1 Wednesday, 17th January 2001
2 (9.38 am)
3 MR CLARKE: Sir, there is a slight change of
4 plan in relation to the witnesses to be called. The
5 first witness this morning is Mr Eddie Doherty. The
6 second witness is John McGee. There is a question mark
7 over the availability of the third, what would
8 otherwise be the third witness, Mr McGill.
9 Mr McCallion who was the fourth witness is
10 unfortunately ill, he will not be here this morning.
11 We propose to bring in to take up the space
12 James Anthony Doherty, who is presently scheduled for
13 tomorrow, AD73, and Monica McDaid, who is presently
14 scheduled for tomorrow, who is AM170. We may need to
15 adjourn for a while for those statements to be
16 considered.
17 So the order will be: Doherty, McGee.
18 Question mark McGill, James Anthony Doherty and Monica
19 McDaid.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you.
21 EDDIE DOHERTY (sworn)
22 Questioned by MR CLARKE
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Doherty, if you look to
24 your right you will see that it is me talking to you.
25 I am the Chairman of the Tribunal. The questions will
1 be asked by the Counsel sitting in front of me. What
2 I would ask you to do, if you would, is try and keep
3 your mouth fairly close to that microphone so that
4 everybody can hear what you have to say?
5 A. Right.
6 MR CLARKE: Could we have on the screen
7 AD62.1. Mr Doherty, do you have with you your
8 statement to this Tribunal signed by you on 14th
9 October 1999?
10 A. Yes, I have.
11 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
12 the best of your knowledge and belief?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I would like to deal with just a few points
15 that arise on it. You describe in paragraph 3 how the
16 march came to a stop at what you describe as point A on
17 your attached map, which is at the junction at
18 Rossville Street and William Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you could hear people shouting and could
21 see a water cannon which must have been somewhere near
22 the junction of William Street and Chamberlain Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I wonder if I could ask you this: did the
25 water cannon actually come through the barrier at the
1 end of William Street?
2 A. I do not remember, I was not at the front of
3 the march, you know, I was a way back, you know.
4 Q. Then you next remember, as I understand it,
5 standing in the open ground behind Kells Walk?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Looking out to the north of William Street?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can we have a look on the screen at your map
10 at AD62.5? I think there came a time when you were
11 standing at the point that is marked "B"?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Which is, I think, just above the garages
14 behind Kells Walk?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If we go back to your statement at AD26 2.1,
19 in paragraph 5, you say that you remember:
20 "... Damien Donaghy standing a little apart
21 from the group I was with, about twenty yards to our
22 north."
23 Can you give us some idea of how many people
24 were around at this stage?
25 A. Well, I reckon there might have been a dozen,
1 maybe two dozen, you know.
2 Q. That is a dozen or two in that waste ground
3 south of William Street?
4 A. On the waste ground and behind it, you know,
5 and where I was standing as well, you know.
6 Q. What about in William Street itself, were you
7 able to see --
8 A. No, you could not see into William Street,
9 you know, because of the buildings on either side.
10 Q. You say there that he had his back to you and
11 he was on his own. Were there other people near to
12 him?
13 A. I would say in between me and him there was
14 probably people, you know.
15 Q. You say he may have been shouting abuse?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were there people who were shouting abuse at
18 that time?
19 A. Probably, you know, as far as I can remember,
20 there was, you know.
21 Q. That is presumably abuse at the soldiers, is
22 it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were there people throwing stones at the
25 soldiers?
1 A. I do not recall if there was any, no.
2 Q. You say that you remember a shot ringing out?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And he fell?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Had you seen him before he fell?
7 A. Just standing in front of me, just, you know
8 -- how do you mean before, just at that time?
9 Q. I was trying to distinguish whether you saw
10 him fall, whether you had seen him after he had fallen
11 or whether you saw him before he fell?
12 A. No, I seen him shouting or whatever he was
13 doing, you know. I was aware that he was out in front
14 of me, you know, and when he was shot then --
15 Q. Did you see him actually fall?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we go over the page at AD62.2, you say
18 that when he was shot he had his back to you, is that
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You do not remember whether he was holding
22 anything or not?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But you say it was normal for people to throw
25 things at that time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does that mean it is quite likely that the
3 people who were in the waste ground were all, or many
4 of them throwing stones towards the soldiers?
5 A. What was that, would they be throwing
6 stones?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. I do not know, I do not recall, do you know.
9 Q. Whilst you were there in the waste ground,
10 was there a lot of noise going on?
11 A. I do not recall at that time, you know,
12 whether there was noise or not, do you know.
13 Q. Did you hear any bangs or explosions?
14 A. No.
15 (9.45 am)
16 Q. If we could go back to paragraph 5, AD62.1,
17 you say that you remember a shot ringing out. Did you
18 hear just the one or did you hear more than one?
19 A. No, well, that was just the one at that time,
20 you know.
21 Q. Had you heard any before?
22 A. On that day? No.
23 Q. Yes, on that day.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you hear any rubber bullets at this time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. If we go to your map at AD62.5, I think you
3 have marked the point where Damien Donaghy was standing
4 as point C. Point C in the place that you have marked
5 it --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- appears to be in the middle of the waste
8 ground, about halfway down between William Street and
9 the roadway behind Kells Walk. Is that where you meant
10 to put it?
11 A. Yes, probably about there, yes.
12 Q. A number of witnesses, though not all, have
13 indicated that Damien Donaghy was at the corner on the
14 west, that is the left-hand side of the waste ground?
15 A. Out towards William Street more?
16 Q. Yes, at the corner, yes, that is what they
17 have indicated?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is your recollection different?
20 A. I would say he was slightly more where he
21 was. He could have been drifting back and forth, do
22 you know what I mean.
23 Q. I follow. Could you tell where the shot came
24 from?
25 A. Well, it seemed to come from the Post Office,
1 from the roof of the Post Office, you know.
2 Q. Could we then go to AD62.2, paragraphs 8 and
3 9. You say there "once I got back to point B", that is
4 having gone to go and help Damien Donaghy?
5 A. I did not actually go and help, I just went
6 and had a look, you know. Other people helped him,
7 I did not help him, you know, I went and looked and
8 seen he was shot in the leg, you know.
9 Q. You say:
10 "It was almost immediately that another man
11 walked out on to the waste ground ..."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. "... towards where Damien Donaghy had been
14 shot."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know Mr Johnston at the time?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. When you say that he walked out on to the
19 waste ground, where did you see him walk out from?
20 A. You know, he just -- he appeared in the waste
21 ground, to say that he walked, I am not sure he walked
22 out, he appeared there on the waste ground, you know.
23 Q. Can you recall where he was going towards
24 when he appeared?
25 A. Well, he was looking towards the GPO, you
1 know, and you know, my recollection is that he was
2 remonstrating with them, you know, that they shot this
3 young lad, you know.
4 Q. When you say that he was remonstrating, what
5 did he appear to be doing?
6 A. You know, he was sort of pointing. I recall
7 he possibly was pointing, you know. He seemed a bit
8 angry that this young lad was shot, you know.
9 Q. As I understand your evidence, facing towards
10 the GPO?
11 A. He was facing towards the GPO, yes.
12 Q. How clear are you about that? There has been
13 quite a lot of evidence that Mr Johnston was seen
14 walking in a southerly direction?
15 A. Yes, down William Street.
16 Q. Down William Street, but down the waste
17 ground towards Columbcille Court?
18 A. No, I do not recall that. I just recall
19 looking and seeing, you know, that he was in the waste
20 ground, you know. What direction, you know, at the
21 point that I seen him he was looking in the direction
22 of the GPO.
23 Q. You say in the middle of paragraph 8 that you
24 recall another shot ringing out?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And Mr Johnston falling to the ground, where
2 did that shot appear to come from?
3 A. Well, it appeared to come from the GPO as
4 well.
5 Q. If we go back to AD62.5, which is your map,
6 you have shown on the map where Damien Donaghy was?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recall where Mr Johnston was?
9 A. Round about the same area, he could have
10 drifted out towards William Street as well, you know.
11 Q. What, you think he may have been slightly to
12 the north of Damien Donaghy?
13 A. I am not sure about that, you know.
14 Q. You are not sure of that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did he actually fall or did he simply
17 stumble?
18 A. No, I do not know if he fell or he stumbled,
19 you know. I know as soon as he was shot that was me
20 away, you know.
21 Q. If we could go back to your statement,
22 AD62.2, at paragraph 9, you say there that you heard no
23 nail bombs or other explosions?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you say this:
1 "It is quite possible that some of the boys
2 were throwing stones towards the soldiers at the other
3 side of William Street, which was a normal activity."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that a reference to the boys on the waste
6 ground to the south of William Street?
7 A. Right, wait until we get this right.
8 MR TOOHEY: To the south, Mr Clarke?
9 MR CLARKE: Yes.
10 A. William Street.
11 Q. The waste ground on the south?
12 A. You are saying out at the front of that waste
13 ground at William Street.
14 Q. Let us look at it on the map, AD62.5, please.
15 A. Yes, where C is marked there.
16 Q. When I say "the waste ground to the south of
17 William Street", I am referring to the waste ground in
18 which the letter C appears on your map?
19 A. Yes, yes, there could have been boys throwing
20 there.
21 Q. May we go back to AD62.2, paragraph 11,
22 please. You then took a route which got you to the
23 first block of houses in Lisfannon Park?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when you got there, you could hear the
1 crackle of gunfire?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From the direction of the Rossville Flats,
4 the waste ground, Pilot Row and Eden Place?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you recall how long you were at
7 Lisfannon Park for?
8 A. Well, I could have been standing around for
9 a couple of -- I do not honestly know, it could have
10 been two or three minutes, it could have been ten
11 minutes, I do not know.
12 Q. Can you recall how much gunfire you heard?
13 A. Well a lot, I was still afraid at that stage,
14 you know, possibly maybe something ricocheting through,
15 so I would say there was a lot of gunfire at that time,
16 do you know.
17 Q. Did it all appear to be coming from one
18 direction or did it appear to be going in more than one
19 direction?
20 A. It is hard to tell, you know, there was just
21 crackling in the air, you know.
22 Q. You did not see anybody hit or fall?
23 A. At that stage?
24 Q. At that stage.
25 A. No, because just later Mr Quinn, you know, is
1 named there as well, I seen him.
2 Q. Mr Quinn?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. As you say in this passage at 11, you turned
5 westwards to your left and someone shouted that a lad
6 had been shot?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when you looked right there was a young
9 lad hit in the cheek?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was he alone or was he with people?
12 A. It is hard to tell among the confusion, you
13 know.
14 Q. Were there a lot of people around at that
15 stage?
16 A. A fair few, but -- to put a number on it I do
17 not know, but there was a lot of people milling about
18 that area, you know, and I think everybody at that
19 point there were maybe in the same frame of myself, to
20 get away, you know.
21 Q. You and others took him off in the direction
22 of Blucher Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If we go over the page, at paragraph 13,
25 AD62.3, you found some medical people in Blucher
1 Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you mean that there were some people
4 actually in the street or somebody in a house in the
5 street?
6 A. I do not recall if we knocked at the door,
7 somebody may have knocked at a door, you know, and seen
8 that this young lad was hit. There may have been
9 medical people about, do you know.
10 Q. Did one or other of you know there were
11 likely to be medical people at Blucher Street?
12 A. Maybe they were just, you know, there with
13 the march that day, you know.
14 Q. I wonder why you went to Blucher Street as
15 opposed to any other street?
16 A. Because the young lad was facing in that
17 direction and we just, you know, we just ran in that
18 direction, you know, which was away from the gunfire
19 that we heard at that time, you know.
20 Q. Could we have a look at P779, please: can you
21 turn that round, please. Is that the man you are
22 talking about?
23 A. No, I do not recall that.
24 Q. You do not recall the face?
25 A. No.
1 Q. If we go back to paragraph 14 on AD62.3, you
2 say that you could not see much of what was going on
3 when you were standing at Lisfannon Park. But you
4 remember:
5 "... people running towards us up the Old
6 Bog Road ..."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "... in front of the houses."
9 Was there anything causing them to run up the
10 road?
11 A. I think it was just at that stage just panic,
12 you know, people were just any direction, do you know,
13 to get away from, you know, maybe Glenfada Park or out
14 by the Rossville Flats, you know.
15 Q. In paragraph 15 you say that you had heard
16 live rounds being used before because you live in the
17 Creggan?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And live rounds were fired at the army on
20 Blighes Lane from time to time, but you could not tell
21 the difference between the types of gunfire?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you mean by that that you could not tell
24 the difference between gunfire from rubber bullets and
25 gunfire from live bullets?
1 A. No, no, live rounds, do you know.
2 Q. Could you tell the difference?
3 A. No, I could not tell the difference in live
4 rounds. What you are saying about rubber bullets,
5 rubber bullets is a different sound from live rounds,
6 you know.
7 Q. I know they are, but what I am asking is
8 whether you can tell the difference between a sound by
9 a rubber bullet and the sound by a live round?
10 A. You can -- no.
11 Q. You could, could you?
12 A. Aye, you can tell the difference.
13 Q. But could you?
14 A. Could I?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I wonder if I could ask your help in
18 identifying where the police post was in Blighes Lane.
19 Could we have photograph P222? This is an aerial
20 photograph which shows, amongst other things, Blighes
21 Lane marked in the centre. Do you recognise there
22 where the post was?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I wonder could we set up the machine so that
25 it can be marked by Mr Doherty with a blue arrow.
1 I wonder if you could, either using your finger or
2 there may be a stylus like this nearby, just show us
3 where the post was?
4 A. It is all in this area here. (Marked with
5 blue arrows). I was trying to do it there with my
6 finger to take you round, you know. It is just the
7 arrows came up, you know it is all in that areas --
8 Q. Could we set it so we draw a circle?
9 A. That was what I was trying to do.
10 Q. Try again.
11 A. No, there is no circle coming up there. But
12 that area there where you see -- that is a factory
13 there, that is a factory in there, that was the old BSR
14 factory and my home was just across that, you know, my
15 house is approximately there, you know. (Marked with
16 arrow).
17 Q. Could I have control of this machine,
18 I wonder if you can simply guide me?
19 A. Yes, if I had a stylus, I do not see any
20 here.
21 Q. Is that building I am pointing to a factory?
22 A. The factory is to the right of that.
23 Q. The factory is to the right of that --
24 A. So, you know, the army occupied, you know,
25 some of that area, you know.
1 Q. That is a factory I am pointing to, is it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where is the police post?
4 A. You see the waste ground?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. It would have been to the left of it. The
7 vehicles would have been parked there. They may have
8 occupied some of part of the factory, you know, or the
9 bullets would have been around the outside of that
10 factory, you know.
11 Q. The police post is where the green arrow is,
12 is it. (Marked with green arrows - AD62.7).
13 A. Roughly in all that area there, that sort of
14 waste ground there, you know, the vehicles would have
15 been parked there, you know, so they would have been
16 disembarking in that area there.
17 Q. Was there a building which the police used?
18 A. I do not know if the police were there.
19 Q. Or the army?
20 A. Mostly the army, you know.
21 Q. Was there a building they normally used?
22 A. They could have built their own, I am not
23 sure, you know. But I know they had outposts on the
24 outside of that factory there. That is called Eastway
25 Road. They had outposts there, you know, billets, you
1 know.
2 Q. And you lived?
3 A. I lived just -- see those houses there, you
4 see that gap there, I lived there in that house there.
5 So that gap there was a vantage point and that is what
6 I would have heard the gunfire, from there. (Marked
7 with red arrow - AD62.7).
8 Q. Can we preserve that as AD62.7. Those are
9 all the questions I wanted to ask.
10 A. So our house would have been just -- the side
11 of our house is still marked yet with bullet holes in
12 it yet, you know.
13 Q. The side of your house is still marked with
14 bullet holes?
15 A. Yes, where the army would have returned fire
16 Questioned by MS DOHERTY
17 MS DOHERTY: My name is Fiona Doherty and
18 I appear for some of the families of the deceased and
19 a number of the wounded from Bloody Sunday. There is
20 one point I would like to clear up with you, if you do
21 not mind.
22 If we could have Mr Doherty's map, AD62.5.
23 Mr Doherty, I think you have given evidence today that
24 you were at point B and Damien Donaghy or the person
25 you now know to be Damien Donaghy was at point C when
1 you saw him shot, is that not correct?
