1 Monday, 1st September 2003
2 (10.30 am)
3 MRS JANICE KELLY (called)
4 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
5 LORD HUTTON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Now
6 Mr Dingemans, you are asking Mrs Kelly to give evidence
7 this morning.
8 MR DINGEMANS: My Lord, yes.
9 LORD HUTTON: Good morning Mrs Kelly. As I think you know,
10 Mr Dingemans will take you through your evidence and if
11 at any time you would like a break, please just say so.
12 A. Thank you, my Lord.
13 MR DINGEMANS: Mrs Kelly, I hope you can see me. We can see
14 a still picture of you. Can you hear me clearly?
15 A. I can see you and hear you.
16 Q. You married Dr Kelly in 1967?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Where had you met?
19 A. We had met when he was at Leeds University. I was
20 studying at Birmingham Training College at the time
21 before I moved on to Birmingham University.
22 Q. Mrs Kelly, you will need to keep your voice up a wee
23 bit, if that is all right.
24 A. That is fine.
25 Q. After university, what had he gone on to do?
1 A. He went on to do an MSc. He was then able to join me at
2 Birmingham University for one year there.
3 Q. Were you doing postgraduate work there?
4 A. I was doing my first degree.
5 Q. He was doing postgraduate work?
6 A. He was doing his second degree.
7 Q. What did he do after Birmingham?
8 A. After Birmingham he went on to do a Doctorate at Oxford
10 Q. Do you know what that was in?
11 A. Not entirely. It was something to do with viruses and
12 insect viruses.
13 Q. After he had finished his Doctorate, where did he work?
14 A. He then went on to do a post-doc fellowship at Warwick
15 University for three years and then went back to Oxford,
16 by invitation, to work back at the then Institute of
18 Q. Where were you living at that time?
19 A. We were living at that time at Eynsham.
20 Q. Near Oxford?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. Were you working at the time?
23 A. I was, I was a teacher.
24 Q. And when did you move to Kingston Bagpuize?
25 A. In 1974.
1 Q. What was his work at that time?
2 A. At that time, he was working in the NERC, Institute of
4 Q. Do you know what he was doing there?
5 A. He was doing a great deal of science. Terribly sorry,
6 I do not know the details of what he was doing, but he
7 was involved in a lot of laboratory work and in teaching
8 and training other people.
9 Q. Did there come a time when he moved on to Porton Down?
10 A. Yes, about 1984 by invitation he went to Porton Down.
11 Q. Do you know what he was doing in broad outline?
12 A. Yes, he led a department of microbiology there and set
13 it up in a much bigger -- as a much bigger set-up than
14 it was initially. He took quite a number of people with
15 him from Oxford to do that.
16 Q. Where is Porton Down in the country?
17 A. That is near Salisbury.
18 Q. He would drive down to Salisbury?
19 A. We had intended to move but could not find anywhere
20 suitable. At that time we lived in a rather nice house
21 in Kingston Bagpuize so we decided to stay, so he
22 travelled 50 miles each way each day. Sometimes he
23 would stay down in the officers' mess.
24 Q. And did at any time he move into weapons monitoring?
25 A. Yes, towards the end of the 1980s, about 1987 I think,
1 he was involved in some work in Russia where he seemed
2 to establish quite a good reputation and was asked back
3 several times.
4 Q. Do you know what he was doing in Russia?
5 A. He certainly interrogated a defector at some point, but
6 it was weapons monitoring.
7 Q. How long was he away? For months at a time?
8 A. Weeks at a time, anything up to three weeks, generally
9 shorter than that.
10 Q. Did he talk about his work in Russia?
11 A. In general terms he felt it was really very exciting
12 work. This was the beginning of the time when he began
13 to become extremely dedicated to his work. He became
14 more of -- what shall I say -- a workaholic than he had
15 before. He really did get involved in that.
16 Q. He seemed to enjoy it?
17 A. Very much so.
18 Q. After his work in Russia, do you know where he moved on
19 to then?
20 A. He was asked to get involved in the UNSCOM,
21 United Nations Special Commission on Iraq and then spent
22 a lot of time going out to the UN headquarters in
23 New York.
24 Q. Was this before or after the first Gulf War?
25 A. That was just after the first Gulf War I believe.
1 Q. Did he spend quite a lot of time in Iraq?
2 A. Yes, he did. He went there nearly 40 times altogether,
3 anything up to three weeks at a time.
4 Q. These were three-week stretches?
5 A. Generally, yes. Generally not anything more.
6 Q. At this stage, were you aware about any press contacts
7 he might have had?
8 A. Yes, indeed. In fact he had been on a TV training
9 course paid by his employers, which required to give
10 press briefings over quite a long period of time both
11 formally and informally.
12 Q. When he was at home was he ever contacted by members of
13 the press?
14 A. Yes, frequently. Yes.
15 Q. And did you ever hear any of those conversations?
16 A. Only in general terms. Sometimes I could hear him
17 saying: well, I need to check with the Foreign Office,
18 or whatever, first, or sometimes he would say: I am not
19 able to talk on that particular topic, I can give you
20 some background. He was never very long on the phone
21 with these journalists.
22 Q. And you say he became more and more interested in his
24 A. Yes, much more involved.
25 Q. How did he keep in contact with work when he was at
2 A. Mostly by telephone -- yes, by telephone. It was before
3 the days, then, of computers.
4 Q. And before mobile telephones?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. And we have heard that in 1988 the UNSCOM inspectors
7 were removed from Iraq.
8 A. Indeed.
9 Q. Was that the last time, so far as you know, before the
10 end of the second Gulf War that your husband went out to
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. And what was his view on that? Did he speak to you at
14 all about that?
15 A. Yes, he felt that his job there was not finished, that
16 Iraq did indeed have plenty of weapons to discuss and to
17 reveal. It was quite a frustrating time I think after
18 1988 when they were effectively thrown out of Iraq and
19 he was not able to continue there. But he did do quite
20 a lot of background work still. He still carried on
21 working in that field.
22 Q. And it seems at about that time that he had started
23 working more directly for the Ministry of Defence. Were
24 you aware of that?
25 A. Yes. I was never quite aware of who he worked for.
1 Since we had three children under the age of 2, he had
2 taken over the family finances, so where all the inputs
3 came from into our family income I was not terribly
4 sure. It was always a bit unclear as to who he was
5 working for. I had the impression he sometimes was
6 invited to give talks and what have you and be paid
7 separately. Sometimes he would be paid for some things
8 by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and sometimes by
9 the United Nations. So there was a secondment in there
10 somewhere, but I was never always terribly sure where
11 that was.
12 Q. We have seen some of the correspondence he has written
13 about whether his job had been lost in the command
14 structure somewhere.
15 A. Indeed, indeed.
16 Q. Were you aware of any feelings he had on that?
17 A. Yes, he did; he was quite frustrated about that in a way
18 because it was a kind of I think the press called it
19 a hole. To some extent it was. He was content in some
20 ways, and I think he would have done the whole job for
21 nothing had he not had to support a wife and family,
22 but, yes, it was a bit frustrating for him. It had to
23 be dealt with every now and again. But he was so busy
24 that very often he could not check on his new income
1 Q. We have heard at some time Dr Kelly became a member of
2 the Baha'i faith. Do you know anything about that?
3 A. Only a little. He kept it very privately to himself.
4 It was a few years ago, perhaps five or six years ago,
5 when I realised he was reading the Koran and he was
6 becoming perhaps gentler in his ways, in some ways. It
7 really was a spiritual revelation for him. He read
8 widely on the subject and met a number of people.
9 I think there was one interpreter, Mike Peddison, who in
10 fact later became a family friend, who was quite
11 influential there. He certainly went to a number of
12 meetings in our own local area too until about two years
13 ago and then that dropped off somewhat.
14 Q. It dropped off about two years ago?
15 A. Yes, in terms of meetings. His faith did not drop off.
16 Right to the very end that was important to him,
17 I believe.
18 Q. Do you know why it dropped off?
19 A. I think the prayer meeting structure in the local area
20 changed from being larger groups right down to twos or
21 threes. He found that less comforting and less
23 Q. Do you know whether or not, from January/February
24 time -- you were having your daughter's wedding, I think
25 your daughter's wedding was in February. How was his
1 mood in January time?
2 A. In January time he was a little more tired than he had
3 been. It was fine. He was looking forward to our
4 daughter's wedding and looking forward to the year. He
5 had some trepidation though about the war coming up. He
6 believed in it but was obviously sad that we seemed to
7 be moving towards that position.
8 Q. And had he talked about his retirement, at that stage?
9 A. Yes, but only in general terms. Later on he gave a date
10 to it. At that stage he was thinking perhaps of 2005.
11 He was a little bit worried about his pension
12 requirements there and we still had a mortgage to pay on
13 the house, so he was going to leave it as late as he
15 Q. Then you have your daughter's wedding in February?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. After that he seems to have gone back off to America; is
18 that right?
19 A. That is right, he did, the day after.
20 Q. And do you know what he was doing work-wise then?
21 A. He was working at the United Nations. I think he was
22 supporting one of the commissioners there, I am not
24 Q. And he returned -- do you remember when?
25 A. He returned a few days later. I am not sure. My own
1 diary, I am afraid, is lost. I am using a mid year
2 diary so I do not have reference to my own diary at that
4 Q. Then we come on to May time. Where was he in May? Do
5 you recall?
6 A. He went to the Middle East twice, I think, in May. Once
7 to Kuwait and then he came back to sort out a visa and
8 then went back to Baghdad, although -- actually it was
9 a little later in June I believe. Yes, he was backwards
10 and forwards from New York.
11 Q. We have a document that you very kindly produced in May.
12 Can I show it to you? It is FAM/5/1. I think we are
13 going to lose your picture and see the document. Can
14 you tell me a bit about where you found this document?
15 A. I am still waiting to see it.
16 Q. Okay. So are we. We have now lost you. I think we are
17 going to get something on the screen. I hope you get
18 the same -- we are not going to get anything on the
19 screen so we will have your picture back, if we may.
20 It is a document that has been produced which is
21 dated 9th May. Can you tell us where you found that?
22 A. Can you give me a bit more information about it?
23 Q. It is from Eric Mattey, Honour's Secretary, dated
24 9th May 2003.
25 A. Is this the one where it was scribbled at the top
1 left-hand corner?
2 Q. Yes, there is some writing in the top right-hand corner
3 A. This is something we found in his filing cabinet
4 a couple of weeks ago or so. It was headed -- this was
5 a trawl for people to be on the New Year's Honours List.
6 Q. In 2004?
7 A. And scribbled in the top left-hand corner was:
8 "How about David Kelly? Iraq is topical."
9 Q. Iraq being topical in handwriting. The note appears to
10 be dated 14th May.
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. You found that, where do you say?
13 A. In his filing cabinet. There were a few files left
14 after the police had been and taken what they needed.
15 Q. And did he discuss that with you at all?
16 A. No, he had not mentioned that. It was headed
18 Q. Right.
19 LORD HUTTON: Mrs Kelly, what was the honour suggested?
20 A. I do not believe there was an honour suggested. He had
21 already got a CMG in 1996. So it might well have been
22 a knighthood, I really do not know.
23 LORD HUTTON: I see. Thank you very much.
24 MR DINGEMANS: Can I ask you a bit about Dr Kelly's travel?
25 He seems to have travelled fairly extensively. We have
1 heard that from other witnesses and we have seen parts
2 of his diaries. Is that a fair impression?
3 A. Oh indeed, yes. It was not an easy thing to live with
4 in many ways. He would travel and say: I am going away
5 for a week on Tuesday 4th, I will be back on Monday 11th
6 or whatever and then that would change. It often
7 changed two or three times and the length of stay would
8 change too. Yes, he was travelling quite regularly.
9 Q. Did he try to travel over weekends or anything?
10 A. Yes, he did. He kept his travel to the weekends so he
11 could use the full week for working. So he would often
12 arrive back either fairly early on Sunday morning or
13 Monday morning. Usually on a Sunday morning at
14 breakfast time, then rest for a few hours before he
15 prepared for the next day.
16 Q. We have also heard a bit about his holiday. It appears
17 he took some holiday time in August 2002, finishing very
18 early September 2002.
19 A. He did.
20 Q. Part of that time he appears to have been working in
21 New York.
22 A. Yes, that is right.
23 Q. Do you know anything about that?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. And did he take any other holiday time, so far as you
1 are aware?
2 A. No, he was not good at holidays. He was always on call.
3 He always had his mobile phone on and he took a minimum
4 amount of time. He would try to slot in his gardening
5 duties, mowing the lawns and so on between work, either
6 in the evening or very occasionally he would take a day
7 in lieu.
8 Q. Did he have a weekend earlier on this year?
9 A. Yes, he did. Our field and the lawns had got very, very
10 long and he seemed to be driven. He really had to spend
11 a long time doing that and he was extremely tired
12 afterwards. We have a very old, battered ride-on mower
13 and that was a seven hour job, and he made himself stick
14 at it all day with just breaks for water and food. He
15 was extremely tired. This was fitted in tightly between
16 two visits.
17 Q. Also in May we have heard that he met Mr Gilligan, on
18 22nd May.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you aware of that meeting?
21 A. Yes, I was. He just said that he was meeting him in
22 London, which was unusual for him to go and meet
23 somebody in London. He was up there anyway. I just
24 recognised the name from somewhere, I am not quite sure
1 Q. But he did not tell you the nature of the meeting?
2 A. No, he would never tell me the nature of his meetings.
3 Generally it was for briefings. I think Andrew Gilligan
4 was going into and then coming out of Baghdad and he was
5 being briefed by Andrew Gilligan, basically.
6 Q. At the end of June we know that Dr Kelly wrote a letter
7 to Dr Wells. Were you aware of that at the time?
8 A. Not at the time, no. The only thing I was aware of was
9 that he became very much more taciturn. He became more
10 difficult to talk to, he became more tense, withdrawn
11 and we as a family expressed this worry to each other,
12 we each noticed it.
13 Q. When can you date that from, if you can?
14 A. The last week of June, I would think. We were worried
15 about him before then. He seemed to be under a little
16 bit of strain in terms of travelling. He was tired and
17 looking his age. He seemed to have aged quite a bit.
18 It is that last week in June particularly when we really
19 noticed a great deal of change in him.
20 Q. We also know between 5th and 11th June he went out to
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. How was he before he went out?
24 A. Before he went out he was really glad to be going. He
25 was slightly nervous of what he might find there. He
1 knew it was an occupied country and he would be staying
2 in some very uncomfortable conditions. He had not been
3 out for a number of years. I think he had begun to
4 realise he had aged a little bit since he was last there
5 in 1998. So a little bit of trepidation.
6 Q. After his return, had he enjoyed his trip?
7 A. Yes and no. He came back with mixed feelings. So much
8 had changed, he was quite sad for the Iraqis. He did
9 not actually meet any of them while he was over there.
10 He was very much impounded within a presidential palace,
11 along with some US military people. He was sleeping on
12 a floor with no electricity, stagnant water from the
13 lakes outside, 40-degrees plus. It was very difficult
14 for him from a physical point of view. He was glad he
15 was involved. He had had difficulty trying to get back
16 there in a way. I got the feeling that he wanted to go
17 back many weeks before and there had been various
18 hold-ups in that.
19 Q. We know one of the hold ups was the visa problems in
20 Kuwait. Were you aware of any other hold ups?
21 A. Just changes of date.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. Constant changes of date.
24 Q. Now, after he had returned from Iraq, did he stay in
25 this country?
1 A. No. Within two or three days he had gone off to
2 Baltimore where --
3 Q. Do you know what he was doing there?
4 A. I think he was giving a speech at Johns Hopkins
6 Q. Do you know what the speech was about?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When did he return from that?
