could be getting confused now because,
15 sorry, I just cannot say for definite. (Marked with
16 blue arrow).
17 Q. I wonder if we could mark that with
18 a coloured arrow. Just about there?
19 A. It was, I know anyway, aye, about there, up
20 that way.
21 LORD SAVILLE: I think Ms Coyle is doing her
22 best. Of course you must tell us if you cannot clearly
23 remember, because it is not going to help us for you to
24 say something that you do not really recall. If
25 I understand your evidence correctly, Ms Coyle, it is
1 up in that direction is about the best you can do now
2 trying to remember; is that right?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 MR TOPOLSKI: I am content with that,
5 Ms Coyle. Let me show you one more photograph because
6 I think I can reassure you that you are pretty
7 accurate. P812, please, if we may. If you lighten
8 this up a bit. Here is a group of men gathered round
9 the body of Patrick Doherty, behind them the steps to
10 Fahan Street East, the end of that alleyway?
11 A. The steps would be familiar to me.
12 Q. I am grateful for that. Ms Coyle, what
13 I want to suggest to you, respectfully, is this: you
14 had in your statement to this Tribunal carefully
15 described the position of the body of Mr Doherty face
16 down, head facing towards those steps we see in this
17 photograph, feet, therefore, towards Glenfada
18 Park North. That precise description you have given,
19 is that one you are prepared to stand by now that
20 I have shown you a few photographs and hopefully
21 reminded you of the scene?
22 A. I am trying to remember it in me mind. Yes,
23 I am prepared to stand by that, yes.
24 MR TOPOLSKI: I am very grateful, thank you
25 for your help.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Ms Coyle, if you look to your
2 right, I heard what you said, you are prepared to stand
3 by it, but are you able to say now that you have
4 a recollection in your mind of that body in the
5 position described in your statement, or are you now
6 not able to say you have a clear recollection; which do
7 you think it might be?
8 A. No, I do not have a clear recollection, but
9 my memory is of the man in that position, you know, but
10 I cannot say that is one hundred per cent clear.
11 LORD SAVILLE: That is very helpful, thank
12 you very much.
13 Questioned by MR LAWSON
14 MR LAWSON: Ms Coyle, my name is Lawson,
15 I represent some of the soldiers. Just a few questions
16 for you, please. First this: could we have on the
17 screen AC85.3 and paragraph 3 of your statement about
18 which my learned friend Mr Clarke asked you some
19 questions in connection with the first aid post.
20 In your statement to the Inquiry, you
21 indicated that -- and I quote:
22 "The post was set up because there was
23 difficulty in getting people to Altnagelvin Hospital
24 because of an army checkpoint over the Bridge."
25 Do you see that now?
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Obviously "a difficulty" would be that one
3 would be stopped at an army checkpoint. Was another
4 difficulty that people who had been injured in rioting
5 might be vulnerable to being arrested?
6 A. Um, it was a lot of reasons. There was a lot
7 of reasons there, the time to get people to hospital
8 was one of them, the checkpoint, people were afraid
9 that the bridge would be closed and people on our side
10 would not be able to get over across the bridge to the
11 Waterside, so there was a lot of issues on why we set
12 up the post.
13 Q. Also, I am not suggesting anything wrong in
14 it for a moment, was there also a concern, as you
15 understood it, if it appeared that you or a person had
16 been involved in rioting, been injured in rioting, he
17 might be liable to be arrested and prosecuted?
18 A. It was a possibility.
19 Q. Can I go to the next page of the statement,
20 please, AC85.4, just deal with paragraph 7. It is only
21 this, but lest the Inquiry succeeds in its attempts to
22 trace Sophie Marley and we hear from her in due course,
23 can I ask you a couple of questions about her. You
24 have indicated, I think very fairly, you only think you
25 were paired with Sophie Marley that day; that is right,
1 is it not?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. In one of the contemporaneous statements that
4 you made, if you want to be reminded of it, I hope you
5 have been shown it, you will see -- I will find the
6 reference, I think it is your statement -- if you look
7 on the screen at AC85.20?
8 A. That is not me, you know.
9 Q. Sorry?
10 A. That is not me.
11 Q. I did wonder, I am bound to say. It was with
12 your material?
13 A. No, I wondered why it was there.
14 Q. You did too?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. That is not your --
17 A. That is another girl, Angela Coyle, that was
18 a Knight of Malta also.
19 Q. I am sorry?
20 A. That is Angela Coyle.
21 Q. That is another Ms Coyle?
22 A. Uh-huh, that is right.
23 Q. We ignore that one. To be on the safe side,
24 the one that appears at AC85.24, glance at that on the
25 screen?
1 A. That is me.
2 Q. That one is yours?
3 A. It is me, yes.
4 Q. The reason or a reason I was asking you about
5 Sophie Marley was simply this: there is another
6 ex-Ms Coyle at least, a woman called Nora McElhinney
7 now, I do not know if you know her, used to be Nora
8 Coyle?
9 A. Oh, yes.
10 Q. She has made a statement to the Inquiry, we
11 may be hearing to her in due course. I will give the
12 reference, AM205.1, paragraph 4, in which she says she
13 was paired with Sophie Marley that day?
14 A. Well.
15 Q. If it matters, do you think she may be right
16 and you may be wrong in your recollection?
17 A. She could be, I really do not -- I thought it
18 was, but I did say I was not 100 per cent sure.
19 Q. Is Sophie Marley, as far as you know, still
20 about?
21 A. I was asking where Sophie was because at the
22 time I made the statement I said Sophie could maybe
23 confirm that I was her partner at the time and the
24 feedback I got on it was that Sophie is abroad, she is
25 not in Ireland anymore.
1 Q. I want to go ahead, if I may, to the incident
2 that you remember in the or near to the car park when
3 the Saracens came in.
4 I will take you, of course, to the relevant
5 parts of your statement, if you wish. We need not,
6 perhaps, look at it. You have an impression, do you,
7 in your mind's eye, of the Saracens travelling in at
8 substantial speed?
9 A. I do, yes. They were driving in fast.
10 Q. Obviously they are noisy vehicles, are they
11 not?
12 A. I cannot remember that.
13 Q. You do not remember the noise, no?
14 A. No.
15 Q. We have seen -- all things are perhaps
16 comparative -- we have seen a not very good video taken
17 from the helicopter above, which I will not trouble you
18 with now, which does not seem to suggest they were
19 travelling at vast speed; but that is how you recollect
20 it, is it?
21 A. It is, yes.
22 Q. Can I ask you this about what happened after
23 one of the Saracens at least stopped, and you have told
24 us about a soldier -- if you wish to look at it, the
25 top of AC85.6 -- very top of that paragraph, I hope
1 I am not unfairly taking it out of context. You can
2 look back at what is before, you have a hard copy in
3 front of you. That gives your account, does it not, of
4 what you recollect of when you saw the soldiers?
5 A. The soldiers, yes, that is right.
6 Q. Of the soldiers hitting someone. How was he
7 holding the rifle?
8 A. He lifted the rifle and hit out with the butt
9 -- the handle part of it, he swung it. (Indicating).
10 Q. He held it by the barrel end?
11 A. He held it by the barrel end and swung with
12 the --
13 Q. And swung towards this girl?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Where did it strike her?
16 A. On the back.
17 Q. On the shoulders or on the back?
18 A. Either, it could have been the shoulders, it
19 could have been the back. My impression would be the
20 back.
21 Q. You helped, perhaps with Sophie, as your
22 statement says a little later on, you helped this girl
23 away and into the flats, you have told us, yes?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Do you know who she was?
1 A. No, I do not.
2 Q. No idea?
3 A. No idea at all.
4 Q. Did you see her again after that?
5 A. Not -- if I did, I would not have remembered
6 her.
7 Q. No?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So you cannot help us about that?
10 A. No, I am sorry, I cannot help you in any way
11 there.
12 Q. Let me ask you then about this: I should make
13 clear to you, Ms Coyle, and to others, that I am in no
14 position -- I said I represent some soldiers, quite
15 a lot of the soldiers in fact. I am in no position to
16 and I do not suggest to you that you are doing anything
17 other than your best to recollect the truth, do you
18 follow. I do not expressly challenge what you say
19 about the soldier clubbing.
20 A. He did do it, he did do it.
21 Q. I hope I have made my position clear to you
22 and to others?
23 A. And I have taken an oath as well.
24 Q. Can you help me about this, please, we may
25 need to look into it a little bit further in due
1 course. When you went into the flats, you told us in
2 part perhaps with reference to the photograph AC85.29,
3 which clearly shows, or has the arrows or lines pointed
4 at the middle of the three balconies, but you have told
5 us now that you think you were on the middle?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Of the three; is that right?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. There is no trick to this: in your original
10 statement in 1972, or what might perhaps be called your
11 report -- just glance at it with me, AC85.24 -- if you
12 look at the very bottom of the page, this is after you
13 had dealt with the girl, you said -- do you see why
14 I asked the question I did a few lines down on the
15 screen, that the gun struck her, you said, with full
16 force on her shoulders, and then you refer to going
17 into the flats, do you not?
18 A. No, where is that?
19 Q. The next bit:
20 "I grabbed her and ran with her to the flats
21 ..."
22 A. And we climbed the stairs, yes.
23 Q. "... and we climbed the stairs to the first
24 floor."
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then you dealt with telling the girl to
2 go into a flat and then you refer at the very foot of
3 the page to running along the first floor; do you see
4 that?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Go over the page just to complete the
7 sentence:
8 "... running along it to get to the stairs to
9 get to the ground and the soldiers opened fire on us",
10 right?
11 A. Yeah, right.
12 Q. You also, I think, made a statement in 1972
13 -- I do not know whether you have been shown this,
14 I hope you have -- in the form of what we call a NICRA
15 statement. Can you see it on the screen in typed form,
16 AC85.1. Have you seen this recently?
17 A. Yes, it is attached as well, aye.
18 Q. Just follow down the screen as it is at the
19 moment, and you will see about seven lines from the
20 bottom?
21 A. The first floor of the flats.
22 Q. A bit further up as well, there is a couple
23 more references to the first floor. It seems, does it
24 not, Ms Coyle, that in 1972 you were on both of those
25 occasions unequivocally referring to the first floor of
1 the flats as being the floor you were on. Do you think
2 that is more likely to be accurate than your current
3 recollection?
4 A. It probably is.
5 Q. In your current statement -- I am sorry to
6 switch between them, do tell me if I in any way confuse
7 you -- at AC85.7, if we could look at that and
8 paragraph 26, you are there describing, are you not,
9 without my inviting you to repeat at all, what you
10 thought was or might have been gunfire coming in your
11 direction as you ran across that balcony?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Is that right?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. In giving the account you gave here, you were
16 not, at the time, sure of that; that is right, is it
17 not?
18 A. It was not until a man called to me it was
19 real bullets, I did not know, I just was aware of bangs
20 and things like that.
21 Q. Are you sure in your mind's eye now, you have
22 given us a graphic description, as you did in the
23 statement, about the chips of concrete?
24 A. Oh, yes, yes, that is very definite, yes.
25 Q. There was presumably a lot of people on the
1 balcony?
2 A. There were people on the balcony all right.
3 I am aware of the chips, though. I am very aware of
4 the chips, it was what scared me. It was the first
5 time that I realised there was real gunfire going on.
6 Q. Is it right there was a lot of people on the
7 balcony?
8 A. There was people on the balcony, um, they
9 were, there were people on the balcony, aye, there were
10 people going into houses, they were going into the
11 flats.
12 Q. A reason I ask that, we can go back, again
13 apologies for jumping around the place, to AC85.1.
14 That will do. The penultimate paragraph on the page,
15 do you see the one beginning, "As I ran along"?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. "As I ran along the first floor, the soldiers
18 in the courtyard directed fire at the first floor of
19 the flats. There were a lot of people on the balcony."
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. So there was quite a crowd there and it would
22 have been difficult to avoid noticing, would it not,
23 the chips flying up?
24 A. Well, I noticed it. I was running and looked
25 down at it and seen it happen.
1 Q. And you are quite sure in your own mind --
2 A. I cannot answer for anybody else, you know.
3 Q. You are sure in your own mind that happened?
4 A. It happened all right. As I say, it was the
5 first time that I actually realised this was live
6 bullets that was being used and I got very scared.
7 Q. Understandably, in those circumstances, you
8 could not tell precisely where or from whom the shots
9 were coming?
10 A. I was not even looking to see what direction
11 they were coming. They were hitting at the balcony and
12 that was it.
13 Q. If we go back then to AC85.7, please,
14 paragraph 27, you are talking there of people taking
15 cover behind the pillars along the balcony, right?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. It appears to be, as we discussed, the first
18 floor?
19 A. I do not know if it was each of the pillars,
20 but there were people taking cover.
21 Q. You said you did not see anyone there with
22 a weapon or missile?
23 A. There was nobody with a weapon or missile,
24 no.
25 Q. But you have also indicated to us, is this
1 right, that there was so much noise going on there that
2 you could not tell, would this be fair, where --
3 A. Well, I would have seen somebody with
4 a missile or a weapon. I would have seen something in
5 somebody's hand.
6 Q. If he had been alongside you and if you had
7 been looking in his direction, presumably?
8 A. Well, I was running along, the only thing
9 I was seeing was what was on the balcony, that was why
10 I did not notice where the gunfire was coming from.
11 I was only interested in what was on the balcony that
12 I was running along.
13 Q. But more generally, there was so much noise
14 going on, such a cacophony, you could not tell from
15 where or from whom what shots were coming?
16 A. Well, when the concrete splintered at my
17 feet, I would assume it was coming from a direction
18 opposite me somewhere. It had to be coming from
19 somewhere away from where I was.
20 Q. Whether there was firing coming from anywhere
21 in the flats --
22 A. Where I was on the balcony there was
23 definitely no firing. There was definitely nothing
24 there.
25 Q. AC85.8, please, paragraph 33. I wish to ask
1 you about this, this is the passage where you are
2 referring to meeting up with Alana Burke who had been
3 hurt, all right?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. You say in the middle of that:
6 "She told me [this is in Joseph Place, of
7 course] she had been crushed by a Saracen against
8 a wall."
9 A. Right, the girl I attended to who was injured
10 and I believed later was Alana Burke told me she had
11 been crushed by a Saracen against a wall.
12 Q. Certainly Alana Burke has told us she was
13 taken to a house in Joseph Place and there received
14 some attention; you are sure she told you that, are
15 you?
16 A. Aye, I think that is what it was, aye.
17 Q. I want to go almost finally to deal with the
18 unfortunate incident that occurred in Chamberlain
19 Street. By all means remind yourself of what you have
20 told this Inquiry, paragraph 42 on AC85.9. That is the
21 account you have substantially repeated to us and it is
22 one you have doubtless reminded yourself, essentially
23 you recorded before in 1972, right?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. You said in answer to Mr Clarke that you
1 could not distinguish between rank or tell whether any
2 of the individuals was an officer or otherwise?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. In 1972, do you remember that you referred to
5 the person who was being particularly offensive as
6 being an officer?
7 A. I do not remember referring to him as an
8 officer. Probably if I referred to him as an officer
9 it would have been because he seemed to be in charge.
10 It would not have been because of any markings on him
11 or anything like that, for they would mean nothing to
12 me.
13 Q. I can take you both to your Knights of Malta
14 report and to your NICRA statement, in both of which
15 you used the expression "officer"; perhaps you would
16 take that from me?
17 A. I would use "officer" as meaning somebody in
18 charge.
19 Q. Alice Long is reported to have used
20 a description of "a fat corporal"?