2 A. Roughly, yes.
3 Q. You then saw him carried to point D, at which
4 stage you went over to point D before returning to
5 point B and at that stage you saw Johnston or the
6 person you now know to be Johnston shot; is that
7 correct, that is a fair summary, is it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The point I want to ask you about,
10 Mr Doherty, is this: I am wondering can you clarify for
11 the Tribunal how long had elapsed between you seeing
12 Damien Donaghy shot and you returning to point B and
13 seeing Mr Johnston shot?
14 A. Well, the only way I could put it is: when
15 I arrived at point B, you know, how long it took for,
16 you know, Damien was out in front of me, he may have
17 been moving about, I do not know, when he was shot and
18 he was taken behind McLaughlin's shop there at the
19 garages there, I went over and looked at him, you know,
20 and I glanced and I seen he was shot and I walked
21 straight back to where I was, do you know, you know.
22 To put an exact time, you know, it could have been
23 a minute, maybe two, you know, over that period of
24 time.
25 I do not know how long I was standing before
1 John Johnston, you know ...
2 Q. We are talking in the region of maybe one to
3 two minutes, would that be fair?
4 A. Maybe, yes.
5 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
6 MR GLASGOW: Mr Doherty, I wonder if we could
7 have the map left on the screen for a moment, please,
8 AD62.6. While you have that map in front of you,
9 Mr Doherty, the enlarged section, you are at B and you
10 are looking across at Mr Damien Donaghy in front of you
11 at C. You told my learned friend Mr Clarke, the first
12 gentleman who asked you questions, that you could not
13 see into William Street. Do you think you may be
14 confused about that, was there anything to prevent you
15 --
16 A. You can see into William Street a certain
17 point, but you cannot see --
18 Q. Just the part of William Street on the map?
19 A. When you are looking over the waste ground to
20 the GPO.
21 Q. Can we have P201, please. If you could
22 orientate yourself on that, Mr Doherty, you are to the
23 left of the photograph, are you not, almost on the
24 left-hand side?
25 A. Can I mark it here meself, or ...
1 Q. You can be given control of it, you could
2 mark it exactly?
3 A. Somewhere out there, a wee bit slightly more
4 forward than that, I am looking out on to the waste
5 ground here, you know. (Marked with blue arrow).
6 Q. As you looked into the direction that you are
7 just pointing, you can see Mr Donaghy in the waste
8 ground in front of you, a little bit of William Street
9 and some more waste ground on the other side?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The bit of William Street that you could see,
12 we have been told by a number of people at that time
13 would have been really very full of people?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember that or do you disagree with
16 that?
17 A. I disagree with that, do you know, that it
18 was full of people.
19 Q. How would you describe the state of the part
20 of William Street that you could see?
21 A. You mean by full of people there was
22 somebody, the bulk of the march, was that what you
23 mean?
24 Q. A throng, a crowd of people moving down
25 William Street, is that the way you recall it?
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. You do not. Describe it in your own words to
3 the Tribunal, would you? We want to know what sort of
4 time this was that you are talking about.
5 A. The time of the day?
6 Q. No, no, what the state of the march was.
7 Roughly how many people would you say there were
8 abreast, if there were a number abreast going down
9 William Street?
10 A. I do not recall how many people was at the
11 march, you know, obviously it was in the thousands, is
12 that what you are talking about, or ...
13 Q. Cast your mind back -- I know it is a long
14 time ago, if you cannot remember, say so and I will
15 leave it. Cast your mind back, looking across the
16 waste ground at William Street in front of you. How
17 would you describe the state of William Street in terms
18 of the number of people there were walking down it?
19 A. I do not recall a lot of people being in
20 William Street, you know. The march must have
21 dispersed or you know they had come round into
22 Rossville Street, do you know.
23 MR GLASGOW: May I be blunt with you,
24 Mr Doherty? A number of people, quite a lot of people,
25 have given statements and told the Tribunal that at the
1 time when Mr Donaghy was shot there really was a real
2 crowd moving down William Street --
3 LORD SAVILLE: That is quite right,
4 Mr Glasgow, but there are also quite a large number of
5 people who say what Mr Doherty says, which is at that
6 stage there were not many people there. I quite agree,
7 there does seem to be a difference of recollection.
8 Your recollection, Mr Doherty, is there were not many
9 people in William Street at the time you saw Damien
10 Donaghy fall to the ground?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 MR GLASGOW: Very well. As you looked across
13 William Street in front of you, there was not much to
14 prevent you seeing what was going on in the waste
15 ground further to the north, in that case?
16 A. Further to the north.
17 Q. As we look at the photograph, it is the
18 slightly darker area to the right in front of the
19 building with the nine blank windows. There was not
20 anything to stop you seeing what was going on there if
21 there were not very many people in William Street, was
22 there?
23 A. It is hard to tell now. You are talking
24 about this building here?
25 Q. No, I am sorry, Mr Doherty, you are not
1 clear. To the right, the area to the right of William
2 Street as we look at the photograph, or if you continue
3 with your second blue arrow across William Street,
4 there is some more waste ground there?
5 A. You are talking out there?
6 Q. Yes. If there were not very many people in
7 William Street from your recollection there was not
8 anything to prevent you seeing what was going on on
9 that waste ground, was there?
10 A. I do not recall.
11 Q. You do not recall it at all?
12 A. I do not recall looking out into that waste
13 ground out there, do you know.
14 Q. You could see across that waste ground
15 because you have told us you could see the soldiers on
16 the GPO?
17 A. Yes, that is because the soldiers are here,
18 you know, this is the GPO here, would that be right?
19 These arrows are not coming up right. (Marked with
20 arrows).
21 Q. I am sorry, the arrows have come up the wrong
22 way round. You meant the arrow to point in the
23 opposite direction to the rather white square which is
24 the roof of the GPO?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. That was where you saw soldiers?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If you look to the other side of the waste
4 ground you can see a building with nine blank windows,
5 can you not, which is the old burnt-out factory?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you see that building from where you
8 were?
9 A. No, I would not think so.
10 Q. If there were soldiers in that you would not
11 have been able to see them?
12 A. I did not see them if they were, I did not
13 see any soldiers in that.
14 Q. You described Mr Donaghy with these words:
15 that he could have been drifting back and forth?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I wonder if you could help the Tribunal about
18 that: if you put yourself in the position of the
19 building with the nine windows, imagine yourself
20 standing there, will you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Looking back towards you and where Mr Donaghy
23 was, if Mr Donaghy was in your words drifting back and
24 forth, as seen from that building with the nine
25 windows, he would have been coming into view and going
1 out of view round the corner of the building we can
2 see, is that right?
3 A. That would have been if he was drifting back
4 and forth, do you know. I am only surmising that he
5 drifted back and forth, do you know, going back 29
6 years. I know he was in that waste ground and I have
7 pinpointed, you know, C, that area, drifting back and
8 forth that, do you know.
9 Q. I fully accept that, Mr Doherty, that is why
10 I put your own words to you, they were, I stress, "he
11 could have been drifting back and forth". If he was in
12 your words drifting back and forth --
13 A. That would have been left him out in view of
14 those nine windows.
15 Q. He could have been coming in and out of view
16 round the corner. You are unable to help as to whether
17 he had anything in his hand?
18 A. I do not know if he had anything in his hand.
19 Q. In the words of your statement if he did it
20 could have been a stone or some other missile?
21 A. I do not think it would have been another
22 missile, it would have been a stone, may be, you know.
23 Q. Your actual words -- please change them if
24 they are not your recollection now -- in paragraph 7
25 is:
1 "I do not remember whether he was throwing
2 stones or any other missiles."
3 A. I do not remember if he was or not.
4 Q. You do not remember one way or the other?
5 A. No.
6 Q. The last matter, again that you have been
7 asked about, Mr Doherty, is your experience of living
8 near Blighes Lane. It was put to you on a number of
9 occasions that was a police post. I think your own
10 recollection was it was an army?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In your words "they were billeted there"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Firing on that army post had regrettably
15 become quite a regular occurrence?
16 A. Regular, how do you mean regular?
17 Q. I will not put any words to you, you tell us
18 what you mean. Roughly how often did it happen?
19 A. I cannot recall, it did happen, you know. At
20 one point it would be every week or every month or
21 every six months. It is hard to tell. On a number of
22 occasions it happened.
23 Q. A number of times. Enough for you to become
24 familiar with the noise of live rounds?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the distinction that you were making to
2 my learned friend Mr Clarke when he was asking you
3 questions was: although you could tell the difference
4 between live rounds and rubber bullets, you could not
5 tell the difference always between different types of
6 live round?
7 A. No.
8 Q. That was your position?
9 A. Yes, I know by the crackle of the sound that
10 it is, you know, a live round.
11 Q. You would know for certain it was a live
12 round, but you would not know what sort of weapon we
13 were talking about or you were listening to?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Not only does a live round make a different
16 noise depending on what fires it, it also make
17 a different noise depending on the direction in which
18 it is going in relation to yourself, does it not? If
19 it is coming towards you or going away from you it
20 makes a very different noise?
21 A. I think so, yes.
22 Q. Out in that relatively open ground in front
23 of your house, it would make a different noise than it
24 would make in a confined, enclosed -- what was
25 described yesterday as an echo chamber?
1 A. The only way I can put it is when there was
2 a live round, you know -- my father was alive at the
3 time, he knew it was a live round and he knew the
4 possibility that everybody was going to fire back and
5 he made us hit the floor, you know. We are talking
6 when we were 16, 17, 18, you know. When he knew it was
7 a live round, you knew yourself then that it was a live
8 round being fired, you know.
9 Q. If you had heard a live round being fired at
10 the army post, your father would say there is likely to
11 be a live round fired back?
12 A. He would have said "down, down, on the
13 ground", you know, he would have told us all to get on
14 the ground.
15 Q. Do you recall that the noise of the round
16 being fired --
17 A. You know you have to remember it is at the
18 side of our house, we are in a gable house with another
19 house, you know, there is an echo there, you know, so
20 it would be pretty loud when, maybe my mother was in
21 the kitchen or whatever, you know.
22 Q. Quite close by?
23 A. Very close by, yes.
24 Q. Was the noise of the round going towards the
25 army post sometimes different to the noise going in the
1 opposite direction?
2 A. I could not pinpoint that.
3 Q. Very well. Your own recollection when you
4 were down at Lisfannon Park was that you were
5 definitely hearing live rounds?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But you could not tell which direction they
8 were all going in?
9 A. Yes, that is right.
10 Q. Was it obvious they were going in different
11 directions?
12 A. It is hard to tell, you know, to pinpoint
13 that they were going in different directions.
14 MR GLASGOW: Thank you very much,
15 Mr Doherty.
16 Questioned by MR ELIAS
17 MR ELIAS: Mr Doherty, just this: you helped
18 the young lad with the wound to the cheek?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You assisted him to Blucher Street?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. 62.3, your statement, paragraph 13, AD62.3,
23 you were asked about this:
24 "When we got to Blucher Street, I found that
25 there were some medical people there"; do you mean by
1 that -- I appreciate you say you cannot now remember
2 going into a house, whether this was in the street, but
3 "by some medical people there", do you mean they were
4 doctors?
5 A. No, it would have been Knights of Malta, they
6 would have just maybe went with the march, do you know.
7 Q. I am concerned about the people that you
8 remember seeing in Blucher Street. They were Knights
9 of Malta, were they?
10 A. I think they were, I would not be sure, you
11 know.
12 Q. And more than one?
13 A. I could not be sure about that. I know at
14 that time that I was fearful that the word would get
15 back to Creggan and my parents would be worried about
16 meself and me brothers or if they were on the march,
17 you know, I wanted to get away, I wanted to get home,
18 you know.
19 MR ELIAS: You were more concerned about
20 that.
21 SIR ALLAN GREEN: No questions, sir.
22 MR CLARKE: I do not have any further
23 questions.
24 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much,
25 Mr Doherty.
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 MR CLARKE: Sir, I am afraid we now have
3 a slight hiatus. The next witness is going to be
4 John McGee and then James Anthony Doherty and
5 Mrs McDaid. I am afraid that he will not be here,
6 available to give evidence, until about 11.00, which
7 will in fact enable us to have a look at the statements
8 of Mrs Doherty and Mr McDaid.
9 LORD SAVILLE: We will have to adjourn until
10 11 o'clock, then.
11 (10.20 am)
12 (A short adjournment)
13 (11.15 am)
14 LORD SAVILLE: I think we have Mr McGee now,
15 do we?
16 MR CLARKE: Yes, we do.
17 JOHN McGEE (sworn)
18 Questioned by MR CLARKE
19 LORD SAVILLE: Mr McGee, if you look to your
20 right, you will see who it is talking to you. You will
21 be asked some questions by Counsel sitting in front of
22 me. All I would ask you at this stage to do is to keep
23 your mouth fairly close to that microphone so that
24 everybody can hear what you have to say.
25 A. Thank you.
1 MR CLARKE: Can we have on the screen
2 AM223.1? Mr McGee, do you have with you your statement
3 to this Tribunal, signed by you on 30th April 1999?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Are the contents of that statement true, to
6 the best of your knowledge and belief?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. You describe in paragraph 2 a recollection of
9 standing on William Street near what was Bradley's taxi
10 stand. You have been kind enough to mark that. If we
11 look at AM223.8, at point X, is that where the stand
12 was?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Does that mean that there was a space marked
15 out in the road for a taxi to wait at? When you use
16 the expression "a stand", what do you mean?
17 A. We just knew it as a taxi stand, you went
18 there for your taxis, but I cannot recall being marked
19 out as a stand, as a taxi, but it was a taxi office.
20 Q. When you say it was a taxi office, can we
21 have a look at EP5.21. This was one of the pictures
22 that we have seen in the course of this Inquiry?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Which I have taken to be either City Cabs or
25 Bradley's Taxis?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that right?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. That is the office?
5 A. That is the office.
6 Q. Is that the place that you were?
7 A. Well, I was at the vicinity of there.
8 Q. You were just in the vicinity?
9 A. Yes, in the street.
10 Q. If we go back to paragraph 2 at AM223.1, you
11 say that when you were there that the march appeared to
12 have come to a halt. There were thousands of people
13 along the length of William Street and you recall
14 seeing some soldiers on a flat roof to the north of
15 William Street and you have marked the roof of the GPO
16 sorting office on your photograph.
17 Do you recall seeing soldiers anywhere else
18 at that stage?
19 A. Not that I can remember.
20 Q. If we might now have paragraph 3 maximized,
21 please. You describe hearing the sound of shots fired
22 from the direction of the soldiers which you thought,
23 as did others around you, were only rubber bullets at
24 first. Can you recall approximately how many shots you
25 heard in all?
1 A. No, not exactly, no.
2 Q. Was it more than a couple?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it possible that you heard both rubber
5 bullets and live bullets being fired?
6 A. It is possible.
7 Q. But you certainly realised that they were
8 firing live bullets when you saw Damien Donaghy lying
9 on the pavement on the southern side of William Street?
10 A. Well, I do not think they would shoot rubber
11 bullets from the top of a roof, do you know.
12 Q. If we go to your photograph at AM223.8, were
13 you still at point X or thereabouts when you saw Damien
14 Donaghy lying on the ground?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Whereabouts was he when you saw him?
17 A. Well, as I say, I cannot just remember where
18 he was, but I know he was very close to me when it
19 happened.
20 Q. Right. Sorry, did you want to add something?
21 A. No, that is all.
22 Q. Was he to the south of you, that is to say to
23 the left-hand side of the photograph as we look at it?
24 A. Yes, more on the footpath.
25 Q. More on the footpath?
1 A. I think so, yes.
2 Q. Did you know him at the time?
3 A. I did, yes.
4 Q. Had you seen him before you saw him lying on
5 the ground?
6 A. No.
7 Q. At this stage, so far as William Street was
8 concerned, what sort of quantity of people were in it?
9 A. Thousands, it was packed.
10 Q. Packed, was it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What about the waste ground to the left of
13 the photograph as we look at it, to the south of
14 William Street. Were there any people there?
15 A. I could not say.
16 Q. What about the waste ground to the north, in
17 front of that building with nine blank windows in it,
18 did you see any people there?
19 A. As I say, I remember seeing across the street
20 -- it was just a mass of people, you know.
21 Q. If we go back to paragraphs 3 and 4, please
22 at AM223.1. You say there, in the middle of the page,
23 that you did not see anyone throwing stones or anything
24 else at the soldiers on the roof. Did you see that
25 happening at any stage?