9 A. I am not absolutely certain. About 20th June.
10 Q. Right. And he then had some time off?
11 A. Yes, he spent a day, I think I mentioned to you, the
12 seven hours in the paddock I think was at that
13 particular time. The second time that year in fact when
14 he had spent quite a long time trying to get the garden
15 sorted out. Because I am disabled, I am not able to do
16 that myself, so he was trying to do that before he went
17 away again.
18 Q. He went away after he had returned from Baltimore?
19 A. I am not sure immediately, but later on he went on some
20 courses, but that was a little bit later. He was in
21 London quite a lot at that stage, backwards and
23 Q. Right. And was there anything that you noticed at the
24 end of June, any long walks or anything?
25 A. Yes, yes. He worried me somewhat one day, one evening,
1 by suddenly getting up from his chair one evening,
2 having been quite withdrawn and worried I think, and he
3 went upstairs to dress, change his clothes. He came
4 down looking rather smarter than he would normally be at
5 home, rather smarter than he would normally be if he
6 were just popping down to the local pub for a game of
7 crib or something like that. He said he was going to
8 walk to the Hind's Head at the other end of the village
9 and off he went, seeming very preoccupied. That again
10 would have been just before that letter was sent. About
11 half an hour or 40 minutes later he came back and
12 I said: You have been quick. You cannot walk there and
13 back in that time, and he replied: I went for a walk
14 instead to think something through.
15 I was immediately worried, the way he said it. He
16 said it slowly. I immediately thought perhaps he was
17 worrying about me or something. So he said: no, no, it
18 is not you, it is a professional thing. I said: do you
19 want to talk about it? He said no. I remember that
20 because I was actually quite worried about him at this
21 time and I was really getting quite anxious.
22 Q. You say Dr Kelly was walking off to the pub. Did he
23 drink at this time?
24 A. No, he had given up alcohol completely on becoming
25 a Baha'i some years previously. He had only ever had
1 a pint a night or something like that, or a pint every
2 other night or twice a week.
3 Q. How was his overall condition? Was he losing weight or
4 gaining weight?
5 A. Other people have suggested he was losing weight. I did
6 not notice that particularly, but I think he was. He
7 certainly looked worried. He looked just very
8 withdrawn. He was coping physically overall reasonably
10 Q. That brings us, I think, to 4th July. We know from
11 documents we have seen that Dr Kelly was interviewed on
12 4th July about the letter he had written on 30th June.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Did you know about that at the time?
15 A. No, I was totally unaware of anything other than the
16 feeling that he was not enjoying his work so much, that
17 he was more withdrawn. He was more driven in the things
18 he was doing in his leisure time at home. But that is
19 all I noticed.
20 Q. And then we know that he went off to RAF Honnington.
21 A. Indeed he did.
22 Q. For 7th and 8th July.
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. Do you know when he set off to RAF Honnington?
25 A. He set off on the morning of the -- was it the morning
1 or the evening before? He set off in the car, unusual
2 for him. He was worried about getting there in time and
3 so on.
4 Q. That was on the Sunday?
5 A. On the Sunday, yes, that must have been right.
6 Q. Did he talk to you from RAF Honnington at all?
7 A. Yes. Having got there, I had expected him to be away
8 for two days. He rang me. He was on a train going to
9 London for an interview. He did not say what that
10 interview was about. He did not sound unduly odd about
11 that and I did not pick up any kind of stress factor
12 from him at all. I did not assume anything other than
13 it was yet one more change of plan that was quite normal
14 with him.
15 Q. Right. Did he go back to RAF Honnington or did he come
16 back via Oxford way?
17 A. He had warned me he might come back that evening. In
18 the event, he actually went back and rejoined the
19 course. He was able to catch up with everybody else and
20 continue and then complete the course he was on.
21 Q. So he was travelling back home then on the Tuesday
22 8th July, is that right?
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. Do you know what time he got home?
25 A. About 7 o'clock, I think.
1 Q. Right. And how did he seem then?
2 A. Quiet. I was busy. I was busy interviewing some people
3 for my local History Society. So I did not actually
4 talk to him for long at that immediate point on his
5 return. It was a little bit later we spoke.
6 Q. When you spoke a little bit later, what was said?
7 A. Well, we had a meal and then we went in to sit and watch
8 the news. He seemed a little bit reluctant to come and
9 watch the news. The main story was a source had
10 identified itself. Immediately David said to me "it's
12 Q. The story, we have seen a press statement that was put
13 out by the Ministry of Defence on 8th July, was that the
14 story that was on the television?
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. And which channel were you watching, do you recall?
17 A. I am not sure. I think it was probably Channel 4, I am
18 not sure.
19 Q. Dr Kelly said to you "it's me"?
20 A. "It's me". My reaction was total dismay. My heart
21 sank. I was terribly worried because the fact that he
22 had said that to me, I knew then he was aware his name
23 would be in the public domain quite soon. He confirmed
24 that feeling of course.
25 Q. How did he seem to you?
1 A. Desperately unhappy about it, really really unhappy
2 about it. Totally dismayed. He mentioned he had had
3 a reprimand at that stage from the MoD but they had not
4 been unsupportive, were his words. We talked a little
5 bit generally about it and what it would mean for him in
6 real terms. He was a bit backward in coming forward,
7 may I say, in saying what he meant. I deliberately at
8 that point said: would it mean a pension problem, would
9 it mean you having to leave your job? He said it could
10 be if it got worse, yes.
11 Q. So he mentioned he had had a reprimand and you said
12 something about supportive -- what had he said to you?
13 A. That the MoD had not been unsupportive.
14 Q. They had not been unsupportive?
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. And what was his reaction to the fact that he thought
17 his name was going to become public?
18 A. Total dismay.
19 LORD HUTTON: Did he say, Mrs Kelly, why he thought his name
20 might or would become public?
21 A. Yes. Because the MoD had revealed that a source had
22 made itself known, he, in his own mind, said that he
23 knew from that point that the press would soon put two
24 and two together. We have an amazing press in this
25 country who it does not take them long to find out
1 details of this sort and he is well known of course in
2 his field, so that would have been another easy job for
4 MR DINGEMANS: And did you have any further discussion that
5 Tuesday evening about this matter?
6 A. No, we did not.
7 Q. On the 9th July, do you know where he was?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did he go to London?
10 A. Yes, he was supposed to be going to London so I was
11 quite surprised when he said he was going to work in the
12 garden all day. Again he got on to his vegetable patch
13 and was working in a rather lacklustre way that
14 particular day but he did receive and make some phone
15 calls as well.
16 Q. Did you have any visitors that day?
17 A. Yes, we did in the evening.
18 Q. What time did you have a visitor?
19 A. Not absolutely certain. It was something like 7.30 or
20 something like that.
21 Q. Who was that visitor?
22 A. It turned out to be Nick Rufford.
23 Q. Where was Dr Kelly?
24 A. We had both been sitting out having our coffee in the
25 garden after dinner that evening. I was watering the
1 plants and David went to put some tools away he had been
2 using during the day which involved him going into the
3 yard which lay between our house and the main road
5 Q. And were you aware that anyone else was there?
6 A. I suddenly looked up and there was David talking to
7 somebody. I had not got my glasses on so I moved
8 a little bit closer with the hosepipe to see who it was
9 and I recognised it as Nick Rufford. Nick had been to
10 our house before but only by arrangement, he never just
11 turned up before this. No journalist just turned up
12 before this, so I was extremely alarmed about that.
13 Q. Do you know what was said between Mr Rufford and
14 Dr Kelly?
15 A. To be absolutely fair I am not sure now what I heard.
16 David confirmed what I thought I had heard afterwards.
17 I heard him say -- I heard Nick say, I think,
18 "Rupert Murdoch" and I heard David say, "Please leave
19 now". The conversation only took place over about four
20 or five minutes maximum.
21 Q. And did you speak with Dr Kelly after the conversation?
22 A. Yes, I did. He came over to me and said that Nick had
23 said that Murdoch had offered hotel accommodation for
24 both of us away from the media spotlight in return for
25 an article by David. He, David, was to be named that
1 night and that the press were on their way in droves.
2 That was the language David used, I am not sure Nick
3 used that. He also added -- he was very upset and his
4 voice had a break in it at this stage. He got the
5 impression from Nick that the gloves were off now, that
6 Nick would use David's name in any article that he wrote
7 and he was extremely upset.
8 Q. Had you spoken with Dr Kelly at all during the day about
9 his reaction to the news the night before?
10 A. Yes, I had. He said several times over coffee, over
11 lunch, over afternoon tea that he felt totally let down
12 and betrayed. It seemed to me that this was all part of
13 what might have happened anyway because it seemed to
14 have been a very loose arrangement with the MoD, they
15 did not seem to take a lot of account of his time.
16 There was a lot of wasting of his time.
17 I just felt that this must have been very
18 frustrating for him. David often said: they are not
19 using me properly. He felt that the MoD were not quite
20 sure how to use his expertise at times, although I have
21 later seen his manager's reports on his staff appraisals
22 where he obviously did warrant his or respect his
23 expertise. But that is not the impression that I got.
24 Q. You say, I think, that he had felt totally let down and
25 betrayed. Who did he say that of?
1 A. He did not say in so many terms but I believed he meant
2 the MoD because they were the ones that had effectively
3 let his name be known in the public domain.
4 Q. And did you get the impression that he was happy or
5 unhappy that this press statement had been made?
6 A. Well, he did not know about it until after it had
7 happened. So he was -- I think initially he had been
8 led to believe that it would not go into the public
9 domain. He had received assurances and that is why he
10 was so very upset about it.
11 Q. What, he did not know that the press statement saying an
12 unnamed source had come forward would be made?
13 A. Not until after the event.
14 LORD HUTTON: Did he say from whom he had received
15 assurances Mrs Kelly?
16 A. From his line manager, from all their seniors and from
17 the people he had been interviewed by.
18 MR DINGEMANS: And his reaction on hearing the news, you
19 said he had seemed slightly reluctant to watch the news
20 that night.
21 A. Yes, indeed.
22 Q. Was that because he had seen an earlier news, do you
23 think, or because he knew something might be coming up?
24 A. I think it was probably trepidation that this was the
25 moment. He was not quite sure when it would actually
1 happen but since Nick had come it was going to be a big
2 problem. He knew that.
3 Q. Right. You also said that he had the impression he was
4 not being used properly; by whom? Who was not using him
6 A. The MoD, yes. He never said that about the Foreign
7 Office when he worked there or for UNSCOM in those days
9 Q. And in what sense did he feel he was not being used
11 A. Well, he often found that he was doing perhaps slightly
12 lower order jobs than he might be doing. He was filling
13 his time giving briefings, giving speeches, key note
14 speeches and others when perhaps he might have been more
15 involved in perhaps higher level policy making. There
16 was a letter I came up with where it was suggested that
17 David should be used in policy making rather more than
18 he was being.
19 Q. Going back to Mr Rufford, did David speak to you after
20 he had spoken to Mr Rufford?
21 A. Yes, he did. He came across and told me what Nick had
23 Q. He mentioned this proposed deal; is that right?
24 A. That is right. That is right.
25 Q. And what had been Dr Kelly's reaction to that?
1 A. Extremely upset at two levels. One that he was being --
2 you know, the press were on their way in droves, as Nick
3 had put it, and also that his friendship with Nick --
4 because he always used to work so hard, because he was
5 a workaholic to all intents, most of his friendships, in
6 fact his close friendships were all with people he
7 worked with on a regular basis, so if he gave a regular
8 briefing to someone, very often it would become not
9 a close friendship but a friendship nevertheless. He
10 felt that friendship was now at an end.
11 Q. Having heard that the press were on their way in droves,
12 what did you do?
13 A. We hovered a bit. I said I knew a house that was
14 available to us, if we needed it, down in the south-west
15 of England, and he did not pick up on that initially.
16 Q. Did you remind him of that?
17 A. Yes, I did. The phone rang inside the house and he went
18 in to answer it, came out and he said: I think we will
19 be needing that house after all. The MoD press office
20 have just rung to say we ought to leave the house and
21 quickly so that we would not be followed by the press.
22 Q. So the phone call was from the Ministry of Defence?
23 A. It was the Ministry of Defence press office.
24 Q. And they said you ought to leave?
25 A. Yes. Whether he had offered anything else in the
1 interim I do not know, that was never mentioned.
2 Q. Right. But you decided to go down to this place that
3 you knew --
4 A. Indeed. We immediately went into the house and packed
5 and within about 10 minutes we had left the house.
6 Q. Had you done any prepacking?
7 A. No, no, no.
8 Q. Where did you drive to?
9 A. We headed along the road towards the M4 and got to --
10 about 9.30, 9.45 we got as far as Weston-Super-Mare and
11 decided to pull in at a hotel there for the night.
12 Q. Were any telephone calls made on the way down?
13 A. Yes. He was driving, very, very tense and I was trying
14 to persuade him not to take or make any calls while we
15 were actually driving. So before we got on to M4, we
16 pulled over and tried to get hold of his line manager
17 Bryan Wells. I cannot remember at that time exactly
18 when he did make contact with Bryan, it may have been
19 rather later. It did take some time to get hold of him
20 but he did make contact with someone called Kate at the
21 MoD press office.
22 Q. Do you know what he spoke about to Kate?
23 A. No, he was -- I think he used a phrase like "cut and
24 run". David would never use that phrase in normal
25 terms. He was obviously exceedingly upset, we were both
1 were, very anxious, very stressed.
2 Q. How did he seem at this stage, his appearance?
3 A. Very taut. His whole demeanour was very tight. I was
4 extremely worried because he was insisting on driving.
5 I asked if I could drive, he would not let me. He was
6 very, very tired and so was I by this time.
7 Q. Do you know if he spoke to Dr Wells at all that night?
8 A. I think he did as we were driving along the M4.
9 Q. What was said?
10 A. Only that we had left home and that we were heading
11 towards the south-west of England and was this okay
12 because it was going further away from London, and he
13 got the assurance that for the time being that was fine.
14 Q. Which town did you drive to?
15 A. Weston-Super-Mare.
16 Q. You stayed --
17 A. We stayed overnight. We had a rather sleepless night
18 but we stayed overnight there en route to Cornwall.
19 Q. You were staying in a hotel?
20 A. We were.
21 Q. You had breakfast there the next morning?
22 A. We did, in the main dining room. We had asked for
23 The Times to be delivered. We just read it as we
24 finished our breakfast. We just read a couple of
25 articles that were about David.
1 Q. What were the articles about David saying?
2 A. The first one if I remember correctly -- I am sure
3 I do -- was written by Nick Rufford giving a brief
4 outline of his contact with David, naming him in his
5 article. Then there was another article inside with
6 a photograph of David and a run down of his career given
7 I presume by an MoD source naming him as a middle
8 ranking official.
9 Q. How did Dr Kelly seem about that?
10 A. Well, there was several references to his lowly status.
11 I do not know whether it was more my reaction or his but
12 he was rather knocked back by that.
13 Q. Having read the paper and had breakfast -- did he manage
14 to eat anything?
15 A. He did a little, yes.
16 Q. Did you set off anywhere?
17 A. Yes, we did. He made a few calls on his mobile in the
18 garden of the hotel.
19 Q. Do you know who he was calling?
20 A. He was calling MoD, but I do not know who he spoke to.
21 Q. Do you know what was said? Did he report back?
22 A. No, he did not. He just said I was okay to continue
23 down towards Cornwall.
24 Q. You did the packing?
25 A. I did my packing. He had already more or less done his
2 Q. There obviously was not that much to pack anyway?
3 A. No, there was not. He had a briefcase and we each had
4 a small suitcase each.
5 Q. You set off down to Cornwall I think?
6 A. We did, yes.
7 Q. What time did you leave the hotel?
8 A. We left the hotel about 8.30, 8.45, that sort of time.
9 Q. What time did you get down to the place you were driving
10 to in Cornwall?