21 A. I cannot remember what he looked like, I do
22 not remember.
23 Q. You do not remember anything about him?
24 A. No.
25 Q. But what you have told us here. Can you
1 assist us in this respect: I wonder if you would look
2 with me on the screen, first to identify it, at
3 AL37.12. I say simply to identify it because you see
4 at the top of the page it begins, "This is the
5 statement of Alice Long."
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. It is the only statement, certainly that we
8 have. There are some notes of a journalist
9 interviewing her, but it is certainly, for my part, the
10 only statement I have of hers and it was one which was
11 made, according to the typescript, on 4th February
12 1972, right. I want your assistance, please, because
13 we do not have the benefit of Ms Long or any other
14 account from her.
15 On AL37.13, perhaps the technicians would be
16 kind enough to highlight the bottom half of the
17 screen. If you could follow it down the screen with
18 your eye until you see, about six, seven lines down,
19 "a woman had called to me", do you see that, just look
20 at that:
21 "A woman had called to me that an ambulance
22 was in Chamberlain Street. Volunteer Antoinette Coyle
23 came with me across the courtyard of Rossville Street
24 High Flats to try to get the ambulance."
25 So far I think this accords with your
1 recollection, does it not?
2 A. It does.
3 Q. "We were in the middle of the courtyard when
4 a soldier in the Chamberlain Street area shouted at us
5 to halt."
6 Is that right?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. "We stopped and I [that is she,
9 Alice Long] shouted to him we were first aid workers
10 looking for an ambulance."
11 I do not think you would disagree with that
12 either, would you?
13 A. I have a feeling we were waving our hands as
14 well and shouting that we were first aid workers.
15 I think we waved our hands to show we had nothing in
16 them. We were afraid of being shot and we wanted to
17 show we were not carrying anything.
18 Q. You say, do you not, as you recollect it,
19 that you were forced to assume a search position?
20 A. No, that was never -- we had got to
21 Chamberlain Street now, not before it.
22 Q. Let us look on to that, shall we. It refers
23 to shouting you were first aid workers looking for an
24 ambulance:
25 "We continued to Chamberlain Street and
1 stopped by a Saracen armoured car. A soldier asked
2 what we wanted. I replied we were looking for an
3 ambulance for a casualty that was seriously injured.
4 For some time nobody answered. There was an ambulance
5 there and a woman called Anna Nellis who was there told
6 us that that ambulance was required for two women who
7 had been injured."
8 Pausing there for a moment, that I do not
9 think accords with your recollection, does it?
10 A. There is something about it, but I cannot
11 remember it very clearly, about the ambulance was
12 required for two women.
13 Q. Was it not fairly apparent the ambulance men
14 were in the house in Chamberlain Street?
15 A. No, it was not, no, it was not.
16 Q. It was not?
17 A. No, we were looking for the ambulance men,
18 because apart from anything else we wanted them to know
19 to get ambulances over to Rossville Street. That was
20 the whole issue, was to get ambulances into the
21 Rossville Street area, over to the High Flats.
22 Q. Then she in her contemporaneous account,
23 continues:
24 "Eventually the soldier," we have lost a bit
25 on the copying, as you can see, "told us to go to
1 William Street for an ambulance."
2 That is right, is it?
3 A. We were looking for the ambulance men and
4 they sent us down towards William Street, yes.
5 Q. And she gives a description of the soldier
6 concerned and you simply cannot remember about that?
7 A. I would not know anything about soldiers, no.
8 Q. Pausing there for a moment, the account which
9 she has proffered to this Inquiry does not include any
10 abuse being delivered to you at that stage. I am going
11 to come on to the rest of what she says, indeed the
12 soldier simply suggesting you go to William Street to
13 look for an ambulance?
14 A. No, there was -- what I have said in my
15 statement is what I remember.
16 Q. I should for completeness and fairness refer
17 to the next paragraph of the statement, where she says:
18 "We went to William Street at the end of
19 Chamberlain Street. It was full of soldiers. I could
20 see no ambulance. We came back along Chamberlain
21 Street to the soldier who had sent us."
22 That all accords more or less with your
23 recollection, does it not?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. "He started to laugh. I told him I did not
1 think it was funny. He began to work the bolt in his
2 rifle. He told me our white coats were a good target."
3 You both agree about something being said to
4 that effect, yes?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. "I told him I needed an ambulance because
7 there were two casualties whose lives could be saved.
8 He told us he was not finished shooting yet. I became
9 angry and asked him if he thought he was a hero. He
10 replied he knew he was and throughout this exchange he
11 was laughing all the time."
12 That I think is --
13 A. I remember the laughing, there was a lot of
14 laughing with the soldiers. In fact I thought they
15 were very high. You know, they seemed to be in very
16 good humour and very, very happy people.
17 Q. You have given a very specific allegation,
18 for example in your statement to this Inquiry, have you
19 not, about what happened and when. Do you think the
20 account given by Ms Long is one which is substantially
21 correct?
22 A. I think that the two of them are basically
23 the same. I have added in the bits that I remember and
24 that was what the soldiers said and that, what I am
25 telling you the soldier said, is what was said.
1 LORD SAVILLE: We do have something else from
2 Alice Long from the Sunday Times.
3 MR CLARKE: We have a good deal more than
4 that. Alice Long is now Alice Doherty and her
5 statement to this Tribunal may be found at AD50.1.
6 MR LAWSON: I am very grateful for the
7 information. I am afraid that particular fact had not
8 sifted through our -- I am afraid we were looking at
9 the AL.
10 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Hoyt has found the Sunday
11 Times report, which might be worth looking at.
12 MR LAWSON: Would that be AL37.3, sir?
13 MR HOYT: 37.8.
14 MR LAWSON: Yes.
15 MR HOYT: It did sift through then, did it?
16 MR LAWSON: I am sorry, sir?
17 MR HOYT: To use your words, it did sift
18 through?
19 MR LAWSON: The AL material did, yes. Do you
20 wish me to refer to that?
21 LORD SAVILLE: I think it is only fair to
22 Ms Coyle that we perhaps show her this. As
23 I understand it, this is a record of what someone from
24 the Sunday Times, who was doing an investigation at the
25 time, says he took down by way of an account from
1 Ms Long. I think it is worth asking Ms Coyle to look
2 at it.
3 MR LAWSON: I have no wish to secrete
4 anything. If there is anything in the statement by
5 Mrs Doherty, as she now is, then doubtless Mr Clarke
6 will draw it to your and the witness's attention. I am
7 afraid we did not link the two things.
8 There is, as Mr Hoyt has pointed out,
9 Ms Coyle, a note of what purports to be a Sunday Times
10 interview with Ms Long. She is described at the top of
11 AL37.7 as being, as you see there, that is the
12 beginning of the note so you can put it into context,
13 yes?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. A senior Knights of Malta girl; that is
16 correct, is it not?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. I do not imagine you would disagree for
19 a moment with the description, "very steady and
20 sensible"?
21 A. Yes, that was Alice.
22 Q. I do not think, unless anybody wishes me to,
23 I need draw anything to your attention on the first
24 page. On AL37.8, three lines down, she refers there to
25 you, do you see your name is underlined in fact, and
1 says:
2 "Antoinette Coyle joined me there and we
3 decided to try and get to the ambulance which had
4 arrived in Chamberlain Street. It was there to collect
5 Mrs Deery and Bridge."
6 Probably you have heard of that since, have
7 you not?
8 A. I would not know that was who was in the
9 house. I knew there was people taken out of the house
10 alright, but...
11 Q. We know from a lot of other evidence that
12 Mrs Deery and Michael Bridge were in the house at the
13 bottom of Chamberlain Street:
14 "We went through the back of the flats and
15 towards Chamberlain Street. There were two paras by
16 the end house. They pointed their guns at us and said
17 'Get your fucking hands in the air quick'. It was
18 a fat corporal who said that."
19 Do you remember I referred to that
20 expression?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. "We said we were looking for the ambulance,
23 two lives might be saved if we could get them out to
24 Altnagelvin quickly. They told us to go down to
25 William Street where we would find another ambulance
1 but when we got down there, there was not, so we came
2 back up Chamberlain Street. When we passed the paras
3 they started working the bolts of their guns and
4 laughing and jeering at us. The fat one said to me
5 'I have not finished yet, by the time I am through you
6 will not need any ambulance.'
7 "They made us stand against the house. They
8 did not search us or anything and the fat one said
9 'Your white coats make a fine target, love'. They let
10 us go on back."
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. It is not for me to make any comment in
13 relation to it, but again perhaps substantially in
14 accordance with the other version I took you to. Lest
15 it is thought, as apparently it is, that I am
16 apparently secreting something, for completeness,
17 AL37.3, which I was going to take you to, also refers,
18 without my -- I hope I am not being unfair not reading
19 it all out -- also refers, as you see, about halfway
20 down on the screen, to "the fat corporal", do you see
21 that?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And also contains the expressions:
24 "I have not finished yet, by the time I am
25 through you will not need any ambulance. They made us
1 stand against a house. They did not search us or
2 anything."
3 And the fat one is recorded to have said
4 something about the white coats making a fine target,
5 do you see all that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can I ask you in the context of that: you
8 tell us that -- and I do not challenge it for a moment
9 -- you are quite unable to remember the rank of any of
10 the officers concerned?
11 A. It is not even that, I would not even know
12 ranks. I would not know what the uniforms would mean.
13 Q. You thought it was the one who appeared to be
14 in charge, at least, who was being most abusive, is
15 that right?
16 A. Well, the one we were talking to, yes.
17 Q. Whether he was a corporal, an officer or
18 anything else you simply cannot help about?
19 A. He was just the one that seemed to be in
20 charge.
21 Q. You recollect that the abuse was delivered to
22 you both when you first saw the soldiers in
23 Chamberlain Street and when you returned to them?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. And not as Ms Long apparently recounts it?
1 A. Well, that would be my recollection of it.
2 Q. It was one soldier in particular who was
3 being offensive --
4 A. The rest were laughing away and jeering away.
5 Q. I have nothing else to ask about that topic.
6 You then in due course returned, did you not, back to
7 the area you had come from?
8 A. We did.
9 Q. Round by the flats?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. With Ms Long, I presume?
12 A. Uh-huh. I think there was actually a couple
13 had joined us as well in Chamberlain Street, Knights of
14 Malta people, and they came back with us as well.
15 Q. I think you were there when eventually the
16 ambulances got through to there, were you?
17 A. We were stayed in the area, yes. I think
18 whenever we got back the ambulances may have arrived or
19 there was something had arrived at that stage, whenever
20 we got back there was people already being worked with.
21 Q. I do not know if you can help at all about
22 this, tell me if you cannot. You referred to Captain
23 Day, as he was, his rank at the time in the Knights of
24 Malta, who I believe is no longer with us.
25 Could you look at AD13.3, which is part of
1 a note by a, as I understand, I will be corrected if
2 I am wrong, Sunday Times journalist of a conversation
3 with Mr Day. If on the screen we could highlight the
4 paragraph beginning "I am afraid ..." That is the one
5 near the bottom of the screen at the moment. It is
6 right I should begin by saying that he is talking at
7 this stage of having seen bodies, including the body of
8 Patty Doherty on the ground. He then says:
9 "I am afraid my memory is very bad from there
10 on."
11 Do you see that bit?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. "I recall moving back to the Glenfada area
14 and then back to the phone box area, waiting until the
15 ambulances arrived. Alice Long came back very
16 distressed and said, 'I cannot get the ambulances
17 through, I asked the paras and they would not let me.'"
18 Does that ring any bells with you?
19 A. No, it does not.
20 Q. It goes on to refer to "we both"; that must
21 mean himself and Ms Long?
22 A. No, oh, right.
23 Q. "... going to the barricade, speaking to a
24 para officer, a major, who gave the order allowing an
25 ambulance through."
1 Do you remember that happening?
2 A. I do not remember it happening. I do not
3 remember after we came back, I do not remember what the
4 sequence of things after we came back, so this coulda
5 happened, I just do not remember. I would not have
6 been with them at this stage now, I would not have gone
7 with them.
8 Q. I was not sure whether you were or not, you
9 can see why I was asking you about it. In any event
10 the ambulances were let through ultimately?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 MR LAWSON: And the injured and some of the
13 dead removed. Thank you very much, Ms Coyle.
14 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, do you have any
15 further questions?
16 Questioned by MR CLARKE
17 MR CLARKE: Yes, just two matters. If we go
18 back to the photograph EP4.48, you kindly identify the
19 Knight of Malta on the left, I think you described her
20 as Majella Cassidy?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. Is that her married name?
23 A. No, that was her single name at the time.
24 Q. Because we have a note of a Knight of Malta
25 called Majella Doherty?
1 A. That is her married name -- no, it is the
2 other way round, Majella Doherty is her single name,
3 Majella Cassidy is her married name.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Secondly, AD140.5.
5 This is a report of Rosemary Doyle at the time and it
6 reads thus:
7 "As the march proceeded down William Street,
8 myself and volunteers Maureen Gallagher, Majella
9 Doherty and Antoinette Coyle took a shortcut up a side
10 street to reach the front of the march."
11 That seems to suggest that you were paired
12 with either her or Maureen Gallagher or Majella
13 Doherty; does that bring back any --
14 A. I do not think, I was not paired with Majella
15 Doherty, I do not think. No, it does not really ...
16 I could ask around, I do not know.
17 Q. It may not matter. Thank you very much. If
18 we look at AD50.6, we will find Alice Long's statement
19 under the name Alice Doherty. She says in paragraph
20 31, if we could have a look at that:
21 "Either before or after I attended
22 Paddy Doherty, I also treated a girl with a badly
23 bruised ankle together with another Knight of Malta
24 named Antoinette Coyle. My recollection is we attended
25 to this girl outside a baker's shop which was the
1 southernmost shop in the parade."
2 Do you remember treating with Alice Long
3 a girl with a badly bruised ankle?
4 A. I have no memory of that.
5 Q. If we look at paragraphs 32 to 33, her
6 description in this statement to the Tribunal is as
7 follows:
8 "I then heard there was an ambulance in
9 Chamberlain Street. Together with Antoinette Coyle
10 I went through the alleyway between blocks 2 and 3.
11 There was some firing going on. From there I could see
12 Father Daly and another Knight of Malta, Charles Glenn,
13 treating a young boy."
14 When you went to look for the ambulance, do
15 you recall Father Daly and Charles Glenn treating
16 a young boy still being in the --
17 A. No, not.
18 Q. -- car park?
19 A. Whenever I went. Whenever I went to look for
20 the ambulance --
21 Q. They had gone?
22 A. I think they were gone, aye.
23 Q. Paragraph 33, she says:
24 "Antoinette Coyle and I walked north along
25 Chamberlain Street looking for the ambulance. There
1 was a woman in Chamberlain Street called Anna Nellis
2 who was looking for an ambulance. We approached
3 a group of about eight soldiers standing at point N,
4 near an old bookmaker's shop and the 720 Bar."
5 She seems to have an account there not of
6 looking for an ambulance man, but of looking for an
7 ambulance?
8 A. To me the two were tied up together, because
9 the ambulance led you to the ambulance men, we could
10 tell them to bring the ambulance round. So I mean,
11 I do not see any difference between the two, if you
12 know what I mean.
13 Q. "I cannot now describe their uniforms.
14 I think there were also two Saracens parked on either
15 side of the street."
16 You have referred to one Saracen being in
17 Chamberlain Street, do you recall it being parked on
18 the side of the street or across the street?
19 A. I cannot recall, no.
20 Q. She goes on as follows:
21 "I asked where I could find an ambulance.