1 A. No. Later on in the day, but not at that
2 time, not at that particular time.
3 Q. When did you see stone throwing later on?
4 A. When I went across from the back of
5 Mrs Shiels' house.
6 Q. You say that you are certain that neither
7 Damien Donaghy nor those around you were engaged in
8 anything sinister. You had not, as I understand your
9 previous answer to me, seen what Damien Donaghy was
10 doing before you saw him lying on the ground?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Then you were chatting to Raymond McClean,
13 were you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Mickey McGuinness?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Had you gone on the march with them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you sure that Dr McClean was there at
20 that stage?
21 A. Well, he might not have been at the start of
22 the march, but we ran into him because Mickey
23 McGuinness and Sean Duffy are brothers-in-law.
24 Q. You are not so certain about Dr McClean?
25 A. I am sure he was there because --
1 Q. I am sure he was on the march, I was
2 wondering whether he was actually there with you at the
3 time when Damien Donaghy was shot?
4 A. Not just when he was shot, but when we went
5 to Mrs Shiels' he was there in the house.
6 Q. You were one of those who helped carry
7 Bubbles Donaghy into Mrs Shiels' house?
8 A. Well, I might not have been, but I was sort
9 of like in the crowd. Mickey McGuinness was more or
10 less carrying him and another fella, but I was just
11 there sort of hands on, but I went into the house with
12 them and all, if you know what I mean.
13 Q. Do you recall the people carrying Bubbles
14 Donaghy stopping at some stage on the way to
15 Mrs Shiels' house?
16 A. I cannot recollect.
17 Q. When you were there in the street, which you
18 say was packed with people, was there a lot of noise
19 going on?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Sorry?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see or hear people shouting at the
24 soldiers?
25 A. I am sure they were.
1 Q. Did you hear any bangs or explosions?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You then went into the house and Bubbles
4 Donaghy was treated. You say, if we could look at
5 paragraph 6 at the bottom, that "whilst we were there,
6 John Johnston was brought in". Had you seen him before
7 he was brought into her house?
8 A. No.
9 Q. May we go to paragraph 7 on the next page.
10 You describe hearing shooting and shouts coming from
11 outside?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Whilst you were in the house?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. Could you tell what sort of shooting it was?
16 A. Not exactly, no.
17 Q. Could you tell where it was coming from?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you recall roughly how long you were in
20 the house?
21 A. (Shrugging shoulders). Half an hour maybe.
22 Q. At some stage Dr McClean was told that others
23 had been shot and you went with him and Sean Duffy and
24 Mickey McGuinness, is that right?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. When you went out of the house, did anybody
2 try to stop you?
3 A. No, they just told me "watch yourself" there
4 was shooting, people shot.
5 Q. You made your way, as you tell us, towards
6 Glenfada Park. If we look at AM223.7, I think that we
7 can see the route that you went, ending up at point A.
8 Could we maximize the bit in the middle, please, at the
9 southwestern alleyway coming out of Glenfada Park
10 North; is that right?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Then the sight that you saw when you got
13 there is shown in the photograph attached to your
14 statement at AM223.12. Could we lighten it, please?
15 Could we have P701. It is the same photograph in
16 a better form. Can we lighten that? Do you recognise
17 any of the people in that photograph?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us who you recognise?
20 A. Sean Duffy is there anyway, with a cigarette
21 in his mouth.
22 Q. Is that the man on the far left?
23 A. The one with the coat, yes.
24 Q. Holding the coat with a beard?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. That is Sean Duffy?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Anyone else you recognise?
4 A. I think that is me in front, I am not too
5 sure, I am trying to see if me finger is missing.
6 Q. When you say in front, which one is you?
7 A. Just directly in front of Sean Duffy.
8 Q. I see, with a jersey with a stripe down the
9 middle?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You think that is you. Anyone else?
12 A. Uh-huh, a fella Rushe there as well in the
13 centre of the photograph, his face towards us.
14 Q. Who is he?
15 A. I think you call him Rushe, I do not know his
16 first name, I am not too sure.
17 Q. Could I have control, please. Is that the
18 man you mean? (Marked with arrow)
19 A. No, I know that man there, he used to play in
20 a band, as far as I can recollect. His name does not
21 come to me, but I know the man from -- he come from
22 Nelson Street or Wilton Street originally, I think.
23 Q. But the man you identified, Rushe?
24 A. To the right of him.
25 Q. Is that the man with the beard?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that Anthony Rushe?
3 A. I could not just say, I know he was one of
4 the Rushes.
5 Q. Anyone else whom you recognise?
6 A. I cannot see them too clearly anyway.
7 Q. The man you identified as Mr Rushe is marked
8 in red by me. (Marked with red arrow - AM223.19)?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could we preserve that image as AM223.19?
11 Could we also have a look at AM223.13? I am sorry, can
12 we have P700. You have identified on your AM223.13,
13 Sean Duffy, the man right in the middle of the
14 photograph with the light jersey and a beard. Is there
15 anyone else you can identify on that photograph?
16 A. I think that is Patsy Doherty at the top of
17 Sean Duffy's head there, just.
18 Q. The man with glasses and a beard?
19 A. I think so, I am not 100 per cent, but --
20 Q. You think that is Sean Doherty?
21 A. Patsy Doherty, yes.
22 Q. Anybody else you recognise?
23 A. I still think that is me with a cloth in me
24 hand.
25 Q. With a cloth in your hand?
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Anybody else?
3 A. I cannot see them clear enough.
4 Q. If we could go back to AM223.2, your
5 statement at paragraph 9. You describe walking through
6 the alleyway in the southwestern corner of Glenfada
7 Park North and coming across, in your recollection, two
8 men lying on the ground, and you have identified those
9 on your map at points B and C. If we could look at
10 AM223.7, you identify B as the place where you saw John
11 Wray and C as the place where you saw William McKinney;
12 is that right?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. You knew Jim Wray, did you know William
15 McKinney?
16 A. I did not know him as well as I knew Jim
17 Wray, but I knew William McKinney, yes.
18 (11.30 am)
19 Q. Could we look at photograph AM223.17? This
20 is a photograph taken from the northwest of
21 Glenfada Park. This is taken from a different angle,
22 but do you recollect seeing that sort of scene as you
23 came in from the southwest alleyway which is to the
24 right of the photograph?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But you do not recollect seeing the third man
2 on the pavement; is that right?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. When you went into Glenfada Park, apart from
5 the two bodies that you saw, did you see anybody else
6 in the park?
7 A. I cannot recollect anybody by name.
8 Q. You did not see any soldiers?
9 A. No soldiers.
10 Q. If we go back to AM223.2, you describe in
11 paragraph 11 how Jim Wray's body was taken away, you
12 think by the St John's ambulance and you then went over
13 to William McKinney. I want to show you a photograph
14 which is P688.01. This is a photograph the Inquiry has
15 seen. Could we have 688.01, this is 688? Could you
16 lighten the photograph up nonetheless.
17 This is a photograph in which people have
18 identified two bodies being taken out of Glenfada Park,
19 one of whom has been identified as James Wray and the
20 other one as William McKinney. Your paragraph 11 tends
21 to suggest that James Wray was taken out and then you
22 went over to William McKinney so that he was left in
23 the park.
24 Do you think you may be mistaken on that?
25 A. I might have well been, I am just not 100 per
1 cent.
2 Q. If we go back to AM223.2 at paragraph 10, you
3 refer there to the fact that you yourself picked up,
4 either from Jim Wray's hands or from the ground close
5 to him, a small brown-handled steak knife; is that
6 right?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. And a couple of pebbles. Did they look as if
9 they had fallen from his hand?
10 A. They were lying beside him.
11 Q. Was there anything else lying beside him?
12 A. I had all these things here and a pair of
13 glasses belonging to another gentleman as well.
14 Q. The glasses belonged to?
15 A. Mr McKinney. Dark, thick, black glasses, you
16 know. As I say, I put them in a tin box at home and
17 I have never came across them again.
18 Q. If we go over the page to 223.3, paragraph
19 13, you describe having a vague recollection of seeing,
20 whilst you were in Glenfada Park, some bodies in
21 Rossville Street to the south of the rubble barricade
22 and around the entrance to the flats. You say that you
23 recall seeing a crowd of people sheltering by the gable
24 end in the southwestern corner of Glenfada Park North.
25 I wonder whether you actually mean southwestern. Could
1 we look at your map, AM223.7.
2 If I could have control, you came into the
3 park from that alleyway. That is the southwestern
4 alleyway. When you say that you saw a crowd of people
5 sheltering by the gable end, which gable end do you
6 mean?
7 A. That would be the Glenfada Park North there,
8 the rubble barricade.
9 Q. That is to say --
10 A. Somewhere around there.
11 Q. The gable end I am pointing out with a green
12 arrow? (Marked with green arrow).
13 A. Yes, it is just looking a gap, that is all I
14 seen of it, you know.
15 Q. I see, that is the southeastern gable end.
16 What were these people doing at this stage?
17 A. They were standing at the barricade there
18 looking down Rossville Street, or hiding behind the
19 barricade and the walls there and the corners.
20 Q. There were not any soldiers around at this
21 stage?
22 A. No, I did not see any soldiers.
23 Q. I wonder if we could turn to AM223.18.
24 I should explain what this is. This is a document we
25 obtained from The Sunday Times archives. It is dated,
1 7th March. It has some initials PP, which probably
2 stand for Peter Pringle, who was a member of the
3 Insight team. Do you remember talking to a journalist
4 from The Sunday Times in about March 1972?
5 A. I do not recollect, you know.
6 Q. Sorry?
7 A. I cannot recollect it. Probably.
8 Q. What he has written, presumably having talked
9 to you, is this "John McGee, 24, barman at the Rocking
10 Chair, Waterloo Street"; were you a barman at the
11 Rocking Chair in Waterloo Street?
12 A. I was a barman at the City Hotel.
13 Q. Did you ever work at the Rocking Chair?
14 A. I helped -- I knocked about with Sean Duffy,
15 so I always gave Sean a hand, you know, so. I helped
16 him.
17 Q. You helped out from time to time?
18 A. At the Rocking Chair, yes.
19 Q. What the journalist has written is:
20 "He concurs with statements with Dr McClean
21 and Sean Duffy. The only bonus" by which I think he
22 means the additional information obtained "is that it
23 was he who put Geraldine Richmond, the hysterical lady
24 from Glenfada Park into the two ambulances which
25 carried Wray, Kelly and the two McKinneys to
1 Altnagelvin."
2 Do you recall putting an hysterical lady into
3 an ambulance?
4 A. I cannot recall.
5 Q. You cannot recall. I want to ask you about
6 one other thing: may we have on the screen AM105.1.
7 This is the statement to this Inquiry of Dr McClean.
8 Could we go to AM105.2. In paragraph 11 of his
9 statement, what Dr McClean says is this:
10 "In the week between the protest at
11 Magilligan and the anti-internment march on 30th
12 January, I became concerned at what was likely to
13 happen. I knew there was a bar at the top of
14 Waterloo Street which was a source of local civil
15 rights information. I went with my brothers-in-law
16 Mickey McGuinness and Danny McGuinness to find out what
17 the word was on the march."
18 Michael McGuinness has told us the bar in
19 question was the Rocking Chair bar:
20 "A few fellows in the bar had confirmed what
21 I was previously told, that the IRA would stand down."
22 Do you recall an occasion when Dr McClean
23 came with his two brothers-in-law to the Rocking Chair
24 bar?
25 A. I cannot recollect.
1 Q. Do you recall gossip or talk in the bar that
2 the IRA would stand down?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was it anything more specific than gossip and
5 talk?
6 A. That is all it was, hearsay.
7 Q. Did anyone who appeared to have any
8 connection with the IRA say anything to that effect?
9 A. No, not that I can recall.
10 MR CLARKE: Thank you, those are the
11 questions that I wanted to ask.
12 Questioned by MR R HARVEY
13 MR HARVEY: Good afternoon, Mr McGee.
14 I represent the Wray family, I just would like to ask
15 you a couple of questions.
16 From where you left the Shiels' house and
17 went down towards Abbey Park where you saw the body of
18 Gerard McKinney, while you were on your way, did you
19 see any soldiers at all?
20 A. Not on my way over, no.
21 Q. Did you hear any shooting at that stage?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you tell where that shooting appeared
24 to be coming from?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Could you tell by the sound whether these
2 were high velocity bullets or rubber bullets, or what?
3 A. They sounded like high velocity.
4 Q. When you reached the body of Gerard McKinney,
5 we have seen the two photographs this morning, you
6 stood there for a little while in that cluster of
7 people around him, did you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You describe at some stage being in a daze;
10 were you already dazed at that point?
11 A. Correct, yes.
12 Q. In a state of shock, I think is another term
13 you used?
14 A. I think everyone was, you know.
15 Q. Just dealing with yourself --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- how clearly were you thinking at the time?
18 A. Not very.
19 Q. Did you see, before you went through the
20 alleyway into Glenfada Park North, do you have any
21 recollection of seeing anybody being carried out of
22 there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When you went in, though, you only saw two
25 bodies?
1 A. Two bodies, yes.
2 Q. And at some point you sat down near Jim Wray?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Do you have any idea why you sat down?
5 A. Because I knew him.
6 Q. Somewhere in the vicinity of his body was
7 a small --
8 A. I had a watch belonging to Jim, a small
9 watch.
10 Q. I was going to ask you about that in
11 a second, if I may. You say also that in the vicinity
12 of his body there was a small steak knife?
13 A. Serrated edges, very small, brown-handled,
14 with wee small edges on it.
15 Q. Any idea as you sit here today how far from
16 his body you found that?
17 A. Right beside his body, like, you know.
18 Q. Near his hands, near his feet, near his head?
19 A. I cannot recollect. There was a few stones
20 beside it, you know.
21 Q. Dealing with the watch now: can you recall
22 how close to him the watch was?
23 A. I cannot, the watch was there, if you know
24 what I mean, it was just like the knife.
25 Q. It had appeared to come off his wrist?
1 A. That is correct, aye.
2 Q. Could you see, was the watch damaged in any
3 way?
4 A. I think the face of it was broke, you know,
5 the glass face.
6 Q. What about the strap?
7 A. No, I think it was one of those elasticated
8 straps, you know the (indicating) I had this watch, you
9 know, for years and ...
10 Q. Can you remember what you did with it?
11 A. I put it in a tin box at home along with the
12 glasses belonging to Mr McKinney and a few other things
13 and, and I have never found it.
14 Q. This could be of some value to the Inquiry?
15 A. I know, I know. It is moving house, it was
16 moving house and I think that is what happened, you
17 know.
18 Q. You are no longer in the same house?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You have looked for it recently to try to
21 find it?
22 A. I have looked, as soon as I found out about
23 this here, I inquired about it, you know, but
24 I cannot ...
25 Q. Do you think it is worth looking again?
1 A. I am going to have a go at it anyway.
2 Q. The family would certainly be grateful if you
3 would do that.
4 A. I will do my best for you.
5 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
6 MR GLASGOW: Mr McGee, could we have another
7 look at your paragraph 3, please, at AM223.1. It is
8 the third paragraph of your statement I would like your
9 help with. If we go to paragraph 3, Mr McGee. Here
10 you are describing the scene in and around the waste
11 ground in William Street just before Mr Donaghy was
12 shot. Your recollection is that the street was packed;
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There was a lot of noise?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you heard quite a lot of shooting, some
18 of which was rubber bullets, but some of which you
19 later discovered were live rounds?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you give any indication of the total
22 number of shots that you heard, including rubber
23 bullets and live rounds?
24 A. I could not exactly say.
25 Q. They were very noisy and very close by, were
1 they?
2 A. They were to my right-hand side, sir.
3 Q. Sorry, I missed that?
4 A. They were to my right-hand side from the
5 roof.
6 Q. And very noisy?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You say in the middle of that paragraph that
9 there was nothing that you saw that was sinister, by
10 which you mean, that nobody was doing anything that you
11 saw that was aggressive or could have been
12 misinterpreted as such; is that right?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. I understand you say that, Mr McGee, you
15 actually say in the case of Mr Donaghy you are certain
16 that neither Damien Donaghy nor those around him were
17 engaged in anything sinister. I remind you, you are
18 using that word in the sense of, that they would have
19 been doing anything that even might have been
20 misunderstood as being aggressive.
21 How can you be certain about that, you use
22 that word, when you did not see him at all until he had
23 been shot?