11 A. That was about noon or just after.
12 Q. How had he seemed on the journey?
13 A. Not quite as tense as the night before but still very
14 tense. I was trying to say to him how nice Cornwall
15 was, we could visit places like the Eden Project and
16 Lost Gardens of Heligan, and so on, which I had visited
17 several times before, so I was trying to make
18 conversation to relax him and try and turn this in some
19 way into a holiday. We had not had holidays together
20 for so long that I was trying to make this a kind of
21 positive experience for him.
22 Q. Did you have lunch after you arrived in Cornwall?
23 A. We did, but I think he then became more upset at that
24 stage and very tense. I could not comfort him. He
25 seemed to withdraw into himself completely. And
1 I decided that the best I could do, and I made a policy
2 thing here then that I would keep him properly fed, good
3 food, attractive food and then keep him occupied as
4 pleasantly as possible. So although he was less
5 stressed in one sense, he was more upset by now.
6 Q. Did he talk to you at all about his treatment at this
8 A. No, not at this stage. We both had a meal and then lay
9 down for a little while before going out into the local
10 village for a walk.
11 Q. And after your walk, did he speak to anyone that day?
12 A. Yes. There were several calls made. Certainly he had
13 spoken to Olivia, or rather Olivia Bosch had phoned his
14 mobile just as we were looking over the harbour, which
15 I hoped would be a positive experience, looking over the
16 harbour, but in fact she was telling him about the press
17 coverage and that did seem to upset him more.
18 Q. Olivia Bosch works with an UNSCOM organisation?
19 A. That is right, and I think for IISS, the International
20 Institute for Strategic Studies.
21 Q. How did Dr Kelly take this further news about the press
23 A. He was upset. He did not like his name being in the
24 public domain. He did not like being -- becoming the
1 Q. That is Thursday 10th July?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You stayed down in Cornwall that night?
4 A. We stayed down in Cornwall that night.
5 Q. What were you doing on the Friday?
6 A. On the Friday we decided to go to the Lost Gardens of
7 Heligan. It was only a short drive so we thought that
8 would be apt after the long day or two before.
9 Q. That is what, some gardens you can walk around?
10 A. That is right, yes.
11 Q. And did you have lunch there?
12 A. I am not sure whether we did or not. No, I think we
13 went back home -- we spent a long morning there during
14 which he had taken a call from several people from MoD
15 explaining about the Foreign Affairs Committee on the
16 Tuesday and an Intelligence Committee the following
18 Q. Do you know who the calls were from?
19 A. Certainly one was from Bryan Wells. I am not sure if it
20 was Bryan who told him that the former Foreign Affairs
21 Committee would be televised.
22 Q. How did Dr Kelly take that news?
23 A. He was ballistic. He just did not like that idea at
24 all. He felt it -- he did not say this in so many words
25 but he felt it would be a kind of continuation of a kind
1 of reprimand into the public domain. That was not going
2 to be very comfortable for him.
3 Q. And did he mention about the ISC, the other Committee?
4 A. He was less worried about that one, less worried about
6 Q. How was he after receiving this news? You say his
7 immediate reaction?
8 A. He was really upset. I had hoped the morning would be
9 positive and pleasurable for him. He did not see the
10 gardens at all. He was in a world of his own. He was
11 really quite stressed, very strained, and conversation
12 was extremely difficult.
13 Q. Did you go on any other walks that day?
14 A. We went home for lunch and then went down towards the
15 village again. I tried to keep him busy and then we
16 just relaxed during the evening. We took some calls
17 from the family again.
18 Q. And his mood generally at that stage?
19 A. Very unhappy. Very unhappy. He had in fact --
20 I remember him speaking -- I should have mentioned this
21 before -- he had made an arrangement to go to London on
22 the Monday to prepare. He was worried about whether he
23 would have to cope with briefings from the MoD on top of
24 his thoughts and feelings that he had already got.
25 Q. Do you know when he had made those arrangements? We are
1 on Friday 11th at the moment.
2 A. That is right, about that day. Certainly the
3 televising, he did not know about that before Friday
4 11th July.
5 Q. Coming on to Saturday, are you still down in Cornwall?
6 A. We are indeed. We set off to the Eden Project.
7 Q. What is that?
8 A. It is a huge quarry which has some biospheres in it with
9 tropical and warm temperate plantings within. It is
10 a huge project down there and he had never seen it.
11 Q. Did he enjoy seeing it?
12 A. No. Although it was a lovely World Heritage site, he
13 seemed very grim, very unhappy, extremely tense, but
14 accepting the process he was going through. He knew he
15 would have to go forward the following week. I was
16 trying to relax him. He was eating, he was drinking
17 soft drinks but it was a very grim time for both of us.
18 I have never, in all the Russian visits and all the
19 difficulties he had in Iraq, where he had lots of
20 discomforts, lots of horrors, guns pointing at him,
21 munitions left lying around, I had never known him to be
22 as unhappy as he was then.
23 Q. His unhappiness you could feel?
24 A. It was tangible.
25 Q. You could see it as well?
1 A. Absolutely, palpable.
2 Q. What else do you do on the Saturday?
3 A. Somehow we got through the day. I am not terribly sure
4 what we did now. We certainly went back home. We
5 wandered along the beach at some stage. That was not
6 easy for him. It was just a nightmare. That is all
7 I can describe it as.
8 Q. Did he at this stage discuss anything about the Ministry
9 of Defence?
10 A. No, but there did not seem to be anything in the way of
11 support. I was surprised nobody rang him and said:
12 look, you know, why does not somebody come down to talk
13 to you? And that had not happened.
14 Q. Right. 13th July is a Sunday?
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. Do you stay in Cornwall?
17 A. I stayed in Cornwall. David wanted to set off early.
18 I tried to delay him. He was extremely tense. The MoD
19 had offered, by now, to put him up at a hotel in
20 Horse Guards but we all thought, especially our daughter
21 Rachel, he would be more comfortable with her. So he
22 set off about 11.30. Before that we walked down into
23 Mevagissey and he insisted on buying a Sunday Times to
24 see whether Nick Rufford had in fact written anything
25 further, and Nick had indeed written something
1 further --
2 Q. What was Dr Kelly's reaction to that?
3 A. The article gave the impression that Nick had had a full
4 blown interview with David at our home in Oxfordshire.
5 That was not the case. And he said something like:
6 Thanks Nick, the MoD will think I have been talking to
7 the press after I expressly said that I would not, and
8 that was in no way an interview that he gave. But Nick
9 gave the impression that it was.
10 Q. So that article he read, did he read anything else in
11 the papers that day?
12 A. Yes, and it did not help. There were other comments
13 about his junior status, about -- it was just a total
14 belittling in some ways. But the thing he was worried
15 about was the Nick Rufford article.
16 Q. He was worried about the Nick Rufford article?
17 A. He was. He was angry and upset. He almost immediately
18 tried to get hold of Bryan Wells. He could not get him
19 straight away, but Bryan rang him later, which is why he
20 did not leave until about 11.30. He told Bryan how he
21 was feeling, that he really was upset and he did not
22 think it was fair that this article was presenting it as
23 a full blown interview.
24 Q. What did he think of the belittling of his status as you
25 put it?
1 A. He was in dismay. He did not say too much about it. It
2 affected me perhaps more than him at that stage. He
3 hated that. It was not fair. He had been working
4 extremely hard, working his socks off for years.
5 I think he must have felt it was unfair. He was so
6 stressed by now that the belittling hit him perhaps
7 rather later than at this stage.
8 Q. You told us he set off at 11.30. Did he go by train or
9 by car?
10 A. No, he drove by car. I was worried about this. I asked
11 him to drive extremely carefully and to take his time
12 and he got to Rachel's house, I do not know, about
13 5 o'clock I think. He did ring me and he sounded bone
14 weary. My heart went out to him. He really was
15 suffering at this stage.
16 Q. He rang you after he had arrived at Rachel's house?
17 A. He did, to say he had arrived. I had asked him to do
19 Q. Was anything else said on that evening on the telephone?
20 A. Not between me and David. He really was very, very
21 tired. I spoke to Rachel, she said he is fine, he is
22 fine. She was trying to buck me up, I think. They had
23 a meal together and he went to bed, I think it was
24 early. He did not take a number of other calls.
25 I think Sarah, his sister, had phoned and he talked to
1 various other people, but not to me again that evening.
2 Q. On 14th July, the Monday, we know he goes down to London
3 and has a briefing in the afternoon.
4 A. That is right. That is right.
5 Q. Did you speak to him at all on the Monday?
6 A. Yes, I did. After he had returned to Rachel's he rang
7 me to say that the day had not been too tormenting. He
8 was not worried about what had gone on by that day.
9 I asked if he was being supported by the MoD and he
10 said: I suppose so, yes. He always previously said yes
11 when I asked this question on several occasions before,
12 so he was a little bit less certain, I felt.
13 I was a bit worried about the lack of support or the
14 lack of apparent support. He was not an easy man to
15 support in some ways, he would always try to give the
16 impression that he was okay, and I think his immediate
17 line manager was a much younger man than him and he
18 would have tried, as he did with us, to protect him from
19 his own feelings. He tried to keep his feelings to
21 Q. Was there any other conversation on 14th July, the
22 Monday? Did you talk about the Foreign Affairs
23 Committee the next day?
24 A. He said he was very, very upset about that and I think
25 it was on this day that he said that somebody had told
1 him over the phone while we were down in Cornwall that
2 Jack Straw, who he had supported a few weeks earlier at
3 the Foreign Affairs Committee --
4 Q. I think that was some time in September 2002.
5 A. Right, yes. He had gone through the Foreign Affairs
6 Committee, so he knew it could be quite a tough range of
7 interviews effectively there, and someone had said to
8 him while we were in Cornwall: Jack Straw had said he
9 was upset at the technical support at that Committee
10 meeting, he had been accompanied by somebody so junior.
11 Q. How had Dr Kelly taken that?
12 A. He laughed. It was kind of a hysterical laugh in a way.
13 He was deeply, deeply hurt.
14 Q. Did he talk about his work that evening?
15 A. No, not really, except to say he had been working on
16 biological weapons at a very high level and here he was
17 being treated rather like a fly, really, I think was the
18 phrase he used.
19 Q. What was the general attitude to his work? Did he
20 believe he could make a difference?
21 A. He was quite modest about his work. He never boasted.
22 In our many years together he was not a boasting man, he
23 was a very shy, retiring guy and he just felt he could
24 make a small difference. At an international level that
25 really was quite enough for him. He felt that was
1 a good place to be.
2 Q. 15th July we know he goes off to the Foreign Affairs
4 A. That is right.
5 Q. Did you speak to him at all that day?
6 A. Later on. This was our 36th wedding anniversary so
7 I was constantly thinking of him all day. He rang that
8 evening and said it had been a total nightmare because
9 the times and dates had been switched and then switched
10 again and there had been a bomb scare, I think,
11 somewhere near the Houses of Parliament so it was
12 difficult for the car to drive him up and he had had to
13 run the gauntlet of the press. Certainly from the
14 television pictures I saw later he really did look very
15 stressed, I could see that.
16 Q. You have seen the television pictures?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You know him better than anyone. His appearance on
19 those pictures?
20 A. He looked very uncomfortable, very hot, very stressed.
21 Q. What did he say to you about the Foreign Affairs
22 Committee and how it had actually gone?
23 A. Very little. He felt that he had not done good justice
24 to himself. He felt that they had been -- I think it
25 was Andrew Mackinlay, he misunderstood it initially and
1 felt it was an insult, the comment about "you are chaff"
2 and the "fall guy". He was deeply offended about that
3 at the time. He did ask Bryan Wells later whether it
4 was intended as an insult because he could not believe
5 it. Bryan Wells said: certainly not, the first part was
6 a military term. But David -- that had upset him.
7 Q. And was there any other discussion about any other
8 Committees that he was going back to? You said there
9 had been some change in times?
10 A. That is right. He had said then that the next Committee
11 was going to be held the next day, though there had been
12 a possibility they were going to be both held on that
13 Tuesday. But he had said -- his final comment about the
14 Foreign Affairs Committee was that he just did not want
15 to know. He just -- he was in a nightmare position.
16 Q. He did not want to know or you did not want to know?
17 A. He said: I did not want to know. And that was something
18 he would say very infrequently but it just meant he
19 wanted to put that to one side and move on.
20 Q. And where does he spend the night on 15th July?
21 A. At my daughter Rachel's.
22 Q. So he is still at Rachel's?
23 A. Still at Rachel's.
24 Q. 16th July we know he goes off to the ISC.
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. Do you speak to him at all on that day?
2 A. Later on I meet up with him. I spend the day returning
3 from Cornwall by train, he having taken the car. I met
4 up with him, our daughter and her fiance at about 7.45.
5 Q. That is at Rachel's house?
6 A. That is at Rachel's house.
7 Q. Did you have anything to eat?
8 A. Yes, we had a meal together.
9 Q. How was he then?
10 A. He looked totally exhausted. He was able to converse
11 a little, but it was very, very strained. I felt he was
12 very, very tired. He was sort of used up. He said
13 that -- I asked him about the intelligence -- the ISC
14 Committee that day but he only said it had gone all
15 right. And that was not a phrase he would normally use.
16 He was obviously very stressed.
17 Q. And did you talk, at that stage, about the Foreign
18 Affairs Committee as well?
19 A. No, no. He was very withdrawn, very tired. I did not
20 seek to go over old ground at this stage.
21 Q. And did you talk about future plans, for example going
22 off to Iraq?
23 A. No, I had made the assumption that he would be going and
24 so did he at some point but there was no discussion
25 about that on this day.
1 Q. And after supper at Rachel's house, where did you go?
2 A. We then made our way home. He drove. Again he insisted
3 on driving home. He did not speak at all during that
4 journey. He was very tense and very, very tired.
5 Q. How long does the journey take from Rachel's place to
6 your home?
7 A. About 20 minutes.
8 Q. What happened when you got back home?
9 A. There was a great deal of post which he would normally
10 pick up and take into his study. He did not do that,
11 but he did go into his study to download e-mails so he
12 switched on his computer, downloaded e-mails. I am not
13 sure whether he actually answered any or deleted any.
14 He shortly went to bed. We were both very, very tired.
15 So within about half an hour or so he went off to bed.
16 Q. 17th July is a Thursday. What time did you get up that
18 A. About half past 8. It is rather later than normal. We
19 were both tired.
20 Q. How did he seem?
21 A. Tired, subdued, but not depressed. I have no idea. He
22 had never seemed depressed in all of this, but he was
23 very tired and very subdued.
24 Q. Did he have any work to do that day?
25 A. He said he had a report to write for the MoD. This is
1 the one that somebody on the Foreign Affairs Committee
2 referred to as his "homework" I think.
3 Q. Some Parliamentary Questions that were tabled?
4 A. That is right.
5 Q. How did he seem about that?
6 A. He just got on with it, basically.
7 Q. What time did he start work?
8 A. Probably about 9 o'clock, quarter to 9.
9 Q. Where physically did he work in the house?
10 A. In his study. It was a downstairs room to the left of
11 the front door, one side of the dining room.
12 Q. And what equipment did he have in the study?
13 A. He had a range of computers, laptops and his own
14 desk-top computer.
15 Q. So he had a desk-top with a stack and a --
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. -- and a printer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how many laptops did he have?
20 A. I do not know. I heard later there were seven. He
21 would often be given a laptop purely for one individual
22 discussion at the United Nations. If he was going to
23 interrogate somebody, for instance, they would give him
24 a laptop in order for that to go just on its own.
25 Q. He had a telephone in the study, did he?
1 A. Yes. He had a business line in there. The house line
2 also went in there and he had a mobile too.