22 They laughed. One of them said something like, 'What
23 do you want an ambulance for, we shoot to kill, not to
24 maim'."
25 Then she give a description of the person.
1 Do you have any recollection of anything like that?
2 A. No, I do not, I cannot recall that.
3 Q. "Eventually another of the soldiers told us
4 there was an ambulance on William Street. We therefore
5 continued north to the junction of William Street, but
6 could see no ambulances anywhere."
7 Then in paragraphs 34 to 35, she describes:
8 "There were several vehicles in the vicinity
9 of the barricade continuing towards where the
10 Littlewoods shop stood ... Seeing no ambulances in
11 Waterloo Place."
12 Do you have any recollection of going that
13 far?
14 A. I cannot even think where Waterloo Place is.
15 Q. If you go up Chamberlain Street, turn right
16 into William Street, it would bring you out to Waterloo
17 Place?
18 A. Right. I do not have a recollection going as
19 far as Waterloo Place.
20 Q. Paragraph 35 --
21 A. We could have looked down towards it then,
22 but we did not actually go down into it, if I remember
23 right.
24 Q. She refers, last sentence but one in
25 paragraph 34, to retracing steps back to point N. In
1 paragraph 35:
2 "At point N I told the soldiers who were
3 standing at the bookmaker's there were no ambulances in
4 William Street. I could see that there was a civilian
5 ambulance parked at the far end of Harvey Street which
6 could not get through."
7 Do you remember that, getting back and seeing
8 an ambulance at the far end of Harvey Street?
9 A. I cannot remember.
10 Q. "I told the soldier in no uncertain terms
11 that it was no joke as people were lying injured all
12 over the place, they just" --
13 A. I remember that.
14 MR CLARKE: "... continued to laugh at me and
15 were at the vulgar and cheeky. One of the soldiers
16 cocked his rifle and told me that his white coat would
17 make a good target."
18 A similar incident as before. Thank you very
19 much.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you, Ms Coyle, very much
21 indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry, thank
22 you.
23 I think we will stop now, Mr Clarke, and come
24 back at ten to one for Mr McCrudden, I think it is.
25 MR CLARKE: Yes.
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 (12.00 pm)
3 (The luncheon adjournment)
4 (1.05 pm)
5 MR JOHN MCCRUDDEN, sworn
6 Questioned by MR CLARKE
7 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCrudden, if you look to
8 your right you will see who is addressing you. I am
9 the Chairman of the Tribunal. The questions will come
10 from the barristers who sit in front of me. Could you
11 remember to keep yourself fairly close to that
12 microphone in front of your face there, not too close,
13 then we will all be able to hear what you have to say.
14 MR CLARKE: Do you have with you your
15 statement to this Tribunal of 12th January of last
16 year?
17 A. I have indeed, yes.
18 Q. If we look at paragraph 8 at AM152.2, you
19 describe how one of the Saracens caught your eye and
20 you describe it as parked at an angle in the car park
21 of the Rossville Flats with its bonnet pointing south
22 toward block 3. I think that is a misprint and should
23 read block 2?
24 A. That is right, yeah.
25 Q. Subject to that clarification are the
1 contents of the statement true to the best of your
2 knowledge and belief?
3 A. Paragraph 1 says I was 14; I was only 12.
4 Q. On the version we have it says that you
5 were 12?
6 A. Sorry, okay.
7 Q. Is that what your age was?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. I note, if you look at AM152.10, that in the
10 NICRA statement that appears to have been given at the
11 time, somebody described you as 14, that is just wrong,
12 is it?
13 A. Yeah, that is wrong.
14 Q. Subject to that clarification as well, are
15 the contents of the statement true to the best of your
16 knowledge and belief?
17 A. They are, yeah.
18 Q. Could we come to AM152.1, paragraphs 2 to 4?
19 You describe there how, on the morning of the march you
20 could not get into town because various streets were
21 closed?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And you describe in paragraph 3 recalling
24 soldiers being around and the soldiers shouting
25 comments like "we will sort you out today, boys"?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Can you tell us what time of day you are
3 talking about in this paragraph?
4 A. I could not recall the time exactly, to be
5 honest, no, but it was sorta twelve o'clock,
6 one o'clockish.
7 Q. In paragraph 4 you describe going on the
8 march and how the march was supposed to go all the way
9 east down William Street?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And in the next sentence you say:
12 "Some of the marchers branched off up
13 Lower Road"?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Was not there a barrier in Lower Road?
16 A. That is correct, there was indeed, yeah.
17 Q. Did they go up to the barrier?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. What happened then they got there?
20 A. I do not know to be honest, I went on down
21 William Street along with the rest of the march.
22 Q. You describe in the subsequent paragraphs how
23 your mother got you and took you back home to the flat
24 in Garvan Place?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. I think you have identified that on the map
2 for us at AM152.12. That is the flat you have marked
3 with the mark "A"; is that right?
4 A. That is correct, yeah.
5 Q. Am I right in thinking that you got into that
6 flat from the first balcony that you get to as you get
7 into block 1?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Over the page, if we can look at AM152.2,
10 I would like to look, if I may, at paragraphs 8 and 9.
11 Paragraph 8 is the one we were looking at a moment ago
12 where you describe how one of the Saracens caught your
13 eye?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. In paragraph 9 you describe this:
16 "As the Saracen stopped a soldier got out of
17 the front passenger seat. He was wearing riot gear.
18 He immediately turned his rifle upside down and started
19 using it like a baseball bat, clubbing people who were
20 running past."
21 You mean that literally, do you, using it
22 like a baseball bat?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How was he holding it?
25 A. More or less the rifle would have been upside
1 down as such.
2 Q. Which bit of the rifle was he holding?
3 A. He would have been holding the front end
4 where the bullets would come out.
5 Q. Could you speak a little closer to the
6 microphone as your voice is beginning to fade.
7 A. Sorry.
8 Q. If we look at AM152.10, this is your
9 statement at the time. If we look at the second
10 paragraph, the one marked "2", what you were recorded
11 as saying is this:
12 "One soldier jumped out from the front seat.
13 He ran over to the wall at the back of
14 Chamberlain Street. The rest of the soldiers in the
15 back jumped out. He caught a man and holding him with
16 one hand beat him with a rifle butt."
17 That rather suggests that he was holding the
18 rifle in some way, but rather than using it as if it
19 was a baseball bat, holding it in such a way that he
20 could strike with the butt of the rifle as opposed to
21 the side?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Is that what you think you meant at the time?
24 A. You see, to be quite honest, I do not really
25 recall making that very first statement.
1 Q. But you have a recollection now, do you, of
2 the rifle being used as if it was a baseball bat?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. But the people whom you describe him as
5 clubbing as they ran past, did you see any of them
6 fall?
7 A. No, they did not actually fall, no, because
8 he would have hit some of them either on the arms or
9 the shoulders, whatever. None of them went down.
10 Q. Could we come, please, to paragraphs 12 and
11 13 on AM152.2? You describe in paragraph 12 how almost
12 immediately that the Saracen arrived in the car park,
13 you heard the sound of gunfire, shots coming in ones,
14 twos and threes?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. You say that you could not see who was
17 firing. Could you see who or what was being fired at?
18 A. Um, at different times you could see where
19 there was, where there was, um, bullets hitting walls
20 and what have you, but at that particular time at the
21 back of the flats, no, I could not.
22 Q. You describe in the next paragraph how your
23 attention was caught by a man who had managed to run
24 past the soldier at point "B"?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. That is the same soldier as was using his
2 rifle like a baseball bat, is it?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. You say that he continued running and you
5 assumed that he intended to go through the gap between
6 block 1 and 2?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. "He was carrying a bottle in at least one of
9 his hands; there may well have been a bottle in each
10 hand ..."?
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. Could you see what type of bottle it was?
13 A. Just an ordinary bottle.
14 Q. You say that while he was still a few paces
15 away from the gap, he turned and gestured to what you
16 assume were some friends to follow him through; is that
17 right?
18 A. For actually to stop and come back again, not
19 to follow him through.
20 Q. When you say "to stop and come back again",
21 to stop and come back where?
22 A. To come back through the gap again to have a
23 go at the soldiers or whatever you would want to call
24 it. He had his two bottles and as far as he was
25 concerned, he was shouting things like "stop" but he
1 was running for it and so on, and he was calling his
2 friends or whoever he was along with for to come back
3 again.
4 Q. So he was calling for his friends to come and
5 take the soldiers on, was he?
6 A. Yeah, that is right.
7 Q. Were these friends that were closer to the
8 gap between blocks 1 and 2 than he was, that is to say
9 people who had gone further south?
10 A. Yeah, that is correct.
11 Q. You say that he shouted something like "let
12 us get the fucking bastards"?
13 A. That is right, yeah.
14 Q. At which point the soldier at "B" went down
15 on one knee and fired at the man?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. You actually saw his shoulder jerk backwards,
18 did you?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. You say that you saw a discharge from the
21 gun?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. What did you actually see?
24 A. Um, just a bit of smoke and --
25 Q. You describe how the man at point "E" fell
1 either onto his front or onto his side?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Do you know who that man was?
4 A. I do not know, no.
5 Q. You do not know now?
6 A. Sorry?
7 Q. You do not know now?
8 A. No, still do not, no.
9 Q. At the time when this was happening, the man
10 who is shot falls having called on people to face the
11 soldiers.
12 What was the position about the people in the
13 car park of the flats? Take the man himself; when you
14 had seen him running and then stop, were there people
15 in his vicinity?
16 A. Just a few, yeah.
17 Q. When you say "just a few", what sort of
18 number do you mean by that?
19 A. Maybe five, six, seven.
20 Q. And when he stopped and said what he said,
21 what happened to the people around him?
22 A. There was a couple, a couple of people
23 stopped as well as him.
24 Q. What did they do?
25 A. They started to come back the ways with them.
1 Q. Did they have anything in their hands?
2 A. I do not recall to be honest, no.
3 Q. Further to the south of him, that is closer
4 to the middle block of the Rossville Flats, were there
5 still people trying to get out of the flats at that
6 stage?
7 A. Um, are you talking about now down in the
8 back square as well, at the --
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. There was, um, quite a few people was hiding
11 behind the wall that went along the back door of the
12 row of shops.
13 Q. Were there people trying to get out of the
14 gap between the blocks of flats or could you not see?
15 A. I could not see that. There was people had
16 ran through and got through to the other side, um, but,
17 as I say then, there was maybe 20, 30 people that was
18 hiding behind the walls both along the back, back wall
19 of the shops and up beside the swings.
20 Q. Were there any people still trying to get
21 through the gap?
22 A. No, they had already got -- anybody that
23 wanted through was through at that time.
24 Q. If we go back to paragraph 14 where we were,
25 you then say:
1 "The man who was shot was in his
2 mid-twenties"?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. But other than that you cannot describe what
5 he looked like?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You then say this, that you can remember
8 seeing another man lying on the courtyard?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. About 12 or 14 feet from where the man that
11 you had seen being shot fell?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Had you noticed that man before you saw the
14 man who was shot?
15 A. Um, about the same time, yeah.
16 Q. About the same time?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. When you first saw that other man, was he
19 then lying on the courtyard?
20 A. No, he was standing.
21 Q. He was standing?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. What happened to him; what did you see happen
24 to him?
25 A. I did not see anything happen to him, to be
1 honest. One minute he was standing and whenever
2 I looked back to the Saracen and then looked back down
3 again then he was on the ground.
4 Q. You had seen him standing and then
5 subsequently you had seen him fallen, but you had not
6 seen him actually fall, is that right?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. Do you know who that man was?
9 A. I do not, no.
10 Q. Did you see what happened to either of these
11 two men?
12 A. Um, the, the fella that had the bottles
13 I seen him, he was shouting for his friends, maybe they
14 were not friends, but just people that was there at the
15 march at the same time for to turn and come back or
16 whatever.
17 The soldier then, as I say, got down on the
18 one knee and fired a few shots. Between times looking
19 one way and looking the other, I did not see what
20 happened to the first fella, but to my recollection of
21 the thing, he, that soldier done on the one knee shot,
22 shot the fella with the milk bottle.
23 Q. What I was interested in finding out is, what
24 happened to that man after he had been shot?
25 A. I do not know, I honestly do not know.
1 Q. What about the second man who you saw fallen?
2 A. I do not know either.
3 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If we could go to AM152.10, this is your
6 statement or what is said to be your statement at the
7 time. If you look at paragraph 3, what you are
8 recorded as having said is this:
9 "There was a Knight of Malta standing there
10 at the wall and I saw him fall."
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Do you recollect seeing a Knight of Malta
13 standing at a wall and then seeing him fall?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Was that before or after the two people that
16 you have just been telling us fell?
17 A. I think it was before.
18 Q. Then the statement goes on to read this:
19 "There was a boy already shot in the back in
20 the middle of the car park. A small crowd gathered
21 round him to try and help him and they were waving
22 hankies."
23 Do you know who that is a reference to?
24 A. I do not to be honest, no.
25 Q. The sentences then go on to read:
1 "The soldier at the wall aimed the gun at
2 this crowd and started firing but the man managed to
3 get the body away."
4 Do you recollect any of that?
5 A. I do not, to be honest, no.
6 Q. We know that a boy called Jack Duddy died in
7 the courtyard. Did you know Jack Duddy at the time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I want to show you a photograph. Could we
10 have photograph P627? This is a photograph looking
11 into the southwest corner of the car park. Block 1 of
12 the flats is there and your flat would have been
13 somewhere off the picture (marked with red arrows)?
14 A. Yeah, that is right.
15 Q. Do you recollect seeing this scene or
16 anything like it?
17 A. Um, that would have been the fella that I had
18 seen getting shot. In fact there should be another
19 body further on over to the left as well as I look at
20 the picture, if I would be right. That is the fella
21 had the milk bottle there.
22 Q. Which one is the fellow who had a milk
23 bottle?
24 A. This fella that is lying down there.
25 Q. The one who is lying on the ground?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Can we have 628, it is a closer up photograph
3 of the same scene; do you recognise that fellow?
4 A. I do not know him one way or the other, no,
5 I do not know. Whenever I say that is the fella had
6 the milk bottle, there was only actually two, well, two
7 that I seen anyway, two fellas that were shot at the
8 back of the flats and one was near enough dead centre
9 with the entrance, near enough and the other fella
10 would have been about 10 feet to his right.
11 Q. Taking it in stages: do you actually
12 recognise that person lying on the ground as somebody
13 who had bottles in his hand or not?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. It is the positioning that you are talking
16 about, is it?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. When you say that one of them was near enough
19 dead centre with the entrance, what exactly do you mean
20 by that, which entrance are you talking about?
21 A. You showed a picture there previous.
22 Q. Let us have 627 back again. There is an
23 entrance to the flats?
24 A. There is an entrance -- not the entrance to
25 the flats, but the entrance that takes you between.
1 Q. You mean the alleyway between the flats?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. So do you mean that one of them was near to
4 being in line with the alleyway --
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. -- of the flats?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And the other one?
9 A. The other fella was about ten feet up this
10 way.
11 Q. Which way, looking at the photograph?
12 A. As I am looking at the photo it would have
13 been 10 foot to the left.
14 Q. 10 foot to the east, I follow. Thank you
15 very much. Can we go back, please, to AM152.3,
16 paragraphs 16 and 17? You describe in paragraph 16 how
17 around this time you heard some of the people who were
18 taking cover outside shouting to someone to put the gun
19 away?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Could you tell where those people were who
22 were shouting that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You say that that drew your attention to
25 somebody standing to the side of a type of chimney
1 jutting out from the gable end wall of the houses on
2 the --
3 A. Chamberlain Street.
4 Q. -- on the western side of Chamberlain Street?
5 A. That is correct, yeah.
6 Q. You describe how you saw somebody holding a
7 pistol in his hand?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And you say that the photograph that is
10 attached to your statement is one of somebody whom you
11 are not sure is the man that you saw.