24 A. Well, when he fell down in front of me he had
25 nothing with him. He did not even have a rock in his
1 hand, if he was throwing stones. If you call that
2 sinister.
3 Q. As to what he was doing, as to whether he was
4 doing anything that could have been misunderstood as
5 aggression, you simply could not help the Tribunal
6 about that one way or the other could you, let alone be
7 certain about it, is that right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. When you were in Mrs Shiels' house you heard
10 a lot more shooting?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Again, can you give any idea for the Tribunal
13 as to the sort of quantity of shots you are talking
14 about?
15 A. I could not just say, no.
16 Q. Sorry to press you, one or two, or
17 significantly more than that?
18 A. I just could not say, I cannot recollect at
19 all.
20 Q. Were you still with your friends at that
21 stage, including Mr McGuinness?
22 A. I cannot recollect. I just mind going across
23 -- I do not know if I was on my own or with Sean --
24 I was with Sean Duffy, but not Raymond McClean and
25 Guinness, I think they were further on or behind.
1 Q. Was there any talk at all about those shots
2 while you were in the house?
3 A. All we heard was there were some other people
4 shot.
5 Q. You heard that some other people had been
6 shot?
7 A. Shot.
8 Q. Was there no concern as to where the shooting
9 was coming from or who was doing it? Was there no
10 conversation about that?
11 A. No, just -- the word someone said was "the
12 Brits were shooting".
13 Q. Some said it was the British who were
14 shooting?
15 A. "The Brits were shooting".
16 Q. Mickey McGuinness told us yesterday initially
17 he thought it was or might have been IRA shooting. Did
18 you think that initially?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know that he or anyone else had
21 thought that; was there anything that was said that
22 indicated that?
23 A. There was nothing said.
24 Q. Nothing at all?
25 A. Nothing.
1 Q. The last question I wanted to ask you on this
2 page: would you go to the bottom of paragraph 3 as we
3 have it there, just the last couple of lines. You say:
4 "I am positive there were no shots directed
5 at the soldiers on the roof and that the first shots
6 came from their direction."
7 You are there saying no shots in that
8 direction at the time when you were there; you do not
9 know what might have been fired before you got there?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Had you heard any firing at all before you
12 actually got to that point, or were these the first
13 shots of the day?
14 A. Just the first shots that I heard.
15 Q. Were the only soldiers that you saw in that
16 area at that time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The soldiers on the roof?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I expect you know by now that accounts have
21 been given, indeed it is admitted there were soldiers
22 elsewhere in other buildings, did you know that?
23 A. I did not know.
24 Q. If we go over the page to AM223.2, this is
25 the second half of your paragraph 6, at the top of the
1 page, the last sentence, you just say:
2 "There may have been another injured person
3 in Mrs Shiel's house in addition to" that is
4 Mr Donaghy, is it not, and Mr Johnston? Can you help
5 us any more about that, how did that come about, did
6 you think there was three?
7 A. No, I did not think there was three.
8 Q. You just thought there might have been
9 a third?
10 A. Just might. I know the two was there,
11 Mr Donaghy first and then Mr Johnston.
12 Q. It was while you were in that house and
13 indeed right up to the time that you left and while you
14 were leaving, that you heard shooting continuing?
15 A. Uh-huh, that is correct.
16 Q. Was it all of the same kind or did the noise
17 vary?
18 A. I cannot recollect.
19 Q. You cannot?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Going down to paragraph 10, Mr McGee, you
22 gave the account and your own words in your statement
23 were, in the third sentence:
24 "While I was there I picked up, either from
25 Jim Wray's hands or from the ground very close beside
1 him, a small brown-handled steak knife and a couple of
2 pebbles."
3 Why did you do that?
4 A. I do not know, I still do not know to this
5 day.
6 Q. Is it fair to say that there was an
7 understandable concern on your part to ensure that
8 particularly those whom you knew who had been killed or
9 injured had been doing nothing wrong; did you have that
10 in mind?
11 A. That did not enter my head. What could you
12 do with a small steak knife, it was only this size
13 (indicating) and a couple of pebbles.
14 Q. I just asked you why you did it?
15 A. I still cannot recollect why I done it. And
16 lifting a man's glasses, what does that mean. I tried
17 to give them back to his mother, but --
18 Q. I fully appreciate that, if you had found
19 somebody's personal property, you might want to take it
20 and keep it and give it back. That might apply to the
21 glasses.
22 A. It was nothing to do with trying to cover up
23 with them or anything like that so that they were not
24 doing something or doing something. It did not come
25 into it at all.
1 Q. Putting the matter as low as I properly can:
2 it would be right to say, would it not, that you were
3 aware that stories were told about people picking up
4 weapons from people who had been injured or killed
5 during exchanges; did you know that that was said --
6 whether it happened or not -- that that was said to
7 happen?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You have never heard it even suggested --
10 A. I heard it suggested, but never --
11 Q. You have?
12 A. Never heard it suggested from people that was
13 at the march.
14 Q. Can I ask you this, then, Mr McGee: if there
15 had been a weapon of a more sinister kind that you had
16 seen on the ground near anybody who had been injured or
17 killed, would you have picked that up?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How can you say that if you cannot explain --
20 A. Because I would not have been involved in
21 anything like that, it would have been against me to do
22 anything like that.
23 Q. May I remind you, you are prepared to say in
24 your statement that you are certain that Damien Donaghy
25 was doing nothing sinister when you did not see him at
1 all?
2 A. That I could see, yes.
3 Q. You were prepared to say that about him. You
4 pick up a steak knife, small little steak knife from
5 Mr Wray. Again I ask you: why did you say that about
6 Mr Donaghy, why did you pick up anything from the
7 ground if it was not because of your understandable
8 concern to do everything possible to ensure that there
9 was no mistake as to whether or not they had been doing
10 anything wrong; can you think about that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What is the answer?
13 A. I just cannot recollect, I cannot understand
14 why I did not, or why I did lift the small knife and
15 even the stones, they were only pebbles, they were not
16 even stones, if you know what I mean, they were like
17 gravel.
18 Questioned by MR ELIAS
19 MR ELIAS: Mr McGee, in the days immediately
20 following Bloody Sunday, you were aware, were you, that
21 the Civil Rights Association were taking statements
22 from people who had been on the march?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you make a statement to them?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Was there any particular reason for that?
2 A. None.
3 Q. Did you discuss with anyone else whether you
4 would or would not make a statement?
5 A. Never.
6 Q. You did not discuss it with those with whom
7 you had been on the march?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Dr McClean or Michael McGuinness or any of
10 those?
11 A. Not that I recollect.
12 Q. Did you consciously decide that you were not
13 going to make a statement?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You just did not make one?
16 A. I just did not make one.
17 Questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN
18 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Mr McGee, could we look at
19 223.2 again, please, paragraph 10. You have been asked
20 about quite a lot of that, but the first sentence
21 I think has not been mentioned so far. It says this:
22 "I believe Jim Wray may have been alive when
23 I saw him, he may have moved his head."
24 Those are your words there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I appreciate that you put it in that way and
2 you also go on to say that you were dazed. That is
3 your recollection, that that may have been the
4 position?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Did you know a young man called Joseph Mahon?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Because we have heard that his was the third
9 body that was lying there, but he fortunately was not
10 killed and went away, was helped away?
11 A. (Witness shaking head).
12 Q. But you did not know him and you did not see
13 anyone being helped away at the time that you were
14 there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You are quite sure you only saw the two
17 bodies?
18 A. I only saw the two.
19 Q. As far as the people round the gable end were
20 concerned, you remember you said in answer to Mr Clarke
21 who asked you questions earlier --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- that there were people huddled round
24 there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. No soldiers with them at that stage at all?
2 A. I did not see any.
3 SIR ALLAN GREEN: Thank you very much.
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE
5 MR CLARKE: There was just one question
6 I meant to ask you and forgot to. You told me when
7 I was asking you questions earlier that you did not see
8 stone throwing at the time when Damien Donaghy fell,
9 but that you saw some later. You used the expression
10 "when I went across from the back of Mrs Shiels'
11 house". Could you explain to me when it was you saw
12 some stone throwing?
13 A. When I looked through to where they were
14 standing at the rubble at Rossville corner there, you
15 know at the --
16 Q. You looked through from where?
17 A. From where I was standing, I looked through
18 the gap and they were standing throwing stones down
19 Rossville Street then, at the barricade.
20 Q. Where were you at that stage?
21 A. Behind them to the -- behind them to the
22 left.
23 Q. Were you in Rossville Street or William
24 Street?
25 A. No, no.
1 Q. Where were you?
2 A. In Glenfada Park looking through.
3 Q. So when you were in Glenfada Park, that is
4 having come through and seen James Wray and William
5 McKinney?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What did you then see?
8 A. I looked through like this here and I seen
9 that there was stone throwing then at the rubble.
10 Q. Where were the stone throwers?
11 A. At the rubble.
12 Q. They were at the rubble barricade?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. What were they throwing stones at?
15 A. I could not see that part, I could only see
16 in through the gap, so they were throwing down
17 Rossville Street.
18 Q. When you say "down Rossville Street" is that
19 in the northerly direction?
20 A. In the direction of William Street.
21 Q. So there were people at that gable end and
22 some of them and there were people throwing stones in
23 a northerly direction?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 MR CLARKE: That is all I wanted to ask.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much,
2 Mr McGee.
3 (12.00 pm)
4 LORD SAVILLE: It is mid-day, who do we have
5 in fact next?
6 MR CLARKE: Jim Doherty, AD73.1.
7 LORD SAVILLE: I think we may as well stop
8 now until 10 to 1.
9 (The luncheon adjournment)
10 (12.52 pm)
11 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, Mr Clarke, who do we have
12 now?
13 MR CLARKE: We have Mr Doherty, AD73.1,
14 please.
15 MR DOHERTY, sworn
16 Questioned by MR CLARKE
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Doherty, if you look to
18 your right you will see who is talking to you. I am
19 trying to explain things because the loud speakers make
20 the noise come from a different place. However,
21 questions will come in the main from Counsel sitting in
22 front of me. All I would ask you to do at this stage
23 is try and keep your mouth fairly close to that
24 microphone so that everybody can hear what you have to
25 say.
1 MR CLARKE: Mr Doherty, do you have with you
2 your statement to this Inquiry signed by you on
3 18th July 1999?
4 A. I have.
5 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
6 the best of your knowledge and belief?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You describe in paragraph 3 walking towards
9 the barrier and seeing two or three soldiers in the
10 second floor of the derelict buildings above the sweet
11 shop known as McCool's. Could I have on the screen
12 P251. I think we can see McCool's; is that the shop
13 you are talking about?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were the soldiers in the window above the
16 words "newsagent"?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. If we go back to AD73.1, I think that, apart
19 from the fact that you saw those soldiers, there was
20 nothing particular that you noticed about them?
21 A. No, they were just standing up in that second
22 floor of the building.
23 Q. In the paragraph 5 of your statement, if we
24 look at that, you describe how, when people reached the
25 barricade, a lot of them tried to get through the
1 barrier to continue towards the Guildhall. How did
2 they try and do that?
3 A. Well, they tried to force their way through
4 just by pushing at the start, but, um, just an element
5 seemed to have lost the head then and started throwing
6 bricks and stuff like that, do you know.
7 Q. Were you there when the head of the march
8 actually got to the barricade?
9 A. Yes, I was about 15, 20 yards back.
10 Q. Did you see what happened at the very
11 beginning?
12 A. No, I did not have a clear picture, no,
13 I just seen pushing and shoving and that was all at the
14 start and then the missiles started flying after that.
15 Q. At that stage it was only bricks and stones
16 that were being thrown, is that right?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. You, if we go over to paragraph 6 on AD73.2,
19 you recall the use of the water cannon with dye and
20 that beat people back towards the junction of William
21 Street and Rossville Street; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you took cover in a shop doorway?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. You say just three lines up from the bottom
1 of this paragraph:
2 "After using the water cannon and the CS gas,
3 the army came through the barrier and I, along with
4 others, was forced back to Aggro Corner."
5 When you say "the army came through the
6 barrier"; you mean that literally, do you, that they
7 actually marched through or ran through?
8 A. When I made this statement, it was -- I was a
9 little bit nervous at the time of making it, I forgot
10 little things in it, but I would say maybe a wean of
11 minutes passed before that did happen.
12 Q. Because the sequence we have, broadly
13 speaking, from a number of other witnesses is that the
14 water cannon and the gas were used, that caused a whole
15 lot of people to go back towards Aggro Corner?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Some remained and continued to throw stones?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. And the soldiers came in quite a bit later,
20 is that right?
21 A. That would be right, yes, I would agree with
22 that, yes.
23 Q. If we go to paragraph 7, you describe there
24 waiting around Aggro Corner and seeing, towards the
25 north, soldiers lying on the flat roof of the GPO.
1 Were they doing anything at the time?
2 A. No, they just seemed to be watching and lying
3 there at that minute.
4 Q. If we go to paragraph 8 at the bottom, you
5 say that you stood there for about five to ten minutes;
6 were there a lot of people around at Aggro Corner at
7 that stage?
8 A. Judging, I would say maybe 50, 100 people at
9 that time, you know.
10 Q. What you say, is this:
11 "I saw two people who were standing directly
12 in front of me hit with live bullets".
13 If we go to your map at AD73.8, we can see
14 that the point where you describe yourself as being is
15 point C, that is just to the south of the corner?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the point where there was a boy in front
18 of you, who you now know was Damien Donaghy, is
19 point D?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. You did not, I think, did you, make a
22 statement at the time?
23 A. No.
24 Q. I wonder whether your recollection has gone
25 awry in relation to this. If I could have control of
1 this for a moment. Perhaps we could look at P199, that
2 might be easier. This is a photograph which is taken
3 looking in a southerly direction and the point, if
4 I could have control of the screen for a moment, that
5 you have indicated yourself to be on the map that you
6 have filled in is approximately where the blue arrow is
7 that I have just pointed out?
8 (Marked by blue arrow)
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We have had a lot of evidence from other
11 individuals that the place where Damien Donaghy was
12 shot, and also John Johnston, was not in the vicinity
13 of the blue arrow that I am pointing out there, but in
14 fact somewhere around the waste ground just to the
15 south of William Street, the first one that you get to
16 as you go up William Street towards Creggan Street?
17 A. I see that, yes.
18 Q. How happy are you in your recollection that
19 Damien Donaghy was shot at the corner of
20 Rossville Street?
21 A. Well, I thought I was very sure of that, do
22 you know. As I say 30 years have passed and I could
23 maybe have made a mistake, you know, in the two areas.
24 Q. This is not intended as a criticism and it
25 would not be surprising if memory is difficult. If we
1 go back to your statement at AD73.2, paragraph 8, at
2 the bottom, you describe there hearing two gunshots?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Did you only hear two?
5 A. I just heard two shots, yes.
6 (1.00 pm)
7 Q. Were you able to distinguish live bullets
8 from rubber bullets at the time?
9 A. Yes, there was nobody there nearby firing
10 rubber bullets at the time, that I could see, no.
11 Q. Did you hear any rubber bullets being fired
12 at the time?
13 A. I could hear rubber bullets, I could hear any
14 sound that was thereabouts, shouting and gunfire,
15 I probably heard rubber bullets, but I did not seem to
16 pay any attention to them at the time.
17 Q. If we look at your map at AD73.8, you
18 describe Damien Donaghy as having been standing at
19 point D. That would be slightly to your left, is that
20 right?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. You saw him fall to the ground holding his
23 right leg. Did you know Damien Donaghy at the time?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Had you seen him before he fell?
1 A. No.
2 Q. But you actually saw him fall, did you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was happening at this place in time;
5 what were people doing?
6 A. Just some people were throwing stones at
7 Little James Street, the army that was there and, um --
8 Q. Had you seen whether Damien Donaghy had been
9 one of those throwing stones?
10 A. No, I did not, no.
11 Q. There were people there who were?
12 A. Some people, yes, were throwing stones.
13 Q. Did you hear any bangs or explosions?
14 A. No, I did not, no.
15 Q. You describe in your evidence how you saw the
16 man you now know to be John Johnston shot?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I take it from that that you did not know
19 Mr Johnston at the time?
20 A. No, I did not, no.
21 Q. You describe him as standing at point E which
22 is to the right?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. Of Damien Donaghy?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I think your recollection is that he was
2 facing north?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had you seen him before he was shot?
5 A. I did not notice the people before the
6 shooting, no.