3 Q. He had a mobile as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He went into his study I think you told us about
6 9 o'clock?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. Did he come out of his study at all?
9 A. He came out for coffee. We had a quick word.
10 Q. What time was that?
11 A. That would be about 11 I think, something of that order.
12 Q. Do you know whether he made any telephone calls that
14 A. Yes, he was certainly on the phone quite a bit I think,
15 not as much --
16 Q. Could you hear that?
17 A. Yes, I could hear the phone ringing from time to time,
18 but he picked it up. We did not actually sit together
19 to have coffee then and we did not really talk at that
21 Q. So after his coffee at 11 o'clock he went back to carry
23 A. He went back to carry on. I left the house for a few
24 minutes to meet somebody and pick up some photographs.
25 I came back, went into his study to try and lighten the
1 atmosphere a bit by showing him some photographs and
2 some other data I had got for the History Society. He
3 smiled, stood up and then said he had not quite
4 finished. But a few minutes later he went to sit in the
5 sitting room all by himself without saying anything,
6 which was quite unusual for him, but he went and sat in
7 the sitting room.
8 Q. And what time had you gone out to get the photographs?
9 A. Not absolutely certain, it was something like quarter to
10 12, I think.
11 Q. So if you were 10 minutes doing that, you must have been
12 back just shortly before 12, is that right?
13 A. I was a bit longer than that. I was about half an hour.
14 Q. So about a quarter past 12. When was he sitting in the
15 sitting room?
16 A. From about 12.30 I would think.
17 Q. Did he say anything?
18 A. No, he just sat and he looked really very tired. By
19 this time I had started with a huge headache and begun
20 to feel sick. In fact I was physically sick several
21 times at this stage because he looked so desperate.
22 Q. Did he have any lunch?
23 A. Yes, he did. I said to him -- he did not want any but
24 he did have some lunch. I made some sandwiches and he
25 had a glass of water. We sat together at the table
1 opposite each other. I tried to make conversation.
2 I was feeling pretty wretched, so was he. He looked
3 distracted and dejected.
4 Q. How would you describe him at this time?
5 A. Oh, I just thought he had a broken heart. He really was
6 very, very -- he had shrunk into himself. He looked as
7 though he had shrunk, but I had no idea at that stage of
8 what he might do later, absolutely no idea at all.
9 Q. And that was how he was looking and seeming to you. Did
10 you talk much at lunch?
11 A. No, no. He could not put two sentences together. He
12 could not talk at all.
13 Q. You said, I think, you were feeling unwell that day?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. What did you do?
16 A. I went to go and have a lie down after lunch, which is
17 something I quite often did just to cope with my
18 arthritis. I said to him, "What are you going to do?"
19 He said, "I will probably go for my walk".
20 Q. I think you told us you heard the phone ringing during
21 the day. Had you seen his reaction to any phone calls
22 during the day?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. You had only seen his reaction when he had gone into the
25 sitting room?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. And then at lunchtime?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. What time do you think you went upstairs, so far as you
5 can remember?
6 A. It would be about half past 1, quarter to 2 perhaps.
7 Q. Where was he at that time?
8 A. He went into his study. Then shortly after I had laid
9 down he came to ask me if I was okay. I said: yes,
10 I will be fine. And then he went to change into his
11 jeans. He would be around the house in a tracksuit or
12 tracksuit bottoms during the day. So he went to change
13 and put on his shoes. Then I assumed he had left the
15 Q. Because he was going for a walk?
16 A. That is right. He had intended to go for this regular
17 walk of his. He had a bad back so that was the strategy
18 for that.
19 Q. And did he, in fact, go straight off for his walk?
20 A. Well, the phone rang a little bit later on and I assumed
21 he had left so I suddenly realised I had not got
22 a cordless phone and I thought it might be an important
23 call for him, perhaps from the MoD. So I went
24 downstairs to find the telephone in the dining room. By
25 this time the ringing had stopped and I was aware of
1 David talking quietly on a phone. I said something
2 like: I thought you had gone out for a walk. He did not
3 respond of course because he was talking on the phone.
4 Q. Where was he at this time?
5 A. In his study.
6 Q. Do you know what time this was?
7 A. Not exactly, no. Getting on for 3, I would think.
8 Q. Do you know who the caller was?
9 A. I assumed it was the MoD, I am not sure.
10 Q. And did Dr Kelly go out for his walk?
11 A. Well, the phone rang again at about 3.20, after which --
12 it was a call for me -- a return call for me, and
13 I could not settle in bed so I got up at that stage and
14 I was aware that definitely David had left by this time.
15 Q. So he had gone?
16 A. He had gone by 3.20.
17 Q. So between 3 and 3.20 he had gone for a walk?
18 A. That is right, yes.
19 Q. And what were you doing for the rest of the day?
20 A. I was still feeling extremely ill so I went to sit in
21 the sitting room. I could not settle, I put the TV on,
22 which is unheard of for me at that time of the day.
23 There were a few callers at the front door. I answered
24 those and had a short chat with each of them. Then
25 I began to get rather worried because normally if David
1 was going for a longer walk, he would say. It was
2 a kind of family tradition, if you were going for
3 a longer walk you would say where you were going and
4 what time you would be back.
5 Q. He had not said?
6 A. He had not said that. He just said: I am going for my
8 Q. How long would a normal walk take?
9 A. About 15 minutes, depending if he met somebody, perhaps
10 20 minutes, 25 minutes.
11 Q. What time did you start to become concerned?
12 A. Probably late afternoon. Rachel rang, my daughter rang
13 to say: do not worry, he has probably gone out to have
14 a good think. Do not worry about it, he will be fine.
15 She had planned to come over that evening. She made
16 a decision definitely to come over. She arrived -- I am
17 not quite sure what time she arrived, half five,
18 six o'clock, I think. She went out. She said: I will
19 go and walk up and meet Dad. She walked up one of the
20 normal footpaths he would have taken -- in fact it was
21 the footpath he would have taken. She came back about
22 half an hour or so later.
23 Q. What time was this?
24 A. This must have been about 6.30 perhaps by now. I am not
25 sure of the times. I was in a terrible state myself by
1 this time trying not to think awful things and trying to
2 take each moment as it came.
3 Q. And Rachel gets back about 6.30.
4 A. Something like that.
5 Q. What does she say?
6 A. Then the phone rings and it is Sian, one of our other
7 daughters. She immediately says: I am coming over. So
8 she and her partner Richard set out by car from their
9 home near Fordingbridge to drive the distance. They
10 then spent the rest of the evening driving up and down
11 lanes, looking at churches, bus shelters, and so on,
12 looking for her father.
13 Q. What time did Sian and Richard arrive?
14 A. After 11 I believe.
15 Q. They had not seen Dr Kelly?
16 A. They had not seen him. Obviously it was very dark by
18 Q. What was decided to be done?
19 A. Well, we had delayed calling the police because we
20 thought we might make matters worse if David had
21 returned when we started to search. I felt he was
22 already in a difficult enough situation. So we put off
23 calling the police until about 20 to 12 at night.
24 Q. And who called the police?
25 A. I think it was Sian, I am not sure. It may have been
2 Q. The police are called. Do they turn up?
3 A. They turn up. Three of them come with a missing persons
4 form to fill in. I explained the situation that David
5 had been in and it seemed immediately to go up to
6 Chief Constable level.
7 Q. What time did the police arrive? The call I think you
8 told us was about 11.
9 A. Yes. Within 15 minutes they were there.
10 Q. Three turned up?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then it is referred up as far as you are aware?
13 A. Yes, it is referred up and the search begins. The
14 Thames Valley helicopter had gone off duty by that time
15 so they had to wait for the Benson helicopter to come
17 Q. That is RAF Benson, is it?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. So the helicopter was involved in searching?
20 A. Indeed it was, and tracker dogs too, I believe.
21 Q. Could you hear the helicopter?
22 A. Yes, it came and the police switched on their blue light
23 on their vehicles so it could pinpoint the position of
24 our house, the starting point for David's walk.
25 Q. What time did the helicopter start searching, do you
2 A. It must have been about 1 o'clock. I am not sure.
3 Q. How many police were there then?
4 A. Certainly the three were there. I think they may have
5 been joined by a couple more by this stage.
6 Q. Did you speak to the police at all during that night?
7 A. Yes, all night, all night. Then a vehicle arrived with
8 a large communication mast on it and parked in the road
9 and then during the early hours another mast, 45-foot
10 mast was put up in our garden.
11 Q. For police communications?
12 A. Yes, indeed. And a dog was put through our house. At
13 20 to 5 the following morning I was sitting on the lawn
14 in my dressing gown while the dog went through the
16 Q. Trying to --
17 A. Trying to establish that he was not there.
18 Q. Did you hear any other news?
19 A. Not initially, no. It was during the morning of the
20 Friday, I think, the 18th by now, that the police came
21 to inform us of David's death.
22 Q. We have heard about the circumstances of Dr Kelly's
23 death and the fact that a knife was used. Were you
24 shown the knife at all?
25 A. We were not shown the knife; we were shown a photocopy
1 of I presume the knife which we recognised as a knife he
2 had had for many years and kept in his drawer.
3 Q. It was a knife he had had what, from childhood?
4 A. From childhood I believe. I think probably from the
5 Boy Scouts.
6 Q. We have also heard that some co-proxamol was used.
7 A. Indeed.
8 Q. Do you take any medicine?
9 A. I do. I take co-proxamol for my arthritis.
10 Q. I think we are also going to hear that appears to be the
11 source of the co-proxamol that was used.
12 A. I had assumed that. I keep a small store in a kitchen
13 drawer and the rest in my bedside table.
14 Q. Is there anything else about the circumstances of
15 Dr Kelly's death that you can help his Lordship with?
16 A. No, except that he was totally devoted to his job. It
17 was rather muddling in the sense that he seemed to work
18 between lots of different places, but that suited his
19 style in a way, he liked to interact between lots of
20 different people. But, no, there is nothing else.
21 Q. I have just been asked to ask one thing. There was
22 a report in one of the newspapers yesterday that there
23 had been some rows; is there anything you would like to
24 say in relation to that?
25 A. Absolutely not. We did not row. If we had
1 a disagreement, we agreed to disagree. There was
2 absolutely no row whatsoever. I was in no physical
3 state anyway and neither was David. There was
4 absolutely no row.
5 Q. Finally, after Dr Kelly's death there were some reports
6 in the press about him being a Walter Mitty character.
7 What was your reaction to that?
8 A. I was devastated. That was totally the opposite. He
9 was a very modest, shy, retiring guy. I once saw him at
10 a meeting with the United Nations Association and his
11 body language was very sort of stiff. He was always
12 very courteous, very laid back if you like, but he kept
13 to his brief. He did not boast at all and he was very
14 factual and that is what he felt his job was. That is
15 what he tried always to be, to be factual.
16 Q. Is there anything else you would like to say?
17 A. Yes. Lord Hutton, on behalf of my family I would like
18 to thank you and your counsel for the dignified way in
19 which you are carrying out this Inquiry into my
20 husband's death. We would also like to acknowledge the
21 support our family have received from so many people all
22 over the country and elsewhere and, finally, may I take
23 this opportunity to ask the media to continue to respect
24 my family's privacy. We are a very private family.
25 Thank you.
1 LORD HUTTON: Mrs Kelly, thank you very much indeed. I am
2 most grateful for the very clear and very helpful way in
3 which you have given your evidence in circumstances
4 which I know, as does everyone, are very, very difficult
5 for you and your family. Thank you very much indeed.
6 A. Thank you, my Lord.
7 LORD HUTTON: I think this will be an appropriate time to
8 adjourn to give the stenographers a break for five
10 (11.35 am)
11 (Short Break)
12 (11.40 am)
13 MRS SARAH AMANDA PAPE (called)
14 Examined by MR KNOX
15 MR KNOX: My Lord, the next witness is Mrs Sarah Pape.
16 LORD HUTTON: Come and sit down please Mrs Pape.
17 MR KNOX: Mrs Pape could you tell the Inquiry your full name
18 and your occupation.
19 A. My name is Sarah Amanda Pape. I am a consultant plastic
21 Q. What relation were you to Dr Kelly?
22 A. I am his sister.
23 Q. And how often, over the last two years, would you see
24 him or talk to him?
25 A. In the last year I have spent two weekends with him and
1 his family. We would talk on the telephone at least
2 once a month.
3 Q. And what sort of things would you generally talk about?
4 A. Work in very general ways, where he was; my work quite
5 a lot. We would talk about family, in particular we
6 always talked about what the girls were doing, what his
7 daughters were doing.
8 Q. When he spoke about his work would he mention to you
9 anything that seemed like sensitive or confidential
11 A. Never. Never. I mean, for instance, the work that he
12 did in Russia we discussed within the last year, and
13 this is something that happened a decade or more ago;
14 and the circumstances of that were I saw an obituary in
15 The Telegraph and it was of a Russian microbiologist who
16 had defected and the next time we spoke on the phone
17 I said to him: well, did you know this chap? And he
18 said: I not only knew, him I spent weeks in a hotel
19 debriefing him when he defected. Now, nobody in my part
20 of the family knew anything about that at the time. He
21 just did not discuss it with us.
22 Q. That was work he had done in Russia in the late 1980s?
23 A. Well the debriefing was in this country. He then,
24 subsequent to that spent a lot of time in Russia.
25 Q. You obviously knew about his involvement as a UN weapons
1 inspector in Iraq, I take it?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Did you know anything about his politics or views about
5 A. We never ever discussed politics. I have no idea what
6 party he ever voted for or indeed whether he ever voted.
7 Q. Did you know about his conversion to the Baha'i faith
8 a few years ago?
9 A. Not directly from him. Janice his wife told Mum and she
10 told me in a rather roundabout way. We were intrigued
11 because he never did discuss this with us and the two of
12 us looked up some articles on the Baha'i faith to have
13 a better understanding. But he never discussed it. He
14 never brought up the subject and I most certainly would
15 not have brought up the subject with him.
16 Q. How would you describe Dr Kelly's character generally?
17 A. He was a very quiet person who interacted very well on
18 a one-to-one basis. If you were in the room with him
19 having a conversation, he would focus on you and
20 concentrate on what you were saying; and he often showed
21 an enormous amount of insight into what you were saying,
22 as though he had the ability to see beyond what you were
23 actually saying. He was a very astute person.
24 Q. Did you stay with Dr Kelly and his wife at all in 2002?
25 That is last year.
1 A. Yes, at the end of May 2002 my husband and I stayed with
2 them over one weekend.
3 Q. What did you discuss with Dr Kelly and his wife?
4 A. Well, we discussed lots of things. Can I just refer to
5 some notes that I made to remind myself about something?
6 LORD HUTTON: Yes, certainly.
7 A. We discussed various things; but one thing that came up
8 during that weekend was that he had quite a prolonged
9 and protracted, I think battle was the word he used with
10 his employers about the grading he should be working
11 under and the salary that went with it. He told me that
12 his main concern about this was that he had actually
13 just discovered that unlike universities, he was not
14 going to be retiring at 65 but at 60. He had not
15 realised that retirement was quite so soon and it had
16 occurred to him if he was not earning his full salary in
17 his last few years that that would affect his pension.
18 So we discussed this; and I was surprised to find
19 that he earned considerably less than I did, though
20 I considered that his work was in many ways of far more
21 value than some of the things that I did and certainly
22 his uniqueness I would have thought would have led to
23 him being on a higher salary than that.
24 But he also told me either that weekend or maybe it
25 was in a telephone conversation soon afterwards that
1 those issues were actually resolved and that he was
2 satisfied with the outcome -- I would not say that he
3 was happy with the outcome, but he felt that after
4 a long fight he had at least achieved something.