12 We now have a better version of the
13 photograph than the one that is attached to your
14 statement. Could we have a look at E14.004? That is
15 the best version we have so far of this photograph.
16 Does that bring back any recollection of the person
17 whom you saw?
18 A. Could well be. If he was sitting here or
19 standing here today, I could not say that that was or
20 was not him, but there was a fella at that wall with a
21 gun, yeah.
22 Q. Was that the sort of place that you saw him?
23 A. Yeah, in fact he actually moved, he was close
24 to there, but further on up, then he was nearer
25 Chamberlain Street at one stage and he had moved along
1 the wall.
2 Q. Did you see only one such person apparently
3 holding a pistol in his hand or did you see more than
4 one?
5 A. Only one.
6 Q. May we come back to AM152.3, paragraph 17:
7 you describe how you could not see any other civilians
8 or soldiers apart from the people that you have
9 previously described in your statement, but you say in
10 the third line that:
11 "When the soldiers initially came in, bottles
12 and bricks were thrown from the windows of the
13 Rossville Flats"; are you able to be any more precise
14 as to whereabouts in the Rossville Flats bottles and
15 bricks were thrown from?
16 A. It had to be from the end which would have
17 been nearest William Street.
18 Q. The end of the block that is nearest
19 William Street?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Could you see what they were being thrown at?
22 A. The Saracen.
23 Q. May we then go to paragraphs 19 and 20: you
24 describe how after you saw the man at point "E" shot,
25 you went mad, even tried to get out of the window to
1 get at the soldiers and then went up the stairs and
2 into the living room; is that right?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. You describe --
5 A. It would not actually be right, um, at this
6 stage we were up the stairs because I had watched this
7 from upstairs.
8 LORD SAVILLE: You were watching from one of
9 the bedrooms, as I understand it?
10 A. Yeah, that is correct.
11 LORD SAVILLE: So you simply walked to the
12 other side of the flat to get into the living room?
13 A. That is correct, yeah.
14 MR CLARKE: Thank you. And you describe
15 there looking from the window with the barricade
16 slightly to your right?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And seeing two fellows lying on the ground on
19 the south side of the barricade?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. With an elderly man with them?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. You say that you cannot remember how they
24 were lying, but are you able to tell us whereabouts in
25 the barricade they were between block 1 of the flats on
1 the one side and Glenfada Park which is on the other;
2 are you able to indicate whereabouts along that line
3 they were?
4 A. Yeah, they were on the Glenfada side.
5 Q. On the Glenfada side?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. At the top of the next page you describe how
8 the elderly man was crouched down?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And you had the impression that he was trying
11 to move the others, and you describe how he kept his
12 head down but moved his hand above the barricade?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. And then you say this:
15 "I saw lumps fly up from the barricade near
16 to his hand"?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. "Generally I saw lumps and dust fly from the
19 barricade due to shots being fired at it."
20 Could we have on the screen photograph P424?
21 That is a photograph, not taken on the day, of the
22 rubble barricade from the entrance door to the
23 Rossville Flats?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Would you be able to indicate on this
1 photograph approximately where you saw lumps and dust
2 fly up from the barricade?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. We can give you control so that you can do it
5 yourself.
6 A. (Marked with a blue arrow)
7 Q. Is that approximately where the bodies that
8 you saw and the elderly man were?
9 A. That is approximately where the elderly man
10 was. The other two bodies would have been slightly to
11 the left.
12 Q. Slightly to the left of the photograph as we
13 look at it?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. May we preserve that image as AM152.13?
16 A. Where the arrow stopped there, that is
17 slightly too far down, that is, um, just -- as you see
18 the barricade is made up of lumps and concrete and what
19 have you and the lumps of dust and whatever came from
20 bits of concrete that were jutting up at the top.
21 Q. They came from the top of where the arrow is?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. May we then go to paragraph 22 on AM152.4?
24 You say in paragraph 22 that the next thing that caught
25 your attention was a group of three men standing at the
1 southern gable wall of the eastern block of
2 Glenfada Park North and one of them popped his head
3 around the corner to look north up Rossville Street and
4 as he withdrew his head, you saw two lumps fly off the
5 corner and you assumed that he had been fired at?
6 A. That is correct, yeah.
7 Q. Could we have a look at photograph P297?
8 Sorry, that is not what I am looking for. I will come
9 back to that in a moment.
10 Can we go back to paragraph 22? You describe
11 there how, after you saw the two lumps fly off the
12 corner, another of the men gestured across to the
13 Rossville Flats?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Could you see what he was trying to signify?
16 A. Between the three of them they were trying to
17 find out or trying to decide which way they were going
18 to run or which way they were going to go, and one of
19 them made the gesture about going towards the
20 Rossville Flats. Obviously they decided against that
21 and another one of them made a gesture about going
22 towards the Credit Union which would have been up
23 towards Abbey Street.
24 Q. You describe seeing the group of three men
25 who were standing there?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Were they the only people that you saw at
3 this gable end at this stage?
4 A. The only people that I recall seeing there,
5 yeah.
6 Q. You then describe how they ran towards the
7 gap between Glenfada Park North and South and you say
8 that:
9 "They were all shot as they ran along."
10 Did you see them actually fall?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And you describe the positions where they
13 fell in your map at AM152.12 as "N", "M" and "L"?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. You say that you think the man at "L" went
16 down first?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Is that right?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. At a time when the man at "M" was still on
21 his feet?
22 A. He was trying to get in the back gate and he
23 had his one arm over the, over the top to get the wee
24 hook or whatever that was keeping the gate closed.
25 Q. And you describe how the man at "M" appeared
1 to be shot twice?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Once whilst on his feet and then with a
4 second shot which caused him to buckle.
5 What caused you to think exactly that he had
6 been shot twice?
7 A. He made two, two different moves, you know:
8 one where he went down first as such and then he seemed
9 to get a thump again when he took another jerk.
10 Q. And you describe how the guy who fell at the
11 position marked "N" had run like the devil but did not
12 quite make it through the gap?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. Is that right?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Are you able to give any form of description
17 of any of the persons at "L", "M" or "N"?
18 A. None whatsoever.
19 Q. Could we have a look at a photograph P687?
20 This is a photograph that was taken on the day. It is
21 taken from the northwest entrance into Glenfada Park,
22 in other words, block 1 where you were was in that
23 direction and the alleyway to which they were going is
24 out in that direction.
25 This is a photograph of three bodies; not
1 quite, but not far from the line in which you describe
2 them on the map, in that there is a man on the right
3 whose legs one can just see at the corner of the car
4 park and two people quite close to each other, one in
5 the gutter and one on the pavement?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. You would of course have been looking from a
8 completely different angle, in this direction, but do
9 you think that may represent something like what you
10 saw by the time all three of them had fallen?
11 A. That would be it all right. Obviously some
12 one of the two that is together had tried to get in
13 that back gate and that is why there was a difference,
14 but whenever he fell, that is obviously why he fell.
15 Q. When you saw these people running and then
16 falling, were you conscious of there being any other
17 people in Glenfada Park North?
18 A. No, not to say there was nobody else there,
19 but these are the only three fellas that stick out in
20 my mind, do you know.
21 Q. If we can go back to a photograph that
22 I wanted to show you before; can we look at P435? This
23 is a photograph taken of the gable end wall of
24 Glenfada Park North at the east side. Ignore the
25 people for the moment. Would you be able to identify
1 on that photograph where you saw two lumps fly off the
2 corner?
3 A. Yeah (marked with a blue arrow).
4 Q. Could you do that? Where your blue arrow is?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Quite low down, in other words?
7 A. Just wherever, wherever the fella looked. He
8 duked round the corner the once and then the two, the
9 two pieces came out of the wall then after it.
10 Q. The place that you have marked on the
11 photograph is below head height?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. You mean that, do you?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Could we preserve that image as, I think,
16 AM152.14?
17 You have described seeing three people at
18 this gable end?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. As we can see from this photograph, and
21 indeed from others, there was certainly a time in which
22 there were considerably more people at the gable end
23 and a larger group at the west side of the gable end.
24 Did you ever see anything like that?
25 A. I honestly could not say either yes or no,
1 I have to say that the only thing that sticks out in my
2 mind at that particular time was the three fellas who
3 was just having the confab among themselves to see what
4 they were going to do, or decide what they were going
5 to do and they were shot. Obviously the people were
6 there, but I honestly do not recall seeing them.
7 Q. It may be this photograph is of a scene that
8 took place before you looked out in this direction.
9 Can we have a look at AM152.4, paragraph 24?
10 You say there that you think it was around this time
11 that you noticed a line of Saracen and Ferret cars
12 parked across Rossville Street?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. And then your statement goes on to read
15 something that has become obliterated in typescript:
16 "One of the Saracens"; what did you see one
17 of the Saracens do? It is "[something] up the curve to
18 the rubble barricade"?
19 A. Oh, right, that is whenever the Saracen came
20 up to lift the two fellas who were shot. It came up
21 and reversed back and the soldiers got out and fired
22 the bodies in and made the elderly man to carry on or
23 do whatever he wanted to do.
24 Q. When you say that one of the Saracens came up
25 and reversed back?
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Do you mean by that that it drove through a
3 gap in the barricade?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. And then reversed so that the back of the
6 Saracen was level with the barricade?
7 A. Yeah, that is right.
8 Q. And then the bodies were put into the
9 Saracens by soldiers; is that right?
10 A. Yes, put in, threw in, fired in or whatever.
11 Q. May we then come over the page at AM152.5?
12 You describe in paragraph 26 moving back downstairs to
13 the bedroom that overlooks Rossville Street?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Is that right?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. And you describe how there were a number of
18 people there, a man and his girlfriend whom you did not
19 then know, but whom you now understand were
20 Fulvio Grimaldi and Susan North; is that right?
21 A. That is correct, yeah.
22 Q. Do you know how they had come to be there at
23 that stage?
24 A. Um, there was quite a few people that came to
25 the door looking to use the telephone and what have you
1 because there was not that many people had telephones
2 at the time, and we just happened to be one of the
3 people that did. I assume that was one of the main
4 reasons why there was people there.
5 Q. If we look at paragraph 27 of your statement,
6 you describe how the windows of the flats could be
7 rotated?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. You go on to say this:
10 "I am not sure whether the photographer did
11 not understand how this worked or whether the wind
12 caught the window, but whilst he was taking photographs
13 the window he was at revolved right round and live
14 shots were fired in through the window."
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Do you mean by that that the shots came at
17 the time when he was actually taking photographs?
18 A. Yeah, first one.
19 Q. And when you say that live shots were fired
20 in through the window, do you mean that they broke
21 through the glass or that the window was open and that
22 allowed the shots to go through the open window?
23 A. They came through the glass.
24 Q. I have not quite understood the sequence
25 whereby the window revolved. Can you explain to me
1 exactly what happened?
2 A. The window revolves because, because of the
3 height of the flats there is a ratchet on the
4 right-hand side which allows the window to turn inside
5 out for cleaning purposes. So whenever he was talking
6 the photographs, he actually wanted to take a better
7 photo or whatever, I do not really know to be honest,
8 but while he was doing that he wanted the window open
9 that wee bit further, so he touched the ratchet and
10 I do not know whether it was the wind or whether he
11 pushed the window a wee bit hard or whatever, but the
12 window then done a full, a full turn.
13 Q. When you say that "it did a full turn"?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Is the effect of that to present to the
16 outside world what was previously the inside of the
17 window?
18 A. That is correct, yeah.
19 Q. The shots that came, did they go, as it were,
20 through the inside of the window which was now --
21 A. Outside.
22 Q. Which was now outside?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Could we have a look, please, at photograph
25 P544 and could we lighten that up a bit? This is a
1 photograph of a window in the Rossville Flats, or
2 rather a window in two parts. It appears to show in it
3 something like six holes, three on the left and three
4 on the right-hand side of the window as we look at it?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Do you know whether that is the window of the
7 flat in which you then lived?
8 A. That is the window, but where the photos were
9 getting taken from was the right-hand window.
10 Q. Sorry, I do not quite understand what you
11 mean.
12 A. You see, there you have two windows: you
13 have a small one on the left-hand side and you have the
14 larger one on the right-hand side. Where the photos
15 were getting taken from was the right hand one.
16 Q. I follow; the window that is on the
17 right-hand side of the photograph as we look at it now?
18 A. Yeah, that is correct.
19 Q. That is the one that rotates, is it?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Round an axis which is presumably in the
22 middle of the window?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. May we then go back to paragraphs 27 to 29 of
25 your statement on AM152.5? You describe how the
1 bullets came through and hit the back wall?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Shattered and caused fragments to go
4 everywhere and how the room became a wreck; is that
5 right?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. You then decided to take cover. How many
8 people were there in the room when these bullets came
9 winging through?
10 A. I would say about five, maybe six of us.
11 Q. You, your mother was there, was she?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The two foreign people?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Anybody else you recall?
16 A. Sister Adeline, and I am not sure if Louise
17 was there or not.
18 Q. And you then describe how you took cover,
19 yourself and one of your sisters, in the toilet?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And your mother and two of your other sisters
22 in the bathroom?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Upstairs. You say you are not sure where
25 everybody else hid.
1 Do you know what happened to Fulvio Grimaldi
2 and Susan North after this?
3 A. I do not to be honest, no.
4 Q. But as you say in paragraph 29, you have been
5 played an excerpt of a tape-recording on which you can
6 identify your mother's voice shouting at the journalist
7 and can also identify, you think, your sister Adeline's
8 voice?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Is that right? What I would like to do, if
11 we could now, is to have up on the screen M35.61.
12 This, I think, is the relevant part of the
13 transcript. It is the part that is identified in your
14 statement as beginning at page 32. I would like to
15 play the relevant portion, which begins I think at the
16 top. Perhaps we can identify where your mother's voice
17 is and where your sister's voice is. Could we have
18 audio 9?
19 (Audio tape played)
20 Q. Just a few questions on that: the recording
21 shows an awful lot of background noise. There appears
22 to have been a television on at some stage, which
23 bizarrely had an advertisement for the army just at the
24 moment when everybody was taking cover; is that right?
25 A. Appropriate, yeah.
1 Q. If we go back to M35.61, the female voice
2 which we see in the middle saying "that is you for
3 taking the photographs", that was your mum?
4 A. That was my mum, yes, that is right.
5 Q. We can pick up an English voice with a slight
6 foreign accent, which is presumably Fulvio Grimaldi,
7 and an English woman's voice without an accent, which
8 is presumably Susan North.
9 There appears to be a male voice with an
10 Irish accent; do you know who that was?
11 A. No.
12 Q. The reference to your sister, if we go to
13 M35.64, I do not know whether I have picked it up
14 correctly, but at the second line down in the
15 transcript, there is a passage which says "oh, Louise
16 is scared"; is that your sister?
17 A. That is Adeline, yeah.
18 Q. That is Adeline?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Throughout this interlude, what was going on;
21 were you being shooed into a place of safety, either
22 the toilet or the bathroom or was something else
23 happening?
24 A. We were actually on the ground at that stage
25 after the shots came through. We did not know where to
1 go, but the downstairs toilet, there was two solid
2 walls to that and it was the Grimaldi fellow, he was
3 saying "there is no windows there, stay down, stay
4 down" and what have you, but again it is only a wee
5 small toilet so that is why some went upstairs to the
6 bathroom and some stayed down.