7 Q. What was the first that you saw of
8 Mr Johnston?
9 A. The first time I saw Mr Johnston was just
10 after Damien Donaghy was shot.
11 Q. What did you see when you first saw him; was
12 he stumbling, was he falling?
13 A. He was stumbling, he seemed to be stumbling
14 and people ran towards him.
15 Q. I know it is difficult, can you give us any
16 idea of the interval of time that you recall between
17 the moment when Damien Donaghy was shot and the moment
18 when John Johnston was shot?
19 A. I would say seconds maybe, that would be it,
20 do you know.
21 Q. As little as that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You assumed, as I understand it, that the
24 shots had come from the soldiers on the roof of the
25 General Post Office because that is the only place
1 where you had seen soldiers; is that right?
2 A. No, I seen them at the barricade in Little
3 James Street, but I assumed the firing was -- everybody
4 was saying the firing, and I assumed that that
5 direction where the noise of the gun fire, it seemed to
6 be coming from that direction.
7 Q. I see. You did not actually see any of them
8 shoot?
9 A. No, I did not see them firing, I seen the
10 troops on the flat roofs, but I did not see them
11 actually firing the guns, you know.
12 Q. If we go to AD73.4, paragraphs 13 and 14, you
13 describe how people gathered round the wounded men and
14 carried them off to Columbcille Court?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Did you go off in that direction?
17 A. I was behind the crowd that was carrying him,
18 yes.
19 Q. Did you go as far as the house in Columbcille
20 Court to which they went?
21 A. I followed them up to about 10 or so feet
22 outside, I guess.
23 Q. Did you stay outside the house when they were
24 taken in?
25 A. I would maybe have lingered there for a
1 minute or two, that would have been it, yes.
2 Q. So you saw cameramen trying to get in?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. And the residents would not let them in?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that one crew or more than one crew?
7 A. It could have been more than one crew, I just
8 did not pay any attention to whether there were one or
9 two.
10 Q. Putting it bluntly: were the camera crews
11 told to push off, go away?
12 A. Pardon?
13 Q. Were they told to push off or go away?
14 A. Yes, they were told to go away, yes.
15 Q. You say in your next paragraph that after the
16 two shots at Aggro Corner most of the crowd dispersed
17 and you then describe in the third line of this
18 paragraph how you waited at Aggro Corner for a further
19 five to fifteen minutes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I wonder if that is right. You followed the
22 two people who were being carried to
23 Columbcille Court. Did you go back to Aggro Corner?
24 A. Just around that area, yes.
25 Q. If we look at AD73.8, you took the route,
1 which you kindly indicated on the map, you think is
2 your approximate route, down the west side of
3 Kells Walk and into the northwest entrance to Glenfada
4 Park North?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. To, initially, I think the point at G, is
7 that right, just in the middle of the east side of
8 Glenfada Park North?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If we look at AD73.4, paragraph 15, you
11 describe being in the courtyard of Glenfada Park North
12 and hearing a lot of high velocity gunfire?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Could you distinguish between the gunfire of
15 high velocity and gunfire of low velocity?
16 A. Yes, well, I think I could. I always seemed
17 to think that .22, low velocity, seemed to be more of a
18 swish and high velocity more of a cracking, that is my
19 way of describing it.
20 Q. You say the shooting seemed to be coming from
21 all around and everyone was very scared?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was there, at this stage, any shooting within
24 Glenfada Park itself?
25 A. No, I was not there at the time of the
1 shootings in Glenfada Park.
2 Q. So when you were in Glenfada Park, you were
3 conscious of shooting apparently all around the park?
4 A. Yes, coming from William Street up towards
5 the flats and from the walls.
6 Q. You describe how you moved forwards and
7 backwards to the two exits from Glenfada Park North on
8 the north side and the south side and if we may go to
9 AD73.5, you describe at the top of the page looking out
10 of the alleyway at point "I", that is at the southeast
11 side of Glenfada Park North, seeing soldiers in gaps on
12 the Derry Walls?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "Looking at us through binoculars"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were they doing anything else other than just
17 looking at you?
18 A. No, at that time, no.
19 Q. Then when you glanced out at point H, which
20 is the northern end of Glenfada Park North, you saw
21 soldiers and a couple of Pigs, possibly as many as
22 five, pulling up on to the waste ground at Pilot Row
23 and Eden Place?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And just up before the rubble barricade?
1 A. (Witness nodding)
2 Q. I would like to show you a photograph, if
3 I may. Could we have EP28.5? This is a photograph
4 that has been taken from the Rossville Flats, so it is
5 from a different viewpoint, but it shows -- if I could
6 have control of this for a moment -- a number of
7 vehicles that have come down Rossville Street and they
8 are taking up a position in line -- they have not in
9 fact stopped some of them -- on Rossville Street
10 itself. You of course would have been looking out from
11 somewhere behind this block of flats in the photograph,
12 but do you recall seeing a convoy of vehicles take up a
13 position in a line like that?
14 A. My recollection -- I just seen the vehicles
15 coming down Rossville Street and from Glenfada Park
16 end, through the alleyway and that was that.
17 Q. You describe them as going up to -- pulling
18 up just before the rubble barricade. If we could have
19 a look at photograph P518, this is another photograph
20 taken by a press photographer of the vehicles. This is
21 actually taken from the car park of the Rossville
22 Flats?
23 A. That is correct, yes.
24 Q. This is after they have stopped. You can see
25 that the leading vehicle is approximately in line with
1 Kells Walk, the building which I am pointing out with a
2 yellow arrow.
3 (Marked by yellow arrow)
4 I wonder whether you may be mistaken in
5 thinking that they went all the way up to the rubble
6 barricade; do you think you may be wrong about that?
7 A. Well, at that time, at that moment I thought
8 they were -- one just off the barricades.
9 Q. If we go back to AD73.5, you describe in your
10 paragraph 15 the fact that it was total chaos. You
11 kept moving from point "H" to point "I" trying to
12 glance round and see what was going on, and you
13 describe standing close to point "I" when there was
14 apparently high velocity fire going on and seeing
15 bullets strike the south gable end of the flats.
16 You yourself saw the brickwork splintering at
17 point J. If we look at your map at AD73.8, you have
18 indicated there where point J is, it is at the very
19 south of the east block of Glenfada Park North.
20 I want to show you, if I may, a more detailed
21 photograph which was taken very recently. Could we
22 have F9.4? This is a photograph that was taken,
23 I think, last year. If I could have control. What it
24 shows is the east block of Glenfada Park North and the
25 south gable end, which I am pointing out with a yellow
1 arrow.
2 (Marked by yellow arrow)
3 If one looks very closely, what one can see
4 to this day is indentations in the brickwork of the
5 gable end. Is that the position where you saw
6 brickwork splintering?
7 A. At that time it was mayhem. Yes, I would say
8 around those positions, the brick was flying off the
9 gable end of the building, yes.
10 Q. That would accord with your recollection?
11 A. Well, I assumed at the time, yes, I think
12 that is what it was at that point there. As I say
13 there was panic at that time, we were running
14 everywhere.
15 (1.15 pm)
16 Q. As you say, if we go back to AD73.5,
17 paragraph 15:
18 "There was a lot of noise going on"; is that
19 right?
20 A. People shouting and noise of Pigs and that
21 general --
22 Q. But you were conscious of the brickwork
23 splintering at some point above your head?
24 A. Excuse me, I was at one point standing on the
25 southwest side, that is where I saw the brickwork
1 splintering.
2 Q. Wait a moment. Can we have --
3 A. As I say I was moving back and forth, but at
4 one time I was standing in the southwest corner next to
5 Fahan Street West and moving back and forth, that is
6 the time I saw the brickwork.
7 Q. Can we have AD73.8? When you say that you
8 were standing in the southwest when you saw the
9 brickwork, which point, using your lettering on the map
10 do you mean?
11 A. "K", if that is a K.
12 Q. Yes. Are you sure about that? Can we go
13 back to AD73.5? What your statement says, if you look
14 about halfway down, is this:
15 "There seemed to be high velocity fire going
16 on constantly, although I cannot remember exactly where
17 it was coming from. I was standing close to point "I"
18 when I saw bullets striking the south gable end of the
19 flats ...", which is the opposite corner?
20 A. Well, as I said, I was moving back and forth,
21 you know. It is 30 years since and, um, my memory
22 could be a little bit jogged, you know.
23 Q. Is this what it amounts to: it was either "K"
24 or "I", you appear --
25 A. Well, I did see it and, as I say, 30 years
1 have passed and ...
2 Q. You are not sure now where you were when you
3 saw it?
4 A. No, I did see it, but --
5 Q. As I understand it, you are not quite sure
6 where you were when you saw the splintering happening?
7 A. No, I could not be sure of where I was
8 standing at that minute. As I say, I was moving back
9 and forth.
10 Q. If we go to paragraph 16 at the bottom of the
11 page, you describe going back to hide in the garden at
12 point "G" and doing so with Gerard McKinney?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. You were with him for quite a while in the
15 park?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I know times are difficult, but can you give
18 us any indication of the sort of time you were there
19 with him?
20 A. I would say anything between, I would say --
21 it seemed five to fifteen minutes, you know.
22 Q. Do you recall approximately how many others
23 were in the car park at this time?
24 A. I would say there could be up to 50, maybe
25 100 people there at that time.
1 Q. What were they all doing?
2 A. They were just doing the same as myself,
3 trying to take cover and moving back and forth and
4 that.
5 Q. You describe how a young lad came up and told
6 you that there were people lying dead in front of the
7 barricade?
8 A. That is right.
9 Q. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At the top of the next page you say that, you
12 did not go and look at the barricade, but you told
13 Gerry that you were going to get out of there?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And you ran to the southwestern exit towards
16 Abbey Park?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know what Gerry McKinney did then?
19 A. I do not know. Gerry just was there in the
20 garden when I left him or just in the forecourt and
21 I ran for --
22 Q. That was the last that you saw him?
23 A. That was the last I saw him, yes.
24 Q. And as you went out towards the southwest
25 entrance, did others go as well or did you go alone?
1 A. There was other people there as well, by
2 I just myself going -- running along then when I left
3 the southwest corner of Glenfada Park.
4 Q. Did you see anybody wounded in Glenfada Park?
5 A. Pardon?
6 Q. Did you see anybody wounded in Glenfada Park?
7 A. No, I did not see any shooting at all in
8 Glenfada Park.
9 Q. You did not see any soldiers?
10 A. No, we just heard that soldiers were coming
11 in and that is when I decided to get out and run.
12 Q. You say that you heard that soldiers were
13 coming?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What happened, did somebody say that?
16 A. Just people shouting that the soldiers were
17 coming in the back from the cathedral, St Eugene's
18 Cathedral end of the Glenfada Park, coming in from the
19 northerly position.
20 Q. When you say "from the cathedral end", was
21 any distinction made between the northwest and the
22 northeast?
23 A. Yes, it would be more of a northeast,
24 I think, northwest -- northeast.
25 Q. Somebody said the soldiers were coming in
1 from that direction?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. You ran off?
4 A. Yes, well, I decided to move out then, yes.
5 Q. And you did not see anybody bringing a body
6 into the park or carrying one across the park?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. Those are all the questions
9 I wanted to ask.
10 Questioned by MR O'HANLON
11 MR O'HANLON: My name is Paddy O'Hanlon,
12 sir. I represent the Northern Ireland Civil Rights
13 Association. You indicated to the Tribunal that you
14 were some 15 to 20 yards behind the front of the march
15 when you arrived in the general area of barrier 14?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could I have photograph 373 up on the screen,
18 please? Mr Doherty, is that scene familiar to you?
19 A. It is, yes.
20 Q. Do you see anybody you recognise?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you indicate to the Tribunal -- I will
23 come back over this -- was that the situation when you
24 arrived or was that the emerging situation which
25 confronted you at the scene?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you have any idea -- it is 30 years
3 ago, it may be impossible to answer this question --
4 but between the to-ing and fro-ing, if I may describe
5 it, how long after you arrived at barrier 14 would that
6 have been the position as you recall it; it did not
7 happen immediately, sure it did not?
8 A. No, no, I would say anything from five to
9 fifteen minutes, you know, elapsed maybe, that is
10 assuming -- that is just a guess.
11 Q. If I may put it this way -- I do not wish at
12 any stage to put words in your mouth -- the situation,
13 that the crowd moved down into William Street. All the
14 march could not fit into William Street, is that not
15 correct?
16 A. All the march -- it was a pretty big march.
17 I could not say if the whole march would have fitted
18 into William Street, yes.
19 Q. There were a lot of people in William Street,
20 would that be fair?
21 A. That would be fair, yes.
22 Q. Are you saying to the Tribunal that people
23 got wedged into the mouth of the street as they appear
24 in this photograph?
25 A. People got wedged?
1 Q. Well, just crowded in?
2 A. Yes, some people were crowded in, some people
3 could move freely, or was not too crowded in, yes, but
4 it was a big crowd, yes.
5 Q. Do you see a number of men facing out towards
6 you in that photograph?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Do you recognise any of them?
9 A. Well, I think it looks like, the man that is
10 facing out looks like John Hume. Maybe it is not,
11 I cannot really make him --
12 Q. Do you know who those men were?
13 A. No, I cannot at this time, sorry.
14 Q. Do you recall any stewards at that barrier?
15 A. There was stewards, yes.
16 Q. It would be our case that they were
17 stewards. Do you recall if they were doing anything;
18 were they saying anything at that stage?
19 A. Yes, they were trying to prevent people from
20 being abusive and trying to force their way through,
21 but at the end it did not succeed, you know.
22 Q. In the context of that, when you say "trying
23 to force their way through", did you see anybody climb
24 over the barrier?
25 A. No, no.
1 Q. When you talk about them not being
2 successful, you are talking about your recollection of
3 what happened afterwards?
4 A. Yes, that is what I am saying afterwards, not
5 at that moment in time there; it was just pushing,
6 pushing and heaving and that was that.
7 Q. Were there some stones being thrown at that
8 stage?
9 A. No, not at the start, no.
10 Q. Have you any idea what was happening on the
11 march behind you, the march that was coming down
12 William Street?
13 A. The people were just -- kept on coming in
14 behind the rest of the march, the front of the march,
15 the people behind just kept on backing up into it.
16 Q. Could I have AD73.2 up on the screen,
17 please? You indicate at paragraph 6 there that after
18 the brick and stone throwing had commenced, the army
19 started the water cannon. The water had dye in it.
20 The army also used CS gas?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That remains your recollection of the
23 situation as it confronted you?
24 A. Yes, that would be, as I say, could be
25 anything from fifteen to twenty minutes after they
1 tried to negotiate their way through the barricade and
2 people started losing their head, and then the army
3 retaliated with ...
4 Q. While you were at the scene did the stewards
5 attempt to move the crowd backwards?
6 A. Yes, I can mind men trying to tell them to
7 keep their heads and stop trying to push their way
8 through, yes.
9 Q. The question I ask just for the sake of
10 accuracy is: did the stewards attempt to move people
11 away from the barricades?
12 A. They were trying to get them to go back, yes.
13 Q. Your best guess -- I understand that this is
14 a long time ago and time passes and at the time it was
15 quite a fraught situation -- do you recall how long
16 after you arrived at barrier 14 that the water cannon
17 came in?
18 A. As I say, the time that I am giving, it could
19 be longer or it could be shorter, I am just saying it
20 felt to me at that time would be anything between
21 fifteen/twenty minutes.
22 Q. But you cannot be sure?
23 A. I would not be sure.
24 Q. Could I refer you to paragraph 7 in your
25 statement, where you indicate at the beginning of it:
1 "I, together with a lot of other people,
2 although I cannot remember how many, waited around
3 Aggro Corner."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "I was standing at the point marked 'C', grid
6 reference MO9. I could see that a lot of the marchers
7 had gone south down Rossville Street to meet up at Free
8 Derry Corner."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What proportion of the march had passed you
11 at this stage?
12 A. I would say at that point everybody was
13 scattered all over the place; I would say maybe one
14 quarter of the march maybe.
15 Q. To half? Quarter of the march. Sorry, it is
16 not my business to put words in your mouth.
17 While that was happening, while you were at
18 what is called "Aggro Corner" -- which I am sure are
19 the words of somebody else and not your words, but it
20 may well be the way you described the area -- while you
21 were there, can you remember how long you were at that
22 location?
23 A. As I say again, I put it down to about
24 between five to fifteen/twenty minutes.