5 MR KNOX: I understand there are certain documents you would
6 like me just to take you to briefly. Could I ask you,
7 first of all, to go to MoD/3/7? It should show up on
8 your screen. This is an attachment, as I understand it,
9 to a letter that Dr Kelly wrote dated 26th April 2001;
10 and I understand that there is something that you would
11 like to mention at the foot of page 7 under the heading
12 "The Media", is that right?
13 A. Yes, this is really in the context not with his
14 regrading but with his actual position and his
15 responsibilities at work. We had a conversation, it was
16 actually earlier this year; and he was talking about his
17 involvement with journalists and the media. My bosses
18 are quite sensitive about us talking to the media and
19 I expressed my surprise and said that I did not realise
20 that, you know, he was allowed to speak so freely to the
21 press, and I may have expressed my concern in a sort of
22 "are you allowed to?" kind of way. He reassured me
23 completely and he said: it is my job. It is part of my
24 job. It is what I am expected to do. It is all above
25 board. Everybody knows I do it. You know this is one
1 of the things I am paid to do. He certainly said it in
2 a way that fully assured me that this was all
4 Q. So to stop you there, this conversation took place
5 roughly when?
6 A. Almost certainly this was the weekend of his daughter's
7 wedding, which would be the weekend of
8 22nd/23rd February this year, 2003.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. I asked to bring this document up, amongst others,
11 because it was on the website I think from 11th August,
12 it was presented as one of the pieces of evidence for
13 that day; and I was reading it through and I thought
14 that it was confirming what we had discussed, that here
15 was a letter he had written some time before, querying
16 his career grading and his salary. He had attached, if
17 you like, a small CV and it included his contact with
18 the media, featured contributions and unattributable
20 When I read that, I thought, you know, it was all
21 above board. It was all legitimate because there it is
22 in a document some two years old.
23 Q. I think also the same point might be the point you want
24 to make out of the document at MoD/3/8?
25 A. Yes, that is -- sorry --
1 Q. This is an annual review?
2 A. Yes, is this the handwritten one?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I think that dates from 2000.
5 Q. That is right.
6 A. I am not sure whose handwriting it is, but again it
7 refers to media contact. I think this is the first page
8 of the document. It is headed "Annual Review DIRA".
9 The penultimate sentence is:
10 "He has also provided press and TV interviews.
11 Dr Kelly is stated to be the expert of choice."
12 Q. Finally another document you wanted to draw attention to
13 is at MoD/3/14?
14 A. That is right. This is actually a more recent document.
15 This is signed off, I think, on 12th April this year.
16 So this occurs after the conversation that we had; and
17 again I found this document on the Hutton Inquiry
18 website but I do not think it was referred to in this
19 context on that day. And certainly again on the first
20 page, "Statement of your roles and responsibilities",
21 the third item is:
22 "Communicating Iraq issues to the media and
24 This form I believe was signed off by his line
25 manager Dr Bryan Wells.
1 On page 4 of that document, MoD/3/17, the last
2 comment, "Managers' comments":
3 "David has lectured widely on Iraqi weapons of mass
4 destruction issues, is much sought for attendance at
5 international conferences and as appropriate has
6 provided media briefings."
7 Q. Was there anything else on these documents you wanted to
8 draw attention to?
9 A. No, just that I felt in many ways my brother is being
10 portrayed as some kind of a mole who was leaking
11 information and I think it is just worth emphasising
12 that it was a very integral part of his job to be
13 briefing the media.
14 Q. You mentioned seeing Dr Kelly in May 2002.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Between May 2002 and February 2003, what contact did you
17 have with him?
18 A. We had telephone conversations frequently, at least once
19 a month, usually at his instigation. In years gone by
20 it would have been me phoning him, but more recently,
21 with him being away so much, if I rang I would not get
22 to speak to him so he would more often ring me when he
23 was at home, usually over a weekend because that was
24 a time when we could both be expected to be at home.
25 Q. What sort of subjects did you talk about?
1 A. The usual sort of family news, interchange of
2 information between sort of my side of the family and
3 his side. But one of the things we talked about a lot,
4 and I think he may have talked about this with me more
5 than with other members of the family, was the fact that
6 he really did not want to retire at 60. He had taken
7 that really as quite surprising news. He really thought
8 he was going to work until he was 65 and was quite
9 dismayed at the thought that come 60 he would be mowing
10 his lawn every day.
11 Q. Was there any particular aspect which concerned him
12 about retiring at 60?
13 A. One was his feeling that there was still an awful lot of
14 work to be done in Iraq in uncovering the weapons of
15 mass destruction that he was absolutely convinced were
16 buried in the sand in the desert in some way or
17 concealed in some way. He very much had the feeling he
18 had not completed the job that he went out to do as a UN
19 weapons inspector.
20 Q. And did he actually talk about going back to Iraq?
21 A. Yes, he did, frequently.
22 Q. Was this something which he wanted to do or just felt he
23 ought to do?
24 A. Desperately wanted to do. He desperately wanted to go
25 back to Iraq and to finish the job which he had started
1 and which he felt he was in the best place to do.
2 I think he felt he carried an awful lot of thoughts and
3 information in his mind that were not written down, so
4 for him to direct other people to go would be much more
5 difficult than just to go back and check all the places
6 he had always had his suspicions about. He never felt
7 that they had been totally honest with them when he had
8 done his inspections.
9 Q. When you say they, the Iraqis?
10 A. The Iraqis, yes. He thought they were masters at hiding
11 things but he had some pretty good ideas where he would
12 go if he was given free rein to do so.
13 Q. When was the last time you saw Dr Kelly?
14 A. That would have been the weekend of Ellen's wedding.
15 Q. And that was I think the 21st and?
16 A. 22nd February was the day of the wedding. We travelled
17 down, my husband and I, the day before. We had a meal
18 with the family and with Jeremy, that is Ellen's
19 husband's, family. Then there was the wedding on the
20 Saturday. We stayed over both Friday and Saturday
21 nights in a hotel just a few hundred yards from their
22 house. So we spent all day Saturday with them, and we
23 stayed until about mid-afternoon on Sunday. Janice
24 provided lunch at the house and a big crowd of us went
25 back to the house as well that day.
1 Q. How was Dr Kelly?
2 A. He was in absolutely tremendous form, as most men would
3 be at their daughter's wedding. He was proud of his
4 daughter. He was relaxed, he was cheerful. He was
5 entertaining. He gave a wonderful speech at the
6 reception. He was in as good shape as I had ever seen
8 Q. Was there anything in particular you spoke about?
9 A. That was the occasion when we spoke about his media
10 contacts and then he reassured me that was just part of
11 his job, that that was not anything I was to worry
12 about. He also did not give me much detail, but he did
13 say that he hoped that he might be allowed to stay on
14 after 60, that the MoD would not insist on him retiring
15 if there was still work that he could do. And we also
16 talked about -- well, I had said to him, I think: is
17 there anything else that you could do? You have so much
18 information, are there any other jobs that you could do
19 to fill in another five years or so? He did say that he
20 had been invited to consider working in the
21 United States, though I cannot remember any detail about
22 what sort of work that would have been. I suspect he
23 did not tell me.
24 Q. Did he express any financial worries about retiring
1 A. No, none at all. He was kind of concerned that he
2 might, through his own lack of interest in chasing
3 finances, that he might have left himself short by not
4 insisting on regular reviews of his grading. But he did
5 not imply that would in any way financially embarrass
6 him, just that he realised you cannot keep putting these
7 things off for ever.
8 Q. We have heard evidence from Mr David Broucher who
9 believes he may have had a meeting with your brother at
10 the end of February. I think you have mentioned that
11 this wedding took place on 22nd February.
12 A. Hmm, hmm.
13 Q. Saturday 22nd. And we know as I understand it he flew
14 off somewhere on 23rd February. Can you remember where
15 he was flying to?
16 A. On the Sunday evening he said he was flying to New York.
17 That usually meant he was doing United Nations business.
18 He flew out on the evening flight on the Sunday which
19 would have meant he would have arrived in the States on
20 Monday morning.
21 Q. Do you know where he went after that?
22 A. I do not but he certainly did not mention he was going
23 to be flying almost straight back to visit Geneva, which
24 is what I understand David Broucher said in his
25 evidence, that I think on the Wednesday or Thursday they
1 had a meeting in Geneva. That was certainly not
2 mentioned and I would be rather surprised if he turned
3 around quite so quickly.
4 Q. Can I come on to more recent events? We know that
5 Andrew Gilligan made a report on the Today Programme on
6 29th May saying he had spoken to a source who had given
7 him certain information. Did you hear that report by
8 Mr Gilligan?
9 A. No, I do not listen to the Today Programme and so I was
10 not aware of anything at that stage.
11 Q. There was, after that, quite a rumpus in the press about
12 the Gilligan story. Do you recall seeing anything about
14 A. I know that I eventually became aware of it, but
15 I suspect this was several weeks after it first came out
16 in the media. Again, I do not read The Mail on Sunday
17 and nobody brought it to my attention. So I certainly
18 was not aware, initially, that there was this story
19 going about.
20 Q. When you first became aware of this story, would you be
21 able to say roughly when that was?
22 A. Probably around the middle of June.
23 Q. Did you talk to your brother at all about it?
24 A. No. I did not speak to my brother from the Sunday after
25 the wedding until later on in July. As I said, mostly
1 he initiated telephone calls. I did speak to both
2 Rachel and Ellen, his daughters, during that time,
3 because we were trying to arrange for them all to come
4 and stay at my house; and they mentioned that he was
5 away a lot. So I did not see any point in me ringing
6 him because the chances were I was not going to reach
7 him anyway. So I just waited for the phone call that
8 I assumed would happen when he had time to talk.
9 Q. We know that on 8th July the Ministry of Defence put out
10 a press announcement saying that an official had come
11 forward saying he had spoken to Mr Gilligan. Did you
12 hear about that press announcement on 8th July or
13 9th July?
14 A. I may have been aware of it. I certainly had become
15 aware, as I say, between maybe the middle of June and
16 July that there was a story that involved an apparent
17 leakage of information to the press, to do with the
18 September dossier; and I remember saying to my husband:
19 I hope that that source is not the person that we know.
20 But it was more along the lines of if a friend told me
21 they were driving to London tomorrow and I heard there
22 had been an accident on the M1, I might think: well
23 I hope they were not involved. I really did not have
24 any idea that it would be him. I happen to know one
25 person who knew about weapons of mass destruction in
1 Iraq. I did not have any more reason to suppose it was
2 him than that.
3 Q. On 10th July Dr Kelly was named in the press as the
4 source for Mr Gilligan's story. Were you aware of that
5 at the time?
6 A. I was. I was at work that day, working in my office,
7 and my mobile phone rang and my husband had just picked
8 up the newspaper and he rang me to say -- I believe that
9 was the day that his name was in the press and he rang
10 me to say that it was there and that I should be aware
11 of this. I would not normally read the newspaper until
12 I got home in the evening.
13 Q. What did you then do once your husband had told you
14 about this?
15 A. I actually went on the Internet to the Daily Telegraph
16 website so that I could read the article -- actually
17 I think I went to the shop in the hospital but there was
18 not a Telegraph left so I went and found it on the
19 Internet so that I could read it.
20 Q. Having read the article, did you try to contact your
22 A. I did. I tried to ring him that evening when I got
23 home. I think I phoned once or twice. The house phone
24 did not have an answer machine on it so I could not
25 leave a message. I did know that he would know, if he
1 was in the house, that I was ringing because their
2 telephone displays the number that is ringing. And
3 I presumed that either he knew it was me and was not
4 going to answer the phone or that he was not there.
5 Q. Did you try him on his mobile phone?
6 A. I did not. I had lost his mobile phone. I replaced my
7 own mobile and that was the only place the number was
8 recorded and the number never got transferred to my new
10 Q. E-mailing, did you try that?
11 A. I did try e-mailing him. I believe it was on the
12 Friday. I e-mailed to an address his wife had given me
13 but the e-mail bounced back later that day as "address
14 not recognised".
15 Q. What about his daughters? Did you try to contact him
16 through them?
17 A. On the Thursday evening I telephoned Rachel and left
18 a message on her answer machine asking her to ring me
19 and let me know how her dad was. I also rang Ellen,
20 although I realised after I had left the message that it
21 was actually an old telephone number, it was not her
22 current number.
23 Q. So there was no contact between you and Dr Kelly?
24 A. There was no contact on the Thursday or through the day
25 on the Friday.
1 Q. What did you do on the Friday, that is Friday 11th July?
2 A. I went to work as normal. As I say, I did e-mail Janice
3 but the e-mail came back later in the day. I thought:
4 well, he will ring me. I was pretty sure he would ring
5 me. Indeed he did ring me some time after 9 pm on the
7 Q. Roughly how did the conversation go?
8 A. As always, he never said who it was phoning. He
9 actually had a very distinctive voice. He just said:
10 "Hello Sarah". He did not even say "it's me". He
11 explained -- I think he said: "I presume you have heard
12 the news", to which I of course said yes. And he
13 explained that the MoD press office had given him a sort
14 of five minute warning to leave the house because the
15 press were on their way. He said it had actually taken
16 then 10 minutes to pack but they had then left and gone
17 to stay with friends.
18 Q. Did he say where he was ringing from?
19 A. No he did not. I assumed he was ringing on his mobile
20 phone and I thought if I look on the caller display,
21 I will be able to pick up his mobile phone number which
22 I had lost and would have it back. When I looked at the
23 caller display, I realised it was actually a land line
24 and an STD code I did not recognise. We have a small
25 book that gives all the STD codes in it and I looked it
1 up and realised it was a number in Mevagissey.
2 I suddenly realised then that Janice had friends who had
3 a holiday cottage in Mevagissey and I thought that is
4 very logical, that is where they have gone. That would
5 have been a very sensible place to go to hide from the
6 press for a few days. So I was actually quite
7 reassured. He said Janice was with him. I felt he was
8 in the best place at that time.
9 Q. Did he say anything about the MoD in that conversation?
10 A. No. Apart from saying that the press office had
11 informed him the press were on their way, no, we had no
12 other conversation about the Ministry of Defence as
13 such. He explained he would have to appear before the
14 Foreign Affairs Committee on the Tuesday; and he also
15 said he would be appearing before an Intelligence
16 Committee on the same day. He explained that the
17 Foreign Affairs Committee would be a public hearing and
18 that it would be televised or would be likely to be
19 televised but that the other Committee meeting would be
20 held in private and that there would not be a public
21 report because that Committee only reported to the
22 Prime Minister.
23 Q. Did he express any concern about either of these
25 A. Not to me, no.
1 Q. What did you say to him when he mentioned he was
2 appearing in front of these Committees?
3 A. I reassured him that he had my full support. I told him
4 that I had been in touch with Mum and with my brother
5 and sister and that we were all 100 per cent -- I think
6 I may have even have said 110 per cent behind him and
7 that everybody sent their love.
8 Q. How did Dr Kelly seem to be in this conversation? Was
9 he his normal self?
10 A. He sounded a little tired but other than that he sounded
11 his normal self.
12 Q. Did you speak to Dr Kelly over the weekend at all? That
13 would be the 12th and 13th July.
14 A. I do not remember speaking to him over the weekend.
15 I know Janice this morning said she thought I had phoned
16 over the weekend. I do not remember another
17 conversation over that weekend. I may have spoken to
18 Rachel but I do not remember speaking to my brother
20 Q. We know Dr Kelly appeared in front of the Foreign
21 Affairs Committee on 15th July. Did you speak to him
22 before that appearance?
23 A. No, I do not recall any conversation between the one on
24 the Friday evening -- that conversation ended when he
25 promised to ring me on the Tuesday evening after he had
1 been in front of the Committee.
2 Q. Just before we get to that, his evidence in front of the
3 Committee was televised. Did you follow either the
4 televised hearing or any other broadcast?