7 Q. The last matter, if we go to AM152.10, you,
8 in the paragraph that is marked "7" in your statement
9 at the time where you are dealing with the position
10 after you had seen men thrown into the Saracens, are
11 recorded as saying this:
12 "They returned down Rossville Street.
13 I looked back at Glenfada where the three men had been
14 shot. There was a girl from the Knights of Malta
15 standing waving a hanky. There were about ten men
16 behind her taking three bodies away. I heard shots and
17 the girl started to run back into the alley. When she
18 ran back in, the crowd disappeared behind Glenfada."
19 Do you have any recollection of that now?
20 A. I do not to be honest, no.
21 Q. None at all?
22 A. None.
23 Q. Those are all my questions.
24 Questioned by MS SMYTH
25 MS SMYTH: My name is Patricia Smyth and
1 I represent a number of the families, including the
2 family of Jackie Duddy. I have some questions for you,
3 Mr McCrudden.
4 Could I ask you to look, please, at your 1972
5 statement, that is at AM152.10 and if that could be put
6 on the screen, please? Can I ask you to look at the
7 third paragraph, starting from the second line:
8 "There was a boy already shot in the back in
9 the middle of the car park. A small crowd gathered
10 round him to try and help him and they were waving
11 hankies. The soldier at the wall aimed the gun at this
12 crowd and started firing, but the man managed to get
13 the body away. After that the back was deserted except
14 for soldiers."
15 Is that something you have a memory of this
16 morning?
17 A. It is not to be honest, no.
18 Q. Can I ask you to look at photograph 631, if
19 that could be put on the screen? This is a photograph,
20 Mr McCrudden, of Jackie Duddy being carried away to
21 safety from the car park; do you follow?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Can you see that two of the people in that
24 photograph are both carrying hankies. I wonder if
25 I could have control of the screen, please. We cannot
1 get control on this machine.
2 Can you see the man on the right of that
3 group, the man with the bald head?
4 A. Father Daly.
5 Q. That is Father Daly, yes. Can you see he is
6 carrying a white handkerchief?
7 A. I can, yeah.
8 Q. Can you also see that the witness, second in
9 from the left if you look just below the body of Jackie
10 Duddy, he also appears to have a handkerchief?
11 A. A-huh.
12 Q. Can you see that?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Does that photograph ring any bells with you?
15 A. The photograph does, yes, but to be quite
16 honest I do not remember them lifting him and taking
17 him away, that could have been the time whenever me
18 mother was giving me the battering or the hiding or
19 whatever you want to call it because at one stage, as
20 I said before, I cracked up.
21 Q. Can I ask you this: do you think that
22 photograph might depict what you were trying to tell
23 Mr Fee in 1972 when you were describing a boy who had
24 already been shot in the back and a crowd around him
25 with handkerchiefs?
1 A. Could be.
2 Q. It could be, yes?
3 A. Could be, yeah.
4 Q. Can I then ask you to look, please, at
5 photograph 627, if that could be put on the screen?
6 Mr McCrudden, on the ground you will see on
7 this photograph another picture of Jackie Duddy; do you
8 see that?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. That is Jackie Duddy who is in that
11 photograph. Can I say, first of all, to you that we
12 have heard from a number of witnesses to date who saw
13 Jackie Duddy being shot and falling to the ground. Can
14 I say to you that no-one, certainly to my knowledge,
15 has ever suggested that Jackie Duddy ever had a bottle
16 in either one or both hands; do you follow me?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. In fact we have heard in particular from
19 Father Daly who was running alongside Jackie Duddy at
20 the time he was shot and Father Daly has made quite
21 clear that Jackie Duddy had nothing in his hands when
22 he was shot; do you follow me?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. You told Mr Clarke that the person in this
25 photograph on the ground is in fact the person whom you
1 saw with a bottle in at least one of his hands?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Is it not right to say that you are mistaken
4 about that, the identity of that person, and that he is
5 not the person whom you have described in paragraphs 13
6 and 14 as having a bottle in each hand and egging on,
7 if you like, his companions to have a go at the army?
8 A. Well, as I says before --
9 Q. Could you keep your voice up, Mr McCrudden?
10 A. Sorry. As I said earlier, there was two men
11 that I seen that were shot in the back of the flats:
12 one nearly in line with the entrance and then there was
13 another fella then who was about 10 feet away to the,
14 as we are looking at the picture to the left-hand
15 side. If that is the fella who is closest to the
16 entrance, or closer in line with the entrance, then
17 that is the fella had the bottle, unless there is
18 another body further down to his right.
19 Q. You were actually very young on
20 Bloody Sunday, were you not, Mr McCrudden; you were
21 12 years old?
22 A. That is right, yeah.
23 Q. This was a very distressing incident for you?
24 A. It was indeed.
25 Q. Would you not accept that you may be mistaken
1 about the identity of this man on the ground, given
2 what I have told you about the evidence we have already
3 heard in this case?
4 A. Could be. There was one fella that was shot
5 had a bottle; the other fella, I do not know what he
6 had or did not have.
7 Q. What I am suggesting to you, Mr McCrudden, is
8 that this man in the photograph, Jackie Duddy, was not
9 the man who had a bottle or who behaved in the way you
10 have described at paragraph 13; would you accept that
11 might be correct?
12 A. Could be.
13 Q. Just in relation to this man at paragraph 14,
14 the man who fell at point "E", you made an assumption
15 that that man had been shot. I am not being critical
16 in any way, but you made an assumption he had been
17 shot?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. It is right to say you yourself did not see
20 any injury of any kind on that person?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. You did not see him carried away by anyone?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you were making your 1972 statement, and
25 to your credit given your very young age it is a very
1 detailed statement, is that not right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can I ask you to look again at paragraphs
4 2 and 3 of AM152.10? These are the paragraphs in which
5 you recorded what you saw in the car park that day?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Is it not right to say that, certainly when
8 you were recording your recollections, you did not make
9 any mention of a man at point "E" whom you believed
10 you saw being shot?
11 A. Sorry?
12 Q. Is it not right to say, looking at your
13 statement in 1972, you did not refer to a man whom you
14 actually saw shot at point "E"?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Is that not right?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Can I suggest to you, Mr McCrudden, that the
19 reason you did not make any reference to that man in
20 1972 is because, at that time it was not your
21 impression that that man in fact had been shot and that
22 that is an impression that you now have nearly 30 years
23 later, but which was not an impression you had at the
24 time?
25 A. No, I knew he was shot, or, as far as I was
1 concerned, he was shot and it was not an assumption
2 I had that day and do not have today. I knew that the
3 two men at the back of the flats were shot.
4 Q. Would you not agree with me that if in 1972
5 you had a clear impression of seeing a man shot in the
6 car park, you would have had it recorded in that
7 statement?
8 A. I cannot speak, as I say, about what happened
9 previous, but it is something that I remember. It
10 sticks out in my mind very, very well, the two fellas
11 that I had seen being shot, or that I took for granted
12 as being shot.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr McCrudden.
14 A. Welcome.
15 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD
16 MR MANSFIELD: Mr McCrudden, I represent the
17 Nash family and I have just a very few questions for
18 you. If we could have, please, back on the screen the
19 photograph you looked at before, which was photograph
20 424, please. Could we have the version, perhaps it was
21 not saved, sir, I cannot recall, he marked with a blue
22 arrow where he said he saw two bodies and the older
23 person alongside? AM152.13, please, where you have
24 marked it up.
25 LORD SAVILLE: I think it is going to be,
1 because the final reference number comes in a little
2 later, that is the one you wanted, is it?
3 MR MANSFIELD: That is the one. Just a
4 couple of questions first of all on this: dealing with
5 the older man who you originally described as wearing a
6 cap, that man; when you were looking out of your
7 window, which way was that older man facing as he was
8 on the barricade, can you remember or not? You can
9 either do it with reference to the photograph, in other
10 words, looking at this photograph was he facing up
11 Rossville Street, away from the barricade, or was he
12 facing some other way?
13 A. He would have been facing more towards
14 William Street.
15 Q. Facing towards William Street. And the shots
16 that you either -- you heard shots, did you, and you
17 saw the effect of the shots on the rubble barricade
18 because bits were flying up?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. From which direction were the shots coming?
21 A. From William Street.
22 Q. Again, still looking at this photograph, the
23 window from which you were looking, is it right that it
24 is between this entrance to the block of flats in which
25 yours was and the rubble barricade?
1 A. That is correct, yeah.
2 Q. For these purposes, just so we can get an
3 idea of the position you were in, could we have
4 photograph 305, please? This is a photograph looking
5 towards the rubble barricade and your block is on the
6 left; do you see that?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. We see rows of windows there. Working up
9 from the bottom, which row of windows was the window
10 out of which you were looking when you saw the older
11 man wearing the cap; can you tell or not now?
12 A. The second one.
13 Q. The second one up from the bottom?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. It is the second row and it was one of those
16 windows there. Yes, thank you very much indeed.
17 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
18 MR GLASGOW: Mr McCrudden, my name is Glasgow
19 and I represent a lot of the soldiers. Can I bring you
20 right back to the beginning of your statement? Before
21 I do so, can I make plain I am not going to suggest you
22 yourself did anything wrong on the day or you are doing
23 anything other than your best to recall what happened.
24 I make that plain, but ask you to help the Tribunal
25 with one or two small matters.
1 Can we go to the first page of your
2 statement, please, AM152.1? Just so that you can get
3 the general context of it, you describe being with the
4 march when it got to William Street?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. And your mother being very angry and actually
7 beating you?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Was she cross because you had disobeyed her
10 instruction in some way or simply because you were in
11 among the rioters?
12 A. Because I was in among the rioters.
13 Q. You were just in among them. Can you
14 remember, had you been with the, so to speak, breakaway
15 crowd that had run from the march towards the barrier,
16 or had you simply joined them after they were already
17 confronting the soldiers?
18 A. Just tagged along with them.
19 Q. You joined them or you ran with them when
20 they broke away?
21 A. No, I just tagged along with them.
22 Q. You tagged along?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. We have a photograph at P372; would you mind
25 looking at that when it comes on to the screen. We
1 believe that that shows the initial crowd of young men
2 as they ran away from the organised march towards
3 barrier 14.
4 Were you part of that crowd, or does it
5 refresh your memory at all, or did you come on the
6 scene later?
7 A. I went further back.
8 Q. You would have been further back?
9 A. (Witness nodding)
10 Q. So any running at the barrier like that had
11 happened before you got there?
12 A. Uh-huh (witness nodding)
13 Q. How long had you been there before your
14 mother came and grabbed you?
15 A. Just a few minutes.
16 Q. If it does not seem a silly question, you
17 have told the Tribunal already she was cross with you
18 rioting: was it something about this particular riot
19 that she was angry about you being involved in, or was
20 there a general family rule that you should not be
21 rioting?
22 A. Should not be rioting.
23 Q. You should not have been rioting at all?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Did you, either from what was said to you or
1 from what you heard anybody say, believe that this was
2 a particularly dangerous day from what your mother
3 said, or was this just a riot?
4 A. Well, there was an eerie thing from, from the
5 morning of, of the march itself, you know. I think
6 everybody knew it was not just going to be an ordinary
7 march.
8 Q. I am sorry, I missed the last bit.
9 "Everybody knew ..."
10 A. That it was not going to be an ordinary
11 march.
12 Q. Your understanding as a youngster was that,
13 at least some people, we must not say everyone,
14 realised there was going to be serious trouble?
15 A. (Witness nodding) More than likely, yeah.
16 Q. Mr McCrudden, do you have any idea why
17 Mr Grimaldi chose your mother's flat to take refuge and
18 photographs from?
19 A. I honestly do not know.
20 Q. Not at all?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Had you come across him before; had he
23 featured at all in family life?
24 A. Never.
25 Q. Never visited your flat before, so far as you
1 knew?
2 A. No.
3 Q. He was already there by the time your mother
4 got you home, or did he come and join the family?
5 A. He came after.
6 Q. He came and joined?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Was any explanation given by him that you
9 heard as to why he had chosen your mother's flat?
10 A. I think he wanted to use the telephone.
11 Q. He came to use the telephone. You had a
12 telephone?
13 A. Yeah. I am not sure now, but I think so.
14 Q. Can we go over the page, please, to AM152.2,
15 the ninth paragraph of your statement, and Mr Clarke,
16 who asked you questions first, has already asked you
17 questions, but I , on behalf specifically of one of the
18 soldiers, am going to suggest to you, without
19 criticism, that what you said in 1972 was right, and
20 I want to give you the opportunity of dealing with it.
21 So that you can understand it, Mr McCrudden,
22 the Tribunal has a statement from a soldier who has
23 always admitted that, while attempting to arrest a man,
24 he struck him over the head with a rifle butt.
25 That is approximately what you said at the
1 time, if you remember, and I wanted you to reconsider,
2 in the light of that information that I have given you,
3 what you said at paragraph 9 of this statement.
4 Do you think what is in this statement at
5 paragraph 9 about a soldier clubbing, effectively
6 everybody who passed is right, or may it be right what
7 you said at the time, that a soldier specifically hit
8 one man with his rifle butt?
9 A. Well, the same soldier hit more than one man.
10 Q. Do you remember as in paragraph 9, your words
11 were:
12 "Clubbing people who were running past"?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Simply indiscriminately, or picking out one
15 or more individuals?
16 A. Closest to him.
17 Q. Those closest to him?
18 A. Mmm.
19 Q. Very well. In paragraph 10, which is the
20 next paragraph down, you describe another soldier in
21 the third line.
22 You say:
23 "He went down on one knee and pointed his
24 rifle in all directions".
25 Did it appear to you that that soldier had
1 gone to the wall at the back of Chamberlain Street and
2 was taking cover and looking around at what was going
3 on; would that be consistent with what you saw?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. It would?
6 A. (Witness nodding)
7 LORD SAVILLE: Paragraph 10 talks about the
8 fence, that may be the fence that runs east/west,
9 Mr Glasgow.
10 MR GLASGOW: You are absolutely right, sir.
11 Perhaps I should ask Mr McCrudden. If we go back and
12 have a look at paragraph 10 together, you see the point
13 that the learned Chairman has just made, you refer to a
14 fence; do you see that?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Could we go to 152.10, which is your earlier
17 statement; you remember the one that you made in 1972?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Look at the second numbered paragraph.
20 I think you are dealing with the same incident,
21 although you have told us that your recollection is
22 different.
23 What you said there was:
24 "One soldier jumped out of the front seat."
25 I pause there. Is that still your
1 recollection, that it was the soldier who jumped out of
2 the front seat who went towards the back of
3 Chamberlain Street?
4 A. Um, no, I think the soldier that jumped out
5 of the front stayed at the side of the Saracen.
6 Q. Do you in fact think that the soldier who
7 jumped out of the front was the soldier who clubbed
8 people?
9 A. Yeah, yeah.
10 Q. I suggest to you that you are right. Going
11 on:
12 "He ran over to the wall at the back of
13 Chamberlain Street."
14 I am rightly corrected in respect of your new
15 sentence, you use the word "fence". Can you now
16 remember whether it was the wall at the back of
17 Chamberlain Street or the dividing fence?
18 A. It was the wall.
19 LORD SAVILLE: I see what you are saying,
20 Mr Glasgow. The trouble is paragraphs 9 and 10 of the
21 contemporary statement seem to be dealing with two
22 different soldiers?