25 Q. While you were there, what was happening in
1 William Street?
2 A. There were some people throwing stones and
3 that at the army in Little James Street and maybe
4 throwing stones down Rossville Street.
5 Q. How many were in William Street; could you
6 see William Street in front of you as you stood at
7 Aggro Corner?
8 A. I could see William Street, yes, I could not
9 see many people. Truthfully, I could not say how many
10 people were in William Street but there were between 50
11 to 100 people milling about around the corner at that
12 time.
13 Q. Was the water cannon used again at that
14 stage?
15 A. I honestly cannot remember.
16 Q. In paragraph 8 you say:
17 "I had been standing at Aggro Corner for
18 about five to ten minutes since moving back from the
19 barrier at William Street when I heard two gunshots."
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That is your best recollection?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. Somewhere between five to ten minutes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So the sequence of events is, if I may, and
1 correct me if I am wrong in anything I say: there was
2 what I would describe as a type
3 of "stand-off" initially at barrier 14, in other
4 words, you have stewards, you have a crowd, there is a
5 great deal of confusion and uncertainty?
6 A. Yes, a lot of confusion was happening --
7 Q. At some stage the water cannon was used in
8 the circumstance when some stones are thrown?
9 A. I recollect CS gas being fired, but I just
10 cannot mind the water cannon.
11 Q. You then moved back to what is called --
12 sorry, did you say you do not remember the water
13 cannon?
14 A. I just cannot mind the water cannon at that
15 stage at Aggro Corner, you know.
16 Q. Not at Aggro Corner, this is at barrier 14.
17 My apologies, I may be confusing you. At barrier 14
18 you have a crowd, stewards, as you have indicated to
19 the Tribunal, and at some stage while you were at
20 barrier 14, a water cannon was used?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And CS gas is used?
23 A. After that I would say, yes, it was used, but
24 I just cannot say the exact time it was used.
25 Q. You moved back to Aggro Corner?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And correct me if I am wrong: you indicate
3 that somewhere between five and fifteen minutes or five
4 and twenty minutes you are at Aggro Corner and you hear
5 two gunshots?
6 A. (Witness nodding) While I was there there
7 were two gunshots and the two men were shot, yes.
8 Q. That is your recollection of events?
9 A. That is right.
10 Questioned by MR LAWSON
11 MR LAWSON: Mr Doherty, could we have on the
12 screen, please, AD73.1, the first page of your
13 statement? It is the top half of the page, please, the
14 first couple of paragraphs.
15 Mr Doherty, you indicated -- certainly in
16 general terms you have qualified one or two pieces,
17 I am not going to make any criticism of you in relation
18 to that -- that you adopt in effect and confirm the
19 accuracy of this statement, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you help about this, please: who prepared
22 the statement, I do not mean the individual, the name
23 of the individual, it obviously was not typed out by
24 you; was this prepared by the Inquiry's solicitors or
25 yours?
1 A. No, I was brought to the Guildhall here and
2 it was --
3 Q. It was done here?
4 A. Yes.
5 (1.30 pm)
6 Q. You were obviously interviewed, the statement
7 was then prepared and you satisfied yourself that it
8 was accurate?
9 A. Yes, as accurate as I could make it.
10 Q. Of course. Can we look at the second
11 paragraph of this statement, where you refer, do you
12 not, to going into William Street, yes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then you say, "I crossed over
15 Aggro Corner"; what do you mean by "Aggro Corner",
16 Mr Doherty?
17 A. Well, Aggro Corner was put to me when I come
18 to make the statement. I never knew it as
19 Aggro Corner.
20 Q. You what?
21 A. I never knew it as Aggro Corner.
22 Q. You never knew it as Aggro Corner?
23 A. No, that was put in the statement, that they
24 called it Aggro Corner, and that is what was given to
25 me at the time.
1 Q. Time and time and time again in the statement
2 there is reference to "Aggro Corner"?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. And you say that was not your description,
5 but a description --
6 A. It was my -- yes, they called it Aggro Corner
7 in the description of it --
8 Q. Who is "they"?
9 A. -- but as I say, I always called it the
10 corner of William Street and Rossville Street, but it
11 was known as Aggro Corner because of stone-throwing and
12 that. I do not ...
13 Q. Who knew it as Aggro Corner?
14 A. As I say, that is just the name it was given
15 at the time, you know, Aggro Corner. As I say,
16 I honestly do not know.
17 Q. Forgive me, you have said "it was known as
18 Aggro Corner"; is it the position that it was known
19 generally in the community as Aggro Corner?
20 A. It was known generally in the community
21 because of the rioting -- that had a lot of rioting
22 that happened there -- as I say, but I always knew it
23 as the corner of Rossville Street and William Street,
24 but I put Aggro Corner in the statement at the time.
25 Q. Did people generally in the community talk of
1 it as Aggro Corner?
2 A. I cannot remember whether they called it
3 Aggro Corner or not, I just cannot mind, but I just
4 must have put it in the statement at that time. People
5 did call it -- maybe they did call it that or maybe
6 they did not.
7 Q. Has anybody, Mr Doherty, by any chance
8 suggested to you that there is some sensitivity about
9 the name Aggro Corner in the last day or two?
10 A. No.
11 Q. No? You know exactly what is meant by
12 Aggro Corner?
13 A. I know what is meant by it, yes.
14 Q. You know that was a description that was
15 widely used by members of the local community, do you
16 not?
17 A. If they called it that, yes.
18 Q. You were not, as you have told us, yourself
19 involved in the rioting that day?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But you were close to the riot that went on
22 near barrier 14, as we know it to be?
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. In your statement, if we look at the top of
25 page 2, please, paragraph 6 -- this is simply to remind
1 you -- in that part of your statement you referred, did
2 you not, to taking cover in a shop doorway, yes?
3 A. That is correct, yes.
4 Q. In William Street -- and you have marked
5 that -- if we can look at the plan, please, at page 8,
6 AD73.8, you have marked that with the letter "B", is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you see on the right-hand side -- if you
10 would like to have it expanded I am sure that can be
11 done -- can you see where Chamberlain Street runs into
12 William Street?
13 A. I can see that, yes.
14 Q. You see the letter "B"?
15 A. I see it, yes.
16 Q. That, according to your statement, is the
17 position of the shop in the doorway of which you took
18 shelter; is that right, do you think?
19 A. No, I think it is the wrong side of the road
20 from that.
21 Q. You think you were on the other side of
22 William Street, do you?
23 A. I do not think, I know I was on the other
24 side of the street.
25 Q. Is that something that was suggested to you,
1 or is that just a mistake?
2 A. That is a mistake.
3 Q. A mistake?
4 A. I was on the opposite side.
5 Q. So, what, facing towards Chamberlain Street?
6 A. Yes, uh-huh.
7 Q. Let us see if you are sure of this -- if we
8 look on the screen, please, at EP5.14. That is a
9 photograph, as I understand it -- I will be corrected
10 if I am wrong -- taken from behind barrier 14 and
11 looking towards the junction of Chamberlain Street and
12 William Street?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You recognise, no doubt, Chamberlain Street?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. The mouth of which there is a large number of
17 young men standing?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. In fact you were standing, were you, more or
20 less opposite where that crowd was?
21 A. I was at the other side of the road, yes.
22 I was not standing where that suggested that I was
23 standing.
24 Q. Was that the sort of scene that you saw,
25 then?
1 A. Yes, it was something similar to that maybe,
2 yes.
3 Q. Let me move on, then. In due course you went
4 away from Aggro Corner, yes, as your statement records?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were, as you recall, fairly clearly,
7 despite it being pointed out to you others have said
8 differently, you were, you think, standing on the
9 corner of William Street and Rossville Street when you
10 saw the two people shot?
11 A. I was, yes.
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. On the waste ground there, yes.
14 Q. You said you heard two shots. There was a
15 lot of commotion going on at the time, was there not?
16 A. There was, yes.
17 Q. So there were at least two shots?
18 A. At least two shots; I heard two shots.
19 Q. But there could have been more?
20 A. There could have been more, but I heard those
21 two shots, yes.
22 Q. If we look at your map again on page 8, if we
23 expand the area around the "D","E" and "C". You there
24 marked, did you not, that "D" is showing the position
25 where young Master Donaghy was, yes?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the "E" as the position where Mr Johnston
3 was?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When each of them was shot?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And, as you confirmed to us, there is no
8 doubt about this, you had not actually even been aware
9 of their presence, I think, before they were shot?
10 A. Pardon?
11 Q. You had not seen them before they were shot?
12 A. No, that is correct, I did not know the
13 people at all, no.
14 Q. So what either of them was doing immediately
15 before he was shot is something you cannot assist us
16 with?
17 A. I cannot, no.
18 Q. Clearly on your description, whether you have
19 got it in exactly the right place or not, Mr Johnston
20 was standing more or less immediately or diagonally
21 behind Mr Donaghy?
22 A. No, he was not standing behind him at all, he
23 was standing to the right of him.
24 Q. You thought the shooting was coming from
25 diagonally to your left across William Street?
1 A. I thought the shooting was coming straight
2 across from the GPO, in that direction.
3 Q. We can do it ourselves. If you draw a line
4 between "E", "D", and the GPO roof, if that is the line
5 of fire we are looking at, then Mr Johnston was behind
6 Mr Donaghy?
7 A. Well, you have it on "D" and "E" there, but
8 as I say they were standing left to right of one
9 another.
10 Q. They were shot, were they not, on your
11 account of events, at more or less if not exactly the
12 same time?
13 A. Excuse me one minute, when I put "D" and "E",
14 it is not 100 per cent where they marked that.
15 30 years have passed; they could have been standing
16 left to right of one another, equally in the same
17 position, not one another behind, as you have stressed
18 there a minute ago, behind one another. They could
19 have been standing equally together, but apart from one
20 another, I mean, directly opposite one another, not the
21 way "D" and "E" is there. They could have been level
22 as I mean. The way you have put it to me, as if they
23 were standing behind one another where the shots were
24 fired but, as I say, I marked those as near as
25 I could mark them where I seen the people at the time.
1 Q. Is there anything else you want to add to
2 that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All I am seeking to do is to ask you some
5 questions based upon the descriptions you gave in the
6 statement that you made for the assistance of this
7 Inquiry in July 1999, when I have little doubt but that
8 you were doing your very best to be accurate and to
9 tell the truth; is that right?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. As you recalled it at the time, the
12 respective positions of those two people, Mr Donaghy
13 and Mr Johnston, were as you marked it on the map, yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Otherwise you would not have marked it on the
16 map in that way, would you?
17 A. I marked it on the map, but as I say,
18 30 years have passed; that does not mean to say that I
19 could have -- them two people could have been, as
20 I have said, level with one another -- put it on the
21 map, maybe you can have your say on that.
22 Q. I am not going to pursue that further with
23 you. Do you agree they were shot at effectively the
24 same time?
25 A. I would say seconds passed between the both
1 of them, yes.
2 Q. Was it not more or less simultaneous: one
3 fell, the other fell?
4 A. One was hit, the other was hit. Yes, it
5 could have been, as I say, with the confusion and that,
6 it was seconds.
7 Q. There certainly was not a substantial
8 interval between one being shot and the other?
9 A. No, there was not a long interval, no.
10 Q. You simply do not know what either of those
11 people was doing before he was shot because you had not
12 seen them as you have told us, correct?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. There was stone throwing going on at about
15 that time, was there not?
16 A. There was, yes, but I did not see those
17 people throwing stones at the time. I did not notice
18 them throwing any stones.
19 Q. Because you had not noticed them?
20 A. I did not notice them, no.
21 Q. That is your honest and true recollection?
22 A. That is my honest and true recollection, yes.
23 Q. So as to confirm the position, if we have on
24 the screen AD73.3, please, paragraph 11. Can we see
25 how this would require amending now in the light of the
1 evidence you have given to us? You say in that
2 paragraph:
3 "I was standing directly behind both men
4 when I saw them shot."
5 That is your recollection now, is it not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. "At the time they were shot, both men were
8 simply standing and looking across towards Little James
9 Street." Yes?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "They were not doing anything or holding
12 anything"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Because you have told us whether they were
15 doing anything or not, you cannot not help with because
16 you had not seen them?
17 A. What I am actually saying there is, while the
18 shots rang out it took you right away to those two
19 people that were shot and as I was looking and standing
20 and watching before that, I could not see, in that
21 direction, anybody throwing missiles or anything like
22 that.
23 Q. At the moment they were shot they were not
24 doing anything?
25 A. No, they were not doing anything, no.
1 Q. When you said there was no stone throwing
2 going on at that time, was that just a mistake?
3 A. If you recollect, I said there was stone
4 throwing at certain intervals.
5 Q. I asked you a few seconds ago if there was
6 stone throwing going on then and you confirmed, as you
7 have said in answer to Mr Clarke earlier, that there
8 was?
9 A. That is why I said it. There was stone
10 throwing at times and at times it ceased, and at times
11 it started up again, yes.
12 Q. You went, in due course you have told us,
13 away from that area and round the back of Kells Walk?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Is that right, and then made your way down
16 into Glenfada Park North?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You and a number of people were heading down
19 that way, were you, or were you by yourself?
20 A. I was by myself, but there was a number of
21 people heading in the same direction.
22 Q. How old were you at the time, Mr Doherty?
23 A. Pardon?
24 Q. How old were you in January 1972?
25 A. I was 27/28.
1 Q. Did you know someone called Eugene
2 McGillion(?)?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You did not know him at all?
5 A. No.
6 Q. The name rings no bells with you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You made your way, then, into Glenfada Park
9 North, as again you have told us. I am not going to go
10 over the old ground. You got what might be described,
11 I suppose, as the odd fleeting glimpse of what was
12 going on in Rossville Street by going and looking out
13 of the north alleyway?
14 A. Yes, going back and forth and having a little
15 glimpse out at times, yes.
16 Q. We do not need to look at the photographs,
17 but there is now, I think, a narrow alleyway, an
18 entrance out into Rossville Street. You were shown
19 some photographs of Saracens and the like and where
20 they were et cetera. Of course you would have just
21 seen them go by, no more than that?
22 A. Just about, yes.
23 Q. You would get a glimpse of them and a glimpse
24 of the soldiers as they ran by; is that right?
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. You did not actually see anybody shooting,
2 did you?
3 A. No, I did not see anybody -- I heard the
4 gunfire, but I did not see anybody shooting.
5 Q. Doing your best, I presume, you estimated
6 that you spent perhaps 20 to 30 minutes in Glenfada
7 Park North before you left?
8 A. Well, that seemed to be the time I spent
9 there, yes.
10 Q. Estimating time precisely is of course
11 different, but you spent quite a long time there?
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. And you saw no soldiers in Glenfada Park
14 North?
15 A. I did not see soldiers in Glenfada Park, no.
16 I seen the soldiers coming up Rossville Street and over
17 the waste ground. I did not see any soldiers in
18 Glenfada Park.
19 Q. And you saw nobody shot in Glenfada Park?
20 A. I did not see anybody shot in Glenfada Park.
21 (1.45 pm)
22 Q. Finally, could I ask you about this, please,
23 the question of the bullet or bullets hitting the
24 brickwork above you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. About which Mr Clarke asked you some
2 questions. Could we look on the screens, please, at
3 the virtual reality model and hotspot 14? Could you
4 spin it round, please, until we get to the gable wall?
5 Unfortunately, apart from the painting on the wall this
6 part of Glenfada Park North is much the same as it was
7 back in 1972, you would agree, would you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This is a convenient picture perhaps to look
10 at. We are looking at, as you will recall it, the
11 south gable end wall?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That is the wall, is it not, where you were
14 aware of bullets striking above your head?
15 A. That is correct, yes.
16 Q. Do I understand this correctly, that you had
17 been hiding or ducking in and out of one of the gardens
18 on the back of the east wing of Glenfada Park North,
19 yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Straight ahead as we look up the pavement
22 there, and you came down occasionally to see what was
23 happening to more or less where that red car is?
24 A. I did not go out that far, I just seemed to
25 be round the corner from that, but where I could see
1 the brickwork splintering at times from it.
2 Q. Just to the very corner?
3 A. Not right on the corner, just 10, 15 feet
4 back from the corner.
5 Q. Ten feet back from the gable end wall?
6 A. That is correct, yes.
7 Q. I wonder can you help us about this: I think
8 it is possible technically, is it not, if the picture
9 we have on the screen is saved for you then to mark, if
10 you can assist us, the area where you think the bullets
11 hit the wall; do you think you could do that for me?