5 A. Not as it was happening, no. I was on call that week
6 and I was very busy. I did manage to get to my office
7 at about 5 o'clock and I switched the radio on. I just
8 heard the headlines, nothing more than that. I did not
9 even hear the report that followed. I just heard the
10 headlines on the radio.
11 Q. Was your brother mentioned in the headlines at all?
12 A. He was mentioned in the headlines. I cannot remember in
13 exactly what terms. I felt that it sounded as though he
14 was not being rubbished, that he was not being sort of
15 held to be a guilty party. So I thought that was more
16 positive than it might have been.
17 Q. Did you then speak to your brother afterwards, on this
19 A. Yes. As normal I rang my husband on the mobile phone as
20 I was leaving. Because I was on call, you never know
21 when you are going to get away. So I rang to say I was
22 just about to get into the car to drive home. He told
23 me that Rachel my niece had phoned and that my brother
24 was staying with her and that I should call him as soon
25 as I got home.
1 Q. And so you rang, presumably, Rachel's house?
2 A. Yes, I did ring. There was a bit of confusion initially
3 because when I checked the number Rachel had called from
4 it was actually my brother's home number. So I rang
5 that number initially but there was no reply, and then
6 my husband explained no, that that was where Rachel had
7 rung from but in fact my brother was at her house. So
8 I rang him straight away. I remember it was almost as
9 soon as I came in the door. I had not even taken my
10 jacket off or changed my shoes, which I would normally
11 do when I got home.
12 Q. He was there when you rang?
13 A. He picked up the telephone on about the second ring and
14 he said "David Kelly", which I did think was a little
15 strange to say in someone else's house, but that was the
16 way he would answer the telephone normally.
17 Q. Can you remember what you spoke about in this
19 A. Yes. Bearing in mind I have heard nothing except the
20 headlines on the radio, I largely listened to what he
21 had to say about the day. So I asked him how it had
22 gone and he explained actually in extraordinary detail
23 what had happened that day.
24 He explained that he had been led to think that the
25 Intelligence Committee meeting would be the first one
1 and I understood him to say that was going to be held in
2 the Cabinet Office. So they went, I believe, to
3 Downing Street for that meeting. He said that they were
4 obviously expected because coffee was provided; and they
5 sort of sat down to wait and then somebody came and
6 said: no, no, this meeting has been cancelled until
7 tomorrow. You have to go to Parliament for the Foreign
8 Affairs Committee. Initially they said a car would be
9 provided but then there was a bomb alert, I believe, in
10 Whitehall and so they were not able to -- the car was
11 not able to meet them.
12 So he described his journey, it was up to
13 Trafalgar Square and down Pall Mall on foot in a hurry
14 because he was going to be late. So he arrived in
15 a fairly flustered state, hot -- I believe it was a hot
16 day that day, and not as calm as he would have hoped
17 because of this trek that they had had to do at speed
18 down to the House of Commons.
19 Q. Did he say anything about the atmosphere at the Foreign
20 Affairs Committee hearing?
21 A. He said that it was extremely hot; that many people took
22 their jackets off but he did not want to because he was
23 sweating so much. He was a man who would often stay in
24 a jacket in a formal situation like that. I have seen
25 him lecture at scientific meetings and he would normally
1 keep his jacket on. He said that it was very noisy
2 because there were fans, not air conditioning but just
3 room fans and that he found it quite difficult to hear
4 some of the questions and he was asked more than once to
5 speak up because he could not be heard.
6 Q. Did he say anything to you about the questions that had
7 been asked of him?
8 A. I asked him about the questions. He said he really
9 could not remember an awful lot about many of the
10 questions; but there were one or two questions in
11 particular that he did recall. One -- and bearing in
12 mind I do not know what has been said, I am very much
13 just listening and not really understanding everything
14 he is saying at this stage. He said that one of the
15 questions that really threw him was about a conversation
16 he was supposed to have had with Susan Watts; and he
17 really could not understand where the quotes were coming
18 from that were supposed to have been made by him. At
19 that stage, I did not understand what he meant by that.
20 But I did listen to some of the transcripts later --
21 Q. Listened on television?
22 A. On the television. I did later on -- within the next
23 few days I did look at that on the Parliament website,
24 the uncorrected transcript of that day was released; and
25 I looked through that wondering what it was that he had
1 found extraordinary about it. I did actually find
2 something that I felt, knowing my brother, I understood
3 how it did not fit into the context.
4 Q. Can I just ask you to look at FAC/1/65, which I think
5 might be what you are referring to?
6 A. It is question 22, which was asked him by Mr Chidgey.
7 Q. I think that is right.
8 A. I will just find it myself because I think it is quite
9 important to actually see the exact words.
10 Q. At the foot of the page.
11 A. Yes. Mr Chidgey says:
12 "I just want to move on to the section of our
13 inquiry dealing with contacts with Andrew Gilligan and
14 journalists, but before we talk about Andrew Gilligan
15 can I just confirm that you have also met Susan Watts?"
16 My brother replies:
17 "I have met her on one occasion."
18 Mr Chidgey then quotes, at some length, a quote that
19 he believes my brother made.
20 Q. This is FAC/1/66. You see the quote at question 23 and
21 then the question in the final sentence:
22 "I understand from Miss Watts that is the record of
23 a meeting that you had with her. Do you still agree
24 with those comments?"
25 A. My brother replies:
1 "First of all, I do not recognise those comments,
2 I have to say. The meeting I had with her was on
3 November 5 last year [that would have been 2002] and
4 I remember that precisely because I gave a presentation
5 in the Foreign Office on Iraq's weapons of mass
6 destruction. I cannot believe that on that occasion
7 I made that statement."
8 He is obviously remembering a face to face meeting,
9 I think the only face to face meeting he had with
10 Susan Watts. Knowing my brother, I can imagine he would
11 have focused very much on a picture in his mind on the
12 situation. It was at the end of a seminar, they were
13 introduced I believe by Patrick Lamb and he remembered
14 meeting her; and he cannot believe that those words are
15 words he is supposed to have said on that day. And of
16 course nobody specifically tells him where the quotes
17 came from.
18 Then the next question, question 24, Mr Chidgey does
20 "That is very helpful. Can I just be clear on this:
21 I understand that those notes refer to meetings that
22 took place shortly before the Newsnight broadcasts that
23 would have been on 2 and 4 June."
24 My brother replies:
25 "I have only met Susan Watts on one occasion, which
1 was not on a one-to-one basis, it was at the end of
2 a public presentation."
3 I know from conversations that we have had in the
4 past that he very much used the word to mean what it
5 meant. He was a scientist, first and foremost, but he
6 and I, over the years, have done a lot of scientific
7 writing and we have had discussions about how you have
8 to use the word as it was meant to be used and that
9 sometimes you agonise for days over getting just the
10 right word to convey something; and I remember
11 a discussion about writing material and handing it to
12 your supervisor to read through and being very upset
13 when they changed certain key words that you had
14 agonised over.
15 I believe that when he is thinking about meetings he
16 is thinking about face to face meetings; so although
17 Mr Chidgey is trying to push him towards thinking that
18 this happened more recently, there was not a more recent
19 face to face meeting, so he really does not recall it.
20 I understand that the quotations came from the
21 recorded telephone conversation --
22 Q. That is what you now understand?
23 A. -- which of course he did not know was being recorded.
24 Susan Watts said that in her evidence. So I just
25 believe he has not triggered that conversation in his
1 memory. So he really feels that this is not him that is
2 being quoted, or certainly not at that time.
3 Q. How did he explain to you his reaction when he heard
5 A. He was just perplexed and he did not have an
6 explanation. He just said he could not understand how
7 that could have been him.
8 Q. And that is what he told you?
9 A. Yes. Of course, I had not got any of this detail in
10 front of me. I just recall that was one element of the
11 conversation we had.
12 Q. Can you recall any other elements of the conversation
13 about the question of sources and things?
14 A. Yes, one of the things I had picked up on the headline
15 news was that the conclusion was that he probably was
16 not -- I think the expression then was used "the main
17 source". My brother did say: I cannot see how I can be
18 the single source. Again he did not explain in any
19 detail, so I can only say what I have noticed myself
20 that seemed to be discrepancies between the story that
21 was broadcast and published by Andrew Gilligan and my
22 brother's recollection as stated in various documents
23 that have been on the website.
24 Q. I think it has been suggested you would like to draw
25 the Inquiry's attention to question 66 which appears at
1 FAC/1/74 which is on this question of the source.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The question by Mr Pope near the top of the page.
4 A. Mr Pope says:
5 "Did you begin your conversation with Mr Gilligan by
6 discussing the poor state of Britain's railways?"
7 My brother replies: "No".
8 Apparently this is a quote from the Mail on Sunday
9 article that said he started off by moaning about the
10 railways. I note Mr Gilligan did state in his evidence
11 I believe both to the FAC and to this Inquiry that it
12 was Mr Gilligan who was delayed by the trains. My
13 brother was already in London on that day; and I believe
14 that is the sort of small talk that he really would not
15 take much account of. He was not very good at small
16 talk, and I simply think that he did not recall any
17 conversation about the railways, certainly not
18 a significant enough one to put in a newspaper article.
19 I think that was the sort of thing that made him think:
20 well, this was not me. We did not talk about railways.
21 Q. Was there any discussion in this conversation about who
22 else might be the source if he was not?
23 A. Well, we did. That was initiated by me because again
24 I am working blind, I do not know what has been said
25 that afternoon. I said: well, if it is not you, who
1 else might it be? He said that he did not know. I told
2 him about something I had read in the Sunday Telegraph
3 that Sunday which I think was 13th July; and I said, you
4 know: is it even possible that this could be somebody
5 much higher up than you who has been giving information
6 to the press? And he was a bit noncommittal on that.
7 I told him what I recollected from that article,
8 which was that a BBC reporter had been seen leaving
9 Jack Straw's office and that some time later that
10 evening there was a report on the BBC News which quoted
11 a source at the very top of the Government; and I said:
12 you do not think it is Jack Straw who has been leaking
13 the stories? He said: well, that is a very interesting
14 thought, I suppose it is possible but I really do not
15 know, or words to that effect.
16 Q. Had you ever talked with him about Jack Straw before?
17 A. We had, on a couple of occasions. My brother had rung
18 me in 2002 -- it would have been in September 2002 -- to
19 say: if you are watching the news tomorrow evening you
20 might just spot me because I am accompanying Jack Straw
21 to a committee. I did not know which one then but
22 I believe it was the Foreign Affairs Committee. And
23 I did watch the news and I did glimpse a rear view of
24 him sitting beside Jack Straw. I think we had also
25 talked about him when Jack Straw was first appointed as
1 Foreign Secretary; and my brother had said: well it is
2 interesting because we were contemporaries at Leeds
3 University. He said: well, he will not remember me
4 because I was not a political animal, I did not move in
5 the same circles, but I remember him from my time as
6 a student.
7 Q. Did your brother say anything else about the questions
8 he had been asked at the Foreign Affairs Committee?
9 A. He did, and again remembering that I have not watched
10 anything or heard very much at this stage. He said that
11 he had had some fairly searching questions from "a man
12 on my left". I presume from having seen the video tapes
13 that he was talking about Mr Mackinlay. He did not say
14 it in any great detail and he kind of gave me the
15 impression that he understood what this man's line of
16 questioning was about, as though he was deliberately
17 trying to rattle him but he had sort of worked out in
18 advance that that was just a technique he was using.
19 He did not seem to be distressed by that line of
20 questioning, although when I watched it myself later on,
21 I thought: well if you were not distressed by that,
22 I think I would have been.
23 Q. What did you say in this conversation about giving
24 support and things like that?
25 A. Well, again, I reiterated that I was fully and
1 completely supporting him; I think I used the terms:
2 "whatever the outcome". I knew then he still had to
3 appear before the Intelligence Committee the next day.
4 I again said that Mum and my brother and sister were
5 fully supportive of him; and I was concerned about the
6 press intrusion that meant that he was not able to
7 return to his own home; and I invited him more than once
8 to come and stay with me if that would help. Where
9 I live is fairly remote. It is half a mile to the
10 nearest road. We could have kept the press thoroughly
11 at bay. I certainly made him fully aware if he needed
12 somewhere to escape he could come to me.
13 Q. Did he say anything to the effect that he was in trouble
14 or might be in trouble?
15 A. No, he did not. I do not think he would have told me
16 had he been. He would not have wanted to worry me.
17 Q. Did he give the impression he might be thinking of
18 taking legal action of any sort?
19 A. Well, he did make a comment that at the time I did not
20 question him about but afterwards struck me as being
21 a little odd. He said, when I offered my support and
22 the rest of the family's support, he said that he had
23 been overwhelmed by the number of people who had phoned
24 him, friends and colleagues, who had phoned to give
25 their support. He said: some of them are talking about
1 setting up a fighting fund. It was only afterwards that
2 I thought, what a strange thing to have said.
3 When I thought about it, I presumed if he needed
4 legal assistance in an industrial tribunal or if he was
5 going to be sued under the Official Secrets Act or
6 something, that might have been what he meant. I did
7 not question him and it was only afterwards I thought it
8 was a slightly odd thing to say. Equally, it made me
9 think he was in fighting mode, that he would fight to
10 protect his reputation and his employment.
11 Q. How did he seem generally to be in this conversation?
12 A. Tired, but otherwise it really was a very normal
13 conversation. Believe me, I have lain awake many nights
14 since, going over in my mind whether I missed anything
15 significant. In my line of work I do deal with people
16 who may have suicidal thoughts and I ought to be able to
17 spot those, even on a telephone conversation. But
18 I have gone over and over in my mind the two
19 conversations we had and he certainly did not betray to
20 me any impression that he was anything other than tired.
21 He certainly did not convey to me that he was feeling
22 depressed; and absolutely nothing that would have
23 alerted me to the fact that he might have been
24 considering suicide.
25 Q. Did you speak to him about any of your own matters at
1 all? I am not asking you to go into detail.
2 A. Yes, I had had some concerns at work just the previous
3 week, and I think I rather selfishly put it: well, if it
4 is any consolation we all have a few problems at the
5 minute. I explained to him in rather general terms what
6 had happened. He was very sympathetic and he asked me
7 a number of questions about what I had said, which made
8 me think he was concentrating on what I was saying, that
9 he was concerned for me, and that he understood what
10 I was going through as well. He certainly did not
11 appear to be sort of distracted and preoccupied with his
12 own thoughts to the exclusion of my concerns.
13 Q. Was there anything else in particular in this
14 conversation you would like to mention?
15 A. No. The only thing was that the final sort of passing
16 part of the conversation was that I made him promise me,
17 absolutely promise me that he would ring me the next day
18 because if he did not I would worry.
19 Q. And what did he say to that?
20 A. And he said yes, he would ring me the next day, which
21 would have been the Wednesday, to report back on how he
22 was after the Intelligence Committee meeting.
23 Q. How long was this conversation, roughly?
24 A. It is always difficult to time a conversation, but
25 compared with the Friday conversation it was a much
1 lengthier conversation. I would say 15 to 20 minutes,
2 maybe even longer than that.
3 Q. We know that the Foreign Affairs Committee hearing was
4 televised. I think you have indicated you actually did
5 look at the broadcast.
6 A. Yes. Then, through that evening, I watched it almost
7 certainly on Sky News, possibly on one of the other 24
8 news channels.
9 Q. How did your brother seem on that?
10 A. I thought that he performed really quite well, given the
11 circumstances. I thought that he kept his cool. He had
12 this problem that they were asking him to speak up
13 a number of times. That was just how he was. He was
14 quietly spoken. I have heard him lecture on at least
15 two occasions and I can remember on one occasion in
16 a bigger room that he had to be asked to speak up. It
17 was something we had discussed because I often have the
18 same problem myself. I think I am shouting but the
19 people at the back certainly cannot hear me. So I did
20 not think that that was unusual.