23 A. That is right.
24 LORD SAVILLE: In other words, in paragraph 9
25 the soldier who is clubbing people, staying on the east
1 side of the Saracen --
2 A. That is the soldier who done the shooting.
3 LORD SAVILLE: And then the other soldier,
4 going to the fence at the back of one of the houses on
5 the western side of Chamberlain Street, is what appears
6 in paragraph 10?
7 A. Two different.
8 LORD SAVILLE: So I am a little puzzled
9 myself at the moment as to what the witness is saying
10 as a result of your questions. I am sorry, perhaps you
11 had better not exactly start again, but try again.
12 MR GLASGOW: I will. The criticism is
13 perfectly fair. It is my fault, Mr McCrudden, not
14 yours. We are trying to make sense of the two
15 statements. So that there is no confusion, I hope on
16 my part, I am generally suggesting to you that your
17 recollection in the 1972 statement may have been more
18 accurate.
19 Coming back to page 152.2, which is the
20 statement to this Inquiry, can we look first at
21 paragraphs 9 and 10 together? First of all, the
22 soldier who got out from the passenger seat, in
23 paragraph 9?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. That was the soldier who hit people, to use
1 it neutrally, with his gun?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. I inaccurately put to you that a soldier
4 admits hitting with the butt of his rifle. The right
5 word was "stock", but I do not know whether that makes
6 any sense to you, the side, the middle of the rifle; is
7 that consistent with what you saw?
8 A. It would be, but it was not the fact that he
9 had his two hands on the thing. He had his two hands
10 on it, but more or less an upside down effort.
11 Q. That soldier you are clear about, he gets out
12 of the passenger seat and he hits people?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Paragraph 10, the soldier who went away from
15 the Saracen?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. As you are looking at him, to the right and
18 away from you?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Did he go to a fence or to the wall at the
21 back of Chamberlain Street?
22 A. To the wall.
23 Q. To the wall?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And he is the soldier who you, I think have
1 agreed with me, was behaving as if he was taking cover
2 and looking around?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Pointing his gun, but not shooting?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. If we go down to paragraph 12, Mr McCrudden,
7 that is the paragraph where your recollection today
8 is. You say:
9 "Almost immediately that the Saracen arrived
10 in the car park I heard the sound of gunfire."
11 Are you there talking about the same Saracen,
12 what we have been calling Saracens?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. That the two soldiers got out of, or one of
15 the other ones?
16 A. No, the same one. That is the only Saracen
17 came into the back of the flats.
18 Q. That is the only one you saw which was close
19 to the entrance to the car park?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. To make it clear: you are not disputing that
22 there was another Saracen further up to the north, but
23 I think you would not have been able to see that far
24 up?
25 A. I would not have seen it.
1 Q. Was there already the sound of firing, I use
2 that term deliberately, rubber guns, whatever, the
3 sound of firing going on before the Saracen that you
4 saw arrive turned up; had you already heard some
5 firing?
6 A. Previous to it? Yeah.
7 Q. Immediately before?
8 A. Um, I do not recall to be honest. I could
9 not actually put a --
10 Q. Do you recall that there was -- I should have
11 asked you this, forgive me -- even at that age you knew
12 the difference between rubber bullet guns and rifles?
13 A. Oh, aye.
14 Q. Had you heard rubber bullet guns being fired
15 before the scene that you have just described?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. You had heard that?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. So there were some rubber bullet guns firing
20 before the firing that you are referring to in
21 paragraph 12?
22 A. That is correct, yeah.
23 Q. And would I be right to suggest that the live
24 rounds that you heard fired were fired after you saw
25 the soldier run over to the wall at the back of
1 Chamberlain Street and point his gun around?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. So although you say "almost immediately", it
4 was once the soldiers had got into their positions?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. And you had seen at least one of them
7 pointing his gun around, then something happened and
8 live gunfire started?
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. That is the position. Was there quite a lot
11 of noise at that stage, generally, of firing of
12 different kinds?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Did there come a stage when the rubber bullet
15 gun stopped; did that noise stop and only live firing
16 continue?
17 A. That is right, whenever, whenever the army
18 actually came in itself, then the rubber bullets had
19 ceased.
20 Q. Was there still a noise of different types of
21 firing?
22 A. There was, aye.
23 Q. There was still the noise of different types,
24 and you are sure about that?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. The Tribunal has had different accounts of
2 rapid fire and what some people doubtless honestly
3 thought was automatic fire?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Would you at your age, that sounds
6 patronising, it is not meant to, but you were 12
7 I think?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Would you have known the difference between
10 the noise of automatic fire or rapid fire from
11 semi-automatic guns at that age?
12 A. I would not know that, no.
13 Q. All you do recall is whatever was doing the
14 firing, they were different types of noise that you
15 heard?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. While we are on that page, Mr McCrudden, in
18 paragraph 13 you deal with a man who ran out and then
19 you go on to deal with the man who was lying in the car
20 park?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. It has been put to you this afternoon that
23 the young man seen lying there, who we know was
24 Jackie Duddy, was the person who you described as
25 having a bottle, or that he might have had a bottle.
1 I think it is right you should know that neither I nor
2 any of my colleagues has ever suggested that
3 Jackie Duddy had a bottle. It is right I should put
4 that to you, lest you think there is some dispute
5 between us about it?
6 A. As I say, there was two people shot in the
7 back of the flats, or two people that I think were shot
8 in the back of the flats. One, I do not know whether
9 he had a bottle or not, but one definitely --
10 Q. Mr McCrudden, I have already accepted
11 carefully and deliberately that you are telling the
12 truth, but I thought you should know that if only for
13 your own peace of mind, unless anybody were to report
14 that you had suggested that Mr Duddy had a bottle.
15 That is not a suggestion that we have made?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Could we go over to 152.3, please,
18 paragraph 14? Your recollection today is that one
19 young man ran out in a threatening way, encouraging
20 other people to join him, and that after he was shot
21 you noticed that somebody else had already been shot;
22 does that fairly summarise the position?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. In that case there is nothing between us.
25 Could I bring you to paragraph 17 on that
1 page, please, Mr McCrudden? Again little, if anything,
2 between us; you are one of the people who accept that
3 things were thrown down from the flats.
4 You say in the third line:
5 "When soldiers initially came in, bottles and
6 bricks were thrown from the windows of the
7 Rossville Flats, but I am sure that nothing worse than
8 that was thrown."
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. I want to ask you this: did you notice
11 whether the bottles were full or had anything in them
12 at all, or is that a silly question?
13 A. There was very, very little came down, there
14 might have been four or five bottles but they just
15 smashed, some smashed on it and another couple smashed
16 beside it.
17 Q. You specifically remember them being thrown
18 at the Saracen, I think you said?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Were there more of other missiles than
21 bottles thrown?
22 A. A couple of stones.
23 Q. Stones?
24 A. Yeah, or what appeared to be stones anyway,
25 could have been ashtrays or something, I do not know.
1 Q. I meant missiles in a neutral sense, other
2 objects?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. But not glass bottles?
5 A. No.
6 Q. When those were thrown, particularly the
7 bottles, can you now think back as to whether there was
8 any shooting that resulted from that or did you not
9 notice?
10 A. I did not notice.
11 Q. Over the page, if we may, to 152.4: I now
12 want to ask you some questions about paragraph 23. Is
13 it what you saw looking out the other direction towards
14 Glenfada Park?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Is it still your recollection that you saw
17 three young men on their own running across
18 Glenfada Park, or may it be the case that they were
19 part of a crowd?
20 A. They may have been a part of a crowd.
21 Q. Part of a crowd. If it helps, I think we
22 ought to look at your recollection at the time --
23 A. There only was three ran. There may be other
24 people there at the gable, but there was only three ran
25 across at that time.
1 Q. Could we go to 152.10 and look at your
2 paragraph 4? Taking the whole thing there:
3 "I returned to the front windows. I looked
4 up towards Glenfada Park. There was a crowd of about
5 15 to 20 running away. I heard about three shots and
6 saw three men falling in the crowd."
7 Unless somebody made a mistake in taking it
8 down, it does look, does it not, as if the account you
9 gave at the time was that you had seen a crowd actually
10 running away?
11 A. According to that, yeah, but as I say I have
12 very, very little recollection of making that
13 statement.
14 Q. I am not criticising you; the best you can do
15 is that your truthful recollection today is that you
16 can only see three men in your memory?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. Would you accept what was written for you at
19 the time may well be right and that it was a larger
20 crowd that was running across that square?
21 A. That is a possibility, but I would have to
22 say, no, that there was only three that tried to make
23 that journey from, from one part to the other.
24 Q. What I wanted to suggest to you,
25 Mr McCrudden, again without criticism, is that at the
1 time in 1972, again if the statement is accurate, you
2 appear to have recalled seeing these men after they
3 were shot specifically?
4 A. Oh, I seen them being shot.
5 Q. I am sorry --
6 A. Seen them being shot, yeah.
7 Q. I should not have said "think". If we look
8 at this page down at paragraph 7, taking that again in
9 totality --
10 LORD SAVILLE: I am sorry to interrupt you,
11 Mr Glasgow, but paragraph 4 does appear to be a
12 contemporary account of Mr McCrudden saying he saw
13 three men falling in the crowd.
14 MR GLASGOW: Yes, you are quite right. We
15 have it there, you are absolutely right. Mr McCrudden,
16 in fairness I should have put that to you; the Chairman
17 has just pointed out, do you see that:
18 "I saw three men falling in the crowd. These
19 men were not firing at the army"; that does, I think,
20 accord with your recollection today?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. We have also got paragraph 7 there. In
23 paragraph 7, where you talk about "they returned down
24 Rossville Street", I think that must be the soldiers?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. You then go on:
2 "I looked back at Glenfada where the three
3 men had been shot."
4 Are those the same three men you are talking
5 about?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. They are, but as Lord Saville has rightly
8 pointed out, your recollection is that you saw them
9 being shot?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. I will leave it there.
12 When you saw the three men, the three young
13 men lying on the ground, there was a time when they
14 were completely on their own and you saw no-one around
15 them at all?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. Is that right?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Do you think it is possible that as a young
20 lad of 12 your recollection of the three bodies, what
21 they would have looked like lying on their own, is what
22 you recall indelibly despite the fact that they had
23 been in a crowd at the time when they were shot?
24 A. Sorry, could you say that again?
25 Q. Do you think it is possible that your memory
1 of the picture of the three bodies lying deserted on
2 their own is the indelible, the impression that has
3 lasted with you?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. And in fact, you are kind to agree with that,
6 but I finish the question: do you think it possible
7 that although there was a time when the three bodies
8 were on their own, there had been a number of other
9 people around them when you had first seen them?
10 A. Could be.
11 Q. It could be?
12 A. Could be, yeah.
13 Q. In any event we agree, Mr McCrudden, there
14 was a time when the three bodies were on their own
15 without anybody around them, as in the photograph that
16 my learned friend, Mr Clarke, who asked you questions,
17 first showed you?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. That brought back your recollection?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Did you see anybody approach those bodies,
22 either to do them further injury or to help them, or to
23 pick anything up from the ground around them at all?
24 A. No, I do not recall.
25 Q. You do not recall?
1 A. I do not recall honestly, no.
2 Q. In that case I will not press it.
3 Could I now bring you back into the flat
4 where the terrifying incident of the shooting was going
5 on to you as a youngster? You looked at
6 photograph P544. I would be grateful if you would look
7 at it with the Tribunal again, please. That is the
8 window, but we have to remember on your evidence, which
9 I am not doubting, that the big horizontal window which
10 revolves horizontally would have been the other way up
11 at the time when the shooting took place.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. So the bullet hole we see at the very bottom
14 would actually have been at the very top?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And your memory is, I think you described it
17 with your hands and your face, but we want to try to
18 get it on the transcript as best we can, Mr McCrudden,
19 with your help, if we can, that the photographer, you
20 thought, was trying to get a better shot or to open the
21 window, that he did something with the catch which
22 releases the window?
23 A. I think you might even be able to see it
24 there, there is a wee --
25 Q. I was going to put it to you, halfway down
1 the window as part of the hinge, there is a little
2 catch on the left?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Is the position this: that you can open the
5 window in the ordinary way a few inches?
6 A. That is right.
7 Q. But if you want to clean it or to lean out,
8 knowing what you are doing?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. You have to release the catch?
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. Which is above child height?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. In order to spin the window right round?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Your recollection is the photographer, by
17 that window, reaching up and releasing the catch and,
18 as you say, whether he knew what he was doing or not or
19 whether it was the wind, quite suddenly the window
20 spins round?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. To almost upside down?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Am I right in thinking that he, as we look at
25 this photograph, would have been looking out from the
1 bottom left-hand corner of the horizontal window?
2 A. That is correct, yeah.
3 Q. I wonder, without me putting it to you, could
4 you describe in your own words what he was doing with
5 the camera; where was he holding that or poking it, or
6 pointing it?
7 A. Just he had his head down and taking the
8 photos out the window.
9 Q. Crouched down behind it?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Do you remember, at this stage, what sort of
12 a camera it was?
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. Can you remember this much: that it had a
15 telephoto lens, one of those long lenses?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. You do remember that?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. Was it black?
20 A. I honestly do not know.
21 Q. Very well, but you have the picture of him
22 crouched down behind with the camera lens pointing out
23 over the bottom left-hand corner of the horizontal
24 window as we look at it?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Your recollection -- I will not take you back
2 to it -- you can take it from me -- from your 1972
3 statement was quite a large of shots being fired; you
4 think about six. You say here in paragraph 27 of your
5 statement, AM152.5 -- we can go back to the photograph
6 if necessary -- but you recall four shots being fired?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Again without criticism, may I ask: how is it
9 in 1999, 1998 and now today, you have a recollection of
10 four shots; is that a figure somebody has put to you or
11 is it just a change of --
12 A. I honestly do not know, it is just something
13 I have in me mind, that stuck in me head that there was
14 four, but obviously there was six.
15 Q. You do not know how it is that in your
16 statement the figure "4" appears?
17 A. I cannot say to be honest. It is, it is
18 what, it is what I have said and what has been wrote
19 down is what I have says there was, but, um, as I say,
20 four is a figure sticks in me head. Why or what, I do
21 not know, but I always thought there was four shots
22 fired.
23 Q. It was not a criticism. The last matter,
24 Mr McCrudden, is the tape-recording that we listened
25 to. To refresh your memory, M35.61 is the transcript,
1 doing the best that the typist and the transcriber can
2 do with what I think you would agree, it is difficult
3 for people to hear exactly what was being said.
4 You were there at the time, and it is simply
5 the top of this page, you see the reference. What is
6 typed is a male voice saying:
7 "Put your fucking (gun) up ... right back".
8 It appears, I hope I can put this to you fairly, from
9 what we could hear on the tape that that conversation
10 is taking place outside. I do not think anybody could
11 suggest it was taking place in the room.
12 Were you aware of it at all?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I am going to suggest to you, though, that
15 the reference to putting a gun up or away is repeated
16 at least twice?
17 A. Oh, aye, I do recall that now. That is
18 referring to the fella that is down in the back.
19 Q. I missed that, Mr McCrudden, say again?
20 A. I think that is referring to the fella who is
21 down in the back with a handgun.
22 Q. That was what I was going to ask you about:
23 do you remember that conversation now, somebody
24 shouting "put that ... gun away", or with one or two
25 helpful adjectives?
1 A. There was a few people shouting at him to put
2 the gun away.
3 Q. Think carefully about this because it is a
4 question of timing and we are going back 29 years, and
5 I do not want to put an unfair question.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Do you remember some conversation about men
8 shouting "put that fucking gun away" or words to that
9 effect?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Do you remember that taking place at about
12 the time when the shots came through the window?