12 A. I do not think I could do that after this
13 time. It just seemed to be hitting parts of the
14 gable. I do not think I could really pinpoint exactly
15 where the bullets were hitting.
16 Q. You see, what you were shown by Mr Clarke,
17 the photograph which we can look at again in a moment
18 if you like, was, as I understand as we look at this
19 photograph, on the right-hand corner of the gable end?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In fact just round the corner on the
22 Rossville Street side?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That was not where the brickwork was flying
25 when you saw it, was it?
1 A. I could not see that end.
2 Q. You would not be able to see it, would you,
3 because you were tucked up behind the block a little
4 bit?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. That cannot have been it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you give us a very rough approximation by
9 pointing on the screen to where you think these bullets
10 hit?
11 A. These bullets could have been from 8 foot
12 above head height up to top of the gable, for all
13 I would know. I could see brickwork splintering all
14 over the place.
15 Q. So it is on the left-hand side as we are
16 looking at the photograph, yes; is that correct?
17 A. Anywhere there to here, yes. As I say, I was
18 trying to protect myself at the time and I could see
19 the brickwork flying.
20 Q. Do you think you could just mark -- if the
21 colour could be -- is he able to do that now?
22 A. I just honestly cannot mark it, no, I could
23 not.
24 Q. You just showed us once, but unfortunately
25 the thing was not switched on. You said first there
1 were some bullets about 8 feet above your head; roughly
2 in what area?
3 A. I would say coming from this area here and
4 all coming down.
5 Q. Could you either touch the screen with your
6 finger or use a stylus, the end where the bullets were?
7 A. About there, there, round there.
8 (Indicating)
9 Q. So those are the approximate, allowing for
10 the passage of time --
11 A. Well, that is -- I could see brickwork
12 flying. I am just telling you that is my recollection,
13 yes.
14 Q. That is your recollection of where
15 approximately the building was hit, yes. Sir,
16 I wonder, then, if that could be preserved as, I think,
17 AD73.9, please?
18 Questioned by MR ELIAS
19 MR ELIAS: Mr Doherty, just on the last
20 matter that you were questioned about, I think you said
21 two or three times, or maybe more, you were just aware
22 of bits of brick flying?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That is what you were aware of, was it, bits
25 of brick flying in the air --
1 A. I could hear gunshots and the brick.
2 Q. And the bits of brick were falling to the
3 south side of that gable end where roughly you were
4 standing?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. A little later, as you have told the Tribunal
7 earlier, you went to Lisfannon Park and from there to
8 Stanley's Walk?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Stanley's Walk, close to the gasworks?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you aware of any activity at this time
13 at the gasworks, any men congregating there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you aware of any shots being fired to or
16 from the vicinity of the gasworks or the cemetery
17 adjoining it?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You heard no shots in that area?
20 A. No shots at all, no.
21 Q. You lived in Derry at this time, did you?
22 A. I did, yes.
23 Q. You were aware, then, following this day of
24 the Civil Rights Association taking statements from
25 those who had been on the march?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you make a statement?
3 A. At that time, no.
4 Q. Was there any reason for that?
5 A. Yes, I thought it would have been a white
6 wash anyway so I did not go at the time.
7 Q. You thought it would be a "white wash"?
8 A. Yes, for every country the British went into
9 in the last 700 years was white-washed, that was my
10 belief at that time.
11 Q. Did you understand when you were making that
12 decision, did you understand why the statements were
13 being sought by the Civil Rights Association, for what
14 purpose?
15 A. For what purpose, for proof of what happened
16 on that day, but, as I say, I did not think they would
17 get justice at the time.
18 Q. So you decided not to?
19 A. Yes.
20 SIR ALLAN GREEN: I have no questions, thank
21 you.
22 MR CLARKE: I have no further questions.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you very much indeed for
24 your assistance.
25 MR CLARKE: Mrs McDaid now.
1 (1.55 pm)
2 MRS MONICA MCDAID, affirmed
3 Questioned by MR CLARKE
4 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs McDaid, if you look to
5 your right, you will see who is talking to you, which
6 is me here, the Chairman of the Tribunal. Counsel will
7 be asking you questions. They are the people sitting
8 in front of me. All I would ask you to do is to keep
9 your mouth fairly close to that microphone so that
10 everybody can hear what you say.
11 MR CLARKE: Could we have on the screen
12 AM170.1? Mrs McDaid, do you have with you --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- your statement signed on 3rd March of last
15 year; it is at the very end?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
18 the best of your knowledge and belief?
19 A. To the best of my knowledge. There is only
20 one thing here, number 7.
21 Q. Yes, could we have 170.2 on the screen, yes?
22 A. Yes, now, he was at the point marked "D" on
23 the attached map. They have down "he was leaning
24 against the gable", he was at the gable "of the
25 derelict building next to him". It says there "he kept
1 looking out on to William Street", "he looked on to
2 William Street", it was not he kept looking on to
3 William Street because I was getting over the effects
4 of CS gas, he looked out to William Street and it says
5 there "by putting his head round the corner of the
6 derelict building, I did not see ...", he looked on to
7 William Street, but there it says "by putting his head
8 round the corner of the derelict building, cannot
9 recall seeing anything there", that part there, that is
10 misty to me. He looked on to William Street. I did
11 not see anything in his hand or see him throw
12 anything. That is it.
13 Down in number 11, right?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. For Mr Johnston, I think, no, I am sure we
16 were facing William Street. That "think" would be a
17 saying in Derry "I think", but we were both facing
18 William Street. I think that is it.
19 Q. Happy with it now?
20 A. I am.
21 Q. Could we go back to the beginning of your
22 statement at AM170.1? You describe what happened at
23 about 1.00 pm?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you saw soldiers erecting a barrier at
1 the end of Helen Street which had the effect of closing
2 the street off. Could we have on the screen Q3? I am
3 trying to identify for the Tribunal where Helen Street
4 is.
5 A. It is up Rosemount Hill.
6 Q. I know where it is. I wanted you to identify
7 it when we have it on the map. Could we have Q3? If
8 I could have control of this for a moment.
9 A. There it is.
10 Q. Found it. I think it is there, is it not?
11 A. That is it there, aye. It is a dead end
12 street. They were putting up a barrier at the end
13 where it goes into Creggan Road. You see the soldiers
14 were stationed up in the Rosemount, Rosemount barracks
15 at the top of our hill. Do you see where "D" is there,
16 Creggan R-D, road, do you see down there? See down
17 Marlborough Road, well, I live -- I live round there on
18 the main road.
19 Q. What was your address at the time?
20 A. 55 Creggan Road.
21 Q. Anyway you saw --
22 A. My two youngest boys, they were up playing
23 with their friends up Helen Street. Now the youngest
24 was only 3 -- 2 and a half/3 and the other wee boy was
25 five or six and I brought them down into the house with
1 the other sister and brother. They were staying in the
2 house while I was out at the march.
3 Q. Whilst we have this map on the screen, I see
4 that above the two Gs in Creggan Road it says "RUC
5 station"; is that the Rosemount RUC station?
6 A. Yes, that is where the soldiers were
7 stationed. Now I was used looking at soldiers because
8 they were always passing the front door. I did not pay
9 any heed to them, just ...
10 Q. I wonder if we could go back to AM170.1,
11 paragraphs 4 and 5 of your statement. You describe in
12 your statement going on the march and in paragraph 4
13 you describe turning into William Street?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Noticing two or three soldiers in the
16 derelict buildings along the left hand side of William
17 Street?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And you identify where the buildings were and
20 say that they were looking onto and directly facing
21 William Street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If we look at AM170.6, you will find your map
24 which will show us where point "A" is. What you have
25 identified is a building at the corner of William
1 Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what used to be Richardson's factory; is
4 that right?
5 A. Aye, it is away now, it was away.
6 Q. It was not there at the time, but that is
7 where Richardson's once had been?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you say that "they were looking out and
10 directly facing William Street" --
11 A. This is when the march was passing. Now I am
12 walking down. My husband is on the right-hand side.
13 He noticed them first and he drew my attention to them
14 and I looked and seen then, but I was not all that
15 concerned because I was always used at looking at
16 soldiers passing our front door.
17 Q. Can we have a look at P210 --
18 LORD SAVILLE: Are you sure it is not 201
19 that you want?
20 MR CLARKE: I am. 209 is what I am looking
21 for. If I can just show you where we are: this is an
22 aerial photograph; that is the GPO roof; that is the
23 back of the Presbyterian Church; do you follow me?
24 A. Aye, aye.
25 Q. And the wasteland where Richardson's used to
1 be is where I am pointing?
2 A. Right, aye.
3 Q. And William Street is running along?
4 A. There.
5 Q. In that direction?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. You can see that the building on the corner
8 of the wasteland where Richardson's used to be and
9 William Street is the one I have just marked in white.
10 (Marked by white arrow)
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you saw the soldiers, did you see them
13 where I am pointing an arrow in blue or where I am
14 pointing an arrow in yellow.
15 (Marked by blue and yellow arrows)
16 A. In the front, in the blue.
17 Q. The blue arrow?
18 A. The blue.
19 Q. Facing south on to William Street itself?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see any soldiers on the wall that
22 faces to the east where my yellow arrow is?
23 A. No, I was not, no. I was not looking there,
24 no.
25 Q. You describe in your statement how you
1 stopped at point B, which is at the junction between
2 William Street, Little James Street and
3 Rossville Street?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If we could go back to AM170.1, paragraphs 5
6 and 6; you say that you stopped because the crowd in
7 front of you had stopped?
8 A. There was confusion. There was a lot of --
9 the air was thick with CS gas and it went for my eyes,
10 my nose and my chest and at that point we turned back.
11 Now there was a lot of confusion and
12 I remember seeing a man, his clothes was all wet so
13 I assumed that there was a water cannon or a dye cannon
14 in the area. I never was in a position like that
15 before.
16 Q. Had you been on a march before?
17 A. I probably was on marches before, aye.
18 Q. Because of the CS gas you walked back along
19 William Street?
20 A. William Street.
21 Q. And you got to a point that you describe in
22 your statement at the top of AM170.2 as point "C". You
23 say there that you were wondering what was happening
24 with the march:
25 "The intention had been to march to the
1 Guildhall and if we did not manage to get through to
2 the Guildhall, then we knew we should make our way to
3 Free Derry Corner."
4 How did you know that?
5 A. I do not know how we knew that. I think we
6 thought we were going to the Guildhall that day.
7 Q. You expected to get to the Guildhall, did
8 you?
9 A. Aye, we did.
10 Q. If we look at paragraph 7, you describe how
11 -- I will use the description with the amendments that
12 you made a moment ago -- there were about 14 to 18
13 people on the waste ground?
14 A. Now there was relatively few people in that
15 waste ground and they were all adults except for the
16 one boy and there was no rioting. I would not have
17 been there if there had have been rioting.
18 Q. You say in the next sentence:
19 "My husband was next to me and the four men
20 were about twelve feet behind us"; who were these four
21 men?
22 A. Just men that probably met on the march,
23 maybe might have been with each other; they were
24 standing talking. Now you must remember I was trying
25 to get over the effects of CS gas.
1 Q. If we then look at paragraphs -- can we have
2 paragraphs 7 to 9 together, please. You describe
3 seeing the boy at the point that you have marked "D" on
4 your map?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At the gable end?
7 A. Aye, aye.
8 Q. Was there anybody with him?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was he one of the 14 to 18?
11 A. No, I was not including him in. He was the
12 young one -- no, as far as I can remember he was on his
13 own.
14 Q. And the other people, the 14 to 18, what were
15 they doing?
16 A. You see, in that opening we were sort of in
17 the middle of it near -- looking out on to William
18 Street, we were nearer the left-hand side gable of the
19 Nook Bar.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. And I -- my husband was on my left-hand
22 side. So, right, there was a shot and I seen the young
23 fella going to retrieve the rubber bullet. Now at that
24 time it would have been a great souvenir, but then,
25 I think immediately, there was another shot and he
1 stumbled. Well, at that point I turned to my husband
2 and I said "another rubber bullet" and he said to me
3 "no, its lead" because he seen blood on the young
4 fella's leg, but I did not see it because I was just --
5 was not actually taking him in. I was sort of
6 wondering what was happening. It was unbelievable.
7 Q. Can I concentrate on what you saw? You heard
8 the first rubber bullet?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you saw the young boy go to pick up the
11 rubber bullet?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you see him again after you saw him
14 stumble?
15 A. Let me think now. (Pause)
16 No, my mind, I must have turned, I must have
17 turned away at that time.
18 Q. When you turned back, is this the position
19 you saw him stumble?
20 A. When I turned back there was, there was,
21 I think it was three or four men was helping him.
22 Q. After you had seen him go to get the rubber
23 bullet is the next thing that you saw of him seeing a
24 number of men trying to help him after he had stumbled?
25 A. Aye, they took him away.
1 Q. Yes, have I got the sequence right: you see
2 him go to get the bullet and the next thing you see of
3 him --
4 A. The next thing there is a shot, there is a
5 shot and I thought it was another rubber bullet, but my
6 husband said to me "no", he said, "it's lead".
7 Q. You then turned and looked, did you?
8 A. Maybe I did, like, you know, I probably got
9 jittery.
10 Q. Was the next thing that you saw somebody
11 helping this boy?
12 A. Aye.
13 (2.15 pm)
14 Q. If we could have 10 and 11: you describe in
15 paragraph 10 what you have just been telling us about
16 the boy, then in paragraph 11 you say at the time that
17 the young fellow was shot Mr Johnston was standing to
18 your right about ten feet away from you?
19 A. Away from me, yes.
20 Q. Did you know Mr Johnston at the time?
21 A. I did not know Mr Johnston to speak to, but
22 I knew he was Mr Johnston because he worked, as far as
23 I know, in a drapery shop.
24 Q. Can we go to the bottom of the page at
25 paragraph 13? You say about three minutes after the
1 young lad was shot you heard two more shots which you
2 assumed came from the flat roof next to the church
3 because that is where you had seen soldiers?
4 A. Aye.
5 Q. Can you help us about the interval of time --
6 A. That is the thing: was it three minutes; was
7 it five minutes? If I am standing there, you know,
8 that is the thing: was it three minutes or was it five
9 minutes?
10 Q. I have a slightly different question: was it
11 three minutes or was it three seconds? The Tribunal
12 has heard different evidence. Some people recollect
13 that the shot that hit Mr Johnston came very, very soon
14 indeed?
15 A. Very soon.
16 Q. Some recollect that it is longer. What you
17 have put in your statement is three minutes. Is that
18 what you mean; that is your estimate, is it?
19 A. Was it three minutes, let me see.
20 Q. I do not mean exactly. Are we talking about
21 a couple of minutes or a couple of seconds?
22 A. I think it was very near the time that the
23 young fella was shot, so it was.
24 Q. You think it was a pretty short interval?
25 A. A short interval, that is what it was, a
1 short interval.
2 Q. Could we just look at the bottom of the
3 page? You say that you heard the two more shots; you
4 were not looking in the direction of the church when
5 you heard them and then you say this:
6 "Mr Johnston started [we can go to the top of
7 the next page] swaying and then slumped"?
8 A. Stumbled, aye.
9 Q. Could you be a little closer to the
10 microphone?
11 A. Stumbled, slumped, like you know.
12 Q. You say you cannot remember if he fell?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was Mr Johnston at this stage, so far as you
15 recall, in the same position as you had seen him
16 before?
17 A. He was. He was just in a straight line from
18 me over to the right.
19 Q. Can we look at your map, AM170.6? You, very
20 helpfully, put on this map where you recollect
21 yourself, Damien Donaghy and Mr Johnston to have been:
22 "D" is Damien Donaghy, "C" is you and "E" is
23 Mr Johnston?
24 A. No, that "E" -- is that that one there, no,
25 in a straight line from me. If that is it there, that
1 is away behind some the laundry there.
2 Q. Yes, the plan is slightly confusing because,
3 although there was a laundry once there, at the time in
4 question the laundry was derelict and the spots that
5 you have marked as "D", "C" and "E" were all on waste
6 ground. Perhaps it might be easier if I showed you the
7 photograph. Could we have a look at P201, please? If
8 I could have control for the moment. May I show you
9 where we are? William Street is there, do you follow?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The Nook Bar is there?
12 A. That is the Nook Bar, yes.
13 Q. Where Richardson's factory used to be is
14 there?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. And the waste ground below William Street is
17 where I am pointing out?