21 I thought he seemed exasperated at times. There was
22 a question that was asked and he replied. Then there
23 was a follow-on question and he sort of sighed and
24 looked down and said "I did not say that" or "that is
25 not what I said" as though he was exasperated that
1 people were not listening or were trying to misconstrue
2 what he said or put words in his mouth or whatever.
3 I thought he looked rather a forlorn figure sitting
4 there on his own, compared with when I had seen him
5 previously supporting Jack Straw where they sat in
6 a line, side by side. But I did not really notice
7 anything else in his behaviour that would have alarmed
9 Q. Moving on to the next day, 16th July, Wednesday. Your
10 brother goes to the Intelligence and Security Committee
11 hearing. Did you in fact speak to him on that day?
12 A. No, he did not ring me. As I say, in fact, I was on
13 call that week and I was extremely busy and it was after
14 midnight before I got home. I was concerned that he was
15 going to ring and that I would not be there and I had
16 made him promise to ring and I was upset that I was
17 going to miss him, and I rang home some time during
18 that -- my own home -- during that evening to explain
19 that I was delayed and to explain to my brother if he
20 rang that I was delayed.
21 When I got in my husband was still up and he said:
22 no, he had not phoned and he had checked the caller
23 display in case he had phoned when he had been out
24 walking the dog but there had not been a missed call or
25 anything. I was not too concerned because I was more
1 relieved he had not rung and found me not there. I just
2 presumed that he would ring me the next evening.
3 Q. That would be the Thursday evening?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you in fact have any contact with your brother on
6 Thursday 17th July?
7 A. No. I was in more promptly that evening. He did not
8 ring. I know there were no missed calls again that
9 night. I was rather more concerned that he had not
10 rung, but I was very tired having had a disturbed night
11 the night before. I thought he was probably also
12 feeling tired; and I thought he would perhaps ring me
13 over the weekend by which time I would not be on call
14 and that might be a more appropriate time to have
15 a longer conversation. I was a little anxious that he
16 had not rung. I thought perhaps he had just forgotten
17 he had promised to ring me.
18 Q. When did you in fact next hear about your brother?
19 A. I took a telephone call around 6.30 on the Friday
20 morning. It did not surprise me too much. I was on
21 call. It is not unusual for people to ring me at that
22 time in the morning to tell me of patients that might
23 have been admitted overnight.
24 In fact it was my niece Sian who rang. She told me
25 that my brother was missing, that he had gone for a walk
1 the previous day and had not returned. I immediately
2 assumed that he had fallen ill, maybe had a heart attack
3 or broken his ankle or something. That was my first
4 thought, was that there would be a simple explanation,
5 he would be found safe and well. I certainly did not
6 for a moment think that there might be a more sinister
7 explanation for his absence.
8 Q. Then later on in the day you found out what had
10 A. Yes. I did half wonder whether he might have, for some
11 reason, set off to come and visit me. We had had this
12 conversation, I had said: if it all gets too much you
13 just come to me. But when I heard he did not have his
14 car keys and his car was still there and did not seem to
15 have taken any money, I thought it was less likely that
16 would happen. Because I was on call and because we had
17 been extraordinarily busy that week, I really felt I had
18 to go to work although I did not want to go to work,
19 I would rather have stayed at home by the phone in case
20 there was any news. But there were patients that really
21 I had to go and deal with so I went into work that
23 Between operations I went back to my office and
24 checked to see whether there were messages on my mobile
25 phone and I picked up a message from Janice, my
1 sister-in-law, shortly before 10 o'clock and the message
2 that she left was to say that there was going to be
3 a press release and that I might hear something about my
4 brother having disappeared, but I knew that already so
5 I was not too concerned.
6 I returned to my office between the next two
7 operations, which would have been some time after
8 10 o'clock, and there was a message from my husband
9 asking me to ring home. I initially thought he was just
10 going to give me the same information, that the press
11 would by now know. In fact when I rang him he told me
12 that the police had found my brother's body and that it
13 looked as though he had committed suicide.
14 I decided that I was not going to be able to stay at
15 work, so I decided that I should come home at that
17 Q. Mrs Pape is there anything else you would like to the
18 say to the Inquiry?
19 A. Can I just check some notes that I made?
20 LORD HUTTON: Yes, certainly.
21 A. (Pause). Yes. The only other thing that we have not
22 covered, although I know other people have mentioned it,
23 was my brother's attitude to the second Gulf War.
24 Certainly I myself, and my husband, and I know from
25 conversations my younger brother, we were not convinced
1 of the need for war now. We could not understand: why
2 now? Why not last year? Why not next year? Why now?
3 And in discussions that we have had since my brother
4 died we have realised that each of us changed our minds
5 before the war itself actually happened and that we
6 attributed our change in mind to individual
7 conversations that we had with my brother.
8 I actually thought he would agree with me that there
9 was no new indication for war. I knew that he felt that
10 the sanctions had hurt the Iraqi people very hard but
11 had not made that much difference to Iraq's ability to
12 produce weapons of mass destruction, and I was very
13 surprised when he was absolutely and utterly convinced
14 that there was almost certainly no solution, other than
15 a regime change, which was unlikely to happen
16 peacefully, and regrettably would require military
17 action to enforce it. He explained it in detail that
18 I probably did not understand at the time, in a very
19 convincing way, and made me realise that the war was not
20 only inevitable but that it was entirely justified in
21 the light of what the Iraqi regime could produce in the
23 I know my husband, when we were talking about this,
24 said that he had said to my brother: oh, but surely if
25 they just relax a bit and give Saddam Hussein enough
1 rope, he will hang himself. My brother said: that is
2 absolutely what we cannot do because if you had any idea
3 of the consequence of what he might do if we take our
4 eye off the situation, it would affect many many people,
5 civilians quite likely, and it would just be
6 unacceptable to allow that to happen.
7 I know in conversations he had with my younger
8 brother who visited at the end of January that he
9 likewise was changed from being a complete sceptic about
10 the war into somebody who understood the reasons for it.
11 He did not reveal any secret information to us. I do
12 not remember any vast detail but he was utterly
13 convincing in the fact that we had to deal with this
14 situation; we could not allow the situation to go on and
15 then to be wise after the event.
16 MR KNOX: And I take it these conversations were before the
17 second Gulf War?
18 A. They were, yes, because my last conversation with him
19 was at the wedding in February. The war began in March.
20 I suspect it was not at that weekend. I think this was
21 a telephone conversation I had earlier. My husband
22 believes it is a telephone conversation he had had -- my
23 brother had rung once and I was not in and they had
24 spoken for a few minutes. But he had absolutely no
25 doubt at all that unless there was a complete change of
1 heart in Iraq or a change of regime, that they would
2 have to be forcibly disarmed of their potential to
3 produce weapons of mass destruction.
4 MR KNOX: Thank you very much.
5 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed Mrs Pape.
6 A. Thank you.
7 MR DINGEMANS: My Lord, Rachel Kelly we are having through
8 video link. I understand my Lord that there may be
9 a need for a couple of minutes.
10 LORD HUTTON: Yes, certainly. Would you like me to rise?
11 MR DINGEMANS: If your Lordship would.
12 (12.38 pm)
13 (Short Break)
14 (12.40 pm)
15 MS RACHEL ANHARAD KELLY (called)
16 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
17 MR DINGEMANS: Rachel we can see a picture of you. I hope
18 you can see me.
19 A. Yes I can.
20 LORD HUTTON: Rachel, I understand you would like to have
21 a break at lunchtime. Is that what you would like to
23 A. If I may.
24 LORD HUTTON: Very well. Certainly.
25 MR DINGEMANS: Can you hear me all right?
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 Q. Can you tell his Lordship your name?
3 A. Yes, my name is Rachel Anharad Kelly.
4 Q. What is your occupation?
5 A. I work for the RSPB.
6 Q. We have heard from your mother this morning. She has
7 given us some of the background. Can I ask you to look
8 at a diary entry for 2002? Before I ask you to look at
9 that, can you just tell me where you found the diary?
10 A. Yes. The diary was in my father's study --
11 Q. It is FAM/1/1. If we look at the entry for February,
12 what does it tell us?
13 A. It mentions specifically a meeting with David Broucher
14 on 18th February 2002, and the interesting thing with my
15 father's diaries is he tended to write entries in them
16 after the event and this would have been a meeting that
17 he actually had because it is in his diary.
18 Q. It does not look like we have been able to get the diary
19 on the screen, but if I look at the diary that I have in
20 front of me, it says:
21 "Monday 18th February 2002, 9.30, David Broucher,
22 US mis."
23 A. Yes, US mission.
24 Q. It gives details of his flights into Geneva the day
1 A. Yes, the day before.
2 Q. And out of Geneva on 20th February; is that right?
3 A. Yes, that is correct, on the 20th.
4 Q. And that is February 2002?
5 A. It is a year earlier than the date that David Broucher
6 gave as being this year, the conversation he had with my
8 Q. And I think Mr Broucher told us he had only had one
9 meeting with your father.
10 A. Yes, that is what made me look at it. I actually
11 thought that was the case.
12 Q. A bit about your father's diary keeping.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did he make entries into his diary?
15 A. He tended to put in a few things in advance. He
16 actually loved sporting fixtures, he was a keen fan of
17 rugby and the athletics, so they were put in in advance,
18 but otherwise with work commitments he tended to put
19 them in after the event, and I recognise two entries
20 there, one in May where he went out to Kuwait and he
21 actually came back earlier than planned and the two
22 flight numbers on his outward bound trip and return trip
23 are correctly entered.
24 Q. Can I take you to another entry? I am pretty sure we
25 will get this one. This is TVP/3/136. If we scroll
1 down to 19th and 20th May, Rachel, what were you telling
2 us about that?
3 A. That particular trip Dad was going out to Kuwait and he
4 was intending to visit Qatar and Baghdad I believe and
5 he should have been out there for longer than that
6 actually indicates. He actually had to return the next
7 day. He was deported from Kuwait. That entry there
8 shows he did write in the correct date he travelled back
9 and shows he entered it after the event.
10 Q. Because they are accurate rather than what he had
11 planned to do?
12 A. Because they are accurate, yes.
13 Q. There is another reference I think you wanted to give
15 A. Yes, there was another one in July. My father initially
16 was booked in if you like to do both Committees on the
17 same day, 15th July.
18 Q. Can I just give the reference for that, Rachel; that is
19 TVP/3/138. Sorry, I interrupted you.
20 A. He actually entered the two meetings separately. He
21 entered the Foreign Affairs Committee on the Tuesday,
22 which was correct, and he had the Intelligence and
23 Security Committee entered on the Wednesday. As we
24 know, it changed on that Tuesday, so it is quite clear
25 to me there is not one entry crossed out at 12 o'clock
1 on the Tuesday. It is written on the Wednesday. So Dad
2 would have entered that probably on the Thursday morning
3 or perhaps on the Wednesday night when he returned home.
4 Q. Finally just to show the diary entry for February 2003.
5 You will remember Mr Broucher thought the meeting was in
6 February 2003. That is 133. Does the 2003 diary show
7 any entry for Mr Broucher in 2003?
8 A. No, and in fact it does not record any trip to Geneva
9 either. The only trip I have noticed is the February
10 trip the previous year.
11 Q. The only time that you have noticed from these diaries
12 that he had been to Geneva?
13 A. Yes, I think (inaudible).
14 Q. In fact after Ellen's wedding where did he go?
15 A. He actually shared a taxi with Ellen and her husband to
16 the airport on the way to their honeymoon and he went
17 off I believe to New York the very next day.
18 Q. If we look at the 23rd February entry we can see
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Those are his diaries. Did you know much about your
22 father's work?
23 A. Yes, a little. We would spend a lot of time together,
24 we were very close, and he would tell me where he was
25 off to, where his trips were planned, and when we went
1 for walks I would just get little bits about what he was
2 up to and where he was. Not a lot in detail perhaps.
3 Q. We have heard about the wedding in February. How was
4 your father at the wedding?
5 A. He was in his element. He had a wonderful day. He
6 really thoroughly enjoyed it. He was very proud and he
7 was actually quite moved and we had just a fantastic
8 family occasion on that day.
9 Q. Had you discussed retirement at all with your father at
10 this stage?
11 A. Yes, we often talked about his retirement. He was
12 looking forward to retiring. Earlier this year, at the
13 very beginning of the year, he was -- just before and
14 after the war and perhaps until mid May he was thinking
15 of retiring and working for an extra year because he
16 recognised that there was a lot happening to do with
17 Iraq, he thought he might be needed, and he was actually
18 planning on staying an extra year until he was 61 so
19 that he could be available if needed for things
20 happening in Iraq.
21 Q. And how was he in May time?
22 A. In May he was actually quite happy. It was his birthday
23 on 14th May and I had gone over to see him as normal, we
24 had gone for our usual walk. There was a foal that we
25 were walking down to visit very regularly, we had been
1 the day before, and Dad was really thrilled that he had
2 been one of the first to see it.
3 Q. And did you walk regularly with your father?
4 A. Yes, I did. I always used to go on a Saturday for lunch
5 with Mum and Dad, and Dad and I would generally go for
6 a walk afterwards. That was a regular walk that we
7 would go for.
8 Q. I think we heard from your mother this morning there was
9 a difference between normal walks and long walks, and
10 these were long walks, were they?
11 A. Yes, they would be long walks if we had the time, or
12 they might just be a shorter walk down to see how the
13 foal was. Normally if my sister was around with her dog
14 it would be for a longer walk then.
15 Q. On 19th May we have heard about your father's visit to
16 Kuwait --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- and the fact that he came back very shortly having
19 arrived in Kuwait. How was he after that?
20 A. The first I knew was Dad flew to Kuwait from Heathrow
21 Airport and on departure he discovered his visa was
22 incorrect but he was still allowed to board the plane.
23 When he arrived into Kuwait he was refused entry and
24 physically searched, I believe he was physically
25 restrained -- they are not particularly dignified
1 there -- and he was then kept overnight in a hotel and
2 his phone was taken from him. He was then deported back
3 to the UK. Dad phoned me at work to ask me to organise
4 a taxi for him. I could see he sounded quite upset by
6 When he got home I could just see he felt so let
7 down and embarrassed by it because it was a key time for
8 him to go out there and he was very keen to go out
9 there, and he felt left out at a very important time for
11 Q. When did you next see your father after he had arrived
12 back from Kuwait?
13 A. I saw him on the following Saturday the 24th. Mum was
14 away and I had lunch as normal and we talked about work
15 commitments and the garden.
16 Q. And how was he generally at this time? Was he looking
18 A. Yes, he was. He was obviously getting older, he
19 recognised himself he was getting closer to 60, but he
20 still seemed quite cheerful, looking forward to things
21 later on in the year with myself, another family
22 occasion that was coming up, and just generally seemed
23 to be happy but busy but just sort of tired because he
24 was working hard.
25 Q. Did you see your father again in May?
1 A. Yes, he was away then in late May from the 26th to 29th
2 I think in New York; and on the 31st May, it was
3 Saturday again, I met up with him and went for another
4 walk, a little bit further than we planned but we
5 enjoyed the walk. Dad seemed very relaxed. We just
6 thoroughly enjoyed spending the time together. It
7 seemed all very usual.
8 Q. We have heard that in early June your father went, in
9 fact, to Iraq. Were you aware of that?
10 A. Yes, I was. We were actually both out of the country at
11 the same time and I was aware that Dad was away.
12 Q. And did you speak to him before he went away about the
14 A. No, I spoke to him when he got back from his trip.
15 Again, I went to see him on that Saturday after and he
16 had got his photographs back by that time and he took
17 great pleasure in showing me his photographs and showing
18 me the conditions he had experienced out there.