13 A. No, that, that had to be before it.
14 Q. If we look at the screen, what we have on the
15 screen, we can see that -- it appears that the tape
16 recorder was switched off between --
17 A. The reason why I am saying that had to be
18 before it because, what happened in the downstairs
19 bedroom, where I seen that gunman was from the upstairs
20 bedroom.
21 Q. Let us take it more slowly, if we can,
22 because it might be important.
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Where do you believe you were when you heard
25 the gunman being told to put his gun away?
1 A. Upstairs.
2 Q. Upstairs?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Where do you now remember that conversation
5 taking place, where were the people doing the shouting?
6 A. They were round the flats from different
7 windows, wherever, I do not know.
8 Q. Some of the shouting at the gunman was done
9 from the flats, was it?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. So it was obvious that this gunman had been
12 seen by lots of people around the flats?
13 A. Well, by a few anyway.
14 Q. That, you remember, as a conversation taking
15 place before, sometime before the shots were fired at
16 the window on the other side of the flat?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. That was quite a memorable event, a civilian
19 gunman, who I think you saw?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. You saw him being shouted at by a number of
22 people?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Did you not tell people at the time, in 1972
25 that that had happened?
1 A. I do not recall, to be honest.
2 Q. Would you have had, again, this is not a
3 criticism of you, as a 12 year old any reason to hold
4 that back? Were you frightened? Can you think of any
5 reason why you would not have told people at the time
6 that you had seen, as obviously you knew, a number of
7 other people had, a civilian gunman with a gun being
8 told to put it away?
9 A. There was no reason why I would not have told
10 anybody, no.
11 Q. You do not remember, though, when you gave
12 your 1972 statement, even mentioning it or do you think
13 it may not have been recorded?
14 A. I do not remember mentioning it.
15 Q. You do not remember at all?
16 A. Honestly not, no.
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN
19 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Mr McCrudden, I am
20 Allan Green and I have a few questions on behalf of
21 some soldiers. Can I just ask you about what you saw
22 in Glenfada Park North? Can I get plain, first, and
23 perhaps everyone knows except me what the position is,
24 but establish where you were looking from.
25 You lived in block 1; is that right?
1 A. That is right, yeah.
2 Q. We have that, I think, at P3.204, if we can
3 have that; it is an aerial photograph.
4 Mr McCrudden, you can have, as we say,
5 control of the screen. It would help me and perhaps
6 help others too if you could indicate for us roughly
7 where the window was from which you were observing what
8 was going on in Glenfada Park North, could you do that
9 for us?
10 A. Yeah. (Indicating)
11 Q. You are on the second floor, so not very high
12 up?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Of course, given the angle and given the way
15 in which the southern end of Glenfada Park North
16 slopes, we can see it sloping, the other parts are
17 regular rectangle, but that slopes as we can see, you
18 would not be able to see, looking out of your window,
19 into Glenfada Park to the right, to the north?
20 A. That is correct, you cannot see out at all.
21 Q. So whoever was responsible for firing, you
22 never saw them?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. It also follows, I think, if there were other
25 civilians running across, you would not necessarily
1 have seen them either because of the angle at which you
2 were looking?
3 A. You can see directly across there, you can
4 see, see from -- you can see that.
5 Q. Yes, the red arrow helps us there, but there
6 could have been people on the square as we look at it
7 to the left of the red arrow that you would not be
8 seeing?
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. Whether they were soldiers or civilians?
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. And the sort of view that you have, I think,
13 we can see it at 152.9, which is an attachment to your
14 statement, if we could have a look at that for a
15 moment. That seems to be taken, does it not, that
16 photograph, as far as we can tell -- I am no expert --
17 but it looks as though it is taken from a little way up
18 in the flats?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. So perhaps roughly from where your flat was?
21 A. Could very well be, yeah.
22 Q. That is the sort of view that you had?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Can I just have a look, and Mr Glasgow has
25 dealt with it to an extent already, at 152.10, which is
1 the statement that you made at the time.
2 Can I ask you this, Mr McCrudden: what is the
3 date of your birth?
4 A. 2/11/59.
5 Q. 2/11?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. So you were just 12 at the time?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. You had been 12 a month or two before?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. But your age is apparently given by
12 Mr Dermot Fee, who I think we are told became a
13 distinguished lawyer or was a distinguished lawyer,
14 your age is given as 14.
15 Would you have any reason, some young people
16 do, to bump up their age?
17 A. I do not know honestly.
18 Q. When you get to my age you try and reduce it
19 a bit, but it is a possibility, is it?
20 A. It is indeed, yeah.
21 Q. As far as this account is concerned, it is
22 right that it differs from the account in your much
23 more recent Eversheds statement because there is
24 nothing there, as we can see, about seeing or noticing
25 the three who were shot at an earlier stage when they
1 appeared to be deciding where to go.
2 Do you remember what you told us this
3 afternoon about pointing towards your flats and them
4 apparently indicating a decision to go the other way
5 towards Abbey Park; there is none of that there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Indeed, no description of how many of the
8 three fell or the order in which they fell?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Simply a statement, and Mr Glasgow has asked
11 you about that, of them falling in the crowd. So the
12 impression you give there is of a crowd running across
13 and three of them going down?
14 A. It appears to be, yeah.
15 Q. The statement that you have been questioned
16 about this afternoon, the much more recent statement,
17 page 4 of it, AM152.4, gives of course much, much more
18 detail. Were you -- I am not suggesting this was wrong
19 or improper in any way at all -- pressed quite hard
20 about the detail, to remember, dredge your memory for
21 the detail of what happened in Glenfada Park when your
22 statement was being taken?
23 A. I was not, no.
24 Q. Although you do not appear to have said this
25 when you made your original statement, you say that
1 these matters were clear in your mind?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. And it was not as a result of being pressed
4 to remember, that you were able to remember them?
5 A. That is right, I was not pressed at all.
6 Q. I know you say you cannot remember the
7 circumstances of the first statement, but did you have
8 a clear recollection then, on the day and soon after,
9 of how those three actually came to fall down and be
10 shot?
11 A. There was certain parts of it, as I say,
12 which are a blur, but that is one of the things that
13 stick out in your mind, you just do not forget.
14 Q. Even though, as you rightly say at the start
15 of paragraph 23, it all took place very quickly?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. To what extent are you confident that you
18 have the three people -- the description of how the
19 three individuals fell and where they fell --
20 correctly?
21 A. Very much so.
22 Q. You see, let me give you an example: the
23 photograph that you see of the bodies?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Shows one much nearer to Abbey Park than the
1 other two?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And I think we shall hear -- I do not think
4 there is any dispute about it -- that that may be a man
5 called Jim Wray?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. The other two are almost parallel to each
8 other some distance back?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. You say it was one of those, the two further
11 back, that appeared to try and go through a gate, and
12 he was shot, you say, he was shot twice?
13 A. Appeared to be.
14 Q. And you are quite sure of that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The description you gave this afternoon,
17 I have tried to copy it down and I do not say it is
18 word for word, you say that that particular man made
19 two different moves: one where he went down first as
20 such and then he seemed to get a thump again when he
21 took another jerk?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Those were your words, as far as I could
24 record them?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. That is your description, is it?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Really what you are describing there is one
4 of the two men who ended up further back?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Being shot and going down in the way that you
7 describe?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Apparently shot twice?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. If you have a look at the statement at 152.4,
12 what you say is in the middle of paragraph 23:
13 "He appeared to be shot twice; once while he
14 was on his feet, trying to open the gate and then
15 again. On the second shot he buckled and fell ...", so
16 giving the impression there that when he was first shot
17 he was on his feet and it was the second shot that
18 brought him down.
19 You see what you told us this afternoon, and
20 obviously it is difficult so many years later, gives
21 the impression that he was already down when the second
22 shot hit him; can you say which is right or are you not
23 sure one way or the other?
24 A. The first time he was shot was whenever he
25 had his hand over the top of the wooden fence trying to
1 get the wee latch on the gate or whatever he was doing.
2 Q. So he was shot then?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And does he go down then or does he go down
5 with the second shot?
6 A. Not automatically, but he sorta flumps but
7 does not actually go down. It was only in the second
8 time when he was shot.
9 Q. You are confident it was that man, one of the
10 two further back?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. As far as anything later is concerned, in
13 contrast to what I have just been putting to you where
14 your more recent statement is very much more detailed
15 than the statement you gave a day or two later, I come
16 to something which is totally the other way round
17 because -- and you have been asked about this already,
18 and I take it very, very shortly -- at 152.10, numbered
19 paragraph 7, if you would just have a look at that.
20 You say that you looked back at Glenfada
21 again and you describe all sorts of things that you saw
22 on that occasion, the girl from the Knights of Malta
23 standing and waving a hanky; ten men thereabouts taking
24 bodies away; the girl running and the crowd
25 disappearing behind Glenfada; four or five different
1 things; and you do not remember a single one of those
2 things today?
3 A. I do not, no.
4 Q. None of them?
5 A. None of them.
6 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
7 A. Thank you.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, do you have any
9 further questions?
10 MR CLARKE: Just one: could we have
11 photograph 544 back on the screen? You said in answer
12 to Mr Glasgow that -- or you accepted that you had a
13 picture of Fulvio Grimaldi crouched down behind with a
14 camera lens pointing out over the bottom left-hand
15 corner of the horizontal window as we look at it, that
16 is what you are recorded as accepting?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. I want to be clear about that: the bottom
19 left-hand corner of the horizontal window as we look at
20 it, is there?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. What did you mean, or what did you understand
23 my learned friend to mean?
24 A. That window does not open, it is the -- here
25 (indicating).
1 LORD SAVILLE: It is the bottom left-hand
2 corner of the larger window?
3 A. Yeah.
4 MR CLARKE: Thank you, that is all that
5 I wanted to ask.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McCrudden, thank you very
7 much indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry.
8 Thank you.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 LORD SAVILLE: Our next witness in fact is
11 Mr Colhoun. I think we will take a five-minute break
12 at this stage, Mr Clarke, if that is convenient, to
13 give our LiveNote writers a short break.
14 (2.50 pm)
15 (A short adjournment)
16 (3.00 pm)
17 MR GERARD COLHOUN, affirmed
18 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Colhoun, if you look to
20 your right, I am the Chairman. The questions will be
21 asked by the barristers who are in front of me. Could
22 you keep your face more or less where it is now in
23 relation to that microphone so that everyone can hear
24 what you have to say.
25 MR ROXBURGH: Mr Colhoun, do you have with
1 you a copy of your statement to this Inquiry signed on
2 13th March 2000?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Can we have that on the screen, please, that
5 is AC70.2? Are the contents of that statement true to
6 the best of your knowledge and belief?
7 A. The only change is one of the photographs,
8 but the written context is --
9 Q. Which photograph is that?
10 A. AC70.12.
11 Q. What is the change that you would like to
12 make in relation to that photograph?
13 A. At the time I was confirming to the
14 solicitors that this was the body of Paddy Doherty, the
15 gentleman lying at the bottom of Fahan Street flats;
16 this is not him.
17 Q. If we go back to the beginning of your
18 statement at AC70.2, you describe there how you went on
19 the march along William Street towards the barrier?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then you turned down Chamberlain Street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you observed the rioting at the barrier?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when you heard that the army were coming
1 in, you ran down Chamberlain Street to the
2 Rossville Flats' car park?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Can we look at paragraph 5, please? You
5 describe there how, when you came into the
6 Rossville Flats' car park, you could see people running
7 around and some people trying to get through the two
8 gaps and you ran on to a point that you have marked on
9 the map. You say that you stopped, turned round and
10 looked north into the waste ground and you could see
11 soldiers running around and taking up positions with
12 their rifles aimed.
13 Then you say this:
14 "I saw soldiers lying down on the waste
15 ground in the area which is circled on the attached map
16 just to the north of the Rossville Flats' car park.
17 They were flat down on the ground with their guns up in
18 the firing position. I cannot remember much else about
19 them. I cannot recall what they were wearing on their
20 heads. I just know they were wearing uniforms."
21 Can we look at the map please at AC70.15 and
22 enlarge the area with that circle in it? That is the
23 circle there at the top of the screen in the centre, is
24 it, that indicates where these soldiers were?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now you say they had their rifles up in the
2 firing position, can you tell me which way their rifles
3 were pointing?
4 A. Their rifles were pointed in to in the square
5 at the Rossville Flats.
6 Q. Did you see at what, if anything, in
7 particular they were aiming?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You did not see those particular soldiers
10 open fire, is that right?
11 A. I did not, no.
12 Q. And you do not know why they were lying on
13 the ground?
14 A. I do not.
15 Q. But you are sure, are you, in your own mind
16 that they were on the ground, actually lying on the
17 ground as opposed to kneeling or standing?
18 A. Well, it did happen very fast, but when I did
19 turn around I did see soldiers lying down.
20 Q. Was it just a fleeting glimpse or did you see
21 them for longer?
22 A. It was fleeting glimpse.
23 Q. Can we go on, please, to AC730.3 and
24 paragraph 7? You describe there seeing a young fellow
25 shot in the car park, or a young fellow who fell and
1 you assumed that he had been shot. Then you say that
2 Father Daly and other people came out to him and you
3 say this, about two-thirds of the way down the
4 paragraph:
5 "There were people running all over the
6 Rossville Flats' car park, shouting with shots being
7 fired and stones being thrown."
8 Is it right to take it from that that in your
9 recollection the car park was full of people when this
10 young boy was shot?
11 A. Yes, there were people in the flats, in the
12 square.
13 Q. Can you give any very rough estimate of the
14 number of people that were in the car park?
15 A. Sorry, I cannot.
16 Q. Again, is it right to take it from this that
17 the shot that hit that young boy was not just an
18 isolated shot?
19 A. No, there was more than one shot, that is
20 correct.
21 Q. Again, say if you cannot remember, but can
22 you give any sort of impression of the numbers of shots
23 that were fired at around about the time when you saw
24 him fall?
25 A. Numbers of shots, no, I could not give a
1 precise number. There was a number of shots fired at
2 that time.
3 Q. Could you tell whether the shots that you
4 heard were live rounds or rubber bullets, or a mixture
5 of the two?
6 A. At the time I was a little bit confused and
7 when word -- somebody shouted there is a lad shot, we
8 did not know if it was a rubber bullet or a live
9 round. It was only seconds afterwards somebody said he
10 was shot. We had accepted it was live rounds were
11 being fired, and then further after that those shots
12 were being fired. I did recognise them to be live
13 rounds.
14 Q. Yes, you recognised some of them to be live
15 rounds but could there have been rubber bullets mixed
16 in with them as well?
17 A. To be honest the sounds of the shots were all
18 very much the same.
19 Q. Could we look, please, at AC70.13: this is
20 the statement that you made at the time, on
21 1st February 1972. Can we look at the middle
22 paragraph, please? You say there:
23 "Some of the crowd ahead of me turn back to
24 face the soldiers. The soldiers pulled back a bit and
25 took up firing positions. At about the centre of the
1 back of Rossville Flats a man was standing with the
2 crowd. The troops shot him dead. Father Daly and two
3 other men ran out to him."
4 I think it is clear that is talking about the
5 same person?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. When you say that he was standing with the
8 crowd, do you literally mean that, that he was standing
9 as opposed to walking or running or doing anything
10 else?
11 A. He was part of the crowd, not standing, but
12 running. He was part of the actual crowd.
13 Q. Could we have a look, please, at P627?
14 Is the scene in that photograph one that you
15 recognise at all?
16 A. Yes, that is a photograph taken at the back
17 at the Rossville Street car park behind the flats.