18 A. Aye.
19 Q. Are you with me?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. The place that you have identified on the map
22 as the place where Damien Donaghy was when he was shot
23 is approximately there?
24 A. There when he was shot?
25 Q. Yes, is that your recollection?
1 A. That is my recollection, yes, he was shot
2 there. You see he ran to get the rubber bullet and
3 then there was another shot and that is when he
4 stumbled there.
5 Q. A number of witnesses have told us that at
6 the time that he was shot he was at the very corner of
7 the Nook Bar and the pavement at the south side of
8 William Street?
9 A. Well, he ran to get the rubber bullet and my
10 attention was sort of focused away from that when
11 I looked at my husband, but then when the shot --
12 I presumed he was shot there where that red -- with the
13 second shot.
14 Q. That is where you presumed he was shot.
15 I think what you actually saw was somebody picking him
16 up; is that right?
17 A. I seen -- aye, the men came to pick him up.
18 Q. I wonder whether they might have moved him a
19 bit by the time when you saw him, is that possible?
20 A. Well, it could have been possible.
21 Q. At any rate as I have understood it, please
22 tell me if I have it wrong, but you were somewhere
23 approximately in the middle of that waste ground where
24 I have marked the blue arrow?
25 (Marked by blue arrow)
1 A. Aye, nearer that left hand gable, the one
2 looking out to William Street. I am, what would you
3 say, in the middle, but nearer the left hand wall.
4 Q. Nearer the red arrow?
5 A. No, no, nearer the blue arrow.
6 Q. Does the blue arrow mark approximately where
7 you were?
8 A. It does, it does.
9 Q. Again, going from where you have marked the
10 position on the map, the position where you have marked
11 Mr Johnston as being is somewhere approximately like
12 that?
13 A. No, come forward.
14 Q. Is it possible for somebody to take out the
15 white arrow that I have just put on the screen? If
16 I could have control back again, you want me to come
17 forward; do you want me to come forward as far as the
18 blue arrow?
19 A. The blue arrow, but to my right side but
20 about ten feet from me on the right side.
21 Q. Is that about the sort --
22 A. That is about it, that is about it there.
23 (Marked by white arrow)
24 Q. I wonder if we could save that -- my last
25 arrow was in white -- as AM170.7.
1 Were you aware of Mr Johnston before he was
2 shot?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What had he been doing; can you tell us which
5 direction he had been facing in?
6 A. He was facing on to William Street.
7 Q. Was he stationary or was he moving?
8 A. Stationary.
9 Q. He moved from the position where you first
10 saw him to any different position at the time that he
11 was shot?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Was he with anybody?
14 A. No, he was on his own.
15 Q. We have had quite a bit of evidence,
16 including the written evidence from Mr Johnston
17 himself, that in fact that day he had tagged on to the
18 end of the march and was going along this wasteland to
19 the left-hand side of the photograph, to the south, to
20 visit somebody in Glenfada Park. That is to say he
21 would have been going, at least at some stage, facing
22 away from William Street.
23 Do you think you might be mistaken --
24 A. No, when I seen him he probably came in from
25 William Street, but when I seen him he was standing,
1 standing stationary, looking out on to William Street.
2 Q. Can you help me on this: you have told us
3 about the number of people who were in the waste ground
4 at the time; do you recollect what sort of number of
5 people there were in William Street itself?
6 A. At that time, you see, we were near the end
7 of the march; the march was finished then, there was
8 no, there was no people in William Street.
9 Q. Did you see any people in the waste ground
10 where Richardson's factory used to be?
11 A. No, I did not see any people there at all.
12 Q. And you did not see any stone throwing?
13 A. I did not see any stone throwing at all.
14 Q. I wonder if we could go back to AM170.3,
15 paragraphs 14 to 16: you describe there how, after
16 Mr Johnston was shot, you decided to get away, and you
17 walked back into William Street and then turned left
18 into Abbey Street and made your way towards
19 Fahan Street West and got to a makeshift barricade;
20 this is not an army barricade, is it?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. If we look at AM170.6, you have marked where
23 the barricade was as item "G", if we could have a look
24 at that. You show us there where the barricade was,
25 really at the junction of Frederick Street and
1 Little Diamond; do you know how long that barricade had
2 been there for before --
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. Could we have a look at photograph P225? If
5 I could have control of this for a moment. This is
6 another of these aerial photographs, and again if we
7 can try and orientate ourselves, there is William
8 Street and there is Abbey Street leading into
9 Frederick Street; the Little Diamond is there?
10 A. Aye, the Little Diamond is there, more down.
11 Q. I am wondering whether that is in fact the
12 barricade itself?
13 A. About there, about there.
14 (Marked by yellow arrow)
15 Q. Could we just preserve that with a yellow
16 arrow as AM170.8?
17 If we could go back to AM170.3: you describe
18 in paragraphs 15 and 16 of your statement how
19 Father Mulvey and Eddie McAteer were standing at the
20 barricade and some shooting started, and Father Mulvey
21 pulled you down and said "Monica, get down, they are
22 shooting from the walls"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you get any impression of shooting coming
25 from somewhere?
1 A. I thought it was from the walls too; it was
2 very sharp shooting.
3 Q. Do you recollect approximately how many
4 shots?
5 A. Oh, there was a whole lot.
6 (2.30 pm)
7 Q. But you did not see the strike of any bullets
8 or anything of that kind?
9 A. I did not see what?
10 Q. The strike, where the bullet hits the ground,
11 you did not see --
12 A. No, no, we were too far away from it.
13 Q. Wherever the shots were landing, it was a
14 long way away from you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you have a clear recollection of this?
17 A. I have, yes.
18 Q. The reason that I ask is that there was some
19 evidence in front of Lord Widgery from the late
20 Father Mulvey about being at this barricade, but it
21 does not contain any reference to shooting apparently
22 coming from the walls?
23 A. Well, that is what he said to me.
24 Q. Apart from yourself, Father Mulvey and Eddie
25 McAteer was there anybody else around at the time?
1 A. There might have been about two more people.
2 Q. How long did this go on for?
3 A. How long did --
4 Q. How long did the shooting go on for?
5 A. Well, it seemed to go on for a good, a good
6 wee while, but I had my head down.
7 Q. You were actually down on the ground?
8 A. I was on the ground.
9 Q. And then in the end it stopped and you
10 managed to head home?
11 A. We went home and when we landed at our front
12 door, the next-door neighbour and her husband, they
13 were standing at the door. I did not go up to them.
14 I, I was flustered. It was unbelievable. I just,
15 I just did not know what really happened, it was --
16 I never was in a position like it. That there was so
17 much shooting and they said that there was five people
18 dead and I just did not believe it. I walked straight
19 into the living room and sat down, and I never moved.
20 Q. Mrs McDaid, thank you, those are all the
21 questions I wanted to ask. It may be that others have
22 some more.
23 Questioned by MR LAWSON
24 MR LAWSON: Mrs McDaid, only four matters
25 that I would like to ask you about, it will not take a
1 moment. The first is this: when you made your
2 statement to the Inquiry to help this Inquiry, you said
3 -- can we look at this on the screen at AM170.1,
4 paragraph 3, you see it on the screen in front of you
5 now. You said in respect of the march that "there was
6 a carnival atmosphere, people talking and laughing"?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Correct?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. I have no doubt that was absolutely right.
11 As far as you were concerned, Mrs McDaid, no-one had
12 given you any warnings that there was going to be
13 violence that day?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. Because if they had you would not have gone?
16 A. I would not have been there, no.
17 Q. You had heard no rumours to that effect?
18 A. You see I had six of a family.
19 Q. You would not take any risks?
20 A. I would not take any risks, no.
21 Q. That is the first matter.
22 The second matter is this: go back to the
23 page we have on the screen at the moment but further
24 down the page to paragraphs 5 and 6. You were there
25 describing the gas, were you not, the effect of the gas
1 on you?
2 A. Aye, aye. Yes.
3 Q. When you were standing -- we can look at it
4 on the map if need be -- near the corner of
5 Rossville Street and William Street?
6 A. Aye.
7 Q. Is that right?
8 A. I was not standing there too long.
9 Q. That was the point you were standing at?
10 A. That is the point we reached on the march.
11 Now we were near the end of the march and there was
12 confusion and there was -- it was just everything.
13 Q. But the position then was when you got to
14 that point, which was still some distance away from the
15 barriers, there was one further along William Street,
16 was there not?
17 A. Aye, I did not know anything what was
18 happening down at the other -- at the foot of William
19 Street. I knew nothing about that.
20 Q. I am not suggesting for a moment you did.
21 You were quite a way back from it?
22 A. I was back from it, aye.
23 Q. Nonetheless the gas was bad where you were,
24 is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You have described its effect on you and said
2 that the air was very heavy with CS gas?
3 A. Yes, very thick.
4 Q. No doubt other people were suffering as well,
5 is that right?
6 A. Yes, uh-huh.
7 Q. That is all I want to ask about that.
8 Then, please, thirdly just this: could we
9 have back on the screen, please, the photograph that
10 was marked up as AM170.7? This is the one that
11 Mr Clarke marked with your assistance a few minutes
12 ago, do you remember?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The green arrow shows roughly where Damien
15 Donaghy, as you discovered he was, was standing at the
16 corner by the gable wall?
17 LORD SAVILLE: My recollection is that was a
18 suggestion by Mr Clarke.
19 A. What? Who is talking?
20 MR LAWSON: That was Mr Clarke's suggestion,
21 sir, but it coincides with the witness's evidence,
22 I think.
23 LORD SAVILLE: It may do, I may have got my
24 recollection wrong, but I thought on the whole
25 Mrs McDaid was putting Mr Donaghy rather nearer the red
1 arrow. If I am wrong, I will be corrected.
2 A. When he stumbled --
3 MR LAWSON: That is later on, I think?
4 A. When I first seen him he was standing where
5 the green arrow was, but it was after the first shot
6 which was the rubber bullet. He ran to retrieve the
7 rubber bullet, and then the next shot he was hit and he
8 fell.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, thank you very much.
10 MR LAWSON: Although the green arrow was put
11 there by Mr Clarke it does show where you saw young
12 Mr Doherty first time?
13 A. First time.
14 Q. Look at that picture on the screen, if you
15 will. Let me just, very briefly, go through the
16 account you included in your statement at paragraph
17 10: you have not referred to him being at that corner;
18 you might want to look at it. To be complete, in
19 paragraph 8 of your statement you had referred to,
20 although you have corrected this slightly, him looking
21 out on to William Street, yes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You have told us that he did do that, yes?
24 A. Just -- like what would any young fella do;
25 he had seen soldiers, he would turn round and look to
1 see them.
2 Q. He had popped his head out to have a look?
3 A. I do not know whether he popped his head out,
4 but he stood.
5 Q. And then came back?
6 MR TOOHEY: Just a moment, Mr Lawson, I am
7 not sure Mrs McDaid agreed about the popping his head
8 out, did she?
9 MR LAWSON: I am not sure she did entirely.
10 MR TOOHEY: Or at all.
11 MR LAWSON: He looked out, you said, into
12 William Street; is that correct?
13 A. He looked on to William Street and I did not
14 see -- he looked on to William Street and I did not see
15 anything in his hands, stones or anything.
16 Q. Did he put his head round the corner of the
17 building?
18 A. No, he did not put his head round the corner.
19 Q. I wonder why that was the expression you used
20 in the statement; is that wrong?
21 A. They must have thought that is what I meant.
22 Q. Be that as it may. There came the point
23 after he had looked on to or into William Street?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. When a rubber bullet was fired; is that
1 right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He went to pick it up?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then, is this right, he ran away from
6 William Street along the gable of the building?
7 A. When the rubber bullet was fired he went to
8 retrieve it, but he did not get very far until there
9 was a second shot and he stumbled and fell, more or
10 less stumbled.
11 Q. All I am seeking your help with, is this: in
12 your statement you made to the Tribunal you said that
13 he ran away from William Street along the gable of the
14 building?
15 A. He ran to retrieve the rubber bullet.
16 Q. Absolutely. Looking back on the screen at
17 the arrows and where they are marked, does that mean
18 that he was running in effect between the green and the
19 red arrows?
20 A. Mmm.
21 Q. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And at about the position of the red arrow or
24 somewhere near there, you heard a shot and he fell?
25 A. And he fell.
1 Q. Is that accurate?
2 A. It could be a little bit up to the left from
3 the red arrow.
4 Q. So it could be closer to where the blue arrow
5 is?
6 A. No, not as close to the blue arrow.
7 Q. But a bit further along the wall though?
8 A. Aye, a bit, aye.
9 Q. But close to the wall, as you said in your
10 statement?
11 A. Aye, near the wall.
12 Q. Finally this, please. Can you assist me
13 with: you spoke of meeting with Father Mulvey and,
14 I think, Mr McAteer, then the local MP, was he not, at
15 the barrier in Bog Road.
16 Mr Clarke already referred to some evidence
17 given in 1972 by Father Mulvey, who sadly is no longer
18 with us. Can I ask you to help about this? Can we
19 look on the screen, please, H15.12? If you could
20 highlight the first half of paragraph 4, please.
21 This, Mrs McDaid, let me tell you, is an
22 extract from Father Mulvey's statement that he made in
23 1972, all right?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. In the paragraph which begins a few lines
1 down the screen at paragraph 4, he refers to reaching a
2 barricade, yes, at Little Diamond. Reading on, rifle
3 fire, everyone falling flat to the ground:
4 "The sound/shooting continued. There were
5 many shots and at least one burst of automatic fire for
6 the space of two or three seconds."
7 Does that accord with your memory? This is
8 what he wrote at the time, do you see?
9 A. Well, my memory is we came up
10 Frederick Street and there was this barricade and
11 Father Mulvey was there, Eddie McAteer and maybe a
12 couple of other people, I am not very sure about that,
13 but we told him about the shooting in William Street
14 and we were not very long there whenever this shooting
15 started and Father Mulvey said "Monica, get down, they
16 are shooting from the walls".
17 Q. That, you remember him saying, was from the
18 walls?
19 A. He said "from the walls".
20 Q. He, Father Mulvey, as we have just seen in
21 his statement made in February 1972, he said there were
22 many shots and at least one burst of automatic fire; do
23 you agree with that?
24 A. Well, there was plenty of sharp shooting.
25 I would not know the difference between automatic --
1 I would not know the difference.
2 Q. Secondly, he has said in the statement that
3 all the firing -- he said something to similar effect,
4 as Mr Clarke mentioned when giving evidence to
5 Lord Widgery, he said in the statement that the firing
6 seemed to be in the area of Rossville Street near
7 William Street?
8 A. That is what he said, he said to me.
9 Q. You remember him referring to the walls,
10 know?
11 A. He said to me "the walls", but then, do you
12 see, they were shooting down to Rossville Street.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke.
14 MR CLARKE: I have no further questions,
15 thank you very much.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs McDaid, thank you very
17 much indeed for coming to help us.
18 MR CLARKE: Sir, we have five witnesses.
19 I am afraid we have no further witnesses scheduled for
20 today. We have five scheduled for tomorrow.
21 LORD SAVILLE: I have the list.
22 MR CLARKE: I believe it has been
23 circulated. Mrs Eileen Doherty, AD64; Thomas McDaid,
24 AM177; Francis Brolly, AB89 (presently scheduled for
25 the morning, those three). Eamonn Gallagher, AG8 and
1 Frank Bradley, AB59 (both presently scheduled for the
2 afternoon).
3 LORD SAVILLE: We will come back at 9.30
4 tomorrow morning, please.
5 (2.45 pm)
6 (Proceedings adjourned until Thursday, 18th January
7 2001 at 9.30 am)
8 EDDIE DOHERTY (sworn)
9 Questioned by MR CLARKE.............................. 1
10 Questioned by MS DOHERTY............................ 19
11 questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 21
12 Questioned by MR ELIAS.............................. 31
13 JOHN McGEE (sworn).................................. 33
14 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 33
15 Questioned by MR R HARVEY........................... 50
16 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 54
17 Questioned by MR ELIAS.............................. 62
18 questioned by SIR ALLAN GREEN....................... 63
19 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 65
20 MR DOHERTY, sworn................................... 67
21 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 67
22 questioned by MR O'HANLON........................... 87
23 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................. 95
24 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 113
25 MRS MONICA MCDAID, affirmed........................ 116
1 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................ 136