19 He did tell me quite a lot about how much Iraq had
20 changed. Obviously he had not been out there since 1998
21 and although he had followed the progress of the war the
22 actual reality of going to Iraq made quite an impact on
23 him, and he was disappointed he did not see any actual
24 real Iraqis, as he put it. He was very fond of the
25 Iraqi people and he was actually -- all the personnel
1 there had to stay on the airfield, I think, for security
3 Q. And when was that, that you had seen him after his
5 A. I saw him, I believe, on 14th June.
6 Q. And healthwise how was he feeling and looking?
7 A. I did not see him that long. Mum and I were out all day
8 but I did dash home specifically to see Dad because it
9 was Father's Day the next day and I wanted to see him
10 and give him a small present. But he seemed fine,
11 obviously full of plans for his next trip and where he
12 was going.
13 Q. We have heard a bit about the contacts your father had
14 with the press. Were you aware of any of these
16 A. Yes, I knew a few names that he would speak to
17 regularly, for example Nick Rufford, obviously
18 Tom Mangold, I was aware of the work he had done with
19 him. I had heard of Julie Flint.
20 Q. How had you heard these names?
21 A. In general conversation really. Certainly Tom Mangold,
22 as a family we were all aware of him. I was aware that
23 when he had been out to (inaudible) he had lunch with
24 Julie Flint --
25 Q. Your father had told you about this?
1 A. Yes, he would just mentioned it in passing. He often
2 told me. I would actually book to go out myself and we
3 would sometimes share where we had both been and
4 restaurants we had been to, and he just commented he had
5 been to lunch with this lady who I knew to be
6 a journalist.
7 Q. Had your father mentioned any articles by any
8 journalists at all?
9 A. No, not at all. He generally did not tell me that much
10 in detail. The only article I do recall him mentioning,
11 which was one that upset him slightly, was back in
12 April. It was an article written by Nick Rufford and
13 I was aware that Dad, because he is a civil servant,
14 following September 11th all his interviews were
15 non-attributable and Nick Rufford had actually named Dad
16 in an article and Dad was really quite frustrated that
17 he had done so.
18 Q. Right. Had you ever heard the name Andrew Gilligan?
19 A. Not at all. He did not ever mention it to me, no.
20 Q. I think on 15th June your father goes back to New York?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And returns on about 22nd June?
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. Did you speak to him while he was in New York?
25 A. Not while he was in New York, no. I spoke to him when
1 he got back and I visited him at home. It was about
2 from this time that I became conscious of a difference
3 in him. He seemed to really need me as a daughter. We
4 would always talk and he would always ask me will I see
5 you at the weekend. His words did not change but there
6 was a need in him on an emotional level perhaps to see
7 more of me. He would just ask me was he going to see me
8 at the weekend, and I just very much helped him from
9 this time.
10 Q. And this is towards the end of June?
11 A. Yes, late June.
12 Q. We know that your father, in fact, wrote a letter on
13 30th June to Dr Wells.
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Did he speak to you about that?
16 A. No, he did not. Mum told me after the event -- after
17 Dad's death, in fact. I saw Dad very briefly on
18 28th June. I actually was working away so I could not
19 go and visit him as normal. On my way home my car broke
20 down and I phoned Dad to say help, and I was eventually
21 towed to a garage in Southmore. I just popped in to see
22 Mum and Dad. Normally Dad would drop off the keys to
23 the garage the next day but on this occasion he said he
24 could not do that on the Monday morning of the 30th
25 because I think he might have had a meeting somewhere.
1 So Mum agreed that she would kindly do it for me.
2 I just remember being conscious that he did not
3 quite seem himself. He seemed very quiet, quite
4 concerned about me because I had had a difficult evening
5 trying to get the car home, but he also just seemed
6 quiet, and in the event he did actually take the keys to
7 the garage for me, which I was a little bit surprised by
8 just because I had assumed Mum was going to do it.
9 Q. There was nothing he said to you expressly about that?
10 A. No, I literally saw him for half an hour because it was
11 quite late by the time I got home, it was sort of 9 or
12 9.30 and I had not eaten, so I was being picked up and
13 I was dashing home to sort myself out at home, so I only
14 saw him for about 20 minutes and we did not have our
15 normal walk or anything like that.
16 Q. Your father's holiday arrangements, do you know when he
17 had last had a holiday?
18 A. It was some time -- in actual fact the following week we
19 did have a conversation about his holiday.
20 Q. Your conversation, was that face to face?
21 A. It was not. I was working away from home and Dad phoned
22 me on my mobile and we had a long conversation; and Dad
23 just told me he was extremely tired and he did not seem
24 himself at all really and I could only take what he was
25 saying at face value. He did not tell me about what was
1 happening at work at all but he just said he had not had
2 any holiday since August the previous year when he had
3 had a holiday with a friend who had come over from
4 abroad, and it actually was quite a busy time for him
5 anyway, but he said he felt so tired and I expressed my
6 concern for his health and I said any job is just not
7 worth losing your health for. What if he had a heart
9 Dad was actually very frank with me, which was quite
10 unusual. I know if he had a sore throat or a cold he
11 would talk to me about that but he said he felt it was
12 very much his duty to work hard, be available. I just
13 said: well, look, you really need to plan in some
14 holiday time. He agreed but felt he was too busy and
15 was needed in Iraq. He had a really strong sense of
17 We talked again about his retirement and he actually
18 had changed his mind about staying on for a further year
19 because he felt so tired, he just seemed exhausted. He
20 was now seriously considering retiring the following
21 May, which would be the earliest opportunity that he
23 Q. That would have been May 2004?
24 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes. Again there was an
25 underlying need in his voice but I could only take
1 things at face value and I did not understand the work
2 situation he was in, which I since learned the next day
3 he was facing the first interview he had with his
5 Q. Did you know about that at the time?
6 A. Not at all, no.
7 Q. He did not speak about that expressly?
8 A. No. No, he did not. He would not have shared that sort
9 of thing with me.
10 Q. When was that telephone conversation, the long
12 A. That was on the Thursday evening, 3rd July.
13 Q. Did you speak to your father or see your father again
14 that week?
15 A. I did. I saw him on the Saturday. Dad had kindly
16 collected my car for me I think on the 4th actually and
17 he arranged to meet me in Oxford and take me to my home.
18 He was actually coming into Oxford himself to meet
19 either a friend or colleague at one of the colleges. We
20 then arranged to meet in Oxford afterwards and he would
21 then take me home.
22 Q. How did he seem on the Saturday?
23 A. I must admit it was the first day when I became
24 extremely concerned about Dad. I met him afterwards and
25 we first -- we had seen Bill Clinton walking around
1 Oxford so we initially started to talk about him. On
2 our way back he said he had actually quite a good
3 meeting, he had thoroughly enjoyed walking round one of
4 the university parks. He then just seemed to withdraw.
5 He was very, very quiet. He seemed to be under immense
6 pressure. All I could assume was that it was just
7 something serious at work to do with Iraq. I did not
8 for one minute imagine he was in the situation he was
9 actually in. I just tried to distract him and talked
10 about my life, my work.
11 We went home and we had lunch. Again he was
12 a little bit quiet. We then went for another walk and
13 to begin with I think he was telling me about Bury St
14 Edmunds, he had met someone who had been and was quite
15 positive about it. He said it is a nice little town.
16 And then we went for a walk. But on the way back -- Dad
17 had been quite cheerful with me and quite normal and was
18 interested in what I was up to. On the way back he then
19 became quite quiet and I remember a few days earlier
20 I had seen Alastair Campbell talking to Jon Snow on the
21 Channel 4 News.
22 Q. That was I think 27th June, when he had gone to the
24 A. Was it? It certainly would have been something like
25 that. It would have been a few days earlier.
1 Q. Did you mention that to your father?
2 A. I did. On our way back I asked him if the situation in
3 the media about Alastair Campbell was affecting him and
4 his reaction alarmed me greatly. It was not that he
5 jumped, but I felt that -- he said "no" and he added
6 "not really" and I felt that I had intruded and he was
7 very quiet, very pale and he just seemed to have the
8 world's pressures on his shoulders. He seemed under
9 severe stress. I did not want to cause him distress so
10 I again tried to distract him.
11 Q. And talked about other things?
12 A. And talked about other things. I remember when I got
13 back home to Oxford, to David, I expressed my concern.
14 I was just so alarmed by it and I went back home, and
15 I almost felt I was being melodramatic. I was sitting
16 on the sofa saying I am so concerned about Dad. I just
17 really did not know what to do to help him other than
18 just to be there for him if he needed me.
19 Q. You have mentioned David. Can you just tell us briefly
20 who David is?
21 A. David is my fiance, yes.
22 MR DINGEMANS: Thank you.
23 Rachel, we have now come to the normal break.
24 A. Okay.
25 MR DINGEMANS: Are you happy to stop now?
1 A. Yes, I can fit in with you.
2 LORD HUTTON: Would you like to go on for 10 or 15 minutes?
3 It is just whatever is most convenient for you.
4 A. I would be happy to continue if that is convenient, yes.
5 LORD HUTTON: I wonder if it would be helpful for you if we
6 went on perhaps for another 10 or 15 minutes.
7 Mr Dingemans, do you think it is a convenient time?
8 MR DINGEMANS: Yes, that is fine.
9 Rachel, as you know I think we have a video link
10 coming in at 2 o'clock from Roger Avery who I think you
11 know. Who is Roger Avery?
12 A. Roger is a very close friend of the family. He has
13 known my father since his university days.
14 Q. I am sorry we will interrupt you at 2 o'clock. I will
15 take you on for another 10 minutes, if I may.
16 A. Okay, yes.
17 Q. I think we were on Saturday 5th July. Your father left
18 and went home, did he?
19 A. We were going to go to Oxford and we had then gone home
20 for lunch and we then had the walk. It was on our way
21 home from the walk that I asked him about
22 Alastair Campbell.
23 Q. Then did you see him on the Sunday, which would have
24 been the 6th?
25 A. No, I did not. I had other things happening on that day
1 and I did not actually see him.
2 Q. When did you next see or speak to your father?
3 A. The next time I spoke to him would have been -- actually
4 I remember trying to speak to him on 7th July. I was
5 with Ellen my sister and we were both keen to speak to
6 him and I remember leaving it until 9.30 in the evening.
7 He was not back so we were not able to speak to him.
8 I probably would have spoken to him on the 8th but
9 I cannot remember the conversation.
10 Q. We know your father went on the 7th and 8th July to
11 RAF Honnington, which is over East Anglia way. Did you
12 know he was going to do that?
13 A. No, I did not. I was probably conscious that he might
14 have said he was off having meetings, but I did not know
15 anything at all about those, no.
16 Q. You did not know where. So did you speak to him on
17 8th July, do you think?
18 A. I probably did. I generally spoke to Dad every day. We
19 were very close and we always did speak if he was
20 around, if he was in the country. I think that the next
21 time I would have spoken to him would have been the
22 Thursday. On the Wednesday Mum phoned to say when they
23 were leaving for Cornwall.
24 Q. That was on Wednesday 9th July?
25 A. That is right, yes.
1 Q. Your mother phoned you, what did she say?
2 A. She said they were leaving. They were travelling in the
3 car, they had just left home. She sounded quite
4 distressed. Dad was driving and she told me that Dad
5 was to be named as the source.
6 Q. The source for what?
7 A. For Andrew Gilligan's story and the report.
8 Q. And how did your mother sound?
9 A. She sounded very upset, very distressed. More because
10 I think it was more adrenalin, they had had to pack and
11 put their things together in minutes and then they had
12 had to leave because I think Nick Rufford had been and
13 the MoD press office had called to say they really
14 should leave because there were a lot of press on their
16 Q. Did you speak to your father that evening?
17 A. I did not because he was driving.
18 Q. And did you make any sort of domestic arrangements with
19 your mother?
20 A. Yes, I did. I promised that I would look after their
21 cats and their house for them whilst they were away.
22 They did not think they would be away for that long,
23 they very much hoped the media interest would subside
24 quickly. They thought they might be away for a couple
25 of days. I did actually speak to them several times on
1 their way down to Weston-Super-Mare.
2 Q. Which is where they stayed that evening.
3 A. Overnight, yes. I also alerted my sisters to the
4 situation too.
5 Q. And did you speak on the 10th July, which is the
6 Thursday, to your father?
7 A. Yes, yes. On 10th July I spoke to them during the day
8 at work. I spoke to Dad. I remember speaking to him.
9 Dad was also absolutely exhausted. I believe he slept
10 during the afternoon. I then would have spoken to them
11 again in the evening when I was looking after their
13 Q. That was after they had got down to Cornwall?
14 A. That was, yes, they had then arrived safely there.
15 Q. Did you in fact go back to your parents' house at all?
16 A. Yes, I did. I went back on the Friday after work. When
17 I got there I knew there might be journalists there and
18 I would have to run the gauntlet of those, but when
19 I actually got there there was a journalist coming out
20 of the yard, so I did not go in that gate, I went in the
21 other gate. He accosted me as I opened the gate and
22 I ignored him and went in and parked. He then stood in
23 the gateway calling to me, asking me to help him. I am
24 afraid I ignored him because I did not want to get
25 involved with any journalists.
1 Q. Did you speak to anyone in the village about the
3 A. I did. Graham Atkins, a friend from across the road who
4 is the landlord of the pub, he came over to see me to
5 say that the journalists had been around all day, there
6 were quite a few of them, they were asking a lot of
7 questions and generally they were a pain and he said
8 they were actually harassing his staff on the way home
9 from work, asking questions about Dad. So I filled him
10 in in very general terms about the situation and just
11 said that Mum and Dad would be away for a couple of
13 Q. Did you speak to your parents at all over that weekend,
14 the 12th/13th July?
15 A. I did, yes. I spoke with them on the Friday evening.
16 I just mentioned the journalists, I did not give them
17 details. I know Mum then phoned the pub just to find
18 out the situation later on. Then the next day, on the
19 Saturday, Dad phoned me quite early at 8.30 and he said
20 that he had phoned Steve Ward who was the landlord of
21 the pub at the other end of the village.
22 Q. What is that pub called?
23 A. That is the Hind's Head, that was Dad's local pub where
24 he had friends and would go and play crib. Steve had
25 basically been (inaudible) the media attention, media
1 coverage and the journalist did not seem to have reached
2 that end of the village.
3 Q. So he had not been bothered?
4 A. No, Steve did not know about it at all. Dad was
5 actually suggesting he was going to come back on the
6 Sunday and he might park his car there so that nobody
7 would see his car at home and that he would then be able
8 to get some things he needed. I said actually he could
9 park his car at my house instead which is convenient for
10 the station, he could catch the train there and he was
11 very welcome to come and stay with me and I could pick
12 up some things for him, which is what I did.
13 Q. Convenient for Oxford station is that?
14 A. Yes, and I knew he would be needing to be travelling
15 into London by train.
16 Q. Did you pick up anything for your father?
17 A. Yes, I did. I got him some clothes and also he asked
18 for the infamous dossier and told me where to find it in
19 his study.
20 Q. How did he describe the dossier then?
21 A. He literally described the colour of it and where I
22 would find it.
23 Q. You use the word "infamous". Was that your term or your
25 A. No, that was Dad's term. Just the infamous dossier.
1 Q. Then you found that?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. When did you make those arrangements, was that the
4 Saturday or Sunday?
5 A. I did go back and forth to my parents' home on the
6 Saturday, just looking after the house and the cats and
7 I did actually collect the clothes on that day, I think.
8 I definitely did, yes. The next day I was working away
9 so I would not have been able to do it on the Sunday.
10 MR DINGEMANS: Which brings us to Sunday 13th and now might
11 be a convenient time. I am sorry Rachel we are going to
12 interrupt your evidence.
13 LORD HUTTON: I will sit again at 2 o'clock.
14 (1.10 pm)
15 (The short adjournment)