18 Q. Does the appearance of the group on the right
19 of the photograph, is that familiar to you at all?
20 A. Um, yes.
21 Q. Is that the boy that you saw?
22 A. It is a young lad who was shot in the back of
23 the flats at that time, correct.
24 Q. So it would be right, would it, to assume
25 that the car park had emptied out substantially by the
1 time this photograph was taken from when you saw it?
2 A. Oh, yes, people like myself in the back of
3 the flats did scatter into a safety area.
4 Q. Do you recognise the man in the centre of the
5 photograph?
6 A. Which --
7 Q. Looking over to the left, the man --
8 A. Crouched down.
9 Q. Let me draw an arrow (marked with a blue
10 arrow).
11 A. No, I do not recognise him.
12 Q. Leaving aside whether you recognise him so
13 that you could give his name, did you see him on the
14 day?
15 A. I cannot say that I seen him on the day or
16 recognised him on the day, no.
17 Q. If we go back to AC70.3, please, paragraph
18 10: you describe in that paragraph how a man ran out
19 from the northeast corner of the car park and was shot
20 in the leg?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I think you now know, and we know, that this
23 was Michael Bridge?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can we look, please, at P741: is that scene
1 familiar to you at all?
2 A. Yes, that is -- I do remember that, yeah.
3 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that photograph?
4 A. I remember -- I recognise that to be
5 Michael Bridge.
6 Q. Which man is it that you are identifying as
7 Michael Bridge?
8 A. The one in the open.
9 Q. That photograph, and Mr Bridge has confirmed
10 to us that he is that man, is apparently taken shortly
11 before he was shot and you can see that he has his back
12 in the photograph to block 1 of the flats and he
13 appears to be looking to his right, which would be
14 roughly speaking towards where the body of the young
15 boy lay; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would it accord with your recollection of
18 what happened that Mr Bridge ran out first of all to
19 the body of the young boy and then moved from there
20 towards the Saracen that we can see in the photograph?
21 A. Um, no, my recollection is of Mr Bridge, was
22 in a group with myself and he ran out to face the, the
23 soldiers. I did not see him facing the incident where
24 the young lad was shot.
25 Q. So as you recall, he would have ran straight
1 out, in which case one would expect him really to have
2 his back to the position from which this photograph was
3 taken?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You do not know how it came about that he was
6 in the position shown in this photograph?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Can we go, please to AC70.4, paragraph 12?
9 You describe there seeing a small car in grid
10 reference K16. If we need to we can look at that on
11 the map, but K16 is close to the passage between blocks
12 1 and 2 of the Rossville Flats, is it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you say that the car was shot to pieces
15 by the army. Can you say more precisely what you mean
16 by that?
17 A. Well, I noticed it because the car was
18 sitting, as you point out, towards the alleyway and
19 shots were fired into that car from where I was against
20 the gable wall of Chamberlain Street.
21 Q. Can you, again, give any idea of the number
22 of shots that were fired towards the car?
23 A. I cannot. It was a number, it was not a
24 single shot. It was a number of shots.
25 Q. Could it have been two or three?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Four or five?
3 A. Four, certainly, yeah.
4 Q. Did you actually see the strike of these
5 shots on the car?
6 A. I heard the sound of breaking glass.
7 Q. So when you say that the car was shot to
8 pieces, are you referring, primarily at least, to
9 damage to the windscreen or the windows?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you actually see the windscreen smashed
12 in or not?
13 A. How do you mean; did I actually see it?
14 Q. Well, did you actually observe the damage to
15 the car, or did you simply hear shots and hear breaking
16 glass?
17 A. I heard shots and I heard the breaking glass.
18 Q. Can we have a look at the photograph, please,
19 at EP26.13? I think you have been shown this
20 photograph before and you say that you cannot confirm
21 that the car in that picture is the one that you
22 thought was shot at by the army; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But it is roughly at least in the position
25 where you remember the car that you are talking about?
1 A. Yeah, that is correct.
2 Q. It could have been this car, you are just not
3 in a position to say one way or the other, is that
4 right?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. Indeed, if that was the only car that was
7 parked in that corner, then that must be the car you
8 are talking about?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that right?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Although the photograph is not very clear, it
13 seems to be the position that there is no sign in the
14 photograph that the car has been damaged at the time
15 when the photograph was taken?
16 A. That is true, yeah.
17 Q. So if what you say is right, then it must
18 have happened after this photograph was taken?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can we go back, please, to AC70.4,
21 paragraph 15? You refer in that paragraph to seeing
22 the body of a man lying at the bottom of the
23 Fahan Street steps and you say that he was lying face
24 up. You would say that he was an elderly gentleman,
25 but then you were only aged 19 at the time so perhaps
1 he was not that old?
2 A. That is true, yeah.
3 Q. You recall that someone had taken his shoes
4 off; do you still have that recollection?
5 A. Yes, most certainly. Somebody did come along
6 and remove his shoes.
7 Q. Could you look, please, at photograph P721?
8 Can we lighten that up a bit, please? At the back of
9 the picture those are the steps that you are referring
10 to, I think?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recognise that scene at all in terms
13 of the people who are in it as opposed to the physical
14 location?
15 A. I do not recognise the people in that
16 picture.
17 Q. Do you recognise the body that is lying on
18 the ground at the centre of the picture?
19 A. Yes, I recognise that to be the body which
20 was at the bottom of the Fahan Street steps.
21 Q. Lastly, can we go, please, to AC70.5,
22 paragraph 20? You say there that you did not see any
23 civilians on the march with any weapons and remember
24 there being talk when you were walking along that the
25 Provisional IRA were not going to be on the streets
1 that day, but would be in the background in case
2 something happened.
3 Then you say:
4 "There was some talk that the Official IRA
5 might be present."
6 When you say "in the background in case
7 something happened", can you just explain what you mean
8 by that. It may be obvious, but --
9 A. Well, it was just general talk. People
10 walking and they were talking and what it actually is
11 saying, that the Provisional IRA -- the Provisional
12 IRA, the word on the ground was that they would not be
13 taking part, their members would not be there and they
14 would only be away totally in the background in case
15 something drastic or something else happened, but they
16 were -- that was the general talk at the time.
17 Q. When you say "there was some talk that the
18 Official IRA might be present", was that just general
19 talk as well or something more specific?
20 A. It was more just the same lines as before,
21 general talk.
22 Q. Did you understand, when you said that the
23 talk was that they might be present, that to mean that
24 they might not just be present, but be present and
25 armed, or was it not as specific as that?
1 A. To me it was just, it was present, I could
2 not be specific.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
5 MR GLASGOW: A very few matters, Mr Colhoun.
6 My name is Glasgow and I represent a number of the
7 soldiers.
8 Could we look first at the second page of
9 your statement, which we have as AC70.3, and just one
10 matter which you were not asked about which I would
11 like your clarification of. Right at the top of the
12 page, towards the end of paragraph 6, you say:
13 "At this time [you are describing the scene
14 in the waste ground in the car park] plenty of shots
15 being fired and stones were being thrown towards the
16 soldiers on the waste ground."
17 Mr Colhoun, the Tribunal has been given some
18 accounts by those who admit to that activity, varying
19 between about twelve men and about twenty young men
20 throwing stones; what would be your estimate of the
21 number of people involved in the stone-throwing at that
22 stage?
23 A. At that stage, I would more or less agree
24 with those numbers.
25 Q. Between 12 and 20?
1 A. (Witness nodding) Yes.
2 Q. That did not go on for very long, on your
3 recollection.
4 A. No, sir, it did not.
5 Q. At the bottom of that page we have your
6 paragraph 11 and you helped my learned friend with
7 this.
8 You say in paragraph 11:
9 "After the lad had been shot, no-one else had
10 the bottle to go out."
11 Are you quite clear in your recollection that
12 only one young man went out?
13 A. Are you relating to Michael Bridge?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes, he was the one that left our group and
16 went out.
17 Q. I do not know whether you know about this,
18 Mr Colhoun, but the Tribunal has also heard from
19 Mr Bradley and there is some evidence concerning him,
20 obviously we know he was shot and that he went out as
21 well.
22 Do you think it is possible that you just did
23 not see that?
24 A. I have no recollection of Mr Bradley being,
25 being in my group and going out and being shot.
1 Q. Were you behind the wall all this time
2 between the time when, for example, Mr Bridge was shot
3 and when Mr Duddy's body was carried away; were you
4 there all that time?
5 A. I was in that vicinity all the time, yes.
6 Q. You say "in that vicinity", sorry?
7 A. Yes, the gable wall of that house.
8 Q. Behind that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That is the time when you are referring to;
11 you did not see anything being thrown from the flats at
12 all?
13 A. Yes, I did not.
14 Q. Is that right?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. A number of people have spoken about the
17 level of noise; do you think it is possible that the
18 level of noise and of aggressive activity, putting it
19 neutrally, perhaps on both sides, but the level of
20 noise and aggressive activity was such that you just
21 did not notice things being thrown down, or are you
22 positively saying to the Tribunal that nothing was
23 thrown down?
24 A. From my knowledge, I have recollection of
25 looking up into the flats and seeing nothing being
1 thrown at -- towards the Security Forces.
2 Q. Do you think it is possible that the level of
3 noise and of general aggressive activity simply masked
4 that from you; the level was such that you just did not
5 hear it?
6 A. To this day, sir, I solely believe and think
7 that the only sounds I hear was the sound of rifle
8 fire. I did not hear anything coming down, nothing
9 coming down from the flats.
10 Q. You were not aware of any other gunmen other
11 than the soldiers that you have told us about?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Were you aware of shouting at a gunman that
14 we have heard about, both from the ground level and
15 from the flats?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You heard none of that at all?
18 A. No.
19 Q. But you were still by that wall when
20 Mr Duddy's body was carried out by Father Daly and
21 others?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Page AC70.4, if you would be kind enough, the
24 bottom of that paragraph 18. You deal there with,
25 after the shooting had died down, that someone told you
1 that there was another body in the stairwell of
2 block 1.
3 Is it your understanding that there were two
4 bodies in the stairwell of block 1?
5 A. No, that was just talk that somebody said to
6 me there was another body on the stairwell and that is
7 --
8 Q. I am sorry, another body which happened to be
9 on the stairwell or another body in the stairwell,
10 meaning more than one in the stairwell?
11 A. No, to me it was just another body on the
12 stairwell, just the one.
13 Q. The last matter, Mr Colhoun, is the car that
14 you helped my friend about; you remember the photograph
15 of the little Mini?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You have told the Tribunal that you did not
18 see the damage to that car or see it being shot at, but
19 heard the shots and heard the broken glass?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. If that is right -- I am not being rude or
22 critical -- but if all you did was to hear the shots
23 and the breaking glass, can you be accurate as to where
24 the car was?
25 A. I knew where the car was because I could see
1 it from the gable wall.
2 Q. But there were other cars in the car park as
3 well?
4 A. Well, I can only recall seeing that one
5 particular car in that area near the alleyway between
6 the two block of flats.
7 Q. In that area?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Is it because the shooting that you heard all
10 appeared to be in that direction that you think that
11 the car must have been there as well?
12 A. The car was there.
13 Q. I entirely accept there was a car there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you not aware of shooting to the other
16 corner as you were looking across the car park to your
17 left, to the corner between blocks 2 and 3?
18 A. To me, my knowledge was the shooting that
19 I can recollect was coming from that area between the
20 gable wall on Chamberlain Street and the block of flats
21 facing Rossville Street.
22 Q. And you were not aware -- again, it is not a
23 criticism, it is a question -- of any shooting directed
24 towards the gap between blocks 2 and 3, in the other
25 corner?
1 A. In the other corner?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Not at all?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I will not press it. Thank you, sir.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Questioned by MR ELIAS
9 MR ELIAS: Would you look, please, at your
10 statement AC70.5 and if we could highlight paragraphs
11 20 and 21? You say at paragraph 20:
12 "I remember there being talk when we were
13 walking along that the Provisional IRA were not going
14 to be on the streets"; not going to be on the street
15 but would be in the background in case something
16 happened.
17 Where did you understand that being in the
18 background meant that they would be?
19 A. Um, well deep in the heart of the Bogside
20 area.
21 Q. Deep in the heart of the Bogside?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But nowhere in particular?
24 A. No.
25 Q. "There was some talk that the Official IRA
1 might be present."
2 That was being said on the march, too, was
3 it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You say a little later in the paragraph:
6 "The Provisionals were better equipped"; in
7 what way were the Provisionals better equipped, as you
8 understood it?
9 A. Just they had better guns and rifles compared
10 to the Official IRA.
11 Q. How did you know that?
12 A. Well, it was just from general talk at the
13 time.
14 Q. You knew, did you, who was a member of the
15 Provisionals or a member of the Officials?
16 A. No, sir, I have never had any involvement
17 with any republican organisation.
18 Q. The last sentence of the paragraph is perhaps
19 puzzling:
20 "I definitely did not see anyone with a
21 handgun that day, nor did I see any Stickies [that is
22 Official IRA, is it not] on the march"; what did that
23 mean?
24 A. It just means, sir, that -- Derry people do
25 talk to each other and they do point out things.
1 Q. So you were aware, were you, of people who
2 you believed were members of the Official IRA?
3 A. At the march?
4 Q. No, you knew the identity of them?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. I move on to paragraph 21. You say that a
7 few weeks after Bloody Sunday you were caught in a gun
8 battle around the Rossville Flats between the army and
9 the IRA?
10 A. I believe so, yes.
11 Q. Where were you when you say you were caught
12 in it?
13 A. I was on my way home -- sorry, I was on my
14 way from a football match on a Sunday afternoon to
15 Westland Street.
16 Q. Where were you?
17 A. I was going up Chamberlain Street through the
18 Rossville Street Flats.
19 Q. Was there firing then from the
20 Rossville Street Flats to the army?
21 A. I, I do not know where the firing came from.
22 Q. You have no idea?
23 A. No, it was just, it just brought back
24 memories of being in that same vicinity and it is --
25 that is why I mentioned that.
1 Q. You were not aware, were you, of firing from
2 the Rossville Flats on the car park side?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. On that occasion?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR ROXBURGH: I have no further questions.
8 Can I list the witnesses for tomorrow?
9 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, but before you do,
10 I simply want to thank Mr Colhoun very much indeed for
11 coming to assist the Inquiry. Thank you.
12 (The witness withdrew)
13 LORD SAVILLE: I do have a list.
14 MR ROXBURGH: Daniel McGuinness,
15 Alan Harkins, Eamon Baker, Patrick Deeney and
16 John McGowan, the second and the fourth of those have
17 been moved forward from Friday and the other three were
18 as scheduled.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much,
20 Mr Roxburgh. We will come back to this at 9.30
21 tomorrow morning.
22 (3.30 pm)
23 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on
24 Thursday, 22nd March 2001)
25 MR ALEXANDER McLAUGHLIN, sworn
1 Questioned by MR CLARKE.............................. 1
2 Questioned by MR FINNEGAN............................ 7
3 MR TONY DELPINTO, sworn
4 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH........................... 10
5 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 20
6 MS ANTOINETTE COYLE, sworn
7 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 24
8 Questioned by MS DOHERTY............................ 51
9 Questioned by MR TOPOLSKI........................... 52
10 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................. 57
11 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 84
12 MR JOHN MCCRUDDEN, sworn
13 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 90
14 Questioned by MS SMYTH............................. 124
15 Questioned by MR MANSFIELD......................... 131
16 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 133
17 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN...................... 161
18 MR GERARD COLHOUN, affirmed
19 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH.......................... 171
20 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 185
21 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 191